Last thing I remember, I was
Running for the door
I had to find the passage back
To the place I was before
"Relax, " said the night man,
"We are programmed to receive.
You can check-out any time you like,
But you can never leave! "
-Hotel California, Eagles link
Marie Notcheva
At the end of last week, we heard that other people who have been hurt by Heritage Bible Chapel have come forward, and one is interested in telling her story. This is sad yet affirming information. It is sad because others have been hurt by the actions of Heritage Bible Chapel. It is affirming because these new stories are remarkably similar to that of Marie Notcheva. In other words, multiple stories appear to indicate a disturbing Heritage Bible Chapel playbook on how to treat abused women.
1. Why we think the two pastors at Heritage Bible Chapel are prone to discipline abused women who seek a divorce.
Tim Cochrell is the lead pastor.
Tim recently earned his Ph.D. in Leadership from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. This seminary is the flagship seminary for for the NeoCalvinist movement and is the home of the Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, the nexus of the complementarian movement. Women are not allowed to serve on the Board of Directors. It is also the seminary from which the controversial Eternal Subordination of the Son theology sprang. This seminary admires John Piper who does not believe that divorce and remarriage are permitted for anything, including adultery. He observes, with a chuckle, that a married women should endure abuse for a season.
Kevin Wright is the pastor of counseling and family ministries.
He has a Masters of Divinity from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary (SEBTS) and is working on a Doctorate of Ministry in Biblical Counseling at SEBTS. Southeastern rides the coattails of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary so one can be sure that his theological bent is identical to Tim.
Folks, let this be a warning to you. If you see that men in a particular church are being educated at either of these seminaries, you will guaranteed yourself a heavily authoritarian leadership style which embraces the right to control your comings and goings at a church.
Women, in the complementarian system, are to be submissive to their husbands.
Many pastors teach that a wife must submit to her husband, even if he is abusive. They believe that such blind submission will eventually cause the man to stop his abuse. It doesn't.
If we are to uphold this golden standard, we must confront abuse, shelter its victims and provide the tough love and counseling necessary to heal troubled relationships. And we have no business telling women to stay in marriages that actually could put them or their children in danger.
New England is a hot bed for church planting by the Calvinist Baptist crowd.
It is helpful for people in Massachusetts to be aware that the Baptists believe that Boston and its surroundings are the hot place to plant authoritarian based churches. We calls these Calvinists – *Calvinistas* since they believe they are the really committed Christians. They are involved in an incursion into the *dark* states of New England and they are not just planting churches. They are planting NeoCalvinist churches. My guess is that Heritage Bible Chapel believes that they are the only true gospel™ church in the area. Here is one statement from Church Planting Affecting Change Across New England by the Baptist Convention of New England that reflects this attitude.
“God planted a seed in our hearts to come back to New England and begin planting a church in New England,” Rogers said.
By any measure, the six states that comprise New England (Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Rhode Island and Vermont) have some of the lowest percentages of religious believers – including Southern Baptists, evangelical Christians and people that adhere to any religion – in the United States. a
While these statistics may seem discouraging, a surge in church planting is beginning to make a difference in the lives of individuals, as well as the Baptist Convention of New England as a whole. More than 115 of New England’s Southern Baptist churches have been planted since 2010 – a full one-third of the total Southern Baptist churches in the region – and many more planters are in the process of organizing new church plants.
This attitude amuses me because I was raised in a non-Christian home, but I became a Christian in that desperately dark town of Salem, Massachusetts.
2. My phone call to Tom Cochrell
As soon as I heard Marie's story, I knew we would be dealing with a church which follows the SBTS mantra lockstep. Hope springs eternal, but reality always gets in the way.
Tim barely spoke during our conversation. He refused to make a statement regarding the stand of his church. He perked up when I mentioned 9Marks but became quiet when I told him even 9Marks is loosening up in the guidelines for leaving a church. I begged him to consider letting Marie go, emphasizing that she has been abused enough by her husband. I told them they could let this whole thing wither away by simply declaring her not to be a member of their church. However, Tim was silent. Sadly, he didn't ask one question about Marie. That speaks volumes to me. This is not about caring for Marie or he would have at least attempted to show he was concerned about her well being. Nada- not a peep. I believe this baloney is all about controlling Marie and has nothing to do with love, no matter what how they try to spin it.
3. Another women from Heritage Bible Chapel steps forward
Sadly, two years ago, another woman appears to have been treated exactly the same way by the Heritage pastors. She has agreed to tell her story anonymously and we hope to have it for you sometime in the next week. However, she elected to share this email exchange with us,. The church was harassing her after she left the church. She asked them to stop contacting her, to no avail.
Once these men get their hooks in you, they don't let go. Remember this if you are considering joining this church.
Here is a letter she wrote to Tim Cochrell.
The following email from Tim Cochrell is astonishing in its coldness and in its defense of their reprehensible behavior towards an abused woman.
(Name redacted) thanks for your communication. I am sorry that you
you and where your heart is in all of this. (Name redacted) I continue to
It is obvious to this observer that this church has stepped over all boundaries in order to control an abused women, both now and in 2014. Do they really think that their harassing advice is going to bring reconciliation with their abusive husbands. And they have the gall to pretend they are competent to counsel? Good night!
4. A shout out to Cana Community Church.
Thankfully, Marie found another church which is supporting her in this trying time. Her pastors are loving, thoughtful and they know how to care for an abused woman. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. I hope that the pastors from Heritage will give you all a call and learn how it is done in the real world.
There is much, much more to write about, and I will try to do so at the end of the week. There is activity going on behind the scenes, and we will keep you all informed as things develop.
I am absolutely dying to hear how our thoughtful readers view that ridiculous, shameful letter from the pastors.
5. A representative court case worth reviewing by churches who think they own their members.
In 1984, the NYT wrote Church vows to appeal $390,000 verdict in woman's privacy suit
Mrs. Guinn, who is divorced and a mother of four, successfully sued the elders and the church for invading her privacy by confronting her about her relationship with the town's divorced former Mayor.
Other elders said they were still stunned by the verdict, returned Thursday, and by the realization that their beliefs, which they say are based on Scripture, may be so far outside mainstream thinking.
…On Oct. 4, 1981, the elders took the pulpit to denounce Mrs. Guinn for the ''sin of fornication.'' This was a few days after she resigned her church membership. Unanimous Verdict
Twelve Tulsa jurors, only four of whom called themselves regular churchgoers, unanimously decided that Mrs. Guinn's privacy had been invaded. They awarded her $205,000 actual and $185,000 punitive damages.
Jurors also said they never doubted that the elders had erred, Two jurors said the panel wished it could have awarded her damages for harassment. ''He was single, she was single, and this is America,'' said one juror, Bodonia Freeman.
On the website Church Discipline, this case was reviewed in 2008.
By voluntarily uniting with the church, she impliedly consented to submitting to its form of religious government, but did not thereby consent to relinquishing a right which the civil law guarantees her as its constitutionally protected value. The intentional and voluntary relinquishment of a known right required for a finding of an effective waiver was never established. On the record before us Parishioner – a sui juris person – removed herself from the Church of Christ congregation rolls the moment she communicated to the Elders that she was withdrawing from membership.
WHEN PARISHIONER WITHDREW HER MEMBERSHIP FROM THE CHURCH OF CHRIST AND THEREBY WITHDREW HER CONSENT TO PARTICIPATE IN A SPIRITUAL RELATIONSHIP IN WHICH SHE HAD IMPLICITLY AGREED TO SUBMIT TO ECCLESIASTICAL SUPERVISION, THOSE DISCIPLINARY ACTIONS THEREAFTER TAKEN BY THE ELDERS AGAINST PARISHIONER, WHICH ACTIVELY INVOLVED HER IN THE CHURCH'S WILL AND COMMAND, WERE OUTSIDE THE PURVIEW OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT [775 P.2d 778] PROTECTION AND WERE THE PROPER SUBJECT OF STATE REGULATION.
While the First Amendment requires that citizens be tolerant of religious views different from and offensive to their own, it surely does not require that those like Parishioner, who choose not to submit to the authority of any religious association, be tolerant of that group's attempts to govern them. Only those "who unite themselves" in a religious association impliedly consent to its authority over them and are "bound to submit to it." Parishioner voluntarily joined the Church of Christ and by so doing consented to submit to its tenets. When she later removed herself from membership, Parishioner withdrew her consent, depriving the Church of the power actively to monitor her spiritual life through overt disciplinary acts. No real freedom to choose religion would exist in this land if under the shield of the First Amendment religious institutions could impose their will on the unwilling and claim immunity from secular judicature for their tortious acts.
Let's repeat this again for pastors who just don't get it.
…The third point though is one many conservative churches most certainly went against the notion of church covenant. The court held that binding commitments to a church had no effect in law.
…All religious activity in the United States is consensual, a person who publically claims not to be a member of a church is legally not a member of that church and church discipline cannot continue without consent. A church attempting to discipline a person that has withdrawn can be found to be engaging in a form of harassment.
Think about it, Tim and Kevin. The jurors in this case were upset when a church went after a member for a sexual sin after she quit. Can you imagine how ridiculous you will be viewed for wanting a woman to return to her abusive husband? Good night! This is not even a biblical mandate. The fact that John Piper thinks it is will not play well in court.
Let our sisters go!
First?
@ Friend:
YAY! Quicker than Santa on the rooftops.
Just a heads-up, Dee – I can still see the woman’s name toward the end of the letter in the last screen shot.
And this is a great article – sock it to ’em!
You need to proof it again… there is a name in there..
What I do not understand is why “sexual sins” are singled out by so many churches.. just for arguments sake, there are 36 verses on gluttony.. given that obesity is well linked to serious health issues/conditions, and shorter life span, one can argue that it is not a trivial issue.
I remember as a kid at my baptist middle school, the obese pastor drove around in his brand new Cadillac and constantly railed against sexual sins, but seem to miss not just gluttony, but many other “sins”
Do not get me wrong, I am not here to rail on fancy cars and obesity, just that it is amazing to me how church leaders can pick and choose the “sins” they want to persecute. As WW clearly shows, it is all about control, and power over others..
Pastors like Tim are monsters IMO. They are very poor representatives of Christ.
From the letter, “I will continue to pray for you and will reach out periodically over the coming weeks and months as will the elders and some from within the church.”
So not only was Tim planning on continuance of harassment, but instructing the elders AND select parishioners to do so as well.
Though Tim shows he has an understanding and awareness of the law regarding harrassment (whether accurate is for lawyers to discern), these elders and parishioners may not have an understanding of this law, thereby Tim is potentially putting the elders and parishioners in legal jeopardy.
Not to mention he is completely disrespecting this woman’s stated wishes to cease and desist. Bully of a man, releasing his team of bullies against a girl. Seems as if his daddy never taught him to pick on someone his own size. He has to pick on a woman with his gang. Coward.
Remnant wrote:
Southern Baptist pastors sure seem to be taught in the seminaries to “hate” women. They sure treat them very poorly.
It appears that Heritage has just deleted their twitter account after I tagged them in my tweet with this new post.
A more complete overview of the Role of Women in Complementarianism might look something like this:
Women, in the complementarian system, are to be married. Wives are to be submissive to their husbands. Not-yet-married (a.k.a. single) women are to focus on marriage preparation, homemaking skills, cooking, childcare, cleaning, etc. and are to complete marriage-focused Bible Studies pertaining to all aspects of their gender role until such time as they are married in which case they will be so busy cooking, cleaning, taking care of children that if they don’t have the time to actually study the Bible, they can fall back on the training they did in the marriage-focused Bible Studies to guide them in everyday life as they intelligently, joyfully submit to their husband’s authority over them.
Amy Smith wrote:
It’s usually the real men who aren’t.
@ Talmidah:
uh oh. Let me fix it.
Amy Smith wrote:
I have been unable to access HBC’s Facebook page.
https://www.facebook.com/Heritagebiblechapel
Why is social media being shut down at Heritage Bible Chapel???
Wake up folks! This is a cowardly move…
@ Talmidah:
Super thank you!
@ Deb:
I bet they are getting untoward messages.
@ Jeffrey J . Chalmers:
Thank you. I got it out.
Remnant wrote:
he was saying “tough @$*^we’ll do whatever we think John Piper would do.
Remnant wrote:
Little does he know, Marie is bigger than he is ……. in character and in spirit!
All these cases you post give another dimension to cyber-bullying….Are these trolls ever communicating in person or do they just hide under their bridge and blast emails? Truly remarkable ‘shepherding’ going on here…
Just despicable.
dee wrote:
You’re welcome, Miss Dee!
mot wrote:
Hmmmmm, that makes me think of a line in “Hotel California” ……… “They stab it with their steely knives, but they just can’t kill the beast.”
There is no person more harmful than the one who will not hear the word “no”. “No” is a complete sentence.
“The Gift of Fear”, by Gavin deBecker, should be read by everyone. It should be required in every high school. Gavin deBecker grew up in a violent home, and went on to become a security consultant. He shows you the signs of abusive people and relationships so that you can get out of them in time. While I do not think that these pastors are violent or physically dangerous, they are certainly abusive. When anyone says, “Do not contact me again,” and the reply is, “I will continue to reach out to you in the coming weeks and months,” this is a huge red flag. I hope this woman pursues legal action, as I doubt it is the harasser who gets to decide if he is harassing or not.
When Pastor Tim tells “another woman” in his email to her that this “has more to do with your spiritual condition than the content of my communication”, his own spiritual condition is showing. Yep, Wartburgers have learned a lot about Pastor Tim’s spiritual condition from the content of his communication this past week!
@ Deb:
Pastor Tim’s personal twitter account has also been nuked.
@ Marie Notcheva:
Good point.. further underscores the issue of control..
I've been warning for years now that this false teaching would bear rotten fruit. And it is.
Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:
What about lack of love and pride? Lack of love breaks the second commandment, and love is mentioned over 300 times in the Bible!
BTW, you Calvinista fans of grace who have contempt for everyone else, your pride disqualifies you from grace entirely: “But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” (James 4:6)
I got a new compy! It doesn’t crash!
Furthering Marie’s clarification… Since no sexual sin is being thrown around, I guess her “sin” is not submitting to abuse in the name of G&d. If this church thinks this type of suffering is holly, why on January 17, 2017 are they hosting a Firearms safety class? Why do you need a firearm?
I get the idea of pacifism, in fact I respect religious groups that practice it, but it seems odd that they say wives should submit to abuse, including physical abuse, and then advocate, or at least allow Firearms?
P.S. Hacksaw ridge is very sobering…
It really is about power, the “sexual sin”©™® is just one of the quicker ways to leverage that power and at times through off the person who is being targetted. One needs to view this power structure as a house of cards if one goes down they all go down. I believe, apparently, in my opinion, according to what I have seen (LOL sorry about that), it is also why those in the “Gospel”©™® grandstand get all upset whenever there is an attack on their “perceived” authority. That is one reason I think they have dug in concerning patriarchy as a primary issue yet they tip a hat to other issues such as well, the Trinity. If that does not break the dogma irony meter I don’t know what will.
P.S… In all of my years in churches (and it is many, many decades), I have NEVER seen a Firearms safety class in a church… there is just something uneasy about such a weapon in a house of worship…
Tim Cochrell and Kevin Wright, I’m pretty sure you are reading this. I have some heart-felt words for you.
How do you think putting an abused woman in church discipline is benefiting her? How does it reflect the love of Christ? Your response to Marie, while attempting to make it seem godly, is really making God out to be evil – One who endorses abuse. Is that your intention?
Do you really think God would rather abused women remain married to their abusers? If that is the case, then you are also implying that God values the institution of marriage over the health and well-being of battered women. Does that sound like the God of the Bible? It sounds more like man’s interpretation of scriptures, not the merciful and loving God who wants the oppressed and defenseless to be cared for.
Do you want to be responsible for shipwrecking someone’s faith because of your legalistic practices? I am going to be blunt. I fear for your souls. You are failing to show love and mercy, but instead, are enforcing law, and man-made law at that. Where in the Bible do you ever see God disciplining someone who is being abused? He doesn’t. He wants you, spiritual leaders, to defend the sheep who have been harmed and abused.
If you would be willing, I would be happy to put you in touch with pastors whose ministries deal with domestic violence. I know they would be willing to talk to both of you. I am becoming convinced that some pastors are being taught rules about church discipline without really looking at how God would treat a victim. Perhaps you were taught that. I know that pressure is on you right now, but I encourage you to do the hard work of challenging what you have been taught – – – for the sake of Christ and for the well-being of women who have been harmed.
You may contact me at spiritualsb@gmail.com if you’d like to connect with pastors who have diligently studied this issue. I would like to see both of you become advocates for harmed women. I am praying that your hearts will be changed to be true shepherds who protect and defend His sheep.
dee wrote:
I think that your average Calvinista longs to be recognized by the big dogs. If they could model a church after the teachings of their idols, the celebrities would surely take note and invite them into the inner circle. If they could only break through the crowd around the throne and just touch The Man, they would be rewarded for their faithfulness. New Calvinism is really a sickness.
Julie Anne wrote:
I’ll be blunt. They should protect and defend the sheep instead of diligently, doggedly, and determinedly throwing the sheep who have been attacked by wolves back into the wolves’ den.
@ Julie Anne:
Amen
Well said Julie
Nancy2 wrote:
Yeah, but see in this particular case, sheep-girl ain’t going back to wolf-man OR wolf-pastors, and I believe I made myself super-clear on that issue; hence this whole unfortunate dialogue……you feel me?
dee wrote:
Including hiding under the bed from Those Muscular Women Who Beget Unnatural Arousal?
Max wrote:
Sure have. Humility is not a quality that I have discovered in their church yet.
Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:
Because sex makes people stupid and these preachers are brain-dead living proof.
And besides, if I can’t get any I gotta make sure nobody else ever can.
And obsessing on all the details — how else can I get my porn fix and still stay Respectable?
The too-fat-to-even-stand-up preacher (fresh from his sixth helping at the church potluck) SCREAMING from the pulpit about the other guy’s (usually SEXUAL) sin is so common it’s become a cartoon of itself. Lotsa examples on YouTube.
Julie Anne wrote:
Pretty sure that is not going to happen. Anything a woman says which challenges their authority or the perfection of their doctrine will be written off as the fruit of her propensity to rebel against God, per Genesis 3. Anything a male says in support of said woman will be written off as a male propensity to shirk his responsibility to lead her well.
They have no ability to learn from their mistakes because they believe they know the truth better than anyone else. They are locked into a junior-high mindset where everything good is due to their superior intellect or understanding and anything bad that happens is due to others sabotaging them via challenges to their authority which must not ever, ever be questioned.
People who cannot or will not test reality create huge messes in their own lives and in the lives of people connected to them.
Max wrote:
“WE ARE ANONYMOUS…”
Here is a review of all the Cru Winter Christmas conferences. A breakdown of all the speakers, agendas and more.
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/12/19/cru-winter-conference-review-2016-2017-david-platt-matt-smethurst-jackson-crum-and-j-d-greer-are-some-of-the-main-speakers/
Molly245 wrote:
Not under their bridge.
Under their bed.
(There are MUSCULAR WOMEN out there… The Estrogen… The Estrogen…)
Remnant wrote:
Plausible Deniability — “Let Bubba Do It”.
Julie Anne wrote:
Since they shut down social media (Facebook and Twitter), they should have time to read your commentary. 😉
dee wrote:
Humility is a rare and endangered species in the whole of New Calvinism.
Regarding the First Amendment, which we have discussed somewhat of late, this legal language is intriguing. A relief for those who have left a church, and a warning to the rest. No written covenant is mentioned in what I saw. It seems to be membership, rather than a written contract/covenant, that makes a member subject to church discipline. Yikes.
While the First Amendment requires that citizens be tolerant of religious views different from and offensive to their own, it surely does not require that those like Parishioner, who choose not to submit to the authority of any religious association, be tolerant of that group’s attempts to govern them. Only those “who unite themselves” in a religious association impliedly consent to its authority over them and are “bound to submit to it.”
@ Lisa:
This is really important. Several years ago, I went on a couple of dates with a guy I was ambivalent about. All of the advice I got from friends/mentors in complementarian circles amounted to “If he’s interested in you, he’ll pursue you regardless of what you say”. I said that I wasn’t interested–which was true–and then was surprised that he didn’t contact me again. To my chagrin, it took me over a year to realize that he had heard and respected my boundaries, and that that was a good thing.
Compementarianism is now a deal-breaker for me with respect to church involvement.
The whole system is built on disregarding boundaries, which means that the whole system is built on subjecting women. I’m glad that people are calling attention to the systemic issues in the system.
Does Heritage Bible Chapel require members to sign a membership covenant? If so, could someone share it here?
Megan wrote:
This.
That is exactly what I learned at my former church, Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley. 9 Marxist/John MacArthur-ite/Complementarian-Patriarchy. No boundaries! I have never seen such sick, toxic, and unhealthy people who have such a fundamental disrespect for other people. That included the women as well as the men. I have never met creepier women than at my ex-church who demanded friendship, but weren’t willing to be decent, respectful people and earn it.
Megan wrote:
Yep. Lacking boundaries is part of codependency, and gender complementarianism is basically codependency with Bible verses slapped on to it. I wrote more about it here:
Christian Gender Complementarianism is Christian-Endorsed Codependency for Women (And That’s Not A Good Thing)
https://missdaisyflower.wordpress.com/2016/03/29/christian-gender-complementarianism-is-christian-endorsed-codependency-for-women/
@ Velour:
Exactly this.
I’m trying to re-engage churches after about four years away. I’m still surprised when pastors and congregants respect my boundaries–which are probably higher than they need to be, given several years in patriarchal circles.
Not to mention people who don’t understand that friendship is a two-way street, and that trust and respect have to be earned, not demanded.
It’s a tragedy when healthy boundaries are surprising.
Also, and off topic. I’ve been a lurker and sometime commenter here for going on five years. I owe a lot to this blog/comment crowd for helping me realize that my objections are healthy and not pathological.
Thank you all!
Marie Notcheva wrote:
1.). Sheep are much smarter than most people think they are.
2.). I do believe our “sheep-girl” is a Longhorn sheep. Longhorn sheep are notoriously independant and legendary for navigating rough terrain.
Go, Marie. Ha, let ’em just try buttin’ heads with you!
Deb wrote:
HA! Yes, it was lengthy! I have to have hope that God works miracles in the hearts of His people. If you were to tell me that I would be connecting with pastors who were against me and treated me rudely publicly regarding the Tullian Tchividjian sexual misconduct case – – and then genuinely apologize to me, I would have a hard time believing it. Miracles happen.
If I was one of these elders I would be very concerned that my employer would hear about this and see some of this evidence. Who would want one of these guys working for your company. I would think it would be hard to treat women one way at church and then turn around and treat them in a respectful manner at work. If I was one of their employers I would think twice about keeping them around.
Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:
I live in the Kentucky boonies. My 4′ 9 3/4″
Eastern Timber Rattle snake skin is displayed on a board on one wall, while my husband’s bobcat is mounted and hanging on another wall.
If I had the time and money, and I knew I wouldn’t get in trouble carrying across state lines, I’d put my cache in the car and go sign up for the class just to see their reactions.
Texasguy wrote:
I’ve been saying the same thing about my former pastors/elders at Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley, three of whom work for large corporations and are supervisors. Everything they do at church is a violation of law and can get their employers sued if they do it at work and is a disgrace to their company. (The other elders are employed as pastors by the church.)
Do they award a Ph.D in Servantship? If not, why?
I can understand all the fuss over “leadership” in secular institutions that churn out CEOs but this is supposed to be the “Church”. Jesus called us to be servants and to be different from the world on this key issue. I am becoming more and more disturbed over this jettisoning of Christ’s basic teaching that he emphasized on numerous occasions.
Bill M wrote:
My ex-pastor at Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley could find out where to buy one!
He’s already got a fake, diploma mill Ph.D. for $299 and another fake diploma mill advanced degree.
@ Julie Anne:
Beautiful, just beautiful!
BTW, Brad S. has a really good article up on SSB about the sentence structure and wording used by certain people when pastors fail – TT is the main focus.
……….. Expertise at using wording to make pastors appear like innocent victims of Satan’s wiles.
Reading the response from HBC reminds me of some of the crashing bores back at the university. There was one person in my engineering classes who sought to lecture the rest of the class in his “questions”. I was always appalled at his inability, make that complete inability, to take note of the reaction of his peers. When someone sighs, groans, and some bang their head on their desk when you speak up, it should be a sign that you should back off. Instead he forged on daily throughout the term, oblivious to his long suffering fellows.
The message from the woman telling these “pastors” to back off should have brought complete silence or a simple apology through a third party for how they were perceived, regardless of their righteousness which they likely didn’t have in this case. Instead they not only pressed on, they took it as an opportunity to correct the woman statements in her message to them.
Good lord, these people are devoid of boundaries and basic human decency.
Yes, but what kind of difference?
I laughed out loud at this! It is time for a reality check for these characters! They’ve got their noses so far in their theology books, they haven’t noticed the world has moved on over the last couple centuries. Good grief!
Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:
Or how about Jesus’ strong words about those who harm little children? If the church wants to single out sins that actually have a *huge* and damaging affect on this world, how about child abuse? Now that is a sin with a victim, and it is a totally innocent and defenseless victim. Most of the ills in society trace back to child abuse.
Julie Anne wrote:
That’s wonderful to hear, Julie Anne! I get so cynical I get to thinking these people are all just cold, conscienceless, Jesus-haters. But it’s nice to see that some are perhaps legitimate Christians just misguided and capable of repentance. Lord, sort it all out and show true fruits and forgive my cynicism.
@ Julie Anne:
Julie Anne, you have the heart of a true shepherd- I believe you have an accurate understanding the heart of God that is revealed in the scriptures. I hope and pray that you will find a listening ear and an open heart, your message is truth and it needs to be heard.
From history, the Lutherans kicked the Calvinists out in the 1500s. Reformed is not equated to reformation. Seems the “Calvinistitoids” are just trying to put chains on the people as a lot (not all) of the church hierarchy was doing before the reformation. History repeats itself….therefore, study, seek, ask questions and if you TOLD not to do these things, seek a place where that can be done. Remember, Jesus is Lord (Phil 2 and multiple other Scriptures), not a pastor, priest or self proclaimed guru! Any comments??
First!
…oh.
GMFS anyway.
Why are you picking and choosing your verses? God tells wives to submit to their husbands as the church does to Christ AND He tell HUSBANDS to submit to their wives as well. Read it all before you comment!!@ Jamie Carter:
Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:
Agree, and there is something chilling about associating this kind of bullying and abuse with firearms ownership.
@ Nancy2:
Link?
Hotel California indeed! What a bunch of psychopaths.
Thanks for continuing to follow up. This is a real eye opener for those of us on the outside.
I did an informal poll of friends & co-workers, some religious some not.
The neocalvinist influence doesn’t register in my circle. The names & organizations mentioned here drew universal blanks.
Without this blog, I’d never know.
Julie Anne wrote:
Good for them.
I always hope people like this Tim person will learn, but they have to drop their pride first to do it. That seems to be the biggest hurdle.
Bill M wrote:
I now hate and despise the term servant leader as applied to church or husbands. Stop it! It's just a way to try to tell everyone you're the boss while putting that gospel gloss on it.
@ Jeffrey J . Chalmers:
I’ve made this comment on other blogs. Why do IFB et al imply God has a hierachy of sins. Sexual sin is at the top, way, way above all others. gluttony seems way down the list, though 8million in the world will go to bed hungry tonight. What about hypocrisy, my dad left the church in Wales when pastors preached against ‘the demon drink’ on Sundays but went to the back door of the pub in the week with a jug to buy beer and then beat their wives when drunk. What about the little white lies I might tell for no reason…I suggest God’s ‘hierachy of sins’ is probably much different to what we think it is.
Lea wrote:
Sadly these guys have destroyed that word servant. After our churches Christmas play this past Sunday I said to the folks God has given to me to be their pastor, that I desire to be their servant and I mean it.
Red flags.
Really, a PhD in ‘leadership’ to be a pastor? How does that qualify anybody to do anything except run a religious business enterprise? But I suppose that is how they see the church. I am not buying it. Listen, Preacher Boy, show me where you went off to some godforsaken end of the earth to be a missionary, failed badly, and came home with a more realistic understanding of both yourself and God. Show me where the great bird of awfulness flew over your head and dookied on you and how you still believe in Jesus despite it all. Show me some scribbled notes of appreciation where one and another have said that you took Jesus in one hand and their poor self in the other and helped bring the two of them together through the power of the Spirit. Show me where you are so good to your wife that people begin to wonder about you, and show me where your kids are willing to take on anybody on the playground who says bad things about their daddy. Show me where the guys at the garage say ‘yeah, he’s okay’ about you. Then, and only then, do you have anything to say that I consider worth hearing. You are not a leader, Buddy, you are a business manager. I can make better choices for where I throw my money in which plate. Aha, now I have your attention, don’t I, Buddy?
Did you people check this out? It is a list of what all SBTS will grant a PhD in. Notice how biased and limited some it is advertised to be, in weeding out any ideas that are not ‘biblical’. Some of this does not appear on the surface to be real education at the doctoral level even to my naive self. Just saying.
@ okrapod:
Oops.
http://www.sbts.edu/doctoral/#doctor-of-philosophy
The Doctoral Studies at Southern Baptist states-:”Rooted in the desire to see God’s fame increase as equipped ministers take the gospel to the nations, we devote ourselves to training men and women who will serve faithfully in the church, on the mission field, and in the academy.” This statement is laughable as to what the boys and I do mean boys do that graduate from this school.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Dr. Fundystan… that is my point… I am not for or against guns…. just that, as you say, associating firearms with authoritarian/controlling leadership is chilling..
okrapod wrote:
I agree… further, in their mind, their pseudo intellectual pursuits do qualify them to be pastors, since to them, following Christ is following the rules that they construct…
Max wrote:
The dog biscuit and the pat-pat-pat on the head.
“GOOD BOY! GOOD BOY! SPEAK!”
And if they’re really a Good Boy, they might get invited into the Inner Ring.
Jamie Carter wrote:
None of this is in the Bible. Not one iota. It’s all cultural (and ethnocentric), based on a 1950s notion of what marriage and family should be.
There is no promise anywhere that everyone will be married, for one, in fact, Paul tells people not to seek to be married. If you are not seeking to be married, you are not planning your whole life around getting married. This idea that marriage is the foundation of Christian life is, again, nowhere in the Bible.
And never in the Bible does it say that we are to give up the Christian disciplines because we are “too busy”. And I doubt 90% of those “marriage Bible studies” gave anyone the answer to living life day by day, because that comes in a daily walk with God where God is the one who directs it.
BTW, the Proverbs 31 woman ran the family businesses.
Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:
Because firearms are so MANLY. (And so Phallic…)
“FOR ZARDOZ YOUR GOD GAVE YOU THE GIFT OF THE GUN.
THE GUN IS GOOD!”
(“THE GUN IS GOOD…”)
@ Megan:
Thank you for sharing!
ishy wrote:
In the original Jewish tradition, Proverbs 31 wasn’t a checklist of Fact, Fact, Fact.
It was a song, reportedly sung to wives by their husbands to praise her as a larger-than-life “Woman of Valor”.
Matilda wrote:
I agree with you, Matilda. In fact, I think pride, dishonesty, and contempt for God’s children are the worst sins in Scripture, and I see that in profusion from churches and pastors like this.
I think they are going to face a very different God than they one they’ve lorded over others for so long, unless they repent and turn away from their sin.
Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:
In the Roman Empire, nothing says POWER as the ability to maim and kill the powerless.
Like the Fasces, Roman symbol of The State — axe for beheading bound with rods for beating.
@ Skebo0401:
What. did Jamie say that caused you to respond in this manner?
Jack wrote:
Glad to hear this!!!
ishy wrote:
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
There’s NT examples, such as Lydia, who funded the apostles. Joanna and Susannah helped fund Jesus’ ministry. The idea that women are only supposed to be homemakers has no biblical foundation.
Sorry I kept trying to delete the first passage in the last post, and it kept popping back up. I think I need to fix my cache settings on this new computer.
okrapod wrote:
Actually I got into a whole bunch of trouble years ago when we had just started this blog when I wrote a post about a local pastor who was making fun of local professors at Duke and UNC, claiming they were just a bunch of egotistical sheep. Of course, said pastor had an MDiv and a PhD in Muslim studies from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary and, of course, had authority over everyone else. When I mean trouble, I mean trouble. The tried to get me kicked off a board that I serve on to no avail.
@ mot:
First of all, women are limited in what they can study. Secondly, I think their degree is in how to properly admire people like Piper and Mohler and control the heck out of all the poor people who wind up in their churches.
I think the letter by that pastor shows just how despicable they are. “You can’t leave until we say you can leave and we will hound you until the day you die.”
@ dee:
Do they even allow women to get PhDs?
okrapod wrote:
He’s not even doing a good job of that if he’s opening himself up to legal liabilities.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I was thinking the other night, maybe instead of talking about the proverbs 31 woman, they should be talking about the MAN! He is a well respected husband who cherishes and appreciates all the things his wife does and tells her so. Preach that.
okrapod wrote:
“Pastoral Leadership for Manhood and Womanhood”, a series of essays edited by Wayne Grudem and Dennis Rainey, is required reading in the Ph.D program at SBTS. A partial list of chapters includes:
The Pastor’s Responsibility for Romance in His Congregation and Marriage, Dennis Rainey
Cultivating a Man-Friendly Church – H.B. London, Jr
Church Discipline: God’s Tool to Preserve and Heal Marriages, Ken Sande
How to Encourage Husbands to Lead and Wives to Follow, C.J. Mahaney
Pastoral Response to Domestic Violence, David Powlison, Paul David Tripp, and Edward T. Welch
This opens a small window into the mindset at SBTS… and sets off more red flags than occur in a dozen seasons of NASCAR races.
Praying blessings and healing to those who have been hurt by the systemic abuse at HBC.
ishy wrote:
I always think of this scripture:
There are six things the Lord hates,seven that are detestable to him:
haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
a false witness who pours out lies
and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.
None of those things are divorce or refusing to obey your pastor and let him run your life!
What is a doctorate in philosophy with a concentration in leadership? What type of academic contribution can be accomplished through that study? It seems that Southern Baptist Seminaries, in their push and rush to have every pastor ‘earn’ a doctorate, forget that Ph.D.s are designed to enlarge the collected body of knowledge for others to draw upon. An advanced degree in leadership is a academic farce.
I was told about the Ph.D. in leadership at SEBTS prior to its implementation by a profession who thought I would be interested in it…I was not and am not. In fact, I would rather have a Ph.D. in
preachingproclamation studies than one in leadership.I am commenting about something on the ODP. Something about Christmas and Hope.
If I can get the cut and paste to work, of course.
FW Rez wrote:
Run away!!!
okrapod wrote:
One can get a D.Ed.Min (Doctor of Educational Ministry) with a concentration in “Leadership” at SBTS (most likely Pastor Tim’s degree). It is primarily a distance-learning program, in which “students may complete the entire degree making only six trips to Louisville.” About 30 months of off-site study (which HBC probably paid for), plus just a few glorious weeks at Dr. Mohler’s ground-zero for New Calvinism, and you can call yourself “Doctor.” Having recently acquired that piece of paper, the HBC mess is Pastor Tim’s first test of “leadership” … he can’t let his authoritarian/complementarian professors down! He must be confused that Leadership 101 on how to overcome the weak just isn’t working … perhaps he never read in Scripture that “God chose things that are powerless to shame those who are powerful” (1 Cor 1:27).
Lea wrote:
You can’t make this stuff up.
Regarding the firearms class in HBC, I’m not opposed to guns in church carried by those with the required training for concealed carry. I wouldn’t even have a problem with responsible open carry.
My only concern is, I hope that Ivo will not be participating in this particular class.
If I were in Marie’s shoes, that would make me nervous.
“God planted a seed in our hearts to come back to New England and begin planting a church in New England,” Rogers said.
By any measure, the six states that comprise New England (Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Rhode Island and Vermont) have some of the lowest percentages of religious believers – including Southern Baptists, evangelical Christians and people that adhere to any religion – in the United States.
I thought New York (including the burned over district) was part of New England. Am I mistaken about that?
Lea wrote:
SCREAM!
NJ wrote:
Oh man. I made the same mistake freshman year and East coast people flipped out on me! Apparently that’s a big deal.
Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:
It would be hard to identify that Baptist pastor’s name in the description you provide – it fits so many! Can you give us another tip?
mot wrote:
As a 60+ year Southern Baptist, I can tell you (from my experience) this has not always been the case. However, beware of any pastoral candidates for your church in their 20s-30s with recent degrees from SBC seminaries such as SBTS, SEBTS, and MWBTS.
Q: How are church decisions made at Heritage?
partial A: Our church is led by a group of elders who are responsible for leading the church and shepherding the people God brings to Heritage. This includes caring for the hurting, pursuing the wandering, defending the unity of the flock, and leading the church to faithfully serve the Lord.
Mm-hm. Btw, I also noticed that they have Life Groups which are expected to include every member in the church. These look very similar to the ones in SGM.
NJ wrote:
He prefers bow hunting.
Burwell wrote:
Precisely.
I wonder how many other congregants with needs in the places like Heritage Bible are ignored while the leadership spends all of their time pursuing those who are leaving? My current church does practice “discipline” (known better as correction), but we in the congregation rarely hear of it. I can remember two cases in the 16 years I have been been there and they were significant, could not be ignored. However, it was handled as “one and done.” The adulterous elder resigned his position and the person who screamed at a pastor repeatedly in public meetings apologized. That’s it. One left, the other is there. Meanwhile, many other folks with issues (often divorce/abuse) are receiving significant help. My church even has an emergency plan to help women who need a place to go if they are threatened. I guess it is all in your worldview of how you see God’s love and people.
Max wrote:
I don’t think most pastors have taken that passage to heart. This is why most pastors also cannot seem to learn anything from the powerless. They do not believe God uses who He wills to speak into their lives, so they are not listening to the meek, or the still small voice, or the powerless.
NJ wrote:
No, you’re not. New England is comprised of seven states. That is what I learned in elementary school anyway.
What is the “burned over district” of New York?
NJ wrote:
This stuff doesn’t jump out at me, but if you had a gun class and were teaching a man everyone knew to be violent that might be an issue.
Amusingly, the first time I shot a gun was in youth group. We didn’t even have a class, youth pastor just handed a bunch of 17 year olds a rifle to shoot bottles!
@ DEE:
“Sadly, he didn’t ask one question about Marie. That speaks volumes to me. This is not about caring for Marie or he would have at least attempted to show he was concerned about her well being. Nada- not a peep.”
you’re on to the heart of what is wrong:
‘Marie’ is expendable, as is every woman they place in a position where she must endure abuse and possibly worse from a sick, unbalanced spouse. Of COURSE, that ‘pastor’ doesn’t care about HER, no.
If he did, even as a normal human being would, hearing about her distress, he would listen to her and want to see that she was no longer being pressed back into a harmful situation. But that is not what he is: that is not what he has ‘become’. I think you really have to ‘train’ a normal human person to create in them such a lack of compassion and empathy towards a suffering person. This ‘training’ is a form of abuse in itself, a corruption of what every human person knows is ‘the right thing to do’ when faced with someone in jeapardy: you help them if you can.
His ‘training’ changed him from a normal human person and placed him in a category of those who are ‘able’ to ‘work with’ others using the Church as ‘cover’ for seeing to it that people suffer, again and again and again ….. what kind of ‘training’ does this to a man??? What kind of ‘seminary’ is seminal to the formation of a ‘Hotel California’ hell for women being abused in their marriages???
One thing is clear: this ‘pastor’ serves the wrong entity. And Marie is nothing more to him than another sacrifice unto that entity. Our Lord’s Mind and Heart are not what this ‘pastor’ has been conformed to in his seminary ‘training’, no. He is now become something sub-human …. incapable of empathizing with the plight of another human in distress. He needs God’s merciful intervention to bring him out of his cult thinking before he is beyond reaching. He is in worse trouble even than Marie, because with every woman he steers back into Hotel California, the darkness closes on him even more.
ishy wrote:
So true, ishy.
Since we attended the same institution, albeit in differing years, perhaps you will not be surprised to read that I remember Richard Land say, from the pulpit in chapel, that he wished America would return to the 1950s. He basically was equating 1950s America as “God’s nation” in morality, civility, etc.
EXCEPT, it wasn’t. Brown v. the Board of Education occurred in 1954 but it took over a decade to work its way through the states to become official policy, and even then the Civil Rights movement didn’t begin to gain traction until the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
Burwell wrote:
*Grrr…that should read “professor”
Bridget wrote:
Yep, life in the Kingdom of God is distinctly different than life in the Kingdom of Calvin.
dee wrote:
Just curious, does the guy even read Arabic? (My guess is no.)
Burwell wrote:
Unfortunately, I have more understanding about his views on that than I wish to know, and seen how it affected those around him. It’s not pretty.
Sadly, most of these guys can’t see how fragile their families are purely because of their theology and how they’ve lived that theology out.
I think preachers have too many perks and power these days and their greedy little hearts yearn for more and more.My “paster”just got approved for a 3 month serbatical/vacation after 8 years in that position.My husband never took time off in 30 years,not when hi mother in law needed 24 hour care(we slept in shifts),not when we became foster parents of relatives kids overnight and the kid kept us up to 4 every night,not when I needed care when I was in the bed for one and half years,not when the baby had colic for three months,not when he lost his function of his arm in accident and the insurance rushed him back to work.not when is aging parents needed care due to old age and surgeries.Not ever!!! My only glee in this is not on my dollar ths time around,I have not TITHED /thrown my money away in 5 years.ha ha ha and we refuse to join the church,we are their for the cookies and free moving help.ha ha ha
@ Bridget:
Somewhat of a tangent… but not entirely.
Bridget, you posted a question to me a few threads back which I – very rudely, I’m sorry to say – never got around to answering. Briefly: there was a short discussion on where to find really good female preachers, I mentioned that Lesley and I followed several, but that they were (to paraphrase myself) evil charismatic deceivers in the service of stan. Understandably, you asked me to clarify.
In a nutshell, I was kind of being ironic about the “service of stan” business.
The women whereof I spake are followers of Jesus; end of. But because the word “charismatic” not only means very different things on opposite sides of the Atlantic, but can be strongly triggering to many people over to the west thereof, I’m never quite sure how to use it. A discussion of charismatic preachers tends to be highly unstable – that is, liable to fly off into very angry territory – because bennyHinnAndToddBentley.
In the UK, “charismatic” is a misnomer applied to churches and christian organisations who practice the manifestations of the spirit mentioned in 1 Corinthians. These are wrongly termed “the charismata” – which are actually described in Romans 12, the examples given there being such as giving, encouraging, leading, prophesying and showing mercy. The list in 1 Corinthians – tongues, prophesy, healing an’ a’ tha’ – are actually the phaneroses (usually translated “manifestations” and literally referring to a sudden flash, as of light). But I know of no universe in which the phrase “phanerotic church” sounds good.
But I stray… there are several women Lesley and I have heard (in person or on electronic media) whose teaching we’ve found very good indeed. It so happens that they tend to be in charismatic settings, because that’s where we generally hang out. The trouble is that you’ll invariably find that they:
once shared a platform with someone who…
wrote the forward for a book by someone who…
once worked with someone who…
bennyHinnAndToddBentley
So I’m reluctant to name any of them here, although I’ll be happy to converse further offline (Deebs can send you my email address).
In between times, though, those looking for good female bible teachers might care to start with Elaine Storkey. She’s a respectable lassie fae the Church of England! Her website is here.
Burwell wrote:
Ask Black Southerners about that one.
Muslin fka Deana Holmes/mirele wrote:
Maybe about as well as Ergun Caner.
Christiane wrote:
Baal or Priapus?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Don’t forget that the split that resulted in the Northern Baptist, which I believe is now the American Baptist, and the Southern Baptist, was at least partially related to slavery. And, there were many religious leaders in the South that justified racially slavery with the Bible…
Water lilly wrote:
They are indoctrinated at the seminaries to think they are special. The book I mentioned earlier that is required reading at SBTS, “Pastoral Leadership for Manhood and Womanhood”, begins in the first chapter by addressing pastors as if their profession is somehow more demanding than others: “… the ministry can be exhausting, and exhaustion can often lead to depression.” As if other lines of work are refreshing and consistently lead to euphoria?
Bridget wrote:
A name for Upstate New York in the early-to-mid 19th Century. It was called that because it was “burned over” by Revival after Revival after Revival.
And was The Weird Religion Capital of the USA at the time. The same reputation California has today — Mount Shasta, Joshua Tree, and Hollywood all rolled into one. The Spiritualists, the Mormons, the Millerites, and many other One True Restored Faiths which did not survive for long (like the aggressive nudist Battle Axes and many others lost to history) — ALL came out of the Burned Over District.
FW Rez wrote:
These pastors think they are “special.” The many perks that some of them receive allow them to live very comfortable and sheltered lives.
FW Rez wrote:
The Sacred Testosterone equivalent of an MRS/Homemaking degree.
Marie Notcheva wrote:
That may not be an improvement.
Bows are quieter than guns, and the forensic ballistics of an arrow are harder to trace.
Max wrote:
And if that doesn’t work — SCREAM LOUDER!
Burwell wrote:
Bad translation from “FUEHRERPRINZIP”?
Lea wrote:
But they are very much a part of “your pastor who runs your life”.
Max wrote:
I see your SCREAM and raise you HAiR PULLING (until bald, of course).
Bridget wrote:
Just MRSes.
FW Rez wrote:
Yeah, it’s so hard when you buy your sermons prewritten and staff underlings do the dirty work of actually associating with the congregation.
Then there’s people like Tchividjian who do bad things and get rewarded with a cushy “sabbatical job”, making more than 3-4 times what the average person in the congregation makes.
Julie Anne wrote:
It is indeed encouraging to hear that some New Calvinists can come to their senses when they shut out the noise of their peers, sit down, and consider the facts at hand. When we expand that to the greater authoritarian/complementarian world of New Calvinism, do you think it would be possible for folks like Pastor Tim to shut out the teachings of their influencers, to lay aside “leadership” indoctrination, and do the right thing in love? I know that would be impossible for folks like Grudem and Ware, but how about the hundreds/thousands of YRR released on American pulpits like Pastor Tim they have influenced? Or is the psychology at play here to difficult to overcome for them to find redemption by humbling themselves, apologizing, and asking for forgiveness from folks in the pew?
ishy wrote:
Which is skirting dangerously close to fraud, if they aren’t actually doing any work.
Another thing churches need to look at are how many hours their pastor is actually devoting to their real job, as opposed to a bunch of side businesses that make them money (writing/conferences/etc). I know if I spent my work time doing other work that didn’t benefit my company but instead benefited me personally? That would be fraud. Also, using my work supplies for a side business would be fraud, which I bet a lot of these folks do.
Lisa wrote:
I agree, but pastors can become violent and physically dangerous. It was just reported that the pastor of Word of Life Church, near Utica, NY, was sentenced to 12 years in state prison for the fatal beating of a teenager during a counseling session. In this instance, the pastor is a woman.
http://news10.com/2016/12/19/ny-pastor-gets-12-years-in-prison-for-teens-death/
“Folks, let this be a warning to you. If you see that men in a particular church are being educated at either of these seminaries, you will guaranteed yourself a heavily authoritarian leadership style which embraces the right to control your comings and goings at a church.” – find out first when they graduated – Southern was very different before Al Mohler, and SEBTS was very different before Danny Akin – and not all graduates would go along with this – particularly at SEBTS – but you’re right to be wary
Back in the 80’s, someone – cannot recall who, maybe Dobson? – encouraged husbands to look at their wives (just look at her) and see if she looked happy. If she did not have a happy countenance, search yourself to determine what you were doing wrong. Because if she was not happy, it was likely because you were not treating her well.
It astounds me today to realize that husbands had to be TOLD to look at their wives. Wives were like the furniture, always there and functional.
Kudos to the wives who plowed on, whether happy or not. The job needed done, and she rose to the task, putting her own feelings aside,
Double kudos to the men who took the advice to heart and examined themselves. Not that it is their job to make their wife happy, but it is their responsibility to be good to her.
Women like Marie who have the fortitude to walk away from detrimental marriages are an inspiration. Thank you, Marie, for your willingness to live your story in the public arena,
@ Ken G:
A pastor in Maine (iirc) recently killed his daughter after his wife left him and may also have killed his first wife (who fell off a cliff when pregnant).
Let’s address one thing here. I am no historian, but I hear repeated mention of the Southern Baptists and slavery but very little balance on that subject. The south was and is a diverse place. The Southern Baptists are not the only group in town, nor were they during the Civil War. They could not possibly have single handedly defended slavery from a religious viewpoint to the extent that they swayed the politics of the south to go to war. Certain cities, for example, were heavily Catholic, including Charleston and New Orleans to name a couple. In the novel, the O’Haras were Catholic in Georgia. I really doubt that the Southern Baptists could have controlled the religious conversation to the extent that the catholics with/without the catholic church could have been forced to go along with the cause. The south has had Presbyterians and Methodists and Lutherans and Moravians and even Free Will Baptists from way back. And Masons aplenty. And lots of heathen folks. And I know not what else. Surely all those good folk could have silenced the Southern Baptists had they had a mind to do so.
Bridget wrote:
Don’t see why not at SBTS. Their own Distinguished Professor of Women’s Studies, Mary Kassian, lists doctoral studies in theology in her CV (not that she has any of the customary prerequisites to get into a doctoral program).
ION: Cricket
England lost the final test by ∞ runs.
IHTIH
Deb wrote:
dee wrote:
You betcha! And one of them is from me! I noticed that their FB page had a rating function (out of 5 stars), so I decided to give them a rating of one, and explained why by referring to Marie’s case. The next day, the rating system was gone for sure, and maybe even the whole page had gone dark by then.
It’s so hard for controlling types when they can’t control the narrative…
(I can post my comment from that day, if anyone’s interested. 🙂 )
ishy wrote:
Actually it was 50’s propaganda. Before the 50s many women found there there was life and work outside the home because the WWII labor shortage broke down old traditions. Many men of that period discovered this about women also. I am the son of one such woman and the man that respected her for it.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
In the late forties and nifty fifties as you call it people pretty much assumed that women went to college primarily to get their MRS. degree. Anything else they gained from college was pretty much secondary and incidental. And college was good hunting ground because boys back from the war were at college on the G I Bill and looking for women.
A subset of that included women who wanted to marry a preacher, and some colleges used this as a recruiting enticement to their college. Weekend missions teams would go out to churches and try to market that college along with some youth emphasis stuff. Here is a song the used to sing, to the tune of something or other.
My man’s a preacher man. He has a pulpit stand. He preaches everything from gospel on down. Some day I’ll be his wife. We’ll live a happy life. Ask me how I know; he told me so. And preachers don’t lie.
I think that being able to play the piano was a great help in the whole mating competition. From my vantage point in Louisville at the time I will add that the women who were at SBTS (religious education only) were largely considered to have failed to achieve the MRS in college and were making one last desperate stab at it at the seminary. No wonder the the boys want to go back to the fifties.
Linn wrote:
I’m guessing they may start having their hands full with this task.
Marie Notcheva wrote:
Glad to hear it.
Skebo0401 wrote:
Because it is the way it is taught, husbands are not instructed to submit to their wives. It’s teachers pick and choose their verses very carefully so as to avoid verses that would undermine their theology.
ishy wrote:
Precisely, unfortunately there’s no getting through to them on that.
ishy wrote:
I still can’t believe that there was an elder in my church who was going to lead the singles through a marriage Bible study – it’s just so wrong. That shows you how dedicated they are to these ideas that aren’t Biblical.
Regarding the preacher’s reply and the law.
He gets very nit picky in his application of the law:
“Pastor” Tim (or whomever wrote this stuff), you are really straining at a gnat to swallow a camel in all this.
Your contact with the woman, regardless of HOW often it was, or what YOUR MOTIVE was, is, from her perspective UNWANTED.
I don’t know about the legality of all this where you live, but ethically, unwanted contact is wrong, bad,
And it’s like the guy back in college who sweetly and nicely kept hitting on me for a date, though I repeatedly let him know I was not into him like that.
I still felt like I was being stalked, even though the dude was “nice” about things, and his motive was pure and for romance (I assume he didn’t want to harm me).
His romantic attention was still annoying, creepy, and stressed me out.
Further, at some point, you tell her in some e-mail or letter you are going to KEEP CALLING HER, which negates this part of your previous letter:
So, you were planning on phoning her MORE than once.
Going by what I see in these letters, I’d say that your purpose of your phone call(s) WAS INDEED to be harassing, not to “care for her soul,” or whatever other Christianese euphemism you want to make up.
You are like the pesky phone sales call guy who won’t take “no” for an answer and let the person go.
I wonder what it would take for Pastor Tim and the other males at this church to get the hint – I bet if these ladies had their father, brother, or an uncle call these guys and tell them to back off, they’d probably back off.
It’s so very sexist and sad that men like this will usually listen to another man but totally disregard a woman’s boundaries, her stated wishes, and her preferences.
It’s such thinking, I suspect, that plays a role in why some men abuse women in marriages to start with.
The pastors at this church are abusing these women all over again but seem blind to it, or they dang well know what they are doing (which is my suspicion), and they get their jollies from it.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
That was largely due to the antics of one Charles G. Finney of Second Great Awakening fame. He was convinced that “religious excitements” were needed to produce more conversions, and initially he appeared to be right. By the time of his death however, people in that area were simply burned out and cynical about Christianity.
Daisy wrote:
It was like he said ‘I haven’t hit the legal definition of harassment, yet, but I will go ahead and do that in the future’!
Marie Notcheva wrote:
No offense there Marie, but does he do it for meat or to acquire trophies?
Lea wrote:
The legal definition of harassment? Wow all she has to do is the police and he is in a world of trouble. He can be arrested and prosecuted for this. He can land in jail or state prison if convicted. Conspiring with the other pastors/elders is a criminal conspiracy.
Ordering other people to harass Marie, Jenn, or anyone else is also a criminal conspiracy. It’s time this pastor-fool sits down with a really good attorney to help him cool his jets before a pair of handcuffs has to be slapped on his wrists.
Skebo0401 wrote:
Why are you omitting verses, ripping things out of context? We are to submit to one another.
Matilda wrote:
If Jesus is any example, and I hold that he is THE example, God’s hierarchy of sins puts corrupt and powerful religious leaders at the very top. Those who “tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.”
From Original Post:
“It is obvious to this observer that this church has stepped over all boundaries in order to control an abused women,”
Or as my dad used to say, “This is intuitively obvious to the most casual observer.”
And not just control. But to further emotionally bludgeon and spiritually abuse.
…Second, the only purpose in making the call must be to annoy or to harass the other person…
Legally, who determines whether the call is annoying? The caller or recipient?
If a recipient has indicated that the call is annoying, Tim, why not take them at their word? You shouldn’t need the law to teach you how to behave like a man.
FW Rez wrote:
The rest of the book titles look nauseating too, but I just wanted to comment on this one, which I’ve never read.
I haven’t read that book, but, I can guess what some of its content must say.
I’ve heard many a sermon where the complementarian pastors try to make complementarianism sound appealing to women by using the same two or three lines.
Usually, complementarianism is sold to women using lines such as,
“Ladies, if your husband is loving you the way Christ loved the church, you won’t mind submitting to him at all! It will be a pleasure to submit to a man who is like Jesus.”
Complementarians try to take a sexist, patronizing belief set and make it sound appealing.
Kind of like car lots referring to a used car as “pre-owned,” or something.
But never mind complementarianism doesn’t work in real life the way pastors say it will or should.
If your doctrine is contingent upon a man being perfect like Jesus and acting like Jesus all the time (as comp stipulates), guess what? It’s bound to fail.
Because no man alive is perfect like Jesus, and a lot of selfish, abusive men like to use the facade of complementarianism to boss their wives around with impunity.
Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:
Thanks for pointing out this obvious discrepancy. Which one is it? Self-defense is such a God-given right that the church itself will teach you how to use a gun? Or suffering abuse is a good thing sent by God to make us (at least women, anyway) holy?
I have noticed some of the churches who are into the manly-man stuff are getting involved in gun-related stuff. It seems like a bad idea, to me, as I’ve read of some terrible accidents in the news. If a person wants training in using firearms they should seek out a serious, qualified teacher. JMHO
@ Lea:
There are many news reports of married pastors who get arrested for beating or murdering their wives, or hurting other people. This is just one of a zillion:
Pastor, 53, arrested at the airport after ‘stabbing his wife to death was heading to Europe to marry his boyfriend’
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2541359/Pastor-53-arrested-airport-stabbing-wife-death-heading-Europe-marry-boyfriend.html
[Alabma Preacher] Richard Shahan was arrested at Tennessee airport in January although he was required to stay in the country as police investigated his wife’s death
@ dee:
Yes and no.
A good friend of mine surprised me this week by telling me he would like to find a protestant church to attend for him and his family. He hasn’t been to church since he was 10 years old. He doesn’t know theology, if he wound up in one of these churches he could be in for a rough ride or just be so turned off that he’ll wonder why he bothered in the first place. Knowledge is power. My advice was stick to the faith he was raised in (Lutheran) and don’t get pressured into membership – especially signed membership.
Advice I would never have thought of had I not read it here.
@ okrapod:
I was brought up Southern Baptist. The Southern Baptists issued a formal apology some years ago about their role in the slavery debacle. I don’t know how many people know that, remember, or care.
But still, it seems popular for folks who are anti-Baptist to mention Southern Baptist former support of slavery, the way some severe anti-Roman Catholic types like to bring up pedophilia among some RC clergy every time there is a heated Catholic vs Protestant debate online.
FW Rez wrote:
What a joke. People would pay to be taught this rot? Good grief. This is a scandal.
okrapod wrote:
You are correct… there were a number of religious traditions in the south that supported slavery.. For that matter, it seems many of the religious traditions took awhile to get on board with civil rights.. the key in this discussion is that 1950’s might have been good conservative, rich whites in the south, and some people might want to go back to that.. I for one, do not..
@ Velour:
See my comment on the previous thread for more details, but “Skebo0401” is a chatbot, not a person.
Jamie Carter wrote:
The rabid Christian emphasis on marriage ironically leads even marriage-minded singles to drop church.
However, even though singles have told churches that the constant emphasis on marriage makes singles feel excluded, the response by some church people or Christian commentators, is to argue AGAINST addressing singleness.
I’ve actually seen them argue that to get more singles to get married or to attend church more, that churches need to promote marriage even more. They are totally unwilling to consider what singles are saying.
Most singles, when they see that ten weeks of Marriage- themed sermons are scheduled on the church announcement bulletin board are upcoming, intentionally do not attend church during those ten weeks.
But the marriage pushers don’t get it.
Emphasizing marriage even more in Christian communities or churches will only alienate singles more, not attract more singles to your church, or somehow make more marriages happen.
Churches need to minister to singles as singles, and not keep bantering on about how great marriage is. For marriage-minded singles, this is preaching to the choir anyway.
I am single. I’d like to be married. You don’t have to convince me to get married. My problem is not lack of desire, but that I cannot find a “Mr. Right.”
In the meantime, I’d like to be acknowledged as a single and have my single status ministered to as it is, not ignored or treated as though it’s second-best to being married, or to just give me pep talks on “how to be a great wife some day.”
I’d prefer to get encouragement or tips on how to be single while I am single.
FW Rez wrote:
Let me translate for you: she was allowed to audit classes at SBTS that include doctoral candidates. SBTS especially goes to great pains to market their products in ways that matter and impress, when the actual content simply isn’t there. I think it is fundamentally dishonest for SBTS to even pretend to offer PhDs, since the student can’t substantially disagree with the school. That is neither education nor critical thinking. So a “PhD” from SBTS is fundamentally different from a PhD from a real school.
Lea wrote:
Yep.
I had one boss at one job years ago who harassed me. One problem I had with her is that her form of bullying did not usually break any specific employer rules.
She managed to bully me, but not in a way that technically violated employer guidelines.
That’s what this church is doing to these women.
Or, they are arguing their stalking and harassment of her is acceptable so long as they do it in such a way the skirts the law in their city or state.
I wonder, if Pastor Tim had a niece, daughter, or granddaughter, and some guy kept calling her, asking her for dates, in spite of her many “no’s”, would Tim still think it’s okay for the guy to keep calling his female relative and hitting on her, so long as the guy was polite about it?
To me it’s analogous to what he’s doing as a pastor to women church members (or ex-members), and neither scenario is acceptable.
ishy wrote:
I have been thinking over this statement and trying to analyze it through my (limited) personal experience at SEBTS. I am struck by three factors that most likely play a part in developing this mindset:
1. From the moment they matriculate, the young men (almost exclusively) are bombarded with the teaching that they are specially “called by God” and that they are in training for the most important vocation in the world – pastoring (in this context, a Southern Baptist church, but the mindset is the same elsewhere).
2. Complementarianism is emphasized so that the wife knows that she needs to submit to whatever her husband decides. Who is she to question the decisions of or have a different opinion than the man of God. While not actually quoted, the underlying thought is “touch not mine anointed”
3. Families are emphasized, and lip service is paid to “lose your family, lose your ministry,” but the subtle and not-so-subtle implications are that the family has to sacrifice due to the husband’s/father’s call to ministry.
I can remember two examples of ‘godly’ men whose wives were not on board with the programs – John Wesley (I believe) and William Carey. Neither were mentioned in a context that stated, or even implied, that they should have paid more attention to their wives than their ministries.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
That makes sense, except for why anyone would bother programming something like that…
Max wrote:
Can they possibly combine any more letters and create a meaningless degree??? Not a Ph.D., not an Ed.D., not even a D.Min. – it is a D.Ed.Min. Is that pronounced dead min(istry)? Maybe there is more truth to it than I originally thought.
@ Remnant:
One person’s supposed, “Just trying to be a good Christian and shepherd your soul for Jesus!”
Is another person’s, “Hey Bozo, these calls are unwelcome, buzz off.”
I suspect it just burns his male ego and his biscuits that a woman is not caving in to HIS whims as some church muckity-muck.
To a point, the New Testament does call for Christians to “police” the behavior of other believers (as in 1 Cor 5 and gross, unrepentant sin), but, some of these churches, like with Pastor Tim, go overboard with the concept, to the point they are trying to dictate to other adults what life choices they may or may not make.
I don’t think whether to divorce an abusive spouse is a topic that is left up to pastors or church elders to decide, but to the people who comprise the marriage (or at least the target of the marital abuse).
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Got it. Thanks, Nick.
Burwell wrote:
I see this sort of attitude on Christian TV quite a bit, on TBN, which is mostly Pentecostal and Charismatic, but they do get Christians from other denominations and schools of thought on their shows.
I’m not saying being a pastor is Un-Important, but,
IMO, it’s not quite up there with being a rocket scientist, researching the cure for cancer, or a Marine who served in Iraq or Afghanistan.
But my goodness, the talking heads and pastors on TBN act as though being a preacher ranks right up there with those sorts of professions, as though it’s as important or difficult, and IMO, it is not.
You can maybe argue that spreading the Gospel is mucho importante (and that is one component of what pastors do), okay, but even a five year old child can share the Gospel. One does not have to wear a white collar and work in a building with a steeple as a professional Christian to do so.
I’m sure being a pastor comes with its own set of struggles, but being shot at in the line of duty, like a cop would have to do, is not one of them.
You have people working min. wage positions who stand on their feet all day selling fries. They’d probably prefer to switch places and the issues that come with being a pastor with a pastor.
Christiane wrote:
Although the research that has been cited many times here shows that there is a high percentage of clergy with Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
Daisy wrote:
This got me to thinking when I saw my post again as I was scrolling down the page…
Are there any Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses in Pastor Tim’s area?
Can Pastor Tim’s home address and/or phone number be given out to these groups (I am kidding, trying to make a point here)?
I’m sure Pastor Tim would enjoy regular visits at his home and phone calls from Mormons and JWs to try to convert him to their respective faiths.
After all, they would only contact him repeatedly and get into extended, annoying theological debates with him because they care for his soul. So their motive is not to be annoying.
So Pastor Tim would be cool with hearing from Mormons and JWs on a consistent basis?
Would Pastor Tim like repeated calls from insurance salesmen or aluminum siding sales people? Their motives are not bad either. They just want to sell him some neat stuff.
In the future, if Deb and Dee would like to dedicate another song to the Pastor Tims of the world, who keep contacting former members who don’t want to be contacted, may I suggest this song by Blondie
(if you’re tired of the Eagles “Hotel California”):
One Way Or Another by Blondie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nQ9PlLW4Gc
Partial lyrics:
One way or another, I’m gonna find ya’
I’m gonna get ya’, get ya’, get ya’, get ya’
…One day maybe next week, I’m gonna meet ya’
I’m gonna meet ya’, I’ll meet ya’
I will drive past your house and if the lights are all down – I’ll see who’s around
Daisy wrote:
Since 2009, a slight majority of adult women in the USA are single (as in, not married, divorced or widowed). The churches (and there are so, so many) which concentrate only on the married are missing out on a huge chunk of American women and our families. Ignoring singles is not going to help you grow your church.
Well… Well… Well…
Seems another “Authoritarian” website bites… err… bites the dust…
And NO longer allows folks to comment… 🙂
Looks like Church Leaders .com
Has gone the way of 9Marks
Hmmm? What could they be afraid of???
And – Has removed the ability for folks to comment.
Can’t have the pew-peons dis-agreeing with the big muckey-muks…
And – Has removed ALL previous comments.
Yeah – Gotta destroy the evidence.
xxxxxxxxxx
But – Maybe someone can check them out…
It might be just me who can NO longer see the comment section.
xxxxxxx
This post even asks for comments – But – Alas – NO comment section. 🙁
http://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-articles/174131-scott-postma-pastors-you-should-have-major-concerns-about.html
The writer ends with…
“These are a few of my concerns about pastors.”
“What are your concerns? Let me know in the comments.”
FW Rez wrote:
Someone needs to write the book:
Cultivating a Church Where Women and Children Can Feel Truly Safe
This bunch clearly needs it.
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
I completely agree, I have been the advisor to over 25 Ph.D.’s
@ Muslin fka Deana Holmes/mirele:
I agree.
There are also not as many traditional nuclear families.
A lot of married couples do not have children, either due to choice or inability (health problems).
I’ve read a fair number of comments or blog posts by middle aged, empty nesters who say they now feel alienated by their church of 15+ years because their youngest kid is no longer at home, is off at college, and they suddenly realize that 99% of churches are all about Nuclear Family (Mom + Dad + small kids at home).
The intense focus on marriage ‘n family just marginalizes so many people, and it’s easily rectified, but not many churches seemed interested.
siteseer wrote:
I suspect God puts a very high value on kindness.
Velour wrote:
How do you know that Pastor Tim did not consult an attorney? The portion of his reply regarding Mass law may have been prepared by an attorney and his overall reply may have been reviewed by an attorney. Please be careful who you call a fool.
FW Rez wrote:
Beer and Guns and Bromance?
FW Rez wrote:
“RULERS OF TOMORROW! MASTER RACE!”
— Ralph Bakshi, Wizards (said by the bad guy)
FW Rez wrote:
And from what we’ve seen this book needs to be rewritten because they are getting it wrong.
Or perhaps just the title is wrong. If we call upon the truth in advertising clause, perhaps it should be called:
Preserving a Marriage at All Costs: How to sacrifice expendable humans to on the sacred altar of marriage.
Ken G wrote:
If you read my other posts about Pastor Tim, I not only would agree with Velour that there’s a good chance he’s a “Pastor-Fool,” but IMO, based on his behavior as it’s been reported on this last two posts, I’ve come to the conclusion that the guy is likely a sadist and misogynist, too.
NJ wrote:
Wasn’t Finney the one who first introduced or popularized all-or-nothing Altar Call/Magic Words salvation and Pre-Trib Rapture in American Christianity?
Muslin fka Deana Holmes/mirele wrote:
Already anticipated you, Mirele.
Three words: QUIVERFULL BEDROOM EVANGELISM.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
I’m Average Joe Academic at Average State U, not a distinguished academic like Dr. Chalmers, have never mentored a student through the PhD process and don’t even have one myself, but am surrounded by them and having worked in academia for 14 years, I agree also, a PhD from an institution such as SBTS should never be equated with one from a bona fide academic institution. No comparison. My apologies to anyone who received a higher degree from SBTS “before the crazies took over” (as a couple friends with graduate degrees from SBTS earned in the 1980s put it), have been told the place once had academic standards and once had something to do with a genuine search for truth rather than a rigid affirmation of party line.
Burwell wrote:
I was referring a bit more specifically to people who act like they speak for Christian families everywhere, but their own families are a mess.
Having gone to Liberty U, then SEBTS, and having worked at NAMB–the people who talk the loudest about all Christians doing things a certain way are the ones who are usually the biggest failures at it. But like others have said, they likely have NPD and can’t see that they are failures. But everybody else can.
I have specific examples, but I believe many of the people I know who are examples of this are victims. But to those of you who think you are all that in Baptistland–there are people who see you for who you really are.
Ken G wrote:
Attorneys can be fools also. I know, I used to be one.
A. Amos Love wrote:
I found the same post here:
http://www.scottpostma.net/2014/04/10/pastoral-care/#disqus_thread
with a total of 439 comments that come up. I haven’t read any of the comments but they are showing.
Lea wrote:
There are generally two reasons.
1) To see whether they can. It is kind of rewarding to engineer something, and then find out that it works. I’m studying the various major web-development languages etc myself the noo, and I can attest to this. Though none of my stuff is conducive to producing a chatbot, I have to say. Plus, a working chatbot could be said to have passed the Turing Test.
2) For malicious ends. A working chatbot can be used to clutter a thread with spam and anger, distract people or generally cause disruption. Under some circumstances they can be used in phishing scams by conning/goading people into revealing personal details. It’s interesting, for instance, that this one posted a link to the wordpress login for TWW. I’m not familiar with hackery and other skullduggerous coding, so exactly how that would do so I don’t know, but that might be some form of attempt to hack the TWW site.
Ken G wrote:
I actually thought, in the case of Marie, that the earlier example of unwanted contact by Pastor Cockrell would work well for her if she ever had to seek a restraining order for some reason or another.
I’d also point out that merely citing the statute and then claiming it means three unwanted contacts does not mean I wouldn’t tell him yet again to buzz off. Just citing the statute cuts no ice with me. I want to see case law. Because I can tell you there is very likely no bright-line rule that says you have to allow someone three unwanted contacts based on case law. On top of that, it says volumes that Cockrell had that information at his fingertips. How many other people has he harassed in this way?
Personally, I think Cockrell copied that information from some website or another. A competent attorney would have told him he was inviting a restraining order with continued contact to someo e who has made it clear s/he wants nothing to do with him. At least that’s what I’d tell him but I don’t practice law any more.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
That’s not a word. But I think we can all agree that it should be.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
The pre-trib rapture came to us via the chain Edward Irving, Alexander Dowie, C.I. Scofield and his KJV Bible and notes, and then Hal Lindsey and his many, many books. I doubt Finney ever heard of the pre-trib rapture.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
It is now. Just not that much in popular usage yet.
Along that line, when we tried to learn some Mandarin at the local community college, with no success by the way, the native speaker who was teaching the class took this approach. After we had expanded our vocabulary to maybe 10 words at most he announced that now we could all say the we speak Mandarin but just not very much. I love that attitude.
Good fortune to your new word.
Muslin fka Deana Holmes/mirele wrote:
It seems like a dumb thing for an attorney to suggest you write down on paper especially if he plans to violate it later, as stated in the letter!, but there are dumb attorneys so who knows.
Muslin fka Deana Holmes/mirele wrote:
Al Mohler has said that he does not hold with pre-trib rapture theory and that he is not a dispensationalist but that he has hired people who are. I am thinking if he can hire people whose thinking differs so much in this area why can he not be more flexible in the area of gender relationships, especially since good biblical arguments can be made for more flexibility.
I think the ‘why’ is because the motivation behind much of the gender stuff has little or nothing to do with honest and thorough examination of scripture.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
English is the easiest of languages when it comes to coining new words.
Lea wrote:
Or attorney is a Yes-Man united behind The Visionary.
Law Prof wrote:
I do not think that a PhD from some of these places, and SBTS fits the picture, can compare with some of the education we have in our family, and not one of us has a PhD, if one is to judge from some of the nonsense that gets spewed out of some mouths. And what then, are we required to sit and listen to poorly thought out drivel while saying ‘yes sir, no sir, and how high sir’? I will not do it. No way. Such as that does not command respect.
@ Law Prof:
The word “distinguished” typically means something to us in the real academic world, and while I wish I had that title, alas, I do not.. And, my colleagues would not be happy if I went around with that title!
It does concern me very much with these “Christian” schools go around giving out Ph.D.’s. A true Ph.D. is not easy to get, and does require original research.. which would not be possible at these schools given their rigid belief system…
I always shake my head when these places give out Ph.D., and people proclaim them from these places… My question is why? Those of us in the real academic world know they are not equivalent, and the type of places that award them typically put down/bash/try to discredit us in the real academic world.. So, what is their true purpose. I will let you all decide. But you all note, I do not use my title here, and I do not really think it is that relevant….
@ Jeffrey J . Chalmers:
I tried to google you. Hope you don’t mind. Not sure if I found you or somebody else.
Anyhow, even distinguished is not a sign of perfection. Everybody makes mistakes and gets confused and distracted sometimes. I ran into a youtube lecture by Bart Ehrman, James A Gray Distinguished Professor of Religion at UNC Chapel Hill. Sounds good doesn’t? Heck, it is good. Anyhow he was discussing the Arian Controversy and went on and on about the Council of Nicea and how the debate was between Arius and his bishop Alexander (?!). He kept saying Alexander. I got tired of it an did not finish the video so I don’t know what he did when he realized what he was saying. So, I am glad he is Distinguished like the introducer made sure to say, but he may need to get some more sleep or something to stay at his best.
NJ wrote:
This seems to be a cyclical pattern, in the U.S. at least.
Lea wrote:
Interesting how he was familiar with the exact legal definition, isn’t it.
@ Jeffrey J . Chalmers:
wouldn’t it be better for a minister to go to a real university’s theological studies program to get a Ph.D. ?
I mean a university that is accredited by a reputable accrediting entity?
If someone is going to ask people to call him or her ‘Doctor’, then they ought to be able to back it up with the proper credentials, or they become laughing stocks to them what knows better. Pitiful to see someone who ‘needs’ to be called ‘Doctor’ anyway outside of their professional duties, especially if their ‘doctorate’ is worthless in the ‘real’ world.
@ siteseer:
And interesting how flippant he is about it all.
Update:
Apparently HBC is going to be holding an all church meeting allegedly to discuss Marie’s discipline. Can you imagine?
Anyone who attends that meeting and doesn’t stand up from Marie, should be ashamed of themselves.
@ Mara:
I just noticed he said his behavior is only annoying because of her ‘spiritual condition’.
@ Law Prof:
Great comment. Thank you.
Jack wrote:
Great advice. Most Lutheran churches do not have signed membership contracts and they stick to some vetted liturgy which cuts down on the cray cary of the Calvinists.
Christiane wrote:
I like what you said. tis pastors has *become* something other than a pastor. I wonder if he ever imagined that he would be beating on a poor, abused woman for his living?
dee wrote:
Great observation Christiane.
Dee – not A singular abused woman, Women,
dee wrote:
Since Marie is no longer even a member and wants to be left alone I’ll take it a step further: anyone who still attends that disaster of a church at ALL, for any reason, should be ashamed. They could also use a checkup from the neck up.
@ dee:
Doubling down??
In Galatians (I think) it says to bear ye one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ. I just don't see that in Heritage Church in their treatment of Marie and other's like her. Maybe they just forgot to read this part of the Bible. (lol). But in my view, we as Christians should always bear the burdens of others, not make them worse. My niece's husband is a youth minister. I know he practices bearing other burdens. I know he and my niece do that all the time. That's what my family grew up doing. Not throwing the first stones. This minister is so busy pointing his finger at Marie and her so called sins, that he isn't seeing the fingers pointing back to his sin. Be sure you are free of sin before you throw that stone. Otherwise, eventually it will come back to bite you in a place you don't want it to.
Ken G wrote:
This “pastor” has EARNED the title of “fool”. He’s actually earned far worse. So stop enabling his bad behavior.
Could you please post the name of the criminal attorney that he consulted. Or did he just try to look up some code himself. A really good attorney would have scared the daylights out of him and told him to knock it off. A really good attorney, if he’d hired one, would have been willing to put their own name on their letterhead and made such statements.
I work in law.
Muslin fka Deana Holmes/mirele wrote:
Don’t forget the ‘father of modern dispensationalism’ John Nelson Darby:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nelson_Darby
I get a kick out of the photo – he looks like Lurch.
@ Velour:
Mass law?
if Marie is anywhere near Boston, I recommend the law firm of Sally & Fitch. No one can touch them for results. Many of them are in the category of ‘Massachusetts Super Lawyers’, the best.
Christiane wrote:
Marie, Please contact the above firm a.s.a.p., including by email.
Golly, I missed K. Wright’s training this week, posted Dec.14: “Tonight I start a training at Heritage entitled Confronting Sin, Restoring Relationships, Building Community in room 7 at 6:30. If you can’t make it tonight, I will repeat this unit Sunday morning at 9am in the gym and Monday night at 6:30 in room 6. The entire training focuses in on how to have those difficult conversations with one another that promote holiness and unity. And that all starts with realizing how desperate you are to have others speak grace and hard truth to you, when you need it.”
Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:
My ex-pastor Cliff McManis at Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley has a patchwork of diploma mill “higher degrees”, including a Phony Degree (“Ph.D.”) for $299. According to the U.S. Department of Education and the Missouri Attorney General it’s a diploma mill and a fraudulent operation, Bible College in Independence, Missouri.
My ex-pastor now claims to be doing “post-doctoral work” on the church’s website. How can someone who NEVER earned a real Ph.D. be claiming that a few online classes constitutes post-doctoral work?
It’s shocking how many people go to GBFSV with ‘real degrees’, including graduates of Stanford University and U.C.L.A., and put their hard-earned money in the collection plate, and haven’t vetted this snake-oil salesman at the pulpit.
Former members who fled the church were on to him and vetted his degrees before I did.
They caught on to him. How incompetent he was and his drivel for 90 minute sermons.
Jenny wrote:
wow, another riding on the coat-tails of the famous: Darby’s godfather was Lord Nelson who, if you know British naval history, was and is an idol in Britain. I wonder if he traded on his godfather’s fame for credibility the same way as Billy Graham’s grandson Tullian has benefited from his famous grandpa? Yeah …. Lurch. Those EYES! yikes!
dee wrote:
Please, oh please, smart people use your i-phones and tape that meeting! We want to hear it. Have Deb and Dee transcribe it.
Daisy wrote:
i am single, never-married, and at almost 60 years of age, will probably stay single. I’ve had a very fulfilled life, spiritually, ministerially, and professionally, and I don’t see any reason to change it now. I don’t think churches realize how much ministry gets done by singles, especially older singles, because we do have more time to dedicate to things we love. I teach Sunday school, help with our tutoring program, serve on a couple committees, and I am more apt to be able to drop everything because I don’t have people at home to care for if help is needed in an emergency. My church would be missing several ministries without the single adults who do them. I am thankful to be in a church that notices us (which is why more singles continue to come). We do have a ministry aimed at the single under 30s, which is appropriate, but after that, you fine where you fit…and that has worked great for me in the 16 years I have with the church.
It seems that my Yelp review of Heritage Bible Church got under their skin. They had Yelp remove it. Perhaps some of you would like to leave reviews?
“Removed Content:
Just wow!
I have never been here, but judging from what has been alleged by past members this would seem to be a very controlling place. Read for yourself:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/12/16/heritage-bible-chapel-admonishes-a-former-member-to-repent-or-else/#comments
Regards,
The Yelp Support Team
San Francisco, California
Lea wrote:
I’ve gone to good churches and not-so-good churches, but nearly every pastor I’ve ever dealt with has been overworked, starting the day by holding someone’s hand in pre-op at 5 a.m.; proceeding to the church office to counsel folks, plan weddings and funerals, and prepare for and preside over worship services (seven days a week); and finishing off by returning calls or emails after dinner. This, I think, is an enduring practice in the mainline and other denominations with full-time paid clergy. Of course, these tend to be churches without much prestige these days…
Which is why I don’t think any of them should get royalties from their books or be allowed to keep speaking fees. My husband works for a high tech company. If he creates something new – chip, process etc – his name is on the patient as a contributor, but the company owns the patent. He gets a might get a small stipend, but the real money goes to the company. These pastors don’t live in the real world.Lea wrote:
Linn wrote:
That’s why Paul said that those who are married have divided interests whereas those who are single are concerned about the things of the Lord! 1 Cor. 7
Bless you for your ministry to others, Linn!
ION:
I stand corrected, as it turns out “skullduggerous” is a word.
GNFS
zzzzzz
BJ wrote:
I don’t know if I completely agree with this, as even in Silicon Valley, if you write a book or speak, it would be in your name and the money would go to you. That’s how book and speaking contracts are handled.
However, when I’ve written books, they’ve been on my own time, even if I had a full-time job.
I think a first step would be to tell congregations if you:
1. Use a sermon-writing service
2. Use church finances for your books (looking at you, Driscoll!)
I’m betting 95% of teaching pastors in larger churches were hired with the expectation that they would be writing their own sermons. I think it’s that which gives pastors a lot of extra free time to write books, though I know that some have ghostwriters do that for them. too.
And some of these guys are just utter fakes–everything they do was created by someone else. They’re just high-paid window dressing.
Jenny wrote:
My other writing partner (the burned-out country preacher) credits John Nelson Darby and Hal Lindsay with destroying Protestant Christianity in America.
Talmidah wrote:
“Meathead. MEAT. HEAD. Dat means Dead from the Neck Up.”
— Archie Bunker
@ ishy:
Some use their church office personnel to type their manuscripts or transcribe their sermons into manuscripts (on company time), then they self-publish and collect the profits.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
?
Law Prof wrote:
It’s been said by REAL PhDs in the comment threads here that when someone flashes his Doctorate around (even demanding to be called “Doctor” all the time), IT’S A FAKE — HONORARY OR SENT IN BOX TOPS TO A DIPLOMA MILL.
Reverend Larry awards Reverend Moe an Honorary Doctorate.
Reverend Moe awards Reverend Curly an Honorary Doctorate.
Reverend Curly awards Reverend Larry an Honorary Doctorate.
NYUK! NYUK! NYUK!
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Thanks for responding, Nick. I never presume anyone has to respond to a request anyway, but you did clear up a bit of confusion. I am not anti-charismatic by any means, but I see the abuses as well in that arena, so I am pretty much on the same page as you there.
Interesting that Starke happens to have posted an article on partner abuse today!
— Dee or Deb can you pass my email to Nick B. please?
Bridget wrote:
Should be “Storkey”
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Thanks for that history lesson, HUG. I learn something new every day! That was a new term for me.
ishy wrote:
It makes me think of the “kinder, gentler” retired pastor who was interim in our former church in between pastors. We went to him for counsel in our troubled family. His counsel: Our troubled teen should work harder at being obedient, and I should work harder at being submissive.
Needless to say, things got superficially better for a little while as we tried harder to make something work that wasn’t working, and then they got a whole lot worse, and kept deteriorating until we got out of that church in the end. There’s still a lot of baggage to work through.
“Just do more of the same, and do more of it, and do it with all your heart” … and expect a different outcome. Yeah, isn’t that similar to the popular definition of insanity?
FW Rez wrote:
I don’t think hers is even legitimate.
Mara wrote:
No kidding!
Bill M wrote:
Bill M, do you mean this was 50s propaganda to get women out of the workforce and back into the home, to make room for the men coming home from the war? Or did I misunderstand something?
I do seem to remember being taught things about being a godly woman (wife and mother) that, in retrospect, seem to have come out of June Cleaver’s playbook. Or Donna Reed’s, perhaps?
Things that you could sum up by saying, when the husband comes home from working hard all day, he should come home to a clean and tidy house, the table set, the smell of a delicious dinner cooking (and about ready to put on the table, after he’s had a little time to wind down, perhaps with the newspaper, after kicking off his shoes and putting on his slippers and sitting down in his easy chair), cheerful and loving greetings from his clean, well-behaved, probably recently-bathed-and-changed-into-clean-clothes children. Oh, and shortly before he’s due home, his wife should get out of her housecleaning/childminding clothes, maybe take a shower, put on makeup and heels and pearls and nice clothes and perfume and greet him at the door with a kiss.
After all, a man is the king of his castle.
Not sure what that makes the wife, actually.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Darby came up with his theology while recuperating from a fall off his horse. That is the best explanation for the existence of dispensationalism that I’ve ever heard.
@ Bridget:
99.9% sure Mary Kassian doesn't have a Ph.D.
I believe God is hardening the hearts of the pastors and elders at Heritage Bible Chapel.
May He have mercy on them!
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Darby also was a formative influence on Watchman Nee in China.
One notable offshoot of Darby’s Exclusive Brethren is the Raven-Taylor-Hales group, which is about as cultish as you can get.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_Brethren_Christian_Church
Getting locked into a pastoral mindset that disobeying pastors puts flocksters in a state of disobedience to God is extremely hazardous. As many an abused person can substantiate, the whole climate of “obey your leaders” can have life of death consequences.
Church leaders and congregants, please consider the ramifications of false teachings and expectations about “obedience.”
If I had obeyed my pastor’s “direction” (which I didn’t even realize at the time that he intended that I follow) my brother would have died.
I’m the one who lives with the outcomes of my decisions. My pastor would not have been there for all the years of the rest of my life without my brother.
What are church relationships in comparison with my brother’s life? Shunning, smeared reputation, lost relationships — a small, infinitely small price, for my brother’s continuing presence in my life.
For those who may be affected — a warning — reference to my brother’s attempted suicide upcoming.
Apparently there’s now a website that is like Wikileaks, but is for documents related to the Mormon church.
There ought to be something like this for evangelical megachurches, too.
https://mormonwikileaks.com
Bridget wrote:
Didn’t Mary claim to have “studied at the doctoral level”? And no one here knows what she’s talking about.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Yup. Heard Tim Bayly with my own ears claim that the church has grown more from families (having children and evangelizing them) than from “going out into the world to make disciples.” He’s not the only one teaching this, but he said it the clearest that I heard at the time. I have it written down, word for word, but not close at hand at the moment.
Through some college friends who invited me to a Bible study, I got involved with what I now would call a “church plant”
At the time I joined, the most mature persons in the church were the pastors. Their children were in middle elementary school grades as compared to the next closest age group — the 3 year olds. The most mature person was 38 years old.
The pastor about whom I am speaking has already passed away. I had occasion to see him in a church parking lot after a wedding at which time I told him that I had forgiven him.
He said he’d been thinking he probably ought to get around to asking my forgiveness. He’d really “agonized over that.”
I’ve learned from Statement Analysis Blog — if a person doesn’t say something, we can’t say it for him or her. That was all the pastor said. He never actually asked me to forgive him. He never actually specified what “that” referred to.
Of my whole church debacle, his actions were the hardest ones for me to forgive. What we can take for ourselves, we often can’t take so well for our loved ones. God gets the credit for my ability to tell this pastor that I really forgave him — a gift of grace, for sure.
My brother called me very late one Saturday night. His last comment before he hung up set off alarm bells. I felt like he was really in trouble, but I wasn’t sure. I think sometimes God just won’t let us rest until we act. This was one of those times for me. I was energized with concern.
Amy Smith wrote:
They’re implementing Damage Control. Watch out…soon they will be deleting sermons from their church website and canceling their Facebook page. Better start taking screen shots. What are they afraid of? Isn’t the truth supposedly on their side? See Pastor. See Pastor run. Run Pastor, run! (Taken from the ‘Dick and Jane’ series of children’s books)
dee wrote:
See Pastor. See Pastor run. Run, Pastor, run!
trs wrote:
You are the brave soul, having gone through pain and then forgiving.
What does it mean, “…thinking he probably ought to get around to…” doing the right thing?
No wonder the wheels have left the Temple (Ezekiel) or the presence of God has left the institution of the church, when the leadership has thoughts of doing the right thing but does not act on obedience – when they “get around to it”. Lame.
God help us.
When I called the emergency contact person I had for my brother — a physician who was a personal friend — I found the number was to his exchange. They wouldn’t put me through.
(My brother lived a few hours away from me.)
I asked if they would put my pastor, as a professional, through. They said have him call. Almost midnight on a Saturday night. We also were supposed to call the pastor as a last result, after taking other steps first. I figured I would gladly make amends — wash his family’s cars for the rest of the year, take the kids to the park, etc. for disturbing him. I would abjectly apologize. I figure we could talk it through. Worth it to make sure my brother was okay.
He wouldn’t call. Let’s just say he was not supportive. He told me to drop it. Just call it a night and everything would be fine in the morning.
I didn’t fault him I just figured God had a different way to handle the situation. “Dropping it” was not happening. I barely heard and didn’t even remember that part until later.
I absolutely did not know what to do. I fully believe God guided me.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Bill Gothard anyone?
dee wrote:
Power of the People! Yeah!
okrapod wrote:
I think it’s because eschatology has become much less of an issue for the “high-minded” evangelical seminaries. It’s not likely you’re going to get canned if you hold to partial preterism. But suggest in a denomination that women might be able to speak from the pulpit or the joys of egalitarian marriage and you’ll likely be given the left foot of fellowship. Another hot one these days is young earth creationism. People have lost their teaching jobs for failing to believe in a dogma that contradicts all the physical evidence we have in front of us. *sigh*
trs wrote:
Yes, I believe He did also.
Lea wrote:
Right. I noticed that, too. IOW, in his view, she is to blame for the annoyance factor, because of her spiritual condition. Whatever that means. All she really needs to do is come to heel, like a good little doggie, and the annoyance will all evaporate.
I was also pondering the “sexual sin” discussion, and decided that it might be possible, in their apparently twisted view, for them to say that she was in sexual sin insofar as she is refusing her (ex?) husband his “due” by right of having married him in the first place.
Now you know, and I know, that this is a bunch of hogwash, but they apparently don’t know that.
Worst advertisement trying to encourage single women to marry that I’ve ever seen. It does just the opposite.
It’s like they’re actually saying, “Woman, don’t ever marry, or you will enter into eternal servitude and misery–but we’ll call it blessed, because believers are called to suffer.”
dee wrote:
Do we know when this meeting is?
Jenny wrote:
I knew I was forgetting someone! This is what happens when you’re trying to write something on your phone and don’t want to mess around checking citations.
refugee wrote:
Sometimes, this belief goes hand in hand with racial segregationism.
I ended up calling a crisis counselor in my brother’s city. I expressed my concern as well as my uncertainty that there was even anything to be concerned about.
I am so thankful for that woman. She could and did authorize the police to go and enter my brother’s home. He had overdosed on prescription medication.
The counselor kept feeding me information all night long. She stayed with me via telephone through the whole thing.
Sometimes, you just know you need to pray and God just keeps you praying until you’re done. That night was one of those time for me. I couldn’t even think about getting in the car to make the drive. I couldn’t drive and pray at the same time. I was lost in prayer. If Jesus had been physically present, I would have been hanging onto His ankles, pleading with Him to save my brother’s life, and not letting Him go until He did. I was on the floor, on my face, I was pacing, I was yelling, I was punching furniture, I was raising up my hands, I may even have lapsed into “angelic language” or possibly just gibberish, words just ran out sometimes with the intensity of my pleading.
My brother’s heart stopped 3 times while they were purging his system. God spared him, though.
I asked the counselor what would have happened if I hadn’t called. She said he would have died. I asked her because I wanted a professional, non-subjective answer to the question.
Loren R Haas wrote:
My ex church Grace Bible Fellowship
Of Silicon Valley also had Yelp take down my reviews. Google did take down 1. I rewrote it and Google let it stay. So I suggest you write a Google review beneath the church address. Hundreds of people wrote Google reviews about Julie Anne’s ex church in Oregon.
@ Muslin, fka Dee Holmes & mirele:
From what I understand, it is tomorrow night.
Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:
Are they getting ready for the End Times when they will have to defend themselves against all those UNREGENERATED FOLKS out there? Us versus Them mentality?
In the morning, after I had informed my parents, who lived quite a bit farther away, as a courtesy I let my pastor know I was on my way over to see my brother in the hospital. He was in ICU in critical condition. My dad was also making arrangements to meet me there.
Here’s the part that was so hard.
My pastor said, “No, you’re not. You’re coming to church — all the services. See you there.” That was it. All the services meant I wouldn’t even leave until around 1:00 in the afternoon.
I just could NOT grasp this pastor’s response. Could. not. get. it. Nobody, no matter what they believe, acts like that in such a situation.
Lea wrote:
Note about money and another abusive ministry, Piper and Desiring God et al: Piper is now doing ad videos to raise money for Desiring God. I was connecting with a slow cooker recipe video and who should pop up on the screen with an enormous head-shot, the Pied Piper himself. He was asking for funds for Desiring God. Wonder how much those ads cost and why DG is now doing them to raise money. I took a screen shot but here is the website, cooktopcove.com, and a link to where this ad showed up (don’t know if the same ad pops up every time with the same recipe): http://bit.ly/2h824pi.
Max wrote:
It belongs in the DSM of Mental Disorders.
ishy wrote:
Maybe we need a new term, like “news-readers” on the BBC. Maybe, “Sermon-readers.”
One of our local guys is in the middle of a series that has been done in several other churches. I keep wishing he would at least acknowledge where the original outlines came from, or how much of the message is original. Preaching someone else’s sermon as if it was your own… In the English Department we would have called that plagarism, and it would have been grounds for punishment… Not a way to build a ministry.
I know, some ministers work really hard and pour their hearts out. I know a few of those too.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
HUG, I can always count on you for a good laugh. Thanks for lightening things up! 😉
@ Darlene:
Facebook page has been suspended (at least for now).
Gram3 wrote:
And another reason these guys won’t challenge what they’ve been taught is because they’ve bought hook, line, and sinker into the belief that the majority of ills in our society are due to the Evils of Feminism. And now Feminism has taken over most of the church. In order to remain Manly Men (in their eyes), they mustn’t capitulate to the Feminists.
@ Serving Kids In Japan:
yes please!!
Here’s one big reason I’m sharing this traumatic situation from my life. Perhaps the situation can serve as a graphic illustration of the real dangers inherent in the authoritarian stance that this blog so aptly and dedicatedly exposes.
This pastor got so locked into the idea that whatever he did and said was from God that he couldn’t deal with information that challenged that notion. He couldn’t adjust to the reality of my situation. His concern was not for my brother’s life, but for the fact that I had NOT followed through on what he told me to do. That is really scary.
I could not get this for the longest time. Now I see so much more clearly. Reading this and other survivor blogs has helped immensely to clarify the picture.
I didn’t hold the pastor’s response on that Saturday night against him. I really didn’t. Who is equipped for that kind of emergency. Perhaps I would have done the same thing in that situation.
What has been so difficult for me was how I was treated AFTERWARDS. It’s not that I got zero empathy from my church “family.” I do not control other people’s behavior. Everyone is free to respond the way they choose.
It was worse than that. I was treated as if I had done something wrong. kept thinking literally, “What is going on? I would not treat my worst enemy this way?”
Things just got worse after that and I ended up leaving a few months later.
What brian and others have articulated here makes so much sense to me. I really did commit the unpardonable sin: I really needed and believed and depended on Jesus, without going through the pastors.
Texasguy wrote:
Well, I doubt these pastors work in the secular arena. I think they have become so insular that they don’t recognize that they are insular. They insulate themselves against the evil secular culture to the point where they are unable to be “all things to all men.” Jesus wasn’t afraid of the culture in which He lived. He interacted with drunkards, tax collectors and prostitutes – the rejects of society. He wasn’t worried about getting sullied. That’s Real Love in Action.
Nancy2 wrote:
Nancy2, I doubt women are allowed in that firearms class. Don’t cha know you’re supposed to be barefoot and tied to the kitchen sink?
Darlene wrote:
Whereas former President Carter in his last TED talk noted that worldwide the treatment of women is the #1 human rights issue, in part due to religious belief and the fact that most men don’t really give a d*mn. http://bit.ly/1HsCFNY
The church leadership was connected in the community and to civic leadership. Even friends outside the church were literally afraid to meet with me because of things they had heard about me.
After leaving themselves, one of the former officers told me that I really had no choice but to leave because they treated me so mean. This man attended the meetings and heard what was said about me.
Ya know what? WORTH IT. My brother LIVED!! The whole book of Psalms praises to God!!
~~~~~
Thank you for all the kind and supportive thoughts you are aiming at me right now. I know the posters here have a deep understanding of all that I’ve said and what I haven’t said. I am deeply grateful for your understanding. I had no one to talk to. (The church even sent a letter to my PARENTS which upset them very much. They got it right before my dad’s cancer surgery.)
Talking about stuff like this is really draining, isn’t it? I’m outta here now.
Wishing you all tremendous blessings in your celebrations.
I’m beyond thankful for God’s unsurpassed gift of love in Jesus. Worth celebrating for eternity.
Muff Potter wrote:
He’s never actually gotten anything yet, that I’m aware of, but for meat I think.
LOL….now I’m thinking of Duck Dynasty: “I don’t trust meat from the supermarket. It makes me NERVOUS!!”
okrapod wrote:
I’m beginning to tire of that word ‘biblical.’ The Calvinistas have ruined it.
Darlene wrote:
Well, because Jesus actually loved people. Much of the cr#p (ed.) being sold as "love" at SBTS is little more than gaslighting.
trs wrote:
Amen. And yes, am aiming those kind and supportive thoughts. I had a similar situation with a sibling who lived about an hour away; I called the police in sib’s city and they went to the house.
Thankfully I did not have a “minister of the gospel” in the mix. (Sib is an atheist anyhow.) But the leadership in our former church instilled the attitude you describe — that it is a serious sin to miss church. I remember cutting vacations short and leaving in the wee hours in order to get back into town in time to change into church togs and show up on time.
Anyhow, I think I have a real understanding of that feeling you described. Please accept a virtual hug from a stranger.
(And bless Law Enforcement folks for the difficult job that they do.)
Velour wrote:
Christiane wrote:
I think you suspect correctly. Probably a much higher premium than all the other stuff evangelical navel-gazers seem to be obsessed with.
Velour wrote:
That may be what it was I heard. She might also have one of those honorary degrees . . .
@ trs:
Following your story about your brother is sad and encouraging. God does not need professional pastors. You and the crisis center woman were the pastors to your brother that night. You did what a normal, caring human being would do. Sorry you had to go through that, but thankful you were there for your brother and God was near you both.
refugee wrote:
Bill is correct. During the war the women flooded into the war factories. Check out Rosie the Riveter. Women were in the military, they were trained as pilots, health care opportunities abounded and so on. This happens in wars. This happened during the civil war in this country. Once the men are gone or disabled the women do the work. After the war and the men came home several major changes in this nation happened. One was the GI Bill which, for one thing, opened up educational opportunities for men who would not have had those opportunities otherwise. My daughter, in a class in the history of US education was taught that the G I Bill extensively changed US education. Anyhow, many women married, and began to have babies. When I was in college in the fifties and in biology they were saying that when animal populations decimate due to whatever there follows a surge in the birth rate apparently to bring the population back up to the pre-catastrophy level or better. Hence, the baby boom. Subdivisions were built for the first time. Check out Levittown and its many successors. The face of housing drastically changed. The stereotypical picture was dad at work, mom at home with four kids one dog and a station wagon, often with dad commuting long distances from the subdivision to work. Think patio and barbecue and that entire picture.
But some women did not want to quit the job and let the men have it. This was a real problem, because with the closing of the war factories there were fewer job in the first place, and then to have them occupied by women who did not want to give them up was seen as a significant problem. So, yes, the joys of domesticity were lauded to attract women to relinquish the jobs and take up the work of repopulating the country.
This is only part of the story, of course, but it is what you were talking about.
trs wrote:
Unbelievable. That’s just not normal!
@ Linn:
I totally respect singles who want to be single.
I was commenting as I did because many evangelicals and Baptists who rail against singles for being single frequently assume all of us who are single are because we choose to be.
They then criticize us for choosing to be single – not realizing a lot of us want to be married, but we cannot find someone to marry.
I of course think they should respect the choice to be single, if someone chooses to be.
It’s just maddening to me that so many of these guys assume all of us who are single are that way because we deliberately chose to be so, but for some of us, that is not the case. They feel they have to sell and market marriage to us, to convince us to marry.
Some of them scream at us single ladies that we chose career over marriage, even though that is not true for those of us who wanted marriage. Some of them assume we’re left wing feminists who hate me, and that’s why we didn’t marry.
Muslin fka Deana Holmes/mirele wrote:
Not sure but the only course in Arabic at Southeastern only covers the intro two semesters. They certainly don’t offer a degree in Muslim Studies now. Southern Baptist offers a MA and a MDiv. The both require two semester of Modern Arabic (6 units out of the 62 required for the MA degree and 6 out of the 88 for the MDiv); I saw no sign that Arabic beyond the first year is even offered. I should point out that though Modern Standard Arabic (I assume by Modern Arabic they mean Modern Standard) is the language of the educated throughout the Arabic speaking world; it is different from Classical Arabic in which the Quran is written. And again different from the many varieties of colloquial Arabic (of which Egyptian Arabic is probably the most widely understood by other Arabic speakers if for no other reason that many of the popular Arabic films and tv shows are made in Egypt). I note that Georgetown has a MA in Arabic and Islamic Studies. Applicants are required to be as proficient as Georgetown students who have taken 3 solid years of Arabic. In other words Southern Baptist graduates with an MA in Islamic Studies aren’t even qualified to apply to Georgetown’s MA program in Arabic and Islamic Studies. The Georgetown PhD program requires Arabic, English plus reading proficiency in one other European language relevant to their area of research. Those doing the PhD in Islamic Studies (as opposed to a PhD in Arabic) must take one other Islamic language such as Persian or Turkish or, with permission, Greek, Hebrew, Syriac, or Urdu (again probably depending on their research). Reading proficiency is defined as two full years of college level studying shown by passing a proficiency test.
Daisy wrote:
edit = they assume we are “feminists who hate MEN” not “me.”
Anyway. A lot of the marriage promoters in Christianity have all sorts of false assumptions about ladies like me who never married.
@trs … what a horrifying “pastoral” response. I’m glad your brother survived the night.
Shaking my head that the pastor ordered you to attend church instead of attending to your brother, and that he expected you at all services! Who does that on a normal Sunday much less on a critical day?
Glad you left that place behind.
@ Bridget:
Yes at the University of South Africa or something like that…
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
Absolutely, please post it here!
Darlene wrote:
My ex-senior pastor at Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley, the pathological liar and bully, the orderer of the excommunications and shunnings of countless godly Christian men and women of all ages on false, trumped up charges, actually says from the pulpit that Jesus will give him a horse with his name to ride on and he’ll be doing battle on behalf of Jesus.
My eyes did major eye rolls on that one. I would silently say from my pew, “Pal, Jesus wouldn’t trust you with the manure in the horse’s stable after how badly you treat Christians, let alone with a horse!”
@ trs:
Thank you for sharing your story about how God used you to get your brother help that night when he tried to kill himself. Thank goodness!
Thank you for your transparency and honesty. It was helpful to read.
dee wrote:
More opportunity to rack up even more torts against Marie. Seriously, guys, you need to drop this *yesterday.* She’s no longer a member.
If I were Marie (I’m not), I’d go tomorrow night, sit right in the middle and just triple dog dare them to defame me to my face.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Spot on!
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
He seemed to consider himself an expert on what “grieves the Holy Spirit.” (I suspect it was all the things that bugged him.) I remember reading a particularly ridiculous thing he wrote about “the sin of too much levity”. Can’t get overly happy, apparently, or you will cause grief to God.
JYJames wrote:
Wonder what’s up? Desiring God’s 990 forms show that in 2013, they took in $2,371,563 with a deficit of -$558,974. 2014 (latest year on record) shows they took in $3,362,953, and ended the year with a surplus of $30,972.
This is what Desiring God spent its money on in 2014 (program expenses):
Website: $1,294,329
Events: $1,004,761
Resource
Development: $856,828
Donated
Resources: $168,495
There’s more, including salaries, listed on the 990. You can find it easily enough by searching Desiring God 990.
Commentary: $1.3 million on a website? A cool million on events? 850K on books, study guides and other resources to push the Gospel of John Piper? Really?
refugee wrote:
In the early 60’s there was already derision of the 50’s portrayal of the family. I am not speculating on the purpose of of it, only that it appeared to us as propaganda. None of my neighbors back then were a reflection of what we saw on TV. Most of the mothers of my peers had some type of job outside the home, probably just to get by financially. It was an Oregon coastal town and definitely not affluent. I remember growing up we had a lot of independence and not a lot of supervision in the hours after school and before dinnertime and somehow nobody was worried.
Marie Notcheva wrote:
So glad ******** and ****** aren’t still bitter…
Daisy wrote:
Excellent comment!
@ Jeffrey J . Chalmers:
That is my experience too – the church I grew up in loved to eat. It struck me even as a teenager how someone who ate too much because of their personal issues was given a pass, but not other forms of avoidance.
A bit off topic – I remember buying “Hotel California” just about 40 years ago to the day. Our pre-game ritual was hit Tower Records after school, then Togo’s (only folks from the Bay Area may know that name, and we went to number 2 in Campbell). That night was our Homecoming – at a basketball game since we didn’t have football.
@ A. Amos Love:
Thanks for letting us know!
ishy wrote:
I think you are talking two separate things – if you create intellectual property as part of your job function – it is usually the property of the employer – unless it is specified in a contract – because they are paying you to do it. Something unrelated or not on “company time” at all is another story
Jojo wrote:
Sounds like ‘sin sniffing’. Sovereign Grace Ministries was famous for it.
Jenny wrote:
As Martha of Ireland once put it, “I keep wondering how hard did he hit his head?”
MidwesternEasterner wrote:
Watchman Nee was also the 67th book of the Bible (superseding the other 66) in his day.
When I was involved in that heavy Shepherding/End of the World “Fellowship” (Cult) in the Seventies, he was considered SCRIPTURE right up there with Hal Lindsay. I even remember a hymn about him on Christianese AM radio of the time.
mot wrote:
“TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED! DO MY PROPHET NO HARM!”
— Benny Hinn
refugee wrote:
Remember Deep Throat Driscoll. Wifey has to “offer up her backside” and/or “find his fruit sweet” when He-Man Hubby gets those Urrrges in his Arrreas. Just like in a porn flick. “Woman, Submit!”
siteseer wrote:
Why do I hear a six-year-old in the back seat on a road trip running his finger half a centimeter away from the kid next to him going “I’m NOT Touching You! I’m NOT Touching You!”?
siteseer wrote:
“There’s a sucker born every minute.”
— P.T.Barnum
Deb wrote:
She will be known everywhere as “Dr Mary” if she does.
Mike wrote:
That was my point, as I was answering someone else who said that a church should own any book written by its pastor (whether on their own time or not). Book contracts don’t work that way, so they would have to be separate. But I believe it’s up to the church to make sure their pastor isn’t using work time to write books. Some churches view that as a good thing, though, as it gets them lots of attention. I just don’t think writing books is the real problem there–its dishonesty with how they are making extra time for personal projects. I’ve written 10 books on my own time, some while working full-time. It’s totally possible.
BTW, there’s really no ideas in theology that haven’t been thought or written about before. IP would pertain to the particular way its written, but not to the ideas themselves. You couldn’t trademark or copyright the ideas in theology.
Deb wrote:
It all starts with their twisted view of God. In Calvinism, man’s main problem is guilt, which has to be dealt with through punishment. And God’s main problem is being offended by our sin. New sin brings new guilt, and offends God even more, so there is a heavy emphasis on finding ways to not sin. Sin sniffing become a key activity because of how they view sin.
In historical orthodox Christianity, man’s main problem is death. The real gospel is what the Father, Son, and Spirit did to give us life (ed.) and relationship with him. It takes sin very seriously, but with a different emphasis.
Maybe an analogy is the difference between warning a child he could die if he crosses the street without looking both ways verses telling a child he deserves to did if he crosses the street without looking both ways. The first is a real warning borne out of love, the second is focused on rule-keeping.
I’ve been learning quite a lot through this site – especially the robust comments section. Thanks for staying the course.
refugee wrote:
My wife did some research into this a few years ago, and Bill M has it exactly right. There was a heavy emphasis on grooming women to be docile servants.
Here’s a great example of the grooming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8kJzBJrOkU
Ken F wrote:
Should be life, not live.
Ken F wrote:
And this view of sin causes one to process scripture in a completely different light. And to live a completely different way as a Christian.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
And the President of Oberlin College that promoted universal and integrated college education for women and African Americans. During his time as president the college was actively involved in the Underground Railroad.
The Neo Cals trashed Finney as if he were satans spawn because of his doctrine and revivals.. While I might not agree with his methods or all his doctrinal beliefs (he preached free will, hence the decisionism/ altar calls– a break from his Presbyterian education) he seems the antithesis of, say, James Petigrew Boyce, Founder of SBTS, pro slaver and Confederate Chaplain.
If I have to choose, i will take Finney. At least he thought someone like me worthy of educating.
Ken F wrote:
Amen.
Muff Potter wrote:
I would say He puts high value on truth. Jesus was not exactly warm fuzzie with the religious leaders of His own tribe.
Lydia wrote:
Because of their unkindness? 🙂
In the Jewish tradition, God’s highest attribute is considered to be his ‘Chesed’, a word that literally doesn’t translate into English closer than the phrase His ‘loving-kindness’.
Christiane wrote:
Thank you, my friend. I will right now. BTW, I’ve been trying to refrain from commenting here but just want to clarify: Tim was WRONG about the intent part. He is mixing up law about slander (in which you DO have to prove malicious intent) and harassment (which is considered harassment just once, after the victim has told you to stop). No attorney told him what he wrote, because he was totally wrong.
Tim received not one, but TWO cease and desist letters – one from me, on September 28th when I resigned my membership; and a second one, from my divorce attorney on October 18. He defied both. Now this other woman has come forward.
I’ll leave it there for now. 🙂
Marie Notcheva wrote:
This sounds like a personality disorder. Tim sounds like many young pastors I have come across who have grandiose ideas about themselves and their position.
@ Christiane:
Please don’t twist my words to fit your narrative. Jesus Christ refers to Himself as truth.
Marie Notcheva wrote:
That makes much more sense. Because someone who ‘loves’ you and stalks you because of it only has the greatest intentions in his own mind!
There are an awful lot of verses in the bible about the importance of truth. Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Someone may have already asked this question–but how old is pastor Tim?
Truth wrote:
I want to thank you for your comment. You meant to denigrate Marie and others. But God meant for the world to see just how you church members treat those who have been hurt and given the left boot of fellowship.
You all, of course, have been well trained in gospel™ phrases that you think make sense. However, Jesus doesn’t look at things like you do. You believe that you know how long people should hurt and grieve. If they don’t do it, chop chop, in a time appropriate manner, you are trained to say they are *bitter.*
Maybe you need for them to get over it because deep down inside, you know you have hurt them. I bet no one in your church has ever apologized. You need to apologize for this comment,t BTW.
I don’t suppose your pastors have ever trained you in how to care for those who are wounded. If they had, you would never have written such a ridiculous and callous comment. But then again, I don’t think your pastors get it either.
Bitter is just another tedious, ho-hum, catch phrase used by those who really want to say ‘Get over it already, you idiot, you are bothering us.
Your comment only serves to clinch it for me. You belong to a church that hurts people and pretends that they are serving the gospel™. You are not.
You sound exactly like your pastor who somehow has lost love on the road to exacting theology. I bet he even says that true love is enforcing this theology. He has read far too much of John Piper and far too little of the life of Jesus who reached out to the lost and let down.
Jesus got the pain of the people. In fact, he smacked down the Pharisees who laid impossible burdens on His people. You are not *truth.* You are a Pharisee.
How do I know? Neither you nor your pastor even once asked about how Marie was doing. You didn’t ask how your *bitter* folks were doing as well. You just decided
Then you have the nerve to out their name when you hide like a wuss behind your moniker of Truth which is an oxymoron when it comes to you and your church.
I would suggest your whole church read The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse.
https://www.amazon.com/Subtle-Power-Spiritual-Abuse-Manipulation/dp/0764201379/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1482336194&sr=8-1&keywords=the+subtle+power+of+spiritual+abuse
In fact, if you send me your address, I’ll send you a copy. If ever a person or church needed it, it’s you all.
@ Lea:
“Kindness” was a big appeal in the seeker mega movement. Everyone put on their “kind” mask. I ended up calling it the totalitarian niceness. It covered over many sinister agendas. SGM used what many perceived as kindness which was really love bombing platitudes to suck people into that narrative. No negative truths were allowed –as that would bring shaming. And you might be out of the club of nice people. Definitions of such can be tricky or you don’t know what it means until you dare disagree or a person of kind words had a knife to your back while smiling.
If Jesus Christ IS truth then wouldn’t it follow that all He said and did was truth? I find it instructive He was very hard on religious leaders from His tribe compared to the occupying pagans who infuriated the Jews. IMO, that is who Jesus was talking about in Matthew. I don’t read He was advocating Jews slapping each other around or demanding other Jews carry their cloak, etc.
The truth seems like a good goal to me with actual “practiced” kindness. Not just words.
@ Lydia:
‘God is love’, and Our Lord is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, God
….. much meaning in that word ‘IS’, and because of it, I see no meaningful dichotomies separating ANY of the attributes of God: especially ‘truth’ and ‘chesed’
I own my own words.
Have a wonderful holiday.
Lydia wrote:
Practiced is better than empty platitudes, for sure.
Now, I am definitely of the ‘everyone should have better manners’ school of thinking. There are true things you can say but maybe it isn’t the time to say them? Or necessary. So I can kind of see that side of things. But I also detest lies. There are times to be polite and back out of a conversation, church, relationship and times to shout the truth to the rooftops or just state it plainly. Sometimes that is the only true kindness, such as in cases of abuse. The lies only protect the guilty there.
Velour wrote:
You stated that you work in law, but you are NOT an attorney, right? So please stop practicing law by claiming what a really good attorney would do in this instance.
Ken F wrote:
Fascinating. And sad. “Grooming women to be docile servants” sounds so familiar, come to think of it. I don’t know if it died down in the turmoil of the 60s, but it certainly was alive and well in the 90s and after in the “christian” homeschooling movement I was in, that got hijacked by the patriarchy/vision crowd in the mid-90s, so far as I can figure out.
How much of that was profit motive? (a shiny new and growing market)
How much was power mongering?
How much was earnest and well-intended because some of the leaders actually believed the charlatans among them? (Some state homeschool leaders that we honestly respected told us, when we said we’d been feeling some disturbing tremors in the Force [in a manner of speaking–this was back when Jen’s Gems was raising some questionable issues, years before his abuse of the babysitter came out], that they knew Doug personally from meeting him at leadership events, and he was really a good and decent guy.)
@ refugee:
“Doug” referred to Doug Phillips. Just to clarify.
@ Ken F:
Wow. This is good food for thought. I have been wrestling with what’s wrong with calvinism (which I see on the rise in the church part of my family is currently attending). This thread has yielded much in the way of clarification.
Lea wrote:
Arrgh. And will convince his followers (and perhaps be convinced in his own mind) that it is Christian Persecution when the authorities come after him when all he’s doing is acting Christlike in his single-minded pursuit of the lost sheep.
Yeah, right.
“Persecution” can really stir up the supporters’ emotions, and an emotional supporter is likely to give more than usual, I think, in terms of emotional bolstering and tangible (read $$$) support.
Deb wrote:
Thank you for asking, Deb. (And you, too, Marie.) My review comment was as follows:
P.S. Sorry that it took me a while to post this. It’s been a longish day here.
Ken G wrote:
If so, then Cochrell needs to hire a much, much better one.
Velour wrote:
Good One Velour! Just plain old nitty-gritty horse sense. BRAVA!
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
LOL, yes! My thinking, when reading that portion, was that a competent professional lawyer would have told him to drop it, to cease and desist, for his own good.
Ken G wrote:
I am an attorney and have been a bar member for 22 years, I teach business law and white collar crime and am in agreement with Velour. Wow, you have a distinctly nasty vibe there, Ken G, might want to act a little more like a human being with whom someone might like to have a beer. Probably wouldn’t hurt you there.
Lydia wrote:
Kindness from a sincere heart, yes. I have been love bombed before and the other side of that coin is shunning.
dee wrote:
Amazing comment, Dee.
I learned so much from what you wrote to [mis]Truth.
@Everyone:
Thank you very much.
I just want to say that I take no pleasure in any of this. My flippant tone on some earlier comments may have indicated I think this is fun or a game (i.e. my reference to grip strength). I do not. Extreme stress brings out my naturally-sarcastic sense of humor, and I do want to apologize for that. (I’m not in any way minimizing the importance of grip strength. It’s just not germane to this particular conversation).
I want to clarify also that I never wanted any of this. The elders of HBC are the ones who chose to escalate it.
Here is my situation: I am a single mom, often working 10, 12, even 14 hour days (long commute!) in order to survive, put my daughter through college, and stay off public assistance. Rather than show some support or compassion (as my current church leaders and members have done), or, failing that, just leave me alone, HBC leadership chose to blackmail me, 3 weeks before Christmas, and try to get me to ‘repent’ of some non-existent ‘sin’.
They had been warned (twice) that this would be unwise. I have nothing to hide, but it was never my intention to go public with this. The smear campaign behind my back was also poor judgement, and led to the WW contacting me.
I’d really just settle for a simple apology.
Ken G wrote:
Ken G.,
You claimed he had counsel. I am not practicing law by saying what a really good attorney would do. I am simply telling you how the profession works, since apparently you don’t know. If a really good attorney was consulted and firmly believed that, they would have written that on their own letterhead and signed their name. That’s how it works.
You obviously don’t know anything about the legal field and how it works. Nor anything about legal ethics.
Ken F wrote:
In ancient Judaism too, prior to the influence of Hellenism on rabbinic thought. With one major difference. In pre-Hellenist times Jews believed that body and soul were an integral unity, there was no sharp bifurcation defining separate entities, and that death dissolves the unity when its life force is expended — Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
In other words, they did not believe in an immortal soul. By the way, nor do I.
Velour wrote:
By the way, Ken G., I have looked up your name for the State of MA to see if you are licensed to practice law. There is no one with your name combination who is licensed to practice law in that state.
Law Prof wrote:
I looked up Ken G’s name combination for the State of MA to see if he’s licensed. No one with his name combo shows up for that state as being a licensed attorney.
Obviously he doesn’t know anything about Legal Ethics either. I’ve earned A’s in it, taught by the person who teaches ethics to State Bar members.
Velour wrote:
Of course you’re not engaged in the UPL by giving an opinion of what a hypothetical good attorney would have done. Don’t know why Ken G. put it that way.
The larger point is why he’s having such a tough time with what you’re saying and seems to be defending the actions of (what appears to me to be) a stalker pastor. I don’t get that. The larger point is a pastor who’s really harassing a lady who’s been through a very painful experience in the first place. Whether he can rightfully claim he’s technically within the boundaries of the law or not (and he may well not be), his behavior is such as to invite a lawsuit, which is really bad policy (and I say that as a former corporate attorney), and it is, at bottom, just bad behavior that demonstrates a massive lack of empathy.
What gives, Ken G? Why are you picking away at minutiae? What do you think of the main point people are making?
trs wrote:
I’m not willing to give Pastor a pass here. Pastor’s job is to deal with crises of life and death. Pastor should have said, “Of course you need to be at your brother’s side. I’ll be praying for you and your brother. I’m sure people at church will miss you. If anyone asks me where you are, what would you like me to tell them? Would your brother welcome a pastoral call at the hospital? I can be there after the last service on Sunday, if your brother is up for a visit. Please keep in touch with me about what’s happening.”
Muff Potter wrote:
I’ve heard that the Greeks did not believe in eternity in the same way that we now do in the West, but I have not been able to verify. The Bible seems pretty clear that we will be raised to life again, but the details on what this means are not clear. This passage from Gen 3 is interesting:
It suggests a few things:
1) the possibility of living forever physically
2) living forever in a fallen state could be worse than the curse
3) life inside the garden was somehow different than life outside the garden (the YEC crowd seems to teach that all of the earth was like Eden)
trs wrote:
That’s a great Psalm right there! Thank you for sharing your story–as draining as it was for you.
@ refugee:
I’m wondering if part of it was motivated by trying to find a way to deal with the PTSD that the men brought back with them from WW2. The emphasis in these training videos seems to be doing everything possible to trigger the husband/father. Whatever the motivations, it created a mess.
Law Prof wrote:
Exactly, LawProf.
That “Stalker Pastor” should stop while he’s ahead before he faces arrest and prosecution for his conduct, not just a civil lawsuit.
Friend wrote:
If I understood correctly, she asked the pastor to call and he refused. That is literally the least he could have done! I don’t give him a pass either, unless he was in the middle of something else life or death.
Ken F wrote:
I vaguely remember thinking as a child that if you happened to find the actual garden of eden you would still see an angel guarding it. I don’t know where I got that from, though.
Ken F wrote:
I didn’t see anything like this in the history of ptsd book I read. I’m inclined to think it was more cultural/economic as previously discussed. Certainly not every man had ptsd.
Lea wrote:
That culture did not talk about PTSD. I cannot imagine that the men who saw battle did not have it to some extent or another. Back then they called the more extreme cases “shell-shocked.” That generation stuffed the memories – did not talk much about what they went through. As for the subordination of women after the war, I suspect there were many factors that synergistically combined.
Lea wrote:
Some have suggested that the location is underwater in the Persian Gulf.
Bridget wrote:
Perhaps….like a PhD in Homemaking.
Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:
I’m in that same academic world and am not saying you’ve literally been deemed as such by your president or dean or however they do it at your university, but your vitae sure looks distinguished and certainly is by comparison with mine.
Lea wrote:
I’m thinking you might have gotten it from the biblical text itself, that talks about God sending Adam and Eve out of the Garden, and putting an angel with a flaming sword (that was how I remembered it from childhood, though the text I looked up just now doesn’t say exactly that) at the entrance to turn any people away. (Genesis 3:24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.)
Ken F wrote:
I know this, I was just using the word you used yourself for simplicities sake. I read a book on the history of PTSD in the military and that’s what I was referencing.
Ken F wrote:
Not everyone who goes to battle has PTSD, btw. They may have an adjustment period that goes away, and remember obviously the bad things that happened, but that alone does not lead to a diagnosis.
trs wrote:
I hold it against him. Have you ever considered your pastor was just evil and didn’t care about you?
trs wrote:
Any normal human being. Were I to treat a student like that and tell them “Bleep your brother, you’re taking this exam RIGHT NOW”, that would be grounds for a serious reprimand, maybe firing. The average behavior at an atheist’s convention is surely better than they manner in which you were treated.
trs wrote:
Of course you wouldn’t have. Come on, you know that. You’d have been compassionate, as pastor you might even have strode to the pulpit and announced “Folks, regular program’s cancelled, let’s just pray for TRS’s brother.”
Ken F wrote:
I heard that, too. That four-river configuration in Genesis’ description of Eden is only found among four fossil riverbeds on the floor of the Persian Gulf. Which has not been dry land since the end of the last Ice Age. Which is impressive in another way — an oral tradition that might trace back to the Ice Age.
Lea wrote:
“If you don’t want to call it God, call it Truth.”
— the “Bill” who founded Alcoholics Anonymous, regarding “the higher power”
One comment removed at the request of reader.
Law Prof wrote:
Amen, LawProf.
An excellent comment about how difficult personal problems are handled by professional, caring, decent people!
trs wrote:
“Who is equipped for that kind of emergency.”
Law Prof wrote:
Any normal human being.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
We should not have to go through contortions to excuse "pastors" bad behavior. In this case the pastor was a jerk and demonstrated he should have no place of responsibility. trs is very very forgiving.
FW Rez wrote:
I’m speechless…
Bill M wrote:
Right with you, Bill M, pastors will never get a free pass from me again. They won’t get the benefit of the doubt, they won’t find me contorting my brain to make the evil, vicious, selfish things they do somehow good or just misguided. If a person thinks they have the right and authority from God to teach others about Jesus, we should all, without s SINGLE EXCEPTION UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES hold them to a higher standards and give them less leeway. Why? Because that’s exactly what the Lord does. He said so in James 3, and if anyone disagrees, they can take it up with the Lord, Who inspired it in the Bible.
Lydia wrote:
I don’t see how you can separate the two. Truth and love. They must exist together.
Oooops – Correction…
Church Leaders site
Is allowing comments again.
(Ed. redacted) If you want Tim's contact information, here it is: tim@heritagebiblechapel.org
@ Disgusted:
I am sorry that I had to edit your comment. I agree that HBC is harassing Marie. That has become, unfortunately, a legal matter for them. We cannot advocating doing the same to them for the same reason. I try not to put phone numbers or addresses in comments to avoid any appearance of retaliation. I hope you understand.
Ken F wrote:
And/or they self-medicated with martinis or highballs or Tom Collinses.
They learned growing up during The Great Depression that they were on their own and had to handle it all themselves because there was no one else.
Actually, “shell shock” was the WW1 term; the WW2 term was “combat fatigue”, but it was the same thing. It wasn’t until after Vietnam (when they renamed it PTSD) that they realized it was a spectrum and the WW1/WW2 versions were actually the high end of the spectrum, the REAL obvious cases.
@ trs:
Your story is riveting—horrible and amazing all at once! Oh, how thankful I am that God led you to do the right thing and that you followed His lead instead of the instructions of that despicable “pastor.” What a perfect illustration this is of the importance of not putting our trust in human leaders, “Christian” or otherwise.