Julie’s Story Part 2: Shame on ACBC and Cross Walk Pastors. They Failed Julie and Then Blamed Her For Not Reporting Child Abuse Sooner

“When people cover for the misdeeds of others, they’re as guilty as those who committed the crimes.” ― Frank Sonnenberg,


(In this post, we have changed the names of children to protect their identities.)

How does Cross Walk view Psychology?

For us to have an understanding of how child abuse can be overlooked in this church which stresses ACBC counseling, we must first understand their position on Psychology. The church says this on its *hot button” page.

Psychology has no place in counseling within the church.

In that section, there is a link to their *position paper* on psychology and counseling. Warning: this is a disturbing look at psychology and one has to imagine that ACBC endorses their perspective since the church is an ACBC training center.

  • We believe that the Bible is sufficient to address every behavior of man produced by desires.
  • The DSM-IV (the diagnostic manual for psychology) describes depression in great detail without any proof that it is caused by a medical condition.
  • It is our firm belief that behavior problems can and must be addressed with the Bible since its answers are far superior to anything that psychology can offer.

Cross Walk is listed as a member of 9 Marks. 

It is obvious that this church is into pastor-centric authority and we would expect the abusive response of the church

As a neophyte *certified* ACBC counselor, Julie was confronted with a distressing situation that appears to be child abuse.

Julie gave a statement to the police in the child abuse case. The following is from that letter.

I met Lisa and Gabe Gutenberger when they started attending Cross Walk around the beginning of 2018 I believe.  One of the first interactions I had with Lisa was regarding my daughter’s  birthday party in May, 2018. She had invited Lisa’s daughter, Lori and Lisa asked me if Ellie and Ann were invited as well. I said they of course could come too. Lisa communicated that Ann was not allowed to come to the party because of her behavior, but the other two girls could.

Gabe’s first wife died in a car crash in 2012. They had two children, Ann and Matt. Here is the obituary. Julie said in her letter to the pastors:

Lisa left her husband and married Gabe not long after. Lisa adopted Ann and Matt. She had 4 children from her first marriage.

Julie describes her initial meeting with the Gutenbergers.

Later that year, Lisa and Gabe wanted to talk at least partly because of the issues they were having with Ann. Ann was about 12 at this time. Matt was about 14 I believe. I had recently become a biblical counselor at the church (certified with ACBC). My husband and I invited them over for dinner at our house. This took place on Tuesday, October 23, 2018. During our talk that evening. They told me that Ann lied a lot, stole things (an example was a piece of gum), and that she ate animal feed. That concerned me because they told me that she had “parasites from eating animal feed.”  They said they had no idea why she would eat animal feed, but this seemed to be one of the biggest issues. They explained some of how their household operated and I remember saying that they have way too many rules, causing unnecessary power struggles.

Matt, who was older than Ann, was sent away to a Christian boarding school.

Julie did not know the reason for this. However, it appears to me that Lisa G. was not particularly enthralled with caring for Gabe G’s children. Can you imagine their sadness in losing their mother? However, it appears that Ann’s expression of this sorrow was not acceptable. Here is when knowledge of psychology would have been of help.

Anne and urination

They told Julie:

 Ann had been urinating in inappropriate places.

Julie learned that both parents were glad the former wife died.

We also discussed Ann and Matt’s mother that evening and how she had died in a car accident. One or both of them said how much of a good thing it was that she died. I don’t remember the exact words they used, but it was shocking to me how emphatic they were in explaining how she was evil and that it was “the best thing that happened to him” or a “blessing” or something of that nature that she died.

Julie was told by the parents that they had been confronted by their former church over their treatment of Ann.

Lisa and Gabe told me about how it came to be that they left the old church in Shawano. The details were confusing, but they said that the pastors there confronted them about how they were treating Ann. They said that their church in Shawano threatened to take Ann away from them and that is why they sent her to live with family out of state in Iowa.

An escalation of concerning behavior by the Gutenbergers.

According to Julie:

I got a text from Lisa in the morning of Dec. 19, 2018 in which Lisa stated Ann had “escaped from her room” and was found in the root cellar “gorging” on food. Lisa told me that they had tied the door shut with a rope to keep her in her room and Ann got out. Lisa said, “I know that sounds extreme…” Lisa went on to explain what Ann was eating and she described a large amount of food including some sweets. Her focus was on how rebellious Ann was for escaping her room and eating all this food that she shouldn’t have been eating. Lisa was not asking for any advice from me regarding this matter. The tone of the conversation was one of “what else are we going to do, she’s so bad that we have to do this.”

I asked Julie if Ann was a heavy child. Julie said she was very thin and small.

Julie reported this to Pastor Pat and was told to not report this to the authorities.

Julie, clearly needing some support, went to Pastor Pat and reported what was going on. Pat should have known that it was his responsibility to report this to the authorities. Shame on him. Instead, according to Julie:

I called the senior pastor at Cross Walk Church, Patrick Ryan, right away to express my concern for Ann having been locked in her room like this. He said “we will keep our ear to the ground” but he said not to call CPS because we don’t want to scare them away and have them leave the church. He said they were skittish because of their experience at their previous church.

Julie continued in her relationship with the Gutenbergers whose behavior grew more concerning.

During one of our sessions Lisa said, “I don’t want to be told I’m Ann’s problem”. She also said she was tired of everyone (people from the other church I assumed) feeling bad for Ann just because her mom is dead. Lisa also said she didn’t want to keep hearing that Ann just needs more love. For homework at one point, I told Lisa to show Ann love in a tangible way a certain number of times that week. I gave examples of playing a game with just her, or even just touching her on the shoulder. Lisa literally shuddered and shook her head at that point and explained that that would not be something she could see herself doing.

Julie observed or learned of some concerning issues.

  • Ann could not use the bathroom at home without a sibling monitoring her.
  • She wasn’t allowed to go to birthday parties.
  • When she did go to other gatherings, the parents or siblings would hand her food to eat,. She was not allowed to make her own selections.
  • Her chores were restricted to things that don’t involve animal feed so she doesn’t eat it.
  • They would not allow her to be counseled, with or without them
  • They were treating Ann for *parasites,* seemingly without medical oversight or even proof she had parasites.
She continued to express her concern to Pastor Pat who showed little concern for the situation. After 10 months of this,  Julie resigned from the church in 2019. At that point, she reported her concern to Child Protective Services who apparently did nothing.

Pastor Pat did not appear to do much for Ann or the Gutenbergers. Julie reported the following:

  • He reportedly said to Julie “I know they are mistreating her”…and then went on to say that we are not going to call because we don’t want them to leave the church.
  • He said he would mandate counseling for Ann alone (without her parents) with him and another female counselor, but he never followed through
  • To my knowledge, Pat never confronted Gabe or Lisa about roping Ann in her room at all.
  • Pat said at an earlier time to me regarding my own personal situation, “the church is to protect people from the law.”

The Gutenbergers were arrested for child abuse in July 2020. A trial is to be held on February 4, 2021.

From First Alert WBAY: Parents, brother charged in Shawano County child abuse case

According to the criminal complaints, Child Protective Services was investigating serious allegations of child neglect and requested a deputy to be on-hand while she interviewed two children, a boy and a girl, in late June. The boy cried as he told them he was required to perform outdoor chores including cutting the lawn by hand and given little water. He said he was given punishments if he did something wrong, such as not being allowed to eat, his dad spanking him with a belt if he bent his knees while weeding the lawn.

The boy also said he was required to sleep on the floor of his bedroom even though it has a bed, and his parents installed a camera and alarm so they would know if he tried to leave his room. He wasn’t allowed to eat with the rest of the family. He says his family can’t stand him because of all his punishments.

…The health services worker described the boy as “skin and bones.

…The deputy said the girl wasn’t willing to be interviewed because she was afraid she would be punished for saying anything. In regards to punishments, she would only say that’s what happens when you live a sinful life, that sins need punishment.

… the camera in the boy’s room was still recording when the health worker and deputy came to the Gutenberger’s house.

News Break reported: Shawano Mother In Court For Alleged Child Abuse

According to the criminal complaint, two children, a 15-year-old male, and a 13-year-old female were not receiving enough food, were neglected and the boy received physical abuse as a form of discipline.

…Doctors labeled the children as malnourished and their eating abilities have been impacted. According to the report, police on the scene labeled the children as skin and bones.

…They also told police they could only use the restroom at certain times in the day and when they did, they had to go at the same time with one waiting outside the door to ensure that they went before flushing.

…All six children have been removed from the home.

Julie went to the police investigator and reported what happened while she was at Cross Walk.

I admire Julie. She takes some of the blame for this situation although I don’t believe she was properly trained by the church or the ACBC program.

I was hysterical when I first saw the news articles about the arrest. I ended up going to the police investigator in Shawano county and told them everything I knew, including how horrible it was of me to not have called CPS sooner.
Let me jump in here. When I was 22, I was a visiting nurse tasked with following some families accused of child abuse and neglect. I had my BSN and was aware of child abuse and neglect but had never seen it until this time. These families had already been identified as abusive so my job was made easier knowing that medical and mental health professionals had already diagnosed the issues. Can you imagine Julie being confronted by this abuse case which was clearly complex and in need of professional intervention? She should have been thanked for catching on to this situation. Instead, as you will see, she gets blamed for what happened.

People in the church reacted to the Gutenberger arrest and Pastor Pat sent out a devotional to the church on…you guessed it…slander.

Several families left the church. Here are some excerpts from Pat’s devotional on July 17, 2020. Looks like someone might be feeling the heat…

  • We live in a day of instant information. We have the latest news at the tip of our fingers. It doesn’t even matter if that news is true or not, it’s available and we seem to lust for it and for more. The dissemination of information, factual or not, is an unfortunate part of our American society. We can even give the salivating world information about our own lives, sometimes in way too much detail. Very little thought is given as to the outcome or consequence of this information. Sometimes there is a great deal of thought given for the destruction of others.
  • Have you ever thought about what it is that drives you to want to hear and pass on to others some juicy information about someone else? We are given to this by the corruption of the nature within us. Slander and gossip are always meant to diminish and tarnish the reputation of the person we’re talking about.
  • …what is the godly response to information that we receive from others. First, cut it off before it gets told. It’s okay to be rude and cut the slanderer off. It will keep you from becoming party to the sin that accompanies their loose lips. Second, if you are witness to something that is done or said which must be addressed, go to the person yourself. Don’t go to others with the information unless you’re asking for help from a pastor on how to address this (don’t expect the pastor to do your work for you since you’re the one who witnessed it). Third, never go to the one being slandered with third hand information. Confront the one who witnessed it so that they will address it. Fourth, if you are not part of the solution, stay out of it. It doesn’t concern you
  • Aren’t you thankful that God doesn’t tell others all that you’ve done? Think about how shameful you would feel if you thought that God had revealed your sin to others, and that they were telling others about your sin. God is merciful and forgiving.

I wrote a post on this subject titled Slander or an Inconvenient Truth?  I believe that Pastor Pat needs to read his Bible a little more carefully. Slander is a lie, not an inconvenient or personally embarrassing truth. I believe that Julie is telling the truth and that she is telling the truth in order to bring a godly change in the church. Child abuse should always be reported to the authorities. Always…

Julie reported the 2 pastors at Cross Walk to ACBC’s Scott Stuart

She filed a formal complaint to ACBC against Pastors Pat and Tim in September 2020. She began an email correspondence with Stuart Scott at that time,

Who is Stuart Scott?

According to ACBC’s website

ACBC’s Director of Membership Services and a professor of biblical counseling at The Master’s University in Santa Clarita, CA.

Uh oh…given his affiliation, his response would likely be pastor-centric and it was.

Here is Julie’s report of the process

My complaint addressed the dangerous counsel I had received regarding the oppressive things happening in my marriage and how I was told not to go to authorities for violent incidents with my husband. However, my biggest concern was that Pastor Pat had told me on multiple occasions not to report to CPS the fact that we knew Ann was locked in her room with a rope tying the door shut and our other concerns about her mistreatment. I sent Stuart Scott all of the information and evidence I had to prove my case. I including emails from Pastor Tim telling me that all sin is to be dealt with within the church, phone records of when I called Pat with the information about Ann being roped in her room and more.

In early November, I hadn’t heard anything so I emailed Stuart. He told me he received a response from Pat and Tim and that they “deemed it unwise” to send it to me at that time. I guess that means it’s a secret.

Stuart said he needed more information from them.

Another month went by, and finally, Stuart emailed and told me that a committee including board representation and an ACBC lawyer established their evidence. Basically, since Cross Walk Church had it in their policies that they report to the authorities, they were not going to hold them accountable for anything. The email said this:

-“At this time, there is no viewable evidence or collaborating testimony by witnesses that can clearly establish negligence in the 2 cases brought by the complainant.”

There is more to it, but for the sake of brevity, suffice it to say that I responded to that with a lot of questions and clarifying facts. They seemed to be making light of the amount of time that had gone by before I involved CPS. So I stressed that I did not report this to CPS until TEN MONTHS LATER when I left the church in September, 2019. Ten months!

(Julie) I closed my email with this,

“Where is the concern for the ones who have been harmed in all of this? Is there no humility at all? Is there no remorse at all? Not even now that the truth of what was happening to those children has come to light? Is everyone just going to lawyer up to protect themselves? Can no one accept any responsibility at all without pushing the blame on CPS or on anyone else that they can? Because that’s all I see happening here. As Christians, isn’t it out job to protect the weak? And to expose sin? Instead, people who are hurting are silenced or not given a voice at all. People are shunned who tell the truth. They are further victimized by the very people who claim to have been placed in their position by God to help them. What a horrible representation of Jesus.

Then I sent the email to not only Stuart, but in an effort to be completely transparent, I sent it to the pastors at Cross Walk as well as the deacons and other counselors.

ACBC’s Stuart Scott blames Julie, not the pastors!

Julie continues:

Of course I didn’t hear back from anyone from Cross Walk, but here is Stuart’s response…it’s quite interesting.

First, he quoted a bunch of their standards and policies and told me how much they represent Jesus.

Then, came this quote from their ACBC standards that Stuart included:

“If there is a claim of, the observance of, or clear reasonable cause to suspect the emotional, physical or sexual abuse of a child with whom Counselor comes into contact *or who is associated with someone to whom Counselor is in contact with,* reasonable measures may be taken to ensure the child’s protection and to fulfill the legal mandate to report such harm to the appropriate governmental protection agencies.”

This right here shows that Pastor Pat had a DIRECT responsibility to report the abuse of Ann G. to authorities according to ACBC’s own standards. I was being used as a scapegoat. They are clearly blame shifting his responsibility.

This sounds very much like a threat from ACBC’s Scott. Is this how they *support* their *certified* counselors.

Then Stuart said this in the same email:

“I think that I should also take the opportunity to be sure you are clear about reporting. You said: “I did not report this to CPS until TEN MONTHS LATER when I left the church in September, 2019.”

The underlined portion of our Standard of Conduct IX indicates that your reasoning for not reporting does go against Scripture and our Standards, which require that if any authority is telling one to go against what God requires, he or she are to “…obey God rather than man.” (Acts 5:29). Since the law requires that a counselor report a concern immediately, you were not in compliance with the laws of the state nor ACBC Standards during your time of not reporting. *I thought this would be information you would want to know for discreetness going forward.*  Hopefully, (and we rather assume) this has since been clearer to you, for your protection and that of others.

I immediately felt threatened. To me, that said, “you better be silent or you will be the one in trouble.” Was Stuart really intimidating me into shutting up? Yes, I think so.

I replied one more time. I told him that I was glad he agreed that this was something that should be reported. I said I wasn’t hiding from my responsibility here and that I was looking forward to him answering the rest of my questions. There has been no reply.

Final Thoughts

There is absolutely no way that Julie received any training that would have helped her to understand the complexity of the abuse that was occurring. ACBC’s Scott should have supported Julie, not threaten her. This is deeply disturbing to me.

  • Pastor Pat didn’t want to report the Gutenbergers and Scott is covering for the pastors.
  • ACBC will not support their *counselors.*
  • ACBC training is inadequate as I have discussed before
  • ACBC does not believe in confidentiality and pastors are to be alert when there is recurrent sin which Julie did. (See the list of posts on the matter in Part 1.)
  • ACBC should apologize to Julie who did her best with the poor training she received.
  • The pastors would apologize to Julie for not doing their job in reporting the abuse.
  • Is the media aware that this church may have covered up abuse?
  • Is ACBC aware that they may also be covering up the pastors who failed to report? is the media aware of this?
  • I believe that ACBC counselors are not *competent to counsel* and churches should be aware that they are delving into a murky area.
  • ACBC, Master University, and 9 Marks are authority driven organizations.
  • Cross Walk’s rejection of psychology is dangerous and this situation is indicative of that.
  • People should not expect that ACBC training will be adequate. Never forget. ACBC has lawyers. I think their counselors should have them as well.

Let’s let Julie sum this up.

I am no longer an ACBC certified counselor. I can no longer be partners with them. (Eph. 5:7) “Therefore do not be partners with them.”

I heartily agree with her actions and the sentiment expressed.

Comments

Julie’s Story Part 2: Shame on ACBC and Cross Walk Pastors. They Failed Julie and Then Blamed Her For Not Reporting Child Abuse Sooner — 72 Comments


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    Sigh.


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    “how child abuse can be overlooked in this church which stresses ACBC counseling”

    Thank you, Julie, for sharing and for advocating for the children who were tortured in their one and only home, by their very own parents.

    Jesus loves children & young people.

    Not Jesus’ love:
    -the ACBC outfit
    -the ACBC pastors, and
    -the parents who shelter their evil treatment of their own children under the umbrella of ACBC as they co-dependently tithe to their “don’t report” criminal behavior pastor.

    Beyond this network, is the greater network of pastors & church leaders who are aware of this in their fellow churches and DO NOTHING! WRONG!

    I’m old enough to remember when Dear Abby said, “Report to the rabbi, priest, pastor …” Boy, did she have THAT wrong. Useless advice.

    I was thinking about this today. Mums the word in the church at large regarding advocacy for women under DV, children under authoritarian abuse & neglect, and young people that are violated.

    Remembering when a church applauded a child rapist while shunning the witness (victim, survivor).

    Thanks, TWW, for hammering away at this, putting up red flags, advocating, and sounding the alarm.

    God is bigger and better than this. Whom do we serve? In action (words don’t count).


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    Sweet lord Jesus. Those poor children. I simply cannot fathom.

    Julie seems to be the only person who has acted with integrity in this whole tragedy.


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    From the church’s webpage regarding psychology: “The DSM-IV (the diagnostic manual for psychology) describes depression in great detail without any proof that it is caused by a medical condition.”

    “Proof” is such a curious word. I wonder what “proof” they offer that God created the world in six days.


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    “At that point, [Julie] reported her concern to Child Protective Services who apparently did nothing.”

    Not a surprise.


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    “Pastor” Pat knew enough about Gabe & Lisa’s treatment of the children BEFORE Julie came to him, b/c he knew about what happened at their last church. IMO that makes him even more responsible. He made a very deliberate and conscious choice to not alert CPS because of ACBC & Crosswalk Church’s views on psychology – why?

    1. Reporting to CPS means forensic (psychology) interviews for the children
    2. Admission that the church couldn’t fix it’s own problems within with the Bible alone, which is what ACBC is all about, right?

    What happened at Crosswalk is horrific, but I suspect not uncommon in these authority-driven 9Marks churches.


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    Anna,

    Great comment.


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    Cynthia W.,

    If you read the new reports, the boy(assuming its Matt) called his grandmother who called the authorities. CPS then did something. CPS is often overwhelmed with cases. I called one locally and they said they wouldn’t even take a report. I have never done that in 12 years of blogging. I fear that will be the next case in the news.


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    Wild Honey,

    I couldn’t believe their position paper. I’m thinking about doing a separate post on this nonsense which, apparently, is endorsed by ACBC and therefore just fine with SBTS where ACBC has a home.


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    Wild Honey:
    Sweet lord Jesus.Those poor children.I simply cannot fathom.

    Julie seems to be the only person who has acted with integrity in this whole tragedy.

    I hope to God that the people who abused those children so cruelly sit in jail for a good long time.


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    The abuse is horrifying. It reminds me not a little of the Turpin family. Those poor kids.


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    dee: CPS is often overwhelmed with cases.

    I can believe it.


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    [Part One says that Cross Walk Church was SBC before turning independent Reformed Baptist some years back. Actually, the church from its founding in 1971 was associated with GARBC (Northern Fundamentalist Baptist group), until departing GARBC in 2012 to go whole hog Reformed Baptist]

    Pastor Pat announcing in late 2011 that he wanted elder rule:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWnCGFQDN6I

    “We as a church currently are congregational rule, that means that major decisions of the church get voted on by the church people, the members of the church. I have come under the conviction that that is not a biblical model that we should follow.”

    “The reality is, that there are many carnal Christians as well as outright fakers, who have no idea what the direction of the church should be…congregational rule only leads to divisiveness”

    “Elder rule is the only clear biblical model for church government…Elders, not the congregation, rule the church…the tail doesn’t wag the dog, the dog wags the tail”

    “Leadership is always appointed, never elected. Leadership is put into position to lead, not to become subject to the congregation. They are to lead the congregation.”

    “The church gets involved not as a voting entity or power, but as a confirming or ratifying power. They simply are there to support the decision already made by the Elders. Not to vote on it, but to support the decision already made by the Elders.”


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    Oh, church’s name was changed too, from Emmanuel Baptist Church to ‘Cross Walk Church’


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    Jerome: “The reality is, that there are many carnal Christians as well as outright fakers, who have no idea what the direction of the church should be…”

    And when those “carnal Christians” and “outright fakers” end up in leadership, what then, Pastor Pat?


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    Jerome: Elders, not the congregation, rule the church…the tail doesn’t wag the dog, the dog wags the tail”

    A classic “Inner Ring” formulation.


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    How do these pastors and leadership of ACBC sleep at night?! This is horrifying and evil, imho.


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    Jerome,

    In other words they want an autocratic and dictatorial form of church government.
    And then claim that it has a ‘Biblical’ mandate to boot.


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    Divorce Minister: How do these pastors and leadership of ACBC sleep at night?!

    When you’re convinced that you have the mandate of heaven via the Bible, you can sleep through anything.


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    Jerome,

    I’d love some more information on this form of church government. I recently left my church because it was elder-ruled, elder-led. It essentially meant that elders were the ultimate authority, they appointed themselves, and they were accountable to no one.

    I couldn’t find any info in what I would consider legitimate sources that even mentions this type of government. Where did it come from? It has more similarities to a cult than a church, in my opinion.

    Just to be clear, the pastors/elders at my former church are good guys. I just couldn’t be in a church like that.


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    The comment on the DSM not having any proof depression has a medical cause is beyond concerning. DSM does not say there is a strictly medical cause -except in rare cases when it is due to a medication or medical problem or of course is a bipolar depression- instead depression is usually due to the psychological, social, biological and spiritual environment the individual is in. While biological can have an affect biology is not the only factor, just as type II diabetes is not due strictly to biological factors. Cross Walk has a complete misunderstanding of how the DSM views depression. Proof is fundamentally the wrong word because the how/why of how depression happens is usually different from case to case

    Secondly, in most states the Pastor has the duty to report not Julie. He can end up in legal trouble. Perhaps that’s why he’s trying to push it all back on Julie

    Dee -one last comment. In SC DSS cannot tell you if they are took action on your report. I would VA is similar. If they would not allow any report, you may want to call the local police department on the weekend. In SC they have some jurisdiction for reports that occur on the weekend. I honestly don’t understand all the details. There is also likely a whistleblower number you can call as at least to me, refusing to take a report is something to blow the whistle on.


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    To clarify I somehow thought this church was in Virginia. Please substitute Wisconsin each time I said Virginia


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    As someone who has recently encountered an ACBC heavy church, the facts are horrifying. We left this church due to the significant emphasis on sufficiency of scripture, the ACBC theses by the Heath Lambert, and the poor yet pompous view and dismissal of the DSM by ACBC and the leaders of that congregation we visited. It is riddled with sadness and piety along with legalism. God help people who think this method is the only way of counsel.


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    Paul K,

    I think what matters even more than model of governance is the character of the people in leadership.

    I was in two churches like the one you describe. Both ended up being cult-like.

    Bookending those experiences was a church that had a kind of a hybrid model. Church was led by elder board (of whom senior pastor was member), and congregation approved the annual budget, approved of senior pastor hire, and both nominated and approved of elders (who were vetted by elder board). Elders had term limits. My husband and I served on the missions committee and observed that stuff only really got done if the senior pastor was on board, but the church was definitely more of a benevolent dictatorship than not.

    We returned to this church after our two cult-like experiences, despite differences in theology, because we wanted to be somewhere safe. Unfortunately, there was a leadership transition. The new senior pastor was more interested in exerting control and what turned out to be a one-sided “accountability,” so we left.

    My best church experience was actually at an elder-led church, but one in which leaders were accountable to outside denominational authority. However, as the Catholic church has shown us, even this model is not fail-safe. And technically speaking, Capitol Hill Baptist Church (of Mark Dever / 9marks fame) is congregational. So…

    What would you consider a “legitimate source?”


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    Friend:
    Sigh.
    Huh? Sigh?


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    Former GARBC?


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    Wild Honey,

    “Legitimate” sources was Zondervan’s “Who Runs The Church?”

    The church I left was actually my best church experience. But after reading the bylaws, it made no sense to me. The character of both pastors is high, but literally everything goes through them and they’re not accountable to a denominational authority. It frustrates me because I’d like to stay, but I know in my heart AND mind it’s not a healthy government. I brought it up to them and was stonewalled. After that, there’s no one to go to. I feel bad because I think it’s an obviously very unhealthy structure, and I can’t imagine it will help the pastors’ growth. What’s puzzling is that neither one seemed to understand the bylaws – they even tried to argue they were congregationally approved. But this is obviously not the case – there’s no congregational voting.

    This is kind of a business model where a person can appoint themselves the president of a company after filing the right paperwork with the government, but it doesn’t seem to be a church model.


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    Saf but too true.

    Muff Potter: When you’re convinced that you have the mandate of heaven via the Bible, you can sleep through anything.


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    jojo,

    General Association of Regular Baptist Churches


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    jojo: Huh? Sigh?

    That was my initial reaction to the story.


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    Paul K: Just to be clear, the pastors/elders at my former church are good guys. I just couldn’t be in a church like that.

    I’ll accept your judgment that the pastors and elders are currently good guys. If you don’t mind sharing, what caused you to leave?


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    Friend,

    I left because the bylaws concentrated all power in the pastors hands. They had authority over the budget, bylaws, pastoral appointments, etc… without any accountability and no need to consult or inform or get the permission of the congregation or anyone else to do these things. No written job responsibilities and no one to evaluate them besides themselves.

    I couldn’t imagine how that wouldn’t one day prove disastrous. In fact, I believe it was harmful already for many reasons.


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    Paul K: I couldn’t imagine how that wouldn’t one day prove disastrous. In fact, I believe it was harmful already for many reasons.

    Agreed. Silencing every member of a congregation is always a poor idea. Also, bullies thrive in closed systems, and they are drawn to them. The more thoughtful leaders often leave, because they do not want to dominate, or they get abused and dissed, or feel ineffective, or don’t want to lend their good names to the group, or they resign in protest, or or or…


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    Friend,

    You nailed it. I felt ineffective and powerless.

    I’m still hopeful the pastors will one day see what I’m talking about, but I’ve done all I can do.


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    Paul K: everything goes through them and they’re not accountable

    Parallels a bad marriage arrangement, set up for imbalance from the get go. Don’t volunteer for this. DV will follow.
    Or dangerous governance, as described by Ruth Ben-Ghiat in her “Strongmen” book. Don’t vote this in – they rule over & won’t leave.
    Takes a village to set up this type of dynasty in the church. The idol worshipers are complicit. “We” need to stop. Just stop this.


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    Concerned20,

    If you would ever like to tell you story (you can do it anonymously) let me know.


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    Paul K,

    I recentlyt left big mega churches-nondenominational and SBC. I have found the set up in the LCMS church I attend pretty good. The two pastors are the elders. However, they have a leadership council which is made up of the heads of all the ministry-both men and women. This works exceedingly well. The pastors are very oriented to the thoughts and needs of the congregation. basically, everyone gets along. I was actually surprised to see this, given my long term experience in evangelicalism.


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    Paul K,

    I think you are wise. Did you have to sign a membership covenant/contract?


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    dee: a leadership council which is made up of the heads of all the ministry-both men and women. This works exceedingly well. The pastors are very oriented to the thoughts and needs of the congregation. basically, everyone gets along.

    Not a dynasty. Nor a hierarchy with one guy at the top. Lateral balance. Multiple gifts contributing with collaboration.
    Under the authority of Jesus; He doesn’t share His position with men (or women).


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    http://www.cwcappleton.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Statement-of-Faith-2014.pdf

    Cross Walk Church Statement of Faith, Section 13

    “(g) The form of church government for Cross Walk Church shall be a plurality of
    biblically qualified elders according to 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:6-9 (see
    “21 Qualifications for Elders”). Elder candidates will be appointed by the
    council of elders after they have undergone a time of testing. (2 Corinthians 8:22)”

    “(h) On all matters of instruction, membership, policy, government, discipline and finances, the decision of the council of elders following the Word of God is
    final. (Hebrews 13:17).”


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    Divorce Minister,

    I have been writing about ACBC for a long time. In my opinion, it is a shoddy, nonscientific and dangerous group. By nonscientific, they do not seem to recognize any of the advances in the fields psychiatry and neurobiology etc. I did a couple of posts about their training. They recommend a book by CJ Mahaney.


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    Jerome,

    Jerome: the decision of the council of elders following the Word of God is
    final. (Hebrews 13:17).”

    They make an assumption. That is that the elders are following the *word of God.* That is what got them into this mess.


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    dee: They recommend a book by CJ Mahaney.

    “Just like Dianetics, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”


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    Paul K: I left because the bylaws concentrated all power in the pastors hands. They had authority over the budget, bylaws, pastoral appointments, etc… without any accountability and no need to consult or inform or get the permission of the congregation or anyone else to do these things. No written job responsibilities and no one to evaluate them besides themselves.

    “I Got Mine,
    I Got Mine,
    The world’s the Way It’s Meant To Be,
    I Got Mine…

    “I Got Mine,
    I Got Mine,
    I DON’T WANT A THING TO CHANGE
    NOW THAT I GOT MINE!”
    — Glenn Frey, “I Got Mine”


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    dee,

    I signed a membership covenant, but I ended my membership before bringing up these issues. I wrote out a short letter (modeled after the letter provided on this website – but I added a short clause saying I was not under church discipline) and then had a pastor sign it. Then, freedom!

    I think both pastors sincerely believe they are operating under a legitimate and healthy church government structure. And they’re reasonably healthy, and so is the church, in many areas (as far as I know).

    It could be the transition to healthy church governments that more church members may demand following the reckoning that is happening in the church is going to take time and what I’ve experienced will be repeated many times over in many ways. It takes a while for people to change their minds.


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    Jerome,

    So weird.

    A principle of legitimate authority is that appointments to positions of authority are ALWAYS given by those in a higher place of authority. In congregational churches that appointment is given by the congregation though a vote – the congregation IS the highest authority. Absent of living apostles and direct revelation of God (neither of which I believe exist today), Congregationalism places the discernment of God’s will in the congregation. I think it’s best to let as many people as possible have a say in discerning God’s will, instead of a couple people at the top. Not for every minute decision (like the carpet color), but for truly meaningful decisions that are urgent and important for the health of the church.

    I can live with being a lone vote of dissension because at least my vote counts.

    I think denominationalism provides similar structures for healthy appointments and accountability.


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    Paul K: authority

    When Israel wanted a king, God was not on board. They got their way, & the rest is history.

    One can never overestimate the damage of a human authority with overreach. The possibilities are a black hole.

    War lords and wingnuts. With followers and sycophants. Evil.

    IMHO, adult followers propping up the pied piper(s) are complicit.


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    Should child abuse be dealt with within the church?

    NO. NEVER!

    The church is not qualified to deal with child abuse. They have proved that fact over the centuries.


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    Bridget,

    Churches do have a part in dealing with it, through reporting crimes, protecting victims, preventing further abuse, etc. I’m sure you agree but wanted to point this out, since openness is sorely lacking.


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    Friend,

    It should not be dealt with “IN” the church is the operative point. It needs to go immediately outside the church to law enforcement and CPS authorities.

    And from my perspective, the church should keep their hands out of child abuse except for reporting to authorities.


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    Bridget,

    Well, my case (less serious than many, and I was a teen rather than a little child) was handled silently. The church would have benefited from an open discussion. Even I had to piece together the very slight consequences. No other victims were identified. The congregation had at least two malefactors.

    Silence protected my reputation… and the assailant’s.


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    This was our families church for about 5 years. I do not even know what to say here. SO many memories, that I try to forget. We were around when the church decided to go “elder-rule”. We were one of the families that left (before this family/abuse were there or happened). About a year and half ago, I was sought out by several ladies to talk about my story and why we left Crosswalk. I found out that indeed it was not just me or my family that went through awful church abuse/neglect/bullying. One of them was Julie. Our eyes were opened, and we discussed what our duty as Christians are/were or can be. We sat tearing up and crying. I can honestly say that I am fearful for those friends that still attend there (most we cannot speak with, because they were told never to acknowledge or speak to us again). To say it is “like” a cult is an understatement.


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    Paul K,

    Yes!

    We saw this in one church, where every decision went through the senior pastor. It caused burnout, both in him (overextended) and in others (he was not gifted in administration but thought he was, and this created extra burden on support staff to cover for his lack of planning). It created an infantile dependence among ministry leads, who couldn’t make their own decisions but always had to double-check with him. A year after he left the church, it folded. Covid probably hastened the demise, but I could tell already when we were there that this was simply not sustainable long term. When the entire ministry is centered around one person (unless that person is Jesus), there is little to keep others around when that person leaves.


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    Wild Honey,

    Wow, so similar.

    In this church there is a bifurcated doctrinal statement: a membership statement that’s very basic and then a teaching statement cut and pasted from GCC, MacArthur’s church, with some reasonable omissions (like not taking a hard stance on premillenialism).

    I think this creates a dynamic where people join, like me, under the doctrinal statement, and don’t really know the teaching statement (because it’s not taught in membership classes).

    Then, if anyone is a leader, I think the two current pastors feel like in order to maintain doctrinal purity in the leadership they’ve got to vet people to the Nth degree regarding the teaching statement. But that’s not the doctrinal statement under which people joined the church!

    So, very little delegation of authority, very few people they trust to be committed to the teaching statement, and…it just doesn’t work very well.

    I’m going to opt out of future conversations under this post just because I’m not sure this convo fits the theme of the original blog post. I feel like I’m hijacking it or something. Peace!


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    PTSDchurchmember: they were told never to acknowledge or speak to us again

    Say what? A local church controls the participants’ social lives around normal other people (not mentioning predators & pedophiles here – but in any case, some churches actually shelter these dangerous types).


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    Paul K,

    You’re fine. 🙂


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    Ava Aaronson: but in any case, some churches actually shelter these dangerous types).

    Yes they do, and sooner or later when the poo-poo really hits the fan with a high profile case of child abuse (sexual and/or other), I hope to God that those who didn’t report it and even helped cover it up go down for complicity.


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    PTSDchurchmember: (most we cannot speak with, because they were told never to acknowledge or speak to us again).

    I thought only the Amish and fringe/borderline cult sects like SDA’s. Wow! definitely a cult.


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    Anna,

    Anna,
    Great comments, and I have seen point “2” play out many times in other situations in “conservative/fundamentalist/authoritarian” organizations. When one takes an extreme position, in this case Bible only, non of that secular humanist physiology and your extreme view “fails”, your only answer is to cover up, bully, etc… you can not admit failure of your position… because everything will come crashing down..


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    I have seen some of those posts in the past. If I am not mistaken, this is the same group supported by Mark Driscoll’s Mars Hill Church crowd. So, I have my own familiarity there.

    There’s clearly a strong anti-intellectualism going on in this group. It is dangerous as you rightly point out.

    dee:
    Divorce Minister,

    I have been writing about ACBC for a long time. In my opinion, it is a shoddy, nonscientific and dangerous group. By nonscientific, they do not seem to recognize any of the advances in the fields psychiatry and neurobiology etc. I did a couple of posts about their training. They recommend a book by CJ Mahaney.


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    Friend: Silence protected my reputation… and the assailant’s.

    I’m really sorry for what happened to you. Abuse is horrific.

    I’m not advocating silence in any way. I don’t understand where you see that in what I’m saying. I’m advocating contacting authorities for the purpose of helping the abused and stopping the perp. Churches are not qualified to help the abused or deal with the perps.


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    Bridget: Churches are not qualified to help the abused or deal with the perps.

    We’re in agreement. I’m just saying that both things need to happen: report to the police, and also work within the congregation for disclosure and healing.

    Otherwise a crime could be reported, but the victim shunned or silenced or blamed or left alone.


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    Paul K,

    “I’m going to opt out of future conversations under this post just because I’m not sure this convo fits the theme of the original blog post. I feel like I’m hijacking it or something. Peace!”
    ++++++++++

    seem to me that that circumstances in what is reported in the posts at TWW touch on a number of factors and issues — it may seem off-topic to dialogue about them, but they are relevant. i find the conversations very helpful.


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    Ava Aaronson,

    Yes. Some my very close friends. After we left, one such friend said, “I shouldn’t be talking to you, but want to help you”. As in … let me help you show you that YOU are wrong and sinful. Since then, that same said friend was one of those ladies that came to me with concerns and wanting out of that church.


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    Succy,

    Right? I thought shunning was for the Amish community as well. Guess I was wrong. Thought control can happen anywhere. Sad


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    PTSDchurchmember: Thought control can happen anywhere.

    Yes, but it is designed into some systems. Other systems are designed to reduce the likelihood that thought control will take hold.


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    Friend,

    Key concept… is “system designed to enforce thought control” or does it encourage independent thinking…. unfortunately, most people seem to not want to have to “think for themselves”… that is to much work! …. which then sets up autocrats that are more than willing to tell you what you should think..


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    PTSDchurchmember,

    I am so sorry. That is such a helpless feeling.


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    elastigirl,

    In that case, I will echo Paul K’s observation that doctrinal purity was very prized in the church I was discussing; the senior pastor spent years training/vetting his fellow elders. Yet of the four who were there when we left, one left because of the strain on his family (seven young children), one left after he and his wife separated (they later reconciled), a third left under extremely shady circumstances, and the fourth was the one who closed the church after the senior pastor moved on. So… doctrinal purity only went so far there.


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    PTSDchurchmember: can honestly say that I am fearful for those friends that still attend there (most we cannot speak with, because they were told never to acknowledge or speak to us again)

    I believe this is called “Dispensing of (Non-)Existence”.

    Or doubleplusunperosn…


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    Jeffrey J Chalmers: unfortunately, most people seem to not want to have to “think for themselves”… that is to much work! …. which then sets up autocrats that are more than willing to tell you what you should think..

    “You have been believers so long now that you ought to be teaching others. Instead, you need someone to teach you again the basic things about God’s word. You are like babies who need milk and cannot eat solid food…” – from Hebrews 5

  72. Pingback: Association of Certified Biblical Counselors and Southern Baptist Theological Seminary: People With Delusions May Be Faking It and Christians With Schizophrenia Are Probably Not Christians! | The Wartburg Watch 2021