Al Mohler Extolls CJ Mahaney at T4G While Joking at the Expense of SGM Victims. Does Money Play a Role in the Relationship?

"Jokes mean something, maybe not to you, but certainly to the person who did not find them funny." link

wikipedia
link

This morning, I was doing some reading in preparation for this post while listening to Rich Mullins greatest hits. I sure miss that guy! Any other fans out there? When I heard the song, If I Stand, I felt myself starting to cry.

I slowly began to figure out why. Until about 25 years ago, I thought that Christians, while sinners, didn't do the *big* sins. I never imagined respected Christians being caught in child sex abuse cover up, laughing about child sex abuse allegations, etc. The last 8 years have been an eye-opener for this naive Christian. Today, as I write about the T4G playgroup (more about that in a minute) along with reading about evangelical Dennis Hastert's predatory behavior (we will write about this next week), I find myself almost sick to my stomach. Add to that the sadness of caring for my terminally ill mother in law along with my handicapped parents, I find myself understanding more and more why we need the strength, love, grace and mercy of Jesus.

When I was 23 and doing child abuse follow-up in Salem, Massachusetts, I remember thinking that I was so glad I was a Christian since this could not happen in the church. Decades later, here I sit writing one more post excoriating the evangelical/Calvinista community for exhibiting despicable attitudes and actions that cause further pain to those who have been sexually abused within the church. The one thing the Calvinists have got right-there is a lot of depravity in this world and celebrity leaders are sure exhibiting it.

The Twitter ministry of Mike Sloan

I just love it when a new face jumps into defending abuse victims. Here is a link to Mike Sloan's Twitter page. This is what it says about him.

Pastor, Trainer in Child Sexual Abuse Prevention, Longing for the church to remember it's old strength by protecting the vulnerable, M.Div. Covenant Sem.

He is a pastor with New City Presbyterian Church. A guy like this could almost convince me to believe 3 out of 5 Solas….almost! I will feature some of his tweet images today.

Al Mohler remonstrates Penn State leaders while supporting his BFF, CJ Mahaney.

Why? Is it due to CJ's incessant kissing up to the big dogs? He calls Al Mohler "he smartest man on earth." Does Al Mohler really enjoy this fawning behavior? What does that say about him? Could there be another reason? Here is my favorite Mike Sloan image.

 Screen Shot 2016-04-15 at 2.31.50 PM

CJ Mahaney does not recognize, or perhaps ignores, the sin inherent in the system he created.

Al Mohler calls CJ *humble* in the audio below. But CJ Mahaney appears to love the attention of this group more than his friends or he would be really humble and step away, even if he believes he is innocent. He might even be willing to apologize and meet with the victims and their families. But he hasn't. Does his current persona match up with the quote below? Has he really taken responsibility?

However, he is one of the original four of T4G and we believe he has been very generous in helping this group get, and stay, on its feet.

Screen Shot 2016-04-15 at 2.22.38 PM

There is tremendous pain which is felt to this very day from the victims and their families.

I have had the chance to meet and talk with many of the families and victims. All of us remember what we felt on 9/11. Well, these families still feel the pain they experienced at the hands of a predator and a callous leadership and I believe them. Again from Mike Sloan:

Screen Shot 2016-04-15 at 2.31.04 PM

At T4G 2016, Al Mohler told a joke, apparently at the expense of the victims. Some of the men in the audience laugh along with him.

According to Al Mohler, his wife Mary refers to the 4 in T4G as Al's little playgroup.  It seems like the 4 boys are having lots of chuckles. In the audio below, you will hear Al joking about looking up CJ Mahaney on Google. Listen carefully and you will hear the laughs. Start listening at the 2:00 minute mark to hear the *joke*. However, it is worth listening to the section before this.

Now, for all the people who laughed along with Mohler's ill-advised and callous joke, we present some of the links that you will see if you Google CJ Mahaney's name. 

Al Mohler offers no sympathy to those families who were victimized by the largest sex scandal in evangelical history in spite of knowing that some perps are in prison.

Imagine if you were a victim listening to Mohler as he then continues to joke about Mahaney's favorite sports teams. Mohler trivialized the entire SGM matter and that is downright shameful for a man in his position.The following pictures are from Mike Sloan.

Screen Shot 2016-04-15 at 2.30.06 PM

Screen Shot 2016-04-15 at 2.30.54 PM

Does Al Mohler understand that he emboldens perpetrators by his coarse one-liner?

It is important to realize that SNAP was honored in the Best Picture of the Year-Spotlight. SNAP helped expose pedophile priests and is now helping to expose child sex abuse and cover up in the evangelical church. It would not be wise to dismiss their thoughts on the matter. I wonder if Al Mohler thinks this is a joke as well?

Screen Shot 2016-04-15 at 2.30.33 PM

Al Mohler said he has never heard CJ say one unkind thing about anybody.

Well, I guess that settles it. CJ  is always kind. I wonder if Larry Tomczak feels that way. I bet Larry didn't give any money to SBTS so he probably doesn't matter.

However, one word Mohler forgot to mention in his gushing introduction of Mahaney is "generous".

Could CJ Mahaney's contributions to Al Mohler's SBTS, along with his fawning accolades, have played a part in Mohler's loyalty to Mahaney?

A few years ago Deb, who always follows the money, discovered that CJ Mahaney had given $100,000 to SBTS. In addition, SGM, which CJ ran as the former *Head Apostle*, also gave SBTS another $100,000. So Deb wrote $$$ THE MAHANEY MONEY MACHINE $$$, one of my favorite posts. Interestingly, these large donations were not disclosed to the SGM people in the pews who were eating oatmeal and increasing their giving because SGM *needed* it.

SGM was not a member of the SBC during this time. They also ran their own *seminary* called The Pastors College; yet were still giving money to SBTS. Think about it. When Mahaney took off to Louisville, he joined the SBC which I'm sure was happy to accept him since he was quite the generous donor to their flagship seminary. You can read about this in Brother CJ Mahaney: He’s Done Gone and Joined the Southern Baptists!

In 2006, CJ Mahaney gave a talk during chapel at SBTS and presented Al Mohler with a check from SGM for $10,000, beginning at the 8:00 minute mark. At the 9:00 minute mark, these words are uttered:

"And that boys and girls is how you get invited back!"

Immediately afterwards, there's that nauseating Mahaney chuckle. Do you think I'm kidding? Well, listen quickly since this recording will most likely disappear from the SBTS archive. But don't worry. We have made a recording.

If you listen to the beginning of Mahaney's talk, you will hear him describe Al Mohler as one of the greatest heroes of the faith and the smartest man ever! This is a typical CJ talk. He spends about 20% of his speaking time talking about how wonderful his buddy Al is, what a great athlete CJ is (he never played any sort of professional or collegiate sports since he never went to college) and talking about himself. This is considered thoughtful scholarship to present to seminary students? Good night!

WordPress is not allowing us to upload this file for "security reasons." If anyone out there knows how to get around this, please let us know. You will need to click either link to listen to it

This entire T4G *in your face* fiasco honoring Mahaney by letting him speak along with Al Mohler's joke leaves me cold. Thank God I can meditate on Jesus who would have put the victims and their families first. I bet he wouldn't have been one of the ones laughing at Moher's joke. 

This Rich Mullins song is dedicated to the SGM victims and their families.

This Rich Mullins song is my prayer for all of us. May we leave love and a drop of grace wherever we go.

Comments

Al Mohler Extolls CJ Mahaney at T4G While Joking at the Expense of SGM Victims. Does Money Play a Role in the Relationship? — 504 Comments

  1. So depressing of a week. Al Mohler is simply picking up C.J.’s horrible type of humor.

    Are you guys going to write about CLC showing up to Larry Caffrey’s trial? Or share Todd’s post. So crazy!

  2. @ Former CLCer:
    Yes, I saw that earlier today, and I’m including the info below for our readers.

    Janna Chan sometimes posts over at Todd’s blog, and this is what she wrote:

    https://thouarttheman.org/2016/04/15/clc-leaders-bo-lotinsky-don-nalle-just-told-larry-caffery-covenant-life-church-supporting/

    Hello All,

    It’s Janna L. Chan. I just got back from District Court in which alleged pedophile Larry Caffery’s lawyer said that Mr. Caffery was waiving a pre-trial hearing and going straight to trial in May. That was my understanding of what the attorney said, at any rate.

    That interaction was very brief but led to another encounter that Thou Art The Man readers may be interested in. Two men left the court room as soon as I did. I walked to a bench to sit down but they lingered in the hallway to introduce themselves to Mr. Caffery as Bo Lotinsky and Don Nalle.

    Bo Lotinsky is a prominent lay elder at Covenant Life Church. Don Nalle is Covenant Life Church’s communications director. This information can be found on Covenant Life Church’s website. I did recognize Mr. Lotinsky from his picture on Covenant Life Church’s website yet would not have known who Mr. Nalle was had he not identified him as being Don Nalle.

    Mr. Lotinsky and Mr. Nalle told Mr. Caffery that they were there on behalf of the Church to support him because he is a member of Covenant Life Church. They asked him if there was anything they could do for him. I do not recall the exact details of the conversation but the word “transportation” was raised.

    This tells us several things:

    1. Mr. Caffery is a presently a member of Covenant Life Church.
    2. Mr. Caffery is being enthusiastically supported by Covenant Life Church leaders who sent Mr. Lotinsky and Mr. Nalle out to deliver that message in person.
    3. Mr. Caffery is being supported by Covenant Life Church as an alleged pedophile who is a member even though Covenant Life Church has repeatedly refused to support members who are alleged victims of a pedophile.

    I’m certainly glad I’m not part of a Church that expends resources helping alleged pedophiles who are members while hanging alleged victims who are members out to dry.

    And I leave that with you.

    Janna L. Chan

  3. Dee, thank you for this post. I think more people are waking up to the corruption because of this blog. Deb, you are smart to follow the money! None of these guys would be in this gig if it wasn’t for the power and money. Hopefully the money will dry up and we will be left with the faithful pastors who actually care about people.

  4. Yes! Hard core Rich Mullins fan! Modern Christian music sounds hallow, shallow, and contrived in comparison to anything he wrote.
    And, yes. If I stand is a good one.

    I also love this one. It may be my favorite. But then I love the land that he’s singing about even though I don’t live there anymore.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaNwTYJrYtA&feature=share

    Now back to reading the rest of the article.

  5. Let's hear it for CJ!!!

    Here is Al Mohler back in 2004 when he lauded his BFF (Mahaney) who handed over the reigns of CLC to Joshua Harris.

    That was almost 12 years ago, and now we know the rest of the story at CLC…

  6. Dee,

    Mark Dever does mention CJ's 'wonderful generosity' back in 2004 at Mahaney's retirement banquet. Now we have a better understanding of what Dever meant about CJ's generosity.

  7. This week was horrible. Last week was awful too. Dee, I am praying for you, and I am glad to see the church being the church here more than many places.

    Last week in close proximity to my husband’s workplace, a horrible tragedy occurred in the military community. Two precious little children and their mother are left without their loved one, and another family grieves the senselessness of suicide.

    Though I didn’t know anyone involved personally, it is close to home because of location and military community. One week on, I feel we have lived ten years because of the utter callousness on display in the evangelical community, one which I grew up in as a missionary kid in the UK and USA.

    This sex abuse coverup scandal envelops men I respected as a child, and I have come to the realization they do not have any love for my poor family nor so many others.

    We are all just worms to them.

    Not to God. Never to God. People are precious, and I was touched and brought to tears by a military spokesperson statement which poignantly said, “Folks, people are hurting” followed by exhortation to encourage and support grieving people in the military community to make use of therapy and support each other through this tragedy.

    It hit me reading that last week, and now in the fallout of this one: how come these men couldn’t weep with those who weep? What is so broken in their lives and theology that they cannot see the pain of real people and engage them? How can they preach platitudes and sing empty praises while a small group outside gets ridicule and dismissal for standing with brothers and sisters plus people pushed outside of the church for being victimized inside it?

    This is about spiritual abuse, sexual abuse, and grief, but these leaders can’t even acknowledge those traumas matter, because we are all just worms to them. Yet they can flatter each other, weep over being held accountable by an internet “mob”, moan about being “trolled”, and preach “boldly” while being absolutely disgustingly cowardly as regards truth worked out in reality and the sin of pride that is tearing us apart.

    I have cried more this week over that hardness of heart than anything. This is the true Reformation in my life: I’m done with those guys and their opinion of me or my ilk. We all are deeply deeply precious to God, and they, frankly, have nothing to teach or exhort anyone about anything.

    They lost all authority because they didn’t listen to the truth. They brazenly dismissed and some have even smeared victims (people victimized by abuse) despite criminal convictions and court evidence.

    And today, I reiterate what that military member said, “Folks, people are hurting.” God’s people are hurting. We are meant to live in harmony with one another. We can’t ignore a cancer growing in one part of the body; we have to cut it out and people need time to heal.

    Folks, people are hurting. And those who think themselves our leaders make a joke out of it. People. Are. Hurting. God is not mocked, and He weeps with us here.

  8. @ Deb:
    Yeah, we know about the $10,000 and you and I know about another amount as well.

    So, do you think he gave dough to Piper and Virgo? Given his shivery I would say it is quite possible.

    PS-Good job embedding the videos in the comments!!!

  9. @ Melody:
    I so appreciate your comment her, Your Tweets and your work with the SGM victims Facebook group. I am so glad to see another warrior on the scene. We need you.

  10. Thank you, Mike Sloan, for having the courage to speak up in support of victims and basic justice. Sadly, it is a rarity these days– from pastors

  11. As I stated on Twitter when I saw that Al Mohler made such a “joke,” it made me sick.

    He ought to know better. What does that say that the president of a major seminary did not even pause to consider the consequences of essentially mocking child sexual abuse victims and/or those victims’ supporters (and that isn’t even getting into the whole CJ Mahaney invitation to speak thing).

    I do not know what “gospel” Mohler is peddling, but it certainly isn’t no Gospel of Christ if he thought mocking such child sex abuse victims and their supporters in an introduction is ever a good idea. But I supposed laughing it off is easier than looking at one’s own soul on the matter….just saying.

  12. Out here in the Intermountain West, we’ve got a crisis where the largest religious university in the region stands accused of wanting to throw out a young woman who was sexually assaulted–for honor code violations. Because she had a man in her bedroom where the assault occurred and you’re not supposed to do that. Now the only reason that Brigham Young University knows about this is because a Utah County deputy sheriff shared a copy of the police file on the sexual assault with the BYU Honor Code office.

    BYU wants to toss out this young woman for having a man in her room, while at the same time the county wants to prosecute the man for sexual assault. The young woman believes she is going to have to leave Utah, and put the prosecution in jeopardy because she cannot enroll again at BYU until she talks to the Honor Code office, which wants to throw her out. It’s no wonder the prosecutor complained to the Salt Lake Tribune yesterday that the case is in jeopardy.

    I’m not naming the victim here, but she’s come forward and that information is available. She’s a very brave young woman to stand up in the face of a community which has a very bad habit of seeing sexually assaulted young women as “damaged goods.” Let me be clear: none of this is about the guilt or innocent of the accused. It is about how BYU is able to keep the number of reported sexual assaults low through the unspoken threat of being kicked out of school for honor code violations. It is about BYU, a private institution, getting copies of police documents (including, I’m told, medical reports, so here comes a HIPAA violation). And it’s about a deputy who is still employed even though he passed those documents on to a private university.

    The whole thing stinks to high heaven. Thankfully, news organizations outside the Intermountain West are starting to report on this.

  13. @Dee, you neglected to mention the push back you received on Twitter for pointing this out – that Mohler joked about sexual abuse victims, which caused these “men of God” to laugh at his joke.

    It was surreal reading tweets from pastors calling you a liar, claiming Mohler didn’t joke about abuse victims, refusing to acknowledge the laughter of the thousands.

  14. dee wrote:

    @ Former CLCer:
    Yes on CLC showing up on the side of the perp! No one showed up for the victim!

    According to Boz T, in all his years as a prosecutor specializing in child sexual abuse cases, he has NEVER seen a church show up for the victim. Always “RALLY ROUND THE PERP, BOYS! GOD SAITH!”

  15. Remnant wrote:

    It was surreal reading tweets from pastors calling you a liar, claiming Mohler didn’t joke about abuse victims, refusing to acknowledge the laughter of the thousands.

    But Ees Party Line, Comrades!

  16. Divorce Minister wrote:

    I do not know what “gospel” Mohler is peddling, but it certainly isn’t no Gospel of Christ if he thought mocking such child sex abuse victims and their supporters in an introduction is ever a good idea.

    The gospel of child molesters.

    But I supposed laughing it off is easier than looking at one’s own soul on the matter…

    “What’s your problem, Lukewarm Apostate? CAN’T YOU TAKE A JOKE?”

  17. dee wrote:

    @ Former CLCer:
    Yes on CLC showing up on the side of the perp! No one showed up for the victim!

    Am I mistaken or was this the case that Mark Mitchell did the video about, explaining how their priority is the victim and the victim’s family?

  18. “Until about 25 years ago, I thought that Christians, while sinners, didn’t do the *big* sins. I never imagined respected Christians being caught in child sex abuse cover up, laughing about child sex abuse allegations, etc.” -Dee

    You were right 25 years ago. This stuff isn’t Christian and these charlatans aren’t Christians. These creeps are so bold to continually stand on a stage and say that semi-Pelagianism isn’t Christian and Arminianism is abominable. Most people wouldn’t know what they’re talking about. But go on any street or visit any prison and you will find out how child molesters are viewed. As I tried to watch T4G this week I was constantly made to feel sick at my stomach. I happened to be watching when Mohler introduced Mahaney. I was so stunned that I was sure that I had misunderstood him until I began reading others’ comments on it later. There is no question in my mind that these guys are simply not Christians. To borrow a word from Jeremiah and Bernie Sanders, they are “whores.” (whore: “debase oneself by doing something for unworthy motives, typically to make money. Google definition). Yes, it’s about the money. (I almost fell out of my chair when Mohler railed against the PROSPERITY GOSPEL!)

  19. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    dee wrote:
    @ Former CLCer:
    Yes on CLC showing up on the side of the perp! No one showed up for the victim!
    According to Boz T, in all his years as a prosecutor specializing in child sexual abuse cases, he has NEVER seen a church show up for the victim. Always “RALLY ROUND THE PERP, BOYS! GOD SAITH!”

    That says it all.

  20. Thanks to the Deebs and the many faithful readers here who have been involved this week challenging those who would have the public believe that Mahaney is as guiltless as Job.

    It has been a busy week. Although I was disappointed that Mahaney was able to speak at T4G, I believe many people now realize the sham of these celebrity leaders. I am also encouraged that some pastors are beginning to make public stands against Mahaney and T4G. The participants are beginning to feel uncomfortable as witnessed by Phil Johnson’s recent FB post. I look at it as an attempt to quiet dissent the pastors at Grace church are receiving for MacArthur’s participation in T4G.

    I just posted a new blog article. You may be surprised to find that the fluff on Mahaney’s preferences for sports teams Mohler reportedly got from Googling CJ’s name actually come from Mahaney’s own blog!

    Our Roman Catholic friends might be interested to know that I compared Pope Francis to the T4G leaders and the Pope comes out looking more Christ-like.

    https://thouarttheman.org/2016/04/16/mahaney-rejoins-fellow-celebrities-t4g-stage-no-acknowledgment-abuse-victims/

     

  21. I read the Darrin Patrick post linked in TWW header. Both the letter from the elders to the congregation and Darrin’s letter to the congregation are full of the usual Christianese (“season of brokenness”, “long term plan of personal restoration”, “we are clinging to God’s promises”, ad nauseum).

    Notably missing is any mention of Darrin’s sins against the two “women” (I wonder how young they were at the time of his sins), implying that they were willing participants and not victims. This is interesting since two of the charges made against Darrin by his leadership are (1) “Domineering over those in his charge” and “Misuse of power/authority.” But what is not missing from the elders’ statement is that Darrin “broke trust with his leadership”, with no mention of the trust he shattered with these women. Even if these women were not part of the church, they were exposed to a wolf parading as a minister of the tender mercies of God. It’s all about the men, all about the leaders.

  22. Janet wrote:

    I read the Darrin Patrick post

    Did you know that Darrin Patrick was scheduled to speak at the “Men are better than Women” (CBMw) pre-conference the day prior to T$G started? They must have done some quick behind-the-scenes work to reparir that leak in the dike. I have before and after screen shots!

  23. @ Melody:
    YES! to everything Melody says so eloquently and from the heart! And thank you, Dee, for taking the time to document all of this. Mohler’s apparent “joke” makes me sick. Multitudes of people are grieving over their hardness of heart.

  24. Divorce Minister wrote:

    I do not know what “gospel” Mohler is peddling,

    I’ve noticed this about many Christians, leaders and rank and file.
    I’ve been known to say, “They don’t really ‘get’ Jesus.”
    And they don’t. They are peddling something, to be sure. But it isn’t the gospel and it had nothing to do with Jesus.

  25. Janet wrote:

    Notably missing is any mention of Darrin’s sins against the two “women” (I wonder how young they were at the time of his sins), implying that they were willing participants and not victims. This is interesting since two of the charges made against Darrin by his leadership are (1) “Domineering over those in his charge” and “Misuse of power/authority.” But what is not missing from the elders’ statement is that Darrin “broke trust with his leadership”, with no mention of the trust he shattered with these women. Even if these women were not part of the church, they were exposed to a wolf parading as a minister of the tender mercies of God. It’s all about the men, all about the leaders.

    Perhaps someone with a legal background can answer this question: If one or both women Darrin Patrick was involved with were congregants, does that trigger any kind of potential problem with violation of any “fiduciary duty” laws in Missouri?

    Also, if it does, and if Mr. Patrick were to be reinstated in any church in a state with such laws, does that put the church at risk legally by having a church leader-staff member-officer with a record of violating their role of pastoral authority?

    Same question potentially applies to Tullian Tchividjian and laws in Florida, which is why I’m wondering if this will be an emerging issue to be addressed. I guess what I’m getting at is whether inappropriate involvements of any kind with former or present congregation participants needs to be part of standard background checks during employment process, or church planter funding application processes, etc.

  26. Dee, thanks for the Rich Mullin’s song. It has given me renewed strength for the battle. I was young and now am old, but I will continue to stand against that which has come into the church that should not be.

  27. @ dee:

    Thanks, Dee.
    I guess you and I are the only Rich Mullins fans on here. A pity.
    He was a giant in song-craft from a more sincere, down to earth, and eloquent time in Christian music.

  28. “According to Al Mohler, his wife Mary refers to the 4 in T4G as Al’s little playgroup.”

    Whoa! I’m beginning to really wonder about these boys now!

  29. I think Mohler’s “humor” was more of a jab at watchbloggers than it was a jab at victims.

    But it is sad in either case that this was really the only mention of the SGM scandal at t4g. This would have been a great opportunity to acknowledge that there have been victims. Even if every other accusation is false (which is doubtful) there have been crimes committed at SGM. I don’t think Mahaney should have spoken for the reasons Todd Pruitt laid out in his article on the subject. However, I would have been ok but not thrilled with his speaking, and even speaking on Job, if that message had included something about the suffering faced by many members at SGM because of sexual abuse. Mahaney, even if he is innocent, still should acknowledge the victims of abuse at SGM.

  30. Mara wrote:

    I guess you and I are the only Rich Mullins fans on here. A pity.

    How did you come to that conclusion?

  31. You really have to wonder why Mohler is so loyal to Mahaney. When Mohler returned to SBTS in 1993 he showed no loyalty to any of the people who befriended and nurtured him when he was a student there. Of course his old seminary relationships were formed in the days when Mohler was on the moderate side of the Baptist Battles and supported women in ministry, before he was leader of the YRR movement. After being reborn as a conservative Neo-Calvanist, he returned to Southern as president. Upon his return to his Alma mater he showed no loyalty or mercy to anyone who held differing views, including old friends and teachers, even his old mentor Roy Honeycutt who preceded him as president of SBTS. So, once again I ask why is he so loyal to Mahaney? There must be more to the story than money and kindred theology. Perhaps there are dark secrets among the brotherhood that will be revealed one day. Time will tell. What is done in darkness will be revealed in the light.

  32. js wrote:

    However, I would have been ok but not thrilled with his speaking, and even speaking on Job, if that message had included something about the suffering faced by many members at SGM because of sexual abuse.

    Mahaney did speak and it was about Job. But I don't think he got past himself in application.

  33. Unfortunately for Phil Johnson et similar, many Christians won't play politics anymore. We couldn't (ed.) care less what these con artists say. They either repent or we separate for good. They got their Reformation, just not their way. @ Todd Wilhelm:

  34. Melody wrote:

    : I’m done with those guys and their opinion of me or my ilk. We all are deeply deeply precious to God, and they, frankly, have nothing to teach or exhort anyone about anything.

    Yes.

  35. I don’t remember much Rich Mullins but liked what I’ve read of him and the remix of In My Fathers House or whatever it was called, by MWS and others, was great. 😉
    @ Bridget:

  36. js wrote:

    I would have been ok but not thrilled with his speaking, and even speaking on Job, if that message had included something about the suffering faced by many members at SGM because of sexual abuse.

    Implied in Mahaney’s message on his Job-like suffering, is that the victims and their supporters are the very source of CJ’s suffering.

  37. And let me add that Together for The Gospel is one of the most divisive evangelical organizations besides TGC as it stands currently. I have no delusions that things will change as quickly as they should if we were dealing with humble believers, because T4G leaders have continued to dig in, so I know I am not the only Christian who will entirely separate from them as of this week. Because of their refusal to ackowledge many families affected by in-court documented child sex abuse coverup. Their choice, our consequence.

    Melody wrote:

    Unfortunately for Phil Johnson et similar, many Christians won’t play politics anymore. We could care less what these con artists say. They either repent or we separate for good. They got their Reformation, just not their way.
    @ Todd Wilhlem:

  38. Exactly! That’s so disgusting I could puke! There is such a wicked callousness and self pity in that that is simply Satanic.

    This is why all those who justify it are in serious sin. Including enablers like Phil Johnson whose smarmy statement made me feel physically ill.

    Again I repeat, these are not spiritual leaders if they could care less about the many Christian brothers and sisters harmed and abused through SGM’s utter failure to report child sex abuse and willful suppression of the truth of child sex abuse.

    I can’t believe we have to spell out what the scandal is. Child. Sex. Abuse.

    Matthew 18:1-10

    God is not mocked by the deflections and reframing.

    Child sex abuse coverup.

    @ Remnant:

  39. Remnant wrote:

    Implied in Mahaney’s message on his Job-like suffering,

    Mahaney suffers like Job?

    Why don’t we just say that Driscoll is as wise as Solomon?
    Or Piper is as compassionate as the Good Samaritan?

    Again, this playgroup doesn’t ‘get’ Jesus.
    As our own Nick says, “They use the Bible as a sock puppet that always agrees with them.”

  40. @ js:
    What is the difference when you get down to it? Many victims have been blogging at SGMsurvivors and other places for years. Other Bloggers are supporting the victims. Marginalize the bloggers, marginalize the victims. AL is the master of marginalizing. Even the men appointed to oversee him go right along with it.

    AL is a long time professional communicator. He knows exactly what he is doing. It works on his followers. So I don’t expect you to get it. So, just imagine a molester and the horror and torture a child goes through. Then imagine protecting the cruel pervert because he said the magic words. And the tortured victim must live as though it never happened. Grace for the tortured, Law and bi justice for the innocent victim is the religion.

    That is what Mahaney, Dever, Mohler and now you, are doing by deed and implication. What do you have against innocent children?

    See, we are all responsible for protecting the most innocent of our society either directly or by what or who we support or not. We cannot dumb this issue down. Lines have to be drawn on this issue. The excuses of technicalities or translating innuendo ….need to stop working.

  41. Mara wrote:

    Mahaney suffers like Job?
    Why don’t we just say that Driscoll is as wise as Solomon?
    Or Piper is as compassionate as the Good Samaritan?
    Again, this playgroup doesn’t ‘get’ Jesus.

    I know. Sad.

  42. Dee, you have the wrong time marker for the audio. The joke is not at 7:30. It’s at 2:05.

    I was quite confused for a little bit until I found it.

  43. Bridget wrote:

    Mara wrote:

    I guess you and I are the only Rich Mullins fans on here. A pity.

    How did you come to that conclusion?

    I love him. One of the few who can make me cry.

  44. @ Bridget:

    I know. I was just trying to get a little more reaction out of a few people. Rich was worth it. 🙂
    And if we can introduce a younger generation to him that missed him, I’m all for that.

  45. Lydia wrote:

    What is the difference when you get down to it? Many victims have been blogging at SGMsurvivors and other places for years. Other Bloggers are supporting the victims.

    Mocking people who are standing up for victims is not much different than mocking victims. JS seems to miss this completely. Victims often depend on others to speak publicly for them as it is difficult to speak out when you have been abused. AL Mohler and JS, alike seem to have little understanding of abuse and recovery from abuse.

  46. @ Bridget:

    Yes, It was mocking the victims. Mohler is not ignorant but he knows his followers are gullible.

    He does not really want to understand it, does he? It does not fit the agenda.

  47. @ Divorce Minister:

    They have to laugh because to take it seriously would mean they would have to listen to the media investigation, read the truth behind the lawsuit, and confront the pain of the victims. They would rather take the money from one another and present their big shots in the kingdom of God.

    One day they will learn that the true celebrities are those who suffered child sex abuse and who were kicked to the curb by their church are the true celebrities.

  48. Divorce Minister wrote:

    I do not know what “gospel” Mohler is peddling, but it certainly isn’t no Gospel of Christ if he thought mocking such child sex abuse victims and their supporters in an introduction is ever a good idea. But I supposed laughing it off is easier than looking at one’s own soul on the matter….just sayin

    “Gospel” means “good news”. Their good news with these guys is that in exchange for mucho dinero, (or protection from blackmail) they will stand up for Mahaney and they can all make more dinero!
    Yep. That’s their good news/gospel.

  49. Their laughter was more like mocking, defined as

    making fun of someone or something in a cruel way; derisive.
    “the mocking hostility in his voice made her wince”

    The source of CJ’s downfall, was, after all, the MAKING PUBLIC of the ongoing pattern of sexual abuse cover-ups, the revelation of his supposed blackmail or LT, and the control tactics he used (shown in all its abysmal glory in the docs) and not the actual performing of the alleged crimes/sins.

    If it hadn’t been for those darned whistleblowers, CJ would still be ensconced on his throne over his kingdom. So yeah, CJ is suffering satanic attack just as did innocent Job. Innocent and upright. Except for those darned whistleblowers.

  50. @ Remnant:

    They are spiritually bankrupt as far as I'm concerned. They are violating the greatest commandment because they love themselves more than God ($$$) and they do not love their neighbor (those who have been hurt).

  51. Remnant wrote:

    js wrote:

    I would have been ok but not thrilled with his speaking, and even speaking on Job, if that message had included something about the suffering faced by many members at SGM because of sexual abuse.

    Implied in Mahaney’s message on his Job-like suffering, is that the victims and their supporters are the very source of CJ’s suffering.

    And that is sad.

  52. Remnant wrote:

    If it hadn’t been for those darned whistleblowers, CJ would still be ensconced on his throne over his kingdom.

    I have sometimes had this thought that could have been included in a modern-day Scooby Doo episode –

    "Well, we would have gotten away with it if hadn't been for you (collectively) and your stupid BLOG!"

    PRAISE GOD FOR THE INTERNET! 

  53. @ js:
    Bridget wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    What is the difference when you get down to it? Many victims have been blogging at SGMsurvivors and other places for years. Other Bloggers are supporting the victims.

    Mocking people who are standing up for victims is not much different than mocking victims. JS seems to miss this completely. Victims often depend on others to speak publicly for them as it is difficult to speak out when you have been abused. AL Mohler and JS, alike seem to have little understanding of abuse and recovery from abuse.

    It is quite different if you believe much of what the advocates of the victims are saying is wrong. If muffler believes cj if innocent of most or all of the charges then he would naturally see a distinction between the victims and their advocates, seeing the latter as worthy of critique.

  54. Maybe it’s. Time for CLC to have Mark Dever come in to enact church discipline on Caffery?

    Wait, discipline is not for the leaders. My bad.
    Deb wrote:

    @ Former CLCer:
    Yes, I saw that earlier today, and I’m including the info below for our readers.

    Janna Chan sometimes posts over at Todd’s blog, and this is what she wrote:

    https://thouarttheman.org/2016/04/15/clc-leaders-bo-lotinsky-don-nalle-just-told-larry-caffery-covenant-life-church-supporting/

    Hello All,

    It’s Janna L. Chan. I just got back from District Court in which alleged pedophile Larry Caffery’s lawyer said that Mr. Caffery was waiving a pre-trial hearing and going straight to trial in May. That was my understanding of what the attorney said, at any rate.

    That interaction was very brief but led to another encounter that Thou Art The Man readers may be interested in. Two men left the court room as soon as I did. I walked to a bench to sit down but they lingered in the hallway to introduce themselves to Mr. Caffery as Bo Lotinsky and Don Nalle.

    Bo Lotinsky is a prominent lay elder at Covenant Life Church. Don Nalle is Covenant Life Church’s communications director. This information can be found on Covenant Life Church’s website. I did recognize Mr. Lotinsky from his picture on Covenant Life Church’s website yet would not have known who Mr. Nalle was had he not identified him as being Don Nalle.

    Mr. Lotinsky and Mr. Nalle told Mr. Caffery that they were there on behalf of the Church to support him because he is a member of Covenant Life Church. They asked him if there was anything they could do for him. I do not recall the exact details of the conversation but the word “transportation” was raised.

    This tells us several things:

    1. Mr. Caffery is a presently a member of Covenant Life Church.
    2. Mr. Caffery is being enthusiastically supported by Covenant Life Church leaders who sent Mr. Lotinsky and Mr. Nalle out to deliver that message in person.
    3. Mr. Caffery is being supported by Covenant Life Church as an alleged pedophile who is a member even though Covenant Life Church has repeatedly refused to support members who are alleged victims of a pedophile.

    I’m certainly glad I’m not part of a Church that expends resources helping alleged pedophiles who are members while hanging alleged victims who are members out to dry.

    And I leave that with you.

    Janna L. Chan

  55. Todd Wilhlem wrote:

    Janet wrote:

    I read the Darrin Patrick post

    Did you know that Darrin Patrick was scheduled to speak at the “Men are better than Women” (CBMw) pre-conference the day prior to T$G started? They must have done some quick behind-the-scenes work to reparir that leak in the dike. I have before and after screen shots!

    For real?

    I still want the gossip…

  56. __

    Q. Are they planning to remove the clergy’s non-reporting of child sexual abuse to the local authorities ‘privilege’ in the state of Maryland?

  57. I am ashamed to say I was there in the chapel for that comment. At the time I was unexposed to Mahaney but was appalled by his lack of humility and lack of self-control in his gift giving. That was a crucial point for me. I had been brought up to give in secret and to never allow for showmanship in my heart. Everything that has followed with Mohler and Mahaney makes complete sense based on that one telling transaction I witnessed. Deb wrote:

    Dee,

    I’m 99.9% sure it’s Mahaney saying:

    “And that boys and girls is how you get invited back.”

    It occurs at the 9 minute mark: http://www.sbts.edu/media/audio/fall2006/20061024mahaney.mp3

    Immediately afterwards, there’s that nauseating chuckle.

  58. Someone posted public info showing the large but dwindling account of SGC, with funds leftover from SGM. I don’t know how cash flow is at SGC Louisville, but they seem to be a smallish church with 5 pastors. Since so much of this support and “friendship” seems to be based on money, what happens if the money runs out?

  59. Lydia wrote:

    @ js:
    What is the difference when you get down to it? Many victims have been blogging at SGMsurvivors and other places for years. Other Bloggers are supporting the victims. Marginalize the bloggers, marginalize the victims. AL is the master of marginalizing. Even the men appointed to oversee him go right along with it.

    AL is a long time professional communicator. He knows exactly what he is doing. It works on his followers. So I don’t expect you to get it. So, just imagine a molester and the horror and torture a child goes through. Then imagine protecting the cruel pervert because he said the magic words. And the tortured victim must live as though it never happened. Grace for the tortured, Law and bi justice for the innocent victim is the religion.

    That is what Mahaney, Dever, Mohler and now you, are doing by deed and implication. What do you have against innocent children?

    See, we are all responsible for protecting the most innocent of our society either directly or by what or who we support or not. We cannot dumb this issue down. Lines have to be drawn on this issue. The excuses of technicalities or translating innuendo ….need to stop working.

    When your jump from my comments to “what do you have against innocent children?” You demonstrate the extremism of blog culture which marginalizes any voices of dissent just as badly as Mohler and co.I have no desire to be a Mohler apologist. I called for Mahaney not to speak at t4g. I think he needs to come clean about what he knew and when. That I raise points of disagreement does not mean I don’t care for victims. I do not have to walk in lockstep with the watchbloggers to care about children. I utterly reject your assertion.I reject the notion that we must all stand against abuse in the same way. I repudiate the idea that if you stray from the watchbloggers orthodoxy that you must not care about children. I am trying to understand what these men are thinking. Maybe this comes across as defense but it is not. Many times I have come here it has been because of matters of theology or matters of unfair association. When everything gets linked to cj, even if he has nothing to do with it, as so often happens in the comments and sometimes in posts, I will call it out. Not because I love cj but because it is just unfair and such bias compromises the good that is done through blogs like this. You are giving people reason to reject your right ideas when you resort to personal smears or make tenuous assertions about these men. Further, when a straight line is drawn from theology to child abuse, I have a problem with that, because a simple web search will show you that abuse happens and is covered up in all kinds of churches and also outside the church.

    In short, I will not be demonized for raising perfectly legitimate points of disagreement.

  60. Quoting from OP: “you will hear Al joking about looking up CJ Mahaney on Google. Listen carefully and you will hear the laughs. ”

    This action by Mohler was also a form of inoculation — useful in promoting future and ongoing resistance in the attendees against any exposure to facts or truths regarding CJ that they might encounter on the internet.

    This was purpose of the ‘joke’.

  61. js wrote:

    I think Mohler’s “humor” was more of a jab at watchbloggers than it was a jab at victims.

    What it was, was crowd manipulation.

  62. @ js:
    Unfair association? The time for an “extreme” response to this is waaay past. They are words not tortured children. What is “extreme” is violating innocent Children and those who protect such things.

    If you went to T4G knowing of the SGM situation then you helped line their pockets. This is my opinion. Most won’t agree with me and are much nicer about it but they allow me to state my opinion.

    At what point do you draw a line on pure evil and those who excuse it with platitudes? Can you not for one minute imagine the horror and confusion a child goes through to be violated by someone they trusted? And then have other trusted adults side with their torturer?

    The time is here to speak of this in real terms.

  63. BL wrote:

    js wrote:

    I think Mohler’s “humor” was more of a jab at watchbloggers than it was a jab at victims.

    What it was, was crowd manipulation.

    Yep. Brings screwtape to mind

  64. js wrote:

    Further, when a straight line is drawn from theology to child abuse, I have a problem with that, because a simple web search will show you that abuse happens and is covered up in all kinds of churches and also outside the church.

    Umm. I am not so sure about that. Yes child abuse happens everywhere, and I have tried in a previous comment to talk about how our culture does not do right by children in a lot of ways, but it seems that it would be legitimate to draw lines, straight or not, between our ideas about children on the one hand and our ideas about philosophical and theological matters on the other hand. If there are connections then they need dragged out in the light of day for all to see. In the case of people who make little children ‘forgive’ their rapist and do it on ‘biblical’ grounds then those who do that bring the theology issue into play themselves. In the case of people who preach/teach/oversee/shepherd people in the name of their religious beliefs then people are right to hold them to account when their lives violate basic principles of that religion including but not limited to the area of child abuse.

    I do not see a way to separate the question of what people do from the question of why they do it. Whenever a person’s theology permits some kinds of egregious behavior then the theology itself must be questioned. Consider the theology of some at the time of the Civil War, for example. There are a lot of christian theologies; not one of them rose from the dead on the third day; they are not divine and untouchable.

  65. @ GSD

    I wonder if SGL gets church planting funds from SBC NAMB.

    After what Mohler tried to pull giving academic credits to the unaccredited SGM Pastors College students, nothing would surprise me.

  66. Lydia wrote:

    @ js:

    If you went to T4G knowing of the SGM situation then you helped line their pockets. This is my opinion.

    I must agree…

  67. @ js:

    The fish rots from the head. Is that a tenuous assertion?

    I will tell you what these men are thinking. They are thinking themselves, money, power, their bffs and their position and legacy. What they are not thinking of is God, children or adults who have been hurt and are hurting. If they had given a talk about people who’ve been hurt I may have been skeptical but at least I might believe it was at least possible they cared about someone other than themselves. But they don’t. They portray themselves instead as martyrs, and people care about children being abused as awful bad torturers, just like Satan did to job! What hubris. What callous disregard. What an utter lack of love they show.

    I just listened to the mohler entry.

  68. GSD wrote:

    I don’t know how cash flow is at SGC Louisville, but they seem to be a smallish church with 5 pastors. Since so much of this support and “friendship” seems to be based on money, what happens if the money runs out?

    I have been told that Bob Kauflin and Jeff Purswell are both on the payroll of the denomination, not the local church.

    But clearly, 5 pastors is not near enough. Have you seen how often they have guest pastors? Those poor guys are obviously overworked

  69.   __

    Bad Seed: “Covenant Life Church Is Open For Business As Usural?”

    hmmm…

    Is ‘victimization’ continuing at the former SGM Maryland flagship, CLC, perhaps?”

    huh?

    Is the former SGM Maryland flagship, CLC continuing the ‘pattern’ of treating sexual abuse victims as if they are no longer ‘good standng members’ worthy of assistance or court representation; contnuing a fourty year long standing ‘documented’ pattern of – favor the child sexual abuser, shun the victim(s) and their parent(s)?

    What?

    What are they not disclosing?

    Skreeeeeeeetch !

    Who ‘else’ are they ‘covering’ for?

    bump.

    How deep does this 501(c)3 non-profit’s pernicious[1] rabbit hole go?

    (sadface)

    Sopy
    __
    [1] per·ni·cious
    [pərˈniSHəs]
    Adjective;
    having a harmful effect, especially in a gradual or subtle way: “the pernicious influences of a 501(c)3 church clergy gone ‘bad’. synonyms: harmful · damaging · destructive · injurious · hurtful .

  70. js wrote:

    Many times I have come here it has been because of matters of theology or matters of unfair association. When everything gets linked to cj, even if he has nothing to do with it, as so often happens in the comments and sometimes in posts, I will call it out. Not because I love cj but because it is just unfair and such bias compromises the good that is done through blogs like this.

    Could you please provide a specific example or two when this occurred? Such a sweeping statement is not very helpful. 

    We put an awful lot of time into documenting what we post.  Where have we unfairly connected the dots between Mahaney and others? 

  71. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    GSD wrote: I don’t know how cash flow is at SGC Louisville, but they seem to be a smallish church with 5 pastors. Since so much of this support and “friendship” seems to be based on money, what happens if the money runs out? I have been told that Bob Kauflin and Jeff Purswell are both on the payroll of the denomination, not the local church. But clearly, 5 pastors is not near enough. Have you seen how often they have guest pastors? Those poor guys are obviously overworked.

    I read how little many of these guys actually work….I should have stayed on church staff….it was almost stealing money then….and that was 30+ years ago….

  72. Melody wrote:

    I have cried more this week over that hardness of heart than anything.

    Yes, this captures my sentiment as well. Anger and frustration, sure. But more, just a deep sadness that men who claim to be leaders in Christ’s name are so hard of heart.

  73. BL wrote:

    , useful in promoting future and ongoing resistance in the attendees against any exposure to facts or truths regarding CJ that they might encounter on the internet.
    This was purpose of the ‘joke’.

    Excellent point. The mean “joke” is a technique that is recognized by therapists as one used by verbal/emotional abusers. Mohler gets to get his laughs, and take a jab at victims and defenders on blogs, but retains some plausible deniability amongst his followers because he didn’t actually say the words ” Victims and their defenders on watchblogs.” He can say if confronted that he was “just joking” about “all the stuff on the internet these days” and pretend he wasn’t referring to the actual content Google would pull up about Mahaney in a cursory search. He gets a vicious dig in at the victims, upholds the martyrdom of his BFF Mahaney, gets a little ego petting from the laughter, and gets to accuse any who take him to task for it as “over-reacting.” Classic move.

    Here’s the thing, though. Let’s pretend for the sake of argument (not because it’s credible) that Mahaney actually knew nothing about any of the abuse or cover-up. Wouldn’t a true pastor’s heart go out to the victims and their families? Wouldn’t he want to comfort them? Wouldn’t the heart of a true shepherd be to first bind-up the broken hearts among his sheep and if he got mistakenly bitten by one who thought he was a bad guy, take it in stride? Wouldn’t a real shepherd feel responsibility that it happened on his watch even if he had no direct knowledge? And that is where the rub is to me. Even if he was walking around in a sound-proof bubble and truly knew nothing, I have not read one thing that indicated any care in any form for those who suffered sexual abuse. And given that there have been actual convictions, there is no wiggle room of “Well, it’s he said/she said.” Instead of caring for victims, he’s become the martyr. Also a classic move.

  74. Deb wrote:

    We put an awful lot of time into documenting what we post.  Where have we unfairly connected the dots between Mahaney and others? 

    Sorry, Deb, but pointing out examples of the Mutual Admiration Society joking about child sex abuse and promoting a failed minister is not “connecting the dots”. That is like saying an article documenting the Alps is “connecting the dots”. 😀

  75. Abi Miah wrote:

    Here’s the thing, though. Let’s pretend for the sake of argument (not because it’s credible) that Mahaney actually knew nothing about any of the abuse or cover-up.

    Ok, let’s pretend. I am the Man for my company, and if this happened in my work place I would be immediately fired. Because the boss is supposed to know if there is serial child predation in his company, and to not know is the very definition of gross negligence and wonton endangerment (literally, that is the statute under which such cases have been tried in my state).

  76. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    I have been told that Bob Kauflin and Jeff Purswell are both on the payroll of the denomination, not the local church.

    But clearly, 5 pastors is not near enough. Have you seen how often they have guest pastors? Those poor guys are obviously overworked

    Kauflin has some sort of arrangement with SBTS’s worshp music program. It is all secretive as SBTS operates as a closed system now.

    The hotel church cannot support that many pastors and those guys are used to upper middle class incomes. Some of them bought 4-500,00 dollar homes here which is a lot of house here.

    Some of that money might come from the T4G conference business. Some from the SBC as a “church plant”.

  77. Lydia wrote:

    @ js:
    Unfair association? The time for an “extreme” response to this is waaay past. They are words not tortured children. What is “extreme” is violating innocent Children and those who protect such things.

    If you went to T4G knowing of the SGM situation then you helped line their pockets. This is my opinion. Most won’t agree with me and are much nicer about it but they allow me to state my opinion.

    At what point do you draw a line on pure evil and those who excuse it with platitudes? Can you not for one minute imagine the horror and confusion a child goes through to be violated by someone they trusted? And then have other trusted adults side with their torturer?

    The time is here to speak of this in real terms.

    I am speaking in real terms and the time is long past for someone to stand up for the children AND against the extremism of some bloggers. That is not about platitudes or being nice. It is about separating fact from fiction and calling people to account for what they have actually done rather than what we imagine them to have done. It is about acknowledging sin without tarnishing whole movements of people or whole theological systems. It’s about not using the victims to advance my grievances against a particular strain of Christendom. None of this, none, means I don’t care about children.

  78. Todd Wilhelm was right to put that “Beatlemania” clip in his post. I was amazed at two things as I surveyed the #T4G2016 hashtag during the conference. First was the level of gushing going on from attendees. Second was how the speakers were like a Greatest Hits compilation. I can’t think of anyone who spoke who wasn’t a bigwig in the Neo-Calvinism movement. And there were thousands of guys there, not a few of whom probably wished they weren’t up on the stage.

  79. Deb wrote:

    js wrote:

    Many times I have come here it has been because of matters of theology or matters of unfair association. When everything gets linked to cj, even if he has nothing to do with it, as so often happens in the comments and sometimes in posts, I will call it out. Not because I love cj but because it is just unfair and such bias compromises the good that is done through blogs like this.

    Could you please provide a specific example or two when this occurred? Such a sweeping statement is not very helpful. 

    We put an awful lot of time into documenting what we post.  Where have we unfairly connected the dots between Mahaney and others? 

    The first one that comes to mind was the John Piper, duck dynasty, Peter wagner article. Tenuous associations at best. There are others I feel fall into this category but I will have to go back and look for others. More often, as I said, it is the contentious who inevitably come back around to cj, Mohler, dever or Piper, even if the op is not related to them.

  80. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Deb wrote:

    We put an awful lot of time into documenting what we post.  Where have we unfairly connected the dots between Mahaney and others? 

    Sorry, Deb, but pointing out examples of the Mutual Admiration Society joking about child sex abuse and promoting a failed minister is not “connecting the dots”. That is like saying an article documenting the Alps is “connecting the dots”.

    Always ready to assume the worst. Well done. I am not your enemy.

  81. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Abi Miah wrote:

    Here’s the thing, though. Let’s pretend for the sake of argument (not because it’s credible) that Mahaney actually knew nothing about any of the abuse or cover-up.

    Ok, let’s pretend. I am the Man for my company, and if this happened in my work place I would be immediately fired. Because the boss is supposed to know if there is serial child predation in his company, and to not know is the very definition of gross negligence and wonton endangerment (literally, that is the statute under which such cases have been tried in my state).

    Serious question. Would this have been the case twenty five years ago? Has the law churned on this in recent years?

  82. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Abi Miah wrote:

    Here’s the thing, though. Let’s pretend for the sake of argument (not because it’s credible) that Mahaney actually knew nothing about any of the abuse or cover-up.

    Ok, let’s pretend. I am the Man for my company, and if this happened in my work place I would be immediately fired. Because the boss is supposed to know if there is serial child predation in his company, and to not know is the very definition of gross negligence and wonton endangerment (literally, that is the statute under which such cases have been tried in my state).

    Right after the big scandal finally reached past the blogosphere, Mohler planted a story (I mean within one day!) with the local religion reporter at the time, Peter King, quoting Mohler about Mahaney’s strong leadership of SGM and the bloggers just don’t like it. I could not figure out the strategy of that. A gesture toward Mahaney? To point his followers. too? Now I see it as trying to save Mahaney at SGM. But he still had to flee.

    A year or so later, the story was gone. It was backfiring.

    If Mohler speaks here, they listen. He manipulated.

  83. Quote: Until about 25 years ago, I thought that Christians, while sinners, didn’t do the *big* sins. I never imagined respected Christians being caught in child sex abuse cover up, laughing about child sex abuse allegations, etc.”

    Are they Christians?

    1 John 3:10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

    1 John 4:7 & 8: Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

  84. Melody wrote:

    I can’t believe we have to spell out what the scandal is. Child. Sex. Abuse.

    “DUDE! YOU! HAVE! SEX! WITH! CHILDREN!”
    — Kyle (or was it Stan?) from South Park, “Cartman joins NAMBLA” episode

    Context (from memory):
    PEDOS BEING ARRESTED: “Why Us?”
    KYLE: “DUDE! YOU! HAVE! SEX! WITH! CHILDREN!”
    PEDOS: “True Love, Born This Way…”
    KYLE: “DUDE! YOU! HAVE! SEX! WITH! CHILDREN!”
    PEDOS: “Love, Love, Love, You Want to Do It Too…”
    KYLE: “DUDE! YOU! HAVE! SEX! WITH! CHILDREN!”
    PEDOS: “Pity Me Pity Me Pity Me, Didn’t Choose to Be Born This Way…”
    KYLE: “DUDE! YOU! HAVE! SEX! WITH! CHILDREN!”
    PEDOS: “God Made Us This Way…”
    KYLE: “DUDE! YOU! HAVE! SEX! WITH! CHILDREN!”

  85. K.D. wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    @ js:

    If you went to T4G knowing of the SGM situation then you helped line their pockets. This is my opinion.

    I must agree…

    I personally didn’t go to t4g, in part because of Mahaney.

  86. js wrote:

    It’s about not using the victims to advance my grievances against a particular strain of Christendom.

    And that is exactly how your gurus at T4G want you to think.

  87. mirele wrote:

    we’ve got a crisis where the largest religious university in the region stands accused of wanting to throw out a young woman who was sexually assaulted–for honor code violations.

    This reminds me of the quote from Golda Meir, the former Israeli prime minister, who responded to the proposal that women be put under home curfew because of a series of rapes, and she replied that it was the men who were committing the rapes so they should be required to stay at home not the women.

  88. @ js:
    Sorry I assumefy. Your comment sounded like you were there and heard them speak. You must have listened on line.

    Good for you.

  89. js wrote:

    I am speaking in real terms and the time is long past for someone to stand up for the children AND against the extremism of some bloggers.

    So you’re planning on gutting the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution? Good luck with that.

  90. @ mirele:
    Thank you for letting us know about this story. I am still planning on doing a post about you when this T4G settles down.

  91. js wrote:

    Not because I love cj but because it is just unfair and such bias compromises the good that is done through blogs like this.

    I really don’t understand why CJ & Co. weren’t arrested and prosecuted for conspiracy, obstruction of justice, intimidating witnesses, and a variety of other crimes related to covering up the sexual abuse of children at church. As times change, hopefully we’ll see “pastors” like this get their just desserts: prison time.

  92. js wrote:

    K.D. wrote:
    Lydia wrote:
    @ js:
    If you went to T4G knowing of the SGM situation then you helped line their pockets. This is my opinion.
    I must agree…
    I personally didn’t go to t4g, in part because of Mahaney.

    So, you’re okay with Mohler?

  93. Lydia wrote:

    @ js:
    Sorry I assumefy. Your comment sounded like you were there and heard them speak. You must have listened on line.

    Good for you.

    I listened to Dever, MacArthur and one of the panels online.

  94. js wrote:

    I am speaking in real terms and the time is long past for someone to stand up for the children AND against the extremism of some bloggers.

    Again, could you be specific? Which bloggers are being extremist?

  95. K.D. wrote:

    js wrote:

    K.D. wrote:
    Lydia wrote:
    @ js:
    If you went to T4G knowing of the SGM situation then you helped line their pockets. This is my opinion.
    I must agree…
    I personally didn’t go to t4g, in part because of Mahaney.

    So, you’re okay with Mohler?

    Mohler is not my favorite but he would not be a factor in my sitting out a conference.

  96.   __

    Mahaney Watch : “This ‘Denial’ Business Has Gotten Really Bad?”

    hmmm…

    SBTS’s Albert Mohler has certainily shown the (SBC) Baptist church world how ‘nefarious’ his denial and promotion has become. 

    huh?

    Exoling the praises of Mahaney, and rendering a prominent place at the 2016 T4G Conference for a ‘pastor’ who’s actions, although they have been thoroughly ‘disclosed’ by a class action case suit in the State of Maryland (and now another case pending court trial and deliberated verdict), are not considered by ‘most’ if not all of those Neo-Calvinist who host or attend or the Christian book publishers that support this anual T4G confrence with their materials.

    What?

    Q. What is wrong with the members of this 501(c)3 religious Neo-Calvinist movement?

    Skreeeeeeeeeetch !

    This is seriously ‘calloused’ behavior by any definition.

    Bump.

    Good Folks you might want to take ‘caution’ and  ‘beware’ of this 501(c)3 Neo-Calvinist ‘movement’ (if you are not already…) and stay ‘clear’ of it’s ‘local 501(c)3 churches’ and other Neo-Calvinist 501(c)3 non-profit organization(s) as well.

    Better to be ‘safe’ than sorry?

    Krash !

    (Ask The multitude of victims…)

    (sadface)

    Sopy

  97. Sopwith wrote:

    Is the former SGM Maryland flagship, CLC continuing the ‘pattern’ of treating sexual abuse victims as if they are no longer ‘good standng members’ worthy of assistance or court representation; contnuing a fourty year long standing ‘documented’ pattern of – favor the child sexual abuser, shun the victim(s) and their parent(s)?

    The fact that the church is actively supporting Larry Caffery while the victim stands alone says to me that, despite adding some window dressing about “having a leaning toward the victim” nothing has changed but the window dressing.

    If Paul thought that a man who was living with his father’s wife should be put outside the church and left to the devil, what would he say about a man who practices the sexual violation of little children? Would he say to stay by his side and support him and agitate for leniency from the authorities for such a criminal?

  98. js wrote:

    It is about acknowledging sin without tarnishing whole movements of people or whole theological systems.

    Those persons who insist on supporting and promoting Mahaney tarnished themselves. Every person who made a choice to ignore the protestors as they walked past and every person who laughed -who took vicarious part- in Al Mohler’s mocking joke tarnished themselves. They tarnished their own movement.

  99. Bridget wrote:

    Mocking people who are standing up for victims is not much different than mocking victims. JS seems to miss this completely. Victims often depend on others to speak publicly for them as it is difficult to speak out when you have been abused. AL Mohler and JS, alike seem to have little understanding of abuse and recovery from abuse.

    js wrote:

    It is quite different if you believe much of what the advocates of the victims are saying is wrong. If muffler believes cj if innocent of most or all of the charges then he would naturally see a distinction between the victims and their advocates, seeing the latter as worthy of critique.

    No.

    Mohler is not making, and does not make, a distinction between the victims and their online advocates, contrary to your assertion above.

    Because in Mohler’s world – it appears that there are no known child victims of sexual abuse in churches.

    I have searched Mohler’s website and have not been able to locate anything written by him addressing child sex abuse and sex abuse in churches, beyond using the Penn State scandal as the launching pad for an open letter to the Southern Seminary community regarding mandatory reporting.

    Articles/references on the:

    Penn State scandal? Check.

    Dennis Hastert scandal? Check.

    Michael Jackson scandal? Check.

    Jimmy Savile scandal? Check.

    Catholic Church scandal? Check.

    Also articles/references on how safe from sexual abuse are children:

    At the library? Check

    In broken or combined families? Check.

    When bio dad is absent from family? Check.

    When mom works? Check.

    Perhaps you can point me to anything that he has said or written regarding child sex abuse in churches, advocating for those children while addressing how these were handled by church leadership?

    Like he did in all the above referenced Mohler writings?

    Also helpful, would be anything that he has said or written that expresses his concern for the sexually abused children, while at the same time he specifically addresses his disagreement/s with their online advocates.

    Either or these things would give some support to your above assertion.

    .

  100. js wrote:

    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
    Abi Miah wrote:
    Here’s the thing, though. Let’s pretend for the sake of argument (not because it’s credible) that Mahaney actually knew nothing about any of the abuse or cover-up.
    Ok, let’s pretend. I am the Man for my company, and if this happened in my work place I would be immediately fired. Because the boss is supposed to know if there is serial child predation in his company, and to not know is the very definition of gross negligence and wonton endangerment (literally, that is the statute under which such cases have been tried in my state).
    Serious question. Would this have been the case twenty five years ago? Has the law churned on this in recent years?

    This part specifically.

    “Child abuse captured the country’s attention again in 1962, when an article appearing in the Journal of the American Medical Association described symptoms of child abuse and deemed child abuse to be medically diagnosable. Within 10 years, every state had statutes known as “mandatory reporting” laws. Mandatory reporting laws require certain professionals, such as doctors and teachers, to report suspected child abuse to the state child protective services agency or other proper authorities. A 1974 federal law, the Child Abuse Prevention & Treatment Act (CAPTA), further bolstered efforts to eliminate child abuse by funding programs to help individuals identify and report child abuse and to provide shelter and other protective services to victims. However, child abuse continues despite these and subsequent child abuse prevention laws.”

  101. siteseer wrote:

    If Paul thought that a man who was living with his father’s wife should be put outside the church and left to the devil, what would he say about a man who practices the sexual violation of little children? Would he say to stay by his side and support him and agitate for leniency from the authorities for such a criminal?

    Excellent comment!

  102. js wrote:

    the time is long past for someone to stand up for the children AND against the extremism of some bloggers.

    Which bloggers?

    What examples of extremism?

    I have no doubt that such exists on the internet, but by posting your assertion here, it appears that you are accusing TWW of being extremist bloggers.

    Is that your intention?

    js wrote:

    It is about separating fact from fiction and calling people to account for what they have actually done rather than what we imagine them to have done. It is about acknowledging sin without tarnishing whole movements of people or whole theological systems.

    “calling people to account for what they have actually done”

    This would be a good place for you to call out those bloggers and what they have actually done – rather than tarnishing whole groups of people or whole internetical systems (i.e. blogging).

    .

  103. js wrote:

    The first one that comes to mind was the John Piper, duck dynasty, Peter wagner article. Tenuous associations at best. There are others I feel fall into this category but I will have to go back and look for others. More often, as I said, it is the contentious who inevitably come back around to cj, Mohler, dever or Piper, even if the op is not related to them.

    Thanks for responding. Unlike some websites that moderate comments and delete those that are not affirming, we allow almost all comments. Only those that violate our rules of the road are banned.

    Are you suggesting that we further screen our comments?  There aren't enough hours in the day…

    Here is the post you made reference to if some of our readers would like to check it out.

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/04/28/john-piper-and-duck-dynasty-celebrity-endorsements-validate-the-demonology-of-peter-wagner-and-the-arc/

  104. siteseer wrote:

    The fact that the church is actively supporting Larry Caffery while the victim stands alone says to me that, despite adding some window dressing about “having a leaning toward the victim” nothing has changed but the window dressing.

    We had a CLC member comment on my blog yesterday and she said:

    “CLC appears to be following their statement on how to handle sex abuse. Different pastors are assigned to minister to victim and accuser with 90% more care being provided to the victim. They have a calling to pastor the souls of men, regardless of what they do.”

    I hope she is right. Whether a church has an obligation to support Caffery in this situation is hard for me to say. Historically CLC has not done right by the victim. Time will tell.

  105. Bridget wrote:

    @ Bridget:
    Why wouldn’t pastors feel a higher moral responsibility to care for victims of abuse than anyone else?

    These guys wouldn’t know ” pastoral care” if it bit them on the rear….

  106. js wrote:

    Would this have been the case twenty five years ago?

    (1) If not, so what? Is there moral equivalency between the secular law and scripture? Is something all right regardless of what scripture says if nobody has written it into the secular law? We are talking about preachers here. Is that what they are supposed to be thinking, that the law trumps scripture?

    (2) And also if not, then here is ‘what.’ If the law has changed but the church has not, if the law is more protective of children while the church is not, it says that the law is more christ like than the church. Now that is a pretty picture.

  107. js wrote:

    I am speaking in real terms and the time is long past for someone to stand up for the children AND against the extremism of some bloggers. That is not about platitudes or being nice. It is

    I am not understanding what you mean by "extremism of some bloggers". Can you give some examples?

    There seems to be a lean toward moral equivalency and sin leveling in that comment.

  108. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    Different pastors are assigned to minister to victim and accuser with 90% more care being provided to the victim.

    How on earth do they track such a measurement?

  109. Lydia wrote:

    The hotel church cannot support that many pastors and those guys are used to upper middle class incomes. Some of them bought 4-500,00 dollar homes here which is a lot of house here.

    In addition to pissing-off the Almighty, simple economics will also help to bring down the system of religious despotism that these guys have created.

  110. @ okrapod:

    Just look at what happened in Pennsylvania legislature earlier this week. The House got rid of the statute of limitations for criminal cases involving child sex abuse. I hope the Senate will follow suit.

  111. Muff Potter wrote:

    simple economics will also help to bring down the system of religious despotism that these guys have created.

    I made a vow NEVER to buy an ESV Bible. As I explained earlier, I bought The Cross Centered Life back in 2006 before I ever knew anything about Mahaney or the Neo-Cal movement. I do confess to buying a very cheap second-hand copy of Dever's 9Marks of a Healthy Church.

  112. Deb wrote:

    More often, as I said, it is the contentious who inevitably come back around to cj, Mohler, dever or Piper, even if the op is not related to them

    The four men you’ve cited have done an incalculable amount of damage to the lives of many upstanding Christians. They have each formed their own Protestant papacies, crowning themselves as popes in their own churches and their “yes-men”/associate pastors/elders as “cardinals”. They even do excommunications and shunnings believing they hold the “power of the keys” to pronounce judgment on anyone who dares to disagree.

  113. The more I read from the pen of pastors, the more discouraged I become for child victims.

    In this explanation, Barber includes sexual sins of consenting adults with the predators of children while factionalizing the problem of “sexual sin”, in general. Read the whole thing. They just cannot get it. It is extremely discouraging. Here is a snippet:

    “Apart from having read some positive examples of what to do, among those church leaders who face the nightmare of having discovered sexual misconduct in their churches, the only ones who know exactly what to do are those who want to do the wrong thing. Trying to cover up the sin and avoid the scandal isn’t all that hard to figure out; knowing the right way to address it rather than cover it up requires competency in a dozen skills that aren’t taught in seminary. Let’s demystify it and standardize a good approach to addressing sexual predation in our churches.”

    There is no mystery process to follow when it comes to adults seeking sexual pleasure from children.

    http://sbcvoices.com/preface-to-a-resolution/

  114. Lydia wrote:

    js wrote:

    I am speaking in real terms and the time is long past for someone to stand up for the children AND against the extremism of some bloggers. That is not about platitudes or being nice. It is

    I am not understanding what you mean by “extremism of some bloggers”. Can you give some examples?

    There seems to be a lean toward moral equivalency and sin leveling in that comment.

    You can’t use the moral equivalency argument to avoid dealing with the second part of the sentence. Just because child abuse is wise doesn’t mean we’re off the hook for the other.

  115. dee wrote:

    Thank you for letting us know about this story. I am still planning on doing a post about you when this T4G settles down.

    It’s OK–I really don’t need a story about me. I’d rather it be about Mark Driscoll thinking he’s going to have “business as usual” in Scottsdale. Warren Throckmorton has done a super job keeping up with Driscoll’s shenanigans.

    What’s weird is that it looks like Driscoll is picking up just where he left off in Seattle. He’s currently doing a Bible study on 1 John. Interestingly, while he was on “hiatus” in August/September 2014, that’s what his other pastors were preaching about, but it was apparently in Driscoll’s name.

    http://marshill.se/marshill/media/1st-john-love-one-another/jesus-best-friend (this link goes to an archive of Mars Hill)

    Really, it is NOT business as usual.

  116. okrapod wrote:

    js wrote:

    Would this have been the case twenty five years ago?

    (1) If not, so what? Is there moral equivalency between the secular law and scripture? Is something all right regardless of what scripture says if nobody has written it into the secular law? We are talking about preachers here. Is that what they are supposed to be thinking, that the law trumps scripture?

    (2) And also if not, then here is ‘what.’ If the law has changed but the church has not, if the law is more protective of children while the church is not, it says that the law is more christ like than the church. Now that is a pretty picture.

    I was just curious. You are reading way to much into my question. I am not excusing anything, just trying to understand cultural and legal changes.

  117. js wrote:

    okrapod wrote:

    js wrote:

    Would this have been the case twenty five years ago?

    (1) If not, so what? Is there moral equivalency between the secular law and scripture? Is something all right regardless of what scripture says if nobody has written it into the secular law? We are talking about preachers here. Is that what they are supposed to be thinking, that the law trumps scripture?

    (2) And also if not, then here is ‘what.’ If the law has changed but the church has not, if the law is more protective of children while the church is not, it says that the law is more christ like than the church. Now that is a pretty picture.

    I was just curious. You are reading way to much into my question. I am not excusing anything, just trying to understand cultural and legal changes.

    In other words trying to understand how far the church is behind the culture in this issue of sexual abuse.

  118. Lydia wrote:

    Barber includes sexual sins of consenting adults with the predators of children while factionalizing the problem of “sexual sin”, in general.

    Yes, he sort of does, though I think it is clear when he says sexual predation he is not talking about consenting sex between adults.

    And yes, the matter of predation on the young is different in that it is not just immoral but also illegal and also carries a mental health diagnosis. It ought not be that hard to have a plan and enforce it in the face of all that.

    But and also, the tolerating of sexual predation of the young is playing out in a church culture which tolerates and trivializes and ignores all sorts of sexual sin in general. Looking at the frequency of just the two of adultery and adult porn the problem is widespread. Not to mention a whole house full of stuff that the churches have come to either accept or ignore (perhaps rightly so sometimes and perhaps not) and the question is whether to re-think all of those decisions or just some and if so which.

    One problem is that in sola scripture churches just looking at scripture alone on some things leads to conclusions that some people would not be comfortable with.

  119. Velour wrote:

    Deb wrote:

    More often, as I said, it is the contentious who inevitably come back around to cj, Mohler, dever or Piper, even if the op is not related to them

    The four men you’ve cited have done an incalculable amount of damage to the lives of many upstanding Christians. They have each formed their own Protestant papacies, crowning themselves as popes in their own churches and their “yes-men”/associate pastors/elders as “cardinals”. They even do excommunications and shunnings believing they hold the “power of the keys” to pronounce judgment on anyone who dares to disagree.

    First, even if what you say is all true (and I don’t believe it is) it isn’t right to bring them in for criticism at times when they aren’t related to the article at hand. Second, if watchbloggers existed in the twentieth century I guarantee you that you would have had websites devoted to critique of many the big name preachers of the day. Today if you type in the name of almost any well-known preacher you will get critique sites in the first few hits. I don’t think most of these men are any worse than those of other denominations or those of the past. I think they put themselves out there more and they live in a world where all their words are parsed often by people who don’t have a very high opinion of them in the first place.

  120. @ js:

    Good to hear that. I cannot read your mind so therefore I did not accuse you of anything. And yes I did take it a step further; it is called conversation.

    Nevertheless, the issue of the law vs the scripture is a genuine issue and needs addressed. My-father-the-lawyer and I fought over this for years. And now with some things going on in the secular arena in this nation we see this issue flared up in many places over several issues. IMO before it is over most of us will have to make some difficult decisions based on this dichotomy.

  121. dee wrote:

    @ Divorce Minister:
    They have to laugh because to take it seriously would mean they would have to listen to the media investigation, read the truth behind the lawsuit, and confront the pain of the victims. They would rather take the money from one another and present their big shots in the kingdom of God.
    One day they will learn that the true celebrities are those who suffered child sex abuse and who were kicked to the curb by their church are the true celebrities.

    Sounds about “right.” Come, Lord Jesus, come!

  122. js wrote:

    don’t think most of these men are any worse than those of other denominations or those of the past.

    I think they’re a pretty arrogant, self-centered, power-hungry bunch. I used to respect them, until I got to experience the damage done by their teachings to countless good, upstanding Christians.

    These “pastors” are unteachable and don’t listen, and correct for, justifiable criticisms of their teachings and the harms caused.

  123. Deb wrote:

    js wrote:

    I am speaking in real terms and the time is long past for someone to stand up for the children AND against the extremism of some bloggers.

    Again, could you be specific? Which bloggers are being extremist?

    Je suis sick of this. Here’s some extremism for you: I hate political spin in God’s church. Oh and I never thought my political studies at uni would come in handy to analyze a statement from TGC for deception. That grieves me.

    This whole thing about blogger extremism is silly.

    People are angry and rightfully so at the unrepentant wickedness of these leaders. They need to understand that anger is a healthy response to their wickedness and repent now, not get away with it again and again. We must bear in mind the topic, before we judge the bloggers for extremism.

    Which is more extreme: to tacitly laugh at victims protesting outside, some of whom had their abusers held lawfully accountable yet were smeared in church for doing so? Or to call sin sin?

    Consider what many bloggers have been through shouting until they are hoarse to be heard. Then you may understand if some days they sound a little extreme in their hurt and disgust at the corrupt defiling God’s church.

    I have updated this post, admittedly, I’m not much a of blogger myself these days, but here’s my contribution:
    http://britgirlusaborn.blogspot.com/2014/05/do-christians-care.html

    Extremism. CHILD SEX ABUSE COVERUP. Smh.

  124. js wrote:

    I think they put themselves out there more and they live in a world where all their words are parsed often by people who don’t have a very high opinion of them in the first place.

    Let me focus “in the first place.” When we started writing this blog, the only two people we had developed some opinions on was CJ Mahaney and Mark Driscoll. And so we wrote. It appears that our concerns were correct all those years ago.

    Since that time, we have developed opinions on people based on what they write in public along with what happens to people in their church. For example, I didn’t know Matt Chandler from a hole in the wall. However, since dealing with his church in the Karen Hinckley situation, I have some opinions. Oh yeah, and after he called that guy a “narcissistic zero.”

    We came into this this business in the first place without many preconceived ideas except that child sex abuse and domestic violence is very, very bad. Now who would disagree with that.

  125. js wrote:

    trying to understand how far the church is behind the culture in this issue of sexual abuse.

    The church is not even in the same ballpark as the world. In the secular world, most people understand that child sex abuse is a criminal matter. Many in the church blow it off by saying it is a sin-no worse than other sins. And if it is handled in the church, Jesus will take away the issue. Many leaders in the church think they are smarter than the world. Many eschew psychology and, in so doing, put many in their church at great risk.

    This past week, a couple of members at CLC went to the preliminary hearing for the pedophile just arrested from their church. They told the perp they were there for him and ignored the victim- his teen child. That is what is going on with this crowd.

  126. okrapod wrote:

    @ js:Good to hear that. I cannot read your mind so therefore I did not accuse you of anything. And yes I did take it a step further; it is called conversation.

    Nevertheless, the issue of the law vs the scripture is a genuine issue and needs addressed. My-father-the-lawyer and I fought over this for years. And now with some things going on in the secular arena in this nation we see this issue flared up in many places over several issues. IMO before it is over most of us will have to make some difficult decisions based on this dichotomy.

    Having worked with at risk children both in UK and briefly in US, I can tell you that the world is way ahead of the church in how it views child protection. What is so horrifyingly disheartening to me is that many people in T4G circles are quite ignorant of abuse dynamics and lack discernment of character, as evidenced in the character of the men they promote.

    The problem is that the world is now watching all of this and is entirely put off by us for not being more angry and grieved by it.

    I have had people of no faith contact me to say thank you for being an actual Christian, because I actually talk about it. Many Christians won’t because they don’t want to make the church look bad.

    I can tell you my unbelieving friends think we look bad because we aren’t dealing openly and transparently with this already socially unacceptable sinful crime, not because we get angry or blog about it- they respect that.

    That evangelicals are so afraid of dealing with evil is actually counterproductive to their promotion of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    That some within the evangelical church are so sensitive to grief and anger as synonymous with sin or gossip, is making it very difficult for people to deal directly with issues in a Christlike way. This is why the true people of God need to follow Christ, not these cowardly T4G celebrities who are so scared of losing position they won’t deal with their own sin, let alone the sins among them.

    What is most sad is that many Christians will refuse to listen to what I am saying because it is too emotional. I would exhort them to review Scripture to see how Christ responded to the corruption in the centers of worship of His own day.

  127. @ dee:
    This. Exactly. ^^ In the secular education profession I’d have been fired on the spot if I’d ever treated an allegation of child sex abuse the way SGM did.

  128. js wrote:

    AND against the extremism of some bloggers. That is not about platitudes or being nice. It is about separating fact from fiction and calling people to account for what they have actually done rather than what we imagine them to have done.

    Here is the deal. We provide links to everything that we claim. That is why we have been around so long. Now you, on the other hand, make statements and do not link to anything that we can look at an discuss in a grown up manner. So, unless you have some things for us to discuss, you are just another commenter who finds it easy to take potshots without any proof whatsoever. Try some links the next time.

  129. @ js:

    JS-You showed up under the Nate Sparks’ review of Ruth Tucker’s book. Since that time you seem to have been pushing your agenda that the neocals are great guys who are doing the right things. I notice that most of your comments express your opinion without providing links to prove your point of view.

    I think you would help your cause if you would do so because it seems to me that you might be here to defend the guys who have some problems in standing up against child sex abuse and domestic violence which I am sure that you are not.

    Besides, you are from North Carolina and you should be kind to your fellow citizens. Wr know quite bit about what is happening in this state and as you must know, things are not particularly rosy.

  130. @ Dan:
    You have it, Dan. If I recall correctly, Mohler worked for the “liberal” president doing fundraising for the seminary before he left. Did you ever hear his conversion story to his “no girlz allowed” position?

    Then he returned with power and proceeded to clean house dissing his former mentors. He saw where the wind was blowing and where the opportunities were.

  131. dee wrote:

    js wrote:

    AND against the extremism of some bloggers. That is not about platitudes or being nice. It is about separating fact from fiction and calling people to account for what they have actually done rather than what we imagine them to have done.

    Here is the deal. We provide links to everything that we claim. That is why we have been around so long. Now you, on the other hand, make statements and do not link to anything that we can look at an discuss in a grown up manner. So, unless you have some things for us to discuss, you are just another commenter who finds it easy to take potshots without any proof whatsoever. Try some links the next time.

    So what actual evidence do you have that cj mahaney covered up sexual abuse?

  132. dee wrote:

    js wrote:

    AND against the extremism of some bloggers. That is not about platitudes or being nice. It is about separating fact from fiction and calling people to account for what they have actually done rather than what we imagine them to have done.

    Here is the deal. We provide links to everything that we claim. That is why we have been around so long. Now you, on the other hand, make statements and do not link to anything that we can look at an discuss in a grown up manner. So, unless you have some things for us to discuss, you are just another commenter who finds it easy to take potshots without any proof whatsoever. Try some links the next time.

    Your headline on Darin Patrick wolf not be there if he were not tgc or acts 29. If he were in arc out some other group he wouldn’t get a mention here.

  133. js wrote:

    You can’t use the moral equivalency argument to avoid dealing with the second part of the sentence. Just because child abuse is wise doesn’t mean we’re off the hook for the other.

    I don’t play the kill the messenger game anymore. Saying something like ‘AL Mohler is a jerk’ and the act of protecting predators who seek sexual pleasure from children… are NOT morally equivalent in a sane world.

    To say so is to desensitize us to evil. Which is exactly what has happened to so many pastors and followers.

    You know that tactic is often used on victims. As in, ‘They did not express themselves with grace’ or ‘their tone was bitter and angry’, etc. It is an old tactic. And most of us know why it is used.

  134. js wrote:

    So what actual evidence do you have that cj mahaney covered up sexual abuse?

    Just for clarity for the rest of us, what in your thinking does it take to qualify as a cover up in a matter of sexual abuse of a minor?

  135. Deb wrote:

    FIRST!!! 
    IS GOD SOVEREIGN OR WHAT??? (see below)
    On the same day that Al Mohler introduced C.J. Mahaney with his mocking words about the internet, the Pennsylvania House passed legislation eliminating the criminal statute of limitations in cases of child sex abuse. It now moves to the Senate.
    http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2016/04/12/pa-house-passes-child-sex-abuse-statute-of-limitations-bill/

    Whoah!!! Is it a foreshadowing? Possibly…very possibly…

  136. js wrote:

    You can’t use the moral equivalency argument to avoid dealing with the second part of the sentence.

    One cannot “avoid dealing” with something you have, as yet, failed to substantiate or specify with detail.

  137. @ js:
    C.J. Mahaney has been on the run in recent years. He fled to Capitol Hill Baptist Church. Then he moved SGM to Louisville to ‘cut down on expenses’. His brother-in-law testified in court that the CLC pastors failed to report a pedophile to the proper authorities. Mahaney was the head pastor for 27 years. And now another alleged victim has had the courage to come forward.

    Mahaney is far from being exonerated. Why in the world are guys like you so taken by him? I just don’t get it.

  138. js wrote:

    Your headline on Darin Patrick wolf not be there if he were not tgc or acts 29. If he were in arc out some other group he wouldn’t get a mention here.

    Are you asserting that TWW only headlines Acts29 & TGC?

  139. js wrote:

    Your headline on Darin Patrick wolf not be there if he were not tgc or acts 29. If he were in arc out some other group he wouldn’t get a mention here.

    ARC?

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/11/07/a-closer-look-at-pastors-in-the-arc/

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/11/05/building-the-arc-an-overview-of-this-church-planting-network/

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/06/26/personal-experiences-with-arcs-lifeway-church-of-milwaukee-wisconsin/

    That ARC? Or did you have some other ARC in mind?

  140. Christa Brown commented over at Voices. I had forgotten all about the former SBC President, Frank Page ,referring to those who speak out:

    “Frank Page himself wrote a column in the Florida Baptist Witness in which he referred to those speaking out about clergy sex abuse as being “nothing more than opportunistic persons.”

  141. Lydia wrote:

    Did you ever hear his conversion story to his “no girlz allowed” position?

    No, I never heard the story of his conversion experience. But, at some point he became a reformed inerrantist and literalist. Whether his conversion was real or contrived, his change in theology was rather fortuitous for Dr. Mohler. Needless to say, he has a platform that he would not have been granted otherwise.

  142. That’s actually untrue from js too-I recall a post or two bout ARC if I am not mistaken. In any case, he is badly mistaken on much of his assertions.
    Would love to see some facts and links from him too.

    As for why many believe CJ covered up abuse-he knew about it according to several family members of victims.

    So there’s that. Then there’s Layman’s testimony and much concerning documentation about how Nate Moraies was known to SGM leadership and never reported, offending in likely five states. And he’s just one abuser out of fifteen or so alleged. He was convicted.

    Look-if those who love CJ refuse to listen to any evidence to the contrary of CJ’s pity-me narrative, they are willfully blind to the possibility he knew and participated in coverup.

    In any case, his own brazen determination to place himself in the center of his baby T4G, rather than humbly wait out the storm, suggests he really doesn’t get nor care how seriously the sex abuses that occurred under his watch affected fellow human beings let alone fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

    This doesn’t remind me at all of the God who humbled himself though He could have taken a lofty position because of who he is. CJ’s consistent behavior of deflection lends weight to the allegations.

    I tend to believe victims, but even if they were not all saying similar variations of the same story, as they are, the way this is playing out is very classic narc dynamics. Lots of flying monkeys.

    But as for “facts”: Nate Morales. SGM leadership team knew and more victims could have been avoided. If that’s not a cover up I don’t know what is.

    CJ could have exhibited true humility and leadership, taking responsibility for failures, given the topic of child sex abuse, but he refuses, wordlessly calling victims of convicted criminals liars and troublers of his ministry.

    That is all I need to know about his character to form an opinion on what he is capable of doing.

    @ BL:

  143. js wrote:

    So what actual evidence do you have that cj mahaney covered up sexual abuse?

    Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!
    Are you kidding?
    It’s all there, evidence and evidence and evidence.
    If you refuse to look at all the mass amounts of evidence given, that just means you refuse to look at it and acknowledge it for what it is.
    You refusing to acknowledge it’s existence doesn’t make that huge body of evidence disappear in a poof of your own disbelief. That’s not what walking by faith means. It doesn’t mean pretend things aren’t as they are. That’s just magical thinking.

    http://www.dictionary.com/browse/magical-thinking

  144. Lydia wrote:

    Christa Brown commented over at Voices. I had forgotten all about the former SBC President, Frank Page ,referring to those who speak out:

    “Frank Page himself wrote a column in the Florida Baptist Witness in which he referred to those speaking out about clergy sex abuse as being “nothing more than opportunistic persons.”

    Stuff like this makes me want to go hulk smash on people.

    It also makes me even more comfortable in my decision to ditch the baptist denom entirely until they get it together.

  145. @ Melody:

    Everything about these guys (cj, mohler etc) response to this shows over and over again that they don’t care about victims as much as they do their reputations. Their reputations would be easier to defend if they actually botherEd to PRETEND to care! That they can’t even do that honestly tells me everything I need to know about them. They are scum.

  146. There is one man (other than CJ) who I believe holds the key to CJ’s involvement in the cover-up of sexual abuse . . . Brent Detwiler.

    From what I understand, Detwiler was one of the four founders of SGM. He knew Mahaney intimately. He has hundreds of pages of e-mails and other documents regarding Mahaney. Detwiler began some years ago calling out Mahaney for his leadership failures and sins. Nowhere in these hundreds of pages do I see Detwiler link Mahaney to the covering up of sexual abuse. Detwiler went to great lengths to show the world that Mahaney was a poor leader and a deeply flawed and sinful man. Yet he did not divulge what would have been by far the most damning and serious charge Mahaney could have faced, the covering up of sexual abuse. And the abuse cases of Adams and Morales happened while Detwiler was still with SGM and long before his emails to Mahaney and company were leaked. Why does Detwiler have no information about Mahaney covering up sexual abuse in the information that was leaked? Detwiler knew CJ Mahaney inside and out, he seemed to know every flaw of the man, he documented it all over hundreds of pages, yet I can’t see where he goes after Mahoney on the cover-up. That is strange. Surely it was not out of loyalty.

    I can only come up with two possibilities . . . 1) Detwiler has proof that Mahaney was involved in the cover-up but will not divulge the information because he too was involved or 2) Detwiler has no evidence, which to me would seem to back up CJ’s assertion that he never participated in a cover-up.

    Maybe some of you have more information or can see other possibilities, but from my perspective Brent Detwiler is a key figure. The fact that he hasn’t released any damning proof, when he documented everything else so carefully and has it all published on his website, leads me to believe that despite all his other faults, maybe CJ was not involved in the cover-up.

  147. BL wrote:

    js wrote:
    Your headline on Darin Patrick wolf not be there if he were not tgc or acts 29. If he were in arc out some other group he wouldn’t get a mention here.
    ARC?
    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/11/07/a-closer-look-at-pastors-in-the-arc/
    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/11/05/building-the-arc-an-overview-of-this-church-planting-network/
    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/06/26/personal-experiences-with-arcs-lifeway-church-of-milwaukee-wisconsin/
    That ARC? Or did you have some other ARC in mind?

    Sure they’ve posted about ARC. I know TWW posts about a lot of groups. But if a secondary leader of ARC comparable to Patrick were found in similar circumstances I doubt he would get the headline at the top of the screen. There is a special focus on Neo-Cals here.

  148. Deb wrote:

    @ js:
    C.J. Mahaney has been on the run in recent years. He fled to Capitol Hill Baptist Church. Then he moved SGM to Louisville to ‘cut down on expenses’. His brother-in-law testified in court that the CLC pastors failed to report a pedophile to the proper authorities. Mahaney was the head pastor for 27 years. And now another alleged victim has had the courage to come forward.
    Mahaney is far from being exonerated. Why in the world are guys like you so taken by him? I just don’t get it.

    I am neither taken by him nor convinced that he is guilty. The various steps he has taken do not constitute an admission of guilt. There are various reasons he may have run.

  149. @ js:
    JS-no truth would be enough for you. You are a TROLL in my book. You are hijacking this thread. You should be ashamed of yourself but I am not convinced you are capable of being ashamed.

  150. js wrote:

    I was just curious. You are reading way to much into my question. I am not excusing anything, just trying to understand cultural and legal changes.

    Did you see my response to you here:

    Bridget wrote:

    js wrote:
    Serious question. Would this have been the case twenty five years ago? Has the law churned on this in recent years?
    Yes!
    http://family.findlaw.com/child-abuse/child-abuse-background-and-history.html

    And here:

    Bridget wrote:

    This part specifically.
    “Child abuse captured the country’s attention again in 1962, when an article appearing in the Journal of the American Medical Association described symptoms of child abuse and deemed child abuse to be medically diagnosable. Within 10 years, every state had statutes known as “mandatory reporting” laws. Mandatory reporting laws require certain professionals, such as doctors and teachers, to report suspected child abuse to the state child protective services agency or other proper authorities. A 1974 federal law, the Child Abuse Prevention & Treatment Act (CAPTA), further bolstered efforts to eliminate child abuse by funding programs to help individuals identify and report child abuse and to provide shelter and other protective services to victims. However, child abuse continues despite these and subsequent child abuse prevention laws.”

  151. Deb wrote:

    Dee,
    I’m 99.9% sure it’s Mahaney saying:
    “And that boys and girls is how you get invited back.”
    It occurs at the 9 minute mark:  http://www.sbts.edu/media/audio/fall2006/20061024mahaney.mp3
    Immediately afterwards, there’s that nauseating chuckle.

    I listened to the recording up to the laugh. That’s all I can take. He comes off like a stand-up comic. Nothing in those first 9 minutes points to Christ, and he’s at a Christian seminary. Just a lot of brown-nosing and manipulation.

  152. mot wrote:

    @ js:
    JS-no truth would be enough for you. You are a TROLL in my book. You are hijacking this thread. You should be ashamed of yourself but I am not convinced you are capable of being ashamed.

    I am not trolling but I am trying to wade into a highly emotional situation (and rightly so) to try to get at what really happened at SGM. It is obvious there were big problems with Mahaney’s leadership. I did not like the idea of him speaking at t4g and did not go this time in part because of his speaking. I do not know if his leadership problems are disqualifying. I am not close enough to the situation to know their true extent, the lengths to which he has tried to improve, etc. But I know at minimum it was unwise and damaging for him to reassume a lead role at t4g. I also know this . . . if there is evidence that he willingly covered up multiple instances of sexual abuse in the congregation where he was senior pastor over a period of years, that would be disqualifying. I have seen accusation and implication but I have not seen evidence. And the lack of words from Detwiler are most interesting of all. He would have no reason (unless he was involved too) to not divulge what he knew about what CJ knew. I could see CJ’s fellow pastors not blowing the whistle on him out of some twisted sense of loyalty, but Detwiler? If he had anything we’d know it. This lack of evidence doesn’t prove CJ’s innocence, but it does cause me to hesitate to assume his guilt.

  153. js wrote:

    Maybe some of you have more information or can see other possibilities, but from my perspective Brent Detwiler is a key figure. The fact that he hasn’t released any damning proof, when he documented everything else so carefully and has it all published on his website, leads me to believe that despite all his other faults, maybe CJ was not involved in the cover-up.

    Detwiler has stated that CJ did not inform him of the sexual abuse issues, maybe because CJ knew Brent would turn the perps over to the police. Brent was involved in one such issue in a church he pastored and he contacted the police.

  154. I was raised in the mid west and now live in Texas. When I was younger, there was a song we used to sing – “To be like Jesus, to be like Jesus. All I ask is to be like him. All through life’s journey from earth to glory, all I ask is to be like him”.

    I think these so called pastors, or ministers, or whatever they choose to call themselves forget this song. Jesus said in the Bible to suffer not the little children and to bring them unto him. These men are nothing like my Jesus.

  155. dee wrote:

    @ Melody:
    I so appreciate your comment her, Your Tweets and your work with the SGM victims Facebook group. I am so glad to see another warrior on the scene. We need you.

    Dee, can you give a link for that Facebook page? I haven’t been able to find it. Thanks.

  156. js wrote:

    BL wrote:

    Sure they’ve posted about ARC. I know TWW posts about a lot of groups. But if a secondary leader of ARC comparable to Patrick were found in similar circumstances I doubt he would get the headline at the top of the screen. There is a special focus on Neo-Cals here.

    I don’t agree that it’s true, but if it were, so what? Can a blog not have a focus? And if more of the commenters here have been negatively impacted by Neocal churches than by others, it’s natural that they would comment what has affected them personally.

  157. @ js:
    And that is the problem with insider whistleblowers. How else does information become known about operations in a closed system?

    Detwiler missed his calling because I have never seen such massuve archived and detailed documentation in all my life.

    None of this means Detwieler was not a Shepherding cult leader. But he paid a very high price: Financial ruin.

  158. mot wrote:

    @ js:
    Nothing is going to satisfy you. You are trying to change the subject.

    It is called deflection. Every tactic in the book has been thrown out by JS.

  159. Bridget wrote:

    Detwiler has stated that CJ did not inform him of the sexual abuse issues, maybe because CJ knew Brent would turn the perps over to the police. Brent was involved in one such issue in a church he pastored and he contacted the police.

    I did not know that.

  160. js wrote:

    if there is evidence that he willingly covered up multiple instances of sexual abuse in the congregation where he was senior pastor over a period of years, that would be disqualifying.

    Sorry js, but that statement is laughable! You need to spend some time, as we have, getting to know about the nuts and bolts of Sovereign Grace Ministries (as it was when Mahaney was 'Head Apostle'). No one could have disqualified him PERIOD!

  161. @ js:
    When you find a systemic problem of protecting child predators in ARC as there has been from SGM, please let us know so we can reach out to victims.

  162. Todd Wilhlem wrote:

    Janet wrote:
    I read the Darrin Patrick post
    Did you know that Darrin Patrick was scheduled to speak at the “Men are better than Women” (CBMw) pre-conference the day prior to T$G started? They must have done some quick behind-the-scenes work to reparir that leak in the dike. I have before and after screen shots!

    The under cover sleuth on the job!

  163. Mara wrote:

    @ dee:
    Thanks, Dee.
    I guess you and I are the only Rich Mullins fans on here. A pity.
    He was a giant in song-craft from a more sincere, down to earth, and eloquent time in Christian music.

    I’ve not heard much of his music, but what I have heard is a man with a deeply planted faith in Christ, who was able to put that faith to lyrics and music in a palpable way. In that way, Mullins is very much like Keith Green, a man who was able to articulate his faith in Christ with zeal and love.

  164. The theology that men are better than women (contrary to scripture) seems to be at their core and whatever happens to women and their children (contrary to scripture) also doesn’t seem to be important to them, nor do they seem interested in hearing about any of that.

    For js, where are examples of their stand against child abuse, domestic violence, crimes against the larger half of their congregations that are to be silent and subservient to the men folk and support of the victims?

  165. js wrote:

    I am not trolling but I am trying to wade into a highly emotional situation (and rightly so) to try to get at what really happened at SGM.

    Code: we are emotional but JS is just trying to be factual. Got it.

    JS, if you read all documents associated with this from sgmwikileaks, lawsuit, SGMsurvivors the acts of neo cal exonerating, AofR, fleeing to Dever, moving to Louisville and more, and STILL don’t see it, then there is nothing to discuss.

    “A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still”. No one here is going to convince you. Especially us ” emotional” types. :o)

  166. js wrote:

    But if a secondary leader of ARC comparable to Patrick were found in similar circumstances I doubt he would get the headline at the top of the screen. There is a special focus on Neo-Cals here.

    How did you decide that he was a ‘secondary’ leader?

    Chaplain of the St. Louis Cardinals.

    Author – multiple books and magazine articles.

    VP of Acts 29.

    TGC council member.

    How does any of that make him secondary?

  167. js wrote:

    There is a special focus on Neo-Cals here.

    They are just the big boys on the block now where the authoritarian problems have become systemic in the movement from Acts 29/Driscoll, SGM, Chandler and much more.

    Emergent, Tony Jones, has been a big topic here. As has Noble, Patterson, and Furtick. What passes for Christendom is a big nasty mess.

  168. Js many of us see Brent’s testimony as one source, not the whole picture. There are multiple sources that testify to CJ Mahaney knowing of their children’s abuse. The conviction of Nate Moraies and the testimony in court suggests his leadership team was involved in a child sex (ed.) abuse coverup. Your idea that we all base all our opinion on one source is unfounded.
    js wrote:

    There is one man (other than CJ) who I believe holds the key to CJ’s involvement in the cover-up of sexual abuse . . . Brent Detwiler.

    From what I understand, Detwiler was one of the four founders of SGM. He knew Mahaney intimately. He has hundreds of pages of e-mails and other documents regarding Mahaney. Detwiler began some years ago calling out Mahaney for his leadership failures and sins. Nowhere in these hundreds of pages do I see Detwiler link Mahaney to the covering up of sexual abuse. Detwiler went to great lengths to show the world that Mahaney was a poor leader and a deeply flawed and sinful man. Yet he did not divulge what would have been by far the most damning and serious charge Mahaney could have faced, the covering up of sexual abuse. And the abuse cases of Adams and Morales happened while Detwiler was still with SGM and long before his emails to Mahaney and company were leaked. Why does Detwiler have no information about Mahaney covering up sexual abuse in the information that was leaked? Detwiler knew CJ Mahaney inside and out, he seemed to know every flaw of the man, he documented it all over hundreds of pages, yet I can’t see where he goes after Mahoney on the cover-up. That is strange. Surely it was not out of loyalty.

    I can only come up with two possibilities . . . 1) Detwiler has proof that Mahaney was involved in the cover-up but will not divulge the information because he too was involved or 2) Detwiler has no evidence, which to me would seem to back up CJ’s assertion that he never participated in a cover-up.

    Maybe some of you have more information or can see other possibilities, but from my perspective Brent Detwiler is a key figure. The fact that he hasn’t released any damning proof, when he documented everything else so carefully and has it all published on his website, leads me to believe that despite all his other faults, maybe CJ was not involved in the cover-up.

  169. Yep. js as many will not believe even if more damning court evidence were provided. Sometimes it’s worth saying things for the record, but change of opinion is unlikely. @ Lydia:

  170. And to be clear, the knowing and not reporting is suspect. There is also public testimony parents were discouraged from going to police, and to add to that a child was put through a traumatic "reconciliation" meeting with an abuser. But we all know all this. Rehashing it to prove it to people who just don't care to believe victims is pointless. I do believe it's necessary to set records straight until it is clear how despicable Al Mohler and CJ Mahaney and others' actions have been in protecting their ministries not loving the people Christian leaders are called to serve. @ Melody:

  171. A general theological consideration to add to this. In my opinion, if you’re going to set up an authoritarian, team-based authority structure to “oversee” the lives of people in the flock, and the advancement of people into leadership roles, then the person(s) at the apex of that pyramid is/are *ultimately* responsible for what happens in their system, aren’t they?

    That kind of hierarchy is apparently the way SGM leaders saw in Scripture, the way they wanted to follow what they understood that God wants for authority structures. So, those at the top can’t suddenly be “un-responsible” when their subordinate leaders whom they supposedly oversee do things unethical and/or illegal and/or sinful — such as failure to report known/suspected child sexual abuse. Right?

    In that sense, regardless of what C.J. Mahaney says or doesn’t say about the specifics of the multiple child sexual abuse cases and convictions and additional allegations, he was the covering for SGM — and so would be the most culpable party, according to the very authority system he/they set up and agreed to, wouldn’t he?

    The top leaders in such hierarchies hold ultimate responsibility for the doctrines, the authority structures, the approach of “handling” issues in-house instead of taking legal or criminal issues to civil authorities, how they handled issues of governance and financial transparency with regulatory agencies, training and certification or de-certification of SGM leaders, matters of church discipline.

    So, Mr. Mahaney cannot suddenly or through silence or through moving to Kentucky recuse himself of responsibility for anything that happened under his supposed watch as a/the primary leader in SGM. Right?

    And, the evidence through documentations and depositions that is revealed about any/all who were leaders in SGM/SGC under his watch lends credence to a case of “preponderance of evidence” that continues to accrue to his responsibility account as the chief authoritarian leader in the system.

    And “preponderance of evidence” is the standard used for civil suits — not “guilty beyond a shadow of doubt” which is used in criminal cases.

    @js … none of what has been written over the last decade, and even the more detailed analyses done in the past few years, may be sufficient for the level of evidence you want. But hopefully we could agree that Mr. Mahaney bears some significant responsibility, as the “covering” for SGM and what has happened during his primary leadership, regardless of what you do/don’t believe about his roles in an alleged “cover-up.”

  172. Yup… Just like the captain of a US Navy ship …. Even if an underling screws-up big time and damages the ship, they usually can the captain…. Like running the ship aground, or recently forgetting to turn on the lubricant and burn out one of gear boxes (happened 4 months ago and they canned the captain!

    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    A general theological consideration to add to this. In my opinion, if you’re going to set up an authoritarian, team-based authority structure to “oversee” the lives of people in the flock, and the advancement of people into leadership roles, then the person(s) at the apex of that pyramid is/are *ultimately* responsible for what happens in their system, aren’t they?
    That kind of hierarchy is apparently the way SGM leaders saw in Scripture, the way they wanted to follow what they understood that God wants for authority structures. So, those at the top can’t suddenly be “un-responsible” when their subordinate leaders whom they supposedly oversee do things unethical and/or illegal and/or sinful — such as failure to report known/suspected child sexual abuse. Right?
    In that sense, regardless of what C.J. Mahaney says or doesn’t say about the specifics of the multiple child sexual abuse cases and convictions and additional allegations, he was the covering for SGM — and so would be the most culpable party, according to the very authority system he/they set up and agreed to, wouldn’t he?
    The top leaders in such hierarchies hold ultimate responsibility for the doctrines, the authority structures, the approach of “handling” issues in-house instead of taking legal or criminal issues to civil authorities, how they handled issues of governance and financial transparency with regulatory agencies, training and certification or de-certification of SGM leaders, matters of church discipline.
    So, Mr. Mahaney cannot suddenly or through silence or through moving to Kentucky recuse himself of responsibility for anything that happened under his supposed watch as a/the primary leader in SGM. Right?
    And, the evidence through documentations and depositions that is revealed about any/all who were leaders in SGM/SGC under his watch lends credence to a case of “preponderance of evidence” that continues to accrue to his responsibility account as the chief authoritarian leader in the system.
    And “preponderance of evidence” is the standard used for civil suits — not “guilty beyond a shadow of doubt” which is used in criminal cases.
    @js … none of what has been written over the last decade, and even the more detailed analyses done in the past few years, may be sufficient for the level of evidence you want. But hopefully we could agree that Mr. Mahaney bears some significant responsibility, as the “covering” for SGM and what has happened during his primary leadership, regardless of what you do/don’t believe about his roles in an alleged “cover-up.”

  173. Lea wrote:

    All very logical.

    Logic had no place in a cult though.

    While critical thinking and logic may have no place there, seems to me that certain kinds of internal consistency do … it’s a closed system and they function according to what’s inside the system. So, to those with a similar set of assumptions cannot see past the paradigm.

    Problem is (in the case of SGM), other people outside the system do function with some logic. And sharper, more holistic theological systems. And civil laws. And regulatory requirements. And professional standards and certifications. So … they can see into the closed system, and see through it.

    And as with the Boston Globe’s in-depth mapping of the “child abuse industrial complex” there, over time, the evidence and interconnections become more manifest — despite all attempts from inside the toxic system to stop the light from shining.

  174. @ brad/futuristguy:
    I think this is why Mohler wanted his quotes to the religion reporter removed a year or so later. He really positioned Mahaney as the strong leader who built SGM to what it became, trained all those godly pastors and the (survivor) bloggers just don’t like a strong leader.

    A year or so later that would make it harder to argue Mahaney had no idea what was going on IN ALL THE instances of child molestation over all those years. It would not be plausible. By that time he was planning to flee.

  175. @ Deb:
    Lots of articles flying in the religious media and blogosphere which refer to C.J. Mahaney as “Pastor”. Is there anybody out there in all the years of his ministry who feel they have been pastored by Mr. Mahaney? There is a big difference between preacher/teacher and pastor. While C.J. self-proclaimed his role as “Apostle” at one point, I don’t see much in his ministry that qualified him as Pastor. As for the good Dr. Mohler, I’m not sure what to call him either!

  176. Lydia wrote:

    I think this is why Mohler wanted his quotes to the religion reporter removed a year or so later. He really positioned Mahaney as the strong leader who built SGM to what it became, trained all those godly pastors and the (survivor) bloggers just don’t like a strong leader.

    A year or so later that would make it harder to argue Mahaney had no idea what was going on IN ALL THE instances of child molestation over all those years. It would not be plausible. By that time he was planning to flee.

    What I seem to keep finding in research writing, investigative reporting, and fiction or biographical analysis, is that when we put all such bits and pieces together in chronological order with all the main characters in the plotline, voila! All sorts of quite interesting things start to appear and become clear. And create excellent questions for digging in further to determine more closely what actually happened.

    That’s one reason why movies like *Spotlight* and *All the President’s Men* are so insightful, even in dealing with such intense subject matter — they show what goes into that kind of deep-background investigation that really does put things together in a framework of evidence.

    Another observation I’ve made over the years is that every malignant leader eventually seems to do some irrevocable act or statement that is way far over the line into unrighteousness, and it is in the presence of witnesses, and is undeniable. And it seems such things serve as the “loose thread” sticking up that, when pulled on, begins to unravel their entire fashionable façade.

    When there is that level of deception and deflection, it seems like it is only a matter of time before the thread sticks out …

  177. BL wrote:

    js wrote:
    But if a secondary leader of ARC comparable to Patrick were found in similar circumstances I doubt he would get the headline at the top of the screen. There is a special focus on Neo-Cals here.
    How did you decide that he was a ‘secondary’ leader?
    Chaplain of the St. Louis Cardinals.
    Author – multiple books and magazine articles.
    VP of Acts 29.
    TGC council member.
    How does any of that make him secondary?

    Not a headliner in the biggest conferences (t4g, TGC). I think he did do a Desiring God conference once. Not a big podcast guy. Hasn’t written much. Known but not the most prominent. Of course its a matter of opinion but that’s how I came to my conclusion.

  178. Abi Miah wrote:

    js wrote:
    BL wrote:
    Sure they’ve posted about ARC. I know TWW posts about a lot of groups. But if a secondary leader of ARC comparable to Patrick were found in similar circumstances I doubt he would get the headline at the top of the screen. There is a special focus on Neo-Cals here.
    I don’t agree that it’s true, but if it were, so what? Can a blog not have a focus? And if more of the commenters here have been negatively impacted by Neocal churches than by others, it’s natural that they would comment what has affected them personally.

    Of course a blog can have a focus but there can be a time when that focus skews the reality. If you only read two or three of the most prominent survivor blogs you would think all the abuse is going on in neo-Cal churches. This is demonstrably false with a five minute google search but that’s the impression you come away with. And of course birds of a feather flock together so when you see a site going after ones who you perceive have hurt you then you will tend to support such a site. It is all very natural, you are quite right.

  179. js wrote:

    Abi Miah wrote:
    js wrote:
    BL wrote:
    Sure they’ve posted about ARC. I know TWW posts about a lot of groups. But if a secondary leader of ARC comparable to Patrick were found in similar circumstances I doubt he would get the headline at the top of the screen. There is a special focus on Neo-Cals here.
    I don’t agree that it’s true, but if it were, so what? Can a blog not have a focus? And if more of the commenters here have been negatively impacted by Neocal churches than by others, it’s natural that they would comment what has affected them personally.
    Of course a blog can have a focus but there can be a time when that focus skews the reality. If you only read two or three of the most prominent survivor blogs you would think all the abuse is going on in neo-Cal churches. This is demonstrably false with a five minute google search but that’s the impression you come away with. And of course birds of a feather flock together so when you see a site going after ones who you perceive have hurt you then you will tend to support such a site. It is all very natural, you are quite right.

    But when there is such a bias in place, it is like MSNBC and Republicans and FOX News and Democrats, I take what is said with a grain of salt.

  180. Deb wrote:

    In case you haven’t read the latest in The Daily Beast.

    You know things are movin’ toward the big time when the chuckling one gets a full pic and write-up in The Daily Beast.

    There’s battle lines being drawn
    Nobody’s right if everybody’s wrong
    Young people speaking their minds
    Getting so much resistance from behind

    It’s time we stop, hey, what’s that sound
    Everybody look what’s going down…

    — Stephen Stills 1967 —

  181. @ brad/futuristguy:
    Oh, I agree about spotlight. As I told my kids, the native Bostonians on the paper were not even connecting dots from individual stories over years. It took an outsider to suggest there is something deeper and to investigate. That started it.

    Was it that the native Bostonian reporters, editors, etc could not conceive the systemic magnitude? They grew up in that world of a powerful, politically connected and respected church.

    We must learn from that. That is why I think it has taken so long for there to be any pushback at all on Mahaney from certain evangelical quarters despite all the patterns of behavior in handling the situation, document dump, organizational structure indicators and such.

    The secular media, outside the evangelical bubble, started investigating. Now we are seeing pockets of pushback in a few places in evangelicalism. It always sounds worse coming from those outside the bubble! It becomes indefensible at some point.

    You always bring a much needed systems perspective, Brad. I appreciate your work.

  182. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    A general theological consideration to add to this. In my opinion, if you’re going to set up an authoritarian, team-based authority structure to “oversee” the lives of people in the flock, and the advancement of people into leadership roles, then the person(s) at the apex of that pyramid is/are *ultimately* responsible for what happens in their system, aren’t they?
    That kind of hierarchy is apparently the way SGM leaders saw in Scripture, the way they wanted to follow what they understood that God wants for authority structures. So, those at the top can’t suddenly be “un-responsible” when their subordinate leaders whom they supposedly oversee do things unethical and/or illegal and/or sinful — such as failure to report known/suspected child sexual abuse. Right?
    In that sense, regardless of what C.J. Mahaney says or doesn’t say about the specifics of the multiple child sexual abuse cases and convictions and additional allegations, he was the covering for SGM — and so would be the most culpable party, according to the very authority system he/they set up and agreed to, wouldn’t he?
    The top leaders in such hierarchies hold ultimate responsibility for the doctrines, the authority structures, the approach of “handling” issues in-house instead of taking legal or criminal issues to civil authorities, how they handled issues of governance and financial transparency with regulatory agencies, training and certification or de-certification of SGM leaders, matters of church discipline.
    So, Mr. Mahaney cannot suddenly or through silence or through moving to Kentucky recuse himself of responsibility for anything that happened under his supposed watch as a/the primary leader in SGM. Right?
    And, the evidence through documentations and depositions that is revealed about any/all who were leaders in SGM/SGC under his watch lends credence to a case of “preponderance of evidence” that continues to accrue to his responsibility account as the chief authoritarian leader in the system.
    And “preponderance of evidence” is the standard used for civil suits — not “guilty beyond a shadow of doubt” which is used in criminal cases.
    @js … none of what has been written over the last decade, and even the more detailed analyses done in the past few years, may be sufficient for the level of evidence you want. But hopefully we could agree that Mr. Mahaney bears some significant responsibility, as the “covering” for SGM and what has happened during his primary leadership, regardless of what you do/don’t believe about his roles in an alleged “cover-up.”

    He no longer holds the position over all of SGM, he is no longer pastor of CLC, I suppose SGM itself could depose him (I don’t know their polity on such things). As it stands, he is in a different town without the leadership positions he once held. If we suppose for a moment that he truly is not guilty of covering up sex abuse, what should the outcome be for him now if he didn’t know but it took place on his watch?

  183. js wrote:

    He no longer holds the position over all of SGM, he is no longer pastor of CLC, I suppose SGM itself could depose him (I don’t know their polity on such things). As it stands, he is in a different town without the leadership positions he once held. If we suppose for a moment that he truly is not guilty of covering up sex abuse, what should the outcome be for him now if he didn’t know but it took place on his watch?

    With restitution in mind and making things right about any past issues he *is* responsible for, what do you think should happen?

    With qualifications for present and future leadership in mind, if he were responsible and fails to make things right, what do you think should happen?

  184. js wrote:

    If he were in arc out some other group he wouldn’t get a mention here.

    You must be a troll since you haven’t even bothered to look up all the articles we have written in the ARC. I am now beginning to tire of you. You are going into moderation. You will be approved as long as you wise up a bit.

  185. Melody wrote:

    Js many of us see Brent’s testimony as one source, not the whole picture. There are multiple sources that testify to CJ Mahaney knowing of their children’s abuse. The conviction of Nate Moraies and the testimony in court suggests his leadership team was involved in a child sex (ed.) abuse coverup. Your idea that we all base all our opinion on one source is unfounded.
    js wrote:
    There is one man (other than CJ) who I believe holds the key to CJ’s involvement in the cover-up of sexual abuse . . . Brent Detwiler.
    From what I understand, Detwiler was one of the four founders of SGM. He knew Mahaney intimately. He has hundreds of pages of e-mails and other documents regarding Mahaney. Detwiler began some years ago calling out Mahaney for his leadership failures and sins. Nowhere in these hundreds of pages do I see Detwiler link Mahaney to the covering up of sexual abuse. Detwiler went to great lengths to show the world that Mahaney was a poor leader and a deeply flawed and sinful man. Yet he did not divulge what would have been by far the most damning and serious charge Mahaney could have faced, the covering up of sexual abuse. And the abuse cases of Adams and Morales happened while Detwiler was still with SGM and long before his emails to Mahaney and company were leaked. Why does Detwiler have no information about Mahaney covering up sexual abuse in the information that was leaked? Detwiler knew CJ Mahaney inside and out, he seemed to know every flaw of the man, he documented it all over hundreds of pages, yet I can’t see where he goes after Mahoney on the cover-up. That is strange. Surely it was not out of loyalty.
    I can only come up with two possibilities . . . 1) Detwiler has proof that Mahaney was involved in the cover-up but will not divulge the information because he too was involved or 2) Detwiler has no evidence, which to me would seem to back up CJ’s assertion that he never participated in a cover-up.
    Maybe some of you have more information or can see other possibilities, but from my perspective Brent Detwiler is a key figure. The fact that he hasn’t released any damning proof, when he documented everything else so carefully and has it all published on his website, leads me to believe that despite all his other faults, maybe CJ was not involved in the cover-up.

    I am not saying you all base your opinion on one source. I am saying that Brent is one of the most important sources because he was an insider’s insider who is now on the outside. Who would be more likely to have a piece of damning evidence then Brent Detwiler? Yet he has produced none related to the cover up of child sexual abuse by CJ Mahaney. Nor have I seen any other evidence apart from accusation. It may all prove to be true, I can’t say. Every allegation in the Second Amended Complaint may be true, but it seems to me that Brent could put a definitive mark on this case. But he has not. He either has something or he doesn’t. If he has something he is not releasing, it is probably because he too would be implicated. If he has nothing, why not? How is it any more incredible to believe CJ Mahaney knew nothing than it is to claim Brent knew nothing? And if he knew something, why would he spend all those months picking apart CJ’s inner life instead of going after him on the most important issue, the horrific abuse of children?

  186. js wrote:

    So what actual evidence do you have that cj mahaney covered up sexual abuse?

    I spoke to the victims and their families.

  187. Lydia wrote:

    Code: we are emotional but JS is just trying to be factual. Got it.
    JS, if you read all documents associated with this from sgmwikileaks, lawsuit, SGMsurvivors the acts of neo cal exonerating, AofR, fleeing to Dever, moving to Louisville and more, and STILL don’t see it, then there is nothing to discuss.

    No question the we have a CJ apologist here.

  188. Lydia wrote:

    js wrote:
    I am not trolling but I am trying to wade into a highly emotional situation (and rightly so) to try to get at what really happened at SGM.
    Code: we are emotional but JS is just trying to be factual. Got it.

    So unfair of you. An example of putting things in the worst possible light. I made no statement to the effect that you all were emotional and I felt no such inclination in my heart. I stated that this is an emotionally-charged situation (and it is on both sides). Surely you must see that there has been a lot of heat generated in this without some very important definitive answers, foremost among them what did CJ know and when?

  189. Lydia wrote:

    Christa Brown commented over at Voices. I had forgotten all about the former SBC President, Frank Page ,referring to those who speak out:
    “Frank Page himself wrote a column in the Florida Baptist Witness in which he referred to those speaking out about clergy sex abuse as being “nothing more than opportunistic persons.”

    Lydia, can you provide the link? That sounds very troubling.

  190. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    js wrote:
    He no longer holds the position over all of SGM, he is no longer pastor of CLC, I suppose SGM itself could depose him (I don’t know their polity on such things). As it stands, he is in a different town without the leadership positions he once held. If we suppose for a moment that he truly is not guilty of covering up sex abuse, what should the outcome be for him now if he didn’t know but it took place on his watch?
    With restitution in mind and making things right about any past issues he *is* responsible for, what do you think should happen?
    With qualifications for present and future leadership in mind, if he were responsible and fails to make things right, what do you think should happen?

    I would say, if CJ knowingly covered up sexual abuse of children in SGM that he should be resign from all ministry responsibilities immediately.

    I think he should meet with all victims and families whose abuse he had any part in covering up who want to meet with him and hear their stories and ask their forgiveness.

    I think if others in SGM covered up abuse he should issue a public apology to the victims and their families which is clear and forthright. This is a step he should have already taken in light of the Grant Layman testimony.

    He should not participate in large conferences or other events outside his local church as long as suspicion hangs over him.

  191. dee wrote:

    No question the we have a CJ apologist here.

    Like Reichsminister Speer, he has “arranged his mind” to see no wrong in the regime and his Beloved Fuehrer.

  192. dee wrote:

    js wrote:
    If he were in arc out some other group he wouldn’t get a mention here.
    You must be a troll since you haven’t even bothered to look up all the articles we have written in the ARC. I am now beginning to tire of you. You are going into moderation. You will be approved as long as you wise up a bit.

    I am sorry to hear about the moderation. I mean no offense but I know my views may be wrong. I feel like I have always been very respectful. As to the rest of your comment, I know you have written articles about ARC. My doubt is that you would run a headline on the front page with the fall of an ARC pastor of similar stature to Patrick. It is my opinion and I may be wrong but I think it is one place where your bias shows.

  193. Melody wrote:

    Yep. js as many will not believe even if more damning court evidence were provided. Sometimes it’s worth saying things for the record, but change of opinion is unlikely. @ Lydia:

    “THE DWARFS ARE FOR THE DWARFS! WE WON’T BE TAKEN IN!”

  194. dee wrote:

    js wrote:
    So what actual evidence do you have that cj mahaney covered up sexual abuse?
    I spoke to the victims and their families.

    Did they directly implicate CJ in the cover up of sexual abuse? Are they willing to testify in court that it is true?

  195. Deb wrote:

    Dee,

    I’m 99.9% sure it’s Mahaney saying:

    “And that boys and girls is how you get invited back.”

    It occurs at the 9 minute mark:  http://www.sbts.edu/media/audio/fall2006/20061024mahaney.mp3

    Immediately afterwards, there’s that nauseating chuckle.

    The same HUMBLE “chuckle, chuckle” as when he was talking about how he HUMBLY forced his wife to service the URRRRRGES in his AAAAAREAS while she was puking her guts out from morning sickness? (A level of Utter Selfishness worthy of Ayn Rand…)

  196. Mara wrote:

    js wrote:
    So what actual evidence do you have that cj mahaney covered up sexual abuse?
    Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!
    Are you kidding?
    It’s all there, evidence and evidence and evidence.
    If you refuse to look at all the mass amounts of evidence given, that just means you refuse to look at it and acknowledge it for what it is.
    You refusing to acknowledge it’s existence doesn’t make that huge body of evidence disappear in a poof of your own disbelief.

    I’m thinking right now about John Gotti, AKA: Teflon Don. Dude was on trial more that once and nothin’ – not nothin’ could stick for the longest time. Teflon Don could be heard on tape saying: “Take care of it.” or “Take care of him.” That’s Mafia-speak for *Kill the guy.* But his shrewd, sleazy lawyer could convince a gullible jury that Gotti was innocent of all charges against him. And the people that knew Gotti was behind multiple murders were unwilling or too afraid to talk. Eventually, the law caught up with Gotti, ceasing to end his criminal career. The lesson: BE SURE YOUR SIN WILL FIND YOU OUT.

  197. Darlene wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    Christa Brown commented over at Voices. I had forgotten all about the former SBC President, Frank Page ,referring to those who speak out:
    “Frank Page himself wrote a column in the Florida Baptist Witness in which he referred to those speaking out about clergy sex abuse as being “nothing more than opportunistic persons.”

    Lydia, can you provide the link? That sounds very troubling.

    To Frank page quote?

    http://ethicsdaily.com/sbc-president-labels-sexual-abuse-critics-opportunists-cms-8817

  198. dee wrote:

    @ Deb:
    They mentioned my tweet on Mohler’s intro of Mahaney as kind and humble.

    That was a very thorough article, too.

  199. Lydia wrote:

    We must learn from that. That is why I think it has taken so long for there to be any pushback at all on Mahaney from certain evangelical quarters despite all the patterns of behavior in handling the situation, document dump, organizational structure indicators and such.

    Many a Catholic Diocese has been bankrupted because of drastic pushback from victims in the form of lawsuits and hefty awards to the victims. Will Mahaney (or who and whatever calvinista regime) learn from the Catholic experience and take steps to revamp their policies? It would behoove them to do so because the days of white Protestant privilege are coming to a close. If they don’t, the courts will come down hard and heavy on them too. It’s just a question of time.

  200. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    We had a CLC member comment on my blog yesterday and she said:

    “CLC appears to be following their statement on how to handle sex abuse. Different pastors are assigned to minister to victim and accuser with 90% more care being provided to the victim. They have a calling to pastor the souls of men, regardless of what they do.”

    I hope she is right. Whether a church has an obligation to support Caffery in this situation is hard for me to say. Historically CLC has not done right by the victim. Time will tell.

    I hope that is true. I had read that the victim did not have supporters in her corner. It just seems to me that even seeing that the church is giving equal support to the predator would be damaging.

    Frankly I think it is time the church stopped allowing itself to be a tool of manipulators.

  201. js wrote:

    First, even if what you say is all true (and I don’t believe it is) it isn’t right to bring them in for criticism at times when they aren’t related to the article at hand.

    Why not? If the subject matter leads to it, and there are a lot of similarities involving different personages.

  202. @ Muff Potter:
    You know, the Presbyterians adopted a serious and comorehensive child protection resolution in 2014 which Ligon Duncan of T4G affirmed. Resolutions in the SBC are really agreed upon suggestions. Not sure how binding they are for Presbyterians.

    The Presbyterians seem to have a denominational hierarchy and some Presbyterian pastors are not pleased with the association with Mahaney. Hmm.

  203. js wrote:

    maybe CJ was not involved in the cover-up.

    js, what about CJ is so important to you that you must go to such lengths to keep thinking he must be innocent? At what point will you become objective? Will it somehow damage your faith if CJ is not what you want him to be? Why are you so invested in his innocence that you are willing to overlook everything that points to his guilt? I am just curious.

  204. js wrote:

    There is a special focus on Neo-Cals here.

    It’s a shame they provide so much opportunity, isn’t it?

  205. Sopwith wrote:

    Q. Are they planning to remove the clergy’s non-reporting of child sexual abuse to the local authorities ‘privilege’ in the state of Maryland?

    Soppy,
    Good question. This is an issue in which I believe there is much misunderstanding. For a good explanation please go to my blog at this link:

    https://thouarttheman.org/2014/06/07/lawyer-susan-burke-comments-on-mahaneys-statement-of-innocence/

    The linked article has an audio of Janet Mefferd interviewing Susan Burke. Burke is the attorney who has filed the complaint on behalf of Sovereign Grace sexual abuse victims. The section of the interview relevant to your question is from 6:29-7:22.

    Basically, what Burke says is clergy are only exempted from notifying law enforcement in situations where a penitent offender comes to the clergy member to confess his crime/sin. This is not what happened in any of the Sovereign Grace cases. The pastors learned of the abuse by other means and then met together (conspired) on how to deal with the situation (cover it up).

  206. js wrote:

    you would think all the abuse is going on in neo-Cal churches. This is demonstrably false with a five minute google search but that’s the impression you come away with.

    So, demonstrate it.

  207. Darlene wrote:

    Did you know that Darrin Patrick was scheduled to speak at the “Men are better than Women” (CBMw) pre-conference the day prior to T$G started? They must have done some quick behind-the-scenes work to reparir that leak in the dike. I have before and after screen shots!

    Was this the real name of a pre-conference session??? If so, they might have thought they were being sarcastic, but sadly, it’s really what they think.

  208. Darlene wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    Christa Brown commented over at Voices. I had forgotten all about the former SBC President, Frank Page ,referring to those who speak out:
    “Frank Page himself wrote a column in the Florida Baptist Witness in which he referred to those speaking out about clergy sex abuse as being “nothing more than opportunistic persons.”
    Lydia, can you provide the link? That sounds very troubling.

    That is too bad. The word “opportunism” is used here. Opportunism means trying to increase one’s status. SBC heirarchy have been highly political and are cynical. They have seen much opportunism in their circles, some that is evil, and question the motives of people. My question is what improvement in status would bringing up child sexual abuse, whistle blowing in a sense, cause those who are bringing up these issues? Don’t understand?

  209. @ mirele: So sad. LDS church and other oppressors don’t have a leg to stand on in the court of law. There are those, some of who are ex communicants, who will help her and may be helping her, I hope. This is spiritual abuse of the highest order.

  210. Mark wrote:

    @ mirele: So sad. LDS church and other oppressors don’t have a leg to stand on in the court of law. There are those, some of who are ex communicants, who will help her and may be helping her, I hope. This is spiritual abuse of the highest order.

    Especially with HIPPAA (ms) violations. I hope her family stands by her side.

  211. @ BL:
    JS reminds me of trolls I saw at other web sites that criticize Neo Cals. I don’t go to a website anymore because of the trolling. Neo cal fanatics can’t be civil. I call them fanatics because they have become numb to criticism and callous to evil in their midst. They are all about defending themselves, whether rightly or wrongly. It doesn’t matter. This is not in the dna of their movement. This is my perception.

  212. HIPPAA does not apply to everybody and every organization, only some. Here is a fact sheet from (genuflect) the gov itself which explains this, all be it on a simple level and I am not a lawyer.

    http://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/for-individuals/guidance-materials-for-consumers/index.html

    Scroll down to “Who is not required to follow these laws” and note about most schools and most law enforcement agencies.

    In addition to that it has been my personal experience as a patient that one may be asked to sign away one’s rights under HIPPAA for various reasons. This can be stated in the stack of documents that are handled by the front office at the time of patient sign in. I have not noted whether it may also be on some permission paper for some surgery or other procedure. I always sign away any or all of my HIPPAA rights because I believe that it is not in my overall best interest to have anything ‘hidden’ which may be of use in the future to anybody, and because now that medical records are on line (e-records) and accessible thought patient portals they are easily hacked anyhow or so I am informed.

    I do understand that some patients may have reasons to want as much privacy as possible and I do understand that such privacy needs should be available within limits through privacy laws, but they are not in my own best interest.

    In my experience the ‘our privacy policy’ statements which the local providers furnish and for which they require a patient signature do not get into the details all that much.

    So I am saying about the BYU case, I think about ‘most schools’ and ‘most law enforcement agencies’ as being exempt from the law and I think about the possibility that she may have signed some authorization, so I will hold off on judging this situation as far as HIPPAA is concerned.

  213. dee wrote:

    No question that we have a CJ apologist here.

    There is a great multitude so caught up in the reformed movement that they have blinders on. But, as Al Mohler says, where else are they going to go?

    “Where else are they going to go? If you’re a theological minded, deeply convictional young evangelical, if you’re committed to the gospel and want to see the nations rejoice in the name of Christ, if you want to see gospel built and structured committed churches, your theology is just going to end up basically being Reformed, basically something like this new Calvinism, or you’re going to have to invent some label for what is basically going to be the same thing, there just are not options out there, and that’s something that frustrates some people, but when I’m asked about the New Calvinism—where else are they going to go, who else is going to answer the questions, where else are they going to find the resources they are going to need and where else are they going to connect. This is a generation that understands, they want to say the same thing that Paul said, they want to stand with the apostles, they want to stand with old dead people, and they know that they are going to have to, if they are going to preach and teach the truth.” (Dr. Albert Mohler, President of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary)

    It’s sad that so many are willing to follow this movement even when their leaders fail: Driscoll, Patrick, etc. Good Lord, 10,000 of the young reformers just showed up in Louisville to support Mahaney! Mahaney! But, why would they want to follow mainline Christianity since as Dr. Mohler says anything not New Calvinism is not a viable option?! The arrogance of these folks is swaggering.

  214. siteseer wrote:

    Why not? If the subject matter leads to it,

    I’ve noticed that js likes to make rules for us, telling us how things should be done, what shouldn’t be brought up, and who shouldn’t be saying what in these discussions.
    Mayhaps he thinks he’s morally superior to us. Or is he following some secret book of etiquette unknown to the rest? It’s like he’s involved in a fantasy world building project where he’s in control and the rest of us should follow the parameters that he has come up with.

    Whatever it is, he’s involved in some serious written gymnastics/parkour for the purpose of dodging, redirecting, and misleading away from the evidence and established GUILT of CJ.

  215. siteseer wrote:

    Will it somehow damage your faith if CJ is not what you want him to be?

    (Siteseer addressing js)

    This is the problem with these cult of personality systems. They cause people to focus on the man (leader/head/hero/idol) rather than on Jesus. So much so that when the man turns out to be, you know, corrupt, sinful, or even evil, this can devastate the believer’s view of Jesus.
    These things should not be.
    The system is screwed up and is screwing up thousands.
    Js has been trapped in this system. He’s been screwed up by the man and system.
    I hope he has an epiphany, wakes up, and gets the heck out of Dodge.
    Until then, he will continue to be emotionally and spiritually tied up up the man rather than Jesus. And he will continue his futile attempts to defend the indefensible.

  216. Max wrote:

    Dr. Mohler says anything not New Calvinism is not a viable option

    Another world builder, making rules, declaring falsehoods as the very gospel of Christ.

    An earlier comment of mine is stuck in the waiting room. Not a good place to be on a Sunday morning. It may be hours before it sees the light of day.

  217. @ okrapod:
    Makes sense. It could be Bob Jones. Byword is if you attend a legalistic school don’t and are of either sex, don’t invite someone into your room, if there is a chance something may go against the schools “honor” code. It could have been a totally innocent invite and it could turn into this kind of situation. This s a sad deal, and these kind of schools are not free democracies where fairness can be expected.

  218. Mara wrote:

    Another world builder, making rules, declaring falsehoods as the very gospel of Christ.

    In the quote I provided, Dr. Mohler essentially implies that anyone not reformed is not committed to the gospel and does not “preach and teach the truth.”

    As a 60+ year Southern Baptist, I have served alongside many “Old” Calvinists. For the most part, they have been civil and offered a good perspective to certain passages of Scripture. They did not demand that their way be THE way, nor attempt to take over a denomination that was predominantly non-Calvinist in belief and practice (at least for the 100+ years in the SBC that my ancestors and I experienced). Calvinism has certainly not been the default SBC theology in my lifetime, even though SBC founders prior to the Civil War leaned that way … by the time the 20th century came around, Southern Baptists had distanced themselves from reformed belief. However, this “New” Calvinism is a different beast. It dismisses everything that is not reformed theology. The new reformation is militant and aggressive, and led by an arrogant elite which stand by their peers even when those who have been trodden under foot in their ministries cry out.

  219. @ Mark:
    They are about winning an argument. They poke and bait then accuse you of being extreme or uncivil.it is uncanny how universal this is from that movement. It seems to be a learned thing. Frankly I have never seen anything like it because the interactions are like cookie cutter.

    I saw a long time ago that most people would just let them win because the tactics they use are confusing and most people end up trying to defend themselves instead of the issue they were discussing. Most people did not realize that there was no intention of having a real conversation in the first place. May be living at Ground Zero and being a dumb girl helped me to see this a bit earlier. They are shocked when you don’t back down and it is best you are not in a situation where they have any power.

    But things are A-Changin. The tactics are less of a secret these days and more and more people see the pattern.

  220. @ Mark:
    You know Page was never able to tell us what sort of personal gain opportunities one gets for going up against a powerful machine? There is no money in it. In fact it ends up costing them money. They can write a book but they don’t have near the marketing potential a huge organization with tabs to Publishers and retail outlets like the SBC has.

    So, what opportunities that bring personal gain? The truth is people who speak up not only suffer but their family suffered too. There is nothing more harrowing than going up against christian celebrities. They play very dirty, in my experience. And they get by with it because the Lemmings never believe it

  221. Lydia wrote:

    The tactics are less of a secret these days and more and more people see the pattern.

    But, in the meantime, they have darn near destroyed SBC life as I have known it for 60+ years! These reformed preacher boys are an arrogant, rebellious mess. It would have been an easier row to hoe for all of us if they had just joined Presbyterian ranks where their theology was more welcome … rather than Calvinizing a denomination that didn’t ask for it.

  222. Mark wrote:

    these kind of schools are not free democracies where fairness can be expected

    This issue of how a private college or university should be governed is a matter of disagreement from various angles. Who gets to say what the rules are is the question. There was a time when you could pick out one or the other type school and send your people there and get what you paid for either way. Not so much any more, and some folks are trying to make some of the ‘issues’ political.

    Personally I came from a family tradition of going to schools and I have been to schools and I have sent my kids to schools and now I am helping send some grandkids to schools and I have my own opinions. One of my opinions is so far to the hard right as that is now defined that a lot of people would not agree. I think that schools are wise to establish their own rules via the boards of trustees and via those who fund the university and via the church if church related, and they are wise to say ‘if you don’t like the rules don’t go to school here’. The school is therefore able to market itself to the crowd who does like the rules whether they be liberal or conservative. Personally I did not and would not shell out my hard earned money for some 18 year old kid of mine or anybody else’s to tell me what I get for that money. I used to tell my kids, toe the line or you are out of here; I hope you like working at McDonalds and don’t forget to call home sometimes. We are now several generations down the line of people who somehow survived such ‘terrible oppression” (sarcasm) and who accumulate post grad degrees of various sorts without having to seek psychiatric help to overcome the residuals of such oppression (more sarcasm). If people do not learn how to get themselves under control, even when they may disagree with some of the rules, how does this contribute to a populace which can govern itself in any way or for that matter do what is necessary to keep from self destructing merely for lack of self discipline?

    As I have previously stated, in this town there are quite a few church related PK-8 or PK-12 or 9-12 schools of various flavors as well as some schools for the wealthy and just down the road a military oriented academy and schools for those with learning problems and these schools have various value systems and emphases from which to pick. Judging from the number of such schools here and the fact that you can apply but they may be full and judging from the diversity between these schools I conclude that such thinking still prevails in a sufficient number of people such that money can be made for schools by marketing to those of us who feel this way.

  223. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    The king of humility explains that CLC was a great church because their leaders were so humble.

    I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at that remark. Humility is not a descriptor that pops up in analyses of New Calvinism across the religious media and blogosphere … except from the New Calvinists themselves!

  224. js wrote:

    . My doubt is that you would run a headline on the front page with the fall of an ARC pastor of similar stature to Patrick. It is my opinion and I may be wrong but I think it is one place where your bias shows.

    And this is why you will stay in moderation. Frankly, I am weary of having to defend this blog to people who show up and make uninformed claims about what we do and do not do. Take the time and read this blog before you open your uninformed mouth.

    In fact I did put the affair of Dino Rizzo, ARC pastor, at the top of this blog and wrote about it. The same goes for Bill Gothard and a myriad of others.

    This blog has covered a sex abuse case in the Mennonite Church involving John Yoder, the antics of Ed Young Jr, Doug Phillips, Mark Driscoll, Jack Schaap, etc.

    The only one with a so called bias here is you. I have stated up front that I am not a Calvinist. That is no surprise to anyone who reads this blog. However, our EChurch pastor, Wade, tends to the reformed side. So, hows that for being fair.

    Keep making statements like this and you will be banned because it is becoming evident that you are not here to dialogue but to discredit us and you are doing a singularly bad job at it.

  225. js wrote:

    How is it any more incredible to believe CJ Mahaney knew nothing than it is to claim Brent knew nothing?

    Because his brother in law, on the stand, said he knew he should have reported this to the police. You have to be downright naive or a sycophant to believe that he didn’t tell his dear brother in law.

  226. @ js:
    Did you ever think about this in another way? The Calvinistas have been jumping up and down, seeking attention in every media source they can garner. Well, they got what they want. Now, we get to look at all the hoopla and see what they are saying.

  227. @ dee:

    Dee, there are two SBC-YRR church plants near me. The "lead pastors" at both of them are still defending Driscoll (his contributions were greater than his sins mumbo-jumbo) … I suspect they will also rally around Patrick. It's in their DNA to debate anything non-Calvinist and defend anything that is Calvinist (ed.). As you note, ministerial misconduct is not limited to any given theology … it is a plague that has fallen on the American church at large. TWW has done a good job at exposing darkness in various corners of Christendom – thank you for standing. It's unfortunate that others don't see what you see because of their desire to stand by their man no matter what.

  228. Max wrote:

    It’s in their DNA to debate anything non-Calvinist and defend anything that is.

    Meant to say “It’s in their DNA to debate anything non-Calvinist and defend anything that is Calvinist.”

  229. @ js:
    So, you are the one who gets to decide that Darrin Patrick is a *secondary* leader in spite of his position with Acts 29 and the leader of a much admired Calvinista church? Of yeah, and he was supposed to be a speaker at the CBMW *testosterone* conference before T4G.

    You spin it well but we read… a lot. For example, look at how much he has posted at The Gospel Coalition website. https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/search/results/RGFycmluIFBhdHJpY2s

    Also, Russ Moore is so gosh darned worried about these Neo Cal fails that he had to write a post telling people to “nothing to see about out theology-move along now.” post

    http://www.russellmoore.com/2016/04/15/what-to-do-when-a-pastor-falls/

    Once again, you are definitely one of the boys and it is becoming quite clear. You accuse us of bias? Well what about your buddies at TGC, CBMW, T4G, etc.?

  230. Max wrote:

    It’s unfortunate that others don’t see what you see because of their desire to stand by their man no matter what.

    This last fail by Al Mohler at T4G is getting quite a bit of press. Slowly, the lights are coming on in some corners. What we have to do is keep writing and keep getting our posts piling up on Google. Then people looking up churches on the internet will hear the rest of the story.

    Darrin Patrick was a Mark Driscoll kind of guy-The Dude’s Guide to Manhood-give me a break! We will be writing about him this week.

  231. Max wrote:

    as Al Mohler says, where else are they going to go?

    I have read that before and it boils my blood every time I hear it. Mohler’s statement is so bereft of any reality that it can basically be picked apart sentence by sentence. ‘Where else are they going to go?’ If they want ‘structured committed churches’ they have a better chance of that with any of several liturgical and hierarchical denominations. If the big issue is ‘answers’ and ‘resources’ and ‘connection’ every religious group offers up a set of answers and resources and connections. And if ‘they want to say the same thing that Paul said, they want to stand with the apostles, they want to stand with old dead people’ then nobody but nobody does this more thoroughly than either the RCC or the orthodox. And the RCC and the orthodox throw in more answers than most of us can even deal with. People are correct, and I think it is self evident, that Mohler does not disagree with the systems of the older churches, it is just that he seems to want to be pope with his own people in places of power, even if he has to tweak answers and resources and connections and the deposit of faith and old dead people to get it done.

    This is not Mel G. screaming ‘freedom’, this is a contender for the throne in my opinion.

  232. @ okrapod:
    The worst aspect of this is when there is no choice. Many of the working poor would love a choice. Several years ago there was a school choice group that came in with a scholarship pilot to apply to private schools for the poor . There were thousands of applications from some of the worst neighborhoods. The project was an embarrassment to government and the public school system.
    They had no idea the sentiment out there…

  233.  __

    “…you will know them by their fruit…” – Jesus

    hmmm…

     “…anything not New Calvinism is not a viable option.” – Albert Mohler

    echo, echo, echo…

    Neo-Calvinism is might; our ‘religion’© is right…

    march, march, march…

    huh?

      Apparently the observable core characteristic(s) of the Neo-Calvinist (New Calvinism) movement is documented oppression, the susceptibility and duping of large groups  young men to groupthink, lockstep, and ‘religious’ © mind control,  jackboot religious theological fatalism, the bilking of gullible Christians (the body of Christ), the blaintant subjection of unsuspecting woman, the permissible acceptance of stealthy abuse of defenceless children, and the appalling silencing of it’s many victims. 

    What?

    There is a way that ‘seems right’ unto a religious man, but that way leads to isolation, to spiritural oppression, and to the persistent harboring of pedophiles?

    Skreeeeeeetch !

    could b.

    “Neo-Calvinism is not a victim-less crime.” ™

    The dilitarious[1] effects of T4G, TGC, 9 Marks, Acts 29, SGC, and CBMW …coming to a neighborhood church near you?

    (sadface)

    Make sure the ‘exits’ are clearly marked…

    Sopy
    __
    [1] del·e·te·ri·ous
    [ˌdeləˈtirēəs]
    Adjective;
    causing tremendous harm or long-lasting damage:
    “Neo-Calvinism is assumed to have deleterious effects on women and children…”
    synonyms: harmful · damaging · detrimental · injurious · adverse 

    ;~)

  234. @ dee:

    The irony is after all the damage that has been done by that movement, the movement gurus started another rally cry called, “Unity”. That is why we see such a resolution, which in the SBC is really just a suggestion, that Mohler will proudly vote for— with a straight face. He ignored a similar resolution in 2013 that focuses on entities.

    Bart Barber admitted that any motion with teeth would never make it out of committee. Doesn’t that tell him something about the men he is “Unified” with? They really have no problem with SGL as an SBC Church? These pastures need better associations. Didn’t their mommas ever tell them that you become like the people you hang around with?

    The cry for unity has worked. How people can be unified with the likes of Mohler, Mahaney, Driscoll, Dever, Chandler, etc, blows my mind. But Mohler seems to have some sort of Svengali hold over most of the men in the SBC whether they are Calvinists or not.

  235. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    The king of humility explains that CLC was a great church because their leaders were so humble.

    Just look at all their liveried Armorbearers blowing long trumpets before them to announce how HUMBLE they are!

  236. okrapod wrote:

    If people do not learn how to get themselves under control, even when they may disagree with some of the rules, how does this contribute to a populace which can govern itself in any way or for that matter do what is necessary to keep from self destructing merely for lack of self discipline?

    Then Discipline shall be forced on them from above, by The Whip and the Iron Heel.

    When they have narrowed themselves down to only two remaining choices — Totalism or Anarchy,
    “They will call upon The Strong Man. And The Strong Man shall come.”
    — Carol Balizet, some Seventies-vintage spiritual warfare novel.

  237. Muff Potter wrote:

    Many a Catholic Diocese has been bankrupted because of drastic pushback from victims in the form of lawsuits and hefty awards to the victims. Will Mahaney (or who and whatever calvinista regime) learn from the Catholic experience and take steps to revamp their policies? It would behoove them to do so because the days of white Protestant privilege are coming to a close. If they don’t, the courts will come down hard and heavy on them too. It’s just a question of time.

    A couple of thoughts on this: First, as many people who’ve watched the movie Spotlight have commented, one of the most emotionally charged moments comes as the film concludes. The Spotlight research team is fielding calls from abuse survivors and other readers on every phone in their office. (According to Boston Globe editor Marty Baron, the newspaper ran about 600 follow-up articles in just the first year after the initial report, and several hundred more the second year.)

    As we’re absorbing the impact of that scene, then, leading into the credits is a series of four screens with column after column of place names where investigations into Catholic diocese systems happened after the Boston Globe ran their Spotlight team’s story. That moment can be so overwhelming in its magnitude of thinking about the number of victims encompassed by those investigations, that it may not have registered exactly how many investigations Spotlight sparked.

    There were about 50 places per screen. The first set of two screens list a total of 105 locales in the U.S. The last set of two screens list a total of 101 investigations in cities/regions around the world. So, the grand total of investigations was 206. It would be intriguing to follow up and see how many resulted in lawsuits and bankruptcies.

    Shifting over to Protestant systems under discussion here, especially the Neo-Calvinist variety, I suspect that investigations and lawsuits are practically inevitable. Look at the trends on that in the 15 years since the Spotlight team published their initial article (which was in January 2002). Consider whether the Penn State/Sandusky scandal was a tipping point for no-more-tolerance of pedophile protection systems. Think about how a movie like Spotlight winning the Academy Award for Best Picture gives an up-to-date “social barometer” reading that predicts the forthcoming “investigative weather” for abusive systems and cover-ups.

    The time seems to be coming when spiritual abuse “survivor blogs” will be seen as the pioneers in reporting the instances of abuse and connecting the dots that reveal patterns of malignancy. But mainstream media like The Washingtonian and Time are now digging deeper into Sovereign Grace Ministries. So Dr. Mohler’s supposed “10,000 friends of C.J. Mahaney” at Together for the Gospel may want to consider what could unfold for them if the SGM past of Mr. Mahaney becomes a present for their future. If their systems turn out as internally authoritarian and socially autonomous as SGM’s seems to have been, will their church be on the list of some eventual movie screen?

    Final thought: Time posted a very important article by psychologist Joan Cook on February 2, 2016: “What Spotlight Teaches Us About Institutional Betrayal.” Key quote from this must-read article:

    The biographical film Spotlight offers an important reminder that to address these injustices we must look beyond individual cases to address the larger issue of institutional betrayal.

    […] What makes the story so noteworthy is that the journalists push beyond the reports of abuse to tackle the problems at the top of the organization.

    Why is this so important? When institutions have unsafe environments where trauma is more likely to occur and more difficult to report, it adds a thick layer of additional harm compounding the damage already done. And when institutions react to reports of abuse with disbelief, blame, harassment, refusals to help or insensitive fact-finding practices, it adds additional personal harm to the survivor.

    http://time.com/4200126/spotlight-institutional-betrayal/

  238. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    This is so true. I see it all around me. Arbitrary rules because more and more people have no self-control. The bad guys always end up making it harder for the good guys. In our society now it is Politically Incorrect to point out the bad guys and hold them accountable.

  239. dee wrote:

    Darrin Patrick was a Mark Driscoll kind of guy-The Dude’s Guide to Manhood-give me a break!

    The commenter who said Patrick is a “secondary” figure in New Calvinism doesn’t know Patrick’s history. He was an early, prominent influencer of the movement before it hit the radar screen. The YRR know him well. He tagged-teamed with Driscoll at Acts 29 to popularize a potty-mouth version of reformed theology. He was instrumental in putting “rebel” in the rebellion which characterizes the new reformation. Patrick launched his ministry by drinking with the dudes in St. Louis bars to get their attention in his church and the “OK” abuses of Christian liberties. He’s a Main Dude, not a secondary player.

  240. okrapod wrote:

    a contender for the throne

    A new Calvin, already sitting on a throne in the new Geneva (Louisville). On the very apex of the pyramid called New Calvinism. The MAN above all others; a primary influencer idolized by an army of young, restless and reformed!

  241. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Then Discipline shall be forced on them from above, by The Whip and the Iron Heel.

    Come on HUG. It should be pretty clear that what I am talking about is a way to prevent that very thing. But yes, if people cannot discipline themselves to refrain from driving while drunk, let us say, then discipline will be forced on them to do so.

  242. dee wrote:

    js wrote:
    I am sorry to hear about the moderation. I mean no offense
    Baloney.

    Never met you Dee, but I love you….Did you ever teach high school? ( And you may see that as an insult.)

  243. @ mirele:

    This is exactly the cultural practice among many Islamic families; accounts from all over the world relate the inhuman punishments meted out to women for infractions ranging from dress code violations to appearing in public without male family members all the way to being raped or worse. Public whippings, murder, acid in the face, stoning… The family has been “dishonored” by the woman, even if she herself has been raped.

  244. Lydia wrote:

    Many of the working poor would love a choice.

    There are some options and choices here, but not enough. There is a tuition program with tax monies, maybe the state or maybe the local tax base, I am not sure how it works, and some of the private schools are advertising that they participate in that system and they advertise for students under that program. However the money is strictly limited based on certain criteria like need and failing school or such-I don’t know all the details. The program needs expanded in my opinion, but when it has been discussed in the past there is some serious opposition from the anti-private-school crowd, and it is after all public monies being used. That is a political hot potato.

    At the high school level we have some but not enough special interest magnet schools including STEM. fine arts and the international baccalaureate program and the system will furnish transportation for any child in the district to the magnet school of choice, if of course they get one of the limited slots available.

    The public system needs a lot of work. A lot. But some of what needs done most is in the area of behavior management in the classroom, loss of teacher assistants in the lower grades, drug gangs and inadequate knowledge of the English language. I can’t solve any of that, but I agree enormously that there are problems.

  245. I was just reading this page where CJ supposedly denies guilt.
    http://www.sgclouisville.org/blog/post/a-statement-from-c-j–mahaney

    His exact statement:
    I have never conspired to protect a child predator, and I also deny all the claims made against me in the civil suit.

    I note that he does not say that he did not know about or make any decisions about the pedophiles. He only claims that he did not “conspire to protect child predators.” This is a meaningless claim for the purposes of truth because it is open to interpretation. How he defines “conspiring” or “protecting” a child predator may vary from your or my definition.

    The statement “I also deny all the claims made against me in the civil suit” is much too broad and is unreliable. Please note that “I deny these things are true” is not the same as saying “these things are not true.” Can you spot the difference?

    Are there other statements out there where CJ says something more meaningful in terms of what he knew or did?

  246. Max wrote:

    The commenter who said Patrick is a “secondary” figure in New Calvinism doesn’t know Patrick’s history. He was an early, prominent influencer of the movement before it hit the radar screen. The YRR know him well.

    Agree completely. I also agree that he is the victim of his own tribe’s authoritarianism. I mean seriously…what else did you expect?

  247.   __

    “Cover Me, Lord?” [1]

    hmmm…

    Doctor Albert Mohler, 

      Respectfully, the Maryland court evidence summarized against PDI/SGM personages has given creedance to ‘facts’ that “they” (various PDI/SGM pastors) ran the “makings” of a ‘religious pedophile protection system’ ™ for over 40 years of their history with Reverand C.J. Mahaney solely at the helm of this international church organization, and was the official in charge,  i.e. who was legally responsible for law enforcement notification, which he failed to do, for reasons not yet dully disclosed. The non-disclosure led to ‘countless’ (TBD) others becoming sexual abuse victims themselves.

    (sadface)

    The ‘investigation’ is current and ongoing in at least two states.

    Might wanna ‘watch’ your step, huh?

    Fix your eyes upon Jesus…

    Sopy
    __
    [1]Mark Condon – “Cover Me!”
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LmWTPIInuIE

  248. It seems that the question about whether someone is a secondary player or not is another way of asserting that Christian celebrity is a worthy category.

    Are only the actions of celebrities worth writing about?

  249. @ Abi Miah:
    The celebrities would not be celebrities without the secondary celebrity makers. I saw this up close and personal in the Seeker Mega movement. They expect to be rewarded too

  250. Max wrote:

    The commenter who said Patrick is a “secondary” figure in New Calvinism doesn’t know Patrick’s history.

    I think he knows his history. I believe he is deliberately playing it down since Patrick was one of the TGC boyz.

  251. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    Happy Sunday morning to my US friends. I have a new blog up. I mock Mohler a bit. Also, please listen to the last audio. The king of humility explains that CLC was a great church because their leaders were so humble. I don’t think many have heard that before. I stumbled across it the other day.

    https://thouarttheman.org/2016/04/17/mohler-googled-mahaney-got-favorite-sports-teams-get-something-bit-serious/

    Excellent post.

    Goodness, what a self-serving bit of verbiage in that recording. What a salesman.

    I learned a long time ago that a speaker can speak ambiguously, just using key words and phrases now and then, and each listener in the audience will read into it the meaning he wants it to have. They can trust in that and they know it. People have a propensity to hear what they want to hear. Very few listen objectively for actual facts, for clear statements that can be pinned down.

  252. Lydia wrote:

    But things are A-Changin. The tactics are less of a secret these days and more and more people see the pattern.

    Praise God for this!

  253. Max wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    The tactics are less of a secret these days and more and more people see the pattern.

    But, in the meantime, they have darn near destroyed SBC life as I have known it for 60+ years! These reformed preacher boys are an arrogant, rebellious mess. It would have been an easier row to hoe for all of us if they had just joined Presbyterian ranks where their theology was more welcome … rather than Calvinizing a denomination that didn’t ask for it.

    AMEN!

  254. Mark wrote:

    JS reminds me of trolls I saw at other web sites that criticize Neo Cals. I don’t go to a website anymore because of the trolling. Neo cal fanatics can’t be civil. I call them fanatics because they have become numb to criticism and callous to evil in their midst. They are all about defending themselves, whether rightly or wrongly. It doesn’t matter. This is not in the dna of their movement. This is my perception.

    Remember, they’re chosen, and since you disagree with them, you’re apparently not (in their twisted entitlement-driven mentality).

  255. Max wrote:

    But, in the meantime, they have darn near destroyed SBC life as I have known it for 60+ years! These reformed preacher boys are an arrogant, rebellious mess. It would have been an easier row to hoe for all of us if they had just joined Presbyterian ranks where their theology was more welcome … rather than Calvinizing a denomination that didn’t ask for it.

    Excellent question, and it makes me wonder if the PCA has something in their authority structure that would prevent these guys from advancing the way they have at the SBC.

  256. Well, I went to Driscoll’s church today with my signs:

    “Mark Driscoll: Scottsdale is not ‘Business as Usual'”

    and

    “Mark Driscoll’s Unfinished Seattle Business: DespicableMarkDriscoll.com”

    There were many more cars this week. Last week it appeared he had ~45-50 cars, this week, it was closer to 80-90 cars. I believe that’s because Driscoll sent out an e-mail on Thursday reminding people he still existed and telling them he had bouncy houses for the kids as well as plans for the future church.

    One man invited me in. I was “No. No thank you.” Another guy, going into the church, stopped and took a picture of my sign. Good, it has the site URL on it.

    I want people to know that every Sunday morning I go through the whole “Why am I doing this again?” argument. It’s hard for me to go out with a sign every week because I’d prefer to be blending in with the wallpaper. But nobody else is letting people know that Mark Driscoll has some real problems he needs to deal with. If someone else were leading the church (and that person didn’t have the U-Haul full of baggage Driscoll has), I can find better things to do with my Sunday morning. Like sleeping. Or crocheting. Or reading a book. Or snuggling with my cat. So many things. But this is my thing.

  257. Max wrote:

    In the quote I provided, Dr. Mohler essentially implies that anyone not reformed is not committed to the gospel and does not “preach and teach the truth.”

    Since he loves making stuff up, he should try his hand at fiction writing. It’s okay to lie then for the sake of entertainment.

  258. mirele wrote:

    . It’s hard for me to go out with a sign every week because I’d prefer to be blending in with the wallpaper.

    Are you the only one?
    Man, that’s dedication.
    I wish I could stand out there sometime with you. But I have no other reason to go to Scottsdale.
    You a doing good work, even if no one walking past you understands.
    You being there is making a difference.

  259. js wrote:

    I mean no offense but

    There is that “but” again, inserting “but” negates the preceding statement.

  260. mirele wrote:

    I want people to know that every Sunday morning I go through the whole “Why am I doing this again?” argument.

    Go mirely. If you put the question in one person’s mind such that they turn away from Driscoll it will be worth it. That said, I’m hoping for a whole lot more that one.

  261. patriciamc wrote:

    Excellent question, and it makes me wonder if the PCA has something in their authority structure that would prevent these guys from advancing the way they have at the SBC.

    Oh, I think the PCA theology and ecclesiology would not be a problem to the new reformers. Their focus on SBC is all about taking the denomination back to its theological roots. It is true that the SBC founders were primarily Calvinist … preachers, deacons, and laymen who were slave-holders in the South prior to the Civil War. They entered the War defending their slavery position as “Biblical” and held that opinion as God’s sovereign will as the bullets started flying … until early victories by the Confederacy turned to defeat! After the War, Southern Baptists began to distance themselves from Calvinism and by the turn of the 20th century, non-Calvinist belief and practice was the SBC default. It took Southern Baptists 150 years to repent of the sin of slavery by its founders, at one of its national conventions. So, why go back to such theological roots?! Or swing the pendulum back 500 years to retrieve John Calvin?! I have nothing against the Presbyterians – they have been kind enough to stay in their reformed circle while Southern Baptists held to their non-Calvinist beliefs for the last 100 years. The new reformers would find a better fit in PCA without all the weeping and gnashing of teeth they are causing in SBC. While I don’t agree with the tenets of reformed theology, my primary concern is the militant Calvinization of a denomination which is comprised of majority non-Calvinists. Just join the Reformed Baptist organizations or the Presbyterian ranks, or make T4G a denomination, and leave millions of Southern Baptist alone who don’t identify with a determinist God who predestines some to heaven and some to hell before they ever draw breath. The Cross of Christ and His salvation is available to ALL people, as I read Scripture. Jesus comes to the repentant when they come to Him.

  262. patriciamc wrote:

    Excellent question, and it makes me wonder if the PCA has something in their authority structure that would prevent these guys from advancing the way they have at the SBC.

    Of course there is a more insidious reason (beyond my earlier response to you) for the interest of the new reformers in the Southern Baptist Convention … they want our stuff! Seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house, thousands of churches, and a tremendous infrastructure which will support their movement without having to finance a new thing themselves. They have silently placed reformed leaders in most SBC entities over the past 15 years; thus, the New Calvinists already control the denomination essentially … and the pew ain’t got a clue!

  263. Max wrote:

    and the pew ain’t got a clue!

    What makes you think that the pew ain’t got a clue? Has some research been done, some poll, some study, some statistics or such? More than that, if in fact the pew people are clueless what evidence is there that they would care one way or the other? I just find it hard to believe that entire churches leave the SBC fold and the people who stay with SBC know that and yet they remain clueless about stuff going on? That taxes my brain to understand how that could be.

  264. __

    “All The SGM/SGC Church Is A Stage?”

    hmmm…

    Lights, Camera, Action…

    “The true church is established upon the ‘apostles doctrine'(Acts 2:41), which is the New Testament that God inspired them to write. In any building, it is obvious you do not repeat a foundation. Once a foundation is laid down, you build on that. ” –
    C. Matthew Recker

    hmmm…

    Not C.J. , a Catholic Charismatic,  he built his SGM 501(c)3 church organization upon a new movement of apostles, of which he appointed himself the head. 

    huh?

    “Historically, the Sovereign Grace churches have affirmed the continuation of the office of apostle. We thought of the leaders of Sovereign Grace Ministries as apostles. This ‘justified’ the existence and activities of SGM.” -Brent Detwiler [1]

    What?

    But where did Sovereign Grace Ministries receive its authority? 

    What was its foundation? 

    “It appears their view is that they were the new apostles of this generation and so they need no ordination from a true church having received it directly from Jesus Christ.” -Bret Detwiler  [2]

    “If C. J. comes out in favor of apostles governing SGM, at least one third of the churches will leave. If C. J. distances himself from apostles, SGM becomes a parachurch organization with no biblical justification for their existence.” -Bret Detwiler [3]

    Apparently failing to find continued justification for this effort, by stealth he then moved his entire church organization into the arms of New Calvinism bearing great organizational talent, and  a cornucopia of financial gifts. Mark Dever and Albert Mohler helped close the deal.

    Who Knew!

    Can anyone smell Catholic Apostolic Cult turned Calvinist Caper?

    Bump.

    Looks like he (C.J. Mahaney) ‘carried’ a little ‘dirty laundry’ ta Louisville Ky. , huh? [4] [5] 

    “New Calvinism now ‘justifies’ the existence and activities of SGC.” -Sopwith

    Whatz next?

    Curtains or another creative ‘religious’ transformation?

    Sopy
    __
    http://abrentdetwiler.squarespace.com/brentdetwilercom/2012/5/16/cjs-conundrum-regarding-apostles.html

    [2] ibid.

    [3] http://www.proclaimanddefend.org/2014/07/10/c-j-mahaney-sgm-abuse-and-the-apostolic-gift/

    [4] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SzT10MSgKtU

    [5] http://sgclouisville.org/sovereign-grace-church-louisville-our-pastors

    ;~)

  265. Max wrote:

    It would have been an easier row to hoe for all of us if they had just joined Presbyterian ranks where their theology was more welcome … rather than Calvinizing a denomination that didn’t ask for it.

    But going Presbyterian wouldn’t have advanced the Cause of Calvin.
    Now the SBC – largest non-liturgical Prot denom — additionally spreads the Word of Calvin.
    “Tomorrow THE WORLD!”

  266. Max wrote:

    Humility is not a descriptor that pops up in analyses of New Calvinism across the religious media and blogosphere … except from the New Calvinists themselves!

    You can say the same about Democracy(TM) and North Korea.

  267. okrapod wrote:

    Max wrote:
    and the pew ain’t got a clue!
    What makes you think that the pew ain’t got a clue? Has some research been done, some poll, some study, some statistics or such? More than that, if in fact the pew people are clueless what evidence is there that they would care one way or the other? I just find it hard to believe that entire churches leave the SBC fold and the people who stay with SBC know that and yet they remain clueless about stuff going on? That taxes my brain to understand how that could be.

    They will frequently not have a clue until the deed is done, as in stealth takeovers. They hire a pastoral candidate who is a closet Calvinist (a la The Quiet Revolution) and then the heat gets turned up under the pot. Some frogs will notice immediately that the heat was turned on: by-law changes, shifts in preaching emphasis, polity changes may be made incrementally. But initial whistle-blowers may be met with skepticism by many of the other frogs in the pot. By the time many people in the congregation realize what’s happened, it will feel like it’s too late to oppose. They have lost congregational rule, for instance, and found out that plurality of elder rule means the BFFs of the new pastor. Then comes the question of whether you want to leave everyone you have come to care for over the years or stick it out because it’s too hard to start over. So yeah, I would guess most people eventually figure it out, but by the time the majority get it, it’s too late to go back. It’s either leave or decide you can live with it, even if it’s not what you believe.

  268. Bill M wrote:

    js wrote:

    I mean no offense but

    There is that “but” again, inserting “but” negates the preceding statement.

    I kind of feel the same way when I hear ‘servant’ leader and that people should lovingly and winsomly do X. All the extra words are there to soften the actual truth.

  269. okrapod wrote:

    What makes you think that the pew ain’t got a clue? Has some research been done, some poll, some study, some statistics or such? More than that, if in fact the pew people are clueless what evidence is there that they would care one way or the other? I just find it hard to believe that entire churches leave the SBC fold and the people who stay with SBC know that and yet they remain clueless about stuff going on? That taxes my brain to understand how that could be.

    Maybe it’s like how some people remain clueless about CJ? Willful ignorance?

  270. @ Abi Miah

    I can see that. When people say that the majority of southern baptists are non calvinists however I raise an eyebrow or two. They are not non calvinist in the same way that free will baptists are non calvinist, for example. So I am thinking that when hard core calvinism was presented to folks some of it had a tinge of the familiar; same ideas sort of but only with different explanations. This is the way in which I think that perhaps they were not entirely clueless, that they recognized some of their own thinking and to some extent embraced much of the theology.

    Now I get it about congregational style of church governance and how losing that took them by surprise, and I can see what you are saying. And perhaps comp was new, but the surety of eternal security for the elect was not a new idea-only the explanation of how people got to be the elect/chosen may have been new as in sovereign edict as opposed to foreknowledge. I don’t know, obviously, but in some aspects it looks to me like non calvinist baptist theology is a distant, or in some things not so distant, cousin of calvinism already.

  271. K.D. wrote:

    Did you ever teach high school?

    No but I deal with some theologians and pastors who are still stuck in 9th grade emotionally.

  272. @ okrapod:
    Quiet Revolution tactics. People sense something is different but the terminology is familiar but used with a different definition without declaring such. There is always a honeymoon period with new pastor or church plant. People are tolerant and forgiving and want to be cooperative.

    During this time there is usually a ‘move of the Holy Spirit” with the youth so everyone is elated. The 30 year old young pastor is cool and nice even if a bit immature but the older people say, he just needs to grow into it (while they pay him 80 grand)

    By this time a year has passed and Joe, who has never been a deacon, is a right hand guy and becomes one so he is all about loyalty. Shampoo rinse, repeat. Two years have passed and those who are more doctrinally and polity saavy left or are only attending SS. (That won’t last because as they say the church is not a smorgasbord and the pastor sermon is the most important event of your week)

    By this time, the young pastor has like minded staff cos others left without saying why so they can get other job in another church. Because as you know it is wrong to be negative at church about what is going on behind the scenes.

    The YRR Pastor has recruited his friends from Seminary to be interim in the slots. And for some reason the congregation goes along with just hiring them 6 mos later without the usual vetting and vote.

    The Takeover is almost complete. There are plenty of sermons about Brokenness, God’s sovereignty and elders. See when you are properly broken all the time you won’t be so hard to control.

    The pew sitters have already gone along with just about everything including staff getting rid of most of the activities or events that are led by lay people. The new leaders have better ideas and of course the staff is in charge of everything now.

    All of this would have been avoided if the candidate had just been honest and said I’m a calvinist who believes in Elder rule. But the candidate pretended to be one of them and took advantage of their goodness.

    Another tactic is to say I’m not one of those bad calvinist who take over churches actually I’m just a 4 pointer. Never mind that he graduated from Southern and loves John Piper sermons he cuts and pastes every week. But how would the average pewsitter who is not in that world recognize a Piper sermon?

    That is how it is done. By this time you have factions. You have the “positive all the time” people who don’t want to cause trouble, you have the people who went along for two years and are now seeing it and are unhappy but don’t want to say anything. And you have the staunch loyalists and of course the search committee which is trying to save face.

    What they all fail to come to grips with it has no longer become their Church. They just pay for everything.

    And what they also do not know is that the young calvinist Pastor has mentors who are counseling him every week who are associated with the movement either at convention level or the Seminary. Because there is no way this young head full of mush could have been this clever. And it is all done under the guise of building a healthy Church. Because, as you know, it was not a healthy Church before they got there. The YRR pastor came to the interview convinced the people in that church did not know the true gospel and he was on a mission from God.

    I have seen it play over and over in quite a few churches here. That is how it works.

  273. siteseer wrote:

    Maybe it’s like how some people remain clueless about CJ? Willful ignorance?

    Last night I spoke with an 18-year-old woman who takes classes at CLC. When I told her about what’s been going on there, she was shocked. She told me that from now on she will be much more alert to her surroundings.

    This is no case of “willful ignorance.” She has no particular loyalty to CLC. It bothered her that no one there informed her of CLC’s history. I don’t know if her case is typical, but I suspect that it is.

  274. @ Abi Miah:
    Yes and people who have invested considerable time and money are reluctant to leave even when they figure it out. In reality they are just prolonging their own misery but they don’t know that at the time.

    Early on, whistleblowers are met with derision as just negative. And the irony is even several years down the road Calvin was not mentioned once. And that is because Calvinism is the gospel.

  275. okrapod wrote:

    And perhaps comp was new, but the surety of eternal security for the elect was not a new idea-only the explanation of how people got to be the elect/chosen may have been new as in sovereign edict as opposed to foreknowledge. I don’t know, obviously, but in some aspects it looks to me like non calvinist baptist theology is a distant, or in some things not so distant, cousin of calvinism already.

    Right! Comp is not new it just becomes part of the Gospel and the focus is in the youth group first and foremost. No one usually disagrees with Sovereignty. Or more of a focus on sinning as in depravity.

    Every now and then I get phone calls from people from my old church. I received one several months ago from my old Sunday school teacher with whom I co taught. If there was anybody I thought would recognize it it would have been her. Her 11 year old son had made a profession of faith and was baptized several months earlier. But instead of Joy he was expressing almost in a nervous breakdown way, what a horrible sinner he was and how broken he was and he didn’t know if he was really saved.

    She felt like that as parents they had failed and what they told him about Jesus Christ. She is sort of the positive all the time type so I suggested she start checking out what he’s being taught in the youth group. To write down the names of the people they quote and check them out. Guess who the youth pastor had been preaching from? Arthur Pink! Sheesh! Let’s all just go slash our wrists and get it over with!

    So how come more youth not infected with this creepy brand of brokeness all the time? Because most of them are not paying attention, don’t care –but you get a deep-thinking kid and this stuff does a number on them.

    I don’t know what she did about it as I have not heard back from her.

  276. JeffB wrote:

    Last night I spoke with an 18-year-old woman who takes classes at CLC. When I told her about what’s been going on there, she was shocked. She told me that from now on she will be much more alert to her surroundings.

    This is no case of “willful ignorance.” She has no particular loyalty to CLC. It bothered her that no one there informed her of CLC’s history. I don’t know if her case is typical, but I suspect that it is.

    Jeff, I don’t doubt the average person who attends has not heard any of this. I would bet most people have no clue unless they tend to do a lot of reading/research. When I said willful ignorance, I was thinking in terms of those like Thabiti Anyabwile or Phil Johnson who ought to know but don’t want to know.

    I’m really glad your friend is aware now.

  277. We were members at CLC for over 20 years, Its always been a hush hush with anything the leaders can get in trouble for. When our daughter was sexually abused the first thing the pastor said was,do not call the Police.Then ask us to keep it on the quiet side. I would love to bring awareness to CLC. Maybe an awareness protest? any thoughts? JeffB wrote:

    siteseer wrote:
    Maybe it’s like how some people remain clueless about CJ? Willful ignorance?
    Last night I spoke with an 18-year-old woman who takes classes at CLC. When I told her about what’s been going on there, she was shocked. She told me that from now on she will be much more alert to her surroundings.
    This is no case of “willful ignorance.” She has no particular loyalty to CLC. It bothered her that no one there informed her of CLC’s history. I don’t know if her case is typical, but I suspect that it is.

  278. js wrote:

    If you only read two or three of the most prominent survivor blogs you would think all the abuse is going on in neo-Cal churches. This is demonstrably false with a five minute google search but that’s the impression you come away with.

    I think we’ve discussed this on an older thread with each other.

    This blog has covered abuse that takes place under other theological systems, churches, and denominations, such as I.F.B.-run schools for girls where girls were abused.

    You don’t like the emphasis on abuse by NeoCals, but they do sometimes discuss other groups. It seems as though Neo-Cal is one hot bed of abuse, where abuse is covered up or perpetuated.

    It could also be (probably not) that maybe Neo-Cal happens to bug or annoy Deb and Dee more so than other religious systems, which would still be okay, because it is their blog, and they can choose what they want to focus on the most, or whatever bugs them the most.

    I generally stay out of posts on topics that I find upsetting, or that maybe I don’t have strong feelings on, or I don’t feel I have much to say about (not just on this blog, but on other sites I visit). It’s been a good and workable strategy for me. 🙂

  279. js wrote:

    But when there is such a bias in place, it is like MSNBC and Republicans and FOX News and Democrats, I take what is said with a grain of salt.

    You could always start your own survivor blog and report on non-Neo-Cal churches or theological groups who abuse.

  280. dee wrote:

    it is becoming evident that you are not here to dialogue but to discredit us

    Someone by the name of “Buzz English” stopped by my ‘Miss Daisy’ blog to leave a comment asking in a round-about way if I think you guys here are bullies.

    He (or she, probably a he, I’d guess) referenced a site called “Wartburg Whiners,” which I had seen about a year ago. I just went there now, and their most recent post is about this post about C.J., where the author thinks you are opposed to CJ and/or TGC because they don’t support a “feminist gospel.”

    I left a reply to the “Buzz English” guy at my blog, and I asked him why he was bringing it up on my blog. I so far have not received any more correspondence from him. (He also left a similar post about your blog on another blog linked to from mine.)

  281. Dominic Palmer wrote:

    When our daughter was sexually abused the first thing the pastor said was,do not call the Police.Then ask us to keep it on the quiet side.

    I’m no attorney, but since child sex-abuse is a felony, it seems to me that those involved in a cover-up can be charged with complicity. True or not true?
    Those of you here at TWW with a legal background might want to weigh in on that one.
    Thanx!

  282. dee wrote:

    K.D. wrote:
    Did you ever teach high school?
    No but I deal with some theologians and pastors who are still stuck in 9th grade emotionally.

    I would say 7th….I’ve taught some pretty mature 9th graders.

  283. Daisy

    The Wartburg Whiners is wrtten by our old friend Jimmy aka Seneca Griggs. That is one creepy guy. He has been thrown off more blogs, including this one. He is one sad, old man. I bet even dogs don’t like him.

  284. okrapod wrote:

    What makes you think that the pew ain’t got a clue? Has some research been done, some poll, some study, some statistics or such?

    SBC doesn’t keep statistics like this … heck, you can’t even find out the theological affiliation of the 1,000 church planters SBC-NAMB has been putting on the field in recent years (although, most are reformed in my area – I’ve visited them). I have conducted an unofficial poll in my area by simply talking to folks I know from various SBC churches when I encounter them in the community. I ask them “Do you know that most SBC entities are now controlled by Calvinist leaders, that some LifeWay materials have Calvinist commentary, that there are young reformed pastors taking over churches by lying to pastor search committees about their theological leaning, that leading SBC seminaries are producing primarily Calvinist preachers, etc.?” All are shocked to learn this and they look at me like raccoons caught in auto headlights! Surprised to know this is going on in their beloved denomination, but it’s been going on for 10+ years! Church leaders at SBC’s 45,000+ churches are not having family talks to inform members of these developments. As long as the young reformers conform to the Baptist Faith & Message (a revision in 2000 provided lots of theological wiggle room), concerned traditional church pastors won’t touch the matter with a 10-foot pole to preserve denominational unity.

    Next time you bump into SBC “traditional” members at WalMart, you might consider taking your own unofficial poll. As to whether they really care or not, I’m finding that most don’t really give a big whoop as long as the social functions in their church are not affected. Apathy has set in. You can’t get many Southern Baptists these days to show up for prayer meetings, but they turn out in droves for chicken dinners! Thus, they are easy pickins’ for a New Calvinist takeover.

  285. @ Lydia:
    Bingo! Lydia has just described the Calvinist takeover of SBC churches in my region! If anyone wants the details on young reformer tactics to Calvinize the SBC, take a look at her comment. She describes the stealth and deception well. It’s as if the New Calvinists have a rule book out there somewhere on how to takeover a non-Calvinist church (most are in SBC) … perhaps a set of how-to plans delivered to them under cover of darkness just before they graduate from seminary.

  286. @ dee:

    Okay. I didn’t know that. (Or if I did, I forgot.) I’ve run into Griggs on a few other blogs over the past few months. He sometimes posts on Eagle’s blog.

  287. The unsafe environments of college campuses due to administrations ignoring/minimizing campus rape parallels the situation in the church where it becomes a safe place for perpetrators and unsafe for those vulnerable due to the apathy or subversiveness of church leadership.

    In both situations, yes, money is involved.

    Two recent articles report that for universities covering up campus rape, there are now warnings to students to NOT attend:
    http://bit.ly/X0lXS2
    http://bit.ly/1Vck295

    Perhaps church attendees should be warned about the dangers of churches where the leadership ignores or minimizes criminal abuse among members. Why would anyone subject their family to this? It doesn’t make sense. It seems neither wholesome nor healthy. The church is an institution of voluntary attendees, last I heard.

  288. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    leading into the credits is a series of four screens with column after column of place names where investigations into Catholic diocese systems happened after the Boston Globe ran their Spotlight team’s story.

    As corrections to what I wrote earlier about Spotlight, just before the screens with all the names, it states: “Major abuse scandals have been uncovered in the following places:” It does not state that these were all within the Catholic church as I’d mistakenly thought, and does not say that all of the scandals were uncovered after the Spotlight report was published in the Boston Globe.

    I apologize for my mistake — I just re-watched the movie and felt it was important to note these corrections as soon as possible.

  289. @ Lydia@ Lydia:
    “Quiet Revolution tactics. … ”
    BEEN THERE

    “There is always a honeymoon period with new pastor or church plant. People are tolerant and forgiving and want to be cooperative.”
    ✓ CHECK MARK

    “The 30 year old young pastor is cool and nice even if a bit immature but the older people say, he just needs to grow into it (while they pay him 80 grand)”
    ✓ CHECK MARK (65 grand)

    “Two years have passed and those who are more doctrinally and polity saavy left or are only attending SS. ”
    ✓ CHECK MARK

    “By this time, the young pastor has like minded staff cos others left without saying why so they can get other job in another church. Because as you know it is wrong to be negative at church about what is going on behind the scenes.”
    ✓ CHECK MARK

    “The YRR Pastor has recruited his friends from Seminary to be interim in the slots. And for some reason the congregation goes along with just hiring them 6 mos later without the usual vetting and vote.”
    ✓ CHECK MARK (not YRR but everything else fits)

    “The pew sitters have already gone along with just about everything including staff getting rid of most of the activities or events that are led by lay people. The new leaders have better ideas and of course the staff is in charge of everything now.”
    ✓ CHECK MARK

    “That is how it is done. By this time you have factions. You have the “positive all the time” people who don’t want to cause trouble, you have the people who went along for two years and are now seeing it and are unhappy but don’t want to say anything. And you have the staunch loyalists and of course the search committee which is trying to save face.”
    ✓ CHECK MARK

    “What they all fail to come to grips with it has no longer become their Church. They just pay for everything.”
    ✓ CHECK MARK

  290. Deb and Dee, I know this is a subject you’ve tackled before on your blog.

    I didn’t know if you would want to address this article that was put on Christian Post not too long ago:

    Which Do You Need More, Counseling or Repentance?
    http://www.christianpost.com/news/which-do-you-need-more-counseling-or-repentance-161717/

    Most of what I’m reading seems to be anti-counseling.

    Snippets from the page:
    ———-
    by Shane Idleman

    Too many are choosing therapy over obedience, counseling over conduct, and talking over doing.

    An African pastor was asked, “Why is there so much counseling in the American church but not in the African church?”

    He responded, “In America you counsel; in Africa we repent.”

    …but I do want to remind you that God makes provision for all of our needs through a relationship with Him and obedience to His Word.

    Counseling with those skilled in the Word is invaluable, and desperately needed, but all the counseling in the world will not work if the heart is not right.
    ——————
    I used to have clinical depression and anxiety. I used to read a lot of books by Christians about depression and anxiety, and they said much the same thing this guy did.

    This sort of view had the result of making me feel guilty for trying any method other than spirituality only (eg, prayer, Bible reading). The spiritual-only method didn’t help me at all.

    I don’t mean to suggest that any Christians who are hurting from mental health problems give up all prayer or Bible reading if it helps them in some way, but I’m concerned for anyone out there who reads that stuff and feels bad about seeing a psychologist or taking medication.

    That guy’s article seems to imply that if you do have some kind of mental health problem that it’s probably due to personal sin.

    That is just not the case with some people. It’s more victim-blaming and might keep a person “stuck” in their condition, when they do need to see some kind of mental health professional or maybe take medication.

  291. @ Bill M:
    It is uncanny. I have seen it, been told about over and over.

    It is nothing more than deceptively taking advantage of the good graces and tolerance of Christians for personal gain.

  292. brian wrote:

    Oh look they are already setting up for next year http://2017.thegospelcoalition.org/

    Tim Keller’s talk on “Boasting in Nothing Except the Cross” should be interesting since New Calvinists don’t preach about the Cross of Christ much! I once heard Keller respond to a question at the end of a talk – a young man essentially inquiring “What must I do to be saved?” Keller stumbled through an answer that was anything but the Gospel. Some Calvinists dodge predestination and determinist God mumbo-jumbo when put on the spot, as if they don’t really believe what they preach.

  293. Lydia wrote:

    It is nothing more than deceptively taking advantage of the good graces and tolerance of Christians for personal gain.

    Yes, church members tend to trust pastors … surely, a pastor wouldn’t deceive them! The problem with deception is that you don’t know you are deceived because you are deceived. These are days for the pew to open their eyes and not blindly trust just any man of the cloth. The church is a changin’ and the change agents will lie their way into the pulpit to gain access to the widow’s mite for personal agenda, not the cause of Christ.

  294. Daisy wrote:

    Most of what I’m reading seems to be anti-counseling.

    I work in mental health, so I have a huge issue with this anti-counseling thing…why is there this assumption that people need counseling because they have something to repent?

    I can think of a ton of reasons from brain chemistry to assault that you might need counseling for something that was done to you.

    Now the ‘sex addicts’ that claim to need counseling to fix it may just need to stop it, but I think it’s mostly because they were the ones doing wrong in the first place. This line disturbs me:

    “I’m not discounting the deep emotional and psychological pain of bondage to sin, or emotional trauma”

    Bondage to sin and emotional trauma are NOT the same thing! No wonder the abused are getting horrible, horrible advice at church!

  295. Max wrote:

    Tim Keller’s talk on “Boasting in Nothing Except the Cross” should be interesting since New Calvinists don’t preach about the Cross of Christ much!

    Listen to Keller’s response to a simple question “What is the Gospel?” on the 5-minute video clip at the end of my comment. And we wonder why the young, restless and reformed are so messed up when it comes to knowing and delivering gospel truth! This guy is one of the New Calvinist idols! He had the perfect opportunity to preach the Gospel – folks in that audience may never sit under a preacher again. But they left there with the same question “What is the Gospel?” since Keller circled around the question with intellectual gyrations and left them confused. Nothing about belief, repentance, accepting Christ. The Gospel really is simple enough for a child to understand – Calvinists and their systematic theology make it much too complicated. These guys preach from reformed law, not from life in Christ.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0g-s4Qhtyk

  296. Max wrote:

    Max wrote:

    Tim Keller’s talk on “Boasting in Nothing Except the Cross” should be interesting since New Calvinists don’t preach about the Cross of Christ much!

    Listen to Keller’s response to a simple question “What is the Gospel?” on the 5-minute video clip at the end of my comment. And we wonder why the young, restless and reformed are so messed up when it comes to knowing and delivering gospel truth! This guy is one of the New Calvinist idols! He had the perfect opportunity to preach the Gospel – folks in that audience may never sit under a preacher again. But they left there with the same question “What is the Gospel?” since Keller circled around the question with intellectual gyrations and left them confused. Nothing about belief, repentance, accepting Christ. The Gospel really is simple enough for a child to understand – Calvinists and their systematic theology make it much too complicated. These guys preach from reformed law, not from life in Christ.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0g-s4Qhtyk

    I can’t speak to his recent musings on the matter, despite being a member of a redeemer plant in the area. Time was he had that answer in a succinct, well put statement of the gospel being understanding that you were simultaneously more sinful and loves by God than you ever imagined. The whole clc/sgm/acts 29/(insert reformed scandal here) has been sad on many levels, one of which is that a guy (Keller) I had a lot of respect for seems to not be bothered by any of it. If he pulled his weight from these organizations, it’d be a huge blow, but he hasn’t so the beat goes on. I’m at the point now when people bring up his books, sermons, etc I just bite my tongue and tune the person out.

  297. Andrew wrote:

    I’m at the point now when people bring up his books, sermons, etc I just bite my tongue and tune the person out.

    The SBC-YRR church planters in my area use his books a lot in weekly small group meetings.

  298. Andrew wrote:

    The whole clc/sgm/acts 29/(insert reformed scandal here) has been sad on many levels, one of which is that a guy (Keller) I had a lot of respect for seems to not be bothered by any of it.

    Good Lord, those are the folks buying his books!

  299. Lydia wrote:

    It is uncanny.

    When you mentioned “recruited his friends from Seminary” it struck me how much was true of my former church.

  300. K.D. wrote:

    I would say 7th….I’ve taught some pretty mature 9th graders.

    True, but I’ve taught grades 7-9. It’s been my experience that 9th graders are much more sneaky and conniving!

  301. Lea wrote:

    why is there this assumption that people need counseling because they have something to repent?

    Having spent a good deal of time getting a non-profit up and running that does counseling and education I’ve seen a lot of misunderstanding. While many cast judgement on those seeking counseling others eschew counseling for themselves with the statement “I’m not crazy”. It is as if we still live in the dark ages and sickness is the work of demons, there is a lot to overcome.

  302. Daisy wrote:

    Too many are choosing therapy over obedience, counseling over conduct, and talking over doing.
    An African pastor was asked, “Why is there so much counseling in the American church but not in the African church?”
    He responded, “In America you counsel; in Africa we repent.”
    …but I do want to remind you that God makes provision for all of our needs through a relationship with Him and obedience to His Word.
    Counseling with those skilled in the Word is invaluable, and desperately needed, but all the counseling in the world will not work if the heart is not right.

    ????????????? What? This guy believes:
    Children who have been abused need to “repent”?
    Women who are being abused need to “repent”?
    Soldiers with PTSD need to “repent”?
    Parents who have lost their children and people who have lost their spouses at a young age need to “repent”?
    People who are having a hard time coping due to loss of limbs or paralization need to “repent”?

    What does a 3-year-old who has been sexually abused need to “repent” of??????

  303. Max wrote:

    The SBC-YRR church planters in my area use his books a lot in weekly small group meetings.

    Hey. Who needs a Bible when you have books written by Keller and his pals!?
    : (

  304. Lydia wrote:

    She felt like that as parents they had failed and what they told him about Jesus Christ. She is sort of the positive all the time type so I suggested she start checking out what he’s being taught in the youth group. To write down the names of the people they quote and check them out. Guess who the youth pastor had been preaching from? Arthur Pink! Sheesh! Let’s all just go slash our wrists and get it over with!

    A.W.Pink?
    Who achieved the Theoretical End State of Protestantism, The One True Church of One?
    Worshipping at home every Sunday because ALL churches were Apostate and/or Heretic and he was the Only One of The Truly Elect? The Only One whose Theology was Perfectly Parsed & Utterly Correct?

  305. Bill M wrote:

    “recruited his friends from Seminary”

    Certainly! The young reformers want elder boards of like-mind … and you don’t get any more like-minded than your seminary buddies who were indoctrinated in reformed theology along with you.

    “But Rehoboam rejected the advice of the older men and instead asked the opinion of the young men who had grown up with him and were now his advisers” (1 Kings 12:8).

    The above Old Testament passage presents an interesting parallel with the New Calvinist movement. Young King Rehoboam rejected the counsel of Solomon’s advisors. Think about it, the wisest man who ever lived had counselors and the young whippersnapper turned them away to listen to the young men he had gone to school with. If you continue to read the story, you’ll find that it didn’t turn well for Rehoboam or the church! And it ain’t going to turn out well where the youth group is running the church today.

  306. Lydia wrote:

    So how come more youth not infected with this creepy brand of brokeness all the time? Because most of them are not paying attention, don’t care –but you get a deep-thinking kid and this stuff does a number on them.

    I was one of those “deep-thinking kids”. Though I wasn’t exposed to the Word of Calvin, The Gospel According To Jack Chick and Hal Lindsay did a similar number on me some 40 years ago. And the damage never completely heals. I understand psychologists & counselors advise “deep-thinking kids” and Aspies to stay away from “certain types of religious movements” for just that reason.

  307. Max wrote:

    Andrew wrote:
    I’m at the point now when people bring up his books, sermons, etc I just bite my tongue and tune the person out.
    The SBC-YRR church planters in my area use his books a lot in weekly small group meetings.

    There’s no mandated books to use for our small groups (thankfully), so some use them, some don’t, there’s a pretty wide variety of material that gets used (within a range of orthodoxy, some from calvinist and non-calvinists) so I’m glad we don’t have a huge group think issue. I don’t know how common that is, maybe we’re unique among PCA churches in that regard.

  308. Lydia wrote:

    @ Abi Miah:
    Yes and people who have invested considerable time and money are reluctant to leave even when they figure it out. In reality they are just prolonging their own misery but they don’t know that at the time.

    Sunk-Cost Fallacy.
    The key to a successful swindle.
    Get the mark so financially and emotionally invested in the con game that he CAN’T back out, even when he KNOWS he’s being taken to the cleaners. Because backing out not only means writing off all that $$$, it means admitting to himself that he got conned. Work the con right and the marks will even close ranks to defend the con man.

    Early on, whistleblowers are met with derision as just negative. And the irony is even several years down the road Calvin was not mentioned once. And that is because Calvinism is the gospel.

    There is no Christ; there is only CALVIN.
    CALVIN who has God All Figured Out!

  309. Nancy2 wrote:

    Who needs a Bible when you have books written by Keller and his pals!?

    Actually the only Bible the young reformers need are Paul’s epistles – particularly Romans and Ephesians. They love to take passages out of context in Paul’s writings to support their theology. If you are a YRR pastor, you don’t want church members reading the Gospels – you try to steer them through Paul … Paul would be appalled at how they’ve twisted his words!

  310. Max wrote:

    I once heard Keller respond to a question at the end of a talk – a young man essentially inquiring “What must I do to be saved?” Keller stumbled through an answer that was anything but the Gospel. Some Calvinists dodge predestination and determinist God mumbo-jumbo when put on the spot, as if they don’t really believe what they preach.

    I found this article on Keller’s different doctrines for different audiences instructive: “Tim Keller: Private Calvinist, Public Arminian” https://atheologyintension.wordpress.com/2013/03/17/2352/

  311. Nancy2 wrote:

    Children who have been abused need to “repent”?

    They do believe this stuff. That pastor in KY (?) was blaming some 13 yo for being raped at knifepoint, because she ‘participated’ or something.

    This is the insanity we’re dealing with, apparently. Those are the types of people who need to be ‘shunned’.

  312. Max wrote:

    okrapod wrote:

    a contender for the throne

    A new Calvin, already sitting on a throne in the new Geneva (Louisville). On the very apex of the pyramid called New Calvinism. The MAN above all others; a primary influencer idolized by an army of young, restless and reformed!

    Where have we seen this before?
    As in Fuehrerprinzip of Political Mass Movements?

  313. andrew wrote:

    There’s no mandated books to use for our small groups (thankfully), so some use them, some don’t, there’s a pretty wide variety of material that gets used (within a range of orthodoxy, some from calvinist and non-calvinists) so I’m glad we don’t have a huge group think issue. I don’t know how common that is, maybe we’re unique among PCA churches in that regard.

    Your PCA church may be unique in that regard. The multiple PCA churches in my city push Crossway resources from Keller, Piper, Platt, Tripp, etc. pretty heavily. However, there is leeway to do otherwise for those individuals who are comfortable with the social pressure of being nonconformist.

  314. JohnD wrote:

    Max wrote:
    I once heard Keller respond to a question at the end of a talk – a young man essentially inquiring “What must I do to be saved?” Keller stumbled through an answer that was anything but the Gospel. Some Calvinists dodge predestination and determinist God mumbo-jumbo when put on the spot, as if they don’t really believe what they preach.
    I found this article on Keller’s different doctrines for different audiences instructive: “Tim Keller: Private Calvinist, Public Arminian” https://atheologyintension.wordpress.com/2013/03/17/2352/

    to be fair, I’ve heard him preach on the matter, and while he might have strident views privately, I don’t think you’ll hear him claim that calvinism is the gospel. He’ll say that there is a mystery and a tension between free will and determinism, which I respect.

  315. @ Andrew:
    I hear you. I think it is the national platform and money. You should hear his wife talking about comp Doctrine. It is so tortured I almost feel sorry for her. It is like she is trying to sell something she does not believe in at all

  316. @ Max:
    Exactly! They must proof text the Gospels for us because they are downright dangerous reading. We might discover we don’t need them anymore.

  317. Lea wrote:

    I work in mental health, so I have a huge issue with this anti-counseling thing…why is there this assumption that people need counseling because they have something to repent?

    I understood the article to mean they were advocating repentance in place of counseling, because to them, all mental health problems are a person’s fault (due to some sin they have done).

  318. On SBCVoices, Dave Miller wrote “Grace, Sexual Predation, and dealing with the Past”. He basically said lets ignore the past …… have the “grace” to let go of abuse that happened in the past.
    I commented:
    “When two consenting adults engage in inappropriate sexual behaviors, it is a sin. Child sexual abuse is not only a sin, but also a crime.
    Those who cover child sex abuse up and keep it hush hush aid and abet the criminal and the criminal act. Aiding and abetting is a crime, too.”
    My comment will probably get deleted, even if I did state the truth!

  319. Bill M wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    It is uncanny.
    When you mentioned “recruited his friends from Seminary” it struck me how much was true of my former church.

    It’s called being “like-minded.” The leader “needs” other leaders who are “like-minded,” you know, because CEOs and politicians tend to bring on their own teams and they are great leaders to emulate, right? Anyone who isn’t “like minded” is a person who “doesn’t like change” and can be disregarded and if necessary, discarded.

  320. Lydia wrote:

    You should hear his wife talking about comp Doctrine. It is so tortured I almost feel sorry for her. It is like she is trying to sell something she does not believe in at all

    New Calvinist women are oppressed, but they have to go along to get along. When I visit SBC-YRR church plants in my area, I don’t discern freedom in Christ – particularly among the women. You can see the oppression on their countenance. Whom the Son sets free are free indeed … so many folks in the reformed movement are still bondage. Why would anyone in their right mind fall for this? Of course, that is the problem – those ensnared in the new reformation aren’t in their right spiritual mind.

  321. Abi Miah wrote:

    The leader “needs” other leaders who are “like-minded,” you know, because CEOs and politicians tend to bring on their own teams and they are great leaders to emulate, right? Anyone who isn’t “like minded” is a person who “doesn’t like change” and can be disregarded and if necessary, discarded.

    Fist to the nose and under the bus.

  322. Lea wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:

    Children who have been abused need to “repent”?

    They do believe this stuff. That pastor in KY (?) was blaming some 13 yo for being raped at knifepoint, because she ‘participated’ or something.

    This is the insanity we’re dealing with, apparently. Those are the types of people who need to be ‘shunned’.

    If not stoned to death (or otherwise Honor-Killed) for being such a whore.
    “The-God Is Most-Great!”

  323. Max wrote:

    Actually the only Bible the young reformers need are Paul’s epistles – particularly Romans and Ephesians.

    And Calvin’s Institutes, which like Late Great Planet Earth supersedes all the rest.

  324. Max wrote:

    Actually the only Bible the young reformers need are Paul’s epistles – particularly Romans and Ephesians. They love to take passages out of context in Paul’s writings to support their theology.

    I’ve written here and elsewhere that the parallels between this dynamic and what Wahhabi Islam has done with their Qur’an are striking.

  325. Daisy wrote:

    I understood the article to mean they were advocating repentance in place of counseling, because to them, all mental health problems are a person’s fault (due to some sin they have done).

    Which is stupid.

  326. Nancy2 wrote:

    Children who have been abused need to “repent”?
    Women who are being abused need to “repent”?
    Soldiers with PTSD need to “repent”?
    Parents who have lost their children and people who have lost their spouses at a young age need to “repent”?
    People who are having a hard time coping due to loss of limbs or paralization need to “repent”?

    This sounds like “When All You Have is a Hammer…” and/or someone with snake oil to sell.

  327. Muff Potter wrote:

    Max wrote:

    Actually the only Bible the young reformers need are Paul’s epistles – particularly Romans and Ephesians. They love to take passages out of context in Paul’s writings to support their theology.

    I’ve written here and elsewhere that the parallels between this dynamic and what Wahhabi Islam has done with their Qur’an are striking.

    Which is why I’m wondering why the YRRs don’t go all the way and say the Shahada.
    Why drink Determinism & Patriarchy & Follow the Rules watered-down when they could get it straight on the rocks with Wahabi Shari’a? With the additional bonus feature of legal harem polygyny!

  328. Lea wrote:

    Daisy wrote:

    I understood the article to mean they were advocating repentance in place of counseling, because to them, all mental health problems are a person’s fault (due to some sin they have done).

    Which is stupid.

    Not just stupid, but harmful. Which I know you get.

  329. @ Nancy2:
    I saddled up and have one in moderation.

    Do you see the trick that’s going on over there? The focus is on the autonomy of churches when it comes to dealing with child sex abuse.

    But what on Earth does that have to do with an SBC entity employee? Does Al Mohler have autonomy?

  330. siteseer wrote:

    js wrote:

    maybe CJ was not involved in the cover-up.

    js, what about CJ is so important to you that you must go to such lengths to keep thinking he must be innocent? At what point will you become objective? Will it somehow damage your faith if CJ is not what you want him to be? Why are you so invested in his innocence that you are willing to overlook everything that points to his guilt? I am just curious.

    Notice first of all the word “maybe” in my quote. I do not assume CJ is innocent, I just do not have definitive proof that he is guilty. There is circumstantial evidence of him participating in a cover-up but I am not sure whether CJ knew or not. I am saying nothing more than that, I am not assuming his guilt based on the circumstantial evidence.

    It will not damage my faith in the least if CJ is found guilty of everything he’s been accused of. I am not a particularly big fan of CJ. I have read two of his books and listened to him speak maybe five times on podcast and once in person (I did go to t4g 2010).

    I am not willing to look away from the circumstantial evidence but I do not think it proves definitively that CJ covered up sexual abuse. Since CJ has denied covering up sexual abuse I will withhold my judgment of his guilt until definitive evidence appears one way or the other.

  331. @ Nancy2:
    Here is Dave Miller on his churches sexual misconduct policy:

    “The process wouldn’t change much whether it was “another woman” or a child.

    The difference would be in reporting. If it was a minor, the authorities would be involved. They do not care much about what they tend to view as an affair.

    However, both would likely lead to lawsuits.”

    You cannot make this stuff up

  332. js wrote:

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/11/07/a-closer-look-at-pastors-in-the-arc/
    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/11/05/building-the-arc-an-overview-of-this-church-planting-network/
    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/06/26/personal-experiences-with-arcs-lifeway-church-of-milwaukee-wisconsin/
    There is a special focus on Neo-Cals here.

    I would agree that there’s a special focus on Neo-Cals here. And why do you think that is? I believe it’s because they insist that their theology, their doctrine is superior to all other Christian camps. They believe that *Calvinism IS the gospel* and PUBLICLY proclaim it. They believe that if ALL Christians would only become Calvinists, there would be a much greater concern for the gospel and evangelism. And many of them believe that the type of problems that exist within their Reformed/Calvinist churches is far less detrimental than the problems that exist in other non-Reformed/Calvinist churches. I believe they have a blind spot when it comes to the condition of their churches and willful blindness is a huge contributing factor.

    So, when a substantial segment of Christianity puts forth that THEY possess the gospel and their systematic theology is THE GOSPEL, and THEY have the answers for all the theological questions…then a SPOTLIGHT should be shone on them. When child sexual abuse, domestic violence, avarice within leadership, adultery within leadership, lording it over the sheep with power and control, etc. exists within Neo-Cal systems, they should be exposed and held accountable.

  333. dee wrote:

    js wrote:

    My doubt is that you would run a headline on the front page with the fall of an ARC pastor of similar stature to Patrick. It is my opinion and I may be wrong but I think it is one place where your bias shows.

    Take the time and read this blog before you open your uninformed mouth.

    In fact I did put the affair of Dino Rizzo, ARC pastor, at the top of this blog and wrote about it. The same goes for Bill Gothard and a myriad of others.

    This blog has covered a sex abuse case in the Mennonite Church involving John Yoder, the antics of Ed Young Jr, Doug Phillips, Mark Driscoll, Jack Schaap, etc.

    Keep making statements like this and you will be banned because it is becoming evident that you are not here to dialogue but to discredit us and you are doing a singularly bad job at it.

    I have been a regular reader for at least three years. I never said you didn’t cover others. I was not aware of Rizzo in the headline so I will take back what I said about ARC. I do think the YRR get a disproportionate amount of attention here but that is my opinion and is obviously not shared by you. It is your blog and you can post what you want, of course. I appreciate the opportunity to disagree when I think there is an issue. I am not trying to discredit you at all. I think you have done much good work.

  334. Lydia wrote:

    @ js:
    And that is the problem with insider whistleblowers. How else does information become known about operations in a closed system?
    Detwiler missed his calling because I have never seen such massuve archived and detailed documentation in all my life.
    None of this means Detwieler was not a Shepherding cult leader. But he paid a very high price: Financial ruin.

    Here’s the thing…the best way (not the only way of course) for a church and/or cult to be exposed for wrongdoing is for one of the devoted, loyal members to come to their senses, leave, and then talk about what went on there. I do those who leave should admit to their participation in the wrongdoing, *if* that is the case. As many know on this site, I came out of a toxic Christian cult and had to come to terms with the whys and wherefores. I, like many others in that cult, had to recognize the ways in which we participated in the wrongdoing. Some, more than others, bear greater responsibility for their participation in that wrongdoing. As for Brent Detweiler, if he did know about the cover-up of child sexual abuse, it seems puzzling to me that no one has exposed him on this matter.

  335. Bridget wrote:

    js wrote:

    Maybe some of you have more information or can see other possibilities, but from my perspective Brent Detwiler is a key figure. The fact that he hasn’t released any damning proof, when he documented everything else so carefully and has it all published on his website, leads me to believe that despite all his other faults, maybe CJ was not involved in the cover-up.

    Detwiler has stated that CJ did not inform him of the sexual abuse issues, maybe because CJ knew Brent would turn the perps over to the police. Brent was involved in one such issue in a church he pastored and he contacted the police.

    So Detwiler says CJ did not inform him of the issues. But how then does Detwiler know that CJ himself knew? And if he was informed of CJ’s knowledge by someone else, why does this information not show up on the hundreds of pages on Detwiler’s website? To be clear, I am not saying any of this proves CJ’s innocence, but to me it brings some doubt into what could otherwise be an open and shut case.

  336. dee wrote:

    @ Lea:
    His real message is “I know it is offensive but I think CJ is as pure as the driven snow.

    Totally unfair. I have stated repeatedly I do not know if CJ is innocent or guilty.

  337. BL wrote:

    js wrote:

    you would think all the abuse is going on in neo-Cal churches. This is demonstrably false with a five minute google search but that’s the impression you come away with.

    So, demonstrate it.

    OK. If this gets out of moderation, you’ll see it. Took less than five minutes start to finish. All stories from the last six months, just the first four results on my search, no editing on my part. I got these results when I entered the search “pastor arrested for sex abuse.” Some of these pastors are clearly not neo-Cal no proof that any of them are neo-Cal. Each story is tragic no matter the denomination.

    http://whnt.com/2015/12/19/south-alabama-pastor-arrested-on-charges-of-sexual-abuse/

    http://keyetv.com/news/local/round-rock-pastor-arrested-for-sexual-abuse-of-youth-church-member

    http://www.wkyt.com/content/news/Sexual-abuse-case-against-Powell-County-pastor-sent-to-grand-jury-363751591.html

    http://www.wtva.com/news/Alabama_pastor_arrested_for_sexual_abuse_of_children.html

  338. http://sbcvoices.com/sample-employee-misconduct-policies/#comment-316976

    If you read this thread you will see that not only does Dave Miller’s Church put sexual predators/child torturers into the same category as adultery but also has a process where the pastor is told first!

    For the life of me, I cannot understand why a nursery worker, for example, cannot just call the authorities, first, before anything else.

    In his process he has it so the member/worker tells the pastor first then the pastor calls the lawyer and the insurance company and finally, number 3, is call the authorities!

    My only guess is that the pastor gets to make the determination whether the authorities need to be called or not. Which has been a problem with every policy I have seen come out of TGC.

  339. dee wrote:

    @ js:
    So, you are the one who gets to decide that Darrin Patrick is a *secondary* leader in spite of his position with Acts 29 and the leader of a much admired Calvinista church? Of yeah, and he was supposed to be a speaker at the CBMW *testosterone* conference before T4G.

    You spin it well but we read… a lot. For example, look at how much he has posted at The Gospel Coalition website. https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/search/results/RGFycmluIFBhdHJpY2s

    Also, Russ Moore is so gosh darned worried about these Neo Cal fails that he had to write a post telling people to “nothing to see about out theology-move along now.” post

    http://www.russellmoore.com/2016/04/15/what-to-do-when-a-pastor-falls/

    Once again, you are definitely one of the boys and it is becoming quite clear. You accuse us of bias? Well what about your buddies at TGC, CBMW, T4G, etc.?

    Who Patrick is in matters of YRR importance is just a matter of opinion. I say secondary because when I ask myself the question who are the 5-10 most prominent figures in the YRR movement, Patrick is not on my list. This is an opinion question and we have differing opinions based on the criteria we have set to evaluate the issue. Since you have shown that you have posted on Rizzo before the issue is moot anyway.

  340. Lydia wrote:

    For the life of me, I cannot understand why a nursery worker, for example, cannot just call the authorities, first, before anything else.

    I think they want to control things? At least, how it gets out.

    I can sort of understand calling everybody at once? If I were working somewhere and discovered something that someone was doing wrong, I would probably call in my boss, unless they were the one doing the wrong thing? But we have systems in place where you have other people you can call for misconduct – even anonymously. And there are good reasons for that.

    I think in a church if you discovered something like abuse you should call the authorities, then the pastor. Or call everybody at once, at least.

  341. @ Lydia:

    You can definitely tell that a lot of that policy is written from a CYA perspective…(call the lawyer, call the insurance company, etc)

  342. @ Darlene:
    JS was simply using a deflection tactic. I personally think Detwiler was a leader in a closed system shepherding cult. But I think it was a great thing making public those SGM documents whether he intended to or not.

    That cult operated in such a closed manner that had it not been for that, I think they could have very well Braved the storm of the victims stories. I think that place was that evil and still is. Part of the evil moved to Louisville to set up shop. Mahaney was recruiting Church planters for Sovereign Grace at T$G!!! Will these Church plants be receiving SBC funds? I suppose we’ll never know since the SBC (ed.) is now operating in a closed manner in its entities. Thank you Al Mohler

    Detwiler has paid a very high price to get out of that shepherding call and go against Mahaney publicly. Mahaney is living it up on stage raking in the Bucks

  343. @ Lea:
    They even have links to policies over there under the heading “protect your ministry”.

    They are so far gone they can’t even see it.

  344. @ Lea:
    No matter where you are, you call the authorities first when you have a suspicion or there is an accusation. There is an Anonymous hotline for this very reason. People are afraid of getting in trouble.

  345. Lydia wrote:

    @ Lea:
    No matter where you are, you call the authorities first when you have a suspicion or there is an accusation. There is an Anonymous hotline for this very reason. People are afraid of getting in trouble.

    For child abuse, yes. But if something happens at work, I would call in other people as well, just to be around even. But not if they were involved. I guess that’s what I’m saying. From that sense, it makes sense to call the pastor to be around when the cops get there. That’s probably what I would do, if I trusted them. Not from a ‘let him decide if we should call the police about this child abuse that just happened’ perspective.

    And yes I saw that ‘protect you ministry” bit. So much is written from that perspective. [the please don’t call talking to your pastor/church staff ‘counseling’ bit, since people might think we have a license or something]

  346. Melody wrote:

    Js many of us see Brent’s testimony as one source, not the whole picture. There are multiple sources that testify to CJ Mahaney knowing of their children’s abuse. The conviction of Nate Moraies and the testimony in court suggests his leadership team was involved in a child sex (ed.) abuse coverup. Your idea that we all base all our opinion on one source is unfounded.

    Melody, what you say here reminds me of the Scott Peterson trial, where Peterson was arrested, tried, and convicted of murdering his wife, Laci. In this way I see the similarity. There were multiple pieces of evidence, that by themselves would not have brought a guilty verdict. But all the evidence compiled together, along with the timeline of events occurring prior to and after Laci Peterson’s disappearance, and Scott Peterson’s behavior during this time, ALL of these things pointed to Scott Peterson having murdered his wife.

  347. Lea wrote:

    Which is stupid.

    I may have been misunderstanding the author’s perspective a bit.

    He did say he sees a need for biblical counseling (or however he put it).

    However, I would take it he only endorses “nouthetic”- type counseling, which ends up being, “You’re in pain because of your own sin.”

    I guess his view is a fine distinction without a difference: tell people their mental health problems are due to their sin, so they need to repent. I guess it all comes back to the same thing.

  348. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    This sounds like “When All You Have is a Hammer…” and/or someone with snake oil to sell.

    There might be some shame and stigma attached to mental health problems in American culture generally and Christian culture specifically.

    In my own family (most are Christians), I’ve been shamed and criticized for admitting to being (emotionally) weak at times and reaching out for friendship / moral support. I’m supposed to suck that stuff down, pretend that I am fine.

    I detect what I think is a little of that attitude in those articles, where Christians shame other Christians for needing anything or anyone outside of Jesus Christ, the Bible, or prayer.

    You’re not supposed to be weak, if you are, never admit it. You’re supposed to be wholly independent, be tough, and pick yourself up by the bootstraps. That seems to be part of it.

    Also, the odd paranoid fear or dislike of psychology and psychiatry is probably at work as well.

  349. Daisy wrote:

    Also, the odd paranoid fear or dislike of psychology and psychiatry is probably at work as well.

    And I don’t really get this at all. I think people have a weird idea of what therapy actually is, maybe.

  350. @ Lea:

    I should have mentioned medication too, which people seem to be afraid of. Depending on your particular issue, you may not need medication but if you have psychotic depression for instance, like a friend did, you can’t just get better with some exercise (which has pretty good clinical results for mild depression).

    Certainly ‘repenting’ isn’t going to help if your issue is that someone attacked you.

  351. Andrew wrote:

    Time was he had that answer in a succinct, well put statement of the gospel

    When a man like Dr. Keller has trouble articulating what the Gospel is, there is something desperately wrong with the man and the movement he has attached himself to. He has made good contributions to the Body of Christ in the past and should not be hanging out with these guys. When the New Calvinism bubble breaks (and it will) the good Dr. Keller will fade into the sunset with other NC elites, whose agendas have been exposed and failed. He needs to repent and distance himself as soon as possible from New Calvinism – it ain’t the Calvinism he grew up with.

  352. Lydia wrote:

    If you read this thread you will see that not only does Dave Miller’s Church put sexual predators/child torturers into the same category as adultery but also has a process where the pastor is told first!

    That makes me so angry, and it seems to be a common view.

    ‘Pro-Rape’ Pastor Compares Sodomizing A Child To Stealing Candy
    http://www.inquisitr.com/3001839/pro-rape-pastor-compares-sodomizing-a-child-to-stealing-candy-theyre-both-sins/

    Pastor Michael Orten of the Truth Apostolic Church in Madisonville, Kentucky, is being called “pro-rape” after he not only hired a man convicted of raping a 13-year-old girl but then proceeded to defend the man’s crimes, likening the forcible rape of a young girl at knifepoint to stealing candy.

    Orten also inferred that the child who his employee raped while holding a razor blade to her throat somehow bore equal responsibility in her own violent assault, saying that it “takes two to tango.”

  353. JohnD wrote:

    “Tim Keller: Private Calvinist, Public Arminian”

    Thanks for the link, JohnD. I’ll take a look at it. That title alone tells me a lot about why Keller is so strange these days. Being stretched by two distinctly different theologies when it comes to God’s plan of salvation is a tension that will drive a minister loony-tune. Just stop straddling the fence and get in one pasture or the other! If you’re not sure what you believe, go to the wilderness for a while and seek God’s face.

  354. Daisy wrote:

    Orten also inferred that the child who his employee raped while holding a razor blade to her throat somehow bore equal responsibility in her own violent assault, saying that it “takes two to tango.”

    That part was incredibly vile.

  355. Lea wrote:

    And I don’t really get this at all. I think people have a weird idea of what therapy actually is, maybe.

    I think that most of the anti-psychology/ anti-medication Christians have very skewed views of sola scriptura.

    I’ve had problems with anxiety since childhood. I’ve listened to many sermons about anxiety or read blog posts about it by preachers.
    Most of them think if you have anxiety in the first place, this is a sin (because it supposedly shows a lack of trust in God), and they will quote verses at you, such as “Perfect love casts out all fear.”

    In all my years of dealing with anxiety, focusing on, repeating, thinking about, reading, or saying verses that pertain to fear have not really helped me.

    But the anti- psychology Christians act like the Bible is a magic wand or magical tool that if you read it enough, repeat it aloud enough, or memorize it, your anxiety problems will instantly go away. That has not been my experience at all.

  356. Ummmm… I don’t have time to read all the posts right now..but.. I just went to CBMW website to look up something I need for my finals homework, and blasted on their opening page is their summarizing of the T4G pre-conference. I say ‘blasting’ because they have more than one zoomed in photos of the main T4G conference with the 10,000 attendees making it appear that 10,000 people attended the pre-conference which I believe was held in a ballroom that only holds 3,000 max. Where are THOSE pictures???

  357. @ Patti:

    Now you had me visiting the site, which is always maddening.

    1. Picture of that guy who just got caught ‘not committing adultery per se’ with two women and

    2. The best way for married people to help singles is to “show how amazing and worthwhile it is to be a spouse and parent”. They couldn’t give actual practical advice, like setting them up with single men/women, or inviting singles to parties so they could meet each other. Instead, gloating about how awesome your marriage is will help.

  358. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Because backing out not only means writing off all that $$$, it means admitting to himself that he got conned.

    It has been said it is easier to mislead people than it is to convince them that they have been mislead.

  359. Daisy wrote:

    But the anti- psychology Christians act like the Bible is a magic wand or magical tool that if you read it enough, repeat it aloud enough, or memorize it, your anxiety problems will instantly go away. That has not been my experience at all.

    The anti-psych Christians are really superstitious about the Bible when it comes to mental health matters, but not so much when it comes to physical health matters. Because THAT would be all Christian Sciencey and cultish.

  360. Jenny wrote:

    The anti-psych Christians are really superstitious about the Bible when it comes to mental health matters, but not so much when it comes to physical health matters.

    Indeed. Even though you can see difference in brains (for instance, depressed vs. not depressed) through scans. Which is physical.

  361. Lydia wrote:

    In his process he has it so the member/worker tells the pastor first then the pastor calls the lawyer and the insurance company and finally, number 3, is call the authorities!

    My only guess is that the pastor gets to make the determination whether the authorities need to be called or not. Which has been a problem with every policy I have seen come out of TGC.

    This is so wrong and if it isn’t illegal it should be.

    Do these pastors ever make the determination that police should be called, btw?

  362. Patti wrote:

    Where are THOSE pictures???

    Those photos are of the T4G general meeting in the main venue at the KFC Yum Center, which can seat 11,000 in a half-house event … that is not the CBMW pre-conference. You can see similar photos on the T4G homepage of that same meeting space. Since New Calvinism is characterized by stealth and deception, the CBMW folks borrowed the T4G photos to make them looker bigger than they really were.

  363. Max wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    You should hear his wife talking about comp Doctrine. It is so tortured I almost feel sorry for her. It is like she is trying to sell something she does not believe in at all
    New Calvinist women are oppressed, but they have to go along to get along. When I visit SBC-YRR church plants in my area, I don’t discern freedom in Christ – particularly among the women. You can see the oppression on their countenance. Whom the Son sets free are free indeed … so many folks in the reformed movement are still bondage. Why would anyone in their right mind fall for this? Of course, that is the problem – those ensnared in the new reformation aren’t in their right spiritual mind.

    Max, there has never been freedom for women in the SBC. The YRR crew just reenforced this belief in the SBC. I am of the mind that many of these resurgent conservatives in the 80s, in the SBC, were afraid of women pastors, deacons, women praying in church, etc….

  364. I read the new Washingtonian story about CLC, the arrest of Caffrey, and CJ’s sermon at T4G. The quote from the article about CJ’s sermon was a statement in his sermon that to pastor means suffering and to know some cold, dark nights.

    I am sure that is true.

    In Mahaney’s case; however, some of those dark, cold nights were of his own making.

    I noted js’s comments above and his questions about Mahaney’s culpability.

    Here is what we know to be fact:

    Mahaney founded and organized SGM. He was the head “Apostle” (his term) for the movement. That is a weighty claim.

    He was in that position when SGM developed its documents regarding handling things like sexual abuse.

    The polity of SGM connects all of the churches to each other under the authority and regional groups and the national groups, and ultimately, Mahaney, as the chief apostle.

    No one gets on these groups, or develops policy, and says what gets taught at the Pastor’s College without Mahaney’s approval.

    So, the practice and ethos of those churches falls squarely on the person who designed and led them.

    Mahaney’s brother in law admitted the abuse took place, and that the church did not report the abuse to law enforcement. Several people on the staff knew this occurred.

    With respect to the former SGM member who has now been convicted of child sexual abuse, Brent Detweiler has opined that there is no way Mahaney, as senior pastor, would not have known about the abuse at the time. Layman knew. Layman would have told his brother in law and higher up at the church and SGM.

    And as someone about has noted, Mahaney’s denial can easily be understood as him saying that the did not take affirmative steps to hide child abuse. Mahaney does not consider designing a system of churches and procedures that fail to report child abuse to authorities, and encouraging members not to do so either, as “concealment” or “conspiracy to conceal” or anything similar.

    I first started reading about the SGM stuff about 4 years ago, I think. Even at that late date, Mahaney could have said, “Oh my goodness, I had no idea. We have to make this right. We were trying to achieve this or that, and we had no idea that failing to report caused this much hurt and anger etc …”

    Instead, he has remained silent, except for the denial.

    CJ has not done interviews. He has left pastoral subordinates to answer. He has told his friends privately what to say, like trial balloons.

    I had a friend who attended a meeting that Mark Dever led a couple of years ago, and Mahaney was one of the speakers. Dever told the attendees before Mahaney arrived that Mahaney would not answer questions about the lawsuit, but Dever went on to assure that attendees that Mahaney had told him (Dever) there were only 2 or so (I may have the count wrong) that Mahaney knew about, and those were reported to the authorities. The conviction of the former SGM member has now occurred in the interim, so we know what Mahaney supposedly told Dever to be untrue.

    Mahaney would have much to share about the failures in the pastorate, unwise decisions, and all related matters, but he has chosen not to do this.

    Instead, Mahaney has lawyered up and decided to protect his reputation. The insurance company that is probably paying for Mahaney’s counsel at this point may have instructed Mahaney to not make any public statements or the insurance may not cover any losses.

    At any rate, the lawsuit is not that old, and there were many years in the interim when Mahaney knew about what had gone on, and decided not to try and reach out to victims or set the record straight, and there was no insurer that may have been calling the shots.

    Mahaney has made the decision to foist this off on underlings, and he is fighting for his reputation.

    And Mahaney’s friends at T4G are fighting for their reputations, too. That is what is driving this. I have to disagree with the folks here who say it is money. A $100,000 gift would be a lot to me, but in the world of institutional advancement, $100,000 is not a large gift. Southern has contact with people who are prepared to given $50,000,000 or more.

    What drives the T4G leaders is their reputations as having made wise decisions regarding their associations and the beliefs regarding their associations.

    By driving out one of their own, they would be in effect condemning themselves. I believed they were coming to their senses after the Morales conviction, but it was not enough.

    Don’t be surprised if in the future guys like Grant Layman and others swear up and down that they never told Mahaney. Ignore the fact that not only would that not make sense, but that Mahaney still designed and presided over a system that ended up protecting child molesters and damaging good people.

    The men at T4G are unfortunately vested in protecting the reputation of Mahaney. It is not a wise bargain, and one, in the end, that will not serve their own images.

  365. K.D. wrote:

    there has never been freedom for women in the SBC

    Granted, SBC has not received the spiritual gifts given to women – particularly in the area of preaching/teaching … something I have voiced my opinion about for years in the churches I have served in. However, New Calvinism has put a new level of bondage on young women … Good Lord, I’ve seen young mothers walking several feet behind their man in SBC-YRR church plants! If SBC women were oppressed before New Calvinism came knocking, they have a double portion of it now! The truth of it is, if it weren’t for SBC women praying and venturing into leadership roles as far as they could, many SBC churches would have closed years ago. Some of the godliest Southern Baptists I know are women, not men. If they still have Wednesday prayer meetings at SBC churches in your area, visit them sometime – you will see mostly women there. Of course, most prayer meetings have been canceled in SBC life for lack of interest … in such an atmosphere of apathy, it’s no surprise that New Calvinism is running roughshod over the SBC.

  366. @ K.D.:
    The YRR made comp part of the Gospel. Before my church was taken over it was no big deal that women taught men all the time and there were women Deacons. In seven years I did not hear one single headship or comp sermon. And this was during the time that the young restless and reformed were really coming on here. They would visit the church and offer to volunteer but the pastor would always tell them ‘I don’t think you will feel comfortable here’. We had had too many come through throwing fits over the women deacons and teaching mixed Sunday School classes. it never cease to amaze me how they would be visitors and be so rude about our polity. They never shied away from telling you how wrong you were. I just wish they were like that in job interviews. :o)

    We just weren’t in that Paige Patterson or Al Mohler mode.

  367. Max wrote:

    Those photos are of the T4G general meeting in the main venue at the KFC Yum Center, which can seat 11,000 in a half-house event … that is not the CBMW pre-conference. You can see similar photos on the T4G homepage of that same meeting space. Since New Calvinism is characterized by stealth and deception, the CBMW folks borrowed the T4G photos to make them looker bigger than they really were.

    Doesn’t Scientology do the same trick?

  368. Anonymous wrote:

    Here is what we know to be fact:
    Mahaney founded and organized SGM. He was the head “Apostle” (his term) for the movement. That is a weighty claim.
    He was in that position when SGM developed its documents regarding handling things like sexual abuse.
    The polity of SGM connects all of the churches to each other under the authority and regional groups and the national groups, and ultimately, Mahaney, as the chief apostle.
    No one gets on these groups, or develops policy, and says what gets taught at the Pastor’s College without Mahaney’s approval.
    So, the practice and ethos of those churches falls squarely on the person who designed and led them.

    I first started reading about the SGM stuff about 4 years ago, I think. Even at that late date, Mahaney could have said, “Oh my goodness, I had no idea. We have to make this right. We were trying to achieve this or that, and we had no idea that failing to report caused this much hurt and anger etc …”
    Instead, he has remained silent, except for the denial.
    CJ has not done interviews. He has left pastoral subordinates to answer.
    Mahaney would have much to share about the failures in the pastorate, unwise decisions, and all related matters, but he has chosen not to do this.
    Instead, Mahaney has lawyered up and decided to protect his reputation. The insurance company that is probably paying for Mahaney’s counsel at this point may have instructed Mahaney to not make any public statements or the insurance may not cover any losses.
    At any rate, the lawsuit is not that old, and there were many years in the interim when Mahaney knew about what had gone on, *and decided not to try and reach out to victims or set the record straight,* and there was no insurer that may have been calling the shots.
    Mahaney has made the decision to foist this off on underlings, and he is fighting for his reputation.

    The men at T4G are unfortunately vested in protecting the reputation of Mahaney. It is not a wise bargain, and one, in the end, that will not serve their own images.

    To cut down on space, I took the liberty of clipping some of your excellent text, Anon.

    I think your point about the power structure at the church is an excellent one. He was utterly responsible because he had given himself all the authority. Most men of integrity, even in the business world, if they are head of an organization, will take responsibility for what went on during their watch, even if they were not directly responsible for it. And if their integrity doesn’t do the trick, they will get a nudge from their board.

    Secondly, the whole issue of negligence in terms of care for the victims is the part that he is utterly and totally accountable for. I believe that the best insurance against a law suit is a sincere apology. Many victims of different situations go to court because it’s the only way to get an apology and it’s the only way to get assurance that the system will change. It gives some meaning to suffering if you are able to protect others. In these types of cases, doing the right thing, the caring thing, is also doing the smarter thing legally. But even if it opens one up to a lawsuit, what about the verse that says, “Why not allow yourself to be defrauded?” Which is worse, to fail to care for deeply wounded people whom you had taken responsibility as pastor OR to open yourself up to a possible lawsuit by expressing care?

    I’m afraid that his associates have simply tied the rope around their own feet at this point. I think it may be the ultimate result of drinking too deeply of the Kool Aid. Failure to listen to anyone outside their own echo chamber has made them blind and deaf to what is apparent to others. At this point, they will likely go down with him. I think there is too much not to stick to Mahaney at this point.

    It’s sad that we have to wait for the secular press (and courts) in so many of these cases for justice that the church withholds protecting itself. Thank God now that the secular press is also joined by Christian bloggers, so that those inside the church who care for justice also have a voice that can be heard by many. But I am betting that the fact that secular news has picked this up will be what eventually blows the full cover.

  369. Jenny wrote:

    The anti-psych Christians are really superstitious about the Bible when it comes to mental health matters, but not so much when it comes to physical health matters. Because THAT would be all Christian Sciencey and cultish.

    So they’re just being all Scientology and cultish instead.

  370. Lea wrote:

    @ Patti:

    Now you had me visiting the site, which is always maddening.

    1. Picture of that guy who just got caught ‘not committing adultery per se’ with two women…

    From the BBC production of “I, Claudius”:
    CAESAR AUGUSTUS (accusing): “[long Roman nobleman’s name] — Did you sleep with my daughter?”
    ROMAN NOBLEMAN: “Not ‘sleep’, Caesar…”
    CAESAR AUGUSTUS: “Ah? Then did you do it standing up? Or on a couch?”

    2. The best way for married people to help singles is to “show how amazing and worthwhile it is to be a spouse and parent”. They couldn’t give actual practical advice, like setting them up with single men/women, or inviting singles to parties so they could meet each other. Instead, gloating about how awesome your marriage is will help.

    “LOOK AT WHAT I’VE GOT THAT YOU’LL NEVER HAVE! NYAAAAH!”

  371. Max wrote:

    K.D. wrote:
    there has never been freedom for women in the SBC
    Granted, SBC has not received the spiritual gifts given to women – particularly in the area of preaching/teaching … something I have voiced my opinion about for years in the churches I have served in. However, New Calvinism has put a new level of bondage on young women … Good Lord, I’ve seen young mothers walking several feet behind their man in SBC-YRR church plants! If SBC women were oppressed before New Calvinism came knocking, they have a double portion of it now! The truth of it is, if it weren’t for SBC women praying and venturing into leadership roles as far as they could, many SBC churches would have closed years ago. Some of the godliest Southern Baptists I know are women, not men. If they still have Wednesday prayer meetings at SBC churches in your area, visit them sometime – you will see mostly women there. Of course, most prayer meetings have been canceled in SBC life for lack of interest … in such an atmosphere of apathy, it’s no surprise that New Calvinism is running roughshod over the SBC.

    Max, and you don’t have to give the city, what state/area are you located? ( I am just curious)

  372. Lydia wrote:

    Max wrote:
    K.D. wrote:
    there has never been freedom for women in the SBC
    Granted, SBC has not received the spiritual gifts given to women – particularly in the area of preaching/teaching … something I have voiced my opinion about for years in the churches I have served in. However, New Calvinism has put a new level of bondage on young women … Good Lord, I’ve seen young mothers walking several feet behind their man in SBC-YRR church plants! If SBC women were oppressed before New Calvinism came knocking, they have a double portion of it now! The truth of it is, if it weren’t for SBC women praying and venturing into leadership roles as far as they could, many SBC churches would have closed years ago. Some of the godliest Southern Baptists I know are women, not men. If they still have Wednesday prayer meetings at SBC churches in your area, visit them sometime – you will see mostly women there. Of course, most prayer meetings have been canceled in SBC life for lack of interest … in such an atmosphere of apathy, it’s no surprise that New Calvinism is running roughshod over the SBC.
    Max, and you don’t have to give the city, what state/area are you located? ( I am just curious)

    Lydia, just curious, where are you located? ( and you don’t have to be specific about the town)

  373. js wrote:

    js wrote:
    Every allegation in the Second Amended Complaint may be true, but it seems to me that Brent could put a definitive mark on this case. But he has not. He either has something or he doesn’t. If he has something he is not releasing, it is probably because he too would be implicated. If he has nothing, why not? How is it any more incredible to believe CJ Mahaney knew nothing than it is to claim Brent knew nothing? And if he knew something, why would he spend all those months picking apart CJ’s inner life instead of going after him on the most important issue, the horrific abuse of children?

    JS, The accounts I have read reveal that SGM was an insulated community. Insulated communities prey upon the fears of members and practice peer pressure and intimidation to keep people in line and quiet. This being the case, no one who was a C.J. loyalist while in the group would have come out and exposed him if they knew he was guilty in covering up child sex abuse. The same goes for current C.J. loyalists. However, in the case of Brent Detweiler coming out of the group and exposing the wrongdoing that went on there – he also makes himself vulnerable to any attacks from those who were on the inside. Surely someone who was in the group would have had to know if Brent D. was involved in the cover-up and could very likely expose him as a hypocrite. Why would Detweiler put himself out there like that in the public eye, knowing full well he could be exposed as part of the cover up of sexual abuse, if indeed he were actually guilty of such? That seems too much of a risk to take, imo. In other words, why would any person who was involved in the child sex abuse cover-up be so public about exposing the wrongdoing in SGM, knowing full well it could backfire and they could be implicated?

  374. Daisy wrote:

    That makes me so angry, and it seems to be a common view.
    ‘Pro-Rape’ Pastor Compares Sodomizing A Child To Stealing Candy
    http://www.inquisitr.com/3001839/pro-rape-pastor-compares-sodomizing-a-child-to-stealing-candy-theyre-both-sins/
    Pastor Michael Orten of the Truth Apostolic Church in Madisonville, Kentucky, is being called “pro-rape” after he not only hired a man convicted of raping a 13-year-old girl but then proceeded to defend the man’s crimes, likening the forcible rape of a young girl at knifepoint to stealing candy.
    Orten also inferred that the child who his employee raped while holding a razor blade to her throat somehow bore equal responsibility in her own violent assault, saying that it “takes two to tango.”

    The church’s Facebook page is down right now. I just imagine they were getting slammed by the public.

  375. Abi Miah wrote:

    Anonymous wrote:
    Here is what we know to be fact:
    Mahaney founded and organized SGM. He was the head “Apostle” (his term) for the movement. That is a weighty claim.
    He was in that position when SGM developed its documents regarding handling things like sexual abuse.
    The polity of SGM connects all of the churches to each other under the authority and regional groups and the national groups, and ultimately, Mahaney, as the chief apostle.
    No one gets on these groups, or develops policy, and says what gets taught at the Pastor’s College without Mahaney’s approval.
    So, the practice and ethos of those churches falls squarely on the person who designed and led them.
    I first started reading about the SGM stuff about 4 years ago, I think. Even at that late date, Mahaney could have said, “Oh my goodness, I had no idea. We have to make this right. We were trying to achieve this or that, and we had no idea that failing to report caused this much hurt and anger etc …”
    Instead, he has remained silent, except for the denial.
    CJ has not done interviews. He has left pastoral subordinates to answer.
    Mahaney would have much to share about the failures in the pastorate, unwise decisions, and all related matters, but he has chosen not to do this.
    Instead, Mahaney has lawyered up and decided to protect his reputation. The insurance company that is probably paying for Mahaney’s counsel at this point may have instructed Mahaney to not make any public statements or the insurance may not cover any losses.
    At any rate, the lawsuit is not that old, and there were many years in the interim when Mahaney knew about what had gone on, *and decided not to try and reach out to victims or set the record straight,* and there was no insurer that may have been calling the shots.
    Mahaney has made the decision to foist this off on underlings, and he is fighting for his reputation.
    The men at T4G are unfortunately vested in protecting the reputation of Mahaney. It is not a wise bargain, and one, in the end, that will not serve their own images.
    To cut down on space, I took the liberty of clipping some of your excellent text, Anon.
    I think your point about the power structure at the church is an excellent one. He was utterly responsible because he had given himself all the authority. Most men of integrity, even in the business world, if they are head of an organization, will take responsibility for what went on during their watch, even if they were not directly responsible for it. And if their integrity doesn’t do the trick, they will get a nudge from their board.
    Secondly, the whole issue of negligence in terms of care for the victims is the part that he is utterly and totally accountable for. I believe that the best insurance against a law suit is a sincere apology. Many victims of different situations go to court because it’s the only way to get an apology and it’s the only way to get assurance that the system will change. It gives some meaning to suffering if you are able to protect others. In these types of cases, doing the right thing, the caring thing, is also doing the smarter thing legally. But even if it opens one up to a lawsuit, what about the verse that says, “Why not allow yourself to be defrauded?” Which is worse, to fail to care for deeply wounded people whom you had taken responsibility as pastor OR to open yourself up to a possible lawsuit by expressing care?
    I’m afraid that his associates have simply tied the rope around their own feet at this point. I think it may be the ultimate result of drinking too deeply of the Kool Aid. Failure to listen to anyone outside their own echo chamber has made them blind and deaf to what is apparent to others. At this point, they will likely go down with him. I think there is too much not to stick to Mahaney at this point.
    It’s sad that we have to wait for the secular press (and courts) in so many of these cases for justice that the church withholds protecting itself. Thank God now that the secular press is also joined by Christian bloggers, so that those inside the church who care for justice also have a voice that can be heard by many. But I am betting that the fact that secular news has picked this up will be what eventually blows the full cover.

    the sad thing is, he and his enablers probably view his little time out at Dever’s church (during which I’m guessing he was paid) as sufficient penance.

  376.   __

    “What Is The Gospel?”

    hmmm…

    Some 2000 years ago, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, sent His Son Jesus into the world with a mission and message.

    Jesus was ‘crystal clear’ in His message:

    If you will ‘believe’ [1] in God’s Son, you shall not perish[2] but receive everlasting life.

    Jesus was ‘determined’ in His mission:

    His mission: Through the cross, to restore the world unto His Father.

    For You, Jesus completed both,

    Please ‘believe’ upon Jesus today.

    ATB

    Sopy

    P.S. If you should ask a Calvinist (New, Neo, etc.) ‘What is the Gospel?’ , please be prepared to be ‘confused’ ™.
    __
    notes:
    [1] Believe; i.e. to trust, to cling, to rely upon.

    [2] perish; i.e. God will one day bring judgement. 

    [3]  everlasting life ; i.e. enter into a life with God that will never end.

  377. js wrote:

    I am not willing to look away from the circumstantial evidence but I do not think it proves definitively that CJ covered up sexual abuse.

    Once again you show your ignorance on the matter of abuse. The testimony of victims and their families is NOT considered circumstantial evidence. This sort of crime is almost always not witnessed. Therefore the testimony of the victims is considered primary evidence. It is statements like this that cause me to be suspicious of you and what you are attempting to do here.

  378. One comment not approved because it discusses our moderation policy. GBTC does not allow this and I am submissive.

  379. @ Anonymous:

    Thank you so much for your thorough analysis of the situation. I agree that $100,000 is not that much, especially when paid in installments, but what's odd is that I believe SBTS stopped revealing its donors after we made this discovery.

    As we have often stressed, it was deceptive that SGM was giving money to SBTS without making it fully known to members of Sovereign Grace churches, and furthermore, SGM had its own Pastors College!

  380. @ Lea:

    As to your point 2, this is a very big misunderstanding in Christianity today. The ones who do notice that singles are staying single assume the reason so is deliberate choice, when that’s not it at all for a lot of singles.

    The problem is not a lack of desire to be married on the part of many singles (as is assumed) but that there is a gender imbalance (more single females than males).
    http://nypost.com/2015/08/25/hey-ladies-here-are-8-reasons-youre-single/

  381. Jenny wrote:

    The anti-psych Christians are really superstitious about the Bible when it comes to mental health matters, but not so much when it comes to physical health matters. Because THAT would be all Christian Sciencey and cultish.

    A general tendency I’ve noticed among Christians (especially anti psychology ones) is that they only feel compassion for scars they can see.

    So, if someone has emotional wounds, due to being a child abuse victim, or domestic abuse victim, or they have PTSD, depression, or some other mental condition where you can’t really see the pain, they think it doesn’t matter, or the pain isn’t as real or as serious as pain you can see (eg., broken arms, a cast on a broken leg, a person sitting in a wheelchair).

  382. Lydia wrote:

    @ K.D.:

    Same city as SBTS. So you can imagine an SBC church with women teaching men

    Oh man, I am so sorry…..dadgum " ground zero" for all this foolishness….

  383. Max wrote:

    Lydia wrote: The tactics are less of a secret these days and more and more people see the pattern. But, in the meantime, they have darn near destroyed SBC life as I have known it for 60+ years! These reformed preacher boys are an arrogant, rebellious mess. It would have been an easier row to hoe for all of us if they had just joined Presbyterian ranks where their theology was more welcome … rather than Calvinizing a denomination that didn’t ask for it.

    Max, the Credo-Baptist Calvinists would never join the Presbyterian ranks. I do think, though, that they could have headed for the already established Reformed Baptist churches, that way meeting with folks who believe in the same tenets as they. But I think the m.o. of Neo-Calvinism is to evangelize to the non-Calvinist churches, albeit covertly in the beginning stages. Their fields are among those who are already Christians, because after all, they need to be Enlightened.

  384. Lydia wrote:

    Yes and people who have invested considerable time and money are reluctant to leave even when they figure it out. In reality they are just prolonging their own misery but they don’t know that at the time.

    I am still in contact with a small number of people that have not left my former church although just last week another decided it was time. An older gentleman I know well, in his 80s, hangs on. The hard part is leaving behind friends, the problem is most of his friends have already left.

    This elderly person has attended for nearly 50 years, declining health yet still mows and keeps the church grounds. He recently needed to move and needed volunteers to help. I went figuring I would have the discomfort of bumping into a few that have shunned me. Not to worry, only one person there helping still attended, the rest were all former attenders. Considering what this guy has and continues to put into the church there should have been several dozen people.

    Glad I’m out.

  385. Lydia, you are so articulate! You should start a blog documenting the modus operandi of the Neo-Calvinist Movement and Take-Over.
    Lydia wrote:

    @ okrapod:
    Quiet Revolution tactics. People sense something is different but the terminology is familiar but used with a different definition without declaring such. There is always a honeymoon period with new pastor or church plant. People are tolerant and forgiving and want to be cooperative.
    During this time there is usually a ‘move of the Holy Spirit” with the youth so everyone is elated. The 30 year old young pastor is cool and nice even if a bit immature but the older people say, he just needs to grow into it (while they pay him 80 grand)
    By this time a year has passed and Joe, who has never been a deacon, is a right hand guy and becomes one so he is all about loyalty. Shampoo rinse, repeat. Two years have passed and those who are more doctrinally and polity saavy left or are only attending SS. (That won’t last because as they say the church is not a smorgasbord and the pastor sermon is the most important event of your week)
    By this time, the young pastor has like minded staff cos others left without saying why so they can get other job in another church. Because as you know it is wrong to be negative at church about what is going on behind the scenes.
    The YRR Pastor has recruited his friends from Seminary to be interim in the slots. And for some reason the congregation goes along with just hiring them 6 mos later without the usual vetting and vote.
    The Takeover is almost complete. There are plenty of sermons about Brokenness, God’s sovereignty and elders. See when you are properly broken all the time you won’t be so hard to control.
    The pew sitters have already gone along with just about everything including staff getting rid of most of the activities or events that are led by lay people. The new leaders have better ideas and of course the staff is in charge of everything now.
    All of this would have been avoided if the candidate had just been honest and said I’m a calvinist who believes in Elder rule. But the candidate pretended to be one of them and took advantage of their goodness.
    Another tactic is to say I’m not one of those bad calvinist who take over churches actually I’m just a 4 pointer. Never mind that he graduated from Southern and loves John Piper sermons he cuts and pastes every week. But how would the average pewsitter who is not in that world recognize a Piper sermon?
    That is how it is done. By this time you have factions. You have the “positive all the time” people who don’t want to cause trouble, you have the people who went along for two years and are now seeing it and are unhappy but don’t want to say anything. And you have the staunch loyalists and of course the search committee which is trying to save face.
    What they all fail to come to grips with it has no longer become their Church. They just pay for everything.
    And what they also do not know is that the young calvinist Pastor has mentors who are counseling him every week who are associated with the movement either at convention level or the Seminary. Because there is no way this young head full of mush could have been this clever. And it is all done under the guise of building a healthy Church. Because, as you know, it was not a healthy Church before they got there. The YRR pastor came to the interview convinced the people in that church did not know the true gospel and he was on a mission from God.
    I have seen it play over and over in quite a few churches here. That is how it works.

  386. Darlene wrote:

    I think the m.o. of Neo-Calvinism is to evangelize to the non-Calvinist churches

    Yes, that is certainly their agenda – since they have the true gospel that non-Calvinists have lost for the last 500 years (such arrogance!). Their definition of “evangelize” is different than mine. My focus is to reach the lost around me with the message of the Cross of Christ for ALL people … their focus is to harvest the predestined elect.

  387. @ Bill M:
    Bill, that breaks my heart. But he knows who he can count on. I give the elderly a pass on all of this. I am sorry he gives them money but I am glad that he gets out and is around people.

  388. Lydia wrote:

    okrapod wrote:
    Her 11 year old son had made a profession of faith and was baptized several months earlier. But instead of Joy he was expressing almost in a nervous breakdown way, what a horrible sinner he was and how broken he was and he didn’t know if he was really saved.
    She felt like that as parents they had failed and what they told him about Jesus Christ. She is sort of the positive all the time type so I suggested she start checking out what he’s being taught in the youth group. To write down the names of the people they quote and check them out. Guess who the youth pastor had been preaching from? Arthur Pink! Sheesh! Let’s all just go slash our wrists and get it over with!

    Good ole A.W. Pink – the man who could find NOBODY in the ENTIRE region of Scotland where he lived, with whom he could worship God. The fella who boldly proclaimed GOD DOESN’T LOVE EVERYBODY! I remember a time, going on about 17 yrs ago, in which my husband and I met with some Christians to have fellowship and the book chosen to read was: The Attributes of God by Pink. We brought two kind and lovely Christian men with us and they only came about two times into that study of Pink’s writing. I saw the looks on their faces as they heard Pink’s view on the character of God. I knew they wouldn’t last through the whole study. Of course, neither did my husband and I. Pink’s God is cold, impersonal, sterile, and lacking in love. Talk about giving up in despair.

  389. @ Darlene:
    I can remember reading his book on Sovereignty about 10 years ago thinking it sounded like the ‘Christians guide on how to be properly depressed’

  390. http://www.wdrb.com/story/31754842/hardin-county-man-confesses-to-molesting-6-year-old-but-wont-serve-jail-time-warning-graphic

    I want to share this very special story with my friends here. This precious woman was my kid’s math teacher about 4 years ago. Today, she finally got her day in court to tell her story, go back to her hometown and face her rapist. In 1976, at the age of 6, she was raped by a neighbor who was 15.

    Warning. She does not hold back.

  391. js wrote:

    Since CJ has denied covering up sexual abuse I will withhold my judgment of his guilt until definitive evidence appears one way or the other.

    And yet, you have seen concrete evidence of Mahaney’s callousness and indifference towards those who were once under his care, and who were scarred and mangled by sexual abuse. Namely, his participation in T4G as a speaker and luminary. You mentioned this yourself, and even mentioned your disapproval of his participation in a much earlier comment. And yet, in the same comment, you said you weren’t sure that this in itself is “disqualifying”.

    Your view is mind-boggling to me, JS. Mahaney has made profit off of believers, and continues to do so. But he refuses to care for the wounded, or seek out the straying. When I read God’s message to the worthless shepherds in Ezekiel, I can’t understand how his behaviour doesn’t disqualify him as a pastor.

    As far as I’m concerned, he disqualified himself as a shepherd long ago. And his fellow organizers at the T4G circus are just as culpable, Mohler in particular.

  392. Lydia wrote:

    This precious woman was my kid’s math teacher about 4 years ago. Today, she finally got her day in court to tell her story, go back to her hometown and face her rapist. In 1976, at the age of 6, she was raped by a neighbor who was 15.

    I’m so sorry that this happened at all, Lydia, and all the more that it hurt someone you know. I hope that God will bless her for coming forward, and that her courage will help many others as well.

  393. Lydia wrote:

    I want to share this very special story with my friends here.

    Good for her. I extremely doubt she was this slimeball’s only victim.

  394. Lydia wrote:

    @ K.D.:
    You can’t swing a dead cat in a Starbucks here without hitting one

    One of the blessings of being here…..Starbucks can’t make coffee dark enough to compete with ” Community” or “Seaport” coffees….

  395. Lydia wrote:

    Do you see the trick that’s going on over there? The focus is on the autonomy of churches when it comes to dealing with child sex abuse.

    They still don’t get it do they? Child sex abuse is a crime, it’s a felony, and any notions they have of ‘autonomy’ or ‘religious liberty’ go out the window when stacked up against the laws of the land. Like I’ve said on other occasions, sooner or later they’re really gonna’ mess-up and the full weight of the law is gonna’ come down hard and heavy.

  396. @ Lydia:
    Thank you Lydia for sharing that. It left me with a feeling of hope, much needed these days the way the church seems to be headed.

  397. @ Bill M:
    That is what she thinks, obviously. She grew up in a small town so I am hoping he will be so ostracized he will wish he was in prison.

  398. @ Muff Potter:
    And they are avoiding, on purpose, any discussion of Mohler, an SBC entity president of a seminary, who has gone to Great Lengths to protect and promote the leader of basically what has become a child molestation protection ring.

    Are SBC entity presidents autonomous? Or are they employees?

  399. Muff Potter wrote:

    They still don’t get it do they? Child sex abuse is a crime, it’s a felony, and any notions they have of ‘autonomy’ or ‘religious liberty’ go out the window when stacked up against the laws of the land. Like I’ve said on other occasions, sooner or later they’re really gonna’ mess-up and the full weight of the law is gonna’ come down hard and heavy.

    It’s ironic: People use the Bible to justify trying to change the laws of the land in order to do good, but cherry-pick those same laws to justify themselves if they’ve done evil.

    When we want to evade accountability, we can come up with a “biblical” case for justifying anything theologically. But the Rock in the road here is that we’re mandated to be subject to the laws of the land, aren’t we? Or suffer the consequences if we commit a crime or if we protest against what we consider unjust laws.

    For a role-model of Christian humility in the face of open, intentional refusal to obey the laws of the land, I consider the life of one of my college professors, Arnold Satterthwait. Here’s an excerpt I wrote in an article about him:

    A lifelong Quaker and descendant of William Penn of Pennsylvania, Dr. Satterthwait was a thorough-going pacifist. He spent four years during World War II in a U.S. prison as a conscientious objector because he refused to register for the draft. I remember him sharing that he also refused to accept the option of working with military medic units, since he believed even that still supported violence and war.

    According to a memorial posted by his Quaker fellowship, these quotes are from what Dr. Satterthwait said at his trial on November 26, 1941, for refusing to register for the draft: “I believe in a life of love … the life as preached by Christ and many others since. The God I believe in is a God of love. He loves us infinitely and eternally. He speaks to us in many ways: through the mouths of others, through beautiful things in our life and through our own consciences.” “I cannot believe that war is the way of love offered by God. … I cannot look on reregistration for the military service as a loving act towards anyone.” “I believe that when a law is disobeyed in favor of the higher law, the offender must and should pay the penalty cheerfully and with no feeling of enmity towards those who carry out the will of the majority.” He was 21 years old at the time.

    Dr. Satterthwait embodies an incarnational standard for what it looks like to show Christian character in civil disobedience. I’m not seeing anything like his humility from those who appeal to “freedom of religion” to justify their civil insubordination, or who seek to halt the extension of statutes of limitation on child sexual abuse.

  400. JS is miffed because he is in moderation so he won’t be back. JS is a perfect example of someone who claims to be one thing and is really another. He claims he doesn’t support CJ one way or another but spends all of time trying to prove why CJ is innocent since ‘there is no proof.”

    He tipped his hand by saying that victims’ testimony is circumstantial evidence which is clearly ridiculous. His justification for just about everything reminds me of stories I heard about people in SGM who had the carpet pulled out from under them when they went to pastors with concerns. You see, it was always the problem of the person who brought the charge-never the leaders.

    He tried to discredit the blog and us, making stupid statements about what we have and have not done. he ends with a list of pastors who have committed sexual abuse and asking why we haven’t covered them instead of covering CJ and BFFs.

    One thing I don’t like is someone who plays games. If he wanted to come right out and say who he was and the fact that he was here to attempt to trash the reports of victims then I would give him props for honesty. Instead, he was just another sycophant who started this game when Ruth Tucker’s book on domestic violence was featured. This guy has a thing about abuse of all kinds and it is not a good thing. The victims and those who support them are the ones who are to be discredited-not his idols in the movement.

    Oh yeah, he is also the one who declares who is, and isn’t, primary in the YRR movement. Either his ego is filling a room or he is one of them.

  401. Muff Potter wrote:

    They still don’t get it do they? Child sex abuse is a crime, it’s a felony, and any notions they have of ‘autonomy’ or ‘religious liberty’ go out the window when stacked up against the laws of the land. Like I’ve said on other occasions, sooner or later they’re really gonna’ mess-up and the full weight of the law is gonna’ come down hard and heavy

    1) Remember all the cracks & sneers about Catholic Priests after THEIR molestation coverup scandal?
    2) Remember Eagle when he really hit bottom a couple years ago? “Christianity is a Cancer”?

  402. Darlene wrote:

    Good ole A.W. Pink – the man who could find NOBODY in the ENTIRE region of Scotland where he lived, with whom he could worship God. The fella who boldly proclaimed GOD DOESN’T LOVE EVERYBODY!

    The guy who achieved the Ultimate Theoretical End State of Protestantism — the One True Church of One.

    The reason he could “find nobody” was that everyone else’s Theology was Heretical and/or Apostate. Sounds way too much like “Everybody’s out-of-step except My Little Johnny.”

  403. Lydia wrote:

    @ Darlene:
    And it all happened because no one wants to look mean! Amazing, isn’t it?

    Like the dynamics in a Crapsaccharine abusive and/or alcoholic family.
    “EVERYTHING IS SO NICE NICE NICE AND DON’T YOU DARE ROCK THE BOAT!”

  404. Sovereignly disgraced internationally, Covenant Life Church  (CLC), the former SGM flagship once ‘reign’d’ through un-righteousness; and the abundance of it’s many victims; and SBTS president Albert Mohler makes a joke about it? How is that even ‘remotely’ possible?

  405. What does other pastors that have sexual issues have to do with CJ and the boys covering up child molesting? This guy really is trying to deflect ..

    dee wrote:

    JS is miffed because he is in moderation so he won’t be back. JS is a perfect example of someone who claims to be one thing and is really another. He claims he doesn’t support CJ one way or another but spends all of time trying to prove why CJ is innocent since ‘there is no proof.”
    He tipped his hand by saying that victims’ testimony is circumstantial evidence which is clearly ridiculous. His justification for just about everything reminds me of stories I heard about people in SGM who had the carpet pulled out from under them when they went to pastors with concerns. You see, it was always the problem of the person who brought the charge-never the leaders.
    He tried to discredit the blog and us, making stupid statements about what we have and have not done. he ends with a list of pastors who have committed sexual abuse and asking why we haven’t covered them instead of covering CJ and BFFs.
    One thing I don’t like is someone who plays games. If he wanted to come right out and say who he was and the fact that he was here to attempt to trash the reports of victims then I would give him props for honesty. Instead, he was just another sycophant who started this game when Ruth Tucker’s book on domestic violence was featured. This guy has a thing about abuse of all kinds and it is not a good thing. The victims and those who support them are the ones who are to be discredited-not his idols in the movement.
    Oh yeah, he is also the one who declares who is, and isn’t, primary in the YRR movement. Either his ego is filling a room or he is one of them.

  406. Lydia wrote:

    She grew up in a small town so I am hoping he will be so ostracized he will wish he was in prison.

    I’m hoping it is a small community with their thinking right and they ostracize the offender rather than the victim. Lucky for her it isn’t one of these churches where the offender is a suck up to the “pastor”.

  407. __

      Because of the Lord’s great love we are not consumed by this questionable religious 501(c)3 non-profit organization (T4G) or it’s leaders who apparently, by their actions, discount the credibility and the viability of the many SGM child sexual abuse victims and their well documented stories.

    (sadface)

    Sopy

  408. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Dr. Satterthwait embodies an incarnational standard for what it looks like to show Christian character in civil disobedience.

    A BIG AMEN here Brad! Imagine what could be if all the young men when told by old men that they have to go and kill other young men stood up on their hind legs and said NO!.
    John Lennon might have been a dreamer, but he’s not the only one.
    Many of us have the same dream.

  409. Ugh just listened to the CJ tape…. These SGM people all sound exactly alike… The self deprecating humble like talk while pumping up the other pastors is so nauseating…it’s actually quite hypnotic!!! . They copy eachother ….. Ad nauseum…. So so glad I’m out…. What a cult of personality copying…. Could the real CJ please stand up??? Please grow your hair back and stop shaving your head!!!

  410. @ Steve:
    Yep. Typical CJ. He loves Hebrews 13:17. Preaches it as a proof text all the time. It is hard for me to believe that anyone can actually sit there and listen to him preach on this by now. Cult 101.

    Obey your evil greedy leaders!

  411. @ Lydia:

    I don’t get it with Mahaney. I had never heard of him until I read about him here at TWW. What’s the big big draw to him?

  412. Lydia wrote:

    @ Steve:
    I wonder why the Christian Post felt a need to write that? Influence? Seems rather strange to me.

    They wrote it very…neutral? But in a weird way, I thought.

    CJ’s in trouble. CJ says this. End of article. Strange.

  413. @ Steve:
    Piper, Mohler, Dever, etc etc promoted and partnered with him. In the Neo Cal movement that is akin to God himself promoting him

  414. @ Lydia:

    I wonder what they saw in him? Did it all start with money? Maybe I just don’t know enough about him, his background, etc.

  415. Steve wrote:

    https://baptistnews.com/2016/04/18/c-j-mahaney-says-churches-should-defend-their-pastors/

    Here’s another with more sermon quotes.

    The opening quote is quite something (boldface added):

    Fresh off an invitation to speak at a major pastor’s conference that stirred up memories of an alleged child sex-abuse cover-up at his former church, Pastor C.J. Mahaney reminded members of Sovereign Grace Church in Louisville, Ky., of their biblical mandate to stand by “God’s man” in his Sunday sermon on April 17.

    Preaching from Hebrews 13: 17, “Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account,” Mahaney said one responsibility of church membership is “a joyful disposition to trust and protect the pastoral team.”
    C.J. Mahaney

    C.J. Mahaney

    “Any slanderous comment about the pastoral team should be challenged, and if necessary resolved,” Mahaney said. “Why? Because the pastors are just sensitive souls, because pastors are so sensitive? No. That protection is needed in order to preserve the trust, in order to protect the unity of this church. That’s why that’s needed ultimately, for the advance of the gospel from this church.”

    It occurs to me that I have not seen Mr. Mahaney ensure that past supposedly slanderous remarks about him and responsibilities for apparent harm done under his leadership have been “resolved.” Hopefully those remarks have their day in court. Soon.

  416. Anonymous wrote:

    I first started reading about the SGM stuff about 4 years ago, I think. Even at that late date, Mahaney could have said, “Oh my goodness, I had no idea. We have to make this right. We were trying to achieve this or that, and we had no idea that failing to report caused this much hurt and anger etc …”

    Instead, he has remained silent, except for the denial.

    *pseudo-denial. He didn’t actually say anything that had a clear meaning.

  417. Steve wrote:

    I wonder what they saw in him? Did it all start with money? Maybe I just don’t know enough about him, his background, etc.

    I don’t get it either. He gives me the creeps.

  418. @ Steve:
    I have a theory. Mahaney had the infrastructure to coordinate T4G with no confining accountability.

    Not so with Mohler, Dever or Duncan. Through what infrastructure could those 3 coordinate such an undertaking?

    Mahaney had the yes man staff, pewsitters who don’t dare question or ever ask to see a budget.

    He had means, staff, a large totally stepford following and fawned all over them. It was creepy to watch them even back on their early promo videos.

  419. Pingback: Darrin Patrick is Removed from The Journey in St. Louis Amidst Questions; My Main Question…Will One of the Key Charges Also Be Applied to Matt Chandler? | Wondering Eagle UNITED STATES

  420. __

    “So please don’t slander me or my T4G friends by suggesting that our loyalty is grounded somewhere other than C. J. Mahaney…” – Al Buddy , T4G 2016

  421. Deb wrote:

    Muff Potter wrote:

    simple economics will also help to bring down the system of religious despotism that these guys have created.

    I made a vow NEVER to buy an ESV Bible. As I explained earlier, I bought The Cross Centered Life back in 2006 before I ever knew anything about Mahaney or the Neo-Cal movement. I do confess to buying a very cheap second-hand copy of Dever’s 9Marks of a Healthy Church.

    I buy a fair number of such books at thrift stores & yard sales.
    They make dandy liners the my cats’ litter box………

  422. js wrote:

    I do think the YRR get a disproportionate amount of attention here but that is my opinion

    People who start a cult need to be prepared for the taurine fecal matter to hit the fan. (Please pass this on to your like minded friends).

  423.   __

    “Lords Of The Ding?”

    hmmm…

    “It’s a dangerous business entering the 501(c)3 not-for-profit ‘Christian’ church door today. You step into the vestalbue , and if you don’t keep your wits about you, there’s no knowing what you might be swept up into…”  -Sopwith