How to Resign From a Church Whether or Not You Are Under Church Discipline

“As a general rule, I would say that human beings never behave more badly toward one another than when they believe they are protecting God.” 
― Barbara Brown Taylor, Leaving Church: A Memoir of Faith link


link

(This is a permanent page. It is subject to updates and corrections without notice.)

In the United States, you are allowed to resign from a church whenever you wish to do so, no matter what your covenant, church constitution or designated church leader says, even if you are under church discipline. 

Your membership in the church is voluntary according to the law. You may end a voluntary relationship at any time. Churches can get into legal trouble if they attempt to ignore your resignation and/or they attempt to pursue you or discipline you in absentia after you have officially resigned from a church.

In this post, Did Southern Baptist and Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminaries Replicate a Hotel California at Heritage Bible Chapel in Princeton, MA?, we outlined a well known case we was settled in favor of a woman who resigned from a church.

 In 1984, the NYT wrote Church vows to appeal $390,000 verdict in woman's privacy suit

Mrs. Guinn, who is divorced and a mother of four, successfully sued the elders and the church for invading her privacy by confronting her about her relationship with the town's divorced former Mayor. 

Other elders said they were still stunned by the verdict, returned Thursday, and by the realization that their beliefs, which they say are based on Scripture, may be so far outside mainstream thinking. 

…On Oct. 4, 1981, the elders took the pulpit to denounce Mrs. Guinn for the ''sin of fornication.'' This was a few days after she resigned her church membership. Unanimous Verdict 

Twelve Tulsa jurors, only four of whom called themselves regular churchgoers, unanimously decided that Mrs. Guinn's privacy had been invaded. They awarded her $205,000 actual and $185,000 punitive damages. 

Jurors also said they never doubted that the elders had erred, Two jurors said the panel wished it could have awarded her damages for harassment. ''He was single, she was single, and this is America,'' said one juror, Bodonia Freeman.

On the website Church Discipline, this case was reviewed in 2008.

By voluntarily uniting with the church, she impliedly consented to submitting to its form of religious government, but did not thereby consent to relinquishing a right which the civil law guarantees her as its constitutionally protected value. The intentional and voluntary relinquishment of a known right required for a finding of an effective waiver was never established. On the record before us Parishioner – a sui juris person – removed herself from the Church of Christ congregation rolls the moment she communicated to the Elders that she was withdrawing from membership.

WHEN PARISHIONER WITHDREW HER MEMBERSHIP FROM THE CHURCH OF CHRIST AND THEREBY WITHDREW HER CONSENT TO PARTICIPATE IN A SPIRITUAL RELATIONSHIP IN WHICH SHE HAD IMPLICITLY AGREED TO SUBMIT TO ECCLESIASTICAL SUPERVISION, THOSE DISCIPLINARY ACTIONS THEREAFTER TAKEN BY THE ELDERS AGAINST PARISHIONER, WHICH ACTIVELY INVOLVED HER IN THE CHURCH'S WILL AND COMMAND, WERE OUTSIDE THE PURVIEW OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT [775 P.2d 778] PROTECTION AND WERE THE PROPER SUBJECT OF STATE REGULATION.

While the First Amendment requires that citizens be tolerant of religious views different from and offensive to their own, it surely does not require that those like Parishioner, who choose not to submit to the authority of any religious association, be tolerant of that group's attempts to govern them. Only those "who unite themselves" in a religious association impliedly consent to its authority over them and are "bound to submit to it." Parishioner voluntarily joined the Church of Christ and by so doing consented to submit to its tenets. When she later removed herself from membership, Parishioner withdrew her consent, depriving the Church of the power actively to monitor her spiritual life through overt disciplinary acts. No real freedom to choose religion would exist in this land if under the shield of the First Amendment religious institutions could impose their will on the unwilling and claim immunity from secular judicature for their tortious acts.

Let's repeat this again for pastors who just don't get it. 

…The third point though is one many conservative churches most certainly went against the notion of church covenant. The court held that binding commitments to a church had no effect in law.

…All religious activity in the United States is consensual, a person who publicly claims not to be a member of a church is legally not a member of that church and church discipline cannot continue without consent. A church attempting to discipline a person that has withdrawn can be found to be engaging in a form of harassment.

Churches which pursue members after they have resigned can be in hot water.

In Karen Hinkley's situation which is discussed in this post, Church Discipline and Abuse, The Village Church's actions were so egregious that we were contacted by a number of attorneys who were interested in taking on the case. There is little question that had Karen not accepted Matt Chandler's apology, a large lawsuit would have been brought against the church.

In our post Churches Attempting to Force Mediation and Limit Members’ Right to Resign Under Discipline™, churches are attempting to work their way around the law that allows for voluntary termination. However, churches have a problem. They cannot or will not describe to a potential member what the church will discipline or not discipline. A blanket statement "we practice church discipline" is too broad for any reasonable individual to understand what is meant. Therefore, members may continue to resign at any time from a church.

How to resign if you are not under discipline.

When you resign, you have no guarantee that the church will not  retroactively place you under church discipline. This is what happened to Hinkley See Church Discipline and Abuse. Also, if you have resigned "nicely" and they pursue you, you may need to send the harsher letter found under the section "How to resign If you are under church discipline."

1. Send a resignation letter.

We give special thanks to Arce, who knows a thing or two, for sending this format to TWW

  • Send the following letter, return receipt requested (and tracking, in case the Post Office lets them have it without returning the card).
  •  Put the return receipt number on the heading of the letter (you can get the form with the number at the PO, before typing the letter).

Date
To the pastors and administrators at ____________ church.

This letter is notice that I am not longer a member [attendee] at _______________ church, effective with the date of this letter.
Your name

  • You must mail the letter on the date on the letter and they will not receive it for a couple of days thereafter.
  • Keep a copy, print out the tracking showing when it was delivered, keep the green card or, if it is refused, the returned letter (they are legally responsible for the content if they refuse it).

2. We do not recommend that you meet with the church leadership after sending this letter. 

On a number of occasions, people have been asked to come into the church for a meeting with a pastor(s) and elder(s). We have received reports that these meetings are often difficult, with church leaders demanding that the resigned person seek their permission to the leave the church. They may also demand proof of seeking church membership at an approved church.

These meetings often lead to retroactive church discipline or harsh words since some in leadership believe that they own you, not unlike an indentured servant since you signed their contract. Remember, you are not responsible for their feelings about your departure. Do not take their anger or disappointment personally. That is their problem.

We suggest responding to a request for a meeting in a letter like this. Again, send this letter via certified mail.

Date
Dear Pastor Joe

Unfortunately, this is an inconvenient time for us to plan a meeting. We wish the church well and thank you for your interest.
Your name 

How to resign if you are under church discipline or anticipate being put under church discipline.

Unfortunately, this is a time for you to play hardball. We know it is hard and empathize. However, keep the goal of leaving the church with minimum damage before you. Remember, when you joined the church, you had no idea what kind of men were running the church. They may have seemed nice in the beginning but grew increasingly authoritarian, often disciplining people for ill defined reasons such as *disrespect* for authority, asking too many questions, causing divisiveness, failure to support the *vision,* asking about finances, a matter of conscience, etc. 

No, you are not going crazy. This sort of thing happens frequently and keeps TWW in business. 

Here is the letter your must send in this instance.

The Steps:

  • Resign your church membership prior to the all-church announcement. Better yet, before harsh discipline is applied.
  • Keep your lips sealed.
  • Do not tell anyone that you are going to take the following action. You do not want Sally Sycophant  (we all know a few of these) to run to the pastors and report this, giving them an opportunity quickly schedule the all church gossip session.

The Letter:

We give special thanks to Arce, who knows a thing or two, for sending this format to TWW

  • Send the following letter, return receipt requested (and tracking, in case the Post Office lets them have it without returning the card).
  •  Put the return receipt number on the heading of the letter (you can get the form with the number at the PO, before typing the letter).

Date

To the pastors and administrators at ____________ church.

This letter is notice that I am not longer a member [attendee] at _______________ church, effective with the date of this letter.
As a non-member, I am no longer subject to any of your discipline as of (date on letter). After (date on letter), any publication, notice, or speaking about me by any church staff or recognized church leader is no longer authorized by me.
Any negative remark or statement about me, any encouragement that people shun me, or any action other than deleting me from your records will be evaluated for possible legal action for libel or other tort claim against the individuals involved and the organization.
If any one asks about me, refer them to me, any other action may result in a tort claim against you.
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED. You must desist from any act that may harm my reputation or me or come between me and other persons of my acquaintance. Legal action may ensue.
Sincerely,

  • You must mail the letter on the date on the letter and they will not receive it for a couple of days thereafter.
  • Keep a copy, print out the tracking showing when it was delivered, keep the green card or, if it is refused, the returned letter (they are legally responsible for the content if they refuse it).
  • Document any response or any failure to comply. If they (leadership or staff) call, listen but do not talk, except to say “I disagree” if they make a false statement about you. 
  • Document the conversation. 
  • Go to an attorney if they proceed to trash your reputation or that of your business. 
  • Do not respond by trashing the organization.
  • Keep track of all emails, texts and phone calls from the church to you. 
  • Do not participate in any meetings and do not have discussions via email or text. Remind them that you are busy and that you do not wish to be contacted. If possible put that in writing and keep copies to show an attorney if they refuse to leave you alone.

What to do after it is over.

If you attend a new church, do not tell the pastor or other members of your experience at the previous church for a prolonged period of time.  

Pastors talk with each other and are prone to believe the story of another pastor over the story of a mere church attendee. (Dee learned this the hard way). This directly violates Jesus’ admonition to not show favoritism but that is a story for another time. Also, be aware that some pastors often repeat those things told to them in confidence. 

If a pastor reports your “sins” to a new church after receiving your letter of resignation, seek legal advice.

Consider remaining a non-member in a new church, especially in the short term.

Most churches allow nonmembers to participate in most activities except for voting and church leadership. Also, they will be most happy to accept your donations and your willingness to volunteer ion church clean up day.

You know the red flags after your experience, so go slowly. There are good churches with kind pastors out there but sometimes if takes awhile to find one.

Contact TWW if we can be of assistance.

We have heard just about everything and we are willing to support you during this time.We also have lots of readers who have gone through such an ordeal. If you are going through this as you read these words, know that you are not alone and that we care.

Keep this in mind. Even if your church abuses you when you resign, the church is not Jesus. You are deeply loved by Him even if the church treats you like an indentured servant.

Here are some links to TWW posts on resigning from a church.

Churches Attempting to Force Mediation and Limit Members’ Right to Resign Under Discipline™

The Presumption and Favoritism Involved in the 9 Marks View of Church Resignation

How to Minimize Damage When Resigning From a Mark Driscoll-like Church

The Gospel Coalition Gives Potentially Problematic Legal Advice on Church Covenants and Civil Lawsuits

Did Southern Baptist and Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminaries Replicate a Hotel California at Heritage Bible Chapel in Princeton, MA?

Marie Notcheva’s Story of Church Abuse Featured in Sentinel & Enterprise News

The Allegedly Abusive Church Discipline Practices of Steve Estes: Senior Pastor of CEFC and Lecturer at Westminster Theological Seminary

9Marks and Grace to You: You Dumb Sheep Can’t Last Without an Approved™ Church to Protect You

9Marks and Church Discipline at SEBTS: What About Case Studies?

It’s Heritage Bible Chapel’s ‘Drop Dead Date’; Marie’s Father Pleads “Stand Your Ground, Marie!”

Mark Dever / 9 Marks Edict – You Cannot Resign w/o “Permission”


Comments

How to Resign From a Church Whether or Not You Are Under Church Discipline — 218 Comments

  1. Even if you’ve not been “under discipline” when you resign, prepare to lose fellowship and friendship — especially if your former church follows 9Marks teachings like the following:
    “So what’s the problem? Hebrews 10:24-25 commands us not to forsake assembling together. Therefore, any professing Christian who quits going to church is living in habitual, unrepentant sin. And the way a church addresses unrepentant sin is not by merrily sending that person on his way, but by removing their affirmation of “member” and “brother” (Matt. 18:15-17; 1 Cor. 5:1-13). When the player quits showing up on game day, the team has to take back his jersey.” https://www.9marks.org/article/pastors-dont-let-your-people-resign-into-thin-air/
    Your friends may be taught that you are living in sin for no other reason than that you resigned without permission.

  2. Having has a tour-of-duty with a 9 Marxist gulag (Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley), I would advise anyone who can afford to hire an attorney, or has one who is a family or friend and who knows what they are doing, to have an attorney send church leaders such a letter.

    They really don’t respect the common person and have no respect for people.

    At my ex-gulag they resort to criminal harassment, stalking, defamation, libel, and a variety of other thuggish behaviors.

    A dear Christian woman who works in finance and volunteers with the mentally ill in group homes and the elderly in convalescent homes was subjected to this treatment, complete with the senior pastor coming to her home and screaming at her for not “submitting to [her] husband”, as she told me when I interviewed her. She had to move out of the family home,
    disconnect her cell phone, and disconnect her email. Not even her husband, who stayed at the church, knew where she was. And really, what kind of “man” would permit his wife to be treated this way…before hundreds of church members?

    Call the police, file for a restraining order, file those police reports…against anyone who contacts you. If you are screamed or threatened by a pastor/elder, have that person arrested. I’m in Silicon Valley and it can be done. You know your community best. But truly, call the cops if they will make an arrest. And keep a paper trail.

  3. As I read this piece and thought of the agony folks go through to escape authoritarian churches, I had a vision of a shepherd beating sheep about the head and shoulders with his shepherd’s staff as they tried to flee his abusive treatment of them … trying to get in just one more whop as the poor sheep jumped over the fence.

  4. Max wrote:

    As I read this piece and thought of the agony folks go through to escape authoritarian churches, I had a vision of a shepherd beating sheep about the head and shoulders with his shepherd’s staff as they tried to flee his abusive treatment of them … trying to get in just one more whop as the poor sheep jumped over the fence.

    And I think some them would rather run them off cliffs than let them go free.

  5. ishy wrote:

    And I think some them would rather run them off cliffs than let them go free.

    Or serve them up on a platter……..

  6. Another suggestion: Keep your former pastor’s (and other leadership) phone number in your phone’s contact list, at least for awhile after leaving the church. Do this for the sole reason that, if they do attempt to call you after leaving, their name will appear on screen and you know not to answer. This saved me from answering my phone when my former pastor tried to call on at least three separate occasions, spanning up to four months after leaving the church. Thankfully I think he’s finally taken the hint that I have no intention of returning or speaking with him or leadership.

  7. AnonInNC wrote:

    Another suggestion: Keep your former pastor’s (and other leadership) phone number in your phone’s contact list, at least for awhile after leaving the church. Do this for the sole reason that, if they do attempt to call you after leaving, their name will appear on screen and you know not to answer. This saved me from answering my phone when my former pastor tried to call on at least three separate occasions, spanning up to four months after leaving the church. Thankfully I think he’s finally taken the hint that I have no intention of returning or speaking with him or leadership.

    Great tip! Caller ID if you still have a land line would also be helpful.

  8. @ Dave A A:
    Though I’ve left the faith, Christianity still has an impact in so many aspects. My wife is a Christian, I have Christian friends and society in general is still influenced.
    I came across this 9 marks article and wondered what kind wacky cult is this clown from.
    The same search also had a link to TWW so in a way, 9 marks introduced me to TWW. I had no idea the issue was so widespread.
    My wife’s church had a membership contract introduced after going through Purpose Driven in the early 2000s. It seemed off then so we didn’t sign.
    Like the reorganization. Will make it easier for those who need these resources to get to them.
    As the old School House Rock cartoons used to say “knowledge is power”
    Keep up the great work.

  9. Jack wrote:

    I came across this 9 marks article and wondered what kind wacky cult is this clown from.

    Jack, Mark Dever, the fuhrer of that wacky cult, was born and raised about 45 miles from me. I can’t tell you how glad I am that he packed up and left!

  10. AnonInNC wrote:

    Keep your former pastor’s (and other leadership) phone number in your phone’s contact list, at least for awhile after leaving the church. Do this for the sole reason that, if they do attempt to call you after leaving, their name will appear on screen and you know not to answer. This saved me from answering my phone when my former pastor tried to call on at least three separate occasions, spanning up to four months after leaving the church.

    Great suggestion. I will try to add that to the post above.

  11. Jack wrote:

    My wife’s church had a membership contract introduced after going through Purpose Driven in the early 2000s. It seemed off then so we didn’t sign.

    You guys were smart!

  12. “Church vows to appeal $390,000…….”, written in 1984 about something that happened in 1981.
    How far back in time does abusive, overreaching church discipline go? Before Eli and his sons, before Judges? Churches seem to be the most perfect, most common place for the will of man to clash with the word of God.

  13. Off topic share and an itty bitty prayer request:
    I am by no means a photographer, but I have a decent camera with a tripod, and I love to take photographs. You guys probably know how much photos by a pro cost these days, and then there’s the copyright stuff …… The photos I take are freeeeee! Copy them at your leisure!

    Well, it’s a stormy, miserable day in Todd Co., KY, but we are going to make the best of it. It’s prom night! My niece has asked to to accompany her to one of her friends houses and take photos of her, her friends, and their dates – all the way from preparing at the friend’s house to the “Grand March” at the school. My brother and his wife and their younger daughter will be there. My mom and dad will join us at the school. Storms or no, we are going to make it a good day!

    My aunt, my brother, my daughter and I graduated from that same school. It’s the only high school in the county. As a teacher, I did my intern year there. Some of my old teachers and former co-workers will be there. (PS- this means my niece will get ragged on for the remainder of the school year, tee hee!). Let it rain ….. I can’t tell you how much I look forward to this afternoon!

    The prayer request part: I ask you to please say a little prayer for the safety of our kids and their dates tonight.

  14. Deb wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Hopefully your sharing your traumatic church experience will allow others to have foresight.

    Absolutely!

    It is unfortunate that contract and covenant and discipline malpractices are trending.

  15. I took a seminary class in 1999 and the 1984 case was cited in a church ethics , with a sincere admonition from the prof to not “over reach” on church membership. His basic advice was, if someone wants to leave your church that badly a) evaluate what is going on in your church, b) let them go. It’s not worth the hassle and the church and the ex-member will be better off.

    Flip side, the YRRs must not be getting the excellent advice in their ethics classes that I received in mine since this case is the “gold standard” for talking about issues with members who leave. That is, if they take an ethics class? (snicker).

  16. Linn wrote:

    That is, if they take an ethics class? (snicker).

    Define “ethics”. I think, perhaps, the YRRs use a different dictionary!

  17. A blanket statement “we practice church discipline” is too broad for any reasonable individual to understand what is meant.

    Like “Hooliganism” under Russia’s penal code.
    Anything those in POWER say it means, at the whim of those in POWER.

  18. Nancy2 wrote:

    Linn wrote:

    That is, if they take an ethics class? (snicker).

    Define “ethics”. I think, perhaps, the YRRs use a different dictionary!

    Scientology Clamspeak?

  19. Linn wrote:

    His basic advice was, if someone wants to leave your church that badly a) evaluate what is going on in your church, b) let them go. It’s not worth the hassle and the church and the ex-member will be better off.

    But when The Party Can Do No Wrong?

  20. Nancy2 wrote:

    Churches seem to be the most perfect, most common place for the will of man to clash with the word of God.

    Because association with “GOD SAITH!” supercharges anything and everything to literally Cosmic Importance.

  21. Velour wrote:

    Having has a tour-of-duty with a 9 Marxist gulag (Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley), I would advise anyone who can afford to hire an attorney, or has one who is a family or friend and who knows what they are doing, to have an attorney send church leaders such a letter.

    “Grace Bible Fellowship” – three Christianese buzzwords in a row.

    Like “People’s Democratic Republic” in the official names of so many Third Word Hellholes. (The more adjectives about Democracy there are in a country’s official name, the nastier a dictatorship it is.)

  22. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    “SHUN THE UNBELIEVER! SHUUUUUUUN! SHUUUUUUUUN!”
    — Charlie the Unicorn

    I had a laugh when I saw Charlie. Brought back memories of my kids watching charlie. But then I had to close the window because of sudden depression thinking of life as a believer, church, Christianity, etc. If I remember, Charlie had an episode where he has a kidney stolen after he is drugged. Sort of life like.

  23. I’m coming out of the closet, folks, in honor of Joe Carter’s article over at TGC called, “Beware of Broken Wolves.” (drumroll, please)

    I am a broken wolf.

    And Joe Carter provides no solution in the article except to tell the women who follow TGC to attack the broken wolves. No dialogue, no nothing. It’s rather like L. Ron Hubbard telling the Scientologists to “attack, never defend” whenever something bad came out about the “cherch.”

  24. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    And Joe Carter provides no solution in the article except to tell the women who follow TGC to attack the broken wolves.

    He considered allowing the women in church to speak out and advise the church leaders, and decided against it. Just train the gurlz to bare their claws and fangs and attack – does that sound like sheep. …… Or wolves?

  25. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    I’m coming out of the closet, folks, in honor of Joe Carter’s article over at TGC called, “Beware of Broken Wolves.” (drumroll, please)
    I am a broken wolf.
    And Joe Carter provides no solution in the article except to tell the women who follow TGC to attack the broken wolves. No dialogue, no nothing. It’s rather like L. Ron Hubbard telling the Scientologists to “attack, never defend” whenever something bad came out about the “cherch.”

    You did a good job calling him out on Twitter.

    I am not a broken wolf. I am a bystander who got mad watching shepherds with wolf muzzles under their turbans and claws holding their staves attacking their own sheep.

    That article was ridiculous. I think TGC wised up that it was really bad press on them, and that’s why they deleted it entirely off the front page. You can find it by searching and by Joe’s profile, but it’s not linked anymore.

  26. Linn wrote:

    Flip side, the YRRs must not be getting the excellent advice in their ethics classes that I received in mine since this case is the “gold standard” for talking about issues with members who leave. That is, if they take an ethics class? (snicker).

    I’m pretty sure SBTS calls that class ” Introduction to Church Revitalization”.

  27. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    Joe Carter’s article over at TGC called, “Beware of Broken Wolves.” (drumroll, please)

    Well, if you really want to call yourself a broken wolf, then do so, but I do not agree with the label (and the article is quite insidious in discrediting the wounded).

    Many years ago I was riding through a remote part of Wales. Far ahead of us, a truck hit a tiny white lamb, and the lamb fell dead beside the road. The lamb’s mother rushed to its side, and she cried and cried.

    I have a feeling that TGC would find a way to call the grieving mother sheep, and her dead lamb, a pair of wolves.

  28. Friend wrote:

    a truck hit a tiny white lamb, and the lamb fell dead beside the road. The lamb’s mother rushed to its side, and she cried and cried.
    I have a feeling that TGC would find a way to call the grieving mother sheep, and her dead lamb, a pair of wolves.

    That story makes me wanna cry!

    But of course they do, because if you are pointing at someone and yelling “WOLF!”, they aren’t looking at you. Makes it easier for them not to notice you are actually the wolf.

  29. Joe messed up though. He should have kept it more general, but he had to go throw in that part about the broken wolves specifically being women.

    Someone on FB pointed out that the verse specifically refers to men in the ESV. So they guessed now we can apply verses about men in the ESV to women, too? XD

  30. AnonInNC wrote:

    Another suggestion: Keep your former pastor’s (and other leadership) phone number in your phone’s contact list, at least for awhile after leaving the church. Do this for the sole reason that, if they do attempt to call you after leaving, their name will appear on screen and you know not to answer. This saved me from answering my phone when my former pastor tried to call on at least three separate occasions, spanning up to four months after leaving the church. Thankfully I think he’s finally taken the hint that I have no intention of returning or speaking with him or leadership.

    One day at work I missed a call from my former pastor (who imo was an abusive, sadistic sociopath or NPD), his name showed up on caller ID. I texted back “What in the word could you possibly want?” He responded by text: “I just wanted to get back in touch with you, I miss you.” His final words to me before I left the church a few months before with my family (after I’d confronted him with the fact that he had a pattern of blatantly lying to the congregation and the board of elders) when I told him “Ed, you just lied again”, he responded “I never lie, I thank God I have no problem with lying.” At that point I walked out and never went back, taking away from that tiny church a fairly substantial portion of their monthly income (which is probably why he tried to contact me and bring our family back into the fold). So I texted back to him: “I’ll meet with you Ed when you explain to me what you mean by ‘I never lie, I thank God I have no problem with lying’.” Total and utter silence, it’s been four years and he still hasn’t replied to that text.

  31. Friend wrote:

    Many years ago I was riding through a remote part of Wales. Far ahead of us, a truck hit a tiny white lamb, and the lamb fell dead beside the road. The lamb’s mother rushed to its side, and she cried and cried.
    I have a feeling that TGC would find a way to call the grieving mother sheep, and her dead lamb, a pair of wolves.

    I think it’d be more likely that they’d be the ones driving the truck. Remember what Mark Driscoll said about “blessed subtraction” and throwing people under the Mars Hill bus?

  32. dee wrote:

    You guys were smart!

    The interesting thing is my wife was raised Pentecostal. She had never heard of such things. Obviously it was going on in the eighties but it seems this was not widespread until recently as in last 15 years or so.

  33. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Having has a tour-of-duty with a 9 Marxist gulag (Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley), I would advise anyone who can afford to hire an attorney, or has one who is a family or friend and who knows what they are doing, to have an attorney send church leaders such a letter.
    “Grace Bible Fellowship” – three Christianese buzzwords in a row.
    Like “People’s Democratic Republic” in the official names of so many Third Word Hellholes. (The more adjectives about Democracy there are in a country’s official name, the nastier a dictatorship it is.)

    Spot on, H.U.G.

  34. Friend wrote:

    Well, if you really want to call yourself a broken wolf, then do so, but I do not agree with the label (and the article is quite insidious in discrediting the wounded).

    I don’t disagree with you. However, I’ve found that attackers are disconcerted when you take their labels and say, “yeah, so I am a ‘broken wolf,’ ‘pawn of the drug industry,’ ‘religiously intolerant,’ but really, what does your using the label to start out with say about you?”

    The story about the sheep and the lamb just hit me right in the feels. *sigh*

  35. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    I’m coming out of the closet, folks, in honor of Joe Carter’s article over at TGC called, “Beware of Broken Wolves.” (drumroll, please)
    I am a broken wolf.
    And Joe Carter provides no solution in the article except to tell the women who follow TGC to attack the broken wolves. No dialogue, no nothing. It’s rather like L. Ron Hubbard telling the Scientologists to “attack, never defend” whenever something bad came out about the “cherch.”

    Here’s the link for anyone interested:

    Beware of Broken Wolves by Joe Carter
    https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/beware-of-broken-wolves

    I do wonder about Carter’s motives with this.

    I wonder if Carter’s essay is less about protecting “sheep” or “sound doctrine,” or if it’s just another way to silence people who have been truly hurt by church, Christians, and by certain doctrine.

    Is it a silencing gimmick? That’s what it comes across as.

    I thought his piece was rather condescending towards women and is possibly a case of Benevolent Sexism (please google the term if you’ve never heard of it before):

    Snippet by Joe Carter:

    Many of us men—including elders called to protect their flock—remain silent hoping that one of our sisters in Christ will speak up before the popular and prominent female Broken Wolves in our midst devours another one of our own.

    But if not, we probably won’t speak up.

    The brokenness of Broken Wolves often act as a shield that protects them from any legitimate criticism because we fear being viewed as harsh or unloving towards women.

    The result is in failing to speak out we leave the women (and men) in our churches vulnerable to be ravaged.

    I also find this interesting on a few other levels.

    These complementarian guys are often fairly strident and insistent on men owning the church and being the only ones to call the shots, and they feel comfortable telling women to sit down, shut up, and take a seat.

    I don’t agree with complementarianism any longer (I used to be one), but even if it were true, as I’ve said on older threads, the Bible says it’s up to older, wiser women to lead and teach the younger women, not a man’s place.

    But here we see Carter basically imploring women to shut other women up.

    I find it hard to believe that complementarians truly give a rat’s behind about a woman’s spiritual development or contamination. I wonder if the real concern here is that males in the church may also start to pay attention to the broken she-wolves, and consider that maybe doctrines such as gender comp are sexist, unbiblical, and hurt men and women?

  36. @ Muslin, fka Dee Holmes:

    Another thing I wanted to add. In my experience, churches are usually pretty rotten and lousy at supporting the broken.

    In my times of need and hurt, when I went to Christians at churches near by, or to Christian relatives, I was wounded further. I was scolded or shamed by church people or Christians by going to them and seeking emotional support or an encouraging word or two.

    I don’t think most churches are as nice and loving towards “broken sheep” or “broken wolves” as Carter is assuming.

    My experience was just the total opposite, and I’ve seen other Christians who also received cold shoulders or shame in their time of need when they went to other Christians or churches for help.

  37. Daisy wrote:

    Is it a silencing gimmick?

    Yes. No question. Life circumstances can and should cause us to ask hard questions about what we truly believe. But this is not allowed in their system. They want people who will just shut up and color.

  38. Nancy2 wrote:

    Just train the gurlz to bare their claws and fangs and attack – does that sound like sheep. …… Or wolves?

    I kind of hinted at this in my post above, but I wonder why a comp would rely on women to keep order?

    If he’s so keen on male leadership, why doesn’t he step up, or advise other men to step up? Something about his view doesn’t seem completely consistent to me.

  39. Daisy wrote:

    here we see Carter basically imploring women to shut other women up.

    Seems to me he is not imploring but goading. This tactic is more common among the female cultural enforcers, who go on about older women’s duty to instruct younger women about submission, being keepers in the home, etc. The thought of this–of setting older wives on younger single women, brides, and new mothers–absolutely makes my skin crawl.

    Wisdom does not work that way.

  40. Daisy wrote:

    In my times of need and hurt, when I went to Christians at churches near by, or to Christian relatives, I was wounded further.

    I have several of those t-shirts from different churches. My faith is probably stronger than ever, but I am closer to being a done than ever. I’m not sure what to make of that dichotomy.

    I think the only reason I keep going to my SBC church is because I want to see what will happen next (morbid curiosity?). A few years ago I had one of those mandatory meetings with the elders because I questioned the direction of the church. Only one of the elders was really interested in pursuing church discipline, but he seemed to have convinced the others that I was the problem. I think I threw him off by how assertive I was with him and how and prepared I was for the meeting (I also cancelled the first meeting on short notice after the elders failed to tell me what they wanted to talk about). Also, my wife took very good notes at a meeting where one of the church staff lied to a sizeable group of us (she is one of the rare ones who can write shorthand). She sent her notes to he elders after things got a bit heated. My preparation, combined with her notes, and the fact that only one of the elders really had a bad attitude, resulted in a big “never-mind” moment at that meeting. It turned out ok, but I lost my enthusiasm for church in that encounter. On the other hand, no one is trying to shut me up anymore when I ask hard questions. I sometimes wonder if my dust-up with the elders put the brakes on the YRR momentum. I had not heard of New Calvinism back then, but in hindsight it had many of the marks of a Calvinistic takeover that I’ve read about here, but it did not have enough critical mass to make it happen. But I think it’s just a matter of time before the curse comes back.

  41. @ dee:
    Maybe it’s worth pointing out that many churches simply don’t pursue folks who leave. This might look like indifference, but isn’t it just plain decency?

    If I were trying out a new church now, I would ask, “What happens when people decide to leave?”

  42. @ Nancy2:
    Just now reading your comment. I will be praying for these young folks. We had quite a rainstorm here in the early evening. Not a good time to be on the road.

  43. Daisy wrote:

    https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/beware-of-broken-wolves

    TGC articles normally don’t get many comments, but this one has over 100. Kenneth Garrett posted some interesting comments in the last few hours asking Joe Carter if the article is targeting abuse survivor blogs like TWW or SSB. Joe denies it, but still will not name names. Perhaps TGC is burying this articles so that the Deebs don’t get more attention. In any case, it’s worthwhile to scan the comments for that article – many point out how useless it is to highlight a somewhat vague problem and then refuse to give examples.

  44. Daisy wrote:

    If he’s so keen on male leadership, why doesn’t he step up, or advise other men to step up? Something about his view doesn’t seem completely consistent to me.

    It’s simple. If they want someone in the church to get accused of being rude, inconsiderate, or even vicious, they want it to be the women …… not the men.

  45. Whew! Doing church in America is becoming exhausting! There’s just too much noise in most churches, too many hoops to jump through, too much control and manipulation, too many teachings and traditions of men … for a believer to enter into God’s rest in the midst of unrest. Quite frankly, it’s easier to find that place in God after you leave the hubbub of a typical Sunday outing to church, when you can get alone with the Lord to feel His presence and hear His voice. Too many church folks know this to be true, but resign themselves to it rather than resign from it.

  46. @ Daisy:

    If he was talking about Michelle Higgins and Truth’s Table, it would certainly explain why he won’t name a name, but I don’t think that’s the case. I believe that’s his most winsome response to the #ThingsOnlyChristianWomenHear trend from Twitter.

  47. I was thinking of turning in a letter of resignation, but after not attending I think they decided I am no longer a member. I had been helping with a couple of projects and people stopped contacting me. They give out Wiggios to members, and they have removed me from the notifications. I may still send in a letter of resignation.

    I actually have been going to a different church every Sunday(I have visited a few more than once), and am very slow to join a new church.

  48. Friend wrote:

    Seems to me he is not imploring but goading. This tactic is more common among the female cultural enforcers, who go on about older women’s duty to instruct younger women about submission, being keepers in the home, etc. The thought of this–of setting older wives on younger single women, brides, and new mothers–absolutely makes my skin crawl.
    Wisdom does not work that way.

    I thought about this today, since there’s a miniseries of “The Handmaid’s Tale” coming out next week. I thought about the different levels of women. You have:

    * Wives like Serena Joy–in the TGC world they’d be the wives of the leaders. They might write books, but they’re really subservient to their husbands. Think of the wife of John Piper, bringing her husband tea up three flights of stairs.
    * Aunts like Aunt Lydia–these are who TGC are trying to get to come out and attack the “broken wolves.” In Gilead, they’re armed with truncheons and cattle prods. In TGC…?
    * Marthas–who could be the single women in TGC churches, who are supposed to “serve.” Think of the rare articles in TGC-land directed to single women, and how they’re supposed to serve the married couples.
    * Econowives–the wives of the soldiers, not high in class, but looking to the Wives and the Aunts for guidance and direction. I’d equate these to the female pewpeons.
    * Unwomen–the women who were useless to the direction of TGC, oops, *Gilead*, the women who said No, the women who claimed the name. In the TGC bubble, I would be an Unwoman.

    I didn’t include the “Handmaids” because we don’t have the problem which drives the narrative of the book, which is that the Wives are barren. But there’s enough similar.

    I told Joe Carter he should read “The Handmaid’s Tale.”

  49. Stan wrote:

    If he was talking about Michelle Higgins and Truth’s Table, it would certainly explain why he won’t name a name, but I don’t think that’s the case. I believe that’s his most winsome response to the #ThingsOnlyChristianWomenHear trend from Twitter.

    I hadn’t heard about this podcast, but a quick search found that it’s apparently it’s freaking out some of the Reformed types (like Todd Pruitt). Some person went to the trouble of doing a transcript of one of the recent episodes and are highlighting it as full of heresy and apostasy. It just reminded me yet again of how truly *tiny* the Calvinista/pseudo-Reformed/TGC/9Marx bubble really is.

  50. I went back to the “Broken Wolves” page here-
    https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/beware-of-broken-wolves

    To skim over the long list of comments at the bottom. I estimate I must have read about one half to 3/4 of them (kind of hard to tell when you have to keep clicking the ‘show more comments’ button).

    Someone left a comment, a pro-Joe Carter one, saying how the commentators there disagreeing with Carter are willfully obtuse or something to that effect. I’m afraid it’s the opposite.

    Joe Carter and his T.G.C. (whatever they are called) buddies, and the folks defending Carter’s piece in the comment box over there, are either…

    – very unsympathetic to people who have been wounded by life or by Christians, or they are
    – extremely ignorant of how Carter’s article is coming across to folks who have been hurt.

    I’m not saying correct doctrine is unimportant, but, the number of people willing to throw hurting people under the bus to keep sound doctrine intact or at the forefront of Christianity is alarming and very sad.

    The type of people leaving comments at that page (and Joe himself) are going to keep driving people away from the faith and/or churches with the lack of understanding, lack of compassion I’m seeing in the comments box.

    They really do lack the ability to stand back, re-read Carter’s article, and see how it can come across poorly to anyone who’s been wounded by pain in life, or by a pastor, etc.

  51. Stan wrote:

    If he was talking about Michelle Higgins and Truth’s Table, it would certainly explain why he won’t name a name, but I don’t think that’s the case. I believe that’s his most winsome response to the #ThingsOnlyChristianWomenHear trend from Twitter.

    I didn’t read all of the Twitter back and forth by Carter and whomever else, so I don’t know who he had in mind.

    In the comment box on his page, there were a lot of references by pro-Joe types to Beth Moore, Jen Hatmaker, and a few other women Christian preachers or authors.

    I’m not exactly sure who Carter was targeting.

    It came across to me as though Carter was targeting anyone in general who has ever been hurt by a Christian, a doctrine, or by a pastor, and who goes on to argue against that person or doctrine.

    For example, it looks to me as though Carter might consider something like Julie Anne (of SSB) a “broken wolf,” or any of the ex-Mars Hills members who started blogs detailing their dealings with Driscoll, as being “broken wolves,” because they were not only hurt by a doctrine / denomination/ or by a preacher but chose to blog about it (go public with it).

    Carter especially seems to feel that way if the person in question decided to trash a doctrine Carter feels is biblical.

    For example, an ex Mars Hill member may have come to the conclusion that gender complementarianism is false and support Christian gender egaltarianism now, in part because they felt the treatment they got at Driscoll’s hands, or at his church, was sexist under gender complementarianism.

    Suppose further this person now blogs or tweets openly in support of egal and rejects comp. I think this is the sort of person Carter is blabbering on about – someone was hurt under doctrine X (which he feels is “biblical”), but now that person argues against X.

    I don’t think it occurs to guys such as Carter that his interpretation of the Bible on some topics may be wrong.

    This is one of the things I find so very annoying about Christians such as Carter and all the folks in the comment box over there who are supporting him.

    Who’s to say that anything and everything the “broken wolves” are teaching are in error or are unbiblical?

    Maybe the ‘broken wolves’ are correct on a thing or two and Joe Carter is the one who is in error.

  52. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    I hadn’t heard about this podcast, but a quick search found that it’s apparently it’s freaking out some of the Reformed types (like Todd Pruitt). Some person went to the trouble of doing a transcript of one of the recent episodes and are highlighting it as full of heresy and apostasy. It just reminded me yet again of how truly *tiny* the Calvinista/pseudo-Reformed/TGC/9Marx bubble really is.

    Is this what all the hub-bub is about? Here is a page by someone who clearly does not like the Truth Table podcast:

    Gender Apartheid: Full Transcript of Truth’s Table Podcast
    http://faithandheritage.com/2017/04/gender-apartheid-full-transcript-of-truths-table-podcast/

  53. Daisy wrote:

    In the comment box on his page, there were a lot of references by pro-Joe types to Beth Moore, Jen Hatmaker, and a few other women Christian preachers or authors.
    I’m not exactly sure who Carter was targeting.
    It came across to me as though Carter was targeting anyone in general who has ever been hurt by a Christian, a doctrine, or by a pastor, and who goes on to argue against that person or doctrine.

    I think he left it vague on purpose so people would go after anyone not toeing the line. He definitely threw in some bait, but why only target a segment of dissenters when you can go after any who disagrees?

  54. Daisy wrote:

    They really do lack the ability to stand back, re-read Carter’s article, and see how it can come across poorly to anyone who’s been wounded by pain in life, or by a pastor, etc.

    Here is waht Joe Carter wrote last night about TWW:

    I reread your original comment and noticed you mentioned “The Wartburg Watch.” (I don’t know how I missed that the first time.)

    Let me first say that I never thought of WW as a “survivor blog.” Like most of the Christian community I’ve always thought of them as the main group of “discernment” bloggers—a group that exists solely to bash other Christians.

    Second, let me say that didn’t have them in mind at all when I wrote this article. To be honest, I don’t give them much thought at all anymore because I don’t respect them at all. The Bible says we should shun such divisive persons (Titus 3:10) and I have.

    I’ve dealt with WW for over a decade and they are one of the most hateful groups on the internet. If they take the side of survivors it is only because it gives them one more tool to bash Christians. Jesus said “everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another” (John 13:35). For more than a decade WW been completely unloving to the Bride of Christ. All they care about is trashing other Christians who do not subscribe to their particular theological beliefs. In that mission they’ve lied about and slandered some good people, something I won’t tolerate.

    That’s why I don’t deal with them anymore. Like just about every other reputable Christian community (Reformed, non-reformed, complementarian, egalitarian, et al.) I want to have nothing to do with that group of backbiters.

  55. Apparently, he’s a bastion of Christian love and speaks for all other Christian groups now. Of course, if you consider anyone not a Christian who’s not a “Gospel Coalition” Christian, then no, you’re not going to find much love, because everyone else considers you a wolf.

  56. Daisy wrote:

    It came across to me as though Carter was targeting anyone in general who has ever been hurt by a Christian, a doctrine, or by a pastor, and who goes on to argue against that person or doctrine.

    I wonder why he leaves Martin Luther off of his list of Broken Wolves because he surely fits the definition (at least from a RCC perspective). Jesus fits the definition as well (from a Jewish perspective) – he was pretty badly broken by the religious system 2000 years ago. It seems pretty clear to me that some “Broken Wolves” serve an important corrective function within the body. But if one is set on their ideology, then any dissenter is seen as a wolf. The real problem with Joe Carter is what appears to be an inability for self-examination.

  57. Ken F wrote:

    But if one is set on their ideology, then any dissenter is seen as a wolf. The real problem with Joe Carter is what appears to be an inability for self-examination.

    Sometimes that’s true about Calvinista, but I get the impression Mr. Carter is a true wolf who is completely aware of being predatory. I don’t think his article would have been so vague, otherwise. I was reading some of his other articles, and they are pretty subtle but seem much more psychologically manipulative. I put him in the same category as Mohler and Strachen–propagandists for the Gospel Coalition takeover of churches and souls.

    Most TGC pastors are pastors only because some other Calvinista pastor decided they were, while many female pastors went through long ordination processes with seminary, vettings and psychological checks. I was just looking at the UMC process for ordination, and it’s tough. I think ELCA has similar processes. These are historical denominations with female pastors that can actually claim historical precedence over Calvinistas. They started in the 70s, the height of the cult shepherding movement, which really isn’t a boon for them.

  58. Seekeroftruthweb wrote:

    I was thinking of turning in a letter of resignation, but after not attending I think they decided I am no longer a member. I had been helping with a couple of projects and people stopped contacting me. They give out Wiggios to members, and they have removed me from the notifications. I may still send in a letter of resignation.
    I actually have been going to a different church every Sunday(I have visited a few more than once), and am very slow to join a new church.

    If the church where you a member practices Biblical Church Discipline, you may want to send them a certified/return receipt letter and tell them that you are no longer a member. Do not give any explanations. Keep it short and sweet.

    Your call.

  59. Ken F wrote:

    oe Carter wrote last night about TWW

    I have never heard of Joe Carter before.

    But having read what he wrote about the Deebs (two lovely Christian women — Dee and Deb) I’ll just “consider the source” about Joe and what he has to say about the rest of us.

    He seems to be projecting his own issues on the TWW community. Jesus talked about people like Joe…taking the speck out of another’s eye while not taking the log out of his own eye.

  60. @ Velour:

    It wouldn’t affect me, as the church I was part of is completely independent. They had been part of Christian International, but, at some point, they secretly pulled out. So, they will likely just let me be(though they may say I am a bad influence).

  61. Seekeroftruthweb wrote:

    @ Velour:

    It wouldn’t affect me, as the church I was part of is completely independent. They had been part of Christian International, but, at some point, they secretly pulled out. So, they will likely just let me be(though they may say I am a bad influence).

    There are constitutional reasons for sending them a letter and resigning, no matter whom they are or are not affiliated with.

    The appellate courts have ruled that religious membership is voluntary. I would encourage you to protect your First Amendment rights to religious freedom and to formally resign. This also puts the church on notice…and they can’t pursue you, disparage you etc.

  62. Daisy wrote:

    the number of people willing to throw hurting people under the bus to keep sound doctrine intact or at the forefront of Christianity is alarming and very sad

    Thinking you have sound doctrine is for nought if you throw hurting people under a bus! “If I have all the secret truths and mysteries and possess all knowledge, and if I have [sufficient] faith so that I can remove mountains, but have not love (God’s love in me) I am nothing (a useless nobody).” (1 Corinthians 13:2 AMP)

    Much of New Calvinism is a religion characterized by cold love where no man careth for your soul. Sure, you can find cold-hearted folks in many corners of Christendom, but New Calvinism has more than its share.

  63. Ken F wrote:

    Perhaps TGC is burying this articles so that the Deebs don’t get more attention.

    Well, Joe left a characteristically winsome comment about TWW in the comment thread. Joe is obvious and will not admit it even when he is confronted with it. The wolves are women who bring up things the men do not want to talk about. And he wants the female enforcers to step up their game and bring the other female wolves back into line.

    I think that the events of this past summer may have revealed some cracks in the foundations of the dominant Culture of Complementarianism. The bizarre post by Piper and martyrdom for the faith of Complementarianism is another indicator of the creeping desperation. These are not signs of confidence.

  64. Gram3 wrote:

    Joe left a characteristically winsome comment about TWW in the comment thread

    “I never thought of WW as a “survivor blog.” Like most of the Christian community I’ve always thought of them as the main group of “discernment” bloggers — a group that exists solely to bash other Christians.” (Joe Carter)

    What “Christian” community is he talking about?! Bashing other Christians?! These folks are living in a bubble.

  65. Max wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:
    Joe left a characteristically winsome comment about TWW in the comment thread
    “I never thought of WW as a “survivor blog.” Like most of the Christian community I’ve always thought of them as the main group of “discernment” bloggers — a group that exists solely to bash other Christians.” (Joe Carter)
    What “Christian” community is he talking about?! Bashing other Christians?! These folks are living in a bubble.

    TGC, of course. Anyone not under their “loving authority” is clearly not a Christian of the right “Gospel”.

  66. Max wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:
    Joe left a characteristically winsome comment about TWW in the comment thread
    “I never thought of WW as a “survivor blog.” Like most of the Christian community I’ve always thought of them as the main group of “discernment” bloggers — a group that exists solely to bash other Christians.” (Joe Carter)
    What “Christian” community is he talking about?! Bashing other Christians?! These folks are living in a bubble.

    Oh, and Carter is a good friend of CJ Mahaney. Who has no undergraduate or theological training, appointed himself a pastor, has had major scandals that even his colleagues (specifically Harris) have hinted are true, but of course, he’s an elite and not subject to the same rules as TGC has for the rest of us and we should just shut up and accept their “loving authority”.

  67. Gram3 wrote:

    cracks in the foundations

    It’s obvious from the article and his responses in the comment thread that Joe Carter is one of those cracks in the New Calvinist foundation. He uses the typical NC approach to declaring he is on the high road and that any who question his wisdom is on the low road. How did the reformed movement become so lucky to end up with so many arrogant folks like this in their ranks?! Like attracts like.

  68. Gram3 wrote:

    The wolves are women who bring up things the men do not want to talk about. And he wants the female enforcers to step up their game and bring the other female wolves back into line.

    Oh, so Joe wants to release female New Calvinists who have bought the reformed complementarian lie to attack broken, hurting women?! Have women in the new reformation become so indoctrinated with this aberrant faith that they have tossed aside their compassion for others and would respond to a “Sic ’em” command? Are they in their right mind?! Have the New Calvinist teachers/preachers convinced them that any who question are the enemy and must suffer a harsh blow? Why do I get this image of Zombie She-Wolves attacking Broken Sheep? Good Lord, who gave Joe Carter a microphone?!

  69. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    I didn’t include the “Handmaids” because we don’t have the problem which drives the narrative of the book, which is that the Wives are barren. But there’s enough similar.

    Having not yet read the book, I’m willing to get a bit more dystopian. The Quiverfull movement equates children with arrows to fire in a future religious war. I knew Quiverfull founders who clearly believed that white American Christians needed to outbreed the enemy and gird for war. The pressure is on young wives to produce a dozen babies, so they are something like married Handmaids (“encouraged” to stay home, not drive or vote, limit girls’ education, etc.).

    Apart from this, there is a lot of infertility in the US. Plenty of folks believe that egg donation, surrogacy, foster care, and adoption are (righteous or evil) means for the rich to obtain children from the poor. These are complex and agonizing issues for all involved, with plenty of room for honest misunderstanding and deliberate distortion.

  70. Max wrote:

    Oh, so Joe wants to release female New Calvinists who have bought the reformed complementarian lie to attack broken, hurting women?!

    I wonder what Joe’s relationship is with his father?

    It seems like so many of these NeoCalvinist men had either alcoholic fathers or absent fathers. Most of them lack good role modeling about what it means to be a man. And they go to extremes about men versus women, in an attempt to compensate for feeling inferior and just not knowing how it’s done.

  71. Max wrote:

    What “Christian” community is he talking about?!

    I guess he means anyone outside his bubble.

    This statement by him is also bizarre: “All they care about is trashing other Christians who do not subscribe to their particular theological beliefs.” What “particular theological beliefs” characterize people who participate in discussions on TWW? I’ve never been able to figure that out. TWW posters and commenters seem to cover quite a mix of Christian, non-Christian, and non-theistic viewpoints.

  72. Gram3 wrote:

    some cracks in the foundations

    By the way, there are no cracks in the real foundation. Unfortunately, any time a religious foundation cracks, poor confused souls fall out of the building which has not been built on Christ. When the dust of New Calvinism settles, the greatest mission field on the planet will be among the disillusioned masses exiting its ranks.

  73. Jack wrote:

    The same search also had a link to TWW so in a way, 9 marks introduced me to TWW.

    I was introduced by John Piper. After his leave of absence to work on several species of pride, I was curious to see what he’d learned, and ended up here.

  74. Max wrote:

    Have women in the new reformation become so indoctrinated with this aberrant faith that they have tossed aside their compassion for others and would respond to a “Sic ’em” command?

    Considering that complementarian espousing churches have the highest divorce rate in the nation, lots of Comp women have woken up to its abuses and have lived it. And then they finally say “no more”.

    Comp men are being dumped in record numbers.

    And as one woman on Twitter pointed out when Owen S. and company gathered for their big Comp event, “At least they’ve put all of the men together in one room that I would NEVER consider dating!”

  75. Max wrote:

    Oh, so Joe wants to release female New Calvinists who have bought the reformed complementarian lie to attack broken, hurting women?! Have women in the new reformation become so indoctrinated with this aberrant faith that they have tossed aside their compassion for others and would respond to a “Sic ’em” command? Are they in their right mind?! Have the New Calvinist teachers/preachers convinced them that any who question are the enemy and must suffer a harsh blow? Why do I get this image of Zombie She-Wolves attacking Broken Sheep? Good Lord, who gave Joe Carter a microphone?!

    From an essay I’m writing right now, on this precise point:

    Then there is this paragraph, which deserves a very close look, because it exposes so much that is wrong with the thought coming from Joe Carter and TGC:

    Many of us men—including elders called to protect their flock—remain silent hoping that one of our sisters in Christ will speak up before the popular and prominent female Broken Wolves in our midst devours another one of our own. But if not, we probably won’t speak up. The brokenness of Broken Wolves often act as a shield that protects them from any legitimate criticism because we fear being viewed as harsh or unloving towards women. The result is in failing to speak out we leave the women (and men) in our churches vulnerable to be ravaged.

    There are two reasons why women allied with TGC and its churches would not speak up against female “broken wolves.” First: TGC women will not speak up because they have little, if any, authority to speak, and you will not give it to them because you see women in general as second-class descendants of Eve the Temptress. You would not have their backs. Why would they speak up? They’d be left to hang out to dry. This comment you wrote on the TGC Facebook page is instructive:

    The Gospel Coalition ***why not suggest that the pastors go to a trusted female leader and ask her to broach the subject?***

    Good point. I wrestled with whether I should advocate pastors do that and decided against it.

    In almost ever[y] case I think it is would be prudent to ask female leaders for help. They are likely to have insights into the issue that men may not have. But I think there is a danger in having elders push off their biblically mandated responsibility to protect the sheep onto women in the church. I think that’s causing a lot of the problems we have now.

    Should female leaders help with that effort? Absolutely. But it can be too easy for pastors to say “I’ll let the women deal with that themselves” and let abuses continue because they are afraid to do their jobs.

    -Joe Carter

    The other reason your women will not speak up is because if they say something wrong, it is very likely that you will turn on them and call them “broken wolves” also. They may show sympathy to a position that you would not show. They may not express a doctrinal point correctly. (And God knows you have so very, very many doctrinal points which must be held correctly in order to be right with the TGC.) They may be nice to the female “broken wolves” and not express the appropriate sternness in the face of the “sins” of the “broken wolves.” What woman would want to take that risk? If she steps out of line according to the male gatekeepers, she could lose her position and whatever small authority she’s been granted within her church and the TGC superstructure. She might even be subjected to discipline herself Of course she isn’t going to speak up.

  76. @ Muslin, fka Dee Holmes:
    A woman must submit …….. Women must remain silent in the churches ….
    If they do order their captive women to submit to their authority and speak out against the “broken wolves” in their midst, they are disobeying “women must remain silent…” X2. They would cause the women to disobey by ordering them to obey – oxymoron, as well as a bunch of morons.

  77. Velour wrote:

    they’ve put all of the men together in one room that I would NEVER consider dating!

    Young woman considering attendance at a New Calvinist church near you, heed this warning!

  78. Max wrote:

    Oh, so Joe wants to release female New Calvinists who have bought the reformed complementarian lie to attack broken, hurting women?! Have women in the new reformation become so indoctrinated with this aberrant faith that they have tossed aside their compassion for others and would respond to a “Sic ’em” command?

    If you starve a group of captive carnivores, constantly dangling raw meat in font of their faces while never letting them have the meat, what happens when you finally turn those carnivores loose?

  79. Velour wrote:

    “At least they’ve put all of the men together in one room that I would NEVER consider dating!”

    Maybe it’s the new way of making a vow of chastity…

  80. Nancy2 wrote:

    If you starve a group of captive carnivores, constantly dangling raw meat in font of their faces while never letting them have the meat, what happens when you finally turn those carnivores loose?

    Lori Alexander
    Debi Pearl
    Nancy Campbell
    Zsuzsanna Anderson
    Lisa Pennington
    …and that glassy-eyed smiling lady who always has time to wave at me, but who never takes her children to the dentist

  81. Friend wrote:

    Lori Alexander
    Debi Pearl
    Nancy Campbell
    Zsuzsanna Anderson
    Lisa Pennington

    Mary Ka$$ian
    Nancy DeMoss
    Mary Mohler
    Dorothy Patterson
    ……. 2 of our church deacons’ wives;
    ~~one of whom has never spoken to me, while the other will only speak to me when it’s absolutely necessary …….

  82. Velour wrote:

    And as one woman on Twitter pointed out when Owen S. and company gathered for their big Comp event, “At least they’ve put all of the men together in one room that I would NEVER consider dating!”

    All I could think: it would have been like shooting fish in a barrel, literally.

  83. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    I told Joe Carter he should read “The Handmaid’s Tale.”

    good advice for Joe, to be asked to consider what might eventually happen when people are no longer respected as human persons with dignity …… I say ‘what might happen’, when actually in our world, it is both ‘now’ and ‘to come’, and may God have mercy

    Dystopian literature written some time ago today seems far more relevant. Atwood’s novel speaks loudest to people who still have a conscience that is troubled by the loss of dignity imposed on other human persons because of gender. If nothing more, Joe might come to understand how such people feel. But good advice, none the less.

  84. what troubles is that neo-Cals have daughters ….. why would any Christian person want to put their beloved child through such hell on Earth as the position of a subordinate human person, silenced, unable to choose their own direction in life, expected to operate like a ‘clown car’ baby-producing-factory, dressing in ridiculous clothing and sporting mullet hair cuts with the back hair hanging down in waves, unable to hold a job because of lack of training and education in being self-supporting in times of need????? That seems so opposite what ‘love’ for a daughter looks like to me. The ‘image’ they want for their daughters seems so cruel and out of touch with reality, certainly out of touch with a daughter’s feelings as a human person. End of rant.

  85. Christiane wrote:

    what troubles is that neo-Cals have daughters ….. why would any Christian person want to put their beloved child through such hell on Earth as the position of a subordinate human person, silenced, unable to choose their own direction in life

    It can be very damaging to parent-daughter relationships. Most of the neo-Cals with kids I know just believed this stuff didn’t apply to them and their daughters. This is kinda the backfiring of neo-Cals setting up this line between elites and pew peons–everyone thinks they are an elite until they get tossed out or abused by leadership.

    Single neo-Cal guys are very vocal about wanting a handmaid wife. And a good number I’ve known stayed single unless they have parents who orchestrated an arranged marriage. Though, the very first YRR I knew had a number of girls chasing him. A couple of them asked me if I liked him because they were scoping out the competition, and sometimes I literally gagged just because of the thought of it. Disgusting. I couldn’t stand to be in the same room with him, and if we were in the same room, he would continually bait me because I didn’t hang on every word he said.

    But, I imagine a lot of neo-Cals are like the fundamentalist parents I’ve known–telling their daughters their only worth is in getting married young and producing grandchildren. I think some of those neo-Cals are the fundamentalists kids I knew from college, turning the abuse they suffered onto their own children.

  86. ishy wrote:

    Single neo-Cal guys are very vocal about wanting a handmaid wife. And a good number I’ve known stayed single unless they have parents who orchestrated an arranged marriage.

    Sadly, most of those are divorced now, many because of infidelity, though some for abuse. You tell men that it’s the women’s’ fault for not keeping men faithful or pleasing their every whim, and they will stray because they know they will still be treated as princes in the church.

  87. ishy wrote:

    You tell men that it’s the women’s’ fault for not keeping men faithful or pleasing their every whim, and they will stray because they know they will still be treated as princes in the church.

    sins of the fathers ….

    I see people who can get free of the bad examples of the past as having the ability to gain wisdom from experiencing the consequences of sin, but for those trapped in the ‘system’, the cycle is doomed to repeat itself UNTIL there is a strong enough intervention for someone to say ‘enough’.

    When Josh Duggar was young, he was of course the apple of his parents’ eyes, but when more siblings came one after the other, his comment was ‘they just kept coming’ …..

    now his forgiving wife Anna is pregnant again with baby number five

    were Josh’s words ‘they just kept coming’ a sign that maybe it was not all roses in the Duggar garden in the eyes of this oldest son? What is not processed and resolved in wholesome ways might bring on reactions that are destructive in the future. I think Josh was ‘running away’ when he rebelled. But still, is what he was ‘running’ from continuing in his own generation unabated and unresolved? Was there any ‘wisdom’ gained by all the hurt to everyone? Or not?
    In ‘patriarchy’ the women are not the only victims; those that use them as ‘lesser beings’ are also harmed.

  88. Dave A A wrote:

    I was introduced by John Piper.

    I cannot remember if it was Mahaney or Driscoll who brought TWW to my attention. Let’s just say I knew of Joe Carter and the Usual Suspects before there was a Gospel Coalition and well before I knew anything about TWW.

  89. ishy wrote:

    Sadly, most of those are divorced now, many because of infidelity, though some for abuse.

    Though the Official Story is always “SATAN Entered into My Handmaid/Wife and…”

  90. Christiane wrote:

    why would any Christian person want to put their beloved child through such hell on Earth as the position of a subordinate human person, silenced, unable to choose their own direction in life, expected to operate like a ‘clown car’ baby-producing-factory, dressing in ridiculous clothing and sporting mullet hair cuts with the back hair hanging down in waves, unable to hold a job because of lack of training and education in being self-supporting in times of need?????

    Because they can be married off to other Patriarchs’ spawn to cement alliances between Great Houses — House Lannister to House Baratheon or (more germane to the subject of female spawn) the last known Stark heir to the North to House Bolton.

  91. ishy wrote:

    You tell men that it’s the women’s’ fault for not keeping men faithful or pleasing their every whim, and they will stray because they know they will still be treated as princes in the church.

    Speaking of Highborn Houses Baratheon and Bolton…

  92. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    Sadly, most of those are divorced now, many because of infidelity, though some for abuse.
    /
    Though the Official Story is always “SATAN Entered into My Handmaid/Wife and…”

    After their divorces, I noticed a lot of them left the church completely or turned and went to megachurches where they were just a number and nobody really cared what they did.

    The belief that your spouse is going to fix all your problems and provide for all your needs is a fairy tale. That doesn’t seem to stop the church from pushing it real hard.

  93. Max wrote:

    Whew! Doing church in America is becoming exhausting! There’s just too much noise in most churches, too many hoops to jump through, too much control and manipulation, too many teachings and traditions of men … for a believer to enter into God’s rest in the midst of unrest

    You know who’s got the lightest yoke and easiest burden these days?
    The Catholics, aka ROMISH POPERY.

  94. Friend wrote:

    Seems to me he is not imploring but goading. This tactic is more common among the female cultural enforcers, who go on about older women’s duty to instruct younger women about submission, being keepers in the home, etc. The thought of this–of setting older wives on younger single women, brides, and new mothers–absolutely makes my skin crawl.

    Well, in Extreme Islamic cultures it’s usually the older married women who do most of the Honor Killings.

    Or are we talking Aunts with cattle prods?
    Use the prod on enough Handmaids and you might be promoted to Commander’s Wife.

  95. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    However, I’ve found that attackers are disconcerted when you take their labels and say, “yeah, so I am a ‘broken wolf’,

    Worked for Fluttershy when confronted by Discord in the garden maze.
    He had to corrupt her with a direct Chaos Magic mind-whammy instead of the usual trickery.

  96. @ Ken F:

    Joe C. really gets WW wrong. It’s attitudes such as his that drive people away from church or from the Christian faith itself.

  97. Ken F wrote:

    I wonder why he leaves Martin Luther off of his list of Broken Wolves because he surely fits the definition (at least from a RCC perspective). Jesus fits the definition as well (from a Jewish perspective) – he was pretty badly broken by the religious system 2000 years ago. It seems pretty clear to me that some “Broken Wolves” serve an important corrective function within the body. But if one is set on their ideology, then any dissenter is seen as a wolf. The real problem with Joe Carter is what appears to be an inability for self-examination.

    Your quote there is right on the money. Exactly how I feel.

  98. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    You know who’s got the lightest yoke and easiest burden these days?
    The Catholics, aka ROMISH POPERY.

    They and the mainline Protestants, who are amazingly un-alarmed that somebody might lose salvation the second they crawl off the microscope slide.

  99. @ Dave A A:
    Daisy wrote:

    Joe C. really gets WW wrong. It’s attitudes such as his that drive people away from church or from the Christian faith itself.

    Mirele posted some great comments in reply to his TWW comments.

  100. Max wrote:

    Oh, so Joe wants to release female New Calvinists who have bought the reformed complementarian lie to attack broken, hurting women?! Have women in the new reformation become so indoctrinated with this aberrant faith that they have tossed aside their compassion for others and would respond to a “Sic ’em” command? Are they in their right mind?! Have the New Calvinist teachers/preachers convinced them that any who question are the enemy and must suffer a harsh blow? Why do I get this image of Zombie She-Wolves attacking Broken Sheep?

    I have no idea what Lori Alexander’s theological beliefs are (if she’s Calvinist or not), but she is a woman who brainwashes and guilt trips other women into following an extreme version of complementarianism at her blog.

    (Julie Anne or her guest writers sometimes dissect Lori’s teachings on the SSB Blog)

  101. Christiane wrote:

    what troubles is that neo-Cals have daughters ….. why would any Christian person want to put their beloved child through such hell on Earth as the position of a subordinate human person, silenced, unable to choose their own direction in life, expected to operate like a ‘clown car’ baby-producing-factory, dressing in ridiculous clothing and sporting mullet hair cuts with the back hair hanging down in waves, unable to hold a job because of lack of training and education in being self-supporting in times of need????? That seems so opposite what ‘love’ for a daughter looks like to me.

    I was raised in this stuff, maybe not a version as extreme, though. (My parents were okay with me attending college, which I did.)

    I think my parents loved me in their own way, but they were a product of their times and up-bringing. That’s partly why they raised me to believe in such strict gender role stuff.

    My mom having grown up in a family with an alcoholic father (my grandfather) and a religious Mom made her think it’s a Christian woman’s duty to be a doormat for abusive people.

    And they get taught this junk in their church or the Christian TV shows of the time, that it was supposedly God’s wish for women to be doormats and the man to be in charge.

    So, if you are a lady who is committed to God, you go along with it to please God, even though it feels wrong, and something seems off about it.

  102. @ Daisy:

    Post Script. My family were not Calvinists, though. We were Southern Baptists, but not of the Calvinist variety, but my parents believed in much of the same gender role stuff that Neo Cals do.

  103. @ Muslin, fka Dee Holmes:
    @ Daisy:

    Or the #ThingsOnlyChristianWomenHear trend just set him off to spew how he feels about years of being criticized by lowly women.

    Michelle Higgins fits the profile right? Female, grievances about her treatment in conservative Reformed churches informing her relatively progressive points of view, and people fear criticizing her. But then again, Michelle Higgins is associated with Mika Edmondson, who received a paean from Al Mohler last summer. So I don’t think he’s going to pick that fight. https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/ugly-stain-beautiful-hope-my-response-to-mika-edmondson

    Now if he’s talking about Ann Voskamp and no one else, even I’d leave the proper gospel(TM) centered comment: “I’m so blessed by your wisdom, Pastor Joe!” But Tim Challies found out one doesn’t criticize Voskamp.

    Now here’s a question that’s purely rhetorical, because directions to judge our fellow Christians for our perception of their impure states of mind has been part of Tim Keller’s gospel(TM) for some time. If he wants women to tell other women to stop reading Jen Hatmaker, that’s not going to personally damage anyone. So how is it more responsible, mature, above-the-fray, to refuse to name any obviously controversial public Christian figures and let people take the instruction to attack their fellow church members?

    @ Ken F:

    I would love Joe to tell us about the egalitarian resources he finds reputable. But, this is a great new entry on “what people are saying about Wartburg Watch!” One of the most hateful groups on the internet? Sorry, Stormfront, looks like we’re the place to go for hate!

  104. Friend wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    You know who’s got the lightest yoke and easiest burden these days?
    The Catholics, aka ROMISH POPERY.

    They and the mainline Protestants, who are amazingly un-alarmed that somebody might lose salvation the second they crawl off the microscope slide.

    I think you are right. The young these days go out to examine the world and they have to try to incorporate their observations with the faith that has been handed down to them …… for a while they may appear to walk away, and some may stay away for a long, long time;
    but many are actively processing what is meaningful to them and what remains is their OWN digested beliefs, not something they were ‘told’ or ‘required to believe’ but something they have discovered to be true while on their own journey in this world: they make the faith their own in this way, and that is not such a bad thing at all.

    In the Catholic and mainline Protestant faith communities, a person is considered to be gifted with a moral conscience as guided by the Holy Spirit.
    In catholic circles, this applies: “Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. “He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters.”

    no microscope needed ….. the individual human person is to given the dignity to turn inward to his own moral conscience where he will find God as his Witness

  105. Daisy wrote:

    So, if you are a lady who is committed to God, you go along with it to please God, even though it feels wrong, and something seems off about it.

    but at some point, that realization that ‘it feels wrong’ comes into focus as God’s way of giving you enough discernment to sort out the good way from the ‘off’ way, and then, pleasing God means taking responsibility for saying ‘no’ to abuse and to say ‘no more’ to abusers….

    Samuel Clemens (aka Mark Twain) wrote this:
    ” ‘re-examine all you have been told in school or church or in any book, and dismiss whatever insults your own soul’ ”

    If something ‘feels wrong’ or ‘seems off’ to you, that is an important red light …. take the gift and thank the Giver of Gifts, Who sends discernment in the form of ‘promptings’ of what it is that is not right for us.

  106. Stan wrote:

    If he wants women to tell other women to stop reading Jen Hatmaker, that’s not going to personally damage anyone.

    Another thing I’ll toss out there. If Carter’s attitude is that grown Christian women should have who they read or listen to chosen for them, he’s treating grown women like children.

    Let adult women read or listen to whom they wish and allow them to make up their own minds as to what they think about that author or speaker’s views.

    I really do not need a Joe Carter putting people in my life to tell me who or what I should or should not read or listen to! I’ve got my own brain and can determine things for myself.

  107. Christiane wrote:

    the individual human person is to given the dignity to turn inward to his own moral conscience where he will find God as his Witness

    Yes indeed, and yet the more punitive congregations know that threats and dogma keep a certain number of people in line and in church. But I have to ask myself: would I want the young adults in my family to sit in the pew out of fear? Or would I rather they sleep or work on Sunday mornings, and make their own decisions–even as I know this means that they might never get to know this God who loves them so much?

    I would want them to go to church out of love, or an openness to hearing something, or a sincere desire to go along with the family’s tradition. If they lack that, I’m not sure that sitting in church will have much effect on their faith.

  108. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    You know who’s got the lightest yoke and easiest burden these days?
    The Catholics, aka ROMISH POPERY.

    Or those of us who just stay home. The only yoke I carried today was in my eggs.

  109. Christiane wrote:

    what troubles is that neo-Cals have daughters …

    … who run like hell when they graduate from high school. My wife had a friend whose father was an authoritarian pastor. She lived a miserable life – her father controlled her every move. As soon as she was able, she left home and never looked back.

  110. @ Daisy:

    I absolutely think they blame women for certain low quality Christian publishing. One time I saw a dude on Twitter saying that Jen Wilkin is one of the few female Christian authors he allows his wife to read.

  111. Gram3 wrote:

    I cannot remember if it was Mahaney or Driscoll who brought TWW to my attention.

    Both played a role for me– but the immediate cause was when Mahaney took a leave of absence and I discovered it on TWW while searching about Piper’s.

  112. Stan wrote:

    I absolutely think they blame women for certain low quality Christian publishing. One time I saw a dude on Twitter saying that Jen Wilkin is one of the few female Christian authors he allows his wife to read.

    If my husband did that, I would only allow him to eat through a straw.

  113. Max wrote:

    Christiane wrote:

    what troubles is that neo-Cals have daughters …

    … who run like hell when they graduate from high school. My wife had a friend whose father was an authoritarian pastor. She lived a miserable life – her father controlled her every move. As soon as she was able, she left home and never looked back.

    those authoritarians who want to tie their adult offspring down do not realize that ‘not all who wander are lost’ (Tolkien)

    independence is a good sign for a young person, but when a parent can’t ‘let go’, they do more damage than they realize so sure sometimes kids ‘bolt’ and good for them that they escape a situation where a parent could not honor proper boundaries and so would cripple their child

  114. Stan wrote:

    I would love Joe to tell us about the egalitarian resources he finds reputable.

    But he won’t name names.

  115. Jack wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    You know who’s got the lightest yoke and easiest burden these days?
    The Catholics, aka ROMISH POPERY.
    Or those of us who just stay home. The only yoke I carried today was in my eggs.

    Laugh of the day, Jack! You are on a roll!!!

  116. Nancy2 wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    And as one woman on Twitter pointed out when Owen S. and company gathered for their big Comp event, “At least they’ve put all of the men together in one room that I would NEVER consider dating!”
    All I could think: it would have been like shooting fish in a barrel, literally.

    LOL!

  117. Nancy2 wrote:

    I commented twice on the BW thing. Both of my comments were deleted.

    Well, after all, Joe Carter IS an editor. Dear Nancy2, someone might have read your comments and been influenced by them.

  118. On another site, Nate Sparks is chatting with a lady and posted a screen cap of a comment Joe Carter made to another person on the TGC site.

    Sparks seems to feel that the main point of Carter’s post is to hit people over the head with submission and authority.

    In the comments, Carter says this to someone else (on the TBC site):

    “The essential difference between a wayward sheep and a wolf is accountability to loving, biblical authority”

    These guys are just obsessed, utterly obsessed, with authority, when Jesus said his followers are NOT to be obsessed with it.

  119. @ Stan:

    That he “allows” his wife to read??? His wife doesn’t need his permission to read a book by whomever.

  120. Deebs,

    In a strange sort of way, Joe Carter actually complimented you when he referred to TWW as a “discernment” blog. One thing’s for sure, there is not much spiritual discernment in the tribe he hangs out with.

  121. Daisy wrote:

    “The essential difference between a wayward sheep and a wolf is accountability to loving, biblical authority”

    Maybe Joe Carter should do a word study on accountability to see how it is supposed to be used. Hint: believers are accountable to God, not to each other or to elders. For as much as they stress sola scriptura, they don’t believe it in practice.

  122. Nancy2 wrote:

    I commented twice on the BW thing. Both of my comments were deleted.

    Amazingly, they let my one comment go through.

  123. Max wrote:

    2, someone might have read your comments and been influenced by them.

    I checked again a little while ago – my comments were actually up. In one of them, I questioned Carrter’s use of the phrase “submission to authority”.
    ‘Whose authority – God’s authority, or man’s authority. Which authority should Karen Hinkley have submitted to: God’s authority, or the authority of her pedophile husband and Matt Chandler?’

  124. Nancy2 wrote:

    I checked again a little while ago – my comments were actually up.

    I saw your excellent comments there. Good job. That post is getting many more comments than a typical TGC post.

  125. Max wrote:

    In a strange sort of way, Joe Carter actually complimented you when he referred to TWW as a “discernment” blog. One thing’s for sure, there is not much spiritual discernment in the tribe he hangs out with.

    Discernment- 1) the ability to judge well; 2) (in Christian contexts) perception in the absence of judgment with a view to obtaining spiritual direction and understanding

    Uhm, and Joe Carter thinks that’s a bad thing?

  126. Hi All,

    Just a note that there are many prayer requests on today’s E-Church, if you feel like praying for folks this week.

    Also, does anybody have any ideas about how to pay for Billy, Shauna’s son in Texas (Dee wrote about their church abuse story/Billy being abused by a church member)…to be able to attend a Christian summer camp in Northern California. If anybody has any frequent flier miles that they could give him, or some other idea…great. He will need to fly from
    Houston, Texas, to Sacramento, CA. I think it’s mid-June. I don’t know his date of return to Texas. Please post any good answers over on E-Church.

    Many thanks.

  127. Daisy wrote:

    In the comments, Carter says this to someone else (on the TBC site):
    “The essential difference between a wayward sheep and a wolf is accountability to loving, biblical authority”
    These guys are just obsessed, utterly obsessed, with authority, when Jesus said his followers are NOT to be obsessed with it.

    Ummmm…and I was supposed to submit, along with other former church members, to the bullying senior pastor at Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley…the guy with the fake Ph.D. from a diploma mill, the other advanced fake degree, the claim to a teaching credential that California’s Teacher Credentialing supervisors said was also a lie…and the state had NEVER credentialed the guy to teach.

    Joe Carter must think we’re as dumb as rocks!

  128. Stan wrote:

    Now here’s a question that’s purely rhetorical, because directions to judge our fellow Christians for our perception of their impure states of mind has been part of Tim Keller’s gospel(TM) for some time. If he wants women to tell other women to stop reading Jen Hatmaker, that’s not going to personally damage anyone. So how is it more responsible, mature, above-the-fray, to refuse to name any obviously controversial public Christian figures and let people take the instruction to attack their fellow church members?

    Because Joe Carter wants people to be unsettled, to look over their shoulders, and to worry that they might be “broken wolves” if they challenge their pastors/elders/leaders’ authority. Initially, I thought Carter’s remark about getting women to attack other women was about TWW. Then I realized it was probably more about Rachel Held Evans and Jen Hatmaker. And then I read the comments on the post and at TGC’s Facebook page and realized this was also an attack on unrepentant (in the minds of Carter and TGC) LGBT persons. But finally I realized Carter’s article is to make EVERYONE except for the leaders unsure and uncertain.

  129. Nancy2 wrote:

    Discernment- 1) the ability to judge well; 2) (in Christian contexts) perception in the absence of judgment with a view to obtaining spiritual direction and understanding

    Uhm, and Joe Carter thinks that’s a bad thing?

    “Questions lead to Thinking.
    Thinking leads to Doubt.
    Doubt leads to Heresy.
    Heresy must be dealt with.
    Blessed is the mind too small for Doubt.”
    — Warhammer 40K

  130. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    Because Joe Carter wants people to be unsettled, to look over their shoulders, and to worry that they might be “broken wolves” if they challenge their pastors/elders/leaders’ authority.

    And to Joe Carter I just have to say “woof woof”!

    Takin’ a bite outta church crime and nipping at the heels of authoritarian church leaders,

    Velour
    P.S. I see myself as a Belgian Malinois dog, like a German Shepherd but even tougher.

  131. P.S. And besides, “discernment” in Christianese means seeing DEMONS! DEMONS! DEMONS! behind every bush and under every bed. Like a Witchfinder-General of the Burning Times smelling out Witches behind every bush and under every bed.

  132. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    P.S. And besides, “discernment” in Christianese means seeing DEMONS! DEMONS! DEMONS! behind every bush and under every bed. Like a Witchfinder-General of the Burning Times smelling out Witches behind every bush and under every bed.

    They need to look behind the pulpits.

  133. Daisy wrote:

    Another thing I’ll toss out there. If Carter’s attitude is that grown Christian women should have who they read or listen to chosen for them, he’s treating grown women like children.

    It’s not just women though on that point. They also encourage men to only read Calvinista authors. Can’t have the masses thinking for themselves​ now, can you?

  134. ishy wrote:

    Daisy wrote:
    Another thing I’ll toss out there. If Carter’s attitude is that grown Christian women should have who they read or listen to chosen for them, he’s treating grown women like children.
    It’s not just women though on that point. They also encourage men to only read Calvinista authors. Can’t have the masses thinking for themselves​ now, can you?

    I started a blog about my abusive ex-NeoCalvinist/9Marxist/John MacArthur-ite gulag (Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley).

    I always make it a point to Tweet and put on its Facebook, the links to Nobel Prize-winners who think critically about life and the world. And women scientists and engineers.
    I want people who begin to think about escaping the gulag to know that there is so much more out there in the world, and that there are many successful thinkers besides white NeoCalvinist males.

  135. Velour wrote:

    there are many successful thinkers besides white NeoCalvinist males.

    Serious question: Which white neo-Calvinist males are successful thinkers?

    Less serious: They strike me as a rather narrow-minded bunch, but perhaps I just don’t know which ones I should be permitted to read.

  136. Friend wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    there are many successful thinkers besides white NeoCalvinist males.
    Serious question: Which white neo-Calvinist males are successful thinkers?
    Less serious: They strike me as a rather narrow-minded bunch, but perhaps I just don’t know which ones I should be permitted to read.

    I agree with you and thought someone would raise this question…about ‘serious thinkers’ in NeoCal circles.

    But for those who are in its heady grasp…the leaders seem so convincing and intellectual to so many for a long time.

  137. Nancy2 wrote:

    Joe Carter thinks that’s a bad thing?

    I think he was being sarcastic, an attitude that is a close-cousin to arrogance which most New Calvinists are plagued with.

  138. Nancy2 wrote:

    They need to look behind the pulpits.

    I used to question folks who thought there was a devil behind every bush … until I discovered that there were a lot of devils behind church bushes. The enemy of our soul likes to camp out in church; if he didn’t, TWW wouldn’t have anything to write about!

  139. @ Max:
    Given the fact that Joe Carter is refusing to name names of the Big Wounded Wolves, he’s just using a straw man argument, which he and the YRR crowd rail at dissenters for doing all of the time! Do as I say, not as I do!

  140. Nancy2 wrote:

    Given the fact that Joe Carter is refusing to name names of the Big Wounded Wolves, he’s just using a straw man argument, which he and the YRR crowd rail at dissenters for doing all of the time! Do as I say, not as I do!

    Yeah, except it’s a straw man argument where he basically makes an open call for other women to go after whoever they think is a “broken wolf”.

  141. ishy wrote:

    Yeah, except it’s a straw man argument where he basically makes an open call for other women to go after whoever they think is a “broken wolf”.

    In truth, he is commanding the church wolves to attack injured sheep!

  142. ishy wrote:

    Yeah, except it’s a straw man argument where he basically makes an open call for other women to go after whoever they think is a “broken wolf”.

    “Other women” as in Aunts with electric cattle prods?
    (And the Aunts who are best keeping the Handmaids in line can be promoted to Commander’s Wives…)

  143. Velour wrote:

    I agree with you and thought someone would raise this question…about ‘serious thinkers’ in NeoCal circles.
    But for those who are in its heady grasp…the leaders seem so convincing and intellectual to so many for a long time.

    “You don’t need any intellect to be an Intellectual.”
    — G.K.Chesterton, one of the Father Brown Mysteries

    “If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, BAFFLE THEM WITH B.S.!”
    (Especially if you use a LOT of Big Words in your Word Salad…)

  144. Velour wrote:

    I want people who begin to think about escaping the gulag to know that there is so much more out there in the world, and that there are many successful thinkers besides white NeoCalvinist males.

    But do they hold the Keys to the Kingdom like White Neo-Cal Males?

  145. Nancy2 wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    P.S. And besides, “discernment” in Christianese means seeing DEMONS! DEMONS! DEMONS! behind every bush and under every bed. Like a Witchfinder-General of the Burning Times smelling out Witches behind every bush and under every bed.

    They need to look behind the pulpits.

    “Nowhere do we corrupt so effectively as at the very foot of the altar!”
    — Screwtape

  146. Stan wrote:

    @ ishy:
    Yes, women are considered children in the neoCal world.

    With Benefits (penetrate colonize conquer plant nudge nudge wink wink know what I mean know that I mean…)

  147. How to Resign From a Church Whether or Not You Are Under Church Discipline

    A little lighter take on the subject, in the words of the Prophet Paul Simon:

    “Just slip out the back, Jack
    Make a new plan, Stan
    You don’t need to be coy, Roy
    Just get yourself free

    “Hop on the bus, Gus
    You don’t need to discuss much
    Just drop off the key, Lee
    And get yourself free…”
    — Paul Simon, “50 Ways to Leave Your Lover”

  148. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Examples of Loving Biblical Authority:
    http://i1.wp.com/www.nakedpastor.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/lamb-thoughts.jpg

    Not that I totally disagree with this cartoon of the T.G.C., Joe Carter, Mark Driscoll, Neo Calvinist flavor of “biblical authority,” but…

    I’d say to be a bit more accurate, I’d show the guy on the right as Cartman from “South Park” in his police uniform, clubbing the poor sheep over the head with a bat, and yelling at the sheep,
    “You will respect my authori-tie! You will respect my biblical authori-tie!”

  149. ishy wrote:

    Even the Calvinista women are arguing with him now about how dumb and vague it is.

    Really? Interesting. I haven’t visited that page in a day or two. I don’t know if I can stand to visit it again.
    I wonder if Joe Carter type of guys secretly enjoy any and all negative attention they receive?

    I mean, I wonder if this guy is getting some kind of satisfaction that he’s getting so much attention.

    There are people who seem to thrive on constant, negative, critical attention (I am not one of them).

    I do wonder if guys such as Carter write stuff like that “Broken Wolf” page suspecting that it will receive a ton of push back, and he chuckles in glee to himself at the thought, after he hits the “publish” button on his blog, knowing the ton of replies and Tweets it will generate.

  150. Daisy wrote:

    I do wonder if guys such as Carter write stuff like that “Broken Wolf” page suspecting that it will receive a ton of push back, and he chuckles in glee to himself at the thought, after he hits the “publish” button on his blog, knowing the ton of replies and Tweets it will generate.

    Is he being PERSECUTED???

  151. Daisy wrote:

    In the comments, Carter says this to someone else (on the TBC site):

    “The essential difference between a wayward sheep and a wolf is accountability to loving, biblical authority”

    In the attempt to bring people into their cult, these ‘leaders’ have declared that they have assumed the role of the Holy Spirit in the private consciences of their victims:
    these ‘leaders’ have placed THEMSELVES in the position of THE ‘authority’ who COMMANDS and demands compliance to THEIR will, rather than providing a servant-leadership role of guidance and of pointing to Christ in all things.

    I take exception to the words of Joe in this regard:
    a sheep will know his Shepherd’s Voice and if a ‘sheep’ does not hear Christ in the neo-Cal authoritarian male-headship model of leadership,
    then the ‘sheep’ needs to RUN away from that model.

    I think I know who the ‘wolves’ are, yes, filled with pride and self-importance that judges others, and is devoid of compassion and empathy found in those who are servants of the Word.

  152. Christiane wrote:

    Daisy wrote:
    In the comments, Carter says this to someone else (on the TBC site):
    “The essential difference between a wayward sheep and a wolf is accountability to loving, biblical authority”
    //
    In the attempt to bring people into their cult, these ‘leaders’ have declared that they have assumed the role of the Holy Spirit in the private consciences of their victims:
    these ‘leaders’ have placed THEMSELVES in the position of THE ‘authority’ who COMMANDS and demands compliance to THEIR will, rather than providing a servant-leadership role of guidance and of pointing to Christ in all things.

    I refer you to point #1 (though most of the others are applicable to them):
    https://www.culteducation.com/warningsigns.html

  153. Christiane wrote:

    Yep. ‘cult’ behavior for sure
    That is a great link, Ishy.

    Strangely enough, heard about them in seminary. Took class in cults at the 2001 SBC Convention with people from all the seminaries. So thanks SBC! I’m sure you had no idea it’d be used against you one day!

  154. ishy wrote:

    Christiane wrote:
    Yep. ‘cult’ behavior for sure
    That is a great link, Ishy.
    Strangely enough, heard about them in seminary. Took class in cults at the 2001 SBC Convention with people from all the seminaries. So thanks SBC! I’m sure you had no idea it’d be used against you one day!

    No, guess it had to be 2004 or so. My brain is starting to confuse all this stuff…

  155. Nancy2 wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    I refer you to point #1 (though most of the others are applicable to them):
    https://www.culteducation.com/warningsigns.html
    //
    Mark Dever could have written that to describe CHBC!!

    Seriously, most stuff coming out of Calvinista churches and the SBC institutions reads like they used a cult warning list to create their covenant.
    #5: “There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.”

    And NAMB and IMB?
    #3: “No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.”

  156. Off topic anncmt# 1: this one is for all of the dog lovers, but Dee in particular. Another poor, unwanted puppy has found a home!
    We live in a little, narrow dead end road. Where the blacktop ends, the road splits into two old roadbeds that go down into the bottoms – coyotes, foxes, snakes etc. There are 5 homes on this road, my house being the first, and my second cousin’s house being the last. People who have unwanted animals have a tendancy to drive out our road and abandon unwanted pets down a half mile or so past where the blacktop ends (that’s how we got our full-blooded Great Pyrenees).
    My cousin’s son came to visit us yesterday, with a friend and a puppy (10 weeks old or so) in tow. He asked if we had lost a puppy. It appears that someone else has abandoned the puppy. This puppy had showed up on his front porch the night before, filthy, covered in ticks and fleas. The puppy had 4 or 5 srcrapes. With hide missing – road rash? Caleb and friend fed him and gave him a bath. The puppy was trembling, scared senseless, and he had 4 or 5 scrapes with hide missing – road rash?
    Caleb wants the puppy. His mom is not a dog person, but she said Caleb could keep this puppy if no one else claimed him. My house was Caleb’s last stop. I gave him some puppy food to do until his mom get’s off work today. Caleb is 15, he has 2 cats, he will take care of the puppy.
    Yay! Another unwanted puppy is wanted!

  157. Off topic anncmt#2:
    A pound and a half of northern beans cooked in the pressure cooker with a pound of bacon fried, diced and tossed in the cooked beans. Gallon of sweet tea made. Got tomato relish, bread & butter pickles, pickle spears, pickled beets, pickled squash……. Gonna put some cornbread in the oven here in a little bit. Y’all pull up a chair and have a seat.
    Wish we could do this for real!

  158. Nancy2 wrote:

    Off topic anncmt#2:
    A pound and a half of northern beans cooked in the pressure cooker with a pound of bacon fried, diced and tossed in the cooked beans. Gallon of sweet tea made. Got tomato relish, bread & butter pickles, pickle spears, pickled beets, pickled squash……. Gonna put some cornbread in the oven here in a little bit. Y’all pull up a chair and have a seat.
    Wish we could do this for real!

    I’m glad the puppy found a good home!

    And I have a huge pile of collards that need cooking up that would go perfect with all that.

  159. ishy wrote:

    And NAMB and IMB?
    #3: “No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.”

    Yeah, well. When my husband decided, without my knowledge, that “we” (ahem) were going to pack up and move 1300 miles and go plant a church, I went ballistic enough. When I found and read all of the NAMB documentation, demands, and contracts …….. wooooo hooooooo. “Unsubmissive” would not have come close to describing my behavior!

  160. ishy wrote:

    And I have a huge pile of collards that need cooking up that would go perfect with all that.

    Uh huh!!! I have blanched turnip greens in the freezer, but I didn’t thaw any today – gonna fix a quart of them tomorrow night to go with leftovers!

  161. Nancy2 wrote:

    I have blanched turnip greens in the freezer, but I didn’t thaw any today – gonna fix a quart of them tomorrow night to go with leftovers!

    Sadly, grasshoppers are eating all my turnip greens. They look very holy…

  162. ishy wrote:

    They look very holy

    LOL.
    Seriously though, there has to be a way to get rid of those grasshoppers without putting poison on the greens. We spray tomatoes, corn, etc, but I’m leery about doing that to greens – to hard to wash safely, IMO.

  163. ishy wrote:

    Going to try diatomaceous earth, but I just bought it today and it’s been raining

    Let me know if it works, please!

  164. Daisy wrote:

    I do wonder if guys such as Carter write stuff like that “Broken Wolf” page suspecting that it will receive a ton of push back, and he chuckles in glee to himself at the thought, after he hits the “publish” button on his blog, knowing the ton of replies and Tweets it will generate.

    That’s Net Trolling.
    Negative Attention is still ATTENTION!

    “I’m gonna be
    I’m gonna be
    I’m gonna be FAMOUS!!!!!”
    — opening theme, Total Drama Island

  165. Nancy2 wrote:

    People who have unwanted animals have a tendancy to drive out our road and abandon unwanted pets down a half mile or so past where the blacktop ends (that’s how we got our full-blooded Great Pyrenees).

    I want a dog. I wish I were closer. I would adopt one left on your road.

    But I’m all of the way in California. Kinda a transport challenge.

  166. Nancy2 wrote:

    he’s just using a straw man argument, which he and the YRR crowd rail at dissenters for doing all of the time!

    The New Calvinists have used social media very effectively to spread the reformed movement. They get upset with others who use the same technology to expose their errors in belief and practice.

  167. Velour wrote:

    I want a dog. I wish I were closer. I would adopt one left on your road.

    You would have your hands full babysitting Hungry Jack and Alligator Allie!

  168. Seekeroftruthweb wrote:

    I may still send in a letter of resignation.

    I think it may be wise. you never know when your ex pastor will attend a 9 Marks “How to slap around a former member” conference and decide he will apply it to you.

  169. @ Max:
    Frankly, the level of meanness of the editor of The Gospel Coalition is eyebrow raising. This is the guy who represents them? More today.

  170. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Stan wrote:

    @ ishy:
    Yes, women are considered children in the neoCal world.

    With Benefits (penetrate colonize conquer plant nudge nudge wink wink know what I mean know that I mean…)

    From my experience in Dallas young adults communities, you’re not wrong.

  171. dee wrote:

    Frankly, the level of meanness of the editor of The Gospel Coalition is eyebrow raising. This is the guy who represents them?

    Why should we be surprised by that?! Meanness is a cousin to arrogance. I guess when you believe you are the sole keeper of truth, it’s OK to be mean when you defend it.

  172. Velour wrote:

    It seems like so many of these NeoCalvinist men had either alcoholic fathers or absent fathers. Most of them lack good role modeling about what it means to be a man. And they go to extremes about men versus women, in an attempt to compensate for feeling inferior and just not knowing how it’s done.

    HYPERMASCULINITY.
    Define “being a MAN” entirely in terms of power struggle and aggression.
    As a 1943 OSS psych profile described a certain Adolf Hitler (alcoholic abusive father and all). (Though AH didn’t seem that much into the usual Third Person of the Hypermasculinity Trinity: Big Stud womanizing.)

  173. Stan wrote:

    From my experience in Dallas young adults communities, you’re not wrong.

    “Dallas” as in the DFW megachurch scene, setting of “Good Christian Bitches”?

  174. Max wrote:

    The New Calvinists have used social media very effectively to spread the reformed movement.

    So has ISIS.

  175. Nancy2 wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    I want a dog. I wish I were closer. I would adopt one left on your road.
    You would have your hands full babysitting Hungry Jack and Alligator Allie!

    But when I return to California…I would need my very own dog, wouldn’t I?
    I would be lonesome without a dog….

    Sigh.

  176. My spouse emotionally abuses me for past 5 years. The church has perpetuated my abuse through marriage counseling and stopped me accessing domestic violence services. I wanted to change churches to get help but they said I will be disciplined if I leave, “that they will come after me”. He has all my money, I can’t get a job. I’m in a foreign land. Any prayers or advice? Thank you.

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