Association of Certified Biblical Counselors and Southern Baptist Theological Seminary: People With Delusions May Be Faking It and Christians With Schizophrenia Are Probably Not Christians!

Bruce McCandless -NASA

Dedicated to ACBC and SBTS: Some people say I’m unique, that there aren’t other people with schizophrenia like me. Well, there are people like me out there, but the stigma is so great that they don’t come forward. Elyn Saks


TWW posts on ACBC’

Trigger warning for those who suffer mental illness or for those who love them.

Over the past week, Julie’s story has been getting much attention and will get even more next week. The part of her story that concerned me was the obvious lack of training inherent in the ACBC system. I have been discussing this for several years now but nothing, and I mean nothing, has demonstrated it any better than Julie’s experience. Today, I want to delve into ACBC a bit more. I will finish off this post with a look at how they view schizophrenia. Let me warn those of you who have struggled with this disorder/disease or any of the other similar infirmities, this post will most likely trigger you. Not because of what I believe but because of what ACBC (Association of *Certified* Biblical Counselors) or what is taught during the counseling degree process at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Yes, this stuff is floating around the Southern Baptist crowd and it is disturbing, to say the least. I’ll show you.

Before we begin, let me reassure those of you who struggle. You will find acceptance and understanding at TWW. Yes, there will be a few *certified* biblical counselors who may try to explain their nonsense. Their views are outside the mainstream and are founded on a bunch of presuppositions of what the Bible says. I believe that they are wrong, unbiblical, and in many instances, they can be dangerous.

The history and current-day affiliations between ACBC and SBTS

If you were to consider receiving a Masters of Arts in *Biblical Counseling* (as it is called by SBTS,) you would find that the ACBC teachings are recommended during your course of study.

What you would no be told, at this point, is that the so-called *certification* by ACBC is not recognized by any professional organization outside of a particular church that may allow one to counsel or some *biblical counseling* groups that will allow you to practice without a license. But beware. Read Julie’s story listed above.

Heath Lambert is arguably the most important person in bringing ACBC to the fore and, especially, in tying it to SBTS. If one were to look at Lambert’s training, one would find that he has only received training in theological studies. He has NO medical/psychological training whatsoever.

Heath earned a bachelor of arts (B.A.) in biblical and theological studies and political science from Gordon College in 2002, a master of divinity (M.Div.) in Christian Ministry from Southern Seminary in 2005, and a doctorate (Ph.D.) in biblical counseling and systematic theology from Southern Seminary in 2009.

In 2016 he ditched his gig at ACBC, as well as his professorship at SBTS, to become a senior pastor of the rather infamous FBC Jacksonville.

ACBC rejects psychology in any form.

I have written rather extensively on ACBC’s training of counselors (*see list at top of the post.) Today I took a look at their membership covenant which clearly expresses the disdain of this group for the study of psychology. What is particularly disturbing about this statement is that they appear to lump in all of their Christian brothers and sisters, who study and practice psychology, in with unbelievers!!  There appears to be no case for Christians in this field if ACBC is to be believed.

In order to be a *certified*counselor with this group, one must affirm this entire covenant to be true.

We deny that the findings of secular psychology make any essential contribution to biblical counseling.

God’s goodness allows that secular psychology may provide accurate research and make observations that are helpful in understanding counseling issues. Because unbelievers suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness the efforts of secular psychology at interpreting these observations lead to misunderstanding. Because their observations are distorted by a secular apprehension of life their efforts at counseling ministry will be in competition with biblical counseling. They cannot be integrated with the faith once for all delivered to the saints.

In order to be a *certified*counselor with this group, one must affirm this to be true.

Medicine, the mind and ACBC

For those of you who like to read really confusing, poorly explained, and medically insufficient material when it comes to counseling problems, I have no better example than the one on the ACBC website titled Mental Illness and Medicine. Do you know why the specialty of psychiatry exists? Psychiatrists have completed and passed the boards for an MD. Then, they do one year in internal medicine or family practice residency to understand how disease manifests itself in clinical settings. Then they proceed to their 3-4 years of psychiatry residency training, sometimes adding on more years to subspecialize. Psychiatrists are trained to understand the physical, chemical, and biological. They also understand what is clearly a psychological process without any biological components. Do you see any similar rigorous training by the leaders of ACBC or SBTS seminary?

So, given this, how in the world does a person who is poorly trained in counseling (see above post on the training process for ACBC counselors) make the following decisions found under the above linked Mental Illness and Medicine?

Biblical counselors shall encourage the use of physical examinations and testing by physicians for diagnosis of medical problems, the treatment of these problems, and the relief  of symptoms, which might cause, contribute to, or complicate counseling issues.

Biblical counselors shall be committed to counseling those with medical problems, but should not attempt to practice medicine without the formal qualifications and licensing to do so. When they have questions or concerns of a medical nature they should refer their counselee to a competent medical professional for diagnosis and treatment.

How do they know what is and is not a medical problem? How do they even know how to ask the question? Even more difficult, how do they know if the physician is practicing *biblical counseling malpractice* by diagnosing something that is a *no-no* in ACBC’s rather bizarre spiritual world? I don’t think they can and I think these counselors can be quite dangerous when confronted by difficult situations. For example, how do they know the difference between real postpartum depression which has a physiological component, postpartum psychosis which is an emergency, and simple * baby blues?*  Then, let’s say the consulted (if they had enough knowledge to do so which they don’t) OB/GYN has concerns, refers the patient to psychiatry to figure out what meds might work for a rapidly developing psychosis and the patient returns with meds and followup with a trained psychiatrist? Does the ill-trained counselor tell the patient to stop the meds, ignore psychiatry and just *buck up?*

The best example comes from ACBC’s view of Biblical intervention for schizophrenia

This posting on the ACBC website on 1/19/21 was a gift to all of us. Biblical Answers for Schizophrenia: Is schizophrenia a biological or a spiritual issue?

Whenever you read a paper or posting always check to see the background of the person who is being held up as an expert.

The experts:

John Street:

John is a professor of biblical counseling at The Master’s University and Seminary, and he serves as the chairman of the Masters of Arts in Biblical Counseling program. Prior to coming to this program, he taught at Cedarville and Cornerstone Universities. John also served as a pastor for 22 years, and as a church-planter in Ohio. He completed seminary at Grand Rapids Baptist Seminary, and earned his doctoral degree from Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Currently, he is an elder at Grace Church and serves as co-pastor of the Joint Heirs fellowship group.

He has NO medical background. Remember that.

Dale Johnson:

 Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary where he graduated with a Master of Divinity in 2005. For seven years after seminary, he served as Associate Pastor of Family Life at Raiford Road Church in his hometown of Macclenny, FL. After a call from God to pursue post-graduate work, he completed the Ph.D. in Biblical Counseling from Southwestern Seminary in 2014, while serving in the Biblical Counseling Department of the Terry School of Church and Family Ministries until coming to Midwestern Seminary in January 2019.

Johnson also serves as the Executive Director of the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors,

Again, NO medical background whatsoever.

Folks, we are dealing with people who are ignorant of the medical field, making judgments on who is or who is not in need of medical attention. And that should worry you.  So, should you go to these folks when you are experiencing schizophrenic symptons? Even worse, should you go to one of their *certified* counselors in your local church who has gone through what I believe to be a substandard training program?

Take a look at what they say in this article on schizophrenia.

We’ve got to take seriously what happens in the body, and we’ve got to make sure that there are no physiological problems masquerading as a kind of spiritual problem. That’s going to be critical for a good biblical counselor to do and to check out.

Later in the segment:

The first one is we have to make sure that we are ruling out organic issues that are there. That is consistent with biblical counseling in our history.

I disagree. There is no way that a biblical counselor in the community trained by ACBC as a weekend warrior counselor is in any position to consistently spot or realize that someone has a physiological problem requiring the need of MD intervention. The problem is that they are not trained to be able to know when someone is ill. As a trained nurse I was involved in home health nursing. I was often called into situations in the home that I found confusing. It is only through the training that I received that I was able to spot the subtleties. These *certified* counselors don’t have what is needed.

Let’s look at what these biblical experts have to say about schizophrenia and compare it to medical experts. Are the Biblical experts telling us the truth?

Do psychiatrists/psychologists claim that schizophrenia is only a physical disease?

ACBC

I think we have to be very careful about professionals who want to label this only as a physical disease.

Medical experts:

Look what the NIH/NIMH has to say on the subject of Schizophrenia. The people in these institutions have far more training than Johnson and Street. Not only do they understand the potential physical causes, the need for medication but they also recognize the need for psychosocial and family intervention.

Is there a problem with the disease diagnosis?

ACBC

When you label it a disease, then you begin to believe that change is possible only through some kind of drug regimen.

Medical experts

Take alcohol use disorder (aka alcoholism.) According to the National Institute of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, a person most likely needs medication while going through withdrawal in order to prevent seizures and other issues. There are a couple of medications that are helpful in reducing the urge to drink. However, it is well known that long term counseling and psychosocial support groups are needed in the aftermath of withdrawal.

Delusions: It is in this area we begin to see the breakdown of the lack of medical training.

ACBC:

the biblical view of delusion is that it is a highly desirable false view of reality that people have allowed themselves to believe and if maintained it will eventually end in madness.

Medical experts

From the NIH-Understanding Delusions:

  • A delusion is a belief that is clearly false and that indicates an abnormality in the affected person’s content of thought. The false belief is not accounted for by the person’s cultural or religious background or his or her level of intelligence. The key feature of a delusion is the degree to which the person is convinced that the belief is true.
  • Delusions can be difficult to distinguish from overvalued ideas, which are unreasonable ideas that a person holds, but the affected person has at least some level of doubt as to its truthfulness. A person with a delusion is absolutely convinced that the delusion is real.
  • The last decade has witnessed a particular intensification of research on delusions, with cognitive neuroscience-based approaches providing increasingly useful and testable frameworks from which to construct a better understanding of how cognitive and neural systems are involved.

In fact our understanding has increased to the extent that soon:

Taking this translational approach will enhance our understanding of psychotic symptoms and may move us closer to the consilience between the biology and phenomenology of delusions.

Which of these two make more sense: ACBC or the intensive study ongoing by extensively trained medical experts?

When it gets tough to know what to do, tell the counselees that you know they’re faking their delusions!!!!

Unfortunately, when the going gets tough, biblical pastors/counselors can always appeal to the time that David faked his madness. In fact, biblical counselors take it lots further.

ACBC

Fearful expectations can cause a person to deceitfully impersonate delusional madness. I mean, we can see this in first Samuel 21 with David. David feigned that he was mad. And why did he do it? Because fear was ruling and dominating his life for a time. Or Scripture tells us that sustained oppression, life crisis situations, and disobedience to the truth will often result in mental impairment.

…The Bible also tells us that a mentally unstable person can be seen in disorganized and sometimes very harmful personal behavior, so we have to take that into account as well.

So, if a weekend warrior biblical counselor can rule out psychosis from neurosyphilis and the like (read the article) then, the counselee is probably faking it!!!! This is dangerous and continues to convince me that ACBC counseling is poorly conceived by people without sufficient training to understand just how much they don’t know.

It gets worse. Did you know that, according to ACBC, most schizophrenics are not even Christians even if they think they are?!!

And isn’t this the perfect excuse for charlatans? They claim that a person isn’t saved so they can blow off the pain and suffering that a counselee is experiencing is due to the fact that they are not Christians.

The other issue is as a biblical counselor you’ve got to begin with the gospel. You really do because that’s the most loving thing that can be done, and it’s the most hopeful thing that can be done. You begin with a gospel, no matter how well you think you know the person that you’re counseling. Because the overwhelming number of schizophrenics may say that they’re Christian, but they are really not believers. God’s Word must determine their view of reality—not their voices or not what they see in their visions.

In fact, this line of reasoning is as despicable as it is unproven. Careful research in this area is sadly lacking and judgementalism is overwhelming. I have a family member who clung to the Gospel during her delusions and diagnosis. Yet, ACBC claims and SBTS supports that, even if she thought she was a Christian, she probably wasn’t. It must be nice being able to ghostwrite for the Book of Life. Here is one person who agrees with me.

Final Thoughts:

  • ACBC’s untrained counselors in churches should be able to figure out when something is physiological in origin and consult physicians. I say they can’t. They don’t have the training.
  • ACBC, and by extension, SBTS make claims about the beliefs of psychiatrists/psychologists which are easily refuted if one believes that the NIH knows more than ACBC.
  • The leaders in ACBC/SBTS have no medical training. They are biblicists.
  • According to ACBC/SBTS, delusions and madness are often faked. The Bible tells us so.
  • According to ACBC/SBTS, most schizophrenics are not Christians. In my opinion, people with mental illness should never receive counseling from ACBC or anyone who graduated from SBTS in the counseling program.
  • Do the leaders in the SBC know what SBTS and ACBC are saying and doing?
  • is the SBC prepared to announce that anyone with schizophrenia is probably not a Christian?

Let me leave you with a thought submitted by a clinical psychologist (Ph.D.) who is involved in medication trials.

While our current science quite honesty leaves much for our continued research as to the etiology and most effective treatment for many/most of these disorders, the reduction to “sin” is objectionable on numerous grounds. iIhave often wondered (and occasionally expressed) as to the frequency of medication use by these same pastors for disorders like hypertension, type 2 diabetes, weight loss and the like (valid medical conditions with effective treatments) when “sinful” choices related to eating, exercise, and the like may have in fact caused or contributed to those conditions as well. This kind of hypocrisy is all to rampant in the church, as you have documented for years. Psychiatric disorders are complex, multifactorial, and usually impossible to explain easily.

I laughed so hard, coffee got all over my screen.

On Monday, I will demonstrate how the ACBC leaders will throw their counselors under the bus. I have proof and it ain’t pretty.

Comments

Association of Certified Biblical Counselors and Southern Baptist Theological Seminary: People With Delusions May Be Faking It and Christians With Schizophrenia Are Probably Not Christians! — 112 Comments

  1. This is so sad. Schizophrenia has much stigma related to it, and these counselors make it worse. Medications that adjust dopamine levels in the brain work to reduce delusions. This disease is a result of a chemical imbalance within the brain, not demonic activity.
    I think these counselors, and those who teach them, will get the shock of their lives on Judgement Day. They will certainly have to give an account for all of this foolishness.

  2. “and earned his doctoral degree from Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania”

    Me too, but mine was historical theology (Reformation)

  3. A couple thoughts after reading this post.

    I knew a woman who took all of her medication and dumped it out right in the toilet at church after a counseling session with Pastor Pat. That didn’t turn out too well for her.

    What I find interesting is how they say that someone with schizophrenia is probably not saved, why do they continue to assume that men that continue to be abusive are saved?? This was my situation, if I even said I was concerned that he claims to be a believer but wasn’t showing fruit… Well that wasn’t my place to say.

    That’s pretty inconsistent.

  4. Perhaps part of the imperative behind the “prospective members must sign a membership covenant” agenda is to make it harder for the laity to later sue for counseling malpractice.

  5. “The other issue is as a biblical counselor you’ve got to begin with the gospel… Because the overwhelming number of schizophrenics may say that they’re Christian, but they are really not believers.”

    This is despicable.

    I have a loved one who is one of the most genuine, caring, empathetic people I know. They model Jesus in their servant-hearted love for others. They also happen to be bi-polar.

    Was caring for them once during a psychotic episode. We walked to a nearby park to get some air. “Are we going to meet anyone here? Is Jesus here?” like they expected to see the risen Christ step out from behind a tree.

    Clearly, even in the midst of their psychosis, didn’t lose sight of their source of hope.

  6. I’m just going to say that you’ve not really lived until you’ve sat in on a psych appointment and heard your mother describe her hallucinations, both visual and auditory. It’s one thing to know my mom is schizophrenic, it’s quite another to hear her describe her symptoms to the psych nurse.

    My mother’s mental health has been greatly helped by the development of atypical antipsychotics, which have lessened (but not completely removed) the hallucinations.

    These ACBC people really need to shut up about things outside of their experience and training. *My* experience comes from over five decades of being my mother’s daughter, and, frankly, you can’t start addressing other issues until you get the hallucinations tamped down or removed. However, I am not an expert, and so I will defer to the experts who have many years of education and practice in dealing with brain issues. Thinking people are making these up–NOPE. It’s not helpful, and I’d tell Heath Lambert and the rest of ACBC to their faces that their beliefs are destructive. /end of rant

  7. Their justifications for why they reject psychology – ‘oh all sinners suppress the truth’ – but don’t seem to carry that across into all areas, physical medicine for one. So inconsistent, particularly about a verse that isn’t talking about that at all.

    Does any0one know what kicked off the development of ‘Christian’ counselling? Was it just a knee jerk reaction to seeing ‘secular’ counselling have positive effects on people & a feeling of somehow losing out to that?

  8. Wondering,

    You’re new here aren’t you?

    Well welcome to a place where if someone says they’re a trained Nurse, they actually are a trained Nurse. I’m so looking forward to seeing Dee get her receipts out.

  9. To reject healing medical assistance or to steer suffering people away from therapies which may help them lead peaceful, productive, Christian lives is in the same category of “ministry” as admonishing a homeless person to, “be thou fed and warmed and go in peace” without giving them a meal and a blanket.
    About the best you can say about ACBC counselors and their ilk is that their arrogant, self aggrandizing, righteousness will have it’s reward and they won’t like it. Shame!

  10. The thought occurs that counseling malpractice is another form of “abuse of flock”, and that this could be as widespread, or more so, than sexual abuse. Perhaps less common than generalized abuse of power.

    I’m guessing that skilled lawyers would not have difficulty developing legal theories which could be employed to hold malpracticers accountable and obtain compensation for harm caused.

    It has the feel of a libertarian paradise, where anything goes and tort law is the solution to all human problems.

    Alas, attempts to actually regulate church-based counseling and impose higher standards might run afoul of current day understandings of the First Amendment.

  11. I think a big mistake ACBC makes is to interpret 2 Peter 3-4 as meaning that the Bible instructs us on literally all areas of life, and they seem to define life as something like “every single issue and decision encompassing the totality of human experience”. The same logic could be used to explain why the Bible not only explains God’s plan of salvation but also what brand of food to buy the family hamster. It’s a totalitarian view of the Bible that is obviously not accurate.

  12. BeakerN,

    Considering the deception that we are all experiencing, from our politicians to “the greatest Christian apologist of our generation” ( i.e. RZ) to the president of the “leading Evangelical University” (Jr), it is not surprising that people will question the credentials of Dee and us posters… Heck, go ahead and look me up, I use my real name… I figure I should not post anything unless I put my name to it..
    PS… I completely agree with what Dee said about ACBC, and I have personally experienced the ant-science of this crowd…

  13. Julie Zepnick: they continue to assume that men that continue to be abusive are saved?? This was my situation, if I even said I was concerned that he claims to be a believer but wasn’t showing fruit… Well that wasn’t my place to say.

    This.

  14. Jeffrey J Chalmers: the deception that we are all experiencing

    Embarking on the journey of faith, it behooves one to sort lies & snake oil from truth. “Spiritual Reality or Obsession” by Watchman Nee explores this. Reading the Bible is essential while respecting science & history & reality because they are equally valid records – as the Bible. Creation is revelation, Genesis 1.1.

    Embarking on a major purchase, it behooves one to sort marketing lies & snake oil from truth. “Consumer Reports” can help.

    Casting a vote, it behooves one to sort lies & snake oil from truth, & to always consider the source of “News”.

    “Because everyone is doing it” – even & especially in “church” – is never a valid reason to do anything. Reality is with the longest view, right into Eternity with our Lord or with the father of lies in the other place.

  15. Rosie: This is so sad. Schizophrenia has much stigma related to it, and these counselors make it worse. Medications that adjust dopamine levels in the brain work to reduce delusions. This disease is a result of a chemical imbalance within the brain, not demonic activity.

    Thank you for your comment. Schizophrenia is a disease with stigma, The Baptists and ACBC are no place for those who suffer this difficult disease.

  16. drstevej,

    I have no problem with theological education if one wants to be a theologian or pastor. The counseling problem at SBTS is associated with ACXBC. Do you know if there is a link at Westminster?

  17. Julie Zepnick:
    A couple thoughts after reading this post.

    I knew a woman who took all of her medication and dumped it out right in the toilet at church after a counseling session with Pastor Pat. That didn’t turn out too well for her.

    What I find interesting is how they say that someone with schizophrenia is probably not saved, why do they continue to assume that men that continue to be abusive are saved?? This was my situation, if I even said I was concerned that he claims to be a believer but wasn’t showing fruit… Well that wasn’t my place to say.

    That’s pretty inconsistent.

    Read this by Julie. She nails it.

  18. Muff Potter: ome fundamentalists believe that there is no such thing as Schizophrenia, only devils that can be beaten out of the afflicted.

    I saw that article. A reader sent me a very good way to prove that demons are not involved using theology! I am planning on using it in a post next week.

  19. Ava Aaronson: “Because everyone is doing it”

    – the Tower of Babel
    – the Golden Calf
    – the mob for Barabbas
    – ACBC
    – women cannot be leaders
    – keep submitting to DV
    – children, obey CSA dad
    – sign a church covenant/contract
    – applaud the pedo, in “church”
    – don’t report CSA & DV to LE
    – no independent investigations
    – Ravi the pervi, $upport & mask
    – sin leveling
    – silence & even gaslight witnesses (victims)
    – we love our leaders (at what cost?)
    – Etc.

  20. Samuel Conner: Perhaps part of the imperative behind the “prospective members must sign a membership covenant” agenda is to make it harder for the laity to later sue for counseling malpractice.

    Wow! Wish I had said this. I believe you are right. I remember reading something about how those dadblasted covenants were to protect against suits for a bunch of things and one of them was counseling. I;’ll try ot find something about it.

  21. Wild Honey: Was caring for them once during a psychotic episode. We walked to a nearby park to get some air. “Are we going to meet anyone here? Is Jesus here?” like they expected to see the risen Christ step out from behind a tree.
    Clearly, even in the midst of their psychosis, didn’t lose sight of their source of hope.

    Beautiful. I believe ACBC/SBTS have no sense of the beauty of faith in the midst of terrific struggle.

  22. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

    Thank you for sharing your mother’s story with us. I know it must have been hard working through this with her. Kudos to you for your strength and understanding. When everyone is vaccinated, we hope to make another visit out there.

  23. Wondering,

    Bless your heart. I have a BSN and worked as a home health, public health nurse, etc. My favorite job was on the Navajo Reservation.I was employed by the Navajo Tribe. I worked as a supervisor at the Rochester Visiting Nurse Association while I was obtaining an MBA from the University of Rochester while my husband was in residency there. Then, I worked for Glaxo while he did his fellowship in cardiology at Duke. Oh, and the Washington Post looked into my background rather extensively. Have you ever had your life put under a microscope? Bet not. It really helped me to know that I have told the truth in this. Anything else?

  24. dee: It really helped me to know that I have told the truth in this.

    Because truth is the hill to die on.
    The truth about women, about counseling, about DV, about CSA, etc.

  25. Rosie: This disease is a result of a chemical imbalance within the brain, not demonic activity.

    The guy who wrote the Malleus Maleficarium begs to differ, and his disciples are in the driver’s seat.

  26. ch: About the best you can say about ACBC counselors and their ilk is that their arrogant, self aggrandizing, righteousness will have it’s reward and they won’t like it. Shame!

    They have to lose in the here-and-now, and be exposed by bullhorn from the rooftops for all to see, or else we’re just sitting quietly with folded hands mouthing pious platitudes.

  27. BeakerN: Does any0one know what kicked off the development of ‘Christian’ counselling

    I think it started OK. Some psychiatrists, etc. incorporated Christian thinking into the process. Duke University, for example, was known for this in their Department of Psychiatry which may surprise some people.

    Then some biblicists got it into their heads that the Bible should be the answer to all problems in the emotional areas. They rejected scientific advances in understanding brain chemistry, claiming that the Bible answers everything in that area. Of course there were examples of some psychologists who claimed that *religion* was a problem. In every field of study, one will get outliers but biblicists exhibited great fear of the secualr as opposed to seeing how they interact.

    The Bible doesn’t answer how to treat cancer, nor does it answer brain function. Just like it took almost 2,000 years after Jesus to begin to treast cancer effectively, the same goes for the brain. My daughter’s pediatric neurosurgeon tod me that he felt like a caveman operating on the brain. There is so much we don’t know. And biblicists know even less.

  28. Ava Aaronson,

    There have been some folks who have done their utmost to find something in my background or writing that is not true. The reason I quote others so much is to prove what I’m saying.

  29. Jeffrey J Chalmers: from our politicians to “the greatest Christian apologist of our generation” ( i.e. RZ) to the president of the “leading Evangelical University” (Jr), it is not surprising that people will question the credentials of Dee and us posters… Heck, go ahead and look me up,

    It’s been one helluva year, hasn’t it? So glad to have a real scientist backing us up!!

  30. BeakerN: Does any0one know what kicked off the development of ‘Christian’ counselling? Was it just a knee jerk reaction to seeing ‘secular’ counselling have positive effects on people & a feeling of somehow losing out to that?

    That’s my guess.
    Best expressed by the prophet Julius Marx in 1932:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHash5takWU

  31. Julie Zepnick: What I find interesting is how they say that someone with schizophrenia is probably not saved, why do they continue to assume that men that continue to be abusive are saved??

    BECAUSE THEY’RE PASTORS, THAT’S WHY.
    THEY HAVE PENISES! (unzip…) SEE? SEE? SEE?

  32. My wife and I led DivorceCare groups, a video focused divorce recovery program designed for use in Christian churches. It has gone through four versions over time and they have generally improved in content and presentation. They have always included content from licensed therapists. Starting in version three, they inserted nouthetic or biblical counselors, including some of the big names in the practice. Interestingly enough,they also used Leslie Vernick, a licensed therapist who is outspoken in her opposition to biblical counseling. My opinion is that they were getting pushback from churches that utilize biblical counseling. So they compromised the program to appease the critics, creating cognizant dissonance within. I do not know what version four looks like because we stopped using DivorceCare in favor of a secular program.

  33. dee: Christian thinking

    I used to wear a cross necklace, even though I did not grow up in a tradition where everybody did that.

    Then I started volunteering with a program for bereaved children. Parents were in the room at all times, mainly young widows, or women who had just lost a child.

    Too many of them had stories about overbearing relatives and friends who told them to pray more, trust Jesus, and so on. Well, a lot of these folks had prayed, but their spouse or baby had died anyway. Some of them were not Christians. Although lots of people would welcome this advice, it caused some people great pain. It did not come from a place of understanding the bereaved individual.

    I decided that the most Christian thing I could do was to stop wearing a cross to these group sessions. This was my small private decision. My love and understanding of these dear people did not need a visible symbol.

  34. Would these Biblical Counseling advocates go to a “Biblical” Surgeon who rebukes or prays over an appendix ready to rupture, rather than surgically removing it? They are SO clueless, blind, and dangerous. Not to mention arrogant…

  35. Friend,

    Unfortunately, with the rise of “Christian Nationalism” I am afraid any Christian symbol is going to set some people off… 5 people died at the US Capital uprising, and their were people running around there with Jesus flags and the “posters” “prayed” in the hall of Congress….. sigh……

  36. BeakerN,

    My understanding is that the Neuthetic folk got tired of explaining what the word meant. Also there was a negative vibe (thoroughly earned) to the organization that they were too confrontational and abrasive. From some in the field, there was too much emphasis on the external “sinful” behaviors of the client (which smacks of behaviorism?), and not enough emphasis on the gospel and heart change.

  37. readingalong: They are SO clueless, blind, and dangerous. Not to mention arrogant…

    Yes they are, and if allowed to continue with no push-back, how long would it be until they’re burning Witches again?

  38. Now here is a topic that I know something about. My mother was hospitalized four times for “Nervous Breakdowns” or what they now call Major Depressive Disorder. My grandmother on the other side of the family spent all her latter years in a mental institution. My brother’s ex has a eating disorder based in paranoia. She is convinced that most foods will make her ill if eaten. My ex was prone to bouts of depression. And I have my own recovery from a severe childhood disorder which I give full credit to God for helping me through. I have had a better and fuller recovery than anyone else I have known. Along that way I learned somethings that did and did not work, at least for me.

    I have been a part of an online mental health support group now for over three years. There I have seen some more remarkable recoveries but also witnessed tragedies. The first schizoaffective disorder person I met was there. His parents were regulars coming to get some support for their very troubled young son. He was in a pattern of hospitalization followed by stability, followed by release where he would quickly go back to smoking dope, which as one might imagine played havoc with his meds and mental state. Then the cycle would repeat. This cycle ended after his best recovery followed by pot causing him to kill himself on Good Friday 2018. He was college age so this disorder is no joke.

    There is a woman who sometimes comes currently with the same disorder. She is definitely a Christian but recently spoke of the nightmare she has gone through since her teen years. She is more stable now in her 30’s but it would be horrible for anyone to quickly judge her faith or what she has been though as these despicable white-washed septic tanks do.

    I have met two people so far who have schizophrenia. Both are gay. One I have written here about before, a manager where I used to work who was most obscenely hitting on 16 year old boys. My last day at work I found out he had just been diagnosed. He had just turned 26. Make of that what you will. The other was a friend of an OCD friend of mine. He did not do well in public but had no problem that one day he met me. I was with his friend and I appear to have a calming effect when I am around those with mental disorders. That is likely a spiritual thing that would be hard to describe or understand. Neither of these claimed to be Christian.

    Speaking of LBGTQ people with disorders, every person I have known who fits in that category has a diagnosed disorder(s) and I am not talking about the old days when it was considered a mental disorder by some to be LBGTQ. So make of that what you will for the seven I have met. And speaking of the term “gay” for these people I would say that their lives have been the opposite of the original meaning of “ecstatically happy.” There own descriptions of their lives would be more of a nightmare than “gay,” more of dysphoria than euphoria.

    Yet I have seen how simple ongoing relationships with other true Christians coupled with heartfelt prayer has helped with a host of different disorders. In my own group all of those who have stuck with it over a long period of time did eventually see significant improvement. There is scientific evidence that peer support groups do help. Having people who are ignorant of many things being trained as Neo-Pharisees is neither helpful or truly biblical. Solomon keeps calling to us to “get wisdom” and that is much more than words on a page. Wisdom in not the same as knowledge, but even these totally lack that. “To answer before listening– that is folly and shame.” Prov. 18:13

    My own testimony is one where I have found God to be a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Heb. 11:6

  39. RMarkham,

    It does not just smack of “behaviorism”…. I took a phycology class in college, and we had to read “Walden II”, by BF Skinner… while Skinner is atheistic, or at least agnostic, I swear that you could just change alittle of the book and it would should like so manny fundies…. which is so ironic, since the Bible makes clear that it takes more than proper “training” to solve all the problems in the world….. look how quick the Children of Israel made a golden calf! Heck, they had just seen all the miracles coming out of Egypt!

  40. Samuel Conner: attempts to actually regulate church-based counseling and impose higher standards

    The only way to “pro” pose higher standards is to popularise level headedness, breadth and depth of view, “assent to degrees of inference”, and living in the real (TM-not) Holy Spirit’s strength and belief. In the Apostles’ time believers didn’t call each other “christians”. I know proper Baptists who feel traduced.

    The Pat Robertson types were the ones that were rich enough to take over the media. Meantime continue to plug reputable counselling especially “long term trauma informed”. We above all should be defending the right of individuals to own their own griefs.

    The Jesus freaks’ mania for saying to people “Are you saved? I’m saved” reminds me of the John Inman character in “Are You Being Served” saying “Are you free? I’m free” (which was probably the take off of that).

    dee: the beauty of faith

    (TM-not)

  41. dee,

    The cast-out devil that moves back into the swept house with seven “friends” worse than himself, could be compared (in addition to whatever other senses), to the Pharisees who, having expelled “wrong thinking” (but not replacing it with real (TM-not) Holy Spirit, sought throughout land and sea for a disciple to make worse than themselves, or a fresh trope to burden their subalterns with.

    Indeed the (self-imported) animators of something I witnessed, performed this very move: my friends were wary, but didn’t drop out quick enough (with hindsight).

    Another time, it was when I was told “the nasty people have left” (that included lots who weren’t nasty), that I left that place too.

    This blog is strengthened when we show we’re not about “dislikes”, or memes, or behaviourism.

  42. RMarkham,

    Read the post linked at the top. I discuss how the only thing different between nouthetic and biblical counseling is. the spelling.

  43. Jeffrey J Chalmers,

    Noted. The Jesus flags waving while actions/words had nothing to do with Jesus.

    “Under the Banner of Heaven” by John Krakauer documents a similar disconnect.

    Those who selected Barabbas prolly thought they were rallying for God. How wrong can one be…

  44. Speaking of things autocratic, we wouldn’t want to confuse the public with science and very complex measurement sets; just leave everything to them. This mindset and approach should go well:

    https://www.ktvu.com/news/california-keeps-key-virus-data-out-of-public-sight.amp?taid=600c0664e8fa030001a3cfdf&utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=trueanthem&utm_source=twitter&__twitter_impression=true

    “California Gov. Gavin Newsom has from the start said his coronavirus policy decisions would be driven by data shared with the public to provide maximum transparency. But with the state starting to emerge from its worst surge, his administration won’t disclose key information that will help determine when his latest stay-at-home order is lifted.”

    “State health officials said they rely on a very complex set of measurements that would confuse and potentially mislead the public if they were made public.”

  45. Dee:
    RMarkham,

    Read the post linked at the top. I discuss how the only thing different between nouthetic and biblical counseling is. the spelling.

    Like the difference between ChEKA, OGPU, NKVD, KGB, and today’s FSB.

  46. RMarkham: My understanding is that the Neuthetic folk got tired of explaining what the word meant.

    So they went for the Thoughtstopper word “Biblical”.
    Because to Christians, anything with “Bible” is a Thoughtstopper.

  47. In my not so humble opinion this is all about people’s perception about the mind and the soul.

    While most (but no where near all) people are willing to take a drug (or herb or whatever) to fix a physical ailment below the middle of the skull, many Christians will not deal with what goes on in someone’s mind. It CANNOT be physical. Because if drugs or similar can makes changes in the way someone thinks it is really altering their soul. And that line of thinking just can’t be allowed. At all.

  48. JDV: “State health officials said they rely on a very complex set of measurements that would confuse and potentially mislead the public if they were made public.”

    The whole piece sets up a false choice between freedom and health. Yes, public officials should make data-driven decisions in a transparent way. But when they don’t, why do people suspect that they have a secret yen to restrict freedom?

    Here’s another quote, which might suggest that officials are not “autocratic,” but are scrambling to devise a strategy as more viral variants show up:

    State officials projected future capacity using a combination of models. “At the moment the projections are not being shared publicly,” Department of Public Health spokeswoman Ali Bay said in an email to The Associated Press.

    California Health and Human Services Agency spokeswoman Kate Folmar said officials are committed to transparency, providing twice-weekly updates on whether regions can relax restrictions. But she said projected ICU capacity is based on multiple variables, including available beds and staffing that change regularly.

    “These fluid, on-the-ground conditions cannot be boiled down to a single data point — and to do so would mislead and create greater uncertainty for Californians,” she said in a statement.

  49. GMFS

    And Now: cricket, which – if nothing else – is good for everyone’s mental health.

    In the Second Test in Galle, Sri Lanka posted a strong first-innings total of 381 in their first innings. Matthews turned in a Captain’s Innings of 110, with Dickwella narrowly missing out on a ton himself (caught of Anderson for 92). Anderson himself became the oldest pace-bowler to bag a Test fiver-fer in Asia, returning splendid figures of 6-40 off 29 overs.

    England have faltered somewhat in reply; they’re currently 271-6 with Root unbeaten on 146; apart from Root, though, only Jos Buttler has really contributed (caught of Mendis for 55). The ball is turning off a worn pitch, too, and with Sri Lanka being better exponents of spin than England, the hosts are in a strong position to level the series.

    IHTIH

  50. NC Now: In my not so humble opinion this is all about people’s perception about the mind and the soul.

    I think this is exactly right, and I would add to it a significant element of “conflict at jurisdictional boundaries”.

    Psychiatry and psychology have been encroaching on “cure of souls”, which prior to the late 1800s was essentially uncontested (in US, at least) as lying within the Church’s jurisdiction. The more (or perhaps “most”) conservative branches of US churchdom (I don’t think there was such vigorous reaction in Europe) pushed back. A lot of the pushback has been, IMO, inexpert, to put it mildly. (Not unlike the reactionary engagement with natural history. Back in the ’80s, contemplating what the YE movement was peddling, I formed the hypothesis “if it’s Christian, it’s crap”. That’s deeply unfair to the wider Church, but I think it’s not a bad summary of the more vocal and hubristic elements of reaction in the more self-confident parts of the churches).

    Back when I paid more attention to BC, I was told that there was disagreement about how to “divide” human ontology. Are humans “tripartite” (body/mind/soul) or “bipartite” (inner man/outer man). BC adopts the latter view, though one could still argue whether “brain function” should be regarded to be an aspect of the “outer man” (the physical body) or the “inner man” (the “heart”).

    Of course, there is also the anthropology that must not be named, “non-reductive physicalism”, that sees inner man functions as emergent properties of the outer man. That view would be highly problematic for BC, I think. The BC people I know are all dualists.

  51. From the opening post: “Psychiatric disorders are complex, multifactorial, and usually impossible to explain easily.”

    I have mentioned in some other TWW comments that I am high-functioning Asperger’s with Complex-PTSD. Some of the Complex-PTSD I experience is a result of extreme abuse that started at an early age.

    You would not believe how many labels can – and have been – falsely applied to me.

    I cannot even begin to fathom the mess the ACBC counsellors would have made of my life.

    (And yes, I am still a Christian, although the ACBC would, for any number of reasons, consider me an unbeliever.)

    P.S. Thank you, Dee and TWW commenters, for another thought-provoking post and conversation.

  52. Friend: The whole piece sets up a false choice between freedom and health. Yes, public officials should make data-driven decisions in a transparent way. But when they don’t, why do people suspect that they have a secret yen to restrict freedom?

    Here’s another quote, which might suggest that officials are not “autocratic,” but are scrambling to devise a strategy as more viral variants show up:

    State officials projected future capacity using a combination of models. “At the moment the projections are not being shared publicly,” Department of Public Health spokeswoman Ali Bay said in an email to The Associated Press.


    California Health and Human Services Agency spokeswoman Kate Folmar said officials are committed to transparency, providing twice-weekly updates on whether regions can relax restrictions. But she said projected ICU capacity is based on multiple variables, including available beds and staffing that change regularly.

    “These fluid, on-the-ground conditions cannot be boiled down to a single data point — and to do so would mislead and create greater uncertainty for Californians,” she said in a statement.

    “Yes, public officials should make data-driven decisions in a transparent way. But when they don’t, why do people suspect that they have a secret yen to restrict freedom?”

    You can apply the same thing to the ACBC and the Crossway church elders as far as not having secret restrictive yens in a theoretical and academic sense. In both cases, you have those were supposed to be servants (public service in one case) presumably in some measure acting in what they deem as the best interest for those to whom they’re charged with serving. However, how many officials in either case really have service as a top view rather than managing people while checking off their personal priorities of power and enrichment? In both cases, there are models where powers are extremely centralized under one system and central authority, and the fruits are evident.

    I brought this up in the first place because I was struck out something going on currently in the public sphere echoes so strongly the mindset an approach displayed by the organizations involved. Since we’ve gotten into motives and execution, it is appropriate to at least speak to a couple of further examples, especially since questions have been raised to applicability versus a failed equivalence. That includes dictates that have included telling the public with whom they cannot reportedly trust very complex measurements with very complex purported disease prevention tactics such as eating in restaurants while raising and lowering their mask in between bites cuz science / best practices.

    It’s also tough to accept the suggestion that “officials are not ‘autocratic’” when officials giving them evade restrictions at restaurants, hair salons, and official Hawaii junkets after advocating compliance to restrictions because of the life-and-death nature of the situation. (As the hypocrisy has bipartisan examples throughout the country, I’m not speaking to this on a political party issue rather than as a power and stewardship issue, focused on the players involved in the original posting to underscore the hypocrisy.). Thus, their additional words about concern for creating greater uncertainty falls as flat as those warning Julie’s church about cutting off “juicy information“ before it is told. In both cases, those assuming charge over others while dictating conduct overreach when they act like transparency is above the paygrade of those they serve, and the burden of proof is on them as far as motives.

  53. It makes you wonder if Alzheimer’s is also the result of sin and unbelief that usually occurs after decades of walking with the Lord, since involuntary behavior- and mind-affecting neurological problems don’t exist.

  54. JDV: In both cases, those assuming charge over others while dictating conduct overreach when they act like transparency is above the paygrade of those they serve, and the burden of proof is on them as far as motives.

    Very good observation here although I would call this Narcissistic overreach as these people really do believe that they are simply superior to everyone else.

  55. JDV: In both cases, those assuming charge over others while dictating conduct overreach when they act like transparency is above the paygrade of those they serve, and the burden of proof is on them as far as motives.

    That’s a truly thoughtful comparison. Certainly we have seen public figures in all walks of life break the rules they espouse for the pandemic.

    A distinction would be between a system in ordinary times versus a system struggling against a crisis. The next question would be whether the system created the crisis, and whether leaders covered it up.

  56. Dee:
    RMarkham,

    Read the post linked at the top. I discuss how the only thing different between nouthetic and biblical counseling is. the spelling.

    My apologies. After I posted I saw the previous comments.

  57. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Unfortunately, as all the anti-science examples here are demonstrating, some concepts of what is “Biblical” require shutting down your mind. I’m sure that Paul and Dr. Luke practiced their faith while renewing their minds, not ignoring them. Sadly, today this label of “Biblical” has become almost as meaningless as the word “natural” on food packages at the grocery store. I never take it at face value, ever, like the Bereans modeled for us.

  58. Friend: whether the system created the crisis, and whether leaders covered it up.

    Covering up, for example, CSA or DV in the church will create church to be safe for predators, i.e., a hunting ground, which then becomes a crisis for others, (especially vulnerable people), who, in seeking God & fellowship, participate in “church”.

    Covering up: only inside “investigations”, silencing witnesses (victims), gaslighting witnesses (victims), subversion of agency of women (“Submit!”) and youth/children (“Honor!”) via errant “theology”, “church discipline” of witnesses (victims), labeling PSA (Public Service Announcements) as slander, communication stifling.

    In turn, the witnesses (victims) seek counseling for processing what they have witnessed. Would ACBC be appropriate counseling? IOW, do theologians do surgery, fix plumbing, write software, launch spaceships? No.

  59. Friend: Yes, public officials should make data-driven decisions in a transparent way. But when they don’t, why do people suspect that they have a secret yen to restrict freedom?

    People want simple answers to complicated questions/problems. And a majority will pick the simple BUT WRONG answer over the complicated but right or at least better answer most of the time.

    And when you say data driven most people want to think the data will lead to AN ANSWER. Where in real life it will tend to sort of mostly kind of point in a general direction. And that direction might change as more data comes in.

    So the data driven people get accused of “making it up” or not being someone you can trust (flip flopping is an invective that gets used a lot here) while the simple but wrong people get portrayed as being decisive and forthright.

    After all do you want to follow someone who says “we should likely do this but may change this if other things change” or the person who says “I have the answer and here it is”?

  60. SH: anti-science examples here are demonstrating, some concepts of what is “Biblical” require shutting down your mind

    Or, as stated today online: “having an opinion & calling it knowledge”.

    In reality, science evidence – as what we witness in creation or the natural world, and faith evidence – as in believing the testimony of the disciples/witnesses in the biblical record – two different things.

    Science overreach (telling my HS biology teacher I believed in creation by God not by an unintentional Bang, etc. – and she telling me I had a problem with Science) or Faith overreach (the Bible providing scientific answers for everything) are both errant, IMHO.

    Creation or the physical universe, scientifically, is revelation as much as the Bible is revelation. Do scientists & theologians & historians always tell the truth, even on record? No. Discernment, consider the source(s), critical thinking are always required, even with the “experts”. Some bona fide experts have horrible ethics.

    Everyone needs to stay in their lane, and everyone needs to read the room, IMHO. Jesus’ example of both: “Render unto Caesar . . .” Jesus also differentiated between physical birth (science) & spiritual rebirth (faith), in his conversation with Nicodemus, John 3.

  61. SH: Sadly, today this label of “Biblical” has become almost as meaningless as the word “natural” on food packages at the grocery store. I never take it at face value, ever, like the Bereans modeled for us.

    The comparison you made between the label “Biblical” and the label “natural” on food packaging being meaningless is incredibly apt….and the words “hair care”, “cosmetics”, etc., could just as easily be substituted for the word food.

    (And some hair care products list so many food ingredients that I sometimes wonder if the hair care product is really meant to be eaten…..)

  62. Gus,

    For every problem there is always one answer that is simple, easy, obvious …

    and wrong.

    An engineering mantra.

  63. researcher: The comparison you [SH] made between the label “Biblical” and the label “natural” on food packaging being meaningless is incredibly apt….and … some hair care products list so many food ingredients that I sometimes wonder if the hair care product is really meant to be eaten…..

    I don’t know whether this applies in Americaland as well, but there’s been a frantic race to add the prefix “pro-” to cosmetic product ingredients over here in UK-land. “pro-vitamins” became so universal that I started joking about “pro-protein”. It wasn’t long before life imitated art, when some marketing department somewhere started pushing “pro-keratin”, which is now everywhere.

    I, like other Wartburgers, have increasingly come to associate the term “biblical” with counterfeit and quackery.

  64. NC Now: So the data driven people get accused of “making it up” or not being someone you can trust (flip flopping is an invective that gets used a lot here) while the simple but wrong people get portrayed as being decisive and forthright.

    Type example: the Federal-level COVID response until this week.

  65. SH: Unfortunately, as all the anti-science examples here are demonstrating, some concepts of what is “Biblical” require shutting down your mind.

    I call it “Holy Nincompoop Syndrome:
    The more stupid and ignorant you are, the more Spiritual and Godly and Biblical you must be.

  66. researcher: I have mentioned in some other TWW comments that I am high-functioning Asperger’s with Complex-PTSD.

    A lot of the first-generation fans I’ve known in various fandoms would also fit that description.

    Some of the Complex-PTSD I experience is a result of extreme abuse that started at an early age.

    Adding that to the mix confirms it. (My writing partner has had to counsel a lot of younger Furry Fans and said that most of them also have that in their past. And that obsessing on the fandom was literally a survival mechanism.)

  67. Mr. Jesperson: Narcissistic overreach as these people really do believe that they are simply superior to everyone else

    You don’t mean . . . gasp . . . ONTOLOGICALLY?

  68. GMFH!

    As cricket is the national sport of heaven, it is ultimately My prerogative to update My people on the current scores (though sometimes, of course, I allow My children to do it).

    Sri Lanka have just, in the last minute, been bowled out for 126 after dismissing England for 344 with Joe Root falling to the last delivery of the third day for 186. England, therefore, are chasing 164 to win, and Sri Lanka are chasing 10 wickets. A fine finish is in prospect.

    Best regards,
    God

  69. Calvinism aka reformed theology categorically states that divine sovernity, what ever that implies, and not as the Christ has inarabally sated, whosoever may come, is the determinate for salvation. Calvinists have made their theology of human construct, superior to Christ’s New Testament words. They, in essence have created a false gospel, which the holy scriptures says to avoid under penalty of judgement.

  70. “the so-called *certification* by ACBC is not recognized by any professional organization outside of a particular church that may allow one to counsel or some *biblical counseling* groups that will allow you to practice without a license”

    Bottom-line, IMO: unless there is a State licensure for “counseling” of any sort, one should not subject him/herself to such counselor. Just as the laying on of hands does not guarantee that a pastor is anointed by God, calling someone certified anything does not make them so. A person is not really certified to practice in a field regardless of the amount of training they may have received if “certification” was not given under the oversight of an agency which grants and regulates professional licenses. The process is akin to buying a degree online … an ACBC counselor is not a professional in the true sense of the word. The whole ACBC thing potentially opens the door to whackos to enter the flock as trusted counselors. I’m not surprised this is occurring under the New Calvinist watch. New Calvinism is all about control of the pew through manipulation, intimidation, and domination.

  71. SH: Sadly, today this label of “Biblical” has become almost as meaningless as the word “natural” on food packages at the grocery store. I never take it at face value, ever, like the Bereans modeled for us.

    The average 21st century Christian lacks knowledge in this regard because they don’t search the Scriptures daily to see what they are being told is true. The New Calvinists toss “Biblical”, “Christ-centered”, and “Grace” around like cheapjacks’ wares. It’s another gospel which is not ‘the’ Gospel.

  72. readingalong: They are SO clueless, blind, and dangerous. Not to mention arrogant…

    No surprise that ACBC is primarily of New Calvinist origin. There is a pandemic of arrogance within their ranks.

  73. Max: The New Calvinists toss “Biblical”, “Christ-centered”, and “Grace” around like cheapjacks’ wares.

    To where “Biblical”, “Christ-centered”, and “Grace” have become meaningless buzzwords.
    “Smurf” or “Marclar” or “Like, Y’Know…”

  74. Max: search the Scriptures daily to see what they are being told is true

    And read the whole Bible, while being attentive to God’s Holy Spirit for guidance.

    Example: Repentance, to be valid, requires appropriate action, “fruit” as in Luke 3.8 and Acts 3.8 and Zacchaeus, who paid those he wronged x4 what they had lost due to his criminal behavior.

    Example: Break social connections (particularly in church) with those who are social predators according to 1 Corinthians 5 and in the book of Jude. Heaven or hell or the final judgement? God decides. But in social circles? We have a responsibility to cut social ties with predators.

  75. Ava Aaronson: unintentional Bang

    I am laughing at the scene of a Bang who is looking up in his Purpose Driven book whether he is allowed to Go Off.

  76. Ava Aaronson: We have a responsibility to cut social ties with predators.

    Amen! And don’t give them a standing ovation when they “repent”, nor their pulpits back after a short “restoration” period.

  77. Ava Aaronson: read the whole Bible, while being attentive to God’s Holy Spirit for guidance

    That’s a radical idea, Ava! It’s like early church stuff! 🙂

  78. Sòpwith: Calvinism * aka reformed * theology categorically states that divine sovernity, what ever that implies, and not as the Christ has inarabally sated, whosoever may come, is the determinate for salvation. Calvinists * have made their theology of human construct, superior to Christ’s New Testament words.

    { * except a few quaint ones I know, which doesn’t alter your point }

    Max: New Calvinism is all about control of the pew through manipulation, intimidation, and domination.

    God’s decrees and ordinances are permissive, not coercive, that is why they, of anybody’s, are called “just”.

  79. Max: The New Calvinists toss “Biblical”, “Christ-centered”, and “Grace” around like cheapjacks’ wares.

    It is not only the New Calvinists that toss around the words “Christ-centered” and “Grace” like cheapjacks’ wares….

  80. My elder brother age 68 has been diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic since his early twenties. HE calls twice a day. Also he gets saved everyday. I think it is better to be saved everyday than not ever be saved. He wants to be a christian so bad.
    There are so many conditions that will not be healed until heaven. .The mentally sick will be fine in heaven but God is looking to see if the rest of us can show Christian compassion. Shades of Matthew 25

  81. researcher: It is not only the New Calvinists that toss around the words “Christ-centered” and “Grace” like cheapjacks’ wares….

    Indeed. While the new reformers have been the most recent abusers of words of faith, various persuasions of the organized church have been sacrilegious for decades.

  82. Mr. Jesperson,

    I usually leave a note saying when a comment hasn’t been let through. I don’t remember holding any of your back recently but let me know if I have. I may have forgoteen.

  83. “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” (Mt 7:21) This applies to everyone, schizophrenic or otherwise.

    And again, “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.” (Mt 7:13-4)

    It is reasonable to question if many, or most, people, whatever their state of mental health, who claim to be Christian, such as by checking a box on a form, are truly born again and have eternal life.

  84. Mr. Jesperson: How come they get to sue each other but their congregants can’t sue them?

    For the same reason(s) low-born crackers couldn’t sue over who owned whose negroes 170 years ago.

  85. Micaiah: It is reasonable to question if many, or most, people, whatever their state of mental health, who claim to be Christian, such as by checking a box on a form, are truly born again and have eternal life.

    I was young and now am old. With a 70+ year tenure of doing church in America, I’m convinced that most churchfolk I have known were not born again – having never experienced a personal encounter with the living Christ. Many were extremely religious, but spiritually destitute. Their “Christianity” was sort of like the flu vaccine – they received a shot of dead or weakened form of the virus to keep them from getting the real thing.

  86. Max,

    Yes Max, I agree, which is why questioning if someone, schizophrenic or otherwise, who initially says he is a Christian is truly born again need not be controversial, as this article and many of the comments make it out to be.

    Knowing someone, or multiple people, who is schizophrenic who is truly a Christian does not invalidate the fact that likely most people in the population at large, including those with mental health problems, who say they are Christians may not see eternal life. Few find the narrow road.

  87. Micaiah, I am so glad you have found the narrow road and that you know that millions of severely mentally ill and untold numbers of formally severely abused children who are now crazy, addicted, in prison or committed suicide are not.

  88. Micaiah,

    This is a warning. I know you have absolutely no insight into the salvation of many people. There is only one and I thank Him that He is in charge of the Book of Life and not you. You know the Bible verse which says “Judge not lest you be judged?” That isn’t dealing with ignoring a situation of secx abuse in the church. It is dealing with judging the salvation of others. And you are guilty of this unless God has given you special editing privileges for the Book of Life.

    I do not allow people to make ridiculous judgements such as the one you made on this blog. Go find a church un which you can do you thing. You are going into permanent moderation which means I will decide if your comments get through. I’m busy so it may take me awhile.

    Go sit in a corner and thing very, very carefully about what you have done here.

  89. dee,

    We agree there is only One in charge of the Book of Life. Do you believe Him in the verses I mentioned above from Matthew 7:13,14,21?

  90. Micaiah,

    I love *Pick a Bible verse* bingo. I most certainly do believe in those verses. This does not mean you get to be in charge of the toll booth on the narrow road. I leave those judgements in the God’s most capable hands.

  91. Micaiah,

    I dont like playinhg games. You appeared on this blog, claiming that schizophrenics are probably not Christians. I find this disturbing . Yes, the way is narrow but, in that day, you will find not find most scizophrenics and those with mental illness on that road.

    ” most people in the population at large, including those with mental health problems, who say they are Christians may not see eternal life. Few find the narrow road.”

    You are in permanent moderation and I will not approve a comment in modertaion. People who are mentally ill struggle enough. They don’t need you calling their faith into question. Go be a toll keeper on the road to heaven on another blog.