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(Update) Emilie Dye Paige: — 78 Comments
” I may have been legally over-age for much of the most physical sexual abuse, but mentally and emotionally, I was entirely incapable of consenting.” This quote, I believe, is the sum and substance of why Jim Nance is 100% At fault, and Doug Wilson totally failed in protecting Emilie.
A reminder to Christian leaders who sexually abuse children under their watch: Hell is hot and hell is long. There is a millstone with your name on it.
I do believe that there is punishment in the afterlife for abusers.
Her comparison of her abuser’s reaction to her future fiancé’s reaction made me go down memory lane.
Two of my first boyfriends were Christian. One assaulted me and cheated on me, the other assaulted me and was emotionally abusive.
I also dated an atheist and then a non-practicing Catholic man during that period of my life (not all at the same time). They were both caring and respectful, and far more “safe” than my so-called Christian boyfriends.
In spite of what I’d been told growing up that you shouldn’t be “unequally yoked” and “relationships with Christian men are better because Jesus is better” and yada yada, it was the two non-religious men who set the bar for the man I ended up marrying.
Probably one of the bigger reasons I left the church for several years in my twenties. It’s kind of disorienting when “the world” you’ve been taught so much to fear turns out to be more trustworthy than the faith you were taught to trust growing up.
Just saying.
Heartbreaking.
If you want to know more about Doug Wilson’s disgusting cult, there is a lot at Kate Botkin’s blog – she also has experienced his duplicity and authoritarianism firsthand: https://kbotkin.com/tag/doug-wilson/
“It’s kind of disorienting when “the world” you’ve been taught so much to fear turns out to be more trustworthy than the faith you were taught to trust growing up.
Just saying.”
+++++++++++++++
you can say it again.
i was sold a bill of goods. it’s total bullsh|t.
so unconscionable… manipulating people in one of their most vulnerable contexts – their sense of self in relation to God, creator of the universe, the Supreme Being.
to create an insular group, wary of outsiders, to co-opt for many purposes i’d argue are laced with self-interest.
.
.
the kindest, most generous, gracious, honest & most sincere people are expressly *not* christian.
… is embedded in a larger cult called New Calvinism. The rest of them may act a bit more civilized, but they share the same rotten attitude about women in their heart of hearts.
Sarah (aka Wild Honey): It’s kind of disorienting when “the world” you’ve been taught so much to fear turns out to be more trustworthy than the faith you were taught to trust growing up.
Therein lies a huge problem with most churchgoers … they (generic they) put more trust in an expression of faith, rather than the subject of faith which is Christ. The belief and practice of mere men will often let you down, but never Jesus. Not everything we call Christian is Christlike.
dee: I do believe that there is punishment in the afterlife for abusers.
Well, they give that very little thought on this side of eternity.
“the sexually immoral … will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8)
“they will go away to eternal punishment” (Matthew 25:46)
“punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His might” (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
“into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 13:50)
The American church would do well to preach stuff like that on occasion. It might scare the hell out of abuser-wannabes in both pulpit and pew.
Max: put more trust in an expression of faith, rather than the subject of faith which is Christ.
And the “Say the Exact Words at the Altar Call” school of Salvation does NOT help.
Especially when tag-teamed with “Once Saved, Always Saved”.
Max: Therein lies a huge problem with most churchgoers … they (generic they) put more trust in an expression of faith, rather than the subject of faith which is Christ.The belief and practice of mere men will often let you down, but never Jesus.Not everything we call Christian is Christlike.
Amen. That is so important. So many people who undergo horrific abuse in a “Christian” context tragically yet understandably end up abandoning their Christian faith. That’s yet another reason why Jesus mentioned millstones.
But God isn’t the problem here. People are. Jesus will never let us down. But boy, some of His “representatives” sure will.
Headless Unicorn Guy: And the “Say the Exact Words at the Altar Call” school of Salvation does NOT help.
Especially when tag-teamed with “Once Saved, Always Saved”.
Thank you, Emilie Paige Dye, for sharing the rest of your story.
The predator teacher would fall under the category of demon possessed, if there is such a category, IMHO. He is certainly a criminal. What a coward! Pedophiles are always cowards. Fat old guy going after young girls he seeks to control. What a loser. Yuk.
Thank God, you escaped the creepy monster.
Gus: If you want to know more about Doug Wilson’s disgusting cult, there is a lot at Kate Botkin’s blog – she also has experienced his duplicity and authoritarianism firsthand: https://kbotkin.com/tag/doug-wilson/
Checked out the link.
If the great and mighty Kirk with all of its appendages throughout the Moscow community is nothing but plagiarism and pedophilia at its core … then there is nothing great or mighty about it, going on in Moscow or its sphere of influence. Plagiarism and pedophilia are weak at best, but in essence, criminal.
Emilie Page Dye and her crew put out fires. The Kirk, meanwhile, plays with fire, a fool’s enterprise.
Big disappointment masked by marketing. Nothing but a veneer hiding lowlife nonsense and criminality.
When the naked truth is ugly, run and seek distance.
This has nothing to do with the God we know.
Somewhere in Moscow, there’s a tiny little man running a grand enterprise while hiding behind an even smaller little curtain, shouting, “Keep your eyes on the Imax screen, everyone.”
Meanwhile, along comes a cool breeze, the wind of the Holy Spirit?, blowing aside the curtain, exposing the verbose little man. Oops.
Eyes go there.
My heart breaks for Dye and those who have experienced similar abuse. My prayer is that one day she realizes that her struggle is not with Christ or Christianity, but with those who masquerade in His Name while promoting kingdoms of a lesser god, namely themselves.
As the parent of a child who was sexually abused as an infant, this sickens me and breaks my heart. I find it both revolting and sad. Emilie’s abuser will indeed stand before God and reap what he has sown. God will not be mocked, and this man will pay. The man is sickening, but he will be called to account. I am also heartbroken for Emilie. She is out of the man’s orbit and he is no longer her abuser. To read that she is “happily living in sin with her partner” breaks my heart. While she will NEVER, and I do mean NEVER, have to account for the abuses she suffered as those are HIS sins, she will be held to account for the choices she is making now.
I do not know what led her abuser to his own path of filth and sin. Perhaps he was abused as a child. Even if he was that does not excuse his behavior ands give him license to sin.
And sadly, having been abused does not give Emilie license to sin. This is a common reaction among the abused when the abuser claims to be Christian, Muslim, or whatever faith and makes much of that. The abused generally reject that faith and live out their lives in a way that thumbs the nose at the rules of that faith.
As bad as what he did was to her physically, what he did to her soul is even worse. And while I weep for what she suffered physically, I deeply mourn for what she is choosing now.
And pray she finds healing such as to allow her to find physical, emotional, and spiritual health.
And as an aside, yes, our abused child did grow up to be abusive. What happened to him as a baby was not his fault, the choices he made as an adult were.
Catholic Gate-Crasher: Jesus will never let us down. But boy, some of His “representatives” sure will.
Many who are church leaders in America are not ambassadors for Christ.
Burwell Stark: My prayer is that one day she realizes that her struggle is not with Christ or Christianity, but with those who masquerade in His Name while promoting kingdoms of a lesser god, namely themselves.
Amen.
Jesus warned that many will come in His name, deceiving many. Matt. 24.5ff
Max: Therein lies a huge problem with most churchgoers … they (generic they) put more trust in an expression of faith, rather than the subject of faith which is Christ.
Yes.
I’d been told growing up that you shouldn’t be “unequally yoked” and “relationships with Christian men are better …… ” Sarah (aka Wild Honey),
Unequally yoked… Christian men……. just makes me want to laugh, yet I can’t. Most religions (including evangelical Christians (….Doug Wilson’s Kirk, IBF, SBC….) actually create, fervently support, insist upon unequal yokes between males and females both in and outside of their own churches. When a man is always in control, and woman is always expected to submit, it forms an unequal yoke.
I wonder what Ms. Paige’s parents have to say about the choices they made for their children, and what it has cost them (especially E. D.)???
Thanks for sharing this account.
I’m sorry for what you experienced. I’m furious at that fat b..tard of a man. What a creep.
Under even the best of circumstances, few people make from childhood to adulthood with perfect sexual records, despite what people like to portray. Your situation was completely fouled up because of the inexcusable and immoral actions of this guy.
The good thing you are doing is moving on. Growing up. Keep doing that.
I wish you the best going forward.
I hope your abuser’s identity and actions become known far and wide. He has a lot to answer for, hurting a young precious girl such as yourself.
Which is the term that should be used for real-deal Christians who attend New Calvinist institutions.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar): I wonder what Ms. Paige’s parents have to say about the choices they made for their children, and what it has cost them (especially E. D.)???
That is the part of this sad story that is most heartbreaking for me … to cast a child into a cult and become detached. I mean, Doug Wilson’s reputation was already out there! Institutions take on the personality of its leadership.
Therein lies another aspect of all of these sad stories on TWW…. These abusers, and in this case a whole “system” ( church, school, publishing enterprise, etc) is supported by pew peons….
The women associated with the school that first called out this specific abuser is a hero… especially acting in that depraved system..
As I mention in the previous post, and seems to have disappeared…. To some extend, I understand the depraved system that Doug Wilson has created ( i went to a fundy school that was similar), and recognizing the depravity, and standing up to it takes real courage..
Ava Aaronson: If the great and mighty Kirk with all of its appendages throughout the Moscow community is nothing but plagiarism and pedophilia at its core
Can I say something without getting my a$$ in a sling again?
I suspect that Idaho is a different culture altogether.
And not just Idaho, my own home State of Wisconsin is a very similar culture.
Both places are great environments for the Doug Wilsons of the world, because they’d never make it in say, Southern California.
Not that SoCal is some paragon of righteousness, but you get what I mean.
Sarah (aka Wild Honey): you shouldn’t be “unequally yoked” and “relationships with Christian men are better because Jesus is better”
“Equally Yoked” was the name of a CHRISTIAN video dating service I dumped $600 into a couple years after my breakup with Ann. My experience there and at a subsequent CHRISTIAN dating service was a complete disaster..
You see, I was never that interested in sex. I was interested in COMPANIONSHIP, something I could never find in a time and place where there was only Sex Sex Sex. There can be no companionship when all there is is Sex Sex Sex. And there can also be no companionship with walking Jack Chick tracts.
Remember all the Manosphere memes about Hypergamy and Unrealistic Expectations? Christian single women have them, too. The “who I am” profiles at EQ came across as something out of a Jack Chick Tract, and the “who I’m looking for” was a Perfect SCRIPTURAL/Spiritual 11, so CHRISTIAN even Christ Himself couldn’t measure up.
Muff Potter: I suspect that Idaho is a different culture altogether.
The Christian Redoubt successor to Colorado Springs, home of White Aryan Resistance, Covenant Sword Arm of The LORD, and similar fringe group bunkers. Right next door to Montana, which the FBI profiler who worked on Unabmomber describes as “the place to live if you’re completely asocial and just want to get away from everybody else”.
How many churches cultivate a culture of relationships and companionship? Inclusive?
“I do believe that there is punishment in the afterlife for abusers.” Dee
______________
Does this include abusive females? Not necessarily sexually abusive females? Or is this reserved for sexually abusive men only?
__________________
The bottom theological line is: “Dee, looking back at your life, are you not deserving of hell?”
seneca: The bottom theological line is: “Dee, looking back at your life, are you not deserving of hell?”
Everyone, Seneca. You as well. I am a Lutheran., LCMS, in case you want to prove that is wrong Lutheran. Of course, I believe I’m deserving of hell. My answer disappointed you because you always seem to hope to prove I am not a genuine believer. Give it up and try to figure out why I am a believer.
Jeffrey Chalmers: These abusers, and in this case a whole “system” (church, school, publishing enterprise, etc) is supported by pew peons….
Most of the “Christian” enterprise in America would crumble if there were folks in the pew with the ability to discern good from evil. Spiritual ignorance has made room for charlatans to fleece the sheep … wolves in shepherd’s clothing financed by a pew that has put their trust in a man, in a movement, in a system that is not of God. Jesus has no authority or influence in such places.
“Transferred from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness and release from their sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified (set apart, made holy) by faith in Jesus.” (Acts 26:18 AMP)
BY FAITH IN JESUS! … not a man, not a theology, not a movement, not a system … but by faith in the Living Son of God! Praise God Almighty!
Jeffrey Chalmers: These abusers, and in this case a whole “system” ( church, school, publishing enterprise, etc) is supported by pew peons….
Sure, one can organize and create an enterprise, with lots of supporters.
If it has to do with God, the question is: Is God there?
There may be great numbers of followers, lots of resources, great talent, fame, influence, entertaining programming, kumbaya, potlucks, clubs & socializing, and piles of money. But is God present? Or, is it just use of God’s Name?
A group of people can be rich with stuff, without God. Group #1.
A group of people can be fully gifted by the Holy Spirit, living in the fruit of the Spirit with no other resources. Group #2.
Group #2 is the Body of Christ while Group #1 is not.
It may not be wrong for a church to have resources, own buildings, and pay staff. But it doesn’t really matter. The question is always: are the fruit and gifts of the Holy Spirit active and functioning? Because if not, it’s not church. Matthew 25: How we treat the least of the least is evidence, for one example.
Do numbers of members and lots of stuff replace the Holy Spirit? No, not really. But are these being used that way?
Satan offered numbers, notoriety, and nest eggs to Jesus but Jesus would have none of it. After refusing fortune and fame, Jesus went out and asked 12 ragtag guys to work with him. Matt. 4. Later, most of the guys, gifted by the Holy Spirit, worked with Jesus as Jesus founded the Church.
2 Kings 5: Elisha refused payment for healing Naaman. Elisha’s servant Gehazi then ran back to Naaman to collect. Gehazi ended up with what Naaman had left behind … diseased.
Collecting for what the Holy Spirit GIVES is dangerous business.
Substituting stuff for the Holy Spirit may/may not bring temporary rewards but will NEVER result in Eternal, Kingdom results. These are, at best, the lukewarmers in Rev. 3.15-16, spit out of God’s mouth. At worst, some are criminal enterprises.
Ava Aaronson: There may be great numbers of followers, lots of resources, great talent, fame, influence, entertaining programming, kumbaya, potlucks, clubs & socializing, and piles of money. But is God present? Or, is it just use of God’s Name?
= The Christian Industrial Complex in America
Ava Aaronson: Substituting stuff for the Holy Spirit may/may not bring temporary rewards but will NEVER result in Eternal, Kingdom results.
In my humble (but accurate) opinion, few churchgoers in America do not know the difference between doing church and living in the Kingdom of God in the here and now. The results produced by aligning yourself with one or the other are vastly different. The Holy Spirit is the power that drives the Kingdom of God, but if you were to lift the HS out of most churches, the stuff would still get done. Flesh is driving much of the church, not the Spirit.
Jeffrey Chalmers: Therein lies another aspect of all of these sad stories on TWW…. These abusers, and in this case a whole “system” ( church, school, publishing enterprise, etc) is supported by pew peons….
It is said Comrade Lenin got a big kick out of making the Capitalists give the money for their own destruction.
seneca: The bottom theological line is: “Dee, looking back at your life, are you not deserving of hell?”
Whatever would Christians ever do without Eternal Hell to threaten with?
Just like the Soviet Union, the Kingdom of GOD runs on Threats of Punishment.
During the Holocaust, at the Ravensbrück Internment location, Corrie and Betsy ten Boom were held captive with a variety of women.
A former call girl told the Christian ten Boom sisters that she was trash. Betsy answered, “We are ALL trash.”
IMHO, Betsy was referring to all falling short of the glory of God … equally undeserving of God’s generous love and grace.
Me, too.
seneca: The bottom theological line is: “Dee, looking back at your life, are you not deserving of hell?”
I can’t speak for dee, I can only speak for and defend myself.
Looking back on my life, I’ve concluded that no, I am not deserving of hell.
dee: Everyone, Seneca. You as well. I am a Lutheran.
Seneca took the Mark so yeah…it H E double hockey sticks….
Emilie,
My heart breaks for what you have endured not only from your abuser but from who should have protected you and stood with you but instead, betrayed you. But I am thankful that you are in a different place.
I am thankful you are experiencing yourself as a full, dignified, whole human being. I am thankful that you are in a place where you are feeling safe, feeling free, and experiencing peace and love.
I hope that in the times when you reflexively feel shame and guilt for what was done to you that you can remind yourself that it was never yours to begin with. It belongs to your abuser because it came out of him. He attempted to put his shame and guilt on you so that he wouldn’t experience it. I hope you can mentally hurl it back to him to deal with. You are clean of it. But I understand that it is hard to get an abuser entirely out of your head and heart and you have come a long way.
I know the journey to healing is not a straight path and there are ups and downs and you can think you’re doing well, and then suddenly hit another steep and rocky part.
But I hope that you will find an even deeper sense of dignity, healing, safety, freedom, peace, love, and joy and that you will have faithful companionship to share the road.
I also deeply appreciate the the price you have been willing to pay to share the truth and appreciate the courage that takes to do what is within your power to help others heal or to help them to avoid abuse altogether.
if in some perspective we’re all trash, by the same token we’re all magnificent.
(i’ll even include my brother-in-law… but i make exceptions for a few world class criminals)
sure, compared to a being made of pure light and love and everything else pure, of course we’re not going to be anything close to that.
so what. water is wet and bears blank in the woods.
how crazy to think God faults us for being created by him – for simply being born human – any more than he faults a bear for being born a bear.
i prefer the second perspective.
for emotional health, if nothing else.
Max: The American church would do well to preach stuff like that on occasion. It might scare the hell out of abuser-wannabes in both pulpit and pew.
To commit abuse, people lie to both themselves and to other people. And part of the lying is cultivating a “godly” image for themselves. With a “godly” image, they can lie to themselves about how much good they do which far outweighs the bad and they can lure in victims who don’t suspect them because of that “godly’ image. A “godly” image is also key to grooming other adults to come to their defense because those others have experienced the perp as a “good man” and so are inclined to minimize any reports as a misunderstanding on the victim’s part, a one-off “mistake” on the perp’s part, or the perp as somehow a victim of his victim.
No doubt all the antagonists in Emilie’s story have found a way to convince themselves that they are somehow “good guys,” that they did the right thing, or at least “not too bad” of a thing. It is highly likely that Emilie’s abuser told himself the same lies he told her.
The people covering up for abuse don’t let themselves think they are covering up. They will tell themselves that they are protecting an institution’s reputation (and since it’s “about” Jesus, that can tell themselves that means they are protecting God’s reputation.) Rationalizations leave people feeling guilt-free, so a hellfire sermon is likely to cause them to shake their heads and tut-tut at the other people they think it’s for.
When Jesus says, “It would be better for you to pluck your eye out,” we rightly label that hyperbole, but never stop to ask what idea the hyperbole was meant to get across. “You are the one in control of your own eyes, hands, and other body parts and you will be held fully responsible for what you do with them.” Maybe the message that you are in charge of your own behavior would help? But I don’t know. Culture change is hard and most church cultures support abusers, even if that wasn’t anyone’s intent at the beginning.
I shared with trepidation the ten Boom sisters’ story for this reason – that very statement taken out of context. Again, the context of Betsy ten Boom making that statement:
During the Holocaust, at the Ravensbrück Internment location, Corrie and Betsy ten Boom were held captive with a variety of women.
A former call girl told the Christian ten Boom sisters that she was trash. Betsy answered, “We are ALL trash.”*
IMHO, Betsy was referring to all falling short of the glory of God … equally undeserving of God’s generous love and grace.
More context: we are all created in the image of God, to be loved by God, to be friends with God. We all fall short of God’s expectations, but then God sent Jesus, His Son, to love us back into friendship with God, guided by His Holy Spirit. Etc.
Dee, you wrong me. I’ve NEVER thought you were an unbeliever. I’ve doubted your judgement about some of the people and some of the institutions you have attacked.
BTW
I could attend an LCMS church because they adhere to the fundamentals of the faith. The podcast I referenced DID NOT attack the LCMS; just noted some tertiary differences important only those those who are theological sticklers.
As for the “trash” debate;
______
Mankind has NEVER been Worthy of God grace but for reasons beyond human understanding, God found His people to be Worthwhile.
senecagriggs: Mankind has NEVER been Worthy of God’s grace but for reasons beyond human understanding, God found His people to be Worthwhile.
I don’t understand God’s decisions and actions as recorded in the story of Noah’s ark, when it appears that God kinda gave up on most of mankind.
But I do read that God created man and woman in His own image for friendship, IOW, fellowship with God Himself. So from the jump, worthwhile.
I also read that after Creation, there followed a Covenant, the Law, the Prophets, Jesus the Messiah, God’s own Holy Spirit dwelling with us, and the Body of Christ as God’s Elect.
So God has been engaged in restorative relationship with us humans, ever since Creation. Again, worthwhile.
We fall short but God continues to find us worthwhile. Priceless. No $$$ involved.
elastigirl: if in some perspective we’re all trash, by the same token we’re all magnificent.
BINGO.
We all have the ability to choose which we’ll be.
Some will claim (all allegedly backed up by the Bible) that our default condition is trash.
I no longer buy into this.
It’s cruel, unreasonable, and puts magnificent out of range.
sorry for being… too blunt, perhaps. (in the middle of finals for my college pursuits, 2.0 – brain & psychee over-taxed)
i understand your and Betsy’s point (i sound ornery, but that’s not how i’m feeling).
i know that verse (all have sinned & fallen short of the glory of God).
i think it helps make a logical argument. but i think it’s not the full picture, and a mistake to park there. i see lots of damage from that happening.
elastigirl: i think it helps make a logical argument. but i think it’s not the full picture, and a mistake to park there. i see lots of damage from that happening.
The ten Boom sisters in the Ravensbrück concentration camp were clearly parked in the love of God, the only place to park. They went on to generously help that young woman.
God’s loves includes made in the image of God, falling short of who we are made to be, restored by God’s grace, and walking in the fruit and gifts of God’s Spirit,
One can add as much context as needed to truly fill in the fullness of God’s love without picking apart the legacies of the ten Boom family, who risked all to save others in the Holocaust. Most ten Booms died in the camps. They truly lived the love of God.
No need to be contrary to Betsy as her life was God’s love lived. We can add the complete story of God’s love, however. There’s always more to the story.
Betsy was not damaging or degrading anyone. She was humbling herself. She was talking about herself and her own complete need for God’s grace.
Quick comment about “we are ALL trash.” True in the sense as the Bible teaches ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
But that is where prevenient grace comes into play. God restoring us enough we truly can choose to do differently and choose God’s way, with His help.
Until you know you are trash, you cannot access the power to be not trash. And we cannot know we are trash until we receive that prevenient grace. Free will is real, and so is total depravity. (Which, again, is not being as ornery as we can be, just that all facets of our being are less than they would have been had there been no fall. Not as physically perfect, or morally perfect, or emotionally perfect, etc.)
And no less than Jesus said if He was lifted up He would draw (drag) all to Himself. So the prevenient grace is universal, for all.
But woe to those that reject it and try to either be happy living in sin or deny that they are sinners or worse yet, substitute their own “righteousness.”
I wonder how many people have been hurt by Doug’s church? I know I interacted with a gal while I was in college online from the same school she was going to. I met her on a dating site and once her dad found out (we were both 21 at the time), he ended our conversation and sent me some emails on how I wasn’t Christian enough to date his daughter.
Headless Unicorn Guy: Whatever would Christians ever do without Eternal Hell to threaten with?
Just like the Soviet Union, the Kingdom of GOD runs on Threats of Punishment.
And this has a side effect:
It arrests moral development at the Toddler Level:
AVOID PUNISHMENT AT ALL COSTS.
Christian Nation, convert or You Get PUNISHED?
AVOID PUNISHMENT AT ALL COSTS.
Antichrist pops up, demands you Take The Mark or You Get PUNISHED?
AVOID PUNISHMENT AT ALL COSTS.
Then Christ returns, hammers down Antichrist like a Tent Peg and PUNISHES him into the Lake of Fire, you flip 180 and start sing hymns?
AVOID PUNISHMENT AT ALL COSTS.
Josh McDowell: he ended our conversation and sent me some emails on how I wasn’t Christian enough to date his daughter
Wasn’t Christian enough or wasn’t Calvinist enough?
Betsy ten Boom wasn’t in my mind in processing my thoughts. no commentary on her or her family intended.
just on worm theology.
elastigirl: Betsy ten Boom wasn’t in my mind in processing my thoughts.
It’s her quote, as noted in the original comment, a very specific conversation in very particular circumstances, all noted. And, she was talking about herself and her sister.
And I added myself with MeToo.
I suppose Betsy could have said, “We are all magnificent,” but that was not what she said.
Anyway, it’s Betsy’s quote about Betsy and Corrie and the ten Booms. Truly amazing people.
(i’m in the middle of a brutal academic marathon at the moment and don’t have access to 100% of my brain power — i know quote attribution is important.)
i know that was not the sum total of her thoughts on the subject.
i’ve heard things worded in similar ways by many people/sources, and was responding to the general notion. my thoughts are no reflection of her as a person.
elastigirl: i’ve heard things worded in similar ways by many people/sources, and was responding to the general notion. my thoughts are no reflection of her as a person.
It’s good that we’re all up-front and honest with one another here at TWW.
At other places, I’ve seen these kinds of discussions degenerate into rancor and hostility.
“But that is where prevenient grace comes into play. God restoring us enough we truly can choose to do differently and choose God’s way, with His help.
Until you know you are trash, you cannot access the power to be not trash. And we cannot know we are trash until we receive that prevenient grace.”
++++++++++++++++++
i’ve grown up christian and i’ve never thought of myself as/known myself to be trash (or anyone else).
i have a lively & demonstrative relationship with God… can’t imagine what this thing is that i haven’t received from God.
i’ve said this many times – my atheist / muslim hindu buddhist friends and family are paragons of kindness, patience, generosity, honesty, integrity…
it is beneath them to act otherwise.
if these things are not God’s way, i’ll need a strong reasoned, logical argument as to why.
the difference between them (my atheist friends/family, at least) and a ‘christian’ is that they didn’t need an outside source telling them the ‘right’ behavior.
they didn’t need an outside source empowering them to choose these things.
it’s not transactional for them – they choose their conduct for no other reason than it’s right and appropriate to be kind, generous, honest, etc.
there’s zero self-interest, and a need or desire to please or appease a higher power is not part of the equation.
it’s not to say God/Jesus/Holy Spirit aren’t real and interactive upon the asking.
my feeling is that God/Jesus/Holy Spirit speed things up (the process) when needed and in response to our petitioning.
sometimes even without our asking. or even knowing.
my friends and family who don’t sport the “i’m a christian” lapel sticker,
and who don’t do typical faith pursuits,
have something of God and know something of God –
the terminology is just different.
all i’ve said here goes against the christian party line. doesn’t mean it’s not real and true.
it’s dumb to do otherwise. most people most of the time don’t have ill-intent. no need to make a fuss.
Muff Potter: It’s good that we’re all up-front and honest with one another here at TWW.
At other places, I’ve seen these kinds of discussions degenerate into rancor and hostility.
So let’s leave it alone, ’cause we can’t see eye to eye
There ain’t no good guy, there ain’t no bad guy
There’s only you and me and we just disagree
— Dave Mason 1977 —
Well said seneca, the call from our first appearing (working estimate 80,000 YA) was to not use each other, nor lie, steal or murder in a contingent world (miscontruing male AND female pulling together like Grudem; or usable land shifts after Ice Ages). The very first covenants described, that have come down to us (Adam and Eve, Cain, Lamech) laid down that the culprit should receive (concretely) LESS punishment than they had given another unprovoked. Holy Spirit was giving an example of looking to Himself for strength in virtues including wise discerning, and to God as Son for better vindication in our vulnerability than we could get by ourselves.
elastigirl, Ava,
Some of us got too used to upwardly mobile trolls telling us we were even more depraved (in an ad hominem, sick sense) than them. Falling short means short on power for virtue including honesty with ourselves about our surroundings. Of the glory of God = that His gifts worked in us. My acquaintance’s disabled acquaintance was told that in order to enter into the cynics’ status bubble he could receive the gifts of the movement to manoeuvre (details withheld).
– further to Lamech –
It may be he usurped a right to enforce an advantageous outcome (aping God-given cases), just like the cynics and culprits we got to know (flaunting their sacred connections): because it is not God but Lamech relating these terms in that verse.
Actually, her name is Emily Dye Paige. I checked out her medium page, and that’s how it is.
Possibly off on a tangent, but does the name “Katie Botkin” ring any bells?
The name sounds very familiar, but I can’t place it.
Recently I came across an essay by hers on a subject that’s one of my regular rant topics: how Christians can stifle creativity: https://medium.com/@katherineheline/why-the-devil-gets-all-the-good-music-dbe4335e7098
Michael in UK: Some of us got too used to upwardly mobile trolls telling us we were even more depraved (in an ad hominem, sick sense) than them.
“More Utterly Depraved Than Thou” — now doesn’t that sound like a really sicko form of Bragging Rights?
Like (spoiler alert) that Starkweather-clone ghost in Peter Jackson’s The Frighteners who’s trying to posthumously top the body counts of all other serial killers?
AND this explains the real meaning of penal substitution. It wasn’t God the Father that punished God the Son. It was the world that punished Him. Like it punishes you and me when we don’t want to join in with it in punishing everyone else. Don’t listen to the theology faker, Jonathan Edwards. The real God is angry about the damaging impulse everywhere, that’s why He demonstrated that He was taking it on Himself. Inbreathing and bestowing Holy Spirit isn’t an eccentricity, it is how He can give effect to this in a contingent world. (In any event Jonathan Edwards had to have go at the gin sodden generation around him. Since the Library of Congress got burned down – by guess who – federal colonial records such as social history have been depleted.)
Like the false church punishes us when we don’t want to join in with it.
” I may have been legally over-age for much of the most physical sexual abuse, but mentally and emotionally, I was entirely incapable of consenting.” This quote, I believe, is the sum and substance of why Jim Nance is 100% At fault, and Doug Wilson totally failed in protecting Emilie.
A reminder to Christian leaders who sexually abuse children under their watch: Hell is hot and hell is long. There is a millstone with your name on it.
Max,
Amen Max….
I agree with youu.
Max,
I do believe that there is punishment in the afterlife for abusers.
Her comparison of her abuser’s reaction to her future fiancé’s reaction made me go down memory lane.
Two of my first boyfriends were Christian. One assaulted me and cheated on me, the other assaulted me and was emotionally abusive.
I also dated an atheist and then a non-practicing Catholic man during that period of my life (not all at the same time). They were both caring and respectful, and far more “safe” than my so-called Christian boyfriends.
In spite of what I’d been told growing up that you shouldn’t be “unequally yoked” and “relationships with Christian men are better because Jesus is better” and yada yada, it was the two non-religious men who set the bar for the man I ended up marrying.
Probably one of the bigger reasons I left the church for several years in my twenties. It’s kind of disorienting when “the world” you’ve been taught so much to fear turns out to be more trustworthy than the faith you were taught to trust growing up.
Just saying.
Heartbreaking.
If you want to know more about Doug Wilson’s disgusting cult, there is a lot at Kate Botkin’s blog – she also has experienced his duplicity and authoritarianism firsthand: https://kbotkin.com/tag/doug-wilson/
Sarah (aka Wild Honey),
“It’s kind of disorienting when “the world” you’ve been taught so much to fear turns out to be more trustworthy than the faith you were taught to trust growing up.
Just saying.”
+++++++++++++++
you can say it again.
i was sold a bill of goods. it’s total bullsh|t.
so unconscionable… manipulating people in one of their most vulnerable contexts – their sense of self in relation to God, creator of the universe, the Supreme Being.
to create an insular group, wary of outsiders, to co-opt for many purposes i’d argue are laced with self-interest.
.
.
the kindest, most generous, gracious, honest & most sincere people are expressly *not* christian.
… is embedded in a larger cult called New Calvinism. The rest of them may act a bit more civilized, but they share the same rotten attitude about women in their heart of hearts.
A sobering thought, indeed.
Therein lies a huge problem with most churchgoers … they (generic they) put more trust in an expression of faith, rather than the subject of faith which is Christ. The belief and practice of mere men will often let you down, but never Jesus. Not everything we call Christian is Christlike.
Well, they give that very little thought on this side of eternity.
“the sexually immoral … will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8)
“they will go away to eternal punishment” (Matthew 25:46)
“punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His might” (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
“into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 13:50)
The American church would do well to preach stuff like that on occasion. It might scare the hell out of abuser-wannabes in both pulpit and pew.
And the “Say the Exact Words at the Altar Call” school of Salvation does NOT help.
Especially when tag-teamed with “Once Saved, Always Saved”.
Amen. That is so important. So many people who undergo horrific abuse in a “Christian” context tragically yet understandably end up abandoning their Christian faith. That’s yet another reason why Jesus mentioned millstones.
But God isn’t the problem here. People are. Jesus will never let us down. But boy, some of His “representatives” sure will.
Amen.
Sarah (aka Wild Honey),
Yup….
Thank you, Emilie Paige Dye, for sharing the rest of your story.
The predator teacher would fall under the category of demon possessed, if there is such a category, IMHO. He is certainly a criminal. What a coward! Pedophiles are always cowards. Fat old guy going after young girls he seeks to control. What a loser. Yuk.
Thank God, you escaped the creepy monster.
Checked out the link.
If the great and mighty Kirk with all of its appendages throughout the Moscow community is nothing but plagiarism and pedophilia at its core … then there is nothing great or mighty about it, going on in Moscow or its sphere of influence. Plagiarism and pedophilia are weak at best, but in essence, criminal.
Emilie Page Dye and her crew put out fires. The Kirk, meanwhile, plays with fire, a fool’s enterprise.
Big disappointment masked by marketing. Nothing but a veneer hiding lowlife nonsense and criminality.
When the naked truth is ugly, run and seek distance.
This has nothing to do with the God we know.
Somewhere in Moscow, there’s a tiny little man running a grand enterprise while hiding behind an even smaller little curtain, shouting, “Keep your eyes on the Imax screen, everyone.”
Meanwhile, along comes a cool breeze, the wind of the Holy Spirit?, blowing aside the curtain, exposing the verbose little man. Oops.
Eyes go there.
My heart breaks for Dye and those who have experienced similar abuse. My prayer is that one day she realizes that her struggle is not with Christ or Christianity, but with those who masquerade in His Name while promoting kingdoms of a lesser god, namely themselves.
As the parent of a child who was sexually abused as an infant, this sickens me and breaks my heart. I find it both revolting and sad. Emilie’s abuser will indeed stand before God and reap what he has sown. God will not be mocked, and this man will pay. The man is sickening, but he will be called to account. I am also heartbroken for Emilie. She is out of the man’s orbit and he is no longer her abuser. To read that she is “happily living in sin with her partner” breaks my heart. While she will NEVER, and I do mean NEVER, have to account for the abuses she suffered as those are HIS sins, she will be held to account for the choices she is making now.
I do not know what led her abuser to his own path of filth and sin. Perhaps he was abused as a child. Even if he was that does not excuse his behavior ands give him license to sin.
And sadly, having been abused does not give Emilie license to sin. This is a common reaction among the abused when the abuser claims to be Christian, Muslim, or whatever faith and makes much of that. The abused generally reject that faith and live out their lives in a way that thumbs the nose at the rules of that faith.
As bad as what he did was to her physically, what he did to her soul is even worse. And while I weep for what she suffered physically, I deeply mourn for what she is choosing now.
And pray she finds healing such as to allow her to find physical, emotional, and spiritual health.
And as an aside, yes, our abused child did grow up to be abusive. What happened to him as a baby was not his fault, the choices he made as an adult were.
Many who are church leaders in America are not ambassadors for Christ.
Amen.
Jesus warned that many will come in His name, deceiving many. Matt. 24.5ff
Yes.
I’d been told growing up that you shouldn’t be “unequally yoked” and “relationships with Christian men are better …… ”
Sarah (aka Wild Honey),
Unequally yoked… Christian men……. just makes me want to laugh, yet I can’t. Most religions (including evangelical Christians (….Doug Wilson’s Kirk, IBF, SBC….) actually create, fervently support, insist upon unequal yokes between males and females both in and outside of their own churches. When a man is always in control, and woman is always expected to submit, it forms an unequal yoke.
I wonder what Ms. Paige’s parents have to say about the choices they made for their children, and what it has cost them (especially E. D.)???
Thanks for sharing this account.
I’m sorry for what you experienced. I’m furious at that fat b..tard of a man. What a creep.
Under even the best of circumstances, few people make from childhood to adulthood with perfect sexual records, despite what people like to portray. Your situation was completely fouled up because of the inexcusable and immoral actions of this guy.
The good thing you are doing is moving on. Growing up. Keep doing that.
I wish you the best going forward.
I hope your abuser’s identity and actions become known far and wide. He has a lot to answer for, hurting a young precious girl such as yourself.
Which is the term that should be used for real-deal Christians who attend New Calvinist institutions.
That is the part of this sad story that is most heartbreaking for me … to cast a child into a cult and become detached. I mean, Doug Wilson’s reputation was already out there! Institutions take on the personality of its leadership.
Max,
Therein lies another aspect of all of these sad stories on TWW…. These abusers, and in this case a whole “system” ( church, school, publishing enterprise, etc) is supported by pew peons….
The women associated with the school that first called out this specific abuser is a hero… especially acting in that depraved system..
As I mention in the previous post, and seems to have disappeared…. To some extend, I understand the depraved system that Doug Wilson has created ( i went to a fundy school that was similar), and recognizing the depravity, and standing up to it takes real courage..
Can I say something without getting my a$$ in a sling again?
I suspect that Idaho is a different culture altogether.
And not just Idaho, my own home State of Wisconsin is a very similar culture.
Both places are great environments for the Doug Wilsons of the world, because they’d never make it in say, Southern California.
Not that SoCal is some paragon of righteousness, but you get what I mean.
“Equally Yoked” was the name of a CHRISTIAN video dating service I dumped $600 into a couple years after my breakup with Ann. My experience there and at a subsequent CHRISTIAN dating service was a complete disaster..
You see, I was never that interested in sex. I was interested in COMPANIONSHIP, something I could never find in a time and place where there was only Sex Sex Sex. There can be no companionship when all there is is Sex Sex Sex. And there can also be no companionship with walking Jack Chick tracts.
Remember all the Manosphere memes about Hypergamy and Unrealistic Expectations? Christian single women have them, too. The “who I am” profiles at EQ came across as something out of a Jack Chick Tract, and the “who I’m looking for” was a Perfect SCRIPTURAL/Spiritual 11, so CHRISTIAN even Christ Himself couldn’t measure up.
The Christian Redoubt successor to Colorado Springs, home of White Aryan Resistance, Covenant Sword Arm of The LORD, and similar fringe group bunkers. Right next door to Montana, which the FBI profiler who worked on Unabmomber describes as “the place to live if you’re completely asocial and just want to get away from everybody else”.
How many churches cultivate a culture of relationships and companionship? Inclusive?
“I do believe that there is punishment in the afterlife for abusers.” Dee
______________
Does this include abusive females? Not necessarily sexually abusive females? Or is this reserved for sexually abusive men only?
__________________
The bottom theological line is: “Dee, looking back at your life, are you not deserving of hell?”
Everyone, Seneca. You as well. I am a Lutheran., LCMS, in case you want to prove that is wrong Lutheran. Of course, I believe I’m deserving of hell. My answer disappointed you because you always seem to hope to prove I am not a genuine believer. Give it up and try to figure out why I am a believer.
Most of the “Christian” enterprise in America would crumble if there were folks in the pew with the ability to discern good from evil. Spiritual ignorance has made room for charlatans to fleece the sheep … wolves in shepherd’s clothing financed by a pew that has put their trust in a man, in a movement, in a system that is not of God. Jesus has no authority or influence in such places.
“Transferred from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness and release from their sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified (set apart, made holy) by faith in Jesus.” (Acts 26:18 AMP)
BY FAITH IN JESUS! … not a man, not a theology, not a movement, not a system … but by faith in the Living Son of God! Praise God Almighty!
Sure, one can organize and create an enterprise, with lots of supporters.
If it has to do with God, the question is: Is God there?
There may be great numbers of followers, lots of resources, great talent, fame, influence, entertaining programming, kumbaya, potlucks, clubs & socializing, and piles of money. But is God present? Or, is it just use of God’s Name?
A group of people can be rich with stuff, without God. Group #1.
A group of people can be fully gifted by the Holy Spirit, living in the fruit of the Spirit with no other resources. Group #2.
Group #2 is the Body of Christ while Group #1 is not.
It may not be wrong for a church to have resources, own buildings, and pay staff. But it doesn’t really matter. The question is always: are the fruit and gifts of the Holy Spirit active and functioning? Because if not, it’s not church. Matthew 25: How we treat the least of the least is evidence, for one example.
Do numbers of members and lots of stuff replace the Holy Spirit? No, not really. But are these being used that way?
Satan offered numbers, notoriety, and nest eggs to Jesus but Jesus would have none of it. After refusing fortune and fame, Jesus went out and asked 12 ragtag guys to work with him. Matt. 4. Later, most of the guys, gifted by the Holy Spirit, worked with Jesus as Jesus founded the Church.
2 Kings 5: Elisha refused payment for healing Naaman. Elisha’s servant Gehazi then ran back to Naaman to collect. Gehazi ended up with what Naaman had left behind … diseased.
Collecting for what the Holy Spirit GIVES is dangerous business.
Substituting stuff for the Holy Spirit may/may not bring temporary rewards but will NEVER result in Eternal, Kingdom results. These are, at best, the lukewarmers in Rev. 3.15-16, spit out of God’s mouth. At worst, some are criminal enterprises.
= The Christian Industrial Complex in America
In my humble (but accurate) opinion, few churchgoers in America do not know the difference between doing church and living in the Kingdom of God in the here and now. The results produced by aligning yourself with one or the other are vastly different. The Holy Spirit is the power that drives the Kingdom of God, but if you were to lift the HS out of most churches, the stuff would still get done. Flesh is driving much of the church, not the Spirit.
should read “most”
It is said Comrade Lenin got a big kick out of making the Capitalists give the money for their own destruction.
Whatever would Christians ever do without Eternal Hell to threaten with?
Just like the Soviet Union, the Kingdom of GOD runs on Threats of Punishment.
During the Holocaust, at the Ravensbrück Internment location, Corrie and Betsy ten Boom were held captive with a variety of women.
A former call girl told the Christian ten Boom sisters that she was trash. Betsy answered, “We are ALL trash.”
IMHO, Betsy was referring to all falling short of the glory of God … equally undeserving of God’s generous love and grace.
Me, too.
I can’t speak for dee, I can only speak for and defend myself.
Looking back on my life, I’ve concluded that no, I am not deserving of hell.
Seneca took the Mark so yeah…it H E double hockey sticks….
Emilie,
My heart breaks for what you have endured not only from your abuser but from who should have protected you and stood with you but instead, betrayed you. But I am thankful that you are in a different place.
I am thankful you are experiencing yourself as a full, dignified, whole human being. I am thankful that you are in a place where you are feeling safe, feeling free, and experiencing peace and love.
I hope that in the times when you reflexively feel shame and guilt for what was done to you that you can remind yourself that it was never yours to begin with. It belongs to your abuser because it came out of him. He attempted to put his shame and guilt on you so that he wouldn’t experience it. I hope you can mentally hurl it back to him to deal with. You are clean of it. But I understand that it is hard to get an abuser entirely out of your head and heart and you have come a long way.
I know the journey to healing is not a straight path and there are ups and downs and you can think you’re doing well, and then suddenly hit another steep and rocky part.
But I hope that you will find an even deeper sense of dignity, healing, safety, freedom, peace, love, and joy and that you will have faithful companionship to share the road.
I also deeply appreciate the the price you have been willing to pay to share the truth and appreciate the courage that takes to do what is within your power to help others heal or to help them to avoid abuse altogether.
Ava Aaronson,
“We are ALL trash.”
++++++++++++++++
maybe it’s one of those optical illusions.
if in some perspective we’re all trash, by the same token we’re all magnificent.
(i’ll even include my brother-in-law… but i make exceptions for a few world class criminals)
sure, compared to a being made of pure light and love and everything else pure, of course we’re not going to be anything close to that.
so what. water is wet and bears blank in the woods.
how crazy to think God faults us for being created by him – for simply being born human – any more than he faults a bear for being born a bear.
i prefer the second perspective.
for emotional health, if nothing else.
To commit abuse, people lie to both themselves and to other people. And part of the lying is cultivating a “godly” image for themselves. With a “godly” image, they can lie to themselves about how much good they do which far outweighs the bad and they can lure in victims who don’t suspect them because of that “godly’ image. A “godly” image is also key to grooming other adults to come to their defense because those others have experienced the perp as a “good man” and so are inclined to minimize any reports as a misunderstanding on the victim’s part, a one-off “mistake” on the perp’s part, or the perp as somehow a victim of his victim.
No doubt all the antagonists in Emilie’s story have found a way to convince themselves that they are somehow “good guys,” that they did the right thing, or at least “not too bad” of a thing. It is highly likely that Emilie’s abuser told himself the same lies he told her.
The people covering up for abuse don’t let themselves think they are covering up. They will tell themselves that they are protecting an institution’s reputation (and since it’s “about” Jesus, that can tell themselves that means they are protecting God’s reputation.) Rationalizations leave people feeling guilt-free, so a hellfire sermon is likely to cause them to shake their heads and tut-tut at the other people they think it’s for.
When Jesus says, “It would be better for you to pluck your eye out,” we rightly label that hyperbole, but never stop to ask what idea the hyperbole was meant to get across. “You are the one in control of your own eyes, hands, and other body parts and you will be held fully responsible for what you do with them.” Maybe the message that you are in charge of your own behavior would help? But I don’t know. Culture change is hard and most church cultures support abusers, even if that wasn’t anyone’s intent at the beginning.
After the last sermon on the last day of the world, the last abusive preacher will no doubt get a standing ovation.
Very ugly statement on its own.
I shared with trepidation the ten Boom sisters’ story for this reason – that very statement taken out of context. Again, the context of Betsy ten Boom making that statement:
During the Holocaust, at the Ravensbrück Internment location, Corrie and Betsy ten Boom were held captive with a variety of women.
A former call girl told the Christian ten Boom sisters that she was trash. Betsy answered, “We are ALL trash.”*
IMHO, Betsy was referring to all falling short of the glory of God … equally undeserving of God’s generous love and grace.
More context: we are all created in the image of God, to be loved by God, to be friends with God. We all fall short of God’s expectations, but then God sent Jesus, His Son, to love us back into friendship with God, guided by His Holy Spirit. Etc.
Context.
*If quoted, please include the entire context.
Eyewitness,
Thank you very much for your insights. God bless.
Dee, you wrong me. I’ve NEVER thought you were an unbeliever. I’ve doubted your judgement about some of the people and some of the institutions you have attacked.
BTW
I could attend an LCMS church because they adhere to the fundamentals of the faith. The podcast I referenced DID NOT attack the LCMS; just noted some tertiary differences important only those those who are theological sticklers.
As for the “trash” debate;
______
Mankind has NEVER been Worthy of God grace but for reasons beyond human understanding, God found His people to be Worthwhile.
I don’t understand God’s decisions and actions as recorded in the story of Noah’s ark, when it appears that God kinda gave up on most of mankind.
But I do read that God created man and woman in His own image for friendship, IOW, fellowship with God Himself. So from the jump, worthwhile.
I also read that after Creation, there followed a Covenant, the Law, the Prophets, Jesus the Messiah, God’s own Holy Spirit dwelling with us, and the Body of Christ as God’s Elect.
So God has been engaged in restorative relationship with us humans, ever since Creation. Again, worthwhile.
We fall short but God continues to find us worthwhile. Priceless. No $$$ involved.
BINGO.
We all have the ability to choose which we’ll be.
Some will claim (all allegedly backed up by the Bible) that our default condition is trash.
I no longer buy into this.
It’s cruel, unreasonable, and puts magnificent out of range.
Ava Aaronson,
sorry for being… too blunt, perhaps. (in the middle of finals for my college pursuits, 2.0 – brain & psychee over-taxed)
i understand your and Betsy’s point (i sound ornery, but that’s not how i’m feeling).
i know that verse (all have sinned & fallen short of the glory of God).
i think it helps make a logical argument. but i think it’s not the full picture, and a mistake to park there. i see lots of damage from that happening.
The ten Boom sisters in the Ravensbrück concentration camp were clearly parked in the love of God, the only place to park. They went on to generously help that young woman.
God’s loves includes made in the image of God, falling short of who we are made to be, restored by God’s grace, and walking in the fruit and gifts of God’s Spirit,
One can add as much context as needed to truly fill in the fullness of God’s love without picking apart the legacies of the ten Boom family, who risked all to save others in the Holocaust. Most ten Booms died in the camps. They truly lived the love of God.
No need to be contrary to Betsy as her life was God’s love lived. We can add the complete story of God’s love, however. There’s always more to the story.
Betsy was not damaging or degrading anyone. She was humbling herself. She was talking about herself and her own complete need for God’s grace.
Quick comment about “we are ALL trash.” True in the sense as the Bible teaches ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
But that is where prevenient grace comes into play. God restoring us enough we truly can choose to do differently and choose God’s way, with His help.
Until you know you are trash, you cannot access the power to be not trash. And we cannot know we are trash until we receive that prevenient grace. Free will is real, and so is total depravity. (Which, again, is not being as ornery as we can be, just that all facets of our being are less than they would have been had there been no fall. Not as physically perfect, or morally perfect, or emotionally perfect, etc.)
And no less than Jesus said if He was lifted up He would draw (drag) all to Himself. So the prevenient grace is universal, for all.
But woe to those that reject it and try to either be happy living in sin or deny that they are sinners or worse yet, substitute their own “righteousness.”
I wonder how many people have been hurt by Doug’s church? I know I interacted with a gal while I was in college online from the same school she was going to. I met her on a dating site and once her dad found out (we were both 21 at the time), he ended our conversation and sent me some emails on how I wasn’t Christian enough to date his daughter.
And this has a side effect:
It arrests moral development at the Toddler Level:
AVOID PUNISHMENT AT ALL COSTS.
Christian Nation, convert or You Get PUNISHED?
AVOID PUNISHMENT AT ALL COSTS.
Antichrist pops up, demands you Take The Mark or You Get PUNISHED?
AVOID PUNISHMENT AT ALL COSTS.
Then Christ returns, hammers down Antichrist like a Tent Peg and PUNISHES him into the Lake of Fire, you flip 180 and start sing hymns?
AVOID PUNISHMENT AT ALL COSTS.
Wasn’t Christian enough or wasn’t Calvinist enough?
Ava Aaronson,
Betsy ten Boom wasn’t in my mind in processing my thoughts. no commentary on her or her family intended.
just on worm theology.
It’s her quote, as noted in the original comment, a very specific conversation in very particular circumstances, all noted. And, she was talking about herself and her sister.
And I added myself with MeToo.
I suppose Betsy could have said, “We are all magnificent,” but that was not what she said.
Anyway, it’s Betsy’s quote about Betsy and Corrie and the ten Booms. Truly amazing people.
Ava Aaronson,
Must be a hot button. Good to be aware. Another learning experience here at TWW, via Betsy ten Boom and her statement from Ravensbrück.
Ava Aaronson,
i agree, amazing people.
(i’m in the middle of a brutal academic marathon at the moment and don’t have access to 100% of my brain power — i know quote attribution is important.)
i know that was not the sum total of her thoughts on the subject.
i’ve heard things worded in similar ways by many people/sources, and was responding to the general notion. my thoughts are no reflection of her as a person.
It’s good that we’re all up-front and honest with one another here at TWW.
At other places, I’ve seen these kinds of discussions degenerate into rancor and hostility.
linda,
“But that is where prevenient grace comes into play. God restoring us enough we truly can choose to do differently and choose God’s way, with His help.
Until you know you are trash, you cannot access the power to be not trash. And we cannot know we are trash until we receive that prevenient grace.”
++++++++++++++++++
i’ve grown up christian and i’ve never thought of myself as/known myself to be trash (or anyone else).
i have a lively & demonstrative relationship with God… can’t imagine what this thing is that i haven’t received from God.
i’ve said this many times – my atheist / muslim hindu buddhist friends and family are paragons of kindness, patience, generosity, honesty, integrity…
it is beneath them to act otherwise.
if these things are not God’s way, i’ll need a strong reasoned, logical argument as to why.
the difference between them (my atheist friends/family, at least) and a ‘christian’ is that they didn’t need an outside source telling them the ‘right’ behavior.
they didn’t need an outside source empowering them to choose these things.
it’s not transactional for them – they choose their conduct for no other reason than it’s right and appropriate to be kind, generous, honest, etc.
there’s zero self-interest, and a need or desire to please or appease a higher power is not part of the equation.
it’s not to say God/Jesus/Holy Spirit aren’t real and interactive upon the asking.
my feeling is that God/Jesus/Holy Spirit speed things up (the process) when needed and in response to our petitioning.
sometimes even without our asking. or even knowing.
my friends and family who don’t sport the “i’m a christian” lapel sticker,
and who don’t do typical faith pursuits,
have something of God and know something of God –
the terminology is just different.
all i’ve said here goes against the christian party line. doesn’t mean it’s not real and true.
Muff Potter,
well, why not.
it’s dumb to do otherwise. most people most of the time don’t have ill-intent. no need to make a fuss.
So let’s leave it alone, ’cause we can’t see eye to eye
There ain’t no good guy, there ain’t no bad guy
There’s only you and me and we just disagree
— Dave Mason 1977 —
senecagriggs,
(also elastigirl and Ava)
Well said seneca, the call from our first appearing (working estimate 80,000 YA) was to not use each other, nor lie, steal or murder in a contingent world (miscontruing male AND female pulling together like Grudem; or usable land shifts after Ice Ages). The very first covenants described, that have come down to us (Adam and Eve, Cain, Lamech) laid down that the culprit should receive (concretely) LESS punishment than they had given another unprovoked. Holy Spirit was giving an example of looking to Himself for strength in virtues including wise discerning, and to God as Son for better vindication in our vulnerability than we could get by ourselves.
elastigirl, Ava,
Some of us got too used to upwardly mobile trolls telling us we were even more depraved (in an ad hominem, sick sense) than them. Falling short means short on power for virtue including honesty with ourselves about our surroundings. Of the glory of God = that His gifts worked in us. My acquaintance’s disabled acquaintance was told that in order to enter into the cynics’ status bubble he could receive the gifts of the movement to manoeuvre (details withheld).
– further to Lamech –
It may be he usurped a right to enforce an advantageous outcome (aping God-given cases), just like the cynics and culprits we got to know (flaunting their sacred connections): because it is not God but Lamech relating these terms in that verse.
Actually, her name is Emily Dye Paige. I checked out her medium page, and that’s how it is.
Possibly off on a tangent, but does the name “Katie Botkin” ring any bells?
The name sounds very familiar, but I can’t place it.
Recently I came across an essay by hers on a subject that’s one of my regular rant topics: how Christians can stifle creativity: https://medium.com/@katherineheline/why-the-devil-gets-all-the-good-music-dbe4335e7098
The reason I’m asking here is because her byline also involves essays against Penetrate/Colonize/Conquer/Plant Wilson and his personal Kirk trying to do to Moscow ID what the Rajneehsees tried to do to Antelope OR:
https://medium.com/@katherineheline/the-emotional-price-of-spanking-f1df6f4e4b85
“More Utterly Depraved Than Thou” — now doesn’t that sound like a really sicko form of Bragging Rights?
Like (spoiler alert) that Starkweather-clone ghost in Peter Jackson’s The Frighteners who’s trying to posthumously top the body counts of all other serial killers?
Michael in UK,
AND this explains the real meaning of penal substitution. It wasn’t God the Father that punished God the Son. It was the world that punished Him. Like it punishes you and me when we don’t want to join in with it in punishing everyone else. Don’t listen to the theology faker, Jonathan Edwards. The real God is angry about the damaging impulse everywhere, that’s why He demonstrated that He was taking it on Himself. Inbreathing and bestowing Holy Spirit isn’t an eccentricity, it is how He can give effect to this in a contingent world. (In any event Jonathan Edwards had to have go at the gin sodden generation around him. Since the Library of Congress got burned down – by guess who – federal colonial records such as social history have been depleted.)
Like the false church punishes us when we don’t want to join in with it.
Max,
Calvinist-it was bizarre interaction with him.
Maybe because they don’t have to constantly expend all that energy acting Righteous and Godly.
They can just BE.
It’s all that Cheese…