Fourth estate

Humility is hard. To admit that we misjudged a leader and were played isn’t fun. But humility is the path God calls His followers to take. And yes, Christian leaders can be such manipulators.

Thersites wrote:

I’ve detected the following pattern:
After wrongdoing is exposed the mantra is stop making “premature accusations”, “you don’t have all the facts”.
After guilt is proven it transitions to stop “beating a dead horse”.
Within a few months the perpetrator is on the comeback trail and critical comments display “a lack of forgiveness”.

Nailed it.

GMFS.

Slightly off-topic: the River Forth is pretty full this morning – just seen it from the railway bridge (I’m on the train into Edinburgh the noo). There’s been quite a bit of rain upstream overnight, evidently. Today’s train is one of the newer Class 170 diesel multiple units rather than the older Class 158’s, which means the wi-fi works, which means I can post on TWW. Hurrah. (The 170’s have more horsepower per car, but the 158’s are lighter. The net result is that the 158’s accelerate slightly better from standstill, but top out at 90mph, whereas the 170’s can do 100. IHTIH.)

Got it! It’s a class 60.

AnonInNC wrote:

I’ve debated posting a review on Yelp or Facebook since I know his loyal sycophants will immediately come to his defense and attack my character. But they’ve posted all 5-star reviews and so far there’s nothing to tip people off about what lurks behind the church’s shiny veneer. Wondering if I should bite the bullet and post a review, even though it’s been over eight months since I left the place.

I sincerely believe that some of the most outrageous lies you will ever read are reviews of churches. There’s almost never any truth in them, so many loyal followers simply are not in love with the truth. Don’t know what it is that inspires people to obfuscate and lie in the name of God, but one place I know such inspiration does not come from is God Himself.

JYJames wrote:

AnonInNC wrote:
how many people turn a blind eye to this “pastor”
Co-dependency of pulpit and pew. Codependency enables another person’s dysfunction.

From the Pew: “I want someone to admire, to adore, to think for me, to be my exalted leader, to be my god right here and now, right up there under the spotlight, on that elevated stage. Why? Because I am scared and insecure.”

From the pulpit: “I want someone to admire and adore me, to believe everything I say, to be my submissive follower, to look to me for the word of God right here and now, to give me a spotlight and an elevated stage. Why? Because I am scared and insecure.”

@ ishy:
Bill Cosby lives up in western Massachusetts on the Mohawk Trail in a town near my cousins called Shelburne Falls. There is a lovely place in that old town called ‘The Bridge of Flowers’ where there used to be a restaurant at one end called the Copper Angel. If you sat down on a bench by that restaurant, there was a plaque put there mentioning Cosby as a contributor to the town in memory of his son, Ennis. Ennis was a teacher who was killed (murdered) and it was said that Cosby changed after this happened. No excuses, of course. But that is the story. People are deeply affected by loss and grief and sometimes they act out in response in ways that are destructive. I always wondered if this was a part of Cosby’s problem. He was always well thought of in the community and surrounding areas up off of the Deerfield river.

?

Mr. Jesperson wrote:

Tom fooled Wurmbrand and created a “ministry” to support child-molesters like himself.

I am not a conspiracy theorist, but there have been ‘rings’ of this sort of thing discovered before. I wonder how common this quid pro quo really is?

I keep seeing new people come to JA’s site to discuss their husbands who have been accused/convicted/caught in the act. It is terrifying to think about how many might really be out there.

Deebs, have you heard any follow up on Saeed since he posted that bizarre rant about Franklin Graham on his Facebook page?

Then, when my husband and I attempted to join an Anglican church in the area, we were not allowed to join until we were reconciled to our former *leaders.* Since they would not admit to any wrongdoing, such reconciliation was impossible.

I have probably written it before, but at that same church in Raleigh, my wife and I were called in for “counseling” (stage 1 or 2 of discipline) when she confronted a friend of ours about the time he was spending with a woman not his wife. The ‘pastor’ of counseling (not R Mills, btw) admitted that his marriage had been saved, but then proceeded to work with us concerning undefined issues – they also had the remarkable ability to use tragic circumstances in our past as an excuse to bring us in. We walked away from the session feeling that we had been the ones in the wrong but we have not set foot in that church since.

Burwell wrote:

Then, when my husband and I attempted to join an Anglican church in the area, we were not allowed to join until we were reconciled to our former *leaders.* Since they would not admit to any wrongdoing, such reconciliation was impossible.

I have probably written it before, but at that same church in Raleigh, my wife and I were called in for “counseling” (stage 1 or 2 of discipline) when she confronted a friend of ours about the time he was spending with a woman not his wife. The ‘pastor’ of counseling (not R Mills, btw) admitted that his marriage had been saved, but then proceeded to work with us concerning undefined issues – they also had the remarkable ability to use tragic circumstances in our past as an excuse to bring us in. We walked away from the session feeling that we had been the ones in the wrong but we have not set foot in that church since.

this sounds like a rogue ‘Anglican’ Church …. is it known what was the central authority of this Church (diocese)

@ Christiane:
If this is a ‘rogue’ Church OR a ‘rogue’ Diocese, I would be very cautious about accepting any offered credentials. These types of organizations are popping up and are bogus. I think the example warrants some additional investigation into ‘who are these folks?’

The public does need to be self-protective in this strange age of groups that pop up and then offer to set up church ‘plants’ for money. I hope this diocese is not one of that ilk.

Why? Many people refuse to admit that the ministry leaders they admired, followed, gave money to, bought tapes from, read all their books, went to the conferences, etc. could be serious sinners. They cannot cope with the thought they made an error in judgment because “he was the most awesome leader.”

This is called “Sunk Cost Fallacy” and is the key to a successful swindle.

The idea is to get the mark/mugu involved deep in the con, both financially and (especially) emotionally. At which point he will not only stay in the con but defend the con man even when he KNOWS he’s being taken to the cleaners. Because anything else and he’d have to admit (even if only to himself) that he got conned.

“I go chop you dolla;
I make you money disappear;
Four-one-nine just a game —
You be the Mugu,
I be the Masta!”
— Nigerian pop song about a con man

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

River Forth

I just want to say that my brain read this as the river ‘fourth’ and started thinking about fireworks.

Law Prof wrote:

I sincerely believe that some of the most outrageous lies you will ever read are reviews of churches.

How do they compare against a wartime country’s news media the day before that country surrenders unconditionally?

@ Nick Bulbeck:
Nick, my 3-year old grandson would love to be sitting next to you on that ride – he’s train crazy!

To keep this comment on track with the subject at hand, there’s a train wreck coming to the American church and the pew ain’t got a clue.

Lea wrote:

would ask why on earth they would be bothered by what your wife did (if you know), because that’s just ridiculous obviously, but I’m guessing it was a control freak thing? Or a comp thing?

My guess, because of the comp issue, a wife should NEVER confront a man about anything. The only exception would possibly be your own husband — and that ONLY with the perfect tone and after lots of . . . I’ll stop here.

@ Christiane:
Have a feeling the residents of ,Shelburne Falls, might not be feeling quite as supportive of him these days.
From what I’ve read….Cosby has been living a double life since at least the 60s.

@ Law Prof:

Both the sheep and the shepherd can get it wrong at the same time.

All members of the body ( including, elder/pastor, deacons, congregation) have to exercise their gifts for a church to be healthy.

Pastor worship comes from adoring sheep. To accept such a construct does no one any good.It’s unhealthy to adore a man, it’s unhealthy to accept adoration.

Mae wrote:

.It’s unhealthy to adore a man, it’s unhealthy to accept adoration.

So true.

And in a culture that is all about such adoration, the people who don’t buy in probably either keep quiet or leave quietly. So what remains is self-selected.

@ Max:

So agree.

Unfortunately, too many parishioners are ignorant of, or refuse to exercise their responsibility, in being a part of the body of Christ.

Most parishioners are taught today to: tithe, be quiet, obey the elders, submit to authority.

We desperately need more parishioners to open their Bibles and study, for themselves, what the Lord requires of them. ( us ) If this were done reformation would come, and not the kind presently being served up!

Lea wrote:

Divorce Minister wrote:
Humility is hard. To admit that we misjudged a leader and were played isn’t fun.
But it is absolutely essential!
At some point, can we talk about Jerry’s comment ‘women abuse too’? It’s fascinating to me that in a discussion about a specific person, and a specific issue, this keeps coming up. Does that make it better? Sheesh.

No, it doesn’t make it better. But I think, in all sobriety (or is it seriousness?), that it is good to remember that women abuse too, not as a way to excuse abusive men, but to keep people as wise as serpents while they are remaining gentle as doves.

My ex s-i-l was a terrible person, for example.

There is a female cult leader who started a “christian” weight loss movement and now has entrapped a number of families in her cult. (Google “weigh down workshop cult”)–This one is specifically relevant to the topic of TWW because it involves spiritual abuse.

The former teacher who recently was in the news when she got divorced from the guy she lured when she was his sixth-grade teacher.

There are more, but those will do.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

This is called “Sunk Cost Fallacy” and is the key to a successful swindle

You mentioned this before, the first time I’d heard the term, and it explained a lot about why we stayed in our controlling church for more than a decade. Thank you.

(Still wishing we’d left a decade or more earlier.)

Max wrote:

Yet, we are also challenged to test the spirits to see if they be from God – to do that, we need to know the Word ourselves (not rely on a man’s interpretation of it) and pray for wisdom to sort out Truth from error.

You know what’s really sad? I was a bible study teacher before we got sucked into our former church. I was pretty familiar with the scriptures, had memorized whole swaths, read the bible daily, knew my way around Strong’s and Vines. Yet somehow that place got past my Berean defenses, made me start to question myself. I think the seeds had been planted earlier in a “Walk Thru the Bible” conference where I first heard the message that women were not to teach men, years earlier, and reinforced by later attitudes.

It’s not just the church, but society. What was that study that showed that men in a group that consists of 30% women perceive the women as “half” the group, or if a woman talks more than 30% of the time she is seen as dominating the conversation? (The statistics may be off, because I’m recounting from memory, but what I do remember clearly is that the percentages were well below 50%.)

I am not trying to trash men, just wondering if we are wired to think this way, or if it is culturally conditioned?

refugee wrote:

@ Lea:
At our former church, when a woman was called in (with her husband), it tended to be a stern admonition against being a busybody and gossip. Great way to diminish someone who is thoughtful, articulate, intelligent, and pointing out something that is amiss.

Ah good point. I didn’t think of ‘gossip’ as being the problem. Especially since she confronted him, personally. Which any of these ‘super biblical’ types will tell you is the thing to do.

refugee wrote:

in a group that consists of 30% women … if a woman talks more than 30% of the time she is seen as dominating the conversation

In most mixed Bible study groups I’ve been in over a long church experience, I have found that female believers contribute more depth to the discussion than the men in attendance. I’ve always felt that Southern Baptist women were more spiritual than most men, including the deacon body! My 3-year old grandson has memorized more Scripture than most adult churchmen – at dinner a few nights ago, he said “Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we trust in the name of the Lord our God … Amen … Let’s eat!”

Mae wrote:

We desperately need more parishioners to open their Bibles and study, for themselves, what the Lord requires of them. ( us ) If this were done reformation would come, and not the kind presently being served up!

Amen Mae! We need “transformed” theology (rather than reformed) in the pew if we are to experience a true reformation of God’s people engaged in the Great Commission.

Great post!

Rachel wrote:

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Yep. I’ve read about the Sunk Cost Fallacy. Common among college sophomores who realize they hate their major and the profession associated with the major is soul-killing or obsolete. Yet they paid good money or took out massive loans. So they’d better get that degree!

Didn’t something analogous happen to Calvin?

Max wrote:

especially with the New Calvinist movement sweeping across the landscape – its pastors are not beyond stealth and deception

Max, you may be correct in your quoted statement, but do you think that the movement has as much longevity as it does acceleration? Personally, I don’t. I think a rather large blowback is coming. It may not be in time to impact many of the current leaders but I think the second, or perhaps third, generation will be addressed.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Didn’t something analogous happen to Calvin?

On further thought, you may be on to something. I remember something to the effect that Calvin didn’t want to be a pastor/preacher, just wanted to live quietly and study. He was practically forced into it. I wonder if resentment or bitterness colored his teaching, and has been passed down to generations 500 years later?

@ Mr. Jesperson:
Truly evil how this organization cooperated.

Had heard of VOM, had no real interaction with them though, other then hearing their radio spots, and articles in magazines.

Like others, I was shocked in reading the depths of deceptions the organization had
layered to protect itself.

Yet, despite all the groups, organizations, churches that have been cited for theological abuse, sexual abuse, etc. it’s still a challenge not to be sucked in by the shiny veneer. I have to remind myself not to get too comfortable at my own church, not to put blinders on, not ignore any alarm bells.

These horrific events happen. . . because the people in the pew are more interested in following a MAN than in following Christ. They Happen because people lack discernment and COURAGE. Wake up church! The world is ahead of you and shaming you!

Burwell wrote:

do you think that the movement has as much longevity as it does acceleration?

I have been a Christian for 60+ years. I’ve watched several religious movements come and go, with most only lasting 5-10 years (that Holy Laughter thing was a strange one). However, I’ve never seen one so organized as the New Calvinist movement – it is aggressive and militant. If you just take the Southern Baptist slice of the new reformation, within 10 years the New Calvinists have come to control most SBC entities (seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house). Hundreds of YRR pastors have been released into SBC pulpits, primarily through its church planting program, while numerous traditional churches have been taken over as well by young lying prophets. It’s sure lasted longer than I thought it would and doesn’t appear to be decelerating yet. The bubble will eventually break, but the damage will be done – leaving thousands of Generation Xers and Millennials disillusioned. As evidenced by TWW comments, lots of Baby Boomers have also fallen victim – many Warburgers had enough sense to escape and tell their stories. I’m hoping for a genuine Kingdom of God movement next time around.

Lea wrote:

I did wonder about the ‘i went to his hotel room, took an unmarked pill and was shocked it was drugs’ comments.

Bill Cosby had serious star power from the 1960s onward. Many girls and women would have let their guard down around him.

He seems to have misled women about the pills, calling them anxiety medicine or something. They were apparently Quaaludes, dangerous enough that they are no longer manufactured legally in the US. He allegedly used Quaaludes as a date rape drug, to render people helpless or unconscious. (If he did lie about the nature of the pills, I would compare that to accepting a drink, not knowing it was spiked.)

To relate to this topic: a dazzling charismatic figure can fool some of the people some of the time.

Bridget wrote:

Ennis died 20 years ago. Accusations against Bill Cosby go back 50 years. I don’t think Ennis’ death was part of the problem.

I was told about Cosby by an insider at a casino in the Reno/Tahoe area in the late 1980s, so there’s 30 years back. Not exactly the same allegations of which he was recently tried, but very closely related. I wondered about them then, perhaps it was just slander, jealousy. But when these latest accusations came out it all seemed to make sense. Rumors are not always true, sometimes they’re pure fabrication, but they pretty much always warrant additional inquiry, and the more likely people in prominent positions try to silence them rather than getting them out in the open and dealing with them, the more likely I believe they are to be absolutely true.

Max wrote:

Burwell wrote:
do you think that the movement has as much longevity as it does acceleration?
I have been a Christian for 60+ years. I’ve watched several religious movements come and go, with most only lasting 5-10 years (that Holy Laughter thing was a strange one). However, I’ve never seen one so organized as the New Calvinist movement – it is aggressive and militant. If you just take the Southern Baptist slice of the new reformation, within 10 years the New Calvinists have come to control most SBC entities (seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house). Hundreds of YRR pastors have been released into SBC pulpits, primarily through its church planting program, while numerous traditional churches have been taken over as well by young lying prophets. It’s sure lasted longer than I thought it would and doesn’t appear to be decelerating yet. The bubble will eventually break, but the damage will be done – leaving thousands of Generation Xers and Millennials disillusioned. As evidenced by TWW comments, lots of Baby Boomers have also fallen victim – many Warburgers had enough sense to escape and tell their stories. I’m hoping for a genuine Kingdom of God movement next time around.

SBC is going to collapse. The Calvinists are just speeding up the result.
And the thing is the YRR don’t realize or care about the damage they are doing.

@ dee:
From the review [link] you posted:

“‘The Women’s Balcony’ takes on some extremely hot topics, and in doing so makes the point powerfully that true faith does not depend on a head-scarf. True faith is alive, coursing through human relationships, made manifest in how we treat one another. ‘The Women’s Balcony’ has its cake and eats it too. It is funny and profound.”

It is a very, very funny film, LOL, – the script is brilliant, as well as sharp and to the point. I’ve got to see it again, or order it for purchase.

The young rabbi surreptitiously taking over the neighborhood synagogue is exactly like what has been described as YRR strategy. But then what the women do about it – if only Christian American women would “get it” as these Israeli Jewish women do. Hilarious and grand.

I’ve mentioned this before, but I’ll mention it again. I have a friend, Mark Ebner, who is a freelance reporter. Back in the day he did an expose of Scientology’s Celebrity Centre when he faked being a celebrity. It was funny and revealing at the same time. (I’ll never forget when we picketed Big Blue in LA in the late 1990, the Sea Org was so freaked out about us being there that they hid in the buildings and Ebner started blasting his car speakers up and down L. Ron Hubbard Way. That was so much fun! But I digress…) Back in 2006, he had an explosive story–the story we now know as Bill Cosby’s multiple assaults. He could find NOBODY to publish it. He finally posted it on his website, and boy, did he catch a lot of flak and lost jobs as a result. (Because Cosby, unlike Scientology, had a generally good public reputation in those days…) The last few years have seen him proven right.

When Cosby’s publicity people said he was going to give seminars on how to avoid ending up in court, etc., I told Ebner on Facebook that I’d picket Cosby if he brought his show to Phoenix. And I would, too. That whole thing is just crazy.

K.D. wrote:

SBC is going to collapse. The Calvinists are just speeding up the result.

The Conservatives ran off the Liberals/Moderates … now the Calvinists are doing in the Conservatives. In the meantime, there isn’t much Gospel preaching going on in the denomination.

K.D. wrote:

And the thing is the YRR don’t realize or care about the damage they are doing.

SBC’s YRR have been convinced by New Calvinist leaders (Mohler et al.) that they have come into the world for such a time as this. They justify their stealth and deception for the good of the movement – to restore the gospel that the rest of us have lost. The young folks don’t know (or don’t care) that millions have been brought to Christ around the world by SBC’s whosoever will message of Truth. Arrogance always comes before a fall.

brian wrote:

most of those acts were filthy rags

yes, those acts ARE ‘filthy rags’

for some reason, some people feel that acts of kindness towards others are also ‘filthy rags’, but I think not

nope, we know what qualifies as ‘filthy rags’ and hurting others is at the top of the list

Max wrote:

wickedness in high places is more alarming

It’s a network, as in the true-story Netflix series, “The Keepers”.

@ Max:
A good comment from the WaPo article, linked:

wonderfulhue
6/22/2017 12:42 PM CDT
believing in god is a great thing….giving your money and power to an organization to represent you in your relationship with god is insanity….keep it between you and god….save the kids….the muslims, the catholics, the protestants…many in the ranks exposed as child molesters

@ Nick Bulbeck:
G’day Nick,
good efforts there to build up skill and strength

today I am going to take the dog to the vet:
this, for me, if comparable to attempting a climbing wall which is above my level:
just getting him into the SUV will be the first ‘problem’ goal;
then trying not to cry when he looks at me with THOSE EYES and whimpers when we pull into the Vet’s parking area (the dog knows);
but it’s the trip from the SUV to the door of the Vet’s waiting room that is always the most dramatic moment ….. every tree, every bush gets blessed on the way in which stalls for time (smart pup)
…….fortunately, leaving the Vet is easy, as my fur child is most cooperative at that point. Honestly, they need to give out ‘Valium for Dogs’ before asking us to bring a dog into the doctors’. Have a great day, Nick. I admire your energy and grit.

@ Christiane:

Thanks, Christiane – our comments passed like ships in the night there! Hope all goes well…

@ Nick Bulbeck: Excellent.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

We miss the point if we don’t realise that forgiveness should be a RESPONSE TO REPENTANCE and NOT A RESPONSE TO SIN [Instone-Brewer’s emphasis, citing Luke 17:3-4]…

Excellent point and so simple. Why does this get missed?

Lea wrote:

Why does this get missed?

we like to be ‘the Pharisee’ in the temple pointing at ‘that sinner over there’ and thanking God we are not ‘like that’ …..

in short:
pride (the sin that blinds us to our own mess)

Lea wrote:

Why does this get missed?

It gets missed because the mantra from pulpits and transgressors to those offended is “we are all sinners.” So we are expected, and taught, to forgive the “sinner/sin” without the repentance. Repentance being sorrow and change, not simply words.

Bridget wrote:

Lea wrote:
Why does this get missed?

It gets missed because the mantra from pulpits and transgressors to those offended is “we are all sinners.” So we are expected, and taught, to forgive the “sinner/sin” without the repentance. Repentance being sorrow and change, not simply words.

This is true, but why is it true?

Either the pulpits want to be forgiven without remorse themselves, or it is easier to make a good person forgive than to make a person who has done them wrong actually be sorry. It keeps the peace. For everyone but the one sinned against.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

order to forgive, it is necessary first to fully realise that I have the power and authority to forgive. In fact I’d go so far as to say that a victim cannot forgive, because “victim” implies powerlessness whereas forgiveness is an act of judgement that necessarily takes strength and power. I’m convinced this is why forgiveness is so necessary, and why those who forgive describe the experience using words like peace, and freedom.

I like this, and this is much like the attitude I learned about these things from my mother.

I think this is one of the reasons it is actually a huge problem to try to make someone forgive, because it takes away that very strength and power that might be so healing.

Lea wrote:

Either the pulpits want to be forgiven without remorse themselves, or it is easier to make a good person forgive than to make a person who has done them wrong actually be sorry. It keeps the peace. For everyone but the one sinned against.

Yes to both, not either or. And in the end, it doesn’t really keep the peace.

Bridget wrote:

And in the end, it doesn’t really keep the peace.

Maybe I should have said the illusion of peace.

Are people confusing judging others’ sins as the opposite of forgiveness?

Calvin on church discipline: “I consider that it would be perfidious cowardice in me, so long as I occupy my present position, not to contend keenly, even to the utmost, in behalf of a holy and lawful discipline. I have resolved that I should a hundred times rather leave this life-not to say this place-than suffer to be overthrown, that which I am confident is taken from the word of God.” {Bonnet,Letters 1:377. See also Calvin’s letter to Viret in Bonnet, Letters 2:424.}

He was not timid on this subject.

“I walked away from that incident with my eyes wide open and vowed never to assume that anyone, even celebrity gospel™ leaders, was exempt when it comes to serious sin. I decided that I have no reason to believe the story of an admired pastor over the new convert to the faith. In fact, I have no reason to believe the oft quoted Christian leader over a non-Christian. We have all sinned and fallen short and that means looking at situations with open hearts.”

This part of your article reminds me of a book a read along time ago called “Piercing the Darkness”. While (once again!), I might seem to be a little off topic, please hear me out. In the novel, a school teacher is falsely accused of child abuse. Immediately, parents begin to pull their children out of the Christian school he works at, which is completely understandable. However, the way the author portrays these parents is less than flattering ; not only does he portray these parents as foolish people who have lost their faith and are turning their backs on an authority figure, but that even discussing abuse together is an act of gossip (that is being controlled by demons). The entire book was a big lecture against single mothers, women in authority positions, and trumpeted male headship to boot! At the end of the novel, I felt as though the book’s entire message was a scare tactic against believing children and their single mothers (because they’re in league with DEMONS, and SINGLE MOTHERS ARE INCOMPETENT WITHOUT MALE GUIDANCE, leaving their children open to DEMONS) and that a Christian should never question a male CHRISTIAN authority figure, because otherwise they’re being faithless and enabling the devil’s work.

Needless to say, your article reminds me of how often Christian leaders (and “Servant-leaders”) often turn the focus away from their behavior by scaring those “under” them into believing that questioning another human being is DIRECTLY THE WORK OF THE DEVIL AND WILL LEAD US ALL INTO SIN AND DAMNATION BECAUSE YOU DARED TO QUESTION THE ANOINTED!!!!!

*whew* Sorry, needed to get that off my chest.

JYJames wrote:

Forgiveness means walk away and leave it up to God (get out of the way), even praying for one’s enemies. How God deals with them is His business, and He is amazing in His dealings.

I like this response.
In my Church, we are ‘all’ sinners and we know it. In some Churches, I guess people are better than that, but for us, we know the truth about what we have done ….. we have the crucifix before us to remind us.

“This thought should keep us humble:
We are sinners, but we do not know how great.
He alone knows Who died for our sins.”
(John Henry Newman)

Something tells me Newman might have been looking at a crucifix when he had this thought (?)

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

I’ve been kinda MIA for the past few days. Not ignoring TWW – just busy, busy, busy …… and tired. Wild blackberry jelly; peach jam and some peaches frozen for pies and some peaches to eat; squash pickles; picked jalapeños; a 5 gal buck of green beans in the kitchen now waiting to be canned; beets soaking in another bucket in the carport waiting to be pickled; green bell pepper ready to pick…….. Canners and jars and pots and bowls and measuring cups and spoons to wash ……
Oh my….. Lots of soap bubble submission going on in my house lately!!!

Dear God, I enjoyed reading that!
Nancy Two, thank you for sharing it. Wonderful comment.

Sam wrote:

The entire book was a big lecture against single mothers, women in authority positions, and trumpeted male headship to boot! At the end of the novel, I felt as though the book’s entire message was a scare tactic against believing children

Wow! It has been so long since I read this novel I didn’t remember any of this, although it’s vaguely coming back. I feel like I should reread for a ‘male headship’ theme. Hm.

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

Forgiveness does not demand forgetting, either. If someone is visiting me, and they steal things out of my house while they are here …… I can forgive them. But I am not required to allow them be a guest in my home again.

Great illustration of what forgiveness is and what it is not. Forgiveness simply means that I am not going to respond in kind when wronged by another. It does not mean that I am under any obligation to hold hands with and sing kumbaya with the perp who did me wrong.

It’s great to ponder all the ethereals we can glean from the Bible, that’s fine and that’s dandy, but I think forgiveness has a more practical and a very real benefit in the here and now. The cycle of violence ends with me. It loses its energy and cannot ripple outward feeding on new and even more malevolent energy.

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

@ Friend:
@ Christiane:
A couple of weeks ago we made strawberry jam and plum jelly …… Tomatoes are coming – I’ve already fried a few green ones!

Heaven! Fried green tomatoes! 🙂 More joy!

Muff Potter wrote:

The cycle of violence ends with me. It loses its energy and cannot ripple outward feeding on new and even more malevolent energy.

Exactly.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

forgiveness should be a RESPONSE TO REPENTANCE and NOT A RESPONSE TO SIN

I’d have an easier life if everyone who wronged me repented and asked my forgiveness. Unfortunately the worst offenders are mentally ill, dead, or unaware of the damage I carry inside. Some did something that hurt me but either helped or did not harm others. One person harmed me while his wife was dying, and I will not ever bring my pain to his attention.

Since penitents are not knocking at my door, and I cannot or will not seek them out, I try to work out reconciliation inside my own head. It’s long, difficult effort. One thing that helps is discreetly talking to others who know/knew the villain, so I can give and receive insights. Prayer, worship, tincture of time, and slow growth of wisdom also help. Protecting others from similar harm, or comforting them during/after similar harm, is tremendously helpful.

As for my own sins, “Let not the sun go down on your anger” is one of the most practical verses in the Bible, and a rather important rule in our family. We all apologize quickly, but some of us are slower than others to forgive. So we try to forgive that too.

Step 9 in AA and Al-Anon is “Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.” I knew an AA member who yearned to ask his adult children’s forgiveness, but the children refused to see him, and he knew that his presence would destabilize their fragile recovery. The best he could do was to live a sober life and leave them alone.

Friend wrote:

Since penitents are not knocking at my door, and I cannot or will not seek them out, I try to work out reconciliation inside my own head. It’s long, difficult effort. One thing that helps is discreetly talking to others who know/knew the villain, so I can give and receive insights. Prayer, worship, tincture of time, and slow growth of wisdom also help. Protecting others from similar harm, or comforting them during/after similar harm, is tremendously helpful.

I understand exactly where you’re coming from. In my own personal experience, most of the Christians I’ve been around have been quick to criticize me for not forgiving others, while I am still being hurt by them on a constant basis. I find in most circles, it’s easier to blame the wronged party (causing further hate and anger to build inside) then to stand together as believers against the actions of the other party. Most of peace has come from distance and also from discovering that yes, contrary to what others might say, I was indeed hurt by the party in question and that what they did to me was uncalled for. The rest of the healing comes from God tapping me on the shoulder and telling me to go out and live my life – breaking out of the prison the person put me in in the first place.

JYJames

SEE Clarification below:

wrote:

“Time” online had an article: 5 Ways to Deal With a Psychopath by Eric Barker, dated Oct 18, 2016. About psychopaths, research recommends walk away, [as a Christian, I would add, without vengeance, and wishing the psychopath complete repentance, THE OFFENDER MAKING compensation for THEIR wrongdoings, and recovery; however, how God deals with them, then is God’s best, always. God offers nothing less than the best.]

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

The kinds of wrong prevalent in the Christian trends dissected at TWW are committed by those in positions of power, advantage and prestige, against those who do not have these things. And what we often observe is that these people often believe their positions of power justify their actions; even when they do “repent”, they do so in the belief that they can use this to smooth over their “mistakes” and keep their power and prestige as if nothing had happened. As in, “God’s forgiven me, and so should you”. Moreover, their enablers persist in maintaining this delusion: “God’s forgiven him, and so should you”.

Possibly when those who abuse their position of power publicly repent, an indication of real repentance is they no longer seek the position of power.

Thersites wrote:

Possibly when those who abuse their position of power publicly repent, an indication of real repentance is they no longer seek the position of power.

I think you’re right.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

Thersites wrote:
Possibly when those who abuse their position of power publicly repent, an indication of real repentance is they no longer seek the position of power.
I think you’re right.

Great insight.

I am unclear as to whether the Anglican church Dee tried to join refused her membership because she was unable to reconcile with her previous pastor or if the previous pastor refused to “release” her without reconciliation and she at that time felt bound by that. It just seems like such an un-Anglican thing to do.

@ Ken G:
Good for you, and the beauty of volunteering. Walk away, never look back when negativity rears its ugly horns. Move on. Don’t sell your soul, find another opportunity. There are many.

Churches don’t do well policing/filtering/mentoring or monitoring (whatever it’s called) social behavior. But how we treat each other is EVERYTHING. So, church is a transient experience, not vested in a group. It can turn bad on a dime. Leadership changes, [TWW notes with YRR, i.e.]. One bad apple, a lump of yeast, etc.

Claque: a group of sycophantic followers.

… in regard to the three posers in the post. They each have a claque.

Thersites wrote:

Possibly when those who abuse their position of power publicly repent, an indication of real repentance is they no longer seek the position of power.

Yes. Great comment!

The power is what allowed the abuse to occur. There is always some sort of power imbalance in any abusive situation (one time or chronic abuse).

i.e. If abuse has happened, an issue of power differentials is there at some level. Even if it’s subtle, or only happened in one quick moment, or the power differentials are more indirect or systemic and takes some time to discern and see the patterns and/or roots. Where there is abuse, there is a power differential at play *somewhere*.

So giving that up that power *has* to be part of repentance, otherwise the abuser betrays a lack of understanding of self, God, and others about what they did wrong and why it occurred. It inhibits restoration for the abuser/s and can continue to abuse, devalue, minimize the abused person/s. Though God can work in mysterious and providential ways to free the abused person/s from that pain, neglect, and minimization despite what their previous abuser/s are doing.

@ drstevej:
I appreciated your thesis “The Sinews of the Body of Christ” Calvin’s Concept of Church Discipline

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

Christiane wrote:

In my Church, we are ‘all’ sinners and we know it. In some Churches, I guess people are better than that, but for us, we know the truth about what we have done ….. we have the crucifix before us to remind us.

I can’t help but be slightly concerned by this.

The context of the post is the enabling of abusers by followers who say exactly that: every one of us “is a sinner” in some vague, pervasive, but somehow comfortingly nebulous sense – the more comforting because, even though I am just as guilty as the worst predator, by the same token the kindest and most loving saint is just as guilty as me.

There is a reason that, when Jesus was asked which is the greatest commandment (singular), he gave two answers. “And the second is like it…” according to Matthew’s account. Wrongs committed against other human beings matter before God. If we can’t repent enough to want to put finite wrongs right towards our brother/sister whom we can see, it’s not credible that we’ve repented of infinite wrongs against God whom we can’t see. And if we stand idly by while one brother/sister wrongs another, that is the light in which our love for God is seen.

I am not TOTALLY depraved, Nick. 🙂

The ‘difference’ in how faith communities relate to ‘the others’ usually reflects whether the faith community sees itself as ‘pure’
OR
whether the faith community understands that it’s members will always have need to pray ‘Jesus Christ Son Savior have mercy on us’.

Think about it. 🙂

https://youtu.be/abxS37JqlgU
flat earth conspiracy folks are really making a comeback. The video is actually quite good and it does ask some very hard questions of people who hold to a Young Earth Creationist model of origins.

A few thoughts…..
1) great post Dee, I am a complimentarian Calvinist and I think I agree with all of it
2) not everyone that would call themselves a “Calvinist” would agree with all of Calvin’s writings…. I think we all just use the term Calvinist as a “catch-all”.
3) I think the “celebrity pastor” mindset has hurt the church a lot…. as many have said on this blog, the average Joe pastor that loves his small flock and is content with the work the Lord has given him is overlooked… there are many heroes of the faith still
4) the double standards and scores of hurting people are not going unnoticed by the Lord, I do not want to let what I see in Christiandom discourage me….. I try to get wiser as I get older…. which is all any of us can do
5) I do think there is an element of Spiritual warfare in this…. the last few years just have too many stories and too many factions. Good theology does not produce factions.

Bridget wrote:

There is not one response that fits all circumstances.

Very true.

Burwell wrote:

Additionally, this Anglican church is affiliated with the Rwandan bishopric, not the Anglican Church of the US or the Episcopal Church.

That bunch is very conservative. It is amazing to me how different various anglican churches can be. When I was in the process of becoming an Episcopalian we had to attend classes, of course, and one thing they emphasized many times is the broad variety of differences between not just groups but also between individual churches within our group (TEC). They basically emphasized do not assume you can predict anything about some church merely by the name.

Now I see not just that, but I see that our parish accommodates a variety of opinions in our own parish. So there you go. Broad tolerance in one place and not another, all either belonging to the anglican communion or else using the word while not yet recognized by the mother ship or else some just being more conservative that the Deity himself (IMO).

Steve240 wrote:

One thing that we all need to be aware of is what is called “confirmation bias.”

Bias is a shorthand for thinking when we lack the time or knowledge to make better decisions. I try to keep an open mind when possible but the dilemma is further experience typically adds confirmation to my existing bias.

When the pastor tell us to obey very clear teachings in the bible, yes we should submit to that pastor. Namely if the pastor tells us to love God and love our neighbors, yes we should do it. Because in reality we are not actually submitting to the pastor. But the pastor points out “correctly” what God clearly said. So we are obeying God.

But when the pastor tell us to go against the words of God, we must refuse to obey. Namely if the pastor tells us to hate God and hate our neighbors, we must disobey. The pastor might cover it up with fancy falsehood, just as Satan does. He would tell us why we can love person 1 while hating person 2, for example. But if we obey God we know that we must love both person 1 and 2. If we only love person 1 and yet hate person 2, we are disobeying God.

For example let’s say your church is lead by person 1 your pastor. He is married to his wife, person 2. It was later found that person 1 kept on abusing person 2. In fact person 1 pointed a loaded gun at person 2. Person 2 can’t take it anymore and its filing for divorce. Now the church is asking you to cover up the evidence for person 1’s abuses, while excommunicating person 2 out of the church for “un-Godly” divorce. What would you do?

There is a fine line between disciplining out of love, and punishing out of hatred. The first is to correct someone’s sins out of love. The second is to hurt someone just for the sake of hurting that person. Once again Satan can cover these up with fancy words. But a true Christian will be guided by the Holy Spirit and see the truth.