This @NASAHubble image shows a glittering star 10 times more massive than our Sun, located 6,500 light-years away. Bright southern hemisphere star RS Puppis is swaddled in a gossamer cocoon of reflective dust. NASA
“If it’s free, it’s advice; if you pay for it, it’s counseling; if you can use either one, it’s a miracle.” Jack Adams
Biblical Counseling and Bill Shannon
I was pleased to read Rick Pidcock’s post on Baptist News Global: The Association of Certified Biblical Counselors needs to look deeper than Bill Shannon to understand what ails them. I have long viewed myself as one of a few lone voices speaking out in the evangelical wilderness about the dangers of so-called biblical counseling. At the beginning of this post, Did Southwest Baptist University (Missouri) Deny Tenure to Behavioral Health Faculty In Order to Promote Unlicensed *Biblical Counseling?,* you can find links to several posts that I have written that express my profound dismay of the development of this counseling method usually found in the evangelical morass.
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Heath Lambert Channels Martin Luther (As If) and Writes the 95 Theses of Biblical Counseling
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Biblical Counseling: Anyone Can Do It, Sin Is the Focus, Confidentiality Is Not Guaranteed and Women Should Beware
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Another Reason to Avoid Biblical Counseling: Confidentiality Is Not Guaranteed When Sin™ Is Involved
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Pidcock’s post discussed the removal of Bill Shannon from John MacArthur’s Grace Community Church from the ACBC’s list of “approved” counselors. Do not be fooled. Their “approval” is not recognized by licensed groups. It is an internal ACBC approval that is easily met by taking a few simple courses, which I have discussed at length above. BY efficiently fulfilling their requirements, you, too, could be a suspect counselor.
However, ACBC just removed Bill Shannon from their list of approved counselors. Make sure you understand this unusual move. It means that this guy was so bad even the biblical counselors didn’t want him.
The Association of Certified Biblical Counselors has removed Bill Shannon, women’s pastor and counseling pastor at John MacArthur’s Grace Community Church, from their approved counselors list due to credible allegations of protecting abusers and harming women.
So, what did Shannon do? Quite a lot, it seems.
The accusations against Shannon include:
- Instructing a woman to cosign a $50,000 loan for her husband without knowing what it was for.
- Refusing to believe the woman’s claim of her husband’s adultery despite her presenting credible evidence.
- Reprimanding the woman for attempting to remove her husband’s parental authority by wanting to call the police after he stuffed their children’s mouths with tissues to a degree that hindered their breathing.
- Refusing to assist the woman after her husband left her to live in a home she didn’t know he had.
- Threatening church discipline on the woman after she filed for divorce.
In addition to these accusations, another GCC woman claimed in February that MacArthur and GCC elders publicly disciplined her due to her decision not to reconcile with her husband, who eventually was convicted of child molestation and abuse.
That lastconcern can be found in Julie Roys’ incredible post EXCLUSIVE: Woman Says John MacArthur’s Church Taught Her to Stay With Abusive Husband.
John MacArthur’s Grace Community Church is still an “approved” counseling training institution. Good night!
Pidcock did an excellent review of the theology of authority and submission in MacArthurville. Sadly, it means that men have the authority, and it is a woman’s call to submit to that authority, which is vested in all men and not in women. The elder board at this church is the “highest authority” since they speak only to God. There is an old saying in Massachusetts about the two most powerful families 100 years ago. “In Boston, the home of baked beans and scrod, the Canpts talk to the Lodges, and the Lodges talk only to God.” Replace the Lodges with the elder board, and you will get the idea.
A woman, whether she is married or single, must recognize the fact that in general, as a woman, she must have a spirit of submission to all men.”
…According to GCC’s theology, the entire universe reveals their elder board is at the height of power, accountable to no one other than God, as interpreted by them.
The elders are so darned powerful that they cannot be questioned.
If a woman at GCC gets harmed by the men in GCC’s hierarchy, she has no recourse. According to MacArthur, “When someone comes to bring a formal public accusation against an elder or a pastor, we are not to listen to that. We are not to entertain that. We are not to investigate that.”
They act like the royal family who live by the mandate “never explain.” This means insiders or outsiders can never question them. MacArthur has established a modern-day equivalent of a royal priesthood, and they only talk to God. This is deeply disturbing and does not appear to have its foundation in Scripture. I would love to see if someone might contradict me.
This echoes GCC’s response to Cho’s allegations in February, where they wrote: “Grace Church’s elders do not publicly discuss details arising from counseling and discipline cases — especially on social media.”
Then they added, “Nor do we litigate disputes about such matters in online forums. Grace Church deals with accusations personally and privately in accordance with biblical principles. We do not respond to attacks, lies, misrepresentations and anonymous accusations.”
The ACBC leaders are uneducated, a point I have made for years.
The ACBC claims to be an academic, research-based institution. In addition to publishing academic essays, they also have developed relationships with fundamentalist schools like Bob Jones Seminary and Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.
“Despite their veneer of academia, their leaders are largely uneducated outside the world of conservative evangelical theology.”
But despite their veneer of academia, their leaders are largely uneducated outside the world of conservative evangelical theology. Heath Lambert, pastor of First Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Fla., and considered “arguably the most important person in bringing ACBC to the fore and, especially, in tying it to SBTS,” doesn’t have any medical or psychological training at all. Instead, all his training has been theology degrees from Gordon College and Southern Seminary.
They believe that secular psychologists are trained in beliefs that are outside the faith.
My husband and I belong to a group that is made up of Christian doctors, many of whom are psychiatrists. According to the ACBC, one should avoid them like the plague. The members of the ACBC have to put their hands over their eyes and ears to avoid dealing with this issue. Also, all truth is God’s truth, even if it is the truth discovered and used by mental health professionals.
Their membership covenant claims: “We deny that the findings of secular psychology make any essential contribution to biblical counseling. God’s goodness allows that secular psychology may provide accurate research and make observations that are helpful in understanding counseling issues. Because unbelievers suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness, the efforts of secular psychology at interpreting these observations lead to misunderstanding. Because their observations are distorted by a secular apprehension of life, their efforts at counseling ministry will be in competition with biblical counseling. They cannot be integrated with the faith once for all delivered to the saints.”
They have a problem stating that they refer their clients to medical doctors.
I am grateful that he quoted from one of my posts.
Of course, they try to cover their tracks by saying medical questions should be asked of a medical doctor. But as Dee Parsons of The Wartburg Watch asks: “How do they know what is and is not a medical problem? How do they even know how to ask the question? Even more difficult, how do they know if the physician is practicing *biblical counseling malpractice* by diagnosing something that is a *no-no* in ACBC’s rather bizarre spiritual world? … How do they know the difference between real postpartum depression which has a physiological component, postpartum psychosis which is an emergency, and simple * baby blues?* Then, let’s say the consulted (if they had enough knowledge to do so which they don’t) OB/GYN has concerns, refers the patient to psychiatry to figure out what meds might work for a rapidly developing psychosis and the patient returns with meds and follow-up with a trained psychiatrist? Does the ill-trained counselor tell the patient to stop the meds, ignore psychiatry and just *buck up?*”
…Psychiatrists are trained through years of medical study with clinical experience. They might have something worth listening to. But according to the ACBC, they must be ignored due to being unbelievers who “suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness.”
In contrast, ACBC counselors such as Brad Brandt, pastor of Wheelersburg Baptist Church, think they’re qualified to counsel the most vulnerable people among us because he took a “12-week course in biblical counseling” and then “went through the rigorous yet valuable process of becoming certified with what is now the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors.”
Did you know that this crowd believes that people with schizophrenia are not Christians?
I wrote Association of Certified Biblical Counselors and Southern Baptist Theological Seminary: People With Delusions May Be Faking It and Christians With Schizophrenia Are Probably Not Christians! Pidcock rightly covered this in his post. Here is what I said a couple of years ago.
It gets worse. Did you know that, according to ACBC, most schizophrenics are not even Christians even if they think they are?!!
And isn’t this the perfect excuse for charlatans? They claim that a person isn’t saved so they can blow off the pain and suffering that a counselee is experiencing is due to the fact that they are not Christians.The other issue is as a biblical counselor you’ve got to begin with the gospel. You really do because that’s the most loving thing that can be done, and it’s the most hopeful thing that can be done. You begin with a gospel, no matter how well you think you know the person that you’re counseling. Because the overwhelming number of schizophrenics may say that they’re Christian, but they are really not believers. God’s Word must determine their view of reality—not their voices or not what they see in their visions.
In fact, this line of reasoning is as despicable as it is unproven. Careful research in this area is sadly lacking and judgementalism is overwhelming. I have a family member who clung to the Gospel during her delusions and diagnosis. Yet, ACBC claims and SBTS supports that, even if she thought she was a Christian, she probably wasn’t. It must be nice being able to ghostwrite for the Book of Life. Here is one person who agrees with me.
At the beginning of this post, I said that I doubt that biblical counseling is biblical. It is a manmade construct designed to put Christian men, mostly white, into a position of power. It forces all women to submit to their inherent, man-ordained authority, which allows them to judge the salvation of others, including the most vulnerable among us. As I have often said, “I didn’t know that God had ghostwriters working on the Book of Life.” These guys think they are ghostwriters for God as well as a “royal” priesthood designed to rule over everybody unfortunate enough to accept counseling from them.
I helped care for a close relative who has bi-polar disorder when they were going through an episode of psychosis. This person is one of the most self-sacrificial people I know, devoted their career to helping disabled adults, and has an uncanny knack for seeing those on the margins.
They are also a professing Christian. During this particular episode of psychosis, one of the questions they asked was “Will we find Jesus here?”
For an alternative, and still Christian, viewpoint to ACBC’s view of mental illness, I’d suggest “Troubled Minds: Mental Illness and the Church’s Mission” by Amy Simpson (her mother has schizophrenia) and “Darkness is My Only Companion: A Christian Response to Mental Illness” by Kathryn Greene-McCreight (memoir by an Anglican priest about her experience living with bi-polar disorder).
IMO, the American church started going South when Christian psychology popped up in ministry. You will find more mental/emotional self-help books in your local Christian bookstore than spiritual resources.
“schizophrenics may say that they’re Christian, but they are really not believers. God’s Word must determine their view of reality—not their voices or not what they see in their visions.”
This is a quote from an ACBC article, not a paraphrase, correct?
I could say a lot about how ableist, arrogant, ignorant, and generally awful this is, but that’s all obvious.
What about this hypothesis: the biblical counseling model is threatened by the existence of actual serious mental illness, especially among Christians. It presupposes human subjectivity is bad, and the goal of faith is to escape it. It treats the Bible as a pair of magic glasses that gives true believers access to objective reality. If ACBC acknowledges Christians can experience psychosis, then they acknowledge that “correct” doctrine is not the protection against subjectivity they want it to be. That would threaten their system at a very deep level.
“At the beginning of this post, Did Southwest Baptist University (Missouri) Deny Tenure to Behavioral Health Faculty In Order to Promote Unlicensed *Biblical Counseling? …”
Southwest Baptist University (SBU) is now solidly under the control of New Calvinists. The NeoCals have a history of booting out professional psychology programs at Christian colleges they takeover in favor of nouthetic counseling, on the grounds that the former are secular and humanistic.
Professional counseling? Let the buyer beware – seriously. A lot of them are “B-S-C” [bat-s-crazy] Let the buyer beware.
I always heard it as “The Cabots speak only to the Lowells, and the Lowells speak only to God.” But there are probably several variations!
Ex-Bostonian CGC
Max,
I’m wondering, are the ‘Biblical’ counseling people charging money?
And if so, how are they getting around licensing requirements?
Freedom of religion?
There’s a series on Netflix called, “I Am a Stalker.”
Each episode details a real case with public LE/DOJ records and many interviews.
1. Who knew stalking was so dangerous? It is.
2. Every episode includes interviews with professors, lawyers, licensed social workers, etc., who are EXPERTS regarding this behavior. Highly scholarly and insightful.
3. As we watched the series, we reflected on Dee’s post about “biblical” counseling.
4. “Biblical” counseling is like “biblical” science, in that there is no such thing. Dr. John Lennox agrees. He is a Christian and an expert on non-biblical math as there is no such thing as “biblical” math.
From the OP: “They act like the royal family who live by the mandate ‘never explain.'”
True, but the unofficial royal family practice has two parts: “never complain, never explain.” Together they can add up to something like self-restraint, if a person is inclined that way.
By contrast, our churchy overlords constantly and unendingly complain.
Sorta like “Christ-centered” this and that in the NeoCal world … without Christ really being at the center. They don’t talk much about Jesus, so how can their lives and ministries be Christ-centered?! It’s more like Piper-centered.
I’m not aware of any States which license biblical counselors, only psychological counselors.
I suppose Biblical Counselors are staff positions paid by the church and that there are no fees for such service.
ACBC “certifies” rather than licensing these folks.
It’s sorta like Dee declaring that I am a certified Wartburger!
No such thing.
Rom 12, 1 Cor 12, Eph 4: there is no HS gift of counseling either.
Interestingly I just had a conversation about this with a Jewish friend of mine yesterday. We were talking about our therapists, and I went down a rabbit hole of describing the “biblical counseling” phenomena that tries to replace it (started talking about that after telling her how my old pastor kept trying to refer to my therapist as a “counselor” in an effort to wedge himself into the process)
To a Christian, that is the role of the Holy Spirit:
“The Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Intercessor, Advocate, Strengthener, Standby), the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My name [in My place, to represent Me and act on My behalf], He will teach you all things. And He will cause you to recall (will remind you of, bring to your remembrance) everything I have told you” (John 14:26 AMPC)
Licensure: In many states it is about the words. My state does NOT specify who can call themselves a counselor. The word simply is not specific enough. They do determine who can call themselves a psychiatrist, psychologist, social worker etc.
________
In my state you are free to charge people for your counseling services as long as you don’t claim to hold one of the prescribed titles.
________
I think there are truly gifted individuals with brilliant insights and natural empathy and compassion who hold no license but are tremendously helpful when they offer counsel to hurting individuals and couples. Being licensed doesn’t guarantee that your counsel is wise or helpful.
Max,
Disagree with this.
Professional counselors have studied human behavior, including deviancies which can be criminal. FBI profiling, for example.
The Holy Spirit’s Counselor role has nothing academic or studious about it.
IMHO, it is the false ideas of 1. the Bible as a book of “biblical” counseling and 2. false narratives about the HS as Counselor in a therapeutic or scholarly sense 3. Pastors that are somehow magically experts of human behavior… that lead us down this rabbit hole.
Of course, God knows everything. But over the millennia, scholars study scientifically the natural world and human behavior to navigate the world and human issues.
Of course, as Christians, God guides us in our work. However, that doesn’t mean that we neglect to do our homework, or seek the scholarly work and experience of others.
Roy Hazelwood was both a Christian AND a published, experienced expert in the field of behavioral science. He did his homework.
People who professionally work with people are required to have regular professional development to maintain their licensure. The latest studies and discoveries about human behavior make the professionals better at what they do. These are not Bible studies, which is a different type of study or development, as in spiritual formation.
Pastors could avail themselves of this type of professional development, although if pastors will just stay in their lane, it would not even be necessary. Teach the Bible would be appropriate.
We’ve had Christians who are scientists at our church sharing their expertise. It doesn’t conflict with the Bible but their scholarly work complements the Bible. Our pastors don’t have these skills, Knowledge, and experiences.
Just two words: Diane Langberg
Go to her website and read her bio. THAT is how a Christian ‘counsels’
One thing I have noticed about so-called “Biblical” counseling over the years is that it is very superficially “biblical.” It misses so much of the full counsel of God about the human condition by forcing everything into a sin-confess-repent-forgive model. Jesus did not do that. The prophets did not do that. The Psalms do not do that. etc.
The church will fully embrace anything that comes out of the secular business model but refuse to take any insights at all from either psychiatry or psychology.
The term “Christian counseling” in contrast may integrate both knowledge and insights from secular study with Christian faith. Individuals practicing Christian counseling may be licensed by the state based on their secular qualifications. But as Dee said, “Buyer beware.” Research any counselor, therapist, etc. and used your discernment throughout.
Another “beware” aspect of nouthetic counseling is that a particular group’s theology is integrated into the counseling. In addition to being ministered to, the counselee becomes indoctrinated to the counselor’s theology. I have no doubt that the New Calvinists would do this.
I did a superficial search for ABC approved “counselors” and didn’t see any who had dual credentials that would enable them to be licensed. Of course, if they are pure “biblical” counselors, they would have to discard anything they had learned in the process of being able to be licensed. However, I am pretty sure that in our area, there are licensed counselors who primarily use a “biblical counseling” (ie diagnosing the client’s sin problem) model who may also use some secular insights, like referring schizophrenics to psychiatrists. But they couldn’t be accredited “biblical counselors.”
In addition to church staff who may do biblical counseling as part of their paid employment, there are many lay people who get certified as “biblical counselors.” If they charged money, they would open themselves up to lawsuits if a client followed their counsel with damaging consequences.
Exactly. They don’t need to be performers, politicians, or psychologists …just preach the Gospel and shepherd the flock in Jesus’ name.
Agreed. Nor should we neglect to prayerfully seek Jesus by the Holy Spirit, who is the “Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6-7). I was young and now am old … I have spent many a night agonizing over situations and decisions, only to find peace through prayer as I experienced His guiding hand for the days ahead.
Agreed. Praise God for those folks scattered through the Body of Christ. They need neither title or certificate to minister to others in Jesus’ name.
“….. But according to the ACBC, they must be ignored due to being unbelievers who “suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness.”
This is just plain silly!
I really don’t understand why they don’t apply the same rules and condemnations towards secular heart surgeons, secular pharmacies, secular prenatal care and maternity wards…… secular optometrists ….secular auto mechanics…… secular grocery stores……
I would think these people would be too holy to have granddaddy undergo a heart bypass op with with secular surgeon or let a secular cashier ring up their Thanksgiving turkeys! All I can figure is it is easier (or more “glamorous”) for them to be a fake therapists than to operate a cash register. I’ll betcha the ladies at the front desk at my dentist’s office have had a lot more professional training than these ACBC yahoos! (Ewww. I feel like I’ve just insulted the scheduling ladies and the records clerks at the dentist’s office!)
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
Brava. Well-stated.
Every one of these “pastors” or religious leaders that insist on limiting their church members to their “biblical” counseling should likewise be limited to “biblical” care for their medical needs.
Quackery. Quack. Quack. Quack.
‘Spose we could walk for transportation like Jesus, the “biblical” way.
Robes and sandals, “biblical” fashion.
And this a fairly recent thing (in my opinion).
Not much more than 50 years.
“…Bill Shannon, women’s pastor and counseling pastor at John MacArthur’s Grace Community Church…”
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he’s the women’s pastor… a man is the women’s pastor…
guess i can stop holding back from dishing out the s word, then. stupid is as stupid does.
Twisted.
This must fall under the category of “real men” – who must run everything, including subjugating women.
This is a twisted interpretation of Genesis 1.28:
“And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.”
God said take dominion over the Earth and animals, NOT over other people.
What religion does to some people.
Ahhh … but you must look at that as the “beauty of complementarity”!
The New Calvinists get around that in my area by calling a woman in that pastoral role “Director” or “Minister” … but never “Pastor”!
Workarounds.
Who would trust a religion or church or church leader that does this?
counseling?
for a contemplative, constructing a bucket list, one’s thoughts tend towards the deep and the ancient, but for some of us, we ‘travel’, even if it can only be a mental journey, but still to PLACES remembered, longed-for, envisioned . . . there to BE, for a ‘while’, at peace where no words are ‘needed’ anymore
In my ‘list’, I go west towards the Rockies, and travel to the high desert to spend the freezing night with the stars that are as big as one’s fist over-head – it doesn’t get any better than that, no- the ‘connection’ is felt so completely . . . .
and from there, a journey from Deerfield, MA going west on the Mohawk Trail to the little town of Charlemont where cousins Junie and Larry once owned half the mountain and my own dear cousin Jan had a log cabin retreat on the side of Hawley Rd. . . . plain, so warm, no words . . . a cup of black coffee and the ghosts of my long-dead cousins for company – we are at peace there for ‘a while’
to the southland, Virginia, west and west again past Richmond to the family’s beloved university town where Heather Heyer was murdered by the MAGA torch bearers on a strange day where evil came to town and took one of its daughters away so sadly, so sadly . . . one remembers what seemed so incongruently impossible in that lovely little city of Mr. Jefferson’s university
bucket list goal: to make it to the polls in ’24 to have a ‘voice’ that may matter even when I am no more – a ‘vote’, a ‘voice’, hope for better to come in the time ‘after’ for the sake of the very old and the very young . . . a voice of wordless hope
we shall see . . .
counseling? talking? or something better and more lastingly impactful on a soul’s journey?
?
🙂
Max,
Amen Max! And for the record, our child was injured when a licensed psychologist “trained” youth group workers in some very dangerous methods. I always recommend starting with a board certified psychiatrist, and if they recommend counselling stick with a licensed counselor recommended by your doc.
And He said it to both of ‘them,’ not just the man . . .
Oh the things you (generic you) can manufacture from the Bible!
It gets worse. Did you know that, according to ACBC, most schizophrenics are not even Christians even if they think they are?!!
I doubt that any of these people have a close family member with schizophrenia.
I wonder what they have to say about undiagnosed epilepsy… bipolar disorder … autism….. ADHD….
I have what is called myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (developed when I had a nasty viral infection that I was exposed to in a Christian private school). I wonder if they think one of their counselors can fix me? (I been on a big roll lately – for the past 10 whole months, I’ve felt better and been much more active than I have in 14 1/2 years!)
This band puts those guys where they belong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye7FKc1JQe4
What undiagnosed deviancies flourish unchecked among those who have no regard or use for mental health professionals?
LA Detective Camillo had been to a seminar where the expert had described a particular deviancy of enjoying seeing terror in a woman’s eyes. He used this knowledge in solving a case.
At the WW2 invasion, a Polish citizen remembers: “We were simply overwhelmed by their might. The sort of feeling developed that we were helpless. It was a feeling of being in a trap. There was no way out.”
How many of the Men Rule While Women Submit practitioners are thrilled at their might, and the fear or helplessness in a woman’s eyes?
Their world is dying out, and that’s a good thing!
In the meantime, here’s a good antidote for their nonsense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsCl2kXJca4
It would be interesting to do a word study of “counselor”, including how the word is used in translation in the Bible, and how to fully grasp that the Holy Spirit is our Counselor.
School counselors are highly important. As are employment counselors. Mental health counselors are essential.
There are many significant types of counselors for many wellbeing purposes.
There’s only one Holy Spirit. He is free and equally available to all.
Perhaps the Holy Spirit is the REAL biblical counselor and the rest who self-entitle, then charge for services, are just a scam. Ya think?
(The bold was done by me.)
Yay!!! 🙂 🙂 🙂
Double yay!!! for Nancy2!
Oh, but there is a “Biblical Math”:
Pi = 3, remember?
As my writing partner describes it:
“Pu the client’s head on your desk, take your biggest, heaviest Bible, and beat him into submission.”
Just like Talibani-style “Islamic Medicine”, i.e. Recite the Koran over the patient while beating him with rods to drive out the Jinn possessing him.
Probably.
Five Fast Praise-the-LOOOOOORDs, “Spending fifteen minutes each morning with The LOOOOOORD in SCRIPTURE” (actual quote), and Discerning your Secret Sin and the DEMONS! DEMONS! DEMONS! inside your Hardened Heart. [/sarc]
“Magic Glasses” like the Urim and Thummim?
researcher,
Ava Aaronson,
Thank you, and you’d better believe YAY!
Sure, Christmas stuff wore me out, but it is a normal sort of worn out. I can feel the difference.
I planted and tended flower beds this year… been involved in a few nerf fights with my daughter’s friends….
In August, I started walking again…. gradually building up from 20 minutes to 40 minutes ….. around the hayfield…….and then……. down into the woods… downhill, uphilll, always with the dogs. (There’s nothing like the woods on a beautiful, sunny autumn day, when the leaves are at peak!). This past weekend, hubby and I did an 80 minute hike down into the bluffs ..…. awesome, glorious feeling to be able to to that again! I’m hoping I am able to continue to build up endurance… Hoping that maybe, just maybe ME/CFS is a thing of the past.
Haven’t heard that one since MTV had music videos and I had a girlfriend.
AKA “He Holds the Whip! She Feels the Whip! GAWD HATH SAID!”
JUST LIKE ELRON HUBBARD AND SCIENTOLOGY!
(and for much the same reason – unwanted competition with their Faith-Based method)
Oh, but there is a “Biblical Math”:
Pi = 3, remember?
Headless Unicorn Guy,
No…. Not quite. Pi = 3.14159……. And on to 31 trillion plus decimal places (non-repeating).
Pi is not a whole number. And, it is an IRRATIONAL number!
So, biblical math …… well, maybe I gave you a couple of ideas to expand upon.
Is there a biblical chocolate merengue pi(e)??!
Good art never goes out of style.
Wouldn’t trust it, but maybe that’s just me.
Here’s one from William Blake that I like to call God inventing Pi.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/89/d1/8c/89d18ca84779edb802d66a1cc2b000f3–freemasonry-william-blake.jpg
Behavioral sciences are studied, measurable and observable, with data, like other sciences.
That type and level of “worldly” discipline may not be comfortable for everyone.
However, there are distinguished, scholarly, and reputable CHRISTIANS in the behavioral sciences. I’ve mentioned Roy Hazelwood before – he is a very fine example.
Religious leaders that don’t respect the experience, work, and expertise of people like Hazelwood, shade their own integrity and dare we say, stunt their own growth.
Remember Mao’s Cultural Revolution? He marginalized the educated because they were a threat to him, to be to assess the failure & damage done during The Great Leap Forward.
Inappropriate leaders always marginalize the educated and aware. They can’t stand the scrutiny.
We should all be trained in disciplines outside the faith. Butcher, baker, candlestick maker – or tentmaker. It’s called going out and making a living.
The fact that today’s “pastors” don’t do that, while they are forever nursed by the church with no livelihood, may be their source of discomfort with those who do.
(Strictly my opinion, but the clergy among some religious groups that are lifelong servants don’t seem so threatened. But they serve without salary, as that service is their life and work.)
they would be able to
Apparently Paul forgot to write his chapter on biblical tent making.
Some of the best real-deal pastors I ever had in my long SBC tenure were bi-vocational. They worked in jobs “outside the faith”, while still finding time to pray, prepare sermons, and minister to the needs of their congregations. They were servants of the Lord, not professional pulpiteers. They had no desire for the church to bestow power, prestige, and prosperity upon them. They loved and were loved. They preached ‘the’ Gospel and were faithful shepherds of the flock God entrusted to them until God called them home.
Sounds like your examples were similar to Paul the tent maker.
In the end, Paul very much fulfilled his God-given mission. While living his bi-vocational lifestyle.
When Peter became a disciple, did he ever go fishing again?
Guessing that pastors, theologians, and seminary gurus never bring this stuff up cuz it might cramp their style.
… Another venture into topics that religious “leaders” at large never touch. These are topics found in the Bible, the book that they supposedly love to teach. Supposedly.
These are biblical topics they dance around or avoid. Telling. Maybe if they were serious about their own discipline, biblical study, and stopped posing as behavioral experts while dissing REAL qualified behavioral experts, which they are NOT, they might be more honest about the Good Book.
Considering this post and many in this thread, it’s a good reason to avoid its influence and spend time reading elsewhere.
It’s the (Romish term) Heresy of Clericalism.
That only Anointed/Ordained Clergy and Full Time Religious (i.e. Priests, Monks, and Nuns) matter in the Eyes of God and all the rest of us are Vermin Born in Sin who only exist to Pay, Pray, and Obey our Anointed Spiritual Leaders/Betters.
Wasn’t this one of the Reformers’ big beefs about the 16th Century RCC?
That’s SECULAR.
Vain Imagining of Man NOT THE! WORD!! OF!!! GAWD!!!!
SCRIPTURE Saith “And he made a molten sea, TEN CUBITS FROM THE ONE BRIM TO THE OTHER: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and A LINE OF THIRTY CUBITS DID COMPASS IT ROUND ABOUT.” (1 Kings 7:23)
(Style, caps lock, and attitude from apologetics tracts I remember from my time in-country. I am not up to the accompanying 500-line single run-on-paragraph in Christianese format. I want to conserve my brain tissue; neurons don’t regenerate.)
“I LOVE THE POORLY EDUCATED!”
TO BE IS TO DO — Socrates
TO DO IS TO BE — Jean-Paul Sartre
DO BE DO BE DO – Frank Sinatra
— Kurt Vonnegut, 1982
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Purely personal experience, but all the nuns, priests, and brothers I’ve known both on the mission field and domestic, serve – mainly in social work, educational, and medical fields, as well as with church type duties. With no salary. They are simply carried for, while living a life of community service.
Of course, predator priests and such need to be removed. So, yes, there are issues to deal with.
(The bold was done by me.)
That. 🙂
What are we to make of military chaplains? Roman Catholic chaplains are paid about $42K-$73K per year, on the same pay scale as the Protestants. Catholic chaplains get individual pay checks, just like the Protestants. All military chaplains are officers. Congress sets officers’ salaries.
But wait, there’s more! Some military chaplains serve as paid or unpaid church pastors before and/or after their years in uniform. Some in the Guard and Reserves minister in hometown churches while serving part time in the military.
What portion of each chaplain is a hypocrite, tentmaker, and pulpiteer? Should the problem be solved by calendars, fractions, percentages?
Story problem: Is Father Pete okay because he gets no salary on mission, but Chaplain “Padre” Pete is wrong to offer Communion on a combat mission, because he receives a pay check? (Hint: they are the same man with the same vocation.)
Happy New Year, all. I’m sure we’ll settle this in 2024. 🙂
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
So glad to hear that you are doing better! May God grant you the strength to go up and down those country hills for many more years … in addition to helping your fellow Wartburgers fight church devils.
The Jesuits have known and practiced this for centuries.
Friend,
Chaplains don’t take donations. They’re not on the dole. In essence, a chaplain has an actual job. A chaplain does not work in/for a church.
It seems like in every Protestant church we’ve ever attended, there were direct relationships between the pastors and the major donors. Money is power in donor dependent churches.
I believe that’s why the 18 gifts of the HS, Rom 12, 1 Cor 12, Eph 4, are FREE. Money has nothing to do with the pastor GIFT of the HS in the Bible. Same with the other 17. If not freely supplied by the HS, why are they called GIFTS?
All these self-entitled literalists who don’t get the word GIFT … very strange, indeed.
Had no idea. Now we’ll have to look that up, too.
By the way, I believe extended family passed on an annoying cold. If y’all want to agree in prayer for healing, we’ll get out the oil. James 5.
Thx. God bless, you, too.
You might want to reread what I wrote, and also call your local military installation to ask the chaplains where all they have worked. You are apparently not troubled that they are paid in tax dollars… neither am I. 🙂
Do you really expect anything else from a Gospel of Personal Salvation and ONLY Personal Salvation?
A Gospel of Four Spiritual Laws, Roman Road, and Jack Chick tracts?
A Gospel of Say the Magic Words (and really really mean it) and wait to go to a never-ending compulsory Bible Study in the sky?
What else?
Epilepsy – DEMONS!
Bipolar – DEMONS!
Autism – DEMONS!
ADHD – DEMONS!
PTSD – DEMONS!
Burned-out light bulb – DEMONS!
(Only the last one is fictional. At least I hope it’s fictional…)
Ava Aaronson,
praying
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
“myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome”
++++++++++++
i’m very happy for you that you’re feeling better!
my 22 year-old son has fatigue issues. gets tired/sleepy throughout the day, needs to take naps.
it frustrates him greatly. he’s so ready to get on with his life and build his career (he’s preparing to graduate from college in the spring)
he eats super healthy, gets good exercise, sleeps well at night…
his thyroid was recently checked (normal range)
he’s waiting for results on ADHD/ADD evaluation (which has a fatigue element)
if this, too, proves not a culprit, do you have advice for how best to get this sorted out? primary care doctor? specialist? i’m thinking a specialist of some kind would be a more direct route…
Thank you, Nancy. Or anyone else here who has some advice.
Max,
Thx, Max. God bless you.
elastigirl,
Did your son contract Covid? “Long Covid” general symptoms include tiredness or fatigue that interferes with daily life.
Max,
no, he never got Covid. Thanks, though, Max.
elastigirl,
We forgot that my proposed support plan aged 10 fell through. I had chicken pox at 20. At 33 I had a piercing pain in the part of the back where one never gets back trouble, shingle-like spots, vomiting and sensitivity to noise. My housemates didn’t take me to hospital. The doctor said like they do, “virus”, no advice. And some people don’t have an “obvious” illness to kick this off. I had also been affected by the epidemics of the 1960s.
At 42 after a general healing service I found out I have SpLDs (evidently since infancy). It’s serendipity / providence whether you get coaching etc. I say your son is to continually explore and own his own adaptations with enthusiasm. He should read up very widely, autobiographies and first hand insights about recuperation and potentising one’s learning profile, and not try to copy “the standard people” (who have insufficient self consciousness).
Some virus “families” are in groups and depending on individuality, can to some extent increase OR decrease resistance or proneness to symptoms. This is not sensational. I’ve found it happened to me several times when things were “going round”.
Michael in UK,
thank you for sharing your thoughts and life experience, Michael.
i like what you said here:
“continually explore and own his own adaptations with enthusiasm. He should read up very widely, autobiographies and first hand insights about recuperation and potentising one’s learning profile, and not try to copy “the standard people” (who have insufficient self consciousness).”
i think we’re all unique, learning and responding in our own unique way.
i think we all put our best face forward, and are secretly bewildered or stressed or anxious or struggling in one way or another – but nobody knows, because we all mask it with “i’m doing just fine and i’m living my best life now!”
all to say, our daily moments of struggle make us just like everyone else.
Max,
They still HAVE local Christian bookstores? There aren’t any around St. Louis unless you’re Catholic.
elastigirl,
It irritates me when church people demand of me how I am every week, like a catechism I can’t learn right.
Can’t they see I’m standing on my feet (some of the time), the corners of my mouth are drooping . . .
Mostly I just wave my fingers as if “hello”, it saves mouth effort.
But to the neighbours (who haven’t got an agenda) I like to say “good enough to potter”!
I rarely ask people how they are, I wouldn’t cope to know, or maybe I was brought up to not be “in their face”. From me, empathy chokes me and I feel it but don’t “put it out for display”.
Every now and again someone asks me specifically to bear a burden. I’d also like it if people would explicitly tell me how to not bear a burden (to give me more clue of their thinking).
“SpLDs”?
Between US Govt agencies and Microsoft Documentation, all possible three- and four-letter acronyms have long since been exhausted.
Once again, the RCC demonstrates more staying power than the thousands upon thosands of One True Churches Founded by Jesus Christ in 33 AD.
What’s been described as “The donor who tithes $10,000 a month and considers the church and pastor to be his – Bought and Paid For.”