https://baptistnews.com/2016/04/13/pastor-in-alleged-sex-abuse-cover-up-returns-to-preaching-conference-roster/

Baptist News Global article covers similar info to the above post.

Okay so I just watched part of C.J. preach and I think he’s going downhill. Either he is deteriorating or he feels the pressure of him being protested. Maybe he should look into some “Gospel Centered Xanex?”

Todd Wilhlem wrote:

Janet Mefferd tweeted, in response to the pharisees Mohler, Dever, and Duncan:

“The willful deafness of his gospel buddies to this outcry shows it’s not just Mahaney who should get off the stage.”

T4G, what a sham.

For what it’s worth, I believe this core issue of levels of co-responsibility will increasingly come up when there are questions about “systemic abuse,” which is what began with SGM — but now clearly seems to have dug its tentacles into T4G [as witnessed by the hero’s welcome given to C.J. Mahaney], and into the Presbyterian Church in America denomination and Southern Baptist Convention [as illustrated in Bobby Griffith’s blog post].

Systemic abuse happens when it’s not simply about the actions of an individual or two or a few — but where organizational or network infrastructures are in place. Where there are those who protect and promote the people who are directly responsible for the abuse of power/authority. Where there are others who deflect and demote anyone who says, does, or identifies contrary to the accepted status. Where there are pawns — many ignorant of what’s really going on — who keep the system resourced.

And so, the issue of responsibility in systemic abuse shifts from the alleged perpetrator or apex of the pyramid of power in the situation, to a whole crew.

* Who is most culpable and should bear the highest amount of accountability?

* Who is lower down on the pyramid, but still acts to keep the organization going, and so has a greater or lesser degree of complicity? (We get our English words complicit and accomplice from the same root.)

* Who is mostly being milked for their money, presence [seat count], and volunteer time, and is more along the lines of an “accessory” rather than an activist or advocate, in terms of responsibility/accountability for the system?

I think the tide turned on the public’s interest in probing the question of co-responsibility with the Penn State scandal. Think about how many different people, organizations, institutions, and media outlets were involved in that situation! I also believe this trend has been amplified to where the movie Spotlight could hold audiences’ attention for over two hours as they witness how long it takes the Boston Globe’s Spotlight team to investigate such a convoluted set of protective interconnections between church, police, judiciaries, media, philanthropic organizations, etc. (And according to reports I read, it took their team’s combined efforts for nearly a year, at an estimated cost of $1 million for their salaries plus legal matters and other costs.)

At the T4G conference, the protectors were not silent – nor were the protesters. Both went public with their positions. Sadly, those who stood with Mr. Mahaney lost a prime opportunity for starting to make some things right toward those allegedly harmed by the SGM system. So, I would second what Ms. Mefferd suggests, that the involvement by those on the T4G stage is incompatible with being considered public role models of pursuing Christlikeness. It is past time for Together for the Gospel — and other Protestant churches, ministries, denominations, seminaries, and networks — to wrestle with the essential issues of accountability behind what the Dutch philosopher-theologian Erasmus said 500 years ago: “He who allows oppression shares the crime.”

Remnant wrote:

In the exalted world of their own minds, the chosen few “senior pastors” of the moment, with their “sanctified testosterone” bask in the roaring accolades of the wannabes…

HUMBLY, of course.

I am embarrassed for Mohler–his reference to the Internet was a passive-aggressive shot at those who have raised the accountability issues for leadership, both with Mahaney, and with T4G. I am embarrassed for CJ–the lust for attention and praise that would overrule the boundaries of decency are such a red flag for him personally.

But, I am most embarrassed for those who chanted ‘we love CJ’ as an act of violence toward the protesters, embarrassed for those who cheered and applauded these men, this event. We mock virtue and wonder why there are thieves among us, (a rough paraphrase of a CS Lewis quote).

Dont the Presbyterians have a hierarchical process for pastor discipline? I wonder why Duncan and DeYoung don’t fear such a thing.

When a Presbyterian group tried to use that process with Sproul SR, they found out his supposed Presbyterian Church was really independent and he was untouchable.

Lydia wrote:

DI wonder why Duncan and DeYoung don’t fear such a thing.

When a Presbyterian group tried to use that process with Sproul SR, they found out his supposed Presbyterian Church was really independent and he was untouchable.

Lydia wrote:

Dont the Presbyterians have a hierarchical process for pastor discipline? I wonder why Duncan and DeYoung don’t fear such a thing.

I’d guess that they are too high up and too valuable to the organization to be touched. If they committed pedophilia themselves, that might do the trick, but sharing the stage with an accused Co-conspirator? Besides, if it did happen they would probably decamp (pun intended) to some smaller Presbyterian hardline denomination and carry on carrying on.

@ Cousin of Eutychus:
Mohler is made of Teflon

“I told C.J. that in getting ready to introduce him I decided I would Google to see if there was anything on the Internet about him.” – Al Mohler

I was watching it on the livestream, and I was stunned that he would reference the scandal at all, let alone as a throwaway joke.

Edward wrote:

“I told C.J. that in getting ready to introduce him I decided I would Google to see if there was anything on the Internet about him.” – Al Mohler

That Mohler would say this is beyond comprehension. The man has no heart . . .

Bridget wrote:

The man has no heart . . .

So many of them are like that.

I repeat HARDENED criminals are repulsed by child molesters. WTH is wrong with these people, from the top down, who claim to be Christians and can’t seem to get that this is evil???

Edward wrote:

“I told C.J. that in getting ready to introduce him I decided I would Google to see if there was anything on the Internet about him.” – Al Mohler

And 10,000 New Calvinists roared in laughter, as Jesus wept.

Bridget wrote:

That Mohler would say this is beyond comprehension. The man has no heart . .

This is what happens when someone feels 40 feet tall and bulletproof. I believe that both Mohler and Mahaney are experiencing that now, and given the teflon nature of Mahaney’s ‘revival’, it is understandable. However, history has proven time and time again that when people think they are the most secure is when they are, in reality, about to fall.

Galatians 6:7 – Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap.

Todd Wilhelm wrote:

You wouldn’t believe some of the tweets I’ve seen from the “men” in attendance. They remind me of a pack of teenage girls at a Beatles concert. This movement is very sick.

Perfect analogy! Although I was thinking Justin Beiber.

@ molly245:
Yes, we need to know roots so we stop repeating history. The only difference I would point out is how much social media/internet played a part in their reach for national celebrity within Christendom.

How did Mohler,just an SBC entity employee, come to have so much power and influence? A legend was built around him early that has no root in fact checking. “He was a brilliant scholar”, etc. Some of the things people were told were ridiculous…as in how many books he read a week, etc. It was as if he had image crafters from the time he was in his 20’s, before social media. Maybe to explain being given such a big job at age 33 before such things were the norm?

McArthur just preached from Revelation that churches need to repent. For once, I agree with Johnny Mac. Question is, repent from what?

Todd Wilhelm wrote:

You wouldn’t believe some of the tweets I’ve seen from the “men” in attendance. They remind me of a pack of teenage girls at a Beatles concert.

Is that what a cork bobbing in a sea of testosterone looks like?

“Authority used rightly provides a special reflection of God’s character. The abuse of authority specially distorts it.”

–Mark Dever/Johnathan Leeman, Don’t Be A 9Marxist

NJ wrote:

“Authority used rightly provides a special reflection of God’s character. The abuse of authority specially distorts it.”

–Mark Dever/Johnathan Leeman, Don’t Be A 9Marxist

I am so disgusted with Mark Dever here. Power attracts abusers. The more power you take for yourself, or your unvetted husbands and pastors, the more abuse you will have. The way to get less abuse is to fix the power dynamics, so the abused have a way to get out. Everything about the 9marx and complementarian systems set up a power dynamic that leaves people vulnerable. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

@ Bridget:

That comment was supposed to start with “NJ”.

Deb wrote:

I predict that it will only get worse as time goes.

I’m sure. If they weren’t so eaten up with pride, they would go back and say ‘maybe this isn’t working’. Instead, they are trying to fix it by…telling abusive people not to be abusive! Smart. That will totally work.

It is not stupid for the leaders!

Lea wrote:

NJ wrote:
“Authority used rightly provides a special reflection of God’s character. The abuse of authority specially distorts it.”
–Mark Dever/Johnathan Leeman, Don’t Be A 9Marxist
I am so disgusted with Mark Dever here. Power attracts abusers. The more power you take for yourself, or your unvetted husbands and pastors, the more abuse you will have. The way to get less abuse is to fix the power dynamics, so the abused have a way to get out. Everything about the 9marx and complementarian systems set up a power dynamic that leaves people vulnerable. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Neal wrote:

There is a related proposed resolution at sbcvoices which may be of interest. http://sbcvoices.com/on-sexual-predation-in-the-southern-baptist-family

I read and commented on the resolution. I pointed out (as did the leaflet distributed by T4G “protestors”) that a similar 2013 resolution on child sex abuse contained the following language:

“RESOLVED, That we encourage all denominational leaders and employees of the Southern Baptist Convention to utilize the highest sense of discernment in affiliating with groups and or individuals that possess questionable policies and practices in protecting our children from criminal abuse … ”

Southern Baptist leaders at the conference ignored that, as they will the new resolution, if it indirectly points to ‘certain’ folks. The 2013 resolution was written at a time when SGM and Mahaney were being investigated; Mohler knew that.

I wrote an open letter to Mark Dever the other day. Be forewarned…its blunt.

https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/04/14/an-open-letter-to-mark-dever-part-1-of-2-posts/

“Some standing in line had no idea. One woman in the crowd yelled: “It’s all lies!””
++++++++++++

the hurtfulness of this woman’s non-thinking response. what a stupid woman.

@ Max:
The resolution is a joke. If they were manly men they would call for the state association to boot SGL from the convention. Yes. Embarrassing. So what?

“Another” resolution is to look like they are doing something and can point to it but is meaningless as they already passed similar. All hat. No cattle. Hollow men. Either they more afraid of Mohler than they are compassionate toward victims or they really are that hard hearted.

Eeyore wrote:

Practically speaking, a lot of their functional theology of authority comes from the Old Testament, especially Genesis and the Mosaic law. Those parts of the New Testament and the Gospels that upend those interpretations are marginalized or ignored.

I should have said, “Did Jesus explain that somewhere that they can point to?” Maybe by pointing to what Jesus said, they would also learn a few things . . . I can be hopeful . . .

Deb wrote:

anon wrote:
How would Al Mohler have felt if HIS DAUGHTER or SON were abused in church?
OR GRANDSON…
Mohler needs to get off his high horse and realize that those kids who were abused in his BFF’s former church were somebody’s grandchildren.
I don’t believe I have ever witnessed such a lack of compassion as Mohler demonstrated when he introduced Mahaney.

You that have not been to a seminary or served on a church staff don’t understand.
I have been out of the ” business” for years now. 30+ years.
It was bad then. I left because of stuff like this then….I can’t imagine with all the internet, TV stations, etc…and the possibility to make $$$ what it’s like today….
It is all about $$$$ and power…..as someone wrote above, ” Jesus wept.”

Janice McKenzie wrote:

“Vengeance is mine says the Lord.” “When you have done all, stand.” I believe we will see T4G fall like a house of cards. God is giving these leaders time to repent, but His patience has a time limit. It’s never as swift as we wish it, but just you wait. It will happen. And, I will not be gleeful, but saddened that so many were so pridefully blind. Just you wait.

I agree.

Deb wrote:

Another Presbyterian pastor, James Kessler, has weighed in via Facebook. I have updated the post by including this powerful commentary:
Look no one really wants to hear this, certainly not the 10,000 dutifully nodding through CJ Mahaney’s sermon or singing along with Bob Kauflin, one of CJ’s most steadfast supporters, not the men standing on the stage with CJ, who have chosen an unconscionable loyalty to a friend and encouraged him to take the horns of the pulpit to preach and to rip apart the wounds of so many abused under his watch. No one wants to hear this, not the men of my own denomination, who, make no mistake, will yet hear from their brothers over this awful sadness.
No one wants to hear about it, and I suppose that is their luxury because they are not the wounded, they are not the abused who were told to forgive and not to call the police. They are not plagued by nightmares, they are more fully functional if not more fully human. That hardness of hearing is their luxury, but it is privilege taxed from the bent backs of the humiliated, it is an arrogance woven from bruised reeds.
This is, of course, nothing new. The abuse began decades ago, but the new thing is the whitewash. The new thing is the happy embrace from supporters who know the record but have chosen to forsake the sheep who are harassed and helpless. New is the audacity of building a conference on the back of an abuser, inviting 10,000 Christians, many of whom teach the Scriptures on Sundays, and claiming the side of the King who loves the bruised reed, who loves the one caught among thorns, who hates the suffering of his little ones. This audacity is new. They know, but they do not care. It must stop. The men and women who believe they are graced by the aroma of heaven this week cannot smell, they cannot see, they cannot hear.
The church has had to wrestle with unity since the beginning, since Judas, since James and John. Since African Americans were treated to the gospel at the crack of a whip, the glory hidden by the shawl of Jim Crow. The church has always sought unity but finds it elusive. Today, this week, is no different. There is no togetherness for the gospel when the victim stands alone.
‪#‎T4G2016‬

Wow. Good stuff.

Deb wrote:

This audacity is new. They know, but they do not care. It must stop. The men and women who believe they are graced by the aroma of heaven this week cannot smell, they cannot see, they cannot hear.

Wow. Oh wow. This nails it. I thank him for his courage!

Deb wrote:

Mohler needs to get off his high horse and realize that those kids who were abused in his BFF’s former church were somebody’s grandchildren.

Grandchildren of LOWBORN COMMONERS.
Not his own HIGHBORN HEIRS.

Max wrote:

I read and commented on the resolution. I pointed out (as did the leaflet distributed by T4G “protestors”) that a similar 2013 resolution on child sex abuse contained the following language:

“RESOLVED, That we encourage all denominational leaders and employees of the Southern Baptist Convention to utilize the highest sense of discernment in affiliating with groups and or individuals that possess questionable policies and practices in protecting our children from criminal abuse … ”

And North Korea is always telling everyone how DEMOCRATIC their DEMOCRATIC People’s Republic is.

I just posted the following over at the voices site–I fully expect Miller to have a cardiac attack and delete my comment.

Dave: Are you saying just because Mohler is so cozy with Mahaney that we as SB should just overlook the serious issues past and current related to Mahaney?

Contrast Kessler’s Facebook post with the thread on SBCvoices where men won’t mention the obvious (except Louis-go Louis!) and the comments are mostly concering technicalities including NO retroactivity on the resolution.

If you guys ever wonder why I am so hard on these men- these pastors -it is because of this sort of thing.

I can’t prove this but I have been reading them long enough to know the patterns. (They of course trot out the old “you dont know my heart. Right. But i can track patterns of behavior!)

The earlier resolution by Peter lumpkins dealt with SBC associations with groups and denominations who protected predators. This current resolution is about SBC churches and entities.

Are you seeing how NO “retroactivity” is being used? Now that SGL is SBC, they would be untouchable. Don’t ever think they are not extremely politically clever. They are deceptive game players masquerading as reasoned men who care. They will trot out their resolution like they really care but they won’t lift one finger in action that would embarrass Mohler. Expect Moore to promote it in the media.

This resolution is coming at a time when the media and more people are turning against Mahaney. In their minds they have dealt with it by this resolution. They will inundate dissenters with technicalities. It is a sick world of smoke and mirrors.

@ Lydia:

Lydia: I am often ashamed I am still a Southern Baptist. I just try my best to serve the Lord in my local church.

Deb wrote:

@ molly245:
I absolutely concur with your commentary! We have written about the shepherding movement and Larry Tomczak in the past.
Perhaps we need to revisit this topic soon. We could even re-post some of the information we shared when we were an obscure blog with very few readers.

Well, I was a pioneering homeschooling mom in 1985….worked part time to set up a homeschooling section in the local “Christian” bookstore….I went to a lot of conferences, met some of these people personally & had a chance to really ask questions…this was allowed because I represented a vendor at the big Curriculum conventions.
It was a crazy time of so many “Instant Experts”….such a wide open field that if you spoke with authority—often you became one. Few people checked references in those days…
Also this coincided with teens who had been “Bill Gothardized” becoming of age and starting families. Add in Rushdoony et. al & it was a perfect storm of a situation ripe for abuse.
And it happened….

@ molly245:
You are right! I was not very plugged into that aspect of it. We were too busy trying to get positive secular coverage in the mega seeker world.

Whoa guys…I wasn’t agreeing with Dever in that quote. I was highlighting that in contrast to everything that has gone down with Mahaney. These authority figures seem to have a wilful blindness when it comes to their friend; they won’t apply their own words to situations that require it.

I’m not sure what it would take to wake them up. Maybe discovering that C.J. had molested kids himself?

Deb, I agree with you about that video. It’s probably already disappeared down the T4g memory hole.

NJ wrote:

Deb, I agree with you about that video. It’s probably already disappeared down the T4g memory hole.

“As of now, IT NEVER EXISTED, Comrades.”

molly245 wrote:

While there was no internet, there was a massive amount of magazines, catalogs, conferences, conventions….word of mouth is still a huge factor & perhaps even more so then…..At least in the homeschooling part of this equation, anyone who put out a catalog or wrote some little ‘curriculum’ published it accompanied by lots of self-serving (usually) infomercials and some very dubious scholarship to back up their claims. But it was highly effective.

“Open your workbooks and turn with Me
To the chapter on Authority;
Do you top the Chain of Command?
Rule your family with an Iron Hand?
Because a Good Wife learns to cower
Beneath the Umbrella of Power;
Under cover of Heaven’s Gate —
I. MANIPULATE.”
— Steve Taylor, “I Manipulate” (1985)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKlZ7U67Uio

Lydia wrote:

@ Eeyore:
I find it very confusing.they have a strange law/grace dichotomy that seems to fit whatever they need at the moment. Usually law for the victims. Grace for the perps and enablers.

Where is plain old right and wrong? Being able to point to what is obvious evil and saying, “that is evil”? It is all a jumble mess.

“For my friends, everything; for my enemies, the law.” It’s an old old story, not limited to TR circles unfortunately…

Max wrote:

Lydia wrote:
Mohler is made of Teflon
Yep. One of the definitions of teflon: “used to refer to someone able to withstand criticism or attack with no apparent effect.” That would be the good Dr. Mohler. He has extended his teflon armor to Mahaney. Why did Mahaney flee to Louisville? He knew Calvin would protect him in Geneva.

Another aspect of Teflon is that one of its constituents, C8/PFOA, causes cancer at very low concentrations:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/10/magazine/the-lawyer-who-became-duponts-worst-nightmare.html?_r=0
People can also be exposed by dry-heating a teflon pan…or armor

A new post at sbcvoices calls for amnesty for the likes of Mahaney. “Please hear me. I’m not arguing that the old ways were better. They weren’t. I’m simply saying that the pastors who handled things wrongly in the past were often good men with a bad battle plan.” http://sbcvoices.com/grace-sexual-predation-and-dealing-with-the-past/

@ Neal:

Well, he writes well, but he has left the path of common sense and basic human decency a time or two in that article. Compassion does not need some action plan before any decent human being can figure out that compassion is required of christians. Why excuse some actions just because there was not some policy in place at the time to tell the pastor and staff what to do? He has pastored 35 years or so, and he did not used to know what to do? Hogwash. That puts him back into the eighties. I knew what to do in the fifties because they taught us in nursing school for crying out loud. I heard tales of people reported to the authorities when I was in high school in the forties. He knew what to do, he just did not know if he could do it and keep his job. His plea that times were different back then has some plausibility but he takes it waaaaay too far. He seems to think that a pastor becomes excused from basic human responsibilities just because he is a pastor, unless of course his malpractice carrier told him something different and somebody wrote out a plan of some sort to tell him what to do.

He is saying that there were no plans in place and therefore nobody should expect a pastor to defend the helpless without a written plan to protect him from the consequences of his actions. I suppose that would be because those guys corks have quit bobbing a long time ago.

Clapping for James Kessler. Wow.

mot wrote:

Dave Miller is a scoundrel in my books. He does not stand against evil for the leaders who commit it in Southern Baptist life–he gives them a pass. He was a foot soldier in the so called Conservative Resurgence. I shudder to think how many lives he ruined of Godly men and women who did not meet the CR standards and had to go. I fear he has no heart.

And the SBC is FULL of men just like him….these guys couldn't (ed.) care less about anyone but themselves and their so-called " equals."

NJ wrote:

Whoa guys…I wasn’t agreeing with Dever in that quote.

I didn’t think you did. Your name gets copied along with the quote when you reply w/quote.

Todd Wilhlem wrote:

Janet Mefferd tweeted, in response to the pharisees Mohler, Dever, and Duncan:
“The willful deafness of his gospel buddies to this outcry shows it’s not just Mahaney who should get off the stage.”
T4G, what a sham.

I agree. And I went to the second one. Maybe they even started out with good intentions. All I know is what Jesus said – you shall know them by their fruit. These men are only together for the Benjamins.

mot wrote:

Dave Miller is a scoundrel in my books. He does not stand against evil for the leaders who commit it in Southern Baptist life–he gives them a pass. He was a foot soldier in the so called Conservative Resurgence. I shudder to think how many lives he ruined of Godly men and women who did not meet the CR standards and had to go. I fear he has no heart.

Remember that Pastor(TM) is in the Top Ten for all profession having the highest percentage of NPDs and Sociopaths….

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
HUG I wonder which of the Gods these SBC pastor’s worship and which bible they read for spiritual guidance.

I've been quiet here for awhile (not feeling good), but as Dr.Fundystan said, you will know them by their fruits. He said just what I was thinking. The Bible says that the tree that is not bearing good fruit will be pruned. I think these guys need a huge pruning. I don't see any fruit of the Spirit evident in their lives or what they are teaching. (As a side, I have my 17th foot surgery on my left foot next Wednesday, April 20th).

K.D. wrote:

mot wrote:

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
HUG I wonder which of the Gods these SBC pastor’s worship and which bible they read for spiritual guidance.

The God of $$$…

I believe the technical term is ‘Mammon’.

Dave Miller, in his article, says that one of the ways “we’ve made tremendous progress in the last 10 years or so” concerning sexual predation is that “we understand that we must side with the victim, not the abuser.”

That’s like saying that “we have discovered that water is wet.”

Is he saying that pastors were essentially brain-dead, and that they had/have less discernment and mere common sense than people chosen randomly from a crowd? I think he IS saying that, but doesn’t realize it. Instead he thinks he’s saying, “Thank God, we now have guidelines to tell us that we should side with the victim instead of the abuser.” And that this is “tremendous progress.” And he isn’t shriveling with embarrassment.

If the bar is set this low for pastors, they shouldn’t be trusted to do more than set up chairs, although they may need guidelines for this also.

JeffB wrote:

Is he saying that pastors were essentially brain-dead, and that they had/have less discernment and mere common sense than people chosen randomly from a crowd? I think he IS saying that, but doesn’t realize it. Instead he thinks he’s saying, “Thank God, we now have guidelines to tell us that we should side with the victim instead of the abuser.” And that this is “tremendous progress.” And he isn’t shriveling with embarrassment.

Exactly. He is proud. He also made it sound like lawyers and insurance companies spiritually enlightened these pastors.

Dave (Eagle) wrote:

I wrote an open letter to Mark Dever the other day. Be forewarned…its blunt.
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/04/14/an-open-letter-to-mark-dever-part-1-of-2-posts/

Very good. Kind of makes me wonder why all these celeb pastors are “standing by” their “man.” It makes no sense, but your theory makes perfect sense.

@ okrapod:
He has been with what is now called SGM since the beginning of thd 70s. He was Larry Tomczak’s protégé.

He has no excuse whatsoever. Gor thst matter, imo, neither does Tomczak.

One of my favorite pastors of all time is dr Martyn Lloyd Jones… It kills me that all of these guys have used his words and twisted them and battered people with the message …. They are so destructive

Protester Poster:

Front: Better Than He Deserves
Back: The Worst Sinner I Know

CLC had two in the 1980’s
Dave Adams
Nate Morales

One in the 1990’s
Underage Babysitter

Considering thousands of children came through the doors, it is remarkably safe.

Yentl wrote:

CLC had two in the 1980’s
Dave Adams
Nate Morales
One in the 1990’s
Underage Babysitter
Considering thousands of children came through the doors, it is remarkably safe.

How many children per defendent? And much untold? Not very safe when it is covered up?

Yentl wrote:

Considering thousands of children came through the doors, it is remarkably safe.

Just in this post, we have seen “denial” (‘it’s all lies!’) and “anger” (‘We love CJ!’). And now we see “bargaining” (‘Only three convicted pedophiles, that’s not bad odds!’) Is it too much to ask for that we will see some eventually get to “acceptance”?

@ Eeyore:
Oh. Was Yentl talking about conviction? The typical predator has an average of how many victims before they are usually convicted? 75-100, I think it is.

Sorry for my bad grammar. My blood was boiling. Second paragraph should read: if you state “we love CJ” you are affirming that pedophilia enabling and pedophilia and the damage it causes is biblically sanctioned.

How can people choose to be ignorant on a topic like this? Shame on them! And this is all I will write.

Lydia wrote:

The typical predator has an average of how many victims before they are usually convicted? 75-100, I think it is.

That would be 75-100 victims per abuser. I wonder how many parents and siblings and friends and maybe even teachers or neighbors of each victim knew about it and did nothing. What would be the probability that of that 75-100 victims absolutely nobody knew anything about it?

This is a systemic national problem affecting all segments of our society. Why else would we have to pass mandatory reporting laws unless we knew that people knew and were hiding it with silence? Why else would we have to bring the weight of the law into play to make people report what they knew to be true? Because they know, and we all know they know; that is why we have to pass laws about it.

And now we have the professionally religious saying for all to hear that we can’t expect anything better from them unless they have a piece of paper which says that they are required to report abuse. I think that said professionally religious know good and well about the frequency of abuse in our culture and know good and well how we have conspired together as a culture to ignore it, and I suspect that what they are saying is that they themselves should not be the ones who have to stand against this evil because the rest of the pack of those who tolerate it will at best drive them out of the pack and at worst devour them personally and professionally.

This is not the only way that our culture neglects and abuses its children. This just happens to be the topic of the current conversation.

http://hotair.com/headlines/archives/2015/12/27/the-real-victims-of-victimhood/

Former CLCer wrote:

I just watched a clip of C.J. preaching and I couldn’t even make it through the few minute clip. Bad memories! He should have majored in theater. Oh right – he didn’t go to college.

Somebody posted the video he did the voice work on to girls at the seminary (?I think?) about being modest so 18-22 year old guys don’t get turned on by them…It was creepy.

I think one of the most interesting things that can come out of this is for those who sit in the congregations of these ‘great (self-circle of acclaim) men’ for them to infer from Mohler’s comment what these men truly think of those that buy their books and embrace their teaching. Mohler and his buddies are the aristocracy–those that make their lifestyle possible are simply the chattel or serfs. Mohler’s open contempt in that statement serves two purposes–to exalt Mahaney and themselves and to warn that any who try to hole them accountable will be humiliated and attacked in ways, both aggressive and passive aggressive.

Sickened and saddened by these ‘men’ though I think them quite cowardly in how they have handled themselves. That thousands, perhaps millions, are fanboys shows how far we have fallen from the Berean example of Scripture.

Bart, thank you for engaging this community; it takes courage and grace on everyone’s part. Having been in leadership in what seems a past life, the awakening to the truth that we fall short is painful and difficult. Thanks for your vulnerability in telling us your about your journey. We do welcome you to this broken place we spill out our lives in–if I learned anything while in leadership, it was to appeal to God for the grace and wisdom first, to do no harm to those most vulnerable, and secondly, to be a shock absorber for the pain that many feel.

This is a conversation–it demands much of all of us, but it is worth the cost.

Bart Barber wrote:

You may not care about SBC polity.

I am glad that someone cares about it, though. My main concern is how things play out in the ‘trenches’. If it leads to more protection for people who are being abused, that is a positive.

You can’t fix the past, only the future. I work in the hospital world, and we do reviews of systems and of people when things go wrong because sometimes the problem is the provider, sometimes it’s the system, sometimes it’s both. I would like to see the churches do a lot more of that.

I do think it’s strange that the sbc would bring someone like CJ into the fold, so to speak, after this stuff had already been to come out. (if I have the sequence of events down correctly – not an expert in this)

Bart Barber wrote:

“All hat. No cattle”

You’ll have to explain what THAT means to Easterners like me! 🙂
Thank you for your resolution and for taking the time to come here and comment. I’m one of the parents of a sexual abuse victim from SGM. I am very blessed that so many people of varying denominations are standing up and saying we need to fix this problem in our ranks. I felt so discouraged during the past few years when man after man, pastor or theologian, whose sermons I had listened to and taken notes on or whose books I had bought – stood with CJ Mahaney and not in the ditch with the discarded abuse victims. I am very grateful that pastors like yourself are speaking out for the victims and trying to make change happen in the churches. Please contact me if there is anyway that my husband, Dominic, and I can help your efforts. We were both at the T4G protest this week. You can get my contact info from TWW. God bless.

Bart Barber wrote:

“All hat. No cattle … “hollow man.”

Dr. Barber, those were not my comments on TWW … they were the response of another commenter to my post about the resolution. My comment regarding your resolution can be found at 04/14 12:06 PM. You will note that I expressed concern that some SBC leaders have appeared to have ignored the “discernment” language in the 2013 resolution when it comes to SGM and Mr. Mahaney … I am pleased to hear that you supported removing him from the platform at T4G.

I, do indeed, think your resolution is great and timely and hope the SBC approves it. No talking out of both sides of my mouth on this.

@ Max:

My apologies, Max. Unfamiliar with the site, I misread the comment. Thank you for your gracious correction. You could certainly have been more harsh.

@ Max:
Right, it was just a girl who said it so it doesn’t matter. :o)

Pam Palmer wrote:

“All hat. No cattle”

You’ll have to explain what THAT means to Easterners like me! 🙂

Texas regional expression:
A lot of talk and posing with nothing to back it up.
All surface, all for show, no substance.

Perhaps I am messed up in the head about this, but in a way I think it actually demeans this cause if I were to make it about one specific violator of these principles. There are people who oppose CJ Mahaney for reasons other than the sexual abuse. There are people who oppose Al Mohler for reasons other than his friendship with Mahaney. There are people who would gladly use the pretext of sexual abuse to take down someone they oppose for other reasons. I think that’s horrifically disrespectful toward the victims of abuse.

So, I’m trying to avoid those factions and rivalries. I’m trying to draw the convention’s attention and resolve toward sexual predation for sexual predation’s sake, not for the sake of “I never did like that Mahaney fellow.” Because, really, this subject matter is important enough all by itself, and it shouldn’t carry water for other motives.

Again, maybe I look at it the wrong way. But that’s my sincere feeling about it.

Tree wrote:

Book give away? At T4G? I’ll say! I counted twenty books in the photo that a friend, an SBC pastor, posted as one of the “many blessings” of attending.

I’m not sure why these are called free books. There is a hefty registration fee, is there not? Wouldn’t the cost of books be calculated into that fee? Charging a big fee then giving away “free” books makes sure the books get into everyone’s hands more reliably than letting them choose to buy them one by one.

@ Bart Barber:
I think Lydia may be referring to a comment Dave Miller made:
“We ought not be retroactive. If someone sinned, let them repent, but we need to change the mindset and behavior.

Shaming and putting people on public display because of past mistakes ought not be the priority. Prevention of future sins should be. And helping current victims find freedom.”

Bart Barber wrote:

Perhaps I am messed up in the head about this, but in a way I think it actually demeans this cause if I were to make it about one specific violator of these principles.

I don’t really agree, if that person brought to light a systemic problem. Sometimes we don’t realize how much something needs to change until we see one terrible example.

Wasn’t there a pastor who counseled someone to go back to their abusive husband and then she was murdered? Changed his mind. It wouldn’t be disrespectful to her memory if it changed policy as well.

I have a question about the pastors having affairs with people under their care…was it not already forbidden for them to have anything to do with people they are counseling? I honestly don’t know the answer. In the mental health world this is standard, and violators can lose their jobs and licenses.

Lea wrote:

I have a question about the pastors having affairs with people under their care…was it not already forbidden for them to have anything to do with people they are counseling? I honestly don’t know the answer. In the mental health world this is standard, and violators can lose their jobs and licenses.

Pastors aren’t licensed by the state, nor by any authoritative, all-encompassing professional guild. Our church’s new Constitution & Bylaws require that we rescind the ordination of anyone whom we have ordained who has engaged in such shenanigans. More hierarchical denominations can take such action and affect more churches by doing so, but nobody can prevent someone from just leaving the sphere of your church’s authority and launching a new non-denominational church.

In the thread over at the SBC Voices post I’ve weighed in about my opinion that any time any pastor has any sexual relationship with any person other than his wife, that’s sexually predatory. Most canons of ministerial ethics agree. None of them are enforceable beyond the cubbyholes I mentioned above.

@ Bart Barber:
Bart:

What a bunch of malarkey. You want to make it about whether some like Mahaney or not. It is about child abuse. Why don’t you admit that you and Folks like Dave Miller are nothing but da m politicians. Yes, you are looking at it wrong.

Nancy2 wrote:

Yentl wrote:

Considering thousands of children came through the doors, it is remarkably safe.

Do you have children …. grandchildren?
Would you still say that if yours had been among those children who were abused?
And, how many more abusers and abused do we not know about?

JMJ over at Christian Monist mentioned a couple times that in the Bible Belt church he was raised in (presumably some sort of Baptist), it was an open secret that one of the senior staff (assistant pastor?) was a pedo. The Respectable Godly Ones in the congregation would guard their own kids by steering new members with kids to Pastor Pedo so that Pastor Pedo would molest THEIR kids, not Mine.

mot wrote:

You want to make it about whether some like Mahaney or not.

No. I’m not saying it is that way for everyone, or even for most. I’m just saying that Al Mohler and CJ Mahaney do have some enemies who would latch onto this to advance their agendas.

In application of the resolution by specific action, I’m happy to see the chips fall where they may. In promotion of the resolution’s adoption, I want to talk about ALL sexual predation in churches, and not just about polarizing personalities.

Bart Barber wrote:

Our church’s new Constitution & Bylaws require that we rescind the ordination of anyone whom we have ordained who has engaged in such shenanigans.

Thanks. That’s what I was curious about.

I’m not for rape and child sexual abuse.

But, if the focus of all of this was spiritual abuse, you would have 2000 CLC people protesting at T4G. If the focus was calling out hypocrisy, you would have 2000 CLC people at T4G. If the focus was calling out men who abandoned their flock when confronted, you would have 2000 CLC people protesting. If it was about divisiveness, they would all be there.

Sexual abuse just does not characterize the primary issues at CLC and everyone at CLC knows that. How they treated sexual abuse victims was characteristic of how they stomped on all people. But, the place didn’t have any more sex abusers than any other church in America. In fact, contrary to what people say here, it probably had significantly less.

Also, there is much sympathy among CLC members for the men who were falsely accused in the lawsuit and how it has completely destroyed their lives.

I’m sure any of those men at T4G with churches with thousands of members have had a handful of child molesters come through and like most churches in the 1980’s, they may have not reported to police. Child molesters prey on these sorts of open gatherings. As far as anyone knows, Nate Morales was the only serial pedophile who sought out numerous children while employed by a different church and school.

What the people at T4G need to understand is the unique abusive practices of SGM leadership and the spiritual impact of men “speaking for God” out of one side of their mouths and “stomping on God’s people” out of the other.

I’m afraid the sexual abuse issue is a distraction from the greater issue of spiritual abuse. And because of how it has been misrepresented in the media, it leave victims of spiritual abuse without a voice.

@ Lea:

That said, spiritual abuse should absolutely be addressed.

Bart Barber wrote:

@ Lydia:

Lydia, there’s nothing in the resolution that grandfathers anyone into anything, to my knowledge. Would you care to quote the specific part of the resolution that gives you that concern? I thought that it specifically called to repentance and apology those churches who had made mistakes in the past. Here’s the specific wording that I have in mind:

“Resolved that we humbly and gently commend the way of apology and repentance to our sister churches and to various parachurch institutions who have failed to handle appropriately the discovery of sexual misconduct in their congregations or institutions.”

Again, I am happy to consider specific wording in the resolution that you think might provide excuses to past misdeeds.

Nancy had it right. You guys worked that one out in comments, if I recall correctly. It stood out to me, at least. It stands to reason that any resolution would be in effect(whatever that means) when passed so it would not be hard to explain the Mahaney new SBC church away.

@ Bart Barber:

Like I said, you seem to be doing what you can with what you have to work with. That’s all you can do.

Let me ask this, however, about rescinding ordination. It used to be that a person did not have to be ordained to pastor a church affiliated with SBC; some were merely ‘licensed to preach’ by some church. Is this still the case? And it used to be that ordination was something a church did, not something the convention did, though you seem to be saying otherwise? Perhaps I am misunderstanding the current situation. How can the convention rescind ordination which was done by an autonomous local church? And if they can would not this be de facto hierarchical?

BTW, I have no idea what DVR means. What are you talking about?

okrapod wrote:

BTW, I have no idea what DVR means.

It’s a recording device, like a vcr 🙂

@ mot:

That has been a deflection for a long time in that world. And some do operate that way when it comes to Paige Patterson or AL Mohler. But as bad as some people have behaved in the past such as Patterson, the Mahaney/SGM situation is an over-the-top heinous Scandal of perversion that was/is systemic.

They tend to fear Al Mohler to the peril of their own soul. If you can find one SBC Pastor, entity leader or trustee who has spoken out about AL Mohlers promotion and protection of Mahaney, let me know.

Lydia wrote:

systemic

This is the part I don’t feel like people are getting. Instead, the systems are getting more authoritarian, not less. That will only lead to more abuse.

My partner went undercover and attended the Larry Caffery hearing. Only problem is she blew her cover! Interesting stuff.

https://thouarttheman.org/2016/04/15/clc-leaders-bo-lotinsky-don-nalle-just-told-larry-caffery-covenant-life-church-supporting/

For those of you unfamilar with the case, Caffery, a CLC member, was arrested for sexually abusing his daughter. Originally jailed, he is currently out on bail.

Bart Barber wrote:

In application of the resolution by specific action, I’m happy to see the chips fall where they may. In promotion of the resolution’s adoption, I want to talk about ALL sexual predation in churches, and not just about polarizing personalities.

Being a Christian Celebrity with a polarizing personality gets them a pass because one does not want it to look like they have an agenda?

Where is the concern for normalizing someone like Mahaney in ministry whose system covered up so much damage done to children? Yes, that is a good agenda.

Yes, it is a lot to risk when you are a pastor and trustee speaking up
for the right thing to do in the SBC. You were outspoken about Baylor.

okrapod wrote:

@ Bart Barber:
Like I said, you seem to be doing what you can with what you have to work with. That’s all you can do.
Let me ask this, however, about rescinding ordination. It used to be that a person did not have to be ordained to pastor a church affiliated with SBC; some were merely ‘licensed to preach’ by some church. Is this still the case? And it used to be that ordination was something a church did, not something the convention did, though you seem to be saying otherwise? Perhaps I am misunderstanding the current situation. How can the convention rescind ordination which was done by an autonomous local church? And if they can would not this be de facto hierarchical?
BTW, I have no idea what DVR means. What are you talking about?

Actually the convention has taken action against churches that don’t follow its doctrinal standard. I believe in past local associations or state conventions or the national level convention have kicked out churches over issues such as women preachers and some other issues. It is an unusual structure where the churches are autonomous but work with each other in association with the state conventions and the national convention. Being kicked out of the convention can mean a great deal. Yes there are baptists who listen to Joyce Meyer. But she may not be any more doctrinally suspicious than Steven Furtick. I don’t personally have a problem with a preacher such as Beth Moore if she is preaching the Word of God. There are some gifted female preachers out there, even though they call themselves teachers, Ordination can be man made when a person, regardless of sex, has a calling.

@ Mark:
I think it is local associations and/or state conventions who do the kicking out. Two such instances come to mind. I think one was in Georgia for hiring a woman pastor (name ofPennington, I think..it was on the internet) and another in Dallas or Ft Worth that allowed homosexuals to become members.

But you can systematically cover up child molestation and become an SBC church in KY. You just need to know the right people.

__

Q. Is there bigger 501(c)3 pastorial ‘fish’ for The Almighty to fry than “CJ Ma-WHO-ney” ™ ?

The Almighty is certainly not slow about keeping His word, as some count slowness, but is patient toward folk, not wishing for any to perish but for  ‘all’ to come to repentance…

—

About this issue of there are some people in some baptist churches who listen to Joyce Meyer first let me say that I have never listened to nor attended one of her appearances at the local coliseum, but a lot of people have. I know next to nothing about her. I literally cannot tolerate Beth Moore but I only know enough about her to avoid the whole issue. So what I am about so say has nothing to do with either of them. Nothing. Not because they are female but only because I have not been interested enough to investigate at this point. But I do believe in people exploring other ideas including other philosophical and theological ideas on a wide range of subjects.

Does everybody know that the RCC quit publishing the Index Librorum Phohibitorum back in the sixties I think. Prior to that the baptists of my youth used to criticize the RCC long and loud about censorship and declare the conscience of man to be free of such a thing. What I am hearing seems to be that this has changed among the baptists and there is now an idea that mind control of the pew persons is a good thing. Be sure they don’t get exposed to other ideas apparently. Keep them ignorant of anything beyond the local church doors. And apparently this is widespread if people at the convention level know what people are doing in private?? I can’t even believe this.

It’s easy for us all to jump on the “child sexual abuse” cause because we all get that. And, everyone in the world agrees it is wrong. It’s easier to explain.

But, we need to find the words to explain the devastating impact of spiritual abuse. We need to talk about the conflict when leaders you believed were hearing from God turn on you and mistreat you behind closed doors. We should talk about how it affects us when thousands of Christian leaders gather to affirm them. What does it say if it appears God is on their side? We should talk about shunning and favoritism and nepotism and learning your “station” in the kingdom of God. We should be taught about the dangers of “distrusting our own hearts” and embracing proclamations that contradict the still small voice within us.

We should talk about the breech of contract when we signed up to be members and entered into a covenant with them and they have since embraced a theology that is completely contrary to what we signed. We should say how that forces us as members to have to leave the body and family we have known for decades or sit before teaching that makes our hearts and souls dreadfully sick.

Let’s talk about cognitive dissonance that occurs when we are taught to reject our gut feeling as deceitfully wicked and instead embrace something that seems worldly and wrong.

We should tell those guys at T4G how one man’s selfish refusal to acknowledge ANYTHING he has done has caused an entire generation AND THEIR PARENTS to fall away. This was a generation who were lovingly homeschooled and trained and taught by their families. One action by one man destroyed the Gospel for hundreds if not thousands.

I fear for him. This man, as he has often said, will one day have to stand and give an account for how he pastored his sheep. Terrifying.

If God were speaking to these leaders, He would be telling them they are wrong.

Therefore…

Let’s all come to grips with that for a second.

@ okrapod:
This is a huge concern of mine. Even to the point that I am concerned about the effects of teaching my children as my parents taught me to question what I was taught, politely, as a kid, to think through issues, be independent, etc. It will be harder for them to function in this culture. Conformity to a group (the collective) is the way things function now whether politics or religion. Even some workplaces that seem to think they must organize people’s social life, too. Even i got sucked in for a while knowing better at megas.. education has become like this. Academia has become ridiculous with everyone offended all the time. People end up not speaking truth and going along because it might offend the collective. And then where will they go if the collective is offended?

Liftons Thought reform is a good thing to teach our kids. When you are around situations where Conformity is a peer pressure it becomes harder to see what is really going on. People fear not being liked or part of the group if they dare disagree. We are certainly not going to get better as a nation in that environment. And it is positively ridiculous in the body of Christ. That should be a place where we discuss all sorts of positions, ideas and philosophies. But we are too busy listening to one guy week after week from whom we seek truth. Strange that. Another reason I am drawn to liturgical now.

I am not in agreement with pastors who teach the subjugation of women but I can also make a good case against it. but i also agree they are free to believe and practice what they want if they can get adult customers. But I am outraged at the organized systemic cover-up of molested children. I can’t live peacefully with that. Or those who participate with such.

Mark wrote:

Actually the convention has taken action against churches that don’t follow its doctrinal standard.

My old church got kicked out a few years ago for this reason.

okrapod, I think Bart was mentioning DVR’ing as some sort of point about going against individuals (I guess in this he meant people who are listening to a woman preach? Which is a whole nother issue I’m not getting into right now) versus churches. In this, I think he’s saying that individuals like people in the church who do something bad are sort of beyond his reach. Of course, we are talking about pastors and staff (of course, every male on staff at a Baptist church seems to be a pastor now. What’s up with that?) here mostly.

And that leaves off the systemic issues, which really have to be addressed. Bad people are going to be around, but how do you deal with them? How do you react to a crisis? You cannot plan for every crisis that will happen, sometimes you have to act based on what is right and decent. I find it disturbing that pastors cannot be counted on to at least try to do this.

okrapod wrote:

And if there is some collection system of what would otherwise be private information what else might they be looking for besides Joyce Meyer?

What I meant above is that I don’t think he’s actually talking about collecting this information, just that the convention can only go after churches not individuals. (it’s probably not the example I would have used for this)

How did that get posted twice? Apologies!

@ Max:
That’s cult like.

Neal wrote:

A new post at sbcvoices calls for amnesty for the likes of Mahaney. “Please hear me. I’m not arguing that the old ways were better. They weren’t. I’m simply saying that the pastors who handled things wrongly in the past were often good men with a bad battle plan.

(Bolding above mine)

So, which stance does he want to take? We CAN judge motive or we CAN NOT judge motive?

The above quote makes it clear that HE thinks their motives were good, they just had poor application.

Further down below his article he posts the following in one of his replies:

” It deals with the intents of the heart. Two people do exactly the same thing – one out of confusion and the other out of ill-will.

Here’s my question – how does any of us know which is which?

…

My question to you is this: how are we to judge what a man’s motives were?
Is that not better left to the Holy Spirit?”

Evidently Mr. Miller doesn’t believe that such should be left to the Holy Spirit – since the underlying foundational point of his article is the assertion that THESE PEOPLE MEANT WELL.

I guess HE found the way “how” to judge such and therefore proceeded to publicly offer his judgement of their motives?

However, the reality is – turning away from the *facts* of what happened in order to focus on *motives* is just obfuscation.

In his article, his summation is:

“To prosecute leaders for actions in the past based on the mindset of today is unfair.

Mindset? The world’s or the Lord’s?

Following is an example of the Lord’s:

30 Jesus replied, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who stripped him and beat him and departed, leaving him half dead.

31 Now by chance a priest was going down that road, and when he saw him he passed by on the other side.

32 So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.

33 But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was, and when he saw him, he had compassion.

34 He went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he set him on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him.

35 And the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper, saying, ‘Take care of him, and whatever more you spend, I will repay you when I come back.’
“

Please note – Jesus didn’t address the MOTIVES of any of them.

He describes their *actions*.

Their *actions* revealed their motives.

Which one had a compassionate heart?

The one who stopped.

The one who used his own supply of oil, wine and cloth to bind the wounds.

The one who got off his own ride, and put the wounded on it.

The one who interrupted his own schedule and plans in order to get the wounded to a safe place.

The one who paid for a roof over the wounded’s head and food for him to eat.

The one who took care of the wounded all night.

The one who paid with his own money for room and board for the wounded so that there was time and supplies for the wounded to heal.

The one who told the innkeeper that he would pay for whatever additional expenses were incurred.

Now, bring all that forward to the evidence we have seen of the mindset of churchianity…

They have no compassion.

They are not moved by the wounds and suffering of those in their care.

They do not offer anything beyond some of their time and a lot of their words.

And even their time and words are available for a very limited period – because their resentment soon begins leaking through when the wounded don’t heal and shut up fast enough.

GSD wrote:

McArthur just preached from Revelation that churches need to repent. For once, I agree with Johnny Mac. Question is, repent from what?

Well, based on their general focus, and keeping in mind that in this case “church” is likely being defined as being the pew peons – not the leaders.

Repent from disobedience to the leaders.

Repent from lack of submission to the leaders.

Repent from every discussing or questioning the leaders’ teachings or life.

Repent for ever doubting the leaders.

Repent for ever blogging about the leaders.

Repent for ever asking questions of the leaders.

Repent from failing to support the leaders’ casted vision.

That’s off the top of my head.

See, if we pew peons just stopped doing all that kind of stuff – churchianity would have absolutely NO problems!

Have You Been Sexually Abused? You Can’t Work In This Church
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/04/15/churches-ask-job-seekers-were-you-sexually-abused-as-a-child.html

“Church job seekers are being asked if they were sexually abused as children based on the false belief that victims will become abusers. The worst part —this discrimination is legal.”

BL wrote:

Please note – Jesus didn’t address the MOTIVES of any of them.
He describes their *actions*.
Their *actions* revealed their motives.

Thank you! Watch what people do.

GSD wrote:

For what it’s worth, I watched as much of T4G as I could stand. Just from a content standpoint, I can’t figure out why someone would spend hundreds of dollars to be there in person, when the live feed was free.

For all the free books.

I know. Here is my two pence worth. If CJ Mahaney is truly humble and godly, why would it matter so much to him and them to continue preaching with unresolved relational and legal business outstanding? The stubborn stonewalling of victims actually makes him look more capable of coverup, not less. And the choice of intro and topics he taught on are nothing less than an attempt to rehabilitate his image and silence critics. How is any of that consistent with dealing with multiple charges against an elder in the way TGC types churchdiscipline their subjects? I use that word (subjects), because this whole mess shows us how they view those under their perceived authority. Fact is, they lost all respect from many Christians nation and worldwide over this, because it’s more and more obvious they could care less about the many families exposed to abusers. For example Nate Morales who was known to SGM while leading in a church in Vegas. If it is correct that investigations were underway in five states about him, that shows what SGM leadership are responsible for. And that is just one abuser. He was convicted and in court testimony states leadership knew and yet didn’t report. Another news report suggests that SGM leaders heard Nate Morales was in leadership in Vegas but decided against action. More children were harmed by this one pedophile because of their desire to cover their brand. And my military family lived in Vegas for seven years. Thank God my children were barely born when Morales was caught. Thank God we didn’t end up at his church. Because we never would have known, because of SGM leadership’s systemic failure to report abuse. And that convicted pedophile was just one abuser. There are fifteen abusers connected to SGM per SNAP. Anyone who thinks that is ok needs to repent and go work at McDonalds. These arrogant callous prideful booksellers have no business leading the people of God.
@ Todd Wilhlem:

Exactly. I kept hoping I’d hear JMac called out the hypocrisy and coverup directly. Then I read what Phil Johnson said on FB. Those guys are irrelevant. They chose to love words not the Word and His people. It’s pathetic really.
@ BL:

Abi Miah wrote:

GSD wrote:

For what it’s worth, I watched as much of T4G as I could stand. Just from a content standpoint, I can’t figure out why someone would spend hundreds of dollars to be there in person, when the live feed was free.

For all the free books.

Gotta build a bigger book stack than Mohler or Piper…

Harley wrote:

I don’t see any fruit of the Spirit evident in their lives or what they are teaching. (As a side, I have my 17th foot surgery on my left foot next Wednesday, April 20th).

1) Exactly. In fact, in many cases I see clearly “the works of the flesh” in their “ministries.
2) Oh good lord! I hope it is successful, and that you recover fully and quickly!

@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:

“Complete fluff with virtually no thought behind them. Pop theology bullspit. Nothing a thinking person would even waste their time on.”
+++++++++++++

some years ago my family & I went to a Christian conference center (in a redwood forest) for a week during the summer. I had gone there many times as a kid, had fabulous experiences. I was so surprised, this time as an adult. I was completely bored. there was nothing the speakers said that was interesting, or insightful. devoid of any shred of inspiration.

is it that these speakers/pastors/turned-book-writers are so conditioned to believe that they are so exalted that anything they communicate (even threadbare material) is automatically marvelous and inspired?

or is it that they don’t care any more, beyond fulfilling publishing contracts and accumulating speaking fees?

or is it that people are conditioned to have a happy, engaged deer-in-the-headlights look, which feeds the ego of the speaker and makes him feel significant, and no one realizes the lack of substance? a synergistic feed off each other thing.

So I just figured it out… T4G means “Together for the GOLD”

Very interesting. Bob Mumford was a major influence on the predominantly Catholic (but ecumenical) “charismatic covenant community” my goddaughter belonged to for 23 years. I had never heard of the guy before. He sounds like a real charmer. :p

molly245 wrote:

I don’t endorse any of the Mahaney/SGM actions in the abuse coverup, their treatment of Larry Tomczak or any others abused by this gang of thugs.

But, I do feel it’s important to look at the roots of some of CJ’s behavior as relates to Larry Tomczak.

Larry picked CJ as a young disciple, way back in the ’80s…they were closely allied with Bob Mumford and the disastrous shepherding movement….where shunning was normal, heavy handed arrogant men attempted to regulate every part of a believers life….

In fact, Larry was so arrogant that he was sued for slander by a popular author of the day, and paid a substantial penalty for that arrogance. (See NYTimes article http://www.nytimes.com/1983/09/10/arts/author-wins-judgment-for-slander.html )

Larry’s extremely arrogant assertion that ‘Proper Parenting=Perfect Kids’ was a source of great misery for many many parents.

In addition, he makes some truly horrifying recommendations in his books on Child Discipline, which to my certain knowledge, led to at least 1 couple in a local church to be charged and convicted of child abuse.

So no, CJ has no excuse. But, the learner did learn well from his teacher.
I’d like to see more acknowledgement of the roots (at least from 1970’s) of just how this got going….from people like Larry Tomczak, Mary Pride (homoeschooling guru) and Greg Harris–Joshua’s father..

@ Chris Dean:

“I’m an SBC Calvinist church planter, and while I don’t agree with every point of doctrine and practice espoused here at TWW”
+++++++++

Thanks for commenting, Chris. And for your support at the T4G thing. Just curious — I don’t see doctrine espoused at TWW — if anything, it’s more in the un-doctrine direction. less embroidery, less convolution, less formula, less rules, less must’s and must not’s.

if there is a ‘doctrine’ espoused at TWW I imagine it would be kindness, compassion, and justice, not necessarily in that order. what doctrine do you see here at TWW?

Amen!!!! Praise the Lord!!!! And I’m not being facetious. 😉
Praise the Lord.
@ Deb:

Hi all

First time commenter from Down Under, but have been reading for a couple of months. Really good work here and I commend the two D’s and your faithfulness in keeping on with this sorely needed voice. Like the discussions and different viewpoints. Agree with some, disagree with others – hey, iron sharpens iron and I think it’s important to make the effort understand a contrary viewpoint.

On topic, I am a husband of one and father of two. Absolutely disgusted with these ‘great’ so-called theological heavies closing ranks to laud and protect the vile CJ Mahaney and completely ignore the victims of systematic sexual abuse. A good beating – forgive me but I speak as a dad of young children – is what these bloody idiots need. They are without love for the little ones, all their theology and teaching is like clanging cymbals as Paul says. I’m no Calvinist and I disagreed with these guys on those doctrines but I thought they were honourable otherwise.

Won’t make that mistake again.

I repeat, in my opinion, these men need a good kicking to knock some sense into them. I simply can’t understand how you can read and study God’s word and remain completely devoid of integrity in this manner – but clearly it is most eminently possible. Together for the gospel indeed….what gospel can these charlatans possibly have to offer anyone? Love of money and power perhaps….

PS. In case anyone’s wondering what sort of Aussie last name I have, I’m an African-born Aussie…of South Asian ethnicity. Hope that makes me a citizen of the earth….

Lydia wrote:

Where is plain old right and wrong? Being able to point to what is obvious evil and saying, “that is evil”? It is all a jumble mess.

“Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness …” (Isaiah 5:20). It’s bad enough when this goes on in the world, but much of the church has also become confused when it comes to right vs. wrong.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

siteseer wrote:

elastigirl wrote:

“Some standing in line had no idea. One woman in the crowd yelled: “It’s all lies!””
++++++++++++
the hurtfulness of this woman’s non-thinking response. what a stupid woman.

Mind numbingly stupid.

Stimulus –> Response, like Pavlov’s dogs.
No higher brain functions involved at all.

Most likely, because no higher brain functions were present. Typical Mahaney &Co worshipper: No brain, loud mouth.

Here is The Daily Beast link for today’s story on the protest: http://thebea.st/1W83Lkf. TWW is mentioned for its coverage as well as a quote from Dee.

“Al Mohler called Mahaney kind and humble today. Victims are invisible in their conferences,” tweeted Dee Parsons, co-editor of The Wartburg Watch, a blog that tracks “disturbing trends within Christendom” and which has followed the scandal.

I also like this quote in TDB article:

“There is no togetherness for the gospel when the victim stands alone,” responded James Kessler, senior pastor at New City Presbyterian Church in Hilliard Ohio.

Bravo. Real Christians standing for truth. Loving what God loves, and hating what God hates.

Velour wrote:

I’m not certain why Dr. Anna Salter, author of Predators, and an expert in sex crimes wasn’t consulted about questions that churches should ask.

She wasn’t a Liability Lawyer.

@ Chris Dean:

Chris was asked two simple questions following this post. Neither have been answered. The question I asked could be asked of any school teacher, lawyer, IT person, banker, baker, professional athlete, brain surgeon, etc. and you would get a quick and exact answer. But ask a church planter?! Everyone is planting a church. And not for the noblest of reasons. I know of a young man right now who was just dismissed from his youth ministry job at a local church. He's taken to the internet and is moving 3000 miles to the west coast to plant a church. (I'm fearful that his dismissal was for reasons all too common today and much discussed here at TWW). We need a moratorium on church planting.