A shadow of the Ingenuity Mars Helicopter is shown in a black-and-white image taken by the rotorcraft’s navigation camera.
“When I’m at the bottom looking up, the main question may not be ‘how do I get out of this hole?’ In reality, the main question might be ‘how do I get rid of the shovel that I used to dig it?” ― A View From the Front Porch: Encounters With Life and Jesus
When I saw the Christian counseling group removes Grace Community Church pastor from approved counselors list at The Christian Post, I started laughing out loud, scaring the pugs before I realized that the sort of counseling, as offered by Shannon, has wounded so many people, including my good friend, Julie Anne Smith. First, let me explain why I laughed.
ACBC is a counseling group I have read about and written about at length. It is an organization that, in my opinion, thinks it trains average folks in the pew “to be counselors.” Here are some posts regarding this counseling group, which “certifies” anyone.
The length of this list shows my devotion to exposing the problems with this movement.
- Part 1: The Biblical Counseling Movement and Timberlake Baptist Church and Counseling Center
- What is the Difference Between Nouthetic and Biblical Counseling? Just the Spelling.
- Biblical Counseling Training: Inadequate Education, Problematic Resources and Questionably Educated Leaders
- Heath Lambert Channels Martin Luther (As If) and Writes the 95 Theses of Biblical Counseling
- Heath Lambert’s 95 Theses of Biblical Counseling Reminds Me of Bob’s Advice in Stranger Things 2: It’s All Easy Peasy.
- John Piper and Heath Lambert of the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors Views of the Mind Demonstrate Why We Have a Problem With the Biblical Counseling Movement
- Biblical Counseling: Anyone Can Do It, Sin Is the Focus, Confidentiality Is Not Guaranteed and Women Should Beware
- Another Reason to Avoid Biblical Counseling: Confidentiality Is Not Guaranteed When Sin™ Is Involved
- Julie’s Story, Part 1: Of Domestic Abuse, Association of Certified Biblical Counselors, and Cross Walk Church, Appleton, WI
- Julie’s Story Part 2: Shame on ACBC and Cross Walk Pastors. They Failed Julie and Then Blamed Her For Not Reporting Child Abuse Sooner
- Association of Certified Biblical Counselors and Southern Baptist Theological Seminary: People With Delusions May Be Faking It and Christians With Schizophrenia Are Probably Not Christians!
Let me summarize some of my findings, which you can read above.
- It is sin-focused.In other words, efforts might be made to constantly blame sin for causing one’s problems. In other words, it’s your fault.
- There is no guarantee of confidentiality, which means they might tattle about your sin to your pator.
- The training is seriously inadequate, in my opinion. This means the counselor may not know what they are doing.
- If a new counselor makes a mistake due to inadequate training, the leaders may “disavow any knowledge of their actions.”
- People who have delusions may be faking it according to some of their material.
- A person may not be a Christian if they are diagnosed with Schizophrenia.
- The beliefs of this supposedly new and improved group appear to be similar to those of nouthetic counseling. (Cue dark and eery music.)
- Women better beware of their “place” since there appears to be a solid patriarchal bent.
- Counselors are not licensed. ACBC claims they are certified, but it is certification from within this organization- in other words, fake.(Dee hides out with the pugs under the kitchen table.)
Due to my reading, I do not recommend that anyone should seek the counsel of an approved ACBC counselor. Instead, I suggest that one seeks those who have an MSW, MS, or PhD in psychology or an MD who is boarded in psychiatry. I have sought help from some of those I mentioned.
I believe much of the training offered and accepted through ACBC is worth very little and could possibly dangerous to the counselee
Why I laughed?
Since I have a low opinion of ACBC, I thought, “Shannon sure hit the skids. How low can you go?” He lost an accreditation by this unrecognized “biblical” group? I’m sure the boys at GCC are laughing into their soup.
What’s the back story?
According to the Christian Post:
Grace Community Church (GCC) garnered controversy in February when a former elder named Hohn Cho shared concerns about GCC siding with abusers against their victims.
The letter, which was authored by Cho and written in September, explains that the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors recently removed Pastor Bill Shannon, who oversees Grace’s biblical counseling ministry, from their list of approved counselors and as an ACBC fellow.
Readers: beware of this phrase “Association of Certified Biblical Counselors (ACBC.)”
I cannot stress this enough. This group is not a recognized licensing group like those who confer MSWs, PhDs, etc. It is, in my opinion, deceptive to say they removed Shannon from their list of approved counselors. Remember, this is one of those Christian made-up groups conferring their rinky-dink title on some poor person who thinks they are now counselors after taking a few weekend courses and reading some suspect books. Read my posts above. If your counselor has this ACBC title, you are most likely not getting a professional counselor. Beware. They may be spilling your private talks to your pastor.
Grace Church is still an ACBC-approved training center, but they are investigating concerns.
The Christian Post states:
Although ACBC continues to recognize GCC as an approved training center for counseling, the counseling organization is also investigating complaints against the megachurch regarding its counseling practices.
One situation that is undoubtedly being investigated is The Roys Report’s EXCLUSIVE: John MacArthur Shamed, Excommunicated Mother for Refusing to Take Back Child Abuser. If you haven’t read this post, you must do so to understand what appears to be the depravity of the counseling at GCC. It appears to be so bad that ACBC is nervous and it takes a lot to get their attention.
From The Christian Post:
MacArthur shamed and excommunicated a mother in 2002 for filing for separation from her husband, David Gray, a former music and Bible teacher at GCC, who was later convicted of child molestation.
When the woman reported Gray’s abusive behavior to GCC, according to the report, GCC leaders allegedly never reported the allegations against Gray to authorities and even harassed the mother to change her mind about the separation.
From The Roys Report:
Eileen testified that she then met with GCC Pastor Bill Shannon and another GCC leader and told them about her husband’s abuse.
Eileen told The Roys Report that in this first meeting, Shannon did not offer to help. Instead, he accused Eileen of sinning by going to the law against a brother, Eileen said. Shannon added that the protective order violated 1 Corinthians 7:10, which instructs women not to separate from their husbands, Eileen testified.
The Roys Report also mentioned the lack of training for some of the counselors.
Shannon met privately with David, and then the church arranged for Eileen to stay with a church family until the protective order went into effect. Eileen testified in court that as a condition of receiving this help from GCC, the church required her and David to attend marriage counseling with Carey Hardy.
Hardy has an M.Div. from The Master’s Seminary but no professional counseling credentials.
Here are Hardy’s thoughts on this matter. This is a reason I do not recommend this type of counseling.
However, in an official court declaration in 2002 concerning Eileen’s legal separation from David Gray, Hardy stated: “I am of the opinion that Eileen simply doesn’t like David . . . and is using what she alleges to have happened with the children as leverage to put David out of their lives.”
Hardy accused Eileen in the declaration of having “a tendency to exaggerate” and exercising “faulty logic and irrational thinking.”
In contrast, Hardy said David Gray was “fairly laid back” and that after several monitored visits between David and his children, “our church concluded that monitors were not necessary.”
In another situation, TRR reported:
Another woman shared of how MacArthur and the church covered up a her father’s sexual abuse for decades. Her father, who was then a pastor at the church, confessed his abuse to MacArthur. Yet, her father continued to work at GCC for three more years following his confession to MacArthur. MacArthur later encouraged the woman to forgive her father and drop her “obsession” to hold her father accountable.
Former elder Hohn Cho reported GCC to ACBC.
The Roys Report wrote: Grace Community Church Pastor Removed as Approved Biblical Counselor. I quibble a bit with the title “Approved Biblical Counselor.” ACBC “approved” is meaningless and is not recognized outside of certain evangelical circles.
Cho has previously shared concerns about GCC and its counseling practices. Last February, Cho confirmed with Christianity Today reporting by TRR that GCC and MacArthur side with abusers against their victims. And he accused the influential California megachurch of “awful patterns” of endangering victims.
Cho reportedly discovered multiple cases of GCC’s counseling women to return to their abusers.
GCC doesn’t give two hoots what anyone thinks about what they did in their counseling program!
Here is a link to A Statement from Our Elders
The following is a statement from the Grace Church elders regarding recent headlines about past counseling cases:
Grace Church’s elders do not publicly discuss details arising from counseling and discipline cases—especially on social media. Nor do we litigate disputes about such matters in online forums. Grace Church deals with accusations personally and privately in accordance with biblical principles. We do not respond to attacks, lies, misrepresentations, and anonymous accusations. Our church’s history and congregation are the testimony. Myriads of Grace Church members who have sought counsel at our church will testify that the counsel they receive is biblical, charitable, supportive, and liberating.
TWW and Julie Anne Smith:
Julie Anne and I spoke this afternoon. She reminded me that she called Bill Shannon when her former pastor sued her. She was slowly waking up to problems in evangelical circles when it comes to counseling. She reminded me that Shannon told her he would only speak to her husband since the husband has the authority in the family. At that point, her now former husband was still listening to sermons by the “suing” pastor. Shannon’s counsel deeply hurt her, and she was sad, but not surprised to hear of others who were wounded as well.
Some final thoughts:
- GCC knows this “approved ” list is a nothing burger. They will claim they have GCC-approved counselors, and the game goes on.
- I believe that those hurt by Shannon’s counseling are telling the truth. I think this counseling is not only awful but evil. Telling a woman to stay with the abuser of her kids? Sick! Will anyone repent, or is that a secret, too?
- I want to know who is running the show at GCC. I wonder if Phil Johnson knows?
- Is the congregation so enamored of MacArthur that they don’t recognize a pattern of sin in the leadership? Why aren’t some of the tithers standing up? Are they afraid they will not be considered “one of the elect?”
- Given the Statement from the Elders, one may assume that counseling at GCC is scraping the bottom of the barrel.
- Avoid any form of biblical counseling, be it ACBC or GCC. If one is determined to try it, first get some counseling from a licensed counselor.
- Remember that this form of counseling, ACBC or GCC, is not licensed. Always, for your safety, find a good, licensed counselor. Many of them are also Christian.
- If you need to discuss medications, you need to see a board certified psychiatrist who is the only one who can prescribe meds. There are lots of Christians who are also psychiatrists,
- If you have shizophrenia and follow Jesus, you are a Christian, no matter what they say.
- If you have delusions, please see a psychiatrist. You are not making those up.
- In my opinion, I would never, ever get counseling from GCC or ACBC counselors.
1st?
MacArthur and “Grace to you”? No thanks. I suspect there is very little real Grace involved.
This matches my experience in my former church. I can think of five close friends/couples who sought biblical counseling and were damaged beyond measure by the time the counselors and elders were done with them.
Note that the elders got involved in every single case – passing judgement and laying blame – and their opinions were considered sacrosanct.
The playbook is like this: 1) separate the husband and wife and “counsel” them. 2) determine who is to blame (in sin). 3) exert pressure on the sinning party to change. 4) exert pressure on the aggrieved party to endure. 5) make a judgement call and decree a solution for the marriage.
The end result: either a spouse is forced to remain in an abusive relationship (and hope that their Christ-like behavior will win the heart of the abusive spouse), or divorce is allowed on “biblical grounds” and the offending spouse is disfellowshipped. Though, in one case the serial infidelity of the husband was simply overlooked because he appeared to be very repentant and he’s very popular in the church. (She divorced him anyway – good for her)
I know my sample size is very small but I find it very telling that in all of these cases, no one is actually helped because the counselors and elders are blinded by pride and arrogance, and they simply don’t know what they’re doing.
What I find ironic is that JMac is a Calvinist and as such believes and teaches that God, before the foundation of the world, ordained all things. So all the sin that people get counseling for was ordained for them to commit. I wonder how a counselor deals with that. :-/.
grace-this and grace-that is not real Grace at all … talking about grace is not delivering Grace to the hearer … Jesus is not in the mix at all in many “grace” churches
There’s been an awful outbreak of that in New Calvinist churches. NeoCal leaders would never be accused of humility and meekness, which open the eyes to see the truth of a matter.
John Piper, Calvinist of Calvinists, advises:’
“If it’s not requiring her to sin, but simply hurting her, then I think she endures verbal abuse for a season, she endures perhaps being smacked one night, and then she seeks help from the church.”
If you are smacked, don’t call the church … call 911!
In my humble, but accurate, opinion … the American church has endured Piper, MacArthur, and their band of new reformers long enough; this crazy season needs to end! It’s madness!
Yvonne,
John MacArthur vs. ACBC?
Ironic, isn’t it – one set of abusive know-it-alls vs. another.
To quote Shakespeare: A plague on both their houses!
The sooner either or both stop operating their abusive grift, the better for the deceived pew-sitters.
The word “Grace” in the official name of a church/ministry should be approached in the same way as “People’s Democratic” in the name of a Third World country.
“The more adjectives about Democracy in a country’s official name, the nastier a Dictatorship it is.”
— TV Tropes, “People’s Republic of Tyranny”
THE PIOUS PIPER HATH SPOKEN!
“TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!”, remember.
GAWD Hath Them on Speed-Dial 24/7/365, compared to You Who Were Born In Sin.
(Never underestimate the Arrogance of God’s Special Pets, especially if they are in Positions of POWER.)
It’s code for “This is a Calvinist church” … you will get grace-this and grace-that, but seldom Grace.
Grace Community Church’s “counseling” has been problematic for *decades.* The Nally family sued GCC in the 1980s (in fact, I heard about this case while in law school) and the courts basically ruled that GCC could not be held accountable for the death of Ken Nally. The result of this case, in California, which is at the cutting edge of tort law, allowed, IMHO, the “biblical counseling movement” to run wild without any supervision whatsoever.
And here we are.
I second all these things. I would note that at least here in Arizona, there are licensed psychiatric nurse practitioners (RNs with additional training), who are able to prescribe medications. My (RIP) mother and I both saw/see (different) nurse practitioners. Ours were/are private pay, because finding a psychiatrist who would take our insurances would have been a full time job.
These “biblical counselors” absolutely *cannot* handle serious mental illness. They don’t have the training, everything is sin to them. I have thought about how they would have approached my mother who, when she was not on medication, was pretty much on another planet from the rest of us. They’d try to talk about the sins she’s committed with her, but if she’s not even in the same time zone, how is that going to make any sense to her?
I could see these “biblical counselors” driving already depressed people into despair. Don’t listen to them. You are loved by God. These “counselors” are the definition of “wallowing in sin.”
I’m perplexed.
You’d think that they would have been called on the carpet for practicing medicine without a license by now, or something close to that, since in Cali, don’t all mental health counselors have to go through a licensing process (especially when money changes hands)?
Maybe it’s because they’re scared to go after ‘faith’ based counseling?
Rapid Roy,
Perhaps I’m stating the obvious, but it sounds like this church was using “biblical counseling” as a means of coercive control. The idea that some group of elders (presumably all men, and with little to no mental health training) have the right to manage other competent adults’ intimate relationships for them would be laughable if it weren’t so creepy.
And of course that paternalistic, authoritarian approach is the opposite of what licensed counselors or therapists are trained to do. Because, you know, if you actually want someone to heal and grow, you can’t compel them to do so. The most you can do is guide them in finding their own way. But, I suppose if you are convinced you know the “biblical” answer for everything, you don’t see the need for such relativist, secular, godless psychology.
From OP:
Instead, I suggest that one seeks those who have an MSW, MS, or PhD in psychology or an MD who is boarded in psychiatry.
Herein is some of the problems..
I first hand experienced that Los Angles Bible College, LABC, which became “The Masters University”, (John Mac’s school)does not believe in those degrees when involving any mental health.. it is all “secular humanist” and not “Biblical”
For that matter, Jonny Mac is a “young earther”, so he does not really believe in modern science either.. and his comments about COVID demonstrate that to me…
From Dee’s list of findings:
” Women better beware of their “place” since there appears to be a solid patriarchal bent.”
ACBC????? Oh, please!!!!!!
In the world of Johnny Mac, the Pied Piper, and the rest of their ilk, a woman who is being abused, or anyone who is aware of the abuse, might as well call PETA. To these yahoos, females are not part of the homo sapien species. We are simply the first animal species God gave man dominion over……. we just happen to be the one species that is absolutely necessary for the continuation of their own species.
John MacArthur is 84 years old … he’s done, but he just hasn’t quit yet. When he really quits, Grace Community Church, its Biblical counseling abuses, and all other assorted aberrations there will fade into obscurity. It is a personality cult … GCC = John MacArthur … when MacArthur is gone, GCC will be gone.
Max,
Yup
Dee, I almost always agree with you and I appreciate the site. Good job again…..
What I personally believe gets lost in the debate is that seeking accountability and counsel from your church (in my mind) means you are putting faith in the work of the Spirit. So I would personally go to my church first, to get help before any issue got worse.
I do agree with everything you say about professional help and the current mental health epidemic our country may be facing. Churches are not equipped for that. We know so much more about mental health and trauma today then we did just 20 years ago. My faith is strong enough that I can listen to anyone.
Plus…. If a law was broken then call the authorities.
If a man hits his wife then I know what I would like to do…. But then I know deep down inside that is wrong on my part. It would still feel good! Nonetheless I would call the police AND report him to my elders and make sure they take appropriate action in the church. Again, involving the church would hopefully produce some Godly fruit.
I am just saying we need wisdom from above (oftentimes our local body) and all the tools at our disposal from the medical community, just like we do for cancer or any physical ailment.
Not all churches or Calvinists botch this stuff up as badly as what we read in these accounts, but I am thankful that you are covering these stories.
Yes, it’s protected by the 1st Amendment.
I don’t see a Brigham Young or David Miscavige waiting in the wings to grab the reins at Johnny Mac’s death.
When Driscoll was gone, Mars Hill folded … Willow Creek declined post-Hybels … when MacDonald fell, Harvest Chapel ain’t so mega anymore … etc. etc.
Max,
Piper?
Wilson?
PTL and the Bakers?
Olsteen?
Charles Stanley?
The Stanley son?
Copeland?
Hagee?
Franklin Graham?
Ted Haggard?
Chuck Swindol?
Rick Warren?
Jimmy Swaggart?
Pat Robertson?
Benny Hinn?
Creflo Dollar?
Is there a common thread here?
People want to belong. They want to belong to something bigger than themselves. Jesus was offered all that and more but he left the Wilderness without signing the deal, without selling his soul.
Instead, Jesus called and assembled his rag-tag group of a dozen guys, dug in with relationships, then founded His church.
Jesus is bigger than us but He doesn’t come on the scene like a televangelist. Friendship with God never looks like a megachurch. It looks like Jesus and His disciples.
Codes or formulas (do this to get that) and categories (demographics of good looks flush with cash beautiful people) are not God’s Kingdom.
Love God all in, love your neighbor as yourself… these comprise God and His people.
Love God with all heart, soul, mind, and strength, is the Foundation. No middleman. No megaman.
Max,
Hi Max, My above comment was not directed at you personally. I was just thinking out loud after your comment.
There seem to be a lot of these situations (churches) built on a type, a personality, that gathers a group of followers until they depart. Then the whole thing falls apart.
Is that what church is? A Pied Piper scenario? Sure looks like it.
Add to the list: Paul & Jan Crouch, Oral Roberts, etc.
OTOH, the Gospels were identified first by the second century Gallic Bishop Irenaeus. Irenaeus identified four Evangelists: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, as the four pillars of the Church, the four authors of the true Gospels.
That was always the trump card: first they twist scripture to support their position, then they tell you what to do because it’s “Biblical”
You summed up my former church quite well.
Church leadership in the NT, with the founding of the Church, the Body of Christ:
“Brothers and sisters: We were gentle among you, as a mother cares for her children. With such affection for you, we were determined to share with you not only the gospel of God, but our very selves as well, so dearly beloved had you become to us.
“You recall, brothers and sisters, our toil and drudgery. Working night and day in order not to burden any of you, we proclaimed to you the gospel of God.
“And for this reason we too give thanks to God unceasingly, that, in receiving the word of God from hearing us, you received not a human word but, as it truly is, the word of God, which is now at work in you who believe.” From 1 Thessalonians 2
Note how these NT Church leaders go out of their way to NOT burden others in the Church.
More about Church leadership and teaching, from Jesus, God’s Son:
“Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, ‘The scribes and the Pharisees
have taken their seat on the chair of Moses reciting the Law. Therefore, do and observe what they repeat from God’s Word, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. They tie up heavy burdens hard to carry and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they will not lift a finger to move them.
“‘All their works are performed to be seen. They carry the law and dress in religious appearance. They love places of honor at banquets, seats of honor in religious assemblies, greetings in public, and titles like ‘Rabbi’ or ‘Teacher’ or ‘Pastor.’
“‘As for you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’ or by any religious church title. You have but one teacher, and you are all brothers. Call no one on earth your father; you have but one Father in heaven. Do not be called ‘Master’; you have but one master, the Christ. The greatest among you must be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled;
but whoever humbles himself will be exalted.'”
IMO, very few 21st century church leaders study the model of the 1st century church to see how they are supposed to be. You will find no authoritarian my-way-or-the-highway patriarchy in Scripture, no bad-boy potty-mouth preachers, no personality cults, no entertaining pulpit actors, no celebrity preachers, no beating up the pew with 9Marxism, etc. etc.
There’s gold in them thar hills!
A priest and a Levite pass by an assaulted man tossed to the side of the road. They follow their Code and continue on to get to their meeting on time. They also put the assaulted man in the Category of “Loser”. (If the plundered is a woman, the Category is the 4-letter word for an assaulted female: sl*t.)
But a Samaritan stops and cares for the assaulted man, taking him to an inn where the Samaritan pays for his care.
Codes and Categories do not render the Body of Christ, the Church. Codes and Categories produce an imitation of the Body of Christ. (Satan is an imitator and a fascinator.)
The ACBC JMac crowd (cult?) practices Codes and places people in Categories.
This is NOT Love God all in, and Love your neighbor as yourself.
Luther’s Reformation gave us back God’s Word. However, without one’s relationship WITH God all in, the Word is nil. It’s simply a Code.
Furthermore, putting people in categories is not loving our neighbor as ourself. Megachurch leaders use categories to build their dynasties. Demographics or categories are the key to establishing a church with 1) a campus, 2) state-of-the-art production and programming, 3) celebrity or name brand presence. Categories.
Yet they always scream Loud & Long about how THEY are a 1st Century New Testament Church (unlike all those Satanic Counterfeits, Heretics, and Apostates out there).
Just like the Wahabi & Taliban scream loud and long that THEY are the Only True Islam As It Was in the Days of The Prophet.
It’s called Year Zero Syndrome, and two of the RL type examples are the French Revolution and the Khmer Rouge.
Pure personality cults rarely survive the death/departure of their Founder.
(Even if the Founder doesn’t help that along like Heaven’s Gate/the Bo-Peepers.)
Few Joseph Smiths are succeeded by a Brigham Young who can reorganize/restructure it into a self-sustaining religious system.
And the Founding Apostle doesn’t even need to be dead for it to happen.
Remember Crystal Cathedral?
WITH BENEFITS (nudge nudge wink wink know hat I mean know what I mean).
Church as a business? These are businessmen running their businesses? (Goes over real swell with Jesus. NOT. He threw the money-changers OUT.)
So our religious leaders today are not really church leaders doing church?
We don’t know what money the disciples of the Early Church made from their church activities. Do we?
We know Peter and John said they had no money but they healed a man. Acts 3.6.
We know Paul supported himself as a tentmaker, Acts 18.
If Paul wrote the NT and preached and evangelized and was a missionary while supporting himself, what in the world is going on with church leadership today?
Nothing that has to do with the Gospel is for sale in the Word of God, which these church leaders preach from Sunday after Sunday. Obviously, they are highly selective about choosing their texts. Same with seminary profs and theobros selling books. Highly selective in choosing their texts. Don’t rock the Evangelical Industrial Complex Money Boat. Hop on, all Gospel Grifters, and keep everyone on the Gospel Grift afloat while silencing the truth.
Gospel Grifters don’t want the public to acknowledge their Gospel Grifting.
Church leaders go after their constituents’ money, their wives (looking at you ACBC counselors – how many of these clergy end up in clergy sex abuse violations?), their daughters (youth pastor criminals), and even their sons (Camp Kanakuk).
Gospel Grifters.
There are books by scholars worth purchasing: “Jesus and John Wayne” by Kristin DuMez, “The Making of Biblical Womanhood” by Beth Allison Barr, “Strongmen” by Ruth Ben-ghiat, and any books by Nina Burleigh. These women researcher writers are not Gospel Grifters. They all have jobs that do not take donations.
Or everything is DEMONS! DEMONS! DEMONS! like that sweater you bought at goodwill or that cobra-in-a-white-dress fantasy pic you bought at that FurCon art show.
Well, we DO know one Simon Magus was VERY interested in Monetizing their Brand.
Like that story about the Fred Phelps minion being interviewed:
When asked “What do you believe?”, she literally SPAT back “We Believe in the Doctrines of Grace!”.
Look what happened when some congressman tried to hold hearings on Televangelist corruption many years ago.
He’d have had an easier time trying to cancel Social Security.
Especially with today’s CHRISTIAN(TM) Supreme Court.
You’d have an easier time going up against Scientology at its peak.
“Peter said ‘Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk’.”
On the other hand, the 21st century church has silver and gold but can’t say rise up and walk. Somewhere over the last 2,000 years, the institutional church lost its focus. The Main Thing ain’t the main thing anymore; thus, the church forfeited the presence of the Lord and His power. Pulpit imposters move in on the silver and gold and the pew ain’t got a clue. Doing church without God has been an ugly thing to behold … I’ve witnessed the great apostasy in my lifetime.
In making a list, it’s jaw dropping how many of these guys are around.
Wikipedia says Spurgeon was the first. No idea who he was. But since then, there’s been a steady stream.
One after another rises up to namebrand public prominence and then crashes. Kinda like mafia bosses. With Gospel Grifters, their church is their crime family. All in it together.
John Gotti was culturally quite popular in NYC as he beat LE x 3 in his very public trials.
Trial 4 had tapes. In his backroom talk, Gotti put out the hits, and clearly disparaged any “losers” or any perceived disloyalty.
Every once in a while someone goes public and exposes the backroom talk going on with Christian leaders who clearly disparage their donor constituents as losers.
It’s a game.
The New Calvinists prefer to think of the essence of Christianity as doctrinal propositions ‘about’ grace, rather than a direct experience ‘of’ Grace, an encounter with the Living Christ. They just don’t get it.
For money and political power.
Christian pilgrim, if your church runs on money, that’s you. You made the trade.
Jesus was offered this trade in the Wilderness. He turned down founding His Church on money and political power.
Then Jesus gathered 12 men that He worked with for three years. One was a dud. The 11 plus latecomer-180-turnaround guy Paul founded Jesus’s Church.
The Body of Christ continues today without salaries for gifts of the Spirit, without tithes for brick and mortar, without violating boys and girls, without assaulting women, without authoritarian men.
God is none of these. God is love. (And note that love is neither sex nor grift nor anything not of God.)
Codes and categories.
A monument to the power of positive thinking … another example of a personality cult in which the ministry = the charismatic leader … when Schuller was gone, the Cathedral was sold to pay its creditors and emerge from bankruptcy.
A reminder of Biblical truth: “If this teaching or movement is merely human it will collapse of its own accord” (Acts 5:38-39)
Add him to The List.
Really, there should be a List of all these, mainly guys. Then line them all up and find the common DNA: what, in essence, makes a Gospel Grifter?
They surely don’t take a vow of poverty, chastity (don’t have to be celebate… how ’bout just stick to your wife?), and obedience. These values were lost in the Reformation. Gone.
celibate …
… bears no resemblance to the institutional church in America. Christ came to redeem individuals not institutions.
Completely off topic to this post but on topic for many posts at TWW:
Here is an insightful article about “confabulation”:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/9-11-fantasists-survivors-world-trade-center-b2164064.html
Note: I believe there is a lot of child abuse and violation of children, teens, and women in the name of God. I write about it (in a novel called “Legal Grounds” on Amazon). However, I also believe there are confabulists – adults NOT children – that make stuff up. The above article shares examples. Interesting.
The early church had a reputation for being a religion of slaves and women. At least in the YRR churches I’ve belonged to, those are certainly not the demographics being appealed to. It’s more the wealthy and socially advantaged than the downtrodden and oppressed.
“Whoever shuts their ears to the cry of the poor will also cry out and not be answered” (Proverbs 21:13)
I suppose that sort of YRR crowd feels that the downtrodden and oppressed were predestined to be that way, while they were predestined to be wealthy and socially advantaged. So why minister to the poor creatures and attempt to reach them for Christ. Their aberrant theology explains why the new reformers are not evangelistic or mission-minded … and we wonder why 90+% of Christendom have rejected the tenets of reformed theology for the last 500 years?! There’s no love in it.
“There’s nothing wrong with The System — The System Works Just Fine (for MEEEEEEEE)!”
Only this adds “GOD WILLS IT!” for Cosmic-level Justification.
In a world where Rank and Lineage were everything, the early church provided a Cosmic lineage for those without.
Reassuring and flattering the Rich and Powerful that THEY are GOD’s Special Pets and GOD gave them all their Money and Power.
Before Perfectly-Parsed Totally-REFORMED Theology, Calvinist One-Upmanship centered around God giving His Predestined Elect “material blessings” — money and power — as the PROOF of Election. The more filthy stinking rich you got (by whatever means) was PROOF that you were Truly His Elect.
Since Calvin’s God can send “evanescent grace”, a FALSE assurance of Salvation/Election indistinguishable from the real thing until The Great White Throne, Calvinists have a strong motivation to Prove and Assure that THEY are among the Predestined Elect. It explains a LOT of their behavior and attitudes throughout history.
Not even when Schuller was gone.
As I understand it, Schuller was retired when his heirs ran the property into the ground.
The winning bid on the Crystal Cathedral Fire Sale came from the Roman Catholic Diocese of Orange, which was on the lookout for a Cathedral after they outgrew the old one and for a way to centralize their administrative offices scattered all over the county. So Crystal Cathedral is now a REAL cathedral, “Christ Cathedral” of the RCC.
It took a LOT of refurbishing after the sale; apparently Crystal Cathedral had skimped on maintenance during its decline. The HUGE pipe organ (one of the largest on the West Coast) was n such bad shape, it needed a near-complete rebuild that took around two years.
And when the sale went public, the CHRITSIANS(TM) went into full Sackcloth-and-Ashes mode; I remember some proclamation about “Godless CULT” and “The Gospel will no longer be preached in Crystal Cathedral”.
I liked the paraphrase from the Don Francisco story ballad:
“The big guy spoke.
Said ‘We’re broke,
But in the name of Jesus get up and walk!'”
B/G: Don Francisco was a big name in CCM in the early Eighties, best known for story ballads retelling various scenes from the NT.
“NO POPERY!”
My wife is a licensed LPC and based on my discussions with her, I would agree with your assessment of ACBC counselors. Very few are qualified to be handing out advice or counseling to anyone. That said many licensed counselors and social workers do a lot of damage as well. Just look at the gender affirming care that is being pushed on kids today. It is important to look closely into any therapist before seeking their services. Also, if you seek out counseling through a church, I would at least seek out services through an unaffiliated church.
Thank you Ava, every time I’m just about to give up, your comments reveal Jesus to me. <3
Ariel,
We’re all in this together. And we need each other. God bless.
“When I said, ‘My foot is slipping,’ your love, O LORD, supported me. When anxiety was great within me, your consolation brought joy to my soul.” From Psalm 94
Amen & Amen!!
“From Him the whole body [the church, in all its various parts], joined and knitted firmly together by what every joint supplies, when each part is working properly, causes the body to grow and mature, building itself up in [unselfish] love.” (Ephesians 4:16 AMP)
My writing partner’s description of Biblical Counseling(TM):
“Put the client’s head on your desk. Then take the biggest, heaviest Bible you can find and Beat Him Into Submission.”
Calvin’s God is a monster.
CMT,
My elder friend is suspicious of me because I’m trying to get him to do more “inferring”. I believe he thinks himself my inferior.
re: “Biblical Counseling”
IMO, the institutional church started going South when Christian psychology showed up. The best-seller section at Christian bookstores is filled self-help resources. Folks do everything they can to not read the Bible, nor pray as they ought.
But (in a radio preacher sound bite from 1970s Christianese AM radio), who are we to complain?
“We are only Creatures. HE IS THE CRE! A!! TOR!!!”
Yeah, a CREATOR who can only be glorified if nothing or nobody else is allowed to create.
And Rebellion is as the Sin of WITCHCRAFT.
That too easily leads to “BIBLICAL Counseling Uber Alles” and Scientology levels of anti-Psychology.
All that’s needed is to divide the SPIRITUAL from the Real and start chanting “SPIRITUAL GOOD! PHYSICAL BAAAAAAAAAAD!”