“The problem with chameleoning your way through life is that it gets to the point where nothing is real.” ― John Green link
One of the advantages of blogging for years is that we get to see stories evolve. Through the years, we have followed the Sovereign Grace Ministries (now Sovereign Grace Churches) debacle. We heard the horrific allegations of child sex abuse and watched as this once thriving organization took a nosedive, losing both churches and money.
The Deebs are great believers in the concept of "The Buck Stops Here" and watched the shenanigans as CJ Mahaney and friends ditched the DC area and ran to Louisville where they fell into the protective arms of their dear friend Al Mohler, President of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and the recognized leader of the Neo-Calvinist coup d'é·tat of the SBC.
The Deebs have long predicted that SGM, SGC or whatever they call themselves this year, would eventually merge with the Southern Baptist Convention. We were ridiculed by insiders for our prognostications. So, today, please allow us a brief moment as we smugly say,"We told you so."
Always follow the money!
Both of us have MBAs and we usually like to look at how money flows in organizations. In February of 2010, Deb, following an inexplicable *Wartburg Tingle* decided to research if any SBTS contributions were made by SGM and CJ Mahaney. We knew that the over the top, flowery words passing between Mahaney and Mohler most likely had something to do with some sort of an undiscovered mutual benefit. Even so, we were both shocked when Deb found the following information which we posted in $$$The Mahaney Money Machine$$$
PRESIDENT’S COUNCIL (Cumulative gifts of $100,000 or more)
Individuals
(1) C.J. Mahaney
Businesses, Denominations and Foundations(2) Sovereign Grace Ministries
Gaithersburg, MarylandSUSTAINING MEMBER (Cumulative gifts of $15,000 to $24,999)
Churches
(3) Covenant Life Church
Gaithersburg, MarylandIt’s noteworthy to mention that PDI gave to SBTS in 2002 at the Leader’s Associate level ($5,000 to $9,999). BTW, that was the same year that Sovereign Grace Ministries came into existence.
If you want to see for yourself, go to this link:
http://www.sbts.edu/media/publications/magazine/2008Spring.pdf ( Mahaney and SGM are listed on page 43, and CLC is on page 44.)
Think about this folks. Why would a non SBC entity, which has a vigorous church planting ministry, take their hard earned money and give it to a denomination of which they are not members? Also, why did they bother with a seminary? SGM had its own truncated and questionable Pastors College? At this point, the two of us suspected that some things were going on behind the scenes.
1. Could there be talk of merging SGM into the SBC?
2. If Mahaney, CLC and SGM gave this much money to SBTS, were they giving money to other groups and individuals?
3. Are there any other contributions which might help us understand the reasons why Mahaney and SGM have been held in such high esteem by the Calvinista leaders? Surely it can't be his silly sports ramblings, can it?
The relationships between SBC leaders and CJ Mahaney/SGM appeared to be growing closer.
Later, in 2010, we wrote a post WHAT THE SBC AND SGM AREN’T TELLING THEIR MEMBERS .
We will be discussing the SBC's IMB debacle on Friday. Has SBC church planting in well heeled suburbs contributed to the decline in IMB contributions? Did you know that SGM wasn't really big on foreign missions to the poor?
Now we turn to our members in our former denomination, the SBC. Did you know that most of the members of T4G who are both Baptist and reformed are best buddies with C.J. Mahaney? I know my former pastor is. Did all you good SBC types know that old C.J. doesn’t do much in the way of missions? You see, his churches planted predominantly in suburbia are the missions. Yep, this includes the ones in the rich areas as well. John Piper publicly addressed this issue with C.J. about ten years ago. But C.J. had bigger fish to fry. There is money to be made, doctrine to be made up, and football games to attend. Funny thing about this is that Piper has slowed down on the criticism.
In 2010, again, we noted MAHANEY’S METEORIC RISE IN THE SBC.
Why would CJ be picked as a speaker for SBC pastors? During this time, there was a concerted effort being made to put Calvinista Baptists into positions of influence in the SBC. It would seem they were successful. Why Mahaney?
Surprise, surprise, surprise!!! Guess who’s speaking at the “2010 Southern Baptist Convention Pastors’ Conference”?
As the title of the post indicates, it’s none other than C.J. Mahaney. Wait a minute!!! Is Mahaney Southern Baptist? Absolutely not! He heads up a “family of churches” known as Sovereign Grace Ministries. Why in the world will Mahaney be addressing Southern Baptists?
In 2011 we wrote (ya gotta love it) Sovereign Grace Ministries and the SBC – Is There a Merger in the Works?
In this post we outlined the apparently deep admiration that Al Mohler had for CJ Mahaney.
Yes, the SBC/SGM connection is getting stronger by the day. Need proof? Guess who delivered the chapel message at Southern Seminary just last Thursday (2/10/11). Here’s a hint… It was the person who believes Al Mohler is “the smartest man on the planet” and said so at Resolved 2010. Yes, the chapel speaker was none other than C.J. Mahaney. That morning Mohler sent out the following Tweet:“Come hear CJ Mahaney in chapel this morning at 10:00. Don’t miss it. Don’t even think of missing it. Can’t wait to hear his message.”
Mohler’s next Tweet gave the link to streaming video of Mahaney’s talk, which yours truly watched. It was the first time I had ever seen Mahaney in a coat and tie. He began by explaining to the students that he only has a high school education. Perhaps if he had revealed to them that he and Sovereign Grace Ministries combined have made contributions in excess of $200,000 to Southern Seminary, they would have understood why Mohler believes this high school grad is qualified to address them on the topic of “Deflating the Puffed Up Church” .
Then Mohler provided the link to Mahaney’s message on Twitter, along with a Tweet that he was eating dinner with C.J. and that the waiter is a SBTS student. Mahaney continued to be a popular topic in Mohler’s Twitter account the next day. He provided the link to streaming video of Mahaney’s talk at the Recalibrate Conference (for college students), and then tweeted “C.J. Mahaney knocked it out of the park. What a great message. If you missed it, download it. RECALIBRATE.”
Further indications that the relationship between CJ Mahaney and the SBC Calvinistas were becoming increasingly cozy in spite of the sex abuse scandal in SGM.
The Calvinista Baptist leaders' unwavering support for the embattled Mahaney
For purposes of this post, we will not be delving into the SGM sex abuse scandal and the lawsuits. However, those scandals were well known throughout the evangelical world. Yet, the Calvinista Baptist leaders stood firmly by CJ's side throughout the awful revelations, even writing missives of their undying belief in the innocence of CJ and expressing little if any empathy for the alleged numerous victims.
Here is a portion of their stated support from our post T4G and Integrity: Mahaney Is Gone and So Is the Infamous Statement.
May 23, 2013. In it, he provided two links to the infamous statement.
Albert Mohler, Mark Dever, and Lig Duncan have issued a statement expressing their love for and confidence in C. J. Mahaney. You need to read the whole thing. Here’s an excerpt:
"We have stood beside our friend, C. J. Mahaney, and we can speak to his personal integrity… A Christian leader, charged with any credible, serious, and direct wrongdoing, would usually be well advised to step down from public ministry. No such accusation of direct wrongdoing was ever made against C. J. Mahaney. Instead, he was charged with founding a ministry and for teaching doctrines and principles that are held to be true by vast millions of American evangelicals. For this reason, we, along with many others, refused to step away from C. J. in any way. We do not regret that decision. We are profoundly thankful for C. J. as friend, and we are equally thankful for the vast influence for good he has been among so many Gospel-minded people."
I am so thankful to see these men release this statement. Consider this my cosign. Read the rest here.
Why did SBTS offer Baptist tuition breaks to the SGM non-Baptist students?
Many SGM/SBC watchers were startled to learn the Al Mohler's SBTS gave tuition tax breaks to SGM pastors. That's right. The tuition breaks meant for SBC students were allegedly being given to non-SBC students. You can read our post: Did Southern Seminary Give ‘Baptist’ Tuition Breaks and Academic Perks to SGM Pastors?
After the Grant Layman testimony in the Nate Morales trial those tuition breaks were rescinded.
Here are some quotes from this letter sent by SGM to its people.
Dear Brothers,
I’m writing with some disappointing news. Southern Seminary has informed me that it is discontinuing the formal relationship between Southern and Sovereign Grace. This is a rather complex situation, and I’m unable to share all of the internal factors influencing their decision. Suspicions cast upon Sovereign Grace by the ongoing civil suit, and again by the recent Morales case, have unfortunately produced pressures upon various friends and partners of Sovereign Grace. Such factors appear to have played a role in this suspension.
In sum, there is no longer a special agreement between SBTS and Sovereign Grace. Pastors College graduates may pursue degrees, credit-transfers, and financial aid like any other student, just not under the auspices of any agreement with SBTS.
At this point, a number of insiders informed us that it was *all over* for CJ Mahaney and the SBC. Some said that Al Mohler was distancing himself from CJ due to the sex abuse mess. However, your dedicated hosts were suspicious. If money is involved, the ties that bind are often made of steel.
CJ Mahaney has done gone Baptist on us.
True confession: The Deebs love to research this stuff. We are weird in that way. We have always found it fascinating and used to meet at Panera bread to discuss our thoughts and findings. We are so grateful that all of you are willing to come along for the ride. Each morning, armed with a strong cup of coffee, Dee spends at least an hour reading various news site, church websites, survivors' blogs and Twitter. The two of us often revisit old stories to see what's happening.
SGC Louisville is an SBC Church.
On Monday morning, Dee rolled on over to the SGC Louisville website ( home of CJ Mahaney) and decided to look closely at the "about us" section. Folks, when you are trying to figure out a church, always read the fine print under these sections. There, I found this statement that made me quite curious. It said that SGC Louisville was
partnering with the SBC for purposes of training and gospel mission.
Huh? I wondered how to SBC felt about this partnership. So, I went on over to SBC.net. There I noted, under the church search section, the following:
The church was now a member of the SBC. But, I still wasn't 100% sure.
CJ Mahaney, Brian Chesemore and Gary Ricucci are Baptists.
Then, to be absolutely sure that I was not hallucinating, I decided to check under the SBC minister search section. There I discovered that CJ is an SBC pastor. (I apologize for the clarity of some of these screen shots.)
He is joined in this solemn conversion process by Brian Chesemore and Gary Ricucci (son in law and brother in law.)
The SBC recognized SGC Louisville as a Baptist church at their 2015 convention.
The President of the SBC Ronnie Floyd, appointed a member of SGC Louisville to the influential Teller's Committee and called the members of the committee "great leaders of great integrity."
When the messengers of the Southern Baptist Convention are called upon to vote via ballot, the members of the Tellers Committee are responsible for tabulating the outcome of the vote. It is requested of me, as President, to appoint the Tellers Committee.
When a ballot vote occurs, the tellers tabulate the vote under the supervision of the Registration Secretary of the Convention. When messengers complete their registration in Columbus, they will be given printed ballots for voting.
After the tabulation of the ballots, the Chairman of the Tellers Committee reports the outcome of the vote to the secretaries. The results are announced as soon as possible.
By the nature of their responsibility, this committee is very pivotal in conducting business when these moments occur. We must insure it is led by and contains great leaders of integrity.
Questions TWW has for the SBC
- When did SGC Louisville, CJ Mahaney and family become members of the SBC? The membership of the Tellers Committee was named in April 2015 so it must have happened prior to the date.
- Was this move a way to get around the tuition rules for SBTS? if SGC Louisville is a member of the SBC, along with their newly Baptist pastors, could any SGC pastor join SGC Louisville and become Baptist to get Baptist tuition breaks?
- What role did Al Mohler play in all of this?
- Why is SGC Louisville the only SGC church which has *gone* Baptist as far as I can tell?
- Will CJ Mahaney insist that all SGC churches become Baptist like he did when he decided to adopt Calvinism?
-
Does CJ Mahaney know that the IMB does not allow missionaries to speak in private prayer languages or has he given up charismatic worship?
Update 9/16: Just in time for CJ, missionaries can now speak in private prayer languages. - Will prophecy microphones still be allowed at SGC churches?
- Did the SBC or SGC publicly announce this addition to their respective organizations?
- Did the newly minted Baptist pastors at SGC Louisville announce this to their members? Do the members now know they are Baptist?
- Does SGC Louisville give to the Lottie Moon Christmas Fund?
- Does SGC Louisville give to the Cooperative Program?
- Has anyone else or any other entity in the SBC received funds from SGM/SGC?
- How does this impact the following resolution offered by Peter Lumpkin and voted on by the SBC? "RESOLVED: that we encourage all denominational leaders and employees of the Southern Baptist Convention to utilize the highest sense of discernment in affiliating with groups and/or individuals that possess questionable policies and practices in protecting our children from criminal abuse…"
- How does this impact the public's view of the SBC which has been dogged by a number of alleged child sex abuse scandals?
Finally, TWW would love to find out how many SGC pastors are now attending SBTS or other Baptist seminaries and receiving tuition breaks because they are now members of SGC Louisville, an SBC church.
Can I get an Amen?!
Deebs,
I just received this email in response to my asking the SBC if Sovereign Grace Louisville was a SBC church:
Dear Todd:
Thank you for contacting us. Our records show that Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville has at some level indicated its desire to cooperate with the Southern Baptist Convention. According to our records, it has contributed to Convention causes in the current budget year, which would make it eligible to seat messengers at the 2016 SBC annual meeting, though it has not in previous years. However, you would need to check with the church directly to verify that this is indeed the case. We recommend that you contact the church if you have any questions about its support of or involvement with SBC ministries.
We hope this helps.
Blessings,
Office of Convention Communications and Relations
Executive Committee of the Southern Baptist Convention
901 Commerce Street
Nashville, TN 37203
(615) 244-2355
@ Todd Wilhelm:
Thank you, Todd. Their answer is baloney. Did they mention the Teller’s Committee at the 2015 SBC convention?
I think they are not happy that we have discovered this.
Amen. And Amen.
If Futrick’s Elevation Church and Noble’s NewSpring Church are members of the SBC, why not Mahaney’s latest reincarnation? There’s probably a split in the SBC’s future.
You ladies are doing a damn fine job! Especially in regards to DW. Please keep pouring it on.
Dee and Deb,
With regard to bullet point 6, private prayer languages, Baptist pastor Wade Burleson recently reported on his blog that this ban was recently reversed:
http://www.wadeburleson.org/2015/05/from-tragedy-to-triumph-imb-reverses.html
@ Steve:
Thank you, Brother Steve!
LOL! LOL! LOL! – punctuation, not yelling. There is no end to CJ’s colors changing to get what he wants for himself and his family.
Also wondering if the Louisville Church knows they are now Baptist? Does SGC corporate know of this occurance?
Can they be Baptist and SGC??
i feel the way i did in 8th grade science when i first smelled fermaldehyde.
Is now the time for me to officially ask to withdraw my membership to an SBC affiliated Baptist church???
The SBC is, for all intents and purposes, taking bribes from and supporting men who protect child abusers …. secrets ~ CCR says ask someone else …. We’re not sure. Yes, baloney! If SGC is eligible to send messengers, they are a member of the SBC!
If CJ saves the IMB, I don’t want to be any part of it. But, I’m a female, so what do I know?
Here’s something that I couldn’t ignore. If someone wants to link this to Survivors be my guest! Cru (formerly Campus Crusade for Christ) at George Mason University recommends that its students attend Sovereign Grace Fairfax, among a couple of other churches. Yes you read that right. I wrote about it below.
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/09/16/why-does-cru-at-george-mason-university-recommend-sovereign-grace-fairfax-is-that-wise/
dee wrote:
No, they did not. Above is the total content of what I received from them.
I wonder if Mahaney’s church is planning on withdrawing from the Sovereign Grace denomination? There is a detailed process in their Book of Church Order they must follow if they wish to withdraw. As a church plant, they would be required to pay back funds they have received from the national office if they withdraw in the first five years of membership. Each year the amount is reduced by 20% beginning with 100% the first year.
My personal feeling is Mahaney was simply planning on keeping one foot in each denomination. The SG denomination is reportedly in a financial quagmire and if giving does not increase substantially within the next year they will have drained all their reserves and will no longer be financially viable. At that point, Mahaney would bolt the denomination and take up full-time, open residence with the SBC.
Your revelation may have prematurely forced Mahaney’s hand, although I doubt Mark Prater and the national leadership board have the courage to confront Mahaney. Mahaney has always done what he has wanted.
The rift between Mahaney and Prater is fairly obvious. The national headquarters for the denomination is purportedly Louisville, yet Prater is never there. The last PC graduating class was in the Spring of 2013. Mahaney headed up the ceremonies and, as far as I know, Prater was not even in attendance.
I would like to know how much money Mahaney/Sov Grace Louisville has donated to the SBC this year. I would think it was very significant to garner a position on the Tellers Committee. If Mahaney truly cared about the Sovereign Grace denomination he would have donated the money to the Sovereign Grace Churches national office instead of the SBC. His actions indicate he actually wants Sovereign Grace churches to collapse.
I would also like to know why the SBC needs yet another church in Louisville. It looks to me like they already have in excess of 164 churches in the city, do they really need another?
http://www.sbc.net/churchsearch/results.asp?query=louisville%2C+KY
Of course, the obvious answer is the SBC also needs the money but is the cash in the coffers generated by Mahaney’s church worth all the baggage he brings into the denomination? They may not think so if Gary Ricucci or C.J. Mahaney are criminally charged at some point in the future.
@ Todd Wilhelm:
The first rule of Calvinist Club is you don’t talk about Calvinist Club. The second rule of Calvinist Club is – You do not talk about Calvinist Club!
In the words of Boris Badonov, Hoo boy!
Just a small correction: They’re now letting in missionaries who speak in tongues.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2015/may-web-only/imb-ban-speaking-in-tongues-baptism-baptist-missionary.html
Well that about tears it. Between CJ and McDonald at the convention, I’d say Albert is consolidating his forces. He now has Calvinists in charge at every entity but two of the seminaries. Both those leaders are pretty old and really have very little influence to speak of. Albert on the other hand has the ears of those who matter. It would not surprise me to see a rift turn to a big split with the neo cals taking the majority of entities and what few resources are left and somehow claim to be the real sbc. Just sad and crazy.
As someone else pointed out the only way members of SGC could have been appointed to that comittee would be for them to be considered a cooperating church in good standing. That should be eye opening to many SBC members and.churches. there are many SBC churches and I would dare say most of them have never.been honored in this way and here some new.Johnny come lately church has a member posted to a committee in what was probably its first year as a cooperating church. Just sad. Dang one more issue that complicats my future. Should I stay or should I go now!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xMaE6toi4mk
Not sure if the link will come thru or not but think it might be time for sbcers to ask themselves this question.
almost60 wrote:
Yes, that decision was made a month or two ago. David Platt spoke in favor of “private prayer tongues”.
original mitch wrote:
As a non Calvinist member of an sbc church and seminary student, I have been wondering for a few years when this would happen. I hope it doesn’t, but it seems the sbc Calvinists often want to hold power and get rid of our minimize the influence of non Calvinists. Too bad we can’t just worry about preaching the Gospel and working together to serve despite theological differences.
Jeremy wrote:
Sorry, there is no working together with non Calvinists. Remember Spurgeon said that Calvinism is the Gospel, and I can guarantee that there are few in the current crop of Calvinists who would disagree. Also, Dever has said that the God of the Arminians is not the real God (the Calvinist version). How can they compromise with someone who is preaching something other than the true Gospel, and that of a lesser God.
Jeremy wrote:
Tell me about it.
Consider “Together for the Gospel” and “The Gospel Coalition” – two deceptively-named entities that are Neo-Calvinist, but attempt to portray themselves as broadly “Christian.”
Will M wrote:
Yeah, it is unfortunate. I recently visited the new multi-million dollar Spurgeon library (built to house his books and such) on my campus. Kind of interesting historically, but I was not thrilled to see all that money spent idolizing someone so divisive.
Mr.H wrote:
Yeah, yay rhetoric. Just like calling Calvinism the doctrines of grace. Who doesn’t want to affirm grace? Saying you disbelieve the doctrines of grace sounds bad.
Jeremy wrote:
Welcome to the club. I have been at the point.of trying to decide if I’m even gonna bother finishing. Between the neo cals, female subordinationism, inerrant interpretations of the leaders and.out right despotism masquerading as pastoral leadership, I am about to usher with the whole thing and.am very close to going ng from seminary to being a done. I never would have imagined it but most times I’m in church on sit there thinking, I can’t believe I got up, got dressed, hunted for parking so I could hear the latest happenings in the pastors life. The would rather go fishing.
SBC catches charismania – whod’ve thunk it?!?
Dee, check your auto-correct. Brian’s name somehow turned into “Brian Chastener” the first time it appears in your post.
Surely CJM’s reailgnment into the SBC has nothing to do with the megabucks he donated to SBTS. They wouldn’t ever engage in such mutual back-scratching.
@ the Deebs :
You guys have the uncanny ability to known when the cockroaches are thickest on the floor before you switch the lights on.
@ Todd Wilhelm:
Just wondering how big the SG Louisville church is (average Sunday attendance) and where does the money donated to the SBC come from?
Louisville SGC becomes part of the SBC. Watch for other SG churches to follow. And now, members of those churches will be eligible for the ‘member’ price for seminary tuition. The good part of this, if there is one, is that there’s more money to support decent, hardworking missionaries through the IMB in Richmond, which has or will soon lay off another 600-800 workers and missionaries. (This from sbc.org, the letter to the churches from the president of the IMB dated September 4.)
Historically, the SBC exists for the express purpose of collectively supporting missionaries. Each SBC must belong to a local Baptist association in order to be part of the SBC. I found this out by doing a little checking a few years back, when the pastor of the church I attended decided the church would no longer pay any dues to the local Baptist association because he didn’t see the point. He had no idea that the church could not be part of the SBC without a local affiliation, and the church nearly got kicked out of both.
When it comes to the actual yearly convention, the delegates get together and vote upon issues. But the votes are not binding on any congregation — they’re just ‘guidelines’, as in Pirates of the Caribbean. The local congregation can pretty much do anything they want to do. Check out sbc.org to find out what Baptists believe. The great thing, is that IMB missionaries do not have to raise their own support. They are funded through the churches and the specific Lottie Moon and Annie Armstrong offerings at Christmas and Easter.
I was shocked to find that members of my local Baptist church didn’t know a thing about the organization to which the church belongs.
If someone had told me, years ago, that CJM would be getting in bed with the Baptists, I might have replied that was about as likely as GE soliciting a prostitute. Shows how much I know!
Nickname wrote:
I am 51 years old. I have been a member of .sBC churches since I was 14. I had never heard of the ” Conservative Resurgence” or the ” Baptist Faith and Message” until 2011.
I am ashamed to say that most of us throw our tithes in the plates without any clues as to what goes on in the SBC.
From the post:
“Did the newly minted Baptist pastors at SGC Louisville announce this to their members? Do the members now know they are Baptist?”
Dee,
The above questions made me chuckle. Why? Because there are Southern Baptist churches right in our area with members who have no idea that they attend a Southern Baptist church. It is truly mind boggling!
@ Stan:
What Calvinista Club???
Deb wrote:
Yep-my husband told an acquaintance that he was Baptist because he went to X church. The guy denied it. Bill showed him the listing. The SBC has a real problem when their own churches hide the fact they are SBC.
@ original mitch:
Love it! Yes, that is the question…
@ Dave MacKenzie:
Thank you for pointing this out. I engaged autocorrect for the names. I have no idea what happened with the first Chesemore.
@ Deb:
Actually, the fact that the SBC is playing footsies with troubled ministry leaders speaks to their ethics.
Nickname wrote:
Excellent comment!
@ original mitch:
You could stay but don’t sign a membership contract and don’t give them any money. Once the money goes, they will listen.
Nancy2 wrote:
This is what worries me… Sadly, many Southern Baptists are clueless about what’s happening in their denomination.
Nancy2 wrote:
I am glad to hear that. Too bad he didn’t speak in terms of saving money. The iMB is in the hole. Tune in Friday for that!
Bridget wrote:
If CJ says they can, then they can. Remember when he said he was the head apostle, he was the head apostle.
dee wrote:
Exactly, and although I didn’t list it earlier, it is the ethics that I see practiced more than anything else that is driving me out of the SBC, or should I say lack of ethics. The SBC spends so much time critiquing the world and using what they have determined to be the biblical standard and yet never once say a word about what goes on inside the convention and its member churches or other closely connected ministries. There is a serious disconnect here that most SBCers just do not see.
Nancy2 wrote:
CJ couldn’t even save SGM from their monetary woes. Remember, his ministry is not doing well. He probably doesn’t have enough to spend these days to….Hmmmmm, let me give an example. This is purely fictional and does not have any relationship to any sort of real life example. I will deny it vigorously if I am accused of it. Back to my fictional example…
CJ doesn’t have enough money coming in from his tithes to throw at any theologian in need of a sabbatical, for example…..
Also, attend an SBC church, just don’t join it. Give your money to a ministry that your respect.
original Mitch wrote:
The numbers of members in the SBC, along with baptisms and money is on a downward spiral. Some of the faithful are getting cold feet.
I feel like I just entered the Twilight Zone, and I’m going to wake up in the morning and realize that it was all just a bad dream. Who said that absolute power corrupts absolutely? Hello?
When I was at Southeastern, Mahaney was invited to speak, and I was not happy. I asked the seminary President why all these Calvinist speakers were invited on a consistent basis. Even Driscoll, for the sake of all that is holy! The answer I received was that Arminians would not be asked to speak in chapel or at a conference because most of them did not hold to Inerrancy.
I see. So, as long as one holds to Inerrancy, then little else matters — like, you know, being accused of covering up sex abuse scandals (Mahaney); suggesting that Congregationalism is of Satan (MacDonald); or cussing in the pulpit, being inappropriately sexual in sermons, and misogynistic (Driscoll). Right.
Nickname wrote:
That has to be the funniest comment of the month!!!!!
Dee,
Remember this Tweet by Al Mohler back in 2010 (included in the Sovereign Grace Ministries and the SBC – Is There a Merger in the Works? post)?
Can't you just picture this happening? From the post:
To which I wrote: "It really is amazing what you can learn through Twitter…"
Muff Potter wrote:
Well, I do hate bugs…
@ Todd Wilhelm:
Well said, Todd. I would love to know how much money CJ has thrown at the SBC-seminaries, pastors, theologians, etc. For awhile he had a cash cow. But Bessie is plain out of milk. The question is how much money does he still have to give to his BFFs and where did it come from?
CJ has been invited to speak at SBTS and, as such, has helped to train the next generation of wannabe apostles. But rumor has it that zealous graduates are having difficulties in finding jobs that will guarantee them a nice house and car and plenty of travel money and sabbaticals to write books and speak at conferences while at the same time beating up on tithes who they deem worthy of church discipline for questioning their conference schedules.
I wonder, Tood, do you think CJ ever gave any money to the ministry of 9 Marx or Mark “Captain, oh my Captain” Dever? Given the rather large chunk of change he has given to SBTS, my guess is that he could have given money to other BFFs….Dever did break the inviolable 9 Marks tradition and allowed CJ to hide out at CHBC. I wonder why?
@ Deb:
I do remember laughing about that. i wonder what CJ and Al were wearing?
William wrote:
We were asking the same questions. Yeah-the most important thing is their doctrines of grace which have little to do with grace. And who gives a fig about sex abuse victims. CJ and Driscoll like Calvin so nothing else matters.
Jeremy wrote:
And it is something that I now say quite a bit. It is time to start calling them on it.
Will M wrote:
Dever compromises when it involves a fellow member of the “good ‘ol boys” network. He allowed Mahaney to attend his church when he fled CLC. He stated that those who hold to padeobaptism are sinning yet maintains friendships with Ligon Duncan, among others.
https://thouarttheman.org/2013/06/28/is-9marks-view-of-baptism-biblical
Rather ironic that they are honoring the Reformation leaders at the next T4G conference. Most, if not all held to the “sinful” doctrine of padeobaptism and drowned those who held to Dever and Mohler’s view!
@ dee:
Don't forget Russell Moore. Sounds like there were three of them involved in the exchange with the server.
@ Todd Wilhelm:
Which also makes me scratch my head as to how these Baptists can still call themselves Reformed! Uh, no, sorry — the Reformers would have drowned their Calvinism-loving arse just the same.
Wrote a post on it, if I’m permitted to link to it: Why Baptistic Calvinists are Not Reformed.
SGC Louisville Sunday attendance seems to be in the range of roughly 180-200 based on the photos I’ve seen from this year, not including any people in kids’ classes in other rooms.
dee wrote:
Who needs Christ when you have CALVIN?
CALVIN who has God All Figured Out?
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
Do you suppose that Mark Dever’s 9Marks idea, complete with Membership Covenants and elder rule, has been a carefully honed long-term strategy by him and others to take over the SBC by the NeoCalvinists?
If you’ve never been in a Baptist church, or don’t know much about them, you might be surprised to find that the SBC is not a denomination with a ruling hierarchy. They are, as SGM wrongly termed itself, a true ‘family of churches.’ Nobody can come down from the SBC and tell any church what to do — there’s no bishop, no presbytery, no uh, apostles!
The fact that there’s no hierarchy is the excuse the SBC has used for refusing to maintain a database of pastors/staff who are sex offenders. If that’s the case, they really shouldn’t even have the list of SB pastors on which CJM and sons-in-law are the newest names. If they had the sex offender list, it’s possible that some names would appear on both lists. Sad.
I have been lurking here for a few years due to past hurts from a few churches you have focused on. I am now attending a very large SBC for the great preaching backed up by the pastors life testimony in our community. BUT other than giving a small amount each week that I feel covers what space I take up, this just confirms my resolve to take the bulk of my weekly offering to God and use it prayerfully for the poor and needy, for real mission funds that I have diligently investigated so as not to be paying slothful people to loaf and vacation on the mission field. Giving now days is hard work if your heart is to see the real great commission fulfilled. Thank you for your work
Will M wrote:
This sounds reminiscent of a recent comment I remember from Natalie’s father, how their pastor turned his wife against him, and called him a heretic for his Eastern Orthodox beliefs. I found it quoted in a comment to the previous TWW post to this one.
Apparently there is still unfinished business as Natalie’s father Gary Greenfield posted this over at Katie Botkin’s website yesterday at 10:21 p.m. about Peter’s letter:
“Dear Peter, As I stated in my last letter to you, yes, I do forgive you for your pastoral failures in regards to the way you dealt with Natalie’s abuse. What you have to this day neglected to repent of is your complicity in ripping our marriage apart with your own abusive and irresponsible accusations against me in front of my wife. When we came to you for pastoral care regarding our marriage, I knew I was going into the lions den when we met with you but I was desperate to win my wife back and she is the one who insisted on meeting with you. It is still vivid in my memory watching my wife break down emotionally and run out of the restaurant we met at because of your accusations against me of being a heretic and idolator because I was embracing the ancient faith of Eastern Orthodoxy.”
http://kbotkin.com/2015/09/10/the-letter-on-christ-church-stationary/#comment-8282
refugee wrote:
What is the matter with these ‘pastors?’ Must they play god with people? I’m just heart-broken and nauseated with what happened to this family “under the care of pastors.” They actually serve a very small god limited by their own small minds.
I know this thread is about Mahaney, however, I thought Wartburg Watch readers would be interested in knowing that J.D. Hall has addressed the Sitler case. Hey Dee, he mentioned you and TWW. 😉
http://pulpitandpen.org/2015/09/14/douglas-wilson-pedophiles-and-pastors/
Shoot, I cannot log into JD’s blog to comment. Not sure what is going on. I’ll have to tweet, instead. It’s funny, because the other day I sent JD a note asking him what he thought about the case (especially since he’s fairly close to DW territory) and he said he didn’t know much about it. I sent him some links to edumacate him quickly. I’ve been waiting for this post 🙂 He really likes us, Dee:
Darlene wrote:
I guess JD hasn’t read the Bayley Brothers blog articles saying that this marriage between pedophile Sitler and Katie should have never taken place.
And in my book it’s just another example of the stunning failures of the patriarchy/comps crowd who like to see themselves as serving and protecting women, like cops. But the comps are failures.
JD wants to know what we would do? For starters, a Moscow, Id church elder could have picked a better spouse for Katie by closing his eyes, opening up the phone book to any page, and pointing his finger at a man’s name. Or the pastors/elders could have pled incompetence and gave the job to unbelievers to find a spouse for Katie. Unbelievers could have done a better job! They wouldn’t have ignored that Stitler was a pedophile!!
Whomever posted the other day here that we wouldn’t tell a Christian diabetic that they had been cured and to stop taking insulin, but that we are to take the word of a pedophile that they are cured — made a great argument!
dee wrote:
Agreed. Rhetoric like that makes the disagreement more divisive. When Calvinists try to frame it as, “you disagree with the doctrines of grace” rather than, “you disagree with my interpretation of soteriology and providence.” they are trying to raise the stakes of disagreeing with them. It would be nice if people could disagree about their theological opinions without trying to demonize one another like Dever saying Arminians don’t worship the true God, as someone else quoted him, that is so toxic.
original mitch wrote:
I can identify with your frustrations. My seminary has been changing a lot lately, and while some things are for the better, I find quite a bit discouraging as well. I would encourage you to keep going though. In a time when, as you alluded to, people follow after celebrity Christians, being able to study the Bible yourself and help others in that direction is a valuable skill. I am doing my language studies now and it’s nice to be developing the ability to evaluate the claims people make about the Bible better.
Presumably this means that the church in Louisville will soon be holding Baptist business meetings?
@ Clay Crouch:
Please tell me that Furtick’s church is not Southern Baptist.
@ Velour:
So Klingon prayers are okay, then?
Christiane wrote:
It is.
dee wrote:
Yes, Dee, the Humble One has given money to Mark Dever. I don’t know how much, but I am sure it was significant. I wonder if it was his money or money tithed by the good people attending SGM churches? We know in the case of donations given to Albert Mohler/SBTS Mahaney donated his own money, money from the SGM organization and also money from Covenant life church. Your average pew-sitter in the SGM corporation most likely had no idea their tithes were being sent to SBTS.
Mahaney’s method to ingratiate himself to the power brokers in the neo-Calvinist movement has been to throw lots of money their way and shamelessly flatter then in public. It has worked well.
Here is a video where Dever mentions that Mahaney has given him money:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbjtwkOUcbM
Mahaney also gave money to Wayne Grudem (that money was probably tithed to SGM) to allow Grudem to take a sabbatical from Phoenix Seminary and work on the ESV translation. Below is a comment from Paul K on the SGM Survivors website. Paul K attended CLC and knew all the bigshots there. He seemed to have a lot of insider knowledge. Once again Mahaney purchased Grudem’s friendship and Grudem has remained a rock-solid supporter of Mahaney’s.
“Paul K. says:
July 9, 2013 at 7:01 am
(1) Did u know CJ used SGM funds so Grudem could take a full half year off teaching at the seminary in Phoenix to head up the group of men who did the ESV Translation? Jeff Purswell was a teaching assistant to Grudem and adapted Systematic Theology into a smaller book. CJ has actually found ways to encourage these guys in their ministries to the point they look to him for counsel – CJ knows how to win-over just about anyone who doesn’t know him well (with money, humor, praise, encouragement of the next project they should do, having them come speak to a standing ovation they’ve never experienced before) but those days are over – now it’s “their turn” to help him. Cronyism : a sadly disturbing unchristlike carnal “ism” of man – diabolically contradictory to the Word and the Spirit.”
Pippa wrote:
Pippa,
I am not sure on the exact attendance of the Sovereign Grace/Southern Baptist Church of Louisville. Approximately one year ago I was researching for a blog article, which I never ended up writing, and I contacted the Marriott Hotel where the Humble One holds his weekly services. The employee guessed that about 100 people attended their weekly meeting. Based on photos of their weekly meetings on Instagram I think that count was fairly accurate. They used to post weekly photos of their meetings on Instagram, but they ceased doing that a long time ago. IMO they were embarrassed by the lack of growth.
They recently published a photo of the Sunday gathering which you can see here:
https://instagram.com/p/7TG9PNp9PT/?taken-by=sgclouisville
It is tough to get an accurate count from the photo, but I would guess maybe 150 are in attendance. It should be noted the Louisville church has their attendance inflated due to the fact that the 12 men attending the 9 month Pastor’s “College,” along with their wives and children all attend the service.
If I ever get to the Louisville area you can bet I will pay a visit and obtain an accurate count!
@ Nancy2:
You know, most of us just want to serve God in our area without drama, without worrying about denominational politics, and our upbringing has taught us that that looks like church participation.
God will still bless your tithe even if you don’t know what it’s going to!
Cheerful, Ignorant Givers.
@ Julie Anne:
Who’s running spellcheck @ P&P? Leaches?
You’re thinking of “leeches”, JD.
@Dee
In case you have not seen a recent interview Ed Stetzer and
Kevin Ezell on evangelism and church planting
Dr. Kevin Ezell, President of the North American Mission Board, discusses strategic vision, direction, and leadership for North America evangelism and church planting
https://vimeo.com/139236854
I watched this yesterday. I wondered just how much money has been reallocated from the IMB to the NAMB over the last 5 years. How does restructuring of the NAMB with Ezell relate to what is going on at the IMB? Of course Stetzer is applauding all the shifts.
@ Christiane:
Wish I could, Christiane.
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
Deep down inside, they believe they are smarter than those reformers. They are now Reforming the Reformed to look like them. And CJ looks exactly like them. That is why they love him.Don’t let a fewness of child sex abuse or some stupid emails derail you. Carry on, my good man, carry on!
@ Dave MacKenzie:
It’s nice to have old Al Mohler pushing your church by having CJ and company over to the seminary now and then.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
And they have Calvin all figured out so you can just listen to them.
Nickname wrote:
In reality, they can get rid of churches. They have done so with those who have women as pastors. But, they pick and choose. That is why they keep churches with undulate with sex abuse issues. Many of those churches have the *correct* leaders.
Donna wrote:
Dee is sending you a standing ovation from Raleigh. Give your money to worthy organizations that you have investigated. The so called glorified *local* church can do without a coffee bar expansion or fog machine.
@ refugee:
Did you know that Mark Dever’s church supposedly gave permission for a former member to attend an Orthodox church?They *researched* it and gave it Dever’s *seal of approval.*
@ Darlene:
Deep down inside, JD Hall likes me.
@ Julie Anne:
Who wouldn’t like us? We can be so gosh darn adorable…
@ original mitch:
@ Jeremy:
I’m agreeing with Jeremy here.
We need teachers who want to actually teach the Bible.
Not yes men and the good ol’ boys club.
II Timothy 2:15
[Pulled a Wilson and threw a verse atcha 😉 ]
dee wrote:
Last night during a study of the Book of Confessions (PC-USA), a comment was made regarding early church leaders who formulated the Nicene Creed , “These guys were smart,” to which someone replied, ” You know we didn’t invent smart.” I think Mohler and his friends need to be reminded that “they didn’t invent smart” either.
It’s not surprising that this development had to be tracked down through investigative techniques by the Deebs; the modus operandi of SBC’s New Calvinist movement is stealth and deception. Dr. Mohler has proven to be an excellent strategist, a 5-star/5-point general for the New Calvinist army of young, restless, and reformed. James MacDonald, another Dr. Mohler Calvinist buddy, was a controversial speaker at the SBC2015 Pastor’s Conference; he essentially stuck his tongue out at those who opposed his presence on the platform by signing up his Harvest Church as a new SBC member right there at the conference! The arrogance of these folks continues to amaze me … but not more than the ignorance of SBC’s majority non-Calvinist membership, who have been easy pickins’ for the new reformation.
In 2013, messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention passed a resolution “On Sexual Abuse of Children.” Though not named, framers of the resolution specifically had Sovereign Grace Ministries in mind when they issued the following charge to SBC leadership (including Dr. Mohler):
“RESOLVED, That we encourage all denominational leaders and employees of the Southern Baptist Convention to utilize the highest sense of discernment in affiliating with groups and or individuals that possess questionable policies and practices in protecting our children from criminal abuse …” http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/1230/on-sexual-abuse-of-children
Of course, Dr. Mohler currently enjoys untouchable-status within SBC, and would ignore this resolution as it might pertain to Mr. Mahaney.
I wonder if SGC-Louisville has signed on with the local Southern Baptist association of churches in the Louisville area – the Long Run Baptist Association … and/or the Kentucky Baptist Convention? I suppose they wouldn’t necessarily have to join those SBC affiliates, but it is customary for SB churches to be involved with and support local and state agencies of the denomination.
@ Nancy2:
Just a small correction: They’re now letting in missionaries who speak in tongues.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2015/may-web-only/imb-ban-speaking-in-tongues-baptism-baptist-missionary.html
Yes, that decision was made a month or two ago. David Platt spoke in favor of “private prayer tongues”.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
hmmm…. did this make the calculations for determining how many angels can, in fact, dance on the head of a pin more efficient or less?
perhaps it’s just a matter of rearranging the variables. Wonder how much time that took. Are David Platt & co. getting paid by the hour?
(it was a good decision. I just hope it was a no-brainer that took all of 37 seconds to state, agree and then hit the gavel, done.)
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
New Calvinism elites indeed belong to a mutual admiration society. C.J. Mahaney has flattered Dr. Mohler more than once in public. His “Al’s stack of books is bigger than your stack of books” is one of my favorites:
“I’ve seen his (Mohler’s) stack of books,” Mahaney said. “If you have a stack of books, I’m saying there’s quite a difference, pretty obvious difference, between your stack and his stack of books. So if you are comforting yourself, ‘I have a stack,’ well you might have a stack, but if we consider the nature and content of your stack as opposed to his stack, well, your stack looks pretty sorry and pathetic.” (Conviction to Lead Conference, 2013).
These are blood brothers on a mission to altar the American church – to make reformed theology the default in every Protestant denomination. They are networked, passionate and serious. The Southern Baptist Convention has already fallen to their scheme.
Jeremy wrote:
You nailed the core. This is what the Neocals seem to be about everywhere–whether stealth takeovers of individual churches or of the SBC demonination. There is a lust for power that appears unchecked by anything the Bible or by what other Christians would say to that. And they are in the business of drawing a line around themselves and saying that those within the line are the “true evangelicals” and those outside are not. Those within the line are “Bible believing” and those who disagree with them on even secondary issues are by implication, “Not-Bible-believing” no matter how carefully the person disagreeing has reasoned their position from Scripture.
@ original mitch:
“I have been at the point.of trying to decide if I’m even gonna bother finishing. Between the neo cals, female subordinationism, inerrant interpretations of the leaders and.out right despotism masquerading as pastoral leadership, ….
…but most times I’m in church on sit there thinking, I can’t believe I got up, got dressed, hunted for parking so I could hear the latest happenings in the pastors life. The would rather go fishing.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hi, Mitch. What about a different seminary? A different approach. Fuller seminary?
You could revisit your original ambitions/goals/desires, and reinvent them.
The world is your oyster.
Abi Miah wrote:
That is so bizarre….is a stack of books euphemism for something…or overcompensating for a lack of…ah nevermind.
dee wrote:
I must have missed it dee. Mr. Mahaney has claimed he’s an Apostle?
Muff Potter wrote:
When he started out as Founder of People of Destiny/SGM, he titled himself Head Apostle.
Self-proclaimed.
Abi Miah wrote:
“There is no Right, there is no Wrong, there is only POWER.”
— Lord Voldemort
“The only goal of Power is POWER. And POWER consists of inflicting maximum suffering among the powerless.”
— Comrade O’Brian, Inner Party, Airstrip One, Oceania, Nineteen Eighty-Four, LONG LIVE BIG BROTHER!
Bridget wrote:
When you read the opening chapters of James A. Michener’s Hawaii you quickly learn what kind of ‘god’ these guys serve.
Hmmmm…
Before I read the comments, I had the same thoughts as some of the commenters:
1) PDI, the forerunner of SGM, was invested in Charismatic worship and attendant Holy Spirit Activity. Baptists are not known for this, other than the mentioned allowable prayer language for missionaries (I assume others as well?). This new development is going to upset people on both sides of that divide
(Sidebar: I know about this because before they were involved in PDI/SGM, Steve and Vikki Cook attended the same church as my husband and I – we were all not long out of college, so nearly +35 years ago – which was a Calvary Chapel offshoot that had definite Charismatic flavor. We all moved away from that town; we ended up at a Vineyard and they at PDI. Wonder if SGM has moved toward less Charismatic expression along with their move into neo-Calvinism.)
2) This smacks of solidifying Calvinistas in power in the SBC. This is not a good thing. I have never been SoBap, but if I were I would be heading for the doors and not looking back.
3) This Mahaney guy must be extremely good at pulling the wool over people’s eyes – or maybe people like a sheepskin blindfold, or both. Appalling.
4) Why are Dever’s friends not all over his case for “permitting” one of his flock to attend an Orthodox Church? There are not very many neo-Cal Baptists – I can count 1 of personal acquaintance – who don’t view EO as idolatrous and full of “traditions of men.” If Arminians aren’t real Christians….
God help us.
Jeremy wrote:
“If you question what *I* say to you
You Rebel Against The Father, Too!”
— Steve Taylor, “I Manipulate”
Muff Potter wrote:
“The one in a hundred Predestined to walk the Cold, Hard, Grim, Grey, Joyless path of Salvation.”
Nickname wrote:
Not yet, anyway. How much you want to bet that the authoritarian, ‘church discipline’, Calvinista apostles of oppression are working on it?
Mara wrote:
Mara and Jeremy, I know you are both correct and take your words as encouragement. I keep thinking that with the dramatic rise in dones there will be a great need for people who are willing to share in very nontraditional ways and venues. Thats pretty much what I have been doing for years anyway. I have no problem not being in a building called church. I prefer to be with people called the church.
I try to stay up on what goes on in the SBC, but they are good keeping decisions under wraps.
Does SBC now stand for Southern Baptist-Calvinistas?
Nancy2 wrote:
Or Southern Baptist Covert-Ops.
Or Southern Baptist Cover-ups.
Nancy2 wrote:
This is what concerns me.
Will M wrote:
You the Neo-Cals are hard core. You should research John Calvin’s Geneva. #onlyJohn’sway
Original Mitch wrote:
I am pondering starting a Sunday morning bowling league for just this reason. I needed a name for a team and Gram3’s husband Gramp3 came up with a name for me: Holy Rollers. ROFL.
I’m SBC as well and thought I kept up. Looks like they snuck SGM Louisville in with all the fanfare around MacDonald and Harvest at the 2015 meeting. No one I know was aware of this and many of them are more plugged in than me. SMH
What the heck is a “prophecy microphone”?
Gus wrote:
The prophecy mic is a microphone placed near the front of the auditorium for the express purpose of speaking out a prophecy, or saying something in tongues, followed by an interpretation. This way all can clearly hear what is said. But there was another purpose – the mic was “guarded” by one of the pastors. They would screen the speaker prior to allowing them to speak at the mic.
I went up to the mic once in my life. Glyn MacKenzie was the guard. He asked me what I wanted to say and then attempted to reshape what I felt led to say into something more fitting to the over-all flow of the service. I said perhaps I should just go back to my seat, but he told me to sit by the mic and pray about it. All the while the church was singing songs. Finally, after some back and forth with Glyn he basically told me what to say. I felt so used and foolish for allowing myself to be used like that. I should have just went back to my seat. Anyway, I never again went up there to share anything. I felt like it was a total sham.
I just posted an article about my recent trip back to my old SGM church in Gilbert. I talk about how they are really no longer charismatic. I also touch on the apostle thing. When I first started attending they were using it. In my membership interview they asked if I had any questions. I said “yes, what is this apostle thing? The only churches I know that have apostles (Abbott Loop) are cults. To be an apostle you need to have seen the risen Christ.” Trey Richardson went into a long explanation about big “A” and little “a” apostles. I should have run then. It was a cult.
thouarttheman.org
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
Thanks for the answer. BTW, I regularly read your blog.
That sounds really weird. They do have “god in a box” like in paganism.
danlinrm wrote:
I’ve said before that I noticed years ago that many online Calvinists I ran into (even a few I was friends with online) have a lot of intellectual pride.
They will often brag about knowing koine Greek, having read all the early church fathers, they have ten college degrees. I find this attitude a turn off.
I am not a supporter of the other extreme, though. The King James Version Onlyists, who are almost always IFB, are proud to lack education, and they think critical thinking is bad or worldly (so they avoid it, and boy does it show in their arguments on their forums and blogs).
(I wouldn’t say 100% of IFB KJVs are like that, but it sure seems like about 98% are like that.)
Either extreme bugs me – those who are proud of being learned or the other side, those who are proud to be ignorant.
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
What, then, is the stinking point in allowing any Pew Potato to use the mic?
What is a Christian is really led by the Holy Spirit to say yada yada yada, but the Mic Police tells you “no.” -?
If you read the Bible, the kings and stuff didn’t always like what the prophets said to them, stuff that God instructed them to say.
Maybe it’s the same with the Holy Spirit in churches today.
Maybe the Holy Spirit wants to say something that the church’s staff or pastor may not want to hear.
Like, “Take the church’s tithes this month to buy groceries for all the elderly, the single mothers, and adult childless couples on a tight budget in your church, rather than buy a new smoke machine for the church stage, or a make a payment on a new car for the church pastor.”
I know much more about the SBC than Mahaney. I actually know very little about him. Does he promote speaking in tongues? I’m not asking this in the spirit of judging this practice. I just find it very interesting if Mahaney promotes it.
“I am ashamed to say that most of us throw our tithes in the plates without any clues as to what goes on in the SBC.”
This goes on in many churches/denominations/family(ies)-of-churches.
“Actually, the fact that the SBC is playing footsies with troubled ministry leaders speaks to their ethics.” Makes me think of Reagan: “Trust but verify.”
Sometimes I think church-goers are like the Israelites in that they preferred to let Moses go face-to-face with God and then tell them if anything pertinent to their lives was mentioned.
Daisy wrote:
Wasn’t one of the signs of a FALSE prophet telling the King only what the King wanted to hear?
Daisy wrote:
Since there is NO way to know if YOU are one of the Truly Elect (i.e. God can make a Reprobate think he is Elect), I figure they are trying to PROVE to themselves that they ARE Truly Elect/Saved.
Just as a previous generation of Reformed types created the Protestant Work Ethic (and revered riches and success) as PROOF they were Elect.
“He has NO Book Larnin’ and HE IS LOUD!!!!!”
— old Internet Monk comment thread, “The highest complement you can give a KY Mountain preacher-man”
dainca wrote:
Remember Eastern Europe immediately after WW2?
“URRA STALINO!”
So when CJ took off for Louisville to church plant, I speculated that it was to avoid possible legal fall out. Soon after, the first lawsuits were filed along with the arrest and trial of Nate Morales.
I’m guessing that this latest move is a step towards dissolving SGM all together- as to reduce their legal liability in any further lawsuits and to remove them from their tarnished name brand.
Again, speculation-but maybe CJ is encouraging the individual churches to move towards the SBC-much like how he worked behind the scenes to convince all the SGM pastors to move towards Calvinistic theology.
Pobody’s nerfect, but I believe David Platt has had a good influence on this missionary organization.
@ Todd Wilhelm:
Big A’s and little a’s….yeah I remember that spiel.
Now I look back and think they were all a bunch of big A’s-but not quite in the Biblical sense 🙂
@ doubtful:
Interesting theory…
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
You are correct. Being part of the club allows for all sort of things. Like Mohler claiming that evolution contradicts the Bible, but he is ok with Keller.
But in spite of that, these are principled men, and if you have enough principal (ala Mahaney) they will make allowances for you. Especially if you make them more princiapalled.
@ Todd Wilhelm:
So the one thing that could be a spiritual check and balance on run-away anything in the church is moderated by the church.
Have they no sense of conflict of interest? Some of these guys could use some time out in the business world.
Churches AFFILIATE with the SBC.
The SBC ASSIMILATES churches.
Why? (Clue: the answer is found in the first subtitle of this post.)
“We will be discussing the SBC’s IMB debacle on Friday.”
The Big Leagues.
Deebs, this may be my favorite post of all-time. Why? Because there is no more corrupt group than the SBC, IMO of course. And there is no more brain-washed group of people on the planet than those who support the SBC, IMHO. Some of the best people I know faithfully give their hard-earned money to these crooks (I speak from experience on both sides of the pulpit here.) On an individual basis I don’t have the heart to tell them how it really is in the SBC.
Keep up the great work and I hope you have a backup server when your Friday post goes live :-).
Steve wrote:
He used to be really big into charismatic stuff, including speaking in tongues. Now, if his BFFs like Mohler or Dever told him he is no longer interested in tongues, he would no longer be interested in tongues.
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
The “Jezebel spirit” in operation; it can manifest itself in either gender. Control, manipulation, and intimidation are not fruit of the Holy Spirit.
Steve wrote:
Steve,
Maybe you need to write a post. Somebody needs to tell us! Sure, most people will think you are either crazy or a liar. But, at least they won’t be able to say that no one warned them when it
(Continued- iPad went berserk!)
People can’t say they hadn’t been warned when the SBC falls apart!
Nickname wrote:
I have been a member of at least two SBC churches that were not members of the local Baptist association, and have known of several other SBC churches over the years that were also not members of the local associations. Although churches that are members of the SBC are usually also members of the local association, I don’t see how they could be required to be, as there is no formal hierarchical structure in the SBC and thus no way to force membership in a local association. Plus the doctrine of autonomy is usually interpreted to mean that a church can chose to associate itself with any other group at the local, state or national levels, and vice versa.
My understanding is that all that is required for a church to be listed an SBC church in the database of SBC churches is for the church to give money to the SBC Cooperative Program, which can be done directly or via a local association or state convention. And when a church is listed, their ministers are also listed in the SBC minister database. I know of many churches that are listed as SBC churches that are also members of other organizations, including some National Baptist churches (a historically black denomination) who have chosen to affiliate themselves with the SBC just so their pastors can participate in the SBC’s annuity and insurance programs.
According to the SBC website FAQs (http://www.sbc.net/faqs.asp), being a part of the SBC requires the following:
In order for a church to be recognized as a cooperating church with the SBC, it must “be in friendly cooperation with the Convention and sympathetic with its purposes and work,” and be “a bona fide contributor to the Convention’s work during the fiscal year preceding” (Article III, Southern Baptist Convention Constitution).
The standard method of contribution is through the Cooperative Program, our unified method of supporting SBC mission causes, and the most common avenue for contribution is through the church’s respective Baptist state convention office. You can locate the convention office in your state by clicking here. The staff in that office will be happy to assist you.
The Southern Baptist Convention meets once each year in June. A church would be qualified to send messengers to the annual meeting during any June if it has taken formal action to cooperate (such as a vote of the church body) and has contributed to the work of the Convention during the preceding fiscal year (which ends each September 30).
Based on this, in theory, a church of any denomination, such as a Methodist or Presbyterian church, could be considered a member of the SBC and even send messengers to vote in the annual SBC meetings. Giving money is the key requirement.
I’ve gotten error messages several times over the last couple days when I tried to visit TWW. Is this happening to anyone else?
Will M wrote:
Because MONEY TALKS.
dee wrote:
Wow. Guess Dever didn’t check with the CREC first.
@ Abi Miah:
Yes. The site has been down a few times.
Too bad it is too late for another resurgence to throw those stinkers out. The SBC is a lost cause and the Neo Calvinist insurrection and a whole score of issues have nothing to do with conservative theology.
dee wrote:
Yep…….. Good call by the Deebs on this one…..been a long time in the works….very very dismayed at the direction Mohler et al are taking the SBC…. My pastor would roll over in his grave
Deb wrote:
Most SBC church plants are led by young, restless and reformed pastors. They give their churches cool names, without noting Southern Baptist affiliation. You may find reference to SBC tucked away somewhere on the church website, but it’s not painted on the sign out front or mentioned at church! Many of these church plants do not even have “Baptist” in their names … so it’s no wonder that the members don’t know they are affiliated with SBC. The young pastors have their hands out to collect SBC-NAMB church planting funds, but will not promote the denomination in their churches or educate their congregations on things like the Cooperative Program to benefit the greater work of Southern Baptists throughout the world! Strange days in SBC life as New Calvinism infiltrates the ranks … and the majority of folks in 45,000+ traditional SBC churches don’t have a clue what is happening!
Junkster: I erred in calling it ‘local’, when it actually reads ‘state’. Donations to the cooperative program go from SBC churches to their state convention, and then on to the larger SBC. When my church stopped ‘belonging’ to the state convention, the state convention and the SBC got their panties in a wad. Here’s from the explanation of the cooperative program from sbc.org:
“The Cooperative Program is Southern Baptists’ unified plan of giving through which cooperating Southern Baptist churches give a percentage of their undesignated receipts in support of their respective state convention and the Southern Baptist Convention missions and ministries.”
I doubt that the SBC would’ve turned down direct contributions from a ‘renegade’ church, but I do know that my church had to make some apologies for not paying their state dues — or whatever that money is formally called. I also know of churches who don’t really consider themselves Baptist per se, but use the cooperative program in order to support missionaries, which I think is pretty cool of them. Perhaps those don’t ‘belong’ to their state convention, I don’t know. But I got a pretty intense course in all things Southern Baptist by working for a Baptist church in a southern state for nearly a decade. Whenever someone told me something like “Baptists don’t believe in dancing”, I’d go to the website and publications to find what Baptist really do or don’t believe! By and large, they’re all over the map — as Dee pointed out earlier, the SBC will revoke membership if a church is way out of line, but generally, the local congregation rules the church.
I’m not sure how SGM feels about becoming congregational. My SB church decided one Friday afternoon to get rid of the pastor; Sunday after the main service, the vote was taken, and he was GONE. The by-laws were pretty clear that any member could call a congregational meeting at any time for any reason. That kind of thing would likely make the apostles (little a!) sweat!
Speaking of both speaking in tongues and finding out about someone’s hidden affiliations, I recently attended my church’s membership class and found out that the church and pastor are part of the Assemblies of God organization/congregation, which is a fact that was not disclosed previously. Further research into the AoG revealed that they’re Pentecostal and are big into speaking in tongues, and that Jim and Tammy Faye Baker were associated with them in the ’80’s. Red flags instantly went up. They also demand immersion baptism, which I’m going to resist (I was infant baptized, plus I have an aversion to having my head immersed in water, with panic attacks as a possible outcome.)
Some part of me wants to troll the congregation by “speaking in tongues” in a computer programming language and abruptly stop by yelling out “Stack Overflow Error!”
AnonInNC wrote:
Ugh, sometimes it’s hard to remember that second “k” in Jim and Tammy Faye’s last name…
I agree with Southern Baptist “Covert Ops”, and I’m one of the 600-800. 🙁
@ Mara:
Zla’od wrote:
I don’t know if the SBC would permit Klingon prayers as a *private prayer language* for missionaries. (I am, however, glad that they relented on their silly position because I know devout Christians who do have private prayer languages.)
Back to Klingon..here’s how it was developed for Star Trek:
https://stancarey.wordpress.com/2011/11/22/how-the-klingon-language-was-invented/
And the Lord’s Prayer in Klingon
http://nonharmingministries.com/lords-prayer/the-lords-prayer-in-klingon/
__
“The Charge Of The Calvinesta Brigade?”
huh?
If Cavinism is so ‘great’ why are they (the New Calvinists) consistently hiding and masking their subjectively ‘subversive’ activities with stealthy questionable deeds?
“Dirty ‘religious’ deeds and their done dirt cheap…” ?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=whQQpwwvSh4
hmmm…
Half a league, half a league,
Half a league onward,
Into the SBC
Rode Mohler and his men,
“Forward, the Calvinesta Brigade!”
Was there a man dismay’d?
Not tho’ the pastor knew
Someone had blunder’d:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to push John Calvin and die:
Into the SBC
Rode Mohler and his men.
When can their glory fade?
Oh the wild charge they have made!
All the world a wondering?
Honor the Calvinesta Brigade,
Noble Mohler and his men?
What?
Lend your support to 501(c)3 ‘religious’ men who harbor & protect child abusers?
R U Kidding?
(sadface)
“Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.” “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.” -Jesus
—
__
“Elected To Insanity?”
hmmm…
When you’re up to your new testament in calvinestas, it is hard to remember you primary objective was to preach the glad tidings (good news) of the gospel of Jesus, and bring kind folk to the saving knowledge of Christ Jesus the Lord.
(sadface)
“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths…” -Apostle Paul
These current church matters have arisen because some false so called shepherds have crept in and infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus, and to make us slaves.
You will know them by their fruit; please beware, ok?
ATB
Sopy
—
@ Max:
Indeed. We have a SBC mission’s plant in my town. Very strange name too, no mention of church or baptist, far less Southern Baptist. You have to really dig through the website to find out it’s an SBC church.
As I live in New England SBC would be very suspect. The deception of it being an independent congregation strikes me as sneaky, deceptive….
@ Junkster:
Thanks for this very helpful information, and welcome back friend!
@ Abi Miah:
DITTO!
@ Max:
You are spot on! One would think that these YRR leaders might casually mention the SBC connection at some point in their membership classes.
@ Mae:
New England is one of the new frontiers for the SBC. What you have shared doesn’t surprise me in the least.
Deb wrote:
I should have added it’s positions on salvation are , reformed. I suspect but can’t confirm it espouses complementary dogma .
Mae wrote:
Mae, I live in the “Bible Belt.” There are numerous SBC church plants in this area. I can’t think of one that clearly identifies itself with the denomination, even in a region where “Southern Baptist” is a name brand! The name monikers are SomethingBridge, SomethingValley, SomethingHills, SomethingLife, Grace This, Grace That, etc. I suppose it has something to do with attracting the 20s-40s who have an aversion to denominations … but, more likely, it has a lot to do with distancing themselves from the non-Calvinist theology of the traditional SBC church. This way, the young reformers can start fresh without the trappings of a denominational influence contrary to how they want to do church. However, as I noted before, they will gladly accept church planting funds from the pockets of those traditional Southern Baptists! The church name technique is just another form of deception and rebellion characteristic of the YRR crowd.
I attended a church outside of Atlanta from 1986 to 1989. It was an SBC church that did not have Baptist in the name. There is no requirement that a church have any particular name.
When I moved from Atlanta to I helped start a congregation in 1992. After meeting for Bible study for 6 months, we asked who wanted to start a church. Those who did decided on the name. Everyone had suggestions. The most odd was “Church of the Holy Dove”.
The congregation selected a name that did not have “Baptist” in it. Many were from other parts of the Country and had attended all types of churches. We decided to affiliate with the SBC because we liked the idea of pooling our money with other churches to do missions and theological education. We did not want to run our own missions agency.
In my view there is nothing wrong with this approach. People are more interested in knowing Jesus that walking around with a denominational brand on everything.
We don’t talk about being “Baptist.” We talk about being Christian, and following Christ.
We use whatever literature we chose. Some is from LifeWay. Some is not.
We don’t follow the Baptist Church calendar.
As far as I can tell, all of this is appropriate. Churches are free to do what they want.
Churches should not deceive people and hide things or lie about denominational affiliations.
But how prominent they chose to make denominational affiliation is a choice that each church can make, and I don’t have a problem with churches who pick whatever path they want to choose.
Mae wrote:
Male Supremacy and Pastor/Dictator ALWAYS goes together with Calvin-worship.
Little Calvins planting their own Little Genevas.
Mae wrote:
If reformed theology is its platform, you can be assured that subordination of women is its practice. You can confirm that by sneaking in some Sunday morning and observing the countenance of the young women who are being treated as second class citizens of the Kingdom. However, if the church has a cool band, that oppression might be masked by swaying to the beat of the drums. New Calvinism’s “complementary dogma” might very well prove to be the Achilles heel of the reformed movement – when women finally get sick of the oppression and raise up against it. They are not free to be who they are in Christ in reformed works … and it ain’t “homemaker” only!
@ Max:
I do know it has a swinging young band, and the founding church planter/pastor is…..27 and the assistant pastor, 25. Yikes! Imports from Oklahoma.
@ Anonymous:
It seems rather odd for so many church plants— that take SBC/NAMB money from long time SBC pew sitters —to be so disdainful of the SBC or even embarrassed by it. Why take their money, then? There is an entitlement mentality with these church planters that is disconcerting. I agree about autonomy until it becomes hypocritical. Of course I am former SBC and would not give them one dime, anyway. :o)
@ Anonymous:
So, what are your thoughts on CJ Mahaney and his church plant in Louisville joining the SBC?
Mae wrote:
Proof once again that the youth group is running the church … when the “elders” are in their 20s! Cool band with hoochie-coochie praise and worship singers in tight pants gyrating to the beat … modus operandi in many of these works. I bet the “lead pastor” sits on a stool on center stage under a spotlight when he preaches select passages from Romans and Ephesians (an ESV Bible, of course). Piper Points will be flying through cyberspace on his Twitter account. Gimmicks to attract the Millennials. That church will be “successful.” If only the 1st century church could witness this …
Anonymous wrote:
I find it interesting that New Calvinists refer to themselves as “Christ followers”, but never “believers.”
Anonymous wrote:
That’s good … in SBC, it is called the “Cooperative Program.” However, as a 60+ year Southern Baptist, I am seeing “mission” and “theology” redefined by church planters from the SBC defaults I have known for over 6 decades.
AnonInNC wrote:
The Assemblies of God defrocked Jim Bakker and former PTL president Richard Dortch following the PTL Club scandal. Dortch’s credentials were eventually restored after he served a prison sentence and demonstrated repentance. To the best of my knowledge Jim Bakker’s credentials have never been restored. I’m open to correction if anyone has evidence to the contrary.
@ Mae:
May, I live in New England, too– do you mind sharing the name of the church?
Junkster wrote:
Maybe I should suggest this to my UU church as well other UU congregations.
Then we could, uh, “correct” the voting trends & other perceived misbehavior in the SBC!
Lydia:
The SBC has rules about what is required to receive support for a new church start. If the SBC wants to start requiring that “Baptist” be in the name, it can do so, though to date, it has not. So, it’s fine by me if the new church start doesn’t want to use “Baptist” in the name.
However, your overall sense of things is a good one. The new church plant should not rag on Baptists or the SBC. That, indeed, would be very hypocritical.
I have seen making fun of Baptists and the SBC for gain go on. In our area it is mainly done by those nondenominational churches that are not Baptist. It is even done quite a bit by the largest church in town that has “Baptist” in its name.
I forget who said this above, but denominationalism has been on the wane for 50 years. When many of the major denominations lost groups or split over Modernism in the 20th century, with the ascendancy of crusade evangelism in the post war years (i.e. Billy Graham), and the development of the parachurch (i.e. Youth for Christ, Navigators, Campus Crusade etc.) the importance of denominationalism and local church membership is really down. Graham, himself, is the archetype of this. He always called people to come to faith in Christ. Though a Baptist, he never talked about his Baptist credentials, and he did not encourage people to attend Baptist churches if they made professions of faith at his crusades.
Not many people, as a percentage, value being in a denomination very highly.
Also, the Baptist Church does not have as large a presence in some areas of the country as it does in the South.
And in the South, due to the great population shift that continues to occur with people moving here from all over who do not have any affiliation with Baptist churches, starting another church that looks and feels like a traditional Baptist church is not attractive to many people who want to start churches.
This affects other denominations, as well. When Tim Keller started a church in NYC, it did not put the word “Presbyterian” in it, though it is a PCA church. The PCA helped fund that, but they did not require that “Presbyterian” be in the name, and I believe that is acceptable.
So, for all of these reasons, and others, it is understandable to me why starting churches whose primary emphasis is denominational affiliation is not very popular.
I actually believe that we are in for a new wave of church plants in the near future that do not look like the ones we are starting today.
The population growth in the U.S. today is being fueled in large part by immigration. I do not believe that most of the churches started to day by young white males are really going to attract the new immigrant population. Hispanics, those from the Middle East, and those from South Asia, are not going to be drawn in some instances by the same thing that might draw the current crop of attendees at these new churches.
Of course, God draws people. But we have a responsibility, I believe, to try and communicate effectively and in a way that is attractive to people. (That’s why we translated the Bible into English and stopped using Latin. God still reached people when Latin was being used, but how much better it is to try and communicate effectively).
I have no idea what might look attractive, in cultural terms, to some new arrival from the Middle East. But I would be very interested to hear from people who work with them and find out their thoughts. If there are some things that we could do that would make our churches more attractive and more accessible to new arrivals, we should find out what they are and do them. There is no tradition, name, cultural expression etc. that should not be subject to analysis and discarding if it helps us reach others.
Lydia:
You also asked what I thought of Mahaney and his church joining the SBC.
I am depressed about it, frankly. I liked the fact that SGM was its own big ball of mess.
Fortunaely, Mahaney can’t join the SBC. Individuals cannot join.
Churches can qualify to send messengers to the annual SBC meeting and those churches’ members can serve as trustees of SBC institutions if the church is “in friendly cooperation” with the Convention. That means giving money.
On the one hand, I am glad for new churches to come into the SBC, so long as those churches agree to the Baptist Faith & Message, and they work together with other churches, and don’t try to control or twist things.
I remember when Jerry Falwell and Thomas Road Baptist Church became SBC. Everyone was concerned. Was the SBC going to look more like the Independent Baptist World?
Well, as it turned out, Falwell and Thomas Road have not changed the SBC a bit. I do not see a lot of former Independent Baptists controlling the convention or the SBC.
I am hoping that Sovereign Grace will fully embrace the Baptist Faith & Message, drop the “Apostle” stuff etc. I don’t know where they are on the gifts. I am not Charismatic, and the SBC is not a Charismatic denomination.
I think that the IMB did the right thing dropping the requirement about the so-called “private prayer language”, but I saw some wisdom behind that. I have been concerned for some time that some groups (including Charismatics) would see the benefit of cooperative funding of missions and education, and that they would try to glom onto that. Having a PPL rule prevented that from happening.
However, the SBC has had great people on that side of things – Peter Lord, Wallace Henley, and others. But they are very mildly Charismatic. I am fine with that. They were great pastors and SBC leaders.
Mahaney, personally, is in my opinion, an embarrassment, and will be until he gives a full recounting, explanation and repentance for all that went on in Sovereign Grace Churches.
I don’t want to see him speaking at meetings. I did not listen to MacDonald at the SBC meeting. I don’t want to see SGM or its methods or ethos become large in the SBC.
The problem is – it’s impossible to keep them out if they do with the SBC Constitution and Bylaws say.
If I could pick and chose who was in, I would not pick these guys.
The SBC is a big tent. We have to focus on why we are together – missions and theological education etc. and emphasize that.
That’s the best answer I can give.
@ Anonymous:
But they voted on being able to voluntarily change the name to “Great Commission” Baptists. Even Mohler tweeted that from now on SBTS would go with that. But I have seen no evidence of it. So was the problem “Southern” or “Baptist” or both? When this was being debated, it seemed the general consensus was that “Southern” was the issue. But in reality, Baptist was, too.
Yes, denominationalism is on the wane which also makes it very hard for any organized group to ask for money to be sent to “national” headquarters. Groups, even voluntary ones, organize themselves around some identifying moniker.
@ Anonymous:
CJ Mahaney and James McDonald brought their oligarchical thinking and churches to the SBC with open arms from Mohler and company. Considering the authoritarian bent of the YRR/Neo Cal movement within the SBC, I think the “big tent” is narrowing in the way of authoritarianism.
The SBC might as well put out a sign that says, “We Welcome Charlatans”.
Anonymous wrote:
The irony of this is that in my city, the older established SBC churches in the neighborhoods that have become full of immigrants have simply evolved to minister to that population. Most of them are non Calvinist and not part of the SBC inner circles with very little interaction with SBTS. In fact, a few I am very in tune with try to avoid SBTS students who have caused horrible havoc in last 10 years. Can you imagine telling people who barely speak the language and are navigating a new culture and are there to learn English, get baby formula and other basic needs……that the “pastor does not know the true Gospel”? It boggles the mind.
From my post:
“C.J., you are free to give money to the Southern Baptist Convention and The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary with no strings attached. You are not free to buy a membership and pretend to be a Southern Baptist church and minister so the Pastors College receives special treatment.
“It also lacks all integrity to be listed on the SBC website as a Baptist church and a Baptist minister. Imagine the poor Baptist family that visits your church fully expecting you are accountable to the congregation and subservient to the direction of the congregation. They will be stunned by your hypocrisy.
“C.J., you can’t be a committed member of two different denominations with diametrically opposed understandings of church government and church autonomy. That’s like Mark Dever joining the Presbyterian Church of America while remaining a Southern Baptist. It can’t be done. He is not a Presbyterian. You are not a Baptist. Stop claiming to be one unless you are willing to leave Sovereign Grace Churches and embrace congregationalism like a true Baptist!”
Read more at the link below and thanks to Dee and Deb for their fine work.
http://abrentdetwiler.squarespace.com/brentdetwilercom/cj-mahaney-becomes-a-southern-baptist-minister.html
Patty in Massachusetts wrote:
Would prefer not to share. ( It’s in CT. ) I am a native of Massachusetts, right outside of Boston….Arlington.
Max wrote:
Yes, very similar approach. When they first blew into town ( no mention of being reformed or SB ) they advertised on our local radio by saying: All were welcome but style of service catered to the younger generation. ( no old fuddy duds please.)
There seems to be confusion about how a church can become a part of the SBC. Here it is from the SBC: http://www.sbc.net/faqs.asp . Notice the prominence of the word “contribute.” SBC churches are not held together by polity or doctrine. Larger SBC churches are anything but congregational. SBC doctrine is all over the map: charismatic, Calvinist, Wesleyan, etc.
However, SBC churches ARE held together by a color. GREEN.
@ Anonymous:
What annoyed me about this church plant, is that it is funded by SBC. Comes off to me as hiding their identity as to hood wink the unchurched into thinking they are not attending g a denominational church.
Of course every church is free to call themselves whatever they wish. I personally want to know, upfront, what denominational ties the Church I am attending, has.
@ Mae:
Absolutely concur. It is deceptive to conceal denominational affiliations.
Mae wrote:
Sorry Mae. Not happening in a mid to larger size SBC church. Try to get a line by line explanation of the budget. On second thought don’t. Unless you’re ready to find another church. You’re not going to get this upfront, backwards, or sideways. I’ve seen good people try. And fail.
Deb wrote:
Maybe Deb. But it would be sure death to REVEAL. Besides, the SBC has perfected “concealing” and “deception ” to an art form.
Lydia:
That is great that the older SBC churches in your city are adapting in that way.
The immigrants in our city are locating in one area in particular, though the area stretches out for some miles.
Some churches have sold their properties. Others are hanging on.
The churches in the area where I live, which was a middle class area when I grew up, but is now more affluent, seem to be struggling, regardless of what SBC stripe they are – moderate, traditional. The same is true for the old First Baptist Downtown. These areas are really expensive to live in, and whereas immigrants would have populated the areas 20 years ago, now they are being gentrified.
@ Lydia:
Yes Lydia there are ” a few.” The SBC has done many great things in the past. Today they do a few great things. The great people in the SBC today are anonymous. Great and godly people you will never hear about. As it should be.
In the SBC the good is really good. And the bad is really bad.
I just saw that the link I posted above was already in this thread. Sorry about that.
Mae:
I totally get what you are saying. People should not be lied to or hoodwinked.
But sometimes a denominational moniker connotes to some people things that are not really part of the denomination.
For example, in many parts of the country if you say “Baptist” or “Church of Christ” there is a perception that abstinence from alcohol is part of the doctrine or practice of that church. That may be true by history, but not by current practice. Many people in our are believe that Baptists are required to be abstinent.
This is just one example, however.
If I were starting a church in an area and I thought that a denominational name connoted something that was not true about my church to the people in that area, I would probably use a different name.
But hoodwinking people into something is never a good thing, so I totally get where you are coming from.
Steve wrote:
“When SBC’s Good they are Very Very Good,
But when they are bad they are Calvin”?
@ dee:
Confused. MacArthur and CJ are both speaking at T4G???
Steve wrote:
Just like the old USSR.
Steve:
Any member or regular attended at our church will get a line for line explanation from our church regarding the budget. Books are TOTALLY open to those people.
But we are the anomaly.
That is true in lots of non-profits by the way. Try to get a line for line from United Way, Planned Parenthood, Sierra Club etc. There is a lot of hiding going on.
Lydia wrote:
Or “Fuehrerprinzip Taught Here”.
@ Brent Detwiler:
Great post Brent! As you contend in your post, Mahaney does not believe in congregationalism. When he spoke at the 2009 9Marks Conference (called “God Exposed”) at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, he delivered a message on the topic “Expository Faithfulness”. In his introductory remarks, he explained that he is an “8 Marks guy”.
http://multimedia.sebts.edu/?p=248
Here is how Mahaney begins his talk:
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
@ Anonymous:
How many members?
Brent Detweiler:
Thank you for the comment and the link to your blog. This is the kind of thing that I would never know about if it were not from people like you. I am not an expert on SGM churches and did not even know of the documents to which you linked.
The Baptist Faith and Message requires democratic processes with regard to the local church. There is no prescription for those processes, so congregational participation may vary, depending on the polity of the church. There are elder led and ruled churches in the SBC.
But on the matter of autonomy, there is no variance. A church is either autonomous or not. The Baptist world has no mechanism for governing or disciplining a church. Many people fail to understand this, and want the Convention to do this or that about a particular issue. The convention is a just a group of churches pooling their monies for missions.
I had just assumed that the church in Louisville had approved of its church giving money to the SBC.
You mean to say that because Manhaney directed the writing of a few checks, that the church is now in the SBC?
I take it that you think that Mahaney is going to sever ties with SGM and take this one church into the SBC? If so, that doesn’t appear to be helping the SGM pastor’s college.
I am confused on the end game here. If Mahaney did this to protect the Pastor’s College perks, but then his church leaves SGM, how does that protect the Pastor’s College?
You have done a good job of showing how Mahaney is trying to be SBC and SGM and that cannot be done. I am with you on that.
But if Mahaney is going to become full SBC, he will have to leave SGM, and that won’t help the Pastor’s College at all.
Is this an interim step?
Can you clear this up?
Steve:
We have between 600 and 700 members. 800 to 900 attending.
Steve wrote:
Sickening, isn’t it? Parishioners fill the coffers and are expected to ” trust ” the leadership as to where and to whom the filthy lucre is deposited with.
We left a church that was taken over by YRR ( non baptist ). One of the many ugly changes made by them was to deny access , by the members, to any accountability of the financial tranactions/records.
We now attend an American Baptist Church, all financial records are transparent. Polity is congregational, so budgets are passed by membership at semi annual budget meetings.
@ Anonymous:
Can you get a breakdown of salaries? If yes I would say your church is anomalous for sure.
@ Anonymous:
I don't think anyone (except possibly Mohler and Dever) truly knows what Mahaney is up to. Maybe he is positioning his church to bail out of what is now known as "Sovereign Grace Churches" should that ever become necessary.
Steve:
Yes.
Salary breakdowns are all available and known.
And we have a method for setting salaries. There is a church administrators group that puts out an annual salary survey based on position, denomination, size of church, size of budget, education of pastor and years of service, and region of the U.S. We try to fall within a range of that survey.
The first Baptist church that I attended when I was 16 also had the salaries of all church staff available.
We have rules on compensation outside of the church. The pastor has to report speaking, wedding etc. honoraria. We haven’t adopted a rule yet about book or musical composition income, but will do so. If you write a book or song on church time, the church should get some of that income, in my view.
Deb:
I am so glad that Detwiler posted that here. That is such a great service to the people of both the SGM and the SBC.
I can see how some churches can have dual affiliations. But not if the doctrine is so different. That makes no sense.
Mae:
Good for you!
Don’t attend any church or give to any non-profit where you can’t see where every penny went!!
A non-profit that won’t do that may not be stealing money, but they don’t have the right attitude to start with, and that is what will get them in trouble.
Anonymous wrote:
In my former SBC church before the YRR invasion, members were involved in developing each yearly budget– then all would vote. There were quarterly meetings to make adjustment open to all where members voted on every single change. Staff could only make suggestions. That was also how it was in the SBC churches I grew up in.
Now most of them are elder led (rule) and while it is nice of you to allow the donors to see how their money is spent, I find it much more wise for all who want– to be involved in the process. I cannot imagine what church goers are thinking today. Perhaps they aren’t. I am very sad that so many are checking their brains at the door. But it seems to be how our entire society is evolving in allowing others to make what should be their decisions, for them. In this respect and many others, it is hard to see how those in the Body can mature.
Anonymous wrote:
Why would that be the goal at all? What young man in his right mind would want to attend a non accredited Pastors college when he can receive the SBC SBTS tuition discount as an SBC student and earn actual credits? Perhaps Mahaney and Mohler might just believe that Mahaney can draw SGM young men to Louisville. It is hard to give up illusions of your granduer.
We know that SBTS (Mohler) had an agreement with the NON ACCREDITED SGM Pastors College to award automatic credits to transfer students. How they wangled this through SACS, I will never know. Perhaps they were hoping it would not show up in an audit? Personally, I think they should be on probation for even entertaining that agreement. Any student who actually earned the credits the hard old fashioned way should be furious and and find dubious the integrity of Mohler and that institution.
However, it became public and enough people yelled bloody on it that AFAIK, it was revoked. But was it? If we look at all the perks, jobs, internships SGM folks have been given at SBTS …just the ones we know about through the grapevine…we might be shocked.
Whatever hold uneducated and giggly Mahaney has over MOhler….it is interesting.
@ Steve:
Steve, the irony is that it seems to mainly be the older folks. They understand the problem of top down authoritarianism and are not as gullible as youth are to the lure of the gurus. Perhaps that is why the IMB wants the 50 years+ out?
Of course, the older folks paid off the church mortgage and the YRR come in stealthily and take over. They get a debt free church and those that paid for it end up leaving.
Anonymous wrote:
Not true. State conventions and local associations have disaffilated SBC churches for A) A woman pastor and, B) Gay members.
There is no mechanism for the President to do this except for serious pressure on the states and strong arming yes men into state convention position. That was done in Ky. Total Mohler loyalist.
@ Lydia:
Oh, I meant to add, this has never been done over protecting pedophiles. So CJ’s SG church in KY seems to be safe from such a move by the MOhler loyalist at the KBC.
@ Mae:Understand. Just glad to know it’s not in Mass. I live north of Boston.
This discussion has suddenly brought to mind the scenario when Mahaney was the SBTS chapel speaker some time ago. He handed over a check to his BFF Al Mohler and said something like: “Boys and girls, that’s the way you get invited back.”
NO KIDDING!!!
Mae wrote:
And that’s how Lead Pastor/Head Apostle can afford Furtick Mansions and private jets.
Anonymous wrote:
That hasn’t been the case with churches holding dual affiliation with SBC and Acts29 (the other reformed cousin in SBC). I guess it depends on how you characterize these organizations … are SGM and Acts29 “networks” or “denominations”?
Wasn’t there talk of CJ Mahaney getting sued? Is this an attempt to shuffle his church wealth in a tax free way over to a larger organization that couldn’t be responsible? Something smells fishy in the State of Denmark, methinks.
Anonymous wrote:
That reminds me, you asked this question quite some time ago and I don’t know if you saw my post. Has your church contacted an Intellectual Property attorney? The songs and books that church staff create are their own IP under law.
__
“Nothing Up My Sleeve?”
hmmm…
Brent,
hey,
What you simply fail to mention is that, although possibly given a certain amount of lip-service, congregationalism with the New Calvinist assuming complete control of the SBC, congregationalism will be thrown out the window with the assumption of the New Calvinist position already evidenced in strictly New Calvinist 501(c)3 religious organizations.
(sadface)
Sopy
—
__
“Cover-up, Clean-up, N’ Sanitize?”
hmmm…
“I have never conspired to protect a child predator, and I also deny all the claims made against me in the civil suit.”
C.J. Mahaney
Connecting da dotz?
huh?
“Clearly there is a C.J. Mahaney image “clean-up operation” in progress.” -Sopwith
“We have stood beside our friend, C. J. Mahaney, and we can speak to his personal integrity,” -Al Mohler, president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary; Ligon Duncan, pastor of First Presbyterian Church of Jackson, Miss.; and Mark Dever, pastor of Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, D.C.
What?
“Well if you look at the contrast between what C.J. Mahaney and the various church leaders have stated about the flat denials and then you look at the sworn, under-oath testimony that came out in the Morales trial you see a clear discrepancy.”
– Susan Burke, lawyer for the plaintiffs in the class action lawsuit against C.J. Mahaney and SGM. Source – The Janet Mefferd Show.
Skreeeeeeeeeeetch !
“The New Calvinists have clearly worked very hard to make parishioners forget that (501(c)3 New Calvinist pastoral character, conduct, and consequences are interconnected.” -Sopwith
Krash !
These actions ‘apparently’ includes (but not limited to) New Calvinist 501(c)3 religious individuals, and organizations as noted above, such as:
Mark Dever
Albert Mohler
T4G
TGC
Please follow the eye witness testimony trail of abuse victims through some thirty plus years of intrigue, coverups and scandals, and court cases, as bloggers Kris & Guy, Dee & Deb and others [1] , painstakingly open the curtains that have for too long hidden the facts…behind the abuse of victims of the questionable 501(c)3 religious non-profit called by various names over the years: POD/PDI/SGM/SGC, and their over-up.
…all those bringing evidence and personal testimony to ‘light’ in these cases of child sexual abuse and cover-ups, are ticks and leeches, as one New Calvinist J.D. Hall clearly states?
I think not.
…”This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. “For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. “But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” -Jesus
(sadface)
Sopy
__
[1]
sgmsurvivors.com
warthburgwatch.com
http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/
brentdetwiler.com
https://thouarttheman.org/2014/06/07/lawyer-susan-burke-comments-on-mahaneys-statement-of-innocence/
—
Velour:
Yes we have talked to lawyers.
As a condition of employment, a person can negotiate to give proceeds from the sale of their work. That’s essentially what record companies do when they have a deal with an artist. They get a percentage of royalties.
And almost every scientific teaching university that I know of has a requirement that the university gets the patents on anything invented by their employees while they are employed by the university.
Lydia:
Yes, the SBC, a state convention or a local association can remove voting privileges.
But I was responding to Mr. Detwiler’s comments about the polity of SGM churches. The individual churches in SGM are not autonomous. In the Baptist world, they are.
This showed up last Wednesday over at Naked Pastor:
http://i2.wp.com/www.nakedpastor.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/ordained-to-abuse.jpg
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I cannot go another moment without saying, that for the last little time, every time I read the word “apostle” next to Mahaney’s name, my brain translates it to “apostate”.
Usually, I would chalk this up to my Irish sense of humor, but it happens all the time. Every, Single. Time.
(Maybe I need to stop trying to change it back, do you all think?).
Mae wrote:
Mae, it’s a crying shame that the young, restless and reformed are so focused on indoctrination of their generation. A healthy church has a mixture of multi-generations. We need the energy of youth coupled with the wisdom of age … young guys to speed things up a bit, but old guys to slow it down when necessary. It’s as if these church plants of 20s-40s are just waiting for the old folks to die off, so that the reformation can really take effect. In one generation, it will, unless the proliferation of New Calvinist belief and practice is brought into balance (this from my SBC perspective).
Good investigative work. Keep it up but I think you will find that the rats in the woodwork, robbing the coffers are infiltrating a number of denominations and church groups beyond Calvanism/or non.
I remember the true story of the Bagwan Rahnessis in California moved into a wealthy expensive church that had mostly old people. They became voting members and took over the church. Then they moved to Oregon, took over a church and a town there.
Well I see the church at large being infiltrated and having their coffers robbed by crooks and false teachers with Christians trying to figure out what’s going on and trying to show Christian love and patience when they are seriously in need of discernment
BC wrote:
Good point. For example, Mahaney has been exposed. There’s been enough collective light shone upon the guy to see what we’re looking at is, in biblical terms, a false brethren. By now there should be no doubt, no shilly-shallying, no need to wait for any evidence to the contrary. Mahaney will not behave now, or in the future, like an authentic believer because he simply isn’t one. By this time anyone who believes differently is ignoring the facts and has had the wool pulled over their eyes.
I know it’s frustrating for those who have been victimized by these charlatans. And Mahaney did a good job for a long time masking his true identity, supported by a bunch of yes-men.
But look at him, and think about it. We don’t need a court to convict him, although that would help. But he’s not a free man. He hasn’t repented, not because he’s unwilling, but because he’s unable to. He’s carrying on, business as usual, because his business has always been about constructing a form of religion that he could sell by passing himself off as a true proponent. But he’s obviously blind. And everyone that continues to follow him, and put their faith in him, are blind, too. This isn’t just my opinion. The facts bear this out, as does the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Accepting this is a hard truth but it’s necessary in order to reach closure. At some point, we need to come to the conclusion and settle the issue. Mahaney is not in the Kingdom. He simply is not. And all of his activities, regardless of what labels he or others try and attach to it, are simply not contributing the work Kingdom. In fact, he’s a damaging individual and his mouth needs to be stopped.
What people should be protesting at the next T4G conference (since protestation & reformation is their theme) is the existence of T4G and their heretical representations of “the Gospel” and what they believe about “togetherness”.
BC wrote:
Amen! The greatest need in the American church today is to pray for discernment! The enemy comes to kill, steal, and destroy. Churches and denominations are being killed out, stolen from, and lives destroyed … while the pew has sat idly by trusting its leaders, without testing the spirits to discern if they be from God. Unless prayer prevail, they are easy pickins’ for aberrant movements and messengers … prayerless = powerless.
Max wrote:
“Give me your children and I will make them mine. You will pass away, but they will remain Mine.”
— A.Hitler, cult leader
BC wrote:
Antelope, Oregon, AKA “the historic Oregon ghost town of Rajneeshpuram”.
More like they TRIED to take over the town; including recruiting in neighboring states, busing them to Rajneeshpuram and registering them to vote; then deliberately spreading salmonella culture onto salad bars frequented by non-Rajneeshees a couple days before the election. That act of bio-terrorism (by legal definition) was where they started going downhill. FBI got involved, and The Bhagwan ended up fleeing back to India where he died of AIDS, leaving his followers in Antelope to face the Feds alone.
I know of the recruiting down into Northern Calfiornia from someone who lived in Redding (Shasta County) while this was going on. It was like some sort of church bus ministry, vacuuming homeless and ex-hippies off the streets of Shasta County (and presumably other North Cal counties — Arcata & Eureka in Humboldt County have large homeless and ex-hippie drifter populations).
zooey111 wrote:
I keep remembering his original (self-bestowed) title:
“Head Apostle” of “People of Destiny, International”.
Ego Much?
Original Mitch wrote:
The Dones in the SBC will only increase as the older ones like us recognize that what is now done in the SBC is very unbaptist. The younger serious Christians will look at the cronyism and nepotism and money-grubbing and sinecure protection and realize that they can remove the cost of the middle men who are growing fat and rich. I believe that some creative demolition is happening so that Christians who are not about the institutional church will find a more organic way of one-anothering and growing up into maturity in Christ rather than staying babes who feed from the bottles dispensed every Sunday morning by a paid professional.
Chris wrote:
Respectfully, I disagree. Platt is a crony who received a reward for his loyalty. He is beloved by the younger crowd, and the SBC needs a purpose hook to draw the Millennials and keep them. I am familiar with Platt and Brook Hills which strangely did not feel the need to direct funds to the Cooperative Program until Platt became a beneficiary of it.
Gram3 wrote:
Like the youth pastor with soul patch and tats trying to act just like a 14-year-old Skatepunk?
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I was thinking about the virginal and passionate idealism of youth who desire to be part of something Big which will Save the World (or, if they are secular, Save the Planet.) Such idealism is easily exploited by the powerful to recruit the footsoldiers for the movement which sustains the power of the powerful. In this case, IMO, the SBC has been quietly losing members for a very long time for a variety of reasons, and that is unlikely to reverse unless something drastically changes.
The problem for the Powerful going forward is that information distribution is essentially cost-free, and anyone can disseminate and find information without gatekeepers who frame the narrative. It is something like the Vulgate, Tyndale, and the Gutenberg press, IMO. Millennials are accustomed to a highly personalized “experience.” That does not work well for the entrenched powers who must maintain at least some semblance of conformity with their Program. Platt very conveniently packages these two things together. He brings the Big Idea of being young and Radical and On Mission To Reach The Nations *along with* fierce loyalty to the Power Brokers. There is nothing radical about currying favor with the powerful, however, and his loyalty to the Big Guys paid off. They overlooked or made excuses for Brook Hills’ meager contributions to the CP.
Plus Platt does a spot-on imitation of Mahaney. Watch him sometime. Same cadence, same “passion” with the same gestures.
Gram3 wrote:
“Look at you, Eric. Overseeing Resettlement programs — changing the face of Europe!”
— “Holocaust” (Seventies TV miniseries), to a Hauptsturmfuehrer-SS just outside Babi Yar
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Frighteningly true, but very few have any memory of the lessons learned from that era. Postwar people did a bit of research to try to understand what caused “good” people to blindly follow evil authority figures, but that is lost on young people who continue to blindly follow the Vision of the Big Man. And they will not listen to older people who have seen that end in train wreck after train wreck.
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original mitch wrote:
You can always join The Episcopal Church. I bet you’d be a wonderful pastor here. 🙂