{Updated} Julie’s Story, Part 1: Of Domestic Abuse, Association of Certified Biblical Counselors, and Cross Walk Church, Appleton, WI

“Each time a woman stands up for herself without knowing it possibly, without claiming it, she stands up for all women.” — Maya Angelou


Update 1/27/21: Thanks to Jerome- a TWW reader who knows far more than I do.

The church was never part of the SBC. It was part of the General Association of Regular Baptist Churches.

The church was GARBC from its founding in 1971:
“…began Emmanuel Baptist Church, Appleton, Wisconsin, in October 1971”
until it left GARBC in 2012:
scroll down for churches that withdrew from GARBC in 2012: “…Emmanuel Baptist Church (Appleton, Wis.)”

This will be a two-part story, focusing on what I continue to perceive as the inadequacies and dangers of ACBC counseling aka *biblical counseling. It is the story of one woman, Julie Zepnick, who endured an abusive marriage and received said counseling from her church. However, it gets more in-depth because Julie decided to go through the ACBC counseling training to become certified (of course within the ACBC system) herself. In the midst of her own story, she counseled a family who would be arrested for child abuse. Julie’s story will be helpful (albeit deeply sad and disturbing) in putting a face on several posts I have written on the problems with ACBC counseling. Today is Part One and will deal with Julie’s abuse and her introduction to ACBC.

What is ACBC?

The Association of Certified Biblical Counselors can be found at this link. I believe that this name was coined due to the well-deserved, negative reputation of nouthetic counseling. However, in my opinion (see below) there is no difference between the two except for superficial changes like a glitzy website. Go deeper and one might quickly discover what I believe to be the appalling lack of training for so-called licensure. I call those who receive this training *weekend warriors.* It takes very little to become certified through this group.

As you will see, these counselors quickly find themselves in situations in which they have no business counseling. This is dangerous for the clients, and as you will see, it is dangerous for the counselor since they receive no training and get *blamed* when things go awry.

Warning: these counselors are not licensed through any professional organization. They are NOT, by any stretch of the imagination, true counselors. They do not have any professional training as recognized by any accrediting organization. So the word *certified* (some even use “licensed*) is only recognized in their own little circle (and it is a very small circle, indeed.)

Here are my previous posts in case you missed them.

Julie’s story begins.

Julie and her husband started their marriage in 2006 as nonChristians. This was the second marriage for both and they each had two children from previous marriages/relationships. They went on to have one daughter within their marriage. They began attending a nondenominational church and became Christians. But things were not well between them. Julie began to seek out *biblical* counseling to discover what might be lacking in their marriage. At this time, she had no idea what biblical counseling looked like but she knew they needed spiritual input.

Cross Walk Church in Appleton, Wisconsin

Cross Walk Church is an independent Reformed Baptist Church. It is not a member of the SBC but apparently is a former member. Julie was attracted to this church because it had *biblical* counseling. On the church home page, it is clear they emphasize their commitment to biblical counseling.

We are an Independent Reformed Baptist Church committed to the gospel of Christ by teaching the doctrines of grace and the Solas of the Reformation. We have certified biblical counselors who are committed to the sufficiency and authority of scripture.

On their counseling page, they refer to *biblical counseling as nouthetic counseling, proving my point that ACBC is merely nouthetic counseling in disguise.

While the name is new, the sort of counseling done by nouthetic counselors is not. From biblical times onward, God’s people have counseled nouthetically. The word itself is biblical. The New Testament was written in Greek, from which the noun nouthesia (verb: noutheteo) comes. It is a term used largely by the apostle Paul which is sometimes translated “admonish, correct or instruct.”

They also believe that the Bible actually describes nouthetic counseling. This should be a warning to those seeking such counseling. The Bible is being ill-used as a *prooftext* and that can be dangerous.

Romans 15:14.  In that passage, the apostle was encouraging members of the Roman church to do informal, mutual counseling, something that all Christians today should learn, as well. On the other hand, the leaders of a congregation are to counsel nouthetically in a formal manner as a part of their ministry: “Now we ask you, brothers, to recognize those who labor among you, and manage you in the Lord, and counsel you.”

I would imagine you have heard the following which has been attributed to a bunch of people.

“A text without a context is a pretext for a prooftext”

The church uses three *proof texts* from the Bible to outline three areas of nouthetic counseling.

  1. Confrontation: One Christian personally gives counsel to another from the Scriptures. He does not confront him with his own ideas or the ideas of others. He limits his counsel strictly to that which may be found in the Bible, believing that “All Scripture is breathed out by God and useful for teaching, for conviction, for correction and for disciplined training in righteousness in order to fit and fully equip the man from God for every good task.”2 Timothy 3:16-17) The nouthetic counselor believes that all that is needed to help another person love God and his neighbor as he should, as the verse above indicates, may be found in the Bible.
  2. Concern: Counseling is always done for the benefit of the counselee. His welfare is always in view in biblical counseling. The apostle Paul put it this way: “I am not writing these things to shame you, but to counsel you as my dear children.” (1 Corinthians 4:14) Plainly, the familial nature of the word noutheteo appears in this verse. There is always a warm, family note to biblical counseling which is done among the saints of God who seek to help one another become more like Christ. Christians consider their counseling to be a part of the sanctification process whereby one Christian helps another get through some difficulty that is hindering him from moving forward in his spiritual growth.
  3. Change: Counseling is done because there is something in another Christian’s life that fails to meet the biblical requirements and that, therefore, keeps him from honoring God. All counseling — biblical or otherwise– attempts change. Only biblical counselors know what a counselee should become as the result of counseling: he should look more like Christ. He is the Standard. Biblical counseling is done by Christians who are convinced that God is able to make the changes that are necessary as His Word is ministered in the power of the Spirit. It is their hope to help every interested church develop a nouthetic counseling program that will be a blessing to all of the members of that congregation. The importance of such counseling in churches is underscored by the words of Paul as he described his ministry in Ephesus: “Therefore, be alert, remembering that for three years, night and day, I didn’t stop counseling each one of you with tears.” (Acts 20:31) The regularity and intense nature of Paul’s counsel during his three-year ministry at Ephesus is emphasized by these words. If Paul found it necessary to counsel nouthetically for that entire period, as he said, surely our churches need it, too.How may one learn to counsel nouthetically? There are books and training programs all over the country. Moreover, there is an accrediting organization. The Association of Certified Biblical Counselors (ACBC), can give you more information and help.

Although the church’s website doesn’t say it is a *certified*  training center (meaning ACBC likes them and nothing more,) it is listed on the ACBC website as such. Here is how ACBC describes said centers.

Certified Training Centers serve as the frontline for the biblical counseling movement. Housed in counseling centers, seminaries, and local churches, these vetted and approved institutions are accredited by ACBC and are made up of godly men and women who are experienced, compassionate, and wise biblical counselors. They not only counsel faithfully, but provide quality training leading to ACBC certification.

Julie and her husband began counseling sometime around 2014 at Cross Walk and joined the church.

Julie was excited about counseling. She had experienced problems with her husband almost from the beginning of the marriage. She found he was mean and unhelpful during her pregnancy but had high hopes that *biblical counseling* would lead to a change in their marriage. The church had  *certified* ACBC counselors. Eventually, Cross Walk became an ACBC *certified * training center. Julie walked into this process with total trust.

As time went on, not much changed. There were several incidents of violence that caused Julie to call the police. After one of these incidents, Julie found a handprint bruise on her arm. She did not remember exactly what had happened. Her husband said *It must have been your boyfriend who did it.* Julie didn’t have a boyfriend and there was no reason for her husband to make such a comment. She was in Pastor Pat’s office with her husband and showed the handprint to Pastor Pat. He said, “Yep, that looks like a handprint.” Her husband denied it and Pastor Pat said *Let’s deal with what we know.” Julie was later reprimanded by the pastors, in front of her husband, and told to handle these *incidents* in-house.

Let’s stop here for a moment. It is not uncommon for a victim to have a dissociative episode when being abused. I asked her if the *biblically certified* ACBC counselor, Pastor Pat brought up this possibility. She said he did not. Instead, she was blown off, once again. Any person who experiences a dissociative episode is in danger. Such individuals may have an inability to respond to abuse which leaves them open to even more serious harm by an abusive partner.

This episode is demonstrative of why I consistently speak out about what I perceive to be the deep-seated problems of ACBC biblical counseling.

Her husband was arrested in 2016

One day, there had been some arguments. Julie decided to take her daughter and do some errands, hoping to diffuse the situation. Her husband closed the garage door behind her started car, and unplugged the garage door opener so they couldn’t leave the garage.

This frightened their daughter who reported what had happened to her Sunday school teacher. At this point, the pastor did not block the report to the police, presumably because others knew of the problem. He received 18 months probation, 30 days of jail time, stayed, and a no-contact order. It is my opinion that the police do a better job dealing with a domestic violence situation than do pastors.

Her ACBC *certified* pastors had them in for counsel 2x week and Julie separated from him for 11 weeks. During that time, Julie was reprimanded by the pastors, in front of her husband, and told to handle these *incidents* in-house. Pastor Pat also told Julie something to the effect of  “Even if he hits you upside the head, don’t go to the police, come to us.” Julie asked, “What if my conscience doesn’t allow me to not report it?” Pastor Pat said, “Then you need to submit your conscience to us.”

However, at this point, they said that he claimed he was *sorry* and that Julie had no option but to forgive him. Julie really didn’t want a divorce and decided to accept the pastor’s *counsel.* Around this same time, Julie asked for clarification via email. Pastor Tim told her that there is no need to go to authorities to report such incidents. Instead, he said all sin was to be dealt with within the church.

It appears obvious to me that the church wanted to keep this sort of abuse in-house. It’s also indicative that Julie’s well-being was not their priority.

Julie stayed with him for another 3 long years.

During this time, he often lied to her and was sexually coercive. One night, he lied where he was. When he came home, she asked him if he had been at a bar. In what appears to be typical gaslighting fashion, because Julie was upset and crying,  he asked her, “Did you OD on something? Do I need to call 911?” She has no history of misusing medications. He reportedly said in front of the pastor, “I was really concerned about you. I thought you were having a seizure.”

She developed shingles and back pain which she believes were directly related to the stress she was experiencing. See links to show the relationship between stress and shingles and low back pain.

Separation, divorce, reported sexual abuse of daughter, and strange behavior.

She decided to separate in 2019. The pastors were not supportive of this action. They asked her to wait in making a decision while they intensively counseled her husband for 2 weeks. When she refused, they asked to wait for one week while they intensively counseled him. She agreed but told them that she believed that it would be useless. It was. She, along with her daughter, left him and the church. When she said that she did not believe that counseling would help, one of the pastors told her “Stubbornness is as the sin of witchcraft.” Talk about weird…

In January of 2020, her daughter, who was 12 when they separated, told her mother that her dad touched and rubbed her inappropriately. One night, when the parents were still in the same house, they were all laying down in the bed. The daughter was between them. The father reportedly began rubbing her bottom and upper thigh. She was frightened and didn’t know what to do so she pretended she was asleep. This was reported. to the authorities. The father claimed it was a mistake. He claimed he thought that his daughter was his wife. The daughter has reported feeling suicidal and she is receiving appropriate help at this time.

At one point Julie contacted a local domestic violence shelter. The shelter informed her they could not help because there was a conflict of interest as her husband had contacted them for help. He appeared to claim he was a victim despite evidence of his abuse including a criminal conviction. Finally, in May 2020, the divorce was finalized.

This is not the end of the story: Part 2 on Monday

As the reader might have perceived, the advice of the pastors was highly questionable and somewhat disturbing. We know that they embrace the precepts of nouthetic counseling, and are aided and abetted by ACBC. There is a great deal of stress placed on the authority of leaders in these groups. Yet, when push comes to shove, it appears they will dump on the little guy to get out of trouble. On Monday, you will read about the abuse of a child and the arrest of the parents. It has been in the news. Would it surprise you to know that they were members of this church and that certain incidents were allegedly not reported to the authorities? Julie was counseling the mother and she did not get the support she needed. I bet the reader will see why this entire counseling system is weak and lacking and that ACBC should be ashamed of themselves. We will show you why.

Comments

{Updated} Julie’s Story, Part 1: Of Domestic Abuse, Association of Certified Biblical Counselors, and Cross Walk Church, Appleton, WI — 68 Comments

  1. Pastor Pat sounds like John Piper. I am sorry for what Julie and her children have had to endure. I pray for their safety and hope life improves for them.

  2. Ava Aaronson: “Pastor Pat said, ‘Then you need to submit your conscience to us.’”

    Say what?

    run away!

    Nartin Luther would disagree with this “protestant” pastor. “it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience.”

    I don’t understand what these leaders think they gain by keeping a problem “in house” when it becomes apparent to them that they are not able to meaningfully improve the situation. Is it simply “exercise of power”? Do they enjoy the suffering of the people they aren’t able to help?

  3. Samuel Conner: keeping a problem “in house”

    Cover for the perpetrator (guy) who supposedly is the breadwinner, so that guy perp will keep tithing.

    It’s all about money for the clergy and power for the husband perp. Husband keeps his woman slave under rule, while the pastor keeps the $$$ rolling in.

    Transactional.

    Can be dangerous or even deadly for a woman/wife to join a church. A wife goes to church for help with her marriage? Good luck with that. God save you from this kind of “help”.

  4. Ava Aaronson: “Pastor Pat said, ‘Then you need to submit your conscience to us.’”

    The problem here is really very evident. It is about cultish control. There is nothing biblical about that. Jesus warned about the Pharisees, “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.” Matt 23:15

    Narcissists like to control people. They have no conscience about leveraging God or the Bible to do so. The stuff that they teach and say is so twisted that there is little Christian about it. Anyone can put a sign up on a building that says “Church.” There is much more to it for the place to actually have the Holy Spirit dwelling there. Most of what calls itself churches, and across many denominations, are not if we actually listen to what Jesus taught. The temple in His day was not the place to go to hear truth but religion twisted so that men could steal widows property from them…

  5. “The church uses three *proof texts* from the Bible to outline three areas of nouthetic counseling.”

    After this line, there are paragraphs numbered 1, 2, and 3. 2 and 3 are duplicates except that 2 begins with “Concern,” and 3 begins with “Change.”

  6. Ava Aaronson,

    Woah! Why have I never went there! On this seemingly innocuous level !! I believe all abusers in position even clergy and those who call themselves “Christian” it’s all about control power and MONEY! U may absolutely be right !of this is the case wish we could
    Prove it !!! The underbelly
    Of the “church “!! I have a very personal investment in ACBC was onboth sides of the table as Julie’! I have been discussing her story for OVER A YEAR with her personally ! ACBC needs to be exposed! PLEASE SHARE!!

  7. Cynthia W.,

    So grateful to you. I had to make some last minute corrections and it caused some of the text to disappear. When I uploaded again, I screwed it up!!

  8. Reading through the ACBC website, their beliefs are weird! In their definition of tge afterlife, “every wrong action will be punished, and every good deed will be rewarded.” That’s just straight works-salvation pure and simple. Bizarre!

  9. As near as I can tell, the word “love” appears nowhere on the ACBC website. Not in reference to God, nor in reference to marriage, nor in reference to parenting. How can it be called Christian when it doesn’t even mention love??

  10. I am convinced that there are many disappointed, defeated, doubting, and cynical Christians. Most are still going to church, but their faith no longer brings peace and motivation to their everyday lives. Is so sad that some people only live to dishonor God and hurt innocent people. Julie, you are a loving mother and a wonderful person! The worst deal a woman can get is a liar and abuser. No woman ever deserves that. God’s blessings be always upon you and your children.

  11. Ava Aaronson: It’s all about money for the clergy and power for the husband perp. Husband keeps his woman slave under rule, while the pastor keeps the $$$ rolling in.

    I think it’s also about ego. These churches have leaders that believe they are more special than everyone else and a small number of God’s Elect. Their theology places them on a level with God the Father. If they decide someone should do something, then it should be done. When it’s not, they can’t even believe it.

    New Calvinism really panders to egotistical men and that’s the kind of person it attracts. They are God’s Elect. They are the spiritual heads like God the Father. They are dictators of their tiny kingdoms which God gives them.

  12. Juulie with two u’s: Reading through the ACBC website, their beliefs are weird! In their definition of tge afterlife, “every wrong action will be punished, and every good deed will be rewarded.” That’s just straight works-salvation pure and simple. Bizarre!

    The leaders don’t really believe this applies to them, though, only the peons. If they do something, God must have already approved it because he causes them to do it and he wouldn’t cause them to do anything that he would hate. But everybody else is evil, so God will cause them to do evil things and judge them for it.

    Their theology is so messed up…

  13. I am preparing to go back to school so that I can work towards becoming a licensed counselor. It is going to be a multiple years long process. In my state, these are the requirements to become a Licensed Mental Health Counselor:

    A master’s degree in counseling from a CACREP (Council for Accreditation of Counseling and Related Educational Programs) accredited university. The master’s program includes a 600 hour practicum of clinicals, where you are supervised in getting hands-on experience in a real-world counseling setting.

    After you get your degree, you have to do two more years of supervised experience under the supervision of a Board approved qualified supervisor. The supervision experience must consist of: At least 100 hours of supervision in no less than 100 weeks; 1,500 hours of face-to-face psychotherapy with clients; and,
    1 hour of supervision every two weeks.

    Then you have to pass the National Clinical Mental Health Counseling Examination (NCMHCE) developed by the National Board for Certified Counselors (NBCC).

    You also have to take board-approved courses in state laws and rules, HIV Aids, and domestic violence.

    This is what it takes to become a LICENSED counselor. And this is why you should never trust your trauma to an unlicensed “biblical” counselor who thinks all you need is the Bible and you’ll be just fine.

  14. I went to the website of the Cross Walk Church and under the “Hot Button Issues” I found this question and answer:

    “What place does psychology have in counseling within the church?

    Psychology has no place in counseling within the church. Please see our position statement.”

    Cross Walk Church’s one page position statement can be found here:

    https://www.cwcappleton.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Psychology-and-Counseling.pdf

    The statement ends with this sentence:

    “It is our firm belief that behavior problems can and must be addressed with the Bible since its
    answers are far superior to anything that psychology can offer.”

  15. Todd Wilhelm: “It is our firm belief that behavior problems can and must be addressed with the Bible since its
    answers are far superior to anything that psychology can offer.”

    My good friend Todd, it is my firm belief that this quote is a prime example of exalting the Bible to a place where it is an idol. This is a very weird practice when you think of it but also a very old one. Did not Jesus say to the religious leaders, “You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.” John 5:39-40 This statement is identical to this ideology that Jesus is rebuking. The reality is that Jesus is greater than both the Bible and Psychology. Now He is not against these things, used correctly and in a way that is true. But there is a way to use both that simply brings death. The Bible is a guide, not Life in and of itself. Taking the Bible and whacking people over the head with it does not help anyone. Also replacing it with a different idol does not either. The center of our faith is Christ and nothing else. Not anything near nor far away.

  16. Todd Wilhelm:

    “It is our firm belief that behavior problems can and must be addressed with the Bible since its
    answers are far superior to anything that psychology can offer.”

    Facepalm.

    The Bible says nothing about trauma. Nothing about chemical depression, trauma bonding, triangulation, or core schemas. Just like it says nothing about cancer, or electrical engineering, or geology, or food allergies. This slavish devotion to the Bible as the only handbook for life is destroying people’s lives.

  17. Mr. Jesperson: My good friend Todd, it is my firm belief that this quote is a prime example of exalting the Bible to a place where it is an idol.

    Meredithwiggle: The Bible says nothing about trauma. Nothing about chemical depression, trauma bonding, triangulation, or core schemas. Just like it says nothing about cancer, or electrical engineering, or geology, or food allergies. This slavish devotion to the Bible as the only handbook for life is destroying people’s lives.

    I’ve heard more than one reformed (theologically speaking) pastor talk about God revealing himself through “general” revelation (creation) and “special” revelation (scripture). For example: https://www.ligonier.org/blog/general-and-special-revelation-reformed-approach-science-and-scripture/

    It seems to me that science (including psychology) is the study of God’s creation, his general revelation. While theology is the study of his scriptures, his special revelation.

    Do scientists get some things wrong and some things right? Yup. Do theologians get some things wrong and some things right? Yup.

    Do both sometimes have trouble admitting they get some things right and some things wrong?

    Yup.

    These particular theologians at Cross Walk are doing, I think, the same exact thing they (I imagine) decry in some scientists: worshiping the created instead of the creator, or rather THEIR INTERPRETATION of it.

    I say this as someone who actually reads the Bible and holds to the inerrancy of scripture (but NOT to mankind’s interpretation of it).

    Yes, this idolization is ruining lives.

  18. Juulie with two u’s: In their definition of the afterlife, “every wrong action will be punished, and every good deed will be rewarded.”

    The only snag is, they weren’t the ones subcontracted.

  19. Meredithwiggle: The Bible says nothing about trauma. Nothing about chemical depression, trauma bonding, triangulation, or core schemas … slavish devotion to the Bible as the only handbook for life …

    In a way it does – all those horrifically mixed up characters, and the people that got the butt end of it like Samaritans. The slavishness referred to, consists in crossing a line through the obvious meaning “DON’T” and writing in “DO”.

  20. Wild Honey: These particular theologians at Cross Walk are doing, I think, the same exact thing they (I imagine) decry in some scientists: worshiping the created instead of the creator, or rather THEIR INTERPRETATION of it.

    Bingo on that! They often uses it in the same way that Satan uses it and for the same basic purpose. It has some authority inherent in it so they look to it to leverage it. What a snake like Prof. Krausse does at my alma mater when he attempts to use some science he has learned in order to seduce some lady into bed is identical. With the white-washed septic tanks they are not looking at the Bible to see the truth in it where it exists but on points that they can proof-text, skew and use to get some advantage on someone else. This is why Jesus called them what they did. This is hypocrisy. This is not looking to see who God really is but just leveraging him in order to lord power over others for unjust gain and ego stroking purposes.

    Oh, and it should be noted that Psychology is the softest of all of the sciences because it is the most subjective. There is a crisis going on in it because of a lack of ability to reproduce supposedly “scientific” studies. There is an episode on Scishow Pysche that chronicles this problem. This is because studying the human mind is the most difficult and complex field there is. This should be noted, as you said, so that people do not think too much of it either. Some science is very firm, like Quantum Mechanics and the two theories of Relativity. Others like this cannot be studied the same way. They are apples and oranges and should be treated that way.

  21. Muff Potter:
    Meredithwiggle,

    But that’s just it Meredith, if you’re skilled enough, you can get the Bible to say just about anything you want it to.

    WAR IS PEACE
    FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
    IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
    TWO PLUS TWO EQUALS FIVE!

  22. Muff Potter:
    Meredithwiggle,

    But that’s just it Meredith, if you’re skilled enough, you can get the Bible to say just about anything you want it to.

    Even if you’re not skilled, you can appoint yourself as answer man /woman, play connect the dots on some proof texts, and engage in the ‘did God really say’ plan of attack that has been evident since a couple of chanters after the beginning.

  23. Meredithwiggle: This slavish devotion to the Bible as the only handbook for life is destroying people’s lives.

    It wasn’t like this when I was a kid growing up Lutheran.
    The Bible was enshrined yes, in a lofty place of honor yes, but it was never the magic answer book for all things imaginable as it’s become in some circles of Protestantism today.

  24. d4v1d: The ACBC should not be ashamed. They should be sued out of existence.

    And if the ACBC WAS ashamed (which would mean the ACBC had an actual conscience), they would choose to put themselves out of existence (and there would no longer be an ACBC to be sued).

  25. Muff Potter: The Bible was enshrined yes, in a lofty place of honor yes, but it was never the magic answer book for all things imaginable as it’s become in some circles of Protestantism today.

    I don’t think it really is for them, either. As I felt like JDV implied, they don’t really believe the answers are in the Bible. They believe they, as people, have them because God bestows on them special knowledge that others don’t have, or they believe that keeping problems in-house is beneficial to them.

    So I don’t really think it’s about the Bible at all. The type of people attracted to biblical counseling either believe God is some sort of cosmic vending machine that fixes all problems (for them and those of their choosing), or they are afraid that what really happens in their church will get out and the money will stop coming in.

  26. Muff Potter: Meredithwiggle: This slavish devotion to the Bible as the only handbook for life is destroying people’s lives.

    It wasn’t like this when I was a kid growing up Lutheran.
    The Bible was enshrined yes, in a lofty place of honor yes, but it was never the magic answer book for all things imaginable as it’s become in some circles of Protestantism today.

    That was also my experience growing up Lutheran. Things were pretty well balanced, without running from one extreme to another. I guess Americans find that boring so Lutheranism isn’t too popular. Of course there are Lutherans who get a distorted view of things, but I think Lutherans have a more developed understanding of “Sola Scriptura” than what the fundamentalists have made of it.

  27. Jacob: I think Lutherans have a more developed understanding of “Sola Scriptura” than what the fundamentalists have made of it.

    Very much agreed.
    I live in the Bible belt West, LA, San Diego, extending Eastward through Arizona and into New Mexico. Fundagelicalism is very entrenched here and mostly non-Calvinist.
    Its teachers, mega-pastors and lowly Joe Schmoe alike, can take even the most obscure and obdurate verses in Scripture, establish a connection with even the most innocuous and unrelated things in every day life in the here and now, and blather on about it for at least 40 mins.

  28. Muff Potter,

    I can see San Diego through Arizona, etc. as part of the Bible Belt West. Then again, the first time I visited Palm Springs that was a bit of a culture shock in a non-Bible Belt way.

    Yes, certain learned preachers can really go on a tangent with “Bible prophecy” – hold on to your hat.

  29. Jacob: Yes, certain learned preachers can really go on a tangent with “Bible prophecy” – hold on to your hat.

    And hold onto your wallet too!

  30. ishy: They believe they, as people, have them because God bestows on them special knowledge that others don’t have,

    Isn’t “Gnostic” Koine Greek for “He Who KNOWS Things”?

  31. Muff Potter: Its teachers, mega-pastors and lowly Joe Schmoe alike, can take even the most obscure and obdurate verses in Scripture, establish a connection with even the most innocuous and unrelated things in every day life in the here and now, and blather on about it for at least 40 mins.

    It’s not only lawyers who can talk for three hours and say absolutely nothing.

  32. ishy: The counseling and small groups can be used to indoctrinate, but also to gather information. The information is passed to higher ups and used publicly if a member gets out of line.

    JUST LIKE SCIENTOLOGY AUDITING RECORDS!

  33. I have gone through introduction to nouthetic counseling and have read books by ACBC authors. Then I took two classes with CCEF as a part of my personal education not to become ceetified a counselor. Although both institutions hold to biblical counseling, CCEF’s variety seems to be very different in its approach. Did you guys research it? What are your thoughts on this?

  34. I always say that Biblical Counsellors are just like Biblical Surgeons, they don’t have enough information & are not up to the job. No-one should trust them.

    It’s time we stopped accepting the ‘Biblical X’ title as though it has any value whatsoever, except inside a very limited sphere.

  35. ishy: small groups

    But those are so useful to see who is material to be promoted to do valued good things for the cause.

    (My subliminal sack of potatoes act was useful too.)

  36. Mee: Although both institutions hold to biblical counseling, CCEF’s variety seems to be very different in its approach.

    It is still scornful in the area of psychology, etc.

    https://www.ccef.org/about/mission-beliefs-history/beliefs-history-model-of-care/

    Here is a link to a page on the matter. They use Freud as the devil as opposed to seeing what he did contribute.Today, modern psychologists (and other licensed professionals) read the latest research on understanding issues surrounding depression, psychosis, etc.

    For example, here is some research ongoing in the area of pedophilia at the NIH

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4478390/

    I have gone through counseling myself. I consulted an MSW and an MD (spuchiatrist.) Both were devoted Christians.

    My advice (since you asked): Enroll in an MSW course and get some real training.

  37. d4v1d:
    The ACBC should not be ashamed. They should be sued out of existence.

    Years ago, I thought lawsuits were *unbiblica..* I have changed my mind. It appears the only thing that rogue churches and parachurch groups understand get is getting sued. The almight buck speaks.

  38. Meredithwiggle: The Bible says nothing about trauma. Nothing about chemical depression, trauma bonding, triangulation, or core schemas.

    Agreed. I believe that their devotion to the Bible as the cure all is because they don’t want to put in the effort to be a real counselor. It takes work and higher degrees. One can be a Christian, be devoted to Scripture and also be a thoughtful psychiatrist. They are not exclusive of one another.

  39. Todd Wilhelm: The statement ends with this sentence:
    “It is our firm belief that behavior problems can and must be addressed with the Bible since its
    answers are far superior to anything that psychology can offer.”

    They do what lots of groups do when they are trying to *prove* their belief system. In my life I consulted with both an MSW and a psychirtist. Both were Christians. Both used Scripture along with established psych methods. They are not incompatible.

  40. dee: Agreed. I believe that their devotion to the Bible as the cure all is because they don’t want to put in the effort to be a real counselor. It takes work and higher degrees. One can be a Christian, be devoted to Scripture and also be a thoughtful psychiatrist. They are not exclusive of one another.

    I took multiple counseling classes at SEBTS. Only one was required for the MDiv. None of them mentioned trauma, sexual abuse, child abuse or spiritual abuse. They made a bare mention of marriage domestic violence, but it was waved away like it would never happen to anyone pastors counseled and explained away as due to “misunderstanding”. Nearly all problems were defined as “interpersonal conflict” and mild in nature. I had more than enough credits to apply to ACBC, but there is no situation in which I feel those classes were enough for me to counsel others.

    I would never recommend anyone use a pastor or biblical counselor to get counseling. See a licensed therapist!

  41. dee,

    dee,

    Did you just now go to their web-page to check what they are about or did you have any more meaningful engagement with them? Because after reading probably around 10-15 of CCEF books and going through two of their courses, I have never ever found them scornful of anybody. Actually, on several occasions they had us read books by modern psychoterapists like Irvin Yalom, in order to learn and gleen what is good.

    The CCEF page you posted is a description of their “History”, just as it says. For example, they write,

    “CCEF’s early history was largely prophetic and therefore polemic.”

    and also

    “From the beginning, there was always a concern to define what could legitimately be learned from modern psychology, but Scripture provided the orienting “generalizations”: a God-centered view of people and problems and solutions. What was at stake was which source would be primary.”

    Then they write about the shift in the 90’s, among which is: “the importance of the body of Christ and to a more articulate engagement with secular culture.”
    Among their “model of care” they write,

    “We believe in God’s common grace to all humanity, and therefore we can learn from those who do not espouse a Christian or even a theistic worldview. For example, while the fundamental worldview of secular psychology runs counter to Christianity, there are descriptive riches to be found in the writings and teachings of those who have gained case wisdom through their research and care. These materials can enrich our care of those in need and can be useful to us as we continue to develop our biblically-based counseling method.”

    and then they end with this note,

    “We believe that we at CCEF have not “arrived.” We have not fully and clearly expressed all that the Bible has to say about counseling ministry. Therefore, because Jesus tarries and we are not yet what we shall be, we humbly admit that we struggle to consistently apply all that we say we believe. We want to learn and grow in wisdom. We who counsel and teach counseling live in process, just like those we counsel and teach.”

    Anyways, I would recommend not blasting a ministry just because it carries an adjective “Biblical”. Be more nuanced and do not paint with such a large brush. 🙂

    Disclaimer: I do not work nor have worked nor have any connection to CCEF.

  42. Mee: “the fundamental worldview of secular psychology runs counter to Christianity”

    That quote right there is a problem.

    Certain enclaves of Christianity are highly suspicious of psychology, social work, and other valuable fields. In my high school youth group, we were encouraged to go to college but never to take psychology because “it will ruin your faith.”

    If a religion discourages people from understanding the human mind, it is a religion not worth following.

  43. Friend,

    So, would you say that fundamental worldview of secular psychology is equal to that of Christianity? And if not, why would acknowledgement of this mean discouraging people from studying it?

    For example, I can say that fundamental worldview of secular philosophy runs counter to Christianity, yet still acknowledge that I can learn from it and utilize its common grace knowledge for the gloly of God. And if you read the quotes that I wrote, that is exactly what CCEF is saying.
    Their teachers often have PhD’s in psychology or psychiatry, and they made us read secular psychologists.
    For example, Irvin Yalom that I mention is an atheist with a secular worldview. If you read his book Staring at the Sun, a book about fear of death, you will notice that he uses Epicurean approach to death: don’t worry because after death there is nothingness. As a Christian, I notice that his approach to death runs counter to Christianity because of his atheism. At the same time, I learn a lot about his approach to people, about the existance of this existential fear in humans, yes even Christians, and about how to address it.

    Now, I believe this is a lot different than your experience, Friend, at your high school youth group. I would say: go and study psychology, social work… but make sure you ground yourself in firm understanding of Christian worldview and the Bible, so you will be able to plunder the knowledge of common grace and then use it in the context of your work and life for the glory of God.

  44. Mee,

    I do not deny your experience, but I was also “taught” that you should not study most of modern science because it will “wreck your faith”…. I have been a Engineering Professor for 32 years for over 32 years, and I am still here posting, supporting exposing church/“Christian leaders” that are abusing in the name of Christ…. However, some of the fundamentalist that taught me years ago would say my faith was “wrecked” because I am NOT a young earth creationist….

    … and, some of my past Ph.D. students are working on COVID vaccines and COVID therapeutics…. so, if my fundamentalist teacher are consistent, or anyone that still teaches similar theology, should NOT get the vaccine since it is based on that evil, secular humanist, modern biology..

  45. Looks like someone Erased their Hot button topics… (link)

    * Why is our church elder rule?
    * What do we believe about local church membership?
    * What is Cross Walk’s view of church discipline?
    * What is the biblical definition of marriage?
    * What is the biblical response to homosexuality?
    * What place does psychology have in counseling within the church?
    * Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God?

    https://www.cwcappleton.org/info/hot-button-issues/

    Guess you got their attention…

    grin.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6u80XH2iytI

  46. Sòpwith,

    Sopy, they have no idea what;’s coming. Hold on until mid to late next week. They can erase whatever they darn well want. It will not help them.

  47. Friend: Certain enclaves of Christianity are highly suspicious of psychology, social work, and other valuable fields.

    JUST LIKE SCIENTOLOGY!

  48. Friend: How did you know they were secular?

    Because they were atheists. Because they did not adhere to biblical nor Christian counseling.

  49. Jeffrey J Chalmers,

    I agree with you!
    All I want to point out is that there are counselors with adjective “biblical” out there that are open to science, serious about helping people, and lack the abusive-controlling mannerism this web-page exposes. CCEF is one of those places with those kinds of people that shine as bright examples of what biblical counseling should be, even if you disagree with their approach.

  50. Mee: Because they were atheists. Because they did not adhere to biblical nor Christian counseling.

    Mee: CCEF is one of those places with those kinds of people that shine as bright examples of what biblical counseling should be, even if you disagree with their approach.

    Over the years, several people have saved my life. Some were Christian, some were Muslim, some were Jewish, one was a Jain, some were probably agnostic or atheist. They brought a commitment to my survival, for their own deep reasons, and that was enough for me.

    I am uncomfortable with the idea that Christians are the best at things—especially when it is accompanied by cherry picking carefully labeled non-Christian sources to fill in the gaps.

  51. Friend: I am uncomfortable with the idea that Christians are the best at things—especially when it is accompanied by cherry picking

    That.

    Over the years, several people have saved my life. Some were Christian, some were Muslim, some were Jewish, one was a Jain, some were probably agnostic or atheist. They brought a commitment to my survival, for their own deep reasons, and that was enough for me.

    AND you are still alive, which I am grateful for. 🙂

  52. Friend:
    I am uncomfortable with the idea that Christians are the best at things—especially when it is accompanied by cherry picking carefully labeled non-Christian sources to fill in the gaps.

    Not sure what you try to prove here. 🙂

  53. I experienced a very similar story in divorcing my ex husband and I was counseled the same kind of way by this Biblical Counseling. There was no love, the institution of marriage was more important than the people in it. I was told not to tell anyone at church about the divorce because it could split loyalties for those in the church btwn me and my ex husband and damage the church. I kept quiet for almost a year and no one knew about it as I did not want to cause trouble. I was threatened with church court for not listening to them in how I handled my divorce (they wanted me to separate for as long as it took for my ex husband to accept his sin and fix it). They wanted to excommunicate me if they found me guilty for not listening to them at the church court. My ex husband never took any responsibility for anything in it. I left the church’s Biblical counseling and went to a trained Christian counselor outside of their Biblical Counseling model, in order to have as much clarity in my decision and what God wanted for my family as possible. I asked to be removed from church membership rather than face their church court. Once they removed me I was told I could come, but was advised not participate in communion any longer because I would be doing so sinfully, as I no longer had membership in an evangelical church. I only kept attending there for about 6 months as that was my children’s social world and I was moving across country to be with my family once my house sold. It was the most horrible thing to go through all that on top of the divorce. Once I moved I had a couple of my kids suicidal over my husband’s abuse and have been thankful to get free counseling from a city domestic violence counseling. This Biblical Counseling is nothing but a cult, and not at all how God sees divorce, nor how to handle it as a Christian.

  54. L,

    I’m so sorry you went through this. Pastor Pat also wanted to hide my separation from my husband from the rest of the congregation. He said “we need to protect the testimony of Christ”. I told him that was deceitful. But he insisted he didn’t want people thinking that they weren’t doing everything they could to restore the marriage. It makes no sense. It became clear to me that it was about protecting something, but it wasn’t the testimony of Christ.