Pete Wilson* aka NOT the politician from California. That guy is a former governor, US Senator, Mayor of San Diego, and state representative. Not the same guy. This Pete Wilson is a pastor with a PAST.

dee: your continuing effort to dog Dustin Boles

Sic ’em Pugs!

Dee..
Your giving away your age linking to the “Miami sound machine”!

Will it be considered persecution when the secular entertainment industry starts writing sitcoms themed on these reinventions? It seems like an under-exploited niche and there is loads of material.

Samuel Conner: Will it be considered persecution when the secular entertainment industry starts writing sitcoms themed on these reinventions? It seems like an under-exploited niche and there is loads of material.

“Pastors with a Past” on Netflix
“The Whole Evangelical Circus” on Amazon
“Hipsters of the Church” on Hulu
“The Redemption Express” on Disney
…

Brad and Pete are a match made, not in heaven, but in a Mitchell’s Hair salon.

Brian,

This is an interesting question. It reminds one of the “revolving door” between the national legislature and the lobbying industry, and other examples can be found (MIC, for example).

I think one could credibly argue that this is a manifestation of the philosophy that “unfettered markets” are the solution to all problems — the mega- movement is a kind of “market” for “buns on benches”. Unfortunately, IMO is has a Gresham’s dynamic effect that bad religion drives out good.

dee,

Several years ago at a high school grad party for my son, they played a sound track which had song popular during my later high school years….. I thought I was in a time warp…..until I looked in the mirror

ishy,

Samuel Conner’s question on a possible TV program being germinated out of the megachurch pastors life styles and what you are reporting here has sort of come to the same point. The current program called “Greenleaf”. It’s about a pastor of a megachurch and his family, their unscrupulous daily lives.

Burwell Stark,

I thought something similar……. but just hair, the whole “image thing”…

Jeffrey Chalmers,

They’re using photographers that operate at a professional level, in terms of quality, not in the sense of their paid or not.

Pete’s watchband matches his trousers. Looking at other photos of Pete from some of Dee’s past post, all the photographs are staged, not spontaneous. The photograph in this post doesn’t look like the photographer just bumped into them.

drstevej: Sic ’em Pugs!

Woof!

Brian: Pete’s watchband matches his trousers.

“Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher. “Vanity of vanities! All that is done without God’s guidance is vanity, futile, meaningless — a wisp of smoke, a vapor that vanishes, merely chasing the wind.” (Ecclesiastes 1:2 AMP)

Samuel Conner: Will it be considered persecution when the secular entertainment industry starts writing sitcoms themed on these reinventions? It seems like an under-exploited niche and there is loads of material.

HBO has a series on now called “The Righteous Gemstones.” It’s described as a comedy about a famous but dysfunctional family of American televangelists. John Goodman is the father. If I had endless money and time, I’d sign up for HBO to watch this, just because I love watching John Goodman.

But still! There is room for all sorts of comedy, dramedy, murder mysteries, etc., set in the Evangelical sphere.

dee: The Wartburg Watch’ refers to your relentless search for other peoples’ warts

The overarching culture of compliance in much of Christianity is a root cause.
There will be no change because compliance was built in from the beginning.
These guys will always find followers and earn a lot of money.
Information is the only weapon that works and that’s a mitigation not a cure.
Hopefully this keeps at least some people out of the morass of toxic faith and assists others to get out.
Ultimately I found faith too toxic. It took a long time to deprogam, Christian thought still has a strong hold on me.
I may never be completely free.

Brian: Samuel Conner’s question on a possible TV program being germinated out of the megachurch pastors life styles and what you are reporting here has sort of come to the same point. The current program called “Greenleaf”. It’s about a pastor of a megachurch and his family, their unscrupulous daily lives.

That occurred to me, too. There’s also a new one coming out on HBO that’s more of a comedy called The Righteous Gemstones: https://www.christianpost.com/news/hbo-releases-trailer-for-new-televangelist-comedy-series-the-righteous-gemstones.html

Brian: They’re using photographers that operate at a professional level, in terms of quality, not in the sense of their paid or not.

I think that’s true with almost everything at megas nowadays. Secular musicians are hired to lead worship. Professional sound and video teams. And of course, “professional” pastors who have been chosen not for their character, but for their charisma and ability to attract large crowds.

ishy,

There’s no bizz like the Jesus bizz.

elastigirl: heretic is a badge of honor, really.

I first read this as “hectic is a badge of honor” and thought how well it applies to my life. But then I read it the right way and got the same conclusion.

Muff Potter: There’s no bizz like the Jesus bizz.

Judgement Day will not be kind to those who merchandise the Gospel.

Friend: “I’d encourage everyone to take a breath, think about baseball and relax.” —R. C. Sproul, Jr., on day one of a job that lasted two days

How PRECIOUS(TM)…

(Wasn’t this the ManaGAWD that held keggers with underage kids to justify his own drinking? AKA “Everybody’s Doing It!”?)

Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Pete Wilson* aka NOT the politician from California. That guy is a former governor, US Senator, Mayor of San Diego, and state representative. Not the same guy.

That’s the first thing that occurred to me, too.

When we moved I must confess we pretty much ruled out any church that advertised itself as “not full of perfect people” or “a hospital for sick souls” or “for those that don’t have their act altogether since we don’t either.”

Do not misunderstand. I am in a confessional church that begins all services confessing our sins. I do not claim perfection.

But I DO believe a healthy church calls us to repent of sin, and while of course we never get that perfect or become totally perfect, a healthy church does blamed well expect us to bring forth fruit meet for repentance.

While they are calvie or so I understand, I do think maybe MacArthur, Way of the Master, and Spurgeon come closer to the truth on that one issue than the “no repentance required” sort. Free grace yes yes yes but it has gotten so distorted now free grace teachers openly teach that requiring any repentance for sin for salvation is a heresy that insults Jesus and makes His death on the cross null and void, since now there is NO sin not already paid for, and only belief Jesus is God is required.

Wasn’t there a Bible verse about that? Something about trembling demons?

My recollection is Luther, Wesley, Calvin, Spurgeon, Tozer, Jernigan, Uncle Bud Robinson, Adam Clark, and a whole raft of preacher/teachers of various systematic theologies held repentance for sin was part of salvation. Not the requirement to clean up your act to be saved, but the deep knowledge you were sinful, fear and dread of its penalty and its bondage, and at least a desire to turn and go the other way.

Of course, that blows the whole self esteem movement out of the water and takes me off the throne of the universe, so guess we ditched that one, huh?

Brian,

Pure marketing of a product.

Samuel Conner: who stumble are less likely to put themselves forward in the future; they recognize that they may not be best examples to the flock

A good sign that they have repentant hearts. On the other hand, the cast of characters that we have been addressing on TWW have not demonstrated that … they have unashamedly launched unrepentant comebacks.

Jeffrey Chalmers: forgiveness has Nothing to do with qualifications to be a “preacher”……

Just as forgiveness has nothing to do with restoring a fallen “pastor” to ministry. Forgive a pastor who has disqualified himself from ministry “if” he genuinely repents? Certainly. Restore him to the Body of Christ “if” he demonstrates a changed/renewed heart? Certainly. Restore him to the ministry? No. He forfeited that sacred office. There are no examples in the New Testament of pastors who failed morally being restored to their pulpits. Folks usually pull out David as an example of restoration … but David was in the military, not the ministry.

Tool used in the Houston Chronicle exposé has been yanked off the SBC website?

Southern Baptist ministers directory suddenly ‘gone’ from the denomination’s website, happened sometime in the last 48 hours.

cached:
https://web.archive.org/web/20190519231646/http://www.sbc.net/ministersearch/

Muff Potter,

“Jesus of Nazareth.
I trust in his very literal body and blood.
And in nothing more.

t-shirt: Heretic For Jesus.

Now that would really get some blowback!
Can you imagine the looks from both atheists and fundagelicals?”
+++++++++++++++

i much prefer “Jesus of Nazareth” to Jesus Christ. The former gets Jesus out of the stained glass window and right alongside me. and i love the fact that Jesus is human, just like me. our hands match. (like the scene in Disney’s animated feature, Tarzan). I don’t need the Christ part to remind me he’s also God.

what are the practical applications for you in trusting in his literal body and blood?

a lifetime in this religion and i still struggle with how abstract some things are. i loathe pretending they’re not. singing touchy feeling songs about it all, when it’s just so…. abstract. far from being accessible and in touch with.

the t-shirt…. if i make it, i’ll take orders. first 10 customers get free shipping.

for more discreet customers, i’ll make the coffee mug.

elastigirl: so you’d wear the t-shirt, then?

Where do I sign up?

Jerome: Tool used in the Houston Chronicle exposé has been yanked off the SBC website?

Southern Baptist ministers directory suddenly ‘gone’ from the denomination’s website, happened sometime in the last 48 hours.

A pared-down SBC church directory remains (all names of church staff have apparently been purged from the listings).

ishy,

I’ll give a recent example. I went to one of the two local megas a couple months ago. Typical skinny jean pastor and contemporary music from a professional band. It is a bit charismatic, not Baptist, but much more mega in feel than charismatic.

The service was 2 hours long, a fact which I did not realize when I visited. The sermon was an hour. His point could have been made well in 5 minutes. He told several stories, then literally repeated his point over and over again the last 30 minutes. He ended at 60 minutes on the dot (I looked back at the clock when he stopped). When I walked out, a woman behind me exclaimed, “That was such an awesome sermon!” I was like ….

He had a charismatic way of speaking that made the sermon seem shorter than an hour, but absolutely nothing else. And people in that church didn’t seem to question that at all.

Max: A new breed of preacher has hit the pulpit with $$$ in mind, rather than souls.

Fortunately not everywhere. Yes, we need to combat the bad, but there are still good preachers out there if people want to go to church. (Pro tip: avoid fog machines, whether they are electric or wearing skinny jeans.)

Friend: there are still good preachers out there if people want to go to church

Yes and Praise God for that!! We focus on the bad-boys at TWW; the good guys still outnumber them. I live in a rural area. There are godly preachers here who pastor small churches – they don’t have “mega” in mind, they love their congregations, know the names of their children and their dogs, cry with them and rejoice with them, marry them and bury them, they teach them about Jesus, often ministering on a small salary and working other jobs through the week to make ends meet. On Judgement Day, they will be first, while some of the mega-boys will be last.

Max: There are godly preachers here who pastor small churches – they don’t have “mega” in mind, they love their congregations, know the names of their children and their dogs, cry with them and rejoice with them, marry them and bury them, they teach them about Jesus, often ministering on a small salary and working other jobs through the week to make ends meet.

One of the best preachers I’ve ever heard is at a tiny church here. I think a lot of Christians have this idea that big church=good preacher, but I’ve heard a lot of terrible megachurch preachers.

ishy: I think a lot of Christians have this idea that big church = good preacher

… or that big church = good band … or good bookstore … or good espresso … or good entertainment for the kids … etc. A sad chapter in the story about the American church and a sad testimony about the condition of some American Christians. Hopefully, this too will pass. But, I suspect that will only happen when bad times fall on the nation. Believers tend to get real when desperation settles around them … they begin to seek God rather than the teachings of mere men. In the meantime, the beat goes on.

Dee wrote: ‘Also, do the members of this church merely want a guy who can give a *good talk?* There are cheaper ways to do that.’
Why not just have the guy record his speech and put it on the telescreens?
Another guy, Darrin Patrick, made his comeback as “teaching pastor” by commuting from St Louis to Charleston. Maybe he’s moved now— but why bother if you’re just a talking head?

Hope I’m not speaking out of turn here… the post mentions divorce a few times. In case newcomers are unaware, TWW does not automatically condemn divorce. This post cites a concern about infidelity leading to divorce (instead of repentance and reconciliation). Other TWW posts have mentioned that church opposition to divorce is often used against abused women.

I do not believe that divorce should automatically disqualify someone from serving as a pastor. However, every candidate’s character and psychological strength should be assessed in advance. This can be done through a discernment process (a committee that includes ordinary men and women in the congregation), an interview process, a psych evaluation, calling for references, etc.

There should never be a double standard. If Mr. Celebrity Pastor is allowed to divorce and remarry, so should members. I don’t know anyone who has married with the belief that divorce offers an easy escape, nor anyone who divorced on a whim. Churches can nurture lifelong healthy marriage while recognizing that some marriages break down beyond repair, especially in cases of abuse and infidelity.

elastigirl,

t-shirt: “heretic for jesus”
+++++++++++++

maybe it’s just to stir the ideological pot. what fun!

i think that’s reason enough.

Jerome: A pared-down SBC church directory remains (all names of church staff have apparently been purged from the listings).

This would appear to be a move in the opposite direction of Wade Burleson’s proposal for SBC-wide public list of church officers convicted of abuser. Not only will that not be done, but it will be made harder for others to do the research themselves.

The pot must really be bubbling for this much effort to be made to keep the lid on it.

elastigirl: would you wear it to church?

(hmmmm…. honest question – what would be the point of wearing it to church? what is the point of wearing it all?

I’m not the type who puts bumper stickers on my car or wears advertisement t-shirts. And I don’t wear t-shirts to church because the AC is always set to refrigerator mode in the summertime in the south and I don’t have enough of an insulation layer to keep me warm. I would most likely wear it when walking the dog or running errands, and then only to create opportunities for conversation.

elastigirl: i much prefer “Jesus of Nazareth” to Jesus Christ. The former gets Jesus out of the stained glass window and right alongside me. and i love the fact that Jesus is human, just like me. our hands match. (like the scene in Disney’s animated feature, Tarzan). I don’t need the Christ part to remind me he’s also God.

Good point.
We’ve all heard the standard kvetch and moan about Jesus being the only way to God?
I think they’ve got it bass ackwards, I never had to embark on any ‘road’ to God, He came to me, Almighty God himself, literally, in the person of Jesus of Nazareth.

elastigirl: what are the practical applications for you in trusting in his literal body and blood?

Glad you asked.
I firmly and viscerally believe that If I were to receive a blood transfusion from Jesus of Nazareth right now, my whole genome would start repairing itself on a molecular level. No more snarls in the double helix, and all those A, C, G, and T codes working like they’re supposed to, with no corrupted information effin’ up cell division.
And best of all?
A cancelled expiration date for my fleshly existence.

Wild Honey,

Now that I’m thinking about it more, “Good to Great” was one of the books they used. So, yes, along the lines of Napoleon Hill, I think.

Wild Honey,

I’ve read Napoleon Hill’s Keys to Success”. I can’t remember the specifics. They talked about working the crowds as if you were a preacher at a revival meeting; Picking people for your organization based on personality traits; How you dressed; etc.

When the megachurches are discussed here, or if I watch a video of one, I get a weird vibe that they have been incorporating some of his stuff.

ishy: I know the SBC seminaries have a class on “church revitalization”

“Revitalization” is a nice New Calvinist word for taking over a traditional (non-Calvinist) SBC church … similar to “replant.”

Brian: Serious question: Is it common within the megachurch system that a disgraced pastor or deacon go into some marketing firm geared towards megachurch development and planting? Or they try to start their own firm, such as Josh Harris or one of the guys from Harvest Bible Chapel?

It seems to me that at least since Hybels’ WCCC and leadership network much of what is called ‘The Church’ has simply been a sort of MLM scheme. How to build your own ‘Megachurch’ by selling sermons, music and programs.

Thus, we should not be surprised to find what we have found – the church is a den of thieves. The schmucks that wind up as successful ‘pastors’ are simply the most charismatic and narcissistic. This simply is no longer about Jesus, other than using him as the bait for their money grubbing schemes. But that’s just me.

In case you are interested in being better able to spot a sociopath, and I have no doubt that some of those highlighted here including. perhaps, at least one of the men mentioned in this post, then you may want to spend 10 min. watching the following: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsWE_8ZIPQg

Consider this a friendly PSA announcement.

TS00: It seems to me that at least since Hybels’ WCCC and leadership network much of what is called ‘The Church’ has simply been a sort of MLM scheme. How to build your own ‘Megachurch’ by selling sermons, music and programs.

Isn’t “MLM scheme” also called “Pyramid scheme”?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-KWb6JuYp0

Headless Unicorn Guy,

I think that, strictly speaking, “pyramid schemes” are unsustainable frauds that do nothing other than convey $ from later entrants to earlier entrants. That might be an apt characterization of the mega-church movements.

MLM enterprises resemble pyramids in the sense that earlier entrants generally receive more benefits than later entrants, but they generally do provide a product or service. As I understand them, they differ from conventional enterprises that provide similar products or services in that they rely on social contacts to promote the product/service, rather than more conventional marketing approaches. The social structure of the participant marketers does have the “shape” of a pyramid, but the “scheme” is not fraudulent.

TS00,

My interpretation is that as “conventional” forms of Christianity “plateaued” (in US; don’t have much sense of what is going on elsewhere), well-intentioned people looked for ways to continue to “advance the Gospel”. Bill Bright and Billy Graham come to mind. BB found ways to make “the gospel” easier to say and easier to hear (“the Four Laws”) and BG perfected event-based mass evangelism. Both were “angling” for “decisions” more than “disciples”.

(Scot McKnight’s 2012 “getting the Gospel right” talk, linked at a recent WW Sunday post, surveys the history that led to this)

Efficient ways of inducing “decisions” may have made it easier to “scale up” congregations, though probably the “entertainment” character of the meetings is more important.

It’s also hard to imagine the current mega-church “ecosystem” without American automobile-based culture and the transportation infrastructure that supports suburban sprawl.

There are probably penetrating sociological studies of US mega-churchdom out there. I don’t think it can be attributed to a single factor.

I do think that there is in recent decades a similar pattern of what looks to me like failures of leadership (in the sense of leaders serving their own interests rather than the interests of the institutions, and the constituents of those institutions, that they lead [the ‘iron law of institutions’]) across multiple fields of endeavor, business, academia, civil government, and others.

Samuel Conner,

Thinking out loud: Movements, new ways of doing things, start out as spontaneous, people start with the same or similar ideas, end up with someone later getting in front of it and claiming leadership or even authorship.

(Gap in the train of thought.)

I was watching a video of a mega, part of the Assemblies of God. The pastor talked about joining “Life Group” so that a person would have people to pray on their behalf.

Max spoke about Life Groups being used in the SBC. HBC also uses them.

(Mental block)

Samuel Conner: … pattern of what looks to me like failures of leadership (in the sense of leaders serving their own interests …)

There is a spiritual leadership crisis in America, IMO. The pursuit of mega-mania and movement of the month has darn near snuffed out genuine spiritual life in evangelical corners of the American church. If you want to find the real-deal, with faithful godly pastors, you most likely will find it in rural churches where the culturally-relevant craze hasn’t raised its ugly head yet.

Samuel Conner: It’s also hard to imagine the current mega-church “ecosystem” without American automobile-based culture and the transportation infrastructure that supports suburban sprawl.

BIG FACTOR.
Especially in Southern Calif. and Eastward into the Phoenix area of AZ.

ishy: Storyteller? I hesitate to call them storytellers, because usually the stories really didn’t have a lot of meaning.

Many are quite boring as well. You went to seminary to tell me stories about your kids or golf game? Pass.

Brian: The pastor talked about joining “Life Group”

IIRC, this language, “Life Groups”, was used in the ’00s to promote small group meetings in the CMA congregation I was then affiliated with. Perhaps it was the same “curriculum”, or maybe just a borrowed moniker.

Small group ministry became a widespread “thing” decades ago; I’m not sure why but it may have been a way of trying to preserve a sense of interpersonal friendship (as well as individualized ministry) in the context of the inescapable anonymity of large-scale groups. IIRC, small groups were an important part of the “disciple-making” aspect of the ministry of R Schuller’s Crystal Cathedral, an early mega-church.

Tools can be turned to various purposes, depending on the motives of those who employ them. I have the impression (mostly from reading TWW — thankfully did not experience this myself) that in at least some (perhaps in many) of the megas, “small groups” have become an instrument of surveillance and social control of the members, especially in those groups that implement legal membership contracts. That’s an (IMO) insidious bait-and-switch, offering the carrot of interpersonal connection but using it in ways the participants might not consent to if the leaders’ agendas were fully disclosed.

In the CMA congregation in which I experienced a local implementation of small group strategies, it became something of a by-word as the congregational leadership turned this way and that to find a small-group curriculum that would “work”; over a period of about 15 years they cycled through several different approaches. People began to grow weary (at least in my hearing) of the next small group strategy.

My sense is that the leaders were trying to employ pre-packaged systems to accomplish what could only be accomplished by Christ-like self-giving leaders. That might be a useful interpretation of the entire present-day mega-church movement.

Lea: This is beyond parody.

🙂

Samuel Conner: My sense is that the leaders were trying to employ pre-packaged systems to accomplish what could only be accomplished by Christ-like self-giving leaders. That might be a useful interpretation of the entire present-day mega-church movement.

That is pretty much the sense I get at most churches I have tried in the last decade or so. I date myself by recalling when churches were individual entities, reflecting the personalities of the community and congregation as well as the pastor and denomination. Then along came Hybels to systemize, er, seekerize the church into mass entertainment centers.

Few things have been more painful than visiting the ever shrinking rural church of my youth to find them trying to imitate the modern seeker model. The poor old ladies – most of whom I knew – were perplexed and annoyed at the modern songs and words they couldn’t read up on a screen. I just felt sad for everyone. Ah, for a little ‘Victory in Jesus’. It was once my least preferred hymn, but the sweet little old ladies loved to wail on that one!

Samuel Conner,

Revelations 2:12-17.

The church of Pergamos?

Lowlandseer,

Oh, and in between the small group and leaving I was asked to become a small group leader. I turned that down as well.

Lea: Life group is just a trendy name for homegroups.

Yes, it appears to be catching on, replacing “Home Group”, “Bible Group” and “Small Group” of years past. Unfortunately, as has been discussed in the above thread, some churches use “Life Groups” to manipulate, intimidate, and dominate the life out of the pew.

Speaking of the outworking within the north american churchish ecosystem of “iron law of institutions” and leadership self-interest, this item just came into view in one of my preferred daily news aggregators:

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/09/09/jerry-falwell-liberty-university-loans-227914

Note to GBTC: it’s a political news site, but the subject matter of the specific article is the “world-ification” of a major conservative christian educational institution.

Headless Unicorn Guy,

Its my name. I do not comment anonymously and think there is too much of that going around.

On this blog there are times for victims to be shrewd so they will use them. One of the bigger problems on the WWW is that laws have not caught up to reality on the ground. If you walk into a building where there is a debate going on there is no anonymity. So you do not see a lot of trolling, although now in politics you are seeing people going to events just to disrupt them. There is a lot of abuse that goes on over the WWW through trolling. I foresee a time when this will lead to actual violence which will get laws changed. Being a whistle-blower is one thing and being an absolute abusive jerk is something very different. Does any of that answer your question?

I am not famous. Most famous people do not have the time to come and comment in a place like this. Googling me is not going to get you anywhere just the way it ought to be.

Westerner: RC Sproul Jr. has announced on his podcast that he’s working to open a seminary in Fort Wayne that emphasizes character traits in its teaching.

How PRECIOUS(TM).
Is he still going to be hosting those teenage keggers?

Brian: Thinking out loud: Movements, new ways of doing things, start out as spontaneous, people start with the same or similar ideas, end up with someone later getting in front of it and claiming leadership or even authorship.

And each of these movements and ideas and “ways of doing things” has its own life cycle.

Samuel Conner,

I thought Baptist don’t dance. I haven’t completed the article yet. But Trey Farwell, Vice President of Liberty University, is out nightclubbing. I couldn’t find the photo with Jerry Farwell Jr. at the nightclub.

Brian,

The reason I used Pergamos is the following: If they are using stuff from Napoleon Hill, that’s bringing new age practices into the church. NH talked about the “universal mind”, connecting with it. And, he talked about knowledge floating around in the “ether” (the air and space around us), learning how to pull knowledge from it.

Ken F (aka Tweed): Baptists are opposed to pre-marital sex because it could lead to dancing…

Lol!

dee: just because they were really weird.

LOL.

Tullian Tchividjian was the guest on RC Sproul Jr’s podcast today. I learned from him that the days of a “relatively good person” telling other people how to be better are “over.” What’s needed now is someone who can say that he’s the worst sinner you know, and mean it.

Also that Tchividjian rhymes with religion.

westerner,

He’s trying to make an inference to the Apostle Paul. Paul came clean to everyone. TT didn’t.

westerner: What’s needed now is someone who can say that he’s the worst sinner you know, and mean it.

Hell, the chuckling one (Mahaney) claims to be that and an ‘apostle’ too!

westerner: Tullian Tchividjian was the guest on RC Sproul Jr’s podcast today. I learned from him that the days of a “relatively good person” telling other people how to be better are “over.”

Since Tullian gave up trying to be holy, he can’t preach holiness to others. I know a lot of relatively good preachers who still tell other people how to be better in Christ. It would do Tullian good to hang out with those sort of folks rather than the cast of characters who support his unrepentant comebacks … they will always be swimming in shallow water together.

ishy: I’d believe a message more if I knew the person was giving up and sacrificing to give that message rather than hoping for boons from it. That is what makes me so tired of the “Christian celebrity” culture.

There would be no Christian celebrities without pew-sitters dishing out lots of money to celebritize them. No money = no celebrity culture … no Pete Wilson, no Tullian Tchividjian, no Dustin Boles, no Perry Noble, etc. etc.

Max: There would be no Christian celebrities without pew-sitters dishing out lots of money to celebritize them. No money = no celebrity culture … no Pete Wilson, no Tullian Tchividjian, no Dustin Boles, no Perry Noble, etc. etc.

That tells me that they (Christian celebrities) mine most of their support (greenbacks) from folks with disposable income.

It doesn’t follow that the down-strata living from poverty wages, check to check, are bankrolling these guys.

Max: In my area, New Calvinist church plants are funded by young professionals (doctors, lawyers, university professors, etc.) … otherwise smart people who fell for the cultish religious scam.

And have MONEY.
Lot$ and lot$ of MONEY.

The new reformers are out and about to change the next generation of belief and practice by primarily targeting 20s-40s.

“Give me your children and I will make them mine. You will pass away, but they will remain Mine.”
— Adolf Hitler, cult leader

Brian:
Brian,

The reason I used Pergamos is the following: If they are using stuff from Napoleon Hill, that’s bringing new age practices into the church. NH talked about the “universal mind”, connecting with it. And, he talked about knowledge floating around in the “ether” (the air and space around us), learning how to pull knowledge from it.

Brian, as someone who was into D&D when the Satanic Panic hit, I can attest that “New Age” was so overused as a snarl-word that it ceased to have any meaning whatsoever. Just the latest snarl word for Christians, like “Communist!” to a Bircher or “Witchcraft!” to a Puritan Witchfinder.

I lost count of the times I had to tell Christians that “New Age Music” (of the time) was only vaguely related to “New Age” whatever. The main link between the music and the Shirley MacLaine set was they used that mellow neoclassical/jazz fusion as meditation and make-out music.

P.S. I live in the Weird Religion capital of the USA; like lunatic-fringe politics, weird religions are a dime a dozen out here.