But why don’t TGC remove all the erroneous content by the others – because erroneous? Christians should be known for speaking truth about God. Then missteps will appear in perspective – as consequence as it was for LG. He’s codependent not evil, but was evidently reinforcing others’ evil words. (It’s presumably not easy to tell, if one has been to the usual theology colleges.) All christians should implore God about the belief level of all ministers, and the state of their mutual relationships, in all churches.

Are we rejoicing that another Evangelical pastor has fallen?

Michael in UK,

I wrote the middle few words too weakly. Mrs Elzey has “something on” the other personnel, and Liam, weakened by the TGC / NF non-gospel, was eager to cement and authorise her & their years-long attempt to compromise a good man in their mutual dark bind.

We got too used to the sight of these posh-looking churches in England, some of which piped the videos of their counterparts.

seneca,

Count me out because I’m not. Can you define “evangelical” for us? And why were you not in despair about his non-gospel more than 9 years ago?

Are there “theological” schools / professional standards for church secretaries / non profit operatives? Because Mrs E might be the one that gets the ovation and another job.

Obviously LG knew the Virgo group far better than lowly I did; what’s in their background to attract others to their rank?

seneca:
Are we rejoicing that another Evangelical pastor has fallen?

No need to worry, Seneca.
He doesn’t count.
Presbyterian, NOT Evangelical.

dee: If he loved the church, he would have confessed.

He had 10 years to get around to that.

Lowlandseer:
PCA BOOK of Church Order – Discipline of a minister/teaching elder. Ch34.

https://www.pcaac.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/2023-BCO-PCA.pdf

It seems to me that their practice takes as its basis James Durham’s “ The dying man’s testament to the Church of Scotland, or, A treatise concerning scandal divided into four parts … : in each of which there are not a few choice and useful questions, very shortly and satisfyingly discussed and cleared
Durham, James, 1622-1658., Blair, Robert, 1593-1666.”

It is a complex work but the following excerpt is quite straightforward – “ The nature of this Ordinance cleareth this also; for (as Divines say) it is added to confirm Gods threatnings, as Sacraments do seal the promises; then it importeth, that there must be a clear threatning ere this can be appended; and there can be no such threatning applyed, but where both the sin in its na∣ture, and the fact in its notority are convincing; and indeed all the precedents of this Sentence in Scripture are of this nature, to wit, they are both rare, and also upon most convincingly grosse evils. I cannot ex∣presse it better than it is done by that Reverend Di∣vine, Mr. Thomas Hooker of New England in his Hi∣story, part 3. pag. 39. Such evils, (the words are his) which are either heynous and abommable, as fornication, murther, adultery, incest, treason, &c. or, if not so grosse, yet carry the face of evil in their forehead, upon the first serious and well grounded consideration of reason; and have been pertinaciously and obstinatly persisted in after the improvement of all means upon them for conviction and reformation: These only deserve Excommunication by the rules of Christ, 1 Cor. 5. Matth. 18. 17. ”
(taken from original text, hence the odd spelling).

Reformation Heritage Books have just republished Durham’s work in four short paperbacks in modern English, for anyone interested.

Friend,

Note to all:

The linked comment does not come from the TWW regular who has posted as Friend for years, ever since first reading TWW. That would be me.

I’m going to contact Dee and GBTC, but wanted to post this, to reduce confusion and give credit where it’s due. No biggie, yet it’s better not to have duplicate handles.

Max: He had 10 years to get around to that.

Which indicates that he is not a genuine believer.

In my opinion, a genuine believer can commit such sin. However, if God is truly who he says he is, he will convict of sin (John 16:8), he will complete the work of sanctifying his own (Philippian 1:6), and he is all powerful. That seems to indicate that a man would be under such great conviction (think Psalm 32:3-5), he or she could not function. This idea that you can sin in such a grievous way and it not be revealed is not found in the Bible.

Sorry Friend! I will change my name on here

Friend:
Friend,

Note to all:

The linked comment does not come from the TWW regular who has posted as Friend for years, ever since first reading TWW. That would be me.

I’m going to contact Dee and GBTC, but wanted to post this, to reduce confusion and give credit where it’s due. No biggie, yet it’s better not to have duplicate handles.

Godith: Maybe yearly checks are needed to be sure the elder, pastor, or officer remains “blameless.”

That should be an ongoing accountability process by the elder board. It obviously failed in this situation. Church members on the earlier post cited historical concerns about Mr. Goligher’s narcissistic behavior, yet he remained in the pulpit. You will find no examples of a Spirit-filled narcissistic pastor in the New Testament … such behavior is not a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Friend,

Thx for the clarification.

Friend 1 and Friend 2?

Muslin fka Dee Holmes: cease and desist

Praying for the day when church predators cease and desist.

Sarah (aka Wild Honey): Um, no.But, personally speaking, I’m glad another con man has been outed so that he can’t con anyone else.And, Lord willing, so that he can take this opportunity to turn over a new leaf.

Well-stated!!

Ava Aaronson,

I am Nancy2 for a reason.
I may drop the (aka Kevlar) one of these days, but I’ll keep the 2, in honor of the first Nancy.
There are still several commenters on here who remember her.

The GRACE report can be read in its entirety here
https://warhornmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/GRACETenth-Presbyterian-Report-Final-Report-11.21.23-copy-1.pdf

Gus: I miss her (Nancy a.k.a. Okrapod) wisdom and her humor.

Okrapod was the real deal.

Friend: When the elders asked Goligher about the Personal Conduct citation, he said that he was just eating lunch in the park. He also told them that he takes responsibility for making the situation look how it did. (My note… ?!?!? … arresting officer Chief Arnold gave Goligher and Susan Elzey a citation for Personal Conduct – sexual activity. They both pled guilty.)

Lunch date with extracurriculars?

Then lying about it. Not to the officer but to the church community.

From the video that “S” shared on the other post, the church leader seems to have an eye for the ladies. Instead of a heart for faithful commitment … faithful commitment to marriage, family, church, truth, etc.

Sometimes faithful commitment is not the most exciting life, but then Jesus was not necessarily about excitement. Jesus was never boring, though.

S*x, lies, and city citations. In the park. Hardly the bio of a church leader, except it is. Truth is stranger than what even Hollywood can produce. Chollywood.

Ava Aaronson: S*x, lies, and city citations

… and a big party with a standing ovation before he leaves Dodge?

Headless Unicorn Guy: You’re playing Goligher’s Game on Goligher’s home turf, Bob.
While you start things going about whether he is a genuine believer or not, you sidetrack everything into theological minutiae (Bible-verse Zip Codes and all — “QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE!”). And while we’re all bickering about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, he slips out the back door laughing.

Biblical minutae? They are simple biblical truths. It appears from that statement that you have a view of the Bible (the 66 regularly accepted books of Protestantism) that it just includes the word of God, or it is not inspired or inerrant, or some such thing. Can you clarify? These are simple statements from the Bible. They are not obscure.

Gus: I miss her (Nancy a.k.a. Okrapod) wisdom and her humor.

Max: Okrapod was the real deal.

I too miss her.
She was a rare gem.

Honestly, I haven’t followed LG’s career closely, but I’m actually neither surprised nor disappointed. Just sad for a church that seemed from afar to take Christianity seriously.
When I was a student on the Cornhill Training Course in London in 2004-2005, LG came to give a few (2 to 5?) lectures on 1 Peter, as I remember. But instead, he spent the first class speaking off the cuff and not very deeply from a portion of Romans, which he’d just preached on in the US. He was just off the plane, and I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, as he must have been tired and jetlagged. But it felt quite off, as if he were a student who hadn’t done his assignment and was trying to blag his way through this predicament. As a student, I could relate to that feeling of panic when you’re not ready, but he was a visiting lecturer, he didn’t apologize, in fact he seemed to be pushing the envelope as far as it would go. I seem to remember he was also provocative and quite cutting with students, and bizarrely insisted on bifurcating into the rights and wrongs of the American Revloution ( British students in the 21st century have long let that one go, so it was irrelevant).
The next time, he wasn’t off the plane, but was still teaching the wrong book, as he did until the end of the course, so we never covered that book of the Bible ( I may have got the books mixed up, but I think he had been assigned 1 Peter). One of the students, who was an apprentice at his church, said that this was quite characteristic of him. Now I have to say the other lecturers and the teachers on the course were not at all like this, they were very well prepared, humble and gentle.
It seemed like a little thing, and it never occurred to me to take this up with the leadership of the course, who weren’t present. TBH, it sounds rather like the Mahaneyesque inquisition to denounce someone for being truculent or brazen. But the odd thing is, I wouldn’t even put him down as a hypocrite. He was playing a game in plain sight, as if he were seeing how far he could go without getting a reaction. And from what the other students were saying, this was his modus operandi.
Another thing that bothered me at the time, was that he was hired as the pastor of Duke Street Baptist Church, a well-established church, and I was told he was the one who changed its doctrine to Presbyterianism/ paedobaptism, and got them to drop the “Baptist” from the name of the church. I thought it was off to, in a way, privatize an existing church’s theology.
At the time, he didn’t strike me as someone who was striving to be Christlike. I heard of his move to this extremely prestigious pulpit at 10th Presbyterian, and hoped I’d been too harsh on him, thinking there may be another side to him that warranted that trust.
You know, it’s so sad when you realise someone of whom you had a poor opinion was actually much worse, and the off-putting glimpse you caught was actually that person’s deep nature. I have never read any of his books, and do wonder if there is any basis to his reputation for brilliance, one I didn’t see in those lectures twenty years ago. In any case, you don’t want a brilliant preacher for a pastor. I don’t think he was even brilliant.
Anyway, it was a minor incident (although I knew I never wanted to have him as a pastor), but it may shed light for the people of 10th Presbyterian, or help make sense of certain things. There was something off. There always was…

Ava Aaronson:
Friend,

Thx for the clarification.

Friend 1 and Friend 2?

Sally and I did not know what to do,
So we had to shake hands with Friend 1 and Friend 2!

I bet you would like to hear from members of the church. I’m a member, and while I appreciate SOME of your efforts exposing problems in the church, when I read your approach I am constantly reminded of the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect that Michael Crichton talks about: someone reads a news article about a topic they know a lot about and discover its riddled with errors and then read about something they don’t know and just assume its all 100% well reported. Broken clocks may be right occasionally but maybe interview the wife of the Broken Clock? Have you done that?

Could I correct many of the errors? Sure. Why though? It would just provoke more cycles of speculation, gossip, and guesswork treated as truth. Violations of the 9th commandment all.

The speculation and hostile assumptions because everything is a “narrative” is really toxic here, even if some good comes from it. God can make good comes from even attackers. I just wish somehow it seemed the various “Watchdogs” and “Whistleblowers” didn’t rejoice so much in their own seeming vindication as they do mourn their own negative role in the pain that their work brings.

sigh.

Nancy2(aka Kevlar): I may drop the (aka Kevlar) one of these days, but I’ll keep the 2, in honor of the first Nancy.
There are still several commenters on here who remember her.

Thank you. She is missed.

Max: flatters

flatterers

Friend #2: Sorry Friend! I will change my name on here

Thank you. Welcome aboard!

Celia Eve: the odd thing is, I wouldn’t even put him down as a hypocrite. He was playing a game in plain sight, as if he were seeing how far he could go without getting a reaction. And from what the other students were saying, this was his modus operandi.

Thank-you Celia Eve for your comment. I found it illuminating and helpful.

Playing a game in plain sight seeing how far he can go without getting a reaction — that is a behaviour which is quite common with psychopaths. I am not diagnosing LG. I’m only saying what I’ve learned in general about the behaviour of psychopaths.

Celia Eve: There was something off. There always was …

I suspect many of the good folks at Tenth are now reflecting back on having had similar thoughts. God gives us flags if we watch and listen carefully.

Violations of the 9th commandment all.
Re-Member Me,

And then there’s the 7th commandment. But maybe I missed something. Do the commandments not apply to church leaders……. or should the 7th say, “Thou shalt not commit adultery, unless thou do so in a public place”?
He was arrested/cited. He pled guilty. The end……. Unless you can prove the police report is a lie, and the guilty plea is a lie

And an FYI: the work of “Watchdogs” and “Whistleblowers” are not what causes pain: the atrocities committed by the villains is what causes pain.

I was told that the congregation will vote on whether or not they accept his resignation. Am unsure what this really means.

Confused:
If LG has already resigned, why does he need to be voted out? He’s no longer employed by Tenth, surely?
Friend,

Trying one more time. I hope dee will delete my first two tries.

Barbara Asabre: First, David was not of the priestly line. He was not an elder or pastor. So he was not held to the same standard Goligher is.

Second, God allowed King David’s son with Bathsheba to DIE. And then David wept before God. He knew why God took the child. Will Goligher be shown God’s wrath and then be forced to see the great error of his way? Let us hope God shows this man judgement enough to help him be so humbled his evil may be plainly revealed to himself and others.

Barbara Asabre:
May God be merciful to Liam Goligher even as He was to King David (Psalm 51).

dee: Finally, someone is getting what I am hinting at!

Dee, I think you will like the post I will be publishing in a few hours.

cryingoutforjustice.blog

dee,

I do understand that he should not be a pastor ever again. I agree.

All I am saying is that God be merciful to him.

dee: Everything has disappeared at TGC. No explanation.

As of now, Comrade, he never existed. https://www.rferl.org/a/soviet-airbrushing-the-censors-who-scratched-out-history/29361426.html

GuyBehindtheCurtain: PS: Chaning your name around is a great way to get moderated.

In case you did not realize this: Friend 2 changed his/her handle because it duplicated the handle I have used for years on TWW. (I sent an email, but maybe it got lost in cyberspace.)

This newcomer just didn’t know there was already a person here named Friend, so no harm.

But there’s some potential for mischief. If people who don’t like comments decide to duplicate the handles of other posters, they could sow confusion or discredit others.

Thank you for everything you do. I know it’s time consuming and intricate work.

Friend 2: David was not of the priestly line. He was not an elder or pastor. So he was not held to the same standard Goligher is.

“My Christian friends, not many of you should become teachers. We people who teach God’s message must be very careful. When God judges everybody, He will demand more from us than from other people.” (James 3:1)

dee,

Yea…. If there was not so much “collateral damage”, this whole “activity in the park” is exactly what Monty Python would target….. and would be really funny….. but the damage done is a travisty

Lowlandseer: The GRACE report can be read in its entirety here
https://warhornmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/GRACETenth-Presbyterian-Report-Final-Report-11.21.23-copy-1.pdf

Guest: I can confirm that the reports posted online are the final GRACE report since I was one of the victims mentioned in the report.

Guest, I am so sorry for whatever you experienced at Tenth. I hope you are finding a measure of healing and that the leadership of Tenth will express genuine public repentance for what you and others experienced.

I have been reading through the GRACE report at the link shared by Lowlandseer. It is so much worse than a pastor and deaconess involved in an adulterous liaison in a park.

Paul Jones. Of the same ilk as Jonathan Fletcher and John Smyth.

So many accounts of procedural hurdles for victims or their allies that interfered with the victim or others being protected. A tendency for leaders to prioritize their concern to be careful with the reputation of the person when complaints were brought forward, many of whom were women. Sometimes large groups of women all making similar complaints about the same man.

Still reading through the report. Let’s pray that Tenth responds with true repentance and care for those harmed at the church over the years.

Also, my impression as I have read through the report is that ignorance can do almost as much damage as deliberate attempts to hide truth.

Churches have much to learn from organizations such as GRACE as well as from blogs like this one. Once you see the same patterns play out in situation after situation, it is eye opening. It sends you to the Scriptures as a whole to understand abusive situations rather than to a few favorite proof texts. Matt. 18:15-20 may win the prize for “Scripture citation most likely to be misapplied and result in the protection of wolves.”

The abuse of the leaders of this church goes very deep, and the damage and harm spreads further than just the church body and its members. Families are being split apart by the vile actions that have occurred. Through their actions, Wynne and Goligher have harmed so many, including those who have gone to them for counseling for sexual, emotional, and spiritual abuse. Those who have gone through counseling with these men only to learn of this have been revictimized, betrayed by those they trusted to help them who were guilty of the same.

P.S. This is not abstract for me, this situation, the corruption of leadership of this church, the lies and abuse of these men is tearing my life and my family apart, and I am struggling to see any bright future or hope from God that it will be made right.

Friend #2,

Friend#2,

I’m assuming you’re the person who submitted a comment as Friend 2 on our blog at A Cry For Justice requesting that we let you know when Barbara Roberts published her post on Liam Goligher. 🙂 My apologies if I’m incorrect. 🙂

And my apologies if there is a delay in my comment appearing — it might get hung up in customs, as I’ve not previously commented on The Wartburg Watch using this screen name.

The link to Barbara Robert’s post on Liam Goligher, titled Liam Goligher turns out to be a wolf in shepherd’s clothing is:

https://cryingoutforjustice.blog/2023/12/13/liam-goligher-turns-out-to-be-a-wolf-in-shepherds-clothing/

Re-Member Me: “Now for a tricky question. Did any church leaders know of this indiscretion and cover it up? Is it time to get a fresh slate of leaders? I think they should.”

From what I’ve heard the church leaders did *not* know about the 2014 offense. But what *is* clear from the GRACE report is that the church has a culture of protecting the “good reputation” of offenders rather than taking care of the victims. The culture needs to be one of full openness and transparency – and on that score it really wouldn’t hurt to have some women in leadership positions. Since woman was *also* made in God’s image, it stands to reason that men cannot represent the full image and character of God. Male only leadership will always be deficient.

Quotidian: I think that a lot of sordid assumptions have been made.

With good reason. Your pastor acted out in a city park, and the citation is embarrassing for the church. There is a reason he resigned. I bet he would not have done so if he was cited for singing hymns too loudly. This was not a case of being seen eating a lovely lunch with a gal pal. It runs much deeper.

Quotidian: What bothers me about several of these watchdog groups is the ugliness of the commenting. We are not to even “talk about the things that are done in darkness

Hmmm. you see ugliness. I see people who the church has wounded. I think it is essential for true believers to understand and respond to those who have been harmed. Here is a resource for you to consider.
https://www.amazon.com/Subtle-Power-Spiritual-Abuse-Manipulation/dp/0764201379/ref=sr_1_1?crid=30M1FZAOS4LDY&keywords=the+subtle+tyranny+of+spiritual+abuse&qid=1702487082&sprefix=the+subtle+tyranny+of+spirituall+abuse%2Caps%2C82&sr=8-1
I’m afraid I have to disagree with your out-of-context admonition not to “talk about things done in darkness.” We are to talk about sin in the camp: pastors who abuse sexually, emotionally, spiritually.” For way too long, people have used the “be quiet” verses to cover up sin. We are called to be a light on the hill. We cannot control what people see when they look at the church exposed to that light. If current stats are correct, many people are leaving the church due to sin that has been covered up.

Quotidian: We ought to show compassion!

Hmmm, isn’t that the case? See comments on this post of people whom Goligher’s embarrassing actions have wounded. Others have been injured in other churches. Yet you call their comments “ugly.” How about showing compassion?

Muff Potter,

And if you want some fun
Take Ob-la-di-bla-da!

dee: I am seeing some folks who are so upset that their pastor has resigned they hope to prove it was nothing. It was just a simple misunderstanding by the police.

According to a comment upstream by Ira “The “arresting officer” was CHIEF park ranger, Benjamin Arnold.” I suspect Mr. Arnold was adequately trained to distinguish proper from improper behavior in a public place.

Quotidian: We are not to even “talk about the things that are done in darkness.”

Jesus said “There is nothing covered up which is not going to be exposed nor anything private which will not be made public. The things I tell you in the dark you must say in the daylight, and the things you hear in your private ear you must proclaim from the house-tops.” (Matthew 10:27 Phillips)

Praise God for Christian watchblogs which love the Body of Christ enough to inform and warn them of wayward ministers and ministries. They proclaim from “house-tops” in cyberspace as watchmen on the wall … often holding folks accountable to the greater church if church elders won’t. We’re in this thing together … it shouldn’t be too much to ask for church leaders to walk pure and holy lives. Be sure … we grieve for the good people at Tenth who have been impacted by this news … many who comment here regularly have endured confusion and disillusionment when their pastors failed (some have been victims of their abuse).

Confused,

the closest thing Tenth has to a woman in a leadership position is the other person named in the citation

Re-member Me: first hand knowledge

You have rejected the firsthand knowledge of the arresting officer.

Re-Member Me,

Since you responded to me, I will respond specifically to you… Is the Grace report out of line/got it wrong??

Ira: Goligher told the elders that he was “just having a picnic” – were they having a picnic naked? Was he blindfolded and eating her vagina by accident? “Oops, I thought that was my sandwich?” It is bizarre.

I dare say he was thinking of the Clinton defence “I did NOT have sex with that woman”! Probably something untoward happening under a blanket, but the charge was actual sexual misconduct (not the “mistaken appearance” of sexual misconduct) – and they pled guilty. I think the church should have asked him to demonstrate what was happening via a re-enactment, then get Elzey to do the same (without being able to witness what LG did) and see if they match – and really could appear guilty, but be innocent. What that could be?… the mind boggles!

Trigger warning for sadistic sexual/physical abuse from GRACE report:

While the leadership of Tenth has largely turned over since 2001, evidence indicates
Tenth’s consistent knowledge of Paul Jones’ actions through admissions by Jones which
fused corporal punishment with nudity, constituting common law articulations of the criminal act of sexual battery. While Tenth has acknowledged that they now understand
the behavior to constitute sexual battery, evidence was presented that Tenth’s first report to law enforcement about Paul Jones’ behavior happened 13 years after initial
knowledge.Further, despite consistent knowledge of the conduct, Tenth determined at
various stages that the conduct “did not press alarm bells” to the extent that Jones’
employment was retained for 16 years after allegations first surfaced.”

pp 101-102 of the GRACE report. (Then after it became clear to leadership that he needed to go, they let him resign after the Christmas music programs were over.)

Didn’t ring alarm bells! Didn’t make them sick at their stomach?

It appears that this is the same pattern & dynamics of spiritual/emotional/sexual/physical abuse that Jonathan Fletcher and John Smyth perpetrated. Those were also covered up for years.

For those who may be reading who were victims of Jones, there is a book written in England called Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse: Creating Healthy Christian Cultures. The foreword is by one of their victims. There is also quite a bit online about the abuse those men perpetrated. I’m sharing because it can be helpful to read the accounts of others who had similar experiences.

Quotidian: We are not to even “talk about the things that are done in darkness.”

It is incredibly upsetting to people in a congregation to find that those they trusted and looked to for leadership are not the men they thought them to be and they did not practice what they preached. It’s disorienting. Your upset is understandable.

But the responsibility for your upset is on the shoulders of the leaders who betrayed their calling, not on those exposing the leaders. Your leaders could have spared you by not committing the sins in the first place or by confessing their sins so there is no confusion. Since that did not happen, other leaders could have spared you by rebuking the sins deserving of public rebuke. They could have prioritized protecting the congregation from wolves. If any of these things had happened, you would not be in the place you are now. Hopefully, some of them will repent. I was once in a church where the sexual sin of the founding pastor was revealed when the victim sued years later. The elders immediately relieved him of duties. The congregation was very upset, but they were told the truth. The church leaders even issued a truthful press release. Some people actually joined the church after seeing the transparency. The leader confessed and was was restored to fellowship, but not to leadership. The vast majority of people were able to move forward with trust in the elders because of the forthright confession by the pastor who had sinned and the transparency of the elders.

Take a look at the context of the snippet you quoted: from Eph.5
11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret. 13 But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible…

There is an actual command to expose the deeds done in darkness by shining light on it. That is what law enforcement, GRACE, and watchdog sites do. It is what elders are charged to do. Otherwise, wolves will be given safe haven and able to continue exploiting sheep.

Not all sins are equal in weight. (John 19:11) Not all sins get the same treatment. Teachers and elders are judged more strictly. Certain sins of elders are to be rebuked publicly. (Tim 5:20, Gal. 2:11-13) To the extent that the session has not followed that command, they have also sinned. Certain sins of elders disqualify them from being elders.

I do understand it’s hard when all this is new news to you, but think of what it was like for the many victims at your church when they were first harmed by a leader, then failed by those who were supposed to protect them. I hope you will direct your compassion to the multiple victims at least as much as to the perpetrators. This might be easier if you read the actual GRACE report. Decades later, a different type of issue came to light and there was a lack of transparency which damaged the church.

Quotidian,

Eyewitness: Decades later, a different type of issue came to light and there was a lack of transparency which damaged the church.

Sorry. I didn’t finish the final thought. Decades later a different kind of issue came to light in the same church, and there was not the same level of transparency. That lack of transparency caused the same kind of confusion that your church is experiencing now.

Eyewitness,

Great comment! A concise presentation on the way this should have been handled. It’s hard to argue with Scripture (but some will). The sacred offices of pastor and elder are to be taken more seriously. If a church doesn’t hold church leaders accountable, the greater Body of Christ must step in to stop the work of the enemy and protect the precious name of Christ. Wolves in shepherd’s clothing must never be given safe haven.

Re-member me,

Re-Member Me,
You makes ALL good points. Saying bravo to all your posts on this LG matter.

To further clarify, though I think this was briefly addressed by another commenter above, the congregational vote to accept Goligher’s resignation is not any special effort on Tenth’s part to keep Goligher on or minimize the situation. They’re just following the procedures that are in place for the resignation of any minister in the PCA. I’m not sure of the official reason behind it other than as a formality since the congregation must meet to vote to call the minister. But personally I think it offers a sort of closure for the congregation to have the opportunity to publicly affirm the dissolution of the relationship. I hope it will be a healing step.

“When any minister shall tender the resignation of his pastoral charge
to his Presbytery, the Presbytery shall cite the church to appear by its
commissioners, to show cause why the Presbytery should or should not accept
the resignation. If the church fails to appear, or if its reasons for retaining its
pastor be deemed insufficient, his resignation shall be accepted and the
pastoral relation dissolved.
If any church desires to be relieved of its pastor, a similar procedure
shall be observed. But whether the minister or the church initiates proceedings
for a dissolution of the relation, there shall always be a meeting of the
congregation called and conducted in the same manner as the call of the pastor.
In any case, the minister must not physically leave the field until the Presbytery
or its commission empowered to handle uncontested requests for dissolution
has dissolved the relation.”

Broken Hearted: This is not abstract for me, this situation, the corruption of leadership of this church, the lies and abuse of these men is tearing my life and my family apart, and I am struggling to see any bright future or hope from God that it will be made right.

My heart goes out to you, Broken Hearted. Offering you cyber hugs if you want them.

R,

Dear R, I believe you. I empathise with you. What you and so many others have suffered due to the culture at Tenth is horrendous. The perps and their allies have not yet suffered as much as they deserve to suffer. May God bring true Justice and vindicate the oppressed!

When a church is a nest of vipers, dangers abound. So many people bleed. Many prideful people and perpetrators throng there, because it’s a honey pot for them. Many who want to remain in their cognitive dissonance thrash around and try to ‘do good’…but do more harm than good (to both themselves and to others).

I often think of Revelation 6:9-11 — the souls crying under the altar.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev+6%3A9-11&version=NMB

Here is a public letter to the church that has gone out to all members. It is from an elder I respect, the Clerk of Session.

“In recent weeks our church has received shocking and concerning news. The week before Thanksgiving, allegations were brought against Associate Minister Carroll Wynne in a report from GRACE, an organization hired by Tenth to investigate possible abuse in our church. Pastor Wynne has been put on administrative leave pending an investigation of the Philadelphia Presbytery. Then on December 1, Dr. Liam Goligher resigned as senior minister of Tenth. This was following reports of a citation of personal conduct dating back to 2014, which are a matter of public record, though unknown to the Session of Tenth until the last week of November.

This news has hit us very hard as a congregation, causing confusion, sadness, anger, fear, and a host of unanswered questions. What the future holds for us is uncertain, though our Lord’s plan for us is for our good and his glory. We are distressed but not destroyed. We hear reports of sin, and we consider our own lives and our account before God. We know that the hard providence we face is a blot on the witness of Tenth’s testimony to the holiness of Christ’s Kingdom and raises all kinds of challenges to our desire to care for one another and lift each other up as members of Christ’s suffering body.

When the people of God are distressed, they mourn, lament, and fast. Esther called on the Jews to fast when they were in great danger from their enemies (Esther 4:16). The prophet Joel declared that the Lord calls us to show our devotion and dependence by fasting (Joel 2:12-13). Nehemiah was moved to fast by reports of the low state of the holy city of Jerusalem (Nehemiah 1:3-4). Jesus instructs us to fast, but to do so sincerely without hypocrisy to be seen by others (Matthew 6:16).

The Session of Tenth Church voted unanimously to call for the congregation to fast on the days of Saturday, December 23; Wednesday, December 27; and Saturday, December 30. Each of these days will also end with gatherings at the church for worship: December 23 is still our early Lessons and Carols service at 7:30 PM. On December 27 and 30, there will be meetings at the church from 7-8 PM for the congregation to gather in corporate prayer. Please fast on these days—either partially or fully—and attend these meetings as you are able. If you have a medical reason to not fast, please follow your medical advice. Remember to stay hydrated when fasting.

Fasting is a way of embodying our devotion to God and affirm that his holiness and glory is far above our earthly and bodily appetites. We depend on his Word, and not on bread alone. When we feel hungry during the day, feel those promptings as promptings to pray. May the Lord richly bless us with his grace at this distressing time in the life of Tenth Church.”

R,

Thank you for making this available to TWW. As I read the elder’s letter, I was reminded of 2 Chronicles 7:14 outlining conditions for God’s healing to flow through His people. The good people at Tenth are broken-hearted, confused, disillusioned. The words from this verse provide them hope. The “THEN Will I” of God can be activated “IF My People.”

R: Fasting is a way of embodying our devotion to God and affirm that his holiness and glory is far above our earthly and bodily appetites.

God is telling me to have a sandwich….

Bob M,

“I’m not so sure what other ultimate authority you would use to make a decision as to whether or not someone is truly a child of God? Help me out here.”
++++++++++++++++++++

can’t fathom why anyone would have an interest or need to make such a decision.

R: Fasting is a way of embodying our devotion to God and affirm that his holiness and glory is far above our earthly and bodily appetites.

Maybe just expose and expel the leaders who are criminally living for their bodily desires. No amount of congregational fasting will erase the obvious or make it go away.

Strange how when the leadership is criminal, the constituency is told to buckle down.

The constituents aren’t the problem, unless they keep supporting criminal leaders.

Doesn’t take fasting to figure this out.

These bully leaders are always the same: Everyone else must submit, fast, forgive, be silent, confess, humble themselves, get on their knees, turn a blind eye, cover up, EXCEPT the criminal leader who IS the problem.

Eyewitness: corporal punishment with nudity

Shades of Ball and Smyth. Did they over-egg their “we’re not like that now” wishful thinking pudding when calling LG and the others listed? The antidote to ills is not to position oneself as less so (Godel’s theorem; equal and opposite reaction a.k.a material dialectic; “don’t mention the war” as John Cleese put it). The antidote is to introduce a totally fresh principle. Did LG lead Grudem and Virgo astray? Did Warnock his 2007 interviewer notice?

If I were a bit more cynical, I would hear this message from the unanimous Session: “I didn’t take your food. You chose to go hungry.”

R: Well those who are remaining in the session do not seem to be criminal. They are seemingly brokenhearted and praying for a healthy way forward. From what I can tell, the elders who remain are unpaid or low paid, just regular people trying to do the right thing. And, they are operating with a huge deficit in the church budget.

These are excellent observations. Many church folks are innocent and good hearted. Unfortunately this can lead them to trust others too much.

Jesus’ paradoxical words about being wise as serpents but innocent as doves (Matthew 10:16) might be worth pondering. Session members should demand answers and scrutinize all processes and safeguards. What was overlooked, swept under the rug, denied? Did corrupt parties hide misdeeds behind others’ fine reputations?

Simply saying “I didn’t know” or “I don’t do such things” will not suffice. The innocent elders should ask “Was I used?” and “How was I used?”

Bob M: I want to know if he is a genuine believer, don’t you? Oh yeah, you don’t believe that the church is a valid concept for people to be a part of.

I’m not elastigirl, but your comments caught my attention.

Here’s the thing. Nobody can truly know who is a genuine believer, or whether someone will later repent and be forgiven. You can’t take a verse and apply it to someone’s thoughts like litmus paper or a scarlet A.

What you can do is look at actions. Judge their actions and determine whether they deserve positions of power. That’s where some verses can come in.

Your focus on “genuine believers” can amount to mind reading and lead to endless recycling of people who do awful things: “I wasn’t truly a Christian when I robbed that bank, but now I am!” [fast forward five years] “I wasn’t truly a Christian when I abandoned my family, but buy my book about moving on!”

Bob M: The man in question is the lead pastor of a church. I want to know if he is a genuine believer, don’t you?

Not my call, but I will say, based on his actions, he shouldn’t lead anything.

Friend,

Such a shame your elbow got jogged (by the elbow joggers out in force). Where the fruits of spiritual gifts get sabotaged.

Kim,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Maybe it could be argued that the pastor is European, and in Europe they care less about affairs and cheating and they have less emotional impact. However here, the USA has Puritanical roots and sex scandals are hot gossip and not looked well upon. There could be snide remarks if it was an office, but a church pastor and deacon ? I attend 10th both in person and online, though am not a member, and feel insulted and misled. As for the deacon, the word for her in the US is home-wrecker, and maybe also career wrecker, family wrecker, retirement wrecker, etc. No doubt she confided how unhappy she was in her marriage, maybe it was infatuation that turned into lust. Anyway, she got her man, and ruined him. I am sorry for the families involved.

R: Well those who are remaining in the session do not seem to be criminal. They are seemingly brokenhearted and praying for a healthy way forward. From what I can tell, the elders who remain are unpaid or low paid, just regular people trying to do the right thing. And, they are operating with a huge deficit in the church budget.

Session may or may not be criminally liable, but they are absolutely morally culpable. My husband and I met with multiple elders over the past two years to express our concerns about Liam and about Session. We didn’t know all the details, but we knew something was very wrong. We begged for honesty and transparency. We knew things were being covered up. And we were committed to being there to minister and to help bring about change … right up to when we were kicked out and excommunicated. (It seems to happen to those of us who push too far.)

I would urge Tenth call for the removal of Session. Clean house and start fresh. Otherwise, nothing will change!!

Karen Walton: As a former member of Tenth, one who saw and experienced this abuse. My heart goes out to you. I would love to show you support and hear your story if that would ever be helpful.

Thank you for caring. I do know you as we have met before. I would like to talk to you if it can be arranged. I searched for you on social media and sent a message, I hope it was the right account.

R:

This is the only outlet for some of us. Yes, we’re bitter. And we’re angry. And we’re tired.

What about compassion and love for us? Hmm??

Yes, this! So tired!!

Karen Walton: Session may or may not be criminally liable, but they are absolutely morally culpable. My husband and I met with multiple elders over the past two years to express our concerns about Liam and about Session. We didn’t know all the details, but we knew something was very wrong. We begged for honesty and transparency. We knew things were being covered up. And we were committed to being there to minister and to help bring about change … right up to when we were kicked out and excommunicated. (It seems to happen to those of us who push too far.)

I would urge Tenth call for the removal of Session. Clean house and start fresh. Otherwise, nothing will change!!

Well said Karen Walton!

As well as removing all current Session, I also suggest that none of the men on that Session be allowed to preach for a long long time. And, if any of those men want to preach again, they need to have been demonstrating deep repentance and consistent reformation over a long time. That includes making full and detailed apologies and REPARATIONS to every person who has been hurt and betrayed by their leadership.

Barbara Roberts,

Men on session don’t preach. They’re laymen, technically

Confused: So its the Elders that need to go? They’d be the ones who covered things up and hid the truth from session?

The elders ARE the Session, according to the church website:

https://www.tenth.org/about/session

Re-member me: Men on session don’t preach. They’re laymen, technically

Ok. But isn’t it also try that all pastors are automatically deemed to be members of Session too?

That’s how it’s done in the Australian PCA. I would have thought it would be the same in the United States PCA. The two denominations consider each other very close in doctrines and practices.

https://www.tenth.org/about/session

“The Session is composed of Teaching Elders and Ruling Elders. All elders are each equally an elder and each gets one vote. Teaching Elders are ministers or pastors called to teach, preach, and administer the sacraments. Ruling Elders are undershepherds called to administer the government of the church and meet the spiritual needs of members in their parish.”

Confused: Since the sexual sin wasn’t known about then, may I enquire what was the concern about Liam? I had always thought he was well thought of at Tenth so this is all news to me.

You can go check out Karen’s comment in the other thread about Tenth. She did not say exact incidents she and husband complained of re: Goligher. Maybe she would talk about that more here? Karen …? We also don’t know what reason they gave her for excommunicating her & husband (and didn’t know she was excommunicated till seeing her comment some days ago). It it all very startling to hear of.

R: You can go check out Karen’s comment in the other thread about Tenth.

Here’s a link to that comment by Karen Walters at TWW’s other post about Tenth:
https://thewartburgwatch.com/2023/12/06/what-in-the-world-happened-to-pastor-liam-goligher-pastor-carroll-wynne-and-others-at-tenth-presbyterian-church/#comment-483531

Our concerns about Liam were two-fold:

1. When Liam first came to the church we really appreciated his sermons. They were tender and practical. Our children liked the fact that they could understand his preaching. As time passed, however, his sermons became increasingly intellectual and hard to understand. We came to feel that Liam was no longer preaching to our church but felt we were being subjected to the theological debates he had online. There was increasingly an us-vs-them mentality in which we heard other believers and churches being mocked or degraded for having different theological perspectives. This, obviously, is somewhat a matter of opinion and preference. But we came to feel we were no longer being fed, no longer being shown God’s love and tenderness. God became an intellectual exercise that most of us weren’t really capable of understanding.

In expressing these concerns to various elders we wondered aloud if there was some precipitating factor to account for this change. Was L burnt out, depressed, discouraged from all the difficulties Tenth was experiencing. What was going on?

Karen Walton,

Wow. I really value and appreciate your honesty, Karen. Thankyou for sharing such personal details. I hope others can benefit from your disclosure and not feel so alone, knowing they were not the only ones being treated this way.

“Christians” can be so cruel, and so lacking in wisdom and understanding. God loves us passionately, just as we are (sinners), and any church that doesn’t affirm that doesn’t know God. He made it abundantly clear that He chooses who to me merciful to, not us, we simply don’t get a say (Ex 33:19). And we’re not going to like the extent of his mercy (e.g. Jesus’ parable of the workers all being paid the same wage).

Your child needs support and nurturing. She has a difficult path ahead. However, I would caution against irreversible changes until she is older – there are horror stories of kids who now regret surgery and now see it was just a phase they were going through. (If the trans movement had been around when I was growing up, I would have been convinced I was supposed to be a boy. In my dreams I was always male. But when I got into my 20s I discovered benefits in being a woman, and began to love being one). Hormones really mess with your head. You are correct to stand with your child and help them.

Friend: The elders were afraid of the senior pastor—not good for a church. To whom does a PCA senior pastor answer, if not the Session?

The churches I have attended do not announce departures, unless the person is currently serving in a very prominent role (a pastor, music minister, maybe the top volunteer in the group of lay leaders).

The senior minister answers to the Presbytery. We were told that the Presbytery would not step in unless Session was united in its concerns, which it was not.

My friend was an employee and her husband was an elder on session. This the announcement.

Karen Walton: My husband and I have supported our child and refused to publicly condemn her.

Such evil irony that the Session somehow could not discipline unrepentant leaders known to be harming multiple people in Tenth’s congregation but could excommunicate someone trans and the parents who are supporting her, especially in a time in which trans people are so viciously targeted by a significant portion of the culture. Yet, the stomach-turning behavior of Paul Jones when reported didn’t so much as set off “alarm bells.” The double-standards blow the mind.

A devout elderly grandmother of a trans woman once said to me, “I am trying to understand.” This seems to me to be an appropriate position for a church to take. Many churches seem to reach “clarity” only on issues related to LGBTQ . Somehow they are unable to reach clarity on greed, partiality, status-seeking, arrogance, etc., let alone do what it takes to reach clarity on protecting the congregation from wolves in their midst.

I know how much allies mean to those being targeted by a wolf in the church, as you were to your friend. So often others back away and leave the ones being targeted alone because they don’t want to draw the ire of the abuser themselves. It is rare for people to speak up against wolves. I am sure you were a great comfort to your friend.

And since you weren’t willing to back away and brush it under the carpet, you gave the elders an outside nudge to do the right thing, and became a witness. They chose the wrong course of action and now they cannot pretend they didn’t know. Your witness is like a foot in the door that prevents them from fully closing the door and saying they didn’t know and wiggling out of accountability. Perhaps they will still manage to shut the door between themselves and repentance, but you will have done your part.

Confused: owever, I would caution against irreversible changes until she is older – there are horror stories of kids who now regret surgery and now see it was just a phase they were going through.

This is the opposite polarity of Trans Derangement Syndrome.
A form of Munchausen by Proxy that not only infects More-Woke-Than-Thou mothers, but For-the-Cause medical/psychiatric professionals and other Influencers.

Like the “Contagious Lesbianism” that hit some high schools around Y2K, Trans is the new Trendy and about all you can do is limit the damage while waiting for it to burn out.

Unfortunately, “the surgery” is a Point of No Return that once done cannot be undone.
There is a reason that in the UK you must be over 18/legal adult to Transition.

Julie: However here, the USA has Puritanical roots and sex scandals are hot gossip and not looked well upon.

You make a good point.
I’ve lived in Europe, and sex there is not that big of a deal.

Karen Walton:
Let me start with a full disclosure: My husband, myself, and one child were excommunicated after said child came out as transgender. My husband and I have supported our child and refused to publicly condemn her. Had we been parents grieving our wayward child, we would have been fine and our child would have been condemned alone. We have chosen to walk this road with our child and therefore received the same penalty she did. We were told that not only were we removed from Tenth Church and from the PCA, but that any church that welcomed and affirmed us was not a true church. We were therefore, according to them, no longer a part of the body of Christ.

Oh this is heartbreaking. Another commenter said something I resonated with. When young, I persisted in the thought I was supposed to be a boy. I had nothing in common with girls. Part-way into this, I had been abused by a relative, and that further made me want to escape the body and attractiveness I held. As I grew older, I began to settle into my female body. I now embrace myself as a strong woman. I am so glad I did not make any irreversible changes to my body. Being a young person is extremely confusing. Hormones are difficult. The changing body is such a challenge. And social pressures and abuse can make a person feel estranged from their born identiy and gender. AND there are so many hormones and stuff in the water now, so much poision in the food and air, who knows what it is doing to us. I know many people who are consider themselves trans. All of those I know have had some sort of trauma earlier on. There is a thing now happened – many teen girls I know who think they are trans or non-binary seem mostly to be doing it under social pressure. I am very wary of any permanent changes and have seen terrible things happen when people do… it especially worries me that any permanent changes or hormones be taken at a young age. But even those taking hormones in their 50s have had strokes, cancer, osteoperosis. I have been researching all this extensively. It is all difficult.

I cannot comprehend what it would be like to have a teen of my own come out saying they are trans. I cannot understand what that would feel like to go through with as a teen, either. I know I could not cut them off or force them to go through humiliation alone. I can understand why you would stand by your child / teen.

I don’t know if you know this, but one of Carroll Wynne’s main identified victims had top surgery and now identifies as trans.

“The elders were afraid of the senior pastor—not good for a church.”

Dear Friend,

If an elder was “afraid” of the senior pastor, who is the moderator of the session, I find it strange that he’d admit it. If an elder did admit it, then that would disqualify him to be an elder. After all, elders who are intimidated by their peers aren’t equipped to keep their vow to protect the flock. Accordingly, it’s safe to say that no *qualified* elder was afraid of Dr. Goligher.

I served on Tenth’s session alongside Liam. I never found Liam in his capacity of moderator of session to be anything but kind and deferring. If anything, I thought at times he might not have voiced his opinions strongly enough. In a word, I found Liam to be a gentle moderator, not the least bit contentious, and one who spoke his mind always in a soft voice.

Julie: 10th will find another really good Biblical scholar. It has happened in the past and will in the future, younger person, younger blood, better leader and maybe a better manager.

This hurting congregation should proceed slowly, and should seriously consider appointing an interim pastor to give the church a couple of years to adjust, talk and listen, and craft a plan for moving forward. Interim pastor is a time-honored office, and not an easy role.

At the church I attended as a kid, a very popular pastor left suddenly. An interim was NOT hired. A new pastor arrived within months. The congregation was still angry that the popular guy abandoned them. A group of rabble-rousers badgered the new pastor until he resigned. After he left, the congregation had trouble attracting anyone of goodwill and talent for ten or fifteen years.

Eyewitness: So often others back away and leave the ones being targeted alone because they don’t want to draw the ire of the abuser themselves.

Just like on the schoolyard.
Where the third parties suck up to the bully/abuser to get on his good side and not become his next target.

Ron DiGiacomo,

I didn’t suggest that the elders were afraid of Liam. What I would suggest is that because Liam was “kind and deferring” to them, they overlooked and minimized situations on which he was not kind and deferring to others. They were quick to believe the best of Liam (and frankly, each other). They were quick to accept shallow repentance and extend cheap grace, while those outside of the elder circle were hurt.

When my friend wanted to speak to an elder on Session about how Liam had been treating her, she was shut down. He told her he would not participate in “pastor bashing”. She was not believed.

I can assure you that there were elders who did not want Liam to be at Tenth any longer. But he would not retire and the Session could not force his resignation without the involvement of Presbytery.

I honestly doubt there were elders who were afraid of Liam. I think, on the contrary, they thought too highly of him. And any evidence or suggestions to the contrary was dismissed.

Headless Unicorn Guy:

When you’re in your early teens, most of your bingo balls are still floating in the draw tank. Takes a few years experience “learning to be an adult” before you can really sort things out.

The difference between the Y2K Lesbian Epidemic and today’s Trans Epidemic is that the former was entirely on the behavior level; the latterwhen “going all the way” has a pretty drastic Point of No Return. (Last moth YouTube’s Sacred Algorithm sent me a lot of “De-transitioning” videos from people who went all the way and then had second thoughts and de-transitioned. So the problem is out there.)

And like all the bogus claims of Tourettes and MPD/DID on TikTok, this Trend really doesn’t help the predicament of those who actually have Gender Dysphoria. The signal gets lost in all the Social Media noise.

I read studies that young people have an actual mental disconnect from teenage years until the age of 25 or so. So any major decisions they can’t return from, made in that time, they may really regret after that time. Especially if it has to do with something they were brainwashed into at a young age which involved hormones and body parts.

I have learned that there is real gender dysphoria but it is very rare and is usually in males. It is real. And it is something that needs discussing.

I think the whole “craze” is very scary because they tell kids that hormone blocking is reversible (so your organs can grow again after you get off it, and your body can go through puberty at a later age??.. it is actually pushed in schools and hidden from parents, etc etc. Do these kids realize that artificial testosterone is actually a high with many negative long-term affects, and that estrogen is cancer-causing, and that hormones and surgeries cause life-long discomfort, life-long sterility, dependence on pills, severe scarring, even dependence on invasive items daily placed into the body? No, of course not. Most are just trying to feel ok in their strangely changing bodies, and feel ok socially in their peer groups, and do what the new “in” thing is to do.

Interesting books I have read on the subject:

Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters – respectful and mindblowing book full of what appeared to my scientific brain to be hard facts and good questions. She brings up that, until recently, gender dysphoria was extremely rare, and mostly from males.

As Nature Made Him: The Boy Who Was Raised as a Girl – about the boy who was used and abused by John Money to legitimize transitioning and permanently removing organs of young children.

Karen Walton:
Ron DiGiacomo,
I didn’t suggest that the elders were afraid of Liam. What I would suggest is that because Liam was “kind and deferring” to them, they overlooked and minimized situations on which he was not kind and deferring to others.

That also suggests a Sociopath Manipulator “grooming” his elders as Inner-Ring allies.
As the Rabbit from Tarsus wrote, Sociopaths and Manipulators are masters of camouflaging what they really are.

They were quick to believe the best of Liam (and frankly, each other). They were quick to accept shallow repentance and extend cheap grace, while those outside of the elder circle were hurt.

They were The Inner Ring, not a bunch of pew-warming Nobodies.
Like Reichsminister Speer, they “arranged their minds” to see Nothing Wrong with the System that bestowed Elder rank upon them.

I honestly doubt there were elders who were afraid of Liam. I think, on the contrary, they thought too highly of him. And any evidence or suggestions to the contrary was dismissed.

Again, just like a Sociopath Manipulator (in the words of the Rabbi from Tarsus) appearing as an Angel of Light.

elastigirl:
Bob M,

“The man in question is the lead pastor of a church. I want to know if he is a genuine believer, don’t you? Oh yeah, you don’t believe that the church is a valid concept for people to be a part of”
+++++++++++++++++

oodles of people in and out of the church institution are believers.

if “genuine believer” means “a believey believer”, well, who can say.

believers see things in so many different ways.all of which can be cobbled together as biblical in one way or another.makes ‘biblical’ the silliest word around.

I think belief in God has different qualities and contours. it’s unreasonable & obnoxious to expect everyone’s belief to be uniform.we can agree on a few basic things and that’s enough.

hall monitors are a drag.belief hall monitors are insuffferable.

what matters most is one’s actions, integrity, a heart of kindness & compassion,…(being plain-spoken is not incompatible)

In other words, you do not believe that the Bible is a reliable Authority, and our Ultimate Authority on earth.

Karen Walton,

Dear Karen,

I realize you were not trying to suggest that elders were scared of Liam. I was responding to the person who is going by the name “Friend”. Friend seems to have misinterpreted you as suggesting elders were afraid of Liam. My previous post – the one you responded to – quoted “Friend” directly. Also, Friend’s quote that I responded to is also included in one of your responses to Friend. Your post to Friend isn’t formatted well and it looks as though you were saying it, but I knew you weren’t. Friend said it and I was merely responding to that person.

Best wishes, Ron

Karen Walton: My husband, myself, and one child were excommunicated

Hi Karen, I’d like to ask a bit more about this. Was it an informal or a formal excommunication?

As I understanding it, formal excommunication would entail a record being made in the Session minutes that the Session formally voted to excommunicate the persons named and Session’s reasons for that decision.

So I’m asking, did Tenth formally excommunicate you? Or did they just make it so unpleasant for you to keep attending that you and your family decided to leave?

Ron DiGiacomo: I’ve known Liam ten plus years and I have no place in my imagination for such assertions. I went through session meetings with Liam during Covid. If ever there was a time for unrestrained passion, it was then. Liam was angelic. He led with grace, wisdom and compassion. He had convictions that never were imposed upon session. He was an exemplary moderator and a shepherd of shepherds through those most tumultuous times.

Hi Ron, the thing is, Liam was leading a double life. The proof that he was leading a double life is in those court dockets. To the Session, he may have been presenting as an angelic leader and an exemplary moderator and shepherd of shepherds. But he was at the same time concealing his secret sin and the existence of those court dockets and the fact that he had PLED GUILTY to the citation.

Therefore, he was NOT an angelic leader. He was a two-faced liar.

Please Ron, I beg you, face reality! Your cognitive dissonance seems to be causing your to not fully face the reality that Liam was a liar.

Since Liam has been proved to be a liar, and his pattern of conduct shows that he had been lying for years, I suggest that you need to seriously consider the testimonies given in this comments thread by people who have attended Tenth and who experienced other sides of Liam.

Dear Barbara,

I’ll try to address your response with precision. I’d only ask that precision not be misconstrued as uncaring or in any way insensitive. These are indeed serious matters. I get that.

“Hi Ron, the thing is, Liam was leading a double life. The proof that he was leading a double life is in those court dockets.”

The court dockets don’t suggest a pattern of life but a one time incident. To derive a pattern of life from a single citation entails a leap of reason. The unfavorable conclusion would exceed the scope of the single premise. The assumptions one must make to arrive at such condemnation are extraordinary and beyond our finitude.

1. Do you know whether Liam was aware of the definition of the citation code? Whenever I’ve paid a ticket, I never tried to decipher the code before mailing in the check.

2. The term “sexual activity” is not capitalized in section 19, so there is no clear definition of the term. Moreover, there are two more severe citations that could have been issued within the same general category of transgression, but neither code was cited. Accordingly, without definitions and given the other two possible citations that were not issued, the transgression could be as minimal as kissing. Don’t get me wrong. That would be egregious sin and worthy of him being deposed from office. I cannot stress that enough. My only point, however, is that what is being promulgated in cyber-land is prolonged adultery of an explicit nature; yet those conclusions, even if true, are not warranted by the public facts.

“To the Session, he may have been presenting as an angelic leader and an exemplary moderator and shepherd of shepherds. But he was at the same time concealing his secret sin and the existence of those court dockets and the fact that he had PLED GUILTY to the citation.”

Consider a scenario in which Liam engaged in no impropriety. Surely you can imagine such a hypothetical. In that context, it is advisable for all who will stand before Christ to allow presbytery to conduct its inquiry. Even if you think presbytery is cowardly, self-preservation alone will wall in that body to render righteous judgement.

“Therefore, he was NOT an angelic leader. He was a two-faced liar.”

With all due respect, I am unable to distinguish your conclusion from your argument to that conclusion.

“Please Ron, I beg you, face reality! Your cognitive dissonance seems to be causing your to not fully face the reality that Liam was a liar.”

I’m sorry to have disappointed you, Barbara. As best as I can discern, I believe I am trying to extend the judgment of charity by not going beyond my creaturely limitations. Now then, what if the Ranger came forth and stated that he was trying to stick it to Liam without cause? Is that possible? If it’s possible, then given my lack of omniscience I believe I’m accountable to God to withhold judgment given that distinct possibility. That’s where we apparently disagree. Indeed, your conclusion could be correct, but life before Christ isn’t a multiple guess test. It’s more of an essay. God will exam our work, not just our bottom line answers. If one is correct while having judged hastily, he / she will be judged in kind.

“Since Liam has been proved to be a liar, and his pattern of conduct shows that he had been lying for years, I suggest that you need to seriously consider the testimonies given in this comments thread by people who have attended Tenth and who experienced other sides of Liam.”

You’ve already judged the matter. So, there’s no more I should say other than may God have mercy. I pray that the imprecatory psalms you’ve been praying aren’t returned unto you.

Grace and peace,

Ron

Friend,

Dear Friend,

You’ve misread Karen and now me. I never suggested a buffer between sheep and shepherd. Nor did Karen imply certain elders were afraid of the pastor.

Blessings,

Ron

Barbara Roberts,

I would be happy to let you see the letters we received and decide for yourself. You can message me on Facebook or Dee has my email. If neither of those options work, let me know what would work better.

What I can say right here is that if the record states that we “withdrew our membership” or were “members in good standing” then the record is deceitful. If by some technicality it could be argued that it was true, it certainly gives a false impression of what we experienced. We feel excommunicated, condemned, unwelcome, rejected, and humiliated. Our children feel the same even though they were not officially involved in the proceedings.

As Ron demonstrates, these men are adept at manipulating technicalities and people have suffered. My family has suffered.

Ron DiGiacomo,

Ron,

When you make comments like “Liam was angelic” or “a shepherd of shepherds” that may be true in your experience. I don’t doubt it. But that was not the experience of all people. Somebody who is abusive to one person is not necessarily so to everybody. In fact, part of the power of some abusers is their ability to manipulate people with their charm. To appear above reproach.

When you say that Liam and Session were good, kind, and honorable men in response to me telling you they gravely wounded me and my family, you diminish me. You suggest I am a liar or stupidly mistaken.

What you shared was your experience. What I shared was mine. Your experience does not supercede or negate mine. We were at Tenth for 17 years. We had many wonderful experiences. We considered many of the elders to be friends. That is why their cruelty toward us hurt so badly.

In spite of knowing and trusting us for years, in spite of our faithful service, in spite of months of knowing we were carrying a heart wrenching burden, not one elder asked to hear our story, not one sat with us, not one prayed with us. (Except Liam, at our request.) We were utterly abandoned by the men who called themselves shepherds. And then we were treated harshly, rejected, and removed.

That is my experience. That you,as a fellow elder, did not experience this does not change my anything.

Karen Walton,

It is deeply wounding to be punished for faithfully being light in the church. I’m so very sorry.

“Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.“

Karen Walton,

”When you say that Liam and Session were good, kind, and honorable men in response to me telling you they gravely wounded me and my family, you diminish me. You suggest I am a liar or stupidly mistaken.”

Dear Karen,

I would never want to hurt you in any of those ways. I hope it will be of some comfort know that I never once made a comment about session as an organic whole or as a multiplicity of particular elders. So, please don’t think I am trying to prove you wrong about session.

My comments as they related to demeanor were limited strictly to Liam’s behavior at session meetings. And those comments were intended to give someone else occasion to pause as they were wrongly inferring from you that certain men were afraid of Liam due to his alleged volatility. Accordingly, you needn’t construe my comments about Liam as rebutting your testimony about session or other unnamed elders.

Yet regarding my comments as they relate to Liam, as Lowlandseer kindly pointed out, they are not incompatible with any of the allegations you’ve made, and they certainly don’t “suggest [you are] a liar or stupidly mistaken.”

“What you shared was your experience.”

Yes, I shared my first hand experience as they relate to a single person in the defined context of session meetings. I did not relay secondhand hearsay about anyone in particular or an organic body of elders.

“What I shared was mine.”

You tried to console one commenter who decried “the corruption…the lies and abuse of these men….” This particular lament was not toward Liam or any other individual but against “these men”. Your response was that you “saw and experienced this abuse.”

Session was at times comprised of as many as twenty elders. But even when it was comprised of nearly half that number, “these men” do not single out any particular man, let alone the senior minister. All that is to say, your comment wasn’t directed toward Liam, so, again, any favorable impression I have shared about Liam need not be taken as my trying to “supersede or negate” your impressions either of session or of Liam. In fact, most of the first hand experiences you’ve relayed pertained to elders other than Liam. And, much of what you’ve said about Liam pertains to suspicion or the alleged comments you heard from other elders about Liam and your dear friend. For instance: After saying you “saw L berate and accuse..,” you later stated you were “not personally present in any of these conversations, but out of concern for my friend I spoke to several elders about the things I had heard. These elders agreed that Liam could be volatile and was easily angered. They mentioned trying to keep him out of personal issues as he tended to escalate matters.”

Even if you personally witnessed Liam act in ways unbecoming of a minister. I would only caution anyone against spreading such a report whether it’s first hand or not.

“We were at Tenth for 17 years. We had many wonderful experiences. We considered many of the elders to be friends. That is why their cruelty toward us hurt so badly.”

I am sincerely sorry for the pain you’ve undergone. Truly, I am. I prayed for you and your family at various times during a time in which I sensed you were struggling. I wasn’t your assigned elder so I couldn’t impose myself. At times I tried to make a connection with you and your husband through my joy of caring for your dear youngest in nursery during some evening services. Perhaps I should have tried harder than just lingering around your pew with nobody to talk to after evening services.

“In spite of knowing and trusting us for years, in spite of our faithful service, in spite of months of knowing we were carrying a heart wrenching burden, not one elder asked to hear our story, not one sat with us, not one prayed with us. (Except Liam, at our request.) We were utterly abandoned by the men who called themselves shepherds. And then we were treated harshly, rejected, and removed….That is my experience. That you,as a fellow elder, did not experience this does not change my anything.”

Karen, I am unable to get into my experiences (or the experiences of my wife and daughters) that were the impetus for my stepping down from session and soon after leaving Tenth, other than to say, I am not a stranger to pain and suffering. My only point in this response is in no way have I sought to discredit your personal testimony anymore than you’ve tried to discredit mine.

If you and Dave would like to talk, I’d count it a joy.

Blessings,

Ron

Karen Walton: The elders consider their experience to be reality and other people’s experiences are compared to and measured by that reality.

Two Plus Two Equals Five, Comrade.

Ron DiGiacomo: Even if you personally witnessed Liam act in ways unbecoming of a minister. I would only caution anyone against spreading such a report whether it’s first hand or not.

Why should anyone be cautioned against sharing a first hand report which uncovers abuses of power or position? Why should anyone be hindered from seeking clarity on a concern they feel based on the first hand report of someone else?

Honesty and transparency over suppression and silencing.

Dear Sister Karen,

For starters, I would like to say that I am sorry that you are in pain over how you have been treated. And for the struggles your family is facing. Ron and I will most certainly be praying for you all and the the matters you are burdened by.

I do want to just jump in here as a woman and sister in Christ, and since your concern is being communicated publicly, I would like to publicly express that regardless of whether your assertions are true (that is not what is in question), it is a violation of the ninth commandment to pass on a bad report in any way other than God prescribes. This is what is personally so disheartening to me about what is going on with our former pastor. The untold liberties people have taken in expressing their opinions about Liam (even if they are first hand experiences) without following the biblical process God has laid out for us. We so often make dealing with one another far more difficult than it needs to be. God makes all of this very simple for us. We have only two options: We all called to cover a multitude of sins, or we follow Matthew 18. Neither of those options give us liberty to express a bad report to anyone other than the accused, a witness, and then the church (or when we must confidently solicit help from a godly person in seeking to discern how to handle something.).

Ron and I are not so naive as to believe anyone is not capable of the most egregious of sins for we know our own hearts and that apart from God’s grace we are all desperately wicked. His point, and now mine, is that we ought to strive to be a part of the solution by confronting our brothers and sisters in Christ in the ways that God ordains and not in such public ways, that in all do respect, I believe violate the 9th commandment.

Karen, might I urge you as a woman, that God has given you a husband to protect you. I would urge you to submit to your husband on this front and if he wants to make this a public matter than let him lead your family on this front. But for you to be coming out publicly against ministers of the gospel, is not something that I believe is becoming of a Christian woman. If your husband is not inclined to address this matter on your behalf, than I encourage you to “leave it to God who judges justly.”

Praying for you all and hoping we will all do our part to end the horrible sin of spreading a bad report to those who are in no way a part of the solution. To your last question, the reason we are not to spread a bad report, is because God forbids us from doing so apart from the courts of the church. See Westminster Larger Catechism on the 9th Commandment below.

If you do desire to talk about anything, I am here for you. I believe you have my phone number.

With heart felt concern for you and your family,

Lisa DiGiacomo

Q. 143. Which is the ninth commandment?
A. The ninth commandment is, Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Q. 144. What are the duties required in the ninth commandment?
A. The duties required in the ninth commandment are, the preserving and promoting of truth between man and man, and the good name of our neighbor, as well as our own; appearing and standing for the truth; and from the heart, sincerely, freely, clearly, and fully, speaking the truth, and only the truth, in matters of judgment and justice, and in all other things whatsoever; a charitable esteem of our neighbors; loving, desiring, and rejoicing in their good name; sorrowing for and covering of their infirmities; freely acknowledging of their gifts and graces, defending their innocency; a ready receiving of a good report, and unwillingness to admit of an evil report, concerning them; discouraging talebearers, flatterers, and slanderers; love and care of our own good name, and defending it when need requireth; keeping of lawful promises; studying and practicing of whatsoever things are true, honest, lovely, and of good report.

Q. 145. What are the sins forbidden in the ninth commandment?
A. The sins forbidden in the ninth commandment are, all prejudicing the truth, and the good name of our neighbors, as well as our own, especially in public judicature; giving false evidence, suborning false witnesses, wittingly appearing and pleading for an evil cause, outfacing and overbearing the truth; passing unjust sentence, calling evil good, and good evil; rewarding the wicked according to the work of the righteous, and the righteous according to the work of the wicked; forgery, concealing the truth, undue silence in a just cause, and holding our peace when iniquity calleth for either a reproof from ourselves, or complaint to others; speaking the truth unseasonably, or maliciously to a wrong end, or perverting it to a wrong meaning, or in doubtful or equivocal expressions, to the prejudice of the truth or justice; speaking untruth, lying, slandering, backbiting, detracting, talebearing, whispering, scoffing, reviling, rash, harsh, and partial censuring; misconstructing intentions, words, and actions; flattering, vainglorious boasting, thinking or speaking too highly or too meanly of ourselves or others; denying the gifts and graces of God; aggravating smaller faults; hiding, excusing, or extenuating of sins, when called to a free confession; unnecessary discovering of infirmities; raising false rumors, receiving and countenancing evil reports, and stopping our ears against just defense; evil suspicion; envying or grieving at the deserved credit of any; endeavoring or desiring to impair it, rejoicing in their disgrace and infamy; scornful contempt, fond admiration; breach of lawful promises; neglecting such things as are of good report, and practicing, or not avoiding ourselves, or not hindering what we can in others, such things as procure an ill name.

Karen Walton,

You have not monopolized the discussion; rather, you have shared an example of the treatment a family can experience when church leaders disapprove of one member. I hope that this discussion has helped you. It has certainly helped me to learn more about the dynamics in some churches.

Ron DiGiacomo,

I found a name identical to yours in something called the Aquila Report. Here are some quotations in which the author heaps scorn on whole denominations and says some things about church members.

Perhaps the author should have given this testimony in the secret confines of a church court.

“For most congregants, what seems to matter most is what I’ve recently coined the 3 C’s: Community. Comfort. Convenience. When such creaturely concerns of congregants take precedent over another 3 C’s (a confessional cause for Christ), it’s just a matter of time until the proverbial frog-congregant cooks in the kettle.

“Did the PCUSA become the harlot she now is without first flirting with doctrinal infidelity? Again, how do churches become apostate? What’s their attitude along the way? How are our NAPARC churches doing in 2022? What’s the responsibility of congregants?”

https://theaquilareport.com/seeds-of-apostasy-and-congregant-responsibility/

Lisa DiGiacomo: God has given you a husband to protect you.

The young widows in three generations of my family would like a word.

dee: You give such a pat answer without considering another point of view.

So Spiritual and Godly all her brains have leaked out.
Leaving only the CHRISTIAN Virtue Signalling.

dee: Are you serious? You sure have these lines down pat.

doubleplusduckspeak.
An MP3 playback loop of Christianese.
I’d be checking to see if she’s an AI bot.

Headless Unicorn Guy,

The Aquila Report makes for an interesting read. Be sure to wear your Bircherite secret decoder ring. 😉

Does anyone in his previous zigzagging carry clues also? He is moderately staid and moderately academic, not bad things as such. Why do ordinary congregants feel the need to put his type between their ghastly local hierarchs and God? Are they too used to not being consulted on the very constitution of their system? Doctrines = church order, to which even God has been bound in heaven.

Friend,

I found what he said quite refreshing in its honesty. He wasn’t trashing denominations, he was pointing out to church members the dangers of a ministry by men, be they pastors or elders, who don’t adhere to the confessional standards they vowed to affirm and who may thereby lead the flock astray.
And if you’re interested in a more complete picture of what this means, pop over to Monergism and read more of his essays. They’re very good.

Ron DiGiacomo:

2. The term “sexual activity” is not capitalized in section 19, so there is no clear definition of the term. Moreover, there are two more severe citations that could have been issued within the same general category of transgression, but neither code was cited. Accordingly, without definitions and given the other two possible citations that were not issued, the transgression could be as minimal as kissing. Don’t get me wrong. That would be egregious sin and worthy of him being deposed from office. I cannot stress that enough. My only point, however, is that what is being promulgated in cyber-land is prolonged adultery of an explicit nature; yet those conclusions, even if true, are not warranted by the public facts.

I have repeatedly posted proof that 98-19-B is indeed sexual activity.

This link https://cryptpad.fr/drive/#/2/drive/view/TQTMAjAY9YZP9AcBCTj2MEN3WsYkwKBjo3kXHWRwoaM/ allows you to view all the court dockets and the Lancaster County Ordinance pertaining to this case.

Here is 98 in full text and signed by officials: https://cryptpad.fr/file/#/3/file/a4a6a019fcc67d82340c6ffda8d954463774d337029ec60f/

Karen Walton:
Barbara Roberts,

I would be happy to let you see the letters we received and decide for yourself. You can message me on Facebook or Dee has my email. If neither of those options work, let me know what would work better.

What I can say right here is that if the record states that we “withdrew our membership” or were “members in good standing” then the record is deceitful. If by some technicality it could be argued that it was true, it certainly gives a false impression of what we experienced. We feel excommunicated, condemned, unwelcome, rejected, and humiliated. Our children feel the same even though they were not officially involved in the proceedings.

As Ron demonstrates, these men are adept at manipulating technicalities and people have suffered. My family has suffered.

dee and Barbara Roberts/strong>, would you please be in touch with Karen Walton about viewing the two letters from the Tenth Session? I’d like to know if they appear to be letters of excommunication.

Godith,

Bruce Chambers did a complete security program for the church in 2017. He asked that the pastors, teachers, elders etc all go through the police background check that one must pass to be a Little League or soccer coach. THEY WOULD NOT DO IT ! They knew something.

charles lyddane:
Godith,

Bruce Chambers did a complete security program for the church in 2017. He asked that the pastors, teachers, elders etc all go through the police background check that one must pass to be a Little League or soccer coach. THEY WOULD NOT DO IT ! They knew something.

WHAT!!!! Was he wanting them to just do a one-time or yearly check? Did he tell you this directly?

Ron DiGiacomo: The court dockets don’t suggest a pattern of life but a one time incident. To derive a pattern of life from a single citation entails a leap of reason. The unfavorable conclusion would exceed the scope of the single premise. The assumptions one must make to arrive at such condemnation are extraordinary and beyond our finitude.

1. Do you know whether Liam was aware of the definition of the citation code? Whenever I’ve paid a ticket, I never tried to decipher the code before mailing in the check.

2. The term “sexual activity” is not capitalized in section 19, so there is no clear definition of the term. Moreover, there are two more severe citations that could have been issued within the same general category of transgression, but neither code was cited. Accordingly, without definitions and given the other two possible citations that were not issued, the transgression could be as minimal as kissing. Don’t get me wrong. That would be egregious sin and worthy of him being deposed from office. I cannot stress that enough. My only point, however, is that what is being promulgated in cyber-land is prolonged adultery of an explicit nature; yet those conclusions, even if true, are not warranted by the public facts.

“To the Session, he may have been presenting as an angelic leader and an exemplary moderator and shepherd of shepherds. But he was at the same time concealing his secret sin and the existence of those court dockets and the fact that he had PLED GUILTY to the citation.”

Consider a scenario in which Liam engaged in no impropriety. Surely you can imagine such a hypothetical. In that context, it is advisable for all who will stand before Christ to allow presbytery to conduct its inquiry. Even if you think presbytery is cowardly, self-preservation alone will wall in that body to render righteous judgement.

“Therefore, he was NOT an angelic leader. He was a two-faced liar.”

With all due respect, I am unable to distinguish your conclusion from your argument to that conclusion.

Hi Ron,
I agree that the court dockets show a single incident.

However,for nearly ten years Liam Goligher concealed from Session and the Tenth Congregation the fact that he had been cited and pled guilty for that incident. This is why I say he has displayed a pattern of conduct. He has shown a pattern of conduct of deceit.

Now, if a lay Christian did what Goligher did (concealing from his fellow congregants that he had done a sexual sin, such concealment would not necessarily be a seriously sinful pattern of conduct. But for a Senior Pastor to conceal from the congregation that he had done a sexual sin DOES constitute a seriously sinful pattern of conduct.

Even if the sexual sin of the Senior Minister was only one incident of kissing a woman who was not his wife (as you suggested it might have been), his concealment is serious conduct, and it’s a pattern because he kept it up for so long. Liam has been a two-faced liar by concealing this matter from Tenth for so long. Hence, my logic stands.

I have no evidence or proof that Liam Goligher was, or was not, doing sexually illicit things with Susan Elzey on other days, or months or years. I am not speculating on that matter, such speculation is pretty fruitless. I resent you trying to criticise me by roping me in with others in cyberland who may have been saying that Goligher and Elzey were committing adultery for years.

Nothing I have said shows that I have already made up my mind about whether Goligher was guilty of more sexual sins than that one event listed in the citation.

If you study the comments threads on TWW’s two posts about Goligher, you will see that a commenter has said that she (or he? I can’t remember who the commenter was) contacted the officer who made the citation, and that officer is the chief officer in that department of the Parks Authority, and the officer is still working there, but he can’t recall the incident and all the paperwork relating to that citation will have been destroyed by now, since it was so long ago.

If the Parks Authority paperwork relating to that citation no longer exists, then that will make the job of the Presbytery harder.

Nothing I have said will impede the Presbytery in doing its investigation. In fact, the details I have given here may HELP the Presbytery do its investigation. I hope the Presbytery investigation will lead to a right and godly conclusion about Liam Goligher’s conduct and what, if anything, Tenth and the Presbytery need to do about Goligher.

You asked me to consider a scenario in which Liam engaged in no impropriety. I think that’s rather silly of you to suggest that, given that (a) Liam pled guilty and paid the fine; (b) the citation was given under Section 19:B — “engage in any form of sexual behavior”; (c) Liam resigned very soon after the court dockets were drawn to the attention of evangelical Christians worldwide; and (d) the officer who issued the citation is still working in that department and can be contacted.

The Lancaster County Ordinance under which Goligher and Elzey were cited has been slightly revised since 2014. The following link to crytpad.fr allows you to view all the court dockets and the Lancaster County Ordinance pertaining to their citations. https://cryptpad.fr/drive/#/2/drive/view/TQTMAjAY9YZP9AcBCTj2MEN3WsYkwKBjo3kXHWRwoaM/.

Therefore, I will not waste my mental energy considering a scenario in which Liam engaged in no impropriety.

You asked: “Do you know whether Liam was aware of the definition of the citation code?”

No, I don’t know whether Liam was aware of the definition of the citation code. But I do know that both Liam and Susan Elzey were cited for the same offence on the same day, and both pled guilty on the same day. Therefore, it’s more than reasonable to think that Liam and Susan both knew that the other was cited for the same offence and pled guilty for the same offence. They were doing the same offence on the same day. It’s not like they were both booked for speeding, and paid their fine without checking the exact meaning of the legal code for which they were cited.

You said, “Whenever I’ve paid a ticket, I never tried to decipher the code before mailing in the check.” I can understand that, but you are presumably referring to things like speeding or parking tickets, not some offence in a public park.

Ron, I suggest that rather than spending your time and energy trying to push back against commenters here, you spend your time and energy addressing the seriously wicked conduct of people like Carroll Wynne, which the GRACE report exposed. In your role as an elder at Tenth, the most important thing is to be protecting the children, the young people and the vulnerable pew-sitters in your congregation. Would you not agree?

Barbara Roberts: You asked: “Do you know whether Liam was aware of the definition of the citation code?”

No, I don’t know whether Liam was aware of the definition of the citation code.

Anyone charged with a crime needs and deserves competent legal representation. Criminal defense attorneys do work in Pennsylvania.

The attorney’s job is to explain the charges.

Did these folks get lawyers? If so, then they did understand the charges and the implications of pleading guilty. A decent criminal attorney should also have tried to get the charge reduced, or dropped and later expunged.

If the senior pastor did not get a lawyer, he placed himself at risk that the criminal conviction would later be discovered. This in turn placed the congregation at risk of turmoil.

Ignorance of the charge is no excuse.

To imply that this was something like “we kissed once, got arrested, and accidentally pleaded guilty to X-rated behavior” strikes me as preposterous.

I’m not a lawyer. I’ve been around, and I have seen people undergo background checks.

Lisa DiGiacomo: I do want to just jump in here as a woman and sister in Christ, and since your concern is being communicated publicly, I would like to publicly express that regardless of whether your assertions are true (that is not what is in question), it is a violation of the ninth commandment to pass on a bad report in any way other than God prescribes. This is what is personally so disheartening to me about what is going on with our former pastor. The untold liberties people have taken in expressing their opinions about Liam (even if they are first hand experiences) without following the biblical process God has laid out for us. We so often make dealing with one another far more difficult than it needs to be. God makes all of this very simple for us. We have only two options: We all called to cover a multitude of sins, or we follow Matthew 18. Neither of those options give us liberty to express a bad report to anyone other than the accused, a witness, and then the church (or when we must confidently solicit help from a godly person in seeking to discern how to handle something.).

… His point, and now mine, is that we ought to strive to be a part of the solution by confronting our brothers and sisters in Christ in the ways that God ordains and not in such public ways, that in all do respect, I believe violate the 9th commandment.

….But for you to be coming out publicly against ministers of the gospel, is not something that I believe is becoming of a Christian woman. If your husband is not inclined to address this matter on your behalf, than I encourage you to “leave it to God who judges justly.”

Praying for you all and hoping we will all do our part to end the horrible sin of spreading a bad report to those who are in no way a part of the solution. To your last question, the reason we are not to spread a bad report, is because God forbids us from doing so apart from the courts of the church. See Westminster Larger Catechism on the 9th Commandment below.

.

Lisa,
Karen clearly believes that she has biblical warrant for speaking out publicly.

You disagree and state your standards for your disagreement which appear to be that you believe that God made things simple by giving us only two options.

I wonder, though, what in those two options (which is what you believe is allowed) gave you the authority to circumvent Matt 18 yourself rather than going to Karen privately. Yes, you have first hand knowledge of her public words, but you disapprove of expressing opinions based even on first-hand knowledge publicly. The justification that you give is that she expressed herself publicly, which you say is wrong, but then you express yourself publicly to say that she is wrong to express herself publicly. This is how it looks to someone outside that particular connections.

I believe the full counsel of Scripture actually supports Karen’s speaking out and could cite multiple other ways that God gives for exposing sin, particularly the sin of a leader. However, I’m guessing that you might be more open to to considering those other Scriptures, if expounded by someone whose credentials you respect. If so, you may want to read the book Bully Pulpit, by Michael J. Kruger, who is president of Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte. He is a respected scholar of the New Testament and also is an expert on the canon. As president of a Reformed Seminary, he has a heart for pastors and it’s been his job to give a great deal of thought and study to the subject.

Barbara Roberts: Hi Ron,
I agree that the court dockets show a single incident.

… The Lancaster County Ordinance under which Goligher and Elzey were cited has been slightly revised since 2014. The following link to crytpad.fr allows you to view all the court dockets and the Lancaster County Ordinance pertaining to their citations. https://cryptpad.fr/drive/#/2/drive/view/TQTMAjAY9YZP9AcBCTj2MEN3WsYkwKBjo3kXHWRwoaM/.

… I do know that both Liam and Susan Elzey were cited for the same offence on the same day, and both pled guilty on the same day. Therefore, it’s more than reasonable to think that Liam and Susan both knew that the other was cited for the same offence and pled guilty for the same offence. They were doing the same offence on the same day. It’s not like they were both booked for speeding, and paid their fine without checking the exact meaning of the legal code for which they were cited.

– For the sake of clarity, Goligher and Elzey were cited separately but under the same exact Incident number. They were the only two involved in that Incident. The sexual act was clearly the two of them together.

– The Charge was a violation of Lancaster County Parks Ordinance 98-19 §§ B (i.e. 19 Personal Conduct, B “No person shall engage in any form of sexual activity.”).

– The legal definition of sexual activity, from Law Insider:
Sexual activity means sexual conduct or sexual contact, or both.
Sexual activity means the oral, anal, or vaginal penetration by, or union with, the sexual organ of another or the anal or vaginal penetration of another by any other object; however, sexual activity does not include an act done for a bona fide medical purpose.
Sexual activity means an activity that a reasonable person would, in all the circumstances but regardless of any person’s purpose, consider to be sexual.

Barbara Roberts: Ron … In your role as an elder at Tenth, the most important thing is to be protecting the children, the young people and the vulnerable pew-sitters in your congregation. Would you not agree?

It appears that Ron, by his own admission, left Tenth and eldership years ago. A commenter here asked if he was the one who left due a woman reading scripture in front of the congregation.

I have not seen any current elder comment on these threads.

1 Corinthians 5:11

But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister [a] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

[a] The Greek word for brother or sister (adelphos) refers here to a believer, whether man or woman, as part of God’s family; also in 8:11, 13.

Lisa DiGiacomo: We have only two options: We all called to cover a multitude of sins, or we follow Matthew 18. Neither of those options give us liberty to express a bad report to anyone other than the accused, a witness, and then the church

Lisa, you say we have only two options, but you are wrong. 1 Corinthians 5:11 gives a third option.

In 1 Cor 5 it’s clear that Paul listened to a report by a third party—people from Chloe’s household. Paul did not tell Chloe she should let her husband deal with the matter. Paul believed the report. I think he knew that the people who made that report were honest, trustworthy and discerning.

After hearing the report, Paul wrote to the Corinthian congregation sternly admonishing them for tolerating a heinous sinner in their midst. He instructed them to immediately hand that heinous sinner over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. He said it was URGENT that they expel the sinner from the congregation, because if they didn’t his presence would have a deleterious effect on the whole congregation.

Paul did not tell the people in Chloe’s household that they should follow the steps of Matthew 18.

Paul didn’t say that a presbytery or the elders needed to do an investigation first.

Paul did not accuse the people in Chloe’s household of violating the 9th commandment.

(1 Cor. 5:11-13) “But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler — not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. Purge the evil person from among you.”

1 Corinthians 5 tells us there are six sins for which professing believers should be promptly and resolutely disciplined:

1. fornication — sexual sin
2. covetousness — greed
3. idolatry — elevating something other than God to the place that only God can occupy
4. reviling — assailing with abusive and scornful language, verbal abuse, slander
5. drunkenness
6. extortion — snatching, taking by force, predation, rape, plundering, subsisting on live prey.

We know the church discipline must be total dis-fellowshipping of the hypocrite, because Paul taught this explicitly:

“When you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. … put away from yourselves that wicked person .” (1 Cor. 5:4–5, 13b).

Most importantly, we know this to be a commandment to the CHURCH, not just to the individual who has been the victim of the heinous sinner’s conduct.

And we know that in the case which precipitated the commandment (the man who slept with his father’s wife) Paul had been appraised of the facts (presumably by Chloe’s people 1:11; 5:1). Paul was prepared to credit that report without ascertaining the facts for himself.

Paul listened to a report from a third party. So let’s ask ourselves – did Paul listen to gossip? Gossip about a man? From the household of a woman? No; it wasn’t gossip. It’s certainly not gossip if you’re a part of the problem or a part of the solution to the problem, and Paul knew that his informants wanted the problem solved – they wanted the sin to be rightly addressed.

Ron DiGiacomo: The only way I can reconcile not spreading a bad report and dealing with sin in the church is through availing ourselves to the courts of the church.

Ron, as Dee has rightly told you, Scripture does not use the term “church courts”.

I’m a Presbyterian and I know the arguments that Presbyterian have for the system of church governance.

I don’t think it’s helpful for us to debate systems of church governance here. But I do want to point out that any Presbyterian congregation which has had SO MANY abusers in its warp and weft for years (see the GRACE report) has no credibility to urge people to utilise its church courts system.

Why would people trust the Tenth elders and the Presbytery to handle their complaints and reports in a godly way, when the elders and the Presbytery have been MIShandling things for so long? The GRACE report gives evidence of some of that mishandling, but others on this comments thread have testified that there were more bad things than the GRACE report covered.

Frankly Ron, when you urge people who have concerns about Tenth to use the church courts system, you sound like a guy who entices school kids into starting off on illicit drugs. The drug user’s trajectory can lead to long term harm to the user. The abused person (or the caring supporter of the abused person) who tries to use the church courts system usually finds that the system is stacked against them and it burns them out.

Michael in UK,

Does the presbyterian Confession deny Holy Spirit and Ascension? The glory that Jesus is going to get in these days is when the gifts are traded among us unvetoed. Bad church = bad theology, because doctrine is church order and even God is considered bound by it in heaven which is why it SHOULD be discussed. Bad church results in and is contributed to by ad hominem attitudes towards Karen and Barbara.

Friend,

All applicable in the context of the essay.

Lowlandseer: All applicable in the context of the essay.

“Applicable in the context,” eh? The context is that a ruling elder from one Presbyterian denomination called a rival Presbyterian denomination a harlot.

Back in the day, I don’t think even Macy’s called Gimbel’s harlot.

On Excommunication, from the Book of Church order of the PCA

30-4. Excommunication is the excision of an offender from the communion
of the Church. This censure is to be inflicted only on account of gross crime
or heresy and when the offender shows himself incorrigible and contumacious.
The design of this censure is to operate on the offender as a means of
reclaiming him, to deliver the church from the scandal of his offense, and to
inspire all with fear by the example of his discipline.

36-6. Excommunication is to be administered according to one or other of
the two modes laid down for indefinite suspension, or to be inflicted in public
as the court may decide. In administering this censure the moderator of the
Session shall make a statement of the several steps which have been taken with
respect to the offending brother, and of the decision to cut him off from the
communion of the church. He shall then show from Matthew 18:15-18 and 1
Corinthians 5:1-5 the authority of the church to cast out unworthy members,
and shall explain the nature, use and consequences of this censure. He shall
then administer the censure in the words following:
Whereas, _________________________, a member of this
church has been by sufficient proof convicted of the sin of
_______________________, and after much admonition and
prayer, obstinately refuses to hear the Church, and has
manifested no evidence of repentance: Therefore, in the name and
by the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ, we, the Session of
________________________ church do pronounce him to be
excluded from the Sacraments, and cut off from the fellowship of
the Church.
Prayer shall then be made that by God’s blessing this solemn action of
the court may issue in the repentance and restoration of the offender, and in
the establishment of all true believers.

36-7. If the censure includes suspension or excommunication, the moderator
shall proceed to say:
We do moreover, by the same authority, suspend the said
____________________ from the Sacraments of the Church, until
he shall exhibit satisfactory evidence of sincere repentance,
or
We do moreover, by the same authority, exclude the said
____________________ from the Sacraments, and cut him off
from the fellowship of the Church

I assume most commenters over here probably aren’t big fans of the popular Reformed and/or Calvinistic websites, but as a frequenter of them myself, I’ve been puzzled by the utter silence and “business as usual” approach after the scandals at Tenth were brought to light (GRACE report) and then with LG’s infidelity and subsequent cover-up being made public, culminating in his sudden resignation.

Make what you will of Ref21 and Rev. Mark Jones, but I appreciate them at least having the care and guts to address the elephant in the room which many in the tiny P&R world I inhabit aren’t doing right now (https://www.reformation21.org/blog/when-a-pastor-falls).

May the Good Shepherd care for his wounded sheep and, yes, even the wayward ones, while exposing and protecting them from wolves.

Ira: For the sake of clarity, Goligher and Elzey were cited separately but under the same exact Incident number. They were the only two involved in that Incident. The sexual act was clearly the two of them together.
… It appears that Ron, by his own admission, left Tenth and eldership years ago.

Thank you for clarifying my words.

Yes, since I wrote that comment of mine I have seen that Ron commented saying he is no longer at Tenth.

Haha, it’s been that long, BCO

David Walton: 2. The member tells one or more elders about what they experienced.
3a. They never hear anything again, OR

As a teen, abused by a volunteer at a church not unlike Tenth, I accidentally divulged the molestation to the youth pastor (I thought the volunteer was my boyfriend). I never heard anything again. The volunteer suddenly stopped working with the youth program, but he continued to hang out with the teens at Sunday coffee hour, and to give me absolutely hateful stares. I gathered that he was told not to talk to me anymore.

Only as a grown woman did I realize he probably had more victims.

Very interesting post about the abuses in Proclamation Presbyterian over at Anglican Watch.

https://www.anglicanwatch.com/proclamation-presbyterian-another-sordid-mess-in-pca-emerges/

The post starts out:

“We are reposting this comment, because it offers valuable insight into misconduct at Proclamation Presbyterian in Bryn Mawr and the larger PCA.

###

You wanted some tips re Proclamation Presbyterian Church. Here they are:

After this short narrative there is a letter below from February, 2022 that was written to and received by the congregation of Proclamation outlining sexual misconduct of an Elder/Administrator and the cover-up by the Pastors and Elders. The letter was written by a former Elder who left the church when the Session of Elders refused to conduct an investigation. This sordid situation is similar to the one at Tenth Presbyterian with their former Music Director:
Like Tenth, the sexual misconduct went on for years
Like Tenth, it was covered up by the Pastors and Elders
Like Tenth the Elders took no action to protect the congregation
Like Tenth, the sexual offender was allowed to resign/retire
Like Tenth, the Pastors and Elders gave the sexual offender a celebratory reception when he resigned/retired
Like Tenth, the Presbytery responsible for Proclamation (Philadelphia
Metro West Presbytery) reviewed what happened and nothing was done
to discipline or remove any Pastors or Elders for their sinful/incompetent behavior.

Here is the letter from the former Elder to the Proclamation congregation outlining the entire sordid mess…”

Barbara Roberts,

A general query? Does “excommunicated” have anything to do with “communion” ceremonies? At the church which (I think) I’m a member of, I decline to partake in their occasional ceremony for reasons of conscience connected with the false top-down ecumenism that is now everywhere. No-one has ever advanced convincing reasons against anyone making “spiritual communion” in any church. Would Tenth hold “communion” ceremonies and would it be thought odd of anyone to not partake?

David Walton: Even now, the Tenth elders are following the same playbook, not distributing the GRACE report to members and casting doubt on the accuracy of the report available on the Internet. Every crisis is addressed with the goal of protecting the organization and fellow leaders.

I think keeping the church from being sued into oblivion by not publishing the GRACE report but letting every member read it is not really a “playbook” and it seems like it protects the members from wasting their donations on legal fees and judgements which the church already suffered by speaking too “transparently” about the Paul Jones case.

I wonder sometimes if anyone here has ever served on a jury? Are juries given “transparent” information? Or are they sometimes told to “ignore” things said in court they can’t hear because its prejudicial. Or sometimes, evidence is kept from them entirely!

Seems like a good idea. But if you’re not told everything in a Jury trial, are you being deceived? is the Judge “protecting the institution” or is she protecting the rights of the accused? What if the accused did it? do they have rights? who knows?

Michael in UK: A general query? Does “excommunicated” have anything to do with “communion” ceremonies? At the church which (I think) I’m a member of, I decline to partake in their occasional ceremony for reasons of conscience connected with the false top-down ecumenism that is now everywhere. No-one has ever advanced convincing reasons against anyone making “spiritual communion” in any church. Would Tenth hold “communion” ceremonies and would it be thought odd of anyone to not partake?

Hi Michael,
I am replying from my own understanding of how Presbyterians say and do things, rather than from any detailed study on my part about how BCO might answer your question.

I’m not sure whether by “communion ceremonies” you mean the table of the Lord’s Supper. When a Presbyterians excommunicate a person, that always bars that person from the table of the Lord’s Supper in churches that belong to that particular Presbyterian denomination, but it may more than that too — for example, it may also mean that the person is no longer welcome to attend that congregation.

As you probably know, there are many different denominations and micro-denominations that are Presbyterian.

Michael in UK:
Barbara Roberts,

A general query?Does “excommunicated” have anything to do with “communion” ceremonies?At the church which (I think) I’m a member of, I decline to partake in their occasional ceremony for reasons of conscience connected with the false top-down ecumenism that is now everywhere.No-one has ever advanced convincing reasons against anyone making “spiritual communion” in any church.Would Tenth hold “communion” ceremonies and would it be thought odd of anyone to not partake?

Sorry, I mispoke out of misunderstanding.

Here’s the PCA’s BCO on removal of sacraments from a person:

30-1. The censures, which may be inflicted by church courts, are
admonition, suspension from the Sacraments, excommunication, suspension
from office, and deposition from office

30-3. Suspension from Sacraments is the temporary exclusion from those
ordinances, and is indefinite as to its duration. There is no definite suspension
from the Sacraments.

37-2. After any person has been indefinitely suspended from the
Sacraments, it is proper that the rulers of the church should frequently converse
with him as well as pray with him and for him, that it would please God to give
him repentance

… One can be removed from this without being excommunicated. Excommunication is more seriousand means the person is not allowed back in at all…

Ker: I’ve known Tenth for going on 50 years. Not a member, but connections in various ways. This is a great grief. For the church itself, yes; how sad if it ceased to be. … But how much greater is the grief for the women, children and men who have been demeaned and abused, shamed and dismissed by so-called elders, whether wicked or ignorant, caught up in their own position and power. …

… it will take a long time for Tenth to deal with this. … And it may be too late for the survival of Tenth. Bad (under)shepherds. Did they really think the Shepherd would not see and come to rescue his sheep? They will be subject and are already, to an extent, to the discipline from the Lord himself that they would not place on their own ilk.

And who is this Ron DiGiacomo? … The Aquila report says that Ron is a PCA Ruling Elder in the Philadelphia Presbytery. …

Now my question is, if he’s such a good elder who can speak with such authority to people he does not know or have care of at present, in what church is he under care? …

Knowledge puffs up, but Love builds up. Where is the Love beyond his claim to it? Who appointed Ron to be Lawgiver and Judge? …

To me this Ron person reads like so many of the converts to the Reformed Faith I have known who think that by reading Reformed theology, adopting a persona and tone of gravitas, speaking their code, writing their theological opinions to be read and approved by people just like them, and imposing them on everyone else, that makes them the real thing. … I’ve been lurking on the Wartburg Watch for a long time. Since Iain Campbell, the NYTimes article, which came first? …

It’s happened to me. Lovely old churches have been ruined by people like this. I cringe at the pain caused to many on this blog by these pretenders. …

Tenth has failed her people, and so the people must speak and not allow themselves to be put under a yoke of slavery and shut down. It is for freedom that Christ set us free. The only thing that matters is faith expressing itself in love. I appreciate very much the people that try to do that on the Wartburg Watch. And especially Dee. I know that this is very, very hard work.

Yes! All this! Thank you Ker for your heart-stirring words. I believe you. I feel for you. Thank you for your prophetic voice!

The grief, the greater grief for those who have been wounded by wolves and Pharisees and hypocrites at Tenth AND the Presbytery which is tasked with overseeing Tenth.

May all who have sinned or turned a blind eye to sin repent! May God bring His wrath down upon their heads so that they feel heavy grinding conviction of sin and come out of their blind-leading–blind games. May they be threshed on His threshing floor in the hope that they will come to repentance. Let every last grain be crushed so that it will shed its hard husk … and if there is any kernel of wheat worth saving, let the husks be winnowed away and a remnant crop be saved.

Ker, you are correct that Ron DiGiacomo’s website tells us very little about him. Here’s the link to Ron’s website, for those who want it: https://philosophical-theology.com/

I have noted that Lisa DiGiacomo has made no reply to my rebuttal of her claim that there are only two options in dealing with sin in a fellow believer. Lisa, your non reply shows me that my rebuttal was biblically sound and you cannot push back against it.

The Shepherd WILL see and come to rescue his sheep. The Shepherd DOES see and IS rescuing his sheep.

When the broken lamb is rescued by the Good Shepherd, and the Shepherd carries the lamb in His arms, the lamb may be lacerated, have broken bones, and have been deeply traumatised by what had happened to it. The lamb may not remember all the bad things that had happened because those memories have blocked out. The lamb may have PTSD or C-PTSD. The lamb may not even be conscious that the Shepherd is carrying it in His arms. The lamb may have swooned, be unconscious and barely breathing. Or the lamb’s eyes may be stuck wide open in incomprehending terror. Nevertheless, the Shepherd is carrying it, and He will heal all its wounds, either in this life or the life to come.

Barbara Roberts:
R,

Thank you Micheal! Bless you.

Oops, I should have written ‘Thank you R!’

R: how he carried on preaching Law obedience though, for 9 more years, is beyond me!

Only in the flesh, drawing on his intellect, theological training, and gift of gab … a narcissistic pastor who bullied staff and failed morally preached not by the Holy Spirit. Many more like Mr. Goligher populate the church in America. We mistake the ability to speak with anointing.

Barbara Roberts:
Barbara Roberts,

It seems to me, now, that Tenth did not actually ‘excommunicate’ Karen and Dave from Tenth, using the definition of excommunication found in the BCO.
…
I can understand why Karen felt and believed they had ‘excommunicated’ her.
…
The problem is that the men on Session and the Session Clerk use language from the BCO.
…
the Clerk of Session may not bothered to think about how his wording could be easily misunderstood by his lay readers.

Karen and I are just discovering through this interaction that the Tenth elders claim that what did to us is not *technically* called excommunication. I’d like to state it more strongly than Barbara does above, though: no matter what they call it, they excommunicated us by any reasonable understanding of the word. Here are some quotes from the letters they sent us:

“Should you choose to flee the jurisdiction of our church and seek fellowship in any church that affirms any LGBTQ identity and is therefore not a true church of the Lord Jesus Christ…you will be cut off from the true fellowship of Christ’s body.”

“As you have decided to affiliate with a body judged by the court as failing to maintain the Word and Sacraments…your names are erased from the church rolls. To erase the names means you have not fulfilled your membership obligations in this or any other branch of the Visible Church.”

“You are deemed no longer to be a member in any body which rightly maintains the Word and Sacrament.”

Whatever they call it, our church leaders are telling us that we are no longer part of Christianity as they define it. (And also, by the way, that the entire church we are now attending and thousands of other churches around the country aren’t part of Christianity either.) The letters are brutal in their legal formality and pronouncements of hellfire. (“We remind you that our Lord does not deal kindly with those who lead their children astray, but instead will dole out greater punishment on the last day.”)

So if according to the technicalities of the BCO, this isn’t technically excommunication, that is a distinction without a difference. With forceful and violent language, we have been expelled and proclaimed to be out of the faith. Their letters tell us we are excommunicated as any reasonable person would understand it. Karen and I and our children have certainly felt excommunicated when receiving them. For them to come back months later and say, “Oh no, we didn’t excommunicate them, we simply removed them from our membership rolls” totally belies the nature of the experience.

David Walton: “Should you choose to flee the jurisdiction of our church and seek fellowship in any church that affirms any LGBTQ identity and is therefore not a true church of the Lord Jesus Christ…you will be cut off from the true fellowship of Christ’s body.”

“As you have decided to affiliate with a body judged by the court as failing to maintain the Word and Sacraments…your names are erased from the church rolls. To erase the names means you have not fulfilled your membership obligations in this or any other branch of the Visible Church.”

“You are deemed no longer to be a member in any body which rightly maintains the Word and Sacrament.”

I am amazed at the arrogance! These churches seek to assert that they, and only they, know who is “in” and who is “out”. They forget Romans 11:32. We may cry “foul” but it is God’s right to show mercy to whomsoever he wills (Exodus 33:19) – we don’t get a say. A lot of people don’t like a God like that, but hey, get over it. God may already have decided to have compassion on LGBTQs – so how dare I presume to declare them outside of his grace? it’s God’s call.

David Walton: For them to come back months later and say, “Oh no, we didn’t excommunicate them, we simply removed them from our membership rolls” totally belies the nature of the experience.

They didn’t even say that. They said you asked to be dropped from membership. They never admitted they removed you. According to Karen, you said you didnt want to be members AFTER they had already removed you from membership via that letter.

If you had said you didn’t want to be members after receiving the warning letter, before they had sent you the removal letter, then that in and of itself would be reason for discipline, since you were already being warned of being disciplined. This is according to the BCO. Karen mentioned this, and I confirmed it by reading the BCO.

Jennifer: ,

I work at Tenth Presbyterian Church for almost 16 years. And I know what bullying means at Tenth. I went through it at tenth 8 years. I’m doing my best to stay away from Tenth now. I still feel that evil when I do come back for a visit at Tenth. Too much evil. I never trusted any of the pastors, elders or deacons or a lot of the members. I would never go to any of them for help. There was a few good ones then. Don’t know about now. There is a black cloud still hanging over Tenth.

I am so sorry you were bullied while working there. I can relate. I think it is best to distance from any place which would abuse its’ people in such way. A danger is that abuse is normalized in such a culture, and people who are being abused sometimes develop Stockholm syndrome, and/or excuse what is happening to them! Sometimes it is because the community they found there is the only community they know and they can’t bear the thought of losing it. I wonder how you endured it for 8 years — sounds very painful.

R: coffee

But we need to smell it. I knew a prominent couple who swept a church; I haven’t figured out why they were so on / off and no-one else would admit to have noticed.

People who are continually short circuiting burn out everyone around them after twenty, forty, sixty years.

On page 37 of ‘The fellowship of the King’ by Liam Goligher it says, rightly:

‘For the New Testament writers, wrong behaviour follows from wrong belief.’

If he had applied this to what he saw IN TENTH in 2010, why did he accept this assignment? Why would they be teachable? Why would they extend him genuine fellowship? Is there prayer at Tenth, or Duke Street?

Lack of prayer leads to vagueness and vagueness leads to confusion about whether one is appreciated or not and whether that is a good or bad thing. If presbyterians have everything in the bag I don’t see why they would teach each other to pray. Theirs (and denominational segments that copy them) is a less-than gospel. (I think John Knox, and Spurgeon, and MLJ are a cut above.)

Fundamentals as marketing maximums one is foreordained to fall short of (“what you see is more than you’ll get”); Jesus left us permanently depraved. Contrast some obscure person they haven’t heard of, many times punished in shame: “love believes all things”. More Scripture: “Love casts out fear” and “what * is not of faith is sin” and “pray without ceasing”.

{ * e.g floor sweeping }

In the same book LG gets going-the-extra-mile wrong: Jesus was teaching us to deflect the cynicism of the oppressor back in their faces.

What really did they teach at his grandmother’s church, or at Liam’s churches prior to Duke Street?

Michael in UK:
R,

Sorry for typos. My computer got messed up.

R,

Customarily in the RC up to some time ago, no-one “took any notice” of someone that didn’t “go up”. Most people sat out most weeks, till communion was made more or less compulsory (I think that was seen as a sort of political fix) (but it has rebounded in that it no longer affords public figures with “anti catholic policies” the tactful cover of doing one of the normal-looking things).

Of late I’ve had arms waved at me in Roman churches since I reverted to my sounder childhood habits, as well as in protestant ones. The old idea of queueing used to be that one used one’s discretion and initiative to partake of elements or not.

Though my family were in our unique sub subculture we really had highly normal religion in lots of ways (dad would “go up” often, mum never, but she would tell us to a few times a year – when not crowded!) One’s style of spirituality in those days really was individual and varied.

(I’m not going to comment on the various permutations of staying in pew.)

The only ordinance Jesus gave (other than baptism) was to remember the gifts in the other members of His Body (but I didn’t understand this till recently), something apparently no longer believed in due to the effects of debased top down “Reformed” (and lookalikes) and debased top down ecumenism alike (both equally assurance-less). Someone’s conscience may eventually spark others’ conscience to critique at least the pointless signalling; we can’t deduce official meanings any more than individuals’ ones. Spiritual communion has always had value. If my membership is confirmed I’ll “skip communion week” sometimes in case!

Michael in UK,

Already before Augustine the mystique of clergy ordination came from their being the ones through whom communion in the elements came (by consecration) – then later the mystique of communion was that it came through clergy (consecration OR no consecration). Communion was the bond of Jewish christians with synagogue members up to about 130 AD.

elastigirl: i’ve opted out of it (communion) – too much pressure. it turns into a show, like a standing ovation – there’s a peer pressure element to it, & i reckon many people end up going through the motions simply to look the part.

i refuse to insult a deep truth in that way. and the pretense that we even begin to understand it.

Too many churches have turned a sacred sacrament into a sacrilege. Years ago, I attended a NeoCal church plant in my area on their “communion day” to check out the new movement. The young reformed “pastor” made light of the sacrament by saying “I picked up some cheap grape juice and crackers at Walmart. Grab some on the way out!” Laughter ensued. Jesus wept.

Even in more civilized churches, I don’t believe the masses truly understand what they are partaking in, the significance of the Lord’s Supper. A popular passage used on communion day is 1 Corinthians 11:23-26. I believe the pastor needs to read 1 Corinthians 11:27-30 first.

“Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.”

Max: The young reformed “pastor” made light of the sacrament by saying “I picked up some cheap grape juice and crackers at Walmart. Grab some on the way out!” Laughter ensued.

“WE THANK THEE, LOOOOORD, THAT WE ARE NOTHING LIKE THOSE FILTHY ROMISH PAPISTS WITH THEIR SATANIC DEATH COOKIES…”

David Walton: those who lead their children astray

What if it wasn’t these parents? What if it was worldly institutions incited precisely to copy hypocritical religion only more frankly at lack of Spirit?

Eric Bonetti: “empty rote, empty hearts, empty hands.”

There’s been an outbreak of that in the institutional church.

Guest: old culture of this church

Usually means a long-established power structure within a church with a ruling family or two calling all the shots … or an elder board filled with men of wealth and prominence rather than the Spirit. I once had a denominational executive tell me that some churches won’t get any better until the old deacons die. A crude way to put it, but it was certainly the case in some of the SBC churches I attended over the years.

Guest: Unfortunately you are describing Tenth to a tee. It’s either wealth and prominence or an immense amount of pride. I see all of it there.

I’ve been around this mountain so many times in churches, that I could walk into Tenth with eyes and ears open and tell you within a month, without knowing anyone, who the power mongers are at Tenth. They may have a form of godliness, but there is another spirit driving their flesh. Testing and trying the spirits will identify the bad-boys they are chained to.

R,

That’s all I’ve gleaned or figured out so far. It’s plain to me Jesus was “ordaining” that our food is by our Holy Spirit-fuelled “sacrificial” continual prayers and lifetsyle to strengthen the Holy Spirit gifts in each other. Communion bread and wine was a Jewish custom; synagogue members would perform it at home or maybe in “upper rooms”.

Real Presence (which is different from any “transubstantiation”) in the sacrament worked, because the weight of christian church attenders until recently believed in the gifts (for living) of us all, genuinely encouraged in that however implicitly by their pastors including “non pentecostal” ones. The idea that pastors have replaced Holy Spirit (which exhausts them) and that the word is the thing (reifying, which blasphemes all human language including secular) is sapping all our belief levels.

Early christians would do synagogue member things with synagogue members if they were synagogue members, then all the christian believers would hold their own gathering as well where the gentile believers were equal to them. Empire-engineered mistrust reached breaking point in the 130’s. Synagogue members have been going over to Christ despite misportrayals of Christ by church leaders, individually for 2,000 years as members of gentile nations also can do, as you and I (however imperceptibly) reaffirmed as we grew up if already believing from infancy; and meantime christians certainly shouldn’t sensationalize or mystify any affairs among jewish religious or secular people as an unfortunate sub-cult do.

(I’m part Jewish – a grandmother whom I didn’t know was a convert at age 5 – and her mother I was told, played the drums! – and it shaped my home background to some extent as I am now intuiting in retrospect; and also the “sides” I see are especially the sides fashion mongers aren’t pushing on us, which is just my temperament: look where they are not telling you to look.)

It’s taken me some pondering. I think all christians should take more time pondering, using general knowledge, adding two and two together to get something remarkably like 4, and talking to Jesus about the many things He said and the entirety of Scripture OT and NT which contain surprising insights! Christians ought not to confine themselves to the unbalanced “selection” their pastors “graciously” give them permission to confine themselves to.

Fallen sick : have we witnessed sick church?
Died : at least, dead in the water, dead hands, dead wood and obviously that means elders first and foremost.

This is what Nietzsche saw in the church under the rule of the Iron Chancellor, and poetically proposed some man who would surmount that (his sister in law and Heidegger haven’t helped his presentation, whatever his own faulty metaphysics etc; he didn’t have answers and christians should set the example of not wanting to swallow a philosopher’s system whole or demanding of them a system – factionalism and package dealing, ad hominemly; some of his questions were also put by Kierkegaard – a licenced preacher and re-accreditor of fellow preachers – where Denmark had a similar if apparently less gross religion problem).

Jesus will actually ask us whether we prayed that our church wouldn’t end up with this situation. If it was bad for Liam to mix with people who were hogging the reins of power and were already like that (including some I knew who disguised themselves as “nice” and even nice people who were deluded about the nature of right spirituality), surely it will be bad for all of us if it is creeping across our church. Strong honest prayer behind their backs might make hitherto bad elders or ones who aren’t but would be prone, forget or not bother to do bad, or protect them from deception. Or Holy Spirit will “break it up” before it breaks up in the flesh.

Ordinary believers should be salt and light in their own church first, by prayers first – don’t wait for the bosses’ permission to pray (Jesus didn’t teach that): “don’t stifle your brother’s gift”, well your elders are essentially your brothers even if they in objectively onerous busyness forgot it themselves.

People who make a song and dance of excommunicating and not excommunicating at the same time (like the ESS who are ESS and not ESS at the same time) have, tragically, stopped having anything to teach us except an object lesson. In some churches is their invented church order, rebadged as doctrine, the only doctrine?

Michael in UK: Doesn’t Scripture foretell believers will see things?

Yes, and what you see, you can’t unsee. What you know, you can’t unknow … it’s in your knower.

So it turns out that Tenth are NOT going to vote today to terminate Dr Goligher’s contract, as planned. It seems some members want to know more information before doing so. Does that mean he actually might be retained by Tenth???

Michael in UK: Doesn’t Scripture foretell believers will see things?

Remember how Deep Throat Driscoll took that verse and ran with it?
“I SEE Things…”