(Update) Liam Goligher Resigns! Guess Those “Personal Conduct Citations” Were Spot on.

“The sinful nature is all about self: pleasing self, promoting self, preserving self. Sin is selfish.”Max Lucado


This just in. Liam Goligher, Pastor of Philadelphia’s Historic Tenth Presbyterian Church, Resigns. “Liam Goligher gone nine years after pleading guilty to “personal conduct” charges in Lancaster PA city park.” According to Ministry Watch:

The administrator of Tenth Presbyterian Church, Jim Hess, provided the following statement to MinistryWatch:

Dr. Liam Goligher resigned as Senior Minister of Tenth Presbyterian Church on Friday, December 1, 2023. This has been difficult news for the Tenth community. The formal dissolution of the pastoral relationship will be conducted according to the polity of the Presbyterian Church in America. Tenth Church has no further information regarding the 2014 citations of Dr. Goligher and Susan Elzey other than what is publicly available. Our denomination also has a process for addressing questions which the citations could raise. Concerns related to Dr. Goligher will be referred to the Philadelphia Presbytery and those pertaining to Susan Elzey to Tenth’s Session.

Susan Elzey’s name is blanked out on Tenth’s website.

This is just a short post to say the following:

  • There is no difference between a citation and an arrest in the eye of the church. This citation is given for sexual activity not singing hymns too loudly in a city park. It’s time to accept that Goligher did not love his church enough to tell them the truth yet demanded such transparency from others.
  • It is also probable that Goligher pursues risky behavior. Few people would choose to break their wedding vows by having sex in a city park. Did he say:

Hey, babe, let’s do it in a public place. It’s better that way?

  • How did he come up with this idea? Why didn’t they get a private hotel room? Due to this odd choice, I believe that it is probable that he has participated in other risky behavior with/and/or relationships with other women. These things rarely stay private when exposed to the public.
  • I think the elders held Goligher in such high esteem they never checked his background. It’s elementary to do this. Were they too enamored of their pastor? Did they believe that sanctification, as preached at the Tenth? Do they not believe that anyone is capable of grave sin? Why did this take the website of Anglican Watch, which actually checked out Goligher’s background?
  • Now for a tricky question. Did any church leaders know of this indiscretion and cover it up? Is it time to get a fresh slate of leaders? I think they should.
  • I suggest a second investigation by a skilled third party. I think there is more to uncover.

Finally, I believe that things were not handled well with Phil Snyder. It turns out he was right on a number of points. Maybe it’s time to reassess the situation, given that Golighet and Elzey were heavily involved. It turns out that they were not leaders imbued with honesty.

As I said on Twitter: “If he had truly loved the church and embraced its theology, he would have reported it to the church immediately.”

I am curious to hear from those who were or are members of this church.

Comments

(Update) Liam Goligher Resigns! Guess Those “Personal Conduct Citations” Were Spot on. — 369 Comments


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    But why don’t TGC remove all the erroneous content by the others – because erroneous? Christians should be known for speaking truth about God. Then missteps will appear in perspective – as consequence as it was for LG. He’s codependent not evil, but was evidently reinforcing others’ evil words. (It’s presumably not easy to tell, if one has been to the usual theology colleges.) All christians should implore God about the belief level of all ministers, and the state of their mutual relationships, in all churches.


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    Having seen more background in the last few minutes all I would add is christians must stop being codependent in a big, big, big hurry, and pull out of evil, and stop getting religion out of playbooks (designer melodrama).


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    Are we rejoicing that another Evangelical pastor has fallen?


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    seneca: Are we rejoicing that another Evangelical pastor has fallen?

    No rejoicing here … only grief that the Body of Christ has experienced yet another fallen pastor and that a lost world has yet another reason to say “See, there’s nothing to it.”


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    Michael in UK,

    I wrote the middle few words too weakly. Mrs Elzey has “something on” the other personnel, and Liam, weakened by the TGC / NF non-gospel, was eager to cement and authorise her & their years-long attempt to compromise a good man in their mutual dark bind.

    We got too used to the sight of these posh-looking churches in England, some of which piped the videos of their counterparts.

    seneca,

    Count me out because I’m not. Can you define “evangelical” for us? And why were you not in despair about his non-gospel more than 9 years ago?

    Are there “theological” schools / professional standards for church secretaries / non profit operatives? Because Mrs E might be the one that gets the ovation and another job.

    Obviously LG knew the Virgo group far better than lowly I did; what’s in their background to attract others to their rank?


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    seneca,
    Don’t worry, Seneca.
    He’ll be back.
    Wait a few months for the heat to blow over, then claim an Angel Encounter at a gas station in Wyoming an/or a Direct Vision from God and Return to Ministry with a Standing Ovation worthy of Comrade Stalin or Baba Saddam.

    Lather, Rinse, Repeat, Lather, Rinse, Repeat, Lather, Rinse, Repeat…


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    seneca:
    Are we rejoicing that another Evangelical pastor has fallen?

    No need to worry, Seneca.
    He doesn’t count.
    Presbyterian, NOT Evangelical.


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    seneca,

    Rejoicing that God has revealed the truth.If he loved the church, he would have confessed.


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    dee: If he loved the church, he would have confessed.

    He had 10 years to get around to that.


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    Lowlandseer:
    PCA BOOK of Church Order – Discipline of a minister/teaching elder. Ch34.

    https://www.pcaac.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/2023-BCO-PCA.pdf

    It seems to me that their practice takes as its basis James Durham’s “ The dying man’s testament to the Church of Scotland, or, A treatise concerning scandal divided into four parts … : in each of which there are not a few choice and useful questions, very shortly and satisfyingly discussed and cleared
    Durham, James, 1622-1658., Blair, Robert, 1593-1666.”

    It is a complex work but the following excerpt is quite straightforward – “ The nature of this Ordinance cleareth this also; for (as Divines say) it is added to confirm Gods threatnings, as Sacraments do seal the promises; then it importeth, that there must be a clear threatning ere this can be appended; and there can be no such threatning applyed, but where both the sin in its na∣ture, and the fact in its notority are convincing; and indeed all the precedents of this Sentence in Scripture are of this nature, to wit, they are both rare, and also upon most convincingly grosse evils. I cannot ex∣presse it better than it is done by that Reverend Di∣vine, Mr. Thomas Hooker of New England in his Hi∣story, part 3. pag. 39. Such evils, (the words are his) which are either heynous and abommable, as fornication, murther, adultery, incest, treason, &c. or, if not so grosse, yet carry the face of evil in their forehead, upon the first serious and well grounded consideration of reason; and have been pertinaciously and obstinatly persisted in after the improvement of all means upon them for conviction and reformation: These only deserve Excommunication by the rules of Christ, 1 Cor. 5. Matth. 18. 17. ”
    (taken from original text, hence the odd spelling).

    Reformation Heritage Books have just republished Durham’s work in four short paperbacks in modern English, for anyone interested.


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    On Sunday, there was a congregational meeting for members.

    Notes:

    When the elders asked Goligher about the Personal Conduct citation, he said that he was just eating lunch in the park. He also told them that he takes responsibility for making the situation look how it did. (My note… ?!?!? … arresting officer Chief Arnold gave Goligher and Susan Elzey a citation for Personal Conduct – sexual activity. They both pled guilty.)

    The elders acknowledged that Goligher paid the fine for public indecency of the sexual kind. They said that there will be another congregational meeting to officially vote Goligher out.

    The GRACE report brought new concerns to the elders’ attention, re: Carrol Wynne. He is on suspension with pay. He is still considered a minister in good standing — unless he goes on trial with the Presbytery.

    In terms of the GRACE report, “there are copies circulating online” and the elders’ “can’t verify their accuracy”. If a member wants to see Tenth’s version of the report, they will have to make a (physical?) appointment with Tenth.


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    Friend,

    Note to all:

    The linked comment does not come from the TWW regular who has posted as Friend for years, ever since first reading TWW. That would be me.

    I’m going to contact Dee and GBTC, but wanted to post this, to reduce confusion and give credit where it’s due. No biggie, yet it’s better not to have duplicate handles.


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    As for a background check. I think LG came to 10th in 2011. The arrest was after that. Maybe yearly checks are needed to be sure the elder, pastor, or officer remains “blameless.”


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    Max: He had 10 years to get around to that.

    Which indicates that he is not a genuine believer.

    In my opinion, a genuine believer can commit such sin. However, if God is truly who he says he is, he will convict of sin (John 16:8), he will complete the work of sanctifying his own (Philippian 1:6), and he is all powerful. That seems to indicate that a man would be under such great conviction (think Psalm 32:3-5), he or she could not function. This idea that you can sin in such a grievous way and it not be revealed is not found in the Bible.


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    I am soon to publish a post about Liam Goligher at cryingoutforjustice.blog

    I hope many you guys will read it!

    Thanks Dee for participating in the work of exposing wolves in shepherd’s clothing. 🙂


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    Sorry Friend! I will change my name on here

    Friend:
    Friend,

    Note to all:

    The linked comment does not come from the TWW regular who has posted as Friend for years, ever since first reading TWW. That would be me.

    I’m going to contact Dee and GBTC, but wanted to post this, to reduce confusion and give credit where it’s due. No biggie, yet it’s better not to have duplicate handles.


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    Michael in UK,

    And why were you not in despair about his non-gospel more than 9 years ago?
    #
    I had no idea Liam existed before Dee’s post.


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    Godith: Maybe yearly checks are needed to be sure the elder, pastor, or officer remains “blameless.”

    That should be an ongoing accountability process by the elder board. It obviously failed in this situation. Church members on the earlier post cited historical concerns about Mr. Goligher’s narcissistic behavior, yet he remained in the pulpit. You will find no examples of a Spirit-filled narcissistic pastor in the New Testament … such behavior is not a fruit of the Holy Spirit.


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    Friend,
    you can have too many friends


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    Friend,

    Thx for the clarification.

    Friend 1 and Friend 2?


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    I just read on the bird site that Anglican Watch got a cease and desist letter from Liam Goligher’s attorney, Richard Coble. I’m thinking truth is an absolute defense to libel, but the letter was apparently a joke (who writes “solacious” for “salacious”?).


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    seneca:
    Are we rejoicing that another Evangelical pastor has fallen?

    Um, no. But, personally speaking, I’m glad another con man has been outed so that he can’t con anyone else. And, Lord willing, so that he can take this opportunity to turn over a new leaf.


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    Sarah (aka Wild Honey): Um, no.But, personally speaking, I’m glad another con man has been outed so that he can’t con anyone else.And, Lord willing, so that he can take this opportunity to turn over a new leaf.

    Well-stated!!


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    seneca:
    Are we rejoicing that another Evangelical pastor has fallen?

    Seneca,
    Are you rejoicing that another pastor has hurt his church….. harmed, even possibly destroyed the faith of some of his parishioners… causing them to walk away?
    Or, maybe are you rejoicing that he has irreparably hurt his wife, his children, and his grandchildren.


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    Ava Aaronson,

    I am Nancy2 for a reason.
    I may drop the (aka Kevlar) one of these days, but I’ll keep the 2, in honor of the first Nancy.
    There are still several commenters on here who remember her.


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    Bob M: Max: He had 10 years to get around to that.

    Which indicates that he is not a genuine believer.

    You’re playing Goligher’s Game on Goligher’s home turf, Bob.
    While you start things going about whether he is a genuine believer or not, you sidetrack everything into theological minutiae (Bible-verse Zip Codes and all — “QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE!”). And while we’re all bickering about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, he slips out the back door laughing.


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    Nancy2(aka Kevlar): There are still several commenters on here who remember her.

    I miss her (Nancy a.k.a. Okrapod) wisdom and her humor.


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    Gus: I miss her (Nancy a.k.a. Okrapod) wisdom and her humor.

    Okrapod was the real deal.


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    Max,

    I miss her too


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    Friend: When the elders asked Goligher about the Personal Conduct citation, he said that he was just eating lunch in the park. He also told them that he takes responsibility for making the situation look how it did. (My note… ?!?!? … arresting officer Chief Arnold gave Goligher and Susan Elzey a citation for Personal Conduct – sexual activity. They both pled guilty.)

    Lunch date with extracurriculars?

    Then lying about it. Not to the officer but to the church community.

    From the video that “S” shared on the other post, the church leader seems to have an eye for the ladies. Instead of a heart for faithful commitment … faithful commitment to marriage, family, church, truth, etc.

    Sometimes faithful commitment is not the most exciting life, but then Jesus was not necessarily about excitement. Jesus was never boring, though.

    S*x, lies, and city citations. In the park. Hardly the bio of a church leader, except it is. Truth is stranger than what even Hollywood can produce. Chollywood.


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    Jeffrey Chalmers,

    As I get older, I realize my wit and wisdom are slipping. Thanks to the regular Wartburgers like you who put up with me.


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    Ava Aaronson: S*x, lies, and city citations

    … and a big party with a standing ovation before he leaves Dodge?


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    Muslin fka Dee Holmes:
    I just read on the bird site that Anglican Watch got a cease and desist letter from Liam Goligher’s attorney, Richard Coble. I think truth is an absolute defense to libel, but the letter was a joke (who writes “solacious” for “salacious”?).

    Eric is having a good laugh over that. A few Liam sycophants are excited about it, thinking something will happen. It is nonsense, and I bet his lawyer knows it—salacious versus solacious…poor form.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy: You’re playing Goligher’s Game on Goligher’s home turf, Bob.
    While you start things going about whether he is a genuine believer or not, you sidetrack everything into theological minutiae (Bible-verse Zip Codes and all — “QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE!”). And while we’re all bickering about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, he slips out the back door laughing.

    Biblical minutae? They are simple biblical truths. It appears from that statement that you have a view of the Bible (the 66 regularly accepted books of Protestantism) that it just includes the word of God, or it is not inspired or inerrant, or some such thing. Can you clarify? These are simple statements from the Bible. They are not obscure.


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    Bob M,

    “However, if God is truly who he says he is, he will convict of sin (John 16:8),

    he will complete the work of sanctifying his own (Philippian 1:6),

    and he is all powerful.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++

    it’s kind of like playing a game of cards, and drawing these 3 cards as explanation for everything in the state of play.


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    Gus: I miss her (Nancy a.k.a. Okrapod) wisdom and her humor.

    Max: Okrapod was the real deal.

    I too miss her.
    She was a rare gem.


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    elastigirl: it’s kind of like playing a game of cards, and drawing these 3 cards as explanation for everything in the state of play.

    Good way pf putting it.


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    Honestly, I haven’t followed LG’s career closely, but I’m actually neither surprised nor disappointed. Just sad for a church that seemed from afar to take Christianity seriously.
    When I was a student on the Cornhill Training Course in London in 2004-2005, LG came to give a few (2 to 5?) lectures on 1 Peter, as I remember. But instead, he spent the first class speaking off the cuff and not very deeply from a portion of Romans, which he’d just preached on in the US. He was just off the plane, and I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, as he must have been tired and jetlagged. But it felt quite off, as if he were a student who hadn’t done his assignment and was trying to blag his way through this predicament. As a student, I could relate to that feeling of panic when you’re not ready, but he was a visiting lecturer, he didn’t apologize, in fact he seemed to be pushing the envelope as far as it would go. I seem to remember he was also provocative and quite cutting with students, and bizarrely insisted on bifurcating into the rights and wrongs of the American Revloution ( British students in the 21st century have long let that one go, so it was irrelevant).
    The next time, he wasn’t off the plane, but was still teaching the wrong book, as he did until the end of the course, so we never covered that book of the Bible ( I may have got the books mixed up, but I think he had been assigned 1 Peter). One of the students, who was an apprentice at his church, said that this was quite characteristic of him. Now I have to say the other lecturers and the teachers on the course were not at all like this, they were very well prepared, humble and gentle.
    It seemed like a little thing, and it never occurred to me to take this up with the leadership of the course, who weren’t present. TBH, it sounds rather like the Mahaneyesque inquisition to denounce someone for being truculent or brazen. But the odd thing is, I wouldn’t even put him down as a hypocrite. He was playing a game in plain sight, as if he were seeing how far he could go without getting a reaction. And from what the other students were saying, this was his modus operandi.
    Another thing that bothered me at the time, was that he was hired as the pastor of Duke Street Baptist Church, a well-established church, and I was told he was the one who changed its doctrine to Presbyterianism/ paedobaptism, and got them to drop the “Baptist” from the name of the church. I thought it was off to, in a way, privatize an existing church’s theology.
    At the time, he didn’t strike me as someone who was striving to be Christlike. I heard of his move to this extremely prestigious pulpit at 10th Presbyterian, and hoped I’d been too harsh on him, thinking there may be another side to him that warranted that trust.
    You know, it’s so sad when you realise someone of whom you had a poor opinion was actually much worse, and the off-putting glimpse you caught was actually that person’s deep nature. I have never read any of his books, and do wonder if there is any basis to his reputation for brilliance, one I didn’t see in those lectures twenty years ago. In any case, you don’t want a brilliant preacher for a pastor. I don’t think he was even brilliant.
    Anyway, it was a minor incident (although I knew I never wanted to have him as a pastor), but it may shed light for the people of 10th Presbyterian, or help make sense of certain things. There was something off. There always was…


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    it’s kind of like playing a game of cards, and drawing these 3 cards as explanation for everything in the state of play.
    elastigirl,

    Yeah. And it seems to me to be a stacked deck with marked cards. I checked those verses Bob M used in both the KJV and NIV Bible versions. The words in his quotes don’t have quite the same meaning.

    ***John 16:8- “And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:”
    ***Paul’s letter to the church at Philippi: Philippians1:6- “ being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”


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    Ava Aaronson:
    Friend,

    Thx for the clarification.

    Friend 1 and Friend 2?

    Sally and I did not know what to do,
    So we had to shake hands with Friend 1 and Friend 2!


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    Muff Potter:
    I too miss her.
    She was a rare gem.

    I miss her, too!


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    I bet you would like to hear from members of the church. I’m a member, and while I appreciate SOME of your efforts exposing problems in the church, when I read your approach I am constantly reminded of the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect that Michael Crichton talks about: someone reads a news article about a topic they know a lot about and discover its riddled with errors and then read about something they don’t know and just assume its all 100% well reported. Broken clocks may be right occasionally but maybe interview the wife of the Broken Clock? Have you done that?

    Could I correct many of the errors? Sure. Why though? It would just provoke more cycles of speculation, gossip, and guesswork treated as truth. Violations of the 9th commandment all.

    The speculation and hostile assumptions because everything is a “narrative” is really toxic here, even if some good comes from it. God can make good comes from even attackers. I just wish somehow it seemed the various “Watchdogs” and “Whistleblowers” didn’t rejoice so much in their own seeming vindication as they do mourn their own negative role in the pain that their work brings.

    sigh.


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    If LG has already resigned, why does he need to be voted out? He’s no longer employed by Tenth, surely?
    Friend,


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    Nancy2(aka Kevlar): I may drop the (aka Kevlar) one of these days, but I’ll keep the 2, in honor of the first Nancy.
    There are still several commenters on here who remember her.

    Thank you. She is missed.


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    dee: Liam sycophants

    Bad-boy pastors are distressing enough, but the servile self-seeking flatters who idolize them are just as concerning.


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    Max: flatters

    flatterers


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    I wonder what Al’s little playgroup over at T4G & TGC think about this situation with their dudebro?


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    Confused,

    I wonder if he is getting ready for a settlement. Money is usually part of the deal. Let me know.


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    Max:
    I wonder what Al’s little playgroup over at T4G & TGC think about this situation with their dudebro?

    Everything has disappeared at TGC. No explanation.


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    Re-Member Me,

    Welcome.
    This is pretty cut and dry. There was a police report and a plea. It happened. A pastor who takes a chance to participate in some sexual activity in a city park is most likely a risk taker, and he risked and lost.

    You don’t know if I rejoice in what I do. I can assure you I have counseled others on the matter and feel that I am doing something necessary. Until I and others started almost 14 years ago, this stuff got buried. That isn’t very kind.

    Go ahead and sigh. You offer nothing of value to the conversation except to say you don’t like it. At the minimum, you should be glad that evil has been exposed.


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    I can confirm that the reports posted online are the final GRACE report since I was one of the victims mentioned in the report. I have a copy of the report given to me by GRACE. Don’t let the session bully you into not getting a copy of the report. If you are a member you need to know what has been happening. Carroll Wynne’s decades of abuse has been dwarfed because of what has happened with Liam. I’m very sad for the congregation. All of this is very tragic.


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    Confused,

    One other thought. If he is allowed to resign instead of being fired, there will be a distinct financial benefit.


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    Celia Eve,

    Thank you for this insightful and helpful comment. I appreciate your perspective.


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    Friend #2: Sorry Friend! I will change my name on here

    Thank you. Welcome aboard!


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    I love this pastor in the Lord. I have been listening to his sermons on YouTube over the past five years, in addition to my own pastor’s sermons in person, of course.

    May God be merciful to Liam Goligher even as He was to King David (Psalm 51).

    We should pray for our pastors.


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    Celia Eve: the odd thing is, I wouldn’t even put him down as a hypocrite. He was playing a game in plain sight, as if he were seeing how far he could go without getting a reaction. And from what the other students were saying, this was his modus operandi.

    Thank-you Celia Eve for your comment. I found it illuminating and helpful.

    Playing a game in plain sight seeing how far he can go without getting a reaction — that is a behaviour which is quite common with psychopaths. I am not diagnosing LG. I’m only saying what I’ve learned in general about the behaviour of psychopaths.


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    dee,

    I was young and now am old. Along the way, I’ve observed that the primary discouragers of those who shed light on sin and error in the church are other church folks.

    “Set your gaze on the path before you. With fixed purpose, looking straight ahead, ignore life’s distractions.” (Proverbs 4:25)


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    Celia Eve: There was something off. There always was …

    I suspect many of the good folks at Tenth are now reflecting back on having had similar thoughts. God gives us flags if we watch and listen carefully.


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    Confused: If LG has already resigned, why does he need to be voted out?

    In Calvinist ranks, they like to continue to discipline you long after you’re gone … remove you from church membership, shun you in the community, excommunicate you from the church family, etc.


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    Violations of the 9th commandment all.
    Re-Member Me,

    And then there’s the 7th commandment. But maybe I missed something. Do the commandments not apply to church leaders……. or should the 7th say, “Thou shalt not commit adultery, unless thou do so in a public place”?
    He was arrested/cited. He pled guilty. The end……. Unless you can prove the police report is a lie, and the guilty plea is a lie

    And an FYI: the work of “Watchdogs” and “Whistleblowers” are not what causes pain: the atrocities committed by the villains is what causes pain.


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    Barbara Asabre: May God be merciful to Liam Goligher even as He was to King David (Psalm 51).

    Please be sure you understand this in context. David was a King; he was not a priest. A king was a political appointment. A priest was a religious appointment. God did not take the throne away from David, just like he did not remove the throne from most of the kings of Israel who did evil in the sight of the Lord. God promised that people would not like having a king like they demanded.

    God forgave David for his heinous sins. David continued in His kingship. God would remove a priest who did as David did. Both can be forgiven. One would not be restored to the priesthood. I bet you understand which of the two Goligher is.

    Any guy getting cited for some sexual activity in a public park is a man who has serious issues. He can be forgiven, but he should never be in the position of pastor again.


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    Max: Along the way, I’ve observed that the primary discouragers of those who shed light on sin and error in the church are other church folks.

    You’ve been reading my emails.


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    Barbara Roberts: Playing a game in plain sight seeing how far he can go without getting a reaction — that is a behaviour which is quite common with psychopaths. I am not diagnosing LG. I’m only saying what I’ve learned in general about the behaviour of psychopaths.

    Finally, someone is getting what I am hinting at! Who plays around in city parks? It’s usually weirdos who you warn your kids about.


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    dee: Who plays around in city parks?

    In addition to being ludicrous, it’s also funny in a black-comedy sort of way.


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    I was told that the congregation will vote on whether or not they accept his resignation. Am unsure what this really means.

    Confused:
    If LG has already resigned, why does he need to be voted out? He’s no longer employed by Tenth, surely?
    Friend,


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    Guest: I can confirm that the reports posted online are the final GRACE report since I was one of the victims mentioned in the report. I have a copy of the report given to me by GRACE. Don’t let the session bully you into not getting a copy of the report. If you are a member you need to know what has been happening. Carroll Wynne’s decades of abuse has been dwarfed because of what has happened with Liam. I’m very sad for the congregation. All of this is very tragic.

    I can also confirm that the GRACE report online is a copy of the original.

    I also agree that Wynne’s decades of abuse is being dwarfed by the Goligher scandal. I wish the Goligher scandal had not come out so quickly after the GRACE Report. I am worried that Wynne will not get voted out or investigated. What he has done has wreaked so much havoc in so many lives. Many of us have left. Many of us are young. Many of us have not reported what he has done to us. We are hurting. He is a sick, sick man. And the rot is deep. They have no place for us to anonymously report. Many are concerned about reporting, getting re-traumitized, and having to see him again and again, as happened with Pat Canavan. And what if the Presbytery is sick too? What if they are partially at the root of the rot?


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    Trying one more time. I hope dee will delete my first two tries.

    Barbara Asabre: First, David was not of the priestly line. He was not an elder or pastor. So he was not held to the same standard Goligher is.

    Second, God allowed King David’s son with Bathsheba to DIE. And then David wept before God. He knew why God took the child. Will Goligher be shown God’s wrath and then be forced to see the great error of his way? Let us hope God shows this man judgement enough to help him be so humbled his evil may be plainly revealed to himself and others.

    Barbara Asabre:
    May God be merciful to Liam Goligher even as He was to King David (Psalm 51).


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    “According to denominational rules, the congregation of Tenth Presbyterian has to vote on whether to accept Goligher’s resignation. Then the PCA’s Philadelphia Presbytery, which oversees pastoral conduct, will vote on ending his tenure at the church at the next presbytery meeting in January, said the Rev. Ryan Egli, pastor of City Line Church and moderator of the presbytery. The presbytery will also address reports of Goligher’s alleged misconduct at a meeting next week.

    “The Presbytery is obligated under the denomination’s governing policies to follow up those reports with due diligence and great discretion,” Egli told Religion News Service in an email. “The Presbytery will be considering those matters in a special meeting called for next week. As such, no member of the Philadelphia Presbytery can comment on potential or current judicial cases against ministers in the Presbytery.” ”

    https://religionnews.com/2023/12/12/liam-goligher-influential-pca-pastor-resigns-after-past-arrest-made-public/


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    Friend 2

    You changed your name which got you held up. Then you mentioned 2 previous tries to post a comment but there are 3 and it’s not clear they are duplicates of each other. Please let us know which are to be real and which are to be tossed.

    GBTC

    PS: Chaning your name around is a great way to get moderated.

    PPS: I’ll drop a note to dee for her to figure our your comments.


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    Thank you. It is the comment without all italics which should be posted. The final comment. It was about King David. I am not tech savvy. I kept messing up.

    GuyBehindtheCurtain:
    Friend 2

    You changed your name which got you held up. Then you mentioned 2 previous tries to post a comment but there are 3 and it’s not clear they are duplicates of each other. Please let us know which are to be real and which are to be tossed.

    GBTC


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    dee: Finally, someone is getting what I am hinting at!

    Dee, I think you will like the post I will be publishing in a few hours.

    cryingoutforjustice.blog


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    seneca:
    Are we rejoicing that another Evangelical pastor has fallen?

    Yeah, pretty much. Everyone loves a train wreck. For me it just reinforces that I made the right choice to stay home Sunday and save 10 %


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    dee,

    I do understand that he should not be a pastor ever again. I agree.

    All I am saying is that God be merciful to him.


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    dee,

    Oh, I was wondering… but did not want to “feed the trolls”…..
    Speaking of trolls, has there been anyone trying to explain away the police citation, and subsequent guilty/admission?
    Also, while I am not a dan of the “Billy Graham rule”, s$x in the park is about as opposite of that rules as you can get… especially when the police give you a citation
    ??


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    dee: You’ve been reading my emails.

    Didn’t need to … I’ve lived it.


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    GuyBehindtheCurtain: PS: Chaning your name around is a great way to get moderated.

    In case you did not realize this: Friend 2 changed his/her handle because it duplicated the handle I have used for years on TWW. (I sent an email, but maybe it got lost in cyberspace.)

    This newcomer just didn’t know there was already a person here named Friend, so no harm.

    But there’s some potential for mischief. If people who don’t like comments decide to duplicate the handles of other posters, they could sow confusion or discredit others.

    Thank you for everything you do. I know it’s time consuming and intricate work.


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    Barbara Asabre: May God be merciful to Liam Goligher even as He was to King David (Psalm 51).

    King David seems to always pop up on reports of pulpit failure. But, David was in the military, not the ministry. Does God’s mercy and grace extend to both? Certainly! Forgive a fallen pastor if he repents? Absolutely! Restore them to ministry? Absolutely not! There are no examples in the New Testament of a pastor who failed morally being restored to the pulpit.

    Barbara, believe it or not, the regular commenters on TWW grieve that the Body of Christ is experiencing this again. Moral failure by celebrity pastors has become a regular topic in the Christian blogosphere. Their victims include the good people who sit in pews who loved and trusted them, such as yourself. We are praying the best for Tenth as you deal with this very difficult situation.


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    Friend,

    I didn’t explain it to him before bed last night. I apologize. I have been under a bit of stress recently. It’s totally my fault.


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    Barbara Asabre: I have been listening to his sermons on YouTube over the past five years

    We forget that the reach of celebrity Christians reach into cyberspace. Beyond the membership at Tenth, there are perhaps thousands affected by this sad report.


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    Max,

    Good comment.


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    Jeffrey Chalmers: while I am not a dan of the “Billy Graham rule”, s$x in the park is about as opposite of that rules as you can get… especially when the police give you a citation

    What in the world is going on in this man’s head? Why didn’t he get a hotel room? Instead, it’s almost as if he wanted to get caught.


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    Ira,

    Now that is one meeting that I would find interesting. If anyone attends, I would like to hear a recap.


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    Muff Potter: In addition to being ludicrous, it’s also funny in a black-comedy sort of way.

    Monty Python would know how to handle it. Muff, there must be something wrong up in the former pastor’s head. He could have gotten a hotel room. Why do it in public? He is, at minimum, a risk taker and borders on exhibitionism.


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    Friend 2: David was not of the priestly line. He was not an elder or pastor. So he was not held to the same standard Goligher is.

    “My Christian friends, not many of you should become teachers. We people who teach God’s message must be very careful. When God judges everybody, He will demand more from us than from other people.” (James 3:1)


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    dee,

    You dear, kind lady! You’re so kind to apologize, but I wasn’t offended—just trying to clarify. I know you have been under a lot of stress, and I continue to hold you and your family in prayer.


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    dee,

    Yea…. If there was not so much “collateral damage”, this whole “activity in the park” is exactly what Monty Python would target….. and would be really funny….. but the damage done is a travisty


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    Jeffrey Chalmers,

    Kids these days say All Cops Are B*stards. We don’t trust church people but we trust cops? I’m intrigued by the fact that the citation is for type B “sexual activity” but not C (exposure of genitals) or D exposure of female breast. Unless someone interviews the cop (is he even working still?) we may never know what exactly he witnessed. But don’t let that stop you from speculating! Thinking “oh LG must be a weirdo risk taker”

    While yes, as dee says its “cut and dried” and I’m glad he’s gone and look forward to “dissolving the pastoral relation” as the presbies say i could go though 80% of your bullet points and specifically complain that its simply narrative speculation (‘this is how these things always go down’), bad, or unhelpful to the cause of actually dealing with the situation.

    just ONE example, and you should, dee, really be able to have the discernment to figure out what is overstated and silly about the bullet point that undermines the good you do

    “Now for a tricky question. Did any church leaders know of this indiscretion and cover it up? Is it time to get a fresh slate of leaders? I think they should.”

    I mean, don’t you have to *answer* the question before you know that “they should” get a fresh slate of leaders? Does an Elder elected last year need to go? Why? Do you know him? Anything about him? What he’s doing on session right now?

    Oh the whistleblower managed to get the goods. great! but what about the whistleblower (and here I mean LG himself who whisteblew on Jones!)? Could the “other” whistleblower have lurking abuses issues? Is he wound a little tight? How is his wife? “just asking”? Oh wait am I tarnishing a “good name” without any facts?


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    Lowlandseer: The GRACE report can be read in its entirety here
    https://warhornmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/GRACETenth-Presbyterian-Report-Final-Report-11.21.23-copy-1.pdf

    Guest: I can confirm that the reports posted online are the final GRACE report since I was one of the victims mentioned in the report.

    Guest, I am so sorry for whatever you experienced at Tenth. I hope you are finding a measure of healing and that the leadership of Tenth will express genuine public repentance for what you and others experienced.

    I have been reading through the GRACE report at the link shared by Lowlandseer. It is so much worse than a pastor and deaconess involved in an adulterous liaison in a park.

    Paul Jones. Of the same ilk as Jonathan Fletcher and John Smyth.

    So many accounts of procedural hurdles for victims or their allies that interfered with the victim or others being protected. A tendency for leaders to prioritize their concern to be careful with the reputation of the person when complaints were brought forward, many of whom were women. Sometimes large groups of women all making similar complaints about the same man.

    Still reading through the report. Let’s pray that Tenth responds with true repentance and care for those harmed at the church over the years.


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    Re-Member Me,

    Ah, here we go. Even though you are “glad he’s gone,” you suggest that this middle-aged pastor was a victim of some conspiracy. Been to Lancaster? Do you often see the police rounding up ministers who are simply chatting with ladies on separate park benches?

    Anyone charged with a crime needs and deserves legal representation. A middle-aged pastor should know enough to retain competent counsel. If the arresting officer invented charges to fill some quota, a lawyer should have sought to have charges dropped. If this man had no previous interactions with the courts in the state, his lawyer should have pointed that out.

    That guilty plea is right there on the paperwork. You say it could have been nothing criminal. Remember, though, hypothetically, an individual can plead down from five or ten felony counts. Of course, there’s no way to know, is there?

    [cue “Twilight Zone” theme]


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    Also, my impression as I have read through the report is that ignorance can do almost as much damage as deliberate attempts to hide truth.

    Churches have much to learn from organizations such as GRACE as well as from blogs like this one. Once you see the same patterns play out in situation after situation, it is eye opening. It sends you to the Scriptures as a whole to understand abusive situations rather than to a few favorite proof texts. Matt. 18:15-20 may win the prize for “Scripture citation most likely to be misapplied and result in the protection of wolves.”


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    Re-Member Me, Amen! I think that a lot of sordid assumptions have been made. Yes, he did get a citation and yes, something caused it and had he been following the principle that we are to “avoid the appearance of evil,” he wouldn’t have been alone with a woman who is not his wife.
    This all makes me sad! I am praying for Christine and LG. I’m praying for members of the church and the future of the church.
    What bothers me about several of these watchdog groups is the ugliness of the commenting. We are not to even “talk about the things that are done in darkness.” Rather than crucify a person for their sins, we ought to remember that those who are truly born again have been “rescued from the domain of darkness.” NOTHING that we’ve done has earned us God’s grace and forgiveness. We ought to show compassion!


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    The abuse of the leaders of this church goes very deep, and the damage and harm spreads further than just the church body and its members. Families are being split apart by the vile actions that have occurred. Through their actions, Wynne and Goligher have harmed so many, including those who have gone to them for counseling for sexual, emotional, and spiritual abuse. Those who have gone through counseling with these men only to learn of this have been revictimized, betrayed by those they trusted to help them who were guilty of the same.

    P.S. This is not abstract for me, this situation, the corruption of leadership of this church, the lies and abuse of these men is tearing my life and my family apart, and I am struggling to see any bright future or hope from God that it will be made right.


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    Friend #2,

    Friend#2,

    I’m assuming you’re the person who submitted a comment as Friend 2 on our blog at A Cry For Justice requesting that we let you know when Barbara Roberts published her post on Liam Goligher. 🙂 My apologies if I’m incorrect. 🙂

    And my apologies if there is a delay in my comment appearing — it might get hung up in customs, as I’ve not previously commented on The Wartburg Watch using this screen name.

    The link to Barbara Robert’s post on Liam Goligher, titled Liam Goligher turns out to be a wolf in shepherd’s clothing is:

    https://cryingoutforjustice.blog/2023/12/13/liam-goligher-turns-out-to-be-a-wolf-in-shepherds-clothing/


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    Quotidian: We are not to even “talk about the things that are done in darkness.”

    Do you believe in a Christian duty to cover up the misdeeds of pastors?


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    Re-Member Me: “Now for a tricky question. Did any church leaders know of this indiscretion and cover it up? Is it time to get a fresh slate of leaders? I think they should.”

    From what I’ve heard the church leaders did *not* know about the 2014 offense. But what *is* clear from the GRACE report is that the church has a culture of protecting the “good reputation” of offenders rather than taking care of the victims. The culture needs to be one of full openness and transparency – and on that score it really wouldn’t hurt to have some women in leadership positions. Since woman was *also* made in God’s image, it stands to reason that men cannot represent the full image and character of God. Male only leadership will always be deficient.


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    Broken Hearted: Through their actions, Wynne and Goligher have harmed so many

    Jesus warned “Many false prophets will appear and will deceive many people” (Matthew 24:11).

    Pastors/elders are supposed to be above reproach. Lord, have we ever had some reproach goin’ on at Tenth by these bad-boy “pastors”!

    The problem with deception is that you don’t know you are deceived because you are deceived. Tenth fell victim to a touch of charisma and a gift of gab with a Scottish brogue. The American church really needs to get over its fascination with celebrity preachers.


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    Quotidian: I think that a lot of sordid assumptions have been made.

    With good reason. Your pastor acted out in a city park, and the citation is embarrassing for the church. There is a reason he resigned. I bet he would not have done so if he was cited for singing hymns too loudly. This was not a case of being seen eating a lovely lunch with a gal pal. It runs much deeper.

    Quotidian: What bothers me about several of these watchdog groups is the ugliness of the commenting. We are not to even “talk about the things that are done in darkness

    Hmmm. you see ugliness. I see people who the church has wounded. I think it is essential for true believers to understand and respond to those who have been harmed. Here is a resource for you to consider.
    https://www.amazon.com/Subtle-Power-Spiritual-Abuse-Manipulation/dp/0764201379/ref=sr_1_1?crid=30M1FZAOS4LDY&keywords=the+subtle+tyranny+of+spiritual+abuse&qid=1702487082&sprefix=the+subtle+tyranny+of+spirituall+abuse%2Caps%2C82&sr=8-1
    I’m afraid I have to disagree with your out-of-context admonition not to “talk about things done in darkness.” We are to talk about sin in the camp: pastors who abuse sexually, emotionally, spiritually.” For way too long, people have used the “be quiet” verses to cover up sin. We are called to be a light on the hill. We cannot control what people see when they look at the church exposed to that light. If current stats are correct, many people are leaving the church due to sin that has been covered up.

    Quotidian: We ought to show compassion!

    Hmmm, isn’t that the case? See comments on this post of people whom Goligher’s embarrassing actions have wounded. Others have been injured in other churches. Yet you call their comments “ugly.” How about showing compassion?


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    Re-Member Me:
    Jeffrey Chalmers,

    I’m intrigued by the fact that the citation is for type B “sexual activity” but not C (exposure of genitals) or D exposure of female breast. Unless someone interviews the cop (is he even working still?) we may never know what exactly he witnessed.

    The “arresting officer” was CHIEF park ranger, Benjamin Arnold. He is still there. I have spoken to him personally. It sounds like he doesn’t remember the incident 9 years ago, and they incinerated the detailed records since they were more than 6 years old.

    Friend:
    Re-Member Me,
    Been to Lancaster? Do you often see the police rounding up ministers who are simply chatting with ladies on separate park benches?

    That guilty plea is right there on the paperwork. You say it could have been nothing criminal. Remember, though, hypothetically, an individual can plead down from five or ten felony counts. Of course, there’s no way to know, is there?

    Goligher told the elders that he was “just having a picnic” – were they having a picnic naked? Was he blindfolded and eating her vagina by accident? “Oops, I thought that was my sandwich?” It is bizarre.

    What does it matter if a violation of a County Park code is “criminal”? They were ticketed by the Chief of the county park law enforcement for sexual activity. Period.


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    Muff Potter,

    And if you want some fun
    Take Ob-la-di-bla-da!


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    Confused: it really wouldn’t hurt to have some women in leadership positions. Since woman was *also* made in God’s image, it stands to reason that men cannot represent the full image and character of God. Male only leadership will always be deficient.

    Tenth made a deliberate series of choices to continue excluding women from volunteer positions. It went so far as to leave its denomination, and then to go to court to keep the buildings (a classic maneuver). This is merely from Wikipedia, but it tracks with my understanding of changes in Presbyterian churches in that era:

    “In 1979, following a denominational ruling by the United Presbyterian Church in the United States of America requiring congregations to elect both men and women as ruling elder, Tenth Presbyterian left the UPCUSA in 1980, joining the more conservative Reformed Presbyterian Church, Evangelical Synod.[6] Three years afterward, Tenth followed the RPCES into the Presbyterian Church in America, a church of Southern origin.

    “After a lengthy property battle, the congregation was allowed to leave the UPCUSA while keeping its Byzantine-style property.”


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    Friend: Ah, here we go. Even though you are “glad he’s gone,” you suggest that this middle-aged pastor was a victim of some conspiracy. Been to Lancaster? Do you often see the police rounding up ministers who are simply chatting with ladies on separate park benches?

    This comment made me smile. I am seeing some folks who are so upset that their pastor has resigned they hope to prove it was nothing. It was just a simple misunderstanding by the police. Then he can come back, and their paradigm will stay in place.


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    Confused: it really wouldn’t hurt to have some women in leadership positions

    Uhhh … isn’t this a Calvinist church? It ain’t going to happen. Female deacons maybe, but never pastors or elders. But even the appointment of a Deaconess has some restrictions, as posted on the Tenth website:

    “Deacons
    In keeping with Acts 6:1-6, Tenth Church appoints “…men of good repute, full of the Spirit and of wisdom…” (Acts 6:3 ESV) to carry out the work of mercy ministry within our congregation. These men are ordained deacons.

    Deaconesses
    At Tenth deaconesses are non-ordained women who assist the Board of Deacons in carrying out its ministry, particularly in areas where it is more appropriate for women than men to serve.”

    https://www.tenth.org/about/diaconate

    So female believers “of good repute, full of the Spirit and of wisdom” who are gifted by God to preach and shepherd will find no room to exercise that calling at Tenth. They have to serve where “it is more appropriate” according to a bunch of men, some of which have had problems with their repute lately.


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    dee: I am seeing some folks who are so upset that their pastor has resigned they hope to prove it was nothing. It was just a simple misunderstanding by the police.

    According to a comment upstream by Ira “The “arresting officer” was CHIEF park ranger, Benjamin Arnold.” I suspect Mr. Arnold was adequately trained to distinguish proper from improper behavior in a public place.


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    Many of us have been members for decades. Many of us have left or barely attend due to the abuse of Wynne (especially Wynne), Canavan, Jones, Ryken (yes Ryken!), Goligher, etc.

    The elders and other leadership are all men. They have no clear way provided to make complaints. “Talk to your elder” … why? So he can ignore what I say, or judge me? They don’t seem to file any official records of complaints. It’s like a black hole. There is no anonymous hotline. Tenth seems set up for abuse and scandal. The system is political. The person I report to may not want to do anything because their own neck is on the line. Their income is on the line. Or, if they’re a man and I’m a woman, or if they’re a woman who is themselves in an abusive dynamic, they may scoff at me, tell me that I should get over it and stop being dramatic.

    Yet women are the “weaker sex”. Eve bit the apple, it’s all her fault. So women are not qualified for leadership, they say. Are women also not qualified to care for others and hold the men accountable? Is this truly biblical? Were women sitting on their hands’ in Jesus’s ministry? What about after Jesus left us, were women also sitting there in the corner with needle and thread in hand?

    Tenth has a history of deliberately silencing women and keeping them out of positions of influence. Friend posted about the change in denomination to keep women out.

    Quotidian says ‘we ought to show compassion.” Does Quotidian not understand the years of abuse people have suffered because all leadership is turning a blind eye? Hmm, should Christ have been more compassionate rather than calling the Pharisees “Sons of the Devil”? Or should he not have folded his hand and kept quiet instead of throwing down those money changers tables? Maybe he was not compassionate enough? Come now!

    I appreciate what Broken Hearted said. People are being torn apart. One person has already done irreversible damage to their body because of what Wynne did to them. Couples have started out their marriage scarred because of Wynne. Young people have gone on to be suicidal, have left the church, lost faith, been isolated, have gone on to be compromised and hurt throughout their lives. Some families have completely fallen apart. More than one affected family has experience divorce.

    This is the only outlet for some of us. Yes, we’re bitter. And we’re angry. And we’re tired.

    What about compassion and love for us? Hmm??


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    Quotidian: We are not to even “talk about the things that are done in darkness.”

    Jesus said “There is nothing covered up which is not going to be exposed nor anything private which will not be made public. The things I tell you in the dark you must say in the daylight, and the things you hear in your private ear you must proclaim from the house-tops.” (Matthew 10:27 Phillips)

    Praise God for Christian watchblogs which love the Body of Christ enough to inform and warn them of wayward ministers and ministries. They proclaim from “house-tops” in cyberspace as watchmen on the wall … often holding folks accountable to the greater church if church elders won’t. We’re in this thing together … it shouldn’t be too much to ask for church leaders to walk pure and holy lives. Be sure … we grieve for the good people at Tenth who have been impacted by this news … many who comment here regularly have endured confusion and disillusionment when their pastors failed (some have been victims of their abuse).


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    Broken Hearted: This is not abstract for me, this situation, the corruption of leadership of this church, the lies and abuse of these men is tearing my life and my family apart, and I am struggling to see any bright future or hope from God that it will be made right.

    I prayed for you just now … that Jesus would make it right for you and your family … that you will see His hand in your life in the days ahead. He loves you.


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    Confused,

    the closest thing Tenth has to a woman in a leadership position is the other person named in the citation


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    dee: This comment made me smile. I am seeing some folks who are so upset that their pastor has resigned they hope to prove it was nothing. It was just a simple misunderstanding by the police. Then he can come back, and their paradigm will stay in place.

    see you can’t even understand what I’m saying. Of course its not “nothing” and i’d leave the church if LG somehow comes back. You can’t hear real people who know 200% more about the situation tell you anything that doesn’t fit your narrative. You decide things by tropes and paradigms and not first hand knowledge.


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    Re-member Me: first hand knowledge

    You have rejected the firsthand knowledge of the arresting officer.


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    California Dreamin’ here at Muff Manor…


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    Re-Member Me,

    Since you responded to me, I will respond specifically to you… Is the Grace report out of line/got it wrong??


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    dee: Then he can come back, and their paradigm will stay in place.

    And don’t forget the flow of them greenbacks!


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    Ira: Goligher told the elders that he was “just having a picnic” – were they having a picnic naked? Was he blindfolded and eating her vagina by accident? “Oops, I thought that was my sandwich?” It is bizarre.

    I dare say he was thinking of the Clinton defence “I did NOT have sex with that woman”! Probably something untoward happening under a blanket, but the charge was actual sexual misconduct (not the “mistaken appearance” of sexual misconduct) – and they pled guilty. I think the church should have asked him to demonstrate what was happening via a re-enactment, then get Elzey to do the same (without being able to witness what LG did) and see if they match – and really could appear guilty, but be innocent. What that could be?… the mind boggles!


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    Jeffrey Chalmers,

    I see no reason to think it is. It’s also detailed and specific about what exactly happened.


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    Trigger warning for sadistic sexual/physical abuse from GRACE report:

    While the leadership of Tenth has largely turned over since 2001, evidence indicates
    Tenth’s consistent knowledge of Paul Jones’ actions through admissions by Jones which
    fused corporal punishment with nudity, constituting common law articulations of the criminal act of sexual battery. While Tenth has acknowledged that they now understand
    the behavior to constitute sexual battery, evidence was presented that Tenth’s first report to law enforcement about Paul Jones’ behavior happened 13 years after initial
    knowledge.Further, despite consistent knowledge of the conduct, Tenth determined at
    various stages that the conduct “did not press alarm bells” to the extent that Jones’
    employment was retained for 16 years after allegations first surfaced.”

    pp 101-102 of the GRACE report. (Then after it became clear to leadership that he needed to go, they let him resign after the Christmas music programs were over.)

    Didn’t ring alarm bells! Didn’t make them sick at their stomach?

    It appears that this is the same pattern & dynamics of spiritual/emotional/sexual/physical abuse that Jonathan Fletcher and John Smyth perpetrated. Those were also covered up for years.

    For those who may be reading who were victims of Jones, there is a book written in England called Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse: Creating Healthy Christian Cultures. The foreword is by one of their victims. There is also quite a bit online about the abuse those men perpetrated. I’m sharing because it can be helpful to read the accounts of others who had similar experiences.


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    R: the abuse of Wynne (especially Wynne), Canavan, Jones, Ryken (yes Ryken!), Goligher, etc.

    Good Lord! What is wrong with this place?!!


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    Quotidian: We are not to even “talk about the things that are done in darkness.”

    It is incredibly upsetting to people in a congregation to find that those they trusted and looked to for leadership are not the men they thought them to be and they did not practice what they preached. It’s disorienting. Your upset is understandable.

    But the responsibility for your upset is on the shoulders of the leaders who betrayed their calling, not on those exposing the leaders. Your leaders could have spared you by not committing the sins in the first place or by confessing their sins so there is no confusion. Since that did not happen, other leaders could have spared you by rebuking the sins deserving of public rebuke. They could have prioritized protecting the congregation from wolves. If any of these things had happened, you would not be in the place you are now. Hopefully, some of them will repent. I was once in a church where the sexual sin of the founding pastor was revealed when the victim sued years later. The elders immediately relieved him of duties. The congregation was very upset, but they were told the truth. The church leaders even issued a truthful press release. Some people actually joined the church after seeing the transparency. The leader confessed and was was restored to fellowship, but not to leadership. The vast majority of people were able to move forward with trust in the elders because of the forthright confession by the pastor who had sinned and the transparency of the elders.

    Take a look at the context of the snippet you quoted: from Eph.5
    11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret. 13 But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible…

    There is an actual command to expose the deeds done in darkness by shining light on it. That is what law enforcement, GRACE, and watchdog sites do. It is what elders are charged to do. Otherwise, wolves will be given safe haven and able to continue exploiting sheep.

    Not all sins are equal in weight. (John 19:11) Not all sins get the same treatment. Teachers and elders are judged more strictly. Certain sins of elders are to be rebuked publicly. (Tim 5:20, Gal. 2:11-13) To the extent that the session has not followed that command, they have also sinned. Certain sins of elders disqualify them from being elders.

    I do understand it’s hard when all this is new news to you, but think of what it was like for the many victims at your church when they were first harmed by a leader, then failed by those who were supposed to protect them. I hope you will direct your compassion to the multiple victims at least as much as to the perpetrators. This might be easier if you read the actual GRACE report. Decades later, a different type of issue came to light and there was a lack of transparency which damaged the church.


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    Barbara Asabre, I am saddened and disheartened by this news. I was a member of Tenth and have been following Liam’s sermons for about 10 years. I stopped attending through COVID and then moved to another state but still listened to his sermons. He is truly gifted–a wonderful preacher and teacher. I don’t know what to make of all this–it doesn’t fit. I’m very upset. I don’t want to believe this is true. And I too am praying for Liam, Christine, and the church of Christ.


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    Quotidian,

    Eyewitness: Decades later, a different type of issue came to light and there was a lack of transparency which damaged the church.

    Sorry. I didn’t finish the final thought. Decades later a different kind of issue came to light in the same church, and there was not the same level of transparency. That lack of transparency caused the same kind of confusion that your church is experiencing now.


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    Nancy2(aka Kevlar):
    it’s kind of like playing a game of cards, and drawing these 3 cards as explanation for everything in the state of play.
    elastigirl,

    Yeah.And it seems to me to be a stacked deck with marked cards.I checked those verses Bob M used in both the KJV and NIV Bible versions.The words in his quotes don’t have quite the same meaning.

    ***John 16:8-“And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:”
    ***Paul’s letter to the church at Philippi: Philippians1:6-“ being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

    Reprove and convict are both acceptable translations. I can read greek.
    Phil 1:6 makes the point in any translation. God is the one who is carrying on the good work. It is he that originates all good. It’s a simple truth, not a proof texting gone wild truth. God works to move his true children toward growth, the image of Christ (Romans 8:29).

    I’m not so sure what other ultimate authority you would use to make a decision as to whether or not someone is truly a child of God? Help me out here.

    And I quote single verses for space sake. If I try and quote longer passages absolutely no one will read.


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    Re-member Me,

    That is good to know. I am thinking about writing a post on the findings of that GRACE report.


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    Ira: Goligher told the elders that he was “just having a picnic” –

    And the leaders and followers bought this? Good night! No wonder there are predators and all sorts of weirdos in the pulpits of today. Imagine what one could get away with in a church like that…


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    Eyewitness,

    Great comment! A concise presentation on the way this should have been handled. It’s hard to argue with Scripture (but some will). The sacred offices of pastor and elder are to be taken more seriously. If a church doesn’t hold church leaders accountable, the greater Body of Christ must step in to stop the work of the enemy and protect the precious name of Christ. Wolves in shepherd’s clothing must never be given safe haven.


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    dee: And the leaders and followers bought this? Good night! No wonder there are predators and all sorts of weirdos in the pulpits of today. Imagine what one could get away with in a church like that…

    They reported that this is what he said when they questioned him. Then they said that they can see that he pled guilty to the ticketed charge.


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    Re-member me,

    Re-Member Me,
    You makes ALL good points. Saying bravo to all your posts on this LG matter.


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    dee,

    Dee,
    Given that the Grace Report is linked above and that is well done, clear, and detailed, I think the way of wisdom is to just encourage people to read it for themselves. We are adult English speakers of average intelligence. We can understand it as written.


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    To further clarify, though I think this was briefly addressed by another commenter above, the congregational vote to accept Goligher’s resignation is not any special effort on Tenth’s part to keep Goligher on or minimize the situation. They’re just following the procedures that are in place for the resignation of any minister in the PCA. I’m not sure of the official reason behind it other than as a formality since the congregation must meet to vote to call the minister. But personally I think it offers a sort of closure for the congregation to have the opportunity to publicly affirm the dissolution of the relationship. I hope it will be a healing step.

    “When any minister shall tender the resignation of his pastoral charge
    to his Presbytery, the Presbytery shall cite the church to appear by its
    commissioners, to show cause why the Presbytery should or should not accept
    the resignation. If the church fails to appear, or if its reasons for retaining its
    pastor be deemed insufficient, his resignation shall be accepted and the
    pastoral relation dissolved.
    If any church desires to be relieved of its pastor, a similar procedure
    shall be observed. But whether the minister or the church initiates proceedings
    for a dissolution of the relation, there shall always be a meeting of the
    congregation called and conducted in the same manner as the call of the pastor.
    In any case, the minister must not physically leave the field until the Presbytery
    or its commission empowered to handle uncontested requests for dissolution
    has dissolved the relation.”


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    Broken Hearted: This is not abstract for me, this situation, the corruption of leadership of this church, the lies and abuse of these men is tearing my life and my family apart, and I am struggling to see any bright future or hope from God that it will be made right.

    My heart goes out to you, Broken Hearted. Offering you cyber hugs if you want them.


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    Ira: The “arresting officer” was CHIEF park ranger, Benjamin Arnold. He is still there. I have spoken to him personally. It sounds like he doesn’t remember the incident 9 years ago, and they incinerated the detailed records since they were more than 6 years old.

    Thank you for this, Ira! You are a gem!


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    R,

    Dear R, I believe you. I empathise with you. What you and so many others have suffered due to the culture at Tenth is horrendous. The perps and their allies have not yet suffered as much as they deserve to suffer. May God bring true Justice and vindicate the oppressed!

    When a church is a nest of vipers, dangers abound. So many people bleed. Many prideful people and perpetrators throng there, because it’s a honey pot for them. Many who want to remain in their cognitive dissonance thrash around and try to ‘do good’…but do more harm than good (to both themselves and to others).

    I often think of Revelation 6:9-11 — the souls crying under the altar.
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev+6%3A9-11&version=NMB


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    Re-member Me: see you can’t even understand what I’m saying. Of course its not “nothing” and i’d leave the church if LG somehow comes back. You can’t hear real people who know 200% more about the situation tell you anything that doesn’t fit your narrative. You decide things by tropes and paradigms and not first hand knowledge.

    Re member Me, I’m glad you would leave the church if LG came back.


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    Here is a public letter to the church that has gone out to all members. It is from an elder I respect, the Clerk of Session.

    “In recent weeks our church has received shocking and concerning news. The week before Thanksgiving, allegations were brought against Associate Minister Carroll Wynne in a report from GRACE, an organization hired by Tenth to investigate possible abuse in our church. Pastor Wynne has been put on administrative leave pending an investigation of the Philadelphia Presbytery. Then on December 1, Dr. Liam Goligher resigned as senior minister of Tenth. This was following reports of a citation of personal conduct dating back to 2014, which are a matter of public record, though unknown to the Session of Tenth until the last week of November.

    This news has hit us very hard as a congregation, causing confusion, sadness, anger, fear, and a host of unanswered questions. What the future holds for us is uncertain, though our Lord’s plan for us is for our good and his glory. We are distressed but not destroyed. We hear reports of sin, and we consider our own lives and our account before God. We know that the hard providence we face is a blot on the witness of Tenth’s testimony to the holiness of Christ’s Kingdom and raises all kinds of challenges to our desire to care for one another and lift each other up as members of Christ’s suffering body.

    When the people of God are distressed, they mourn, lament, and fast. Esther called on the Jews to fast when they were in great danger from their enemies (Esther 4:16). The prophet Joel declared that the Lord calls us to show our devotion and dependence by fasting (Joel 2:12-13). Nehemiah was moved to fast by reports of the low state of the holy city of Jerusalem (Nehemiah 1:3-4). Jesus instructs us to fast, but to do so sincerely without hypocrisy to be seen by others (Matthew 6:16).

    The Session of Tenth Church voted unanimously to call for the congregation to fast on the days of Saturday, December 23; Wednesday, December 27; and Saturday, December 30. Each of these days will also end with gatherings at the church for worship: December 23 is still our early Lessons and Carols service at 7:30 PM. On December 27 and 30, there will be meetings at the church from 7-8 PM for the congregation to gather in corporate prayer. Please fast on these days—either partially or fully—and attend these meetings as you are able. If you have a medical reason to not fast, please follow your medical advice. Remember to stay hydrated when fasting.

    Fasting is a way of embodying our devotion to God and affirm that his holiness and glory is far above our earthly and bodily appetites. We depend on his Word, and not on bread alone. When we feel hungry during the day, feel those promptings as promptings to pray. May the Lord richly bless us with his grace at this distressing time in the life of Tenth Church.”


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    dee, I am glad to know that you may highlight the GRACE report – and predatorial and innapropriate behavior in there, especially from Wynne, who was still on staff at the time of its’ release.

    It was been distressing to me that Wynne’s actions have been downplayed because of the big shock of Goligher – of his resigning and the discovery of scandal of the 2014 citation.

    I wonder if this info about the citation was released by Anglican Report because they felt it was finally the right time, or was it simply coincidence the report was dug up at the same time after GRACE report came out?

    I do think more will be found out about Wynne if more digging is done, and if people feel safe to make anonymous reports. It would be helpful if support was given to people who may be really traumatized by what he did to them, and having a very hard time putting it into words. It is re-traumatizing for them. I know many young people who left the church because of his actions and hehavior towards them.


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    R,

    Thank you for making this available to TWW. As I read the elder’s letter, I was reminded of 2 Chronicles 7:14 outlining conditions for God’s healing to flow through His people. The good people at Tenth are broken-hearted, confused, disillusioned. The words from this verse provide them hope. The “THEN Will I” of God can be activated “IF My People.”


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    Friend 2: I can also confirm that the GRACE report online is a copy of the original.

    I also agree that Wynne’s decades of abuse is being dwarfed by the Goligher scandal. I wish the Goligher scandal had not come out so quickly after the GRACE Report. I am worried that Wynne will not get voted out or investigated. What he has done has wreaked so much havoc in so many lives. Many of us have left. Many of us are young. Many of us have not reported what he has done to us. We are hurting. He is a sick, sick man. And the rot is deep. They have no place for us to anonymously report. Many are concerned about reporting, getting re-traumitized, and having to see him again and again, as happened with Pat Canavan. And what if the Presbytery is sick too? What if they are partially at the root of the rot?

    I am so sorry to hear this! I wish I could help you. I will pray for you because God knows who you are. Please do not be afraid to report Carroll. He can’t be allowed to get away with this abuse.
    What if the Philadelphia Presbytery is not courageous like the Elders at Tenth church were not courageous when it came to Carroll Wynne and his abuse of members? It’s a very real and serious question. The leadership of Tenth church protects their “reputation “ before protecting the members of the congregation. At least Liam had the decency to resign. Carroll is going kicking and screaming because of his pride and arrogance. If Carroll is not removed I would run fast from any church that belongs to the Philadelphia Presbytery.


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    R: Fasting is a way of embodying our devotion to God and affirm that his holiness and glory is far above our earthly and bodily appetites.

    God is telling me to have a sandwich….


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    Ira: Goligher told the elders that he was “just having a picnic” – were they having a picnic naked? Was he blindfolded and eating her vagina by accident? “Oops, I thought that was my sandwich?” It is bizarre.

    I had a witty statement but this just….what do you say?

    I sometimes wonder if I ever knew this faith at all….


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    Bob M,

    “I’m not so sure what other ultimate authority you would use to make a decision as to whether or not someone is truly a child of God? Help me out here.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++

    can’t fathom why anyone would have an interest or need to make such a decision.


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    R: Fasting is a way of embodying our devotion to God and affirm that his holiness and glory is far above our earthly and bodily appetites.

    Maybe just expose and expel the leaders who are criminally living for their bodily desires. No amount of congregational fasting will erase the obvious or make it go away.

    Strange how when the leadership is criminal, the constituency is told to buckle down.

    The constituents aren’t the problem, unless they keep supporting criminal leaders.

    Doesn’t take fasting to figure this out.

    These bully leaders are always the same: Everyone else must submit, fast, forgive, be silent, confess, humble themselves, get on their knees, turn a blind eye, cover up, EXCEPT the criminal leader who IS the problem.


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    Ava Aaronson: These bully leaders are always the same: Everyone else must submit, fast, forgive, be silent, confess, humble themselves, get on their knees, turn a blind eye, cover up, EXCEPT the criminal leader who IS the problem.

    more people speaking without being there and understanding the sense of the majority of the congregation and leadership, assuming everything is “always the same”

    OF COURSE criminal leadership should be and is, after proper process, being expelled


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    Eyewitness: corporal punishment with nudity

    Shades of Ball and Smyth. Did they over-egg their “we’re not like that now” wishful thinking pudding when calling LG and the others listed? The antidote to ills is not to position oneself as less so (Godel’s theorem; equal and opposite reaction a.k.a material dialectic; “don’t mention the war” as John Cleese put it). The antidote is to introduce a totally fresh principle. Did LG lead Grudem and Virgo astray? Did Warnock his 2007 interviewer notice?


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    If I were a bit more cynical, I would hear this message from the unanimous Session: “I didn’t take your food. You chose to go hungry.”


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    Ava Aaronson: Maybe just expose and expel the leaders who are criminally living for their bodily desires. No amount of congregational fasting will erase the obvious or make it go away.

    Strange how when the leadership is criminal, the constituency is told to buckle down.

    These bully leaders are always the same: Everyone else must submit, fast, forgive, be silent, confess, humble themselves, get on their knees, turn a blind eye, cover up, EXCEPT the criminal leader who IS the problem.

    Well those who are remaining in the session do not seem to be criminal. They are seemingly brokenhearted and praying for a healthy way forward. From what I can tell, the elders who remain are unpaid or low paid, just regular people trying to do the right thing. And, they are operating with a huge deficit in the church budget.


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    R: Well those who are remaining in the session do not seem to be criminal. They are seemingly brokenhearted and praying for a healthy way forward. From what I can tell, the elders who remain are unpaid or low paid, just regular people trying to do the right thing. And, they are operating with a huge deficit in the church budget.

    These are excellent observations. Many church folks are innocent and good hearted. Unfortunately this can lead them to trust others too much.

    Jesus’ paradoxical words about being wise as serpents but innocent as doves (Matthew 10:16) might be worth pondering. Session members should demand answers and scrutinize all processes and safeguards. What was overlooked, swept under the rug, denied? Did corrupt parties hide misdeeds behind others’ fine reputations?

    Simply saying “I didn’t know” or “I don’t do such things” will not suffice. The innocent elders should ask “Was I used?” and “How was I used?”


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    elastigirl:
    Bob M,

    “I’m not so sure what other ultimate authority you would use to make a decision as to whether or not someone is truly a child of God? Help me out here.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++

    can’t fathom why anyone would have an interest or need to make such a decision.

    The man in question is the lead pastor of a church. I want to know if he is a genuine believer, don’t you? Oh yeah, you don’t believe that the church is a valid concept for people to be a part of.


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    Bob M: I want to know if he is a genuine believer, don’t you? Oh yeah, you don’t believe that the church is a valid concept for people to be a part of.

    I’m not elastigirl, but your comments caught my attention.

    Here’s the thing. Nobody can truly know who is a genuine believer, or whether someone will later repent and be forgiven. You can’t take a verse and apply it to someone’s thoughts like litmus paper or a scarlet A.

    What you can do is look at actions. Judge their actions and determine whether they deserve positions of power. That’s where some verses can come in.

    Your focus on “genuine believers” can amount to mind reading and lead to endless recycling of people who do awful things: “I wasn’t truly a Christian when I robbed that bank, but now I am!” [fast forward five years] “I wasn’t truly a Christian when I abandoned my family, but buy my book about moving on!”


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    FYI just a few years ago UK vicar Jonathan Fletcher’s career-long abuse of young men was finally exposed. He was a bully, controlling and secretive, but highly respected and this allowed the abuse to go undiscovered for decades. In the aftermath, Rev Richard Coekin produced 5 Biblical principles for Servant-hearted Leadership. They seem highly appropriate to me –

    (a) Pastors must serve – not exploit;
    (b) Pastors must be gentle – not dominating;
    (c) Pastors must apply God’s word – not their own opinions;
    (d) Pastors must be respected – not protected;
    (e) Pastors must be assessed – not unaccountable.

    All churches, Tenth included, would do well to embrace them.


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    Bob M: The man in question is the lead pastor of a church. I want to know if he is a genuine believer, don’t you?

    Not my call, but I will say, based on his actions, he shouldn’t lead anything.


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    Friend: These are excellent observations. Many church folks are innocent and good hearted. Unfortunately this can lead them to trust others too much.

    Jesus’ paradoxical words about being wise as serpents but innocent as doves (Matthew 10:16) might be worth pondering. Session members should demand answers and scrutinize all processes and safeguards. What was overlooked, swept under the rug, denied? Did corrupt parties hide misdeeds behind others’ fine reputations?

    Simply saying “I didn’t know” or “I don’t do such things” will not suffice. The innocent elders should ask “Was I used?” and “How was I used?”

    I appreciated your comment and I hope that this reaches some of them.


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    Confused,

    Love this comment.


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    Confused,

    How much THEOLOGY is “oriented toward institutional image management and controlling the narrative [for] institutional protection” (Christa Brown’s phrases)? Pecking order theology is NOT biblical!


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    Friend,

    Such a shame your elbow got jogged (by the elbow joggers out in force). Where the fruits of spiritual gifts get sabotaged.


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    Quotidian,

    It engulfed more than LG and Mrs E. And went back before 2014. If you ask me LG was foolish to walk into it. Why did his contract at Duke Street come to an end? Don’t you deplore the theology that creates this ruination? How many people in UK, and their theology, are you covering for?


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    Kim,

    Thank you for sharing your thoughts.


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    Michael in UK: Why did his contract at Duke Street come to an end?

    He was effectively headhunted by Tenth – he had preached there as a visitor. I believe many at DS were sad to see him go.


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    Maybe it could be argued that the pastor is European, and in Europe they care less about affairs and cheating and they have less emotional impact. However here, the USA has Puritanical roots and sex scandals are hot gossip and not looked well upon. There could be snide remarks if it was an office, but a church pastor and deacon ? I attend 10th both in person and online, though am not a member, and feel insulted and misled. As for the deacon, the word for her in the US is home-wrecker, and maybe also career wrecker, family wrecker, retirement wrecker, etc. No doubt she confided how unhappy she was in her marriage, maybe it was infatuation that turned into lust. Anyway, she got her man, and ruined him. I am sorry for the families involved.


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    Broken Hearted:

    P.S.This is not abstract for me, this situation, the corruption of leadership of this church, the lies and abuse of these men is tearing my life and my family apart, and I am struggling to see any bright future or hope from God that it will be made right.

    As a former member of Tenth, one who saw and experienced this abuse. My heart goes out to you. I would love to show you support and hear your story if that would ever be helpful.


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    R: Well those who are remaining in the session do not seem to be criminal. They are seemingly brokenhearted and praying for a healthy way forward. From what I can tell, the elders who remain are unpaid or low paid, just regular people trying to do the right thing. And, they are operating with a huge deficit in the church budget.

    Session may or may not be criminally liable, but they are absolutely morally culpable. My husband and I met with multiple elders over the past two years to express our concerns about Liam and about Session. We didn’t know all the details, but we knew something was very wrong. We begged for honesty and transparency. We knew things were being covered up. And we were committed to being there to minister and to help bring about change … right up to when we were kicked out and excommunicated. (It seems to happen to those of us who push too far.)

    I would urge Tenth call for the removal of Session. Clean house and start fresh. Otherwise, nothing will change!!


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    Julie: the pastor is European, and in Europe they care less about affairs and cheating and they have less emotional impact. However here, the USA has Puritanical roots … As for the deacon, the word for her in the US is home-wrecker … Anyway, she got her man, and ruined him.

    You were indeed misled, and you are within your rights to feel insulted. Still, I’m surprised to see these generalizations. This crisis calls for careful analysis, not speculation. It goes deeper and wider than the “European” and the “home-wrecker.”


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    Karen Walton: As a former member of Tenth, one who saw and experienced this abuse. My heart goes out to you. I would love to show you support and hear your story if that would ever be helpful.

    Thank you for caring. I do know you as we have met before. I would like to talk to you if it can be arranged. I searched for you on social media and sent a message, I hope it was the right account.


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    Karen Walton: My husband and I met with multiple elders over the past two years to express our concerns about Liam and about Session. … we were committed to being there to minister and to help bring about change … right up to when we were kicked out and excommunicated.

    Thank you for sharing your experience. Good for you, for trying. Your story shows that the problem goes beyond one man failing to report one adult encounter in a park.


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    Karen Walton: Session may or may not be criminally liable, but they are absolutely morally culpable. My husband and I met with multiple elders over the past two years to express our concerns about Liam and about Session. We didn’t know all the details, but we knew something was very wrong. We begged for honesty and transparency. We knew things were being covered up. And we were committed to being there to minister and to help bring about change … right up to when we were kicked out and excommunicated. (It seems to happen to those of us who push too far.)

    I would urge Tenth call for the removal of Session. Clean house and start fresh. Otherwise, nothing will change!!

    If you would like me to write a post about your concerns, send an email to dee@thewartburgwatch.com. In the meantime, you were quite perceptive. Well done.


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    Julie,

    The homewreckers involved both parties. Was there any coercion involved?


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    R:

    This is the only outlet for some of us. Yes, we’re bitter. And we’re angry. And we’re tired.

    What about compassion and love for us? Hmm??

    Yes, this! So tired!!


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    Godith:
    As for a background check. I think LG came to 10th in 2011. The arrest was after that. Maybe yearly checks are needed to be sure the elder, pastor, or officer remains “blameless.”


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    Karen Walton: Session may or may not be criminally liable, but they are absolutely morally culpable. My husband and I met with multiple elders over the past two years to express our concerns about Liam and about Session. We didn’t know all the details, but we knew something was very wrong. We begged for honesty and transparency. We knew things were being covered up. And we were committed to being there to minister and to help bring about change … right up to when we were kicked out and excommunicated. (It seems to happen to those of us who push too far.)

    I would urge Tenth call for the removal of Session. Clean house and start fresh. Otherwise, nothing will change!!

    Well said Karen Walton!

    As well as removing all current Session, I also suggest that none of the men on that Session be allowed to preach for a long long time. And, if any of those men want to preach again, they need to have been demonstrating deep repentance and consistent reformation over a long time. That includes making full and detailed apologies and REPARATIONS to every person who has been hurt and betrayed by their leadership.


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    Bob M,

    “The man in question is the lead pastor of a church. I want to know if he is a genuine believer, don’t you? Oh yeah, you don’t believe that the church is a valid concept for people to be a part of”
    +++++++++++++++++

    oodles of people in and out of the church institution are believers.

    if “genuine believer” means “a believey believer”, well, who can say.

    believers see things in so many different ways. all of which can be cobbled together as biblical in one way or another. makes ‘biblical’ the silliest word around.

    I think belief in God has different qualities and contours. it’s unreasonable & obnoxious to expect everyone’s belief to be uniform. we can agree on a few basic things and that’s enough.

    hall monitors are a drag. belief hall monitors are insuffferable.

    what matters most is one’s actions, integrity, a heart of kindness & compassion,… (being plain-spoken is not incompatible)


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    Barbara Roberts,

    Men on session don’t preach. They’re laymen, technically


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    Re-member me,

    So its the Elders that need to go? They’d be the ones who covered things up and hid the truth from session?

    Ironically the day after LG and SE were caught out, the sermon (by Jerry Mc Farland) was “How is your Reputation?”. Maybe after that sermon they felt they daren’t confess!


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    Confused: So its the Elders that need to go? They’d be the ones who covered things up and hid the truth from session?

    The elders ARE the Session, according to the church website:

    https://www.tenth.org/about/session


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    Karen Walton: express our concerns about Liam and about Session. We didn’t know all the details, but we knew something was very wrong.

    Since the sexual sin wasn’t known about then, may I enquire what was the concern about Liam? I had always thought he was well thought of at Tenth so this is all news to me.


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    Re-member me: Men on session don’t preach. They’re laymen, technically

    Ok. But isn’t it also try that all pastors are automatically deemed to be members of Session too?

    That’s how it’s done in the Australian PCA. I would have thought it would be the same in the United States PCA. The two denominations consider each other very close in doctrines and practices.


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    Confused: Ironically the day after LG and SE were caught out, the sermon (by Jerry Mc Farland) was “How is your Reputation?”.

    Irony indeed!


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    https://www.tenth.org/about/session

    The Session is composed of Teaching Elders and Ruling Elders. All elders are each equally an elder and each gets one vote. Teaching Elders are ministers or pastors called to teach, preach, and administer the sacraments. Ruling Elders are undershepherds called to administer the government of the church and meet the spiritual needs of members in their parish.”


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    Paul Jones sued Tenth for putting out info to the congregation about his actions, and Jones won, because they put the info out way past the statute of limitations (18 months) for any crime to be investigated. The only thing that would have an extended statue of limtations is child abuse against a minor, which Jones was not accused of.


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    Confused: Since the sexual sin wasn’t known about then, may I enquire what was the concern about Liam? I had always thought he was well thought of at Tenth so this is all news to me.

    You can go check out Karen’s comment in the other thread about Tenth. She did not say exact incidents she and husband complained of re: Goligher. Maybe she would talk about that more here? Karen …? We also don’t know what reason they gave her for excommunicating her & husband (and didn’t know she was excommunicated till seeing her comment some days ago). It it all very startling to hear of.


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    R:
    https://www.tenth.org/about/session

    The Session is composed of Teaching Elders and Ruling Elders. All elders are each equally an elder and each gets one vote. Teaching Elders are ministers or pastors called to teach, preach, and administer the sacraments. Ruling Elders are undershepherds called to administer the government of the church and meet the spiritual needs of members in their parish.”

    Thanks R.


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    R: You can go check out Karen’s comment in the other thread about Tenth.

    Here’s a link to that comment by Karen Walters at TWW’s other post about Tenth:
    https://thewartburgwatch.com/2023/12/06/what-in-the-world-happened-to-pastor-liam-goligher-pastor-carroll-wynne-and-others-at-tenth-presbyterian-church/#comment-483531


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    Let me start with a full disclosure: My husband, myself, and one child were excommunicated after said child came out as transgender. My husband and I have supported our child and refused to publicly condemn her. Had we been parents grieving our wayward child, we would have been fine and our child would have been condemned alone. We have chosen to walk this road with our child and therefore received the same penalty she did. We were told that not only were we removed from Tenth Church and from the PCA, but that any church that welcomed and affirmed us was not a true church. We were therefore, according to them, no longer a part of the body of Christ.

    This is why we officially left Tenth, but it was not what had concerned us about Session and LG.


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    Our concerns about Liam were two-fold:

    1. When Liam first came to the church we really appreciated his sermons. They were tender and practical. Our children liked the fact that they could understand his preaching. As time passed, however, his sermons became increasingly intellectual and hard to understand. We came to feel that Liam was no longer preaching to our church but felt we were being subjected to the theological debates he had online. There was increasingly an us-vs-them mentality in which we heard other believers and churches being mocked or degraded for having different theological perspectives. This, obviously, is somewhat a matter of opinion and preference. But we came to feel we were no longer being fed, no longer being shown God’s love and tenderness. God became an intellectual exercise that most of us weren’t really capable of understanding.

    In expressing these concerns to various elders we wondered aloud if there was some precipitating factor to account for this change. Was L burnt out, depressed, discouraged from all the difficulties Tenth was experiencing. What was going on?


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    2. We were concerned about how Liam treated people. He could be kind and charming at times but volatile and abrasive at other times. We primarily saw this in the treatment of a dear friend. I cannot go into detail because it is her story not mine, but I saw L berate and accuse my friend, make every difficulty about her rather than acknowledging his part in escalating the situation. He spoke ill of her to others, including to her husband. At least one accusation that had been made against her was proved entirely false, but the harassment was unchanged. L insisted that because he was the senior minister, he knew better than anyone else.

    I was not personally present in any of these conversations, but out of concern for my friend I spoke to several elders about the things I had heard. These elders agreed that Liam could be volatile and was easily angered. They mentioned trying to keep him out of personal issues as he tended to escalate matters. They all expressed at least some degree of agreement with my concerns, but expressed a helplessness to act since the senior minister is not under the authority of Session. One elder expressed his opinion that L seemed, to him, to be sufficiently repentant and that my friend should move on. When my friend had been harassed to the point that she and her family left the church (after 30 years) L gave the announcement of their departure to the congregation and gave as a reason that “God was leading them elsewhere”.

    My concern with Session is that at least some of them were aware of these issues. And yet they failed to hold L accountable. They failed to pursue the matter by speaking directly with my friend. Failed to provide support for people who had served the church for decades. Failed to protect the reputation of my friend or provide any acknowledgement of or apology for her pain and suffering.

    In broad strokes these two issues express my concerns about Liam. I am posting this under my own name because I stand by what I have said. I have said it to at least five elders and have spoken about it to Liam as well. I am no longer at Tenth church, but I loved and served that church for years. I felt at the time there was a lack of transparency and honesty. There was an abdication of responsibility to act in a way that would protect the members of the church. There was a suppression of truth to maintain the appearance of good. I had no idea how deep these issues went, but when I read the GRACE report, I was grieved but not surprised. Everything in the report is consistent with what I observed. The report just failed to include the full extent of the problem.


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    Karen Walton,

    Wow. I really value and appreciate your honesty, Karen. Thankyou for sharing such personal details. I hope others can benefit from your disclosure and not feel so alone, knowing they were not the only ones being treated this way.

    “Christians” can be so cruel, and so lacking in wisdom and understanding. God loves us passionately, just as we are (sinners), and any church that doesn’t affirm that doesn’t know God. He made it abundantly clear that He chooses who to me merciful to, not us, we simply don’t get a say (Ex 33:19). And we’re not going to like the extent of his mercy (e.g. Jesus’ parable of the workers all being paid the same wage).

    Your child needs support and nurturing. She has a difficult path ahead. However, I would caution against irreversible changes until she is older – there are horror stories of kids who now regret surgery and now see it was just a phase they were going through. (If the trans movement had been around when I was growing up, I would have been convinced I was supposed to be a boy. In my dreams I was always male. But when I got into my 20s I discovered benefits in being a woman, and began to love being one). Hormones really mess with your head. You are correct to stand with your child and help them.


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    Karen Walton: These elders agreed that Liam could be volatile and was easily angered. They mentioned trying to keep him out of personal issues as he tended to escalate matters. They all expressed at least some degree of agreement with my concerns, but expressed a helplessness to act since the senior minister is not under the authority of Session. One elder expressed his opinion that L seemed, to him, to be sufficiently repentant and that my friend should move on. When my friend had been harassed to the point that she and her family left the church (after 30 years) L gave the announcement of their departure to the congregation and gave as a reason that “God was leading them elsewhere”.

    The elders were afraid of the senior pastor—not good for a church. To whom does a PCA senior pastor answer, if not the Session?

    The churches I have attended do not announce departures, unless the person is currently serving in a very prominent role (a pastor, music minister, maybe the top volunteer in the group of lay leaders).


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    Friend: The elders were afraid of the senior pastor—not good for a church. To whom does a PCA senior pastor answer, if not the Session?

    The churches I have attended do not announce departures, unless the person is currently serving in a very prominent role (a pastor, music minister, maybe the top volunteer in the group of lay leaders).

    The senior minister answers to the Presbytery. We were told that the Presbytery would not step in unless Session was united in its concerns, which it was not.

    My friend was an employee and her husband was an elder on session. This the announcement.


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    Karen Walton,

    Understood. Thank you for the further information. I appreciate your willingness to share your dismaying story here. I truly hope your family finds peace and acceptance.


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    Karen Walton: My husband and I have supported our child and refused to publicly condemn her.

    Such evil irony that the Session somehow could not discipline unrepentant leaders known to be harming multiple people in Tenth’s congregation but could excommunicate someone trans and the parents who are supporting her, especially in a time in which trans people are so viciously targeted by a significant portion of the culture. Yet, the stomach-turning behavior of Paul Jones when reported didn’t so much as set off “alarm bells.” The double-standards blow the mind.

    A devout elderly grandmother of a trans woman once said to me, “I am trying to understand.” This seems to me to be an appropriate position for a church to take. Many churches seem to reach “clarity” only on issues related to LGBTQ . Somehow they are unable to reach clarity on greed, partiality, status-seeking, arrogance, etc., let alone do what it takes to reach clarity on protecting the congregation from wolves in their midst.

    I know how much allies mean to those being targeted by a wolf in the church, as you were to your friend. So often others back away and leave the ones being targeted alone because they don’t want to draw the ire of the abuser themselves. It is rare for people to speak up against wolves. I am sure you were a great comfort to your friend.

    And since you weren’t willing to back away and brush it under the carpet, you gave the elders an outside nudge to do the right thing, and became a witness. They chose the wrong course of action and now they cannot pretend they didn’t know. Your witness is like a foot in the door that prevents them from fully closing the door and saying they didn’t know and wiggling out of accountability. Perhaps they will still manage to shut the door between themselves and repentance, but you will have done your part.


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    Eyewitness: but could excommunicate someone trans and the parents who are supporting her,

    Explainable by GAWD H&S FAGS and TRANS IS THE NEW FAG.
    A Crusade can do without a god, but cannot do without a Devil.
    “And they’ll know we are Christians by our Hate, by our Hate…”

    Many churches seem to reach “clarity” only on issues related to LGBTQ.

    The term is PELVIC ISSUES.
    But only the OTHER guy’s Pelvic Issues, never our own.


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    Confused: owever, I would caution against irreversible changes until she is older – there are horror stories of kids who now regret surgery and now see it was just a phase they were going through.

    This is the opposite polarity of Trans Derangement Syndrome.
    A form of Munchausen by Proxy that not only infects More-Woke-Than-Thou mothers, but For-the-Cause medical/psychiatric professionals and other Influencers.

    Like the “Contagious Lesbianism” that hit some high schools around Y2K, Trans is the new Trendy and about all you can do is limit the damage while waiting for it to burn out.

    Unfortunately, “the surgery” is a Point of No Return that once done cannot be undone.
    There is a reason that in the UK you must be over 18/legal adult to Transition.


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    Karen Walton,

    I can only imagine how complex your effort has been to support your child during transition.

    Good friends of ours are experiencing this right now, with an adult child about 25 years old. When their child came out to them last year, the parents had plenty of love but no comprehension, no vocabulary. All are learning and adjusting, and finding peace.

    Support from here as you continue to navigate this together.


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    Julie: However here, the USA has Puritanical roots and sex scandals are hot gossip and not looked well upon.

    You make a good point.
    I’ve lived in Europe, and sex there is not that big of a deal.


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    elastigirl,

    Well put elastigirl, and I dare say it would shut-up the snittiest of the snitty.


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    Karen Walton:
    Let me start with a full disclosure: My husband, myself, and one child were excommunicated after said child came out as transgender. My husband and I have supported our child and refused to publicly condemn her. Had we been parents grieving our wayward child, we would have been fine and our child would have been condemned alone. We have chosen to walk this road with our child and therefore received the same penalty she did. We were told that not only were we removed from Tenth Church and from the PCA, but that any church that welcomed and affirmed us was not a true church. We were therefore, according to them, no longer a part of the body of Christ.

    Oh this is heartbreaking. Another commenter said something I resonated with. When young, I persisted in the thought I was supposed to be a boy. I had nothing in common with girls. Part-way into this, I had been abused by a relative, and that further made me want to escape the body and attractiveness I held. As I grew older, I began to settle into my female body. I now embrace myself as a strong woman. I am so glad I did not make any irreversible changes to my body. Being a young person is extremely confusing. Hormones are difficult. The changing body is such a challenge. And social pressures and abuse can make a person feel estranged from their born identiy and gender. AND there are so many hormones and stuff in the water now, so much poision in the food and air, who knows what it is doing to us. I know many people who are consider themselves trans. All of those I know have had some sort of trauma earlier on. There is a thing now happened – many teen girls I know who think they are trans or non-binary seem mostly to be doing it under social pressure. I am very wary of any permanent changes and have seen terrible things happen when people do… it especially worries me that any permanent changes or hormones be taken at a young age. But even those taking hormones in their 50s have had strokes, cancer, osteoperosis. I have been researching all this extensively. It is all difficult.

    I cannot comprehend what it would be like to have a teen of my own come out saying they are trans. I cannot understand what that would feel like to go through with as a teen, either. I know I could not cut them off or force them to go through humiliation alone. I can understand why you would stand by your child / teen.

    I don’t know if you know this, but one of Carroll Wynne’s main identified victims had top surgery and now identifies as trans.


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    R: one of Carroll Wynne’s main identified victims had top surgery and now identifies as trans.

    Wow. Thanks for sharing that info!

    Carroll Wynne has a LOT to answer for. I’m praying imprecatory psalms about him! I’m praying them for Liam Goligher too.


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    “The elders were afraid of the senior pastor—not good for a church.”

    Dear Friend,

    If an elder was “afraid” of the senior pastor, who is the moderator of the session, I find it strange that he’d admit it. If an elder did admit it, then that would disqualify him to be an elder. After all, elders who are intimidated by their peers aren’t equipped to keep their vow to protect the flock. Accordingly, it’s safe to say that no *qualified* elder was afraid of Dr. Goligher.

    I served on Tenth’s session alongside Liam. I never found Liam in his capacity of moderator of session to be anything but kind and deferring. If anything, I thought at times he might not have voiced his opinions strongly enough. In a word, I found Liam to be a gentle moderator, not the least bit contentious, and one who spoke his mind always in a soft voice.


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    We need to have compassion and need to forgive because that is what being a Christian is about. No stocks, no scarlet letters.

    But many people come to 10th because of adultery, abuse, bad marriages, family problems, etc. and it is important to have good pastoral leadership. If he was innocent, he should have brought it to the elders immediately and hired a lawyer. So, he wasn’t innocent. What was he doing anyway in Lancaster with a woman nearly 20 years his junior, by himself anyway? He needed to resign and I hope his male supporters within the church don’t give him some kind of buyout. He did behavior unbecoming to his profession. Just get rid of him.

    10th will find another really good Biblical scholar. It has happened in the past and will in the future, younger person, younger blood, better leader and maybe a better manager. The city will regenerate, and get better. It will happen with time.

    All the comment here are spot on and insightful. I know what you are talking about. God Bless.


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    Julie: 10th will find another really good Biblical scholar. It has happened in the past and will in the future, younger person, younger blood, better leader and maybe a better manager.

    This hurting congregation should proceed slowly, and should seriously consider appointing an interim pastor to give the church a couple of years to adjust, talk and listen, and craft a plan for moving forward. Interim pastor is a time-honored office, and not an easy role.

    At the church I attended as a kid, a very popular pastor left suddenly. An interim was NOT hired. A new pastor arrived within months. The congregation was still angry that the popular guy abandoned them. A group of rabble-rousers badgered the new pastor until he resigned. After he left, the congregation had trouble attracting anyone of goodwill and talent for ten or fifteen years.


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    R: There is a thing now happened – many teen girls I know who think they are trans or non-binary seem mostly to be doing it under social pressure.

    Like something I heard on some comment thread somewhere:
    The Y2K High School Lesbian Epidemic.
    Around that time, Lez got Trendy in the high schools. Almost every high school girl announced they were Lez and Proud of It. They did not hook up Lez or do anything to follow through on their self-outing announcements. After about a year or two (when they aged to where they got interested in boyx), they announced they were Bi, not Lez. But still showed no sign of same-sex action. A year or two after that, the fad was over and said Lez/Bi/Whatevers went back to being straight.

    When you’re in your early teens, most of your bingo balls are still floating in the draw tank. Takes a few years experience “learning to be an adult” before you can really sort things out.

    The difference between the Y2K Lesbian Epidemic and today’s Trans Epidemic is that the former was entirely on the behavior level; the latterwhen “going all the way” has a pretty drastic Point of No Return. (Last moth YouTube’s Sacred Algorithm sent me a lot of “De-transitioning” videos from people who went all the way and then had second thoughts and de-transitioned. So the problem is out there.)

    And like all the bogus claims of Tourettes and MPD/DID on TikTok, this Trend really doesn’t help the predicament of those who actually have Gender Dysphoria. The signal gets lost in all the Social Media noise.


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    Eyewitness: So often others back away and leave the ones being targeted alone because they don’t want to draw the ire of the abuser themselves.

    Just like on the schoolyard.
    Where the third parties suck up to the bully/abuser to get on his good side and not become his next target.


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    Karen Walton: Friend: The elders were afraid of the senior pastor—not good for a church.

    “FEAR will keep the outer systems in line.
    FEAR of this Battle Station.”
    — Grand Moff Tarkin (aboard Death Star), Star Wars


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    Ron DiGiacomo,

    I didn’t suggest that the elders were afraid of Liam. What I would suggest is that because Liam was “kind and deferring” to them, they overlooked and minimized situations on which he was not kind and deferring to others. They were quick to believe the best of Liam (and frankly, each other). They were quick to accept shallow repentance and extend cheap grace, while those outside of the elder circle were hurt.

    When my friend wanted to speak to an elder on Session about how Liam had been treating her, she was shut down. He told her he would not participate in “pastor bashing”. She was not believed.

    I can assure you that there were elders who did not want Liam to be at Tenth any longer. But he would not retire and the Session could not force his resignation without the involvement of Presbytery.

    I honestly doubt there were elders who were afraid of Liam. I think, on the contrary, they thought too highly of him. And any evidence or suggestions to the contrary was dismissed.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy: this Trend really doesn’t help the predicament of those who actually have Gender Dysphoria.

    Way back in the 1970s, there was a trend among teenage boys to be gay.

    Several quietly came out to me. The thing is, they actually were gay. They still are.

    Many other teenage boys alarmed the heck out of their parents by looking vaguely like David Bowie, but that’s not the same as taking the risk to come out. Although we didn’t have social media, we did have highly excitable adults. Some of today’s “noise” is a loud reaction to boys wearing nail polish and so on.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy:

    When you’re in your early teens, most of your bingo balls are still floating in the draw tank. Takes a few years experience “learning to be an adult” before you can really sort things out.

    The difference between the Y2K Lesbian Epidemic and today’s Trans Epidemic is that the former was entirely on the behavior level; the latterwhen “going all the way” has a pretty drastic Point of No Return. (Last moth YouTube’s Sacred Algorithm sent me a lot of “De-transitioning” videos from people who went all the way and then had second thoughts and de-transitioned. So the problem is out there.)

    And like all the bogus claims of Tourettes and MPD/DID on TikTok, this Trend really doesn’t help the predicament of those who actually have Gender Dysphoria. The signal gets lost in all the Social Media noise.

    I read studies that young people have an actual mental disconnect from teenage years until the age of 25 or so. So any major decisions they can’t return from, made in that time, they may really regret after that time. Especially if it has to do with something they were brainwashed into at a young age which involved hormones and body parts.

    I have learned that there is real gender dysphoria but it is very rare and is usually in males. It is real. And it is something that needs discussing.

    I think the whole “craze” is very scary because they tell kids that hormone blocking is reversible (so your organs can grow again after you get off it, and your body can go through puberty at a later age??.. it is actually pushed in schools and hidden from parents, etc etc. Do these kids realize that artificial testosterone is actually a high with many negative long-term affects, and that estrogen is cancer-causing, and that hormones and surgeries cause life-long discomfort, life-long sterility, dependence on pills, severe scarring, even dependence on invasive items daily placed into the body? No, of course not. Most are just trying to feel ok in their strangely changing bodies, and feel ok socially in their peer groups, and do what the new “in” thing is to do.

    Interesting books I have read on the subject:

    Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters – respectful and mindblowing book full of what appeared to my scientific brain to be hard facts and good questions. She brings up that, until recently, gender dysphoria was extremely rare, and mostly from males.

    As Nature Made Him: The Boy Who Was Raised as a Girl – about the boy who was used and abused by John Money to legitimize transitioning and permanently removing organs of young children.


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    Karen Walton,

    Hi Karen,

    I realize you didn’t say that. The person going by “Friend” seems to have interpreted you that way. I was addressing her exact quote from her previous response to you.

    Best wishes,

    Ron


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    Karen Walton:
    Ron DiGiacomo,
    I didn’t suggest that the elders were afraid of Liam. What I would suggest is that because Liam was “kind and deferring” to them, they overlooked and minimized situations on which he was not kind and deferring to others.

    That also suggests a Sociopath Manipulator “grooming” his elders as Inner-Ring allies.
    As the Rabbit from Tarsus wrote, Sociopaths and Manipulators are masters of camouflaging what they really are.

    They were quick to believe the best of Liam (and frankly, each other). They were quick to accept shallow repentance and extend cheap grace, while those outside of the elder circle were hurt.

    They were The Inner Ring, not a bunch of pew-warming Nobodies.
    Like Reichsminister Speer, they “arranged their minds” to see Nothing Wrong with the System that bestowed Elder rank upon them.

    I honestly doubt there were elders who were afraid of Liam. I think, on the contrary, they thought too highly of him. And any evidence or suggestions to the contrary was dismissed.

    Again, just like a Sociopath Manipulator (in the words of the Rabbi from Tarsus) appearing as an Angel of Light.


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    Karen Walton:
    My husband, myself, and one child were excommunicated after said child came out as transgender.

    We were told that not only were we removed from Tenth Church and from the PCA …

    This is why we officially left Tenth …

    The records of the Tenth Session apparently indicate no church discipline and no excommunication of the Walton family. The records apparently show that the Waltons requested to be dropped from membership, and then refused requests for meetings with the Session.

    So it appears that the Waltons were not officially removed from either Tenth or the PCA.

    Karen, who informed you of your excommunication? How were you informed?


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    elastigirl:
    Bob M,

    “The man in question is the lead pastor of a church. I want to know if he is a genuine believer, don’t you? Oh yeah, you don’t believe that the church is a valid concept for people to be a part of”
    +++++++++++++++++

    oodles of people in and out of the church institution are believers.

    if “genuine believer” means “a believey believer”, well, who can say.

    believers see things in so many different ways.all of which can be cobbled together as biblical in one way or another.makes ‘biblical’ the silliest word around.

    I think belief in God has different qualities and contours. it’s unreasonable & obnoxious to expect everyone’s belief to be uniform.we can agree on a few basic things and that’s enough.

    hall monitors are a drag.belief hall monitors are insuffferable.

    what matters most is one’s actions, integrity, a heart of kindness & compassion,…(being plain-spoken is not incompatible)

    In other words, you do not believe that the Bible is a reliable Authority, and our Ultimate Authority on earth.


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    Ira,

    How did you find these things? I am willing to share the two letters we received, signed by George McFarland on behalf of Session.


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    Karen Walton,

    Dear Karen,

    I realize you were not trying to suggest that elders were scared of Liam. I was responding to the person who is going by the name “Friend”. Friend seems to have misinterpreted you as suggesting elders were afraid of Liam. My previous post – the one you responded to – quoted “Friend” directly. Also, Friend’s quote that I responded to is also included in one of your responses to Friend. Your post to Friend isn’t formatted well and it looks as though you were saying it, but I knew you weren’t. Friend said it and I was merely responding to that person.

    Best wishes, Ron


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    Ron DiGiacomo: Friend seems to have misinterpreted you as suggesting elders were afraid of Liam.

    Hi all. I was reacting to this:

    Karen Walton: These elders agreed that Liam could be volatile and was easily angered. They mentioned trying to keep him out of personal issues as he tended to escalate matters.

    If they weren’t afraid, what was that? I don’t understand, and would appreciate some clarity. I’m trying to grasp the situation and offer support.


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    Karen Walton: My husband, myself, and one child were excommunicated

    Hi Karen, I’d like to ask a bit more about this. Was it an informal or a formal excommunication?

    As I understanding it, formal excommunication would entail a record being made in the Session minutes that the Session formally voted to excommunicate the persons named and Session’s reasons for that decision.

    So I’m asking, did Tenth formally excommunicate you? Or did they just make it so unpleasant for you to keep attending that you and your family decided to leave?


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    Friend,

    Hi Friend,

    Perhaps Karen simply means that it was relayed to her by certain elders that discussion would be fruitless if Liam were present. That would not imply that these elders were “afraid” of Liam. It would merely explain why they would not want him present for certain pastoral discussions – not because of fear but because of lack of spiritual productivity given his *alleged* volatility.

    That being said, I’ve known Liam ten plus years and I have no place in my imagination for such assertions. I went through session meetings with Liam during Covid. If ever there was a time for unrestrained passion, it was then. Liam was angelic. He led with grace, wisdom and compassion. He had convictions that never were imposed upon session. He was an exemplary moderator and a shepherd of shepherds through those most tumultuous times.

    Warmly,

    Ron


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    Ron DiGiacomo: I’ve known Liam ten plus years and I have no place in my imagination for such assertions. I went through session meetings with Liam during Covid. If ever there was a time for unrestrained passion, it was then. Liam was angelic. He led with grace, wisdom and compassion. He had convictions that never were imposed upon session. He was an exemplary moderator and a shepherd of shepherds through those most tumultuous times.

    Hi Ron, the thing is, Liam was leading a double life. The proof that he was leading a double life is in those court dockets. To the Session, he may have been presenting as an angelic leader and an exemplary moderator and shepherd of shepherds. But he was at the same time concealing his secret sin and the existence of those court dockets and the fact that he had PLED GUILTY to the citation.

    Therefore, he was NOT an angelic leader. He was a two-faced liar.

    Please Ron, I beg you, face reality! Your cognitive dissonance seems to be causing your to not fully face the reality that Liam was a liar.

    Since Liam has been proved to be a liar, and his pattern of conduct shows that he had been lying for years, I suggest that you need to seriously consider the testimonies given in this comments thread by people who have attended Tenth and who experienced other sides of Liam.


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    Ron DiGiacomo: they would not want him present for certain pastoral discussions – not because of fear but because of lack of spiritual productivity given his *alleged* volatility.

    Are you saying there is a layer of protection between a member and the senior pastor? I have complained directly to senior pastors and various associates/assistants over the years.

    Listening to members is their job. Calling a concern “pastoral” doesn’t excuse pastors from listening. Rather, it compels them all the more.

    If certain topics expose a pastor’s volatility, the pastor might not have the ideal temperament for the work.

    This makes me think of the parable of the importunate widow.


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    Dear Barbara,

    I’ll try to address your response with precision. I’d only ask that precision not be misconstrued as uncaring or in any way insensitive. These are indeed serious matters. I get that.

    “Hi Ron, the thing is, Liam was leading a double life. The proof that he was leading a double life is in those court dockets.”

    The court dockets don’t suggest a pattern of life but a one time incident. To derive a pattern of life from a single citation entails a leap of reason. The unfavorable conclusion would exceed the scope of the single premise. The assumptions one must make to arrive at such condemnation are extraordinary and beyond our finitude.

    1. Do you know whether Liam was aware of the definition of the citation code? Whenever I’ve paid a ticket, I never tried to decipher the code before mailing in the check.

    2. The term “sexual activity” is not capitalized in section 19, so there is no clear definition of the term. Moreover, there are two more severe citations that could have been issued within the same general category of transgression, but neither code was cited. Accordingly, without definitions and given the other two possible citations that were not issued, the transgression could be as minimal as kissing. Don’t get me wrong. That would be egregious sin and worthy of him being deposed from office. I cannot stress that enough. My only point, however, is that what is being promulgated in cyber-land is prolonged adultery of an explicit nature; yet those conclusions, even if true, are not warranted by the public facts.

    “To the Session, he may have been presenting as an angelic leader and an exemplary moderator and shepherd of shepherds. But he was at the same time concealing his secret sin and the existence of those court dockets and the fact that he had PLED GUILTY to the citation.”

    Consider a scenario in which Liam engaged in no impropriety. Surely you can imagine such a hypothetical. In that context, it is advisable for all who will stand before Christ to allow presbytery to conduct its inquiry. Even if you think presbytery is cowardly, self-preservation alone will wall in that body to render righteous judgement.

    “Therefore, he was NOT an angelic leader. He was a two-faced liar.”

    With all due respect, I am unable to distinguish your conclusion from your argument to that conclusion.

    “Please Ron, I beg you, face reality! Your cognitive dissonance seems to be causing your to not fully face the reality that Liam was a liar.”

    I’m sorry to have disappointed you, Barbara. As best as I can discern, I believe I am trying to extend the judgment of charity by not going beyond my creaturely limitations. Now then, what if the Ranger came forth and stated that he was trying to stick it to Liam without cause? Is that possible? If it’s possible, then given my lack of omniscience I believe I’m accountable to God to withhold judgment given that distinct possibility. That’s where we apparently disagree. Indeed, your conclusion could be correct, but life before Christ isn’t a multiple guess test. It’s more of an essay. God will exam our work, not just our bottom line answers. If one is correct while having judged hastily, he / she will be judged in kind.

    “Since Liam has been proved to be a liar, and his pattern of conduct shows that he had been lying for years, I suggest that you need to seriously consider the testimonies given in this comments thread by people who have attended Tenth and who experienced other sides of Liam.”

    You’ve already judged the matter. So, there’s no more I should say other than may God have mercy. I pray that the imprecatory psalms you’ve been praying aren’t returned unto you.

    Grace and peace,

    Ron


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    Bob M: In other words, you do not believe that the Bible is a reliable Authority, and our Ultimate Authority on earth.

    Elastigirl never said any such thing Bob.
    It’s ‘other words’ that you’ve tacked onto her words.


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    Friend,

    Dear Friend,

    You’ve misread Karen and now me. I never suggested a buffer between sheep and shepherd. Nor did Karen imply certain elders were afraid of the pastor.

    Blessings,

    Ron


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    Ron DiGiacomo,

    This is interesting. I’ve been posting on TWW for years, and this is the first time I’ve been told I am misreading comments.

    Of course you didn’t mean that there’s a buffer between members and the senior pastor. But what exactly is this? Were you describing what you know, or guessing, or what?

    Your words, for your convenience:

    “It would merely explain why they would not want him present for certain pastoral discussions – not because of fear but because of lack of spiritual productivity given his *alleged* volatility.”


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    Barbara Roberts,

    I would be happy to let you see the letters we received and decide for yourself. You can message me on Facebook or Dee has my email. If neither of those options work, let me know what would work better.

    What I can say right here is that if the record states that we “withdrew our membership” or were “members in good standing” then the record is deceitful. If by some technicality it could be argued that it was true, it certainly gives a false impression of what we experienced. We feel excommunicated, condemned, unwelcome, rejected, and humiliated. Our children feel the same even though they were not officially involved in the proceedings.

    As Ron demonstrates, these men are adept at manipulating technicalities and people have suffered. My family has suffered.


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    Friend,

    Friend,

    I was giving you a “for instance” of how you might interpret *Karen’s remarks* without construing *her* remarks as implying that certain elders were afraid of Liam. Again, Karen denies saying that she thought the elders were afraid of Liam. In that context I offered you a way to interpret what was being said. I said:

    Perhaps Karen simply means that it was relayed to her by certain elders that discussion would be fruitless if Liam were present. That would not imply that these elders were “afraid” of Liam. It would merely explain why they would not want him present for certain pastoral discussions – not because of fear but because of lack of spiritual productivity given his *alleged* volatility.

    That being said, I’ve known Liam ten plus years and I have no place in my imagination for such assertions. I went through session meetings with Liam during Covid. If ever there was a time for unrestrained passion, it was then. Liam was angelic. He led with grace, wisdom and compassion. He had convictions that never were imposed upon session. He was an exemplary moderator and a shepherd of shepherds through those most tumultuous times.

    Warmly,

    Ron


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    Ron DiGiacomo,

    Ron,

    When you make comments like “Liam was angelic” or “a shepherd of shepherds” that may be true in your experience. I don’t doubt it. But that was not the experience of all people. Somebody who is abusive to one person is not necessarily so to everybody. In fact, part of the power of some abusers is their ability to manipulate people with their charm. To appear above reproach.

    When you say that Liam and Session were good, kind, and honorable men in response to me telling you they gravely wounded me and my family, you diminish me. You suggest I am a liar or stupidly mistaken.

    What you shared was your experience. What I shared was mine. Your experience does not supercede or negate mine. We were at Tenth for 17 years. We had many wonderful experiences. We considered many of the elders to be friends. That is why their cruelty toward us hurt so badly.

    In spite of knowing and trusting us for years, in spite of our faithful service, in spite of months of knowing we were carrying a heart wrenching burden, not one elder asked to hear our story, not one sat with us, not one prayed with us. (Except Liam, at our request.) We were utterly abandoned by the men who called themselves shepherds. And then we were treated harshly, rejected, and removed.

    That is my experience. That you,as a fellow elder, did not experience this does not change my anything.


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    Bob M,

    reliable authority…ultimate authority on earth…
    ++++++++++++++++++

    weighty considerations, indeed.

    taking the long view,

    and considering there is enough wide-ranging disagreement on the bible for human beings to kill each other, torture each other, abandon & excommunicate & reject each other,

    and so many other cruel & snotty ways to disregard the humanity & dignity of each other because of difference in viewpoint…

    do we really want to insist that “my interpretation” is the only correct one,

    and foist it on every other human being as the binding authoritative verdict for their every issue, every circumstance, every decision, every thought, feeling, hope and dream?

    the bible is good and great (when it’s not being weaponized offensively and defensively to gain the advantage).


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    Karen Walton,

    It is deeply wounding to be punished for faithfully being light in the church. I’m so very sorry.

    “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.“


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    Karen Walton,

    No, I disagree. Ron is only giving an account of his experience. It doesn’t diminish what you said nor does your account diminish his. They’re different, they show conflicting aspects of Liam’s behaviour. I said above that I thought it strange that a 63 year old man should do whatever he did and thought it unlikely that it was a “one-off”. However I don’t know. Neither does anyone here. What I do know is that in Scotland, he was a good faithful minister caring for each of his congregations. And the best example I can give can be found in the book “Choosing Joy: A Memoir of Spiritual Trauma Survived”, published in 2022 by John A H Dempster, a school friend of mine who benefited greatly from Liam’s preaching and counsel over many years. It’s a marvellous book.


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    Karen Walton,

    ”When you say that Liam and Session were good, kind, and honorable men in response to me telling you they gravely wounded me and my family, you diminish me. You suggest I am a liar or stupidly mistaken.”

    Dear Karen,

    I would never want to hurt you in any of those ways. I hope it will be of some comfort know that I never once made a comment about session as an organic whole or as a multiplicity of particular elders. So, please don’t think I am trying to prove you wrong about session.

    My comments as they related to demeanor were limited strictly to Liam’s behavior at session meetings. And those comments were intended to give someone else occasion to pause as they were wrongly inferring from you that certain men were afraid of Liam due to his alleged volatility. Accordingly, you needn’t construe my comments about Liam as rebutting your testimony about session or other unnamed elders.

    Yet regarding my comments as they relate to Liam, as Lowlandseer kindly pointed out, they are not incompatible with any of the allegations you’ve made, and they certainly don’t “suggest [you are] a liar or stupidly mistaken.”

    “What you shared was your experience.”

    Yes, I shared my first hand experience as they relate to a single person in the defined context of session meetings. I did not relay secondhand hearsay about anyone in particular or an organic body of elders.

    “What I shared was mine.”

    You tried to console one commenter who decried “the corruption…the lies and abuse of these men….” This particular lament was not toward Liam or any other individual but against “these men”. Your response was that you “saw and experienced this abuse.”

    Session was at times comprised of as many as twenty elders. But even when it was comprised of nearly half that number, “these men” do not single out any particular man, let alone the senior minister. All that is to say, your comment wasn’t directed toward Liam, so, again, any favorable impression I have shared about Liam need not be taken as my trying to “supersede or negate” your impressions either of session or of Liam. In fact, most of the first hand experiences you’ve relayed pertained to elders other than Liam. And, much of what you’ve said about Liam pertains to suspicion or the alleged comments you heard from other elders about Liam and your dear friend. For instance: After saying you “saw L berate and accuse..,” you later stated you were “not personally present in any of these conversations, but out of concern for my friend I spoke to several elders about the things I had heard. These elders agreed that Liam could be volatile and was easily angered. They mentioned trying to keep him out of personal issues as he tended to escalate matters.”

    Even if you personally witnessed Liam act in ways unbecoming of a minister. I would only caution anyone against spreading such a report whether it’s first hand or not.

    “We were at Tenth for 17 years. We had many wonderful experiences. We considered many of the elders to be friends. That is why their cruelty toward us hurt so badly.”

    I am sincerely sorry for the pain you’ve undergone. Truly, I am. I prayed for you and your family at various times during a time in which I sensed you were struggling. I wasn’t your assigned elder so I couldn’t impose myself. At times I tried to make a connection with you and your husband through my joy of caring for your dear youngest in nursery during some evening services. Perhaps I should have tried harder than just lingering around your pew with nobody to talk to after evening services.

    “In spite of knowing and trusting us for years, in spite of our faithful service, in spite of months of knowing we were carrying a heart wrenching burden, not one elder asked to hear our story, not one sat with us, not one prayed with us. (Except Liam, at our request.) We were utterly abandoned by the men who called themselves shepherds. And then we were treated harshly, rejected, and removed….That is my experience. That you,as a fellow elder, did not experience this does not change my anything.”

    Karen, I am unable to get into my experiences (or the experiences of my wife and daughters) that were the impetus for my stepping down from session and soon after leaving Tenth, other than to say, I am not a stranger to pain and suffering. My only point in this response is in no way have I sought to discredit your personal testimony anymore than you’ve tried to discredit mine.

    If you and Dave would like to talk, I’d count it a joy.

    Blessings,

    Ron


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    Lowlandseer,

    I would agree with you except for two things:
    1. When Ron says “I have no place in my imagination for such assertions” he is explicitly saying that he does not believe what I say could be true. That diminishes me in his eyes.
    2. Ron is using his experience as an elder, someone who was on Session with Liam, to lend weight to his words. In my church context there is a significant power differential between me and an “Elder”. Elders are considered to be endowed with greater wisdom or godliness. Their words are granted greater significance. We are considered to have taken vows to submit to them. Therefore it is not insignificant that Ron says Liam “was angelic” or “was a shepherd of shepherds.” To him, that is how Liam “was” while what I say are only my “feelings” or “experiences”. Do you see the difference? The elders consider their experience to be reality and other people’s experiences are compared to and measured by that reality.

    This is what let’s abuses run rampant in the church. This is how victims are not believed.


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    Karen Walton: The elders consider their experience to be reality and other people’s experiences are compared to and measured by that reality.

    Two Plus Two Equals Five, Comrade.


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    “When Ron says “I have no place in my imagination for such assertions” he is explicitly saying that he does not believe what I say could be true. That diminishes me in his eyes.”

    Dear Karen,

    I’m sorry if I haven’t been clear. Of course I believe what you say could be true. I believe it is possible that Liam has been volatile. I believe it is possible that certain elders were afraid of Liam. Notwithstanding, is is it so unimaginable that I can’t conjure up in my mind what that would even look like? That I cannot imagine a man, who normally speaks in a whisper, raising his voice or getting escalated hardly equates to my not believing it is possible.

    I don’t sit in judgment of what is actually true in this regard. It’s not my place. I merely know that I’ve never seen Liam behave in ways that I know are possible for him (or any redeemed sinner). I, also, believe that before God I am to be slow to receive a bad report and am to remain agnostic on what you heard from other elders, your friend or even your own testimony. In a word, that my conscience forbids me to believe things as true merely on say-so does not mean I think these things are impossible. If anyone thinks that sinfully discredits another person’s testimony, I don’t know what I can say.

    Blessings,

    Ron


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    Ron DiGiacomo: Even if you personally witnessed Liam act in ways unbecoming of a minister. I would only caution anyone against spreading such a report whether it’s first hand or not.

    Why should anyone be cautioned against sharing a first hand report which uncovers abuses of power or position? Why should anyone be hindered from seeking clarity on a concern they feel based on the first hand report of someone else?

    Honesty and transparency over suppression and silencing.


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    Folks, I’m going to bow out of this discussion. I feel like I have monopolized the discussion. I appreciate the words of encouragement and the reminders of different perspectives. I have used my actual name so it is possible to reach me if you desire. Thank you all!


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    Dear Sister Karen,

    For starters, I would like to say that I am sorry that you are in pain over how you have been treated. And for the struggles your family is facing. Ron and I will most certainly be praying for you all and the the matters you are burdened by.

    I do want to just jump in here as a woman and sister in Christ, and since your concern is being communicated publicly, I would like to publicly express that regardless of whether your assertions are true (that is not what is in question), it is a violation of the ninth commandment to pass on a bad report in any way other than God prescribes. This is what is personally so disheartening to me about what is going on with our former pastor. The untold liberties people have taken in expressing their opinions about Liam (even if they are first hand experiences) without following the biblical process God has laid out for us. We so often make dealing with one another far more difficult than it needs to be. God makes all of this very simple for us. We have only two options: We all called to cover a multitude of sins, or we follow Matthew 18. Neither of those options give us liberty to express a bad report to anyone other than the accused, a witness, and then the church (or when we must confidently solicit help from a godly person in seeking to discern how to handle something.).

    Ron and I are not so naive as to believe anyone is not capable of the most egregious of sins for we know our own hearts and that apart from God’s grace we are all desperately wicked. His point, and now mine, is that we ought to strive to be a part of the solution by confronting our brothers and sisters in Christ in the ways that God ordains and not in such public ways, that in all do respect, I believe violate the 9th commandment.

    Karen, might I urge you as a woman, that God has given you a husband to protect you. I would urge you to submit to your husband on this front and if he wants to make this a public matter than let him lead your family on this front. But for you to be coming out publicly against ministers of the gospel, is not something that I believe is becoming of a Christian woman. If your husband is not inclined to address this matter on your behalf, than I encourage you to “leave it to God who judges justly.”

    Praying for you all and hoping we will all do our part to end the horrible sin of spreading a bad report to those who are in no way a part of the solution. To your last question, the reason we are not to spread a bad report, is because God forbids us from doing so apart from the courts of the church. See Westminster Larger Catechism on the 9th Commandment below.

    If you do desire to talk about anything, I am here for you. I believe you have my phone number.

    With heart felt concern for you and your family,

    Lisa DiGiacomo

    Q. 143. Which is the ninth commandment?
    A. The ninth commandment is, Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

    Q. 144. What are the duties required in the ninth commandment?
    A. The duties required in the ninth commandment are, the preserving and promoting of truth between man and man, and the good name of our neighbor, as well as our own; appearing and standing for the truth; and from the heart, sincerely, freely, clearly, and fully, speaking the truth, and only the truth, in matters of judgment and justice, and in all other things whatsoever; a charitable esteem of our neighbors; loving, desiring, and rejoicing in their good name; sorrowing for and covering of their infirmities; freely acknowledging of their gifts and graces, defending their innocency; a ready receiving of a good report, and unwillingness to admit of an evil report, concerning them; discouraging talebearers, flatterers, and slanderers; love and care of our own good name, and defending it when need requireth; keeping of lawful promises; studying and practicing of whatsoever things are true, honest, lovely, and of good report.

    Q. 145. What are the sins forbidden in the ninth commandment?
    A. The sins forbidden in the ninth commandment are, all prejudicing the truth, and the good name of our neighbors, as well as our own, especially in public judicature; giving false evidence, suborning false witnesses, wittingly appearing and pleading for an evil cause, outfacing and overbearing the truth; passing unjust sentence, calling evil good, and good evil; rewarding the wicked according to the work of the righteous, and the righteous according to the work of the wicked; forgery, concealing the truth, undue silence in a just cause, and holding our peace when iniquity calleth for either a reproof from ourselves, or complaint to others; speaking the truth unseasonably, or maliciously to a wrong end, or perverting it to a wrong meaning, or in doubtful or equivocal expressions, to the prejudice of the truth or justice; speaking untruth, lying, slandering, backbiting, detracting, talebearing, whispering, scoffing, reviling, rash, harsh, and partial censuring; misconstructing intentions, words, and actions; flattering, vainglorious boasting, thinking or speaking too highly or too meanly of ourselves or others; denying the gifts and graces of God; aggravating smaller faults; hiding, excusing, or extenuating of sins, when called to a free confession; unnecessary discovering of infirmities; raising false rumors, receiving and countenancing evil reports, and stopping our ears against just defense; evil suspicion; envying or grieving at the deserved credit of any; endeavoring or desiring to impair it, rejoicing in their disgrace and infamy; scornful contempt, fond admiration; breach of lawful promises; neglecting such things as are of good report, and practicing, or not avoiding ourselves, or not hindering what we can in others, such things as procure an ill name.


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    Karen Walton,

    Good question, Karen. The only way I can reconcile not spreading a bad report and dealing with sin in the church is through availing ourselves to the courts of the church. I believe that to be God’s ordained accommodation where negative testimony may be appropriately unearthed. It keeps us all from judging in an unprescribed way.

    In His grace,

    Ron


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    Karen Walton,

    You have not monopolized the discussion; rather, you have shared an example of the treatment a family can experience when church leaders disapprove of one member. I hope that this discussion has helped you. It has certainly helped me to learn more about the dynamics in some churches.


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    Ron DiGiacomo: The only way I can reconcile not spreading a bad report and dealing with sin in the church is through availing ourselves to the courts of the church

    I have been doing this for 14+ years. I have found that the church does not deal with abuse thoughtfully and compassionately. The reason this blog exists is that churches behave quite badly.
    You give such a pat answer without considering another point of view.
    People are deserting churches, not due to people “passing on bad reports” but due to churches not doing what they were intended to do.
    Given the person secretly hiding his weird behavior in your pulpit, I would not recommend anyone go to your church with their “bad reports.” Something is amiss there.


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    Karen Walton,

    You have not monopolized the discussion. I want you to know that you are loved and cared about here. I am sorry to hear that your church, with its weird pastor, did not do the same.


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    Lisa DiGiacomo: it is a violation of the ninth commandment to pass on a bad report in any way other than what God prescribes.

    Ok. So tell me what God wants her to do. She should report this to a church with a weird pastor with a history of other bad actors (see the GRACE report). I do not buy your interpretation of the 9th commandment. I know what Luther has to say about this.

    You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
    What does this mean? We should fear and love God so that we do not tell lies about our neighbor, betray him, slander him, or hurt his reputation, but defend him, speak well of him, and explain everything most kindly.

    Please focus on “false testimony.” It means not to lie. Abusive churches attempt to interpret that commandment in a way that makes people “shut up.” BTW, slander means to lie as well. It also does not say to go to “church courts” or anything. I’m not too fond when people add words to the Scripture.

    Are you saying Karen is lying? If not, your words have been taken out of context.

    The things you quote are what your church “interprets” the 9th commandment to mean. That means they are words of men, not God. Read the commandment for what it says. “Do not bear false witness.” All of the other stuff is nonsense. For example, “speaking the truth unseasonably.” Now, that’s a way to get people to shut up.

    I found your parroting of these words so interesting that I have put them in a rough draft and will plan to write about how one church, yours, attempts to silence people by pretending that bearing false witness means all sorts of things.

    May I suggest you and your husband pick up a copy of “The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse.” https://www.amazon.com/Subtle-Power-Spiritual-Abuse-Manipulation/dp/0764201379/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3S84SWJQCX865&keywords=the+subtle+power+of+spiritual+abuse+by+david+johnson&qid=1702998024&sprefix=the+subtle+po%2Caps%2C106&sr=8-1

    Given what has happened at your church, it seems time to reconsider your approach to dealing with hurting people.

    You could have done so much more to show Karen love and compassion. Instead, you hit her over the head with an interpretation of a simple commandment. If this happens at your church, things need to change. Here is a suggestion: A Church Called Tov. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=a+church+called+tov&crid=2O428TMGG9OJM&sprefix=a+church+calle%2Caps%2C105&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_1_14


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    Ron DiGiacomo: In His grace,

    I’m not seeing much grace here. But it makes a good tag line, doesn’t it?


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    Lisa DiGiacomo: I would urge you to submit to your husband on this front and if he wants to make this a public matter than let him lead your family on this front. But for you to be coming out publicly against ministers of the gospel, is not something that I believe is becoming of a Christian woman. If your husband is not inclined to address this matter on your behalf, than I encourage you to “leave it to God who judges justly.”

    Are you serious? You sure have these lines dow pat. Given what you say here, I would urge women to think twice before becoming members of your church. This stuff will make a great post.


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    Ron DiGiacomo,

    I found a name identical to yours in something called the Aquila Report. Here are some quotations in which the author heaps scorn on whole denominations and says some things about church members.

    Perhaps the author should have given this testimony in the secret confines of a church court.

    “For most congregants, what seems to matter most is what I’ve recently coined the 3 C’s: Community. Comfort. Convenience. When such creaturely concerns of congregants take precedent over another 3 C’s (a confessional cause for Christ), it’s just a matter of time until the proverbial frog-congregant cooks in the kettle.

    “A settled willingness to float downstream affords great latitude for pastors and preachers to push agendas rather than faithfully explicate God’s word in accordance to confessional standards. Under such conditions, the congregant whose utmost allegiance is to Christ rather than the 3 C’s will protest, leave or both. It’s not a Christian option to idly stand by as apostasy sets in.

    … “In this one respect, the Reformed church resembles Romanism. Not to know what your overseers are to believe and teach is to follow glibly after both nothing and anything. As the old adage goes, if you don’t stand for something eventually you’ll fall for everything.

    “Did the PCUSA become the harlot she now is without first flirting with doctrinal infidelity? Again, how do churches become apostate? What’s their attitude along the way? How are our NAPARC churches doing in 2022? What’s the responsibility of congregants?”

    https://theaquilareport.com/seeds-of-apostasy-and-congregant-responsibility/


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    dee,

    “I have been doing this for 14+ years. I have found that the church does not deal with abuse thoughtfully and compassionately. The reason this blog exists is that churches behave quite badly.
    You give such a pat answer without considering another point of view.
    People are deserting churches, not due to people “passing on bad reports” but due to churches not doing what they were intended to do.
    Given the person secretly hiding his weird behavior in your pulpit, I would not recommend anyone go to your church with their “bad reports.” Something is amiss there.”

    Dear Dee,

    First off, thank you for allowing me to be a guest on your site.

    I can only wonder how frequently it is that persons who’ve been abused in the PCA have exhausted the courts of the church – from session, to presbytery and if necessary the standing judicial committee of the denomination. I don’t see any biblical prescription for not first seeking vindication through the church. That might address 99% of the problems. I appreciate it can be overwhelming, so God might just call one to shake the dust off his feet and move on in peace, trusting all to Him who judges justly. But if one has the energy to fight, then the accusations against our fellow man should be before ordained judges. (If one is a member of an independent church, of course there is not much hope for appeal. But in those cases, how many individuals who lose before their independent elder board publicly announce their grievances without first seeking the collective wisdom of their new church leaders?)

    Anyway, thank you for allowing me to speak freely and without censure. I will have to bow out now.

    Grace and peace,

    Ron


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    Lisa DiGiacomo: God has given you a husband to protect you.

    The young widows in three generations of my family would like a word.


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    Dear Dee,

    Your issue is not with me, but with the scriptures. I’m content to leave it there. I think better of Karen and have every confidence she will receive what I’ve said in Christian charity knowing that my husband have sough, by God’s grace, t to love the sheep well wherever God has placed us. Submission and the structures of family is one of my greatest joys in life. God was so wise in his creating families as he did. It’s a great comfort to women if they would rejoice in the wisdom of it.

    Warmly in Christ,

    Lisa


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    dee: You give such a pat answer without considering another point of view.

    So Spiritual and Godly all her brains have leaked out.
    Leaving only the CHRISTIAN Virtue Signalling.


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    LIsa DiGiacomo: Dear Dee,

    Your issue is not with me, but with the scriptures.

    And yet again, SCRIPTURE gets rung in as a Weapon.

    Warmly in Christ,

    So Cheerful, so Pious… Why am I not surprised?


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    dee: Are you serious? You sure have these lines down pat.

    doubleplusduckspeak.
    An MP3 playback loop of Christianese.
    I’d be checking to see if she’s an AI bot.


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    LIsa DiGiacomo: Your issue is not with me, but with the scriptures. I’m content to leave it there.

    Dolores Umbridge lives on. I’m content to leave it there.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy,

    The Aquila Report makes for an interesting read. Be sure to wear your Bircherite secret decoder ring. 😉


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    Ron DiGiacomo,

    Somewhere in among all that, you are quite illuminating. It looks like the Session members are throwing their hands up in bamboozlement and don’t know how to help when LG tries to get his church officers put right. Did they know of the circumstances when he was brought in?

    As it was his duty to conduct due diligence internally and externally did he think his new Session were going to be as well run as the one around Duke Street (and does anyone know what that one was like)?

    Did Duke Street congregants knowingly discern for him? Why if he had announced he was attracted to New Frontiers and the Mahaney machine in 2007 would he make the move to this setup (instead)?

    And with officers like the ones inside this church, obviously ordinary congregants don’t get very far in its “courts”; they don’t have the connections to get a nicer bunch of church bosses (at the level of practical clout) paradropped in to where they live.

    Does an attitude exist in some parts of the EIC that if we airlift a respectable pastor in it will nudge the misdoing officers in line? And that if they can persuade the gullible headhunted one that it is his deeper and darker calling to shoulder that burden, it scratches their back and his feeling of virtue at the same time?

    (“We are a nasty bunch of music ministers / youth ministers and would like to kid you you can sort us out”: vice signalling? Instead of just asking God in direct repentance?)

    Did LG learn the wrong kind of dutifulness at his grandmother’s knee? And does this confirm my unease about New Frontiers (who were perhaps flattered by his without explanation and curiously advertising them)?

    And is there any pastoral care for pastors in England or America?

    Lisa DiGiacomo: in the ways that God ordains

    The way the dynamic works is this: our whiter than white figurehead is above all that and if one goes straight to his subordinates when they themselves are misdoing and they won’t correct themselves (as according to all I’ve read was done about 10 years ago and since), and if when it reaches LG’s ears he re-refers those impacted back to the same culprits, then you are very tardy in citing your regulations. I think LG is in awe of the status of his subordinates.

    Lisa DiGiacomo: expressing their opinions about Liam (even if they are first hand experiences)

    Did the pastor appointment committee deliberately seek a candidate who could create (or perpetuate) an ambiguous impression / atmosphere in the congregation? Lots of large denominations operate like that for 50 or 60 years at a trot, making a nonsense of rules, doctrines, belief, relationships, everything.

    Do you bunch ever cry out to God? Did somebody teach you to blame those who are even smaller than yourself? You may have gone into serving hoping for the best, some time back. Does presbyterianism believe Jesus didn’t distribute gifts unvetoed at Ascension – or does He just pull quaint stunts on dull Thursdays? My hunch is it wasn’t your idea to ration truth.

    I’ve seen this time and time over with not much variation (I don’t volunteer but I increasingly ask questions why we are not asked to pray when Scripture asks us to pray, and urge my pals not to wait for permission to pray). Don’t wait for reports that something went wrong years before; be part of the solution by praying ahead of time – about everything.


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    Does anyone in his previous zigzagging carry clues also? He is moderately staid and moderately academic, not bad things as such. Why do ordinary congregants feel the need to put his type between their ghastly local hierarchs and God? Are they too used to not being consulted on the very constitution of their system? Doctrines = church order, to which even God has been bound in heaven.


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    Ron DiGiacomo: You tried to console one commenter who decried “the corruption…the lies and abuse of these men….” This particular lament was not toward Liam or any other individual but against “these men”. Your response was that you “saw and experienced this abuse.”

    Good fake interpretation as to what I said to spin your own argument. Actually read the whole context and comment and you will see I was referring to the abhorrent behavior of Goligher and Wynne. That being said, the disgusting behavior and corruption I have seen since from so-called “Elders” of Tenth make it clear that nothing has changed, Tenth’s leadership has learned nothing, and the only goal that they see is to push all of this scandal back into the shadows. Tenth’s Leadership is morally bankrupt, and has been for too long.


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    Friend,

    I found what he said quite refreshing in its honesty. He wasn’t trashing denominations, he was pointing out to church members the dangers of a ministry by men, be they pastors or elders, who don’t adhere to the confessional standards they vowed to affirm and who may thereby lead the flock astray.
    And if you’re interested in a more complete picture of what this means, pop over to Monergism and read more of his essays. They’re very good.


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    Lowlandseer,

    Frog-congregant, apostasy, Romanism, overseers, harlot, apostate: you say these terms are refreshingly honest, not trashing church members and denominations?

    If these broadsides are acceptable in public, what is reserved for secret testimony in the church courts? Pity the poor stenographer.


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    Ron DiGiacomo:

    2. The term “sexual activity” is not capitalized in section 19, so there is no clear definition of the term. Moreover, there are two more severe citations that could have been issued within the same general category of transgression, but neither code was cited. Accordingly, without definitions and given the other two possible citations that were not issued, the transgression could be as minimal as kissing. Don’t get me wrong. That would be egregious sin and worthy of him being deposed from office. I cannot stress that enough. My only point, however, is that what is being promulgated in cyber-land is prolonged adultery of an explicit nature; yet those conclusions, even if true, are not warranted by the public facts.

    I have repeatedly posted proof that 98-19-B is indeed sexual activity.

    This link https://cryptpad.fr/drive/#/2/drive/view/TQTMAjAY9YZP9AcBCTj2MEN3WsYkwKBjo3kXHWRwoaM/ allows you to view all the court dockets and the Lancaster County Ordinance pertaining to this case.

    Here is 98 in full text and signed by officials: https://cryptpad.fr/file/#/3/file/a4a6a019fcc67d82340c6ffda8d954463774d337029ec60f/


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    The legal definition of sexual activity, from Law Insider:

    Sexual activity means sexual conduct or sexual contact, or both.
    Sexual activity means the oral, anal, or vaginal penetration by, or union with, the sexual organ of another or the anal or vaginal penetration of another by any other object; however, sexual activity does not include an act done for a bona fide medical purpose.
    Sexual activity means an activity that a reasonable person would, in all the circumstances but regardless of any person’s purpose, consider to be sexual.


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    LIsa DiGiacomo: Your issue is not with me, but with the scriptures.

    Sadly, you are incorrect. My disagreement with you has nothing to do with the Scriptures. It is with the poor interpretation of said Scriptures by men with an agenda.

    Let me give you an example. Many men (usually men) believe that Scripture presents a Young Earth interpretation. Many Christians, myself included, would disagree with that interpretation. So many view the Scriptures through the prism of what has been presented to them from the beginning of faith. I am glad you are happy with your chosen view of expanded Scripture, which you believe is the “correct” path.

    I know you don’t see it, but your comment was hurtful. I almost didn’t post it because I do not believe in piling onto victims. What you said was fascinating, and I will be quoting you extensively in terms of the application of your “expanded” Scripture to an abuse situation. I am deeply concerned that this is how your church treats those who have dealt with difficult situations. I also appreciate your commitment to your view, butI would not recommend your church to those looking for support.


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    Ira,

    I think the DiGiacomo team has been sent to present the only proper way. The fact they would attempt to downplay the “city park” incident is humorous. The dude resigned, and he didn’t try to claim that he was having a nice picnic with his gal pal and that there was nothing untoward about it except that he broke the Billy Graham rule. I’ ‘m giggling all the way…


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    Karen Walton:
    Barbara Roberts,

    I would be happy to let you see the letters we received and decide for yourself. You can message me on Facebook or Dee has my email. If neither of those options work, let me know what would work better.

    What I can say right here is that if the record states that we “withdrew our membership” or were “members in good standing” then the record is deceitful. If by some technicality it could be argued that it was true, it certainly gives a false impression of what we experienced. We feel excommunicated, condemned, unwelcome, rejected, and humiliated. Our children feel the same even though they were not officially involved in the proceedings.

    As Ron demonstrates, these men are adept at manipulating technicalities and people have suffered. My family has suffered.

    dee and Barbara Roberts/strong>, would you please be in touch with Karen Walton about viewing the two letters from the Tenth Session? I’d like to know if they appear to be letters of excommunication.


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    Ron DiGiacomo

    Lisa DiGiacomo:

    Were you the family who left Tenth because you didn’t like that there was a woman up front during a service reading a Bible passage?


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    Godith,

    Bruce Chambers did a complete security program for the church in 2017. He asked that the pastors, teachers, elders etc all go through the police background check that one must pass to be a Little League or soccer coach. THEY WOULD NOT DO IT ! They knew something.


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    Ira: dee and Barbara Roberts/strong>, would you please be in touch with Karen Walton about viewing the two letters from the Tenth Session?

    I am open for this and will send an email.


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    R: Were you the family who left Tenth because you didn’t like that there was a woman up front during a service reading a Bible passage?

    I would not be surprised given the level of bizarre accusation ttied to the 9th commandment.


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    charles lyddane: Bruce Chambers did a complete security program for the church in 2017. He asked that the pastors, teachers, elders etc all go through the police background check that one must pass to be a Little League or soccer coach. THEY WOULD NOT DO IT ! They knew something.

    All churches require all working in the church to pass a yearly background check. This is not a big deal unless…they knew something!!!
    This church needs an independent outside group to investigate this.


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    I have received copies of letters from Karen Walton. I’, sure certain commenters will inform me that I violated this and that commandment. Sadly, they do not understand how abuse allows for freedom of contact. If any of these folks read their Bibles instead of listening to some man’s interpretation of Scripture, they might learn something about love and compassion.
    Karen and I will discuss the emails and decide where to go.


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    Godith,

    One commenter said that the elders and assorted big boys refused to do yearly background checks. I wonder if they knew about Goligher. Even worse, did some violate specific commandments and not want that to become common knowledge?


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    PS I enjoy playing Bible commandment bingo. It helps me to see what the authoritarian BFFs are up to. I have been playing this game for 14 years and find this crowd rather common, if you catch my drift. From this point forward, I will not allow any comments that target an abuse victim-physical, emotional, or spiritual.


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    Barbara Roberts,

    Back at you. I’m sorry it was about someone you knew and liked.


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    charles lyddane:
    Godith,

    Bruce Chambers did a complete security program for the church in 2017. He asked that the pastors, teachers, elders etc all go through the police background check that one must pass to be a Little League or soccer coach. THEY WOULD NOT DO IT ! They knew something.

    WHAT!!!! Was he wanting them to just do a one-time or yearly check? Did he tell you this directly?


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    Karen Walton: I honestly doubt there were elders who were afraid of Liam. I think, on the contrary, they thought too highly of him. And any evidence or suggestions to the contrary was dismissed.

    Thank you for saying this, Karen Walton. I think you are probably right on this.


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    Ron DiGiacomo: The court dockets don’t suggest a pattern of life but a one time incident. To derive a pattern of life from a single citation entails a leap of reason. The unfavorable conclusion would exceed the scope of the single premise. The assumptions one must make to arrive at such condemnation are extraordinary and beyond our finitude.

    1. Do you know whether Liam was aware of the definition of the citation code? Whenever I’ve paid a ticket, I never tried to decipher the code before mailing in the check.

    2. The term “sexual activity” is not capitalized in section 19, so there is no clear definition of the term. Moreover, there are two more severe citations that could have been issued within the same general category of transgression, but neither code was cited. Accordingly, without definitions and given the other two possible citations that were not issued, the transgression could be as minimal as kissing. Don’t get me wrong. That would be egregious sin and worthy of him being deposed from office. I cannot stress that enough. My only point, however, is that what is being promulgated in cyber-land is prolonged adultery of an explicit nature; yet those conclusions, even if true, are not warranted by the public facts.

    “To the Session, he may have been presenting as an angelic leader and an exemplary moderator and shepherd of shepherds. But he was at the same time concealing his secret sin and the existence of those court dockets and the fact that he had PLED GUILTY to the citation.”

    Consider a scenario in which Liam engaged in no impropriety. Surely you can imagine such a hypothetical. In that context, it is advisable for all who will stand before Christ to allow presbytery to conduct its inquiry. Even if you think presbytery is cowardly, self-preservation alone will wall in that body to render righteous judgement.

    “Therefore, he was NOT an angelic leader. He was a two-faced liar.”

    With all due respect, I am unable to distinguish your conclusion from your argument to that conclusion.

    Hi Ron,
    I agree that the court dockets show a single incident.

    However,for nearly ten years Liam Goligher concealed from Session and the Tenth Congregation the fact that he had been cited and pled guilty for that incident. This is why I say he has displayed a pattern of conduct. He has shown a pattern of conduct of deceit.

    Now, if a lay Christian did what Goligher did (concealing from his fellow congregants that he had done a sexual sin, such concealment would not necessarily be a seriously sinful pattern of conduct. But for a Senior Pastor to conceal from the congregation that he had done a sexual sin DOES constitute a seriously sinful pattern of conduct.

    Even if the sexual sin of the Senior Minister was only one incident of kissing a woman who was not his wife (as you suggested it might have been), his concealment is serious conduct, and it’s a pattern because he kept it up for so long. Liam has been a two-faced liar by concealing this matter from Tenth for so long. Hence, my logic stands.

    I have no evidence or proof that Liam Goligher was, or was not, doing sexually illicit things with Susan Elzey on other days, or months or years. I am not speculating on that matter, such speculation is pretty fruitless. I resent you trying to criticise me by roping me in with others in cyberland who may have been saying that Goligher and Elzey were committing adultery for years.

    Nothing I have said shows that I have already made up my mind about whether Goligher was guilty of more sexual sins than that one event listed in the citation.

    If you study the comments threads on TWW’s two posts about Goligher, you will see that a commenter has said that she (or he? I can’t remember who the commenter was) contacted the officer who made the citation, and that officer is the chief officer in that department of the Parks Authority, and the officer is still working there, but he can’t recall the incident and all the paperwork relating to that citation will have been destroyed by now, since it was so long ago.

    If the Parks Authority paperwork relating to that citation no longer exists, then that will make the job of the Presbytery harder.

    Nothing I have said will impede the Presbytery in doing its investigation. In fact, the details I have given here may HELP the Presbytery do its investigation. I hope the Presbytery investigation will lead to a right and godly conclusion about Liam Goligher’s conduct and what, if anything, Tenth and the Presbytery need to do about Goligher.

    You asked me to consider a scenario in which Liam engaged in no impropriety. I think that’s rather silly of you to suggest that, given that (a) Liam pled guilty and paid the fine; (b) the citation was given under Section 19:B — “engage in any form of sexual behavior”; (c) Liam resigned very soon after the court dockets were drawn to the attention of evangelical Christians worldwide; and (d) the officer who issued the citation is still working in that department and can be contacted.

    The Lancaster County Ordinance under which Goligher and Elzey were cited has been slightly revised since 2014. The following link to crytpad.fr allows you to view all the court dockets and the Lancaster County Ordinance pertaining to their citations. https://cryptpad.fr/drive/#/2/drive/view/TQTMAjAY9YZP9AcBCTj2MEN3WsYkwKBjo3kXHWRwoaM/.

    Therefore, I will not waste my mental energy considering a scenario in which Liam engaged in no impropriety.

    You asked: “Do you know whether Liam was aware of the definition of the citation code?”

    No, I don’t know whether Liam was aware of the definition of the citation code. But I do know that both Liam and Susan Elzey were cited for the same offence on the same day, and both pled guilty on the same day. Therefore, it’s more than reasonable to think that Liam and Susan both knew that the other was cited for the same offence and pled guilty for the same offence. They were doing the same offence on the same day. It’s not like they were both booked for speeding, and paid their fine without checking the exact meaning of the legal code for which they were cited.

    You said, “Whenever I’ve paid a ticket, I never tried to decipher the code before mailing in the check.” I can understand that, but you are presumably referring to things like speeding or parking tickets, not some offence in a public park.

    Ron, I suggest that rather than spending your time and energy trying to push back against commenters here, you spend your time and energy addressing the seriously wicked conduct of people like Carroll Wynne, which the GRACE report exposed. In your role as an elder at Tenth, the most important thing is to be protecting the children, the young people and the vulnerable pew-sitters in your congregation. Would you not agree?


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    Lisa DiGiacomo:
    Karen, might I urge you as a woman, that God has given you a husband to protect you.I would urge you to submit to your husband on this front and if he wants to make this a public matter than let him lead your family on this front.But for you to be coming out publicly against ministers of the gospel, is not something that I believe is becoming of a Christian woman.If your husband is not inclined to address this matter on your behalf, than I encourage you to “leave it to God who judges justly.”

    Hi all. I’m the husband. 🙂

    Lisa, my wife is an adult human being, and she doesn’t need any man, myself included, to silence her or tell her when she is allowed to speak. She is wise and articulate and I admire her willingness, throughout this nightmare, to speak out against abuse and be unwilling to accept the deceptive half-truths and outright lies we have heard again and again.

    We were told that a man who sexually abused young men under his authority was “leaving to pursue other opportunities.” We were told that a man pursuing inappropriate relationships with women other than his wife was “taking a much deserved break.” When Liam was spotted alone with Susan in a car outside of church, we were told that he “understood how it looked” and was repentant. When we were told one of our elders was under arrest for taking pictures up the skirts of minor girls, we were told not to gossip or talk about it with anyone. Even now, the Tenth elders are following the same playbook, not distributing the GRACE report to members and casting doubt on the accuracy of the report available on the Internet. Every crisis is addressed with the goal of protecting the organization and fellow leaders.

    Ron, I understand empathizing with the men you have served with. I have no doubt that you treated each other with respect and tried to make decisions you saw as good for the church. I have no doubt that Liam was soft-spoken and winsome in that context. But this is what happens, again and again:

    1. A member, often a woman, is hurt by an elder or someone else in the church, whether intentionally or unintentionally.
    2. The member tells one or more elders about what they experienced.
    3a. They never hear anything again, OR
    3b. They are brought into a meeting where they tell their story and are not believed, OR
    3c. There is tacit acknowledgement that so-and-so really shouldn’t have done that, but they’re sorry, so you shouldn’t talk about it anymore.

    Which means that the perpetrator continues the behavior. It goes on and on, and more people are hurt, but nothing is ever done. People are told not to gossip and not to tell anyone who is not part of the problem and to submit to their leaders. You only have to read the GRACE report to see this pattern happening repeatedly over decades, and those are just the big, splashy problems, mostly involving sex. There are SO MANY other instances that involve people being ignored, dismissed, belittled, shamed, pressured into doing things they didn’t want to do, or made to feel like whatever was bothering them was really their own fault.

    This is not just a “we’re all sinners” kind of problem. This is a systemic cancer in Christian churches caused by a culture that values protecting the reputation of the leaders and the church above the health of its members. Many of these leaders mean well and truly care about people, but are much too quick to accept the explanations of other leaders and trust in the “correct” way to raise problems. In our churches, individual members have little to no power. When hurt by leaders, they have little recourse and are often told that it would be wrong for them to speak up any more. When leaders sweep wrongs under the rug, the only way to hold them accountable is to TALK. In that sense, the readers of this site ARE part of the solution. Together we have power to shine light on the problems and press for them to be addressed. Some of the issues raised in the GRACE report were eventually addressed, but only when they became public. Only when the force of hurting people speaking up was more than could be papered over or ignored. Abusers only have power when they are sheltered by leaders and when the people who know what happened are kept from speaking.

    Like many women in the church, my wife has been told to be silent far too often. She doesn’t need my permission to speak, but I admire and applaud her for it.


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    Barbara Roberts: You asked: “Do you know whether Liam was aware of the definition of the citation code?”

    No, I don’t know whether Liam was aware of the definition of the citation code.

    Anyone charged with a crime needs and deserves competent legal representation. Criminal defense attorneys do work in Pennsylvania.

    The attorney’s job is to explain the charges.

    Did these folks get lawyers? If so, then they did understand the charges and the implications of pleading guilty. A decent criminal attorney should also have tried to get the charge reduced, or dropped and later expunged.

    If the senior pastor did not get a lawyer, he placed himself at risk that the criminal conviction would later be discovered. This in turn placed the congregation at risk of turmoil.

    Ignorance of the charge is no excuse.

    To imply that this was something like “we kissed once, got arrested, and accidentally pleaded guilty to X-rated behavior” strikes me as preposterous.

    I’m not a lawyer. I’ve been around, and I have seen people undergo background checks.


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    Friend: If the senior pastor did not get a lawyer, he placed himself at risk that the criminal conviction would later be discovered. This in turn placed the congregation at risk of turmoil.

    “Whosoever represents himself has a Fool for a client.”
    — Lawyer’s proverb


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    Lisa DiGiacomo: I do want to just jump in here as a woman and sister in Christ, and since your concern is being communicated publicly, I would like to publicly express that regardless of whether your assertions are true (that is not what is in question), it is a violation of the ninth commandment to pass on a bad report in any way other than God prescribes. This is what is personally so disheartening to me about what is going on with our former pastor. The untold liberties people have taken in expressing their opinions about Liam (even if they are first hand experiences) without following the biblical process God has laid out for us. We so often make dealing with one another far more difficult than it needs to be. God makes all of this very simple for us. We have only two options: We all called to cover a multitude of sins, or we follow Matthew 18. Neither of those options give us liberty to express a bad report to anyone other than the accused, a witness, and then the church (or when we must confidently solicit help from a godly person in seeking to discern how to handle something.).

    … His point, and now mine, is that we ought to strive to be a part of the solution by confronting our brothers and sisters in Christ in the ways that God ordains and not in such public ways, that in all do respect, I believe violate the 9th commandment.

    ….But for you to be coming out publicly against ministers of the gospel, is not something that I believe is becoming of a Christian woman. If your husband is not inclined to address this matter on your behalf, than I encourage you to “leave it to God who judges justly.”

    Praying for you all and hoping we will all do our part to end the horrible sin of spreading a bad report to those who are in no way a part of the solution. To your last question, the reason we are not to spread a bad report, is because God forbids us from doing so apart from the courts of the church. See Westminster Larger Catechism on the 9th Commandment below.

    .

    Lisa,
    Karen clearly believes that she has biblical warrant for speaking out publicly.

    You disagree and state your standards for your disagreement which appear to be that you believe that God made things simple by giving us only two options.

    I wonder, though, what in those two options (which is what you believe is allowed) gave you the authority to circumvent Matt 18 yourself rather than going to Karen privately. Yes, you have first hand knowledge of her public words, but you disapprove of expressing opinions based even on first-hand knowledge publicly. The justification that you give is that she expressed herself publicly, which you say is wrong, but then you express yourself publicly to say that she is wrong to express herself publicly. This is how it looks to someone outside that particular connections.

    I believe the full counsel of Scripture actually supports Karen’s speaking out and could cite multiple other ways that God gives for exposing sin, particularly the sin of a leader. However, I’m guessing that you might be more open to to considering those other Scriptures, if expounded by someone whose credentials you respect. If so, you may want to read the book Bully Pulpit, by Michael J. Kruger, who is president of Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte. He is a respected scholar of the New Testament and also is an expert on the canon. As president of a Reformed Seminary, he has a heart for pastors and it’s been his job to give a great deal of thought and study to the subject.


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    Eyewitness: This is how it looks to someone outside that particular connections.

    Should have said, “This is how it looks to someone outside that particular network of personal connections.” (i.e. people with connections to Tenth who are commenting here.


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    Barbara Roberts: Hi Ron,
    I agree that the court dockets show a single incident.

    … The Lancaster County Ordinance under which Goligher and Elzey were cited has been slightly revised since 2014. The following link to crytpad.fr allows you to view all the court dockets and the Lancaster County Ordinance pertaining to their citations. https://cryptpad.fr/drive/#/2/drive/view/TQTMAjAY9YZP9AcBCTj2MEN3WsYkwKBjo3kXHWRwoaM/.

    … I do know that both Liam and Susan Elzey were cited for the same offence on the same day, and both pled guilty on the same day. Therefore, it’s more than reasonable to think that Liam and Susan both knew that the other was cited for the same offence and pled guilty for the same offence. They were doing the same offence on the same day. It’s not like they were both booked for speeding, and paid their fine without checking the exact meaning of the legal code for which they were cited.

    – For the sake of clarity, Goligher and Elzey were cited separately but under the same exact Incident number. They were the only two involved in that Incident. The sexual act was clearly the two of them together.

    – The Charge was a violation of Lancaster County Parks Ordinance 98-19 §§ B (i.e. 19 Personal Conduct, B “No person shall engage in any form of sexual activity.”).

    – The legal definition of sexual activity, from Law Insider:
    Sexual activity means sexual conduct or sexual contact, or both.
    Sexual activity means the oral, anal, or vaginal penetration by, or union with, the sexual organ of another or the anal or vaginal penetration of another by any other object; however, sexual activity does not include an act done for a bona fide medical purpose.
    Sexual activity means an activity that a reasonable person would, in all the circumstances but regardless of any person’s purpose, consider to be sexual.

    Barbara Roberts: Ron … In your role as an elder at Tenth, the most important thing is to be protecting the children, the young people and the vulnerable pew-sitters in your congregation. Would you not agree?

    It appears that Ron, by his own admission, left Tenth and eldership years ago. A commenter here asked if he was the one who left due a woman reading scripture in front of the congregation.

    I have not seen any current elder comment on these threads.


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    FYI, Tenth issued a public statement on its’ website and posted it to Facebook on 12/13:
    https://www.tenth.org/statement/

    “Statement Regarding Our Senior Minister

    Dr. Liam Goligher resigned as Senior Minister of Tenth Presbyterian Church on Friday, December 1, 2023. This was following reports on the internet of a citation of personal conduct dating back to 2014 which was previously unknown to Tenth Church. The citation is a matter of public record and cites actions which give the appearance of sin. Our denomination, the Presbyterian Church in America, has specific processes to review the conduct of its ministers. This matter is being referred to the Philadelphia Presbytery who will conduct an investigation. The process of searching for a new Senior Minister at Tenth will follow the formal dissolution of the pastoral relationship according to the polity of our denomination.

    This has been difficult news for the Tenth community, and we are experiencing a wide range of emotions. When the Church is confronted by the appearance of sin, her mission is not to abandon people but to work to seek the truth in the situation and encourage any needed repentance and reconciliation with God and one another. We serve a loving God who came into this sinful world in the Person of Jesus Christ in order to save humankind from its sin. As the Apostle Paul said, “in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation” (2 Corinthians 5:19). During this time of trouble and confusion, our only hope at Tenth Church is to humble ourselves, and in repentance and faith seek the mercy of God through Jesus Christ, and to encourage others who struggle with sin in their lives to do the same. It is only by being reconciled to God through Jesus Christ that we can truly be reconciled to one another in this world. Tenth Church asks for prayers to this end.”


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    1 Corinthians 5:11

    But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister [a] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

    [a] The Greek word for brother or sister (adelphos) refers here to a believer, whether man or woman, as part of God’s family; also in 8:11, 13.


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    Ron DiGiacomo: I pray that the imprecatory psalms you’ve been praying aren’t returned unto you.

    Ron, it would not bother me if anyone is praying imprecatory prayers about me. If I have done wrong I welcome any chastisement that God sees fit to deliver to me. I trust God and I know his chastisement of me is for my good.

    If anyone is praying imprecations on me that I do not deserve because I have not done wrong (though the praying person thinks I have done wrong), God will not chastise me; rather, he will deal righteously with those who are mistakenly and or sinfully praying imprecations on me.

    Imprecatory psalms often if not always ask God to scourge the evildoer so that he will come to deep repentance and reformation. They also ask God to protect the oppressed from the evildoers. That is why I’m praying imprecatory psalms for LG and for the leaders at Tenth.


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    Lisa DiGiacomo: We have only two options: We all called to cover a multitude of sins, or we follow Matthew 18. Neither of those options give us liberty to express a bad report to anyone other than the accused, a witness, and then the church

    Lisa, you say we have only two options, but you are wrong. 1 Corinthians 5:11 gives a third option.

    In 1 Cor 5 it’s clear that Paul listened to a report by a third party—people from Chloe’s household. Paul did not tell Chloe she should let her husband deal with the matter. Paul believed the report. I think he knew that the people who made that report were honest, trustworthy and discerning.

    After hearing the report, Paul wrote to the Corinthian congregation sternly admonishing them for tolerating a heinous sinner in their midst. He instructed them to immediately hand that heinous sinner over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. He said it was URGENT that they expel the sinner from the congregation, because if they didn’t his presence would have a deleterious effect on the whole congregation.

    Paul did not tell the people in Chloe’s household that they should follow the steps of Matthew 18.

    Paul didn’t say that a presbytery or the elders needed to do an investigation first.

    Paul did not accuse the people in Chloe’s household of violating the 9th commandment.


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    Karen Walton,

    Bless you Karen. I hear your pain. I believe your testimony. Thank you for inviting me to contact you privately.


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    (1 Cor. 5:11-13) “But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler — not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. Purge the evil person from among you.”

    1 Corinthians 5 tells us there are six sins for which professing believers should be promptly and resolutely disciplined:

    1. fornication — sexual sin
    2. covetousness — greed
    3. idolatry — elevating something other than God to the place that only God can occupy
    4. reviling — assailing with abusive and scornful language, verbal abuse, slander
    5. drunkenness
    6. extortion — snatching, taking by force, predation, rape, plundering, subsisting on live prey.

    We know the church discipline must be total dis-fellowshipping of the hypocrite, because Paul taught this explicitly:

    “When you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. … put away from yourselves that wicked person .” (1 Cor. 5:4–5, 13b).

    Most importantly, we know this to be a commandment to the CHURCH, not just to the individual who has been the victim of the heinous sinner’s conduct.

    And we know that in the case which precipitated the commandment (the man who slept with his father’s wife) Paul had been appraised of the facts (presumably by Chloe’s people 1:11; 5:1). Paul was prepared to credit that report without ascertaining the facts for himself.

    Paul listened to a report from a third party. So let’s ask ourselves – did Paul listen to gossip? Gossip about a man? From the household of a woman? No; it wasn’t gossip. It’s certainly not gossip if you’re a part of the problem or a part of the solution to the problem, and Paul knew that his informants wanted the problem solved – they wanted the sin to be rightly addressed.


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    dee: I have received copies of letters from Karen Walton

    I too have received from Karen copies of those letters. Having read the letters, I have no doubt in my mind that Karen has spoken truthfully in this comments thread.

    I also want to say that I don’t think Karen has monopolised the discussion here.


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    Ron DiGiacomo: The only way I can reconcile not spreading a bad report and dealing with sin in the church is through availing ourselves to the courts of the church.

    Ron, as Dee has rightly told you, Scripture does not use the term “church courts”.

    I’m a Presbyterian and I know the arguments that Presbyterian have for the system of church governance.

    I don’t think it’s helpful for us to debate systems of church governance here. But I do want to point out that any Presbyterian congregation which has had SO MANY abusers in its warp and weft for years (see the GRACE report) has no credibility to urge people to utilise its church courts system.

    Why would people trust the Tenth elders and the Presbytery to handle their complaints and reports in a godly way, when the elders and the Presbytery have been MIShandling things for so long? The GRACE report gives evidence of some of that mishandling, but others on this comments thread have testified that there were more bad things than the GRACE report covered.

    Frankly Ron, when you urge people who have concerns about Tenth to use the church courts system, you sound like a guy who entices school kids into starting off on illicit drugs. The drug user’s trajectory can lead to long term harm to the user. The abused person (or the caring supporter of the abused person) who tries to use the church courts system usually finds that the system is stacked against them and it burns them out.


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    Eyewitness: gave you the authority to circumvent Matt 18 yourself

    Lisa DiGiacomo,

    Exactly, sister Lisa. She is an ordinary believer and you are a recently ex committee member, which is more equal than her. Mt 18 is about going, once, to one’s equal about something that was between you as equals (and in this case it was more between you and your superiors, because you should have been defending the ordinary believers) and bringing in those with responsibilities. You are offputting the public from presbyterian churches.

    Ron DiGiacomo: withhold judgment

    1 – No, not that. But arrive at a tentative provisional one, given the naturally incomplete but apparently moderately sound joint testimony of facts, as far as they went regarding that detail within the significant big picture.

    2 – And it is a too cheap “win” to confine yourself to only part of the detail Barbara cited. Furthermore I have cited Liam’s 2007 interview and several have mentioned how he was persuaded to leave Duke Street (perhaps by outsiders to it). You haven’t mentioned the several misdoing officers at Tenth not dealt with, or whether Liam wanted them dealt with.

    3 – Barbara has exhaustively defended the scope and quality of her logic, and logic (which God created) was supposed to be about honesty, and clearly is so from her, and her piece is not difficult to read. Sitting around waiting for things to become difficult for Presbytery is a pattern, involving more people than only Liam. You may think you represent Presbytery, or a section of it: don’t you think it was up to Presbytery to help Liam get a grip sooner, and help the congregation get rid of the misdoing officers sooner? And if presbytery were genuinely prevented, now is the time for straight criticism of the full background to that. Your shooting the messenger (including indirectly Liam IF he raised all this) is so papist.

    4 – The question doesn’t only encompass who is Liam codependent on, but also who are you codependent on (which both he, and committee members like you, can discern)? If you didn’t invent this mess why condone the people that let it build up over so many years? Some people live their own lies and some people live others’ lies. Was it not up to Liam to decide which, and pull out of the latter, personally helped by friends if he had some?

    5 – Imprecatory psalms are to God to defend us AND the likes of Liam who was apparently tricked into getting out of his depth, from oppressors like (inter) denominational henchpeople. Be careful whom you carelessly assume that to encompass and not encompass.

    6 – I knew people that attended churches around Richmond, and I know people who go to churches similar to Duke St. and similar to Tenth. I’ve also studied the proceedings and outcomes of committee and other joint work, and I have seen false top-down ecumenism, and insecure piety passed down families or groups, in operation.

    7 – Crucially why would you wait for something to be borderline arrestable by LE (irregardless when or if it got known)? Aren’t those bearing responsibility within churches supposed to help resolve all ills and not only those? Why can’t you defend Liam FROM those who really wronged him: i – those who were getting to him in 2007-10, ii – those who carried on misdoing in office on his watch? Just saying like.


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    Michael in UK,

    Does the presbyterian Confession deny Holy Spirit and Ascension? The glory that Jesus is going to get in these days is when the gifts are traded among us unvetoed. Bad church = bad theology, because doctrine is church order and even God is considered bound by it in heaven which is why it SHOULD be discussed. Bad church results in and is contributed to by ad hominem attitudes towards Karen and Barbara.


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    Barbara Roberts: gossip?

    Church leaders pull out the gossip card to shame the pew into not informing and warning others about sin in the camp. Too many are worried about protecting church reputation rather than the precious name of Christ. Sadly, an abuser’s victims are not their priority. What would Jesus do? Shout it from the housetops!


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    Ira: I have not seen any current elder comment on these threads.

    They are not allowed to if my reading of things at Tenth is correct. The wagons circle and they hide out.I am beginning to see why this is the case. There are lots of secrets, aren’t there. #TenthPresbytoo


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    Karen Walton,

    I want

    Michael in UK:
    Michael in UK,

    Does the presbyterian Confession deny Holy Spirit and Ascension?The glory that Jesus is going to get in these days is when the gifts are traded among us unvetoed.Bad church = bad theology, because doctrine is church order and even God is considered bound by it in heaven which is why it SHOULD be discussed.Bad church results in and is contributed to by ad hominem attitudes towards Karen and Barbara.

    Eyewitness: The justification that you give is that she expressed herself publicly, which you say is wrong, but then you express yourself publicly to say that she is wrong to express herself publicly. This is how it looks to someone outside that particular connections.

    to speak with you privately, if you are willing. Everything we speak about will be held confidential unless you tell me otherwise.
    Oh what a tangledweb we weave…


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    David Walton,

    What a wonderful comment. Thank you.

    David Walton: When we were told one of our elders was under arrest for taking pictures up the skirts of minor girls, we were told not to gossip or talk about it with anyone. Even now, the Tenth elders are following the same playbook, not distributing the GRACE report to members and casting doubt on the accuracy of the report available on the Internet. Every crisis is addressed with the goal of protecting the organization and fellow leaders.

    I am interested in learning more about these incidents. Were they ever dealt with? Were the victims informed, and did they receive counseling- the real kind, not the churchy kind?
    Churches that deceive their members often use the word “gossip,” which really means, “Don’t say anything or ask any questions because it is going to cause us(elders) trouble. I recommend that everyone read “The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, https://www.amazon.com/s?k=the+subtle+power+of+spiritual+abuse+by+david+johnson&crid=3COQN5LM6XI7S&sprefix=the+subtle+powe%2Caps%2C107&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_1_15
    It is short and sweet. You will find the problems with “gossip” outlined there.
    Please let me know if I can help in any way.


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    R: When the Church is confronted by the appearance of sin, her mission is not to abandon people but to work to seek the truth in the situation and encourage any needed repentance and reconciliation with God and one another.

    Thank you for posting this statement.

    The statement as a whole frustrates me, because it mentions “appearance of sin” twice without mentioning crime. It’s always good to “work to seek the truth,” but members are not exactly invited to participate in that.

    Why the emphasis on reconciliation? It seems to me that the members are being guided to look at their own sinfulness and ignore any facts to which they might object.

    The statement mentions a “wide range of emotions” but omits a thing: people might have thoughts about facts.

    It’s impossible for me to imagine being a member of this church. If this statement came out of my church, I would have these thoughts. Reconciliation is premature. The congregation needs to learn and discuss facts. The congregation deserves an apology by any who knew about the senior pastor’s shortcomings, or who steadily shielded him against any criticism by holding him in too lofty a regard. People are bound to have various opinions, and they should not be pressured to think with one mind. Let them think, let them feel, let them talk, let them decide how to respond.


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    Friend,

    All applicable in the context of the essay.


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    Just in case anyone thinks that Luther is a cheerleader here, this is what he says in volume 21, page 221 –
    “ Now, anyone who is a Christian must certainly know and feel in himself that such immaculate purity is impossible and that daily the article “the forgiveness of sins” has to rule in us. Therefore it is easy to pardon other people’s faults and to put them all together by saying in the Lord’s Prayer: “Forgive us as we forgive.” This is especially so when it is evident that the other person honors the Word and does not despise or persecute it. Where the Word is, there Christ’s kingdom is, and full forgiveness, which consumes the speck. Therefore, where we notice this, we should not despise or condemn anyone. Otherwise we shall make our own speck a log and fail to obtain forgiveness, because we refuse to forgive other people.
    You may say to this: “Am I not to speak out when an injustice is being done? Am I to call it justice and condone it? Am I to find it pleasing when the properties of the monasteries are seized or when there is coarse behavior and no praying or fasting?” No, I am not telling you to do that. He acknowledges here that there is a speck and that it should be removed; but here He is giving you instructions about doing it properly. I have to admit that it is not very nice, this speck in the eye. But above all I must determine whether I have a log in my own eye, and take that out first. Make the villain in your own breast pious, and then go on to see to it that the little villain becomes pious, too. It is wrong when the big thieves hang the little ones, as the saying goes, and the big villains condemn the little ones.”


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    Lowlandseer: All applicable in the context of the essay.

    “Applicable in the context,” eh? The context is that a ruling elder from one Presbyterian denomination called a rival Presbyterian denomination a harlot.

    Back in the day, I don’t think even Macy’s called Gimbel’s harlot.


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    On Excommunication, from the Book of Church order of the PCA

    30-4. Excommunication is the excision of an offender from the communion
    of the Church. This censure is to be inflicted only on account of gross crime
    or heresy and when the offender shows himself incorrigible and contumacious.
    The design of this censure is to operate on the offender as a means of
    reclaiming him, to deliver the church from the scandal of his offense, and to
    inspire all with fear by the example of his discipline.

    36-6. Excommunication is to be administered according to one or other of
    the two modes laid down for indefinite suspension, or to be inflicted in public
    as the court may decide. In administering this censure the moderator of the
    Session shall make a statement of the several steps which have been taken with
    respect to the offending brother, and of the decision to cut him off from the
    communion of the church. He shall then show from Matthew 18:15-18 and 1
    Corinthians 5:1-5 the authority of the church to cast out unworthy members,
    and shall explain the nature, use and consequences of this censure. He shall
    then administer the censure in the words following:
    Whereas, _________________________, a member of this
    church has been by sufficient proof convicted of the sin of
    _______________________, and after much admonition and
    prayer, obstinately refuses to hear the Church, and has
    manifested no evidence of repentance: Therefore, in the name and
    by the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ, we, the Session of
    ________________________ church do pronounce him to be
    excluded from the Sacraments, and cut off from the fellowship of
    the Church.
    Prayer shall then be made that by God’s blessing this solemn action of
    the court may issue in the repentance and restoration of the offender, and in
    the establishment of all true believers.

    36-7. If the censure includes suspension or excommunication, the moderator
    shall proceed to say:
    We do moreover, by the same authority, suspend the said
    ____________________ from the Sacraments of the Church, until
    he shall exhibit satisfactory evidence of sincere repentance,
    or
    We do moreover, by the same authority, exclude the said
    ____________________ from the Sacraments, and cut him off
    from the fellowship of the Church


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    On removal from the membership roll, from the Book of Church order of the PCA.
    This is apparently different than excommunication.

    38-3. b. When a member or minister of the Presbyterian Church in America
    shall attempt to withdraw from the communion of this branch of the visible
    Church by affiliating with a body judged by the court of original jurisdiction
    as failing to maintain the Word and Sacraments in their fundamental integrity
    (BCO 2-2), that member or minister shall be warned of his danger, and if he
    persists, his name shall be erased from the roll, thereby, so far as the
    Presbyterian Church in America is concerned, he is deemed no longer to be a
    member in any body which rightly maintains the Word and Sacraments in their
    fundamental integrity, and if an officer, thereby withdrawing from him all
    authority to exercise his office as derived from this Church. When so acting
    the court shall make full record of the matter and shall notify the offender of
    its action.

    38-4. When a member of a particular church has willfully neglected the
    church for a period of one year, or has made it known that he has no intention
    of fulfilling the church vows, then the Session, continuing to exercise pastoral
    discipline (BCO 27-1a and 27-4) in the spirit of Galatians 6:1, shall remind the
    member, if possible both in person and in writing, of the declarations and
    promises by which he entered into a solemn covenant with God and His
    Church (BCO 57-5, nos. 3-5), and warn him that, if he persists, his name shall
    be erased from the roll.
    If after diligently pursuing such pastoral discipline, and after further
    inquiry and due delay, the Session is of the judgment that the member will not
    fulfill his membership obligations in this or any other branch of the Visible
    Church (cf. BCO 2-2), then the Session shall erase his name from the roll. This
    erasure is an act of pastoral discipline (BCO 27-1a) without process. The
    Session shall notify the person, if possible, whose name has been removed.
    Notwithstanding the above, if a member thus warned makes a written
    request for process (i.e., BCO Chapters 31-33, 35-36), the Session shall grant
    such a request. Further, if the Session determines that any offense of such a
    member is of the nature that process is necessary, the Session may institute
    such process.

    46-2. The name of any member whose residence has been unknown for one
    year to the Session shall be removed from the roll and such names are not to
    be counted in the annual statistical reports, though act of removal should be
    recorded in the Session’s minutes. If such a person at a later date should appear
    or desire transfer of his or her letter, the Session will inform the governing
    body of the inquiring church of their action in removing said person from their
    roll.


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    I assume most commenters over here probably aren’t big fans of the popular Reformed and/or Calvinistic websites, but as a frequenter of them myself, I’ve been puzzled by the utter silence and “business as usual” approach after the scandals at Tenth were brought to light (GRACE report) and then with LG’s infidelity and subsequent cover-up being made public, culminating in his sudden resignation.

    Make what you will of Ref21 and Rev. Mark Jones, but I appreciate them at least having the care and guts to address the elephant in the room which many in the tiny P&R world I inhabit aren’t doing right now (https://www.reformation21.org/blog/when-a-pastor-falls).

    May the Good Shepherd care for his wounded sheep and, yes, even the wayward ones, while exposing and protecting them from wolves.


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    David Walton: Like many women in the church, my wife has been told to be silent far too often. She doesn’t need my permission to speak, but I admire and applaud her for it.

    Thank you Dave Walton! I loved all your comment, but I’m quoting only this part of it so that my comment isn’t too long.


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    Ira: For the sake of clarity, Goligher and Elzey were cited separately but under the same exact Incident number. They were the only two involved in that Incident. The sexual act was clearly the two of them together.
    … It appears that Ron, by his own admission, left Tenth and eldership years ago.

    Thank you for clarifying my words.

    Yes, since I wrote that comment of mine I have seen that Ron commented saying he is no longer at Tenth.


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    I’ve known Tenth for going on 50 years. Not a member, but connections in various ways. This is a great grief. For the church itself, yes; how sad if it ceased to be. I and my children have been blessed by her ministry.

    But how much greater is the grief for the women, children and men who have been demeaned and abused, shamed and dismissed by so-called elders, whether wicked or ignorant, caught up in their own position and power. No historic building or music ministry, groups or preaching, are worth discouraging people’s faith and breaking their hearts. Hiding their sin and punishing those who uncover it adds insult to injury.

    Unfortunately, I, members of my family, friends, people I have been blessed to minister to,have been through this to one degree or another. Based on my experience and that of many people I know, it will take a long time for Tenth to deal with this. It will take turning in repentance that for men and women who have been this wise in their own eyes, foolish, lording it over the very sheep they were to care for, this far from Jesus, will be very difficult. And it may be too late for the survival of Tenth. Bad (under)shepherds. Did they really think the Shepherd would not see and come to rescue his sheep? They will be subject and are already, to an extent, to the discipline from the Lord himself that they would not place on their own ilk.

    And who is this Ron DiGiacomo? Or his wife? How bold she is, for such a submissive wife. Who appointed her? And Ron?

    The Aquila report says that Ron is a PCA Ruling Elder in the Philadelphia Presbytery. Here’s the article I found: https://theaquilareport.com/seeds-of-apostasy-and-congregant-responsibility/. He’s some kind of an expert on elders, I guess, but I don’t find much about him on his own website.

    Now my question is, if he’s such a good elder who can speak with such authority to people he does not know or have care of at present, in what church is he under care? It’s been a while since I’ve read the BOC cover to cover, but in chapters 24 and 46? if I’m not mistaken, if he (and his wife) left Tenth in good standing they should be under care of a session in another PCA congregation. I certainly don’t know as much as he seems to think he does, but it’s teaching elders, not ruling elders, who are members of Presbytery. What does he not want people to know? No theological education is required to be an RE. He does not list any, and I might even have more than he does. He writes like someone who is educated, but that is not required, as it is spiritual qualification that matters for the office. If he left Tenth not in good standing and was not received into the care of another session, how can he continue to claim the status of RE? By default, if I’m not wrong, he can’t. Besides, REs have no authority over anyone except the members of their own church. He can’t tell me what to do in the PCA. That’s for my own elders.

    Knowledge puffs up, but Love builds up. Where is the Love beyond his claim to it? Who appointed Ron to be Lawgiver and Judge? And who asked his wife? James had strong words for the Christians he wrote to. Ron, I’m betting that you are reading this, why don’t you go ahead and read James, and instruct your wife, like a good spiritual head?

    To me this Ron person reads like so many of the converts to the Reformed Faith I have known who think that by reading Reformed theology, adopting a persona and tone of gravitas, speaking their code, writing their theological opinions to be read and approved by people just like them, and imposing them on everyone else, that makes them the real thing. Calvinistas, you all would say. I’ve been lurking on the Wartburg Watch for a long time. Since Iain Campbell, the NYTimes article, which came first? I haven’t stuck my neck out yet, but as a Calvinist and Presbyterian, the only thing that bothers me more than a Calvinista in a Southern Baptist Church, imposing their weird, legalistic version of what is a distinctive, not an essential, that they don’t even understand, on Christians who don’t want it, is a Calvinista in a Presbyterian church harassing and oppressing the sheep.

    It’s happened to me. Lovely old churches have been ruined by people like this. I cringe at the pain caused to many on this blog by these pretenders.

    I am a cradle Presbyterian, a blood descendant of the Reformers who suffered persecution for their faith, fled tyrants and slaughter, were imprisoned or banished to the colonies. They left everything they had behind and brought their most precious treasure, the gospel of Jesus Christ, to the New World, not grand fortresses to be defended. I do get tired of being told about my faith and practice by converts. And I have never known true children of God or shepherds with a heart for the flock who write like these. No, these people sound more like Pharisees than friends.

    Tenth has failed her people, and so the people must speak and not allow themselves to be put under a yoke of slavery and shut down. It is for freedom that Christ set us free. The only thing that matters is faith expressing itself in love. I appreciate very much the people that try to do that on the Wartburg Watch. And especially Dee. I know that this is very, very hard work.


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    Haha, it’s been that long, BCO


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    Brandon M.:
    I assume most commenters over here probably aren’t big fans of the popular Reformed and/or Calvinistic websites, but as a frequenter of them myself, I’ve been puzzled by the utter silence and “business as usual” approach after the scandals at Tenth were brought to light (GRACE report) and then with LG’s infidelity and subsequent cover-up being made public, culminating in his sudden resignation.

    Make what you will of Ref21 and Rev. Mark Jones, but I appreciate them at least having the care and guts to address the elephant in the room which many in the tiny P&R world I inhabit aren’t doing right now (https://www.reformation21.org/blog/when-a-pastor-falls).

    May the Good Shepherd care for his wounded sheep and, yes, even the wayward ones, while exposing and protecting them from wolves.

    Brandon, thanks for mentioning Reformation21. I have not checked them. But I too have been dismayed at the silence out there in Reformed world. Considering Ref21’s connection to Tenth and Liam, kudos.


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    David Walton: 2. The member tells one or more elders about what they experienced.
    3a. They never hear anything again, OR

    As a teen, abused by a volunteer at a church not unlike Tenth, I accidentally divulged the molestation to the youth pastor (I thought the volunteer was my boyfriend). I never heard anything again. The volunteer suddenly stopped working with the youth program, but he continued to hang out with the teens at Sunday coffee hour, and to give me absolutely hateful stares. I gathered that he was told not to talk to me anymore.

    Only as a grown woman did I realize he probably had more victims.


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    Barbara Roberts,

    Dear all
    I have now read some clauses in the Book of Church Order (BCO) which would seem to pertain to what Tenth did to Karen and Dave.

    Karen has told us in this comments thread that she and her husband were excommunicated by Tenth.

    I have seen two letters which Karen sent to me — letters that Tenth had sent to her. It seems to me, now, that Tenth did not actually ‘excommunicate’ Karen and Dave from Tenth, using the definition of excommunication found in the BCO.

    It seems to me that Tenth Session removed Karen and Dave’s names from Tenth Presbyterian’s church membership roll, and told Karen and Dave that they would no longer be considered as living in accordance with the vows of membership that people take when becoming members in the PCA, therefore Session did not consider that they were living in accord with the doctrines of the national PCA church. That is my own wording, with me trying to simplify and clarify what happened, for a lay person’s understanding.

    I can understand why Karen felt and believed they had ‘excommunicated’ her.

    The problem is that the men on Session and the Session Clerk use language from the BCO. To them, that language makes sense and has clear, well-defined meaning. There are several different kinds or subsets of “discipline” as defined in the BCO. To lay people in the pews, all that language sounds like jargon: mucus-clogged management speak. A lay person can easily think that Session meant “We are excommunicating you.” And the Clerk of Session may not bothered to think about how his wording could be easily misunderstood by his lay readers.

    The possibility of misunderstanding between lay people and jargon-competent, self-protecting-risk-averse Session Clerks becomes even more likely when the lay people are already — rightly! — feeling very distressed because the Session has been blowing off their concerns about abuse and coverups in leadership, and in addition the lay people are under emotional stress as they try to figure out how to respond to their child’s wish to transition to the opposite sex.

    Leaders will be held to a higher account.

    It is the obligation and duty of Session and Session Clerks to take great pains in explaining what their BCO legalistic language means, when they are telling a lay person that they name has been removed from the church membership roll. The same goes when they are delivering any other sub-type of church discipline to a lay member of the church.

    If would be reasonable for Session Clerks to use BCO language, so long as they then explain in lay-men’s terms what that means to their lay reader, so that the lay person has a better likelihood of understanding what the Session has done, and less likelihood of jumping to what might be mistaken conclusions.

    Let us imagine a Session Clerk explaining in his letter to the lay members: “You are not being formally excommunicated. Your names have simply been removed from the church membership roll. And because you have chosen to go to another church denomination which affirms doctrines and practices that the PCA stands against, you have, by your actions, indicated that you no longer can be considered to walking consistent with PCA doctrine and practice.” Such an explanation might be very helpful to the lay people who were being disciplined.

    I know that BCO language has precise meanings and is therefore useful in a ‘church court’ system of governance. But when it is quoted in letters to laypeople who are under church discipline, it can easily do more harm than good unless it’s also translated into lay-men’s language. And, in any such letter sent by a Session to the layperson, the letter should invite the layperson to put in their own words what they think the letter means. That way, when the Session Clerk hears the layperson’s own words, the Clerk can either affirm that the lay person has rightly understood the Session’s decision, or he can clarify any misunderstanding that the lay person has about what the Session’s decision actually means.

    All of which would be asking a LOT of Session Clerks. In my opinion and my experience of presby churches, most Session Clerks would not want to (or be able to?) to do that.

    And that is one reason why the church courts system is stacked against the pew-sitter.


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    Very interesting post about the abuses in Proclamation Presbyterian over at Anglican Watch.

    https://www.anglicanwatch.com/proclamation-presbyterian-another-sordid-mess-in-pca-emerges/

    The post starts out:

    “We are reposting this comment, because it offers valuable insight into misconduct at Proclamation Presbyterian in Bryn Mawr and the larger PCA.

    ###

    You wanted some tips re Proclamation Presbyterian Church. Here they are:

    After this short narrative there is a letter below from February, 2022 that was written to and received by the congregation of Proclamation outlining sexual misconduct of an Elder/Administrator and the cover-up by the Pastors and Elders. The letter was written by a former Elder who left the church when the Session of Elders refused to conduct an investigation. This sordid situation is similar to the one at Tenth Presbyterian with their former Music Director:
    Like Tenth, the sexual misconduct went on for years
    Like Tenth, it was covered up by the Pastors and Elders
    Like Tenth the Elders took no action to protect the congregation
    Like Tenth, the sexual offender was allowed to resign/retire
    Like Tenth, the Pastors and Elders gave the sexual offender a celebratory reception when he resigned/retired
    Like Tenth, the Presbytery responsible for Proclamation (Philadelphia
    Metro West Presbytery) reviewed what happened and nothing was done
    to discipline or remove any Pastors or Elders for their sinful/incompetent behavior.

    Here is the letter from the former Elder to the Proclamation congregation outlining the entire sordid mess…”


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    LIsa DiGiacomo,

    Blaspheming the scriptures now by misapplying the phrases which are in the catechism for a truer purpose.

    Does Pastor Liam know you are doing that? Because he should correct you. He is a well regarded bible college teacher and knows the truth.


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    Barbara Roberts,

    A general query? Does “excommunicated” have anything to do with “communion” ceremonies? At the church which (I think) I’m a member of, I decline to partake in their occasional ceremony for reasons of conscience connected with the false top-down ecumenism that is now everywhere. No-one has ever advanced convincing reasons against anyone making “spiritual communion” in any church. Would Tenth hold “communion” ceremonies and would it be thought odd of anyone to not partake?


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    Michael in UK:
    LIsa DiGiacomo,

    Blaspheming the scriptures now by misapplying the phrases which are in the catechism for a truer purpose.

    Does Pastor Liam know you are doing that?Because he should correct you.He is a well regarded bible college teacher and knows the truth.

    Michael, agreed! Thank you. Liam’s a sinner who needs repentence and faith, but he does know the scripture and the Standards. These people? They are bearing false witness to both.


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    David Walton: Even now, the Tenth elders are following the same playbook, not distributing the GRACE report to members and casting doubt on the accuracy of the report available on the Internet. Every crisis is addressed with the goal of protecting the organization and fellow leaders.

    I think keeping the church from being sued into oblivion by not publishing the GRACE report but letting every member read it is not really a “playbook” and it seems like it protects the members from wasting their donations on legal fees and judgements which the church already suffered by speaking too “transparently” about the Paul Jones case.


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    In talking to people who know about the Elzey’s i’ve heard GOSSIP that is unverified and unprovable and speculative and monstrous. It violates the 9th commandment. But it spreads anyway.

    Telling people not to gossip seems very prudent. They’ll do it anyway but its good to warn people


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    I wonder sometimes if anyone here has ever served on a jury? Are juries given “transparent” information? Or are they sometimes told to “ignore” things said in court they can’t hear because its prejudicial. Or sometimes, evidence is kept from them entirely!

    Seems like a good idea. But if you’re not told everything in a Jury trial, are you being deceived? is the Judge “protecting the institution” or is she protecting the rights of the accused? What if the accused did it? do they have rights? who knows?


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    Ker: Michael, agreed! Thank you. Liam’s a sinner who needs repentence and faith, but he does know the scripture and the Standards. These people? They are bearing false witness to both.

    I second that!


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    Michael in UK: A general query? Does “excommunicated” have anything to do with “communion” ceremonies? At the church which (I think) I’m a member of, I decline to partake in their occasional ceremony for reasons of conscience connected with the false top-down ecumenism that is now everywhere. No-one has ever advanced convincing reasons against anyone making “spiritual communion” in any church. Would Tenth hold “communion” ceremonies and would it be thought odd of anyone to not partake?

    Hi Michael,
    I am replying from my own understanding of how Presbyterians say and do things, rather than from any detailed study on my part about how BCO might answer your question.

    I’m not sure whether by “communion ceremonies” you mean the table of the Lord’s Supper. When a Presbyterians excommunicate a person, that always bars that person from the table of the Lord’s Supper in churches that belong to that particular Presbyterian denomination, but it may more than that too — for example, it may also mean that the person is no longer welcome to attend that congregation.

    As you probably know, there are many different denominations and micro-denominations that are Presbyterian.


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    Michael in UK:
    Barbara Roberts,

    A general query?Does “excommunicated” have anything to do with “communion” ceremonies?At the church which (I think) I’m a member of, I decline to partake in their occasional ceremony for reasons of conscience connected with the false top-down ecumenism that is now everywhere.No-one has ever advanced convincing reasons against anyone making “spiritual communion” in any church.Would Tenth hold “communion” ceremonies and would it be thought odd of anyone to not partake?

    Excommunication is an extensive legal proceeding and this is not in fact what technically happened to Karen & David…

    it has nothing to do with communion. Communion is handed around once a month during a service, and no one keeps track of who does and doesn’t partake. It is up to each person, and it is seen as serious if one partakes if one’s heart is not right.


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    Michael in UK:
    Barbara Roberts,

    A general query?Does “excommunicated” have anything to do with “communion” ceremonies?At the church which (I think) I’m a member of, I decline to partake in their occasional ceremony for reasons of conscience connected with the false top-down ecumenism that is now everywhere.No-one has ever advanced convincing reasons against anyone making “spiritual communion” in any church.Would Tenth hold “communion” ceremonies and would it be thought odd of anyone to not partake?

    Sorry, I mispoke out of misunderstanding.

    Here’s the PCA’s BCO on removal of sacraments from a person:

    30-1. The censures, which may be inflicted by church courts, are
    admonition, suspension from the Sacraments, excommunication, suspension
    from office, and deposition from office

    30-3. Suspension from Sacraments is the temporary exclusion from those
    ordinances, and is indefinite as to its duration. There is no definite suspension
    from the Sacraments.

    37-2. After any person has been indefinitely suspended from the
    Sacraments, it is proper that the rulers of the church should frequently converse
    with him as well as pray with him and for him, that it would please God to give
    him repentance

    … One can be removed from this without being excommunicated. Excommunication is more seriousand means the person is not allowed back in at all…


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    Post over at Anglican Watch by UK voice:

    https://www.anglicanwatch.com/tenth-presbyterian-ignores-grace-reports-schedules-problematic-pastor-to-preach-this-sunday/#comment-935

    “I have noticed with interest the contrasting reports over on Wartburg Watch about Liam being “an angel” versus someone who drove families away from the church, I can only say that the same was true in the UK.

    Liam’s tangible, unequivocal confidence in the goodness and grace of God was refreshing. And if you were on the same theological path as Liam and appreciated his preaching, then he was wonderful – responsive and supportive. He was, however, socially awkward and struggled with small talk. That bothered those who wanted a Pastor not a Preacher. And those who would challenge and criticise him faced a very different Liam. I found it really hard to believe their stories – such was the contrast – but they were clearly hurt, wounded… and livid. Most of the Credo-Baptists felt betrayed by his moving theological stance and grew to hate him, vowing not to return while he remained Minister.

    As regards Liam’s directive to protect Jones’ reputation, I think Ryken had an enormous influence on Liam so I dare say the reason for the discretion/cover up of Jones was out of loyalty to Ryken (who had, after all, allowed Jones to stay on for a decade). His friendships/loyalties to the Elders and others would have led to the further cover ups trying to “protect the good reputation” of these men. His own fall’s consequences will have panicked him and furthered a need for secrecy.

    Phil Snyder and others were clearly treated poorly when all they wanted was transparency and accountability. I have read comments from Tenth people which suggest Phil’s rather provocative response made him appear unstable rather than a truth teller, but the truth is now out. I hope all whistleblowers will be welcomed back into the church – with penitence on the part of the church.

    I pray for the church body, and for transparency and humble leadership going forward.

    p.s.
    Liam always felt underappreciated in the UK and yearned for the limelight, but he was also humble – he’d serve and wash up coffee, and help clean the toilets. We watched the interview with Tenth and felt he was out of his depth (e.g. flippant) yet the church still took him. The appointment to Tenth certainly fed his ego.

    Liam was always a bit of a flirt and inappropriate with women. His immaturity with women combined with a predatory female would explain the sexual infidelity. He is (as are we all) a flawed individual. He is not evil, he is weak. And he fell. And a panicked, weak person cannot afford to be transparent but becomes defensive and aggressive. (I do think it possible that being “caught out” scared him, and put an end to the sexual element in his relationship with Susan Elzey. They may well have moved on to a pact of silence and mutual support).

    Quite how he carried on preaching Law obedience though, for 9 more years, is beyond me!”


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    Ker: I’ve known Tenth for going on 50 years. Not a member, but connections in various ways. This is a great grief. For the church itself, yes; how sad if it ceased to be. … But how much greater is the grief for the women, children and men who have been demeaned and abused, shamed and dismissed by so-called elders, whether wicked or ignorant, caught up in their own position and power. …

    … it will take a long time for Tenth to deal with this. … And it may be too late for the survival of Tenth. Bad (under)shepherds. Did they really think the Shepherd would not see and come to rescue his sheep? They will be subject and are already, to an extent, to the discipline from the Lord himself that they would not place on their own ilk.

    And who is this Ron DiGiacomo? … The Aquila report says that Ron is a PCA Ruling Elder in the Philadelphia Presbytery. …

    Now my question is, if he’s such a good elder who can speak with such authority to people he does not know or have care of at present, in what church is he under care? …

    Knowledge puffs up, but Love builds up. Where is the Love beyond his claim to it? Who appointed Ron to be Lawgiver and Judge? …

    To me this Ron person reads like so many of the converts to the Reformed Faith I have known who think that by reading Reformed theology, adopting a persona and tone of gravitas, speaking their code, writing their theological opinions to be read and approved by people just like them, and imposing them on everyone else, that makes them the real thing. … I’ve been lurking on the Wartburg Watch for a long time. Since Iain Campbell, the NYTimes article, which came first? …

    It’s happened to me. Lovely old churches have been ruined by people like this. I cringe at the pain caused to many on this blog by these pretenders. …

    Tenth has failed her people, and so the people must speak and not allow themselves to be put under a yoke of slavery and shut down. It is for freedom that Christ set us free. The only thing that matters is faith expressing itself in love. I appreciate very much the people that try to do that on the Wartburg Watch. And especially Dee. I know that this is very, very hard work.

    Yes! All this! Thank you Ker for your heart-stirring words. I believe you. I feel for you. Thank you for your prophetic voice!

    The grief, the greater grief for those who have been wounded by wolves and Pharisees and hypocrites at Tenth AND the Presbytery which is tasked with overseeing Tenth.

    May all who have sinned or turned a blind eye to sin repent! May God bring His wrath down upon their heads so that they feel heavy grinding conviction of sin and come out of their blind-leading–blind games. May they be threshed on His threshing floor in the hope that they will come to repentance. Let every last grain be crushed so that it will shed its hard husk … and if there is any kernel of wheat worth saving, let the husks be winnowed away and a remnant crop be saved.

    Ker, you are correct that Ron DiGiacomo’s website tells us very little about him. Here’s the link to Ron’s website, for those who want it: https://philosophical-theology.com/

    I have noted that Lisa DiGiacomo has made no reply to my rebuttal of her claim that there are only two options in dealing with sin in a fellow believer. Lisa, your non reply shows me that my rebuttal was biblically sound and you cannot push back against it.

    The Shepherd WILL see and come to rescue his sheep. The Shepherd DOES see and IS rescuing his sheep.

    When the broken lamb is rescued by the Good Shepherd, and the Shepherd carries the lamb in His arms, the lamb may be lacerated, have broken bones, and have been deeply traumatised by what had happened to it. The lamb may not remember all the bad things that had happened because those memories have blocked out. The lamb may have PTSD or C-PTSD. The lamb may not even be conscious that the Shepherd is carrying it in His arms. The lamb may have swooned, be unconscious and barely breathing. Or the lamb’s eyes may be stuck wide open in incomprehending terror. Nevertheless, the Shepherd is carrying it, and He will heal all its wounds, either in this life or the life to come.


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    R,

    Thank you Micheal! Bless you. 🙂


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    Barbara Roberts,

    Barbara, thank you for your kind, encouraging words. I appreciate you, too, and your care for your fellow travelers on this side of the planet!


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    R: how he carried on preaching Law obedience though, for 9 more years, is beyond me!

    Only in the flesh, drawing on his intellect, theological training, and gift of gab … a narcissistic pastor who bullied staff and failed morally preached not by the Holy Spirit. Many more like Mr. Goligher populate the church in America. We mistake the ability to speak with anointing.


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    Guest,

    It’s sick!!! How can that man preach about this person sleeping with that person or this person and this pastor been doing this himself. I work at Tenth Presbyterian Church for almost 16 years. And I know what bullying means at Tenth. I went through it at tenth 8 years. I’m doing my best to stay away from Tenth now. I still feel that evil when I do come back for a visit at Tenth. Too much evil. I never trusted any of the pastors, elders or deacons or a lot of the members. I would never go to any of them for help. There was a few good ones then. Don’t know about now. There is a black cloud still hanging over Tenth. What needs to happen is get read of all the old news leaders and have new leaders. Then maybe things will get better. I may have forgiven those evil doers years ago. But I have not forgotten. But I still pray for them now today 2023. Lord Jesus send a pastor that doesn’t follow evildoers and bullies please!!!!!


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    Barbara Roberts:
    Barbara Roberts,

    It seems to me, now, that Tenth did not actually ‘excommunicate’ Karen and Dave from Tenth, using the definition of excommunication found in the BCO.

    I can understand why Karen felt and believed they had ‘excommunicated’ her.

    The problem is that the men on Session and the Session Clerk use language from the BCO.

    the Clerk of Session may not bothered to think about how his wording could be easily misunderstood by his lay readers.

    Karen and I are just discovering through this interaction that the Tenth elders claim that what did to us is not *technically* called excommunication. I’d like to state it more strongly than Barbara does above, though: no matter what they call it, they excommunicated us by any reasonable understanding of the word. Here are some quotes from the letters they sent us:

    “Should you choose to flee the jurisdiction of our church and seek fellowship in any church that affirms any LGBTQ identity and is therefore not a true church of the Lord Jesus Christ…you will be cut off from the true fellowship of Christ’s body.”

    “As you have decided to affiliate with a body judged by the court as failing to maintain the Word and Sacraments…your names are erased from the church rolls. To erase the names means you have not fulfilled your membership obligations in this or any other branch of the Visible Church.”

    “You are deemed no longer to be a member in any body which rightly maintains the Word and Sacrament.”

    Whatever they call it, our church leaders are telling us that we are no longer part of Christianity as they define it. (And also, by the way, that the entire church we are now attending and thousands of other churches around the country aren’t part of Christianity either.) The letters are brutal in their legal formality and pronouncements of hellfire. (“We remind you that our Lord does not deal kindly with those who lead their children astray, but instead will dole out greater punishment on the last day.”)

    So if according to the technicalities of the BCO, this isn’t technically excommunication, that is a distinction without a difference. With forceful and violent language, we have been expelled and proclaimed to be out of the faith. Their letters tell us we are excommunicated as any reasonable person would understand it. Karen and I and our children have certainly felt excommunicated when receiving them. For them to come back months later and say, “Oh no, we didn’t excommunicate them, we simply removed them from our membership rolls” totally belies the nature of the experience.


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    David Walton,

    David and Karen,

    If it is any comfort, I want to attest that your instincts are correct, and confirm what you already know — that the judgments of the men on the Session of 10th Presbyterian are merely the judgments of the men on the Session of 10th Presbyterian, neither more (they are *not* the Lord Jesus’ perspective) nor less (they still carry the ability to wound and hurt, as any form of human betrayal does) than that. Good for you for seeing right through their self-important and manipulative doublespeak. God bless you both.
    ~ A former pastor in the Philadelphia Presbytery.


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    David Walton: “Should you choose to flee the jurisdiction of our church and seek fellowship in any church that affirms any LGBTQ identity and is therefore not a true church of the Lord Jesus Christ…you will be cut off from the true fellowship of Christ’s body.”

    “As you have decided to affiliate with a body judged by the court as failing to maintain the Word and Sacraments…your names are erased from the church rolls. To erase the names means you have not fulfilled your membership obligations in this or any other branch of the Visible Church.”

    “You are deemed no longer to be a member in any body which rightly maintains the Word and Sacrament.”

    I am amazed at the arrogance! These churches seek to assert that they, and only they, know who is “in” and who is “out”. They forget Romans 11:32. We may cry “foul” but it is God’s right to show mercy to whomsoever he wills (Exodus 33:19) – we don’t get a say. A lot of people don’t like a God like that, but hey, get over it. God may already have decided to have compassion on LGBTQs – so how dare I presume to declare them outside of his grace? it’s God’s call.


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    Confused: These churches seek to assert that they, and only they, know who is “in” and who is “out”.

    That’s because they have usurped the authority of Christ over ‘His’ church. Jesus has no authority or influence in much of the institutional church. We have chosen to run church with rigid rules and regulations crafted by men, rather than by the loving hand of Christ. Illegitimate authority rules where men decide who is “in” and who is “out”, especially where “out” means that someone challenged them with truth.

    Being cast out of church by such systems can be a good thing! When the blind man healed by Jesus gave his testimony of truth about how he was healed, church authorities threw him out of church. Scripture records that Jesus went looking for him. If you have been shunned and excommunicated for standing on truth, congratulations! Jesus will come looking for you!


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    David Walton,

    I read those emails. IMO, they are discussing excommunication. Perhpas the working is such that they have plausible deniability. They played games with the lives of their congregants. What did Jesus call people like them? Whitewashed tombs, snakes, vipers, etc.


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    Jennifer: I work at Tenth Presbyterian Church for almost 16 years. And I know what bullying means at Tenth. I went through it at tenth 8 years.

    I am so sorry for the pain that you experienced from this church. I am beginning to think this church is made up of pastors/elders who are involved in all sorts of things and who enjoy the process of punishing people. Perhaps it makes them feel “holy.” I wonder how they overlook their own sins?
    Please let me know if I can be of any help to you. My heart goes out to you.


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    David Walton: For them to come back months later and say, “Oh no, we didn’t excommunicate them, we simply removed them from our membership rolls” totally belies the nature of the experience.

    They didn’t even say that. They said you asked to be dropped from membership. They never admitted they removed you. According to Karen, you said you didnt want to be members AFTER they had already removed you from membership via that letter.

    If you had said you didn’t want to be members after receiving the warning letter, before they had sent you the removal letter, then that in and of itself would be reason for discipline, since you were already being warned of being disciplined. This is according to the BCO. Karen mentioned this, and I confirmed it by reading the BCO.


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    Max: Being cast out of church by such systems can be a good thing! When the blind man healed by Jesus gave his testimony of truth about how he was healed, church authorities threw him out of church. Scripture records that Jesus went looking for him. If you have been shunned and excommunicated for standing on truth, congratulations! Jesus will come looking for you!

    Oh I loved this comment!


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    Jennifer: ,

    I work at Tenth Presbyterian Church for almost 16 years. And I know what bullying means at Tenth. I went through it at tenth 8 years. I’m doing my best to stay away from Tenth now. I still feel that evil when I do come back for a visit at Tenth. Too much evil. I never trusted any of the pastors, elders or deacons or a lot of the members. I would never go to any of them for help. There was a few good ones then. Don’t know about now. There is a black cloud still hanging over Tenth.

    I am so sorry you were bullied while working there. I can relate. I think it is best to distance from any place which would abuse its’ people in such way. A danger is that abuse is normalized in such a culture, and people who are being abused sometimes develop Stockholm syndrome, and/or excuse what is happening to them! Sometimes it is because the community they found there is the only community they know and they can’t bear the thought of losing it. I wonder how you endured it for 8 years — sounds very painful.


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    R,

    So the two operative stages are i – suspension from sacrament, and ii – removal from roll.

    Is one allowed to be on the roll if one believes in regularly sitting out from sacrament? Or is sacrament compulsory to be on the roll? Or does that vary from congregation to congregation?


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    R: coffee

    But we need to smell it. I knew a prominent couple who swept a church; I haven’t figured out why they were so on / off and no-one else would admit to have noticed.

    People who are continually short circuiting burn out everyone around them after twenty, forty, sixty years.

    On page 37 of ‘The fellowship of the King’ by Liam Goligher it says, rightly:

    ‘For the New Testament writers, wrong behaviour follows from wrong belief.’

    If he had applied this to what he saw IN TENTH in 2010, why did he accept this assignment? Why would they be teachable? Why would they extend him genuine fellowship? Is there prayer at Tenth, or Duke Street?

    Lack of prayer leads to vagueness and vagueness leads to confusion about whether one is appreciated or not and whether that is a good or bad thing. If presbyterians have everything in the bag I don’t see why they would teach each other to pray. Theirs (and denominational segments that copy them) is a less-than gospel. (I think John Knox, and Spurgeon, and MLJ are a cut above.)

    Fundamentals as marketing maximums one is foreordained to fall short of (“what you see is more than you’ll get”); Jesus left us permanently depraved. Contrast some obscure person they haven’t heard of, many times punished in shame: “love believes all things”. More Scripture: “Love casts out fear” and “what * is not of faith is sin” and “pray without ceasing”.

    { * e.g floor sweeping }

    In the same book LG gets going-the-extra-mile wrong: Jesus was teaching us to deflect the cynicism of the oppressor back in their faces.

    What really did they teach at his grandmother’s church, or at Liam’s churches prior to Duke Street?


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    Michael in UK:
    R,

    So the two operative stages are i – suspension from sacrament, and ii – removal from roll.

    Is one allowed to be on the roll if one believes in regularly sitting out from sacrament?Or is sacrament compulsory to be on the roll?Or does that vary from congregation to congregation?

    I have never heard of partaking in the Lord’s Supprt being mandaotory for membership. In any church I have ever been part of, no one was watching. But in order to be a member (on the “roll”), there is an understanding of who Jesus is that would need to be shown, and a profession of faith, and a baptism at some point, and an agreement with certain theologies of that church. One would be expected to partake in the Lord’s Supper as a norm, but but in no church have I ever seen anyone ever watching. Maybe the Catholic church is different? In that church people go up to the front to take communion so it it obvious if someone does not go.

    Partaking in the Lord’s Supper is something one does in remembrance of what Jesus did for us. The only reason a person would not partake would typically be because they do not believe it, or their heart is not in a good place that week. There are scriptures whih provide guidance around this. It is not to be done flippantly.


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    Michael in UK:
    R,

    Sorry for typos. My computer got messed up.


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    R,

    “Partaking in the Lord’s Supper is something one does in remembrance of what Jesus did for us. The only reason a person would not partake would typically be because they do not believe it, or their heart is not in a good place that week.”
    +++++++++++

    i’ve opted out of it – too much pressure. it turns into a show, like a standing ovation – there’s a peer pressure element to it, & i reckon many people end up going through the motions simply to look the part.

    i refuse to insult a deep truth in that way. and the pretense that we even begin to understand it.


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    R,

    Customarily in the RC up to some time ago, no-one “took any notice” of someone that didn’t “go up”. Most people sat out most weeks, till communion was made more or less compulsory (I think that was seen as a sort of political fix) (but it has rebounded in that it no longer affords public figures with “anti catholic policies” the tactful cover of doing one of the normal-looking things).

    Of late I’ve had arms waved at me in Roman churches since I reverted to my sounder childhood habits, as well as in protestant ones. The old idea of queueing used to be that one used one’s discretion and initiative to partake of elements or not.

    Though my family were in our unique sub subculture we really had highly normal religion in lots of ways (dad would “go up” often, mum never, but she would tell us to a few times a year – when not crowded!) One’s style of spirituality in those days really was individual and varied.

    (I’m not going to comment on the various permutations of staying in pew.)

    The only ordinance Jesus gave (other than baptism) was to remember the gifts in the other members of His Body (but I didn’t understand this till recently), something apparently no longer believed in due to the effects of debased top down “Reformed” (and lookalikes) and debased top down ecumenism alike (both equally assurance-less). Someone’s conscience may eventually spark others’ conscience to critique at least the pointless signalling; we can’t deduce official meanings any more than individuals’ ones. Spiritual communion has always had value. If my membership is confirmed I’ll “skip communion week” sometimes in case!


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    elastigirl,

    Like you I’m not into “provoking” people bigger than me into “assuming” that I’m causing a stir. The relevance to these Tenth threads is that there ought to be scope for protection from being wrong footed by conspicuous exclusion by authority figures from a sentimental set point. If on random occasions skipping the sacrament, for one’s own myriad reasons or none, took precedence, the church wouldn’t have the scope to throw its weight around by it.


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    Michael in UK,

    Already before Augustine the mystique of clergy ordination came from their being the ones through whom communion in the elements came (by consecration) – then later the mystique of communion was that it came through clergy (consecration OR no consecration). Communion was the bond of Jewish christians with synagogue members up to about 130 AD.


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    Dee, it’s hitting home to me how apt is the real main point in your headline (the understatement staring at us in plain sight), that LG “perhaps” wouldn’t have resigned for “merely” having been taken for a ride in being “made to” preside over bad church for 13 years.


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    elastigirl: i’ve opted out of it (communion) – too much pressure. it turns into a show, like a standing ovation – there’s a peer pressure element to it, & i reckon many people end up going through the motions simply to look the part.

    i refuse to insult a deep truth in that way. and the pretense that we even begin to understand it.

    Too many churches have turned a sacred sacrament into a sacrilege. Years ago, I attended a NeoCal church plant in my area on their “communion day” to check out the new movement. The young reformed “pastor” made light of the sacrament by saying “I picked up some cheap grape juice and crackers at Walmart. Grab some on the way out!” Laughter ensued. Jesus wept.

    Even in more civilized churches, I don’t believe the masses truly understand what they are partaking in, the significance of the Lord’s Supper. A popular passage used on communion day is 1 Corinthians 11:23-26. I believe the pastor needs to read 1 Corinthians 11:27-30 first.

    “Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.”


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    Max: and some have died

    Dead in the water, dead hands, dead wood, dead-enders, dead beat, dead in the eyes, dead as a dodo, a dead letter, dead from the neck up.

    Just like their God, the God of Bismarck and William James (the unctuous corner cutter) whose decease F Nietzsche announced (as the characters in Plutarch had done about Great Pan). Germany (and Denmark ** ) have had a 150 years start: now it’s the turn of Anglo-America to pay attention.

    The elements are NOT part of Christ’s ordinance! The ONLY thing we eat and drink (since we no longer eat the elements AS WELL, with synagogue members * ) is the will of Him Who sent Him (namely sacrifical love starting from our supplications however inarticulate). If the congregants haven’t been taught to infer doctrine for themselves from the meanings of Holy Scriptures in direct Holy Spirit strength and to avoid swallowing their bosses’ doctrine, those bosses are implicating the congregants in condemnation too.

    { * following on from mistrust engineered by Imperial Rome
    ** in the impeccable Lutheran, examiner and re-accreditor of fellow preachers, S Kierkegaard }


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    Max: The young reformed “pastor” made light of the sacrament by saying “I picked up some cheap grape juice and crackers at Walmart. Grab some on the way out!” Laughter ensued.

    “WE THANK THEE, LOOOOORD, THAT WE ARE NOTHING LIKE THOSE FILTHY ROMISH PAPISTS WITH THEIR SATANIC DEATH COOKIES…”


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    Michael in UK: Customarily in the RC up to some time ago, no-one “took any notice” of someone that didn’t “go up”.

    That’s still true at my parish.


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    David Walton: those who lead their children astray

    What if it wasn’t these parents? What if it was worldly institutions incited precisely to copy hypocritical religion only more frankly at lack of Spirit?


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    As someone said of my former parish, Grace Episcopal Alexandria (http://www.gracealex.org). Tenth is replete with “empty rote, empty hearts, empty hands.”


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    Eric Bonetti: “empty rote, empty hearts, empty hands.”

    There’s been an outbreak of that in the institutional church.


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    Jennifer,

    Jennifer,
    I too am sorry for the pain you had because of what happened to you at Tenth. I agree that the longtime leaders of that church need to be removed and new leaders need to come in and help rebuild. It seems that the old culture of this church has been a problem. I pray that the Philadelphia Presbytery will be courageous in their decision making. I am watching with hope in my heart because I trust in the God of hope. Unfortunately I have not seen courageous decision making in leadership in the PCA churches and presbytery during my almost 50 years of attending church. It’s very sad.


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    Guest: old culture of this church

    Usually means a long-established power structure within a church with a ruling family or two calling all the shots … or an elder board filled with men of wealth and prominence rather than the Spirit. I once had a denominational executive tell me that some churches won’t get any better until the old deacons die. A crude way to put it, but it was certainly the case in some of the SBC churches I attended over the years.


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    Max,

    Max: Usually means a long-established power structure within a church with a ruling family or two calling all the shots … or an elder board filled with men of wealth and prominence rather than the Spirit.I once had a denominational executive tell me that some churches won’t get any better until the old deacons die.A crude way to put it, but it was certainly the case in some of the SBC churches I attended over the years.

    Max,
    Unfortunately you are describing Tenth to a tee. It’s either wealth and prominence or an immense amount of pride. I see all of it there. That old culture will eventually die out (literally) and hopefully more families with children will be welcomed with open arms instead of being chased away. The problem with Tenth is that it is such a revolving door of people. The leadership doesn’t care if people leave. New people come in and replace the ones that left. And if the new people complain about the old culture, the old culture is happy to see them go. Hopefully it’s in Gods plan to not allow that to continue.


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    Guest: Unfortunately you are describing Tenth to a tee. It’s either wealth and prominence or an immense amount of pride. I see all of it there.

    I’ve been around this mountain so many times in churches, that I could walk into Tenth with eyes and ears open and tell you within a month, without knowing anyone, who the power mongers are at Tenth. They may have a form of godliness, but there is another spirit driving their flesh. Testing and trying the spirits will identify the bad-boys they are chained to.


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    Michael in UK:
    Michael in UK,

    Already before Augustine the mystique of clergy ordination came from their being the ones through whom communion in the elements came (by consecration) – then later the mystique of communion was that it came through clergy (consecration OR no consecration).Communion was the bond of Jewish christians with synagogue members up to about 130 AD.

    I’d like to hear more about this.


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    R,

    That’s all I’ve gleaned or figured out so far. It’s plain to me Jesus was “ordaining” that our food is by our Holy Spirit-fuelled “sacrificial” continual prayers and lifetsyle to strengthen the Holy Spirit gifts in each other. Communion bread and wine was a Jewish custom; synagogue members would perform it at home or maybe in “upper rooms”.

    Real Presence (which is different from any “transubstantiation”) in the sacrament worked, because the weight of christian church attenders until recently believed in the gifts (for living) of us all, genuinely encouraged in that however implicitly by their pastors including “non pentecostal” ones. The idea that pastors have replaced Holy Spirit (which exhausts them) and that the word is the thing (reifying, which blasphemes all human language including secular) is sapping all our belief levels.

    Early christians would do synagogue member things with synagogue members if they were synagogue members, then all the christian believers would hold their own gathering as well where the gentile believers were equal to them. Empire-engineered mistrust reached breaking point in the 130’s. Synagogue members have been going over to Christ despite misportrayals of Christ by church leaders, individually for 2,000 years as members of gentile nations also can do, as you and I (however imperceptibly) reaffirmed as we grew up if already believing from infancy; and meantime christians certainly shouldn’t sensationalize or mystify any affairs among jewish religious or secular people as an unfortunate sub-cult do.

    (I’m part Jewish – a grandmother whom I didn’t know was a convert at age 5 – and her mother I was told, played the drums! – and it shaped my home background to some extent as I am now intuiting in retrospect; and also the “sides” I see are especially the sides fashion mongers aren’t pushing on us, which is just my temperament: look where they are not telling you to look.)

    It’s taken me some pondering. I think all christians should take more time pondering, using general knowledge, adding two and two together to get something remarkably like 4, and talking to Jesus about the many things He said and the entirety of Scripture OT and NT which contain surprising insights! Christians ought not to confine themselves to the unbalanced “selection” their pastors “graciously” give them permission to confine themselves to.

    Fallen sick : have we witnessed sick church?
    Died : at least, dead in the water, dead hands, dead wood and obviously that means elders first and foremost.

    This is what Nietzsche saw in the church under the rule of the Iron Chancellor, and poetically proposed some man who would surmount that (his sister in law and Heidegger haven’t helped his presentation, whatever his own faulty metaphysics etc; he didn’t have answers and christians should set the example of not wanting to swallow a philosopher’s system whole or demanding of them a system – factionalism and package dealing, ad hominemly; some of his questions were also put by Kierkegaard – a licenced preacher and re-accreditor of fellow preachers – where Denmark had a similar if apparently less gross religion problem).

    Jesus will actually ask us whether we prayed that our church wouldn’t end up with this situation. If it was bad for Liam to mix with people who were hogging the reins of power and were already like that (including some I knew who disguised themselves as “nice” and even nice people who were deluded about the nature of right spirituality), surely it will be bad for all of us if it is creeping across our church. Strong honest prayer behind their backs might make hitherto bad elders or ones who aren’t but would be prone, forget or not bother to do bad, or protect them from deception. Or Holy Spirit will “break it up” before it breaks up in the flesh.

    Ordinary believers should be salt and light in their own church first, by prayers first – don’t wait for the bosses’ permission to pray (Jesus didn’t teach that): “don’t stifle your brother’s gift”, well your elders are essentially your brothers even if they in objectively onerous busyness forgot it themselves.

    People who make a song and dance of excommunicating and not excommunicating at the same time (like the ESS who are ESS and not ESS at the same time) have, tragically, stopped having anything to teach us except an object lesson. In some churches is their invented church order, rebadged as doctrine, the only doctrine?


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    Guest: The leadership doesn’t care if people leave.

    “We aren’t the right fit for you”, smilingly. It’s almost as if they wouldn’t value people who see things . . . Doesn’t Scripture foretell believers will see things?


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    Michael in UK: Doesn’t Scripture foretell believers will see things?

    Yes, and what you see, you can’t unsee. What you know, you can’t unknow … it’s in your knower.


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    Barbara Asabre,

    That was the first comment I’ve read on this matter that shows an iota of love and forgiveness. People, think about what harm has been to the cause for Christ! All this finger-pointing and tongue wagging, what do you think the unchurched/unsaved world is saying about us out there? Many of you, in your attitudes are very much like Peter when he took his eyes off of Christ and began to sink. I’m not excusing Dr. Golligher but remember what Jesus said to the crowd at the time of a woman being taken in adultry. Dr. Golligher is now ruined and the whole unsaved world is pointing at us and laughing, not just at the act he is accused of committing but also at the unforgiving attitude of those wagging their tongues and fingers over this debacle.


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    David R. Buhl: Dr. Golligher is now ruined and the whole unsaved world is pointing at us and laughing, not just at the act he is accused of committing but also at the unforgiving attitude of those wagging their tongues and fingers over this debacle.

    Welcome David.
    Given that Ive been out in the internet world for almost 15 years, let me make an observation. The unsaved world isn’t laughing. They are used to this hypocrisy by now. They are probably emitting one, long sigh.
    The ones who are laughing are those folks who cannot believe that a pastor would choose a public venue to have an “encounter.” The fact he would be so indiscrete makes some of us wonder if this sort of thing has been going on for more than one moment.

    How can Liam recover? He should go and work in homeless shelters or caring in some way for let and the hurt. Such long term service would cause many to wonder what caused him to repent and care for the poor. Just a thought.


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    dee,

    I think the biggest shock to his system will be pondering the wider and longer ago church context and whether there are doctrines that fell too far out of favour, like the Holy Trinity. Is church management portrayed (for unwary potential appointees) as a kind of fixing? I’ve said a few more Glory Be’s for them.


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    So it turns out that Tenth are NOT going to vote today to terminate Dr Goligher’s contract, as planned. It seems some members want to know more information before doing so. Does that mean he actually might be retained by Tenth???


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    Confused,

    doutbful


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    Michael in UK: Doesn’t Scripture foretell believers will see things?

    Remember how Deep Throat Driscoll took that verse and ran with it?
    “I SEE Things…”