It’s Heritage Bible Chapel’s ‘Drop Dead Date’; Marie’s Father Pleads “Stand Your Ground, Marie!”

"When Martin Luther was threatened with heresy for criticizing the pope, the sale of indulgences, and other practices enumerated in his 95 theses of protest…his determination as expressed by his defiant words: HERE I STAND!…GOD HELP ME; I CAN DO NO OTHER!!

Stand your ground, Marie!"

Marie's Father

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=154739&picture=family-quote-wall-art-design-decorFamily Quote Wall Art

It's the Eve before Christmas Eve, and it's also what the pastors at Heritage Bible Chapel (HBC) have set as the drop dead date for Marie Notcheva.

As they spelled out in their correspondence to her which we included in this post, if Marie fails to contact them by TODAY, they will interpret her silence as her continued unwillingness to repent and will proceed to share it with their immediate church membership in the time and and setting that they deem wise and discreet. By the way, what do they mean by 'immediate church membership'?

In an email to Marie on October 14, 2016, HBC elders wrote:

"The covenant that you entered into when you became a member does not permit you to resign during circumstances such as these."

Is that so? 

If you are keeping up with Marie's story, you already know that she sent a certified letter to Heritage Bible Chapel on September 28, 2016, resigning her membership. This after being involved with the church for close to a decade.

Fortunately for Marie, her parents are extremely supportive of her decisions to end her twenty-year marriage to an abusive husband and to resign her membership at Heritage Bible Chapel. And we are so grateful that Marie's father is providing her with wise counsel. Here is an encouraging letter Marie received around Thanksgiving.

https://marienotcheva.wordpress.com/2016/12/19/a-letter-from-my-father/We are looking forward to reporting on the next step the elders at Heritage Bible Chapel choose to take with regard to Marie. 

Please be in prayer for Marie and her family. May they and our wonderful friends here at TWW have a very blessed Christmas!

christmas-spirit

Comments

It’s Heritage Bible Chapel’s ‘Drop Dead Date’; Marie’s Father Pleads “Stand Your Ground, Marie!” — 394 Comments

  1. Nice note Dad!
    Speaking as a father, we cannot be more proud of our children than when they exert their independence and stand up for themselves.
    You go Marie!

  2. This quote of Luther might suffice,
    “A natural donkey, which carries sacks to the mill and eats thistles, can judge you – indeed, all creatures can! For a donkey knows it is a donkey and not a cow. A stone knows it is a stone; water is water, and so on through all the creatures. But you mad asses do not know you are asses.”

    From Against the Roman Papacy, an Institution of the Devil, pg. 360 of Luther’s Works, Vol. 41]

  3. drstevej wrote:

    This quote of Luther might suffice,
    “A natural donkey, which carries sacks to the mill and eats thistles, can judge you – indeed, all creatures can! For a donkey knows it is a donkey and not a cow. A stone knows it is a stone; water is water, and so on through all the creatures. But you mad asses do not know you are asses.”
    From Against the Roman Papacy, an Institution of the Devil, pg. 360 of Luther’s Works, Vol. 41]

    Reminds me of Dunning-Kruger.

  4. When I was a young man, my father advised me “Son, if you ever get on a bus and find that it is going the wrong way, get off at the first stop.” I have relied on that nugget of wisdom several times in my journey to keep me heading in the right direction. Unfortunately, I didn’t pull it from the file soon enough in a few instances … but I’m still on the road and pressing forward to the mark set before me in Christ.

    HBC pushed Biblical discipline out of its bounds … so Marie got off the bus.

  5. Short off-topic announcement. The GoFundMe for Shuana and her son Billy in Texas (Dee wrote about his abuse case at the hands of a church member) is open to help Shauna pay bills in arrears (electricity paid), other necessities for her and Billy, and for her to provide a Christmas for her son Billy (which she can’t afford to do on her own). She also has major car repairs due by New Year’s for her car to be operational.

    Thank you to all who have donated to the fund as well as to all of you who continue to lift this little family up in prayer.

    *********
    “https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk
    Good morning everyone, update!!! I managed to pay bills with the recent gofundme funds. Thank you thank you!!!! I still have a bit more to go including my car getting the check engine and brake lights turned off this cost a bit since I need sensors. I have until the 31st after that I can’t drive because they will not pass my inspection foR my car and I need it to pass in order to register it. I have between now and Sunday to try to do some side jobs to give billy Christmas im on it though. today im on cupcake duty and then onto holiday cakes. Please continue to pray for us. Thank you alk of you for blessing our home and continuing to pray for billy.”

  6. We are looking forward to reporting on the next step the elders at Heritage Bible Chapel choose to take with regard to Marie.

    As someone commented on a previous thread, my take is they set this deadline so they could announce putting the hex on her at their Christmas services.

    "If you weren't being so Unreasonable, I wouldn't need to play hardball like this." — my sociopath brother, when he cheated me out of an inheritance and blew the family apart

  7. Max wrote:

    HBC pushed Biblical discipline out of its bounds … so Marie got off the bus.

    Max, I love the wisdom of your father’s advice to you and the fact that you’ve remembered it years later reflects it’s impact on your life.

    And yes!! Marie recognized the bus was definitely going the wrong way and getting off was the wise thing to do!

    Merry Christmas!

  8. @ Victorious:
    And Merry Christmas to you, Victorious!

    And Merry Christmas to all the other Wartburgers I have come to know this year through the words you write on behalf of those who have been abused by a church which is not the Church. May we continue to stand together in the year ahead … I have a feeling that we ain’t seen nothin’ yet!

  9. LOL careful guys with the “mad asses” comments – my parents are practicing Catholics. Which somehow makes the Luther reference all the more ironic. (My Dad is also a retired history teacher and author),

    Idk what’s going on at HBC. Honestly couldn’t care less. Just enjoyed a wonderful worship service and fellowship time with my church family. Merry Christmas all!!! ❤

  10. From Original Post: “The covenant that you entered into when you became a member does not permit you to resign during circumstances such as these.”

    During what circumstances? The circumstances of the leadership piling on abuse on top of and already abused woman? Those circumstances? That is some kind of sick covenant.

    So in biblical terms they are saying, “Lie down that we may walk over you.”
    (Isaiah 51:23)

  11. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    Idk what’s going on at HBC. Honestly couldn’t care less. Just enjoyed a wonderful worship service and fellowship time with my church family. Merry Christmas all!!!

    I am thrilled to know that you have family, a new church family, and friends that have your back! May you draw strength from them. Merry Christmas!

  12. Mara wrote:

    From Original Post: “The covenant that you entered into when you became a member does not permit you to resign during circumstances such as these.”

    During what circumstances?

    Not very specific was it?

  13. Lea wrote:

    Mara wrote:
    From Original Post: “The covenant that you entered into when you became a member does not permit you to resign during circumstances such as these.”
    During what circumstances?
    Not very specific was it?

    This is the whole Mark Dever/9 Marxist/heavy-Shepherding Movement from the 1970’s authoritarian control over members’ lives.

    My ex-church, Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley’s abusive pastors/elders places anyone under “discipline” for any trumped up reason ending with the manipulative accusation before the entire church membership “we worked with [name of church member] for years to no avail”.

    Signed,

    Velour, falsely accused, excommunicated and shunned by the pastors/elders at GBFSV (just like they did to the godly doctor in his 70’s before me, and the godly middle-aged woman who worked in finance before the good doctor)

  14. Everyone’s case is different but I really think that “excommunication” is the best ending this story could hope for.

    It doesn’t make it easy but we only have so much life span, where do you want to spend it?

    This church isn’t going to change.

  15. Max wrote:

    @ Victorious:
    I have a feeling that we ain’t seen nothin’ yet!

    Max, I think we can COUNT on it! The Deebs have been exposing scandals in the church for 7 years now. I think there will be more control-freak pastors and odd-ball churches to keep the Deebs busy in 2017. Actually till the eschaton more than likely. 🙁

    Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, Max!

  16. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    Idk what’s going on at HBC. Honestly couldn’t care less. Just enjoyed a wonderful worship service and fellowship time with my church family. Merry Christmas all!!!

    That’s the right attitude, Marie. The pastors at HBC are legends in their own minds. I am encouraged by your strength and resolve to move on and continue faithful to our Lord. Merry Christmas to you and your family, Marie!

  17. Mara

    From Original Post: “The covenant that you entered into when you became a member does not permit you to resign during circumstances such as these.”

    And this is how parents talk to young children. It’s quite common in Neo-Calvinist churches to infantilize women. It reminds me of when mom or dad says: You get back here and clean your room. You’re not going anywhere until that room is cleaned. You do as I say!”

  18. Darlene wrote:

    And this is how parents talk to young children. It’s quite common in Neo-Calvinist churches to infantilize women

    Spot on, Mara.

  19. …will proceed to share it with their immediate church membership in the time and and setting that they deem wise and discreet…

    By now, I have a feeling that the “immediate church membership” knows all about dear Marie’s great rebellion.

    TWW has stolen the thunder on such an announcement.

    Besides, PT wouldn’t know “wise and discreet” if it rose up and kissed him on the lips.

  20. Remnant wrote:

    Besides, PT wouldn’t know “wise and discreet” if it rose up and kissed him on the lips.

    Rising up and kissing PT on the lips would be neither wise nor discreet!

  21. Word to HBC elders, (in deference to Marie’s parents), I offer this quote from Hans Kung, noted Roman Catholic scholar, taken from his book “On Being A Christian.”

    “Through all that he taught and practiced, Jesus put in the wrong all those who – though devout – were less magnanimous, compassionate and good than he. It must then have been a great scandal to these less magnanimous, devout people when Jesus did not merely announce grace, mercy and forgiveness in a general way, but invoked this God whose love is given to sinners, who prefers sinners to the righteous, and boldly anticipated God’s right to dispose of grace. He took it on himself – even the most critical exegetes admit this as a historical fact – to assure the individual sinner directly of forgiveness.”

  22. The speaker at the HBC women’s conference in May will be Janet Surette. Here is a link to Janet’s church: http://southshorebible.org/about-us/what-we-believe/. This church has something for everyone to love: reformed baptist, complementarian (Danvers Statement on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood is in the church constitution), “Biblical” counseling, young earth creationism (YEC is in their constitution), membership covenants, church discipline.
    From their constitution: “All who come into membership are expected to recognize and submit to the authority of the overseers of the church (1 Corinthians16:15,16; 1 Thessalonians5:12, 13; Hebrews13:17). This responsibility will include willingly scheduling oversight meetings with Elders.”

  23. "Stand Your Ground" should be our new motto for the upcoming year. If anyone comes against you for some wrong reason, stand your ground. Stand up for what you believe in, not for what the other person(s) think you should be doing. Remember the old song, we often sang in churches and Bible school when we were young – "Stand up, stand up for Jesus, ye soldier of the cross. Lift high his royal banner, ….

    To Marie and others out there and to my family and friends, we are standing our ground for what we believe in. I believe in Jesus. That says it all.

  24. @ Darlene:

    I notice that they do not quote verses to support their statement. These types typically through verses out of context to support their postion/edict…
    i wonder why….

  25. Ken F wrote:

    This responsibility will include willingly scheduling oversight meetings with Elders.”

    They’re going to force you to be willing? Probably winsome too.

  26. Post-lunch comment 1 of 2

    Ken F wrote:

    From their constitution: “All who come into membership are expected to recognize and submit to the authority of the overseers of the church (1 Corinthians16:15,16; 1 Thessalonians5:12, 13; Hebrews13:17). This responsibility will include willingly scheduling oversight meetings with Elders.”

    Which would be fine, provided the elders of the HBC sub-set of the local church led by example, and recognised and submitted to the authority of the overseers among the rest of the church in the town. This, of course, is what is meant by “church” in the contexts they quote.

    Bet they don’t, though.

  27. Post-lunch comment 2 of 2

    Marie Notcheva wrote:

    Idk what’s going on at HBC. Honestly couldn’t care less. Just enjoyed a wonderful worship service and fellowship time with my church family. Merry Christmas all!!! 💓

    Like you, Marie, I care passionately * about what they’re going to do at HBC. When we were excommunicated from Covenant Life Glasgow, although the CEO did everything he could to turn our friends (whom we miss) against us, he had no power to do anything else. Quite the reverse – we were practically engulfed in an avalanche of God’s goodness in every other respect when we left.

    A merry Christmas to you too!

    * Er – not really.

  28. Ken F wrote:

    This responsibility will include willingly scheduling oversight meetings with Elders.”

    Do the make you hold the cans?

  29. Post-lunch comment 3 of 2

    ION: Climbing

    Lesley and I had our Christmas Eve session at the climbing wall this morning, and very good it was too. I managed to flash two new 6b+’s, and Lesley, a 6a.

    The tricky 6c on Route 2, I have decided, is just a step beyond my capabilities this early in our latest series of climbing adventures. My left hand just doesn’t have the strength to hold the crucial move. This is an important and rather freeing decision; it means I can concentrate on other challenges while I build up fitness. I’m sure there’s a lesson for us all there.

    IHTIH

  30. This is sure to send the 9Marxists into a tizzy!

    “Jesus never required membership of a Church as a condition of entry into God’s kingdom. The obedient acceptance of his message and the immediate and radical submission to God’s will sufficed.”

    -Hans Kung, “On Being A Christian” page 285

  31. Post-lunch comment 4 of 2

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    A merry Christmas to you too!
    * Er – not really.

    Marie – I’ve just realised this footnote doesn’t quite look the way I intended – of course I meant the merry Christmas bit. 😉

  32. Darlene wrote:

    It’s quite common in Neo-Calvinist churches to infantilize women.

    As you know, it is that and a whole lot more.
    I would say they even go so far as to objectify women lower than children to the level of animal and property.
    One would hope that a parent would be concerned for the emotional state and well-being of the child, even when the emotional state is wrong.

    The Neo-Cals have no such concern. They are concerned that the woman is not having the submissive thoughts and joyful emotions approved by them. Her God-given and God-approved drive to flee persecution is labeled sin. Her actions to stop another from continuing to unrepentantly sin against her is held up as rebellion.

    You bet they infantilize. But then they objectify her, call good evil and evil good and demand that she agree with their perverted version of the story.

  33. Nick I love your comments!!! It must be the dry British sense of humor. My pastor and I were talking last night, and he helped me realize why I shouldn’t and don’t care *passionately* about what they do/think. Even though I’m clearly and demonstrably in the right, nothing and no one is going to change their minds. They’re completely indoctrinated, and even while breaking the law and defying Scripture, will not only continue to justify themselves, but will view themselves as ‘persecuted for righteousness’.

    I see it as arguing with someone who continues to insist the earth is flat, even while confronted with proof that it is in fact round. The “abuse is not biblical grounds for divorce/woman bad for standing up/sinner sinner chicken dinner” camp will ALWAYS believe their own hype.

    So that leaves me with two choices: frustrate myself that they won’t listen to the reason of many OR look at the facts; or go on living my life, rejoicing in Christ and the godly friendships He has provided. I choose the latter.

    BTW Deebs, my pastor said you’re doing a beautiful job in exposing all this. God bless! Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Post-lunch comment 3 of 2

    ION: Climbing

    Lesley and I had our Christmas Eve session at the climbing wall this morning, and very good it was too. I managed to flash two new 6b+’s, and Lesley, a 6a.

    The tricky 6c on Route 2, I have decided, is just a step beyond my capabilities this early in our latest series of climbing adventures. My left hand just doesn’t have the strength to hold the crucial move. This is an important and rather freeing decision; it means I can concentrate on other challenges while I build up fitness. I’m sure there’s a lesson for us all there.

    IHTIH

  34. I do not see what these churches gain by this behavior. When I divorced some church folks got their feathers ruffled, some did not, somebody I knew came and told me what was going on, and I quietly just took my kids and left. That was the end of it-and that was a conservative Baptist denomination. Something has seriously gone wrong with church in the past few decades. Okay, something has seriously gone wrong with church in the past few centuries. Okay, okay something had already started going wrong during NT times. Maybe we expect too much to expect decency from the church?

  35. Velour wrote:

    Darlene wrote:
    And this is how parents talk to young children. It’s quite common in Neo-Calvinist churches to infantilize women
    Spot on, Mara.

    And Darlene.

  36. “By the way, what do they mean by ‘immediate church membership’?”

    My guess is the church membership that still attends as opposed to those who have long since left but are still considered members because they can never leave.

  37. Mara wrote:

    The Neo-Cals have no such concern. They are concerned that the woman is not having the submissive thoughts and joyful emotions approved by them. Her God-given and God-approved drive to flee persecution is labeled sin. Her actions to stop another from continuing to unrepentantly sin against her is held up as rebellion.

    What I don’t understand is why there are so many women in these churches who are pushing for this as well. It’s not just the men doing it. In the case of Janet Surette, the upcoming speaker at the HBC women’s conference, she is pushing this just as hard as he men. Here is quote from her site (http://janetsurette.com/about/): “Though my ministry takes me beyond my local church and is a separate entity from it, I cherish and joyfully submit to the authority, doctrine and protection I am afforded at Southshore Bible Church. To learn more about it and read up on the doctrine that I hold to in my life and teaching, I invite you to visit…”

    As Jack wrote above, her church’s constitution and web-site make it sound “as much fun as a fall down a flight of stairs.”

  38. Velour wrote:

    From Original Post: “The covenant that you entered into when you became a member does not permit you to resign during circumstances such as these.”

    Church membership covenants are like non-compete employee contracts. They are designed to intimidate a member/employee from resigning and moving on to another place … but neither would hold up as binding documents under legal scrutiny. Just as an employee has a right to use the knowledge he has learned to make a living for himself, a church member is free to stay or leave a place s/he no longer desires to be a part of as the Spirit leads. Of course, New Calvinists do not understand this truth and choose to control, manipulate and intimidate the spiritual life out of folks. If you are reading this and have become ensnared by such “pastors”, please know that you have freedom in Christ … exercise it!

  39. Marie’s Dad is not only wise, but he writes very well.

    When otherwise good people start believing things that are not true and loving, it can take them in some very unloving and callous directions.

    History is filled with such accounts.

    This church is just the latest example.

    All Marie needs to keep doing is walking forward. Build a new future. New relationships. As she does so, her ex and this church will fade in the rear view mirror.

    I wish her the best.

  40. Shannon H. wrote:

    “By the way, what do they mean by ‘immediate church membership’?”

    My guess is the church membership that still attends as opposed to those who have long since left but are still considered members because they can never leave.

    Lol. It’s getting pretty bad if your list of people you won’t actually let go is long enough to make it a separate thing!

  41. okrapod wrote:

    Maybe we expect too much to expect decency from the church?

    My brother told me I expect too much but I will always expect decency and kindness and truth, even if it means I am often disappointed.

  42. Ken F wrote:

    What I don’t understand is why there are so many women in these churches who are pushing for this as well. It’s not just the men doing it. In the case of Janet Surette, the upcoming speaker at the HBC women’s conference, she is pushing this just as hard as he men. Here is quote from her site (http://janetsurette.com/about/): “Though my ministry takes me beyond my local church and is a separate entity from it, I cherish and joyfully submit to the authority, doctrine and protection I am afforded at Southshore Bible Church.

    By mouthing the words she gets status and she never has to deal with being browbeaten like others in church. The same as Mary kassian who gets to be higher status than other women by mouthing comp while her husband cooks for her and she travels around. None of these women are doing what they try to force on others. They’re all trying to be at the top of the heap so they don’t have to.

  43. @ Shannon H.:
    HBC will invite 100’s of members of their church to a special meeting to tell them about Marie’s sins and how much they love her, while telling the people to treat her as an unbeliever and that they should reach out to her. How’s that for “keeping the circle small”.

    Marie will not be allowed to be there to defend herself. Jesus would never have done this!!! He would have condemned these Pharisees, which is exactly what Tim and these Elders at HBC are.

    There are wonderful people at HBC who are being deceived by their leadership, some know and choose to cover it up and some have no idea. I can tell you from personal experience that Tim shows no empathy for others and should not be a pastor! HBC should fire him and the elders that support him to save their church.

    This is not what HBC was founded on when it first started. It was never a pastor ruled church but it has absolutely become one!

  44. Ken F wrote:

    What I don’t understand is why there are so many women in these churches who are pushing for this as well.

    Well, I like the way HUG puts it but I can’t remember exactly how he says it.

    It has something to do with certain, token females being in certain, privileged places elevated above the not so privileged females. The height that she looks down from has a certain appeal.
    And as long as she sings the songs of her ‘authorities’ and dances to that winsome tune winsomely, she gets all the pretty, shiny material things that her heart craves.
    Along with the above mentioned perks, she get a false sense of security that she is submissive and pleasing to God through her joyful submission to men.

  45. Loren Haas wrote:

    Nice note Dad!
    Speaking as a father, we cannot be more proud of our children than when they exert their independence and stand up for themselves.
    You go Marie!

    Oh how true! If there is one pesky barrier to that it is group think. So hard to pull to pull away from it. Marie is blessed with such parents. Many victims of spiritual abuse have families who stand with the church/pastors. It is devastating.

  46. Lea wrote:

    Mara wrote:
    From Original Post: “The covenant that you entered into when you became a member does not permit you to resign during circumstances such as these.”
    During what circumstances?
    Not very specific was it?

    No. Not specific. I’m sure the “circumstances” aren’t specific in the membership agreement either. The “circumstances” are quite likely whatever leadership deams them to be. Apparently, not submitting to leadership’s demands of not divorcing your abusive husband àfter 20 years of abuse is one of those circumstances. Who knew?!

  47. okrapod wrote:

    Maybe we expect too much to expect decency from the church?

    But shouldn’t we? Isn’t that what it is all about? Maturing, gaining wisdom, doing right, calling out serious wrong, standing with those who have been wronged? seeking truth? We cannot control people but we can certainly refuse to support and endorse such behavior and deception. It does come with a cost, though.

  48. Mara wrote:

    @ Lea:
    We were typing at the same time but you hit “post comment” first.
    Good response btw.

    What you both wrote makes sense. It’s such a shame that this type of behavior seems to go unchecked for so long. As a site note, I searched for “Surette” on TGC, 9Marks, Desiring God, CBMW, and Acts29. Her names does not yield results for any of those sites.

  49. Ken F wrote:

    What I don’t understand is why there are so many women in these churches who are pushing for this as well. It’s not just the men doing it. In the case of Janet Surette, the upcoming speaker at the HBC women’s conference, she is pushing this just as hard as he men. Here is quote from her site

    Because those women, including Janet, are special. They have been indoctrinated to the point that they are called upon by the church to indoctrinate other women. They are allowed to go to other churches, write books and Bible studies, and earn money by indoctrinating other women. They have met the level of obedience required and can be trusted to go forth and spread abhorrent doctrines to all women.

  50. Bridget wrote:

    They have met the level of obedience required and can be trusted to go forth and spread abhorrent doctrines to all women.

    And being married to one of the elders probably helps too.

  51. Ken F wrote:

    I cherish and joyfully submit to the authority, doctrine and protection I am afforded at

    I know you are talking about the women who play it for all it is worth and get elevated above the other women and who can pretend that they are respected by the guys while they rake in the dough. I got that.

    There is also this attitude of cherish and submit to authority and doctrine and protection which can be widespread and traditional in Christianity. This is a very Catholic idea. I don’t know who all else ascribes to it, but the Catholic person is required to officially believe everything the Church teaches, or so they told us and so they would have required of us in a formal statement required for conversion. The Catholic conscience is expected to be conformed to the teachings of the Catholic church, as much as possible, or again so they told us. And it is not just the Catholics. At the conservative Baptist church affiliated high school were one of my grandkids may be next year, the church policy is that the official interpretation of what the bible says is whatever the pastor says it is. And this is a huge church, larger than SBC mega here, and running a highly academically competitive school hoping to challenge the best in the area academically.

    This idea-submit to authority and doctrine-is neither new nor insular. And some folks love it. They just love it to death from what I can tell. It sells. It sells a lot better than any come let us reason together.

  52. okrapod wrote:

    The Catholic conscience is expected to be conformed to the teachings of the Catholic church, as much as possible, or again so they told us.

    I would say that the Church asks Catholics to ‘consider’ what it teaches as a part of making a conscientious moral decision, so it is important for a Catholic to know WHAT the Church’s position is on a certain issue, and to recognize that the Church is offering guidance ….. but in the end, there are other factors: a reasonable consideration of the person’s own reality, the person’s deep prayers to the Holy Spirit for guidance, and also bringing it all together in the privacy of one’s conscience where no one else should intrude because it is there that a person meets with God …. if this ‘ideal’ pattern is followed, then the chances of a making a responsible moral decision are far, far better than blindly ‘obeying authority’, ignoring reality and denying the gift of reason that comes from God, failure to pray that the Holy Spirit comes alongside with His wisdom and guidance, and NOT listening to that ‘still, small Voice that is present in one’s conscience.

    One way to know if you are on the right track: your moral decision will bring a sense of peace….. that you have done what you could to ask for help and yet you have been able to take personal responsibility for the choice you are making. It’s not easy. It was never meant to be ‘easy’ …. but that is the price of God’s gift to us of ‘choice’, that we ‘take part’ in the way of our RESPONDING to His command to ‘choose life that you may live’.

  53. Ken F wrote:

    And being married to one of the elders probably helps too.

    It most certainly helps.
    It probably helps more than even talent or obedience.

  54. okrapod wrote:

    At the conservative Baptist church affiliated high school were one of my grandkids may be next year, the church policy is that the official interpretation of what the bible says is whatever the pastor says it is. And this is a huge church, larger than SBC mega here, and running a highly academically competitive school hoping to challenge the best in the area academically.

    Yep. They threw out what many SBs had once promoted: soul competency, the priesthood of believer and no king or Creed but Jesus and replaced it with the inerrancy of the pastors interpretation. The pastors eventually became mini Pope's. From there, Mohler became the organizational Pope.

  55. Darlene wrote:

    And this is how parents talk to young children. It’s quite common in Neo-Calvinist churches to infantilize women.

    Infantalization With Benefits (nudge nudge wink wink know what I mean known what I mean…)
    No wonder we’re getting so many Pastor Pedo/Pastor’s Pet Pedo scandals.

  56. Lea wrote:

    Ken F wrote:

    This responsibility will include willingly scheduling oversight meetings with Elders.”

    They’re going to force you to be willing? Probably winsome too.

    HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY!
    All Dance Joyfully With Great Enthusiasm before Comrade Dear Leader!
    HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY!

  57. Dale wrote:

    Ken F wrote:

    This responsibility will include willingly scheduling oversight meetings with Elders.”

    Do they make you hold the cans?

    Got the reference.
    Hail Xenu!

  58. Lydia wrote:

    okrapod wrote:

    Maybe we expect too much to expect decency from the church?

    But shouldn’t we? Isn’t that what it is all about? Maturing, gaining wisdom, doing right, calling out serious wrong, standing with those who have been wronged? seeking truth? We cannot control people but we can certainly refuse to support and endorse such behavior and deception. It does come with a cost, though.

    the ‘ekklesia’, the people, ARE the Church, with Christ at the head, and the work of the people IS the work of the Church …. there is a participation aspect of ‘Church’ where ‘all are important because all are needed’ ….. and when that truth is thrown out, then you end up with tyrants and misery and darkness.

  59. Mara wrote:

    It has something to do with certain, token females being in certain, privileged places elevated above the not so privileged females. The height that she looks down from has a certain appeal.
    And as long as she sings the songs of her ‘authorities’ and dances to that winsome tune winsomely, she gets all the pretty, shiny material things that her heart craves

    How does that differ from a Queen Bee crossed with a Kept Mistress?

  60. Bridget wrote:

    Lea wrote:

    Mara wrote:
    From Original Post: “The covenant that you entered into when you became a member does not permit you to resign during circumstances such as these.”
    During what circumstances?
    Not very specific was it?

    No. Not specific. I’m sure the “circumstances” aren’t specific in the membership agreement either. The “circumstances” are quite likely whatever leadership deams them to be.

    Like “Hooliganism” in the Russian penal code.

  61. @ Bridget:
    Many years ago, Mrs Criswell taught a very large (300, I think) mixed SS class that was even on the radio.

    Years later, As comp doctrine became the defacto Gospel, this was pointed out to many pastors on blogs. Their response was everything she taught was under the authority of her pastor husband. Which was kind of funny since he was not in the room and did not prepare her lessons.

    The excuse they use is that the wife is under their spiritual direction as if they have led her to be of same mind as them. It is very cultish thinking. I would think such manly men would be embarrassed to have married such dependent and feeble minded women. Afraid of being challenged?

  62. Bridget wrote:

    Ken F wrote:

    What I don’t understand is why there are so many women in these churches who are pushing for this as well. It’s not just the men doing it. In the case of Janet Surette, the upcoming speaker at the HBC women’s conference, she is pushing this just as hard as he men. Here is quote from her site

    Because those women, including Janet, are special. They have been indoctrinated to the point that they are called upon by the church to indoctrinate other women. They are allowed to go to other churches, write books and Bible studies, and earn money by indoctrinating other women. They have met the level of obedience required and can be trusted to go forth and spread abhorrent doctrines to all women.

    Two words: JUDAS GOAT.

  63. Ken F wrote:

    Bridget wrote:

    They have met the level of obedience required and can be trusted to go forth and spread abhorrent doctrines to all women.

    And being married to one of the elders probably helps too.

    Rank Hath Its Privileges.

    And for all we know, might actually be pulling the strings indirectly by manipulating Manly Elder Hubby. Like an Ottoman harem favorite with her Sultan. Or an Elena Ceausescu. Or an Imelda Marcos.

    Which could make things interesting behind the scenes of the Elder’s Board.
    A beehive can have only one Queen Bee.

  64. Ken F wrote:

    And being married to one of the elders probably helps too.

    I imagine so. But I have seen other women attain this place as well.

  65. Former member of HBC wrote:

    There are wonderful people at HBC who are being deceived by their leadership, some know and choose to cover it up and some have no idea.

    I understand where you are coming from but if they hear anything about Marie from leadership or other members, they need to do all they can to contact Marie to hear her side. This is the part I will never understand about these situations.

  66. Lydia wrote:

    They threw out what many SBs had once promoted:

    In other words, they adopted their own brand of fundamentalism, all under the guise of being evangelical. And now there is a huge battle for the mind, under the guise of some battle for the bible.

    As a long time participator in this particular type of battle for the mind I am thinking that some of those coming out of more antiquated types of fundamentalism have wised up to the competition and may well come out winning a large chunk of the pie. Examples more or less around here: Liberty U, which came out of Baptist fundamentalism, has a huge chunk of that pie and a lot of influence with a lot of people, while Wake Forest U, which came out of non-fundamentalist SBC back when, has shifted to the increasingly wealthy set whose minds are mostly not on the Baptist issues at all, never mind that they have a multi-purpose divinity school. Like Baylor. The radicals are winning this, hands down it seems to me. And it seems to me that the radicals have a better understanding of how to get that done, for better or worse.

  67. Jack wrote:

    Wow, this place sounds as much fun as a fall down a flight of stairs.

    From a standing position, or tied to a chair? 😉

  68. @ Max:

    Max – anyone…

    Yes…
    “…a church member is free to stay or leave a place
    s/he no longer desires to be a part of as the Spirit leads.

    Of course, **New Calvinists **do not understand this truth

    and choose to control, manipulate and intimidate
    the spiritual life out of folks.”
    ———-

    Have a Very Merry Christmas ALL…

    Go to Google and type in

    **W h y a r e c a l v i n i s t s

    And enjoy what the auto pilot supplies… 😉

  69. @ okrapod:
    I agree. And I think this speaks to the women issue, too. It seems our culture is determined individuals align with a tribe or group. If we don’t, they take any opinion one has on any one issue and assigns them to a tribe.

    People tend to go along as there are certain protections and benefits to being aligned to a tribe. And our culture conditions people in this respect. It can be lonely if you are surrounded by people with the agenda of their tribe. You might agree with some of it but certainly not all of it. But That is not acceptable.

    I think this is what happened to many otherwise smart women who aligned with comp doctrine. (My only personal church experience is with soft comp not really patriarchy. Soft comp is much harder to spot the problems that inevitably come)

  70. Humor – At the expense of Calvinists… 🙂
    Calvinists – Who could lighten up – And get a sense of Humor.

    1 – How do you confuse a Calvinist?
    Take him to a buffet and let him choose to get whatever he wants.

    2 – Why do Calvinists do so poorly on College tests?
    They can’t handle multiple choice questions.

    3 – How many Calvinists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
    It depends on how many are needed to get all the unbelievers out of the room,
    for only the Elect are given the Light.

    4 – What do you call a Presbyterian drinking Mountain Dew?
    A Hyper-Calvinist

    5 – Did you hear about the Calvinist who rode in an elevator all day?
    He felt he had no right to choose a floor so he just went wherever it took him

    6 – Why do presidential campaigns make Calvinists so nervous?
    They like the idea of an election but just can’t get past the voting part.

    7 – Did you hear about the Calvinist scoreboard manufacturer?
    Their scoreboard posts the final score at the beginning of the game

    8 – Why do Calvinists prefer subways and trains?
    Because the destinations are all pre-determined.

    9 – Why should you choose a Calvinist Realtor?
    Because they do not believe in a “Great Commission”.

    10 – Calvinists? “If” you have JOY knowing for certain you are the elect?
    And, now you have the Joy of The Lord in your heart?
    Could you tell your heart to notify your face? 😉

  71. Shannon H. wrote:

    “By the way, what do they mean by ‘immediate church membership’?”

    My guess is the church membership that still attends as opposed to those who have long since left but are still considered members because they can never leave.

    Cue the Eagles – Hotel California…

  72. okrapod wrote:

    And now there is a huge battle for the mind, under the guise of some battle for the bible.

    Yes. I think all tyrants and manipulators battle for people’s minds in all areas of life as in, “we know best for your life choices”. No thanks.

    That is why I think it important the tyrants and manipulators in your life don’t always know what you are thinking! Hee hee.

    At our house we call it the ‘cold grey rock’ strategy.

    The key is truth. And truth never seeks to control others. Encourage, yes. Influence, yes. But never control.

  73. @ Lydia:
    Lydia wrote:

    @ Christiane:
    And secretive heirarchies who live in palaces.

    Indeed. Until along comes a reformer who won’t live in the Palace and instead brings some light on why it is necessary to live simply for the sake of focusing on his pastoral work for the Church:
    “Bergoglio has found “a place that allows him to realize different objectives: to to give priority to the pastoral aspect of the mission of the Pope; to provide a practical example of how in his opinion homilies should be delivered (in Evangelii Gaudium he recommends that they be short and not seem like conferences or lectures); to remain firmly attached to the message of the Gospel; to reiterate that papal authority should be exercised in a lowly manner, without triumphalism; to express himself freely, avoiding curial quicksand; to keep himself from the risk of being contaminated by clericalism).”

  74. Darlene wrote:

    Max wrote:

    @ Victorious:
    I have a feeling that we ain’t seen nothin’ yet!

    Max, I think we can COUNT on it! The Deebs have been exposing scandals in the church for 7 years now.

    I hear tell that some are calling us “EVIL”. 😉

    For those who label us as such, it would be great if they would back up their opinion with concrete examples of what we have written that could be construed as ‘evil’.

  75. @ Ken F:
    Thank you for this. I planned to write about this church next week and show people how to avoid getting mixed up with authoritarian nuts.

  76. Deb wrote:

    It would be great if they would back up their opinion with concrete examples of what we have written that could be construed as ‘evil’.

    It's because we broke the code: Don't talk about anything bad.

  77. Ken F wrote:

    The speaker at the HBC women’s conference in May will be Janet Surette. Here is a link to Janet’s church: http://southshorebible.org/about-us/what-we-believe/. This church has something for everyone to love: reformed baptist, complementarian (Danvers Statement on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood is in the church constitution), “Biblical” counseling, young earth creationism (YEC is in their constitution), membership covenants, church discipline.
    From their constitution: “All who come into membership are expected to recognize and submit to the authority of the overseers of the church (1 Corinthians16:15,16; 1 Thessalonians5:12, 13; Hebrews13:17). This responsibility will include willingly scheduling oversight meetings with Elders.”

    Great research Ken! Perhaps we’ll cover this in the New Year.

  78. Deb wrote:

    I hear tell that some are calling us “EVIL”.

    It’s obvious that they define “evil” differently than the rest of us.

  79. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    BTW Deebs, my pastor said you’re doing a beautiful job in exposing all this.

    Please thank your pastor for his encouragement. We care deeply about you, Marie, and we know that you represent countless sisters in Christ trapped in churches like your FORMER CHURCH.

  80. December 23 has come and gone. If HBC worked their dastardly deed, it must have been in a dark smoke-filled room with only the small inner circle.

  81. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Bridget wrote:

    Ken F wrote:

    What I don’t understand is why there are so many women in these churches who are pushing for this as well. It’s not just the men doing it. In the case of Janet Surette, the upcoming speaker at the HBC women’s conference, she is pushing this just as hard as he men. Here is quote from her site

    Because those women, including Janet, are special. They have been indoctrinated to the point that they are called upon by the church to indoctrinate other women. They are allowed to go to other churches, write books and Bible studies, and earn money by indoctrinating other women. They have met the level of obedience required and can be trusted to go forth and spread abhorrent doctrines to all women.

    Two words: JUDAS GOAT.

    I don’t think this is a fair label to apply to these women. The sad truth is because all of this doctrine is dressed up in scriptural clothing it is embraced as the words of God himself. It has been my experience that many misguided people believe whole heartedly they are doing God’s work and fail to recognize they are in reality offending him by their words and actions. Wasn’t this also the very thing Jesus confronted and warned against. Pharasaism is deep in the heart of men and women and we have to be ruthless in weeding it out.

  82. Former member of HBC wrote:

    @ Shannon H.:
    HBC will invite 100’s of members of their church to a special meeting to tell them about Marie’s sins and how much they love her, while telling the people to treat her as an unbeliever and that they should reach out to her. How’s that for “keeping the circle small”.

    Marie will not be allowed to be there to defend herself. Jesus would never have done this!!! He would have condemned these Pharisees, which is exactly what Tim and these Elders at HBC are.

    There are wonderful people at HBC who are being deceived by their leadership, some know and choose to cover it up and some have no idea. I can tell you from personal experience that Tim shows no empathy for others and should not be a pastor! HBC should fire him and the elders that support him to save their church.

    This is not what HBC was founded on when it first started. It was never a pastor ruled church but it has absolutely become one!

    Dee and I find nothing surprising about your commentary on your former church. Glad you got out!

  83. @ Christiane:
    He could fire the army of PR people. :o) He has the power to turn the theocracy into all members voting. you have no way of knowing what is a photo op and what isn’t. The goal has been to save the institution. Much like Bob Jones and such. But I get you are a true believer in someone you don’t really know.

  84. one of the little people wrote:

    Pharasaism is deep in the heart of men and women and we have to be ruthless in weeding it out.

    Yes it can be, in the heart of the woman who spread the doctrine as well. That is why they need to think for themselves and stop the sickness.

  85. @ Christiane:

    He seems like a genuine person. I don’t necessarily agree with everything he is doing but I certainly do not doubt that he has a good heart and is very brave. Should we place bets that Burke gets assigned to a chaplaincy of a monastery in Outer Mongolia?

  86. Just once, I’d like to hear a story of a church like this telling the pastor that they will no longer tolerate authoritarianism nor the abuse the pastors dole out, demand the resignation of the pastor and their elders, and if they don’t, all walk out.

  87. one of the little people wrote:

    I don’t think this is a fair label to apply to these women.

    It appears to be an accurate label. Does the Judas Goat know what is happening to the sheep that it leads to slaughter? The Judas Goat is only doing what it was trained to do. It’s not the goat’s fault. Still, the goat does a great service for the one slaughtering the sheep. We are all individually accountable to God – we cannot blame our bad behavior on other people.

  88. Max wrote:

    December 23 has come and gone. If HBC worked their dastardly deed, it must have been in a dark smoke-filled room with only the small inner circle.

    Just saw the update on this from “Former Member of HBC” … that HBC has invited 100s of members to attend a “special meeting” on this sad situation (date?). Looks like HBC leadership decided not to deal with this via a small inner circle in a smoke-filled room. As we enter 2017, I’m hoping that the “Former Member of HBC” tribe will grow by leaps and bounds.

  89. ishy wrote:

    Just once, I’d like to hear a story of a church like this telling the pastor that they will no longer tolerate authoritarianism nor the abuse the pastors dole out, demand the resignation of the pastor and their elders, and if they don’t, all walk out.

    I think I’m going to add this to my Christmas wish list. This did happen at a church I attended when the pastor, who was being confronted by the church board (unanimously) for abusive and sinful behavior, decided we were officially joining the NAR (New Apostolic Reformation) and that he was an apostle and the elders and leaders of the church didn’t have enough authority to confront him. The entire board and most of the ministry leaders and a good part of the church left. There were enough who stayed, however, who kept the whole unhealthy thing going, believing that their loyalty was noble and godly. Most of them (not all though) were unaware of the pastor’s true character and those who were, justified it with scriptures about authority, blah blah blah. Of course, it was gossip if we warned people about what was going on, but he was free to condemn people from the pulpit. It’s very difficult to get these guys out once they are entrenched.

  90. ishy wrote:

    Just once, I’d like to hear a story of a church like this telling the pastor that they will no longer tolerate authoritarianism nor the abuse the pastors dole out, demand the resignation of the pastor and their elders, and if they don’t, all walk out.

    This is essentially happening across the SBC landscape via church splits after traditional (non-Calvinist) SBC church members realized they were deceived by new pastors of a New Calvinist bent. The rift usually begins when young whippersnapper reformers gain control of the pulpit through stealth and deception (lying to pastor search committees) and then proceed to move church governance from long-time congregational polity to elder-rule. Much weeping and gnashing of teeth ensues and old members exit, leaving church resources in the hands of the New Calvinists.

  91. @ one of the little people:

    It is actually quite simple… it is called “pride”
    I am more spirtual than you/those over there, because i believe/do “such and such”.
    I grew up, was trained/indoctiated with that kind of thinking…

  92. @ Lydia:
    He is his own person. Was it PR people that talked him into living simply when he was plain Cardinal in Argentina and lived in a three-story walk-up with an aged priest for whom he cooked meals? When he visited the poor places outside of Buenos Aires and took a bus to get there and get home, and he knew the people by name and said mass for them and baptized their children …… the man is basically a plain pastoral priest at heart. He still is. And right now, the Church needs this more than we know because the emphasis is being kept on the work and service of the Lord Christ by this pastor, as is right.

    Have a wonderful Christmas Eve. Light a vigil candle and read St. Luke’s nativity. Peace.

  93. okrapod wrote:

    Should we place bets that Burke gets assigned to a chaplaincy of a monastery in Outer Mongolia?

    What a good idea! You should write Francis a letter and suggest this. It might do Burke some good, who knows? Burke is way too political for his position.

  94. Max wrote:

    The rift usually begins when young whippersnapper reformers gain control of the pulpit through stealth and deception (lying to pastor search committees) and then proceed to move church governance from long-time congregational polity to elder-rule. Much weeping and gnashing of teeth ensues and old members exit, leaving church resources in the hands of the New Calvinists.

    Wasn't there a plan by Dee and Deb to send out a recommendation to SBC Churches to have the in-coming pastor sign a contract excluding the 'stealth' tactics? Churches need to take the responsibility to protect themselves. A little preventative action is worth a pound of gnashing of teeth and those contracts just might protect the Churches from the neo-Cal lie-bait-and switch pastors. Worth a try, yes.

  95. Jack wrote:

    Everyone’s case is different but I really think that “excommunication” is the best ending this story could hope for.

    It doesn’t make it easy but we only have so much life span, where do you want to spend it?

    This church isn’t going to change.

    It may be the best we can expect but we don’t have to accept it.

    There have been more than a few ironic stories where someone who gets excommunicated against their will only to discover freedom they weren’t seeking when they were in the abusive church. Marie’s case is much different, she left of her own volition.

    Marie says “I shouldn’t and don’t care *passionately* about what they do/think” and that is a good report, but I abhor when a few detestable men treat her reputation as their play thing to be abused and discarded. Our reputation is one of our most valuable possessions yet if we try to protect it ourselves it will prove a fruitless and potentially destructive endeavor. That task, protection of another person’s reputation, is our common responsibility. I pray that HBC’s meeting to excommunicate Marie will have at least one person present with the courage to tell them they are the ones on trial and they are condemning themselves.

  96. Max wrote:

    ishy wrote:

    Just once, I’d like to hear a story of a church like this telling the pastor that they will no longer tolerate authoritarianism nor the abuse the pastors dole out, demand the resignation of the pastor and their elders, and if they don’t, all walk out.

    This is essentially happening across the SBC landscape via church splits after traditional (non-Calvinist) SBC church members realized they were deceived by new pastors of a New Calvinist bent. The rift usually begins when young whippersnapper reformers gain control of the pulpit through stealth and deception (lying to pastor search committees) and then proceed to move church governance from long-time congregational polity to elder-rule. Much weeping and gnashing of teeth ensues and old members exit, leaving church resources in the hands of the New Calvinists.

    It’s happening folks!

  97. @ Deb:
    Yes it is. And irony of ironies it is the long time tithers who often leave quietly. People around 50-70 are leaving. The leaders pretend this is no problem and go into major recruit mode for young families but it is not long term sustainable unless you fin of such types who are regular tithers to replace them. Most people are single these days. Nine Marx has tried to fix this problem by tightening control over people’s lives even more. Church discipline for not giving enough? We will see how that works over the long haul.

  98. I can’t figure out how legally these guys can do a wholesale invasion of privacy on these women, esp. since much of what the ‘leaders’ (read:dictators) know about the marriages and stuff should fall under some confidentiality rules….shouldn’t it?

    When did Marie and the others give up their rights to privacy? Maybe putting it in a blog is enough?…

    An example from my current life makes it harder for me to understand this:

    My daughter is an advanced practice nurse in one of the best Intensive Care Units for hundreds of miles. The ICU team is currently caring for a desperately ill person who does not have much hope for survival despite all current medical knowledge.

    The family of the person is not accepting this and is posting complete names of the whole care team (Drs. RNs, Respiratory therapists) in public media with outrageous accusations of neglect of their family member.

    These wonderful people did not sign up for public abuse….and neither did these victims of Godly(tm)Abusers….

    This just is not right. But I don’t know we can stop what amounts to cyber-bullying….it is terrible.

  99. Molly245 wrote:

    An example from my current life makes it harder for me to understand this:
    My daughter is an advanced practice nurse in one of the best Intensive Care Units for hundreds of miles. The ICU team is currently caring for a desperately ill person who does not have much hope for survival despite all current medical knowledge.
    The family of the person is not accepting this and is posting complete names of the whole care team (Drs. RNs, Respiratory therapists) in public media with outrageous accusations of neglect of their family member.
    These wonderful people did not sign up for public abuse….and neither did these victims of Godly(tm)Abusers….
    This just is not right. But I don’t know we can stop what amounts to cyber-bullying….it is terrible

    BTW–no one on this care team has broken any HIPPA laws….I only know about this because of social media……the name of this hospital always catches my eye as family works there…

  100. Ken F wrote:

    From their constitution: “All who come into membership are expected to recognize and submit to the authority of the overseers of the church (1 Corinthians16:15,16; 1 Thessalonians5:12, 13; Hebrews13:17).

    I ask this every time something similar is posted:

    What if 30 years in the future we have some fake-Christians who secretly are Muslims. But they pretend very well and they get elected to be elder and even pastor. Then 90 days later they start preaching all falsehood and forcing members to worship Muslim Allah.

    The obvious answer is to “rebel” and overthrow this Muslim leadership right?

    Nope! Look at your own membership covenant! It say NOTHING about what the members can do against this new Muslim leadership. It put no requirement on its leadership, namely LOVING JESUS OUR LORD and LOVING THEIR NEIGHBORS AS THEMSELVES.

    It just say “”submit to the authority of the overseers of the church”. So even if the overseers are Muslims, you MUST submit to them. And you must worship Allah!

    Look neo-Calvinists, certainly even you can see this madness. Now you might be tempted to throw it back at me and say I am making an exception to the “norm”. OH REALLY? What is your norm? So are you saying that false prophets are rare? That power hungry abusers are rare? No they are not rare, but VERY VERY common. And they can PRETEND very well until they get into POWER.

    And this is the problem with your system. We are not all haters. We are just telling you that your system doesn’t work, and it is hurting A LOT of people. This system isn’t even biblical. If you are neo-Calvinist and you disagree with what me and many others here wrote, then come debate with us. We are all ears. We are reasonable people and we love you as a brother in Christ.

  101. I know that Maria has allowed her stories to be published but my point is that she should not have been forced into this position by the ‘Elders” threat to expose her to the whole congregation.

    Bullies!

  102. Lydia wrote:

    @ Deb:
    Yes it is. And irony of ironies it is the long time tithers who often leave quietly. People around 50-70 are leaving. The leaders pretend this is no problem and go into major recruit mode for young families but it is not long term sustainable unless you fin of such types who are regular tithers to replace them. Most people are single these days. Nine Marx has tried to fix this problem by tightening control over people’s lives even more. Church discipline for not giving enough? We will see how that works over the long haul.

    And older people are the ones who usually support the church the most with their finances.

  103. @ Christiane:
    I might agree with what some spiritual guru says but am well aware I don’t really know them. They could be torturing kittens in their basement for all i know. Or maybe knitting socks for the salvation army.

    why the need to constantly sell promote CC doctrine/practice/rehab? At least that is what I have seen from you since 2007 on blogs. I dont get the need to constantly defend and promote while trashing other groups.

    Out of a million people, I would probably be the only one that does not buy into the idea that an ancient institution that has had various degrees of ingrained coruption over millennia has now righted the ship. Because they were outed and had to pay up? Or, because of one guy? Seriously? I would feel the same about SGM, Bob Jones, etc.

    Out of a million people, I am probably the only one who thinks any spiritual institution that has been so corrupt (including SGM, SBC, Etc) is better off dissolving because the money dried up. I would have a lot more trust in people if that were the case. But all I hear is there is no perfect church as if that excuses all the past ingrained evil that operated so freely for so long. I don’t get it and realize I am pretty much alone in that.

    With that said, I will be attending the Episcopal Service tonight in spite of King Henry the 8th and my Brit friends who tell me the past evils of the CofE when they were growing up. My daughter loves the music and her school mate is playing violin. So hypocrite I am as it was a Christmas request. And I can partake there– which is nice. :o)

  104. Molly245 wrote:

    The family of the person is not accepting this and is posting complete names of the whole care team (Drs. RNs, Respiratory therapists) in public media with outrageous accusations of neglect of their family member.

    If it’s on Facebook, Twitter, etc. report it to them and ask that it be taken down.

  105. Linn wrote:

    And older people are the ones who usually support the church the most with their finances.

    And financial legacies in death. I know of one older couple who changed theirs recently because of a takeover.

  106. Velour wrote:

    Molly245 wrote:
    The family of the person is not accepting this and is posting complete names of the whole care team (Drs. RNs, Respiratory therapists) in public media with outrageous accusations of neglect of their family member.
    If it’s on Facebook, Twitter, etc. report it to them and ask that it be taken down.

    Molly, what I meant is that Facebook can take down the accounts.

  107. Deb wrote:

    I hear tell that some are calling us “EVIL”.
    For those who label us as such, it would be great if they would back up their opinion with concrete examples of what we have written that could be construed as ‘evil’.

    Part of me thinks: No, it wouldn’t – rejoice and be glad, and remember in Whose company you stand!

  108. @ Lydia:
    Hope you enjoy the Episcopal service tonight …. I hope they have wonderful music and it’s great your daughter’s friend is playing.

    So lighting a vigil candle is ‘pushing my religion’? I don’t think so …. it’s just a nice way to spend the evening at home. Sorry if the suggestion offended. (I am what I am, as the cartoon goes)

    Baking and cooking tonight and staying at home with my husband who is not at all well, I’m afraid. So, the house will be filled with smells of gingerbread, mince-meat tarts, and I’m making a walnut-rum cake too. Most of the entree’s for tomorrow await re-heating, but there is more to do that makes the table ‘special’. Centerpiece: candle, pine cones, cinnamon sticks, lemons, shiny foliage from camelia buses … very plain, but yeah. Presents are wrapped. Will sit for a time holding puppy in front of fireplace and watch ‘a service’ on telly at midnight (yes, THAT service :)) Family here tomorrrow. Big eats. Will miss tonight at Church but my place is here as I am needed to nurse.

    Enjoy your evening. Peace of this holy season to you and yours, and to all our Wartburgers who work for good.

  109. Christiane wrote:

    So lighting a vigil candle is ‘pushing my religion’? I don’t think so …. it’s just a nice way to spend the evening at home. Sorry if the suggestion offended. (I am what I am, as the cartoon goes)

    Sheesh. That had nothing to do with my comment.

  110. I am not going to church tonight. They are doing one of the Mozart masses with orchestra, and I am sure it will be great, but I am not up to it. About three months ago I injured my neck trying to cut down a holly tree (don’t ask) and I still cannot twist my neck adequately to drive, nor can I sit upright and immobile that long, which is what it would require. Anyhow, it is not about Henry or any church shenanigans or doctrine this or that. A lot of it for me-that is a lot of the holiday religious extravaganzas- is about keeping alive some of the aspects of christianity in the western tradition which we really ought not lose. Music. Art. Poetry. Beautiful use of the western languages. And yes candles and vestments and cradles with babies. What? Not about duty and discipline and social issues and politics and the latest doctrinal quibble? Nah, you might say I already gave at the office to all that. Surely it is allowed to nurture the whole person, including this way.

    But I do have a video of JP II and a Solemn Latin High Mass, so maybe I will watch that. Because, when it comes to Catholicism or Evangelicalism or Whateverism it is nice to give it all a rest at least over the holidays and just absorb whatever good there is to be had. The conflict can resume later.

  111. Lydia wrote:

    People around 50-70 are leaving.

    music (modern ‘praise bands’) drive a lot of older folks away if the Church offers nothing else in the way of choir or traditional music from the old hymns; and what I get from some older folks is that the younger pastors and members have an ‘attitude’ about their music so they let it be known that they do not feel they have to accommodate the preferences of older members of the community ….soooooo …. they walk

    ‘course having your Church ‘taken over’ by an extremist group using stealth tactics could make ANYONE walk OR maybe stay and fight the good fight

  112. okrapod wrote:

    A lot of it for me-that is a lot of the holiday religious extravaganzas- is about keeping alive some of the aspects of christianity in the western tradition which we really ought not lose.

    I went to a Christmas Pageant at my sister’s church yesterday. A bunch of kids dressed up to tell and enact the Christmas story, it doesn’t get old. One particularly wiggly sheep stole some of the show this year.

  113. Deb wrote:

    It’s happening folks!

    But the sad thing is, that the New Calvinists gain control of the church and its resources and bring in a new younger crowd to pay their salary … and the older members who financed all that over the years have to start over somewhere else.

  114. Christiane wrote:

    music (modern ‘praise bands’) drive a lot of older folks away if the Church offers nothing else in the way of choir or traditional music from the old hymns; and what I get from some older folks is that the younger pastors and members have an ‘attitude’ about their music so they let it be known that they do not feel they have to accommodate the preferences of older members of the community ….soooooo …. they walk

    That’s exactly how I feel. Our church used to be more creative with music. Now it’s the same thing every time – only songs from the radio. None of old hymns can be sung unmolested – all of them have to have some modern mark on them such as new refrains or different chords. I find myself rarely singing in church anymore. The YRRs say it is sinful to not sing in church.

  115. Ken F wrote:

    I find myself rarely singing in church anymore. The YRRs say it is sinful to not sing in church.

    don’t worry about the YRR’s …. they have plenty to worry about themselves, sounds like

    but with the new ‘neo-Cal’ cults springing up, Church must seem like a strange place and how do you ‘sing the song of the Lord in a strange land’???

    The old songs belong to the old theology that the neo-Cals have markedly changed is my guess, and they can’t handle the old hymns’ lyrics with their new teachings. Just a guess on my part. But it’s sad. People LOVED their hymns. Cherished them. Something wrong with taking that away from the old people, seems cruel to do it, yes.

  116. Christiane wrote:

    The old songs belong to the old theology that the neo-Cals have markedly changed is my guess, and they can’t handle the old hymns’ lyrics with their new teachings. Just a guess on my part. But it’s sad. People LOVED their hymns. Cherished them. Something wrong with taking that away from the old people, seems cruel to do it, yes.

    Here’s an example: http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/your-church-needs-to-hear-you-sing.

    I found myself surprised by the joy of singing in way I never expected a few days ago. We visited an old friend in her retirement home a few days ago. One of the ladies in the home played hymns and Christmas songs on her grand piano (she is an amazing pianist). My adult children and I sang loudly. It made me remember that I can actually carry a tune. And it was a great joy to sing the old songs.

  117. Christiane wrote:

    music (modern ‘praise bands’) drive a lot of older folks away if the Church offers nothing else in the way of choir or traditional music from the old hymns; and what I get from some older folks is that the younger pastors and members have an ‘attitude’ about their music so they let it be known that they do not feel they have to accommodate the preferences of older members of the community ….soooooo …. they walk

    The type of music doesn’t bother me, as I’ve sung classical since a child, as well as play bass guitar, but I am really bothered by churches who remove all members from any sort of music and arts, and hire professionals. The New Testament is quite clear in a number of places that church and worship should utilize the gifts of the members.

    Music is one of the things I am very passionate about, and I believe the congregation should be involved in all aspects of worship. This idea of a professional stage show service that revolves around the pastor really bothers me, and I believe it is performance, not worship in any way, shape, or form.

  118. Christmas Thoughts…

    In the Gulag Archipelago, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn wrote:

    “If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of one’s own heart?”

    If evil were something done by evil people to good people, then God would only need to destroy the evil people. But since ‘the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being,’ God had to use a different plan to save us.”

    And what an incredible Plan, and here we are on Christmas Eve, remembering, exulting, hoping! It’s nothing but Grace…

    Thanks Be to God! I am overcome with gratitude and love!

    A very Merry and Happy and Meaningful Christmas to you all!

  119. Christiane wrote:

    okrapod wrote:

    Should we place bets that Burke gets assigned to a chaplaincy of a monastery in Outer Mongolia?

    What a good idea! You should write Francis a letter and suggest this. It might do Burke some good, who knows? Burke is way too political for his position.

    Outer Mongolia is apparently getting quite cosmopolitan. Ulaanbaatur, the capital, has over 1.3 million people. I might suggest Tristan da Cunha instead. Small but active Catholic population (well the entire population is about 280 most of whom are Anglican) and probably does not have a resident priest. Not accessible by air but only by ship (9 scheduled per year plus the occasional odd ship stopping by). The overseeing jurisdiction includes the Falklands, St. Helena [where Napoleon was exiled], and Ascension Island and is directly under the control of the Pope (no bishop). http://www.tristandc.com/ Admittedly it might be cruel to the local parish.

    Hope everyone has a good Christmas.

  120. My church announced a one hour service cmas a.m come in your p.j,s.Come on preachers you don’t want to be their just cancel and tell the truth.We attend one of these “services’ when we were young and drinking the cool aid.We felt like we had to show up and dragged 5 small kids away from a party where we were the only ones that showed beside the church underling who didn’t want to be their.Total time 40 minutes,we went back to the original party and partied till midnight.GOD HELP THE CHURCH.

  121. I’ve read through most of this thread, but I may have overlooked it – did this church go through with its public shaming of Marie today? Or did they come to their senses and drop that?

  122. Attended Christmas Eve service at a rural SBC church where my son-in-law is a bi-vocational pastor. A great service of Scripture reading, congregational singing, and candlelight communion. My daughter sang and I held my grandson on my lap as he took in the service. Christ was certainly the reason for the season at that little church tonight. Proud of my son-in-law; not every SBC seminary trained young pastor is off-track in New Calvinism.

  123. @ Max:
    Thanks for sharing Max. In a few moments, I will be going with my daughter to a Candlelight Christmas Eve service at the church she attends. It’s a conservative church that as far as I can tell avoids Calvinism.

  124. Daisy wrote:

    I’ve read through most of this thread, but I may have overlooked it – did this church go through with its public shaming of Marie today? Or did they come to their senses and drop that?

    I believe they will be doing it at the time and in the setting that they deem wise and discreet (their words, not mine). I don't think it has happened yet, but who knows???

    Hoping Marie will take the time to listen to this week's EChurch, which I just posted a few moments ago. Wade's words will be a tremendous encouragement!

  125. It’s what women are taught. I was taught it at HBC. There are many fantastic men and women at HBC but unfortunately you are only taught to view scripture one way and all the reasons NOTHING else is possible. My mind was blown as I began to study on my own to realize that many things I was taught at HBC were not as black and white as they were taught and that no, I don’t need to treat people as less than me or not as “trained” if they view or see scripture and doctrine differently than I do. And God forbid a woman like me start to ask questions about it.. I was put in my place. Doctrine is man’s attempt to make sense of God. It can be good, but doctrine should never replace Jesus. I remember the day I was told that as a woman, I would never hold a position of leadership that I was gifted in, and that its unbiblical for women to do so. I found many routes around it to serve within HBC. But my frustration built and I earnestly kept seeking the Lord and asking Him what my next step was to be. I could see my gifts could no longer be used to care for the Body within HBC and my spiritual capacity was becoming increasingly less as I was struggling to make sense of how to use my spiritual gifts within a church that so highly restricts women. Ultimately, I decided to pursue other avenues and left HBC. A book that deeply helped me was emotionally healthy spirituality. I never expected HBC or any other church for that matter to be perfect. I knew most on leadership and I loved many many people there. But it would be unwise to stay closely tied in a family that is consistently showing signs of unhealthy and damaging affects on oneself and others. Boundaries. Christian can suck at boundaries (in my experience). Same is true for a church family. Yes, yes you do leave families of all kinds that are unhealthy, even church families. It was a difficult time, oh but the freedom I now I have and the healing I have experienced makes it all so worth it! My mind and heart have been opened to Jesus in ways I hadn’t known they weren’t. Sometimes we just have to take the next step. Even when it’s scary and we feel alone and will receive judgement or “ousting” letters. Oh guys, I wish it didn’t have to be this way. I wish we actually cared for people like family. That’s my hope, to be a minister or reconciliations, to live in such a way that I truly care for others as family.

    Ken F wrote:

    What I don’t understand is why there are so many women in these churches who are pushing for this as well. It’s not just the men doing it. In the case of Janet Surette, the upcoming speaker at the HBC women’s conference, she is pushing this just as hard as he men. Here is quote from her site (http://janetsurette.com/about/): “Though my ministry takes me beyond my local church and is a separate entity from it, I cherish and joyfully submit to the authority, doctrine and protection I am afforded at Southshore Bible Church. To learn more about it and read up on the doctrine that I hold to in my life and teaching, I invite you to visit…”
    As Jack wrote above, her church’s constitution and web-site make it sound “as much fun as a fall down a flight of stairs.”

  126. Molly245 wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Thanks for the advice Velour~
    Hoping that I can get this done.
    Merry Christmas!

    Welcome, Molly.

    Merry Christmas to you too!

  127. Another Former HBCer wrote:

    My mind and heart have been opened to Jesus in ways I hadn’t known they weren’t. Sometimes we just have to take the next step. Even when it’s scary and we feel alone and will receive judgement or “ousting” letters. Oh guys, I wish it didn’t have to be this way. I wish we actually cared for people like family. That’s my hope, to be a minister or reconciliations, to live in such a way that I truly care for others as family.

    Thanks for sharing with us. This was both informative and promises hope. It’s sometimes really discouraging to see churches do these things to people, but it’s good to be reminded that there are people being freed from them, and then turning around and sharing that freedom with others.

  128. Ken F wrote:

    What I don’t understand is why there are so many women in these churches who are pushing for this as well. It’s not just the men doing it. In the case of Janet Surette, the upcoming speaker at the HBC women’s conference, she is pushing this just as hard as he men. Here is quote from her site (http://janetsurette.com/about/): “Though my ministry takes me beyond my local church and is a separate entity from it, I cherish and joyfully submit to the authority, doctrine and protection I am afforded at Southshore Bible Church. To learn more about it and read up on the doctrine that I hold to in my life and teaching, I invite you to visit…”

    They misunderstand the scriptures and believe that God requires this.

    “The protection I am afforded” – ha! protection from what, I’d like to ask? These guys are never there when you actually need them. Eventually she may need some kind of protection and find out it’s nothing but words, after all, and come to her senses.

  129. Bill M wrote:

    okrapod wrote:

    A lot of it for me-that is a lot of the holiday religious extravaganzas- is about keeping alive some of the aspects of christianity in the western tradition which we really ought not lose.

    I went to a Christmas Pageant at my sister’s church yesterday. A bunch of kids dressed up to tell and enact the Christmas story, it doesn’t get old. One particularly wiggly sheep stole some of the show this year.

    No, it doesn’t get old. When everything else has crumbled, these are the things that stick with me, as well.

    Merry Christmas to the Deebs and to all my friends here at the WW; I do consider you friends.

  130. If you can stomach it, listen to Pastor Tim’s sermon on divorce (July 31). It’s a telling look into their attitudes toward the subject. Around the 35 minute mark or so, he goes into ten “excuses” for divorce and goes about dismissing most of them in a rather flippant and condescending way, if you ask me. These guys aren’t going to admit they are wrong in Marie’s (and other’s) cases since that would be an admission that their teachings on divorce were wrong.

    And their delicate egos can’t take that. These type of men have a hard time when it comes to “manning up” and admitting their mistakes.

    Oh, and Merry Christmas, everyone! I’d suggest holding off on listening to Tim’s sermon until after celebrating.
    http://heritagebiblechapel.org/media/sermons/2/

  131. Another Former HBCer wrote:

    It’s what women are taught. I was taught it at HBC. There are many fantastic men and women at HBC but unfortunately you are only taught to view scripture one way and all the reasons NOTHING else is possible.

    I’m not very much different. I was Navigators-trained in college. People meant well, but left a wake of destruction. It’s so easy to get groomed by “spiritual leaders.” I’m glad for sites like this. I don’t agree with everything I find written here, but I am very grateful for the opportunity to work through what I have been taught all these years. Even the trolls offer insights and perspectives that I find helpful (if for no other reason than to confirm why their path should be avoided).

    Merry Christmas to all!

  132. Ken F wrote:

    I was Navigators-trained in college.

    If that means memorizing bible verses with some out of context and some not so much, I was old time Baptist trained in that at a younger age, but thanks be to God by the time I got to college (undergrad) I spent my time over in the Division of Natural Sciences and that probably saved my sanity. And my faith. It did from many an error free me, and foolish notion. Apologies to Burns for the use of his words.

  133. siteseer wrote:

    Ken F wrote:

    What I don’t understand is why there are so many women in these churches who are pushing for this as well. It’s not just the men doing it. In the case of Janet Surette, the upcoming speaker at the HBC women’s conference, she is pushing this just as hard as he men. Here is quote from her site (http://janetsurette.com/about/): “Though my ministry takes me beyond my local church and is a separate entity from it, I cherish and joyfully submit to the authority, doctrine and protection I am afforded at Southshore Bible Church. To learn more about it and read up on the doctrine that I hold to in my life and teaching, I invite you to visit…”

    They misunderstand the scriptures and believe that God requires this.

    “The protection I am afforded” – ha! protection from what, I’d like to ask? These guys are never there when you actually need them. Eventually she may need some kind of protection and find out it’s nothing but words, after all, and come to her senses.

    They’re the mob. They protect you from themselves!!

    Merry Christmas all!

  134. @ Max:

    Merry Christmas Max! Your comments are always 'spot on'! May you and your loved ones have a blessed day celebrating the birth of Jesus.

  135. For all of their talk about my need to ‘repent’ for leaving my abuser, there seems to be no talk about my abuser repenting of his treatment of me, which is ongoing. Last attempt at conversation I had with him was on October 7th:

    ME: “Do you want reconciliation?”
    HIM: “No!! I want you as far away from me as possible!”
    ME: “Do you repent or at least acknowledge the torment and abuse you put me through?”
    HIM: “No! I didn’t! You deserved all that and more! You weren’t ‘submissive’ enough. My anger problems are all your fault. Bible says wife has to submit BEFORE husband to love her!” (sic)

    The yelling, false accusations, degradation and intimidation attempts continued for almost 2 hours.

    Will this be ‘told to the church’? No. Of course not. The version HBC has created is a more convenient, comfortable one – a version that casts me, the victim, as being in the wrong. But God sees all…..and one day, He will set everything right. 🙂

  136. @ Marie Notcheva:

    Merry Christmas Marie!

    We are getting the word out about these men who claim to be 'Christian' but actually have hearts of stone. As they say, actions speak louder than words…

    May 2017 be a year filled with God's blessings for you and your children.

  137. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    But God sees all…..and one day, He will set everything right.

    Yes, He will. That bothers me a tad since the Right that He is going to set will on some things be at my expense, but none the less Rightness will prevail. Where I have failed, and there is a gracious plenty of that, does not excuse the evils perpetrated against me and my lack of perfection does not entitle my enemies to try to destroy me as it seems your enemies are trying to do to you.

    Oh, but enemies is too strong a word?? Phooey. It is a biblical word and dealing with enemies is something that Jesus himself discussed.

    Bless you, Marie, and God keep you this Christmas and always.

  138. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    HIM: “No! I didn’t! You deserved all that and more! You weren’t ‘submissive’ enough. My anger problems are all your fault. Bible says wife has to submit BEFORE husband to love her!” (sic)

    So, before a husband can love a wife, a wife has to submit?

    This is a perfect excuse: You didn’t submit (or submit “enough”), therefore, I don’t have to love you.

    As a previous comment said:

    Phooey!!

  139. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    Will this be ‘told to the church’? No. Of course not. The version HBC has created is a more convenient, comfortable one – a version that casts me, the victim, as being in the wrong. But God sees all…..and one day, He will set everything right.

    You are def. doing the right thing by severing ties. I’ve found that abuse leaders and cults like this are generally not worth dealing with.

  140. This is really something to read how poorly these leaders are treating Marie and supposedly in the name of Christ.

    I always find it something how many leaders like to quote and have applied Proverbs 18:17:

    “In a lawsuit the first to speak seems right, until someone comes forward and cross-examines.

    when someone is talking about a leader but then this same rules doesn’t apply when they want to do “church discipline.” Shouldn’t if they are going to “tell it to the church” allow the church to hear both sides and let the church members decide?

    It sounds like these leaders (though I am sure they think they are doing right) have become what Paul warned about close to his death in Acts 20:30:

    “Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.”

    Sadly it appears that these men are in fact “distorting the truth”(Word of God) to draw people to follow THEM and NOT Christ. Again I am sure they sincerely think they are following Christ but are actually trying to get their own disciples. Sad.

    The Hebrews 13:17 passage that leaders seem to quote I have heard has really been mistranslated but even if it is true these leaders seem to be forgetting the 2nd part of this passage: They will one day have to give an account to God for their actions.

    I wonder if they have given this fact nearly as much thought and taken to heart as they have done all their teaching on their supposed authority. God has all the videos and promises one day to reveal thoughts and intentions. (I Cor 4:5)

  141. One other though is that passage that people quote about how is is “forbidden” to use a lawsuit against the church I have seen it argued that is more applies to smaller matters vs. something large.

    I think I would like to see Marie hiring a bulldog type lawyer to sue this church if they follow through on their threat to “lovingly pursue” Marie after she sent in her resignation letter. Hire a tough bulldog lawyer that will take the case with no upfront fee but get paid from whatever settlement they get out of the lawsuit. Money and the cost of litigation (can get extremely expensive) might be the only thing that gets the attention of these “spiritual” bullies. Maybe the church will have to take out a significant loan against their property to pay the legal fees.

    Also each person involved in doing this “loving pursuit” could be personally sued I believe (I am not a lawyer) and have to pay out of their own funds the cost of defending themselves. This is again quite expensive when you are paying by the hour and is in the range of $300/hour or more.

    This might be a lesson to other churches about the consequences of bullying someone in the supposed name of Jesus.

  142. Steve240 wrote:

    Sadly it appears that these men are in fact “distorting the truth”(Word of God) to draw people to follow THEM and NOT Christ. Again I am sure they sincerely think they are following Christ but are actually trying to get their own disciples. Sad.

    Scripture warns of such teachers: “There are, of course, some things which are difficult to understand, and which, unhappily, ill-informed and unbalanced people distort (as they do the other scriptures), and bring disaster on their own heads.” (2 Peter 3:16)

    Sadly, unbalanced teachers (New Calvinism is unbalanced) also bring disaster on those who sit under their teachings.

  143. Another Former HBCer wrote:

    as a woman, I would never hold a position of leadership that I was gifted in, and that its unbiblical for women to do so. I found many routes around it to serve within HBC. But my frustration built and I earnestly kept seeking the Lord and asking Him what my next step was to be. I could see my gifts could no longer be used to care for the Body within HBC and my spiritual capacity was becoming increasingly less as I was struggling to make sense of how to use my spiritual gifts within a church that so highly restricts women.

    Same here …… and my church is a non-Calvinist Missionary Baptist Church. A 9-year-old boy has preached from the pulpit, but women are not allowed to speak in mixed gender SS classes! We have to go to our segregated women’s class if we wish to participate in discussions.
    If the men want church all to themselves, they can have it ……. Making covered dishes for fellowship meals and all!

  144. Lea wrote:

    They’re the mob. They protect you from themselves!!
    Merry Christmas all!

    Tithes = “protection” money?

  145. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    Bible says wife has to submit BEFORE husband to love her!”

    Interesting, in light of the talk about whether this was ‘transactional’ we had a week or two ago. I wonder how many believe this?

  146. Steve240 wrote:

    I always find it something how many leaders like to quote and have applied Proverbs 18:17:
    “In a lawsuit the first to speak seems right, until someone comes forward and cross-examines.

    I think a few of them take this WAY too literally, thinking the first person to talk is always wrong. I read that more as listen to both sides before making a judgment.

  147. Max wrote:

    Scripture warns of such teachers: “There are, of course, some things which are difficult to understand, and which, unhappily, ill-informed and unbalanced people distort (as they do the other scriptures), and bring disaster on their own heads.” (2 Peter 3:16)
    Sadly, unbalanced teachers (New Calvinism is unbalanced) also bring disaster on those who sit under their teachings.

    That passage also crossed my mind.

    Also I Peter 4:2:

    Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

    Perhaps (and sure seems to be the case) that these leader are both “hypocritcal liars” and have a “seared conscience.”

    Also the beginning of II Peter 2

    “1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.”

    It says many will follow their shameful ways and bring the way of the truth (Christianity) into disrepute.

    It also talks about greed and the use of fabricated stories. It sure seems like this applies to this situation.

    Leaving soon to be with family. Everyone have a Merry Christmas.

  148. One other passage.

    Paul talks about in II Corinthians 11:

    “19You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise! 20In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or puts on airs or slaps you in the face. 21To my shame I admit that we were too weak for that!

    Paul is basically telling the Corinthians that they shouldn’t put up with anyone of who exploits, takes advantage or enslaves you. This is a command of scripture despite all this supposed leaders being one’s “authority.”

    If these leaders that are supposedly your “spiritual authority” and they are enslaving you then Paul is saying not to put up with it. I see not conditions on this command such as an exception if one is an authority over you. A shame that in the past I didn’t follow this instruction of Paul.

    Again Paul is saying despite someone’s supposed position to not put up with someone if they enslave you etc.

    Isn’t this sad how so many leaders seem to only teach passages of scripture that justify their “authority” but don’t teach what we are to be careful about with leaders? Do these leaders not fear that they might be wrong and one day will have to give an account to God for their actions?

  149. Steve240 wrote:

    I think I would like to see Marie hiring a bulldog type lawyer to sue this church if they follow through on their threat to “lovingly pursue” Marie after she sent in her resignation letter. Hire a tough bulldog lawyer that will take the case with no upfront fee but get paid from whatever settlement they get out of the lawsuit.

    From a business law course at Cal Poly some 40 years ago, I understand a 40% cut of the take upon winning is normal. And that tort lawyers will take a plaintiff’s case on spec like that. While the defendant’s lawyer normally demands cash up front. That’s why in civil cases the Deep Pockets advantage is usually with the plaintiff.

    (Though a lot of these Truly Reformed abusive cult-churches seem to have very deep pockets, including the best shysters money can buy and practically unlimited funds — TITHE! TITHE! TITHE! TITHE! TITHE!)

    And commenters have recommended specific lawyers to Marie.

    I concur Marie should look into taking them to court if they keep it up. Plus stalking/harassment charges. Part of me says you have to Hit The Abuser HARD to get him to back off. And to set a precedent so they won’t try it again; what’s to keep them from doing the same to the next battered wife under their Predestined control?

    And if she can find other HBC women who’ve had the same dirt done to them, that establishes a pattern as well as strength in numbers — look at the Bill Cosby scandal. Sometimes it takes numbers to make the point.

    And check with Velour for other ways to make their Predestined Elect lives “Interesting”; she’s been having to fight a rear-guard counterattack against that abusive Silicon Valley former church of hers.

  150. Tina wrote:

    This is a perfect excuse: You didn’t submit (or submit “enough”), therefore, I don’t have to love you.

    That’s how an NPD/Sociopath thinks.

    “If you weren’t being so Unreasonable, I wouldn’t have to play hardball like this.”
    — my NPD brother, when he cheated me out of an inheritance (legally-airtight, of course — everything groomed twenty chess moves in advance)

  151. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    But God sees all…..and one day, He will set everything right.

    Marie, that sounds a lot like a cop-out.
    A variant on “In the Sweet By-and-By, You’ll get Pie in the Sky when you die.”
    If you don’t resist, they’ll just keep pushing and grabbing for more.
    Not resisting or running triggers a Prey Recognition Response in predators, whether four or two-legged.

    “Nothing’s worse than a monster who thinks he’s right with God.”
    Except maybe a monster who KNOWS he’s Right with God.

  152. Ken F wrote:

    I’m not very much different. I was Navigators-trained in college.

    JMJ over at Christian Monist (now https://jmichaeljoneswriter.com/blog/) was both burned-out and Burned by the Navigators. At Cal Poly in the Seventies, they had the reputation of the highest rate of burnouts and flunkouts of any on-campus group.

    People meant well, but left a wake of destruction.

    I’ve heard “They Meant Well” used in the past to excuse a lot of really bad stuff.
    And we all know the destination of the road paved with Good Intentions.

  153. AnonInNC wrote:

    These guys aren’t going to admit they are wrong in Marie’s (and other’s) cases since that would be an admission that their teachings on divorce were wrong.

    I still wonder if all these scream-from-the-pulpit teachings are to keep their own Wifeys from bailing out on them.

  154. ishy wrote:

    Music is one of the things I am very passionate about, and I believe the congregation should be involved in all aspects of worship. This idea of a professional stage show service that revolves around the pastor really bothers me, and I believe it is performance, not worship in any way, shape, or form.

    And what happens when someone down the street (not necessarily a church) comes up with an even more kickin’ stage show?

  155. @ Steve240:
    sadly, some mistake the ‘turn the other cheek’ verse for allowing abuse to continue where it seems like you are encouraging the abuser to strike you again, that it’s ‘okay’ with you;

    but in the days of the Roman occupation of the Holy Land, it was a dishonorable act for a Roman soldier to strike someone with the BACK of his hand. These soldiers could strike with their palms, but the other was considered cowardly and beneath them and it brought shame on the abuser.

    So the teaching of ‘turn the other cheek’ would have meant that the abuser would dishonor himself to continue with the abuse… the teaching was a DISCOURAGEMENT of continuing to be what was harmful to the victim.

    I have always thought that discouraging abuse was one of the most profound acts of loving-kindness because it gets the abuser to stop up short and think about their actions in a different way: something has happened to disturb the ‘flow’ of their anger turning into abuse …. something that gives pause. If nothing more, the teaching is another example of how Our Lord ‘holds up a mirror’ whereby people can see themselves as they really are, not as they envision themselves. Such was His wisdom.

    Marie said ‘no more’ to abuse. It was the best, most Christian thing she could have done.

  156. Bill M wrote:

    I went to a Christmas Pageant at my sister’s church yesterday. A bunch of kids dressed up to tell and enact the Christmas story, it doesn’t get old. One particularly wiggly sheep stole some of the show this year.

    Was “wiggly sheep” a costumed kid or an actual live animal?

    If the latter, check under your pews and in the closets for a Chinese Dragon made of mismatched animal parts with a voice like John De Lancie, because live critters onstage is an opportunity for things to get really Interesting. The live animal taking a dump front-and-center onstage is a classic, and there’s YouTube footage of a mega whose live camel being led in decided to stop and sit down on top of a full pew.

  157. Nancy2 wrote:

    Same here …… and my church is a non-Calvinist Missionary Baptist Church. A 9-year-old boy has preached from the pulpit, but women are not allowed to speak in mixed gender SS classes! We have to go to our segregated women’s class if we wish to participate in discussions.

    And all this from The Word of God huh?
    No wonder some have dubbed it ‘chrislam’.

  158. Steve240 wrote:

    Isn’t this sad how so many leaders seem to only teach passages of scripture that justify their “authority” but don’t teach what we are to be careful about with leaders? Do these leaders not fear that they might be wrong and one day will have to give an account to God for their actions?

    This to me is the signal that they are really unbelievers without the Holy Spirit. Someone guided by the Holy Spirit would do so.

    I think their god is themselves and their church system they’ve set up to cater to themselves. Therefore, I wouldn’t treat them like believers, but as wolves abusing the flock.

  159. @ Muff Potter:
    wonder if it ever occurs to these men that treating women far worse than Our Lord EVER treated them while claiming to serve Christ is a way of mocking Our Lord, as if they could do more to Him having created ESS to belittle Him to support their male idolatry and to state that the Bible is no longer to be read through ‘the lens of Christ’ ?????

    Preening self-centered male bullies of women are NOT Christ-followers, no. Theologically they went as far as they dared to disown Christ for the sake of their contempt for the dignity of women as human persons and for their own glorification as ‘males’, but still they would call themselves ‘Christian’????

  160. Christiane wrote:

    Preening self-centered male bullies of women are NOT Christ-followers, no. Theologically they went as far as they dared to disown Christ for the sake of their contempt for the dignity of women as human persons and for their own glorification as ‘males’, but still they would call themselves ‘Christian’????

    Probably because there are a lot of gullible Christians to abuse.

  161. @ ishy:
    The whole focus on heirarchies, central planning and authority in Christianity has been an obvious disaster for several thousand years now. We have had some brave radicals in there bucking the heirarchies institutions, thankfully our Founders did, too. Why do we forget that? Church is voluntary.

    These caste systems are just not necessary. The Holy Spirit is not so easily tamed.

  162. Lydia wrote:

    @ ishy:
    The whole focus on heirarchies, central planning and authority in Christianity has been an obvious disaster for several thousand years now. We have had some brave radicals in there bucking the heirarchies institutions, thankfully our Founders did, too. Why do we forget that? Church is voluntary.
    These caste systems are just not necessary. The Holy Spirit is not so easily tamed.

    Indeed. Which is why the “Kingdom” Jesus presented was so radically different to the one the Jews had in mind (the one EXACTLY like these authoritarian churches envision).

    But, I guess if you don’t talk about Jesus, then you can pretend He never said those things.

  163. Lydia wrote:

    Sheesh. That had nothing to do with my comment.

    Of course it didn’t. 🙁 Merry Christmas to you, Lydia. I have learned much from your postings (and others’ too, of course), and I am grateful for it.

  164. @ ishy:
    What a bizarre and confusing threat this nobody from Nazareth must have posed to the religious leaders of His time!

  165. AnonInNC wrote:

    If you can stomach it, listen to Pastor Tim’s sermon on divorce (July 31). It’s a telling look into their attitudes toward the subject. Around the 35 minute mark or so, he goes into ten “excuses” for divorce and goes about dismissing most of them in a rather flippant and condescending way, if you ask me. These guys aren’t going to admit they are wrong in Marie’s (and other’s) cases since that would be an admission that their teachings on divorce were wrong.
    And their delicate egos can’t take that. These type of men have a hard time when it comes to “manning up” and admitting their mistakes.

    At my ex-church Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley (authoritarian/9Marxist/John MacArthur-ite/Complmentarian-Patriarch) the senior pastor would say from the pulpit in mocking tones that there is ‘no such thing as emotional abuse’ when discussing divorce and why two Christians should stay married. By the way, scores of men and women former church members — all ages and professions — describe the senior pastor as one of the most ’emotionally abusive’ people they have ever met in their lives and described meetings in which he screamed at them and demeaned them, threatened them. He did same to me.

  166. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Not resisting or running triggers a Prey Recognition Response in predators, whether four or two-legged.

    Maybe but this isn’t Mutual of Omaha Wild Kingdom.

    Depending on the clown show you’re dealing with, for your own mental health you’ve got to just go.

    Get your kids. Just leave. Cut comms. Burn the bridge.

    Some recommendations I’ve seen give advice to not tell anyone your intention to leave.

    I know that isn’t everyone’s situation but it’s not cowardly or a cop out. It’s just as brave.

    “Dust off & nuke them from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure” – Aliens (1986)

  167. Lydia wrote:

    What a bizarre and confusing threat this nobody from Nazareth must have posed to the religious leaders of His time!

    And that’s exactly what the Scriptures say too.

  168. Jack wrote:

    Depending on the clown show you’re dealing with, for your own mental health you’ve got to just go.
    Get your kids. Just leave. Cut comms. Burn the bridge.
    Some recommendations I’ve seen give advice to not tell anyone your intention to leave.

    That’s how I left my former church. After one Sunday I just stopped attending and removed all church members from my Facebook. I’ve received one missed call and one FB message from the pastor since, neither of which I responded to. To their credit, I think they’ve taken the hint that I’m not returning.

  169. Bill M wrote:

    It may be the best we can expect but we don’t have to accept it.

    Collectively it should be unacceptable but for the abused person I feel the first concern is your own health & safety. It goes without saying that your children are most definitely in that statement.

    These pastors are pathological in their obsession with control. I daresay there are a number of them who are psychopaths.

    You will not reason with them or those in their orbit. Expose them? Yes. Change them? I don’t think so.

    And yes the only thing you may walk away with is your freedom. And (barring criminal proceedings) that may be the only justice you’ll receive.

  170. Jack wrote:

    Some recommendations I’ve seen give advice to not tell anyone your intention to leave.
    I know that isn’t everyone’s situation but it’s not cowardly or a cop out. It’s just as brave.

    Yes. We left while still splashing in the koolaid (we didn’t just drink it; it surrounded us; we were immersed), so I foolishly looked up articles on “How to Leave Well”. Guess who publishes those kinds of articles…?

  171. Christiane wrote:

    still they would call themselves ‘Christian’????

    ’cause the word “Christian” used to mean something, and carried with it a certain level of trust and promise of integrity.

    That’s fading, though. I can’t tell you how many people I’ve heard say would not go to or sell to a “Christian” business (like you see the “fish” symbol in their ad in the yellow pages) for various reasons, including slow payment and poor workmanship.

  172. @ refugee:
    Further thought: The only people who don’t seem to have a clue are the other trusting Christians, but their ranks are also thinning as more and more of them become Dones.

  173. Merry Christmas, Deb and Dee and all who read here.

    Am going to try to take a break for a bit, but I appreciate all the Deebs do.

  174. Christiane wrote:

    wonder if it ever occurs to these men that treating women far worse than Our Lord EVER treated them while claiming to serve Christ is a way of mocking Our Lord, as if they could do more to Him having created ESS to belittle Him to support their male idolatry and to state that the Bible is no longer to be read through ‘the lens of Christ’ ?????

    Well asked, Christiane!

  175. ishy wrote:

    Steve240 wrote:
    Isn’t this sad how so many leaders seem to only teach passages of scripture that justify their “authority” but don’t teach what we are to be careful about with leaders? Do these leaders not fear that they might be wrong and one day will have to give an account to God for their actions?

    This to me is the signal that they are really unbelievers without the Holy Spirit. Someone guided by the Holy Spirit would do so.
    I think their god is themselves and their church system they’ve set up to cater to themselves. Therefore, I wouldn’t treat them like believers, but as wolves abusing the flock.

    Agree completely.

  176. Lydia wrote:

    @ Debi Calvet:
    Thanks. I won’t be winning any popularity contests. But that isn’t my raison d’être. :o)

    You’re a plain speaker. I like that.

  177. refugee wrote:

    I can’t tell you how many people I’ve heard say would not go to or sell to a “Christian” business (like you see the “fish” symbol in their ad in the yellow pages) for various reasons, including slow payment and poor workmanship.

    Yep. *raises hand* I am self-employed, and when a potential client is very vocal that he’s a Christian (and it’s always a he, by the way — Christian women are far more respectful), I know to insist on an airtight contract. Otherwise they can get very slippery, expect special favors “from one Christian to another,” try to haggle down prices in a disrespectful manner, ask for special payment terms that present a hardship for me, etc.

  178. Jack wrote:

    You will not reason with them or those in their orbit. Expose them? Yes. Change them? I don’t think so.

    This is exactly right. When I was dealing with this the only blog/forum I could find that even discussed any of this stuff was Ingrid Schlueters, Slice of Laodicea. That precious brave woman will have my eternal gratitude.

    If people ask, I advise them to leave quietly. Then officially resign membership. If they want to then speak up about their experience make sure they are protected in various ways. Charlatans have a platform and are blindly respected by many who don’t even know them personally. They know their stage persona which is carefully crafted. They can ruin people which is why many never say a word. It would ruin their careers or business.

  179. Lydia wrote:

    This is exactly right. When I was dealing with this the only blog/forum I could find that even discussed any of this stuff was Ingrid Schlueters, Slice of Laodicea. That precious brave woman will have my eternal gratitude.

    Ingrid Schlueter is a personal friend of mine. She’s one of several Christian writers following this absurdity and defending me publicly.

  180. refugee wrote:

    I can’t tell you how many people I’ve heard say would not go to or sell to a “Christian” business (like you see the “fish” symbol in their ad in the yellow pages) for various reasons, including slow payment and poor workmanship.

    One of the guest commenters at Internet Monk (I think it was Jeff Dunn) used to work in some sort of newspaper ad agency. He said policy was if customer self-identified as Christian it would be cash up front, no exceptions. They’d been burned so many times they’d extend credit to a crystal meth tweaker before they would a Christian(TM).

  181. refugee wrote:

    the word “Christian” used to mean something, and carried with it a certain level of trust and promise of integrity

    Have you noticed how many political candidates suddenly get Jesus when they launch their campaigns?! I had a civil engineer tell me that in one of his college classes the professor advised him to be sure to join “First” church when he established his practice in a community; it would be good visibility for his business. Most prominent businessmen in small town America join the largest church, particularly the insurance agents, bankers and undertakers … some are even Christian.

  182. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    They’d been burned so many times they’d extend credit to a crystal meth tweaker before they would a Christian(TM).

    A man’s word should be his bond regardless of religion. But the world has moved on. (as Stephen King puts it in his Gunslinger saga)

  183. Marie

    I asked this question I on a previous Wartburg Watch post about your situation but don’t think I saw you comment.

    Have your church leaders done anything to your husband or threatened him with church discipline for his actions? I am just curious. These (typically male) leaders always seem to want to “discipline” women for divorcing abusive husbands but you never hear about them disciplining abusive husbands for their actions. Wouldn’t it make as much sense for your husband to be brought before the church for his repeated and hence unrepentant actions? Isn’t it his repeated actions that are causing this to occur?

    Are these church leaders clueless about this cause? If your husband isn’t loving you as God commands (like Christ loved the church as Paul writes about) then isn’t your husband in unrepentant sin?

    I am always so baffled that this is so one sided.

  184. ishy wrote:

    Steve240 wrote:
    Isn’t this sad how so many leaders seem to only teach passages of scripture that justify their “authority” but don’t teach what we are to be careful about with leaders? Do these leaders not fear that they might be wrong and one day will have to give an account to God for their actions?
    This to me is the signal that they are really unbelievers without the Holy Spirit. Someone guided by the Holy Spirit would do so.
    I think their god is themselves and their church system they’ve set up to cater to themselves. Therefore, I wouldn’t treat them like believers, but as wolves abusing the flock.

    I am sure these leaders THINK they are being Christian and doing the right thing. Sadly their actions demonstrate just what can happen when they become so arrogant and thus lacking any humility and not submitting to Christ and HIS Lordship their actions.

  185. ishy wrote:

    Steve240 wrote:
    Isn’t this sad how so many leaders seem to only teach passages of scripture that justify their “authority” but don’t teach what we are to be careful about with leaders? Do these leaders not fear that they might be wrong and one day will have to give an account to God for their actions?
    This to me is the signal that they are really unbelievers without the Holy Spirit. Someone guided by the Holy Spirit would do so.
    I think their god is themselves and their church system they’ve set up to cater to themselves. Therefore, I wouldn’t treat them like believers, but as wolves abusing the flock.

    That is a very good point about their god being both themselves and the church system. I would put it this way that their church system has become their idol.

    Rather than seek God as to what He wants done sadly many fall into the trap of having an idol such as their church system and policies and defend this at all costs.

  186. GMFS

    I couldn’t think of anything uplifting or even slightly funny to say this morning, so I’ll stick with this from Proverbs 17:

    Even a fool, when he keeps silent, is considered wise…

  187. Steve240 wrote:

    I am always so baffled that this is so one sided.

    It is ‘written’ into the BF&M 2000 that it is the women (wives) who are obliged to be ‘submissive’ …. so taking this to the max, a whole new theology is built on the belief that ‘one-sided’ is the ideal. But that is NOT Christian marriage. Not even close. Never was.

  188. okrapod wrote:

    About three months ago I injured my neck trying to cut down a holly tree (don’t ask) and I still cannot twist my neck adequately to drive, nor can I sit upright and immobile that long, which is what it would require.

    I am so sorry to hear about your neck injury and pain.

    If you are medically approved, here are some great Stretch & Flex videos done by a local community college here in Silicon Valley, West Valley College. The teacher, Joan, is pleasant, encouraging, and calm. There are 25 videos. Every video should be done at least 2 times, once in the morning and once at night. Or 2 days in a row.

    The videos run about 30 minutes, with 20 minutes of stretching and a 10 minute relaxation period at the end. One of the students has a slight limitation and he has had to do the exercises differently to accommodate his disability.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzPISuhFvkY&list=PLvy0K4S9D5SxGMS-yS8zKH9KBRmfyTdbI

    These videos really help with my flexibility and I took the online course.

  189. Christiane wrote:

    Steve240 wrote:

    I am always so baffled that this is so one sided.

    It is ‘written’ into the BF&M 2000 that it is the women (wives) who are obliged to be ‘submissive’ …. so taking this to the max, a whole new theology is built on the belief that ‘one-sided’ is the ideal. But that is NOT Christian marriage. Not even close. Never was.

    My understanding is that this was basically voted on without the folks voting on it having a chance to read what they were voting on. I am what I refer to as just barely a Southern Baptist but I am convinced the ones that put this into the 2000 BF&M hate women!!

  190. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    This is exactly right. When I was dealing with this the only blog/forum I could find that even discussed any of this stuff was Ingrid Schlueters, Slice of Laodicea. That precious brave woman will have my eternal gratitude.

    Ingrid Schlueter is a personal friend of mine. She’s one of several Christian writers following this absurdity and defending me publicly.

    Ingrid has seen inside the belly of the beast.

    I am grateful to Dee and Deb for stepping up. I know the time and energy it takes to do this and voluntarily! No pay! It can be a 24/7 endeavor just preparing posts and dealing with inquiries.

  191. mot wrote:

    Christiane wrote:

    Steve240 wrote:

    I am always so baffled that this is so one sided.

    It is ‘written’ into the BF&M 2000 that it is the women (wives) who are obliged to be ‘submissive’ …. so taking this to the max, a whole new theology is built on the belief that ‘one-sided’ is the ideal. But that is NOT Christian marriage. Not even close. Never was.

    My understanding is that this was basically voted on without the folks voting on it having a chance to read what they were voting on. I am what I refer to as just barely a Southern Baptist but I am convinced the ones that put this into the 2000 BF&M hate women!!

    And how many people even noticed the “s” Mohler insisted on adding in committee to “priesthood of believer” at the last hour. I saw one article posted online from the Baptist Standard arguing against it from 2000. I shared that article for years. Now can’t find it.

    The added “s” denotes a believer cannot stand alone. They must be in a group (local church) under the authority of Scripture. And guess who gets to be the arbiter of interpretation?

    Never think these guys aren’t clever long term thinkers. Every single action or word from them has been in the effort to seek power and authority over others.

    Now every single issue in the SBC is referred to the BFM by these power mad leaders. Few ever paid attention to it before Mohler.

  192. Lydia wrote:

    Never think these guys aren’t clever long term thinkers. Every single action or word from them has been in the effort to seek power and authority over others.

    So true, Lydia.

    The NeoCalvinists are a hateful group and all they have brought is destruction.

  193. Lydia wrote:

    Ingrid has seen inside the belly of the beast.

    I am not familiar with Ingrid. Could you please tell me about her.

  194. Lydia wrote:

    I am grateful to Dee and Deb for stepping up. I know the time and energy it takes to do this and voluntarily! No pay! It can be a 24/7 endeavor just preparing posts and dealing with inquiries.

    Same here. I am grateful to Dee and Deb. It’s a full-time ministry that these two have.

  195. Lydia wrote:

    mot wrote:

    Christiane wrote:

    Steve240 wrote:

    I am always so baffled that this is so one sided.

    It is ‘written’ into the BF&M 2000 that it is the women (wives) who are obliged to be ‘submissive’ …. so taking this to the max, a whole new theology is built on the belief that ‘one-sided’ is the ideal. But that is NOT Christian marriage. Not even close. Never was.

    My understanding is that this was basically voted on without the folks voting on it having a chance to read what they were voting on. I am what I refer to as just barely a Southern Baptist but I am convinced the ones that put this into the 2000 BF&M hate women!!

    And how many people even noticed the “s” Mohler insisted on adding in committee to “priesthood of believer” at the last hour. I saw one article posted online from the Baptist Standard arguing against it from 2000. I shared that article for years. Now can’t find it.

    The added “s” denotes a believer cannot stand alone. They must be in a group (local church) under the authority of Scripture. And guess who gets to be the arbiter of interpretation?

    Never think these guys aren’t clever long term thinkers. Every single action or word from them has been in the effort to seek power and authority over others.

    Now every single issue in the SBC is referred to the BFM by these power mad leaders. Few ever paid attention to it before Mohler.

    When the takeover of the SBC began in earnest by Pressler and Patterson in 1979 it was about about politics and power. Sadly they achieved their goal but at what cost to the believers in the pews. I do not like to admit it but I have some real anger issues as it relates to what happened to the SBC that I once loved and believed in the goals of reaching the world for Christ.

  196. Velour wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    I am grateful to Dee and Deb for stepping up. I know the time and energy it takes to do this and voluntarily! No pay! It can be a 24/7 endeavor just preparing posts and dealing with inquiries.

    Same here. I am grateful to Dee and Deb. It’s a full-time ministry that these two have.

    Could we even say they are Women Pastors. Take that Southern Baptist Convention.

  197. mot wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Lydia wrote:
    I am grateful to Dee and Deb for stepping up. I know the time and energy it takes to do this and voluntarily! No pay! It can be a 24/7 endeavor just preparing posts and dealing with inquiries.
    Same here. I am grateful to Dee and Deb. It’s a full-time ministry that these two have.
    Could we even say they are Women Pastors. Take that Southern Baptist Convention.

    Yes!

    We will have their ordination ceremony at Camp Backbone in Kentucky with our fearless camp leader Nancy2 in charge of the camp.

    Sincerely,

    Velour, Vice-President of Online Retail,
    Marketing and Consumer Surveys
    at Pound Sand Ministries (TM) [founded right
    here on TWW], proud sponsor of Camp Backbone

  198. Velour wrote:

    mot wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Lydia wrote:
    I am grateful to Dee and Deb for stepping up. I know the time and energy it takes to do this and voluntarily! No pay! It can be a 24/7 endeavor just preparing posts and dealing with inquiries.
    Same here. I am grateful to Dee and Deb. It’s a full-time ministry that these two have.
    Could we even say they are Women Pastors. Take that Southern Baptist Convention.

    Yes!

    We will have their ordination ceremony at Camp Backbone in Kentucky with our fearless camp leader Nancy2 in charge of the camp.

    Sincerely,

    Velour, Vice-President of Online Retail,
    Marketing and Consumer Surveys
    at Pound Sand Ministries (TM) [founded right
    here on TWW], proud sponsor of Camp Backbone

    100% agree! What is sad is the SBC leaders really believe they can stop women from using their God given gifts. Who the heck do they think they are?

  199. Steve240 wrote:

    Isn’t this sad how so many leaders seem to only teach passages of scripture that justify their “authority” but don’t teach what we are to be careful about with leaders? Do these leaders not fear that they might be wrong and one day will have to give an account to God for their actions?

    These leaders may blindside sheeple but God is not fooled, and in time He will put them in their place, as promised in Scripture. Most important is for each believer (women included) to keep their own counsel with God Himself and His Word. Nothing can take the place of God. That would be idolatry. This seems to be lost on the group that is similar to the Shepherding Movement Crowd of times past.

  200. JYJames wrote:

    Steve240 wrote:

    Isn’t this sad how so many leaders seem to only teach passages of scripture that justify their “authority” but don’t teach what we are to be careful about with leaders? Do these leaders not fear that they might be wrong and one day will have to give an account to God for their actions?

    These leaders may blindside sheeple but God is not fooled, and in time He will put them in their place, as promised in Scripture. Most important is for each believer (women included) to keep their own counsel with God Himself and His Word. Nothing can take the place of God. That would be idolatry. This seems to be lost on the group that is similar to the Shepherding Movement Crowd of times past.

    They are a nasty bunch. They have hurt untold number of people by their shenanigans.

  201. mot wrote:

    When the takeover of the SBC began in earnest by Pressler and Patterson in 1979 it was about about politics and power. Sadly they achieved their goal but at what cost to the believers in the pews. I do not like to admit it but I have some real anger issues as it relates to what happened to the SBC that I once loved and believed in the goals of reaching the world for Christ.

    I understand. There was a time when the SBC was what it was historically intended to be – a priesthood of believers and independent congregations united in the goal of evangelism. Today it has become a dark slough of fundamentalism, intent on destroying others en route to its very public, ritualistic suicide. Jesus said, “You will know them by their fruits.” The current crop of leaders in the SBC are some of the most arrogant and harmful false teachers ever. Just the lifestyle alone of men like Mohler or Patterson should be huge red flags to any true Christian.

  202. JYJames wrote:

    These leaders may blindside sheeple but God is not fooled, and in time He will put them in their place, as promised in Scripture.

    May it be soon. This is on the front page of TGC today: http://erlc.com/resource-library/articles/husband-your-wife-will-benefit-from-your-theology. Apparently, all will be well if men just do what Adam was not able to do, as if they’ve discovered something that has eluded mankind since the beginning. Adam’s problem was disobedience, not bad theology. The YRRs seem to think that we will be saved by good theology. Meanwhile they are running the ship aground through the terrible role models they are creating by the bad theology they are foisting on the world.

  203. Absolutely nothing.

    My ex-husband is not a member of the church, never has been – idk if that has anything to do with it. When I went to them initially and explained in some (but not exhaustive) detail the 20-year pattern of verbal/emotional abuse, they initially claimed to believe me and agreed it was abuse. They then started in on the “you’re BOTH going to ‘biblical counseling until he repents, then you’re reconciling.”

    These gentlemen clearly do not understand the mindset of controlling abusive men, or that when one says repeatedly “I’m not going to change; and only gets worse after decades, at some point you take them at their word.

    I submitted an 8-page statement to them, outlining specifics incidents and patterns over the length of the marriage; it was ignored. I reported ongoing gaslighting and intimidation incidents throughout the summer (while we were divorced; we share joint custody). Also ignored. College aged daughter emailed, asking for help (she was now being victimized worse than ever). Minimized. No idea what went on in counseling room, but the abuse was NEVER really dealt with.

    In fact, by the time their emails to me started getting insistent (by the fall), his tricks and entrapment were getting so bad I started bringing a witness with me to the pickups every week. These “pastors”by this time had softened “abuse” to “treatment of you” and “bi-lateral sin”, hand-wringing over my supposed “sinful reaction” to this monstrous behavior.

    And thus, my abuser sits pretty at HBC; will only be protected and enabled by these men; and I am painted as the rebellious shrew. Not on your life. Enough is enough, and I’ve endured enough torment (FIRST from this unstable man!; then from these misguided spiritual leaders) for an entire lifetime. The hypocrisy is mind-boggling.

    =”#comment-301033″ title=”Go to comment of this author”>Steve240 wrote:

    Marie

    I asked this question I on a previous Wartburg Watch post about your situation but don’t think I saw you comment.

    Have your church leaders done anything to your husband or threatened him with church discipline for his actions? I am just curious. These (typically male) leaders always seem to want to “discipline” women for divorcing abusive husbands but you never hear about them disciplining abusive husbands for their actions. Wouldn’t it make as much sense for your husband to be brought before the church for his repeated and hence unrepentant actions? Isn’t it his repeated actions that are causing this to occur?

    Are these church leaders clueless about this cause? If your husband isn’t loving you as God commands (like Christ loved the church as Paul writes about) then isn’t your husband in unrepentant sin?

    I am always so baffled that this is so one sided.

  204. Velour wrote:

    We will have their ordination ceremony at Camp Backbone in Kentucky with our fearless camp leader Nancy2 in charge of the camp.

    The DEEBS have earned their ordinations through study, very hard work, and trial by fire too ……. nor some cheap diploma mill!!!

  205. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    They then started in on the “you’re BOTH going to ‘biblical counseling until he repents, then you’re reconciling.”

    They are incapable of understanding that the kind of “counceling” they offer will only make him worse!

  206. Nancy2 wrote:

    Marie Notcheva wrote:
    They then started in on the “you’re BOTH going to ‘biblical counseling until he repents, then you’re reconciling.”
    They are incapable of understanding that the kind of “counceling” they offer will only make him worse!

    Because they will tell her to submit some more, again, and all will be well! *eyeroll*

    The worst kind of magical thinking here. Also, terrible negotiating skills because of the man knows the end is ‘reconciliation’ no matter what how hard are they going to try? Not very.

  207. Lea wrote:

    Ken F wrote:

    This is on the front page of TGC today: http://erlc.com/resource-library/articles/husband-your-wife-will-benefit-from-your-theology.

    Do these guys even listen to themselves???

    I doubt there has been a marriage saved by ‘theology’.

    Unbelievable, the day after the day we celebrate Christ’s birth which is in the New Testament these sickos go all the way back to Genesis 3-Old Testament to support their evilness. Can they not understand we are not living in the Old Testament days?

  208. Ken F wrote:

    May it be soon. This is on the front page of TGC today: http://erlc.com/resource-library/articles/husband-your-wife-will-benefit-from-your-theology.

    Sheeesh! This is from the Ethics and Religious Liberties Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention! I have a news flash for them: it isn't society at large that makes me feel like I am of little worth —- it's the d@mned churches that push this garbage!

    This article makes it clear that they believe women are foolish, inferior, and beneath men.

  209. YNancy2 wrote:

    Ken F wrote:

    May it be soon. This is on the front page of TGC today: http://erlc.com/resource-library/articles/husband-your-wife-will-benefit-from-your-theology.

    Sheeesh! This is from the Ethics and Religious Liberties Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention! I have a news flash for them: it isn’t society at large that makes me feel like I am of little worth —- it’s th d@mned churches that push this garbage!
    This article makes it clear that they believe women are foolish, inferior, and beneath men.

    Yep! It is the good old Southern Baptist Women hating Convention that is pushing this stinking garbage. Why even one woman remains in the SBC. Women in the SBC please get out of this nonsense and today would be a good day to leave.

  210. Velour wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    Ingrid has seen inside the belly of the beast.

    I am not familiar with Ingrid. Could you please tell me about her.

    I was researching trends in Christendom around 2004-6 to see if what I experienced/witnessed on a grand scale was an abberation or not. I found Slice of Laodicea which discussed some of the bizarre aspects of what I now see as the seeker world of commercial Christianity. Ingrid had a radio show which I admit to only hearing once online.

    I don’t know her at all. Never even had a back channel chat.

    From my perspective back then, She seemed to come from a more reformed bent in those days but as we all know now, the Reformed resurgence fixed nothing. Only made it worse and more authoritarian.

    I was thrilled to find anyone even attempting to approach the issues. Male or female. And my view is strictly from my memory and experience. Ingrid can tell me what I get wrong as a removed reader.

    Ironically, I believe Challies was her web designer but I don’t think it ended well as he became the darling of the blogging Neo Cal resurgence and got too busy for his clients. This was back when he was a nobody. Even before he got his big break blogging reformed conferences and attracting commenters who bragged about their God being glorified as He threw babies into hell. (I had never heard that before–even from the frozen chosen)

    As far as I am concerned, Ingrid is a pioneer when it comes to church ridiculousness and spiritual abuse. She started to pull back the curtain. It’s a dirty job, too.

    We probably disagree on many nuances of doctrine, comp, etc. But in those days she was like Joan of Arc to me. She let me know I was not alone or crazy. :o)

  211. mot wrote:

    I once loved and believed in the goals of reaching the world for Christ.

    DITTO!

    Last year my church was struggling to reach its goal for Lottie Moon Christmas Offering. In early January, my husband and I gave an amount that was one-fourth of the goal.

    Not long after that we began hearing more and more about all those missionaries who were brought home by the IMB, and we are observing how the SBC appears to be obsessed with planting Neo-Cal churches under the leadership of David Platt.

    This year we gave a big fat zero to the Lottie Moon Christmas Offering, and we are done with our support of it. We will use the $$$ we would have given to LM to support missions efforts that my husband and I endorse.

  212. Nancy2 wrote:

    it isn’t society at large that makes me feel like I am of little worth —- it’s th d@mned churches that push this garbage!

    Translation from article: ‘If your wife thinks she has to look and be perfect cause ‘society’ just tell her to think about God. Don’t tell her you love her and think she looks good and is a wonderful person. Just tell her what your theology is and tell her to think about that. Oh, and ignore all the ‘look at my smoking hot wife’ stuff coming from the pulpit because that’s unrelated’.

  213. mot wrote:

    the takeover of the SBC began in earnest by Pressler and Patterson in 1979

    And Al Mohler finished it off in recent years!

  214. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    There was a time when the SBC was what it was historically intended to be – a priesthood of believers and independent congregations united in the goal of evangelism.

    As a 60+ year Southern Baptist, I was privileged to be a part of this once-great denomination when it took the true Gospel to dark corners of the globe, with an evangelistic outreach to ALL people. Long-held Baptist doctrines of priesthood of THE believer and soul competency have now been diminished in SBC life. With the New Calvinist takeover and its predestined-elect watered down “evangelism” and mission programs, another gospel now characterizes many SBC churches. And as we can see, the fruit of reformed pastor training at SBC seminaries is now manifesting itself at places like Heritage Bible Chapel.

  215. @ okrapod:
    So sorry about your injury. I was joking about Henry. The history of the founding of state churches is often brutal.

    The Episcopal Cathedral was beautiful. And while I can’t wrap my head around sacraments as a means of grace, I participated. The music was incredible. It always is when we have gone there. Like my upbringing, they take their music seriously. And a pipe organ! I was in heaven. Lots of Scripture passages from Isaiah to Luke. The homily was a short talk with the children using carved figures of Bethlehem. The Right Rev was female. I don’t get the big deal there at all. It is not the gender, it is truth that matters.

    And frankly, it was nice to have children in the service. So few churches do that today. They were very well behaved. Maybe, like me at their age, they knew better than to be anything else during service. :o)

  216. Max wrote:

    And as we can see, the fruit of reformed pastor training at SBC seminaries is now manifesting itself at places like Heritage Bible Chapel.

    AMEN!

  217. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    I submitted an 8-page statement to them, outlining specifics incidents and patterns over the length of the marriage; it was ignored.

    It is this sort of thing that blows my mind. The hoops you jumped through thinking they were seriously interested and cared. They never had any intention of seeing your side of things. They did not care. They only cared about exercising their “authority”. They had you where they wanted you: jumping through hoops. Thinking they were fair and just.

    These are the deceivers and manipulators. Better if they come right out with their true intentions. It would be more honest. You could cut your losses earlier and move on.

  218. Lea wrote:

    The worst kind of magical thinking here. Also, terrible negotiating skills because of the man knows the end is ‘reconciliation’ no matter what how hard are they going to try? Not very.

    Two things here.

    1. The magical thinking is rooting in both Ephesian 5 being held up as the ‘trouble shooting, all-fixing, Christian fairy dust, marriage manual AND the false notion that it takes two to tango.
    It may take two to tango. But it only takes ONE to destroy a marriage.

    2. Driscoll said he’d take one for the team and publicly chided a pastor’s wife for ‘letting herself go’ because she knew divorce was not an option.
    Where are the preachers chiding men for taking advantage of the divorce-is-not-an-option clause and using it against their wives to abuse them?
    Nothing but crickets on this issue. Guess these men will only take one for the he-man, woman-haters club team.

  219. Deb wrote:

    mot wrote:

    I once loved and believed in the goals of reaching the world for Christ.

    DITTO!

    Last year my church was struggling to reach its goal for Lottie Moon Christmas Offering. In early January, my husband and I gave an amount that was one-fourth of the goal.

    Not long after that we began hearing more and more about all those missionaries who were brought home by the IMB, and we are observing how the SBC appears to be obsessed with planting Neo-Cal churches under the leadership of David Platt.

    This year we gave a big fat zero to the Lottie Moon Christmas Offering, and we are done with our support of it. We will use the $$$ we would have given to LM to support missions efforts that my husband and I endorse.

    I am a pastor of a SBC church and I gave $25 and would not have given that had I not been the pastor. I do not believe in SB mission efforts any more. It truly saddens my heart.

  220. Lydia wrote:

    These are the deceivers and manipulators.

    Not leaders, unless one qualifies the Pied Piper as a “leader”.

  221. Max wrote:

    mot wrote:

    the takeover of the SBC began in earnest by Pressler and Patterson in 1979

    And Al Mohler finished it off in recent years!

    Max, you are exactly right. Mohler was a very young man when he was put in his position at Southern and he sure has cloned himself to many places besides Southern.

  222. Deb wrote:

    Lottie Moon Christmas Offering

    As a long-time Southern Baptist, I am now saddened when I see Lottie Moon Christmas Offering envelopes in the pew. The SBC foreign mission program is no longer focused on taking the Gospel to ALL people; evangelism is not the same since the New Calvinists have taken over. I am equally saddened about the direction of funds via the Annie Armstrong Easter Offering … the bulk of that money ($60 million this year) has been used in a New Calvinist church planting program to provide jobs for YRR seminary graduates. Planting churches on home and foreign fields is now more about planting reformed theology, than Gospel churches.

  223. Oh, wow! I just noticed the info note in the header above the title. Local news media interested in publishing Marie’s story. It would be nice if the shenanigan’s of these “holy men” get some local exposure that will strip the veneer off of them!

  224. Max wrote:

    Deb wrote:

    Lottie Moon Christmas Offering

    As a long-time Southern Baptist, I am now saddened when I see Lottie Moon Christmas Offering envelopes in the pew. The SBC foreign mission program is no longer focused on taking the Gospel to ALL people; evangelism is not the same since the New Calvinists have taken over. I am equally saddened about the direction of funds via the Annie Armstrong Easter Offering … the bulk of that money ($60 million this year) has been used in a New Calvinist church planting program to provide jobs for YRR seminary graduates. Planting churches on home and foreign fields is now more about planting reformed theology, than Gospel churches.

    Max, you have mentioned this before, but the pastors of Southern Baptist churches do not tell the folks in the pews that their missionary dollars are being used for planting reformed churches. It is beyond deceitful.

  225. Nancy2 wrote:

    Oh, wow! I just noticed the info note in the header above the title. Local news media interested in publishing Marie’s story. It would be nice if the shenanigan’s of these “holy men” get some local exposure that will strip the veneer off of them!

    Nancy2, it would be great to see them eat some humble pie and expose more people to what these snakes are doing.

  226. From the IMB site:”Starting in 1888, the Lottie Moon Christmas Offering® was established to empower the international missions efforts for Southern Baptists. After more than a century, the annual offering continues its steady growth. The National Goal this year is $155 Million. Your giving enables missionaries to be sent to make disciples and multiply churches among unreached peoples and places for the glory of God.” And how much of that $155 million dollars is wasted?

  227. Nancy2 wrote:

    Local news media interested in publishing Marie’s story.

    I am extremely please about this development. As one editor told me “Anyone would love to take on this story.” He also said that Marie is an excellent writer.

  228. “That 4 page letter is a real dog. One news editor asked me if it was actually real. I reassured him it was.”

    I know, right? That four page letter is so far out there it is unbelievable.
    I am so happy about this development.

  229. Ken F wrote:

    Like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RJBd8zE48A

    Someone asked me to go check out the new Hillsong franchise in Mesa, AZ last February. OMG. It was noisy. And I like metal. But it was so noisy. It was so noisy that when my phone rang during the sermon, I could not hear the ringer. I only knew it was ringing because I was holding it in my hand. Oh yeah, and the room was dark and had 2000 people in it. *shakes head* It was weird.

  230. mot wrote:

    pastors of Southern Baptist churches do not tell the folks in the pews that their missionary dollars are being used for planting reformed churches

    The window is now closed for pastors at 45,000+ SBC churches to have “family talks” about the proliferation of New Calvinism in SBC entities. Calvinization of the denomination through its mission programs, seminaries and publishing house has largely been accomplished … and the pew still ain’t got a clue! SBC life as we have known it (non-Calvinist) will only be held at bay now through the autonomy of individual churches to keep reformed theology out of traditional Gospel pulpits – unless the New Calvinists lie and deceive their way into more of them, as has been occurring.

  231. Mara wrote:

    Where are the preachers chiding men for taking advantage of the divorce-is-not-an-option clause and using it against their wives to abuse them?
    Nothing but crickets on this issue.

    And, what?? Men have never let themselves go . . .

    I guess men can let themselves go, but not women. Women must keep themselves up to please their man . . . sickening.

  232. @ mot:
    Lottie Moon Christmas Offering and Annie Armstrong Easter Offering – wondering when the SBC will remove the names of these two incredible female missionaries…

    Can you imagine how much the Southern Baptist Convention (missions and otherwise) could have grown over the last 30+ years if they hadn’t marginalized their female members?

  233. Max wrote:

    mot wrote:

    pastors of Southern Baptist churches do not tell the folks in the pews that their missionary dollars are being used for planting reformed churches

    The window is now closed for pastors at 45,000+ SBC churches to have “family talks” about the proliferation of New Calvinism in SBC entities. Calvinization of the denomination through its mission programs, seminaries and publishing house has largely been accomplished … and the pew still ain’t got a clue! SBC life as we have known it (non-Calvinist) will only be held at bay now through the autonomy of individual churches to keep reformed theology out of traditional Gospel pulpits – unless the New Calvinists lie and deceive their way into more of them, as has been occurring.

    So sad on so many levels. I am afraid the Calvinization os the SBC is complete and the non-calvinist never so it coming.

  234. Deb wrote:

    @ mot:
    Lottie Moon Christmas Offering and Annie Armstrong Easter Offering – wondering when the SBC will remove the names of these two incredible female missionaries…

    Can you imagine how much the Southern Baptist Convention (missions and otherwise) could have grown over the last 30+ years if they hadn’t marginalized their female members?

    I suggest they Change it to the Lot Moon and Dan Armstrong offerings. Surely it is a sin to be raising money in the name of two great Southern Baptist Women Pastors. Wink-Wink,

    And yes more money could have been easily raised for missionaries had they not marginalized their female members or run off the ‘liberal” members.

  235. Bridget wrote:

    Women must keep themselves up to please their man . . .

    It’s all about pleasing the man. When only men are allowed to preach and teach, make the rules, and determine what God’s will is, this is what you get. When women aren’t allowed to balance things out, aren’t allowed to be the strong help God made them to be, things get all wonky like this in these groups.

  236. Mara wrote:

    2. Driscoll said he’d take one for the team and publicly chided a pastor’s wife for ‘letting herself go’ because she knew divorce was not an option.

    That was how Driscoll first came to my attention. The woman was Gayle Haggard, wife of Ted, and you can look up on Wikipedia to find out what happened to Ted. I was so infuriated with Driscoll I dropped him a nastygram. Of course I didn’t hear back from him. But he was so very, very wrong to have called out Gayle Haggard like that. Of course it wasn’t her fault that Ted went and did what he did.

  237. Mara wrote:

    Where are the preachers chiding men for taking advantage of the divorce-is-not-an-option clause and using it against their wives to abuse them?

    Because that’s a Feature, not a Bug.

  238. Bridget wrote:

    Women must keep themselves up to please their man . . .

    Just like in PORN, where the women are all Smokin Hawt, all the time.

    Is it just me, or does what these Manly Manly Men expect of their wimmen sound like standard pornography tropes with a Biblical(TM) coat of paint?

  239. Deb wrote:

    Lottie Moon Christmas Offering and Annie Armstrong Easter Offering – wondering when the SBC will remove the names of these two incredible female missionaries…

    They will be replaced by the Paige Patterson Christmas Offering and the John Piper Easter Offering.

    “Syerge Syoot here —
    Come Rewolution,
    Christmas Day will become Lenin Day,
    Boxing Day will become Brezhnev Day,
    And New Year’s Day will become Doris Day.”
    — Kenny Everett Video Show

  240. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes & mirele wrote:

    Ken F wrote:

    Like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RJBd8zE48A

    Someone asked me to go check out the new Hillsong franchise in Mesa, AZ last February. OMG. It was noisy. And I like metal. But it was so noisy. It was so noisy that when my phone rang during the sermon, I could not hear the ringer. I only knew it was ringing because I was holding it in my hand. Oh yeah, and the room was dark and had 2000 people in it. *shakes head* It was weird.

    You were at a Rave.
    Were they passing out Ecstasy for Communion?

  241. Lydia wrote:

    It is this sort of thing that blows my mind. The hoops you jumped through thinking they were seriously interested and cared. They never had any intention of seeing your side of things. They did not care. They only cared about exercising their “authority”. They had you where they wanted you: jumping through hoops.

    “DANCE, MONKEY! DANCE!”

    Thinking they were fair and just.

    You just flashed me on a cartoon by a small-time underground cartoonist from maybe 30 years ago:

    A portrait of Heinrich Himmler, Reichsfuehrer-SS, with a thought balloon saying:
    “It is hard being so Good und Just…”

  242. Lydia wrote:

    The Episcopal Cathedral was beautiful. And while I can’t wrap my head around sacraments as a means of grace, I participated. The music was incredible. It always is when we have gone there. Like my upbringing, they take their music seriously. And a pipe organ! I was in heaven. Lots of Scripture passages from Isaiah to Luke. The homily was a short talk with the children using carved figures of Bethlehem.

    What you describe is a standard Western Rite Christmas Liturgy.

  243. Lea wrote:

    Translation from article:
    “…Don’t tell her you love her and think she looks good and is a wonderful person. Just tell her what your theology is and tell her to think about that.”

    Purity of Ideology, Comrades.
    Purity of Ideology.

  244. Ken F wrote:

    The YRRs seem to think that we will be saved by good theology. Meanwhile they are running the ship aground through the terrible role models they are creating by the bad theology they are foisting on the world.

    Pure and Correct Ideology Can Never Be Wrong, Comrades.

    Reality must bow before Correct Ideology.

  245. Ken F wrote:

    The speaker at the HBC women’s conference in May will be Janet Surette. Here is a link to Janet’s church: http://southshorebible.org/about-us/what-we-believe/. This church has something for everyone to love: reformed baptist, complementarian (Danvers Statement on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood is in the church constitution), “Biblical” counseling, young earth creationism (YEC is in their constitution), membership covenants, church discipline. From their constitution: “All who come into membership are expected to recognize and submit to the authority of the overseers of the church (1 Corinthians16:15,16; 1 Thessalonians5:12, 13; Hebrews13:17). This responsibility will include willingly scheduling oversight meetings with Elders.”

    How did you find the church constitution? You are better than me. Can you show me the link? I have scoured the website a gazillion times.

  246. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    You were at a Rave.
    Were they passing out Ecstasy for Communion?

    No, man, I wasn’t at a rave. The music would have been better, for one thing. Seriously, sound technicians at a rave or a metal concert know better how to handle sound. Plus their music wasn’t seriously tuneless, like the Hillsong stuff was.

  247. Nancy2 wrote:

    This article makes it clear that they believe women are foolish, inferior, and beneath men.

    Yes….and using flowery, meaningless imagery to prove how much she needs him (since she evidently can’t think clearly about theology….)

    ….husbands who are thinking clearly about theology will have a unique ability to point their brides to the splendor and comfort of the Rock of Ages

    Ugh!

  248. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    GMFS
    I couldn’t think of anything uplifting or even slightly funny to say this morning, so I’ll stick with this from Proverbs 17:
    Even a fool, when he keeps silent, is considered wise…

    OMgoodness, I almost laughed out loud in Starbucks. Thank you, Nick!

  249. Lydia wrote:

    I am grateful to Dee and Deb for stepping up. I know the time and energy it takes to do this and voluntarily! No pay! It can be a 24/7 endeavor just preparing posts and dealing with inquiries.

    Amen! God bless the Deebs. ❤️

  250. Victorious wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:

    This article makes it clear that they believe women are foolish, inferior, and beneath men.

    Yes….and using flowery, meaningless imagery to prove how much she needs him (since she evidently can’t think clearly about theology….)

    ….husbands who are thinking clearly about theology will have a unique ability to point their brides to the splendor and comfort of the Rock of Ages

    Ugh!

    Guys, that write articles like this one must have a very warped view of women. But they will receive platitudes for such nonsense.

  251. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    Absolutely nothing.
    My ex-husband is not a member of the church, never has been – idk if that has anything to do with it. When I went to them initially and explained in some (but not exhaustive) detail the 20-year pattern of verbal/emotional abuse, they initially claimed to believe me and agreed it was abuse. They then started in on the “you’re BOTH going to ‘biblical counseling until he repents, then you’re reconciling.”
    These gentlemen clearly do not understand the mindset of controlling abusive men, or that when one says repeatedly “I’m not going to change; and only gets worse after decades, at some point you take them at their word.
    I submitted an 8-page statement to them, outlining specifics incidents and patterns over the length of the marriage; it was ignored. I reported ongoing gaslighting and intimidation incidents throughout the summer (while we were divorced; we share joint custody). Also ignored. College aged daughter emailed, asking for help (she was now being victimized worse than ever). Minimized. No idea what went on in counseling room, but the abuse was NEVER really dealt with.

    Marie

    This is quite significant that your husband who you plan to divorce. It would be one thing if he was supposedly a believer and was in counsel with the church then pushing for reconciliation would be more justified to a point.

    If your husband isn’t a believer and basically unrepentant here then why are they pushing you to stay married.

  252. @ Marie Notcheva:
    Marie, my admiration for you continues to grow. You are a role model for other women who are in similar situations to yours (and, yes, men who are as well).

  253. Nancy2 wrote:

    This is from the Ethics and Religious Liberties Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention! … This article makes it clear that they believe women are foolish, inferior, and beneath men.

    Not surprising that this is promoted by ERLC. Russell Moore, ERLC President, is a leading New Calvinist … former right-hand man to Al Mohler.

  254. mot wrote:

    Deb wrote:
    mot wrote:
    I once loved and believed in the goals of reaching the world for Christ.
    DITTO!
    Last year my church was struggling to reach its goal for Lottie Moon Christmas Offering. In early January, my husband and I gave an amount that was one-fourth of the goal.
    Not long after that we began hearing more and more about all those missionaries who were brought home by the IMB, and we are observing how the SBC appears to be obsessed with planting Neo-Cal churches under the leadership of David Platt.
    This year we gave a big fat zero to the Lottie Moon Christmas Offering, and we are done with our support of it. We will use the $$$ we would have given to LM to support missions efforts that my husband and I endorse.
    I am a pastor of a SBC church and I gave $25 and would not have given that had I not been the pastor. I do not believe in SB mission efforts any more. It truly saddens my heart.

    Was at a SBC Church for Christmas services, and they were having trouble reaching The Lottie Moon goal. I know my mother and dad would donate to the fund in the past. Now, my widowed mother gives nothing….and there are many just like her.

  255. Lydia wrote:

    The music was incredible. It always is when we have gone there. Like my upbringing, they take their music seriously. And a pipe organ! I was in heaven.

    This would make me seriously consider a church…

  256. Max wrote:

    Deb wrote:
    Lottie Moon Christmas Offering
    As a long-time Southern Baptist, I am now saddened when I see Lottie Moon Christmas Offering envelopes in the pew. The SBC foreign mission program is no longer focused on taking the Gospel to ALL people; evangelism is not the same since the New Calvinists have taken over. I am equally saddened about the direction of funds via the Annie Armstrong Easter Offering … the bulk of that money ($60 million this year) has been used in a New Calvinist church planting program to provide jobs for YRR seminary graduates. Planting churches on home and foreign fields is now more about planting reformed theology, than Gospel churches.

    And meanwhile the denomination loses 200,000 members a year. At some point, the money will end, THEN what will happen?

  257. Debi Calvet wrote:

    Even a fool, when he keeps silent, is considered wise (Prov 17)

    Abraham Lincoln had this passage in mind when he said “Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.”

    We seem to have an epidemic of fools running their mouths off these days. It’s sad to see them in so many pulpits!

  258. Debi Calvet wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    The music was incredible. It always is when we have gone there. Like my upbringing, they take their music seriously. And a pipe organ! I was in heaven.

    This would make me seriously consider a church…

    I have a mental image of a vast church organ dump site. Where did they all go? :o)

  259. @ Max:
    Of course, I didn’t write that. (I’m just not that clever.) Our illustrious and hilarious Nick Bulbeck did.

    But you are so right, Max. 🙁

  260. K.D. wrote:

    Was at a SBC Church for Christmas services, and they were having trouble reaching The Lottie Moon goal. I

    SBC leadership has chastised Southern Baptists for not giving, as they once did, to support foreign and home missions. Perhaps the pew is getting wise to the scheme of reformed leaders at those agencies to use funds to Calvinize rather than evangelize.

  261. mot wrote:

    Victorious wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:

    This article makes it clear that they believe women are foolish, inferior, and beneath men.

    Yes….and using flowery, meaningless imagery to prove how much she needs him (since she evidently can’t think clearly about theology….)

    ….husbands who are thinking clearly about theology will have a unique ability to point their brides to the splendor and comfort of the Rock of Ages

    Ugh!

    Guys, that write articles like this one must have a very warped view of women. But they will receive platitudes for such nonsense.

    I think they have a warped view of themselves. Insecure. They need someone to praise them for wearing their big boy pants.

  262. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes & mirele wrote:

    But he was so very, very wrong to have called out Gayle Haggard like that. Of course it wasn’t her fault

    But the gospel he promotes, and the one promoted by TGC article people are commenting about here, and the one promoted by Marie’s former pastors, that gospel makes everything the woman’s fault. No matter what the man does, no matter what, somehow the woman is to blame at the very root. Always.

    And Driscoll, TGC, and Marie’s former pastors are hellbent on promoting this gospel. How else are they going to get a free pass on everything they do?

  263. Ken F wrote:

    The link is at the top of the “What we Believe” page. Here is the link: http://southshorebible.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/SBC-Constitution-Revised-5-05-2015-1.pdf?x86148. I downloaded it and sent it to you by email just now in case they pull it.

    Did you see this statement in their constitution?
    ***”No member shall have the right to inspect the church records as to: (i) the disciplining of any members, (ii) the hiring or firing of any employee, (iii) the need or problems of any member or employee, (iv) the financial contributions of any member, or (v) any other records which the council of Elders may determine to be kept confidential in the best interests of the church.”***
    There is another statement about election that makes it clear that the church is Calvinist.

  264. Nancy2 wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    We will have their ordination ceremony at Camp Backbone in Kentucky with our fearless camp leader Nancy2 in charge of the camp.
    The DEEBS have earned their ordinations through study, very hard work, and trial by fire too ……. nor some cheap diploma mill!!!

    Exactly, Nancy2!

    And they have been baptized with tears shed into their pillows over the many sorrows that are shared with them.

  265. Ken F wrote:

    The whole constitution is a mess.

    I call it selling your soul to the Devil, and the Devil gets a contract to prove it.

  266. @ Ken F:
    You are not Kidding! I am constantly amazed at their analogies. But how strange to think such actresses are filling the Neo Reformed pews. It gets better. These actresses have signed membership covenants! I can’t wait to see the movie special on their church discipline! Challies writes:

    “Like you, she has taken a membership covenant that says something like this: “We will seek, by Divine aid, to live carefully in the world, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts”1, or “We engage to walk circumspectly in the world and to be exemplary in our deportment,”2 or “I will practice complete chastity unless married and, if married, complete fidelity within heterosexual and monogamous marriage.”3 Membership in your church requires some kind of covenantal commitment to live in ways that are fitting for Christians and to refuse to live in ways that are not. And of course, the covenant says that those who give themselves over to sin and refuse to repent will, in due course, be removed from membership.”

  267. @ Nancy2:
    The SBC still has a lock box of secret minutes from meetings of a committee planning future strategy. The lock box was set for 15 years. I think the meetings took place about 5-6 years ago. I can’t believe donors put up with this stuff.

  268. Ken F wrote:

    The whole constitution is a mess.

    That’s putting it mildly….UGH! Can you imagine Jesus or Paul putting that document in front of the early converts? Here is the three qualifiers for those…

    Act 15:19  “Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 
    Act 15:20  but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.

     

  269. Off-topic announcement.

    The Christian organization Give Her Wings which provides tangible support for domestic violence victims who’ve left is raising funds right now to support two of their clients/Mamas. Christian counselor Leslie Vernick will match the donations up to $3000.
    This will pay for rent and other basics.

    Natalie, the woman Marie wrote about who has also been treated horribly by John Piper’s Bethlehem Baptist church and is being excommunicated for leaving an abusive husband, has Apple Valley Natural Soaps has donated $1000 worth of personal care items/soaps from her business to the Mamas.

    If any of you would like to support this Christian domestic violence ministry, please consider them in your year-end giving.

    http://giveherwings.com/donate/

  270. Lydia wrote:

    As far as I am concerned, Ingrid is a pioneer when it comes to church ridiculousness and spiritual abuse. She started to pull back the curtain. It’s a dirty job, too.
    We probably disagree on many nuances of doctrine, comp, etc. But in those days she was like Joan of Arc to me. She let me know I was not alone or crazy. :o)

    Thanks, Lydia, for letting me know about Ingrid’s work.

  271. Lydia wrote:

    BC still has a lock box of secret minutes from meetings of a committee planning future strategy. The lock box was set for 15 years. I think the meetings took place about 5-6 years ago. I can’t believe donors put up with this stuff.

    I’ve been a member of SBC churches since 1978, and I was not aware of that until I found TWW!

  272. Lydia wrote:

    The SBC still has a lock box of secret minutes from meetings of a committee planning future strategy.

    Yep, SBC’s Great Commission Resurgence Task Force sealed the minutes of their closed-door meeting for 15 years! Perhaps, that sealed record doesn’t have anything to do with the Great Commission Resurgence, but strategic plans for a Calvinist Resurgence? I can’t imagine what would be in that document that would demand keeping it secret from millions of Southern Baptists. And why 15 years? Perhaps that’s how long the movers & shakers expected SBC Calvinization to take? Oh, I guess I’m just holding to conspiracy theories … but I wouldn’t be doing that if the New Calvinists would stop giving us so much evidence to support them!

    For folks just now tuning into this blog piece and wondering what the SBC has to do with the topic at hand, it should be noted that HBC pastors received their how-to training at SBC seminaries. The SBC is producing a generation of reformed leaders who are running rough-shod over the American church in the New Calvinist movement … so the denomination keeps popping up in these blog threads as a leading source for the misery being experienced by church members.

  273. mot wrote:

    And

    I wonder how much is spent jet setting the “radical” Platt around to dangerous undisclosed locations in the ME like the Dubai Marriott so he can tell his US audience how brave he is for the Gospel.

  274. Lydia wrote:

    I am constantly amazed at their analogies.

    They are perveted. I read some of the article to my wife just now. Her words: “They are turning Christianity into a rape culture. They are sex obsessed.”

  275. Ken F wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    Ironically, I believe Challies was her web designer but I don’t think it ended well as he became the darling of the blogging Neo Cal resurgence and got too busy for his clients.

    Speaking of Challies, here is his post for today: http://www.challies.com/articles/sex-on-the-silver-screen-outsourcing-depravity. This is weird beyond words.

    Sexy shabbos goy on the silver screen? Azoy, Tim Challies? Azoy? Nu? NU?

    Narishkeit!

    Oy…I am farklempt.

  276. Lydia wrote:

    But how strange to think such actresses are filling the Neo Reformed pews.

    The scenario he describes might describe no more than about one person in a million. Alternatively, if this analogy is common enough for Challies to make it an example, there is a YUGE problem within the reformed branch of Christianity. Challies should be excommunicated for this.

  277. Max wrote:

    the bulk of that money ($60 million this year) has been used in a New Calvinist church planting program to provide jobs for YRR seminary graduates. Planting churches on home and foreign fields is now more about planting reformed theology, than Gospel churches.

    OK, so I have a question. This money is intended for missionary efforts (whether here or overseas), but my question is, do these neo-Calvinist Baptists even *proselytize*? It’s my understanding that they don’t believe in “whosoever will” be saved but only in those that God has elected can be saved. What kind of proselytizing do neo-Cal Baptists do? Or is it just sheep stealing?

  278. Max wrote:

    K.D. wrote:

    Was at a SBC Church for Christmas services, and they were having trouble reaching The Lottie Moon goal. I

    SBC leadership has chastised Southern Baptists for not giving, as they once did, to support foreign and home missions. Perhaps the pew is getting wise to the scheme of reformed leaders at those agencies to use funds to Calvinize rather than evangelize.

    The Southern Baptist people are not abandoning the missions by not giving to Lottie and Annie. They are not giving because they are waking up to the neo-Cal invasion.

    I see this as a good sign, not as people abandoning the work of the Church to carry Christ into the mission fields.

    If and when (and I hope it’s the latter) the SBC is freed of the neo-Cal curse, I think Lottie and Annie will once more take a place in the hearts of the people as a way to express their love for Christ.

    I cannot believe the depth of the misogyny present in neo-Cal and patriarchal churches, but I do know that funds given to Lottie and Annie should NEVER be used to support that kind of contempt for the dignity of Christian women, especially as the reasons why those funds are given is to honor the work of Christ done through the efforts of those two women of blessed memory.
    Those falling contributions … an indictment against the neo-Cal abuses, not an abandonment of the missions.

    Maybe the neo-Cals will get the me$$age. ?

  279. If I were still a Southern Baptist I would absolutely not contribute to either the international missions offering (Lottie Moon) or the home missions offering (Annie Armstrong) under the current circumstances. But I thought that the SBC was encouraging individual churches to directly fund their own missions projects. Did they give up that idea? Now, I might contribute to that depending on what it was.

    SBC has been needing to take a better look at missions for a long time. FWIW I ran into missionaries on the field who thought that way back in the 50s; way past time for some changes.

  280. okrapod wrote:

    I thought that the SBC was encouraging individual churches to directly fund their own missions projects

    Well, the interesting thing about that is that many SBC church plants (primarily New Calvinist) directly fund their own mission efforts and don’t contribute much, if anything, to SBC’s Cooperative Program (CP) … after themselves enjoying SBC church planting funds given by non-Calvinist Southern Baptists via the CP! The whole system is a mess right now, with New Calvinists taking advantage of the faithful giving of millions of non-Calvinists who don’t yet realize what is going on.

  281. okrapod wrote:

    Did they give up that idea? Now, I might contribute to that depending on what it was.

    Most SBC churches still give a certain percent of the tithes and offerings to the Cooperative Program, most of which goes to the NAMB as well as the IMB.

  282. Lydia wrote:

    You are not Kidding! I am constantly amazed at their analogies. But how strange to think such actresses are filling the Neo Reformed pews. It gets better. These actresses have signed membership covenants! I can’t wait to see the movie special on their church discipline!

    I noticed that his sinful fictional character was a woman. He never mentioned the sinful fictional man.

  283. mot wrote:

    Steve240 wrote:
    Isn’t this sad how so many leaders seem to only teach passages of scripture that justify their “authority” but don’t teach what we are to be careful about with leaders? Do these leaders not fear that they might be wrong and one day will have to give an account to God for their actions?
    These leaders may blindside sheeple but God is not fooled, and in time He will put them in their place, as promised in Scripture. Most important is for each believer (women included) to keep their own counsel with God Himself and His Word. Nothing can take the place of God. That would be idolatry. This seems to be lost on the group that is similar to the Shepherding Movement Crowd of times past.

    Just for the record I only wrote the top paragraph and not the bottom one.

  284. Nancy2 wrote:

    I noticed that his sinful fictional character was a woman. He never mentioned the sinful fictional man.

    Very Biblical(TM) – John 8

  285. In the ongoing struggle of two different thinking methodologies, and in the increasing difficulty I face in trying to get my children to realize that I am neither demented nor a surviving specimen from a prior geologic age, young son put a mug in my stocking from Mast General Store. The mug, though pottery, looks like old timey enamel cookware/tableware and it is inscribed “Let’s Just Assume I’m Right and Move On.” I love it. It is soooo me.

  286. Max wrote:

    Christiane wrote:

    Maybe the neo-Cals will get the me$$age. ?

    Maybe, but right now they are enjoying the money.

    well, their ‘take’ dwindles as we speak ….. when the money stops trickling in, someone among them may wake up or maybe they just don’t give a bamn

  287. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes & mirele wrote:

    do these neo-Calvinist Baptists even *proselytize*?

    New Calvinists view their “preaching” as attempts to harvest the predestined elect, rather than reach lost souls. If you are not among the predestined chosen, you will never understand their sermons … only the elect get it and will hear it when they come near it. Their rendering of John 3:16-18 would read something like:

    “For God so loved the elect, that he gave his only Son, that whoever was arbitrarily chosen by God to believe in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the non-elect – they had been condemned already, but in order that the elect would definitely be saved through their prior election, as evidenced by their irresistibly caused faith in him. Whoever was arbitrarily chosen for salvation is not condemned, but whoever was arbitrarily chosen for eternal damnation is condemned already, because he has been condemned to this since before the world began.”

    While written as satire, there is a lot of truth to this type of “evangelism” in New Calvinism. http://evangelicalarminians.org/introducing-the-new-calvinist-bible-satire/

  288. @ Max:
    Didn’t give to the Annie Armstrong Easter Offering this year either because I’m not interested in advancing the NAMB’s Neo-Cal agenda. Mohler was so excited when his pastor was appointed head of the NAMB. I still remember his Tweet about it.

  289. @ Nancy2:

    This is slowly resolving. I am at the position now that I can drive if and only if I do not have to look to the right. I can twist to the left well enough. So, I have a couple of paths through town that require only right turns (so obviously no cars coming from the right) or else a light at an intersection with a protected left. I pick up the kids from school, turn right onto the parkway, take a right off the parkway, turn left on a protected turn into our residential area and do all this with a child in each rear seat watching out for cars for me. It is basically crazy. I am doing range of motion exercises to the limits of pain, which mean I can basically roll by eyes around while humming the national anthem. My doctor informed me that there is something new out there for this condition; they are called young men and they can be hired to trim trees and dig holes and not to worry because I could still stand there and try to tell them every move to make. Maybe I will try that.

  290. Deb wrote:

    Mohler was so excited when his pastor was appointed head of the NAMB.

    Yeah, think about it … out of 16 million Southern Baptists, Al Mohler’s pastor (Kevin Ezell) was chosen to head the North American Mission Board! Out of that immense mass of humanity, Ezell to the top as THE man to lead SBC’s home mission agency without any prior SBC national leadership experience! What a coincidence … do reckon Al had anything to do with that? And they tell us to stop with the conspiracy theories?!

  291. Nancy2 wrote:

    @ okrapod:
    okrapod, are you feeling any better today?
    I hope you are!

    Okrapod,

    Yes, are you feeling any better? I put some gentle stretching videos, taught by a wonderful community college instructor Joan in California at West Valley College, for you up the thread. I also posted the link at the top of the page under the Interesting tab, the Books/Movies/TV/ETC. tab.

    The videos — 25 of them (each should be done at least twice and there are stretches to improve neck flexibility) — can be found on youtube “West Valley College Stretch and Flex class”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzPISuhFvkY&list=PLvy0K4S9D5SxGMS-yS8zKH9KBRmfyTdbI

  292. Nancy2 wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    You are not Kidding! I am constantly amazed at their analogies. But how strange to think such actresses are filling the Neo Reformed pews. It gets better. These actresses have signed membership covenants! I can’t wait to see the movie special on their church discipline!
    I noticed that his sinful fictional character was a woman. He never mentioned the sinful fictional man.

    Hopefully it will be as good as Leah Remini’s A&E expose on Scientology! Scientology thinks we’re such dolts that they play counter commercials now in all of the other youtube videos. They have mistaken us for their obedient cult members. They do protest too much.

  293. @ Velour:

    Thanks, I will check that out. For right now, however, I am going to stick with the regime I am on. Docs (as in physicians who treat me) do not like it much if patients come in and say they are not doing what they were told to do and rather have taken their treatments into their own hands. The old saying is that the doctor who treats himself has a fool for a patient and a fool for a doctor. The last thing I need is for the guys who treat me to get fed up with me on this or anything else.

    Anyhow, I will check it out, so thanks for the link.

  294. okrapod wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Thanks, I will check that out. For right now, however, I am going to stick with the regime I am on. Docs (as in physicians who treat me) do not like it much if patients come in and say they are not doing what they were told to do and rather have taken their treatments into their own hands. The old saying is that the doctor who treats himself has a fool for a patient and a fool for a doctor. The last thing I need is for the guys who treat me to get fed up with me on this or anything else.
    Anyhow, I will check it out, so thanks for the link.

    Oh, I am glad you have a doctor supervising your care.

    I and the other Wartburgers are praying for your healing.

  295. Nancy2 wrote:

    Did you see this statement in their constitution?
    ***”No member shall have the right to inspect the church records as to: (i) the disciplining of any members, (ii) the hiring or firing of any employee, (iii) the need or problems of any member or employee, (iv) the financial contributions of any member, or (v) any other records which the council of Elders may determine to be kept confidential in the best interests of the church.”***

    And there you have it in black and white; the organization’s best interests is what it’s all about.

  296. Ken F wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    I am constantly amazed at their analogies.

    They are perveted. I read some of the article to my wife just now. Her words: “They are turning Christianity into a rape culture. They are sex obsessed.”

    They really are! I remember the grandmother of one my kids classmates in Elementary school telling me the saga of Ezell’s church (he is now NAMB) taking over her long tim church (I knew the story from some in my family) so she and a bunch of old people go to a tiny church near by. Within a few years SBTS sends a young guy to pastor (they had not figured Mohler out yet) who talked constantly about sex to the mostly senior congregation. Even he and his wife’s sex life! They were disgusted.
    That is how ignorant that lot educated at SBTS have been.

  297. Nancy2 wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    You are not Kidding! I am constantly amazed at their analogies. But how strange to think such actresses are filling the Neo Reformed pews. It gets better. These actresses have signed membership covenants! I can’t wait to see the movie special on their church discipline!

    I noticed that his sinful fictional character was a woman. He never mentioned the sinful fictional man.

    Right. Isn’t that special…and disgusting.

    I haven’t cared what guys like Challies have written or said in years. The chains of bondage are broken. Life is much sweeter.

  298. @ Max:
    I know someone quite well who was consulted about taking the church Ezell was pastoring here elder led. Highview was along time traditional SBC church congregationally led. The effort to to make the changes was not announced or voted on. It was done by pure brainwashing from the pulpit. All I knew was that Ezell left not long after and Russ Moore, Dean at SBTS, became the the double dipping sermon pastor. I call it that because they come and grace people with their important words. Not exactly pastoring.
    Orator?

    Oh the machinations of the elite who know best for us. Deceivers.

  299. @ Muslin, fka Dee Holmes & mirele:
    Didn’t you see Piper’s retirement video? He announced he is taking Calvin to the nation’s as he stood in front of a giant Calvin statue in Geneva. Think of the money DG spent to fly a film crew to Geneva for that announcement. My guess is Platt is carrying that out for the SBC.

    Last I heard Piper moved to Nashville to be near his son Barnabas who is a “content strategist” for LifeWay.

  300. Lydia wrote:

    @ Muslin, fka Dee Holmes & mirele:
    Didn’t you see Piper’s retirement video?

    The one filmed in Geneva, Switzerland, where he pretty much proclaimed himself Heir to the Throne of Calvin?

  301. K.D. wrote:

    And meanwhile the denomination loses 200,000 members a year. At some point, the money will end, THEN what will happen?

    What happened to that Most Holy Superpower the Spanish Empire when all the free gold and silver from the Americas ran dry?

  302. Victorious wrote:

    Yes….and using flowery, meaningless imagery to prove how much she needs him (since she evidently can’t think clearly about theology….)

    With or without the Jazz Hands?

  303. mot wrote:

    Unbelievable, the day after the day we celebrate Christ’s birth which is in the New Testament these sickos go all the way back to Genesis 3-Old Testament to support their evilness. Can they not understand we are not living in the Old Testament days?

    But the OT has such potential for power grabbers!

    “When the storm of lies washes upon your wife, many things will help you lead her well.”

    I think these guys with a ‘leading fetish’ might be better off to get themselves a horse or a dog.

  304. Lydia wrote:

    Last I heard Piper moved to Nashville to be near his son Barnabas who is a “content strategist” for LifeWay.

    If only Jesus had had a ‘content strategist’, he might have actually been able to accomplish something… /s

  305. Lydia wrote:

    Within a few years SBTS sends a young guy to pastor (they had not figured Mohler out yet) who talked constantly about sex to the mostly senior congregation. Even he and his wife’s sex life! They were disgusted.

    My former senior pastor at Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley was also obsessed with talking about sex from the pulpit. He even did so during the Easter season to the outrage of visitors who got up and walked out, never to return! I wish I had joined them!

  306. @ siteseer:
    Lol! Barnabas was attending a padeo-Presbyterian denomination. He had even written a piece on why infant baptism is important. A big doctrinal no no in the SBC. He was not even Baptist when he was hired. I think he came back. LifeWay pays well when it comes to the good old boy empire building. I am sure there were none as qualified as he among the SBC to hire. (Wink)

  307. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Ja. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    @ Muslin, fka Dee Holmes & mirele:
    Didn’t you see Piper’s retirement video?

    The one filmed in Geneva, Switzerland, where he pretty much proclaimed himself Heir to the Throne of Calvin?

    Ja. It was titled “From Darkness to Light” and extolled Calvin’s glorious reign in Geneva restoring the Gospel that he will continue. I was thinking….Has this guy ever read any serious history?

    Even some non YRR reformed blogs were making fun of it.

  308. Lydia wrote:

    He announced he is taking Calvin to the nation’s as he stood in front of a giant Calvin statue in Geneva.

    Idol worship.

  309. Lydia wrote:

    And a pipe organ! I was in heaven.

    Not episcopalian, but we have the most fantastic organist! On Halloween, he played toccata and fugue in D minor. Gorgeous.

  310. Ken F wrote:

    This is weird beyond words.

    I read that! Married with small children mother I sit next to at church on netflix doing sex scenes is not exactly a common scenario. And then he went into a ridiculously detailed ‘membership covenant’ this person probably signed. Also not a likely scenario. I think I will go my whole life without any of that happening.

  311. Lea wrote:

    Married with small children mother I sit next to at church on netflix doing sex scenes is not exactly a common scenario.

    Maybe it is for Challies, which confirms he lives in a bubble.

  312. Lydia wrote:

    who talked constantly about sex to the mostly senior congregation. Even he and his wife’s sex life! They were disgusted.

    That’s just not proper. I don’t think these men had any raising.

  313. Lydia wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Some people talk. Others, do.
    Hee hee.

    Too funny, Lydia.

    On a more serious note, I thought it was a public threat to wives to toe the ‘submission’ line.

  314. Lea wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    who talked constantly about sex to the mostly senior congregation. Even he and his wife’s sex life! They were disgusted.
    That’s just not proper. I don’t think these men had any raising.

    Spot on.

  315. I wrote the following question to Marie:

    Marie
    I asked this question I on a previous Wartburg Watch post about your situation but don’t think I saw you comment.

    Have your church leaders done anything to your husband or threatened him with church discipline for his actions? I am just curious. These (typically male) leaders always seem to want to “discipline” women for divorcing abusive husbands but you never hear about them disciplining abusive husbands for their actions. Wouldn’t it make as much sense for your husband to be brought before the church for his repeated and hence unrepentant actions? Isn’t it his repeated actions that are causing this to occur?

    Are these church leaders clueless about this cause? If your husband isn’t loving you as God commands (like Christ loved the church as Paul writes about) then isn’t your husband in unrepentant sin?

    I am always so baffled that this is so one sided.

    Marie responded with the following comment:

    Absolutely nothing.
    My ex-husband is not a member of the church, never has been – idk if that has anything to do with it. When I went to them initially and explained in some (but not exhaustive) detail the 20-year pattern of verbal/emotional abuse, they initially claimed to believe me and agreed it was abuse. They then started in on the “you’re BOTH going to ‘biblical counseling until he repents, then you’re reconciling.”

    These gentlemen clearly do not understand the mindset of controlling abusive men, or that when one says repeatedly “I’m not going to change; and only gets worse after decades, at some point you take them at their word.

    I submitted an 8-page statement to them, outlining specifics incidents and patterns over the length of the marriage; it was ignored. I reported ongoing gaslighting and intimidation incidents throughout the summer (while we were divorced; we share joint custody). Also ignored. College aged daughter emailed, asking for help (she was now being victimized worse than ever). Minimized. No idea what went on in counseling room, but the abuse was NEVER really dealt with.

    In fact, by the time their emails to me started getting insistent (by the fall), his tricks and entrapment were getting so bad I started bringing a witness with me to the pickups every week. These “pastors”by this time had softened “abuse” to “treatment of you” and “bi-lateral sin”, hand-wringing over my supposed “sinful reaction” to this monstrous behavior.

    And thus, my abuser sits pretty at HBC; will only be protected and enabled by these men; and I am painted as the rebellious shrew. Not on your life. Enough is enough, and I’ve endured enough torment (FIRST from this unstable man!; then from these misguided spiritual leaders) for an entire lifetime. The hypocrisy is mind-boggling.

    Sorry if this is a long post but since Marie didn’t quote my question when she responded to my question I am wanting to make sure everyone saw that these two comments were related.

    When I saw this post, I had originally assumed that both Marie and her husband were members of this church but found that not be the case. I am also now assuming that Marie’s husband isn’t a professed believer since he was never a member of this church (correct me if I am wrong Marie). If Marie’s husband had in fact been a member of this church and a professed believer I can understand the push for reconciliation up to a certain point but not if something like this has been going on for this long. There eventually comes a time and to give something up as lost such I believe the case in this situation.

    With Marie’s husband not being a member of this church these leaders also have a lot less control of her husband which that again brings into question the actions of these church leaders.

    I also understand that this church wanting to “discipline” Marie professes to believe in Calvinism including such beliefs as God only electing certain persons to salvation and what they call” total depravity” (again correct me if I am wrong about this church being Calvinistic or to put it another way believing in a “sovereign grace” not to be confused with the denomination Sovereign Grace).

    If Marie’s husband is not a believer and if you use their teaching on Calvinism especially the “total depravity” the church leaders push for reconciliation/staying married makes even less sense. Isn’t Marie’s husband “totally depraved” as they teach? With him being “totally depraved” (again as they teach) isn’t it basically impossible for her husband to do any good? Don’t Calvinists like to quote the passage in Romans 3:10-18? Isn’t it impossible for her husband to do really ever do good unless God decides to “elect” her husband to salvation as they also teach.

    It always baffles me how contradictory the actions are of those who claim to believe in Calvinism.

  316. Steve240 wrote:

    It always baffles me how contradictory the actions are of those who claim to believe in Calvinism.

    My take-away from being in a NeoCalvinist church (Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley, my ex-church) was that every thing is the woman’s fault. Jesus may have died for Adam’s sin in the Garden of Eden, but Jesus didn’t die for Eve’s sin according to the Comps/NeoCals. Therefore, I guess, you can conclude that in their thinking Eve is greater than Jesus.

    The Holy Spirit, likewise in Comp belief, is fully functioning in men but is defective and can’t function in women. Take away: The Holy Spirit is defective.

  317. Lydia wrote:

    @ Muslin, fka Dee Holmes & mirele:
    Didn’t you see Piper’s retirement video? He announced he is taking Calvin to the nation’s as he stood in front of a giant Calvin statue in Geneva.

    Did he burn any incense on an altar before the statue?
    (flutter flutter flutter)

  318. Lydia wrote:

    Within a few years SBTS sends a young guy to pastor (they had not figured Mohler out yet) who talked constantly about sex to the mostly senior congregation. Even he and his wife’s sex life! They were disgusted.

    Horndog. Did he parade his Smokin’ HAWT Wife before them?

    Remember what I used to say about Deep Throat Driscoll, Got Hard, and “peeks into the ManaGAWD’s sexual fantasies”.

  319. Lea wrote:

    Ken F wrote:
    This is weird beyond words.

    I read that! Married with small children mother I sit next to at church on netflix doing sex scenes is not exactly a common scenario.

    Another peek into the MoG’s sexual “proclivities”?

  320. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    LOL careful guys with the “mad asses” comments – my parents are practicing Catholics. Which somehow makes the Luther reference all the more ironic. (My Dad is also a retired history teacher and author),

    This makes everything about your dad’s letter three times as awesome.

    I’m glad you had a good Christmas! All the best!

  321. @ Another Former HBCer:

    “A book that deeply helped me was emotionally healthy spirituality.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Former HBCer — i am very happy for you! how awesome and excellent, to reclaim your life and your own spirituality from those who usurped it. no doubt you are very strong and courageous. 3 cheers for freedom!

    re: the book, i can’t help but be cynical when christians have a plan for “healthy”.

    how many times have i heard/read christian dopes preaching about “healthy” and it’s just replacing one totalitarian regime for another one with (or without) a more soft-pedaled presentation. sprinkled with implied mandates in the form of guilt-&-fear-infused should’s, and imposed limitations & restrictions. all of it based on sin inventions called “biblical”.

    and, of course, there are at present at least 92 iterations of “biblical” & counting, all contradicting each other.

    and then i look at my agnostic/atheist friends, and notice their happiness, their good relationships with their mates & kids, their relaxedness, their kindness & generosity, and how they seem to be enjoying it all.

    as far as “healthy” goes, my conclusion is to tune out christian voices and simply go with common sense.

  322. Steve240 wrote:

    all

    The issue they see is that he’s not saved, therefore anything he does is because of that.

    Abused his wife, thats not important, we really need to deal with Marie since she is a professing christian and a member of this church. If only she had been more Christ like, he would have come to Jesus. It must be her fault then…

  323. Brother Maynard wrote:

    If only she had been more Christ like, he would have come to Jesus.

    And if they can just keep holding Marie hostage, he’ll eventually come around to their way of thinking and submit himself to their gawd ordained oversight!

  324. Nancy2 wrote:

    Brother Maynard wrote:

    If only she had been more Christ like, he would have come to Jesus.

    And if they can just keep holding Marie hostage, he’ll eventually come around to their way of thinking and submit himself to their gawd ordained oversight!

    goodness, their example provides her ‘husband’ an opportunity to learn new ‘christian’ methods of abusing Marie ….. please!

  325. Christiane wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:

    Brother Maynard wrote:
    If only she had been more Christ like, he would have come to Jesus.
    And if they can just keep holding Marie hostage, he’ll eventually come around to their way of thinking and submit himself to their gawd ordained oversight!

    goodness, their example provides her ‘husband’ an opportunity to learn new ‘christian’ methods of abusing Marie ….. please!

    That’s the whole point.
    Feature, not Bug.