Woman With Red Hair, Crying
(I am grateful to a person on Twitter who provided me with information about Westminster’s graduation.)
We must never forget. Westminster has forgotten. I haven’t. Huritt hasn’t.
I was upset when I read the following announcement from Westminster Theological Seminary. Pay attention to the name: Rev Steve Estes.
The 94th Annual Commencement
Graduation is fast approaching! Join us on May 25 at 2 PM (ET) to celebrate the 2023 graduating class in our 93rd Annual Commencement.
This year’s commencement speech will be issued by Dr. John Frame, followed by a charge to graduates from Rev. Steve Estes.
…Rev. Steve Estes is Senior Pastor at Brick Lane Community Church in Elverson Pennsylvania. He has B.S. from Columbia Bible College (1974), a M.Div. from Westminster Theological Seminary (1980), and a Th.M. from Westminster Theological Seminary (1987). He has also served in various ministry capacities, such as Summer Street Evangelism and Church Youth Directorships in the 1970s. He was also Guest Lecturer in Westminster Theological Seminary’s Sermon Delviery course from 2013 to 2019. He has served on the Board of Trustees at CCEF for the past 30 years and has been Senior Pastor at Brick Lane Community Church for the past 36 years.
Dr. Frame and Rev. Estes will also receive honorary doctorates from Westminster during the event.
Westminster is one of those Gospel Coalition-approved, ardently Reformed seminaries. Given their history, this historical post will come as no surprise. In 2017 I wrote Evangelical Free Church of America Intervenes in Punishment of Abuse Victim; Steve Estes Thumbs His Nose and Westminster Theological Seminary Remains Silent. Looking at the post’s title, I realize nothing has changed. It could be the title of this post. Six years have passed. I met several people associated with this story and still remember how painful this was. I sit here now, still shaking my head.
Begin the original post from 2017:
Here is a review of the incident that was brought to the attention of the EFCA hierarchy.
On March 16, 2016, TWW posted The Allegedly Abusive Church Discipline Practices of Steve Estes: Senior Pastor of CEFC and Lecturer at Westminster Theological Seminary. After hearing about the story from David Bonner, I have spoken to four friends of the abused victim, and I believe their accounts.
The situation:
Hurit was married for a few years to Brock Estes, son of the Senior Pastor of CEFC. Brock is allegedly an excessive drinker (some would say alcoholic), addicted to internet pornography(which is NOT a victimless crime) and abusive verbally and physically. He allegedly drew a gun on his wife and, on another occasion, put her in a choke hold so strong that she almost passed out. Brock alleges that he has a *sleep disorder.* However, except for getting a prescription of Xanax, he reportedly did not seek help for this alleged problem. (Note: any normal, non-abusive man who almost shoots his wife would get intensive medical help immediately. Instead, he got an anti-anxiety drug.) Since Brock is a prison guard, I would think the prison authorities were surely made aware of this problem…
Steve Estes and His Boys (aka *Elders*) excommunicated the wife for not following their *authority* but Steve’s little boy is walking in repentance.
Steve allegedly said that his son was “the most repentant man he had ever seen in 30 years of pastoring.” (See previous post.) “Voila!” Brock was walking in repentance! This is after years of boozing, cruising (porn sites) and abusing his wife. Just like that, Brock has been healed!
Brock’s wife, however, was disobeying the authority of the elders and Papa Steve when she filed for divorce. They said she must remain married to the abuser because, although he allegedly almost shot her, he is now a good boy. Daddy said so. Hallelujah and pass the pretzels-the meeting is adjourned.
Let’s go over what Steve Estes and his men did to his allegedly (for the lawyers) abused (I believe her) daughter-in-law.
1. When she wouldn’t return to the marriage, fearing for her life, they excommunicated her. Not only that, but they declared her:
- not a Christian
- turned over to Satan
2. What did they say about Brock, the allegedly abusive (I believe he was) son?
Daddy Steve declared him the most repentant man he had ever seen in 30 years! No bias there…
Note: In this statement, Daddy Steve did not deny what his boy did…
What is the problem with Daddy Steve’s responses?
- It is readily admitted, even amongst many in the Neo Calvinist circles, that a woman can leave a marriage when her life is in danger. Good night! This poor woman even endured the exacting and ridiculous John Piper code of enduring abuse for one night. This abusive behavior happened over many, many nights.
- Domestic abuse is a crime and should be reported to the police.
- Daddy gets to judge his son.
- Estes’ theology is whacked. A woman who flees an abuser does not become *a non-Christian.* (perseverance of the saints and all the jazz for the Calvinists amongst us.) This is precisely the problem with the 9 Marx discipline theology that has invaded the church. According to their thinking, Daddy Steve can theologically discipline his daughter by now declaring she is not a Christian because he has the authority. But his son is awesome!
- Repentance does not imply safety. From our post Anatomy of Evangelical Scandals: Steve Estes, Ken Ramey, Tullian Tchvidjian and the Misunderstanding of Repentance
Analysis: A man, with a violence problem with a long time addiction to alcohol and porn, may be sad he is caught but he is still a dangerous man. Even if he is the most repentant man on earth, he will need years of counseling and observation to be sure that he is no longer violent and abusing porn
I contacted WTS for a statement re: Steve Estes remaining on faculty.
You can read about the lack of response in our post-Westminster Seminary (PA) Remains Mum on Whether Battered Wives Should be Excommunicated When Leaving Abusive Spouses. Of course, they didn’t answer.
The EFCA intervenes.
The EFCA denomination held an investigation.
Here is an excerpt from Eagle’s post-Community Evangelical Free Church Wants to Separate from the Evangelical Free Church of America. (All following excerpts are from this post.)
According to multiple sources in Elverson its my understanding that the EFCA put together a fact finding committee that consisted of 5 people to look into the situation with Steve Estes church. This committee met with former members of Community Evangelical Free Church. Then they met with Brock Estes and finally Steve Estes and the Elverson church Elders. This fact finding committee met with the leadership of Community Evangelical Free multiple times in trying to understand what happened.
The EFCA also apologized to Hurit and her family while working diligently to correct this sad situation.
In the process it is also my understanding that Eddie Cole humbly approached the family of Hurit and apologized for what happened. What would happen over the year is that Eddie Cole, Greg Strand and the EFCA poured a lot of time, money and effort in trying to fix this situation. I will go into more detail below but the communities of Elverson and Morgantown should know that the EFCA worked hard in trying to fix the situation.
The EFCA allegedly determined that Steve Estes and CEFC were in the wrong and offered recommendations on how to rectify this situation.
It is my belief that the EFCA after investigating the situation determined that Steve Estes church is in the wrong. And that the practice of church discipline on an alleged rape victim was inconsistent with the values of the EFCA. A list of about 14 recommendations were presented to the leadership of Steve Estes church. One of them was for the church to hold a repentance service in the community of Elverson. The EFCA wanted Steve Estes church to hold a repentance service that would be open to former CEFC members, Hurit’s family, and the community. Both Eddie Cole and Greg Strand realized how controversial this church discipline became and how the fabric of the community was being torn. They allegedly wanted a repentance service to take place so that the community of Elverson and Morgantown can heal, and that the community can find peace.
The church held a business meeting and decided to rescind Hurit’s excommunication but not apologize for what they did.
During the meeting, Estes allegedly claimed the church had to take a hardball stance on divorce. (Such a big manly man, dudebro response.)
Then the following occurred.
On Monday December 6, 2016 Doug Mountiz showed up at Hurit’s house at 7:30 in the morning and dropped off a letter addressed to Hurit. This one page letter was incredibly cold from my understanding. In that letter Community Evangelical Free said that over two years had passed since Hurit was placed under church discipline. It said that the case of church discipline was complicated due to family connections in the church. The goal of rescinding the excommunication of Hurit was to help preserve the church which was being torn apart in two.
The letter did not apologize to Hurit or her family for what Steve Estes church did. Instead they were releasing Hurit from church discipline in order to preserve the church. The church refused to admit that is was wrong. Its also my understanding that the Community Evangelical Free church still believes that Hurit did not have Biblical grounds for divorce. Also the letter from what I heard declared that that there would be no formal service of restoration.
This action allegedly blindsided the national leadership.
This letter combined with the business meeting revealed that Steve Estes church had jumped the gun. This was done without the knowledge of the EFCA leadership in Minneapolis, or the Eastern District. Allegedly when the EFCA leadership in Minneapolis saw the letter that Doug Mountiz dropped off they were horrified. This letter I believe led to increased tension between Community Evangelical Free Church in Elverson and the national EFCA denomination. The EFCA was uninvited by Community(CEFC-ed) leadership and were blindsided and its my understanding that they were surprised that Elverson behaved this way. With that it was realized that this is an Elder Ruled church and not an Elder Led, which is how the EFCA operates.
It appears probable that Steve Estes and CEFC will leave the EFCA and become a rogue congregation.
There is another problem as well as since Community Evangelical Free Elverson and the EFCA are eventually parting ways. This church was incorporated in the 1970’s as a part of the EFCA denomination through the Eastern District. This church in all likelihood is going to have to reincorporate their property, name, business materials, etc… That is not going to be cheap. But since they want to break away from the denomination they are going to be required to do it.
What I predict is going to happen is that at the next business meeting Steve Estes is going to go before those who remain and say that Elverson no longer wants to be a part of the EFCA. Its my belief that Steve and the leadership will manufacture some reason to try and say, “we need to break away.”
Steve Estes may no longer be a certified pastor in the EFCA.
(Dee now: this was never verified)
…Westminster Theological Seminary has a problem. Steve Estes teaches Practical Theology (Can you imagine?)
This seminary adheres to strict Reformed teaching. Within that theology, churches are subject to a denominational hierarchy if they belong to an approved denomination. Is this an example that the seminary wants to role model for their students? If Estes is permitted to teach at the seminary, then it appears that WTS silently condones:
- Church discipline for abused women
- Excommunication for abused women whose lives have been threatened
- Church pastors who thumb their noses at their denominational leadership.
- Guys who may no longer be pastors in their denomination.
If Estes continues to teach, you can be sure that we will see more church discipline for abused women while the abuser “repents” and goes on his merry way. Be sure to ask any graduate pastor from WTS how they would handle this sort of situation. If they agree with *the Estes approach,* women should get out of that church.
End Original Post
Estes got the church away from ECFA, maybe just in time. They may have been contemplating removing his credentials. He moved the church in a decidedly Reformed direction. Are you confused? Here is a 5-minute history of the church, which brushes over the change from the Community Evangelical Free Church to Brick Lane Community Church. Folks, when you are contemplating joining a church, and you see a church video like this that doesn’t explain what happened, be on your guard. This video screams, “Something happened, and they don’t want you to know because it was kind of yucky!”
When joining a church, always check to see if they have ministry partners. These are listed on Brick Lane’s website. As you will see, this church is associated with 9Marks (fondly known as 9Marx) and The Gospel Coalition, amongst others. I wonder how 9Marx feels about the discipline of an abused woman by Steve Estes. Johnathan Leeman attempts to present a kinder, gentler discipline process, but why do these types of discipline abuses (in my opinion) always seem tied to pastors who follow in their footsteps?
I have not forgotten the harsh discipline that Steve Estes imposed on his abused former daughter-in-law. I wonder if Brock, Estes’ son, is still the most repentant man he knows. If so, have they apologized to her? Is she forgotten at the new and improved Brick Lane Community Church?
And why in the world did Estes get an honorary doctorate? He should have gotten a kick in the pants. But #This is Westminster. Some things never change.
PS I left a message at Westminster requesting a statement. if I receive one, I’ll print it. They didn’t respond in 2017. I don’t expect them to respond in 2023.
“Give honor to whom honor is due” (Romans 13:7)
This is what happens when church authority rests in the hands of men and not Jesus. Jesus has almost no authority and influence in certain corners of the American church. Anything can happen and it does.
‘turned over to Satan’
Not sure how to put this and don’t want to offend anyone, but if the ex-wife is supposedly turned over to Satan, can they not see they’re really saying Satan is the good guy?
(Happy indictment week to those who observe it btw).
“Westminster Theological Seminary Ignores Abuse and Gives Steve Estes an Honorary Doctorate…For What Exactly?”
‘Cuz enough men – especially religious men, religious men leaders in particular – don’t care a whit. It’s exactly as Carter said in his TED talk: https://www.ted.com/talks/jimmy_carter_why_i_believe_the_mistreatment_of_women_is_the_number_one_human_rights_abuse?language=en
“With his signature resolve, former US President Jimmy Carter dives into three unexpected reasons why the mistreatment of women and girls continues in so many manifestations in so many parts of the world, both developed and developing. The final reason he gives? ‘In general, men don’t give a damn.'”
For being a Good Little Party Member.
How many male leaders, so-called “Godly men”, in how many different Christian faiths have proven this to be true, over and over?
Authoritarian complementarian church patriarchies are the sickest societies on the planet. They are mean-spirited and unloving.
The org, the hierarchical misogynistic org. It’s all about the org that creates and maintains thug male power. Might as well be kissing the ring of the Donn, Vito Corleone. Apparently the wife didn’t aspire to be a moll.
Thugs. Church folks pay their dues to support this racket. Donations. False teaching. Thug leaders. Wage-earning donors holding up the whole operation. It’s all held together with false teaching by thug leaders + their groupie donors. Possible and permissible courtesy of our free society. Everyone here chooses their part then plays their role. The donors are being played upon, but they volunteer for this. They are being lead, but they follow.
This can end. But then people would have to resist following. The mob would have to get behind Jesus instead of Barabbas. That didn’t happen in Jesus’ day.
Sadly, some top church leaders also dismiss male victims of female-perpetrated abuse. Listen to Paul’s story here for a church-based account from a husband abused by his wife. https://mankind.org.uk/survivors-stories/
“drew a gun on his wife and, on another occasion, put her in a choke hold so strong that she almost passed out”
Horrifying. Statistically a victim of domestic abuse who is choked is much more likely to eventually be murdered by the perpetrator. And of course the presence of a firearm is a huge red flag also. If clergy are going to try to intervene in such matters, they need at least a basic understanding of how to assess the risk to the victim. Of course, that assumes they prioritize the victim’s safety at all.
“But when they said, “Give us a king to lead us,” this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the Lord. And the Lord told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king.” (1 Samuel 8)
“The prophets prophesy falsely, And the priests rule on their own authority; And My people love to have it so!” (Jeremiah 5:31)
“He gave them exactly what they asked for — but along with it they got an empty heart.” (Psalm 106:15)
Mr. Estes wrote (co-authored with Joni Eareckson Tada) a well-regarded book on suffering titled “When God Weeps”. But that was decades ago and it is not mentioned in the linked announcement.
WTS is confessionally Reformed (it was founded around the same time as and I believe by basically the same people as those who founded the OPC) and I can’t imagine that they approve of the independent character of his congregation. Whatever one thinks of Reformed theology, Presbyterian polity is admirable for the checks and balances and opportunities to appeal to higher levels of accountability (Session, Presbytery, General Assembly) to address injustices that it provides.
So this is kind a puzzling thing.
ex-wife is supposedly turned over to Satan,
John Berry,
I think they have it backwards.
When a “Christian” church, an organization, and a well known seminary (at least by default) protect a husband who repeatedly abused his wife and threatened to take her life and condemn the wife to “Satan”…. And bestow an undeserved (I believe) honor on the man who condemned the wife…..
….. something is seriously wrong with them. Abuse victims who don’t just suck it up and take it are evil in the eyes of God?
I wonder if the outcome would have been the same if the roles were reversed. If she had been threatening and abusing him, would they have turned him over to Satan?
Or, what if the victim had not been a woman but a teenage boy…….What then?
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
Under whose influence are abusers? Who do you reckon abusers have been turned over to?
Which group would Jesus be most concerned about? Those who abuse or those who have been abused?
Is Jesus near the broken-hearted or those who break hearts?
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
Turned over to Satan huh?
Don’t those guys realize that it’s just a figure of speech?
I seriously doubt that the devil is or ever was an employee of Paul.
I hope that woman realizes that those guys are off the train tracks and into the weeds.
They would have probably convened a witchcraft trial.
Those men would still burn witches if they could.
Oh yeah! Some of these characters would imprison, torture, exile, and enslave if you turned the clock back. As it is, they still have the opportunity to abuse through the beauty of complementarity and shun/excommunicate dissenters. It’s a lovely religious expression (with Jesus having nothing to do with it).
“Over the years, I have treated many people who have carried out offenses that are very disturbing. … What happens to the person who commits a crime over a hugely long period of time without getting caught? I would say that they’re actually triumphant at getting away with it. That there is something terribly exciting about being able to pull the wool over people’s eyes, to be able to deceive people. It fuels the sense of triumphalism. The omnipotence.”
– Corine Minne, Forensic Psychotherapist, interviewed for “Jimmy Savile: A British Horror Story” (The man who groomed a nation, from the top down.)
Indeed.
Apparently, there are a lot of excited religious leaders in America today. They keep popping up on TWW and elsewhere in the blogosphere.
I am complimentarian and reformed. That being said, there is one thing a man deserves if he physically attacks a woman or child (or bullies anyone for that matter). It involves a bigger man taking him outside to a secluded place.
I know, it is illegal and we cannot resort to what we see in action movies. The law is the law.
But Jesus will not be so gentle with such a man on that day.
George,
“For most of the 20th Century, it was easy for a rich, powerful, well-known person to get away with some really quite terrible stuff. But the reason for that was that the only forum in which those allegations could be aired was the mainstream media. …[However, in the 21st Century] there is no gatekeeping online.” – Mark Lawson, BBC journalist, interviewed for “Jimmy Savile: A British Horror Story”.
(It was then online, outside the mainstream media, that this formerly immensely popular British guy was outed as a pedophile; the testimonies were the #1 postings on some popular websites, open forums for commenters. The pedo had been active, popular, and in the public eye for over 50 years, living a double life.)
“There is no gatekeeping online.”
Or, maybe it’s just a different type of gatekeeping, where regular folk communicate with each other about everyday life. Even in the sticks. Or, even where no one is looking. Or, even when there are no big bucks involved. Little people get a place at the table. Little people can talk.
Like a conjure-man/Hexen siccing his familiar spirit on an enemy.
Like a conjure-man/Hexen siccing his familiar spirit on an enemy.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
I’d say that’s just about what Estes did.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
That’s what the self-styled “moral majority” (still big over here) and Acts 29 did with their ESS and their worm theology and their salaciousness. Only their enemy was the whole nation.
I met a traumatised BBC (studio) cameraman.
JS “cultivated” close relationships with RCC and other denominational leaders.
Around the same time that was when the main denominations stopped teaching saying prayers, in the name of evangelisation by attraction / trendiness as false reaction to previously sincere vacuousness.
That’s when politicians invaded my school with their leading questions (in “civics” lesson) implying that children’s private life outside marriage is open to their prurience (instead of discretion of chosen friends and family, and of course normal authorities on premises but only if applicable).
Off topic, but here’s another one:
https://www.baptistpress.com/resource-library/news/louisiana-associational-mission-strategist-arrested-on-sex-crime-charges/
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
A wolf in “AMS” clothing … might be more common than we want to think in SBC life. Those were formerly called “Director of Missions” during my SBC days, assigned to associational networks of SBC churches across the country.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
“Judgment has begun at the House of God … what will the outcome be?” (1 Peter 4:17)
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
I swear those guys are straight out of a Quentin Tarantino black comedy.
“Associational Mission Strategist” -BUZZWORD BINGO!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyV_UG60dD4
The best “Moral Majority” song was a novelty song from the Eighties which was killed by Falwell’s lawyers and thus never made it online. (Title searches bring up several songe with the same name, most of them screamo punk, and one obscure TV news coverage from Lynchburg how Falwell’s lawyers were out for heathen blood).
Here’s what I remember of it, 40 years later:
The lyrics began with “We’re sharpening our Bibles / We’re coming to your town…”; each verse ended with a two-line refrain of “We’re the Moral Majority / The Bible Tells Us So”.
Only verse I remember, from near the end:
“..And after we’re finished with the gays
We’re staring on the Jews!
“We’re the… Moral Majority!
(They killed Christ, you know!)
We’re the Moral Majority!
The Bible Tells Us So!”
And the entire last verse of the song was a recited litany of Republican Party talking points/buzzwords of the time ending with a loud “BECAUSE THE BIBLE TELLS US SO!”
“Stagg is charged with three counts each of first-degree rape, oral sexual battery, aggravated crimes against nature and indecent behavior with juveniles. He was arrested June 8 and is being held in the Grant Parish Detention Center in Colfax on $500,000 bond, the sheriff’s office reported.
“Stagg, a 60-year-old resident of Pollock, has served since 2018 as AMS for the Big Creek Baptist Association in Dry Prong and the CenLa Association in Alexandria. THE ALLEGED CRIMES INVOLVED YOUNG CHILDREN, KALB-TV reported.”
SBC’s “Associational Mission Strategists” (AMS) have access to multiple churches in the associations they are assigned to. They are among the most respected and trusted Southern Baptist leaders in an area … thus, an open door for a pedophile. Most AMS are God-fearing servants of God … others, as in this case, don’t fear God at all.
Perk & Privilege of Rank.
Well, they found their Hunting Ground. They being the pedophiles among the higher rankings of the SBC.
If a family friendly org doesn’t deal with the pedos in their org, there will be pedos using their org as their hunting ground. Churches are target rich for pedophiles.
Deal with it, or feed children to the embedded wolves.
In this latest case, as in all of the church-related cases, rank and file wage-earning donors are funding a pedophile and his pedophilia in their churches.
Donors funding the violation of children. In the name of God.
Daryl Stagg was previously in Missouri, with the Harmony Baptist Association (Sedalia, Mo.), according to the book he put out on…discipleship.
https://www.baptistmessage.com/stagg-to-serve-big-creek-cenla-associations-as-director-of-missions/
(2018)
“A long-time Louisiana Baptist pastor who moved out of state in 1996 has returned…Daryl Stagg, who is a native of Tioga, has served in the Midwest for the last two decades, but he said the allure of coming back to Louisiana proved too enticing to ignore”.
“he was a summer missionary in Bangladesh…pastor of the Bayou des Glaises Baptist Church in Moreauville, Fellowship Baptist Church in Converse, First Baptist Church in Calhoun [all in Louisiana], and Fellowship Baptist Church in Kenosha, Wisconsin…director of missions for the Lake County Baptist Association in Waukegan, Illinois, and later for the Harmony Baptist Association in Sedalia, Missouri. He also served as a church planter in St. Cloud, Minnesota”.
Now, that creeps me out.
Max,
I shudder to think how many possible victims there could be throughout his long ‘ministry’. He didn’t just wake up at 60 years old and become a pedophile
The SBC sex abusers list keeps growing. Surely … surely … one or more ministry peers knew or suspected this. And that bothers me, knowing that children could have been protected during his tenure as a wolf in shepherd’s clothing.
FreshGrace,
Max,
Aside from being a “summer missionary”, he worked in 5 different states and had 7 different jobs in twenty years….. averaged out, that’s a fairly short lifespan for each job.
I wonder how many places just helped him slip out the back door.
Hard to believe that someone didn’t know this about Brother Daryl along the way … and said nothing.
The children, his victims, knew. Did anyone listen? No, obviously.
Jimmy Savile groomed an entire nation, including statesmen (and women – Margaret Thatcher had him knighted), clergy, and the press (including the BBC). His cover? He raised $$$ for charity. His victims? The underprivileged/underrepresented child recipients of his charity. Exactly like Pete Newman of Camp Kanakuk, Penn State’s Jerry Sandusky with his Second Mile charity, etc.
Wondering if this is connected to Thomas Chantry et al, also in Wisconsin, but that was Hales Corner, WI.
I’m originally from Racine.
Just up the road a piece.
And when there’s safe easy prey, The Predators Will Swarm. FEEDING FRENZY!
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Talk of good morals is excellent as long as it comes from bunches of diverse people of deep prayer to the Almighty for providence for us and a respectful view of humanity not seeing us as counters to be pushed around
Headless Unicorn Guy,
God cherishes willing agnostics who could continue the benefits of “christian civilisation” (an incidental, not essential, but somewhat real description) from non-sectarian motives.
But self-taught bigots who won’t support agnostics have deprived those agnostics of some chances to bear fruit that way, who are thence liable to be picked off by the bigots’ covert twins in manoeuvring, faux “pragmatic” antihumanists / nihilists.
The bigots will be asked the sternest questions the other side. But meantime, they wear a bland, “tolerant” face as they write off honesty and will never miss a beat “delivering”.
Off Topic:
I picked the following The Roys Report post, With Turning Point Faith, Pastors Use Politics As A Church-Growth Strategy, off Dee’s Twitter….
https://julieroys.com/turning-point-faith-pastors-use-politics-church-growth-strategy/
Dee’s written about Turning Point USA before….and they’re successfully infiltrating churches, and they’ve started an academy….I assume the academy is successfully brainwashing it’s students.
American pastors have used every trick in the book to grow churches for the last 50 years … except preach the Gospel (the real one) … IMHO. In the absence of the anointing, you have to use gimmicks to get people to church. Being woke or wearing a red cap will not build the Kingdom of God.
Which is why it’s in the news every. single. day.
There is something fundamentally radically (at the root) wrong.
Like maybe: it’s men running the show on behalf of men, including male predators, they’ve all got each others’ backs and even the “good guys” don’t give a d*mn, as Carter said in his TED talk, cuz the predation doesn’t touch them and the women and kids can just take it for the team – it’s all about these guys running the show for the team.
For example, in the year 2000, one grand old denom made some grand decisions to make sure this grand legacy continues.
Until enough normal donor folks interrupt/disrupt this legacy and STOP business as usual, it just goes on and on. Even the so-called independent investigations are just designed to keep the org going, the money flowing, and the powerbrokers knowing, that the org stays intact, as is, no matter what.
In the end, an org is only as righteous as its most vile embedded hidden monster predator.
There seem to be enough of these vile embedded hidden monster predators in church orgs:
1. to daily keep the news cycles’ front page headlines full of their law enforcement orange jumpsuit mugshots, and
2. enough to keep the counseling industry calendars full of damaged clients, church monster victims, as a growth industry.
It only takes one vile embedded hidden monster predator to ruin a child’s life for a long, long time.
It only takes one vile embedded hidden monster predator to make an entire church community horrifically dangerous.
It only takes one booming voice in the room, if it’s the only voice allowed to speak, to cover up the underbelly of a vile embedded hidden monster predator lurking and violating unsuspecting voiceless innocents.
It takes a whole room full of voiceless listener followers to keep this racket intact, going with their attention, flowing with their money, and with their unknowing what lies beneath as the vile embedded hidden monster predator stalks prey and the ONE voice in the room keeps the org racket intact, business as usual.
Jesus has nothing to do with this. It’s the other guy running this racket. In the end, an org is only as righteous as its most vile embedded hidden monster predator, in which case, God the Father and Jesus His son, as well as the Holy Spirit with His gifts, are absent from this org. It is never the Body of Christ.
What to look for in a church community: the Body of Christ with God the Father, Jesus His son, and the Holy Spirit with His gifts given to the Body of Christ – gifts we do not pay for. (A church may pay for an accountant or a caterer, but should never be paying for the 18 gifts of the Holy Spirit because these are gifts.)
Amen! The American church is not receiving the gifts offered to it because it has chosen to follow men, not Christ. What good is a gift if it’s not received?
Michael in UK,
I can tell you something about being “counters to be pushed about”.
I’m a survivor of The Gospel According to Hal Lindsay and what’s now called Christian Zionism. Though back then I coined a different name for it: “Anti-Semitic Zionism”.
Goes like this: The Jews are In The Land, Fulfilling End Times Prophecy and starting God’s Countdown Clock to Armageddon (tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick…) This is GOD’s Will and Plan (tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick), Israel Can Do No Wrong and any criticism of them (or anything about the situation) is Rebellion Against GOD. But they’re still Christ-killers who GOD will “Judge” (SMITE! SMITE! SMITE!) when He Comes in Glory at Armageddon.
Result: The Israelis, the Palestinians, the Jews, the Muslims, the USA, Russia, China, you, me – only counters to be pushed about on the End Times Prophecy gameboard, NOTHING MORE.
IMO, the fingerprints of God are not on much of the institutional church in America, the Christian Industrial Complex … and certainly nothing to do with the Jesus racket and its racketeers. “And My people love it so.”
Max,
researcher,
Ava, Max, researcher,
The corollary to phenomena of this sort is that lifetime pew goers who long for the simplicity of old time supplication and fullness of beliefs – in place of the contemporary deprivation from any prayers coupled with over-complicated dumbing down – risk getting painted as needing to be denounced to political authorities for being “out of line”.
Once, pastors didn’t think of interfering if anyone hosted prayers with neighbours (that was where good ecumenism happened). We had a God Who listened to us then. Why has He changed? I’m saying more Glory Be’s for our countries.
(The company boss, Kirk, had contracted with the heir of Manifest Destiny segregation sour grapes. He doesn’t hesitate to hijack issues and personalities sacred and secular to harm them.)
God hasn’t changed, pastors have. Many want to control your every move, rather than allowing you to follow the Holy Spirit’s leading. Thus, prayer groups with neighbors and having home Bible studies outside the jurisdiction of the pulpit are no longer encouraged. It’s tough being free in Christ when the pulpit wants to put you in bondage.
Monday update on Daryl Stagg, “Police have also extended their investigation to include Kenosha, Wis.”
https://www.baptistpress.com/resource-library/news/police-add-additional-abuse-charges-against-louisiana-associational-mission-strategist/
“Officials would not say why they extended their investigation to Kenosha”
[and Baptist Press won’t either? He was a pastor there! Why won’t Baptist Press say so?]
Daryl Stagg with the Missouri Baptist Convention ‘ministering’ at the Missouri State Fair in 2012:
https://www.facebook.com/mobaptist/photos/a.469596536399281/519306661428268/
1 – I think the motive is partly anxiety about the ordinary christians being ecumenical and them not.
2 – I think that if strange relating occurs at those homes there should be scope to consult clear headed, responsible minded and very prayerful but not controlling individuals just the same as you would hope among any bunch of neighbours.
Firmness over the format and good briefing on alert discernment to deter casual unsavouriness combined with tactful support at nearby churches, will need to be part of the mix. Some caution is reaction to past hair raising hare brainedness while hosts, home leaders or denominational support officers didn’t understand.
At denominational youth occurrences I knew, some of them in church halls, the regional coordinator got the sack after his hand was caught in the till but there had been chaos in his fiefdom for some years, including a visiting speaker taunting the young about their emotions.
At another series of happenings partly based in homes, regular visiting speakers taunted people of adult age about their emotions. The best ones I recall where were we had most control over our format and fewest connections not known to us as equals.