Catchup: Benjamin Sledge at Medium/CJ Mahaney/SGM: Perry Noble/New Church: Bill Hybels Viewed Child Porn and The Village Church Deals With an Alleged Pedophile

 

There is still beauty…

“We are to be re-made. All the rabbit in us is to disappear-and then, surprisingly, we shall find underneath it all a thing we have never yet imagined: a real Man, an ageless god, a son of God, strong, radiant, wise, beautiful, and drenched in joy.” C.S. Lewis

______________

OK folks, I have a number of important stories on abuse waiting to be told. One of the stories regarding child sex abuse will need multiple posts to fully understand the abuse that has taken place both with the children and with those who are trying to bring it to light.

There are a bunch of other stories that should be told but not enough time to tell them. So, this is a catchup post.

Benjamin Sledge at Medium asks tough questions of T4G and The Gospel Colaition.

Medium posted Together for the Go$pel and asks this tough question.

Amid backlash, evangelical leaders are finally acknowledging sexual abuse — but not a high-profile preacher allegedly facilitating it. Why?

Just when I think that CJ Mahaney’s failed ministry will fade into oblivion, someone else looks at it and gets the problems inherent in this debacle.

The Gospel Coalition blocks people who stand with SGM victims. (I admit that I am one.)

(I) found a number of users who had used the hashtag #IStandWithSGMVictims and then reported being blocked by TGC’s account. Over the next few years, this would become a common responsefrom the organization whenever it was faced with questions about its practices, or criticized for posting articles like this one: “When God Sends Your White Daughter a Black Husband.”

(Click on the link and read what’s posted there now.)

How Sovereign Grace appeared to coverup sexual abuse.

. I found a few websites that compiled allegations of sexual abuse like SGM Survivors and SGM Refuge (the latter has since shut down). On the sites, allegations from former parishioners described rampant sexual abuse and subsequent cover-ups by church officials. The stories allege that church officials told victims not to report their abuse to law enforcement. Officials allegedly made the abusers and victims (often a child, sometimes as young as three years old) reconcile, and reminded the parent’s victims of the Bible passage telling them, “Do not take believers to court.”

How the *gospel boyz* stuck up for Mahaney.

When the SGM scandal broke, and those supporting the victims took to Twitter, influential leaders among the Gospel Coalition and the Southern Baptist Convention came out in overwhelming support for C.J. Mahaney. Evangelical leaders Don Carson, Kevin DeYoung, and Justin Taylor penned an article on TGC’s website entitled, “Why We Have Been Silent About the SGM Lawsuit.”

There are some quotes by people you may recognize like me. It is well worth the read. I’m deeply grateful to Sledge for not letting this story die. Today I looked around for more recent kudos by the typical gospel boys. Except for John Piper, they appear to be keeping their support on the down low. Maybe they are felling the heat.

This closing comment by Sledge shows that he gets it. Boz is Boz Tchividjian.

Boz asserted that the major problem with sexual abuse stems from the power dynamics within evangelical institutions, where men are held in the highest esteem.

“For them to do what needs to be done, there will have to be a lot of personnel changes and new life breathed into the organization (given the events of the annual convention)… that’s difficult because of relationships and power brokers inside the SBC,” he says. “There has to be individual and institutional responsibility. It can’t be one or the other. There has to be a two-pronged approach because, whether we like it or not, the culture of the church follows the leader. We need people involved in institutional change.”

Those like Mahaney and his cohorts have a level of power, influence, and money that’s unparalleled and, when threatened, can use those means to silence their opponents or victims. They can use large sums of money for cover-ups or hush funds while using taxpayer dollars to subsidize their homes. They can easily dismiss victims and whistleblowers by appealing to their hordes of faithful followers. They can even distort their sacred literature to shame those who would dare speak for the victims.

What a stark distinction of character from that of the man they claim to follow. A homeless man who challenged systems of injustice at the hands of the Pharisees — an elite religious ruling class at which Jesus directed his harshest words. A man who spent his time with those marginalized or oppressed, who spoke against the powerful to remind us of an essential truth when it comes to justice: silence is not spiritual.

___________

Perry Noble is so excited about his new church and has learned that he is not really an alcoholic. Instead he has PTSD.

Noble wroteFIVE THOUGHTS ON THE EVE OF OUR FIRST SUNDAY AT SECOND CHANCE CHURCH. This was followed by Over 700 people attend grand opening of Perry Noble’s Second Chance Church.

In the first article, Noble, who has not been restored to preaching by his former church which says something about his former beliefs in church authority/elders (he doesn’t give a hoot), claims that he:

  • Feels under qualified: (I agree, he is.)
  • Knows he will let people down (Yep-he already has)
  • He’s scared. (He should be.)
  • He doesn’t know much. (That’s obvious)
  • He wonders if anyone will show up. (He knows they will-he has a tribe.)

In this post he has this to say about his drinking and it is worrisome.

I’ve done this before – and while I experienced some of the best days of my life, I also experienced a train wreck.

Not pointing fingers – I have taken responsibility for my part and fought like hell to get better.

Getting a proper diagnosis was KEY to this (I was actually diagnosed with PTSD when I was in treatment and not as an alcoholic–they told me alcohol was my coping mechanism for me to deal with traumatic issues I had buried since the age of around 5.)  BUT – once you are labeled (especially in “Christian world”) – it sticks with you for the rest of your life.

I once worked in an alcoholic hospital. This statement is codswallop. He may have PTSD but I believe he is also an alcoholic. He was identified as having a drinking problem by his family and former church. This is a sign of that he is an alcoholic. I would keep an eye on him. Denial is the prelude to a fall.

In the second article, we learn:

Over 700 people attended and 18 were saved at the grand opening of Perry Noble’s Second Chance Church in South Carolina,

He has this to say: (which also concerns me):

It seemed too good to be true all day yesterday but I woke up this morning and realized it was real!” Noble wrote in a Facebook post Monday morning. “Don’t ever give up on the dream God has placed in your heart for He is greater than the haters who want to pull you down! If He can use a screw up like me, He can absolutely use you!! So don’t give up — but press on — for the best is yet to come!!”

It’s the haters who cause our problems, not us. Alcoholics are known to blame others for their problems.

“Sometimes we can’t love other people because we don’t love ourselves and we don’t love ourselves because of how put down we have felt by others and the battles that we have in our own minds,” Noble said at the beginning of his message following worship. “So what do we do with that? How do we heal that mentality? I am glad you asked. It all starts with this one verse. … One of the most popular verses in the Bible … is Proverbs 17:17: ‘A friend loves at all times [and a brother is born for a time of adversity].'”

I believe that this is a disaster waiting to happen. I would suggest he get together with Tullian Tchividjian so they can sell their *We’re screwups and proud of it* club.

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Bill Hybels says he viewed child porn in the 80s.

Amy Smith at Watchkeep has done a good job writing this up in Bill Hybels admits to purchasing and viewing child pornography in his book Christians in a Sex Crazed Culture.

Some of us were  tagged in a tweet that Smith pictures on her blog. You can see that Hybels admits to purchasing and viewing child porn in the 1980s.

Smith has reported this to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Purposely receiving child porn may be a felony.

This leaves me with questions.

  • Did his church’s leadership know he wrote this? Did they confront him. If not, why not? If they didn’t read it, why not? Who was minding the store?
  • Why did Scripture Press publish this? Did the editors read it? Did they report it to authorities? Will David C Cook, which has acquired Scripture Press, report this to authorities? Will they remove the book from publication?

Smith asks some great questions.

I plan to make some calls tomorrow to the publisher. Maybe others can join Smith in this endeavor. Child porn is despicable and no one needs to view it in order to understand. Let me spell it out.

Graphic description-Trigger warning

  • Can you imagine people getting their jollies watching a little girl being raped and crying for her mommy?
  • Can you imagine people watching babies being raped?
  • Do you understand many of these children are sold into human sex slavery?

Nuff said….this makes me sick to think about it. No one needs to look at it to get it.

____________

Matt Tonne, children’s minister, arrested for alleged child sex abuse at a Village Church camp.

Smith wrote Former children’s minister at The Village Church indicted for 2012 child sexual assault in TX at church camp

This situation has raised some concerns by members/attendees of the church.

Then an attendee of the church tweeted this.

Here is what happened as best as I can tell.

Matt Tonne was removed from his position in May 2018 for reasons other than sex abuse.


In June 2018, Chandler announced that it was alcohol abuse that caused Tonne’s dismissal.

Apparently some have accused TVC of not telling the whole truth. They believe parents should have been notified of the truth sooner.

According to the Christian Post in Former Village Church children’s minister charged in assault of minor;

Just months after he was quietly removed from his role last June, the Matt Chandler-led Village Church in Texas has revealed that a former children’s minister, Matthew Tonne, has been charged with sexual assault involving a minor from his church.

The assault reportedly took place at a camp for kids in 2012.

“We have an update regarding the 2012 Kids Camp situation that we communicated publicly last September. The Dallas County District Attorney filed charges in this case against a former employee of The Village Church, Matt Tonne, who was indicted by the Dallas County Grand Jury and is being prosecuted by the District Attorney’s office. Matt turned himself in and is now out on bond. The outcome is pending trial,” the church said in a statement this week.

The admission comes after Chandler declined to say if any person of interested in the case was ever affiliated with the church after revealing the assault last September. He also said that “no persons of interest” in the investigation have access to children at The Village Church.

According to the Christian Post, Chandler originally declined to say if any person of interest was ever affiliated with the church in Village Church Pastor Matt Chandler Reveals Minor Was Sexually Assaulted at Kids Camp

“The investigation is regarding information that has come to light about the 2012 Mount Lebanon Kids Camp that The Village Church attended. The Cedar Hill Police department, under the direction of Detective Michael Hernandez, is investigating a report of sexual assault by an adult against a minor at the camp,” Chandler said to his congregation, reading from a prepared statement. “Earlier this year, the minor came to a place where it was possible to verbalize the memory of what happened for the first time through ongoing therapy. Detective Hernandez has been investigating the case since that time.”

….”If you are the mom or dad of a kid that was at the 2012 camp, we had a meeting Monday night with Detective Hernandez to inform you of this, if somehow you slipped through the cracks of that, will you please accept my apologies on that, we did all we could with the database trying to go back six years, and find you and inform you, we already realized, even though we had another meeting Wednesday night, we didn’t want you to send your kids to Focus without knowing this information,” he said. “So, if we missed you, I just hate that you’re just hearing about this right now, in this space, please forgive me for that, know that we did the best we could, to try to loop you in to that Monday meeting.”

He further stated that “no persons of interest” in the investigation have access to children at The Village Church but he did not say if any of the persons of interests were ever affiliated with the church.

Religion News Service  reported Former staff member at Dallas-area megachurch indicted for indecency with a child:

The Village Church’s update page included a video from a September church service, in which its popular lead pastor, Matt Chandler, shared that police were investigating a report an adult had allegedly sexually assaulted a minor at a 2012 camp the church had attended, Mount Lebanon Kids Camp. Earlier in the year, the child had reported the alleged incident for the first time, he said.

“It took courage and strength for the child and the family to share this information, and we want to support them in any way possible,” Chandler said.

Chandler did not name Tonne in the video, and the church’s statement did not identify his specific role on staff.

Kent Rabalais, executive director of The Village Church, confirmed Tonne’s title in an email to Religion News Service Monday (Jan. 28) and said the church did not have anything to add to last week’s statement at this time.

The parents of the child spoke well of the support they received from TVC in the Religion News article.

“Our child and our family have seen the Lord’s abounding love in this through the listening ears and tangible hands of loved ones, our church leadership and staff.”

I find this situation rather odd. Tonne was removed for alcohol abuse but not for alleged abuse. Perhaps TVC should produce a timeline because we are left with: What did they know and when did they know it?

Quick shout out to The Christian Post for calling out the issues with this situation.

Comments

Catchup: Benjamin Sledge at Medium/CJ Mahaney/SGM: Perry Noble/New Church: Bill Hybels Viewed Child Porn and The Village Church Deals With an Alleged Pedophile — 170 Comments

  1. I think I am gonna be sick. I am so tired of this stuff coming out but also so thankful for TWW and these others that are not gonna let it go. I don’t understand how these churches still try to HIDE these crimes when it seems like its’ all gonna come out eventually….why not fess up, tell the police, kick the creep OUT??? THEN the watching world will see a sense of Gods’ holiness and purity in the church?? and yes I am first but so what!!

  2. (Former TVC member, had some interaction with the Tonnes).
    Very sad to hear about it. This is a major failure on many levels by TVC (prevention/reporting/accountability/and then last year’s communication stonewalls which are now revealed as such). The truth comes out. It seems like every month or so now something else comes out that retroactively makes us wish we’d left sooner.

  3. Not to minimize people who have been hurt by Noble, but he may well have what is called “dual diagnosis” (both a psych disorder AND a substance abuse problem). To get proper treatment he needs to recognize he has such. We will not hold our breath waiting for him to do so lest we pass out from oxygen deprivation.

    And as far as Village Church goes, Chandler is an excellent teaching pastor who can communicate Biblical teachings very well (even if you don’t agree with his theology which I don’t). As a church administrator, he’s a total failure. He needs to step down and find a teaching spot at some church where someone else can handle the details of running a congregation.

  4. Abigail,

    I feel the same. I thought I was used to the situation, but I feel sickened and overwhelmed. How can these things be? And how, how in the world, can these churches lie and deceive and protect those who abuse those who look trustingly to them to care for them and their children?

    It’s one thing to suggest that we didn’t always have a handle on such things, or well thought out approaches to deal with such criminal abuse. But I’ll tell ya what, it doesn’t take an expert or a manual to tell me what to do with someone who abuses children – lock ’em up. And do everything you can to find and help other potential victims. That is just basic common sense. And I am not willing to give these leaders any more slack. What they have done, and continue to do, is not only morally wrong, but criminally wrong. It is time we put a stop to it. Now.

    Any person who performs, knows of, or covers for criminal behavior needs to be shown the door, have charges filed against them where appropriate, and never again allowed to hold a position of leadership in any church. Is there any reason any moral person would not insist upon this? I want to know.

  5. Mark R: And as far as Village Church goes, Chandler is an excellent teaching pastor who can communicate Biblical teachings very well (even if you don’t agree with his theology which I don’t). As a church administrator, he’s a total failure. He needs to step down and find a teaching spot at some church where someone else can handle the details of running a congregation.

    I have to admit I have problems with this. We need to reevaluate the whole principle of what loving and shepherding is all about. We have been sold a bill of goods, for a long, long time, that it is about a clever, charismatic speaker enrapturing us with his insight and teaching. I’m ready to say ‘Balderdash’.

    It is little more than people going to the theater to see a well performed play. Especially when you add in the semi-professional bands. Maybe we need to call them what they are – Religious Theaters – and stop paying good money for useless entertainment.

    Seriously, when it comes down to it, what is all this ‘teaching’ accomplishing that couldn’t be better accomplished by telling people to read their bibles and listen to the Spirit of God?

    But no, in our fake reality world, we demand packaged, processed food, assembly line goods and professionally packaged spirituality. Because we have been led to believe that our modern, convenience-based existence is ‘progress’. What I wouldn’t give to find some way to escape this whole modern world. And yes, I know a little of what that looks like.

    A lot of us sort of had that dream when we started having kids thirty years ago. We fled the city and the corporate world; bought some land. Many of us had dreams of a land-based life and self sufficiency. We bought the books, and learned a few skills. Some got further than others. We never managed to look like the Amish we lived so close to. I wish we had. Not that theirs is a problem free life, but they have retained an awful lot that we have lost.

  6. Mark R,

    “And as far as Village Church goes, Chandler is an excellent teaching pastor who can communicate Biblical teachings very well”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++

    well, he wins for greatest number of gestures for the least amount of substance.

    teaching pastor… when did this become a thing?

    when the church growth movement recognized it had too much to lose & incorporated controlling people by propaganda, perhaps.

    sorry, Mark R, for the spirited disagreement.

  7. TS00,

    “And how, how in the world, can these churches lie and deceive and protect those who abuse those who look trustingly to them to care for them and their children?”
    +++++++++++++++++

    a belief that one has been chosen by God to be endowed with authority leads to being able to rationalize away just about anything.

    i think that’s clear by now.

  8. No intention to defend anyone here. It just takes so much of God’s purifying and strength for people to even deal with such a topic as child-porn. It really shows human depravity!

    But I wonder if Bill Hybels was doing research at the time, trying to get an idea of the evil world of child-porn? The fact that he mentioned it in his book seems to indicate that he was not trying to hide it as a secret matter. As a church leader, one gets exposed to many ugly sins that contaminate minds. I remember James Dobson saying that he wished he had never seen those images related to the research he was assigned to do about pornography.

    As to how BH got the material and whether he reported it to the police, that’s another issue. Perhaps his purpose at the time was just research, and assumed that the police already knew a lot about such crimes.

    It’s one thing to say that BH committed sins with adults, which I can believe. And I hope God will deal with him according to His power, wisdom and mercy. On the other hand, I don’t think BH would have put it in his book if he had had bad intent while viewing some material for reference to the terrible child-porn reality that existed in the society.

  9. TS00: better accomplished by telling people to read their bibles and listen to the Spirit of God?

    What if the people reading their bibles don’t come to the conclusions the very self-important preacher wants them to come to?

    What if the Spirit of God tells them something that does not benefit the very self-important preacher?

    If there is anything this group of preachers has made clear it is they are not cool with people having the right to tell them no.

  10. Noble obliquely references the new-age concept of ‘God’s dream’, an apparent fave of Schiller and the Warrens among others, as a focus of attention. Meanwhile, concepts enumerated in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 such as pastors being “above reproach” don’t appear likely to be carved into the doorposts of “Second Chance Church”.

  11. Mark R,

    “And as far as Village Church goes, Chandler is an excellent teaching pastor who can communicate Biblical teachings very well (even if you don’t agree with his theology which I don’t). As a church administrator, he’s a total failure. He needs to step down and find a teaching spot at some church where someone else can handle the details of running a congregation.”

    Having a hard time separating whatever value as a ‘teaching pastor’ from the allegation that he offered an explanation to his church on the firing that appeared to cover up the real reason. I’d prefer shaking a tree and auditioning one of the numerous teaching pastor options that falls out.

  12. JDV:
    Having a hard time separating whatever value as a ‘teaching pastor’ from the allegation that he offered an explanation to his church on the firing that appeared to cover up the real reason. I’d prefer shaking a tree and auditioning one of the numerous teaching pastor options that falls out.

    This is a big problem with a lot of modern churches. We have elevated teaching style over integrity. I think integrity is way more important to God, and it should be more important to us.

    Hence all the problems with church abuse…

  13. JDV: Having a hard time separating whatever value as a ‘teaching pastor’ from the allegation that he offered an explanation to his church on the firing that appeared to cover up the real reason. I’d prefer shaking a tree and auditioning one of the numerous teaching pastor options that falls out.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++
    From the timeline that I have been able to put together from the various articles – the reason for firing in the summer was for alcoholism. It appears that the allegations for sexual sin came after he was fired.

  14. Don Jones:
    Maybe 1 Timothy 5:17?

    Maybe, but I think there’s a huge difference now in that it doesn’t say pastors should demand “honor”, defining honor however they determine. These demands for absolute authority over members attempts to usurp the authority of God, as everyone in the new kingdom is equally a priest under Jesus, the High Priest.

  15. Getting a proper diagnosis was KEY to this (I was actually diagnosed with PTSD when I was in treatment and not as an alcoholic–they told me alcohol was my coping mechanism for me to deal with traumatic issues I had buried since the age of around 5.)

    Dear Perry, you can be an alcoholic AND have PTSD! Shocker. Also, alcoholic is not a clinic dx anyways. A lot of diagnosis deals with how drinking affects your real life, you can be dependent or misusing it. Obviously it was intruding on his life if his relationships and jobs were falling apart to this point.

    I’m with Dee that this is probably an excuse to start drinking again.

  16. “… silence is not spiritual …” (Benjamin Sledge)

    Those words should pierce the hearts of New Calvinist who’s who in T4G and TGC who went out of their way to cover/shelter Mahaney and who continue to support him. When church leaders turn a deaf ear to the cries of abuse victims, they too will cry but not be heard. That day of reckoning may be sooner than later.

  17. TVC actually asked people to send nice friendly notes to their child abuser former employer #mindblowing

  18. “Over 700 people attend grand opening of Perry Noble’s Second Chance Church.”

    I seriously doubt that Holy God was in the crowd. As long as Noble has an audience, he will continue to have a stage. The level of gullibility in the American church is at an all-time high.

  19. ishy: We have elevated teaching style over integrity. I think integrity is way more important to God, and it should be more important to us.

    Style over substance. Agreed.

  20. “Did his church’s leadership know he wrote this? Did they confront him. If not, why not?” (Dee)

    Bill Hybels and his Willow Creek brand were too big to fail. Hybels, like most mega “pastors” surrounded himself with yes-men elders … they were caught up in the glory of the mega-bubble … if he fell, they would fall too when the bubble burst. Of course, it finally happened … but 30 years too late for Hybels’ victims. The strange thing is, there are ‘still’ folks who adore Bill Hybels, buy his books and videos, listen to his sermon podcasts … such is the cult of personality.

  21. Lea: I’m with Dee that this is probably an excuse to start drinking again.

    Or an excuse to start a new church and the same old cycle of manipulation and control via powerful personality again. He knows darn well that alcoholism isn’t going to sell.

  22. “We know this news may be difficult to hear because of Matt (Tonne)’s faithfulness over the years” (Matt Chandler)

    Good Lord! Faithful to who?! Certainly not to God, nor the ministry role entrusted to him. The man was living in gross sin! Chandler has been hanging out too long in Acts 29 – that group has always stretched moral boundaries, beginning with its founder potty-mouth Driscoll.

  23. Lea: TVC actually asked people to send nice friendly notes to their child abuser former employer #mindblowing

    That’s the part that nearly did me in. How sick is that? It shows that they weren’t ‘just’ dealing with the problem in house, which is bad enough. They weren’t ‘just’ protecting their image. They were deliberately, despicably hiding facts from those who needed to know them in order to ensure the well-being of their children. Imagine one of these ignorant parents instructing their victimized child to write a note of encouragement to their abuser? Unforgivable.

  24. JH,
    I don’t know who is running the store but there needs to be a few thoughtful leaders around. I’m shocked that a man I knew and respected when I was in Dallas has been in this stuff up to his eyeballs. Wake up, BF.

    Maybe Chandler is busy on his ranch, pushing clean meat on an unquestioning public.

  25. Mark R: he may well have what is called “dual diagnosis” (both a psych disorder AND a substance abuse problem).

    That is precisely what I said in my comments. I believe that he is in denial. I saw this way too many times. Not only did I work at an alcoholic hospital but my dad was chief of staff and he taught me a lot.

  26. I struggle to not be critical of people who continue to embrace the likes of these charlatans. I mean, I get it that one can be enchanted by the really good show. And in a super big church, never having any personal interaction with the ‘leaders’, one has no way of knowing what their real character is like.

    But seriously, after the Mars Hill debacle, how many believers in these circles don’t know about Driscoll, and his cloned friends? How could Driscoll possibly have a new church? Is it time some of us started picketing these places, and handing out brochures with the pertinent info? Maybe there are new suckers who have never heard of these perps, and get drawn into the same ol’ scam.

    But he’s such a good teacher. Oh please. Didn’t Hitler teach us the folly of mindlessly following a charismatic speaker?

  27. Mark R: Chandler is an excellent teaching pastor who can communicate Biblical teachings very well (even if you don’t agree with his theology which I don’t). As a church administrator, he’s a total failure.

    This comment is very important. I’m not sure if I can separate teaching with *administration.* In fact, I wold say that another phrase for what is administration in this setting is the *carrying out of the teaching.* Putting the words onto feet and acting accordingly. That is why I’m not so sure his teaching is *excellent* and I’m not talking about his devotion to hardcore calvinism and complementarianism.

    I have learned much about being an advocate for those who have been abused. Much of my response is based on what I’ve learned by reading the Bible and observing the actions of Jesus and Paul. Can you really imagine Jesus playing games with communicating about abuse as we have seen it lived out at TVC? Jesus was straightforward. I think that is why so many followed Him.

    In fact, the Scriptures say that many were astounded because he spoke with authority. For many in Chandler’s circle, authority is expected, not embedded as a character trait.

    Did you know that Chandler said *heads were going to roll” after the despicable actions in the Hinckley situation? As far as I can tell, not only didn’t the heads roll but heads were promoted.

    There are too many philosopher kings in our churches. We need pastors- real pastors. So glad I found them in Raleigh and so glad I had one, Pete Briscoe, while I was in Dallas.

  28. dee: I’m not sure if I can separate teaching with *administration.*

    I think this is not merely an ‘administration’ problem. It is a VALUES problem. He values the wrong things. He values men over women. Pastors over children. Reputation over integrity.

    His bad administration flows from bad values. And he’s never attempted to fix them.

  29. birdoftheair: As to how BH got the material and whether he reported it to the police, that’s another issue. Perhaps his purpose at the time was just research, and assumed that the police already knew a lot about such crimes.

    You do know that obtaining and viewing child pornography is a felony, right? So just because one wishes to *research it* does not mean that one can obtain and possess it.

    Now, tell me what you think needs to be *researched?* How a child reacts to being raped? Do you think *snuff* films should be researched? You know, sitting there and watching people being killed. What do you think you will learn there?

    Now lets assume he *researched* child porn… Where are his carefully laid out goals in his research? What was his hypothesis? What were the controls in his research? Who was on the board overseeing his *research?*

    How many subjects did he observe getting raped and what were the ranges of the ages? What kind of porn did he observe? Men on babies? Multiple perps on 5 year old children? I’m not being sarcastic. I’m trying to flesh out what anyone means by research.

    Now, I’ll tell you what I think. Given Hybel’s sexual predilection as reported by multiple women, I believe that Hybels is likely a serial predator and may even have issues with boundaries when it come to children. This needs to be reported and investigated.

  30. TS00: after the Mars Hill debacle, how many believers in these circles don’t know about Driscoll, and his cloned friends?

    Chandler, along with many of his TGC/Acts29?T4G friends, were supporters of Driscoll. Do you know how many of their followers went after me when I started writing about Driscoll. One seminary professor wrote me and pointed out all of the boyz who support Driscoll and asked what was wrong with me. Guess who was write. A whole bunch of us *little no accounts.*

    These guys don’t see it or they refuse to see it. They are agenda drive, not Jesus driven.

  31. Don Jones:
    elastigirl: teaching pastor… when did this become a thing? Maybe 1 Timothy 5:17?

    Are you saying that this Bible verse is saying that there should be a separate office of teaching pastor? It doesn’t read that way to me. Help me out.

  32. ishy: . These demands for absolute authority over members attempts to usurp the authority of God,

    Mark 1:22 NIV

    The people were amazed at his teaching, because he taught them as one who had authority, not as the teachers of the law.

    Jesus did not have to say he had authority. He was so amazing at what he taught that everyone was amazed and knew he had authority. This is far different than the authority driven preachers of today. We should sense when someone has authority, not be told that he/she has it.

  33. Lea: I’m with Dee that this is probably an excuse to start drinking again.

    I’m terribly concerned by his behavior. I think he is going to screw up a bunch of people with his nonsense. But there is nothing we can do about it. Any crazy person can start a church.

    I’m watching a show called Manifest on TV. I like really weird shows. In one episode,, a guy can’t figure out what happened to him so he assumes that he is supposed to start a church because it is obvious to him that being different means he is supposed to save the world. This weeks episode demonstrated how a view like this can lead to terrible results.

  34. Regarding Hybels: images are truncated, but the third page clearly says, “I had my assistants rent some adult videos.” How did the assistants feel?

    That two-page spread reads like a how-to manual for finding every kind of “adult” content available when Hybels was writing in the 1980s. For investors and the career minded, he helpfully points out that the industry was worth “$6-8 billion a year.”

    Worst misuse of basic concepts (p. 92, emphasis mine): “the most popular magazines show men and [women?] having s*xual relationships with children ranging … from three to eight years old.” No, those are not “relationships” of any kind, and the phrase will confuse people.

    He also laments the passage of earlier times, when he himself viewed “adult” magazines in junior high! Of course, Hybels emerged unscathed; those images were airbrushed, and some people in them were partially clad. He has it both ways: ’twas a harmless phase for me, but don’t you dare, ’cause it’s worse now (I checked).

    By the way, Citizens for Decent Literature was very active during Hybels’s junior high years.

  35. dee: Now lets assume he *researched* child porn… Where are his carefully laid out goals in his research? What was his hypothesis? What were the controls in his research? Who was on the board overseeing his *research?*

    Yeah…What he did was more like just seeing what was out there and that is a charitable explanation of it – the alternatives are more sinister. You know who legit looks at this stuff? The FBI. BH does not count.

  36. Friend: Regarding Hybels: images are truncated, but the third page clearly says, “I had my assistants rent some adult videos.” How did the assistants feel?

    And doesn’t that sound a wee bit like grooming?

  37. Friend: “the most popular magazines show men and [women?] having s*xual relationships with children ranging … from three to eight years old.”

    Is he trying to say that you could buy that stuff off the counter (‘most popular magazines’ in the 80’s? Cause that sounds factually wrong.

  38. Lea: And doesn’t that sound a wee bit like grooming?

    Hypothetically, yes. Likewise that transaction could be used as blackmail if those who rented the items later fell out of favor. Depending on the store, his folks might have rented under contract. Having not done that kind of research, I can’t say! 😉

  39. Seriously. What would Jesus do/say to a PASTOR who covered up or defended child sexual abuse??? Is there NO fear of God with these boys? Have they lost all sense of shame? All of them have lost any moral authority they thought God gave them. Wake up church!!!! The pagan world gets it better than you!!! Even in prison the guys go after child abusers!!!

  40. Friend: Likewise that transaction could be used as blackmail if those who rented the items later fell out of favor.

    Twisty and true. kudos.

  41. Lea: that sounds factually wrong.

    Wikipedia lists post-1980s legal cases, so it’s apparently hard to ban highly objectionable content. Yeah, Wikipedia is lame, but I’m not going to conduct research…

    It’s appropriate for Hybels to describe a serious problem. But discussion needs to be factual, not distorted or prurient. As Dee points out, these pages do not describe legitimate research.

    He’s not informing; he’s inflaming.

  42. Mark R: Chandler is an excellent teaching pastor who can communicate Biblical teachings very well

    Others have said the same thing about Hybels, Driscoll, MacDonald, MacArthur, Mahaney, etc. All have a touch of charisma, a gift of gab, and a gimmick of some sort … and all have been called into account for ministry failures. God measures excellence by a different standard than we do.

  43. TS00: I’m ready to say ‘Balderdash’.

    The word I’d use has a bit more color and it also starts with a ‘B’.

  44. Guest: What if the people reading their bibles don’t come to the conclusions the very self-important preacher wants them to come to?

    Good question!
    In Judaism, dissent is welcomed when they go about studying the Scriptures and arrive at different conclusions .
    Ain’t gonna happen in evangelical protestantism.

  45. Bill Hybels Viewed Child Porn and The Village Church Deals With an Alleged Pedophile

    It’s getting so my reaction to the above has become “Same Old, Same Old…”

    These days, your kid is safer at a NAMBLA convention than in a church.
    At least the NAMBLA pedos don’t justify it with long prayers and God-talk.

  46. Max: Others have said the same thing about Hybels, Driscoll, MacDonald, MacArthur, Mahaney, etc. All have a touch of charisma, a gift of gab, and a gimmick of some sort …

    So did L Ron Hubbard, Anton LaVey, and Jim Jones.

  47. dee: The people were amazed at his teaching, because he taught them as one who had authority, not as the teachers of the law.

    I tend to interpret this as ‘He taught as one who knew what he was talking about’. Any bloke can get up and make lofty speeches. Like the Pharisees who demanded the people’s tithes while rationalizing why they did not support their own aged mothers.

    Jesus was different. He spoke with an authority that came from knowing and meaning exactly of what he was speaking. He spoke about love as if he really knew what love was. He spoke of justice, truth and mercy, and the people knew, instinctively, that he knew what he was talking about, and that he demonstrated his speech with his actions.

    That is what is missing in today’s ‘teaching pastors’. They can speak pretty words. They don’t have to mean them, or even compose them themselves – they can pull them out of a book or off the web. But people would be better off reading well-crafted words in a book and studying them on their own, than bowing down to their celebrity pastors and throwing their money at them as demanded. You want ‘good teaching’? There are thousands upon thousands of books in the world. I especially recommend the older ones.

  48. Muff Potter: In Judaism, dissent is welcomed when they go about studying the Scriptures and arrive at different conclusions .

    Shows those writings have more depth and complexity than a Twitter sound bite.

  49. “Christians in a Sex-Crazed Culture”?
    CHRISTIANS HAVE THEIR OWN SEX-CRAZED CULTURE!
    Just their Sex-Craziness goes in a different direction than everyone else’s!

  50. dee: Now lets assume he *researched* child porn… Where are his carefully laid out goals in his research? What was his hypothesis? What were the controls in his research? Who was on the board overseeing his *research?*

    Why am I reminded of an old Mad Magazine “Research Project Expense Account” that included the line item “Human Trafficking — Mustang Ranch, Nevada”?

  51. I believe that this is a disaster waiting to happen. I would suggest he get together with Tullian Tchividjian so they can sell their *We’re screwups and proud of it* club.

    Including $210 Grand to Result Source to make it a CELEBRITY best-seller?

  52. Mark R,

    Yes, there’s no therapeutic reason why Noble can’t be diagnosed with both PTSD and a substance abuse disorder concurrently. He seems to be trying to shift the blame off himself and onto others. By primarily embracing PTSD, Noble (in his own mind) can potentially point to what others did to him as ultimately causing his alcoholism and other unacceptable behaviors. It also potentially serves to make him the victim, stirring sympathy for his cause. Noble appears to be using the classic strategy of a Narcissist. When will churches begin selecting non-Narcissistic leaders who are true shepherds?

  53. Lea: I’m with Dee that this is probably an excuse to start drinking again.

    “To an alky, the Constitutional Right to My Next Drink cannot be infringed in any way.”
    — Steven King, recovering alcoholic

  54. Max:
    “Over 700 people attend grand opening of Perry Noble’s Second Chance Church.”

    I seriously doubt that Holy God was in the crowd.As long as Noble has an audience, he will continue to have a stage.The level of gullibility in the American church is at an all-time high.

    Why don’t any of these “I Have a Verse — SCRIPTURE!” types remember the Verse
    “FOR GOD SHALL SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION, THAT THEY SHALL BELIEVE A LIE”?

  55. Don Jones,

    i was born into church.

    for better and for worse.

    growing up things were simple. no byzantine business plans, org charts, policies and procedures, nda’s,… all of which nowadays they’ve found ways to deem “biblical”.

    (i’ve developed my own Doctrine of Ladybugs, drawing heavily from Paul and Genesis)

    ha… i just did a fun little exercise. i googled Pastor Of _ and went through the alphabet.

    pastor of administration
    pastor of apologetics
    pastor of assimilation
    associate pastor
    pastor of business
    pastor of care
    pastor of children
    college pastor
    pastor of communications
    pastor of community life
    pastor of congregational care
    pastor of connections
    pastor of counseling
    pastor of discipleship
    pastor of evangelism
    pastor of family ministries
    Executive Pastor
    GenX Pastor
    Lead Pastor
    pastor of leadership development
    pastor member care
    Middle School Pastor
    pastor of ministries
    pastor of operations
    pastor of outreach
    pastor of pastors
    pastor of small groups
    pastor of spiritual formation
    pastor of stewardship
    Teaching Pastor
    pastor visitation
    Worship Pastor
    Youth Pastor

    won’t be long before hiking pastor, biking pastor, pastor of itallian food, scuba pastor, pastor of weight lifting show up.

    ridiculous

  56. Headless Unicorn Guy:
    “Christians in a Sex-Crazed Culture”?
    CHRISTIANS HAVE THEIR OWN SEX-CRAZED CULTURE!
    Just their Sex-Craziness goes in a different direction than everyone else’s!

    I just read a TGC article about how one couple just fell apart after 8 months and it was all vague references to sexual activity before marriage being the cause. That’s not why something ends in 8 months, it was so ridiculous! If anything, reading between the lines, they got married because of it or there was other stuff the article didn’t want to actually mention in order to make that point. It’s ridiculous.

    But abuse people from a position of power and you get a pass. Dumb.

  57. Headless Unicorn Guy: “FOR GOD SHALL SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION, THAT THEY SHALL BELIEVE A LIE”?

    Lord, there are a lot of deluded churchgoers! Mega-congregations of some celebrity pastors have bought the lie lock, stock and barrel.

  58. elastigirl,

    no, i’ll tell you what’s ridiculous.

    i do many of those things, gratis. title-free. been doing them for years.

    (well, not scuba pastor. certainly not pastor of connections, only because i haven’t a clue what that is, much less how to make a full-time job out of it with handsome salary, benefits, and perks)

    now all of a sudden they are worthy of a trumped-up title, office, nameplate on door, a salary, health insurance, a discretionary spending credit card, power over people…

    i’m not allowed. woman, here, you see.

    but i’m not interested. i do it for free. have no need of a title. have no need to siphon off other people’s money given in good faith to God in order to do it.

  59. To be the devil’s advocate for Hybels, I think that narrative is a tall tale, kind of like Reefer Madness. I don’t think a random person has ever been able to walk to an adult shop and buy illicit porn. Even today it requires the savvy to enter the “Dark Web”.

    The thing about Chandler is that in Mingling of Souls, there’s an account where he suspected a young man had come to “hunt” for girls (he won’t say women, or even young women) at The Village. And his heart becomes angry (As with the “Jesus wants the rose!” story, Matt Chandler makes sure to mention how angry he is in an aggrandizing story about himself) and he tells the young man he’s not allowed back. Similar stories dot his sermons.

    But let’s send a suspected child molester cards of encouragement, and remind everyone there’s a judicial process.

  60. elastigirl: won’t be long before hiking pastor, biking pastor, pastor of itallian food, scuba pastor, pastor of weight lifting show up.

    Pastor of Pole-Dancing?
    Pastor of Cage Fighting?

    PASTOR OF PASTORS?

  61. elastigirl: certainly not pastor of connections, only because i haven’t a clue what that is

    I’m guess they work with new members/social activities/etc?

  62. I just read some of the book excerpt. And OH MY GOODNESS, HYBELS WAS OK WITH PORNOGRAPHY! Despictable!

  63. HereIStand,

    Anyone know where the picture comes from on your “reply”?
    This is the first time I’ve posted here and I was surprised by a very old pic!

  64. TS00: ‘teaching pastors’

    That term originated with mega-mania. It’s a way of letting the pew know that the main guy on stage each Sunday will “teach” you but not “pastor” you. If you are hurting, in the hospital, in a nursing home, need someone to marry you or bury you, don’t expect the “teaching pastor” to do it … he just teaches, you know. The same thing is happening in smaller churches (New Calvinist, particularly) with “lead” pastor … they are the main show on Sunday mornings, don’t bother them with anything else.

  65. I’ve read the OP and am about 3/4th down the comments and just wanted to say:

    There are several different stories in the OP about how men in leadership roles are being dishonest or behaving in a scummy fashion, and other men are still supporting them and backing them up.

    This sort of thing really makes me wonder how the complementarians among them (Chandler is one) can continue to argue that women should be barred from any and/or all leader roles (teaching, preaching, whatever).

    Men are no more immune from being deceived, deceiving, or behaving poorly than women are, as can be seen on this thread, and in many others on this site.

    The Complementarians need to explain to me why, exactly, they feel only men are qualified to be leaders, or in any sort of authority or decision-making role, since they’ve not proven themselves to be above the issues they assume women would have if women took over those same stations.

    -And quoting a verse or two about “I forbid a woman to teach” doesn’t explain the rationale. (Neither does the “But Eve was deceived” bit, since again, this thread and others show that some men are deceived and deceive.)

  66. elastigirl: i googled Pastor Of _ and went through the alphabet

    A popular title in New Calvinist churches in my area is “NextGen Pastor” … formerly known as youth pastor, young adult pastor, or college pastor. The young reformers are all about indoctrinating the next generation – they don’t really give a big whoop about older folks.

  67. Monsters in their midst doing horrific harm to children, and what do they do? Gloss over, cover up and obfuscate until the justice system catches up with them, and then finally admit to something but still never come clean and state the plain truth. Disgusting.

    There is something deeply wrong with the whole evangelical system when this kind of thing can happen.

  68. Max: It’s a way of letting the pew know that the main guy on stage each Sunday will “teach” you but not “pastor” you.

    Are you sure of this or just guessing?

    Because my guess would be it has to do its’ a bit borrowed from the Presbyterians, because they distinguish between lay elders and pastors and some of them do it by referring to teaching elders.

  69. Lea: Are you sure of this or just guessing?

    “Teaching pastors” in the churches in my area teach/preach – don’t see them doing anything but that. Pastoring (hospital and nursing home visits, funerals, general tending to the flock) is done by associate staff and/or elders (in the churches I have knowledge of).

  70. Daisy: This sort of thing really makes me wonder how the complementarians among them (Chandler is one) can continue to argue that women should be barred from any and/or all leader roles (teaching, preaching, whatever).

    Perhaps they’ve had bad experiences trying to get women to cooperate with their deception, corruption, and coverups?

  71. Max,

    Perhaps I should have quoted your ‘That term originated with mega-mania.’ My guess is it’s the calvanistas borrowing from the presbys more than anything. YMMV.

    [we have discussed at my church the teaching elder/elder divide and some have expressed preferences for pastor instead so it may also come from on high, where you are dealing with denominations and have little to do with function the way you are describing it]

    True of some church, doubtless.

  72. Headless Unicorn Guy: Just their Sex-Craziness goes in a different direction than everyone else’s!

    Sometimes, depending on the Christian, the or type of church, denomination, or theology, the Christian (or church) is identical to secular culture.

    Mark Driscoll is one example.

    So many Christians want to look cool, they act just as ridiculous, obsessed about, and out-there about sex as secular culture does.
    They want to be seen as hip and edgy, not as puritanical fuddy duddies, so they talk raunchy in their sermons, and in their books and tweets.

  73. The offices of the church are derived from Scripture and perhaps the clearest explanation is found in
    “The Form of Presbyterial Church-Government and of the Ordination of Ministers; Agreed upon by The Assembly of Divines at Westminster, with the Assistance of Commissioners from the Church of Scotland, as a part of the Covenanted Uniformity in Religion betwixt the Churches of Christ in the Kingdoms of Scotland, England and Ireland. Approved by Act of the General Assembly February 10, 1645.”

    I was going to insert a lengthy quotation but thought better of it. You can find versions of it online quite easily. Basically it’s usually found towards the back of the Westminster Confession of Faith and Catechisms which used to be staple fare over here.

  74. Lowlandseer,

    It’s a handy document to know. For example it states that “No man is to be ordained a minister for a particular congregation, if they of that congregation can show just cause of exception against him”.

    And he is to be heard and judged by the congregation to see if his calling and gifts are commensurate with the position being offered.

  75. HereIStand: By primarily embracing PTSD, Noble (in his own mind) can potentially point to what others did to him as ultimately causing his alcoholism and other unacceptable behaviors. It also potentially serves to make him the victim, stirring sympathy for his cause.

    Sometimes, I watch this show that comes on every week. I think it’s called ‘The Big Family,’ or whatever.

    Many adult members of this family weigh 350 or 650 pounds.

    One of the adult sons on the show (who weighs around 650 LBS) keeps blaming his father for his weight.

    His parents are divorced. He’s around 32, living with his dad. He sometimes goes to visit his mom.

    He’s said anytime he has a sweets craving, his mother will toss him a single (small) hershey’s kiss, but his dad will go to the store and come back with an entire one pound pack of M and M’s chocolate candy.

    I do get that our family of origins (or other people) can sometimes lead us to unhealthy coping mechanisms, and our family can be our enablers, but watching this show, I couldn’t help but see that though the Dad would buy the one pound bag of candy didn’t mean the guy had to eat the entire bag in one sitting.

    That was still his choice. Just because his dad bought him the candy doesn’t mean he had to eat all of it, but he kept doing it.

    I don’t mean to totally rag on that guy. Overcoming an unhealthy coping mechanism (over eating, drinking, whatever) can be very difficult, but on shows like this, you can see how some people cannot or will not own up to their own part in whatever problem they’re having.

  76. Lea: … calvanistas borrowing from the presbys …

    Could be. Most of the megas in my area have a touch of reformed to them. Their “teaching pastors” focus primarily on grace-grace-grace sermons. Presbyterianism is much more civilized than New Calvinism, however (IMO).

  77. ishy: huge difference now in that it doesn’t say pastors should demand “honor”, defining honor however they determine.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 Peter 5:1-4 “Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, (2) shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; (3) nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock. (4) And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.” There is no room for “lording it over those allotted to your charge.” The call is to be an example. The “undershepherd” is responsible to the Chief-Shepherd who purchased the church with His life. The church belongs to Jesus as we know. There is a day coming in which “undershepherds” will have to give an account to Jesus of how they handled his flock. Really VERY sobering! But I don’t believe that those who work hard at preaching-teaching automatically are desiring of honor. They are attempting to be faithful to speak God’s truth. H.B. Charles put it this way, “A passion to preach without the burden to study is a desire to perform.” Sure there are those who just desire publicity – tragically. So the key to faithful ministry is remembering that the church/sheep belong to Jesus and the call to faithfulness.

  78. Lowlandseer,

    And SInclair Ferguson highlights the modern problem of celebrity pastors when he says “The church is a fellowship of pastoral care. Explicit directions are given to those who have specific gifts (Romans 12:3-8 for example). But exhortation is also given to the whole church to exercise a pastoral ministry ‘Toesch is given the manifestations n of the Spirit for the common good’ (1 Cor 12:7)……By contrast, our logic in the evangelical tradition has tended to be that once these things are true of me individually, and I can gather enough individuals like myself around me, then they will be true of the church. We move from the individual to the corporate, the microcosm to the microcosm. Paul’s teaching moves in the opposite direction. Once that is grasped, the necessity of church association for true sanctification becomes self-evident”. ( Some Pastors and Teachers, ch7 Christian Spirituality: The Reformed View of Sanctification, pps 549-550)

  79. Lea: That’s not why something ends in 8 months, it was so ridiculous!

    I’ve seen this go both ways, depending on who is doing the writing.

    Those opposed to Christian Purity Culture on social media will sometimes post tweets or links to articles about how 20-somethings ‘thus- and- so’s’ young marriage fell apart supposedly because of the awfulness of the church’s sexual purity teachings…

    The end point of such tweets or stories is that the formerly Christian couple were not “sexual compatible,”

    -so they had to divorce because the sex was not working for them, drat it all, and shaking fist in anger at sexual purity teachings.

    If only the church had taught them, and all teens and 20-somethings, that it’s perfectly okay and fine to boink before marriage, we wouldn’t have so many sex related problems in Christian marriages, is what those sorts of articles or tweets get at.

  80. Daisy: Those opposed to Christian Purity Culture on social media will sometimes post tweets or links to articles about how 20-somethings ‘thus- and- so’s’ young marriage fell apart supposedly because of the awfulness of the church’s sexual purity teachings…

    I am more in agreement with them on a number of issues, although this is usually related to shame revolving around sexual activity at all that cannot be easily shed once married, the repercussions of an idea that only men want or need sex (including deep selfishness in bed), and also the use of p*** and how that can affect sex.

    Anyways. There was also an article from Kathy keller (I think) about how you shouldn’t marry ‘unbelievers’ because then they won’t spend all day at church with you or something.

  81. dee: Are you saying that this Bible verse is saying that there should be a separate office of teaching pastor? It doesn’t read that way to me. Help me out.

    ++++++++++++++++++++
    No, I’m not saying that there should be a separate office of “teaching-preaching pastor.” The point I was attempting to make is that there is emphasis in the NT on preaching and teaching and doing it well. Ephesians 4:11 is probably better understood as pastor-teacher instead of two separate offices. This would be supported by the Granville-Sharp rule in Greek Grammar. So the role of Pastor-Teacher does appear to be a NT concept, but I’m not convinced it is the same as the terminology used today in many larger churches. I’m not sure about all the other “hyphenated” pastor positions which seems to have contributed to creating a separate “Teaching/Preaching Pastor” position. I’m still trying to sort out some of my own thoughts on church structure. Thanks for asking. Hope that helps to clarify … at least a bit.

  82. Stan,

    Hi Stan

    I;m swamped. Remember that comments can be held for review due to words we have in a list. I’ve been approving comments faster than usual but now I have Safelight here replacing my windshield. That means any held comment will be dealt with when I can squeeze in some time.

    Today, 3 of my comments were sent to be reviewed. And I know the list!!

  83. HereIStand: He seems to be trying to shift the blame off himself and onto others. By primarily embracing PTSD, Noble (in his own mind) can potentially point to what others did to him as ultimately causing his alcoholism and other unacceptable behaviors. It also potentially serves to make him the victim,

    Love your comment.

  84. Max: If you are hurting, in the hospital, in a nursing home, need someone to marry you or bury you, don’t expect the “teaching pastor” to do it … he just teaches, you know.

    Ed Stetzer was once the guru of church planting. He planted 3 churches but they seem to have disappeared or were consolidated, etc. Now he is onto becoming the guru of abuse….

    When he was the pastor he said he wouldn’t do funerals, hospital visits, marriages, etc. I guess his people were supposed to be stunned by his teaching.

  85. Max,

    Thankfully, I have two pastors who teach, do hospital visitation, lug around generators that are being shipped to victims of a hurricane and like to teach the kids as well.

  86. Don Jones: The point I was attempting to make is that there is emphasis in the NT on preaching and teaching and doing it well. Ephesians 4:11 is probably better understood as pastor-teacher instead of two separate offices

    I love watching my two pastors who exemplify how to be well rounded in how they relate to the church members. They do it all and they do it with kindness.

  87. Do any of you have any idea how one goes about obeying Pastor Chandler by sending noted of encouragement to a children’s pastor arrested on suspicion of child sex abuse? This is one I gotta here. If I had time, I would do a half serious post asking readers to compose such a letter.

  88. Max: A popular title in New Calvinist churches in my area is “NextGen Pastor” … formerly known as youth pastor, young adult pastor, or college pastor.The young reformers are all about indoctrinating the next generation – they don’t really give a big whoop about older folks.

    “Give me your children for five years and I will make them mine. You will pass away, but they will remain Mine.”
    — Adolf Hitler, cult leader

  89. Daisy: I don’t mean to totally rag on that guy. Overcoming an unhealthy coping mechanism (over eating, drinking, whatever) can be very difficult, but on shows like this, you can see how some people cannot or will not own up to their own part in whatever problem they’re having.

    “SEE WHAT YOU MADE ME DO(TM)!!!!!”

  90. Max: That term originated with mega-mania.

    “It’s Time For — MEGA-MANIACS!
    SAY ‘A-MEN’ WHILE PASTOR YAKS!”

  91. dee,

    Thank you, Dee.

    I’m so thankful for your wonderful website and for all your hard work to keep us informed!

    I’m so grateful for this website and your hard work in keeping us informed.

  92. Getting some rumors that I believe might have play. Have you heard this? In 2014, Bill Hybels instructed some IT person to totally smash his hard rive on the computer. Pictures were allegedly taken as proof that the destruction was accomplished. Could this be the reason that the church leadership could not get at the emails? Given the recent issues surrounding child porn, could there have been something else on that hard drive? Working this now.

  93. HereIStand,

    You are kind. I wish I could do it all as well as I would like. However, it is the most wonderful thing in the world. So may people trust me with their stories and that is humbling.

  94. Daisy,

    “The equivalent job title for all those in complementarian churches for women is “director of…””
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    pastor… all the salary bracket classification, power plays, & pomp and circumstance over a word that shows up in the NT *once* among a list of other functions.

    can i say ridiculous again?

  95. Stan: To be the devil’s advocate for Hybels, I think that narrative is a tall tale, kind of like Reefer Madness.

    My upbringing was full of Reefer Madness Christians who devoted their lives to scaring the heck out of us. We even had a regular caller who warned us not to listen to “Puff the Magic Dragon” because Communists were breaking down the American family unit through drugs.

    Hybels’s equating child r*pe with “s*xual relationships” is a classic example of this toxicity: confuse the definitions, amplify the danger. In my youth group, one week they would warn us about being kidnapped by cults. The next week they would say that Satanists were coming to town to m*rder us all. Oh, and don’t hold hands.

  96. dee: When he was the pastor he said he wouldn’t do funerals, hospital visits, marriages, etc. I guess his people were supposed to be stunned by his teaching.

    With that attitude, they should have been stunned that Stetzer called himself “pastor.”

  97. dee: Boom!

    It would seem logical to request a comment from James Dobson. It would also seem like a yes or no question in regards to any suggestion to Hybels that he view porn for self-education.

    If so, why would Dobson recommend obtaining an addictive material?

  98. TS00: the

    Problem is, those who fill the collapsible chairs will swear to the integrity and goodness of the leader—even if they’ve never once seen the private man, never known him personally, never even met him except in a quick handshake at church when he looked in their eyes and impressed them with that feigned sincerity. They will swear he’s a good guy, even though they don’t know anything but the stage presence.

  99. Law Prof: They will swear he’s a good guy, even though they don’t know anything but the stage presence.

    But he’s such a good teacher! I watch him every week on TV!

  100. Bill Hybels viewed child pornography…for research purposes. What?! He could not do the hard research work of searching through articles regarding case studies, crime statistics, etc. in peer-reviewed criminal justice/social work/psychology journals? He needed to view heart-wrenching acts of brutality to write his book? The guy is sick.

    And his assistants – did they have a conscience? They couldn’t say, “Sorry, won’t do that?”
    Like those who made sure that the German trains ran on time 1939-1945. They didn’t care who was on them. Just following orders.

  101. Did you know that Chandler said *heads were going to roll” after the despicable actions in the Hinckley situation? As far as I can tell, not only didn’t the heads roll but heads were promoted.

    EXACTLY!! On the heels of the Hinckley situation they said they wanted to apologize to anyone they had abused. A few months later at a member meeting, Matt (or possibly Josh) announced that they had 100 meetings with people to apologize. This would only be the people who came forward and sought an apology, think of all the people who didn’t, I knew of a few personally. One hundred apologies. If that was one or two bad actors, those people needed to be fired – no one was. If the 100 acts of abuse were spread over all the staff, there is a culture of abuse at the church – yet the same people are still in charge.

    As a former member of TVC who left because of other deceptive things done by a pastor and top staff member, there was no doubt in my mind that the person involved in the Camp Lebanon incident had to be a TVC staff person. If it had been a Camp Lebanon employee or even a random volunteer, TVC would have thrown that person under the bus when the news first started to break. My guess is that they hoped Tonne wouldn’t get indicted and the whole thing would go away, hence the careful wording of the initial statement, and saying Tonne left due an alcohol problem.

    If some TVCer is actually reading this. Please, try out a different church. I know if you’ve been there a while you’ve heard 500 sermons about TVC “distinctives” and why TVC is better and how you are a part of something special at TVC. Matt is good at making you feel. Go sit in the pews someplace else for a few weeks and realize the amount of brainwashing that you’ve been through. At other churches, you can meet the pastor for lunch, get your phone calls returned, and you can question without getting rebuked. If you stay long enough in another environment you’ll be a little embarrassed that you fell for it for so long.

    And for the love, please do not give them $40-$60 million to build a new campus. The current campus isn’t even 10 years old and the congregation has shrunk. Yes, some of this is due to spinning off campuses, but most of it is due to people leaving. The new building is to try and make TVC competitive with Valley Creek and Rockpointe.

  102. @Dee – I need to correct a comment I made concerning the office of Pastors-Teachers in Ephesians 4:11. While it is true that commentators do often see this as one office, it cannot be based on the Granville-Sharp rule. The Granville Sharp rule applies to singular nouns and the nouns are plural here – pastors and teachers.

    Expositors Commentary for example says: “Pastors and teachers” are grouped together in such a way as to suggest that the two roles are regarded as complementary and often coordinated in the same person. Pastors (literally, “shepherds”) probably included presbyters and bishops; they were entrusted with the nurture, protection, and supervision of the flock. Teachers are linked with prophets in Acts 13:1 and follow them in the list contained in 1 Corinthians 12:28.

    Wood, A. S. (1981). Ephesians. In F. E. Gaebelein (Ed.), The Expositor’s Bible Commentary: Ephesians through Philemon (Vol. 11, p. 58). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House.

    James Montgomery Boice writes: I put these gifts into one category because they may, in fact, actually be one gift. In Ephesians 4:11 the Greek phrasing permits us to join together the words “pastors” and “teachers,” so that we could speak of the gift of pastor-teacher.

    Boice, J. M. (1988). Ephesians: an expositional commentary (p. 136). Grand Rapids, MI: Ministry Resources Library.

    I got to thinking I was probably wrong with the arguments for Pastor-Teacher here and so “fact checked” myself last night and I was wrong. My apologies – will work on doing better. Off to work. Thanks!

  103. Law Prof: and impressed them with that feigned sincerity.

    “Sincerity – if you can fake that, you’ve got it made.” George Burns (and others)

  104. dee: Chandler, along with many of his TGC/Acts29?T4G friends, were supporters of Driscoll. Do you know how many of their followers went after me when I started writing about Driscoll. One seminary professor wrote me and pointed out all of the boyz who support Driscoll and asked what was wrong with me.

    Before my time. Would love to know when in the process you caught on to him and began to spread the word.

  105. 700 people show up to “Pastor P’s” church plant? Why are people attracted to this?

    1. Maybe some of these people grew up in dysfunctional homes, and Pastor P reminds them of their angry and unbalanced father.

    2. “Preaching” has become a weird form of performance art, and “Pastor P” is really good at performing, and stirring the emotions.

    3. Some people enjoy watching a train wreck. Or maybe it’s more like a high-wire act without a net. A guy walking down a wire isn’t that interesting, unless he could plunge to the floor at any time. Viewers get an adrenaline rush from the potential for disaster.

    Seems to me that if your church job caused PTSD and drove you to drink, it might not be the best idea to start another church. I do hope that P’s wife and child are doing well, and that they living somewhere else, with minimal contact.

  106. dee: Chandler, along with many of his TGC/Acts29?T4G friends, were supporters of Driscoll. Do you know how many of their followers went after me when I started writing about Driscoll. One seminary professor wrote me and pointed out all of the boyz who support Driscoll and asked what was wrong with me. Guess who was write. A whole bunch of us *little no accounts.*

    These guys don’t see it or they refuse to see it. They are agenda drive, not Jesus driven.

    I came across this old video from YouTube the other day, it’s Matt Chandler promoting the Act Like Men Conference he’s hosting with… Mark Driscoll and Tullian Tchividjian. Also featuring James MacDonald.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgW0poW0lJk

  107. Stan: I came across this old video from YouTube the other day, it’s Matt Chandler promoting the Act Like Men Conference he’s hosting with… Mark Driscoll and Tullian Tchividjian. Also featuring James MacDonald.

    Chandler should be suspicious for the company he keeps, but he seems to present better somehow and get a pass. But when you look at what he does you see it’s all the same.

  108. Lea: Chandler should be suspicious for the company he keeps

    There is nothing more suspicious than his long-time association with Acts 29. Indeed, he became President of Acts 29 when potty-mouth Driscoll fell. He has been an active proponent of Calvinization of the SBC, a traditional non-Calvinist denomination – SBC’s young reformers look up to Chandler as a key influencer of the New Calvinist movement. Chandler and TVC hold dual affiliation with SBC and Acts 29.

  109. Speaking of Tullian T, heard an ad this morning he is speaking in 2 weekends at Leave a Mark Church in central OH: ad says he messed up, but they believe in “grace for everyone” and the (poor man, my words) “lost everything” but “God didn’t give up on him”, gag…

  110. Matt Chandler already made his feelings about child sexual abuse known 4 years ago when Karen Hinkley decided she did not want to be married to a pedophile.

    Matt Chandler attacked the woman who could not stomach child sexual abuse and did not attack the pedophile.

    Matt Chandler did not want the pedophile to lose anything. The pedophile deserved to have a submissive wife.

    For these parents to have seen this and keep bringing their children to Village Church looks like the parents worship Matt Chandler more than they love their own children.

    I feel sorry for any child who has parents selfish enough to take them to this pedophile coddling church.

  111. L. Alexander: Bill Hybels viewed child pornography…for research purposes. What?! He could not do the hard research work of searching through articles regarding case studies, crime statistics, etc. in peer-reviewed criminal justice/social work/psychology journals?

    He wanted to look at it.

  112. Stan: I came across this old video from YouTube the other day, it’s Matt Chandler promoting the Act Like Men Conference he’s hosting with… Mark Driscoll and Tullian Tchividjian. Also featuring James MacDonald.

    “These four Apostles said one to another
    ‘Apostle unto Apostle o’er the world is Brother’…”

  113. L. Alexander:
    Bill Hybels viewed child pornography…for research purposes.What?!He could not do the hard research work of searching through articles regarding case studies, crime statistics, etc. in peer-reviewed criminal justice/social work/psychology journals?He needed to view heart-wrenching acts of brutality to write his book?The guy is sick.

    And his assistants – did they have a conscience?They couldn’t say, “Sorry, won’t do that?”
    Like those who made sure that the German trains ran on time 1939-1945.They didn’t care who was on them.Just following orders.

    Maybe some context would be helpful for you. There was never any Evangelical child porn craze.

    There was a public discussion of porn in the 1980’s initiated by James Dobson. For background, I recommend looking up “the Meese Commision.” Dobson was a Committee member and spoke frequently on-air regarding this.

    It is believable to me, that he would recommend pastors familiarize themselves with the types of available content. The context to my thinking, was to understand the ministry needs.

    If any such viewing occurred, it would mean viewing addictive content.

  114. Guest,

    “For these parents to have seen this and keep bringing their children to Village Church looks like the parents worship Matt Chandler more than they love their own children.”
    ++++++++++++++

    the sheer principle of the matter…. to support such an organization with one’s presence, time and money.

    i dread to think the cheering enthusiasm that goes along with it.

    i marvel at many church-culture christians. when they stand on principle, how highly selective it is.

    they’ll put on their angry eyes with something like gay marriage.

    they’ll put on their happy eyes (or regular, tolerant eyes) when the leader and institution they love being associated with sacrifices integrity and human lives for their own careers, for profit and convenience.

    When christian leaders sacrifice integrity and human lives for God. Yes, they do. Imagine that.

    Too big to fail, is their thinking.

    i marvel at how many church-culture christians and leaders tailor their ethics according to what’s good & convenient for them and theirs, what shields them from their personal ick factors, what makes them feel like they’re on the winning team.

    these are the principles they stand on.

  115. TS00,

    He’s now moved in to the steak industry. The following blurb kind of suggests that good steaks might have curative properties.

    “It all started 9 years ago when Matt Chandler was diagnosed with incurable brain cancer. He was given 2 years to live. His doctors and nutritionists had informed him to eat as “clean” as possible while continuing to get the calories he would need. They encouraged him to find food options that were organic or all-natural, hormone-free, and antibiotic-free. While fruits and vegetables were easy to find, red meat (Matt’s favorite) was not. So he began to seek high-quality beef locally with no success. This forced him to seek online sales and led him to buying from a ranch in Oklahoma.

    Lance Autrey grew up on a Limousine cattle ranch in Central Texas. For 5 generations back, his family have all been cattle men. In his youth, he spent years helping his grandfather in Waco, Texas deliver ranch to table beef to local homes and restaurants. Since his time on the ranch, Lance has had several successful startup businesses, and with his friend having to buy this quality meat outside of Texas he saw an opportunity. It always seemed odd to him that people would spend large amounts of money on dome cookers and pellet grills to then cook poor quality meat from chain grocery stores.

    Matt has beaten the odds of the disease and he and Lance expanded on their idea of sourcing ranches with the highest of standards. They have put together a very talented team of meat market owners, business professionals, and cattle ranchers to roll out Texas Craft Steaks to the general public.

    We at Texas Craft Steaks are eager to provide the highest quality meats available anywhere in the world to your door step to enjoy with your friends and family.

    Ecc 2:24- Nothing is better for man than to eat and drink and enjoy his work. I have also seen that this is from the hand of God.”
    (From their website)

  116. elastigirl:
    Mark R,

    “And as far as Village Church goes, Chandler is an excellent teaching pastor who can communicate Biblical teachings very well”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++

    well, he wins for greatest number of gestures for the least amount of substance.

    teaching pastor…when did this become a thing?

    when the church growth movement recognized it had too much to lose & incorporated controlling people by propaganda, perhaps.

    sorry, Mark R, for the spirited disagreement.

    Back in the day they were called “ministers of education”. And they were in the larger churches.

    Again I’m not defending what he teaches. My main point is that he teaches well, he administrates (very) poorly, and would do better in a position where he has no other responsibilities besides teaching.

  117. Max: Others have said the same thing about Hybels, Driscoll, MacDonald, MacArthur, Mahaney, etc.All have a touch of charisma, a gift of gab, and a gimmick of some sort … and all have been called into account for ministry failures.God measures excellence by a different standard than we do.

    My point is being totally ignored here. I’m not hear to defend WHAT they teach, only that in teaching what they teach, they do it very well.

    The problem is when they went beyond simply teaching and started calling the shots as administrators. That’s when it becomes clear to everyone they are simply way out of their element (and yes I’m being very kind). We saw that with Driscoll and Hybels, we’re seeing that with MacDonald, Chandler, throw Ed Young Jr. in there too. I agree with Wartburg that these people have no business running a church (in fact to quote Mark Cuban they have no business running a Dairy Queen for that matter).

  118. Better Late Than Never Lance:
    Did you know that Chandler said *heads were going to roll” after the despicable actions in the Hinckley situation? As far as I can tell, not only didn’t the heads roll but heads were promoted.

    EXACTLY!!On the heels of the Hinckley situation they said they wanted to apologize to anyone they hadabused. A few months later at a member meeting, Matt (or possibly Josh) announced that they had 100 meetings with people to apologize.This would only be the people who came forward and sought an apology, think of all the people who didn’t, I knew of a few personally.One hundred apologies.If that was one or two bad actors, those people needed to be fired – no one was.If the 100 acts of abuse were spread over all the staff, there is a culture of abuse at the church – yet the same people are still in charge.

    As a former member of TVC who left because of other deceptive things done by a pastor and top staff member, there was no doubt in my mind that the person involved in the Camp Lebanon incident had to be a TVC staff person.If it had been a Camp Lebanon employee or even a random volunteer, TVC would have thrown that person under the bus when the news first started to break.My guess is that they hoped Tonne wouldn’t get indicted and the whole thing would go away, hence the careful wording of the initial statement, and saying Tonne left due an alcohol problem.

    If some TVCer is actually reading this.Please, try out a different church.I know if you’ve been there a while you’ve heard 500 sermons about TVC “distinctives” and why TVC is better and how you are a part of something special at TVC.Matt is good at making you feel. Go sit in the pews someplace else for a few weeks and realize the amount of brainwashing that you’ve been through.At other churches, you can meet the pastor for lunch, get your phone calls returned, and you can question without getting rebuked.If you stay long enough in another environment you’ll be a little embarrassed that you fell for it for so long.

    And for the love, please do not give them $40-$60 million to build a new campus.The current campus isn’t even 10 years old and the congregation has shrunk.Yes, some of this is due to spinning off campuses, but most of it is due to people leaving. The new building is to try and make TVC competitive with Valley Creek and Rockpointe.

    If they live within driving distance of TVC Flower Mound, they can go right down 407 toward the lake, cross under I-35 and right between a bar/grill and an AA meetinghouse there is a small church where you can actually meet the pastor. Same denomination and everything.

  119. Mark R: My point is being totally ignored here. I’m not hear to defend WHAT they teach, only that in teaching what they teach, they do it very well.

    The problem is when they went beyond simply teaching and started calling the shots as administrators

    No. The administration failures are a result of their values. They teach their values. It’s all a fail.

    What is true apparently is that he has a style that appeals to some. That doesn’t make him a good teacher if he’s teaching the wrong things.

  120. Lowlandseer:
    TS00,

    He’s now moved in to the steak industry. The following blurb kind of suggests that good steaks might have curative properties.

    “It all started 9 years ago when Matt Chandler was diagnosed with incurable brain cancer. He was given 2 years to live. His doctors and nutritionists had informed him to eat as “clean” as possible while continuing to get the calories he would need. They encouraged him to find food options that were organic or all-natural, hormone-free, and antibiotic-free. While fruits and vegetables were easy to find, red meat (Matt’s favorite) was not. So he began to seek high-quality beef locally with no success. This forced him to seek online sales and led him to buying from a ranch in Oklahoma.

    Lance Autrey grew up on a Limousine cattle ranch in Central Texas. For 5 generations back, his family have all been cattle men. In his youth, he spent years helping his grandfather in Waco, Texas deliver ranch to table beef to local homes and restaurants. Since his time on the ranch, Lance has had several successful startup businesses, and with his friend having to buy this quality meat outside of Texas he saw an opportunity. It always seemed odd to him that people would spend large amounts of money on dome cookers and pellet grills to then cook poor quality meat from chain grocery stores.

    Matt has beaten the odds of the disease and he and Lance expanded on their idea of sourcing ranches with the highest of standards. They have put together a very talented team of meat market owners, business professionals, and cattle ranchers to roll out Texas Craft Steaks to the general public.

    We at Texas Craft Steaks are eager to provide the highest quality meats available anywhere in the world to your door step to enjoy with your friends and family.

    Ecc 2:24- Nothing is better for man than to eat and drink and enjoy his work. I have also seen that this is from the hand of God.”
    (From their website)

    I guess when and if TVC falls apart at least he has a backup plan to support his family. Ed Jr. at Fellowship won’t have a clue unless he plans to become a deep sea fishing guide in Miami.

  121. Mark R,

    “My point is being totally ignored here. I’m not hear to defend WHAT they teach, only that in teaching what they teach, they do it very well.

    (and yes I’m being very kind)”
    ++++++++++++++++

    we’re responding to the second part.

  122. elastigirl,

    no, actually i’m responding to the first part.

    Matt Chandler reminds of the guy who did a TED talk on how to public speak and persuade people into the palm of your hand… speaking words and saying absolutely nothing at all.

    A far away look here & a direct look w/nod of the head there, punctuating here and trailing off there, pausing here & rushing there…

    darn, wish i could find that TED talk. it’s so entertaining. because it’s true.

  123. elastigirl: Matt Chandler reminds of the guy who did a TED talk on how to public speak and persuade people into the palm of your hand… speaking words and saying absolutely nothing at all.

    That is my favorite ted talk!!!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S0FDjFBj8o

    If only Matt were really preaching on nothing; his teaching is not just neutral but actively harmful.

  124. Lea,

    haha, there it is!

    yes, you’re right. it is not nothing. it is actively harmful. expressed in dull and obvious terms, dressed up in profound flamboyance.

    hmmm, expressed in… dressed up in…. there’s a song in there somewhere…

  125. dee,

    Dee,
    When I said “research”, I meant it in a very loose sense – like getting a rough idea of it, unlike the technically defined “research” in academia or industry. As Dr. James Dobson was viewing lots of terrible images in a “research” setting, since he was “commissioned” to learn some facts about pornography. I don’t know all the facts about BH’s wrong deeds, but I hope that he did not go any further than checking it out, perhaps to see what kind of perverts would do such a wicked thing to children.

    No, I did not know it was a crime to view child pornography, since bad people seem to do that online these days, as I hear from the news reports. Yes, it should be a high crime for people to make/trade such videos!

    Our society is too messed up. We desperately need God’s marvelous Light to chase out the darkness in human hearts! Criminal deeds should be punished, especially when it occurs in the church.

    Thanks for the discussion.

  126. “You are receiving this email because we love and care for you, and part of that care involves informing you of significant news directly affecting Kids Village and its staff” …goes on to lie to the people.

  127. TS00: A lot of us sort of had that dream when we started having kids thirty years ago. We fled the city and the corporate world; bought some land. Many of us had dreams of a land-based life and self sufficiency. We bought the books, and learned a few skills. Some got further than others. We never managed to look like the Amish we lived so close to. I wish we had. Not that theirs is a problem free life, but they have retained an awful lot that we have lost.

    We followed that path. Found all of this same corruption was going strong in little country churches. Have the scars.

    Some Horrifying reports have come out on sex abuse among the Amish, too.

    There’s good people and bad people everywhere, intermixed; the wheat and the tares. You can’t get away from that.

  128. birdoftheair: But I wonder if Bill Hybels was doing research at the time, trying to get an idea of the evil world of child-porn? The fact that he mentioned it in his book seems to indicate that he was not trying to hide it as a secret matter. As a church leader, one gets exposed to many ugly sins that contaminate minds. I remember James Dobson saying that he wished he had never seen those images related to the research he was assigned to do about pornography.

    So just to get this straight, you think a man who secretly sexually assaulted women for years while living a lie, and who not only continued to lie about it but also angrily denounced and smeared his victims when he was exposed, might be telling the truth about “just doing research” to justify buying child porn? Why??

  129. Lowlandseer: “It all started 9 years ago when Matt Chandler was diagnosed with incurable brain cancer. He was given 2 years to live. His doctors and nutritionists had informed him to eat as “clean” as possible while continuing to get the calories he would need. They encouraged him to find food options that were organic or all-natural, hormone-free, and antibiotic-free. While fruits and vegetables were easy to find, red meat (Matt’s favorite) was not.

    As someone who supported her husband through years of intense cancer treatment, I am extremely skeptical of his claim that doctors or oncology nutritionists told him this. We talked to many oncologists through his treatment and they just don’t say stuff like that. They do give you lists of foods to avoid which are foods more likely to cause food borne illness, which can be deadly when you are on chemo. So it reads as deceptive right off the bat to me.

  130. SiteSeer,

    “…because we love and care for you, and part of that care…”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    no, you don’t, matt chandler.

    you’re just making sure you check all the right boxes.

    and then you’re co-opting the good words of “love” and “care” to control people and manipulate them, pouring syrup and all over them so it will taste good.

    and you are doing these things to protect the investment you’ve made in your career field of “professional christian”.

    no, you don’t love them. and your “care for them” is the joke of the century. more will leave as soon as they wake up and feel their skin start to crawl from all your “care”.

  131. SiteSeer: That made the whole thing “biblical”

    Ecclesiastes is a strange book to quote from. Perhaps this verse from Ecclesiastes would have been more appropriate: “Men prepare a meal for enjoyment, and wine makes life merry, and money is the answer to everything.”

  132. birdoftheair: . It just takes so much of God’s purifying and strength for people to even deal with such a topic as child-porn. It really shows human depravity!

    But I wonder if Bill Hybels was doing research at the time, trying to get an idea of the evil world of child-porn?

    He has bamboozled you into thinking that not only is it believable that a normal person would be willing to look at that, but that he must even be super spiritual to do so.

    And that, friends, is how an abuser works.

  133. Friend: Regarding Hybels: images are truncated, but the third page clearly says, “I had my assistants rent some adult videos.” How did the assistants feel?

    The one woman who came forward talked about that, how terrible it made her feel and yet, she didn’t feel like she could refuse. And he then required her to watch it with him – in his hotel room – while he was dressed in his bathrobe.

  134. HereIStand: Anyone know where the picture comes from on your “reply”?
    This is the first time I’ve posted here and I was surprised by a very old pic!

    Is it an old WordPress account, maybe?

  135. SiteSeer: she didn’t feel like she could refuse. And he then required her to watch it with him – in his hotel room – while he was dressed in his bathrobe.

    And here I thought he was sending out the deacons and elders, with instructions to comb down their pompadours and use a Sharpie to apply a pencil-thin mustache…

  136. Friend: Regarding Hybels: images are truncated, but the third page clearly says, “I had my assistants rent some adult videos.” How did the assistants feel?

    That’s as bad as MacDonald shooting photos of church elders and their wives with a pellet pistol and slashing the photo of another with a knife! I wonder how they felt when they learned that?!

    There are charlatans aplenty in the American church. “Many claim to have unfailing love, but a faithful person who can find?” (Prov 20:6)

  137. dee,

    That is upsetting to me. Pastors should care…even if they need to have a team of them to visit and minister to church members. It just seems so sad and disconnected fo conduct church that way. 🙁

  138. Marie,
    Marie, I just typed out a novel in response to this comment, and then deleted it. But yes, there are many churches where the “pastor” is not pastoring. He is preaching on Sunday morning, and considering you should be grateful for his presence.

  139. funyun: there are many churches where the “pastor” is not pastoring. He is preaching on Sunday morning, and considering you should be grateful for his presence

    I wonder which New Testament book, chapter, and verse they quote describing this role of pastor?

  140. Max: I wonder which New Testament book, chapter, and verse they quote describing this role of pastor?

    Doesn’t much matter, when the pastor dictates the meaning of scripture. Pay me to control and manipulate you. Nice racket, if you can dupe people into going for it.

  141. TS00: Pay me to control and manipulate you. Nice racket, if you can dupe people into going for it.

    “The prophets give false prophecies, and the priests rule with an iron hand. Worse yet, my people like it that way!” (Jeremiah 5:31)

    Strange isn’t it?

  142. TS00: Doesn’t much matter, when the pastor dictates the meaning of scripture. Pay me to control and manipulate you. Nice racket, if you can dupe people into going for it.

    “BEAT ME! WHIP ME! MAKE ME WRITE BAD CHECKS! AAAAAAA-MENNNNNN!”

  143. birdoftheair,

    To quote the late Jerry Falwell, “You don’t have to take the cap off of a sewer to know that it stinks.”

    Anyone claiming to do that for “research” is a liar.