Woman crying in church. cotonbro@pexels
“It’s a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don’t keep your feet, there’s no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien
12/23/23 Some people are contacting me from Tenth Presbyterian stating their pastor was not arrested but was merely serve a citation akin to singing hymns too loudly in a park and disturbing the peace. I stand corrected. The arresting officer handed Goligher and gal pal a citation, no an arrest warrant. So now, with that correction, can someone tel me why it doesn’t matter that he had a citation for something to do with sex in the park.
Churches are called to be a light on the hill. One might assume that only good works will be seen when the light shines. There is another thing that happens when the light shines. The spectacle is also seen by all who care to look. Churches want people to know about their church. They want them to come and often advertise all the good things waiting for them in the church.
What is the response of many churches when the ugly is exposed? They want to bury it. They hide in secret meetings and keep private information, all in the name of not spreading bad news about the church. But is that really possible in the Information Age? Are churches aware that there are background check apps available online? The apps also update the information as it is found. The sun continues to shine while many churches attempt to keep things in the dark. Plato got the problem.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”
In some respects, this post reminds me of our first post on Bruce Ashford. He disappeared from his vaunted position at SEBTS and was quietly removed from the list of elders at JD Greear’s The Summit. From this, we learned an important lesson. Church discipline is applied to the little guy, and the big guy gets to ride quietly off into the sunset.
Where is Pastor Liam Goligher, and did he really get convicted of having sex in the park in 2014?
He was the Senior Pastor of Tenth Presbyterian Church. Here is one bio:
Dr Liam Goligher is Senior Minister at the Tenth Presbyterian Church in the heart of Philadelphia, USA.A preacher, writer and broadcaster, he and his staff of over 40 maintain the Gospel tradition set many years ago by the redoubtable Donald Grey Barnhouse. Earlier, Liam has sled the work of Duke Street Church in Richmond, London. He has also pastored churches in Ireland, Canada, and in his native Scotland.
Liam is author of ‘A Window on Tomorrow’, ‘The Fellowship of the King’, ‘The Jesus Gospel – Recovering the Lost Message’ and “Joseph – The Hidden Hand of God”. He is also a radio bible teacher; an evangelist who has spoken at University missions; and a conference speaker at major international Christian events such as New Word Alive and the Keswick Convention. He is married to Christine – they have five adult children.
Congregants of Tenth Presbyterian were told that he resigned this past Saturday night. The timeline goes something like this. Last Thursday,11/30, Goligher posted the sermons he would preach during Advent. On Friday, he resigned. On Saturday night, the church members were told he resigned and that an internal investigation was underway, so folks shouldn’t ask too many questions.
Why? Over the last couple of weeks, my friend at Anglican Watch has posted:
- Was Tenth Presbyterian’s Liam Goligher arrested for having sex in a Lancaster park?
- Tenth Presbyterian’s deaconess Susan Elzey exposed as Goligher’s adulterous partner
- Criminal dockets for Liam Goligher and Susan Elzey
I did not post about this immediately, preferring to wait for more data. On Monday, I discovered:
- Goligher announced his departure at the end of last week.
- His picture disappeared from Tenth’s website.
- His bio was removed from RTS.
- And, as expected, he is still posted at The Gospel Coalition. Those guys still haven’t apologized(at least in public) for their support of CJ Mahaney.
I then knew that the police reports were probably true. Here they are as proof. Place your arrow over the page and swipe to the left.
That criminal code is used for sexual activity, and the location of arrest was in a public park. Good night! Police caught them. Susan Elzey is a long-time deaconess of Tenth Presbyterian. Her picture, but not her name, has been deleted from the website. Since Golligher was in authority over her, it could be argued that she is a victim of clerical abuse, and it is my thought that the quiet investigation might discover this. Unfortunately, she pled guilty, and this is a matter of public record.
I will be interested in learning who is doing the “investigation.” This is not the only problem at the church.
A final thought on “Sex and the Park.”
Any guy who decides he wants sex in public places has a real problem. Folks, this is not normal. It causes me to think there have been other events in this person’s life that would not be considered “in good form” for a minister of the Gospel. No, I do not think it was a one-and-done. This guy is a risk taker, and I suspect there has been more “risky business.”
Final questions:
Who knew about the predilections of Goligher? Did anyone know about his 2014 arrest? What about the elders? Didn’t any of them do background checks? Are they embarrassed that they didn’t do their jobs? Did Dr Ryken know about this? Did any leader decide it should be covered up?
What happened to pastor Caroll Wynne?
I had no idea that there were so many sexual problems in the staff/volunteers at Tenth Presby. I did not know I would write on this subject today, and I apologize for the overview. Wynne and others were discussed in the GRACE report. Yes, you read that right. GRACE investigated because there were several problems. Wynne was the Associate Minister for Pastoral Care. He was also supposed to be the pastoral liaison with the GRACE team. Unfortunately, he was investigated, and things didn’t go well. GRACE asked for him to be removed from that position and would recommend that he no longer be a pastor.
Here is a link to the entire GRACE report that Anglican Watch hosts. Anyone who attends this church should read the whole report. Not only did Carroll Wynne show up in the report, but so did others. It is shocking and is an example of why GRACE is so essential.
The section on Wynne begins on page 44. He slapped the buttocks of students, was accused of having porn on his computer during a church event, placed his hand on the shoulder of a mother to subdue her and who told him to remove his hand, and he did not report an instance of child porn (which is abuse) when it was said to him.
GRACE not only had him removed as Tenth’s liaison to them but suggested some church disciplinary measure, which, in his case, was a firm “See ya later.”
Name after name after name… This should concern members.
Then there were the others…Read the report:
- Carl Staico
- Royson Duvin
- Lucas Saenz
- Pat Canavan
- Unnamed Offenders 1 and 2.
- Bruce Garner
I saved Garner’s name for the end. Carroll Wynne wrote a letter to the judge and asked for leniency for Garner, which can be seen on page 21. This demonstrates that Wynne had no understanding, or even worse, understood but defended an abuser. This hurt the victims who testified. Who were the elders/trustees who observed all this and pretended all was well?
Finally,
What is going on at Tenth Presby? According to this stream of a service last Sunday, they are $900,000 in the hole. It is a church in need of repentance and a reboot. New elders who actually act like elders and watch what’s going on in the church.
Nevertheless, the first step to getting this ship righted is to get a pastor who doesn’t need to have sex in public places. In the meantime, it doesn’t look like Goligher will get a goodbye cake.
“What in the World Happened to Pastor Liam Goligher, Pastor Carroll Wynne, and Others at Tenth Presbyterian Church?”
Before anything happened to these two and others, they colluded with the Dark Side.
So, consequences follow, IOW, “happened”.
Truth be told?
I have no qualms about consenting adults doing the hanky-panky.
It’s older than King Solomon, and it ain’t gonna’ go away any time soon.
But for the love of Mike, be discrete about it!
I’m trying to process all of this. My strongest reaction is personal. I attended and was a member of Tenth Church in college in the James Boice era. I grew up in a United Presbyterian Church and frankly didn’t appreciate how reformed Tenth was until the church left the UP and joined the PCA over the ordination of women mandate in the UP. I guess “Philadelphia Conference on Reformed Theology” just didn’t get through to me.
I left Tenth when I moved out of the city and started attending a non-denominational church in the suburbs. But soon I moved to North Carolina for grad school and found. . . Chapel Hill Bible Church. I became a member there and, like you, Dee, have fond memories of the Abrahamson era. We left before Jay Thomas arrived, but the few return visits we made after Jay arrived convinced us that we shouldn’t go back.
Reading this, looking back at my years at Tenth Pres, and watching the ongoing abuse at CHBC, it seems the through line from Tenth to CHBC is protecting the institution and protecting leadership’s power, with no regard for the damage done to the congregation. To borrow from Diane Langberg, the common denominator is wolves.
Much of Paul’s writing in the NT addresses the wayward leaders and institutions in the early church.
A leader drawing a crowd may not be the Body of Christ. Fact.
Just because a group of people agree does not indicate that God agrees.
The US has freedom of religion. People can meet and believe anything they want to believe. Another fact. And it happens all the time. Nothing sacred about people meeting and believing. Question: is God there? The GIFTS of the Holy Spirit is an indicator according to Rom 12, 1 Cor 12
Eph 4.
Gifts are never salaried, last I checked. In the NT, church workers who traveled from church to church were fed and housed, that’s all. Collections of funds were for the truly needy in the church.
Church as a business is never the Body of Christ.
Hello
I know I left but I came back today to see how things were.
First, my condolences to Dee and her family at the passing of her mum. It is time for grieving and for thankfulness for a life shared and well lived but I’m sure Dee’s faith will uphold and comfort her.
Second, what a shock to read of my FB friend Liam Goligher. I wondered where he’d gone! He was held in high esteem by me so tall this has come as a real shock.
Here is his application for the job at Tenth Presbyterian.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9Np9g_veGLjOWRjNGI2MDUtNjEzOC00NWVlLWIyODctNzMwYmIzYWM0OGJm/view?resourcekey=0-GXdmCMj5ySbSzTvb0Azs4A
“Tall” should be “all”
“In the meantime, it doesn’t look like Goligher will get a goodbye cake.”
I hope to God that he doesn’t someday get a standing ovation after being restored to the pulpit!
Wolves in sheep’s clothing? Nah! The wolves have found it more productive hunting to dress in shepherd’s clothing.
dee,
Out of curiosity, is this the same Tenth Presbyterian from this post? https://thewartburgwatch.com/2018/12/31/what-in-the-world-is-going-with-the-lawsuit-at-10th-presbyterian-church-philadelphia/
Alexandra A,
Yes.
Thank you for both the link and the condolences. Did you ever see any red flags during your time on FB?
Cassie in Chapel Hill,
Thank you for your comment. I dated a guy who attended Tenth when he was at Wharton. I attended the church on two occasions. It sure has a great history although, as you probably know, I am not a Calvinist.
I believe that something is wrong when two people who know this behavior is not condoned by the church in which they are employed do it in such a public manner. Did they want to get caught? Are they engaged in other unusual public behaviors?
And to think you can face stiff fines in Singapore for throwing cigarette butts and chewing gum on the sidewalk!
Max,
Maybe he won’t get a cake now, but he got his cake earlier this year when the church threw a party for the 50th anniversary of his ministry. The solicited the congregation to contribute to a gift for him. They might not have known at that point about the sex scandal (though, why not if they were doing the background checks their policy required?) But even then, they were very much aware of abusive behavior toward congregation members. I know, because I personally told them about it! I also wrote to one of the elders on session and specifically said, “This party should not happen! You know there are problems with this guy, and eventually it will come out that you knew and you threw him a party!”
Muff Potter,
Be discreet about committing adultery? Is that the main takeaway here?
No excuse for the sin of course, but wondering if this behavior is a side product of full time paid ministry? Especially a senior minister in a big church. I mean, how much time does it really take for him to accomplish his weekly duties? I bet most all of the folks posting here work full time (or more) hours and serve in their churches unpaid (I love the comments that say spiritual gifts are not to be sold; I had never thought of that before).
Who of you have spare time for riding the merry-go-round in the park?
Remember that there IS a kink where doing it in public (with the danger of getting caught) IS part of the sexual thrill.
And that Pelvic Issues make Christians crazy.
This is just the flip side of that.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Speaking from someone, a long time ago, went to these types of schools, HUG is correct… The obsession of these types about “purity” actually translates into a HIGHLY SEXULIZED enovironment… much more so than is “normal”..
They were caught in a park in Lancaster, Pa., which is a nearly two hours drive from the church in Philadelphia.
The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is headquartered in Lancaster!
(The Alliance was founded in the 1990s by James Boice, then pastor of this Tenth Presbyterian Church)
The T4G boys club formed while Mohler, Mahaney, Dever, and Duncan served on the Alliance board together:
https://web.archive.org/web/20091228033808/http://www.alliancenet.org/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID307086_CHID798774_CIID1920170,00.html
Goligher had a radio ministry with the Alliance, seems to have ended right when C-19 hit in 2020:
https://web.archive.org/web/20231207180513/https://www.tenth.org/resource-library/blog-entries/no-falling-word-2/
“No Falling Word is a weekly radio broadcast by the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, presenting the biblical and scholarly teaching of Dr. Liam Goligher, Senior Minister of Tenth Presbyterian Church, Philadelphia.”
Goligher was at the disgraced Giarrizzo clan’s church in Gilbert, Arizona this summer for their ‘Building Tomorrow’s Church’ conference for Reformed Baptist youth:
https://web.archive.org/web/20231207080616/https://www.buildingtomorrowschurch.com/btc2023
“Our keynote speakers for the 2023 Building Tomorrow’s Church National Conference include Liam Goligher, senior minister of Tenth Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Richard Barcellos, pastor at Grace Reformed Baptist Church in Palmdale, California and Associate Professor of Exegetical Theology at IRBS, and Peter Sammons, Assistant Professor of Theology at The Master’s Seminary in Santa Clarita, California.”
dee,
Hello Dee.
I didn’t and he was a good friend of an old schoolmate of mine who went to his church. I’m inclined to agree with those who say it’s hard to believe it was a “one-off”. He would have been 63 at the time of the offence and that’s not the time of life where you’re looking for something new (imo), not even in a mid-life crisis.
Last year. Readers here may remember the other two men from TWW’s coverage of ARBCA/Chantry:
https://web.archive.org/web/20231207183335/https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/gap-center-for-biblical-studies-announces-fall-2022-seminars-by-authors-pastors-and-seminary-president-%E2%80%93-all-are-welcome-at-no-charge.109337/
“In partnership with the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, the Gap Center for Biblical Studies located at 866 Chestnut Street in Gap, Pa., announces its Fall 2022 Bible Series seminars featuring seminary president Dr. James Renihan, retired minister and author Rev. David Dykstra, and pastor and author Dr. Liam Goligher.”
Muff Potter,
But I do have a problem if he is a pastor, he is her boss, if either of them is married to someone else.
Jerome,
He also did the following in the UK
While in Scotland, he served on Boards of Trustees of:
Regions Beyond Missionary Union (Scotland)[21][22][23]
Scottish Evangelistic Council This closed in 1997. Some of its functions were picked up by the Colportage Society[24]
Rutherford House,[25] a theological study center which runs the Edinburgh Dogmatics Conference[26]
In England, he served as both Board Member and Trustee of:
Keswick Convention Trust,[27] which runs the Keswick Conventions / Conferences.[28]
Word Alive! an annual conference reaching university students at Easter every year.[citation needed]
Evangelicals Now! A British Christian news outlet.[29] He also wrote the occasional article for this publication, including one called “The DaVinci Con”.[30][31][32]
He served on the council of reference (advisory council) for several charities:
Esperanza Trust, to help the poor in Argentina.[33]
Keychange, a Charity helping the poor and homeless in London and in senior centers throughout England[34]
Pink Elephant/Forbidden Fruit Syndrome like all those Massachusetts Bay Puritan Journals:
“Don’t even think about the Forbidden Fruit don’t think about the Forbidden Fruit don’t think about the Forbidden Fruit don’t think about the Forbidden Fruit don’t think about the Forbidden Fruit…”
And something from an old Internet Monk comment thread:
“Evii is the side most obsessed with Purity.”
Your prophecy came true! Bad-boy pastors stay in the pulpit because yes-men elders don’t hold them accountable. Sounds like Tenth needs to clean house.
On 6thNovember 2023 Tenth Presbyterian informed them by email “of another alleged offender who was a former leader at Tenth and had been accused of behavioural misconduct against a female congregant many years ago”
I guess our views on this are “old school”, Bridget. It’s an old school that goes all the way back to the heart of God.
Whew! Sounds like church leaders at Tenth need to do something more productive in the Kingdom of God, like keep their pants on and fulfill the Great Commission!
The American church needs to get over its fascination with European accents in the pulpit. There was obviously more behind Mr. Goligher than his charming Scottish brogue. I suppose there are some today who are saying “So what?! Perhaps he has a bit of a moral problem, but he sure can preach!”
Lowlandseer,
Did they give a name?
My problem: if the guy had a consensual relationship with the woman at the church, they should have visited an attorney to have that assessed before proceeding. Of course, it is not something a pastor should do- preplan the liaison- but going to the attorney would protect the church from potential lawsuits.
Secondly, because this alleged liaison was carried out in a public setting, he and she demonstrated a penchant for risky behavior. That leads me to wonder, “How many other risky behaviors did he indulge in?’ Usually, an initial encounter with a new person would occur in a discrete hotel room, etc. Something is wrong here, and I believe psychiatry should be consulted.
Nice excuse for a walk in the park…
It looks like they are saying he is a “former” leader. Uh oh-looks like the cake has been cancelled.
Jerome,
Jerome… you are good!
Carroll Wynne is on a paid leave of absence. He has not resigned nor been made redundant.
Lowlandseer,
I agree with you. The blatant aspect of the liaison leads me to recall Iain Campbell.
I was in the last class received into membership by Dr. Boice on 12/12/1999 and am still a member. The recent events and news at Tenth are highly upsetting but not surprising. GOD is still the head of His church! I will continue to pray for the body of Christ and leadership @ Tenth. I am reminded by the words of my older brother who led me to the Lord and is now in His presence. The church is a hospital for sinners! I am by his grace committed to “Press On”!
Because of Him!
Amen, and amen.
Released the day after the incident.
https://www.alliancenet.org/nofallingword?page=29
No Falling Word
The Taming of the Gods
Posted: July 19, 2014
Christians like to place blame on secular education and popular culture, but the church itself is often hostile toward God and disobedient to his Word. Take for example, the Israelites, who tried, quite literally, to put God in a box. Whether the idols in our lives are physical statues or are simply priorities that we place before God, they all share one common trait: they are given life by the people who worship them?
Why is this relevant? See this quoted text.
Would you disclose to us any of the abusive behavior you were aware of? Which elder did you speak to? Did they have anything to say to you?
Oops!
Looks like Potter is in the dog house for a comment about hanky panky.
Yes, we can all agree that it’s not in the best interest to engage in it, but for Pete’s sake, if ya’ gotta’, and are gonna’ do it anyway, be discrete about it.
I stand on my comment.
Liam – whom I don’t know – may have a “kink in his gait.” Most people do, a “chink in the armor” so to speak [ Wartburgwatch commenters are exempt of course. smile]. Or he may be by history a “playah.” Anyhow God has brought him up short in the most embarrassing manner possible – “fallen pastor.” Finishing well is a tough goal to achieve.
Can a Calvinist survive in a Lutheran Church?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCNoIg3tX5k
The church might be a hospital for sinners, but are the patients supposed to go without treatment, and even heal the doctors?
Your individual decision to stay at this “hospital” could be laudable, but you might wish to consider possible damage to others there with you. After all, you are lending the church your good name.
When I was a kid, a youth group volunteer sexually abused me during a retreat, in a Sunday school classroom. Our family stayed at that church for lots of reasons—one of which was secrecy about the abuse. My parents never knew.
Is your church a safe and worthy place for all, right now? I don’t know. I hope you do know.
Muff Potter,
You’re not in the dog house. And, yes, get a room! if your not already married, the boss of the other party, or a preacher who isn’t practicing what he preaches. Two unattached adults are a different story.
If you smile at me
I will understand
Cuz’ that is something everybody
Everywhere
Does in the same language…
Crosby, Stills, & Kantner 1968
Ira,
The following is the email I sent to elder Paul Duggan who was also a friend. My understanding is that he did not attend the celebration.:
“Thank you for the opportunity to meet with you and (your wife) this past Sunday. I know there is a lot on your plate.
I don’t quite know how to voice this concern, but still feel it should be mentioned. When Paul Jones left our church, the real reasons were not disclosed. We were told that he was “pursuing other opportunities.” The congregation gave him a standing ovation, and he was seen off with honor. This became problematic and was seen as very dishonest when the real problems leading to Paul’s departure came to light.
I view this upcoming celebration of Liam’s “faithful ministry” in the same light. I know of the “power plays” or “bullying” that has occurred, driving people away from the church. I know of the volatile temper, the ego, the dishonesty. I myself have talked to multiple elders who have wished or prayed that Liam would leave Tenth or that Tenth could remove him. And yet nothing is done, and the church throws him a party. Just today we received an E-mail soliciting donations toward a gift for him.
How does this not feel like another betrayal to those hurt by Liam as well as those who become aware of his behavior in the future. How is it not another cover-up of Paul Jones proportions.
I know the plans and preparations are in place. It would be an embarrassment to cancel, and Session does not seem able or willing to confront the problem. But I just feel that someone should point out to you how this will look to people if/when these problems come to light. It will be clear to people at some point that session was complicit as they knew of these issues and did nothing while Liam is publicly lauded.
I do not wish Liam ill. I am not motivated by any desire for retribution or comeuppance. But I am motivated by a desire for honesty and transparency.
Do with these thoughts whatever you wish. I do not have any other agenda than to share them with you.
Sincerely,
Karen”
My husband and I spoke with various elders about our concerns over the course of nearly two years including – George McFarland, Carroll Wynne, Bill Langford, Bert Fink, former elder Jerry McFarland, Paul Duggan, Greg Olmstead, and Liam himself. We attended Tenth for 17 years, gave the church tens of thousands of dollars and countless hours of service over that time. We’ve seen dozens of individuals leave the church, and have walked with close friends as they were harassed and berated to the point of finally leaving as well. We spoke with leaders about a lack of transparency and honesty with the congregation, lack of accountability, lack of any female input in decision making capacity, lack of vision and direction, and our own concerns about the preaching.
We loved Tenth Presbyterian Church, and we stayed as long as we did because we hoped to be part of a renewal and restoration of the church to what we had felt it to be early in our time there.
We were eventually removed from ministry, driven out, and eventually excommunicated when one of our children came out to us as transgender.
We have long desired and sought the purity and restoration of the church, but I believe that the only chance for that to happen would be painful honesty, full transparency, and the removal of anyone in leadership who has abused or covered up abuse. I have yet to see any sign of such transparency or true will to change. So I lend my voice to those who are willing to expose the corruption I have seen.
Churches can hire an accountant or a CPA. They can pay a caterer or a janitor.
But Rom 12, 1 Cor 12, and Ephesians 4 list 18 GIFTS of the Spirit to the Body of Christ. Pastor is one. So are evangelist and teacher. Etc. Discernment, a HS gift, may help to sort this out. Come Lord Jesus. Come Holy Spirit.
Same here. Wondering.
All of these salaried “spiritual” gifts are NOT part of the NT church model.
What is legal and what is moral are two different things.
Civic leaders live within civil law.
Spiritual, IOW church, leaders live within moral law. Or, they are no longer or never were spiritual or church leaders. NT fact.
And the paid pastors always seem to have their inner circle. Donors. So a system built on $$$, not the Holy Spirit. Got $$$ to give? You are in: you are the “real” blessed church. Don’t have $$$ to donate? You’re out and not blessed: you can tag along, tolerated but God has not blessed you.
The Body of Christ is 18 GIFTS of the Holy Spirit under the authority of Jesus … that’s the inner circle: the anointing of the HS thus the connection with God Himself. This is the blessing of God in and through members of the Body of Christ. The real deal.
Rom 12, 1 Cor 12, Eph 4.
Zechariah 4 1
I asked the angel who talked with me, “What are these, my lord?” He answered, “Do you not know what these are?” “No, my lord,” I replied. So he said to me, “This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: `Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,’ says the LORD Almighty. “What are you, O mighty mountain?”
Unless the Lord builds the house, the builder builds in vain.
When the rains came down and the floods came up, the house on the sand came down while the house on the rock stood firm.
Every church built on power, personality and money will fail. So says the Lord. Just another sand castle.
And we’re seeing a lot of sand castles come down these days.
“If this plan or action is of men [merely human in origin], it will fail and be destroyed.” (Acts 5:38 AMP)
IMO, not much in the American church these days is of divine origin. We’ve lost our way … we’re playing dangerous games with God in both pulpit and pew.
For the life of me, I don’t understand how we drifted from this core truth about right behavior expected from spiritual/church leaders. I was young and now am old … I never thought I would live to see so many characters we call “Pastor” freely strutting about in sin with apparently no conviction. And to compound the mess, much of the American pew doesn’t seem to care!
As a “flatliner”, to use Roger Olson’s terminology, I am very aware of the problems inherent in hierarchical leadership. My Anabaptist leanings tend to make me suspicious of the status accorded leaders in many churches – which can lead to pride, greed, and the perception of being “special”. I was involved in a Christian organization as a board member and saw first hand the abuse dealt out by the founder who exhibited all the narcissistic behaviors documented here. The outcome of the abuse, spiritual and sexual, on many as I have seen has led to great suffering. Never lightly dismiss the effects of such abuse which take a long time to recover from. I am still in contact with one of the victims whose strong faith has been a mainstay even though she suffered from PTSD for several years.
“When Simon saw how the Spirit was given through the apostles’ laying their hands upon people he offered them money with the words, ‘Give me this power too, so that if I were to put my hands on anyone he could receive the Holy Spirit.’ But Peter said to him, ‘To hell with you and your money! How dare you think you could buy the gift of God! You can have no share or place in this ministry, for your heart is not honest before God’.” (Acts 8:9-25 Phillips)
“The more Pious, the more Perversion.”
Can a Calivinst survive in a Truly Reformed church?
When everyone is trying to be More Calvinist than Thou?
Cronyism, authoritarianism, criminality, and abuse also happen in churches that are led by volunteer pastors. Some of these are in individual congregations. Some are in denominations.
Covering expenses (as in the Bible) is payment—ask anyone who has volunteered and paid their own way.
I get it, we’re all tired of the aircraft and huge houses and gargantuan salaries.
But there is no perfect formula. Paying pastors does not guarantee corruption. Having them volunteer does not guarantee safety and purity.
For what it’s worth, I have known someone who worked as a modestly paid pastor and later as a volunteer pastor. He was the same person in both churches. He had faith and integrity, and no aircraft.
Perfectly said, thanks Max. I have been reading WW for about 3 weeks now. It is a consistent source of distress, the scandals I mean, but also a great encouragement at the same time, to hear from sober-minded, like-minded people.
There is much of the ‘New Testament’ that I only take with a few grains of salt.
Covering expenses is not a salary, not a wage.
Churches have different models, yes, and different budgets and can afford to pay for different things.
However, there is no question that pastoring, teaching, and evangelizing, etc., are GIFTS of the Holy Spirit.
No one pays for a gift. Paying for pastoring is not from the Holy Spirit. Maybe the person does different stuff for payment. But pastoring is a GIFT of the Holy Spirit.
Ava Aaronson,
Thank you for your encouraging responses to my post. WW has been so good in helping me feel “not crazy”. I live in a part of the US that has frequent severe thunderstorms. I do storm spotting for my county. We use ham radio to share our storm reports with the National Weather Service, and since we are all on the same radio frequency, everyone hears everyone’s information. When you hear everything freely, you feel you belong fully. When information is not freely shared in the church, it is at best a form of public relations, and at worst deliberate deception. I personally reject the line from A Few Good Men “You can’t handle the truth!”. Give me all the truth, and I’ll decided if I can handle it or not.
Another thing to consider: despite the abuse of the “trademarked Gospel” there really is a gospel. It really does include realizing some actions we may love to take, even think are part of our very being, are sins according to God, the only One who gets to define what is sinful. And then it does include real repentance, which really is turning from that sin. Not that any of us can do it perfectly, and many of us stumble and fall more than we walk, but we have to be willing to be changed into a morally clean person, and have to be making the effort in that direction. And it also includes recognizing that our GOOD deeds, our righteousnesses, are like used sanitary supplies in God’s eyes. Which really does bring us around to throwing ourselves on the mercy of God in Christ as our only hope.
Most folks today want to know how to be healthy, or wealthy, or popular, or have someone give them fellowship when they go to church. Those may be good things, but the purpose of the church isn’t to give you that. (They are side effects so to speak.) The purpose of the church is to give you the real unvarnished untrademarked GOSPEL.
But that doesn’t put butts on the bench, pennies in the plate, or give the sound preacher bragging rights. So they give the American pewsitter exactly what they want. Motivational, feel good, spoon fed drivel.
Thank you for this. I’ve been trying to reconcile our viewpoints and experiences, and this captures it for me. A person might receive a calling from the Holy Spirit to serve in the ministry—a gift. Later, they might (or might not) receive a salary for working for a congregation, hospital, school, etc.
Paying for the gift is impossible. But the attempt to pay is bribery, not salary, in the Acts verse Max quoted: “Peter said to him, ‘To hell with you and your money! How dare you think you could buy the gift of God! You can have no share or place in this ministry, for your heart is not honest before God.’” Surely all of us scorn the idea of people buying their way into the ministry and expecting power and riches.
I appreciate you, and value the chance to think about things in new ways. 🙂
… are easier to find on Christian watchblogs than in most churches
ChrisW,
““You can’t handle the truth!”. Give me all the truth, and I’ll decided if I can handle it or not.”
+++++++++++++++++
what shysters.
hiding behind God while infantilizing people so as to shield themselves from accountability & protect what’s theirs.
Good grief… no one needs a faith manager
(yes, hire someone to help with taxes, cut your hair, and repair the roof. but not your faith —
it’s yours just as much as your children are yours, your body is yours, your career is yours, your life is yours….
don’t give your faith to someone else to manage and decide for you.) generic ‘you’
Muff Potter,
my theology is treating people the way i want to be treated.
so darn practical.
guards against “biblical” cruelty, selfishness, and “biblical” crimes against all that is good and right, let alone the laws of the land.
and guards against neuroses and paranoia.
and makes for a life on the happier side with healthy relationships.
and helps me sleep nights.
What happened? 9 years of coverup. *mic drop*
“Jarrett Booker, a father, husband and pastor of student ministry and worship at Nashua Baptist Church in New Hampshire, left his family, friends and church community with a double dose of shock and grief after he died by suicide two days after being fired for allegedly sexually abusing minors. He was 37.
Booker’s death was announced by the elders and deacons of Nashua Baptist Church in a statement on Nov. 29.
“Regrettably, on the evening of November 27, Jarrett Booker took his own life, refusing to face the consequences of his actions. This event added immeasurably to the complexity and pain of the situation,” the elders and deacons said.
“Nashua Baptist Church unequivocally condemns all forms of abuse.”
elastigirl,
Same here.
Jesus would shout Amen to that! He taught:
“In everything treat others the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the essence of the Moral Law and the writings of the Prophets.” (Matthew 7:12 AMP)
It’s more than a “Golden Rule” … it is “the essence of all true religion” (Matthew 7:12 Phillips)
Your “theology”, Elastigirl, is the correct one.
Multiple millions across the planet will be doing just that tomorrow as they gather in their church of choice. But, is it’s God’s choice?
Exactly.
The thing I cannot wrap my brain around is how the exploits that get covered on this blog are so out of the ordinary, to say the least. How can any Christian think for a second that these things should be covered up? Child abuse, grooming, bullying, spiritual abuse, sex in the park? Not that any sin is acceptable, but I can at least relate to certain temptations. By God’s Grace I hope in a million years these things would not cross my mind or the mind of any “normal” human.
The only way the other elders can tolerate this, or any congregants can remain in the church, is if they are just as twisted. Am I right? Is “fear of man” or the “sunk cost fallacy” that powerful?
Thx, I appreciate you, too.
Nothing in Jesus’ ministry and the disciples ministry is built on money (NT). This is the opposite of most churches in our US communities, where the money must flow for anything to happen.
If a church can afford to maintain buildings, and hire lots of staff for various tasks, that’s their economic situation. They have those choices available.
Not every Christian group or community has these choices.
However, the 18 GIFTS of the Spirit to the church have nothing to do with money, tithing, payments, salaries, benefits. Rom 12, 1 Cor 12, Eph 4.
No one in God’s kingdom is denied any spiritual benefit in this day and age due to lack of funds. Everything available for faith formation is provided by God FREE. There is one caveat, though … the printed Word of God … the Bible.
I’ve always felt that churches should give away Bibles. Many do.
George,
I’ve felt the same as you.
A friend observed that most normal church leadership and org members focus on the survival of the org, as they turn a blind eye to the underbelly of predators seeking shelter in a blind-eye org.
Sickening but true.
There is much commentary that I only take with a few grains of salt.
The Bible, IMHO, is like the Torah. The sacred Word of God.
Meanwhile, re: the Talmud, written by religious folks, as in commentary, I take with a grain of salt. Just like Christian lit.
Coverups make it easy for members to assume the best, to volunteer, give money, invite their friends and neighbors. The whole congregation, unwittingly or not, gets pulled into a conspiracy.
At my childhood church, nobody wanted to admit that the youth group volunteer and the janitor were molesting the young girls. How embarrassing! Shut your mouth! Besides, look at what the girls were wearing!
Meanwhile, I was so naive that I did not know what had happened to me. I retained a blind loyalty to that church (but eventually moved away).
It took several decades for me to understand what had happened to me, and to see that my name and time and spiritual and emotional health have value. I have a choice to stay home or go someplace healthier.
This is one of my blind spots. I have never attended a church that had fees for things like Bible study or a book group (paid for book only). Members are used to things being free. I think we actually share your attitude that things should be free—even though voluntary donations do pay for some salaries and buildings.
From what you have said, you have attended churches with a fee-for-service model. I really do sympathize.
Ava Aaronson,
The Bible is a great and wonderful thing, no question about it.
But I also feel that it suffers from two great ills.
Not giving it the credence it deserves at one extreme, and making way too much of it at the other.
Thx, but no sympathy.
We’ve experienced the range. No regrets. From meeting literally under a tree, to Hollywood worthy stage presentations. Can God be present across a spectrum of church varieties? Probably. Certainly church people mean well with their money, salaried staff, buildings & campuses, accoutrements, entertainments, aesthetics, creature comforts, events, and performances.
The point is, as Rom 12 & 1 Cor 12 & Eph 4 indicate, that there are 18 GIFTS of the Holy Spirit given to the Body of Christ, IOW Church, that no amount of $$$ can buy. One of the GIFTS listed is pastoring, by the way.
Maybe that entitled “pastor” is paid for his/her professional career role and services as:
– counselor
– spiritual director
– administrator ( … administration is also a GIFT of the Holy Spirit, NOT to be bought or sold)
– social worker ( … mercy is a GIFT of the Holy Spirit to the church, not to be bought or sold)
– event planner
– teacher ( … teaching is also a GIFT of the Holy Spirit to the church not to be bought or sold)
– motivational speaker ( … exhortation or encouragement is a GIFT from the Holy Spirit to the church, not to be bought or sold)
– community leader
– club organizer
– gatekeeper ( … discernment is a GIFT of the Holy Spirit to the church not to be bought or sold)
– etc.
Notably, the gift of discernment would address many of the situations covered here at TWW. God gives the GIFT of discernment to the Body of Christ. Is anyone listening? Too busy paying for and listening to “pastors” or other “GIFTS”, which actually can’t be bought or sold.
Healing is a GIFT from the Holy Spirit to the church, not to be bought or sold; together we pray and ASK God for healing. We have our career medical family doctors; we pay for their professional services. Both, and.
Karen Walton,
I had no idea Tenth did this to you and your family and it frankly leaves me disgusted. I always wondered why you and your family left. Now I know you were pushed out and it breaks my heart. You deserve an apology. You guys gave so much of your time and energy to Tenth for so many years and did try to enact positive change for the better, I was a witness to that. Clearly you were right about Liam and leadership. I pray for healing and peace for you and your family going forward. Learning this has been the final straw in me giving up hope for Tenth and wanting to permanently distance myself from it.
Sincerely,
a friend.
Jeffrey J Chalmers,
You have just defined body theology.
Both used. But in only one case, their services are paid for.
Nothing from the Holy Spirit to the Church can be bought or sold. Fact.
In participating in churvh fellowship, the question is, is God there? How do we even know if God is present, if we are just paying for, buying and selling, a bunch of stuff? Nothing in the NT church is bought or sold.
I come from near Richmond and this gives me worries for people I may have known / people they know (it’s a politically and culturally influential region).
George,
“The only way the other elders can tolerate this, or any congregants can remain in the church, is if they are just as twisted. Am I right? Is “fear of man” or the “sunk cost fallacy” that powerful?”
++++++++++++++++++++++
sunk cost fallacy, definitely.
i thinks church is institutionalized co-dependency.
-pastors to parishioners – i need you to emotionally need me.
(to justify their existence, their paycheck, morphing into their own validation, self-esteem)
-parishioners to pastors or the institution – i need you to functionally need me (for one’s sense of purpose, validation, self-esteem)
pastors and parishioners to God – i need you to need me (for all the same reasons)
God is the ultimate taker in this twisted arrangement.
how this happens: you can convince many people of anything using the concept of God. even oneself.
This one saddens me, but not because I have any affinity for Goligher. I’ve heard him on the occasional podcast, but that’s about it. However, I’ve been blessed by Jim Boice’s teaching, and to see this historic local church exchange good preaching for the appearance of intellectual spirituality is lamentable.
I work in HR and deal with extramarital workplace affairs fairly regularly. I’m in Healthcare, so power differentials and dynamics are my bread and butter. From a very distant perspective, this looks more like a standard (??) affair than spiritual abuse, but I don’t have all the facts. What is troubling is the number of instances on record with the staff. Is this the current leadership culture at 10th? I know of one other church that had this number of similar situations: Richland Creek Community Church (SBC) in Wake Forest. Their elders did a phenomenal job of covering the situation up, quietly dismissing the pastors, and disciplining any member who asked too many questions. Though the head pastor has left, some of the sycophantic staff still remain. I’m sad to think that it’s only a matter of time before it happens again there, and the same could be written for 10th Avenue if things aren’t dealt with in a decisive manner.
Agree.
Interesting background & expertise. Interesting perspective.
It’s been my experience that most spiritual intellectuals are more intellectual than spiritual. Intellect has nothing to do with wisdom. Bible knowledge is no substitute for knowing the Lord. Speaking ability does not mean you speak for God. Too many American pulpits are populated by men who have a touch of charisma, a gift of gab, and dark hearts.
Actors on a stage are supported by an audience willing to buy tickets to the show. A bad-boy pulpit can only exist if the pew allows it. The American church needs to stop justifying such behavior with “I know Pastor has a bit of a hanky-panky problem, but the man sure can preach!”
Good Lord, what happened to the quest for purity and holiness in the American church?!!
Here is a mathematician, world known scholar who makes a lot of the Bible, word by word, speaking to a crowd of intellectuals, scholars, etc. Dr. John Lennox. No fool, and he makes everything of each word in the Bible. Seriously. However, unlike some “Bible” “teachers”, Dr. Lennox is no cherry picker, no charisma conman, no gold digger looking for a payout, etc. He has a career and makes a fine living, without creating a dynasty out of what he has to share.
https://youtu.be/0FmO2XKMe6g?si=FcYnM16scXPRTtgf
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of mankind. And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not grasp it.” – from John 1.
“John Carson Lennox (born 7 November 1943) is an Irish mathematician, bioethicist, and Christian apologist. He has written many books on religion, ethics, the relationship between science and God (like his books, ‘Has Science Buried God’ and ‘Can Science Explain Everything’), and has had public debates with atheists including Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens.
“He retired from professorship where he specialized in group theory. He is Emeritus Professor of Mathematics at the University of Oxford, an Emeritus Fellow in Mathematics and Philosophy of Science at Green Templeton College, Oxford University, and has worked as adjunct lecturer at Wycliffe Hall, Oxford University and at the Oxford Centre for Christian Apologetics. He is also an Associate Fellow of the Saïd Business School and a Senior Fellow at the Trinity Forum.” – wikipedia
Americans are getting the best church money can buy. Put some moolah in the plate and expect the preacher to make it all good for me with God. Expect the preacher to hold my hand in the tough times and stroke my ego to make me feel good. And yes, in that sense we do have the best money can buy. Fog machines, laser light shows, cry on cue, great sexy dancers and fantastic musicians, etc. Best money can buy.
That isn’t church, though. It is the best show money can buy but it isn’t church.
You (generically speaking) simply CANNOT outsource your relationship with the Almighty. You cannot pay someone to repent for you, believe for you, or amend your ways for you.
Here is an anonymous shareable link to all the county info gathered thus far on the Goligher-Elzey case, including the Signed Ordinances (clearing up confusion around 98-19 B):
https://cryptpad.fr/drive/#/2/drive/view/TQTMAjAY9YZP9AcBCTj2MEN3WsYkwKBjo3kXHWRwoaM/
“Go back, Jack, Do It Again,
Wheels turning round and round…”
“Org” is also Clamspeak (Scientology inner-ring language) for a Scientology “franchise campus”.
That fact adds a little black-humor depth to your statement.
Ava Aaronson,
Am I supposed to be awed by one of the gods on Olympus? (so to speak)
Karen, my family knew your family, but we had no idea that you were excommunicated (like really excommunicated??) after your teen came out as transgender. If you’d be willing to share about that, we’d like to know more. It saddens our hearts, because we saw your passion for the things of God, and for helping your teen, and we don’t understand why you would be excommunicated for something that was happening for your near-adult teen. Perhaps it makes sense to not allow a young person who appears to be living in sin to be a legitimate member themselves, but to excommunicate any of the family, especially the parents? It is confusing to hear of.
I am so, so sorry. What they did was anti-Gospel and despicable. If you would ever like to tell your story, please let us know. dee@thewartburgwatch.com
Muff Potter,
Let’s just say that Dr. Lennox and I are mutually awed by the Word of God, word by word.
Of course, not everybody shares this awe.
And there are those who weaponize God’s very own words, as the enemy did to Jesus in the Wilderness and to Adam and Eve in the Garden. So there’s that.
Some day there will be an accounting. Lord, have mercy for the weak and do justice with the proud.
Well stated. Thx.
Reading this resonates in many ways. I observed narcissistic behaviour in the leadership of my church of 45 years ( https://www.newcastlebaptistni.org/ ), with abuse of power, bullying (one of the preachers is funny, entertaining in public but ultra domineering – a number of church members have described to me how he made them feel). But there is no accountability nor leadership, so it gets worse. They forced me to resign. Actually, I am glad to be free from the culture. But am wounded and disillusioned now. The weakness and likely effects of an independent church structure.
Something I see happening in the reporting and response to this tragedy over and over is an equating of the entire church to the most visible members of church leadership.
If this is a coverup and not “just” (in quotes because I know this is a serious thing in and of itself) a failure of church leadership to update background checks, then it’s possible only a few people knew about this. Does Tenth have issues in leadership beyond Goligher? Obviously. Do those issues extend to a conspiracy-level corruption of the majority of leadership? I don’t feel like I’ve seen evidence of that. And if that is the case, I pray that the Presbytery’s investigation will reveal it so that it can be dealt with appropriately.
If you’re “on the ground” at Tenth, you’re seeing a lot of people diligently serving each other and the city every week. As far as I’m concerned, THAT’S the church. Do we walk away from that? Stop serving our church’s children and neighbors because a few people in public positions were shown to be other than what they claimed to be?
In comments above, I’m seeing talk about light shows and showboating that convince me that some of the people commenting must never have attended a service at Tenth. It’s comforting for people on the outside to look at a situation like this and say, “Oh, this guy was clearly in it for the power and status from the beginning. I wouldn’t have fallen for this.” And maybe it’s comforting to think that. But the truth is that someone can be hiding sin and not have it stamped on their forehead.
No one I’ve spoken to in the church is anything less than devastated by what’s come to light. No member in my circle is wanting this swept under the rug or is mourning over the “embarrassment this is for the church.” We’re grieving at the reminder that sin can infiltrate at any level, and we’re hurt that someone who baptized our children and comforted us in our losses was apparently deceiving us from week to week.
Most of us did not have contact with Liam one on one, but please believe me when I say that most of us had no way of knowing what was going on. (You may at this point bring up one person who publicly criticized Liam, and my response would be that if you had seen the letters this person delivered to my home, you would not have considered his testimony reliable. In hindsight, he may have been right about Liam in some ways, but no one who received the letters he sent the congregation would have had good reason to take his accusations seriously.)
Think I’m twisted if you want. I can’t stop you. But why assume the worst of those of us not at all involved. It feels like throwing salt in the wound. We’re supposed to be brothers and sisters. Mourn with us. Don’t condemn us. We’re the church.
– One of many
R,
“Perhaps it makes sense to not allow a young person who appears to be living in sin to be a legitimate member themselves”
++++++++++++++++++
given the circumstances, seems utterly & senselessly cruel to the young person & the whole family.
I do put moolah in the plate, because I expect the church to do good works, like feeding the hungry… a dozen congregations built a homeless shelter in our town. Our members take turns cooking the food and staffing the place.
The pastor does hold my hand in the tough times. That seems like something Jesus did after his friend Lazarus died.
We have no dancers, no fog machines or lasers, nothing sexy, no pumping up of egos. We have a piano, an organ, sometimes some string instruments.
Do you believe me?
K,
No one is condemning you and others who serve in lovely ways. That is the way of all churches. The tithers are the ones who serve. Leaders should lead. Given the GRACE report, there are multiple problems. Then you have Laim and Susan. As for Phil, I have seen many letters from him and have concluded that the leadership unfairly handled him. There is much pain there, and it has not been dealt with. There is a lot of pain in the church. I believe your leaders enjoyed the title and did not work to prevent what happened to a well-known and respected church. I sat in your church as a visitor in the past and liked it.
It would help if you eliminated the current leaders, found the people working in the trenches, and had them lead instead.
I think there are things that can be done to protect membership or whatever the agreement is for membership, but I totally do not agree with what appears to have happened and I am very interested in hearing the full story. I hope Karen will post again.
Can anyone tell me if there will be a celebration for Liam? When is it? What are the parameters of the celebration? Will Susan be present?
Interesting idea: Wouldn’t it be better for the young person to be encouraged to attend church so that they would hear the church’s view on the matter? By excommunication them, you throw away any possibility of that. There are better ways t o deal with these things. Get leaders who really care about people.
Alan C,
If you would ever like me to do a post on this, let me know. dee@thewartburgwatch.com
There will probably be something in the park.
This would be a great leadership model for most churches! Too many elders hold that title because they are popular, powerful, wealthy, pastor buds … not because they are spiritually qualified.
Characteristic of churches built around the charisma and celebrity of the man in the pulpit.
Ava Aaronson,
Fair enough Ava, fair enough.
Thank you for being kind.
K,
Hey “K”
Thanks for responding to my comment. What you are saying makes sense. Plus the fact that you read and comment here shows me that there are people that “get it” at Tenth. I do not agree with all the comments here but please understand the frustration that a lot of Christians feel when we read these accounts. I believe that a lot of that frustration is indeed mixed with mourning. The other thing I would note is that comments like yours are rare….. where a member would agree with the seriousness of the issues and also speak of their love for that local body and desire to continue serving.
So I apologize for the broad comment. I meant it as a question. BTW I have attended Tenth and have been to PCRT. I think Dee would welcome any comments from more people like you and the leaders at Tenth as well. It is often the dead silence that leads to what you see from the commenters here.
Muff Potter,
My pleasure. God bless.
Dee, I think you and elastigirl misunderstood my words. Membership is totally different than being an attendee. I can see why Tenth leadership might not what a trans person to be a MEMBER. But I cannot see why they would discourage a trans person from attending. I would like to hear more about this specific story from Karen.
George,
Perhaps there are not replies by Tenth members because they are not seeing this post yet? Or because they are in shock and just dealing with that? I am a former member of many years. I know many former members (many who left because of problems they were seeing for years) and I know many current members. I can assure you that every member I know is appalled and shaken, and wants to see serious change, especially in how complaints are handled. The recent GRACE report included interviews with many many members of Tenth. Any involved saw the report as soon as it came out. Many have come forward before the GRACE report to speak about issues we have seen with certain individuals (leaders or predators) at Tenth. Many more may come forward, especially as the GRACE report has become public to everyone, not just members (thanks to Anglican Watch), and also because Goligher has resigned. Until the GRACE report, many people had no place to lodge their complaints. In the past, I had tried telling elders of issues I had seen and had myself, but often they seemed very ill resourced to help. Some of us are encouraging the session to have an ongoing hotline involving a non-biased outside agency ongoing so that what has happened cannot happen again. There have also been suggestions that if there is a crime (such as theft), local authorities always be involved (following Romans 13). Tenth is a unique congregation and there are many loving people within it who have had no idea about what has been going on or how people have been treated, till now. I have hope for change.
Dee,
Clarifying points to update / correct to your post’s content:
The Gospel Coalition removed Goligher from their website shortly after being informed about his resignation.
This was not an arrest – just as getting pulled over for speeding is not an arrest. Those terms on the docket are legal terms. The Chief has stated that this was 99% not an actual arrest. (so no detainment, no fingerprinting, no photographing)
I am surprised that neither defendant had their record expunged.
“The Gospel Coalition removed Goligher from their website shortly after being informed about his resignation.
This was not an arrest – just as getting pulled over for speeding is not an arrest. Those terms on the docket are legal terms. The Chief has stated that this was 99% not an actual arrest. (so no detainment, no fingerprinting, no photographing)
I am surprised that neither defendant had their record expunged.”
____________
Ira, I appreciate the clarifications. When talking about people’s sins; “err on the side of mercy.”
Max,
What I further wondering is if we are only seeing some much exposed these days is the result of social media/blogging like TWW, and just the general “put it out there” these days…. I suspect that in the past, there was just as much “stuff”, it was just better covered up… think good old Ravi.. I bet he was always CORRUPT….
I know that my experiences with fundy, campus ministries, etc. decades ago left me walking away scratching my head.. why I am seeing all this “stuff” that is inconsistent with what “trying to follow Christ” means to me, yet no one seem to care… except me??? People seemed to just roll their eyes and say, “there goes Jeff again”… I also want to make CLEAR.. I am no saint.. just that I expect better out of my leaders..
There is no doubt that Christian watchblogs have exposed the dark side of doing church in America. And there is no doubt that bad-boy church leaders have always worked the church to their advantage, beginning in the first century. The same Hell awaits 21st century pulpit imposters that first century bad actors have been experiencing in agony for 2,000 years … Hell is eternal punishment.
Burwell Stark,
Alan C,
This is the way it is. In one of my worst church rows attracting the attention of the national press there were seven factions, none of which I could identify with and most of them were (and still are) very wrong about some things. In all my old churches most of the goings on were ambiguous, or not overtly aggravated, by the average theological standards of the time or now. I left a certain church when a truly kind lady who was genuinely an excellent preacher told me “the nasty people have left” when I knew full well it had been a four way split.
I read in an interview with Adrian Warnock from when LG was at Duke Street that he considered himself “semi cessationist” and was leaning towards Mahaney, and towards the then Virgo group (who proved close to the Smyth clan), at that time; his tone in it was highly organisational.
With hindsight of my itinerary I think that kind of iron fist in velvet glove and stifling atmosphere doesn’t help the congregation to help the higher-ups. That way, an organisation simply labelled a church can become a common or garden backdrop for average rates of affairs similar to society. But when the celebs clap each other on the back “before it comes out” surely their rank enabled them to know a little more background a little sooner than our average congregant did? Perhaps the Mahaneys et al were dropping daring hints?
Virgo, Zacharias, Stott, Nouwen, Vanier, Schaeffer – this backward reader sensed gobbledy gook in their books – what does it tell us about those who drew lustre from them? I am now being sustained by Lloyd-Jones: someone who didn’t pose or position (if you can navigate his style).
dee,
People who attend church, attend certain kinds of churches, and donate to churches do experience some criticism in comments on TWW. People supposedly let themselves get deceived. They’re supposedly just watching the show, or trying to use money to buy healing and God’s favor. Personally, I don’t think most Christians are that shallow or easily duped, but I don’t know everybody.
In this case, the only culpable people at Tenth are those who knew and covered up.
Others might face a very difficult choice to stay or go. Many of us have experienced anguish in such times, and we might do better to offer more compassion.
Michael in UK,
And why on earth would he join TGC?
Alexandra A,
Karen Walton,
It was for me for 28 years (some of it two timing).
Jerome,
Jerome was it you that referenced (on 1-1-19 in 31-12-18 thread linked by Alexandra) Ligon Duncan was enthusing about “new networks” (false top-down ecumenism).
Agree. No golden good old days. Ask people like Christa Brown. Ask POC. Etc.
The Internet is a Godsend for seeing and understanding what goes on.
G,
Thank you! You don’t know how much this means to us!
Hopefully most are not easily deceived.
A point of clarification. In the USA among the well-established classes, with our freedom of religion, people can afford to pay for whatever church experience pleases them. Go for it, IMHO. Freedom of choice in a free society.
However, for those without the means, without discretionary cash, everything God Himself has to offer for church experience and participation is gifted and FREE without a single shekel needed for payment, IMHO.
Again, IMHO, I believe there is absolutely NOTHING superior about any church engagement that has to do with money.
Pope Francis has stated that Joseph, Mary, and Jesus were anawim, the least of the least. He has also stated that the anawim, of any era, know God best because they literally rely on God for everything. He makes a good point.
Whatever people want to spend their money on, it’s their deal, without judgement or criticism.
But those without means, I believe, have as much access to God and the Body of Christ as anyone else, as promised by Jesus, and all teachings in the NT – so … all can freely go for God’s best without the rest (without accessorizing what is actually completely unnecessary). IMHO.
I suspect the pew has been celebrating Mr. Goligher’s “faithful ministry” for years by compensating him well. This is not a time to put icing on that cake. It would be an awkward gathering for the congregation under the circumstances … it’s not like kissing the Apostle Paul on the cheek before he ventured off to start another church. It sounds like there are multiple “victims” of his “bullying … volatile temper … ego … dishonesty.” The man just needs to go; it’s the right thing to do.
Karen Walton,
Karen
I find what was done to You and family also disgusting
You’re making another good point. A lot of churches do calculate the tithe for members.
Many others do not have this practice. Personally, I would not attend a church that requires giving. If people can afford to give, they might choose to give. Those who can’t, or don’t want to, are welcome anyway—and yes, I was that poor young worker showing up and not giving. This is my lifelong experience in four different traditions, but it’s not universal.
R,
i appreciate your comment.
i think the sin list has become like… some science fiction movie where tiny bizarre pestilence-type things keep growing and proliferating more and more and more…
making people paranoid and turning people against each other.
where in the bible does it say ‘trans’ (by any name)
is a sin?
do you think Jesus would initiate a caste system and keep people who don’t look a certain way in the lowest tier (especially people who have walked an excruciatingly hard road of rejection)?
perpetuating the rejection in a separate but equal system?
‘we’ll allow you in the door but have you stay over there. because you’re not really one of us.’
.
.
i’m amazed at how many things are conjectured as ‘sin’, either flat out declared or implied in some kind of slumber party-esque ghost story that leaves people wide-eyed & scared.
much of the time christians with the influencer hat present a kind of frightening spectre of sorts —
it’s like walking in a mine field peppered with sin sin sin, but no one knows exactly what it is or where it is. it just makes them scared & always in danger, and probably already coated with exploded sin.
.
.
i think the sin list is very short. and very plain. not ambiguous fodder for creating in groups and out groups.
And you’re thoroughly justified to expect better out of leadership, otherwise their claim to be leaders falls flat.
This.
Ava Aaronson,
Dr Lennox is much more at home now that he’s back in his real gift, evangelising those he’s amongst, and not in that strange “apologetism” industry.
Muff Potter,
Muff, you talk like you are out-and-out a 100 % adherent of bad preachers who leave out the good bits. Only remedy: private interpretation, making sure to stop copying ALL the bad preachers.
“They shall not worship on these mountains (the way “right” and “wrong” factions tell you) but in Spirit and Truth”. You will find the ability to proceed with assiduity and diligence if you are open to Holy Spirit. Jesus came to a contingent world.
A propos, if LG is a “semi cessationist” he has halfway shut the heavens and wants to hamper our God from enlightening us. Holy Spirit gifts are for our private lives in this contingent world and anyone with the status of LG doesn’t realise there is such a thing as private.
Citation or Arrest: What Does it Matter:
The issue here is whether or not Goligher did what it appears he did. Your job is to figure out if this is normal behavior for a pastor and for anybody. Sexual activity in a public park is bizarre behavior for everyone. That is why they try to stop it. He admitted it, and she did as well. My thought is that this is not the only occurrence. The bottom line is that if all of this is true, and I believe it is, your pastor should not be a pastor. He needs help and work in a job where he is not the big cheese. I am startled that I have to say this to any person at Tenth church. What are they teaching you these days?
Friend,
Given that I attend a conservative Lutheran church, this comment means something to me. I have to admit that I left my SBC church due to the abuse of children. I know many people who stayed. The church has changed. But, many people who stayed do not fully believe the extent of the abuse. A woman approached me after I left and said, “I am proud of my church.” I said, “Good for you. Some kids aren’t.”Some who stayed wanted to make it a better church, but I still suspect that there is an underlying sentiment that the whole thing was overblown. It wasn’t .
For my sanity, I had to find a church that functioned more normally. I finally found one, but it took a long time.
People who experience abuse or see chronic abuse in the church are left wondering if good churches exist or if some people in the churches who are abused are still kind and caring. Given your comment, I must admit that I often feel like those who were hurt. I struggle with it and overcome negativity, but it is hard. I think we all are a work in progress.
“A woman approached me after I left and said, “I am proud of my church.” I said, “Good for you. Some kids aren’t.”” (Dee)
Evil prevails where folks are proud of their church, proud of their pastor, proud of their theology, proud of their denomination … blinded by pride to sin in the camp … deafened by pride to the cries of the hurting and abused in their midst. Pride is an awful sin.
dee,
Frogs in a kettle.
… and moved on with business as usual?
Whether by citation or arrest, “There is nothing covered up which is not going to be exposed, nor anything private which is not going to be made public.” (Luke 12:2) … “The light has shined into the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.” (John 1:5)
Whether by citation or arrest, this was God’s way of saying “Enough is enough!” What does it matter? It matters to God.
Amen.
Someone once said “I am a work in progress, but I have some glitches.”
I resemble that remark.
Max,
🙂
It’s behavior fueled by The Thrill, the Danger of possibly Getting Caught.
Like crack or social media apps, it becomes the main trigger for that dopamine surge and the only cure for the post-dopamine crash withdrawals.
“Smyth Clan” as in Jack the Whipper?
Thank you for the link, Ira. 🙂 I don’t have time to read through all the information….I just wanted to say that — and keeping in mind that I’m a computer nerd 🙂 — watching the way everything loaded was really cool. 🙂
Headless Unicorn Guy,
i agree with you.
Tony Bonanducci, I was a member for 13 years, but transferred out when I moved. I am distressed to hear of the issues that are going on at Tenth and will be praying for the church. I can’t quite wrap my brain around the sins that have been exposed by leaders that I had great respect for, but we are living in a fallen world and temptation is often geared to the weaknesses of the individual. It’s only by God’s grace that we don’t all yield to sexual sins.
As of today, HE GONE!
(And I’m not sure the Presbys do the “Wait for the Heat to blow over, then claim an ANgel Encounter and Return to Ministry with a Standing Ovation worthy of Stalin or Saddam”.)
HE’S GONE!
https://thewartburgwatch.com/2023/12/10/liam-goligher-resigns-guess-those-personal-conduct-citations-were-spot-on/
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Take the “PJ’s” off them at midnight. Was he also part of the family set up when a youth was found drowned, not in usual circumstances to be found drowned. My onetime senior elder’s mentor, who writes turgid books, found him a job placement in a third country.
Steely Dan, one of the best bands of the late 20th century.
Max,
Evil is also the side most obsessed with Purity.
— from an old Internet Monk comment thread
You of course remember how they got their name?
Two YouTube videos (from different channels) with the same subject:
10 SIGNS OF (BEING ON THE RECEIVING END OF) NARCISSISTIC MENTAL ABUSE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2UwpyrNoK4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZu7gWD1xhU
For what it’s worth I score between 7 and 8, my roomie between 8 and 9, and one of my writing partners (the self-educated son of a steelworker) between 8 and 10.
(Lotsa walking wounded out there.)
And to the Happy Clappy Christians, scoring even 1 out of 10 is PROOF that YOU were Never Really Saved(TM).
(“Joy Joy Joy of The LOOOOOOOORD in MY Heart…”)
And in the first five comments on this news, Seneca’s already playing the “You’re all Rejoicing at the fall of an Evangelical!” card off the bottom of the deck.
Dryly, of course.
It was meant to be … predestined … arranged at the beginning of time … determined before the foundation of the world … divinely decided in advance … settled before you and I ever drew breath, HUG.
Thank you, Dee, for posting this story and for those from Tenth who have shared their experiences as well as those who have offered their prayer and support to those now wounded. My family and I have been in and out of Tenth as visitors for decades. It was never a church where we felt we could connect (people who’ve attended would understand) and ultimately never wound up there. But we have watched from the sidelines and too feel the impact of the disaster as the “blast wave” expands out.
I spent some time with the GRACE report thanks to Anglican Watch and was shocked at the number of revealed sexual sins within various levels of leadership as well as the lack of a police report made in too many situations. While most people who attend, to which we can personally attest, have no idea of the level of depravity “behind the curtain” so to speak, there have always been indicators. There has always been an accepted level of sensuality within the congregants and occasionally those offering their musical talents. This kind of temptation is something most of us men are looking to avoid (aren’t we directed by the Apostle Paul to flee sexual temptation?), especially when going to worship the Holy God who gave Moses specific instructions on how priests were to dress lest they uncover themselves before the Lord. Guess this concept of modesty doesn’t extend to the modern church? There is also an issue of what people pour into their minds that doesn’t meet the standard of whatsoever is true, lovely, of good report, etc thanks to pornography and movie industry. All these things can help establish an internal culture of “looking the other way” or not making an appropriate response. Plus, and now I’m speculating, Tenth has always been known for having a top level traditional worship service (no lights but the ones on the Christmas trees, no smoke but from a seasonal candle); the Philadelphia Inquirer newspaper used to list the Christmas Eve candlelight service as a must see part of the Christmas season because of the quality of the traditional musical presentation led by a world-class organist and music director, Dr. Paul Jones, with musicians from the Philadelphia orchestra. It could be that there was a desire to protect that status, and maybe a culture grew of out that desire, to keep certain things under wraps, particularly with Dr. Jones. Maybe that became the unofficial standard? Again, just speculating and there will be more investigations to uncover whatever happened.
A case in point – the 11 AM Sunday morning Service before Dr. Goligher left, he welcomed a number of new members to the church. One was a young woman who was hired to oversee the women’s and children’s ministries. My wife and I were utterly shocked to see and hear Dr. Goligher literally flirting with this young woman during the service in front of the gathered congregation. Anyone can track down the YouTube of this service (Nov 26, 11 AM) and see and hear what we experienced. For this kind of behavior to be happening in the Service, one can only imagine what might be happening behind the scenes.
Damage extends sometimes far beyond the doors and the congregation. Back in 2017, an elder and staff member, a Mr. Pat Canavan, was found to be developing an inappropriate relationship with a minor and was removed from his positions (we never met this man). Right after the Canavan issue happened, my wife was falsely accused by a Tenth member of being inappropriately friendly with their son, which she wasn’t – I was standing right there – she was trying to facilitate for our special needs son, and then excused their overreaction to the recent elder’s dismissal. They defamed my wife’s character to others. Needless to say, our son lost a friend opportunity, and my wife remains stung by the situation years later. My point – there are many impacts to these kinds of behaviors – some of them far beyond the perpetrator.
We too hope the Presbytery is able to conduct a full and complete investigation, uncover the problems, and work to see them solved. There apparently is an internal investigation being conducted by Tenth’s Session as one of their deaconesses is fully implicated, and she falls under their jurisdiction. We pray they will be successful in getting to the bottom of whatever is happening. Tenth is a historic church with a historic voice in Philadelphia and around the world. But even historic churches fall.
It is a reminder to all of us to look to ourselves and our own sin to mortify it under Christ, which starts with placing one’s personal faith and trust in the Lord Jesus, working out our own salvation with fear and trembling. It is also a reminder what the Bible teaches all too well – there is no pure, righteous hero except the Lord Himself. We want to have someone we can look up to, someone to set upon a pedestal. There is but One – that Three in One. Everyone else pales in comparison and ultimately fails…sometimes spectacularly and with multiple people hurt in real and awful ways.
AMEN! For folks who reflect on this and return to the true focus of worship may be the good that comes from bad. I hope to live long enough to see celebrity Christianity in America fade from the scene.
Personal sin by celebrity pulpits are never just a personal matter … it has far-reaching consequences.
S,
All I can say is “Wow.” I am so sorry that you had to endure such behavior on the part of the “Chosen.” I hope more of the darkness is exposed.
S, thank you for sharing. I looked at the livestream from 11/26 and did not find the new members being welcomed. Can you share a minute marker and link?
Thanks for double checking – my wife & I were wrong; we were certain it was the previous week but there was a week in between. It was the Nov 19 11 AM service, approximately 46:35 https://www.youtube.com/live/mKXoYTmzsps?si=–lNG90TjCZEFRkX
Very sorry about that.
S,
Thank you for this link.
Glad you appreciated it. Hope the research is useful. The signed ordinance 98 proving that they were ticketed for a sexual act is not available elsewhere online. https://cryptpad.fr/drive/#/2/drive/view/TQTMAjAY9YZP9AcBCTj2MEN3WsYkwKBjo3kXHWRwoaM/
dee, have you noticed that the shocking revelations pertaining to Carroll Wynne and his abuse of young people has been overshadowed by the announcement of Dr Goligher’s infidelity and resignation? Could it be that the GRACE report only scratched the surface of Mr. Wynne’s abuse over the decades? Do you think the Session and Presbytery will allow Mr. Wynne to continue as a leader and/or member? What do you think it would take to remove him?
Sermons: https://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?speakeronly=true&currsection=sermonsspeaker&keyword=Carroll_Wynne
Profile: https://www.tenth.org/multi_author/carroll-wynne/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carroll-wynne-07b81029
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/carroll.wynne/
Michael in UK,
From the distant past and Adrian Warnock and LG on Jonah –
“ There was an eager sense of anticipation in the room to listen to God’s word through Liam, who is a good friend of the Evangelical church in the UK. Liam began by saying that last night he dreamt he was preaching this sermon with the passion of John Piper, the depth of Don Carson, the crispness of Dick Lucas and the coolness of Mark Driscoll. If you had been there you would have had the experience of a lifetime. Unfortunately, he said, you will have to cope with me as I am when not dreaming.”
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/adrianwarnock/2009/04/liam-goligher-on-jonah-1/
Tell you what. I will put it into a post and try to get to it after our family gathers for Christmas this weekend. Medical families often have to celebrate on odd dates due to their profession.
R,
he’s already on a leave of absence until Presbytery comes back with the results of an investigation or trial. what it would take is a) his self-accusation or b) his loss in a trial or 3) the dissolution by the congregation of the relation. I’m hoping for ‘a’
THANK YOU!
He is on paid leave right? They emphasized in the meeting that he is still considered a minister in good standing.
Max,
Why is it those guys can only think in linear time segments?
They bought the lie.
They should have just said he was on paid leave while church leaders deal with the matter. I would have left out the minister in good standing part.
George,
Thank you for clarifying your intent, George. I understand that the situation is frustrating. I didn’t mean to single out your comment personally but to respond to all similar comments. Just can’t reply to them all!
The lack of communication is frustrating at times as a member as well. Most sensitive information is communicated to members in person at meetings, and if you miss a meeting, you get the info second hand from another member. I don’t entirely agree with the practice, but I do believe that it is done partially with a genuine desire to keep things pertaining to the congregation within the congregation. And to discourage gossip, which I do think the church sometimes defines too broadly. Some things should be talked about.
I think Tenth’s session sometimes fails to understand the reach of happenings at Tenth into the broader church community. I have not had personal relationships with any ministers, but I do know a few elders and their families fairly well. And I can say that those I know are apparently upstanding people with normal day jobs doing their best in a tough situation.
For all the talk from some commenters about Tenth being a celebrity church, I can tell you it doesn’t feel like one as a member. I had been attending for several years and a member for a few before I realized quite how well-known the church is in certain circles. Are there members who are there because of the church’s reputation? I have no doubt! And I wouldn’t be surprised if the church’s reputation draws the kind of leaders who value that reputation too much. But I don’t believe the majority of members care much. And I think many don’t know!
And to those commenting about all the money Goligher was making – his salary was approved by the congregation at the meeting when he was called. I don’t think it’s a secret. It was nothing to sneeze at, certainly, but it was far from “celebrity pastor” kind of money. Especially not with the cost of living in Philly. (If one doesn’t agree that ministers should be paid at all, then it’s clearly too much, of course. )
One more note from my experience – Tenth is not a place where members are required to give a certain amount or even to give at all. My spouse and I have been members for over a decade, and throughout most of that time our giving was sporadic due to us struggling to cover our family’s living expenses. Only more recently have we been able to contribute to ministries in the way we’d like to. (Thank you, functioning health insurance.) No one from Tenth has ever contacted us in any way about our lack of giving. And it’s addressed from the pulpit only occasionally and not with a tone of admonition or obligation (in my opinion, at least). In fact, I always knew that if our family’s medical expenses became too much (which at times they almost did), we could reach out to the deacons. We knew another member family in a similar financial situation who had received help.
Just my experience in response to some of the assumptions from some commenters.
I also was a recipient of help from Tenth, as a young person in need. They had no idea whether I tithed or not (I didn’t).
I admit, Tenth as a congregation and as a historic place where people worship has held a special place in my heart for years. I would always find myself returning, even if it was to sit in the back near a curtain, unseen, where I could slip out. There are many normal and intelligent people there, some true gems. It has seemed like a humble place in a way. I always loved that old organ and the catacombs there. I am relieved that these skeletons in the closet are all coming out. I want to be thankful for that. May the elders that remain be led well in this time of change. May they be enabled and inspired to do as has not been done in the past.
The comments here are why the world laughs at the church.
K,
Thank you for your balanced testimony which to my gut feeling rings true. The foreboding I have is that imbalances in theology (spreading to ambient sermon wallpaper) got prevalent during the last 20 or more years – I think the 1920s, 1946, 1966, 1983, 1995 and 2008 were pivots.
Muff Potter,
Excellent point Muff. Why does someone who argued against ESS feel entitled to persecute the rightful denouncer (Snyder) of someone else and connected colleagues? It doesn’t stack up even if you leave 2014 out. Is he like Grudem only pretending to play ESS down? In a 1995 article Max Turner decries those who restrict the Greek word “charisma” to institutional functions. The word means what God gives you and me both permanently and from moment to moment.
He doesn’t waddle or quack like a megapastor (until he with his henchperson persecutes the righteous) but his unobtrusive handlers / cultivators have set him up in the ways that matter to them. For instance, there are still those who limit Zacharias’ missteps to his personal relations with women, when Joe public smelled the logical, theological and sporting “coffee” in 2011 during 90 seconds at the bookshop shelf.
I am very upset because from his CV I see that lots of people I know, know him. He was set up for his footprint.
How do you define world?
Theworldsfriend,
The world despises deficient teachings, so why don’t christians?
Proud of the pecking order that they are at the bottom of.
I wonder to what degree the situation is made worse by presby churches trying to follow their overly detailed catechism. For instance, here is what you can do and cant do according to the 9th commandment in presbyterian churches. I mean, this site would have to shut down if they tried to follow all that
Q. 143. Which is the ninth commandment?
A. The ninth commandment is, Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Q. 144. What are the duties required in the ninth commandment?
A. The duties required in the ninth commandment are, the preserving and promoting of truth between man and man, and the good name of our neighbor, as well as our own; appearing and standing for the truth; and from the heart, sincerely, freely, clearly, and fully, speaking the truth, and only the truth, in matters of judgment and justice, and in all other things whatsoever; a charitable esteem of our neighbors; loving, desiring, and rejoicing in their good name; sorrowing for and covering of their infirmities; freely acknowledging of their gifts and graces, defending their innocency; a ready receiving of a good report, and unwillingness to admit of an evil report, concerning them; discouraging talebearers, flatterers, and slanderers; love and care of our own good name, and defending it when need requireth; keeping of lawful promises; studying and practicing of whatsoever things are true, honest, lovely, and of good report.
Q. 145. What are the sins forbidden in the ninth commandment?
A. The sins forbidden in the ninth commandment are, all prejudicing the truth, and the good name of our neighbors, as well as our own, especially in public judicature; giving false evidence, suborning false witnesses, wittingly appearing and pleading for an evil cause, outfacing and overbearing the truth; passing unjust sentence, calling evil good, and good evil; rewarding the wicked according to the work of the righteous, and the righteous according to the work of the wicked; forgery, concealing the truth, undue silence in a just cause, and holding our peace when iniquity calleth for either a reproof from ourselves, or complaint to others; speaking the truth unseasonably, or maliciously to a wrong end, or perverting it to a wrong meaning, or in doubtful or equivocal expressions, to the prejudice of the truth or justice; speaking untruth, lying, slandering, backbiting, detracting, talebearing, whispering, scoffing, reviling, rash, harsh, and partial censuring; misconstructing intentions, words, and actions; flattering, vainglorious boasting, thinking or speaking too highly or too meanly of ourselves or others; denying the gifts and graces of God; aggravating smaller faults; hiding, excusing, or extenuating of sins, when called to a free confession; unnecessary discovering of infirmities; raising false rumors, receiving and countenancing evil reports, and stopping our ears against just defense; evil suspicion; envying or grieving at the deserved credit of any; endeavoring or desiring to impair it, rejoicing in their disgrace and infamy; scornful contempt, fond admiration; breach of lawful promises; neglecting such things as are of good report, and practicing, or not avoiding ourselves, or not hindering what we can in others, such things as procure an ill name.
Re-member me,
Unbelievable! Perhaps they like red tape because they sure have created it.
This whole comment is confuddled / mixed up on here, just wanted to let ya know 🙂
Blinded by their own Shekinah?
The pig-headed KNOWLEDGE that We Are RIGHT and You Are WRONG?
Holy Nincompoop Syndrome mixed with Dunning-Kruger Effect?
(For those who have to be Biblical, the first mention of the Dunning-Kruger Effect was 3000 years ago in Proverbs 12:15 and 26:12.)
R,
Yeah, I realised that after I submitted it.
My fault. This blog has a rather unusual format in how people can “reply with quote” to another person’s comment. I sometimes it hard to do it right, esp when I’m on my phone.
v 13-15 the sluggard cries wolf then finds his own vaunted system doesn’t sustain him. It’s such hard work focussing on the sins of one’s own lowly congregation members – leaving him tossing and turning.
v 16-17 defending those already doing wrong in his inherited institution (and I thought presbyterians publicly advertise first, so that it’s pastor’s initiative to move, and to investigate).
v 18-19 the dominionists usurp real and destructive spiritual power then claim it was only advertising and we all know that’s just lies right?
Pray none will stumble at this tragic fall from grace of a church leader.
has he no conscience, where is the inner voice of the Holy Spirit?
how does he excuse himself, ‘all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God’
‘light overcomes evil’, he preaches, more than a tongue in the cheek
These Scriptural paradoxes seem to defy logic, but a deeper study reveals a wonderful pattern for Christians who want to live victoriously. Here are several of them taken from the New Testament: We find rest under a yoke (Mt. 11 :28-30). We are exalted by being humble (Mt. 23:12). We became wise by being fools for Christ’s sake ( 1 Cor. 1 :20,21). We enjoy freedom when we became His bond servants (Rom. 6:17-20). We possess all things by having nothing (2 Cor. 6:10). We are strong when we are weak (2 Cor. 12:10). We find victory by glorying in our infirmities (2 Cor. 12:5). We live by dying (John 12:24,25).
The unbeliever rejects these enigmas as impossible to understand. But the Christian, who has the Holy Spirit to enlighten him, can accept these paradoxes, realizing that, we may not fully understand them until we see the Lord face to face.
Barbara Roberts,
And yes, George McFarland and the rest of the apparatchiks need to resign en masse.
Make sure you reply under the code titled … hopefully you can see that. It’s the code titled blockquote.
As the thought experiment I looked at the severally reported (sad) picture without the 2014 citations. Had he and the deacon fallen back on administratively sanctioned codependency (“dutifulness”) with fellow officers?
I am a current member of Tenth. Pastor Goligher was well beloved, and many people, such as myself, followed and have learned much from his exegetically-detailed sermons. In his defense, the most serious misinformation being promulgated against him is that he was arrested – the truth is that he was only issued a citation, which is not the same at all as being arrested. A “citation” is a written notice from a law enforcement officer charging someone with breaking a law. A traffic ticket is a citation. In contrast, in an “arrest” a person is taken into custody, against that person’s will, in order to prosecute or interrogate. It involves an application of an officer’s show of force. Pastor Goligher was never arrested, and your reporting (along with others) is incorrectly reporting that he was.
Correct.
According to a recent statement by Chief Arnold, the arresting officer, Defendants were likely served citations, not actually arrested. He stated that simple traffic tickets are also written using legal terms such as “Arrest” and “Arresting Officer”.
Perhaps Dee can correct her post.
Research file pertaining to the citation and code violations: https://cryptpad.fr/drive/#/2/drive/view/TQTMAjAY9YZP9AcBCTj2MEN3WsYkwKBjo3kXHWRwoaM/
Correction made. He got a citation for doing something bizarre along with his gal pal in a city park To quote a former Secretary of State: “What difference doe it make?” Dee pounds her head on the kitchen table and scares the pugs.
good point. Maybe a reason that the 9th commandment is pretty relevant. Like, Just because Bonetti says Liam was “arrested” is NOT enough for Dee to say “yep, he was arrested!” you have to know the facts personally before you pass them along
As I keep saying: you watchdog people shoot yourselves in the foot with the misinformation mixed in with the truth. Its not useful, actionable intelligence when you fill it with speculation and innuendo that isn’t warranted
dee,
Re-member Me,
The difference that matters most is what you can see if you bracket out the quaint 2014 happening.
It’s almost as if someone advised LG and Deacon E to cynically create this diversion on behalf of the main long term oppressors (because it serves their purpose should it come to light in 2023).
Ensure wrongs get dealt with wrongly because unlimited damage causing sets limits on damage limitation.
Did LG’s own Bible school advise him to seek such a posting? Does anyone know about his faith trajectory?
LG should have quietly sought a new posting in 2015 somewhere that wasn’t a powder keg. Scotland is an unexcitable country.
Thus, watchdog people are a diverse bunch.
Re-member me, I think James Worthington’s objection is made on rather flimsy grounds.
I have added the following update to my own blog post about Liam Goligher:
“It is true that Goligher and Elzey were not taken into custody against their will in order to prosecute or interrogate or interrogate them. But it is also true that the term ‘arresting officer’ is used in the court dockets. The dockets say the arresting officer was Arnold Benjamin.”
https://cryingoutforjustice.blog/2023/12/13/liam-goligher-turns-out-to-be-a-wolf-in-shepherds-clothing/
I agree that some watchdog people have sometimes shot themselves in the foot by using inaccurate wording. But in this case, the wording ‘arrest’ is not wholly inaccurate.
Both Dee and I have updated our blog posts. Maybe it would be a good idea, Re-member me, for you to thank us for taking the time and trouble to do that! Then we might feel that you are being as reasonable as we are trying to be.
It’s all very well for you to criticise the watch-doggers and be an armchair critic. But have you tried to do the kind of thing Dee and I have been doing for years? It’s very hard work. The need is always greater than the available energy we have.
By the way, James Worthington put an identical comment at my blog. And I have answered him there.
I’m wondering if James Worthington is what Brad Sargeant would call ‘an enforcer’. He seems to be running something of a formula by submitting identical comments to TWW and to my blog.
james worthington,
To be taken away somewhere is indeed a commonplace manner of finishing an arrest. Evidently the essence of the arrest (as a more general term) in cases like these is stopping people doing what they were doing, taking their names, cautioning them, and documenting that using official stationery (citation). Evidently at an officer’s discretion, taking culprits off somewhere is not always deemed needed depending how they are deemed example setters.
The only “speculation” (in the sense of obvious good question asking) I’ve read in these threads arises from pointers to the state of “doctrinally sanctioned” mutual emotional binds among Tenth staff and their wider associates, over 13 to 16 years, surely a ball park worth dispassioned exploring from here on in. For example, does the situation at Tenth shed light on one or more past or current figures at and doctrines of New Frontiers?
Lots of somehow worthy pastors, elders, session members et al are under too much impression from grandparents, or fellow interdenominational / international senior clerical luminaries, or similar. “Actionable” in the wider sense most often means “bears looking into”; a job the many people high and low, who are near to these interlocking situation(s) can continue to help with: a good purpose for “speculation”.
LG himself agrees faulty doctrine is a crucial cause, so why would you, as church officials, wait till the police had become somehow involved with your boss (as they happen to have) while internal spiritual wrongs by Tenth staff have been excused for too long? Faulty doctrine at Tenth led to these wrongs by Tenth staff for 14 years which their pastor, an esteemed international figure, somehow – we don’t yet know enough about how – lacked clout to resolve.
The police aren’t – mostly – there to sort out the bad fruits of bad religious beliefs. What level of “dutifulness” would have induced Pastor Liam to bite off more than he can chew? I’m only going through your own logic step-by-step.
So it’s OK to rally around “Pastor” if he just received a citation for hanky panky in the park, rather than an arrest? Being cited for public you-know-what is a lesser transgression than being arrested for same?
Mr. Worthington, I’ve been a long-time reader/commenter on The Wartburg Watch. I can’t tell you the number of times that we’ve seen church members bring up the “But, he sure can preach!” defense of a bad-boy pastor. I’m sorry this has happened to you and the good people at Tenth. You deserve better … we all do. It just shouldn’t have to be too much to ask for the pulpit to be pure and holy, besides delivering exegetically-detailed sermons.
What a great comment, Michael from the UK!
I am convinced that faulty doctrine is a crucial cause of abuse and oppression being mishandled in churches.
That’s why I have focused so much of my writing on exposing and correcting the faulty doctrines that lead to mishandling of abusers and their (witting or unwitting) allies. Expose, then correct. Expose the faulty, then teach the true doctrine using Scripture, by weighing and assessing all the biblical passages which touch on the doctrine that needs correction. Use the whole counsel of God so that Scripture can rightly interpret Scripture. And be aware that some of the faulty doctrines have come from faulty translations (e.g. Malachi 2:16). Use also the scholarly research into the socio-political settings in which Scripture was written.
My book dealt with the faulty doctrines relating to divorce and remarriage, with particular focus on what the Bible says about divorce for domestic abuse.
My blog deals with divorce but also many other faulty doctrines that contribute to churches mishandling abuse and oppression.
Dee has focused on exposing particular cases of abuse in churches. I have focused more on the doctrines that cause abuse to be tolerated and enabled in churches.
In my opinion, the networks of church leaders mutually enhancing each other in faulty doctrines, operating from ‘tradition’ rather than sound scriptural holy-spirit-infused wisdom, is another major contributor to the mess we are in. But I think faulty doctrine is the root cause, and the network of influencers-and-allies is an inevitable outgrowth of the faulty doctrine.
If I were asked to list the major faulty doctrines, here, off the top of my head, is a list:
Suffering. Rebuke. Church discipline. Repentance and reformation. Forgiveness. Reconciliation. What is permissible & godly for men, and what is permissible and godly for women. Divorce & remarriage. Can you take a brother to court? What constitutes ‘bitterness’? Anger and other emotions. The mentality and tactics of evildoers. What is a reprobate, and how God deals with reprobates. Spiritual blindness — its various causes.
Liam Goligher appreciated some of my analysis of faulty doctrines and the correctives I offered for faulty doctrines. That is one reason why I’m so grieved about his fall.
I think it is quite possible that Liam was out of his depth at Tenth. The nest of vipers at Tenth was very bad, and Liam appears to have been unable to identify and deal with how bad it really was.
Some sort of go-between appears (according to my hunch) to have lured him, playing on his top-down view of ecumenism. I am deeply moved by your testimony of your relationship with Pastor LG.
The gifts Jesus distributed unvetoed at Ascension are at least 55, and each believer has many. Each believer’s personality probably centres vaguely around approx. three of the fivefold – not as boss of course (but we uphold all of them with general prayers) – as well as several of the layer of nine, the layer of 55, etc. Ascension was the birthday of the Church because interceding in Holy Spirit insight and strength, probably in a degree of fear, is our main and normal ministry.
Lloyd-Jones appears to have inuited this well, but some readers will filter that out when they read his works. David Pawson (an old style English Baptist) is worth studying on topics I’ve read him up on.
I saw subtly controlling attitudes in my new apostolic milieu, out and out shortage of prayer in triumphal fellowships, and all sorts of creeping and wrongfooting in plain sight elsewhere. It does take a lifetime to fit the jigsaw pieces together. I’m not very good at conveying a potted version!
Bad church = gospel minus. The Fundamentals as maximum not to be attained (before we look at what wasn’t included in them or in the Confessions).
J H Newman (apostle of grey areas) pointed out that our belief (about anything) comes from our assent to our degrees of our inference. Hence we need: background information, imagination (only not the vain kind), intuition (a “nose”); helped by free peers. I’m grateful for pretty sophisticated belief that I (as a slow child) picked up without trouble from secular teachers and at home during earlier childhood (which some snooty people tried to induce me to look down on), for most of the things I was told when I was a Jesus freak, even for things shared with me by my peers in my worst cult at rare moments when we weren’t being manipulated (I wouldn’t recommend people go into the last-mentioned for that reason though LOL).
Jesus did say to keep our nerve because it’s normal for tares to be everywhere in spiritual “nature” (unfortunately goons trot this out as their own excuse LOL). Tares = a substance which is in people who try to “influence” * (a fleshly work); they risk that part of their reward that is not “in the bag” and our prayers (if we don’t obey those who told us to stop praying) may help guard even them ultimately, or those around them meanwhile, without placing ourselves within bad boundaries.
{ * as in elite schools and camps we have sadly come to hear about, and through some of the “books” that were marketed }
One doesn’t need to be articulate: repeat set prayers and / or psalms (that’s not the vain kind). That’s my philosophy (and that’s not the vain kind LOL).
Whole OT and NT in nutshell: the worship of the God full of meaning in Whose image we are, is to not stunt the growth of our fellow adopted orphans and widows in Father’s firm; and the praise of the rational God is to show we know He is the one to go shopping from (for all needs) without price (last 21 verses of Proverbs, Is 55). That’s charismatic, 6 days and 22 hours a week. Don’t only befriend whom the boss tells you you may.
Some of the “evangelicals” taught us not to take oil for others, and for later. Inbreathing, and infillings (of which Pentecost was one) balance each other distinctly for reasons. (The NT tells the story of when both were imparted at separate times as well as at the same times, because the way life happens varies.) Many people in Jesus’ time believed the Gospel from the OT once Holy Spirit was about, because they weren’t told it didn’t contain it; only in substance did the ceremonial part of law not contain it. If the people – including upcoming leaders – don’t hear a distinct sound, they can’t acquire distinct belief.
As a single the years of body theology and gender theology have for me been perplexing and glum (and for the whole world). Salt and light will be good morals (morale bearing) when Holy Spirit filled and not megaphone filled. My parents, playmates, colleagues et al thought (the huge variety of) boys and girls, men and women, were rather similar!
Thank you Michael. It means a lot to me that you were deeply moved by my testimony of my relationship with Pastor LG, and that made the effort to publicly say so. I get very little feedback of that kind from Christians.
I’m curious to know what you mean by “the gifts Jesus distributed unvetoed at Ascension are at least 55”. Can you please amplify?
I’ve heard of the five gifts (Ephesians 4) and I’ve heard of the nine gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12). But I’m puzzled by “at least 55”. Why 55? Where did you get the number 55 from?
Oh I cribbed it from someone, I don’t even remember who, who said they had counted them in the Old & New Testaments!
😉
My main idea is to try and help people away from the idea that God (i.e the church authorities) are rationing the gifts and / or opportunities to benefit from them.
At one time there were those who directly discredited the gifts (as Piper still does and Bethel Redding are teetering on the edge) and we see the totally missplaced reaction against that (pretend rival pincer movements).
Remedy for wrong gifts is NOT:
no gifts
few gifts
different wrong gifts
Michael in UK,
Thanks Michael. 🙂
I fully agree that the remedy for wrong gifts is not no gifts, or few gifts, or different wrong gifts.
He is also posting on Anglican Watch!
You and dee are doing very hard work. Thank you!!!!