9Marks and Church Discipline at SEBTS: What About Case Studies?

A person who has been punished is not less inclined to behave in a given way; at best, he learns how to avoid punishment.- B. F. Skinner link

(Think about this quote and how it could apply to church discipline.)

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=41180&picture=sunset-7
Sunset

9Marks/SEBTS Conference on Church Discipline

I live about 5 miles from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. It is a seminary which, in most respects, marches lockstep with Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. This weekend 9Marks, represented by Jonathan Leeman and Mark Dever, are participating in the 7th annual 9Marks conference at the seminary. That, in itself, should help you to understand where this seminary stands in terms of theology and affiliation.

Although Jonathan Leeman kindly invited me to attend this conference, fearing that I might be the subject of a practical demonstration on discipline, I promptly headed to Florida to collect sea shells. This should irritate a number of members of this conference who, as followers of John Piper, would never waste their lives on such silliness when there are so many people to discipline and so little time to do so.

However, one can watch the live streaming of the conference. Most likely all of these discussions will be archived at the SEBTS website. They do have one member of the dude-bro contingent who, wearing a knitted cap and slouching, looks like a guy who could get the boys to show how shunning is really done in their neighborhood.

Jonathan Leeman and Mistakes in Church Discipline

There is no question that we are getting through to the church discipline crowd since they are planning to discuss the wrong way to discipline.The Village Church treatment of Karen Hinkley has a number of people beginning to question the judgment of this gospel™ discipline crowd. 

A couple days ago, probably in preparation for this conference, Jonathan Leeman posted 22 Mistakes Pastors Make in Practicing Church Discipline. Read all of the 22 mistakes he lists. Here are a few that I want to concentrate on so that I can get back to meaningful shell collection.

4. They fail to teach new members as they enter the church about the possibility of church discipline, and that preemptive resignations don’t work.

5. They fail to ensure that the church’s public documents (bylaws, constitution, articles of incorporation, etc.) address the procedures of church discipline, thereby exposing the church to legal risk.

10. They treat the processes of church discipline entirely as a legal process with little consideration for shepherding the unrepentant individual’s heart.

12. They forget that they too live by the gospel’s provision of mercy, and therefore prosecute the discipline from a posture of self-righteousness. Other mistakes follow from this wrong posture, such as an overly severe tone and standoffishness.

13. They fail to truly love the sinner . . . by not begging the Lord for his or her repentance.

15. They fail to properly instruct the congregation on how to interact with the unrepentant sinner, such as how to relate to him or her in social situations and how to pursue his or her repentance.

16. They fail to invite the disciplined individual to continue attending services of the church so that he or she might continue to hear God’s Word (assuming there is no threat of criminal harm). Also, they fail to inform the church that everyone should hope for the disciplined individual to continue attending.

17. They put the responsibility for leading the discipline process entirely on the shoulders of one man, the senior pastor, thereby tempting individuals in the church to accuse the senior pastor of being personally vindictive.

18. They fail to have sufficient elder involvement in the congregation’s life, such that the elders are unaware of the state of the sheep. This failure of formative discipline will inevitably weaken the church’s ability to do corrective discipline well.

20. They allow the congregation to approach a case of discipline with a wrongful spirit of retribution, rather than with the loving desire to warn the unrepentant sinner about God’s ultimate retribution to come.

The problems inherent in his post

Here are some thoughts based on the above.

Most churches we deal with on this blog do mention church discipline in their membership guidelines, but they do not define what they will discipline. This is the heart of the problem.

The real problem is that they do not define what acts will lead to church discipline or they do not allow for flexibility when the inevitable exception arises. That is how abuse begins.

Todd Wilhelm, a former member of 9Marks (John Folmar) UCCDubai, had signed the membership contract which stated he would need to join another church as soon as he left UCCD. However, Todd Wilhelm objected to the bookstore that was selling CJ Mahaney books. They would not stop promoting Mahaney's books, so he resigned as a matter of conscience. Todd wanted to take his time in joining another church. This was not allowed and he was added to the *care list* which means he was headed for discipline.  

This, frankly, is nuts but they would not bend. When he joined, he had no idea how kooky the process could be. (More on this shortly.)

He claims that preemptive resignation does not work.

Once again, they are walking on shaky legal ground here. US law allows one to resign from a voluntary organization. The Karen Hinkley debacle shows how vindictive this policy can be. She resigned, and The Village Church claimed she could not do so since she was under, get this, retroactive church discipline. TVC could have been subjected to a serious lawsuit, but Karen was kind and allowed the apology to stand.

Once again, they add insult to injury. They can abusively apply church discipline and then they attempt to prevent the abused person from leaving. Abuse upon abuse. This is silly. Let them go. 

A clearly defined procedure for church discipline will prevent legal problems.

Wrong. I have read The Village Church's church discipline documents. Those documents were inadequate to deal with their foolish pursuit of discipline against Karen. We received a number of calls from lawyers who would have loved to defend Karen, pro bono, in a lawsuit against TVC.  Also, continuing to discuss a member who has resigned in public meetings, involving potentially thousands of members, is both dangerous and foolish when it comes to the law.

Instruct members that loving the sinner means begging God for their repentance.

Really? Even when the discipline is poorly defined and inequitably applied? Karen dealt with gospel™ people who reminded her that Hosea was married to an adulterer so staying in her marriage to the pedophile was justified. They told her she should repent and were praying that she would. However, the whole thing was bogus from the beginning.

Failure to instruct the congregation on how to deal with the disciplined member.

TWW will be writing a story of another 9Marks wannabe church which clearly instructed their church on how to shun a disciplined church member, leading to that person's inability to provide for the family. They also allowed certain rumors to be spread throughout the church which were untrue. Can you imagine a hot dog lawyer looking at this church?

They fail to invite disciplined people to continuing to attend the church.

This one is confusing, especially in light of the allowance for the shunning of the supposedly unrepentant person. Can you imagine going into a church which has disciplined you and is now shunning you? Cold, really cold…(Come to EChurch instead!!)

The senior pastor is viewed as vindictive when discipline goes badly. He needs to involve others.

Unfortunately, the buck must stop somewhere. In the end, it is in the lead pastor's lap. Matt Chandler realized this fact. When it comes to Todd Wilhelm's situation, most people will blame the senior pastor. Sure, one can involve others. However, most people recognize that the senior pastor almost always gets his way. He is either the leader and the one who takes the blame or he is not the leader. He can't have it both ways.

 Two types of discipline? Formative discipline and corrective discipline.

 This is described by 9Marks in a 2010 post.

Formative discipline” is administered far more frequently. In fact, it happens all the time to every church member. This is simply the process of bringing people to maturity in Christ through positive instruction and teaching—through formation. When the Word is preached and we are convicted, or when Christians encourage each other, that is formative discipline. (See for example Ephesians 4:11-12; Hebrews 10:24-25; and Colossians 3:16.) This kind of discipline is crucial because God uses it to prevent the sin that might require corrective discipline. The more the church is shaped by formative discipline, the less it will need corrective discipline.

Here's the deal. When does formative discipline become corrective discipline, and how is that line crossed? Once again, I believe that a lack of specifics will lead to more and more incidents like The Village Church/Karen Hinkley and UCC Dubai/Todd Wilhelm. 

Leaders need to instruct the members that this is not about retribution here but the divine retribution to come. 
 

The word, "love" is being applied more and mote to mean church discipline. However, we are seeing more and more instances in which church discipline is both unloving and ridiculous. Not only are Christian bloggers picking up on this, but so are other forms of media. We are beginning to look ridiculous with some of these stories.

One other quick note of a theological nature. If someone sins badly but is really a Christian and they die, do they receive divine retribution? Do we all face retribution when we go to heaven and we are Christians?

Accurate case studies could be one of the solutions

Jonathan Leeman and I exchanged some tweets a couple of weeks ago. I told him that I will continue to be the loyal opposition to his current mandates on church discipline. I see it moving more and more into ridiculous directions.

I discussed my concern with the way John Folmar, BFF of Mark Dever, applied church discipline in Todd Wilhelm's situation. Leeman answered with the infamous line that Matt Chandler tried in the beginning of the Karen Hinkley saga.

You don't know the whole story. 

Leeman appealed to confidentiality. So I contacted Todd and told Leeman that Todd would sign a release to allow Folmar to discuss this situation in public.

Leeman was not amused. He asked me who I would appoint to adjudicate the conversation. My intentions have nothing to do with a court trial. He didn't understand what I was getting at. Both Deb and I hold MBAs. Case studies of companies, both failures and successes, are an integral part of the MBA curriculum. By reading about all of the input in a particular decision, one can begin to understand how certain outcomes came into being. 

The problem with today's churches is that many of them are fearful of taking a good, hard look at their decisions and sharing their experience with the wider Body of Christ. 

What Leeman does not understand is this. The more open and honest we can be with our failures, the greater the possibility that we can justly apply actions in church discipline situations. Todd Wilhelm has given permission to have his case looked at by the public. 9Marks should do so. In fact, 9Marks should do this in all of their church discipline decisions in which the disciplined member is willing to have the books opened up to the light.

Until the rules of the game are defined prospectively and there is a willingness of the churches to assess individual cases of discipline, I will not trust or recommend joining a church that "believes in church discipline".

Comments

9Marks and Church Discipline at SEBTS: What About Case Studies? — 186 Comments

  1. Personally, I think more than case studies are needed for a solution. You need an actual system of checks and balances so church “authorities” don’t have absolute power in the situation.

  2. Who needs a policy on church discipline when we have “scribsher!” After all, the Bible clearly states… Whatever I need it to state in order to retain power.

  3. Gritting my teeth and listening to the live stream. All about how to install church discipline and the process. Nothing (so far) on what ‘sins’ fall under ‘church discipline’ – case studies would would definitely help, but, as Dee noted, they find an excuse not to do so, usually on the basis of confidentiality, even though the facts are all over the Internet. It’s really because they don’t want to criticize a fellow neo-Cal Klub member.

    It’s all about disciplining the sheep, pastors aren’t sheep in their view – they’re above them, so they don’t talk about how to discipline an autocratic pastor whose elders are his henchmen. Nor do they discuss why most church discipline is aimed at those who dare ask hard but legitimate questions of the leadership.

    Isn’t it somewhat chilling to see that the the big neo-Cal conference and publication pushes, male supremacy and church discipline, are doctrines of oppression? I’ve never seen a conference on how to love one’s neighbor ( but they do take time in the conference to say any number times how ‘loving’ church is toward the victim of they’re version of ‘church discipline’.

  4. GSD wrote:

    After all, the Bible clearly states… Whatever I need it to state in order to retain power.

    You have it in a nutshell.

  5. And now my comment. Nick had me rolling on the floor….

    This disciplne….is it just me, or are these guys ” getting off” in punishing folks….I mean, borderline S&M?

    And yes, if you can’t quit a church, I do not want to go….

  6. GSD wrote:

    And… Bronze. Sigh.

    On the plus side, the silver medallist may yet be DQ’d for commenting under the influence of Co-Op own-brand Cava.

  7. ” discussed my concern with the way John Folmar, BFF of Mark Dever, applied church discipline in Todd Wilhelm’s situation. Leeman answered with the infamous line that Matt Chandler tried in the beginning of the Karen Hinkley saga.

    You don’t know the whole story.

    Leeman appealed to confidentiality. So I contacted Todd and told Leeman that Todd would sign a release to allow Folmar to discuss this situation in public

    Leeman was not amused. He asked me who I would appoint to adjudicate the conversation.

    Note that Leeman automatically made it into a “legal” situation to tell their side of Todd’s story. Nothing is straight forward with these guys. But if they can keep up the ruse of a “whole story has not been told” they can plant poisonous but vague seeds in their followers minds about Todd. That is really the tactic and it works quite well within the bubble. It is so deceptive and just plain evil. The truth would look very bad outside the bubble and they know this from recent PR disasters.

    When they bring in mediators and such, they still control so that is a tactic, too. Bog it down.

    Todd will sign off so why not just “tell the whole story”? hmmm?

    (btw: Way to go, Todd!)

    When all is said and done they really are cowardly little men.

  8. K.D. wrote:

    This disciplne….is it just me, or are these guys ” getting off” in punishing folks….I mean, borderline S&M?

    There is definitely a streak of cruelty involved.

  9. K.D. wrote:

    And now my comment. Nick had me rolling on the floor….

    In a good way, I hope…

    If indeed you do manage a visit to Scotland in the next couple of years, you’ll be more than welcome to drop by and join us in sampling said Cava. A very nice, crisp, dry sparkling white that offers an exceptional quality-to-cost ratio.

    Hiccup

  10. 4. They fail to teach new members as they enter the church about the possibility of church discipline, and that preemptive resignations don’t work.

    In my estimation, this indicates that the writer did not learn one thing from the Chandler/Hinkley incident.

    17. They put the responsibility for leading the discipline process entirely on the shoulders of one man, the senior pastor, thereby tempting individuals in the church to accuse the senior pastor of being personally vindictive.

    This indicates that, having considered the outcomes that other Sr Pastors have experienced, it would definitely be better to be able to spread the blame around to some elders if another disciplinary action goes “south.” In addition, I don’t imagine that very many Sr. Pastors are “personally vindictive” (although one or two come to mind) but I do think it is true that Sr Pastors have the means and the opportunity to employ bullying tactics which run contrary to the teaching of the New Testament.

  11. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    K.D. wrote:

    And now my comment. Nick had me rolling on the floor….

    In a good way, I hope…

    If indeed you do manage a visit to Scotland in the next couple of years, you’ll be more than welcome to drop by and join us in sampling said Cava. A very nice, crisp, dry sparkling white that offers an exceptional quality-to-cost ratio.

    Hiccup

    Very good sir, very good…

  12. I don’t understand this one –

    “20. They allow the congregation to approach a case of discipline with a wrongful spirit of retribution, rather than with the loving desire to warn the unrepentant sinner about God’s ultimate retribution to come.”

    In most cases the congregation is the last to know anything. The pastors have already dispensed church discipline upon a member and the congregation is warned to stay away from the member. The congregation is usually parroting their leader’ attitudes. It is the leaders who are looking for retribution and have a wrongful spirit toward the member who has ‘sinned’ in some way against the leaders.

  13. Prediction: The words “Karen” and “Hinkley” will not be spoken. Cowardly Pharisees. Second Prediction: Matt Chandler and/or The Village will be spoken of highly, though the Hinkley/Root debacle will not be mentioned. This is based on standard PR damage control manipulative communication.

    The reason they do not use case studies is that none of them have ever functioned in the real world where all failures are analyzed or else the enterprise fails or people get killed. In their world, failure only ever means disagreeing with them on their non-negotiables in which case a child of God becomes an unbeliever. Everything else is covered by the gospel, including pedophilia and pastoral abuse of a young woman who had been betrayed by her husband and her ELDERS.

  14. I should probably shut up, really, shouldn’t I?

    Back on topic, as Lydia, Jeff and KD have observed, there IS a serious point here.

    One of the things Lesley and I have observed over the last few years, as we have worked on improving the support given to the long-term unemployed here in Scotland, is that competent and wise government is the heart and soul of “righteous and godly” government. Too much leadership in the church suffers from delusions of competence brought on by too much approval for supporting the dogma du jour.

  15. Alan House wrote:

    4. They fail to teach new members as they enter the church about the possibility of church discipline, and that preemptive resignations don’t work.

    In my estimation, this indicates that the writer did not learn one thing from the Chandler/Hinkley incident.

    Of course they did not learn from their epic failure. It is impossible to even consider that their basic outlook is wrong. IIRC, the only thing Chandler ever apologized for was being insufficiently sensitive. IOW, it isn’t the system but rather merely the implementation. The roll-out was glitchy, etc. Epic failures will never be acknowledged as such by True Believers. To deny their doctrines would be to deny their own personal importance and their identity which they have placed there rather than in Christ.

  16. I wish I hadn’t found the livestream. They’re discussing discipline of a member who has left their church and joined another. Of COURSE they would excommunicate someone who had already left if that person joined a Roman Catholic Church or a United Methodist Church or even another Baptist church if it isn’t “Gospel™” enough.

  17. Does a false accusation that threatens one’s career, reputation and livelihood count for church discipline Dee?

    I’m honestly curious….

  18. Elizabeth Lee wrote:

    I wish I hadn’t found the livestream. They’re discussing discipline of a member who has left their church and joined another. Of COURSE they would excommunicate someone who had already left if that person joined a Roman Catholic Church or a United Methodist Church or even another Baptist church if it isn’t “Gospel™” enough.

    And these guys are wondering why membership in the SBC is dropping?

  19. JeffT wrote:

    ( but they do take time in the conference to say any number times how ‘loving’ church is toward the victim of they’re version of ‘church discipline’.

    That anything like the Ministry of Love (miniluv) in Nineteen Eighty-Four?

  20. Gram3 wrote:

    IOW, it isn’t the system but rather merely the implementation.

    Ideology is Perfect, Comrade.
    Failed because it was sabotaged by Traitors, Reactionaries, and The Dark Forces.
    This time We WILL Achieve True Communism!

  21. The obsession with disciplining people is really quite astonishing. The fact that Leeman wrote up all of those points, AND that they’re conducting an entire conference dealing with those issues, reveals clearly that the Neo-Cal, YRR, conservative bro dude wing of the church has gone completely off the rails.

  22. Gram3 wrote:

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:
    On the plus side, the silver medallist may yet be DQ
    I love DQ. Snickers Blizzards will be at the Wedding Feast, I’m quite sure.

    I’m really out of the loop here. What is DQ? The only DGQ I know of is Dairy Queen. And Snickers Blizzards….is that a new candy bar? I assume Wedding Feast is the actual wedding feast with Christ with the resurrection of the glorious children of God. Maybe I’m still out in left field….;-)

  23. GC wrote:

    The obsession with disciplining people is really quite astonishing. The fact that Leeman wrote up all of those points, AND that they’re conducting an entire conference dealing with those issues, reveals clearly that the Neo-Cal, YRR, conservative bro dude wing of the church has gone completely off the rails.

    It is just amazing to me….and they wanting to not let you leave the church so they can ” punish” you? That’s just meshuga. I mean seriously, that’s the craziest thing I have ever heard.

  24. The Village Church treatment of Karen Hinkley has a number of people beginning to question the judgment of this gospel™ discipline crowd.
    Not to be a downer, but outside the authors and regulars at this blog, do you have evidence of this? Who are the “number of people”?

  25. I’m going to be blunt…Jonathan Leeman and this crowd need to hold a real job, have a real supervisor, and have real performance expectations to deal with. If they did they would look at things in a very different light.

    No one plans for problems or difficulty. Consider…

    1. On the day Karen Hinkley was married did she honestly believe that she would later get an annulment of that her husband was addicted to child pornography?

    2. When Dee Parsons taught Sunday school at Providence Baptist did she ever think that in the course of time there would be a major child sex abuse scandal?

    3. Did I ever imagine in 2007 that in the time span of a couple of years that I would have a major faith crisis? Did I also imagine that an Air Force Captain from Redeemer Arlington who professed love and concern for me would turn around and falsely claim that I was a threat to his family? I never in a million years imagined that I would live under the threat of being reported to law enforcement. Likewise I never imagined that someone how boasted of his faith would also teach me why rape is a problem in the military.

    Life is hard, unpredictable, and difficult. No one plans anything of this magnitude. Jonathan Leeman and his henchman at 9 Marks need to get a real job.

  26. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    competent and wise government is the heart and soul of “righteous and godly” government. Too much leadership in the church suffers from delusions of competence brought on by too much approval for supporting the dogma du jour.

    Spot on. In this era, the character of a leader is irrelevant (as long as his character flaws are not about sex or money) as long as he speaks “right” words and if he’s entertaining, so much the better. It’s like 1 Cor 13 got torn out of the Bible. Or Matt 23.

  27. Darlene wrote:

    Gram3 wrote: Nick Bulbeck wrote: On the plus side, the silver medallist may yet be DQ I love DQ. Snickers Blizzards will be at the Wedding Feast, I’m quite sure. I’m really out of the loop here. What is DQ? The only DGQ I know of is Dairy Queen. And Snickers Blizzards….is that a new candy bar? I assume Wedding Feast is the actual wedding feast with Christ with the resurrection of the glorious children of God. Maybe I’m still out in left field….;-)

    It is Dairy Queen….a blizzard is an ice cream treat. They often add candy such as Snicker's bar, Butterfinger bars, etc to the ice cream and blend it. ( They also blend fruit with the ice cream) My favorite is a Turtle ( candy) caramel pecan….they also offer a monthly special. And this month's is pumpkin.

  28. I will waive my right to the bronze medal. I’m more of a brass guy anyway, after 2 decades of trumpet playing.

    I had no idea SWBTS had a livefeed Great, that’s EXACTLY what I needed today. [Sarcasm]. The speaker has mentioned Sproul, McArthur, and now Piper. But its not nearly as loony as some of the other things I’ve heard this week.

  29. I think the plan of the Neo-Cals is to be a Calvinist ghetto hiding out in their bunkers believing themselves to be the last vestige of True Christianity on the face of the earth. All outsiders, which include the bloggers who are on to them, the non-Calvinist Christians, the Christians that don’t hold to Comp/Pat teaching, female Christians who dare speak out against their abusive techniques…(feel free to add to this list TWW readers) are all under suspicion. They operate like the church lady, when faced with anything outside their sanctimonious borders: Could it be Satan????

  30. “I discussed my concern with the way John Folmar, BFF of Mark Dever, applied church discipline in Todd Wilhelm’s situation. Leeman answered with the infamous line that Matt Chandler tried in the beginning of the Karen Hinkley saga.

    You don’t know the whole story.

    Leeman appealed to confidentiality. So I contacted Todd and told Leeman that Todd would sign a release to allow Folmar to discuss this situation in public…”

    You called the bluff. If there is no other side of the story, they have to backtrack somehow. If there is another side of the story, why not tell it? Why not have it public if it is okay with Todd?

    “You don’t know the whole story” must be in a playbook somewhere. As I said in another thread, it’s a very insidious form of attack because we have probably all experienced having our minds changed by hearing the other side of a story at some point. Because of this, it is the PERFECT cover when there really isn’t another side of the story, which is what is true in situations of abuse. There is just one side, but if you can slander through innuendo and simultaneously get the heat off your back…. double win… if you have no conscience. It’s all the more disgusting because it’s rubbing salt in the wound of the one who’s already been wounded and deprives that person of possible support.

  31. K.D. wrote:

    GC wrote:
    It is just amazing to me….and they wanting to not let you leave the church so they can ” punish” you? That’s just meshuga. I mean seriously, that’s the craziest thing I have ever heard.

    Well, their churches have been compared to Hotel Californias here at TWW. I think the description is perfect. In fact, I would suggest that while they are explaining the church discipline process, they have Hotel California playing in the background for special effect.

  32. Some thoughts on case studies: I believe they are immensely useful, having produced three case studies in spiritual abuse that took over 300 hours of research writing each, and others that were 50 to 100 hours each. I find I tend to see the gaps and the excesses more starkly when I get into that level of factual detail, and compare it with what is supposed to happen either theologically or legally.

    It’s my conclusion that concept frameworks that reportedly apply theology positively to life can easily be spun any which way to make them seem appealing. But, the problems inherent in the supposed solutions emerge when concrete, destructive consequences show themselves in the lives of the very people those frameworks were advertised as being there to help. Then what? Do those in charge of the system deny the negative impact? Do they seek to identify them and work to change so God’s people are no longer harmed? What?

    Case studies are an excellent way to move a theological discussion from the abstractions of “what if?” that are supposed to happen, to the observations of “what?” actually factually did happen. If we don’t ever make that crucial shift, we’re not likely to get to the interpretation of “so what?” for the constructive or destructive impact of the original concepts. And, if we don’t do the “so what?” analysis, how are we going to get to the “now what?” stage of confirming the principles, improving them, or ditching them?

    There are all sorts of ways to hide from the kind of transparency that is necessary for individuals and organizations that actually want to grow through self-reflection and correction. Most of the excuses that deflect or misdirect away from transparency, it seems to me, are veiled statements that the leaders already think their systems are perfect and don’t need improvement. That does seem to go with certain kinds of theologies that endorse some form of perfectionism.

    But, I suspect that such leaders and their followers should expect to be questioned about that. In this particular case, they want to have “formative and corrective discipline,” but certainly do not seem willing to accept that themselves at the organizational level — or they might welcome a fact-based, qualitative analysis designed to correct and improve the systems.

    Final thought: A well-done case study may not sway a group of leaders en masse who are committed to their theological principles and practices — but it may influence individual leaders and followers, especially those who’ve been on the receiving end of a corroded and corrosive system. At least these open-hearted individuals will be able to point to evidence and say, “See, I *wasn’t* crazy — that’s really what did happen!” So, if activism for change doesn’t come out of a case study, at least advocacy for survivors does.

    So, @Dee … how can we help?

  33. K.D. wrote:

    And now my comment. Nick had me rolling on the floor….
    This disciplne….is it just me, or are these guys ” getting off” in punishing folks….I mean, borderline S&M?
    And yes, if you can’t quit a church, I do not want to go….

    I think the more likely explanation is narcissism. A person with narcissistic personality disorder doesn’t have the empathy needed to feel another’s pain so I would think it would be harder to gain sadistic pleasure out of another’s pain when you can’t fully imagine their pain. (I could be wrong.) However, the rush that a narcissist gets in being able to crush someone with their power is like a narcotic. The pleasure is in the power rush, not so much the suffering of the victim.

  34. And not being able to feel the suffering of the victim makes this painless for the narcissist. No pesky empathy to prick the conscience.

  35. Eagle wrote:

    Jonathan Leeman and his henchman at 9 Marks need to get a real job.

    They could learn a thing or two from George Thorogood in this regard.

  36. Here’s why I think church discipline has become such a big deal:

    The neo-Cals have spent the last number of years announcing so many doctrines that are ‘non-negotiable’ fundamentals to being Christian that the list is almost as many as their are names written on the Vietnam War Memorial. Now they need to weed out all those who don’t adhere to every one of their doctrines. Since pastors are, in the Neo-Cal Brave New World, appointed by God as a mini-Pope. They are to wield church discipline to cull their churches of all of those non-conforming sinners – including those who question the petty tyrant because that’s a huge sin in itself.

    All of their precious and innumerable doctrines mean nothing if they can’t be imposed on the sheep.

  37. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    commenting under the influence of Co-Op own-brand Cava.

    Oh you are pushing that boat out Nick 🙂 Seriously, if I drank I might be tempted to go to my nearest shop – a Co-op, nonetheless- & try some. I once walked to that Co-op when we were badly snowed in & filled my backpack with the important stuff, chocolate & Diet Pepsi. Needs must.

  38. “You don’t know the whole story” must be in a playbook somewhere.

    Yes, it’s in the playbook of pastors and churches that have found themselves in hot water due to mishandling sex abuse cases and overstepping their control in disciplining pewpeons. Doug Wilson has been implementing the “You don’t know the whole story” quite well since the Wight and Sitler debacles have been revisited. It’s a rather convenient and diversionary tactic meant to keep outsiders at bay. No one can ever constructively criticize their actions because the complete story is never known. Funny how that doesn’t work for Wilson and his ilk when they are criticizing their opponents.

  39. bonnie knox wrote:

    And maybe DQ also means “disqualified” in Nick’s usage.

    In Nick’s case, it probably does, but everyone needs to know about a DQ Blizzard. 🙂

  40. I always thought that only God “knows the *whole* story” … so, if some leader tells us we don’t know the whole story, imply they do, what does that mean, logically, about who they are (or implicitly claim to be)?

    And, isn’t saying, “That’s confidential information” already breaking confidentiality by saying they know something from confidential discussions that they shouldn’t even be telling us they had?

  41. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    nd, isn’t saying, “That’s confidential information” already breaking confidentiality by saying they know something from confidential discussions that they shouldn’t even be telling us they had?

    Very good point.

  42. K.D. wrote:

    ice cream treat

    Indeed, and this is a case where “treat” reveals that there is no actual cream in the “ice cream treat.” Plausible deniability. However, add enough Snickers and I don’t care. Much better that any Scottish wine, IMO.

    A DQ ice cream treat is to ice cream as 9Marks church discipline is to Biblical church discipline. It helps to believe in it before you taste it.

  43. I think that a need for power and control underlies a lot of this stuff. In a comp church you’ve already silenced and controlled half of your congregation. With church discipline, a pastor can bring the rest under his thumb fairly easily.

  44. Gram3 wrote:

    K.D. wrote:

    ice cream treat

    Indeed, and this is a case where “treat” reveals that there is no actual cream in the “ice cream treat.” Plausible deniability. However, add enough Snickers and I don’t care. Much better that any Scottish wine, IMO.

    A DQ ice cream treat is to ice cream as 9Marks church discipline is to Biblical church discipline. It helps to believe in it before you taste it.

    The family farm is in the heart of dairy country in East Texas. There is a creamery very nearby. They make most of butter for name brand companies in the Dallas-Houston-OKC-Little Rock areas, and most of the leftover product is made into soft service ice cream. I don’t even want to know the process.

  45. What I find funny about this whole thing is how, after essentially inventing “church discipline, this crowd now has to spend so much time and effort going far, far beyond the Bible to make sure it is done just right and no-one messes it up. That is often a good sign that one has embraced an unbiblical concept.

  46. bonnie knox wrote:

    And maybe DQ also means “disqualified” in Nick’s usage.

    DQ’d does indeed mean disqualified in that context. Compare with DNS (does/did not start) and DNF (did not finish). I borrowed the term from track and field athletics, though it’s undoubtedly used elsewhere.

  47. JeffT wrote:

    Here’s why I think church discipline has become such a big deal:
    The neo-Cals have spent the last number of years announcing so many doctrines that are ‘non-negotiable’ fundamentals to being Christian that the list is almost as many as their are names written on the Vietnam War Memorial. Now they need to weed out all those who don’t adhere to every one of their doctrines. Since pastors are, in the Neo-Cal Brave New World, appointed by God as a mini-Pope. They are to wield church discipline to cull their churches of all of those non-conforming sinners – including those who question the petty tyrant because that’s a huge sin in itself.
    All of their precious and innumerable doctrines mean nothing if they can’t be imposed on the sheep.

    And what would some of those Neo Non-Negotiables be? Let’s see:
    Patriarchy/Complementarianism – and under this heading:
    Couples who don’t have children = unbiblical
    Women working outside the home = unbiblical
    Divorce of any kind = unbiblical

    And then others added to this list:
    YEC
    Politics: Being a Democrat or voting for a Democrat = unbiblical
    Not part of a “care” group
    Not tithing enough
    Unwillingness to sign a covenant membership form
    Having close relationships with non-Neo Cal Christians

    Oh, and how about early retirement to live near the beach and collect seashells? 😉

  48. Does Jonathan Leeman want his church discipline to become the stuff of future torts casebooks? I could see it happening. Just for starters, you could have intentional infliction of emotional distress, invasion of privacy, tortious interference with contract (in the case of business relationships) and a good lawyer could go on and on from there.

    Really, Jonathan, seriously, take it from an ex-lawyer, you all really need to get out of the discipline business. Do you really think you can do it better than the Mormon church did, and it found out back in the late 1980s that dragging a person who just wanted out through a disciplinary court and an announcement at church meetings was not worth the legal hassle?

    (Jonathan and his friends at 9 Marx and other covenant outfits ought to do some reading among the ex-Mormons. They’ve got getting out from under the Mormon church down to a *science.* That stuff is very easily applicable to a 9 Marx outfit. You can get free from that kind of cult!)

  49. I have come to the conclusion through my experience with a wanna be 9 marks church that the only discipline I will respond to is the discipline of my Lord Jesus Christ. With Him it will be merciful, just, and loving. God disciplines those He loves and is the ultimate authority. No church body will hurt my son again.

  50. I had left a church 5 years ago because of this power stuff, unbiblical discipline, temper tantrums and lie after lie from the pastor. Constant cover-up from the Deacons who were suppose to be holding the guy accountable. Since all this I have made a commitment to myself to love His church,to not be bitter or hold a grudge BUT also to NEVER join a church again. I am a regular attendee at a Bible believing Baptist church. I serve where they allow, give enough to pay for the space I take up and am an encourager not a trouble maker. I am free to speak the truth in love. My real ministry lies in my day to day life serving the needs of others and trying to honor my Lord with a clean heart. I give the bulk of the love offerings to independent lay missionaries who ARE doing the real work of Christ and most of all I live in PEACE now that I have made this covenant with myself.

  51. I completely agree that the heart of the problem is they will not define exactly what qualifies a person to be church disciplined. They cannot define it, because these decisions are made on a whim. “You don’t know the whole story”, must be in the church discipline handbook. Sounds similar to the verse that “love cover a multitude of sins”….the verse the pastor gave the congregation the night our family was disciplined out. The verse was read as the reason why they did not need to reveal our “sins” to the congregation. Sounds so loving of them to keep our sins private, huh??? My husband and I no longer believe in church membership. We are free to answer to God alone, who knows our hearts.

  52. GC wrote:

    The obsession with disciplining people is really quite astonishing.

    My thought exactly. They keep bringing the subject up over and over and over …
    I have 40 years experience in church “leadership” and this came up rarely, not even once a year, more like once per decade. (scare quotes because I don’t like the word leadership)

    Either they have an unusual massive number of bad cases or they have an unusual desire control. The label Pharisee is thrown about loosely yet I can’t think of a closer understanding of who these people are.

    They “sit on Moses’ seat, so practice and observe whatever they tell you—but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice. They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. They do all their deeds to be seen by others”

    They pray “God, I thank you that I am not like other men”

    They would say “he would have known who and what sort of woman this is who is touching him, for she is a sinner”

    They “love greetings in the marketplaces and the best seats in the synagogues and the places of honor”

    They “devour widows’ houses and for a pretense make long prayers”

    What happened to “Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.” ?

  53. @ Darlene:
    “When the Master returns, though, what exactly will you say to Him to explain the fact that during by far the largest portion of your lovemaking through the years, your sword was sheathed, scrupulously kept from your lover’s womb?”

    LOL!!!! SOOO many jokes could be made from this……..

  54. @ Corbin:

    And those guys write their prose with all seriousness. It is bizarre!

    I couldn’t read the entire article. They add SO MUCH to the scribsher that is not there.

  55. Donna wrote:

    most of all I live in PEACE now that I have made this covenant with myself

    I’ve come to share many of the things you speak of and hope to find the same PEACE you mention, thanks for the encouragement.

  56. The good news is, at my recent church membership class, no mention of covenants or church discipline, just an “application” where the only weird questions were asking what my last church was and when I was baptized. That said, other red flags were raised, but at least I can duck out if things get too bizarre since church discipline hasn’t been brought up.

    My take on this: If you resign and you’re placed on “retroactive discipline” like Karen, why in the world would you go to the church that placed you under discipline?

    And if they try to harass you outside of church walls, treat it as exactly that – harassment. Block their emails and social media accounts if they try to pester you through those sources, and report them. Hopefully they’ll get the hint and it doesn’t escalate to restraining orders against the pastoral staff, or the church sending Gospel-centered tough guys in black sedans to “discipline” you.

    It might also be wise not to mention your new church (if any) on your social media so the old church can’t track you that way.

  57. ‘They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them’:someone famous said that!

  58. My son goes to church with some of these men from the Baptist seminary you are talking about. I cautioned him about being friends with them and what they say. His group of singles at his church met and decided what they would do if certain things came up with these students. Luckily I have a very good relationship with my son and he feels free to talk with me about things that bother him. I think that if the matter of church discipline ever came up he would talk to me about it.

  59. I just tweeted the following to Mark Dever:

    “Sound doctrine would demand addressing 1 Tim 5:20 before Matthew 18. Did you lead off with discipline of leaders? ”

    My comment never appeared. Dee, as you create the membership/discipline resource page, you might consider dedicating a post to 1 Tim 5:20. With your (relatively) open communication with Leeman, you might solicit a public statement from him regarding the 9Marks official position on the biblically mandatory public rebuke of leaders and what safeguards a church should have in place to ensure a sinning elder/paster cannot weasel his way out of it. Integrity would seem to demand that before the sheep are subjected to Draconian measures, the leaders should first lead the way.

  60. Quite frankly, if there is a brother/sister who finds fault with Mez McConnell’s God-glorifying message from Titus concerning this subject, a bit of transparent examination of the heart is necessary. May we continually examine ourselves in light of the perfect Word.

  61. “Here’s why I think church discipline has become such a big deal:
    The neo-Cals have spent the last number of years announcing so many doctrines that are ‘non-negotiable’ fundamentals to being Christian that the list is almost as many as their are names”

    I think attached to this is the desire to build churches and institutions that survive across multiple generations. Which in some ways is laudable – the problem is how they go about it.

    The other issue here is that as these institutions get larger they fall prey to the same problems that institutions everywhere do (which you’d think Calvinists of all people would understand) – so where exactly is the protection for whistle blowers? When the church becomes worse on average than similar examples in the corporate world truly the children of the world are wiser than the children of the kingdom.

  62. Ray wrote:

    Quite frankly, if there is a brother/sister who finds fault with Mez McConnell’s God-glorifying message from Titus concerning this subject,

    Ray
    There is only one way for me to examine Mez’s words and that is in how they are applied. Then I get to see the real heart of the pastor. There are far too many dude bros who can preach it well but abuse it when it is applied. For me, words have become cheap. The actions are the key.

  63. Chris E wrote:

    When the church becomes worse on average than similar examples in the corporate world truly the children of the world are wiser than the children of the kingdom.

    The church has continued throughout the millennia without the church covenant. The church is also self protective when it comes to child sex abuse. The church is led by sinful human beings, not *anointed* god men. We must remember this when we give to much power to fallible humans.

  64. harley wrote:

    His group of singles at his church met and decided what they would do if certain things came up with these students.

    I would love to hear about some of the topics they have discussed. If you feel uncomfortable about sharing it on the public forum, you could share it with me in private and be assured of strict confidentiality. It would be helpful for me to know some of their thoughts. dee@thewartburgwatch.com

  65. harley wrote:

    My son goes to church with some of these men from the Baptist seminary you are talking about. I cautioned him about being friends with them and what they say. His group of singles at his church met and decided what they would do if certain things came up with these students. Luckily I have a very good relationship with my son and he feels free to talk with me about things that bother him. I think that if the matter of church discipline ever came up he would talk to me about it.

    I am sorry for your son…..I was in a SBC seminary in the 80s. It was awful then. I can’t imagine how awful it would be to deal with those goobers going today….

  66. AnonInNC wrote:

    My take on this: If you resign and you’re placed on “retroactive discipline” like Karen, why in the world would you go to the church that placed you under discipline?
    And if they try to harass you outside of church walls, treat it as exactly that – harassment. Block their emails and social media accounts if they try to pester you through those sources, and report them.

    AnonInNC wrote:

    It might also be wise not to mention your new church (if any) on your social media so the old church can’t track you that way.

    That is precisely the road Karen was going down. She had asked the to leave her alone and they kept escalating. They were talking about her in large public venues and sending missives to thousands of church members. She was planning on legal action when Matt Chandler decided that they had gone too far with this nonsense and decided to apologize. That was a wise move on his part.

  67. lanie wrote:

    I completely agree that the heart of the problem is they will not define exactly what qualifies a person to be church disciplined.

    I am so sorry to hear about your recent unjust discipline. Please let me know if you would ever like to tell your story. It will help our readers to learn how to avoid a similar situation.

  68. Donna wrote:

    My real ministry lies in my day to day life serving the needs of others and trying to honor my Lord with a clean heart. I give the bulk of the love offerings to independent lay missionaries who ARE doing the real work of Christ and most of all I live in PEACE now that I have made this covenant with myself.

    Thank you for this lovely comment. You sound like one smart lady!

  69. Thanks Dee. You are correct, time and action are the evidence of the words spoken. I would ask our bros/sis to remember the faithful shepherds who aren’t necessarily sitting on a stage but are laboring in grace with disciplinary issues in their local body. This is an issue that will continue to be in the center of the room as our culture continues to grow in its hedonistic, anti-authority mindset. This is the society that people are saved out of with hard presuppositions that must be shepherded with love, sometimes strongly.

    b>@ dee:

  70. marquis wrote:

    No church body will hurt my son again.

    And we will make sure that is the case! We are behind you 100%. What they did to him is amongst one of the more despicable things I have heard! And I have heard it all.

  71. Bill M wrote:

    Either they have an unusual massive number of bad cases or they have an unusual desire control. The label Pharisee is thrown about loosely yet I can’t think of a closer understanding of who these people are…

    Everything you said is so true. The term “Pharisees” comes to mind almost every time I read about the things they are doing a promoting.

    Like you, I have been in the church a very long time. And “church discipline” has just never been a big issue, probably because we’ve never had a pastor or elders who felt the need to control people. The problem with these guys is, they don’t tell people what sins will be addressed with “discipline.” So it’s entirely up to them, and frequently ends up being the “sins” of “sinfully craving answers,” “questioning God-appointed authorities,” and “refusing to be pushed under our ‘care.'”

  72. dee wrote:
    The church has continued throughout the millennia without the church covenant. The church is also self protective when it comes to child sex abuse. The church is led by sinful human beings, not *anointed* god men. We must remember this when we give to much power to fallible humans.

    That was partly my point – that one would have thought that Calvinists of all people – who believe in total depravity – would realize that their own institutions were as likely to be prone to error as any other large institution.

    [About the church covenant thing, the lack of it meant something quite different in the era in which there was only one local church. I don’t think it is necessarily a bad thing – I think the issue is that it is being laid upon a fairly authoritarian attitude to start with. 9Marks without a church covenant would still suffer from the same issues. They would just manifest themselves differently]

  73. Bill M wrote:

    I have 40 years experience in church “leadership” and this came up rarely, not even once a year, more like once per decade. (scare quotes because I don’t like the word leadership)

    Me too, I despise how it is used referencing a few in what is masquerading as the Body of Christ.

  74. dee wrote:

    She was planning on legal action when Matt Chandler decided that they had gone too far with this nonsense and decided to apologize. That was a wise move on his part.

    I am sure he would have not wanted the discovery process. After all, that “whole story” they could not tell might have come out.:o)

  75. Janet Varin wrote:

    “Sound doctrine would demand addressing 1 Tim 5:20 before Matthew 18. Did you lead off with discipline of leaders? ”

    Not going to happen with this bunch. From seminaries like SBTS to the teachings of the Neo-Cal ‘Apostles’, it is taught that ministers are God’s anointed mini-Popes and are rule rule over the sheep and not to be questioned by them. Part and parcel of being a Neo-Cal Apostle is never casting doubt on a fellow ‘Apostle’, much less criticize them. Strangely, this rule did not exist in the Apostolic Age since Paul was perfectly willing to call out Peter regarding his unwillingness to dine with Gentiles. That courage must now be anathema since now if an ‘Apostle’ (CJ) commits major sins he simply runs to another ‘Apostle’ to hide behind their skirts. Members of the Neo-Cal Klub are exempt from any discipline.

  76. My opinion is that these men enjoy these so called conferences around the world on the churches dime. They enjoy a healthy salary along with the adoration of their congregants and slap each other on their backs in the good old boy men’s club. Their wives submit because they want to be financially secure and enjoy being stay at home mothers and have no clue what it means to work. They get to homeschool their children and get together for ladies day out sipping coffee and tea sharing in the homeschooling with one another’s children. They share in baby items children’s clothes give each other bridal and huge baby showers. The women are no different than the world. I’m sorry but I have seen this and I am a fan of stay at home moms but think about this. Why would wives speak up when abuse is going on why would they rock their cosey little christian suburbia worlds? To me most of these women know the deal and they love their statuses in the church. Not all believers are this way but there are far to many who go along to get along. Chris E wrote:

    “Here’s why I think church discipline has become such a big deal:
    The neo-Cals have spent the last number of years announcing so many doctrines that are ‘non-negotiable’ fundamentals to being Christian that the list is almost as many as their are names”

    I think attached to this is the desire to build churches and institutions that survive across multiple generations. Which in some ways is laudable – the problem is how they go about it.

    The other issue here is that as these institutions get larger they fall prey to the same problems that institutions everywhere do (which you’d think Calvinists of all people would understand) – so where exactly is the protection for whistle blowers? When the church becomes worse on average than similar examples in the corporate world truly the children of the world are wiser than the children of the kingdom.

  77. Ray wrote:

    This is an issue that will continue to be in the center of the room as our culture continues to grow in its hedonistic, anti-authority mindset. This is the society that people are saved out of with hard presuppositions that must be shepherded with love, sometimes strongly.

    That may be true, but it is also true that there are many like me who have no problem with proper authority but who resist improper authority, and rightly so. These guys have not demonstrated that they have the authority they claim for themselves. The problem that Church Discipline people we are talking about do not apply the rules to themselves first and are being hypocritical. They talk about everyone *but* their own failures. Therefore, what they have to say on this matter carries no weight with thinking people. Lest you think I have no concern with people in ministry, I have very personal concerns with people in ministry and the challenges they face. Those persons are appalled at the actions of these self-anointed Church Discipline gurus and their failures.

  78. “…Discussed my concern with the way John Folmar, BFF of Mark Dever, applied church discipline in Todd Wilhelm’s situation. Leeman answered with the infamous line that Matt Chandler tried in the beginning of the Karen Hinkley saga.

    You don’t know the whole story.

    Leeman appealed to confidentiality. So I contacted Todd and told Leeman that Todd would sign a release to allow Folmar to discuss this situation in public

    Leeman was not amused. He asked me who I would appoint to adjudicate the conversation.”

    Does nothing happen over a cup of coffee with these guys, as equals? So used to being on top they can’t stoop to the common man and have a conversation? This is the Church, for God’s sake, not the darned inquisition.

    Most folks joining a church don’t expect the Spanish Inquisition.

  79.   __

    “After T.U.L.I.P. ™ ?”

    hmmm…

    After T.U.L.I.P. ™ We’re gonna let our hair down,
    After T.U.L.I.P. ™ 
    We’re gonna shake, jump and shout like King David did!
    After T.U.L.I.P. ™ 
    It’s gonna be ‘Good Preachers’ (r)  N’ Jesus’ and His ‘Good News’ ™ all the way!
    After T.U.L.I.P. ™ We’re gonna let it all hang out!
    After T.U.L.I.P. ™ 
    We’re gonna certainly gonna raise some talk N’ suspicion,  give a seminar, 
    We certainly found about what it’s all about,
    After T.U.L.I.P. ™ 
    We’re gonna get some satisfaction,
    We’re gonna put this  religious merader dead guy out,
    Yeah, You bet, no joke, we found out what this freakish ‘historical theistic horror show’ (r) is all about,
    After T.U.L.I.P. ™  we’re gonna let it all hange out,
    hum, hum, hum…Yeah, after T.U.L.I.P. ™  Baby, we’re gonna let the ‘WORD’ (c) get out! [1]

    You Bet!

    HA HA !

    Dis 16th century theologian guy made God Almighty, a murder like Satan himself, Oh Joy?

    What?!?

    “The Thrill Is Gone”(c), huh?” A case of mistaken identity?, Whoops’

    Cue da Good Angels!

    (grin)

    Sopy  🙂
    ___
      [1] lyrics above sung to Eric Clapton’s “After Midnight” tune ; Writer(s): Joeri Alderliesten, John Davies Cale, John J. Cale, Bob Neuwirth, John W. Calek
    Copyright (c): Mijac Music, Talpa Music, John Cale Music Inc., Warner-Tamerlane Publishing Corp., Dry Clam Music; U.S. Title 17 Fair Use, for Religious Parody, All Rights Reserved; YouTube ™: ‘After Midnight in STEREO – Eric Clapton 1987 version’, 
    the audio was dubbed in from the Crossroads(C) box set – After Midnight in STEREO over this Eric Clapton’s 1987 video version, which came up a little short because they had edited the original music video. To keep the song unedited, a Clapton picture was added at the end. URL, 
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=szRNqPBmqDw

    Cheers! 

    ;~)

  80. Thank you Dee, yesterday I cried out for the first time and asked God to being more warriors to defend the abused. I read about the boys being abused by the Syrian military while our men and women were left to hear the screams. I was so angry and it brought me back to the night where my son couldn’t cry out to me I was in the other room. To this day I live with the knot in my throat the sickened stomach and things like this that trigger that night. I don’t mean to sound so dreadful but it’s what I live with and I try so hard to not think about it. So yesterday I thought of the verse again in Exodus ” you are not to mistreat the widow and orphan if they cry out to me and I hear them my anger will burn hot”. I cried out for those boys because maybe, like mine they could not cry out to God or didn’t believe they could so I cried out for them. I believe we need to cry to the Lord for the abused and go as far as to ask for His anger to burn hot against those who perpetuate evil against the vulnerable. It was a good to release some of the pain and ask God for justice for protection. The church prostituted my child for their money and reputation. My lamenting my anger is not one of wanting bad to come to them but I want them held accountable just as we all are when we harm others. It would have been better had they stayed out of it. Instead my former pastor has had an agenda since day 1 and now that I have realized this I am sickened and livid. He is still trying to persue us I have ignored his calls and will continue to do so. dee wrote:

    marquis wrote:

    No church body will hurt my son again.

    And we will make sure that is the case! We are behind you 100%. What they did to him is amongst one of the more despicable things I have heard! And I have heard it all.

  81. marquis wrote:

    The church prostituted my child for their money and reputation. My lamenting my anger is not one of wanting bad to come to them but I want them held accountable just as we all are when we harm others.

    One of the biggest problems we have in Christendom right now is that many are convinced that wanting justice is wrong. They equate justice with the victim wanting vengeance. I believe they totally misunderstand Jesus Christ on this.

    Someone harming others then saying sorry has become the Christian idea of both repentence and justice. And those who protect them or advocate for those who harm are enablers and assessories.

    It is calling evil, good. And good, evil.

  82. Yes you are right! I was told from day one that I was bitter and angry right along with unforgiving. I endured seven months of this before finally leaving because they wanted me to bring my son to his perpetrator and his family to forgive. That was it and I told pastor ken that they could have the church and we were leaving. Every elder and deacon knew what happened and chose to stay silent. They may as well have held my son down while he was assaulted. Every single one makes me sick and I’m sorry but more compassion for my son has come from regular Christians and unbelievers then these sick men and women who care more about their churches and life than those who suffer. As long as it’s not them they sit judging and shaming. Well no more!!! Dee I want so much to tell this story and I’m dying for the day you can tell it with me. At least when it gets out it just may spare one more mother of what I live with. I wouldn’t even wish this on those who have hurt us. lydia wrote:

    marquis wrote:

    The church prostituted my child for their money and reputation. My lamenting my anger is not one of wanting bad to come to them but I want them held accountable just as we all are when we harm others.

    One of the biggest problems we have in Christendom right now is that many are convinced that wanting justice is wrong. They equate justice with the victim wanting vengeance. I believe they totally misunderstand Jesus Christ on this.

    Someone harming others then saying sorry has become the Christian idea of both repentence and justice. And those who protect them or advocate for those who harm are enablers and assessories.

    It is calling evil, good. And good, evil.

  83. Dee wrote:

    Leeman appealed to confidentiality. So I contacted Todd and told Leeman that Todd would sign a release to allow Folmar to discuss this situation in public. Leeman was not amused. He asked me who I would appoint to adjudicate the conversation.

    My guess is that anyone Leeman found acceptable would have to be one of the Gospel Glitterati or someone who aspires to be one of the club. And since when does a simple conversation have to be adjudicated? I can’t remember any time in my long life where I’ve had to have a conversation adjudicated. What does that even mean?

    These guys are stuck on their own importance and Spiritual Authority and their appeal is to men who are insecure about their own significance or men who desire to rule over others. Authority is the only category they have. They do not have a category for “improper male authority” if said male authority agrees with them on their non-negotiables. No doubt they will expound at length on Hebrews and submitting to spiritual authority when the text says nothing about obeying or submitting or “spiritual authority.” They make stuff up shamelessly.

  84. marquis wrote:

    I was told from day one that I was bitter and angry right along with unforgiving. I endured seven months of this before finally leaving because they wanted me to bring my son to his perpetrator and his family to forgive. That was it and I told pastor ken that they could have the church and we were leaving. Every elder and deacon knew what happened and chose to stay silent. They may as well have held my son down while he was assaulted. Every single one makes me sick and I’m sorry but more compassion for my son has come from regular Christians and unbelievers then these sick men and women who care more about their churches and life than those who suffer. As long as it’s not them they sit judging and shaming. Well no more!!! Dee I want so much to tell this story and I’m dying for the day you can tell it with me. At least when it gets out it just may spare one more mother of what I live with. I wouldn’t even wish this on those who have hurt us

    I am so sorry that you and your son were treated this way. It makes me sick. My mind cannot even comprehend their stance.

  85. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    What I find funny about this whole thing is how, after essentially inventing “church discipline, this crowd now has to spend so much time and effort going far, far beyond the Bible to make sure it is done just right and no-one messes it up. That is often a good sign that one has embraced an unbiblical concept.

    A very good observation.

  86. AnonInNC wrote:

    It might also be wise not to mention your new church (if any) on your social media so the old church can’t track you that way.

    Extremely wise advice!

  87. Gram3 wrote:

    And since when does a simple conversation have to be adjudicated? I can’t remember any time in my long life where I’ve had to have a conversation adjudicated. What does that even mean?

    “White man wants everything in writing, and that’s just so he can use it against you in court.”
    — Billy Jack

  88. Abi Miah wrote:

    I am so sorry that you and your son were treated this way. It makes me sick. My mind cannot even comprehend their stance.

    I can. Off the top of my head…
    Your kid getting raped was Fleshly; we’re Spiritual(TM).
    We’re God’s Speshul Pets (honorary doctorates and all); we have More Important Things to Concern ourselves with. Like YOU getting Uppity.
    Bible-verse proof texts and zip codes about Rebellion, Bitterness, and Tithing.

  89. lydia wrote:

    Someone harming others then saying sorry has become the Christian idea of both repentence and justice

    My NPD brother was a master at milking “harming others than saying REALLY REALLY SORRY” for all he could get. He could even turn the remorse on and off like a light switch.

  90. JeffT wrote:

    Not going to happen with this bunch. From seminaries like SBTS to the teachings of the Neo-Cal ‘Apostles’, it is taught that ministers are God’s anointed mini-Popes and are rule rule over the sheep and not to be questioned by them. Part and parcel of being a Neo-Cal Apostle is never casting doubt on a fellow ‘Apostle’…

    Don’t forget developing an appetite for fresh juicy Mutton.

  91. lanie wrote:

    I completely agree that the heart of the problem is they will not define exactly what qualifies a person to be church disciplined.

    Like “Hooliganism” in the Russian penal code.

  92. @ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:

    “essentially inventing “church discipline, this crowd now has to spend so much time and effort going far, far beyond the Bible to make sure it is done just right and no-one messes it up.”.
    ++++++++++++

    imagine all the jobs that can be created!

  93. Janet Varin wrote:

    I just tweeted the following to Mark Dever:
    “Sound doctrine would demand addressing 1 Tim 5:20 before Matthew 18. Did you lead off with discipline of leaders? ”
    My comment never appeared. Dee, as you create the membership/discipline resource page, you might consider dedicating a post to 1 Tim 5:20. With your (relatively) open communication with Leeman, you might solicit a public statement from him regarding the 9Marks official position on the biblically mandatory public rebuke of leaders and what safeguards a church should have in place to ensure a sinning elder/paster cannot weasel his way out of it. Integrity would seem to demand that before the sheep are subjected to Draconian measures, the leaders should first lead the way.

    This concept of integrity really is fundamental.. The longer I live, (I am now 55), and experienced allot, both in “Christian circles” (fundamental baptist, through evangelical and mainline protestant), University politics, and business world, ( I have been involved in start-ups), I keep coming back to the “best of men are men at best”, and I have not seen much of a difference in behavior in leaders in each of the these three “worlds” there are leaders of integrity, and those that aren’t and being “Christian” does not guarantee anything… Without independent oversight/accountability, ALL of the system will have leaders that go off the rails…

  94. P.S. In my book, being a “Spiritual Leader” is something earned through their “fruits” which has very little to do how well they “preach” or how many people attend their “preaching”… Again, some of the most aggressive/obnoxious people I have known were “preachers” and some of the kindest/loving leaders were definitely not proclaiming Christians
    So, my question in all of this is who gave the 9Marks/SGM/Piper/Gospel Coalition their authority??? In my “ECO” Presbyterian Church, our pastor each Sunday we are all “priests” since we believe in priesthood of the believer, and we have elected elders.. I sure would not sign one of those membership covenants….. they sure have not convinced me they have any authority over me.. any more than any other body of believers

  95. As a very mediocre former MBA student, I think all the case studies / good advice in the world wouldn’t make any difference to these people. I mean, what are our goals here–a slightly kinder or more rational authoritarianism? As an outsider to this whole religious subculture, I am inclined to dismiss it all as unsalvageable, and steer people to more balanced versions of Christianity (if Christianity is what they want–I’m a Buddhist myself). Sure, I’d love to see case studies, but I’m sure the leaders of these groups would not, and the biggest impact would likely be on outside perceptions and/or encouraging dissatisfied members to leave (like the blogs of dissidents and ex-members).

  96. @ Ray:

    “…faithful shepherds who … are laboring in grace with disciplinary issues in their local body. This is an issue that will continue to be in the center of the room as our culture continues to grow in its hedonistic, anti-authority mindset. This is the society that people are saved out of with hard presuppositions that must be shepherded with love, sometimes strongly.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++

    well, this sounds ‘christian’. but is it true?

    “hedonistic, anti-authority mindset” — isn’t it possible that what you describe is actually so-called ‘shepherds’ having assumed new and more authority in people’s lives, and it feels weird, not quite right, unhealthy, invasive, unnatural, and therefore people balk at it?

    I don’t see an anti-authoritarian mindset at all. I see a weird, neurotic controlling authoritarian mindset amongst the ‘shepherds’, and in response a healthy and reasonable ‘I don’t think so’.

  97. @ Lydia:

    dee wrote: “She was planning on legal action when Matt Chandler decided that they had gone too far with this nonsense and decided to apologize. That was a wise move on his part.”

    Lydia wrote: “I am sure he would have not wanted the discovery process. After all, that “whole story” they could not tell might have come out.:o)”
    +++++++++++++++++

    I wish she had. the cockroaches didn’t even have to scurry. as it stands now, the village church is still crawling with them, in their button shirts with contrasting-colored t-shirts. as is every church in its influence.

  98. @ marquis:

    “My lamenting my anger is not one of wanting bad to come to them but I want them held accountable just as we all are when we harm others.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    can this be done? don’t analyze your motives. justice and accountability are right, correct, and appropriate. your motives are not part of the equation.

    I even think humanity, animals, plantlife, etc. are affected negatively, bear a burden of sorts, to the degree justice is not served.

  99. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    And they say never to click “Post Comment” whilst drunk. What do they know?</blockquote
    Bulbeck, see if you can get yourself properly muddled in the grapes by finding a bottle of 2014 (old vine) Hogshead Shiraz. It's blended from x3 South Australian wineries and I dare say the best drop I've had in the last ten years. And not expensive at $15 bottle. My first sip was like "wow".
    **sorry to all Baptists/I think I have probably been drinking crap wine until now/I declare I have no pecuniary interest

  100. elastigirl wrote:

    can this be done? don’t analyze your motives. justice and accountability are right, correct, and appropriate. your motives are not part of the equation.

    Many Christians have been taught to feel guilty if they want justice.

  101. Lydia wrote:

    Many Christians have been taught to feel guilty if they want justice.

    I think this is part of the culture that has crept in. Just apologize and everything goes away, if you are one of the right people. The important part is who are the right people. If you were never “in” then you will be “out” forever and your trespass will be thrown in your face till you pass from this earth and they will bring it up at your passing.

    But if you are part of the “in crowd” all that is needed is the handy apology™ and poof any wrongdoing is gone and they even send the enforcers out to make sure it is gone.

  102. @ K.D.:
    if you ask me, I think the whole ‘control-patriarchy-discipline’ thing is unChristian bullying

    sure, it’s sick . . . fear of loss of control rules the day

    these are ‘power’ cults, not ‘churches’

  103. @ marquis:
    You brought tears to my eyes. Your poor boy. it is beyond horrible that this has been dealt with badly. These types of offenders would be dealt with more stringently if they’d committed adultery with someone else’s spouse. This is a huge & disgusting blind spot for those who claim to love justice.
    I wish for much better days for you & your son, far far away from this pain.

  104. Better days are coming and we have had many good days. There are times when it hurts so much but I as a mother get through. My son is the courageous one and he is amazing. He handles it much better than I do. There was a moment when I was told by a pastor at a church we tried to attend that our former pastor said my son was a homosexual by saying this was two boys fooling around . I lost it and for the first time I couldn’t take communion. My wonderful son walked up to me put his hand on my shoulder and said ” it’s ok mom it’s time to let God defend me”. That day was the first day my son had taken communion since the week of his rape. He told me in the Sunday service a few weeks after his assault that he couldn’t take communion because he didn’t trust God. This was incredibly moving and was one of those momentsin life that I could not have been more proud of my son for his courage. Beakerj wrote:

    @ marquis:
    You brought tears to my eyes. Your poor boy. it is beyond horrible that this has been dealt with badly. These types of offenders would be dealt with more stringently if they’d committed adultery with someone else’s spouse. This is a huge & disgusting blind spot for those who claim to love justice.
    I wish for much better days for you & your son, far far away from this pain.

  105. I just listen to the verbiage. “Shepherds” “sheep” and cringe. The “sheep” have no rights. But why should they? God’s kingdom is not a democracy. Right from the beginning there was the “King” (not Elvis) then the priestly chosen tribe the “Levites” and then the “people”. These days it’s become more feudal in nature (perhaps a holdover in middle ages thinking when the “true church” held sway). God is the King (figurehead maybe) then the Pastor (regent), then the sub-Pastors (dukes), then the elders (retainers) then the “sheep” – peasants who are expected to tithe to their liege lords and submit to their God-given authority. Notice I said “Lords” not ladies – women and kids are mere chattel, sort of on par with the pastors “BMW” steed. Why anyone would abrogate their hard won rights in a 21st century liberal democracy is beyond me but Willa Appelt in her book “Cults in America” and Michael Shermer in “Why People Believe Weird Things” both speak to it more eloquently than I.

  106. Jack wrote:

    Why anyone would abrogate their hard won rights in a 21st century liberal democracy is beyond me but Willa Appelt in her book “Cults in America” and Michael Shermer in “Why People Believe Weird Things” both speak to it more eloquently than I.

    All you have to do is haul out a few proof texts from Scripture, convince them it’s the words of the Almighty himself, and then admonish them of where they’ll spend eternity for non-compliance, and voila!, compliance is guaranteed.
    In my opinion, both Catholicism and Protestantism are still reeling from the Enlightenment, and that’s a good thing because it forces a rethink of what the purpose of religion is:
    Like the sabbath, is it made for God? Or is it made for man so that he can better respond to his divine image within and build a better world?

  107.   __

    “Beware Of  A Contract In The Hands Of  An Angry Authoritarian 501(c)3 New Reformed ‘Church’ Leader?”

    hmmm…

      Sènior Todd,

    Hey,

      Da UCCD bookstore has created a Mahaney book section in your honor.   🙂

    Happy Holiday!

    Όχι ένα πράγμα έχει αλλάξει.

    “I tried to understand dis Calvinsta preacher, (Really, I tried to leave…)
    I thought that he was out of his mind,
    How could I be so foolish (How could I)
    To not see Mahaney was the one behind church bookstore counter, 
    So still I kept on fighting
    Well, loosing every step of the way,
    I said somethin’ again,  
    Thinking things would change,
    But nope, things still stayed the same,
    Yeah they was dancin’ and singin’ and movin’ to the groovin’
    And just when it hit me somebody turned around and shouted
    Play that funky Calvinesta theology,
    Play that funky Calvinesta theology right,
    Play that funky Calvinesta theology church boy,
    Lay down the boogie and play that funky Calvinesta theology till you die
    Till you die, ya
    Till you die… [1]

    (grin)

    ATB

    Sopy
    __
    [1] Lyrics adapted for religious parody use: Wild Cherry: “Play That Funkey Music’ ; 
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qe1ScoePqVA
    © Sony/ATV Music Publishing LLC. ; All rights reserved, U.S. Title 17 infringement not intended. Fair Use, for Religious parody.

    ;~)

  108. Jack wrote:

    Right from the beginning there was the “King” (not Elvis) then the priestly chosen tribe the “Levites” and then the “people”.

    I need context in order to better understand what you are saying.

    The beginning, where? Jesus as King and Apostles as Levites? Or are you referring to the current Neo-cal stuff going on?
    Sorry if this is clear to everyone else but me. I’m just glancing in at the conversation during a non-busy moment.

  109. __

    JeffT wrote:

    Janet Varin wrote:
    “Sound doctrine would demand addressing 1 Tim 5:20 before Matthew 18. Did you lead off with discipline of leaders? ”

    JeffT: “Not going to happen with this bunch. From seminaries like SBTS to the teachings of the Neo-Cal ‘Apostles’, it is taught that ministers are God’s anointed mini-Popes and are rule rule over the sheep and not to be questioned by them. Part and parcel of being a Neo-Cal Apostle is never casting doubt on a fellow ‘Apostle’, much less criticize them. Strangely, this rule did not exist in the Apostolic Age since Paul was perfectly willing to call out Peter regarding his unwillingness to dine with Gentiles. That courage must now be anathema since now if an ‘Apostle’ (CJ) commits major sins he simply runs to another ‘Apostle’ to hide behind their skirts. Members of the Neo-Cal Klub are exempt from any discipline.”

    SPOT ON.

  110. @ Muff Potter:

    “…the Enlightenment, … it forces a rethink of what the purpose of religion is:
    Like the sabbath, is it made for God? Or is it made for man so that he can better respond to his divine image within and build a better world?
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    dang, muff, i love that.

    perhaps it shows my ignorance, but I’ve never heard it articulated so simply like that. i’m copying it into a doc i have of things i want to remember.

  111.    __

    “RethinkING Of What The Purpose Of Religion Is ?”

    hmmm…

    Muff,

    You said: “Like the sabbath, is it (ed. religion) made for God? Or is it (ed. religion) made ‘for’ man so that he can better respond to his divine image within and build a better world?” 

    IMHO Neither, Religion was made ‘by’ man to achieve what he can not; that is reach God.

    I wish them good luck, to those who try.

    “I am the door…” Jesus said.

    ATB

    Sopy

  112. __

    “Trick Or Treat?”

    hmmm…

    These New Calvinist men hide being masks that conceal the true nature of their god & their religion. The god these men believe in, according to their doctrine, ‘murders’ certain ‘planned’ individuals — their future in hell, –men and women ‘prior’ to creating them in the womb. Even Satan, with all of his EVIL wiles, does not posess the power to do that. For over 500 years, the ‘church’ Jesus created, certain of them have believed and propagated this heinous Calvinist doctrine. Does their god have a pointy tail?

    Beware!

    (sadface)

    Sopy

  113. “13. They fail to truly love the sinner . . . by not begging the Lord for his or her repentance.” So much of this is absurd, but this would really got me. They other members in good standing must pray for the repentance of the wayward member? What in the world does that mean? Have I misunderstood? Am I so confident in my freedom and redeemed state that I fail to get this? Why would the other members need to beg God for the repentance of another? Did not Jesus already accomplish this? These 22 points make my head hurt, and I fear they may make God’s heart hurt Heavy sigh…

  114. AnonInNC wrote:

    , or the church sending Gospel-centered tough guys in black sedans to “discipline” you.

    Reminds me of Doug Phillips’ goon squads who showed up at people’s doors, reportedly.

  115. Lori Copeland wrote:

    Am I so confident in my freedom and redeemed state that I fail to get this? Why would the other members need to beg God for the repentance of another? Did not Jesus already accomplish this?

    This. Is. It.

    Lori, they do not believe you have the capacity to know this. They do not believe in your “ability” as in free will to respond to truth. They believe God gave them some sort of special anointing (they have the “keys) to rule over others and ascertain their salvic state.

  116. ” US law allows one to resign from a voluntary organization.”

    ought to be case-closed

    I would sue the heck out of any bunch of righteous jerks who tried to intimidate or manipulate me illegally, and so would most Americans . . . I can’t imagine anyone taking any ‘nonsense’ off of these bullies

    Karen probably should have sued for big money just to teach a lesson so that others would not be hurt as she was hurt . . . of course, she is entitled to her own decision on that score, but I do think she missed an opportunity to establish a record as to what CAN possibly be done to stop harassment.

  117. @ Christiane:

    All they have to do is convince people of this:

    “4. They fail to teach new members as they enter the church about the possibility of church discipline, and that preemptive resignations don’t work.”

    What is scary is how many people will believe them…even now. Church is voluntary. Signing a membership covenant is voluntary. But they need to officially resign because they “voluntarily” went along with all these things. Why would the court punish the church when people voluntarily go along for so long? But if the member officially resigns then it becomes harassment, slander, etc.

    I think a legal case needs to happen but the problem there is these charlatans don’t pick on people with means, well heeled contacts and resources.

  118. Lydia wrote:

    I think a legal case needs to happen but the problem there is these charlatans don’t pick on people with means, well heeled contacts and resources.

    That is an interesting point which I have not considered. Do we know of any cases where the target was prepared to sue? A long time ago, MacArthur or GCC was sued for counseling malpractice or something like that. What if a church member harms himself or herself or someone else due to these authoritarians and their actions or words?

    Did you happen to catch any of the conference/strategy session/Chandler rehabilitation?

  119. Lydia wrote:

    Church is voluntary.

    …and women are equal in dignity, value, and worth. Up is down in an upward sense. Inside is outside viewed from the right perspective.

  120. Sopwith wrote:

    Sènior Todd,
    Hey,
      Da UCCD bookstore has created a Mahaney book section in your honor.  

    Thanks Sopwith!

    ATB to you!

  121. So, I just wrote a blog on this topic. So far, the local ” faithful” are shocked this is going on….and I’m in SBC country, East Texas….
    Then again, like the rest of the country, more and more folks are becoming ” Dones.”

  122. @ Gram3:
    Did you see this comment over at SBCToday….

    “Jay Landry – M 27-09-2015, 08:40
    Thank you so much for this article. I, like you, am concerned about the direction that the IMB he heading. Recently, Sebastian, the second now in charge of the IMB, told us at a meeting that we should be able to implement some of the same principles that his past church is Washington D.C, implements. It think it would behoove all of my peers to look at Capitol Hill Baptist Church and the actions of their pastor, Mark Dever. IF we stay, we should be prepared to sign contracts like the ones they use at Capital Hill Baptist Church. It would also be wise for us to look at the 9 Marks organization that will impact IMB strategy. Anyway, that you so very much for voicing on your blog what so many of us want to voice, but cannot at this time. Pray for us. We have hard decisions to make and want to make them in a way that will honor the Father.”

    http://sbctoday.com/binos-minos-and-moore/#comment-50723

  123. Gram3 wrote:

    Do we know of any cases where the target was prepared to sue?

    Oh yes but these were more employment situations not member harassment. Most megas have legal counsel on retainer. The lawsuits never make it to court for many reasons including mediation, settlement, etc.

  124. @ lydia:
    I am getting ready to begin traveling home. I saw this and just about lost my breakfast! Good night! May God have mercy on His church.

  125. Gram3 wrote:

    Did you happen to catch any of the conference/strategy session/Chandler rehabilitation?

    Right now am a bit taxed on self important grown up men ignoring the elephant in the room yet discussing better strategies to ignore said elephant.

  126. @ lydia:
    From what I can tell, the commenter is an IMB employee. He seems to be repeating what the #2 at IMB, Sebastian Traeger, told them. Traeger wants to model the IMB on Dever’s Capitol Hill Baptst principles?

  127. lydia wrote:

    It think it would behoove all of my peers to look at Capitol Hill Baptist Church and the actions of their pastor, Mark Dever. IF we stay, we should be prepared to sign contracts like the ones they use at Capital Hill Baptist Church. It would also be wise for us to look at the 9 Marks organization that will impact IMB strategy

    Pardon my language, but …… Oh, hell NO!

  128.   __

    “The Calvnesta 501(c)3 Church Contract Is Mightier Than The U.S. Constitution?”

    hmmm…

    The ‘ long term’ (r) access to the New Calvnist 501(c)3 religious community is by contractural obligation(s), created by an hired legal service(s). This means ‘lawyers’, not ministers of the gospel of Jesus Christ. 

    What?

    This really smells. Good thing that The Wartburg Watch (and other berean blogs) are putting out the word & warning. 

    This questionable organization (9 Marks) a  like 501(c)3 religious groups Dr. Albert Mohler is involved in, are indoctrinating hundreds of 20 something’s ; creating an army of new impressionable would be religious leaders who would plant T.U.L.I.P.’ ™  501(c)3 religious organized churches here in North America, and infiltrate other as well. 

    Please get yourself a good lawyer before signing anything from these type of ‘T.U.L.I.P.’ ™ 501(c)3 religious establishments. 

    Better yet, run don’t walk to the nearest exit.

    (sadface)

    ATB

    Sopy

  129. marquis wrote:

    Yes you are right! I was told from day one that I was bitter and angry right along with unforgiving.

    You are dealing with this in a much more true Christian way than I would have. I would have been vindictive, maybe to the point of being violent. Wow. Hats off to you and God bless you.

    marquis wrote:

    My son is the courageous one and he is amazing.

    Sounds like your son is also smart! Maybe even wise! God had nothing to do with what was done to your son …. it’s all on evil people using free will to do evil things. I know that your son will never forget what was done to him, so I hope he can find a way to use what was done to grow stronger and closer to God. His experience might even make it possible for him to teach, help, and protect other young people if he feels called to do that.
    Anyway, it sounds like he is going to be okay.

  130.  __

    “Unsuitable 4 Human Consumption?”

    hmmm…

      The content rating on this ‘New Calvinist’ ™  stuff is verified (T) for toxic. Please don’t leave your home without a 501(c)3 ‘mental religion condom’ (r) .

    You’ll be glad you did.

    ATB

    Sopy

  131. @ Stan:
    Hmm. Employee eval based on their interpretation of the “keys” and how well they are following their human spiritual mediator. Will Traeger be one who holds “key” as a VP? Was he there when they knew they were overspending to the tune of about 40 mill Per year?

  132. @ lydia:
    Never heard of Traeger before. It certainly sounds like he is a CHBC/9Marks ideologue, and that is not a good thing for the IMB where people have to work together with people who have a different take on secondary and tertiary issues. For ideologues, everything is a primary issue.

    I’m still looking for the elusive sensible rationale (which is a rationale that makes sense to anyone who is not an ideologue) for replacing seasoned veteran missionaries with newbies in order to make up for the mismanagement of nearly a quarter billion(!) dollars of IMB funds. Math is hard, but it wins in the end, so those of us who learned basic arithmetic know that Platt’s rationale for sacking older missionaries is not grounded in reality but rather in ideology. Same for Traeger’s idea of fundamentally transforming the IMB. Pure ideology flowing from CHBC/9Marks.

  133. And Capitol Hill Baptist is the home church for Senior Pastor Mark Dever and the hub for his 9Marks Ministries with its covenant membership and church discipline emphases. [Sorry, I hit the “Post Comment” too soon. Meant to add that to my previous comment.]

  134. Gram3 wrote:

    Pure ideology flowing from CHBC/9Marks.

    As it once did from Citizen Robespierre and Comrade Pol Pot.

  135. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    And Capitol Hill Baptist is the home church for Senior Pastor Mark Dever and the hub for his 9Marks Ministries with its covenant membership and church discipline emphases.

    And located in the Seat of Power (D.C.).

  136. lydia wrote:

    Right now am a bit taxed on self important grown up men ignoring the elephant in the room yet discussing better strategies to ignore said elephant.

    It’s called “Displacement Behavior”.

    When you’re overwhelmed by something outside of your control, find something you CAN control and Micromanage It To Death. Like having VPs walking around with hair-length rulers enforcing company dress codes while said company is circling the drain.

  137. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    And Capitol Hill Baptist is the home church for Senior Pastor Mark Dever and the hub for his 9Marks Ministries with its covenant membership and church discipline emphases.

    Mark Dever is originally from Madisonville, Kentucky. Gives me a bit of a sick feeling to know that he grew up a mere 45 minutes from where I did!

  138. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    lydia wrote:

    find something you CAN control and Micromanage It To Death. Like having VPs walking around with hair-length rulers enforcing company dress codes while said company is circling the drain.

    ++++++++++++++++++

    Sounds like Rimmer from Red Dwarf. Any dwarfers present?

  139. @ brad/futuristguy:

    Yup from where I am typing now he’s just a few miles away! Man the stories I hear from that place over the years in living in DC are just chilling. I think of it like a mini East Germany with Mark Dever being the theological Erich Honecker.

  140. __

    “Find The ‘Root’ , Find The comon denominator, Find The Solution To The Abuse Within New Calvinist 501(c)3 Organizations And Religious Institutions?”

    hmmm…

    (one step closer perhaps?)

    “Book Review: Facing Up to John Immel’s ‘Blight In The Vineyard'”

    By Paul M. Dohse; The Author: “The Truth About New Calvinism: Its History, Doctrine, and Character”

    Originally posted June 19, 2012 :

    http://paulspassingthoughts.com/2015/08/14/book-review-facing-up-to-john-immels-blight-in-the-vineyard-3/

    Barb Orlowski, D.Min, and author of  ChurchExiters.com states the following in an introduction to said blog:

    “Every year dedicated Christian people leave churches because of spiritual abuse [this is epidemic in our day]. What factors contribute to dedicated and active believers in Christ leaving their churches and becoming exiting statistics? The stories of people who left their home church because of a negative and hurtful experience [more often they are shown the front door] paint a picture of a widespread occurrence, which beckons consideration by church leaders and church congregants alike.”

    Blogger and Author, John Immel saw the picture that Dr. Orlowski describes and even experienced it firsthand. I don’t know what his experience was exactly, and he doesn’t know much about mine either; as he said to me over dinner: “I think we are both past that now.”   Which brings me to something else Orlowski wrote in a recent article:

    “The church should lead the way in uncovering any of these dark behaviors.  The local church has an opportunity to be part of the solution and not part of the problem regarding these covert and dysfunctional issues in the church today.”

    As more people understand what spiritual abuse is and what it is not, then there can be an army of people who are able to help in clarifying many of the confusing topics that get intertangled with this issue (Dr. Barb Orlowski: What Spiritual Abuse Is and Is Not).

    I dare say that John Immel has seen the picture (which is hard to miss in our day), considered it, and discovered the root cause. He has also articulated the cause/root in a way that invokes a Monopoly-like motto: “Do not pass understanding; do not collect 200 issues.”  Now all that’s left is to educate and raise the army.

    Immel has clarified the issue in, Blight In The Vineyard: Exposing the Roots, Myths, and Emotional Torment of Spiritual Tyranny (2011 Presage Publishing). Therefore, the solution is easy: promote education that will lead to a rejection of the root cause. Yes, it can be complicated, but it can also be simple; when you follow and support certain philosophies, either “wittingly” or unwittingly— bad things happen. A certain philosophy, or maybe better said, idea, has always spawned the same results from the conception of Western culture. A counter idea has always yielded dramatically different results deemed favorable by those disposed towards happiness. I have come to believe that America was founded on the counter idea. Consider what Immel writes in the introduction  to Blight In The Vineyard:

    “Blogs made it possible for people to compare notes and connect dots. Suddenly, the pixelated events result into high definition and the picture shows a breathtaking consistency. The stories contain striking uniformity in pastoral conversations and actions. They contain profound similarities in the emotional, spiritual, and psychological pain of those who have suffered.”

    That set me to thinking. How was it possible that from state to state, even country to country, people could recount similar life events with stunningly consistent conversations, outcomes, and backlash? What ideas could produce such underlying fear, anxiety, and spiritual frustration?  What ironclad logic could cause masses of people to act out similar conduct that produces such invasive outcomes? What thoughts that lurk under the titles of authority would lead average men to believe they wield unchecked control over people’s lives? How could a denomination reproduce such unswerving reproducibility?

    Many today ask the same questions. A reader of my blog named Charles posed the same question this way:

    “Have noticed this for a great many years, and my wife and I always wondered…. “What text book on abusing the sheep are all these guys reading from,” because they all acted the same.”

    Right here in this review we see some of what Charles is referring to. Orlowski, Immel, and Charles have never met, but note the similarities in their descriptions and even use of the same words. Nevertheless, here is where I depart for a spell and will return a little later. My perspective has been radically changed by Immel’s book and interacting with him in the arena of ideas. In fact, I have made his book required reading in the Dohse household, and have already led family devotions based on the book’s major theme. I now share my perspective based on additional study/research prompted by Immel’s assertions.

    The least common denominator is the debate over the competency of man verses the incompetency of man. I believe the basic philosophy of Plato is vastly relevant to this debate. Plato saw man as utterly incompetent save those who understood that reality must be ascertained by means other than the senses. In other words, reality, goodness, and truth could not be surmised by observation of matter. He believed that the few who are able to see reality should rule over the ignorant masses who are enslaved to mere shadows/forms of the truth.  Remember also that Plato lived in a culture inhabited primarily by slaves who served the elite. Some historians estimate that 90% of the Greek citizenship during the time of Plato was slaves.

    It is my contention that Augustine (a Catholic Saint) integrated Plato’s ideas with theology and more specifically, Neo-Platonism which later spawned multiple forms of Gnosticism that plagued the 1st century church. The most notable Reformers were followers of Augustine, but the backbone of their theology ‘was the underlying assumption that man was utterly incompetent whether regenerate or unregenerate.’ I believe that Augustine merely exchanged Plato’s concept of reality with “gospel.”  Hence, today we have the elitist gatekeepers of the gospel ruling over the totally depraved.

    Now we can return to Charles, and my reply to his comment:

    Charles,

    John Immel answers that question in his book, “Blight In The Vineyard.” It’s a philosophy that yields natural results, so it’s like they all read from the same playbook.

    The basic philosophy sees freedom of ideas as a danger to civilization and the church. Initially, many buy into it for fear of chaos, but the results are always bad according to history. Ideas are very powerful, and almost always tempt the individual to act upon them. Freedom to interpret reality is a kissing cousin to freedom of ideas.

    The ideas that rule the day also rule the world. Hence, the Reformation was really a spat between Rome and the Reformers about who was going to control the ideas. Both Rome and the Reformers believed that one’s freedom to interpret reality was nothing that should be tried at home by the common people. When man is seen as ‘utterly incompetent to contribute to his own destiny’, love as determinism is the only solution. Visit any of the spiritual abuse expose blogs–the trouble started when people questioned doctrine, or even spoke in way that would enable others to think for themselves. Immel uses happenings at SGM (ed. Now SGC) [a denomination of Reformed Charismatics] to illustrate how this philosophy plays out naturally in real life.

    Later, John Immel contributed some thoughts to Charles’ comment:

    “Charles… I think the answer to the question is … yes, they are reading from the same book. Pastors the world over are pulling from the same intellectual traditions. They don’t pastor in a vacuum. They pastor with the whole history of Christianity hanging in their heads like a fog.”

    Very few people want to reinvent the peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Or maybe better said very few people have the ability to challenge peanut butter and jelly orthodoxy, so they tend to review what has always been said, and emulate those foggy ideas.

    While very, very few people consider themselves Calvinists… (or even know what he really preached, or practiced) with striking consistency they accept many of the Calvinist assumptions, which is to say they accept Augustinian presumptions about life, and spirituality what God intended the “gospel” to mean.

    I have said this in many places… for all of Protestantism’s presumption that they are the authentic real version of Christianity that Catholicism screwed up…. at the end of the day, post Reformation Christian doctrine is metaphysically Catholic, which is to say we are foundationally committed to Augustine’s presumptions.

    The ‘abuse’ is merely the logical outcomes of those foundations. The reason we are circling back around the tyranny of the ages, is because for the first time in American history, our doctrinal thinkers (en mass) without any hesitation, with full ‘moral’ clarity, are advocating the historic ideas that justified the tyranny.

    So yes… they are all reading from the same book…

    Today’s church can stop spiritual tyranny. But it will require agreement on ‘the root cause’. And the root cause is Reformed theology. Wherever and whenever it has been tried, despotism and despair has followed: in Calvin’s Geneva; in Colonial Calvinism; in Confederate Calvinism; in the empty promises of the SDA 1888 conference and the Awakening Movement of the 70’s; and finally, in the present-day Neo-Calvinism  Resurgence—a sectarian beast resurrected by the Reformed theological dream team of the Australian Forum.

    Just like its non-religious philosophical counterparts, classic Calvinists (the original article as opposed to my “sanctified Calvinists” and Immel’s “convenient Calvinism”) think it’s a good idea that has never been done the right way. The philosophy of determinism, fatalism, and the incompetence of the common man is foisted upon the unregenerate by irreligious despots, and by Reformed elders among the saved.

    Immel’s book puts feet on these generalizations. The solution is to shun the philosophy; bad things happen when bad philosophy is followed. And through education, we can raise up Orlowski’s army.

    Whether Geneva Calvinism, Colonial Calvinism, Confederate Calvinism, SDA Calvinism, or Neo-Calvinism, it always has, and always will die a social death due to its gangrenous despotism. We can hasten its rightful death in our day, and prevent future rediscovery movements with the present-day “picture” following. We can give others another way to follow.

    If we can face up to the blight in the vineyard.

    Paul M. Dohse

    Author: The Truth About New Calvinism: Its History, Doctrine, and Character

    ___
    Reference:
    http://paulspassingthoughts.com/2015/08/14/book-review-facing-up-to-john-immels-blight-in-the-vineyard-3/

    ;~)

  141. All I can say right now is that my son was raped by a member in our former neo calvinist church and that the PASTOR /LEADERSHIP treated my baby like trash and prostituted him for the sake of silence in keeping their church in tact while they brought his abuser back 1 week exactly after he raped my son!!!! Eagle wrote:

    @ marquis:

    Marquis…what is your story? Have you told it here? I saw a couple of bits and pieces but what is your entire story? I’d love to hear it.

  142. Very soon the gloves will come off and those standing with me we will be a force to be reckoned with in this matter and the this pastor /elders/deacons and the members who stood by and said nothing will no longer have the luxury of hidingredients behind silence I am going to scream so loud my fellow brothers and sisters who were abused within SGM will hear us. Hopefully this was ok to say Dee….. marquis wrote:

    All I can say right now is that my son was raped by a member in our former neo calvinist church and that the PASTOR /LEADERSHIP treated my baby like trash and prostituted him for the sake of silence in keeping their church in tact while they brought his abuser back 1 week exactly after he raped my son!!!! Eagle wrote:

    @ marquis:

    Marquis…what is your story? Have you told it here? I saw a couple of bits and pieces but what is your entire story? I’d love to hear it.

  143. @ marquis:

    Marquis- I am so deeply sorry. You have every right to feel these things. It is what any normal, healthy parent would feel. You have many standing with you. Not with pitchforks, but with resolution in insisting on what is right and just.

  144. Thank you to all for your support. It means the world to both of us. As I read your posts, I get to learn so much about my sweet brothers and sisters around the world. Please know that there are many wonderful men and women who attend our former church who have no idea what happened. They are in the dark and I in no way link them to the abusive behavior of this churches leadership. I spent 6 years at this church and there are many who are very kind and caring Christians. There are also many who were driven away as we were.

    It's a very painful thing to lose a church family on top of sexual abuse and the betrayal is so hurtful. Many are driven out and wounded. My heart hurts for them but rejoices when God raises women up like the deebs, our attorney, pam palmer, those who speak for the afflicted and abused. Without these men and women where would the wounded find any comfort in God's people? I hope that as I post it doesn't come across as my suffering is anything compared to what my son endured. I assure you it is not, but because we are bonded I feel his suffering or at least what he went through. You see, I was in the other room while he was being violated and to this day I struggle greatly that I could not save my child and he was in so much fear for his life he could not scream so he counted as the rape occurred. My soul agonizes over this in that my sweet boy had to count waiting for it to be over with.

    I had an opportunity to put my hands on the perpetrator when I banged on that door, but all I could think about was getting him away from my son. I share this only to say that my boy did the most courageous thing and that was tell what his rapist did and do it with him right there, even though his perpetrator used some form of weapon to threaten his life if he talked. For victims this is the most scariest and difficult moment as shock set in and fear is present and the shame left after the assault. You see, my son is amazing and I am standing in the gap and where he could not scream I am able to do it and do it so loud that I dare these men who claimed to love my son I dare them to so much as say Boo to him. He has a story to tell and I have told my sweet young man that the shame belongs to his perpetrator and the men who tried to silence him and to say nothing is to act as if he did something wrong. So, we are going against the norm here and I have seen my son's confidence build as he tells those who have asked why we left our former church.

    Brothers and sisters let me tell you my son told one friend that when asked he looked at me I looked at him and I said do you want to tell him? My son nodded and with confidence said:  "We left because I was raped by (perpetrators name) and the church treated me like cr@p." (ed.)

    So, you see the courage and confidence he expressed is amazing compared to what he said after his assault happened. He told me that the best way to deal with it was to bury it deep deep down in his stomach and to never ever talk about it! I am sharing bits and pieces because when Dee shares this story, I want you to know who my son is and what it has taken to bring him from the day of his assault to the incredible young man he is today.

    Elastigirl wrote:

    @ marquis: Marquis- I am so deeply sorry. You have every right to feel these things. It is what any normal, healthy parent would feel. You have many standing with you. Not with pitchforks, but with resolution in insisting on what is right and just.

  145. Pingback: For Freedom Christ Has Set Us Free - Thou Art The Man

  146.   __

    “Contractional Coercion: “We Are Truly Christ’s Ambassadors?”

    hmmm…

      The active support of any theologian (past or present) that advocates the killing of others for the expressed crime of simply thinking or believing differently, negates the core teachings of Jesus Christ.  Since we invariably become like those we follow, shouldn’t we take the greatest care when choosing?

    *

    “Todd Wilhelm, a former member of 9Marks (John Folmar) UCCDubai, had signed the membership contract which stated he would need to join another church as soon as he left UCCD. However, Todd Wilhelm objected to the bookstore that was selling CJ Mahaney books. They would not stop promoting Mahaney’s books, so he resigned as a matter of conscience. Todd wanted to take his time in joining another church. This was not allowed and he was added to the *care list* which means he was headed for discipline. ” -Dee, Wartburg Watch

      Dee, those knowing the fear of the Lord, are encouraged by scripture, to persuade men and women , not by coercion, reminded that God’s Holy Spirit needs no wall to keep the citizens of His kingdom in.

    Are the New Calvinist merly adding another ‘religious brick in the wall’  ?

    (sadface)

    Sopy

  147. “Bits of information have come to light over the last week. 1. JD Greer’s plan for missions is what Platt and Sebastian are planning to use to implement in the IMB. 2. JD is Sebastian’s brother-in-law. 3. Sebastian and Platt have decided to usurp our East Asia leaders and slip members of Sebastian’s church, Capitol Hill Baptist Church, into leadership positions in Shanghai. These leadership usurping decision are occurring worldwide. He doesn’t trust my supervisors to make these decisions. 4. The person who they want to put into this Shanghai position, MC (abbreviated for security reasons), is currently with another non-SBC mission agency (I think I heard them mention Campus Crusade – CREW) 5. They have him on a fast track to join the IMB, even though others are currently waiting years to get appointed. 6. I listen to Platt’s view of the call a while back after it came out. Platt’s sermon on the “Call” has diminished the call to overseas missions to the same call that a plumber would have to be a Christian plumber. 7. They have asked us to not discuss the VRI with anyone we want to, because those to whom we speak may not be “Spiritual” enough to understand. 8. Anyone who signs the VRI will need to agree to the following excerpt from the contract: “Missionaries will not directly or indirectly at any time, make any disparaging remark, either oral or in writing, regarding IMB or any affiliated entity or any of their respective employees, officers, directors, affiliates, or agents, either individually or in any representative capacity. Notwithstanding the foregoing, this provision shall not preclude Missionaries from making truthful statements to any government agency or pursuant to any lawful subpoena.” Page 3 of 5 of Field VRI Agreement and Release. I am planning to get sued by the IMB. I’ll take the money and use it for lawyer’s fees. 9. In the meetings worldwide, Sebastian does a good job of showing his credentials to be a leader of the IMB. He is a graduate of Princeton and was a real good baseball player. People were not impressed. But most importantly, is number 10. Drum roll please. 10. David Platt keeps referring to us as the IMB family. — really! Is this how he treats his family?”

    http://sbctoday.com/binos-minos-and-moore/#comment-50824

    So, If you want YOUR money from being forced out of the IMB, you have to keep your mouth shut. And sign on the dotted line. Just go away quietly after years of investing in your mission work.

    I am not sure how much it would take for people to finally realize just how evil and deceptive the guys in this movement really are. I cannot believe anyone would trust them after years of this sort of thing.

  148. elastigirl wrote:

    @ Nick Bulbeck:
    IHTIH
    ++++++++++++
    in heaven there is hashbrowns?
    i hope that it’s hamburgers?
    intelligent hamsters think i’m hilarious?

    IHTIH = I Hope This Is Helpful.

  149. What is driving the spiritural abuse in today’s New Calvinist churches? Anyone care to take a crack at it?

  150. GSD wrote:

    What is it with Kentucky? It seems to be the epicenter of so much spiritual dysfunction.

    Somebody has to take the title away from California and give us Californians a rest.