Biblical Counseling Training: Inadequate Education, Problematic Resources and Questionably Educated Leaders

“When we fail to respond in Christlikeness to the disappointments of life, it’s usually because we’ve forgotten all he has accomplished for us.”― Elyse M. Fitzpatrick, Because He Loves Me: How Christ Transforms Our Daily Life (This is posted as example of the over-simplicity offered by biblical counselors.)

Updated 12/16/2017 to add more info to Elyse Fitzpatrick’s bio which does not change my original assessment.

Today, my sweet foster grandson was admitted to the hospital for a extended stay. My wonderful daughter and son in law care for children who have been seriously wounded. This past week, some of that previous life began to surface and he needed intensive help. He calls me *Mamie* and my husband *Bubbie.* I spent some time visiting him today and would ask you to remember him in prayer. He will be hospitalized over the holidays. Our family is so sad. Some things just don’t get fixed with a lot of love. It takes time and he needs far more than a biblical counselor could offer him.

I want to be totally fair to the organizations which are involved in training biblical counselors so this is the first part of probably several posts on the training. I want to avoid the complaint that I just picked and chose the really juicy ones.

Last week, one commenter critiqued me claiming that I didn’t know the facts. Well, that dog won’t hunt. I am quoting directly from the crème de la crème of the so-called biblical counseling movement (BCM.) I am open to being proved wrong.

This past week, one couple sent me the form that they were required to complete before commencing with biblical counseling. They were so concerned about the intrusive nature of the questions on the form that they sent it to me with permission to print it.They refused the counseling and I think that was wise as you will see when we discuss this form in another post.

I am actively soliciting true personal stories of readers’ experiences with this type of counseling. I would ask that you put together your story in as concise a form as possible. I will get back to you in the New Year. I will try to include all of the stories if it is at all possible.

Dee will be used as the real life guinea pig as an example of a person seeking biblical counseling.

For purposes of many of these posts, I am using myself as the guinea pig. My daughter, Abby, was diagnosed with a large brain tumor when she was 3. At the time, I had a 4 year old daughter and my son was born in between Abby’s two surgeries. She was given an exceedingly poor prognosis and we were also told that brain tumors can come back even beyond 5 years after remission. The doctors informed us that puberty would be the time frame we would need to get through because puberty can sometime *turn on* dormant tumors. So we had to wait many years, each day fearing the tumor would return.

Over time, I developed an anxiety disorder and eventually sought help but I did not do so through biblical counselors. Instead I sought the help of a Christian psychiatrist and a Christian MSW. I also took medication for a period of time and I can truthfully say that I do not experience such anxiety now nor do I still take medication. So, think of my example as we explore the paradigms endemic to the BCM. For example, the focus on sin…

Where to go to get training to become a bonafide (certified) biblical counselor?

Since I am focusing specifically on the oft stated belief of the BCM that *anyone* can be a biblical counselor, I searched for programs that would allow for the average church member to get training. Eventually I will discuss the training they give seminary students.

Pastoral Counseling.Org discusses the requirements for becoming a counselor. Note the focus on sin.

  1. It really is all about sin.

    Becoming a Biblical counselor first and foremost requires studying the Bible and the scriptures. You will need to be very familiar with this text because it will form the basis of your counseling. In many cases, you will need to be able to identify the sin that the person is committing and know which of the different characters or stories in the Bible is the best to use when approaching the person. By drawing parallels between the Bible and the person’s behavior, it’s often easier to help highlight how and why they are acting inappropriately.

  2. As long as you know the Bible, you should be able to counsel.

    Because everything comes from the Bible, there is no educational program or training to undergo to become a Biblical counselor.

  3. You may want to take a training course that is available online and you should join a Bible study. They recommend the following groups.

    These online courses are offered through several different groups, including the Institute for Nouthetic Studies, the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors (ACBC), and the Biblical Counseling Institute.

  4. You need to be a good conversationalist because that is what most of biblical counseling involves.The counselor would be especially proficient in discussing sin.

    You need to be a good conversationalist—much of Biblical counseling is simply talking. This skill can be learned, but until you’re really comfortable talking about faith and sin, especially pointing out someone else’s sin, your counseling may be awkward and, in the end, fairly ineffective.

This organization identifies the following groups as those that train biblical counselors.

So lets’ go on over to the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors, arguably the most well known of the group which has Heath Lambert as the President. They have varying ways for you to become a Biblical counselor. They also have three phases of training in order for a person to get certified to counsel.

Phase One Training at ACBC

1. Basic Training only takes 30 hours.

The lengthy list of lectures, which are available online and in training centers, appears comprehensive at first glance. However, this entire training only takes 30 hours. So how does this shake out? Not well at all.

For example, note that the 3 lectures which involve psychotropic drugs, medical issues and physical illness, are squeezed in amongst over 30 other subjects! Seriously??  This very concerning. Compare this with a psychiatrist who goes through 4 years of medical school and must do another 4 years of psychiatric training. Yet, somehow, biblical counselors are more equipped to counsel a client than a psychiatrist?

I. Orientation to and Dynamics of Biblical Counseling
A. Basics of Biblical Counseling
1. The Need for Biblical Counseling
2. The Definition and Goal of Biblical Counseling
3. Progressive Sanctification
4. Process of Biblical Change
5. Qualifications of a Biblical Counselor
6. Getting to Heart Issues

B. Key Elements in Biblical Counseling
1. Gathering Data
2. Discerning Problems Biblically
3. Establishing Involvement with Counselees
4. Giving Hope
5. Providing Instruction
6. Giving Homework

II. Critical Reflection on Various Theories in Counseling
A. Secular and Integration Theories
B. What Makes Biblical Counseling Biblical?

III. Husband and Wife Relationships
A.  God’s Purpose for Marriage
B.  Roles of the Husband and Wife
C.  Communication
D. Biblical Sexuality

IV. Parent and Child Relationships
A. Goal of Parenting
B. Parental Instruction
C. Parental Discipline

V.  Frequent Issues in Counseling
A. Guilt and Repentance
B. Forgiveness
C. Trials and Suffering
D. Fear and Worry
E. Anger
F. Depression
G. Sexual Sin

VI. Medical Issues in Counseling
A. Physical Illness and Biblical Counseling
B. Psychotropic Drugs and Biblical Counseling

VII. Case Studies
A. Total Casebook, Role Plays, and other Practice Case Discussions

2. Observe a biblical counselor for 10 hours and keep a log.

either in person or via recorded counseling sessions.

3. Grow through reading.

Only 1,000 pages of approved reading is needed.

Increase your understanding of biblical counseling and theology by reading 1,000 pages from our Approved Reading List.

At least 300 pages will need to be from the “Biblical Counseling and Theology” category on the Approved Reading List.
Tip: Be sure to select at least one Systematic Theology from the list to read from. This will be very helpful for you when you write Theology Exam. Also, track your reading as you go by completing the ACBC Reading Log.

What sort of books are on this reading list?

Unfortunately I became quite concerned. Here is the entire list.

Biblical Counseling & Theology

A Theology of Christian Counseling by Jay Adams
A Theology of Biblical Counseling by Heath Lambert
Biblical Doctrine: A Systematic Summary of Bible Truth by John MacArthur and Richard Mayhue Systematic Theology by Louis Berkhof
Systematic Theology by John Frame
Christian Theology by Millard Erickson
Basic Theology by Charles Ryrie
Moody Handbook of Theology by Paul Enns
The Inspiration and Authority of the Bible by B.B. Warfield
Words of Life by Timothy Ward
Created in God’s Image by Anthony A. Hoekema
Power Encounters: Reclaiming Spiritual Warfare by David Powlison
A Fight to the Death: Taking Aim at Sin Within (Strength for Life) by Wayne Mack
Trusting God by Jerry Bridges
God’s Greater Glory by Bruce Ware
When People are Big and God Is Small by Ed Welch

Counseling & Anger

Uprooting Anger by Robert Jones
Anger & Stress Management by Wayne Mack
The Heart of Anger by Lou Priolo

Counseling & Sorrow

Out of the Blues by Wayne Mack
Spiritual Depression by Martyn Lloyd Jones

Counseling & Anxiety

Courage: Fighting Fear with Fear by Wayne Mack
Fear, Worry, and Anxiety by Elyse Fitzpatrick

Counseling & Avoidance

Finally Free: Fighting for Purity with the Power of Grace by Heath Lambert
Addictions: A Banquet in the Grave by Ed Welch
The Heart of Addictions by Mark Shaw

Counseling & Conflict

The Peacemaker by Ken Sande
Unpacking Forgiveness by Chris Brauns
Pursuing Peace by Robert D. Jones

Introduction to Biblical Counseling

The Christian Counselor’s Manual by Jay Adams
How to Help People Change by Jay Adams
Counseling: How to Counsel Biblically by John MacArthur
Seeing with New Eyes by David Powlison
Instruments in the Redeemer’s Hands by Paul David Tripp
The Trellis and the Vine by Colin Marshall and Tony Payne
The Biblical Counseling Movement after Adams by Heath Lambert
Counseling the Hard Cases edited by Stuart Scott and Heath Lambert
Counsel Your Flock by Paul Tautges
Blame It on the Brain? By Ed Welch
How People Change by Timothy Lane and Paul David Tripp
Putting Your Past in Its Place by Steve Viars
Competent to Counsel by Jay Adams
Speaking the Truth in Love by David Powlison

Counseling & Family

Peacemaking for Families by Ken Sande
This Momentary Marriage by John Piper
When Sinners Say I Do by Dave Harvey
The Excellent Wife by Martha Peace
The Exemplary Husband by Stuart Scott
Big Truths for Young Hearts by Bruce Ware
God, Marriage, and Family by Andreas Köstenberger
The Faithful Parent by Stuart Scott and Martha Peace
Shepherding a Child’s Heart by Ted Tripp
You Never Stop Being a Parent by Jim Newheiser and Elyse Fitzpatrick
Marry Wisely, Marry Well by Ernie Baker
The Biblical Counseling Guide for Women by John and Janie Street

I would like to discuss this list in depth but for today let us look at two authors

1. Elyse Fitzpatrick has no accredited degrees, including undergraduate, listed on her resume.

Elyse Fitzpatrick, who signs her name with an MA and is often cited by the BCM, Desiring God and The Gospel Coalition, does not have a degree in counseling from an accredited university. I do not see a valid undergraduate degree listed either. So, how does she have an MA?

Elyse holds a certificate in biblical counseling from CCEF (San Diego) and an M.A. in Biblical Counseling from Trinity Theological Seminary. She has authored 23 books on daily living and the Christian life.

CCEF (San Diego) (Christian Cousin and Educational Foundation

This is a non degree granting organization which grants *certifcates* of counseling. It is not a university or college. Here is what they have to say for themselves.

While CCEF is not an accredited institution, we do offer a robust certificate program. Certificates represent that a student has completed courses in our program. The School of Biblical Counseling awards three different certificates: Foundations of Biblical Counseling, Topics in Biblical Counseling, and Counseling Skills and Practice.

Students must complete all courses towards a particular certificate in a five-year period. All three certificates can be completed in one calendar year.

Even then the student is not *certified* as a biblical counselor.

If you wish to refer to yourself as a “certified counselor” or “certified biblical counselor,” you should pursue certification through an organization that provides this type of certification. Some organizations will accept CCEF courses as part of their training requirement.

Trinity Theological Seminary

Fitzpatrick apparently went on to earn an MA from this institution. This seminary should hang their head in shame. Read what they say about their accreditation. Be sure to read it all the way through. It’s pure baloney. This is an online, unaccredited college and it sounds suspiciously like a diploma mill which I am sure will be hotly debated. Let the swords be drawn.

Trinity College of the Bible and Trinity Theological Seminary is authorized and approved to grant degrees in the State of Indiana under Article I, Sections 2, 3, and 4, of the Indiana State Constitution and is recognized as a 501(c)(3) organization as stated in the Internal Revenue Service letter of determination dated February 24, 1970.

We are not affiliated (accredited) with any regional or national accrediting agency and have operated, successfully, as a school of ministry for over 45 years with students graduating and serving in a variety of areas including teaching, preaching, missions, and counseling. Trinity clearly understands the purpose of accreditation. However, as noted by the US Department of Education, and all US DOE recognized accreditors, accreditation is a voluntary process.

For Trinity, and many other good schools that seek to serve the adult learner population, the true measure of the quality of an education, and the institution itself, is the extensive experience and credentials of its faculty, the integrity of its courses and programs, and ultimately the ministry and professional achievements of its students and graduates. Trinity has provided access to Christian higher education for over 47 years, has approximately 1,2000 students currently enrolled in its distance learning programs, and has been blessed to have graduated over 6800 learners who serve to further the cause of Christ all over the world.

This school lists Elyse Fitzpatrick as one of their distinguished graduates.

  • Elyse Fitzpatrick, Biblical Counselor, Valley Center, CA

In her bio she says the following:

Please note that Elyse does not, under any circumstances, counsel over the internet.

For the life of me I cannot figure out why she doesn’t. That seems to be how she earned her *competent  to counsel* certificates….Frankly, this is gravely disappointing to me. I assumed she was an expert because she is oft quoted by the gospel™ crowd.

Update: Thanks to Jerome 12/16/17

It is rather odd that Fitzpatrick does not mention this on her bio on her own website which is where I usually go to get information directly from the source. Jerome found she may have an BA from Berean Bible College from Living Way Church’s tiny ‘Berean Bible College’ outfit in Poway, California. This does NOT add to her credentials and this may be why she didn’t add it.

“Berean Bible College is a Charismatic Christian bible college located within Living Way Church. The college claims educational accreditation through the Accrediting Commission International for Schools, Colleges and Theological Seminaries, an unrecognized accrediting organization based previously in Beebe, Arkansas now based in Sarasota, Florida.”

2. Ted Tripp and Shepherding a Child’s Heart by spanking babies.

I was quite surprised that this book is being recommended as a resource book for biblical counselors in training. Tripp is an advocate of spanking babies as young as 8 months old,

Children are old enough to be disciplined when they are old enough to show resistance, Tripp says in “Shepherding a Child’s Heart.”

“Rebellion can be something as simple as a small child struggling against a diaper change or stiffening his body when you want him to sit on your lap,” he writes, relaying an anecdote about how his 8-month-old son was old enough to be disciplined.

A particularly thoughtful critique of this book can be found at ONE MOM’S LOOK AT TEDD TRIPP’S BOOK: SHEPHERDING A CHILD’S HEART

For brevity, I focus here on my disagreements with Shepherding a Child’s Heart—its application of some Scriptures and its overall emphasis.
My main concerns are these:
1. The book’s focus on requiring obedience as the primary component of the parent/child relationship and emphasis on parental authority as the right to require obedience.
2. Tripp’s teaching that spanking is the means the parent must use in order to bring a child back into “the circle of blessing.”
3. Tripp’s interpretation that the “rod” in Proverbs equals spanking, that spanking is even for young children, that spanking is the God-ordained means of discipline (which parents must obey) and that use of the rod saves a child’s soul from death.
4. His portrayal of any other style or method of parenting in a derogatory manner and training parents’ consciences that failure to discipline as his book teaches is disobedience to God.

There are other authors who raise red flags for their lack of scholarship and one day I hope to do a thorough review of this list. Perhaps our readers will have something to add.

Phase Two: Exams and Applications

Whoa…I was going to gloss over this and finish up the post. However, a number of questions came to mind as I was reading this section. So, I guess this is it for this week.

Oh, and I wonder what sin my foster grandson committed that caused him to be admitted to the hospital to be cared for by highly trained and truly *competent to counsel* professionals?

Big question for ACBC

Does ACBC believe in counseling parents to spank 8 month old babies who squirm while having their diapers change? In fact, do they advocate spanking babies for any reason?

Comments

Biblical Counseling Training: Inadequate Education, Problematic Resources and Questionably Educated Leaders — 283 Comments

  1. Recently I read this book – “The boy who was raised as a dog”.
    https://www.amazon.com/Boy-Who-Raised-Psychiatrists-Notebook-What-ebook/dp/B01MSVMQR1/
    The book describes a child psychiatrist’s cases that taught him how trauma and stress experienced early in life can cause physical changes in how the brain operates (for ex., being in a constant fight-or-flight mode for self-protection). If one didn’t know the child’s background when they’re acting out or in trouble, the methods used to help them could be totally inadequate or off-target. (The problem could be resulting from sin, but it’s someone else’s, not necessarily the child’s.) I realized that this is an area of research that can have definite contributions, but you’re not going to find it in the Bible. The author has established a training academy for people working with troubled children. http://childtrauma.org/
    (In some ways the psychology vs. biblical counseling issue mirrors that of young-earth creationism vs. old earth – part of the issue is how much input is allowed from general revelation vs. how much from the Bible, and what priority to give each.)

  2. Since I am focusing specifically on the oft stated belief of the BCM that *anyone* can be a biblical counselor

    I wonder how far they are willing to take this. Does their same empowering principle extend into judgements of the church hierarchy?

    While I may offer friendly advice on occasion I would be loathe to hang out a shingle with such limited training and experience as described above. On the other hand I think that nearly every person should be encouraged to discern the character of their leaders. My guess is these folks likely have these two matters backwards, someone with little training can meddle in another persons difficulties while this same sensible someone is not equipped to judge their own situation in regard to their Christian leaders.

  3. Great insight. Thank you:

    Thersites wrote:

    My guess is these folks likely have these two matters backwards, someone with little training can meddle in another person’s difficulties while this same sensible someone is not equipped to judge their own situation in regard to their Christian leaders.

  4. I wonder how biblical counselors justify a “Jesus only” approach to mental health problems but not towards physical ones?

    It doesn’t seem consistent to have one standard for how to treat mental health problems but another for physical ailments.

    If biblical counselors get headaches, do they take aspirin, or go visit another counselor who tells them they have a headache because they sinned?

  5. Biblical counseling site quote:

    This skill can be learned, but until you’re really comfortable talking about faith and sin, especially pointing out someone else’s sin, your counseling may be awkward and, in the end, fairly ineffective.

    I can say that when you have depression or anxiety, that having someone attribute your depression and anxiety to your personal sin doesn’t help you a bit.

    You would still leave the “counseling” session with depression and anxiety intact. I can already tell from the outset that their type of counseling is ineffective.

    There are types of Christians who are already very, very comfortable (and who don’t feel the least awkward) about pointing out other people’s sins.

    In Jesus’ day, I think some of those types of believers were called Pharisees.

  6. This title was on their recommended reading list?-

    “When People are Big and God Is Small by Ed Welch”

    LOL! I read that book a couple of years ago. It was awful and didn’t help me with my anxiety at all.

    It’s a victim-blaming type book, and from what I remember of it, his basic advice on how to conquer your fear of people is to remember God is bigger or more powerful than people, so why are you so afraid of people?

    I had to toss that book aside and read a few by secular psychologists and psychiatrists, including the “Boundaries” book by Cloud and Townsend. All of those books were actually helpful to me. Not Welch’s book.

  7. My wife and I led divorce recovery groups in churches for nine years. Almost all that time we used a video curriculum called “DivorceCare”. I used it through three editions. In the third edition they started using “Biblical Counselors” as featured experts, as well as the usual very qualified licensed clinicians both male and female. I can only guess that the late inclusion of these well know “Biblical Counselors” is to make the program more acceptable in some conservative evangelical churches. We eventually dropped DivorceCare as we grew tired of trying to qualify their narrow practice and understanding of christianity to our participants.

  8. I’m so glad you are discussing this topic. You know I have big issues with it, too. I did a post a while back on this very issue and described how no Biblical counseling could fix my PTSD. Thankfully, I went to a psychologist who knew how to deal with me. I’ve had no flashbacks for over 20 years now – completely healed.

    I am sickened by the numbers of people who have been spiritually abused by this method. Yep, spiritually abused. They go in with one problem, and come out with another, spiritual abuse, because the counselor was ill-equipped to deal with their issues. Ugh. And that list of books/authors? Not good!

  9. I’ve been lurking here for a while, but I finally decided to comment. I discovered the site when I was researching Doug Wilson, for reasons related to biblical counseling.

    My family lives 15 minutes from Moscow, ID. When we moved here in 2015, we were dealing with grief from my Mom’s suicide and my daughter’s birth at 31 weeks. It was two years since she was born, and we were trying to figure out whether to have another kid in a very high risk pregnancy. We had just moved from Alabama for my work, and we didn’t know anyone, so we got free counseling from Mike Lawyer at the Center for Biblical Counseling connected to Christ Church, Doug Wilson’s Church. We were in a very bad way and he no where else to turn.

    I don’t mean to give a blow by blow, but I’ll just say the sin focus is brutal. In our first session, we talked about how God command to us is to be fruitful and multiply. My daughter (still our 1 and only) spent 47 days in the NICU dealing with heart, digestive, and breathing issues. She is fine now, but guilt about not having more kids was the last thing we needed. We endured 8 completely unhelpful sessions before deciding it was enough. Comments about church members with huge families blesses by God left be broken and wracked with guilt I am finally getting over.

    I could go on and on. I’ll just say that reducing every issue someone has to a sin they have committed leaves people self-conscious, paranoid, self-hating, and full of false guilt.

  10. Daisy wrote:

    including the “Boundaries” book by Cloud and Townsend

    -Who are Christian psychiatrists. Sorry, my post above made it sound like I was lumping them in with secular authors, which was not my intent.

    I am glancing over the rest of Dee’s post, and as to what else I’m seeing-

    “Marry Wisely, Marry Well by Ernie Baker” and

    III. Husband and Wife Relationships
    A. God’s Purpose for Marriage
    B. Roles of the Husband and Wife
    C. Communication
    D. Biblical Sexuality

    I can already predict what they teach under each point.

    It all comes down to the wife joyfully and graciously submitting to her husband and his Male Headship Servant Leadership, and give him all the sex he wants.

    If the husband commits adultery, yes, the biblical counselor would say, that is a sin, but the wife somehow drove him to it.

    And the counselor (who digs complementarianism and male headship) will get the wife to see this over the course of several counseling sessions, that she drove her husband to cheat by “letting herself go” –

    (because God wired all men to be visually oriented; therefore, women can never age, get grey hair, or wrinkles, and if they do, their husband will stray).

    Communication consists of the husband (because God invented him to be a manly macho man) to talk directly.

    While the wife has to only hint and be indirect about what she wants or thinks, but then, the husband will complain that his wife is “manipulating him” (the wife cannot win under this scenario no matter what).

    D. Biblical Sexuality –
    Complementarian biblical counselors only recognize that men want or like sex. The woman supposedly does not want it, so she has to be taught to always give in to her spouse.

    Her sexual preferences don’t matter, so the counselor will have her read books about what most guys prefer in the bedroom.

    (I could go on. I grew up with this stuff, I know it like the back of my hand.)

  11. So good to have a *reading* list of those to avoid.

    @ Daisy:
    We were thinking exactly the same thing as we read the article.

  12. Elyse Fitzpatrick’s ‘B.A.’?

    From Living Way Church’s tiny ‘Berean Bible College’ outfit in Poway, California!

    http://www.lwcpoway.com/berean-bible-college/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poway,_California#Berean_Bible_College

    “Berean Bible College is a Charismatic Christian bible college located within Living Way Church. The college claims educational accreditation through the Accrediting Commission International for Schools, Colleges and Theological Seminaries, an unrecognized accrediting organization based previously in Beebe, Arkansas now based in Sarasota, Florida.”

  13. https://www.biblicalcounselingcoalition.org/2011/06/01/give-them-grace-interview/

    FITZPATRICK: “I was saved right before my 21st birthday after living a pretty debauched lifestyle. I immediately enrolled in Bible College because that’s what I thought people did when they became Christians. It was there that I met my future husband Phil.”

    https://www.reviveourhearts.com/radio/revive-our-hearts/what-god-has-done-you/

    FITZPATRICK: “I didn’t get saved until right before my twenty-first birthday….Within a month or so I was in Bible College”

  14. I’m so sorry your foster grandson is having a hard time, Dee. I’m praying that the hospital stay is a big help to him and that God gives him and your daughter and son in law peace.

  15. Dee, I trust you and your family to rely on the wisdom, support, and strength of professional care-givers, friends, and God in this challenging time for your foster grandson.

    Forrest wrote:

    So good to have a *reading* list of those to avoid.

    Agree! And that’s just a partial list!

  16. Dee – I will pray for your foster grandson.

    America has become a hell of place for some children to live in. Glad to know that he is with folks who care for him … there are so many who don’t have the support they need.

  17. Moody Handbook of Theology by Paul Enns
    is an excellent book. Paul is a great guy. He was a member of my congregation and would fill the pulpit in my absence.

  18. Here’s a case study, inspired by Dr Throckmorton’s recent articles. When I was in 4th grade, I became so fearful of going to school that I feigned illness. How how might a biblical counselor have attempted to help me? Both serious and frivolous replies are welcomed. Tomorrow I’ll tell you what my Mom did.
    On a lighter note, I self-diagnose with CERN-O-Phobia. I used to think it was black-hole-O-phobia until I realized they were also creating antimatter. Planet earth as massive cue-ball or blown to smithereens…. Which? Biblical counseling welcomed. Here’s what I just read, ‘”All of our observations find a complete symmetry between matter and antimatter, which is why the universe should not actually exist,” says Christian Smorra, a physicist at CERN…’
    https://cosmosmagazine.com/physics/universe-shouldn-t-exist-cern-physicists-conclude

  19. @ Dave A A:
    Cern-O-Phobia? The universe should not exist? Maybe I need to be worried as well. I would love to hear what your mother did.

  20. Arlene wrote:

    In some ways the psychology vs. biblical counseling issue mirrors that of young-earth creationism vs. old earth – part of the issue is how much input is allowed from general revelation vs. how much from the Bible, and what priority to give each.)

    Great comment and interesting case as well.

  21. Thersites wrote:

    someone with little training can meddle in another persons difficulties while this same sensible someone is not equipped to judge their own situation in regard to their Christian leaders.

    Good point.

  22. Dave A A wrote:

    Planet earth as massive cue-ball

    I meant 8-ball, of course. Dagnabbit Autocorrect! Minus the 8, of course, which by my math equals 0, approximately, and for all practical purposes.

  23. @ Daisy:
    I plan to show a statement in which they claims that biblical training isatin to a cardiologist who gets training. After picking myself off the ground, laughing, I showed it to me husband. He asked me if that was a joke since he is a cardiologist. Poor guy-he could have skipped all those years of schooling and gone directly to biblical counseling to begin*curing* people of the sin that ails them after a few short hours of reading.

  24. dee wrote:

    I would love to hear what your mother did.

    Patience patience– must hear from biblical and unbiblical counsellors first.

  25. Loren Haas wrote:

    I used it through three editions. In the third edition they started using “Biblical Counselors” as featured experts, as well as the usual very qualified licensed clinicians both male and female. I can only guess that the late inclusion of these well know “Biblical Counselors” is to make the program more acceptable in some conservative evangelical churches.

    That is most interesting. There is one book my Martha Peace in the recommended training line up who appears to be weak on abuse. I need to do some more reading.Do you notice, in the training lineup, that there is NO discussion on abuse?

  26. Arlene wrote:

    (In some ways the psychology vs. biblical counseling issue mirrors that of young-earth creationism vs. old earth – part of the issue is how much input is allowed from general revelation vs. how much from the Bible, and what priority to give each.)

    In my initial reading of the post I too was struck by the parallels between YEC and “biblical” counseling. Then as I started into the comments I found I wasn’t the only one who saw this.

    I see one important difference between the two. Claims about the physical world, either by YEC or science, are accurately verifiable by observation and experiment. Science to my way of thinking is a careful and consistent observation and development of increasingly comprehensive theories to match these observations. Predictability by physical theories drives their development. One of the important side effects of this is the computer and communications technology that allows to have conversations like this between people scattered all over the world. The feedback of the results from the much more qualitative areas of counseling, psychology and psychiatry clearly leads to improvement of treatment but remains much less precise than science in the physical domain. However, the necessity for feedback to treatment resulting from counseling activities remains.

    The many TWW posts and comments in the area of counseling also calls into question the motivations of some individuals involved in these field but I’m not competent to go into this.

  27. @ Julie Anne:
    I got sick and tired of the stories I was reading about men like Heath Lambert going after qualified individuals in the counseling world. So, I decided I was going to look at exactly what is going on in this movement. JA, everything I read gets me more concerned.That is why I plan to do this once a week until the subject I exhausted. This could take awhile.

    I had one person tell me I didn’t have all the facts. I swear this is a new mantra in the Christian world when we uncover anything uncomfortable. Matt Chandler said that to me about the Karen Hinkley situation. I retorted “We have the emails and texts or didn’t the tell you.” We know how that ended with his tai between his legs.

    I do have the *facts* in this situation. That is why I am going through all of their material and I cut and paste the quotes, etc.

    Take a look in the post. Do you see any lectures about abuse? My guess is that significant percentage of those seeking counseling have experienced abuse. Instead, they are given material to read which tell a woman to submit to husband. This is crazy stuff.

  28. DivorceCare was useful for me. However, I had some very good local leaders, and that makes a very BIG difference! One of the many issues I have/had with DivorceCare was a strong bias to push against the divorce. It struck too close to what I call is “The Shared Responsibility Lie” (http://www.divorceminister.com/shared-responsibility-lie/) where they encouraged even victims of abuse and abandonment to “own their part.”

    Sometimes of the bad options–stay in an abusive marriage or divorce–divorce is the better and I dare say even more godly option, IMO.

  29. Ricco wrote:

    I don’t mean to give a blow by blow, but I’ll just say the sin focus is brutal. In our first session, we talked about how God command to us is to be fruitful and multiply. My daughter (still our 1 and only) spent 47 days in the NICU dealing with heart, digestive, and breathing issues.

    I am so sorry. I could have predicted that one given you were going to. Doug Wilson counseling center. I would love to use you comment in a post in which I am looking at the abuse of biblical counseling. Is that OK?

    You should have hesitated about having another child. have some friends who went through the exact same thing as you did. They decided not to have further biological children and I believe they may have ended up adopting another child.

  30. @ Ricco:
    Did they have a fee for that counseling? Did you attend Wilson’s *kirk?*

    I am so glad you child is doing well. Nothing is worse than seeing your kid go through suffering and not be able to do anything about it. I get it. Thank you for sharing.

  31. Jerome wrote:

    Elyse Fitzpatrick’s ‘B.A.’?
    From Living Way Church’s tiny ‘Berean Bible College’ outfit in Poway, California!
    http://www.lwcpoway.com/berean-bible-college/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poway,_California#Berean_Bible_College
    “Berean Bible College is a Charismatic Christian bible college located within Living Way Church. The college claims educational accreditation through the Accrediting Commission International for Schools, Colleges and Theological Seminaries, an unrecognized accrediting organization based previously in Beebe, Arkansas now based in Sarasota, Florida.”

    How interesting. She does not list this as her educational background on her website. I wonder why. I think I will add your findings to the post immediately.

  32. I wonder what they consider a ” sexual sin?” Enjoying it? Or worse she enjoys it…..(I may get banned, sorry if I’ve offended)

  33. Jerome wrote:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=DulZBwAAQBAJ&pg=PT15
    FITZPATRICK: “I had already been married and divorced and had a baby….I got on my knees before God….Within three months I was starting classes at Berean Bible College.”
    http://myfaithradio.com/authors/elyse-fitzpatrick/
    “re-born by God’s grace in 1971. She married Phillip Fitzpatrick and set about raising their children while completing her BA in Theology.”

    I have updated this info in the post, citing you an the info you found. Now I have a question. Why in the world didn’t she add this to her official bio on her official website? https://www.elysefitzpatrick.com? Soliciting opinions. I think it is because it does NOTHING for her bio.

  34. I noticed a title or two used by the now defunct Mars Hill Church. That does not bode well–in my book–for these materials guarding against spiritual abusive practice.

  35. @ Marie:
    Thank you. He is opening up more and more and that pain needs to come out and when it comes out it so hard that it is difficult for him to cope with the reality of what happened.

  36. @ OldJohnJ:
    I am praying for you this Christmas. It must be a hard time for you. Thank you for taking the time to come over here and add such a thoughtful comment.

  37. @ dee:
    Thanks Dee

    I am happy for you to use my post, and I’d be happy to share more with you over email. I may still have their intake survey or whatever they call it.

    Thanks so much for your kindness and understanding. When I started researching some of these things, I got very depressed. The commenters on this blog lifted my spirits. Thank you all! This is a corner of the internet where kindness and understanding still exist.

    We were actually foster parents to one child. We will probably do it again, but we felt our daughter was too young and my job is too tenuous. My wife had some mental health issues related to that, and she found help from a real counselor and a short term use of medication.

  38. @ dee:
    We were not charged by the “kirk.” That’s a big reason we went. I feel really bad for going. We have never attended there, and never will. I have read too many stories about how their counseling is in no way confidential. In one, a husband secretly recorded his wife on the phone and that was then used against her in counseling.

    Thanks for your kind words, Dee. That understanding is so helpful, especially from someone with your life experience. Prayers for you, your daughter’s family, and their precious foster son.

  39. Thersites wrote:

    I wonder how far they are willing to take this. Does their same empowering principle extend into judgements of the church hierarchy?

    Of Course Not — RANK HATH ITS PRIVILEGES!

    And Rank bestowed by Divine Right (“Touch Not Mine Anointed!”) Hath the Most Privileges of All.

  40. Daisy wrote:

    If biblical counselors get headaches, do they take aspirin, or go visit another counselor who tells them they have a headache because they sinned?

    DON’T GIVE THEM IDEAS!

  41. Daisy wrote:

    It all comes down to the wife joyfully and graciously submitting to her husband and his Male Headship Servant Leadership, and give him all the sex he wants.

    Just like “Slave Girls of Gor”!
    ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorean_subculture – Warning! Bare Boobies in pic!)

    Or just like in PORNOGRAPHY.

    “Close as makes no difference.”

    If the husband commits adultery, yes, the biblical counselor would say, that is a sin, but the wife somehow drove him to it.

    “SEE WHAT THE WOMAN YOU GAVE ME MADE ME DO?” — Adam

  42. K.D. wrote:

    I wonder what they consider a ” sexual sin?”

    Anything YOU do sexually that I DON’T, of course.

  43. dee wrote:

    Thank you. He is opening up more and more and that pain needs to come out and when it comes out it so hard that it is difficult for him to cope with the reality of what happened.

    At least he is with a loving family now. He has a chance, possibilities that he never would have had in his previous life. I know your daughter (pshaw …… your entire family) will do everything you can to help him. My hope and prayer is that several years down the road, this boy will celebrate Thanksgiving and Christmas with your family and you will share good memories.

  44. K.D. wrote:

    I wonder what they consider a ” sexual sin?” Enjoying it? Or worse she enjoys it…..(I may get banned, sorry if I’ve offended)

    How about, “Not tonight, dear. I have a headache.”

  45. Daisy wrote:

    If biblical counselors get headaches, do they take aspirin, or go visit another counselor who tells them they have a headache because they sinned?

    The other counselor probably says, “Read two Bible verses and call me in the morning.”

  46. Dee – I commend your family for getting your “grandson” the help he needs. Not every one will do this. After all, according to biblical counseling, it’s all a sin, isn’t it. WRONG. I am so tired of being told everything we do is a sin and that sin caused our sickness, etc. It didn’t. Our bodies wear out in time, things happen to do them. I re-injured my shoulder in August after having surgery on it in March of this year. It’s pretty painful. I sure didn’t sin. My body caused it. I had a 95% chance of getting a frozen shoulder after having my surgery. I didn’t beat the odds. But I’m sure if I went to biblical counseling they would tell me I sinned. This reminds me of growing up in the 60’s and 70’s. We had so many rules and regulations that we had to follow as Christians that I thought were stupid. We as children couldn’t wear shorts out in public. We couldn’t mix bathe (swim) together. Even though the pastor had a pool at his house and all the deacons got together and had swim parties. We couldn’t go to movies. The list was endless. Thankfully my parents didn’t think that way. Christ gives us freedom in him, not more rules to follow. It seems that these “Biblical Counselors” are “sin sniffing”. Aren’t we supposed to get the log out of our own eye before getting the mote out of someone else’s. He who has no sin, cast the first stone. It’s all do as I say do and not as I do. It’s all so totally wrong. Your grandson is an innocent victim in what he went thru. He’s a child. It wasn’t his fault. But yet, the mind that God so wonderfully created in him is naturally having trouble dealing with it. Who wouldn’t. Thank God that modern medical science can help him. Because the biblical counselors surely aren’t.

  47. Biblical Counselling to me is basically mandating jobs friends to meddle in your life – and we all know how that went

  48. Dee, praying for your grandson. After going through so much like that with our son, I know it is truly heartrending.

    I’m hopeful he gets really good psychiatric, even neuropsychiatric, care. Psychology or talk therapy can help but not if there are underlying biological issues, whether hereditary or changes brought by trauma or pathways forged in survival mode. When those are addressed, then talk helped.

    I would however recommend a good Christian counsellor–no, not one of these the post is about but a recognized properly trained person who is also a believer.

    Both my son and my cousin benefitted greatly by that. There finally came a time with both when (I’ll make up a scenario to protect their privacy) when the docs had to say “You know, we are able to help with the anxiety caused by the abuse you suffered and by your bi polar disorder and by the habits you formed to survive. But by golly, we cannot help you with the anxiety you feel every time you see a cop until you stop stealing.”

    By that I mean there is such a thing as sin complicating things even for the mentally ill and sufferers of abuse. And sin (theirs) layers in consequences on top of the consequences of the sins done to them and on top of biology. It is a little like working snarls out of fine hair. You work on this strand, then that, then back, etc.

    One of the best docs we saw put it this way to our then 14 year old embarking on a criminal career: “Yes, you have brain structure changes causing impulsivity. Your are constantly in fight or flight due to ptsd and it feels right to prep for the future by stealing and hiding money. But it is still wrong and you still need to pay it back and apologize to Grandma.”

    Praying for him!

  49. This is a significant issue to be dealt with. A few days ago I went ballistic on TWW and could not say enough bad against biblical counseling. In my mind at the time, and within the context of dealing with actual mental illness, I had a fit against it. I still think that if they venture into the areas of actual illness they must be opposed.

    However, because this topic is being addressed here I have made some inquiries and I have modified my thinking somewhat. For one example, I uncovered a case in which this sort of counseling was extremely helpful to one person dealing with life issues, one of the faculty at CertainSchool who has been very vocal about it.

    What I am thinking at this point is that mid-level practitioners in the art of pastoral counseling may be very needed in today’s church. What?? Well, it turns out that in my denom the office of permanent deacon often turns out to be something on the level of social work and fills a needed gap in church functioning in some circumstances. In the case at CertainSchool the person had developed anxiety about a certain issue which was partly religious in content and actually underwent three sessions from a counselor at her church which apparently and for all appearances turned her situation around for the better with sustained emotional balance for some three years now.

    I am also thinking that DivorceCare which has been mentioned here is, in fact, a mid-level approach to life circumstance, as are the groups at SBC mega dealing with relatives who are addicts, AA and related groups for people dealing with alcoholics. a group aimed at helping the parents of kids who are in trouble including trouble with the law, and for that matter a group for parents of internationally adopted kids which has served well for RE and others. I have not been able to find any information about anger management sessions, so I have no opinion on that.

    In addition, the scriptural admonition for the older women to teach the younger women how to deal with related family issues is a directive for a certain type of mid-level counseling of a sort.

    So, I apologize for the prior rant. I took it too far. I still think that for a counselor or facilitator in any situation to go beyond something they are capable to deal with is asking for trouble, I do not think that mid-level lay (non-professional) assistance in some areas is necessarily a bad idea and in some circumstances can be beneficial if used properly.

  50. @ Arlene:
    Arlene,
    I compleltely agree with you with respect to the Young Earth /old earth conflict. Because, the young earth/old earth conflict is really a conflict between not just special vs generall revolution, but the arogance of a mind set that “my reading” of scripture is always the absolute correct one. I have had far to many arguments with “young earthers” that are not really consistent with their way of reading the scriptures…. for example, while they claim they “read the scriptures” “literally”, when I would read them other passages in the Old Testiment that do not make sence literally, they typicall agree and say, “well that passage is obviously not meant to be literal”…. so, they really are not honest…

    I do give Ken Ham credit, he says that you must read/interpret science through his view of the scriptures. While I fundamentally disagree with Ken Ham, at least he is up front about how he views “science”..

  51. So, where is bipolar disorder given in scripture? Given that there are drugs that can level out the ups and downs of a bolar person, that means that extensive clincial trails of drugs have been conducted with quantifiable indactors that the chemical(s) is/are effective. Serious bipolar disorder can drive people to behaviors that would definitely be classified as “sin” by most people, not just fundies…. In my opinion, this is a hugh question….. where does personal responsibiliy end, and metal illness begin??
    But of course, these on-line degrees can make you an expert on this……

  52. This is so wrong on so many levels.

    I went to a licensed Christian therapist (who had genuine, secular training) when I thought I was going crazy because of my OCD. He helped me work through some issues and relieved some of my fears. (Not once did he sin-sniff…quite the contrary. He constantly reassured me that unwanted, obtrusive, terrifying obsessive thoughts are just that — unwanted. “Classic neurosis,” as he put it once, NOT sin.)

    But I didn’t get real, life-changing relief until I started taking SSRIs — first Anafranil, then Luvox. For me, Luvox has been a life-saver. I am still on a maintenance dose (100mg daily).

    “Biblical counseling” would have sent me straight over the edge.

  53. Despite my bad experience, I think there can be a role for pastoral counseling. That’s all “biblical counseling” is. I have had some very helpful “counseling” with my pastor. We go to a church tut is a combination of Calvinist and Vinyard. I disagree with a ton of things my church says now that I am no longer a Calvinist and have really gone on a faith journey, but my pastor is an exceptional person and definitely not a walking podcast.

    What pastors and “biblical counselors” need to understand is many problems are beyond their expertise. Also, whenever “spiritual authority” is brought into counseling, it becomes abusive. Our church always tells stories of how you should ask your “leader” if you should date a certain girl. In my opinion, if this is just advice, it’s not abusive. If it is done under the heading of “spiritual authority,” it is very abusive. To say nothing of the fact that the leaders can easily blackball a woman that they don’t like. @ okrapod:

  54. okrapod wrote:

    So, I apologize for the prior rant. I took it too far. I still think that for a counselor or facilitator in any situation to go beyond something they are capable to deal with is asking for trouble, I do not think that mid-level lay (non-professional) assistance in some areas is necessarily a bad idea and in some circumstances can be beneficial if used properly.

    I’ve been thinking about this as well. I think we need to take into account the holistic nature of humans as body-soul-spirit. It seems reasonable that our mental/emotional response to life circumstances can be helped by a combination of medical help, professional counseling (the real kind), and spiritual support from people of faith. One of the many things wrong with “Biblical Counseling” as defined here is how it denies the benefits of medical help and professional counseling, and instead tries to pigeon-hole all mental/emotional problems as purely “spiritual.” It would be equally bad if a doctor approached every human problem as purely medical – but I don’t know of doctors who do that. “When all you have is a hammer, everything tends to look like a nail.”

  55. What has changed my outlook is understanding the finished work of Jesus and that my true self is in Him. Sin is not the definition of who I am; it is a manifestation of my false self. When I live into who I really am, the guilt and condemnation begins to recede a bit.

    It is a tragedy that a real disorder would be treated as “unrepented sin.” The level of sin consciousness that this creates is insane. For a person with OCD, this would lead to a horrible place. Our humanity is not inherently evil. Our humanity has died and been raised with Christ. Any way that science has discovered to make us well is part of our union with Christ and is for our GOOD.

    Anyway, that’s just how I see it. When we struggle because of what has been done to us, a “sinful” response doesn’t make us culpable in our pain. Of course we don’t respond perfectly. Our less that perfect response is not what is keeping us from healing. That is not the easy yoke and light burden Jesus promised. @ Catholic Gate-Crasher:

  56. “Anyone can be a biblical counselor.” Just like anyone can treat a scratched finger. Neosporin, band-aid, done.

    “Biblical counseling” might work, if you have the emotional equivalent of a paper-cut, and just need a listening ear. Like my friend, whose counseling ability is limited to the phrase, “Get over it!”

    Which doesn’t work at all if you have the emotional equivalent of a broken bone, or cancer. Of if your problem really is physical, involving all of those wacky hormones and brain chemicals. “Biblical counseling” pretends that those don’t exist. It’s just sin.

    In some cases, “biblical counseling” may be less like a band-aid, and more like using leeches and hot irons to cure a paper cut, a boneheaded “cure” that does more damage than the original injury.

    Thanks for covering this topic.

  57. Ricco wrote:

    For a person with OCD, this would lead to a horrible place.

    Amen! There is even a religious term for this: scruplulosity. It can drive pious people insane, quite literally. (NB: Not the same thing as the normal moral scruples we all should have; rather, it’s scruples in mega-hyper-overdrive.)

  58. “Basic Training only takes 30 hours”

    Wow…30 hours plus some reading from books that offer no diversity in thought plus observing for 10 hours (not even in person!) and BAM! you’re a counselor. I know I’ve said this before, but this is pathetic.

    I recently completed a Spanish 1 class. I spent 25 hours in class plus countless hours working through a textbook and keeping up on Duolingo, so I should be fluent in Spanish….right?! No, yo no hablo espanol.

    The lack of training in the areas of abuse and trauma are disheartening, especially since many people seek counseling for these issues. The term “basic” describes these counselors perfectly.

  59. @ Kathi:
    Politicans in my state were trying to force my University to take transfer students that took on-line, general chemistry, “lab courses”! Wow, you can learn how to work in lab just by watching videos from the comfort of your bedroom….. of course, these politicans are being “lobbied” by the on-line industry…

    The level of “dumding” down our society that is occuring is just breathtaking..

  60. @ Jeffrey J Chalmers:
    I work in higher ed teaching music and music education , and my state is trying to slow people to be certified in music education just by passing a test without any formal musical training.

    I’m a small government guy, but I hate the populist anti-intellectualism that leads to people hating education and discounting what science can tell us about things like mental illness.

  61. dee wrote:

    Why in the world didn’t she add this to her official bio on her official website?Soliciting opinions. I think it is because it does NOTHING for her bio.

    Perhaps an additional factor is the school being Charismatic (founder was associated with the Latter Rain movement) – a red flag in the Reformed circles Fitzpatrick moves in now.

  62. I will take regular counseling over “biblical counseling ” any day of the week and every Sunday! Biblical counseling is what I perceive as controlling counseling it may help to an extent however most of these wing nuts can’t control their need to use scripture to sin check you. At least in regular counseling those who have a good grasp on scripture and reality can navigate them much better. It’s always better when there’s no agenda attached. Just my opinion

  63. Ricco wrote:

    Comments about church members with huge families blesses by God left be broken and wracked with guilt I am finally getting over.

    So much for freedom in Christ

  64. @ Thersites:
    Doug Wilson is a big fan of Rushdoony and Christian Reconstructionism, so they are Quiverfull extremists. I realize now how nasty that ideology is, and that is why it was a big mistake to get counseling there, especially in our situation.

    You are 100% right: that is works salvation, not freedom

  65. linda wrote:

    By that I mean there is such a thing as sin complicating things even for the mentally ill and sufferers of abuse. And sin (theirs) layers in consequences on top of the consequences of the sins done to them and on top of biology. It is a little like working snarls out of fine hair. You work on this strand, then that, then back, etc.

    So a child who was severely abused in every imaginable needs to have his sin pointed out to him? For example, do not throw things around the room because that is sinful. It doesn’t matter that you remembered that awful night that you have never told about before and you do not know how to talk about it. Behave.

    In other words, when does the sin thing enter in for a child who was seriously abused?

  66. Kathi wrote:

    Wow…30 hours plus some reading from books that offer no diversity in thought plus observing for 10 hours (not even in person!) and BAM! you’re a counselor. I know I’ve said this before, but this is pathetic.

    My thoughts exactly.

  67. @ dee:
    It seems to me leaving the sin word aside and talking about actions and consequences would be more productive than pointing out sin. “Sin” is often it’s own punishment. I’m no expert, but I would think therapy should help people find more positive ways to relate to the world around them. That would probably involve less “sin,” but making sin the focus seems like a bad plan. It has been negative for me in my experience.

  68. @Jeffrey J Chalmers: When my son was in 7th grade we tried online public school. One area that I was not happy with was that all of the science was purely online study. Nothing hands-on to actually experience science.

    Online training has some benefit, especially for people who are needing to do post-graduate continuing education credits to maintain licensing or maintaining professional requirements. However, when someone is learning the basics, processes, and techniques for counseling, it is better to have face-to-face time with instructors and other professionals to bounce off ideas. I’m still disconcerted about how little time these people actually spend in learning and are considered capable of counseling merely because they know their Bible.

    My concern remains for those who seek counseling through Biblical counseling for abuse or trauma. Trauma is extremely complex and while faith may play an important role in a person’s healing, the Bible does not address all of the complexities behind how a person may react to trauma.

  69. Ricco wrote:

    I realize now how nasty that ideology is, and that is why it was a big mistake to get counseling there, especially in our situation.

    I guess you get what you pay for. Glad you’re in a better church.

  70. Kathi wrote:

    One area that I was not happy with was that all of the science was purely online study. Nothing hands-on to actually experience science.

    I’m guessing that the Math curriculum was abysmal too.

  71. drstevej wrote:

    How is discipleship distinguished from counseling?

    Now that is one great question!!! What are your thoughts on the matter?

  72. @Muff Potter – Honestly, I don’t remember the math curriculum. It was a standard 7th grade textbook. I thought all of the textbooks that he had were good. But, for a kid who could spend hours on the computer playing video games, he had a difficult time tracking reading and assignments online. He went to public school after 6 weeks of giving online school a try.

  73. I see discipleship and counseling as to circles which overlap each other (i.e. there are some areas they have in common.

    I think this article does a good job of summarizing the function and objectives of discipleship: https://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-discipleship.html

    Here is a decent definition of counseling: the provision of assistance and guidance in resolving personal, social, or psychological problems and difficulties, especially by a professional.

    +++

    I’ll begin there to get thoughts thus far.

  74. At a former church, I was approached by the pastor to possibly start a recovery ministry. As a part of it, the pastor’s father-in-law would be doing the counseling and I would be doing pastoral duties, whatever those would be. Of course, the father-in-law (whom I’ll call ‘George’)was insistent that we would use nouthetic counseling and nothing else. George was a Jay Adams devotee. After investigating, including talking with two licensed Christian counselors (who were okay with some nouthetic, but not primary or exclusive) and the head of Psychiatry at our local denominational university, i told George and our pastor that it would not work, that I wouldn’t work with George because of his narrow-minded adherence to nouthetic counseling. I was made to feel like I was the bad guy, but I was not going to subject people to this counseling and our church to the possible legal ramifications if we got sued. If n individual or church offers this kind of counseling, RUN!

  75. @ Ricco:
    About black-balling a girl they don’t like…

    I know a woman who found herself sort of dating a well respected guy from church. She really liked him. This guy started pressuring her for sex and later “broke up” with her because she refused because she believed (just like he openly claimed to believe) that sex outside of marriage is wrong. She later discovered that he had not actually ever broken up with his previous girlfriend and she had been the “other woman.” That actually explained several of his behaviors to me.

    Anyways, said woman is noticed by another guy at the same church and they start to date. Their sunday school teachers (who were close friends to the woman) pulled guy 2 aside and warned him that the woman was a “man eater.” Guy 2 asked for some evidence. Sunday School teachers did not have any. So Guy 2 continues to date the woman and later marries her.

    It turns out, Guy 1 had started spreading rumors about the woman and because he was a long time member and son of a deacon everyone believed him. It appears that he was spreading those rumors to discredit her if she came forward about the sexual pressure.

  76. GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

    “Biblical counseling” might work, if you have the emotional equivalent of a paper-cut, and just need a listening ear. Like my friend, whose counseling ability is limited to the phrase, “Get over it!”

    When I found out in my early 30s that the treatment for my childhood cancer left me unable to have children, I was really struggling, but I wasn’t really unable to cope. My former (SBC) church partnered me with a wonderful woman from the Stephen Ministry. She met with me once a week for a few months, then once a month. She was nothing but encouraging, and there was no sin-sniffing or anything that sounds remotely like what biblical counseling promotes. She let me talk, prayed with me, and let me call her if I was having a rough day. She also asked me several times if I was getting the proper medical care and said that if it became too difficult, she would help me find a registered psychologist. It was what biblical counseling should be, if done by lay people.

    From their website at https://www.stephenministries.org/stephenministry/default.cfm/917?hpf=1

    Congregations receive a practical and powerful way to respond to Christ’s commandment: “Love one another as I have loved you” (John 15:12 RSV).

    Pastors have a team of gifted, trained, and committed lay caregivers ready to minister to hurting people (information for pastors).

    Laypeople nurture and use their gifts in meaningful ministry, growing spiritually as they serve others.

    People who are hurting have a compassionate companion—a caring Christian friend who provides emotional and spiritual support.

  77. drstevej wrote:

    How is discipleship distinguished from counseling?

    In New Calvinist ranks, discipleship and Biblical counseling = indoctrination in reformed theology.

  78. Max wrote:

    … discipleship … indoctrination … theology …

    This is an interesting observation. IMHO, discipleship is not indoctrination, as Jesus taught and modeled discipleship. Love and relationship (love God, love others as yourself) seems more on point. You’ve mentioned before, Max, where is the love among some of these groups?

    Discipleship requires discipline but it is based on a discipline of love in practice, loyalty, personal commitment to a person and giving, as anyone in a long-term faithful relationship recognizes.

    Evangelism seems to work with scale (in stadiums and arenas). However, does discipleship and the teamwork of fellowship work that way? Does the mega model actually work for discipleship? Thoughts.

    Back to counseling: “Counseling psychology is a psychological specialty that encompasses research and applied work…” – wikipedia – Furthermore, research requires professional protocol in a field of trained experts, professional peers.

    As already mentioned in this series, would someone have a “Christian leader” do their brain surgery? try their case in a court of law? design or construct their building? pilot their flight?

    Overreach.

  79. JYJames wrote:

    Evangelism seems to work with scale (in stadiums and arenas). However, does discipleship and the teamwork of fellowship work that way? Does the mega model actually work for discipleship? Thoughts.

    Spent a lot of time in megachurches and I didn’t see much discipleship. There were some small groups that seemed more effective but they usually isolated themselves from the rest of the church. And often they were quite cliquish once they got going.

    Most of the groups started and dropped with regularity, including most of the ones I participated in. I will concede that, being a single person, most of those megas had no interest in singles and didn’t work very hard to retain them. There was also a lot of pressure on singles just to do work for the church but those churches didn’t really provide singles with a lot of fellowship.

    The last mega I was a part of became very focused on attracting families with children and many of the sermons were about that and how everyone else was supposed to devote all their time and give special offerings to children’s ministry. They were very poor about keeping up with groups for adults. The argument was that adults were less likely to “get saved”. I suspect that, while they wouldn’t admit it, they had supporters from the tv ministry who wanted lots of salvation numbers.

    I’ve heard the argument at one of those churches that it attracted more non-Christians than other churches because of all the activities and the “light” entertaining sermons but was meant for people to move on. Except, as far as I could tell, people went there for years and never seemed to grow very much. And a lot of people I knew from those churches were very celebrity-Christian focused, no matter if it was Baptist or not.

  80. JYJames wrote:

    IMHO, discipleship is not indoctrination

    No, it’s not!! In New Calvinist churches, “discipleship” takes place in small group meetings through the week. Leaders of those are hand-picked by the elders and trained to indoctrinate church members in reformed theology. Genuine discipleship which leads believers to a closer walk with Christ is a critical missing piece in the American church at large … religion without relationship does not create disciples.

  81. Max wrote:

    In New Calvinist churches, “discipleship” takes place in small group meetings through the week. Leaders of those are hand-picked by the elders and trained to indoctrinate church members in reformed theology.

    Don’t forget the part about where if you confess any sins or struggles to the group, you could wind up before the church for church discipline because the leader shares everything with the pastors. I remember a lot of the Mars Hill survivors talked about that.

    It’s the same strategy the shepherding movement used, as well as many cults.

  82. JeffT wrote:

    “Quack, quack, quack…..” says the ‘biblical’ counselor

    Most quackery I’ve run across (from old Prevention magazines to Dianetics) includes a Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory about the mainstream medical/psych establishment to make sure the “patients” cannot trust anything or anyone other than the Quack.

  83. Ricco wrote:

    @ Thersites:
    Doug Wilson is a big fan of Rushdoony and Christian Reconstructionism…

    i.e. “Handmaid’s Tale as How-to Manual for the Perfect Godly America.”

    Take Power By Any Means Necessary and Purge and Cleanse By Any Means Whatsoever.
    Just like the Khmer Rouge, Ayatollahs, and Talibani.

  84. Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    Ricco wrote:

    For a person with OCD, this would lead to a horrible place.

    Amen! There is even a religious term for this: scruplulosity.

    “Excessive Scrupulosity”, a form of OCD expressed in self-sin-sniffing and fanatical devotions.

  85. JYJames wrote:

    Does the mega model actually work for discipleship?

    Some of the most immature Christians I know attend mega churches. You become mega by attracting lots of folks, but growing those folks through effective discipleship is another matter. In the 21st century church, we under-emphasize discipleship. It’s easier to get them in the door through charisma or entertainment, than getting them to become committed disciples of Christ. Having children isn’t all that difficult; getting them raised is! I asked my dad once what the toughest years of child-rearing were – he replied “The first 55” (the age of his oldest child at the time).

  86. ishy wrote:

    if you confess any sins or struggles to the group, you could wind up before the church for church discipline because the leader shares everything with the pastors

    Certainly! Small groups in churches with authoritarian leaders are a mechanism to keep a close eye on the members. The New Calvinists in my area call them “LifeGroups” … but you better not experience any life in them!

  87. From Point 4
    “You need to be a good conversationalist because that is what most of biblical counseling involves.The counselor would be especially proficient in discussing sin.
    You need to be a good conversationalist—much of Biblical counseling is simply talking. This skill can be learned, but until you’re really comfortable talking about faith and sin, especially pointing out someone else’s sin, your counseling may be awkward and, in the end, fairly ineffective.”

    I find this really troubling that the focus is on talking at the counsellee. In all other doctor/patient or therapist/client situations, the key focus of the professional should be to listen to the person who has come for help, to really hear what they are saying. A huge part of the healing process is to know you have been heard.

    Yes, the counsellor should be able to communicate well but the focus is on listening to the client, not pushing one’s own agenda.

  88. Not sure if this has been evaluated on this blog but a book series used and taught by this type of training is the Babywise series by the Ezzos. Babies are supposed to be nursed on a schedule and some have failed to thrive this way. Book debunked by pediatric docs. Supposed to start parental control as soon as that little sinner crawls out of the womb.

  89. ishy wrote:

    Spent a lot of time in megachurches and I didn’t see much discipleship. There were some small groups that seemed more effective but they usually isolated themselves from the rest of the church. And often they were quite cliquish once they got going.

    One of Mrs. Muff’s friends tried out the single’s groups at 2 of the mega-biggies in our area.
    She said she’d feel safer in a piranha tank.

  90. ER wrote:

    About black-balling a girl they don’t like…

    As you’ve probably gathered, they don’t like women who stand on their own two feet and who refuse to play the damsel in distress.

  91. We often hear from sermons about the sin of gossiping. I was told one time that I was gossiping because I told someone, “yeah, I saw so-and-so at the grocery store last night” because apparently I was gossiping about so-and-so’s whereabouts, I just laughed at them and said “Well, I didn’t know they were in the witness protection program.” However,I believe some of these “Christian leaders” really want to gossip, so they gussy it up as being about sin accountability and biblical counseling when really they just want all the salacious details, but they are able to say it’s not GOSSIP. And with biblical counseling being open to all, then everyone can know everything about each other and discuss it with one another, but it isn’t gossiping.

    We as a society have accepted that physical disease is not caused by sin nor demons, so why can’t these people accept that neither are psychological issues. The wages of sin IS death, as in when we die we are separated from God and the saints because of our sin, without the blood of Jesus, we do not pay for our sins on earth, but in the afterlife. Therefore, any psychological problem or trauma we face now cannot be the wages of sin.

  92. Ricco wrote:

    Our church always tells stories of how you should ask your “leader” if you should date a certain girl. In my opinion, if this is just advice, it’s not abusive. If it is done under the heading of “spiritual authority,” it is very abusive.

    If your church is using the word ‘should’ then it has already taken a position being in authority over you in this matter. It is interfering and more likely than not abusive. The more so because they are prepared to come out and take this position.

  93. Estelle wrote:

    Yes, the counsellor should be able to communicate well but the focus is on listening to the client, not pushing one’s own agenda.

    Agreed. Providing a person with a safe place where they have the opportunity to verbalise the things that are causing them a problem can help them understand the problem better and help them make appropriate decisions concerning that problem. Often, all that is necessary to help them get through that day is someone who listens without judging.

  94. A Christmas tangent

    Having just acquired a new loudspeaker, Lesley was testing it with “Carols from Kings” on youtube this morning. That is, the Festival of Nine Lessons and Carols, sung at King’s College, Cambridge, and televised live every year by the BBC.

    The music varies from year to year, but the service always begins with Once in Royal David’s City. I used to sing this a lot when I was wee – in fact, I even sang the solo first verse on occasion – but sometimes, when you come back to something you knew when you were small, you see a lot more in it than you used to.

    He came down to earth from heaven, Who is God and Lord of all;
    And his shelter was a stable, and his cradle was a stall.
    With the poor, and mean, and lowly, lived on earth our Saviour holy.

    In a culture where celebrity pastors have a green room and a stage, and can’t worship a guy they fondly imagine they can “beat up”… well, it’s true that lies are damaging and need refuting. But it may do us no harm to leave them to their fancies for a moment and consider the above poem, sourced (as it is) in scripture, and what it tells us about Who the real King is.

  95. Ricco wrote:

    Doug Wilson is a big fan of Rushdoony and Christian Reconstructionism, so they are Quiverfull extremists.

    Until very recently Doug Wilson was the “Presiding Minister” for the Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches (I believe it is a rotating assignment). See https://crechurches.org/. Doug Wilson’s name is still on their 2014 27-page constitution. Fortunately, they make it easy to search for CREC churches. They also extensively document their meetings on their website, which means one can get a feel for the spirit of their fellowship by reading those documents. CREC makes New-Calvinism appear tame by comparison.

  96. Dave A A wrote:

    Here’s what I just read, ‘”All of our observations find a complete symmetry between matter and antimatter, which is why the universe should not actually exist,” says Christian Smorra, a physicist at CERN…’

    As I’m sure you don’t need me to tell you, the statement “the universe should not actually exist” is somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Obviously the universe does exist *, and therefore it should. The thing is that, to a physicist, the fact that there are significant experimental holes in a theory is cause for excitement – it means there’s more to discover.

    * I say it’s obvious, but the logical next step for the flat-earthists is for a breakaway faction to form within them that denies the existence of the universe, the earth, everybody else, and eventually, themselves.

  97. @ Ken F (aka Tweed):
    The think that really shook me when I was reading about Wilson was that, when you buy the basic culture war assumptions, his position has a certain logic to it. He is more extreme that the CBMW or your typical New Calvinist, but it is a difference of degree, not kind. It really made me stop and repent of some really messed up thinking on my part. It wasn’t that I agreed with Wilson, rather that I held common assumptions that logically led to his position. For instance, he has written that the abortion of babies of non-Christian mothers isn’t a tragedy because they are probably reprobate anyway. I don’t want to be anywhere on a spectrum that includes Doug Wilson at the extreme end.

    A few weeks ago, I made a formal announcement (read: I told my wife) that I am officially retired from the culture war. The problem with the culture war is what does a win actually look like. We see time and time again that the more power you give a Christian leader, the more likely they are to abuse it. Also, that power is much more scary when it has the imprimatur of religion. Also, I no longer believe I know who is and isn’t a Christian anymore. Trinitarian theology has been the only way I’ve been able to keep my faith over the past year. People like Baxter Kruger say that we have all died and been raised with Jesus, we just don’t realize it yet. That makes me see the value in all people and has destroyed the bright line between sacred and secular in my mind.

  98. Lowlandseer wrote:

    @ Lowlandseer:
    And this is how SBTS explain it
    http://equip.sbts.edu/article/integrating-counseling-and-discipleship-in-the-local-church/

    I get the impression they are starting with the assumption that anyone seeking counseling must be doing so because of a sin issue. Now in hypercalvinism, everybody is a worm, I get that. But people might seek counseling for a variety of reasons besides things like substance abuse. But I feel like the way SBTS worded that article that if you didn’t have a really big sin issue, you’d have no reason to seek a counselor. That certainly would lead to their treatment methods only being about sin.

    I got that impression when I was looking into IMB, even before the New Cal takeover. I had a professor at Liberty tell me not to tell them I had grief counseling after the death of my mother as a teenager, because the trustees wouldn’t allow anyone who had counseling for any reason besides premarital counseling. It seemed to me that getting counseling was treated as a sign of weakness and much of fundamentalism was all about putting on a show about who you were. So maybe that assumption predated the New Cals and fed into it.

  99. Again let me try to put some stuff in balance.

    I keep hearing fundamentalism this and fundamentalism that as far as requirements go. Yeah, well, compared to the world of international adoption some ‘fundamentalisms’ are mild and innocuous.

    Not all countries have all the same requirements, and requirements are apt to change from year to year, but requirements have been known to include strict rules about physical health, mental health history, marriage, work history/ skills, income, religious history, square feet per person of domicile and whether domicile is owned, money in the bank, and reasons for wanting to adopt. Some things in either physical health history or mental health history which in the US are considered minor may be the very thing that gets one denied adoption in some countries at certain times, or so it was when our family went through the process.

    One can be a super fundamentalist with far fewer requirements than on can adopt from certain countries.

    What I am saying is, of course, that always laying stuff at the feet of the fundamentalists is short sighted. Fundamentalists are not the only ones with rules.

  100. @ ishy:
    I think your comment is right on. When I believed in strong form total depravity, everything was my fault. Even if it wasn’t, my response to it surely was sinful and the situation wouldn’t seem so bad if I’d stop sinning. This is such a destructive thought process and leads to real bondage. I’m fighting to break free from that now and have a higher view of humanity. It’s evident that there is real brokenness in the world: we all know we aren’t all we could be. However, there is real good in the world and it comes from everywhere, not just from Christians.

    Telling someone they can’t get a job because they had counseling isn’t just immoral, it’s also stupid. If you have shown the courage to face your grief and admit you need some help, that only says good things about who you are. Freedom from having to work religious systems is why Christ died for us. Now we are free to be who he made us to be.

  101. @ okrapod:
    I think I get what you are saying, but to me, the problem with religious fundamentalism is it puts those rules between a person and God. Everywhere we go there are rules, and that will never change. In my experience, religious fundamentalism builds barriers between people and God, which is why I oppose it.

  102. Ricco wrote:

    Freedom from having to work religious systems is why Christ died for us. Now we are free to be who he made us to be.

    “If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed!” (John 8:36)

    New Calvinism is a movement which brings folks back under the letter of the law and bondage to a system of man’s interpretation of the Bible. There is life and freedom in Christ as the Holy Spirit leads you to Truth, rather than the teachings and traditions of mere men. Why would New Calvinist leaders want to do that?: (1) they truly believe that Calvinism = Gospel, and (2) sheep can be controlled under such teachings; authoritarians must control.

  103. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    * I say it’s obvious, but the logical next step for the flat-earthists is for a breakaway faction to form within them that denies the existence of the universe, the earth, everybody else, and eventually, themselves.

    Flat earth, meet flat universe!
    ‘Professor Kostas Skenderis of Mathematical Sciences at the University of Southampton explains: “Imagine that everything you see, feel and hear in three dimensions (and your perception of time) in fact emanates from a flat two-dimensional field. The idea is similar to that of ordinary holograms where a three-dimensional image is encoded in a two-dimensional surface, such as in the hologram on a credit card. However, this time, the entire universe is encoded.”‘
    Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2017-01-reveals-substantial-evidence-holographic-universe.html#jCp

  104. Ricco wrote:

    total depravity

    I’ve never seen a more totally depraved group of church folks than young people being drawn to New Calvinist church plants in my area. Pretty much anything goes for them and they justify it by being in church. They have not been set free in Christ because they are not discipled to believe they can be. The New Calvinists have substituted doctrines about grace, rather than a direct experience of Grace – an experience with the living Christ. These young folks talk about grace, grace, grace with little evidence that they have personally encountered Grace.

  105. Max wrote:

    These young folks talk about grace, grace, grace with little evidence that they have personally encountered Grace.

    Grace(TM) is The Party Line, nothing more.

    doubleplusgoodthink INGSOC,
    doupbleplusbellyfeel INGSOC,
    doubleplusduckspeak INGSOC.

  106. Ricco wrote:

    @ Dave A A:
    There are so many bad things I could say about that article, but I won’t. Ugh.

    The Bible tells us worms not to fear. This means you shouldn’t fear saying bad things about that article, right? 🙂

  107. Max wrote:

    These young folks talk about grace, grace, grace

    We’ve heard rumors (likely true) that one church in our small town was taken over by Calvinists a few years ago and now attracts many young people. Supposedly the pastor told another pastor “I don’t know how you manage with all those OLD people at your church.” Not surprisingly, Grace is that church’s first name.

  108. Ricco wrote:

    There are so many bad things I could say about that article, but I won’t. Ugh.

    Piper’s view of God seems to be a combination of Zeus and Molech.

  109. As the psychiatrist told us, the “sin thing” enters the equation AFTER the child who was abused has their own physical conditions addressed (in our son fragile x syndrome, bi polar disorder, and fetal alcohol syndrome) enough that they are capable of controlling their own actions. Not until then. And then after that, the “sin thing” doesn’t enter the equation until AFTER the child has adequate counselling to have gotten out the pain and be able to process it to the point they can control their own actions.

    But consider this: many of these abused children are victims of sexual abuse (that’s where our child’s ptsd came from.) It was appropriate from the get go, around 3, to set boundaries with other kids he could not cross without winding up in residential treatment for the safety of others. But during his teens sexual acting out (driven by his previous abuse and bipolar) became first wildly promiscuous behavior, then predatory behavior. More residential treatment.

    He is an adult now. If he preys on a child I can understand why, as I am sure all Wartburgers can understand. But I seriously doubt any person on this site would stand with him rather than the victim and say he is without sin. He finished a good education, can hold down a good job, professes Christ as his Savior, and can be a functioning citizen. If he rapes a kid, has he sinned?

    Yes.

  110. Dave A A wrote:

    Of course, as a CERN-O-Phobiac I’m trying to answer the question of whether it might BLOW up.

    In practice, antimatter will always blow up. But it’ll only do it one sub-atomic particle at a time.

  111. Ricco wrote:

    Trinitarian theology has been the only way I’ve been able to keep my faith over the past year. People like Baxter Kruger say that we have all died and been raised with Jesus, we just don’t realize it yet.

    You and I are brothers on this journey. A few years ago I did a deep-dive into New-Calvinism to try to understand how that theology did so much damage to my sons when they were in college. In the process it damaged me pretty badly as well, to the point that my wife thinks I have something like spiritual PTSD. I’ve been digging out of that pit though the writings and podcasts of people like Baxter Kruger, Paul Young, Brad Jersak, Steve McVey, and other people teaching trinitarian theology. Along the way I discovered that Eastern Orthodoxy has always believed in trinitarian theology, and that there are many writings from early church fathers that teach it. There are so many resources available that I almost don’t know what to read next. God is so much better than how he is described by Calvin.

  112. Daisy wrote:

    This title was on their recommended reading list?-

    “When People are Big and God Is Small by Ed Welch”

    LOL! I read that book a couple of years ago. It was awful and didn’t help me with my anxiety at all.

    It’s a victim-blaming type book, and from what I remember of it, his basic advice on how to conquer your fear of people is to remember God is bigger or more powerful than people, so why are you so afraid of people?

    I also read that book, and while I don’t remember any passages from it, that was the feeling I also got from the book: if you think people are big and God is small, it’s all your fault and you have to repent.

  113. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    trinitarian theology

    The current movement within reformed theology to subordinate the Son and diminish the ministry of the Holy Spirit is to preach trinitarian blasphemy.

  114. Lowlandseer wrote:

    This is how 9Marks explain it.

    Interestingly, one of the article’s suggestions is completely contrary to 9marx doctrine: “Think about preaching a series on discipleship.” The last thing a 9marx church would do is a topical series. For them it’s expository or nothing (or until they realize they need to preach on a topic). In fact, here is Jonathan Leeman sarcastically tearing apart topical sermons: https://www.9marks.org/article/maybe-i-do-want-topical-preaching/. I find New-Calvinism hopelessly inconsistent. They cannot even stick to their own rules because their rules don’t work.

  115. Max wrote:

    The current movement within reformed theology to subordinate the Son and diminish the ministry of the Holy Spirit is to preach trinitarian blasphemy.

    One has to read this for themselves to believe it is true: in Wayne Grudem’s Systematic Theology (the go-to ST book for New-Calvinists) he actually compares the Father to the husband, Jesus to the wife (who is subject to the husband’s authority), and the Spirit to the child (who is subject to the authority of both parents). This if formal heresy – it’s not even debatable. I forgot the page number, but it’s under the section on the Trinity.

  116. Ricco wrote:

    Telling someone they can’t get a job because they had counseling isn’t just immoral, it’s also stupid. If you have shown the courage to face your grief and admit you need some help, that only says good things about who you are. Freedom from having to work religious systems is why Christ died for us. Now we are free to be who he made us to be.

    It wasn’t just a choice I made, but it was required by the first university I attended. Even so, it is absolutely ridiculous.

    And most of the guys who made those decisions probably needed counseling more than anyone–some of them are the same men who’ve ended up on TWW for horrible things.

    It’s my opinion that much of the New Cal leadership should be confronting the sin of pride, but of course, that’s only a sin if you are a peon trying to find God’s will for yourself.

  117. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    One has to read this for themselves to believe it is true: in Wayne Grudem’s Systematic Theology (the go-to ST book for New-Calvinists) he actually compares the Father to the husband, Jesus to the wife (who is subject to the husband’s authority), and the Spirit to the child (who is subject to the authority of both parents).

    Yep, Grudem definitely makes this analogy. From his Systematic “Heresy”:

    “… the Father and the Son relate to one another as a father and son relate to one another in a human family: the father directs and has authority over the son, and the son obeys and is responsive to the directions of the father. The Holy Spirit is obedient to the directives of both the Father and the Son …

    … they are subordinate in their roles …

    … in the relationship between man and woman in marriage we see also a picture of the relationship between the Father and Son in the Trinity …

    … just as the Father has authority over the Son in the Trinity, so the husband has authority over the wife in marriage. The husband’s role is parallel to that of God the Father and the wife’s role is parallel to that of God the Son …

    … the gift of children within marriage, coming from both the father and the mother, and subject to the authority of both father and mother, is analogous to the relationship of the Holy Spirit to the Father and Son in the Trinity.”

    https://www.biblicaltraining.org/library/trinity-wayne-grudem

    New Calvinism claims to be orthodox in belief and practice … but beliefs like Grudem are about as unorthodox as you get when it comes to essential truths about the Trinity. The rest of Christendom rejects such views.

  118. @ Max:
    So only “the Father” (of the Trinity) or “the Dad” (humanly speaking) end up as independent adults, with agency (i.e., personal responsibility, personal authority, power of choice, personal rights)? Everyone else, and always women, are relegated to being life-long dependent children?

  119. @ Max:
    Thanks for finding a link to these quotes. I think you left out an important piece (bolded):

    And, although it is not explicitly mentioned in Scripture, the gift of children within marriage, coming from both the father and the mother, and subject to the authority of both father and mother, is analogous to the relationship of the Holy Spirit to the Father and Son in the Trinity.

    He built a theology around something not in the Bible and not supported by church history. Why can’t New-Calvinists see the problem with this?

  120. @ JYJames:
    Exactly. If you can get folks to buy “Eternal Subordination of the Son”, it’s easier to convince them that women are to be subordinate to men.

  121. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    you left out an important piece (bolded):

    “And, although it is not explicitly mentioned in Scripture …”

    Indeed! Grudem is taking tremendous liberty with Scripture to subordinate the Son in order to support a reformed grid of belief and practice that elevates men at the expense of women. A sick way to twist Scripture, by diminishing Jesus! In the Kingdom of God, there are no distinctions between race, class and gender … only in Grudem’s kingdom. These guys must have not liked their mamas.

  122. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    Why can’t New-Calvinists see the problem with this?

    Their eyes are still veiled to Truth. Putting your trust in the teachings and traditions of men will do that to you.

  123. Max wrote:

    @ JYJames:
    Exactly. If you can get folks to buy “Eternal Subordination of the Son”, it’s easier to convince them that women are to be subordinate to men.

    They also subordinate men to the elders but they really understate it until a man starts asking tough questions that “subverts their authority”, then it’s straight to church discipline. They bait many young men with promises of a wife that will be a slave and maybe an eldership one day, but they really want to enslave those men as well.

    Many of them men I’ve known who have been attracted to it are so because of the New Cals’ constant harping on their intellectual superiority and because they have a lust to have power over somebody. Except that only reading New Cal authors is exactly opposite of being an intellectual and by signing a covenant, those men are basically giving up their competency. It’s all a facade.

  124. @ Max:
    I think that is the key, and why he is willing to violate sola scriptura, a belief that he would argue for vigorously. He looked out at the culture, saw that it was changing, and decided he didn’t like it. He came up with a solution and then fit his theology to his solution. That is backwards. It turns a much needed debate over complementarianism into a debate over the character of God, which divides the church.

  125. ishy wrote:

    only reading New Cal authors is exactly opposite of being an intellectual

    It ain’t very smart either! Not to mention, extremely dangerous to your spiritual health.

  126. @ Ricco:
    Agreed. Add to that, an arrogant desire to be known in Christendom. Ivory-tower theologians don’t get much attention until they come out of obscurity by taking radical positions on Scripture. Everybody knows Grudem now! But to mess with the Trinity … whew, dangerous ground!

  127. @ Ken F (aka Tweed):
    Great to know I have a brother out there! My story has some similarities to yours. I had known some Calvinists in college at InterVarsity Christian Fellowship and read some of their books. I was also really turned off by “alter-call Arminianism” as I call it. After my parents marriage issues and my mom’s suicide, I think I turned to Calvinism as a way to medicate my pain and to assert control that my life would turn out better. For a young guy in pain, here were smart sounding people saying that if you work this system, things will go well for you.

    Through some of the experiences I mentioned in previous comments, I got to a place where it just wouldn’t work anymore. I didn’t know why yet, but I knew I would loose my whole faith if I kept trying to force the tragedies in my life into the rubric of God’s Sovereignty as formulated by Calvinists.

    One night last spring, I decided to start reading the Shack. I had read it before, but I don’t think I was ready. This time, I read the whole book in one night and sobbed like a baby. I knew in my gut I was reading truth. I then watched a bunch of videos of Paul Young on YouTube and discovered The Shack Revisited videos with Baxter Kruger.

    I am still working through all of this in my head. Some days it’s easier to hold on than others. I’m so grateful to be on the road of walking with my Father and the assurance that it brings.

  128. ishy wrote:

    New Cals’ constant harping on their intellectual superiority and because they have a lust to have power over somebody.

    This isn’t just a neo calvinist affectation. The Pentecostal church my wife attends has a very strong anti science bent. They’re open minded only insofar as them telling you the correct belief.
    The evangelical free church down the road sent out an advertising pamphlet. It seemed ok until you got to the section where once you believe in Jesus you must not fall into the trap of iquisitiveness. Ie don’t question what the church teaches.
    This is all about control. No denomination is really free from it.

  129. @ Ken F (aka Tweed):
    That’s why they invented the doctrine of creation order. Historically, patriarchy as a result of the fall, was accepted with little question until the suffragettes of which many were Christians. But as that became more intimidating within the seminary-church systems they needed a doctrinal angle for shaming. Creation order was pre fall and therefore perfect although untenable for obvious reasons we have discussed here many times.

    What blows my mind is Grudem has been drilled into the heads of many young minds as brilliant. Not just SBC seminaries, either. I view seminaries with a suspicious eye these days for many reasons besides this one. But it’s a biggie.

  130. @ Ricco:
    Your story mirrors some of the things I have witnessed at ground zero of the neo Cal movement. Guess who does well in that movement? Those who make a living from it or those given title, like elder, who have never felt important before. (They tend to pick those types). The plebes in the pews often end up with very different experiences. Some are extremely sad. It’s almost as if they have to go through some deprogramming if they are to have faith.

    When we add “determinism” to suffering the results are horrifying and fatalistic. Life itself produces suffering. It’s inevitable for everyone to differing degrees. Our mission as believers is to alleviate as much as possible.

    Calvin told his assistant to tell those begging him to come and pray over plague victims that he was too important to the church to take the risk. Ironically, determinism did not play into that decision. His protege, Castellio went. Later he was banished and ruined for defying Calvin in other ways, too. Determinism is cruel whether secular or religious.

  131. Max wrote:

    @ JYJames:
    Exactly. If you can get folks to buy “Eternal Subordination of the Son”, it’s easier to convince them that women are to be subordinate to men.

    Sadly, they appear to have been successful in doing this.

  132. @ Lydia:
    What really terrified me was when I thought my mom had no choice in whether she took her own life. That is where determinism cloaked we God’s Sovereignty left me. Then, why wouldn’t I be next. If she had no power to choose to live, how could I know I would make a different decision. When I realized that’s what I was thinking, I had to change.

    I think for some people, not all, that theology is just a game. And it doesn’t matter as much what you believe when everything is going well. But when it all falls apart, what you believe is all you have. If it can’t work in those circumstances, it needs to be disregarded.

  133. Lydia wrote:

    What blows my mind is Grudem has been drilled into the heads of many young minds as brilliant. Not just SBC seminaries, either. I view seminaries with a suspicious eye these days for many reasons besides this one. But it’s a biggie.

    Maybe they assume that their inability to make sense of it means they don’t have the necessary intelligence and brilliance to understand it. Rather, they should consider that their inability to understand it is because this theology makes no sense. New-Calvinists baffle with BS. I wish more of them would challenge it rather than accept it so uncritically. On the other hand, I did do a critical review and got hurt in the process. One can only spend so much time digging around in that pit of poison without actually getting poisoned by it.

  134. Lydia wrote:

    But as that became more intimidating within the seminary-church systems they needed a doctrinal angle for shaming.

    This is where “Biblical Counseling” comes in…

  135. Ricco wrote:

    I then watched a bunch of videos of Paul Young on YouTube and discovered The Shack Revisited videos with Baxter Kruger.

    I downloaded the audio from that series and spent time working through it while walking my dog in the evenings. It helped quite a lot. Grace Communion International has an interesting video/audio series called “You’re Included” – all of the interviews are with trinitarian theologians from different backgrounds, including Kruger and Young. That is another series I worked through while dog-walking (I have the best dog on the planet). Right now I’m just about finished reading “A More Christlike God” by Brad Jersak – I highly recommend it because it offers a much older (more Orthodox) and more consistent view of God.

  136. @ Ken F (aka Tweed):
    Thanks Ken! I have watched a number of The You’re Included videos. My favorite thing about them is the people they interview are very diverse in terms of backgrounds: Anglican, Methodist, former Calvinists, former head of YoungLife. If watched a Brad Jersak talk. I’ll have to check out that book.

  137. @ Ken F (aka Tweed):
    Q. How does “Biblical” counseling deal with a person who has been abused/raped since the counseling is based on the individuals sin? Does it use moral equivalency forgiveness arguments since all are depraved? I could never figure that out. The person who may need therapy the most from a horror would be the most injured by it.

    My experience with Neo Calvinism is that it seeks to desensitize us to evil. Because everything is totally depraved (we are all sinning all the time) This leads me to believe their type of counseling is just more indoctrination.

  138. @ Ken F (aka Tweed):
    Totally agree it’s a pit of poison. The older mainlines moved away from the determinist focus without repudiating it and survived. The Neo Cal movement was like a redeaux of Puritanism, Johnathan Edwards, etc. Peter Lumpkins is writing a dissertation on its devolution in America. He often posts historical tidbits he finds and it’s interesting to read things from early and mid 1800’s questioning some of its basic tenants.

    I get a kick out of it when I come across some of the things John Adams wrote about Calvinism. He found it the scourge of the earth.

    This time,however, it’s been debated and analyzed by the peasants in the public square. And the Neo Cal leaders are desperately trying to change the subject now. Problem is, they indoctrinated a lot of young true believers in Seminary who were dispatched to churches. And it’s not working out well at all.

  139. Ricco, I’m very interested to know more about your story. My husband and I are currently considering another child after a hellacious pregnancy that found me in preterm labor at 25 weeks. I spent 9 weeks on the edge of a knife while on hospital bed rest before giving birth to our son at 34 weeks. Very few people can relate to our story. I don’t want to post my email publically but maybe the deebs can connect us? Thanks. @ Ricco:

  140. Also, I could write a book about the topic of biblical counseling, but I’ll just say that it only hurt me, and I didn’t find any real help until I did the hard work through the secular DBT program (along with medication). I’m happy to share my story anonymously or privately. There is hope!! But not always where Christians say it will be.

  141. Determinism drives some schools of psychology also. There are docs out there that will take the attitude “A happened to you so you WILL do B.” Very harmful to someone seeking help so they DON’T do B and very aware of their high risk status.

  142. @ Ricco:
    That just boils my blood! I do understand because I know of similar horrors. Like a child dying in a freak accident that God “controlled”. (Try arguing that) Or a baby “chosen” to be born dead. Oh yes, I ran across that so much here. These people were like zombies from a war zone. There is an evil to it that I cannot explain because it is so believable when one is in it. (You don’t believe God is Sovereign, heretic?)

    You are so right that it falls apart when there is personal tragedy because the foundational premise is God did it to you and suck it up because suffering makes you more holy. (No, your trust in His eternal promise gets you through the suffering)

    It became very frustrating just trying to fight it and present the view that God IS man centered —not a narcissist! God loves us, wants us to mature and wants us to take responsibility for our little corners of the world, He wants us to encourage one another and because of God, we can know ourselves. Calvinism has us believing we are alien to ourselves. Our hearts are wicked so we can never know ourselves. Proof texted Lies.

    My view is their biggest Achilles heel was/is Jesus Christ. He just doesn’t fit their doctrine at all. So, they subordinated Him and leave Him out. A lot.. I used to drive everyone nuts saying, Jesus is God in the flesh! I am pretty much out of church now. At ground zero, even some Methodists here have Neo Cal pastors. Besides. I have a distaste toward adults needing another adult to be in charge of their spiritual growth. A potential disaster in so many ways. I will listen to scholars, especially ancients scholars, as I find them very helpful with interpretation. I have thoroughly enjoyed Baxter Kruger (Thanks Ken!). Don’t agree with all of it, but it’s much needed opposite sunlight. As is the eccentric and charismatic Francois du Toit. You may enjoy his Mirror bible translations. He even has an app.

    God bless you, Ricco. You have been through the valley. I pray peace and sunlight for you.

  143. Lydia wrote:

    Q. How does “Biblical” counseling deal with a person who has been abused/raped since the counseling is based on the individuals sin?

    My snarky answer is they will focus on what that person did to cause the abuse. I’m sure there are people doing it that mean well but have been duped into being a tool for the enemy.

  144. Lydia wrote:

    Life itself produces suffering. It’s inevitable for everyone to differing degrees. Our mission as believers is to alleviate as much as possible.

    Simple but profound, great words to live by.

  145. Lydia wrote:

    Life itself produces suffering. It’s inevitable for everyone to differing degrees. Our mission as believers is to alleviate as much as possible.

    Piper used to tell his followers not to waste their suffering! The New Calvinists in my area seem to go looking for something to suffer with … as sort of a pass into the club of the elect. As you note, days of suffering may come and we are called to minister to hurting people … not go looking for it as a badge of personal holiness or load more weight on those who are afflicted by telling them to endure suffering, rather than helping them through it.

  146. Max wrote:

    Piper used to tell his followers not to waste their suffering! The New Calvinists in my area seem to go looking for something to suffer with … as sort of a pass into the club of the elect.

    Masochism as PROOF to themselves that they are the Elect.

    These days I figure that ALL these shticks the Calvinists glom onto — getting rich, amassing power, perfectly-parsing their theology, masochistic suffering — are all ways they’re trying to PROVE to themselves that they are Really Truly Elect, and not one of those Reprobates to whom God Wills a False Assurance of Election.

  147. Lydia wrote:

    What blows my mind is Grudem has been drilled into the heads of many young minds as brilliant.

    So has Kim Jong-Un.

  148. Lydia wrote:

    Guess who does well in that movement? Those who make a living from it or those given title, like elder, who have never felt important before. (They tend to pick those types).

    “Brewery-wagon driver rescued from obscurity by his beloved Nazis.”
    — Leon Uris, Armageddon: a Novel of Berlin, regarding a fictional death-camp Kommandant

  149. Max wrote:

    But to mess with the Trinity … whew, dangerous ground!

    Doesn’t that defeat the whole purpose of the exercise?

  150. ishy wrote:

    Many of them men I’ve known who have been attracted to it are so because of the New Cals’ constant harping on their intellectual superiority and because they have a lust to have power over somebody. Except that only reading New Cal authors is exactly opposite of being an intellectual

    “You don’t need any Intellect to be an Intellectual.”
    — G.K.Chesterton, one of the Father Brown Mysteries

  151. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    I’m sure there are people doing it that mean well but have been duped

    That’s one of the disturbing things to me about the New Calvinist movement and its off-shoots like Nouthetic counseling. A great multitude of well-meaning folks looking for a deeper walk of faith have been fooled into thinking New Calvinism is the avenue for attaining that. The leaders who are taking advantage of the spiritually naive will have a price to pay for leading them astray.

  152. JYJames wrote:

    Everyone else, and always women, are relegated to being life-long dependent children?

    With Benefits (nudge nudge wink wink know what I mean know what I mean…)

  153. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    they’re trying to PROVE to themselves that they are Really Truly Elect, and not one of those Reprobates to whom God Wills a False Assurance of Election.

    Evanescent Grace, the sixth point of Calvinism that no Calvinist will acknowledge…

  154. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    Evanescent Grace, the sixth point of Calvinism that no Calvinist will acknowledge…

    Piper calls himself a 7-point Calvinist. He affirms the classical 5 points (TULIP) + double predestination + the best-of-all-possible worlds. He also likes to refer to himself as a Christian Hedonist. The man is out there.

  155. @ Muff Potter:

    Sigh, Yeah. I know. I have never really fit the “damsel in distress” mode. But for a good long while I was hook like and sinker “correct” in my theology. You know what the problem is with a woman who is “correct” in her theology? No matter how “correct” she is, she is too strong to really be “feminine.” The result of which is that eventually, those strong “correct” women get out.

  156. ___

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  157. Max wrote:

    s to buy “Eternal Subordination of the Son”, it’s easier to convince them that women are to be subordinate to men.

    And women are so far down (so distant from God) on that “umbrella theology” ladder that I don’t see how God can even hear our screams, let alone our prayers!

  158. ishy wrote:

    They also subordinate men to the elders but they really understate it until a man starts asking tough questions that “subverts their authority”, then it’s straight to church discipline.

    In watching “The Crown” on Netflix recently, there was the scene where a young Elizabeth is told that she is appointed/chosen by God as His representative. Brings to mind God appointing the Emperor as God’s representative over the hierarchal layers of a kingdom society.

    Thought Jesus died to save us from all that, in the spiritual realm at the very least, (keeping in mind: render unto Caesar taxes due, get to work on time in the morning, etc.).

  159. @ Lydia:
    I’m a bit confused by this. There are records that show that Calvin had visited plague victims in Strasbourg a few years before the Geneva outbreak. Also, in a letter to Viret in October 1542 he states that if anything happened to the one who had been appointed to visit the sick, he himself would do it, making the point that it was their duty to do so.
    He wrote: “The pestilence also begins to rage here with greater violence, and few who are at all affected by it escape its ravages.[ 381] One of our colleagues was to be set apart for attendance upon the sick. Because Peter offered himself, all readily acquiesced.[ 382] If anything happens to him, I fear that I must take the risk upon myself, for as you observe, because we are debtors to one another, we must not be wanting to those who, more than any others, stand in need of our ministry.[ 383] And yet it is not my opinion, that while we wish to provide for one portion we are at liberty to neglect the body of the Church itself. But so long as we are in this ministry, I do not see that any pretext will avail us, if, through fear of infection, we are found wanting in the discharge of our duty when there is most need of our assistance.”

    I only know this because I’ve been ploughing through the letters of Calvin this year. Perhaps Drstevej knows more about it.

  160. @ Lowlandseer:

    Calvin was not head of the church in Strasbourg. I don’t have time or inclination to look for the source. The world of Calvin is like a black pit to me. It was most likely from Castellio sources. But it all runs together for me after all these years. You are free to not believe it as many of his admirers don’t believe he banished and financially ruined Castellio, either. He also said many things that were not modeled. He even whined in a letter about his treatment after burning Servetus.

  161. @ Max:
    My favorite Orwell quote. Wisdom is often deemed as anti intellectual. Or even anti education. (college shopping is making that more and more clear to me)

  162. @ Lydia:
    It was from Castellio but the origin of it seems to have come from a book on Erasmus. As for being free to not believe all the bad stuff about Calvin, you are equally free to not believe any of the good stuff about him. It goes back to what I said a few years back about each of us being in our own little bubble with our own presuppositions and preferences. Long live Van Til!

  163. Lydia wrote:

    Wisdom is often deemed as anti intellectual.

    “Let no one be under any illusion over this. If any man among you thinks himself one of the world’s clever ones, let him discard his cleverness that he may learn to be truly wise. For this world’s cleverness is stupidity to God. It is written: ‘He catches the wise in their own craftiness’.” (1 Cor 3:19 Phillips)

  164. Max wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    Wisdom is often deemed as anti intellectual.

    “Let no one be under any illusion over this. If any man among you thinks himself one of the world’s clever ones, let him discard his cleverness that he may learn to be truly wise. For this world’s cleverness is stupidity to God. It is written: ‘He catches the wise in their own craftiness’.” (1 Cor 3:19 Phillips)

    Max, when I was in-country THAT VERSE WAS USED TO JUSTIFY “HOLY NINCOMPOOP”, i.e. THE STUPIDER I AM, THE GODLIER I MUST BE. Any use of intelligence or even common sense was “fleshly” and/or “worldly”. Then “More Godly Than Thou” one-upmanship would set in and it was a Race to the Bottom.

  165. Jack wrote:

    The evangelical free church down the road sent out an advertising pamphlet. It seemed ok until you got to the section where once you believe in Jesus you must not fall into the trap of iquisitiveness. Ie don’t question what the church teaches.
    This is all about control. No denomination is really free from it.

    EFCA actually has taken a strong bent toward New Calvinism and is definitely influenced by it, at least in the US. Wondering Eagle has been tracking that movement: https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/06/27/analyzing-the-growth-of-reformed-theologyneo-calvinism-in-the-evangelical-free-church-of-america-efca-west/

    I agree that many denominations want control over their members. That wasn’t quite what I meant, though. The reason many of these “young, restless, and reformed” men are running to New Cal authors is this shared fantasy that they are smarter and “more biblical” than everybody else. Their mantra for anyone that rejects any of Calvinism’s tenets is “You just don’t really understand it” because they can’t fathom that people might disagree with them and be right.

    I think it has to do with the prolific nature of New Cal writers and the smug attitudes most of them have, but I have to admit that I’ve always been rather mystified by it. YRR read what they are told, do what they are told, and only associate with each other. It definitely goes along with the New Cal theology about men being supreme, even to the point of comparing themselves to God, but everything they stand for goes completely against the model of Christ.

  166. dee wrote:

    I would love to hear what your mother did.

    Back along the Biblical counseling line, when I was in 4th grade I was fearful of going to school. Eventually I faked being sick. If my parents had taken me to a Biblical counselor (this was before there were even Nouthetic ones) I’m thinking they would have pointed me to verses about studying to shew myself approved, telling the truth, fearing not, trusting in Jesus, etc. But, first of all, I didn’t even believe in Jesus and I’m not sure they would have helped me in that department. And there was something REAL to fear– the teacher. The day before I pretended to be sick, she had turned my desk around backwards. My mother’s solution was first to get me to say what was wrong. Then she marched into the principal’s office and got the desk turned round the right way. I still had real fears to cope with in that classroom, but facing the back wall was no longer one of them.

  167. Speaking of counseling and trauma…sorry to go on a tangent a bit, but I could use help. My husband had an online affair 3.5 years ago. (There was an emotional and sexual component, though they never met). He considered divorcing me. We are Christians. I forgave him. We saw a nice male Christian counselor for a bit. Guys, I’m just not well. I think I could have PTSD from this junk. I feel like a failure that I am still depressed about it when he repented and is overall a good guy. It’s like I want to escape myself and the pain. I also wish I knew some other women in my shoes.

  168. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    There is nothing stupid About Wisdom despite idiots at church who want to control. Frankly one can be considered “uneducated” by our standards, yet wise. That usually comes as result of experience and responsibility from a very young age. To believe that verse means one should stay ignorant IS unwise.

    There is nothing wise about using Bible verses to try to prove that one is wise when they aren’t. Or, to try and keep others from “obtaining” wisdom for themselves.

    The wisest thing in the world would be if we would learn from other people’s mistakes. But usually we have to make them ourselves to learn anything from them. Not wise as I well know. 🙂

    We would also have to Define education. Part of education is questioning what one is taught. At least asking “why”. Not just “how”. It starts young. Example: the way our education system is now teaching math is “unwise”. Yet they are considered “educated”.

    Very glad you are “outcountry”!

  169. Max wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    HUG, you sure hung out with some bad actors in church – sorry you experienced that.

    I wasn’t the only one. JMJ over at what used to be Christian Monist had a couple horror stories about churches who always appointed the least experienced/skilled one to a job, bypassing those with the actual skills and/or experience. The idea was to make sure the staffer “walked in the Spirit instead of the Flesh”. So the guy with no money sense would be put in charge of the treasury, etc.

  170. ishy wrote:

    The reason many of these “young, restless, and reformed” men are running to New Cal authors is this shared fantasy that they are smarter and “more biblical” than everybody else.

    Listen to the Cold War Kid Genius with the 160 IQ (estimated):

    BEING “SMARTER THAN EVERYBODY ELSE” HAS ITS DOWNSIDE.
    A SEVERE DOWNSIDE.
    Wesley Crusher and Doogie Houser are the FANTASY of the Kid Genius.
    NOT the Reality.

  171. ishy wrote:

    I think it has to do with the prolific nature of New Cal writers and the smug attitudes most of them have, but I have to admit that I’ve always been rather mystified by it. YRR read what they are told, do what they are told, and only associate with each other.

    Read “Lure of the Inner Ring” by C.S.Lewis.

    They see themselves as the Inner Ring, like the fanatical hangers-on in every mass movement, riding the New Order to the Top.

    “Look at you now! Changing the face of Europe!”
    — “Holocaust” (Seventies Miniseries), outside Babi Yar

    “RULERS OF TOMORROW! MASTER RACE!”
    — Ralph Bakshi’s knockoff “Wizards”

  172. Lowlandseer wrote:

    @ Lydia:
    It was from Castellio but the origin of it seems to have come from a book on Erasmus. As for being free to not believe all the bad stuff about Calvin, you are equally free to not believe any of the good stuff about him. It goes back to what I said a few years back about each of us being in our own little bubble with our own presuppositions and preferences. Long live Van Til!

    I have spent quite a bit of time in both bubbles. (Especially at ground zero the last 15 years)

    And you are right. I favor my presuppositions concerning what I believe about Christianity, basic decent behaviors in not seeking to control others through authoritarian means of deception and force.

    Historically, I believe Calvin and the subsequent authoritarian determinism legacy/copycats produced more harm than good, overall.

    It’s one of the reason why the mainlines watered down their determinism. The descendents of the Puritans, too.

    My earliest memory of reading hero worship on Van Til was when I was researching the patriarchy movement and came across Rushdoony. As I researched more of that world, I saw that Van Til is big hero in what I consider to be oppressive authoritarian Reformed circles.

    I certainly uphold people’s rights to practice their faith and even criticize other religions. Calvin did not. There were even laws against publicly criticizing him!

  173. @ Thersites:
    Thank you, I will. Frankly, it’s the teen who is very picky. She wants academics not sjw. And most of her diverse friends feel the same way. It’s uncanny.

  174. Jarrett Edwards wrote:

    The wages of sin IS death, as in when we die we are separated from God and the saints because of our sin, without the blood of Jesus, we do not pay for our sins on earth, but in the afterlife. Therefore, any psychological problem or trauma we face now cannot be the wages of sin.

    At the risk of going on a tangent, your comment brought a New Testament reference — 1 Cor. 11:29-30 — to mind: “For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.”

    Of course, we also have in John 9 those who saw a physical infirmity — blindness — and only considered that the condition could’ve been the result of personal or generational sin, something which Jesus ruled out.

  175. @ Lydia:

    I got to know Van Til a bit when I was at Westminster. He would eat lunch regularly with students. He was always gracious to me and had that reputation among those who knew him well.

  176. Max wrote:

    Ricco wrote:
    Freedom from having to work religious systems is why Christ died for us. Now we are free to be who he made us to be.
    “If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed!” (John 8:36)
    New Calvinism is a movement which brings folks back under the letter of the law and bondage to a system of man’s interpretation of the Bible. There is life and freedom in Christ as the Holy Spirit leads you to Truth, rather than the teachings and traditions of mere men. Why would New Calvinist leaders want to do that?: (1) they truly believe that Calvinism = Gospel, and (2) sheep can be controlled under such teachings; authoritarians must control.

    (3) Those salaries, church building programs, and book deals aren’t going to pay for themselves.

  177. Lowlandseer wrote:

    I’m a bit confused by this. There are records that show that Calvin had visited plague victims in Strasbourg a few years before the Geneva outbreak. Also, in a letter to Viret in October 1542 he states that if anything happened to the one who had been appointed to visit the sick, he himself would do it, making the point that it was their duty to do so.

    Between the Strasbourg & Geneva outbreaks, Calvin’s idea of his own Personal Importance to the Cause may have grown. Like the pattern of a Celebrity coming to believe his own PR hype.

  178. Lydia wrote:

    @ Thersites:
    Thank you, I will. Frankly, it’s the teen who is very picky. She wants academics not sjw. And most of her diverse friends feel the same way. It’s uncanny.

    They must be Re-Educated to the Cause, Comrade.

  179. Castellion was savagely attacked in the preface of Calvin and Beza’s Bible de Geneve, (he had also translated the Bible into French)

    http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k108678p/f9.item.r=testament.zoom

    “Car au lieu qu’un temps a esté’qu’il n’y auoit point de translation Françoise de l’Escripture, au moins qui meritast ce nom: maintenant Satan a trouué autant de translateurs qu’il y a d’esprits legers & oultrecuidez qui manient les Escriptures: & trouuera encores desormais de plus en plus, si Dieu n’y pouruoit par sa grace. Si on en demande quelque exemple, nous en produirons vn qui seruira pour plusieurs, c’est a scauoir la translation de la Bible Latine & Francoise en auant par Sebastian Chastillon, homme si bien cognu en ceste Eglise tant par son ingratitude & impudence, que par la peine qu’on a per due apres luy pour le reduire au bon chemin, que nous ferions conscience, non seulement de taire son nom (comme iusques ici nous auons fait) mais aussi de n’aduertir tous Chrestiens de se garder d’vn tel personnage, comme instrument choisi de Satan pour amuser tous esprits volages & indiscrets.”

    “Satan has translators….such as Sebastian Castellion….silence him….warn all Christians to beware of such a character, the chosen instrument of Satan”

    This, in a Bible? Sick.

  180. Jerome wrote:

    “Satan has translators….such as Sebastian Castellion….silence him….warn all Christians to beware of such a character, the chosen instrument of Satan”
    This, in a Bible? Sick.

    A 500-year-old personal feud.

    “AND I AM A VENGEFUL BEING!”
    — Dr Gene Scott

  181. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Between the Strasbourg & Geneva outbreaks, Calvin’s idea of his own Personal Importance to the Cause may have grown. Like the pattern of a Celebrity coming to believe his own PR hype.

    That was my first thought as well. Just because he seemed one way early on doesn’t mean that stuck.

  182. Lydia wrote:

    Example: the way our education system is now teaching math is “unwise”. Yet they are considered “educated”.

    It’s because our public tax-supported ‘education’ system is run by sheltered bureaucrats who are divorced from reality, and who make policy with no accountability.

  183. Marie wrote:

    Speaking of counseling and trauma…sorry to go on a tangent a bit, but I could use help. My husband had an online affair 3.5 years ago. (There was an emotional and sexual component, though they never met). He considered divorcing me. We are Christians. I forgave him. We saw a nice male Christian counselor for a bit. Guys, I’m just not well. I think I could have PTSD from this junk. I feel like a failure that I am still depressed about it when he repented and is overall a good guy. It’s like I want to escape myself and the pain. I also wish I knew some other women in my shoes.

    Marie,

    My mother dissociated (split mentally and emotionally) when my father told her of his affair (because his paramour was going to if he didn’t) and spent the next about 15 years in distress. So yes, you could well still be in difficulties. Do you have the resources to do individual counselling, with a TRAINED, CONFIDENTIAL counsellor? The anger, betrayal and rending of the foundations of the relationship and your view of yourself and him are deep and profound. If he’s telling you or implying that you should be “over it”, he’s NOT a nice guy and you’ll probably want to research a concept called “gaslighting”. For some, an affair is the equivalent of a butcher knife to the heart of the relationship – think about the amount of healing time that would take and the ongoing difficulties, if that were in the physical realm. For resources, if you can’t get good counselling – Why Does He Do That by Lundy Bancroft, Boundaries by Cloud & Townsend, anything by Gottman or the Gottman Institute. We see your story and stand witness. You are valuable.

  184. @ Marie:

    Been there and done that 35+ years ago, except we divorced. Dealing which a new reality after this sort of thing is far more complicated that just getting over it or feeling better or any similar idea. If you can get good counseling then by all means do that. But do not demand of yourself, or let anybody demand of you, that you shake it off in any specific period of time, especially not some short period of time. After such an experience as yours one does not just un-experience it; memories do not evaporate and the need to live life through different perspectives takes time to adjust to. Do listen to yourself, and pay attention when yourself tries to tell yourself something; believe in yourself; love yourself; nurture yourself. I know it sounds trite, but Jesus loves you and so do we.

  185. Jerome wrote:

    This, in a Bible? Sick.

    My wife is a native French speaker (but not French herself). I asked her what she thought of that introduction. She said it’s one of the most vile things she has ever read by someone claiming to be a Christian. It is old French – she could give a great translation, but she said it is too grotesque to put her mind toward such filth. What makes it so filthy is the outlandish, outrageous, and viciousness that Calvin expressed toward another believer who went through the painstaking task of translating the Bible into common French. It’s pure character assassination.

  186. @ Jerome:
    @Jerome, sorry for not being able to use the accent aigu… and accent grave… A toi : Francophone?…. thank you for posting and participating…

  187. Let me be clear : John Calvin is acting as if HE was the “judge of all things, the judge of all hearts, and the Ultimate Judge who decides who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell. Is it not written “every man stands or falls to his own master” ? As far as I know, Jean Calvin was not divinely endowed with the ability to read minds let alone hearts!! Let me go “French” for one moment : Franchement, absolument repugnant et degoutant! (translated : honestly, absolutely repugnant and disgusting!)
    Please do not pay attention to such folly!….. Is it not also written ” it is for freedom that you were set free”? Is Christ’s sacrifice on the cross worth that little in Jean Calvin’s opinion ? Who died and made HIM pope ?

  188. K.D. wrote:

    I wonder what they consider a ” sexual sin?” Enjoying it? Or worse she enjoys it…..(I may get banned, sorry if I’ve offended)

    I have yet to see one of these Christian man-bros suggest paying attention to a woman’s pleasure during sex.

  189. ___

    501(c)3 Solutions Providers: “Is There Any Buddy In There, Perhaps?”

    hmmm…

    Conformity numb?

    bump.

    The Wartburg Watch Blog and It’s Comment Section HAVE Apparently Ceased To Be A Solution Provider, Perhaps?

    huh?

    Unlike (for example) resupply efforts from SpaceX and Orbital ATK to the International Space Station, there are apparently no ships coming from distant shores now to successfully ‘resupply’ The Wartburg Watch blog.

    Yet now empty on solutions, broad on criticism & complaints…

    What?

    Another NOW -out for blood blog, biteth?

    Could b.

    As a reminder, Jesus and his crew brought to their efforts broad solutions to man’s problems…

    Where are they NOW?

    (sadface)

    “Ride Wartburg, ride, to a solution others might have missed…”

    —->“Faith is the substances of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen…”

    ATB

    Sòpy
    —-
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O0i7-xqRF0s
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1OMv3ueXUoc
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t6NiQ4bOMAI

    😉

    – –

  190. dee wrote:

    Loren Haas wrote:
    I used it through three editions. In the third edition they started using “Biblical Counselors” as featured experts, as well as the usual very qualified licensed clinicians both male and female. I can only guess that the late inclusion of these well know “Biblical Counselors” is to make the program more acceptable in some conservative evangelical churches.
    That is most interesting. There is one book my Martha Peace in the recommended training line up who appears to be weak on abuse. I need to do some more reading.Do you notice, in the training lineup, that there is NO discussion on abuse?

    Just read some of the negative reviews on Martha Peace’s “‘The Excellent Wife.” One review has actual quotes from the book which are alarming. Any woman who would take Peace’s advice is in for a rude awakening. She might as well leave her mind at the door and abandon common sense.

  191. Kathi wrote:

    I’m still disconcerted about how little time these people actually spend in learning and are considered capable of counseling merely because they know their Bible.

    Licensed professionals may spend 30 hours learning one therapy, followed by months of consultation! So yeah, that seems really short.

    I think lay counseling has its place, but the program my church uses specifically mentions a longish list of people who need a higher level of help, including those who are suicidal and abusers. it seems to be more for people going through a rough patch.

    The two biggest problems with biblical counseling seem to be it’s approach (everything is about your sin) and not recognizing the limitations of lay counseling.

  192. Divorce Minister wrote:

    DivorceCare was useful for me. However, I had some very good local leaders, and that makes a very BIG difference! One of the many issues I have/had with DivorceCare was a strong bias to push against the divorce. It struck too close to what I call is “The Shared Responsibility Lie” (http://www.divorceminister.com/shared-responsibility-lie/) where they encouraged even victims of abuse and abandonment to “own their part.”
    Sometimes of the bad options–stay in an abusive marriage or divorce–divorce is the better and I dare say even more godly option, IMO.

    Yeah, right. Like owning your own part might mean, the husband smacked you for burning the dinner. Well then, don’t burn the dinner and he won’t smack you.

  193. Forrest wrote:

    Ricco wrote:
    Our church always tells stories of how you should ask your “leader” if you should date a certain girl. In my opinion, if this is just advice, it’s not abusive. If it is done under the heading of “spiritual authority,” it is very abusive.
    If your church is using the word ‘should’ then it has already taken a position being in authority over you in this matter. It is interfering and more likely than not abusive. The more so because they are prepared to come out and take this position.

    Bingo, Forrest! You were quite observant. “Should” ask a leader about who to date? Why? That in itself is treating the person as if they are not an adult. Further, in a Christian context it is treating the person as if the Holy Spirit cannot lead them to the right partner, but they need intervention from the “leaders”. This is a Red Flag that they have issues with controlling parishioners’ lives.

  194. Lydia wrote:

    @ Ricco:
    Your story mirrors some of the things I have witnessed at ground zero of the neo Cal movement. Guess who does well in that movement? Those who make a living from it or those given title, like elder, who have never felt important before. (They tend to pick those types). The plebes in the pews often end up with very different experiences. Some are extremely sad. It’s almost as if they have to go through some deprogramming if they are to have faith.
    When we add “determinism” to suffering the results are horrifying and fatalistic. Life itself produces suffering. It’s inevitable for everyone to differing degrees. Our mission as believers is to alleviate as much as possible.
    Calvin told his assistant to tell those begging him to come and pray over plague victims that he was too important to the church to take the risk. Ironically, determinism did not play into that decision. His protege, Castellio went. Later he was banished and ruined for defying Calvin in other ways, too. Determinism is cruel whether secular or religious.

    This is quite interesting. Do you have a link for this, Lydia?

  195. Ken F’s wife wrote:

    A toi : Francophone?

    No, but I get by. One has to, as much of Calvin’s work, in French and Latin, has yet to be translated to English, even after nearly five centuries. I transcribed directly from Gallica’s page images of Calvin’s Geneva Bible.

  196. Jerome wrote:

    much of Calvin’s work, in French and Latin, has yet to be translated to English, even after nearly five centuries

    Well somebody needs to do that. Perhaps he recanted.

  197. Ricco wrote:

    To say nothing of the fact that the leaders can easily blackball a woman that they don’t like.

    Considering the news out of Hollywood, I would also wonder if they were blackballing women who had turned them down.

  198. ishy wrote:

    My former (SBC) church partnered me with a wonderful woman from the Stephen Ministry.

    This is what my church uses. I’m glad to hear that it was a positive experience!

  199. @ Lea:
    I hadn’t thought of it that way, but that could make a certain amount of sense, in a sick way

    One thing I am really tired of in evangelical Christianity is the idea that we are going to start a new denomination, and this time we are going to Get It Right. Everything gets super spiritualized because we are going to do church right and live in authentic, intentional relationships, etc. the major problem with this is there is a major incentive to keep lying that the emperor is fully clothed. Who is going to say the emperor is naked in that environment and destroy the illusion everyone has so carefully built. Makes me want to join a very old mainline church. Maybe there tradition will protect the congregation from leadership constantly chasing the Next Big Thing.

  200. Sòpwith wrote:

    Unlike (for example) resupply efforts from SpaceX and Orbital ATK to the International Space Station, there are apparently no ships coming from distant shores now to successfully ‘resupply’ The Wartburg Watch blog.
    Yet now empty on solutions, broad on criticism & complaints…

    Or if ships now and then do come in from distant shores are they turned away by TWW?

  201. Ricco wrote:

    One thing I am really tired of in evangelical Christianity is the idea that we are going to start a new denomination, and this time we are going to Get It Right.

    i.e. “This Time WE WILL ACHIEVE TRUE COMMUNISM!!!!!”

    Everything gets super spiritualized because we are going to do church right and live in authentic, intentional relationships, etc. the major problem with this is there is a major incentive to keep lying that the emperor is fully clothed.

    Like the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, the World’s Mightiest Nuclear Power, Most Prosperous Nation In the World, and Most Democratic Democracy That Has Ever Existed And Ever Will Exist?

  202. ishy wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    Between the Strasbourg & Geneva outbreaks, Calvin’s idea of his own Personal Importance to the Cause may have grown. Like the pattern of a Celebrity coming to believe his own PR hype.

    That was my first thought as well. Just because he seemed one way early on doesn’t mean that stuck.

    My type example of someone who came to believe all their own PR hype is Rush Limbaugh. When he started out with his “Conservatism as Theater”, he had a sense of humor — a somewhat crude one, but it was there. Remember “I Got Flushed By Rush”?

    Fast forward 15-20 years and listen to Rush Again. No sense of humor. Nothing except the total unsmiling concentration on The Cause of a True Believer.

    Other examples are those two con men, Elron Hubbard and Anton LaVey, who listened to their own hype for their con games to where they became True Believers in their own constructs.

  203. Jerome wrote:

    Ken F’s wife wrote:
    A toi : Francophone?

    No, but I get by. One has to, as much of Calvin’s work, in French and Latin, has yet to be translated to English

    I wonder if that’s a factor in today’s English-speaking Truly Reformed.
    Like Joseph Smith translating/interpreting Egyptian hieroglyphics.

  204. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    I had never thought of the analogy with Communism. This is a great point. 150-200 million people dead in the 20th century means you don’t get to try again. I’m sorry, you are done.

    When are we going to learn that controlling religious systems only leave brokenness and death in their wake?

  205. Ricco wrote:

    Maybe there tradition will protect the congregation from leadership constantly chasing the Next Big Thing.

    Not likely, read “Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds”, it gives a good history of fads and our herd mentality displayed in falling for them.

  206. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    I wonder if that’s a factor in today’s English-speaking Truly Reformed.

    This sums it up the situation nicely:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=sGHKcZI3XAMC&pg=PA2

    “To anyone lacking Latin or Renaissance French, much of the writings of John Calvin must remain inaccessible. While his major works—the Institutes of the Christian Religion being the prime example—are available in English in both book and electronic form, many of his characteristic expressions—his sermons, letters, tracts, polemics, writings on liturgy and church regulations—are not.”

  207. drstevej wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    What’s your opinion of Rush’s brother, David? He has written a number of Christian books.

    Don’t know anything about him.

  208. Thersites wrote:

    Not likely, read “Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds”, it gives a good history of fads and our herd mentality displayed in falling for them.

    I second that recommend.
    Wild, Crazy, and WRITTEN IN 1841!

  209. Darlene wrote:

    Yeah, right. Like owning your own part might mean, the husband smacked you for burning the dinner. Well then, don’t burn the dinner and he won’t smack you.

    The “own your part” is pushed in more than just Divorce Care in my experience. This was “encouraged” a lot at the megachurch I used to attend. One of the pastors even gave an example about a guy who was beaten regularly as a child by his father, and he was encouraged to own his part in the “conflict” with his father…who beat him…regularly.

  210. @ Lita:
    I saw that in my parents martial counseling, from the little I know. My parents are extremely private people, and now that my mom is going, I can’t very well ask her. My dad had an affair and then left our family a couple years later. After that they went to counseling. What blows my mind is that they both had “take-aways” from counseling that they could do to help their marriage. I think my mom’s take away should have been “don’t cheat on me or I’ll kick you in the balls.”

    I’ve been thinking about this, and it seems like this should be a two stage process. First, deal with the major issue that may be one sided. No matter how emotionally unavailable my mom was, cheating on her is wrong 100% of the time. That should have been dealt with in a one sided manner. After you deal with that, if you are dealing with adults (that child abuse thing you shared is INSANE), you could maybe talk about what both parties could do to help the marriage be helpful going forward. Talking about how each party should own the problem when only one committed an egregious act of infidelity is sin leveling at its worst, in my opinion.

  211. That reading list is really scary. Reading through some of the books on that list—I was horrified at how clueless they were towards the topic of abuse.

    If anyone is looking for more specific info on why those books have issues—here’s two detailed reviews:

    The Exemplary Husband by Stuart Scott

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R1OXXWE2K3XIBU/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=1885904339

    The Excellent Wife by Martha Peace

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R3RZVOY7C18PBM/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B008PHZEQA

  212. drstevej wrote:

    @ Lydia:

    I got to know Van Til a bit when I was at Westminster. He would eat lunch regularly with students. He was always gracious to me and had that reputation among those who knew him well.

    drstevej wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Check him out. He’s a solid believer. We were neighbors and I discipled him for 4 1/2 years.

    Gosh! You seem to know everybody in these exalted circles, Steve!

  213. ___

    “Collège de la Logos, Perhaps?”

    Jerome,

    hmmm…

    Theologian (1509–1564) John Calvin’s writings that are currently available through the extensive libraries of Logos Bible Software Systems:

    (i.e. theological works, biblical commentaries, tracts, treatises, sermons, and letters)

    https://www.logos.com/products/search?q=Works+of+John+Calvin&ssi=0&Author=8459%7cJohn+Calvin&redirecttoauthor=true

    Let us make every effort to enter extensively into His (God’s) wonderful rest…

    Happy Holidays!

    ATB

    Sòpy
    ___
    Heb 4:12

    🙂

    – –

  214. Ricco wrote:

    I’ve been thinking about this, and it seems like this should be a two stage process. First, deal with the major issue that may be one sided.

    I think of these things as triage. If you have an open, gaping wound, you aren’t going to talk about a scratch without treating that *first*. Bandaging a scratch does nothing to fix the great problem.

    It is absolutely NUTS to treat abuse or cheating as ‘lets talk about anything we can find wrong with you first before we get to this huge thing’.

  215. Lita wrote:

    The “own your part” is pushed in more than just Divorce Care in my experience. This was “encouraged” a lot at the megachurch I used to attend. One of the pastors even gave an example about a guy who was beaten regularly as a child by his father, and he was encouraged to own his part in the “conflict” with his father…who beat him…regularly.

    This reminds me of the comparative negligence standard which may be or is used in determining fault in car accidents. For example, a speeding motorist could rear-end my car after I suddenly changed lanes, but it could be determined that I bear some degree of fault because I shouldn’t have suddenly changed lanes. The comparative negligence standard applied to marriage situations can result, as @Darlene wrote, “Like owning your own part might mean, the husband smacked you for burning the dinner. Well then, don’t burn the dinner and he won’t smack you.”

  216. Many many moons ago a dear friend from church learned we had our son in counselling. She came to me and asked if she could share her problem and then I could tell her if I thought our counsellor could help. I told her I was uncomfortable but would listen. She shared she had caught her husband looking at porn. He had just finished a stint on the local AoG church board. I was shocked to say the least. She confided she wanted someone to take him down a peg and read him the riot act, then help him “get over it.” I said yes, by all means, get marriage counselling. She blew up. No way did she need marriage counselling, but he needed fixing. Then she drew herself up to her full about 5’2″ shared that she had been married before, widowed, then married this man and been married over 35 years and she was PROUD to say she ALWAYS SUBMITTED sexually to her husbands’ demands but that SHE had REMAINED VIRTUOUS and NEVER ONCE ENJOYED IT. (Caps for her yelling at me.) My response was unthought out but I quickly just said “And my mama told me if I didn’t “go barefoot” enough any man might stray. I cannot imagine a man married to a woman who is proud of never enjoying it even staying married to her. You are one lucky or blessed woman H hasn’t had an affair already.”

    She left angry and talked to our pastor. He also advised marriage counselling, with a professional counsellor. She came back later and said “Counselling didn’t help because the therapist kept telling us he could not fix H without also fixing me.” She insisted all the blame go on H and that meant she was totally innocent. No, no matter what evil the other partner does, or how guilty, that doesn’t mean the sinned against party is 100% innocent every time. They may be, or they may not be, and part of good therapy is digging to deep to learn if only one is to blame or if both parties need to change. So if the man has the affair, yes, he is 100% to blame for that BUT his wife may still be partly to blame for the failed marriage.

    Tough pill to swallow, but those that do are the ones that can find happiness again, even if they choose to kick the jerk to the curb.

  217. Lydia wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    There is nothing stupid About Wisdom despite idiots at church who want to control. Frankly one can be considered “uneducated” by our standards, yet wise. That usually comes as result of experience and responsibility from a very young age. To believe that verse means one should stay ignorant IS unwise.

    Indeed. A combination of experience and knowledge can lead to wisdom. (although sometimes not. It’s complicated).

    I also think of people who have a ‘gut’ feeling about someone or a situation. You may not be able to explain it, but it can still be wise to listen.

  218. Thanks for the supportive words and advice about my struggle. I should have said how my husband has been loving and probably over 80 percent of the time supportive when my bad memories of his sin cause me stress. We have a good relationship with room for improvement. I unfortunately have a tendency when stressed about unrelated things to “snowball ” mentally and go back to that hard time. That’s why I think it’s a PTSD tendency.

  219. linda wrote:

    If he rapes a kid, has he sinned?
    Yes.

    You’ve mentioned this example before on other threads about this topic the last few years I’ve been visiting this blog.

    I had clinical depression for many years and anxiety.

    Both conditions run in both sides of my family, plus, my mother’s parenting contributed to making me even more prone to both.

    I did not do some sin that caused me to have depression and anxiety.

    In some Christians, anxiety is 100% caused by biological factors. They have to take meds for it.

    Some things happen to people that hurt them, and it’s not their fault, nor do they sin against others out of their problems or pain as you put forward in your very specific example.

    Not everyone out there who has a psychological or emotional problem brought it on due to sin, or will sin because of it, but they will be told by ‘Biblical Counseling Quacks’ the exact opposite of that.

    That sort of victim blaming nonsense will leave the person stuck in that problem.

  220. Tina wrote:

    I also read that book, and while I don’t remember any passages from it, that was the feeling I also got from the book: if you think people are big and God is small, it’s all your fault and you have to repent.

    I also found his advice idiotic. This was back before I was in a faith crisis, by the way. Before I picked up his book and read it, I already knew that God is bigger than people.

    But knowing that fact intellectually did not help me deal with a fear of people.

    I also realized that even though God is bigger than people, that even the Bible sometimes had examples where God permitted people to hurt other people. Joseph in Genesis was held prisoner though he was innocent, for like 13 – 14 years.

    I sat there and thought, okay, God is bigger than people, but God still at times permits people to be cruel to other people so how does God being more powerful help me at all?

    Anyway. I eventually found my way out of all this when I did a ton of digging on my own.

    I read free material by psychiatrists on the internet and ordered some used, cheap books online that helped me (and most of the material was by Non-Christians, or by people who did not specify what their religious views were)

  221. Lydia wrote:

    Or a baby “chosen” to be born dead.

    That sounds like New Age-y stuff that actress Shirley MacClaine (spelling?) believes in.
    I remember reading an article where someone said she was having a conversation with MacClaine.

    She said their mutual friend Jane Doe had been killed in a car wreck, and SM’s reply to her was,
    “How strange. Why would Jane choose to die in that manner?”

    I sat there and thought, “I don’t think your pal Jane “chose” to die in a fiery car crash, lady….”

  222. linda wrote:

    No, no matter what evil the other partner does, or how guilty, that doesn’t mean the sinned against party is 100% innocent every time

    You are really stuck on making victims of sin to blame in some capacity.

    She was upset her hubby was looking at dirty pix (most women would be upset by that as well, even the ones who liked doing the horizontal dance with their spouse).

    Her husband looking at dirty pix was indeed wrong of him … and a sin.

    Whether or not she had her own issues in other areas in their relationship that she could’ve worked on to make the overall marriage better is another topic.

  223. @ Ricco:
    Ricco, where did Doug Wilson write about abortion and reprobates?

    I know a few DW fans who wouldn’t believe he said any such thing.

    Thanks.

  224. Refugee wrote:

    Ricco, where did Doug Wilson write about abortion and reprobates?

    I know a few DW fans who wouldn’t believe he said any such thing.

    Is this it: https://www.opc.org/OS/html/V6/2d.html

    The unbelievers are destroying themselves in a frenzy of child-murder and fruitless sodomy. Let them go. These are hard words. But Christians must learn to say them. Paul taught us that the children of God-haters are “foul” or “unclean” (1Cor. 7:14). We must come to the day when the Christian can truly rebuke those who are, “without natural affection” and say: “The ancient psalmist blessed the one who would take little ones of those who hate God and dash them against the rock (Ps. 137:9). We see by your pro-abortion position that you clearly agree with this kind of treatment. And we in the Church, in a way you cannot truly comprehend, are now prepared to say amen.”

  225. Refugee wrote:

    I cannot think of any adequate words. Just, wow. Such a lack of love, compassion, and godly sorrow.

    I personally believe the only reason DW stays afloat is because Piper keeps propping him up. I stumbled across this recently: http://matthewepierce.com/john-pipers-best-tweets/. I nearly cried in laughter when I found the “Peeper Piper peeked a park of pecking puppies” tongue twister. But seriously, Piper needs help. His and DW’s writings should get as much exposure as possible in order to shine the light on their darkness.

  226. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    Refugee wrote:

    I cannot think of any adequate words. Just, wow. Such a lack of love, compassion, and godly sorrow.

    I personally believe the only reason DW stays afloat is because Piper keeps propping him up. I stumbled across this recently: http://matthewepierce.com/john-pipers-best-tweets/. I nearly cried in laughter when I found the “Peeper Piper peeked a park of pecking puppies” tongue twister. But seriously, Piper needs help. His and DW’s writings should get as much exposure as possible in order to shine the light on their darkness.

    Honestly? I think DW stays afloat without Piper’s help. He appeals to all the worst in people, while making them believe that they are actually practicing all that’s best in the eyes of god.

    I have been in a couple congregations where DW’s books and writings were touted as wise and biblical, long before I ever became aware of Piper.

  227. Refugee wrote:

    Honestly? I think DW stays afloat without Piper’s help.

    You’re probably right. Still, Piper does a lot for keeping him in the limelight. Maybe it would be good for you to send DW’s abortion ideas to your friends who still like DW.

  228. Pingback: Biblical Counseling — Who Can Be A Biblical Counselor? | 1st Feline Battalion

  229. Daisy wrote:

    I also found his advice idiotic. This was back before I was in a faith crisis, by the way. Before I picked up his book and read it, I already knew that God is bigger than people.

    But knowing that fact intellectually did not help me deal with a fear of people.

    I also realized that even though God is bigger than people, that even the Bible sometimes had examples where God permitted people to hurt other people. Joseph in Genesis was held prisoner though he was innocent, for like 13 – 14 years.

    I sat there and thought, okay, God is bigger than people, but God still at times permits people to be cruel to other people so how does God being more powerful help me at all?

    Anyway. I eventually found my way out of all this when I did a ton of digging on my own.

    I read free material by psychiatrists on the internet and ordered some used, cheap books online that helped me (and most of the material was by Non-Christians, or by people who did not specify what their religious views were)

    Most of the BC types I’ve known have never been in a real-life fight that mattered. As a result, while some of them may know the Bible pretty well, they haven’t necessarily had the experience fleshing out the application of particular principles in their own lives, therefore (a) they have no idea what they don’t know, (b) they lack the capacity to point people in the right direction when they are facing real-life problems, and (c) they don’t have a clue how certain processes–particularly healing from trauma–truly work.

    Sometimes, people–even otherwise good, Christian people–need medications. I’ve known some post-partum moms who–in the throes of that temporal Hell of depression–weren’t able to think coherently, but, with meds, were able to see through the fog. Without the meds, no amount of BC would have been worthwhile, as they would not have been able to reason.

    I have also had friends who were anorexic and required hospitalization. And while anorexia may certainly have a sin origin, I can also tell you that the toll it takes on a person’s body–including brain function–can render a person irrational. Meds can help them get to the point where they can function rationally and thus be in a position to “come reason together” and address the issues. And in many of those cases, recovery is in months and years, not an instantaneous experience.

    The BC folks need to remember Callahan’s Law. As that great philosopher, “Dirty Harry” Callahan, once said, “A man’s gotta know his limitations.” And sometimes that means knowing when it’s time to bring in the professionals.

    I tend to look at BC as a tool in the toolbox. It’s not the only tool; it is a very important tool; but there are other tools that are often necessary.

    This is analogous to a role I have in my day job.

    At work, we have automated external defibrillators (AEDs) on every floor. I am certified in first aid and CPR, and am authorized to use the AED in the event we have an employee who goes into cardiac arrest.

    That DOES NOT make me an EMT, let alone a nurse or a physician. In other words, if you have a heart attack–or, worse, go into full cardiac arrest–I can provide immediate help that may save your life. But I cannot give you an IV; I cannot perform surgery; I cannot give you so much as a medical diagnosis.

    And so it is with BCs. If they are diligent about their gift of teaching–as counseling IS a form of teaching and IS NOT for everyone–they can be helpful in the vast majority of church-related issues that come up.

    But the caveat: they have to know when it’s time to call in the pros, because–as much as the BC leaders don’t want to admit it–there are times when pros and docs and even hospitals are necessary.

  230. @ linda:
    In another life, I used to shoot competitively (IDPA). In many of the scenarios–they were called “stages”–we had to shoot targets in “tactical priority”. In other words, while every offensive target was to be seen as a threat to be neutralized, you had to shoot the most imminent threat first.

    That is how you address that situation. While both the husband and wife have very serious issues, sometimes we must address the most imminent one first: in this case, the husband is using porn, and that is probably a longstanding issue.

    And while his wife says she does not enjoy marital relations, we must remember that this is not necessarily a sin. She may be asexual–I have a friend who is happily-married and with children who is asexual: she takes care of her husband, but otherwise doesn’t have a compelling desire to do it–or she may have sexual abuse trauma that has corrupted her ability to enjoy sex. Those aren’t necessarily sin problems on her end.

    By her account, she has diligently “put out” for him. If that is the case, then she is doing her job. While we hope that people enjoy marital sex, not everyone finds it enjoyable. The Bible merely commands husbands and wives to accommodate each other.

    I knew an old widow in a former church of mine who said, on a church bus, “Some women look at sex as a chore. Not me….I’ve had some SEX!!!” (Her husband probably died with a big grin on his face.)

    But not all husbands are as lucky as her husband, or even myself. Just sayin’. 😀

  231. okrapod wrote:

    This is a significant issue to be dealt with. A few days ago I went ballistic on TWW and could not say enough bad against biblical counseling. In my mind at the time, and within the context of dealing with actual mental illness, I had a fit against it. I still think that if they venture into the areas of actual illness they must be opposed.

    However, because this topic is being addressed here I have made some inquiries and I have modified my thinking somewhat. For one example, I uncovered a case in which this sort of counseling was extremely helpful to one person dealing with life issues, one of the faculty at CertainSchool who has been very vocal about it.

    What I am thinking at this point is that mid-level practitioners in the art of pastoral counseling may be very needed in today’s church. What?? Well, it turns out that in my denom the office of permanent deacon often turns out to be something on the level of social work and fills a needed gap in church functioning in some circumstances. In the case at CertainSchool the person had developed anxiety about a certain issue which was partly religious in content and actually underwent three sessions from a counselor at her church which apparently and for all appearances turned her situation around for the better with sustained emotional balance for some three years now.

    I am also thinking that DivorceCare which has been mentioned here is, in fact, a mid-level approach to life circumstance, as are the groups at SBC mega dealing with relatives who are addicts, AA and related groups for people dealing with alcoholics. a group aimed at helping the parents of kids who are in trouble including trouble with the law, and for that matter a group for parents of internationally adopted kids which has served well for RE and others. I have not been able to find any information about anger management sessions, so I have no opinion on that.

    In addition, the scriptural admonition for the older women to teach the younger women how to deal with related family issues is a directive for a certain type of mid-level counseling of a sort.

    Absolutely, but with the following caveats:

    (1) The church needs to stipulate that such counsel is not a substitute for professional help, and that–depending on the issues–professional therapy and even medical intervention may be necessary. Callahan’s Law is important.

    (2) All counselors must be trained in the ethics of reporting abuses. In other words, if physical or sexual abuses are mentioned, those need to be reported immediately to authorities. Counselors who fail to do this will themselves be removed and referred to authorities.

    (3) All counselors must first go through a rigorous process to vet their qualification to teach. That includes a depth and breadth understanding of Scripture; that also includes practical wisdom and demonstrated ability to handle a variety of personalities.

    In other words, all counselors must have spiritual mileage.

    This is not for a twenty-something who just got his or her 4-year degree, or who took 30 hours of training and can pass an exam.

  232. Daisy wrote:

    linda wrote:
    If he rapes a kid, has he sinned?
    Yes.
    You’ve mentioned this example before on other threads about this topic the last few years I’ve been visiting this blog.
    I had clinical depression for many years and anxiety.
    Both conditions run in both sides of my family, plus, my mother’s parenting contributed to making me even more prone to both.
    I did not do some sin that caused me to have depression and anxiety.
    In some Christians, anxiety is 100% caused by biological factors. They have to take meds for it.
    Some things happen to people that hurt them, and it’s not their fault, nor do they sin against others out of their problems or pain as you put forward in your very specific example.
    Not everyone out there who has a psychological or emotional problem brought it on due to sin, or will sin because of it, but they will be told by ‘Biblical Counseling Quacks’ the exact opposite of that.
    That sort of victim blaming nonsense will leave the person stuck in that problem.

    having been in biblical counseling, I haven’t been told that. I’m not quite sure where all these facts are coming from.

  233. Refugee wrote:

    I think DW stays afloat without Piper’s help. He appeals to all the worst in people, while making them believe that they are actually practicing all that’s best in the eyes of god.

    Isn’t there supposed to be a really Big Name Fallen Angel with the same M.O.?

  234. Max wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    HUG, you sure hung out with some bad actors in church – sorry you experienced that.

    A lot of my younger days are best described as C-3PO in the boarding scene that kicked off the original Star Wars back in ’77 — shuffling through Armageddon with all the tracers whipping around me but never actually getting hit.

  235. @ ishy:
    Calvin was also very adept at political talk. He knew exactly what to say to make himself look good, and pretty much invented CYA. Those who point to his ‘pretty talk’ as if it was proof of his sincerity and goodness should look a little deeper into his writings and actions.

  236. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Refugee wrote:
    I think DW stays afloat without Piper’s help. He appeals to all the worst in people, while making them believe that they are actually practicing all that’s best in the eyes of god.
    Isn’t there supposed to be a really Big Name Fallen Angel with the same M.O.?

    Here you have pretty much defined not only Calvinism and Protestantism, but the entire Institutional Church. Masquerading as the ‘Body of Christ’ Satan’s tool has been very effective overall.

  237. Another thing I’m not seeing in that list (and forgive me if someone’s already mentioned it in the comments) is any reading, discussion or training about professional ethics. Counsellors my the nature of their work deal with broken, vulnerable people day in, day out. How do they ensure their clients’ safety and stabilisation? How do they deal with sensitive issues like transference? How do they take care of their own mental health to make sure that all these stories of chaos and destruction and evil don’t impact on themselves?