Last year I wrote several articles about BattleCreek Church (consisting of several campuses in the Tulsa, OK area) and their Senior Pastor, Alex Himaya. (Those articles may be viewed here, here, here.) In one of those articles I highlighted a company named “Generis.” This company, according to their website, works to “Accelerate Generosity Towards God-Inspired Vision.” In plain english they are a group of professionals that assist churches increase revenue through the implementation of slick giving campaigns.
One of the Generis employees is Julie Bullock. She is obviously an intelligent, high energy individual and is praised by her colleagues and customers alike. Bullock is a member of Alex Himaya’s BattleCreek Church and, as of a year ago, she was also a member of Himaya’s Pastor’s Council.
Bullock, along with her colleagues at Generis, undoubtedly designed BattleCreek’s “All In” giving campaign. This campaign is not unique to BattleCreek Church. Later in this article I will show you an example of another church that also hired Generis to help them raise funds for a new church building utilizing Generis’ “All In” campaign.
Due to Alex Himaya’s exceptional skill as a public speaker and salesman, combined with Julie Bulllock’s expertise, last year’s “All In” campaign at BattleCreek Church was highly successful. Alex Himaya’s goal for the “All In” campaign was to obtain pledges from church members totaling $50,000,000 to be donated over a two year period. When the pledges were tallied up they amounted to nearly $51,000,000!
What was BattleCreek Church raising all that money for? Well, their plans for the money were spelled out in a slick booklet they distributed to all members. Below is a screenshot from that booklet. Notice that they plan on expanding the “capacity at several of our Tulsa area campuses.” Included is an artist’s rendering of what the expansion might look like at the Broken Arrow campus.
In another screenshot it’s made even clearer that in year one of the “All In” campaign one of the projects to be funded was “Broken Arrow Capacity Increase.” Broken Arrow Campus is the largest of BattleCreek Church’s campuses and it is Himaya’s home campus.
I don’t doubt that the Broken Arrow campus needs to enlarge their building. It was made clear that the Broken Arrow “Capacity Increase” would be funded out of the $50,000,000 dollars pledged one year ago, at the beginning of the “All In” campaign. But in this video Himaya appears to be pulling a fast one on church members. They need to dig even deeper and pledge another $5,000,000 so they can increase capacity at Broken Arrow!
I honestly don’t know how people can attend a church that continually hits them up for money. In the past year these folks at BattleCreek Church have endured 10 or 11 sermons cajoling them into going “All In” and “Above All” in their giving. I have not listened to all Himaya’s talks in the past year, but if I did I would guess many of them besides the 10-11 specific giving campaign talks are laced with pleas to give sacrificially.
As I conducted research for this story I found something amazing. This phase two “Above All” appears to be part of the master scheme of the fundraising program orchestrated by Generis. I’m no prophet (or is that profit?) but I predict there will be a phase three to this program in another year. Maybe it will be called “All in All.” What makes me think this? I found another church in Fenton, MO (a suburb of St. Louis) called Connect Church. They started their “All In” program in 2020 – one year ahead of BattleCreek Church. Guess what? They had 3 phases to their program. The purpose of their program was to raise enough money to construct a new building. One year into the program they claimed that due to inflation they needed people to dig deeper and give even more money. They closed out their two-year program with a six sermon series called “The Last Inning” in which they urged their members to finish strong.
So it seems like Generis has determined that the best way to raise money is to have a big initial push for pledges and then keep the money coming in by having a mid-term and close-out push to keep giving, increase your giving, or if you are new make a pledge and join the program. This makes sense. If you have a big initial drive and then say nothing else for two years there is a good chance people will lose interest and quit giving.
It just seems a bit deceptive to me. It sounds like something a Robert Tilton or Jesse Duplantis would do… on second thought, these days Southern Baptist Churches aren’t a whole lot different.
Mammon: the true God of these guys and it is not very hard to see. But I figured out a while ago that giving money is not charity in our society. Charity is giving of yourself to needy individuals. Mammons saves no one and does not change lives around for the better. It is deceptive by nature.
Matthew 6;24 – 24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.”
God ultimately loses in our culture . . .
Luckyfoward, sadly I suspect that you’re right. My church was literally bursting at the seams and had some building projects during the past 10-15 years. Fortunately, the elders and pastoral staff explained the need, and I never felt pressured to give beyond my means. And yet I have to wonder how to walk the line between serving God and money without messing up.
Don’t they know that it would take a lot less planning and a lot less bs if they just charged attendance fees and membership dues???
But, I guess that would splash some paint stripper on that Christian veneer, wouldn’t it?
Why aren’t God and money in the same camp?
Why are God and money in opposition?
It begs the question, “What is money anyway/”
In any case, Jesus built nothing on money, and he angrily threw the money-changers & businessmen doing business in the Temple, out of the Temple.
God owns everything and doesn’t need our money.
Salvation is not bought and the Gospel is never sold.
Sharing the Gospel is neither a lifetime career nor a paid position, according to the NT.
Jesus never collected even one shekel.
In the NT, pastoring is not a salaried position nor were there any salaried positions in the NT churches.
An enterprise entitled church is not actually church.
Our book club meets and charges nothing. The Bible is a book. Maybe Christians should do book clubs. More cost effective. Where does a book club meet for free? Library community rooms, coffeeshops, bookstores, parks, community center community rooms, etc.
This is not complicated. Christian wage-earners should support themselves and their families first. If Christian wage-earners have extra, they should support others who have legitimate needs. (Choosing pastoring as a fulltime paid vocation, IMHO, is not a legitimate need, it is a grift.)
What I love about the Asian religions, is that they are so low maintenance. They do not drain the pocketbooks and the clock hours of their practitioners. Then their working people can work and be productive. Their children can focus on school and education.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
Good points, both of em’.
Found this…….Hmmmm. Can’t figure why they’re so all-in for this “All In” fundraising campaign. Cash flow does not seem to be a problem:
https://signature.rezdy.com/509911/dr-alex-himaya-11-day-journey-to-the-seven-churches-of-revelation-may-27-june-6-2023
“ Join Dr. Alex Himaya on a special tour to Asia Minor to explore the Seven Churches of Revelation on a tour of Christian sites in Asia Minor.…….”
“ PRICING:
$4,895 per person based on double occupancy.
Single room supplement – $995
$500 per person with registration to secure space.
50% of the total amount is due on or before December 27, 2022
Balance due on or before March 27, 2023”
Thanks Nancy. I hope to write an article next week about some of the grift going on among leadership at BattleCreek. I need to review my notes, but I believe Himaya has a 501(c)3 set up for his tour guide job to Israel. I would assume his trip to the seven churches of Revelation will also be lining his pockets with money. I have a video of him saying he is paying for law school for his eldest daughter, college for his 2 boys and private high school for his youngest daughter. Plus his daughter had a costly destination wedding in Costa Rica this past summer. I would assume many of the invited guests were from his church. You wonder how they can do all this stuff when they are donating way above 10%. Lots more to come on this matter.
One of my churches got strung along by an “architect” who promised to expand the capacity of a building we had our eye on, from 100 to 600. No doubt that involved tempting our elders with “artists’ impressions”. It took years to get that architect off our backs. Result a few years later: beautiful renovated church, capacity 150, our own property, incomparable to the old ruin we had rented (capacity 120). (The elders didn’t get heavy with us re. money once their illusions were punctured.)
With all due respect, as someone who has lived in South East Asia for the last 30 years, nothing could be farther from the reality I experience in Buddhism across this region. Annual Merit making festivals at one’s local temple (at least 4-5 times a year) put pressure on people to give food, money and robes to the monks. When someone is married monks must be paid to come and do the ceremony at the house. Same with funerals.
Every town in the country where I live -even rural villages- has a Buddhist monastery and outbuildings. Major Province towns have ginormous temples with glittering spires and expensive furnishings. Monks who are not supposed to own anything can actually be quite rich, owning land and big bank accounts. All of this funded from the pockets of average low income villagers who were pressured by neighbors, family and friends to give money that they didn’t have.
All around the world people in every country and every religion experience the same pressure to give their money to religious elites in exchange for security regarding their eternal souls. It should not be this way in churches claiming to follow Jesus as Lord but alas, it is because human nature hasn’t changed in 2000 years.
Any idea of what Generis charges? I am sure they are not cheap.
Not to sure on that. Hindu nationalism is very problematic in India, as in “our way or the highway”, Indonesia (the world’s largest Muslim country) just made it illegal to have sex outside marriage and Buddhist fundamentalists have been behind the religious persecution of the rohinga in Myanmar.
I stay home home Sunday and save 10%
Fisher,
Jack,
Good points. Thanks. We have different anecdotal experiences. There are a variety of Asian cultures and religions, so my original assumptions were way too broad. Again, thanks.
Mega-mania requires mega-giving.
“Sell all you have and follow me” applied to Jesus not pastors!
They could take some of that 50 million and hire a good proofreader. I found at least four places in their booklet that could use attention.
Busy day so I don’t have time to look up the reference…hope someone helps me out, but in the OT there was time when in building the altar no tools could be used on it. Left the impression that our contact with God cannot have anything of man’s work. Foreshadowed the fact salvation is all of grace through faith, and that not of works.
It appeals to our sinful side, not our holy side, to figure we can give til it hurts, go all in, do more more more in order to be right with God.
He has never accepted our working our way to heaven, and never will.
Folks should go all in and ditch this church entirely.
No idea, but I agree, their services are most likely not cheap.
If you make an altar of stones for me, do not build it with dressed stones, for you will defile it if you use a tool on it. Exodus 20:25 NIV
Another verse in Exodus, another school of thought, suggests that people should offer the finest materials and workmanship to worship spaces.*
“Moreover you shall make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twisted linen and blue and purple and scarlet material; you shall make them with cherubim, the work of a skillful workman.” —Exodus 26:1
*I don’t actually think that the typical modern mega is a beautiful space, so perhaps neither verse applies.
‘the typical modern mega’
70% of fundamentalist-evangelicals support(ed) trumpism
honestly, these $$$ campaigns for funds to ‘spread the Gospel’ sound so much more like a professional team of grifters feeding out of the collection plates
good people fall for it – my godmother of blessed memory did – she saw no evil in the television preachers – she gave them everything she had and self-denied
I cannot forget that. I cannot forget her innocence and her generosity.
In her name, I try not to ‘hate’ these grifters, but their unholy greed speaks of something un-connected to Christ or to any ‘gospel’
a country filled with huge megas with authoritarian ‘leaders’ ? Politics and Greed and Power?
to what end?
to what end?
“… exceptional skill as a public speaker and salesman …”
As I’ve said before, all it takes to be a successful mega-pastor is a touch of charisma, a gift of gab, and a bag of gimmicks. A working knowledge of the Bible is helpful, but not necessary … there are plenty of canned sermons on the internet.
Perhaps the spiritual among them should launch an “All Out” campaign!
Friend,
Yeah, but those passages are from the OT, long before the shekinah cloud of glory left the tabernacle…… long before Jesus rose from the dead.
How about the NT. Where did Jesus preach?
Where were Jesus’ followers on the day of Pentecost? That rushing mighty wind didn’t fill the tabernacle. Where did the early Christians teach and hold “worship services”?
Max,
Like a used car salesman ……. except mega-pastors get the fame, the adulation, the mega-mansions, and the mega-salaries that the salesmen don’t.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
I don’t think TWW will ever agree on where people should worship. My own take is that Jesus did not mind houses of worship; he did mind the dishonoring of houses of worship. In Luke 4, Jesus taught in the synagogues in Nazareth and Capernaum, and created quite a sensation. That chapter portrays him as a regular in Jewish houses of worship. Yes, he was hounded and rejected, but that happened outdoors too, not just indoors.
Off topic: has anybody here been watching Greenleaf on Netflix? It’s about an African-American megachurch in Memphis. I feel like I’ve watched it already on Wartburg Watch.
Very well done show, decent acting and character development; and the themes are in the news here, there, and in other blogs.
Many mega-pastors after mega-failures end up being salesmen of one sort or another since they already have that toolkit.
Ted,
Thx, we’ll check it out.
Max,
Wasn’t the rich young ruler told to give all his riches to the needy poor and then follow Jesus?
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
The curtain in the Temple split when Jesus died on the cross.
I looked this up. Lo and behold, The Gospel Coalition has a post regarding how the split curtain meant there is no middleman, no priest, nothing separating us from God due to Jesus’ sacrificial death and resurrection. OK.
Then, at The Gospel Coalition website where this entry is posted, up pops a pop-up that asks for $400,000 ASAP, like NOW, before the end of the year, so … well, let the Gospel Coalitioners tell it for themselves:
“Only Two Days Left!
In order to keep producing free, gospel-centered resources, we need your help to reach our $400,000 year-end goal. Your gift will help us equip Christians to apply biblical truth to the chaos and confusion of our changing world.
Donate Today”
Free, not free.
(By the way, Jesus never asked for money. The Gospel is never sold. Telling it is not selling it, and there are no salaries for telling the Good News and giving testimonies in the NT. The enterprise or business of the Gospel is contrived post NT. A person can share their experience with Jesus and the Good News, FREE, without getting paid to do it. People can share their gifts from the Holy Spirit to the Church without getting paid for their gift, FREE, duh. The 18 FREE gifts from the Holy Spirit to the Church are listed in Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12, and Ephesians 4.)
Turns out, apparently, The Gospel Coalition is really The Grift Coalition.
There’s no bizz like the Jeezus bizz.
Well, if they will ever admit, that as a married woman, Jesus is my middleman – not my husband ………. and that I should submit to God – not to my husband…….
I might consider sending them a bag of milk chocolates ——- you know, the kiddie candy that is made to look like money.
$400,000 in chocolate coins is a lot of chocolate.
Ava Aaronson,
So I’ll send a chocolate check. Years ago, Avon sold chocolate checks: you filled ‘em out and signed ‘em with pink decorator’s icing that came with the blank chocolate checks!
Ted,
My husband and I watched Greenleaf, thought it was really interesting. Enjoyed the character development and the many grey areas it explored.
Ava Aaronson,
Besides, I said I might consider it…….. didn’t say what my final decision might be.
Cash as in coin or bills, checks, credit cards … churches take them all, as far as we know. Pledges, too. And of course, clock hours – time, energy, free labor, skills without compensation.
We’ve been listening to “The Hiding Place” on audio, by Corrie ten Boom.
Ms. ten Boom writes that her dad (Casper ten Boom) raised/supported 11 more children that needed a home after he had raised his own. He also housed & supported his wife’s three sisters in their senior years. After all that, he and his family hid the targeted and vulnerable during the Holocaust, risking their lives.
Mr. ten Boom’s son, educated to be a pastor, and then with six children, was not able to support his family on church donations, so he opened up and administrated nursing homes for the elderly, a real job, so he could support his family with integrity.
When I walked away from the SBC in 2016, the rural church I left had set up PayPal for people to use for tithes, offerings, etc.
Average attendance 100 per Sunday, counting children and visitors.
“IT’S TIME FOR MEGA-MANIACS!
DRAIN YOUR WALLET WHILE PASTOR YAKS!”
“ALL IN” campaign.
Another dumbass-sounding “Gimme Your Money!” appeal.
How about Crypto?
(And I ain’t talking Superboy’s Supterdog…)
A little momento from classic Dr Demento, credited to a “Sue Loo”:
“Chocolate toenails don’t grow on trees,
Nor do they grow on dungarees;
No they do not grow on your nose,
Chocolate toenails grow on your toes!
“Give your feet the protein they need,
Chocolate toenails, oh yes indeed;
Your feet will resemble King Kong’s
When you pour the chocolate on!”
Seek the answer via google, and ye shall find:
“Mission Statement
“Helping everyone become an outward-focused follower of Jesus
“Why Donate Bitcoin to Grace Church?
“At Grace Church we are committed to plant 100 new churches or campuses by 2036. We are excited for this new journey we are on and we invite you to take part in it. We have recently started a church planting network & a church planting residency all designed to train and equip those with a heart to plant churches. In the meantime, if you have any questions about church planting, our network, or our residency, please reach out – we would love to chat with you!
“Save on your Taxes by Donating Crypto
“Why Donate Crypto Directly? Taxes!
“There’s a reason high net worth individuals tend to donate property instead of cash. Donating cryptocurrency directly to a 501c3 nonprofit is more tax efficient and can save you money.
“The IRS classifies cryptocurrency as property for tax purposes which means it is typically the most tax efficient way to support your favorite cause. When donating crypto, you receive a tax deduction for the fair market value of the crypto, and you avoid the capital gains tax you would have incurred if you had sold the crypto and then made a donation. That means you’re able to donate more, as well as deduct more on your tax return. The difference? Sometimes more than 30%.
“If you provide an email, you will automatically receive a tax receipt after donating.”
The above is where “Grace Church” has a webpage on this website “The Giving Block: A Shift 4 Company” Dunno which “Grace Church” tho.
https://thegivingblock.com/donate/grace-church/#:~:text=Donating%20cryptocurrency%20directly%20to%20a,to%20support%20your%20favorite%20cause.
Question: Is “planting churches” even in the Bible? Doesn’t sound organic for outsiders to come to town and “plant a church”. Hmmmm …. testify, share the Gospel message, make disciples in every nation, but then don’t disciples in each nation grow their own churches (even as traveling Paul & Silas go back, drop in once in a while, try to be helpful, encourage?)
Here’s the church website, in Kansas: https://visitgracechurch.com
The founder was trained as a computer engineer at Stanford.
Apparently, pastoring is a better gig.
🙂
The NT warns about merchandising the Gospel:
“When Simon saw how the Spirit was given through the apostles’ laying their hands upon people he offered them money with the words, “Give me this power too, so that if I were to put my hands on anyone he could receive the Holy Spirit. But Peter said to him, ‘To hell with you and your money! How dare you think you could buy the gift of God! You can have no share or place in this ministry, for your heart is not honest before God.'” (Acts 8:18-23 Phillips)
Ava Aaronson,
Big screens, fog machines, and skinny jeans.
Not any better than tithes going to the progressive, woke churches which have been promoting stuff like this:
Drag queen pastor, Isaac Simmons, declares ‘God is nothing’ in blasphemous profanity-laced video
https://www.theblaze.com/news/drag-queen-pastor-god-is-nothing
Another example from the left:
Church of England Refuses to Define the Word ‘Woman’
https://missdaisyflower.wordpress.com/2022/07/13/church-of-england-refuses-to-define-the-word-woman/
You’re a poet, Max.
Did ya know it? Fact.
Ava Aaronson,
Ava, if I didn’t force myself to find a little humor in the mess the American church is in, I would be crying most of the time. We are living far below what Christ desires of His Church. IMO, we are in the church age described in 2 Thessalonians … a falling away from genuine faith … the Great Apostasy … in both pulpit and pew.
Daisy,
Fortunately, we’ve never had to deal with the nonsense you’ve shared in the links of what seem to be some very strange “churches” and “leaders”.
However, in participating in supposedly wonderful looking local churches over the years, we’ve dealt with misogyny, racism, elitism, marginalization, etc., a host of other isms. Once in a while there’s criminal behavior (violation of minors, extortion of church funds, etc.) and the DOJ intervened. Granted, a local church is made up of local folks, but hopefully seeking to be their best selves together by the grace of God. However, when the leadership is part and parcel, sometimes charged and indicted, it gets a little old, and we’ve move on.
In any case, though we would neither attend nor support a church with a pastor in drag, at least that’s not illegal in our Freedom of Religion and Expression country. So they do their thing and there are no DOJ proceedings. Some people choose to pay for that. Their choice, too. At least they know what they’re paying for, as there’s no opacity about it. Nevertheless, not our cup of Christian tea.
It seems like most of what shows up here at TWW lacks opacity, and may even be illegal. The problem. The fake or fraud, deception, and cruelty.
Meant to write the opposite, “lacks opacity” should read: “lacks transparency”.
It seems like most of what shows up here at TWW lacks transparency, and may even be illegal. The problem. The fake or fraud, deception, and cruelty.
Daisy,
Fortunately, moving on from a church & church leadership that no longer makes sense is done with ease. (Which is why churches increasingly insist on covenants to lock in membership and secure the salaried pastor his wages. Back in the day, there were State churches. Today, we have covenants. Both serve insecure leaders.)
Unfortunately, it is much more difficult (and almost impossible for most people) to move on from a government.
Which is why, one would think Christians would strive for Common Good and Rule of Law governance – including Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Expression. This would broadly protect a civilized society across religious lines, and permit religious life to flourish.
The Casper ten Boom family’s story is telling. It includes very devoted-to-God lives under an imperfect democracy (was it liberal? and they were permitted to live conservatively by choice?) and then the Holocaust under an authoritarian strongman. Historian @ruthbenghiat of NYU documents the history, legacies, and the playbook of strongmen in her book, “Strongmen”. The strongmen all follow the same playbook – any leader, church or civil, can be exposed as a dangerous strongman by looking at this tactical playbook. Not naming names here. But Professor BenGhiat’s research lays it all out in plain sight.
Today we also have churches that my great-great-great-grandparents would recognize: places where the services are free to any who walk through the doors, and all contributions are completely voluntary.
Impressive range of sources here today. I’ll stick with the Bible and Ruth Ben-Ghiat.
Why would Alex want to expand the main Battlecreek’s sanctuary before returning to three services on a Sunday like they use to do? Heck, a lot of these megachurches have Saturday evening services as well.
Alex could just push play on his sermon like he does at the other campuses. $55 million is a lot of cabbage, especially with no definitive plans, budgets, or blueprints. Who in their right mind gives anyone a blank check for $55 million? Let alone, some exposed like Alex Himaya?? BTW, check out BC’s website, not only were they closed for Christmas, they’re closed for New Year’s Day as well.
So after hammering the sheep for months for every nickel and even real property, Alex shuts the place down for two weeks….. Alex has “moxy,” I don’t think it’s from the Holy Spirit, but he’s got it. BTW, wonder where Alex and his family are during this extended break? We’ll never know. Did anyone else notice that all of the golf and vacation pics disappeared from the Himaya’s social media after Todd’s initial articles?
If you’re doing nothing wrong and you’re “blessed” by the Holy Spirit, why remove those glorious blessings from social media?
Tulsa, OK?
Not Battle Creek, MI?
The other Battle Creek is no stranger to Weirdness;
Ever heard of Crazy Doc Kellogg?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harvey_Kellogg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_Creek_Sanitarium
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_to_Wellville_(film)
Corporations and Churches really need to research their possible names before naming themselves.
Just a heads up to anyone following the link. It caused my phone to lock up and crashed the chrome browser – your results may vary.
Media bias fact check has this to say about “the Blaze”
“Overall, we rate The Blaze strongly Right Biased and Questionable based on the promotion of conspiracy theories and numerous failed fact checks.”
Here’s the link to that assessment
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-blaze/
From what I could read it appears that this is one trans pastor, but could be a parody. Didn’t get to far and won’t go back to anything that zaps my browser.
Anyway corruption isn’t a right or left thing.
But it is a mega church thing. And most megas are pretty explicit on what they think of “alternative lifestyles”.
I don’t hear much about trans pastors so I would say the influence compared to clown that can raise 50 odd mill is pretty small.
I wonder if it’s a fixed sum or a percentage of the take.
Daisy,
I got two seconds into this post.
The author doesn’t consider trans folks women.
Ok – that’s a typical Christian attitude but even when I was Christian I knew the research shows that human sexuality is fluid. There’s a spectrum.
Can’t say I agree that this anything to do with right or left except that we know the bible says what god hates. And that’s one of the main reasons I am no longer Christian.
I don’t hate what god hates.
He’d be shut down quickly if that garbage was published today.
I don’t party like it’s 1999BC
A tell is, well, a tell.
Moreover, a grift is a grift.
One could say, “Once a grifter, always a grifter,” but then there’s Zacchaeus. Zacchaeus reimbursed x4 each person he grifted, displaying what John the Baptist and Peter termed, “the fruit of real true actual nothing-fake-about-it repentance”. (Noted in both Luke 3.8 and Acts 3.8.)
Were there to be true repentance among grifting clergy, pastor planes would be falling from the sky. Or, at least, grounded forevermore. And pastor-planing would be no more.
Good point. Technology enables megachurch satellite dynasties, spider-webbing their tentacles throughout communities across the globe, 24×7. There’s exponential digital potential with NO NEED for building and expanding more brick and mortar, adding more staff, driving up costs. Dollar cost should be next to nothing.
Nowhere in the Bible does anyone pay for the Gospel.
Today, more than ever before, the Gospel can be spread free and far.
Recorded, broadcast, everywhere, 24 x 7, always.
Someone needs to read the room, full of grifters and griftees.
The problem for clergy of having to do without the brick and mortar onsite attendance of their audience is loss of clergy control.
That’s quite a lump you put together there. It’s quite absurd, Daisy.
Our former church charges a fee to join a Bible study group.
OTOH:
Traci Rhoades
@tracesoffaith
One last invite to join our private FB group in reading through the Bible chronologically in 2023. We use the NLT reading plan; either use that specific Bible, use the pdf list, or YouVersion app, and read from varying translations. Search FB: Traci Chronological Bible Group
I’m so glad you are now free of that (in every sense).
Exactly. I’ve read them described as” speaking out of both sides of their mouth”.
They’re not getting sweet$ from me.
Friend,
Yes, ever grateful to be free of Pay-to-Play Church. All notable name brand local churches in our area charge for Bible study participation. These are relatively small fees, nevertheless, there are fees charged. Church is not free. In contrast, Traci Rhodes FB Read the Bible in a Year together group is free. TWW is free. Going for the freebies.
Subtle prosperity gospel culture: Get educated & a good job, then join a church and Tithe. Pay to participate: church of the “faithful”. Who is left out, in this day and age of education and professional jobs being the end-all and answer for the Good Life? In the Bible, Job or Ruth & her mother-in-law would not qualify. Etc. If you don’t abide in the tithe/pay-to-play status, you’re at fault, and you’re a loser. You must have done something to be out of God’s will for your life. Get sick and you’re outta luck; better die soon as this is not the Good Life and it will drain your family and your local church. Don’t be a burden. Real Christians are never burdens but always saviors.
What the Bible teaches: the anawim are the least of the least (through no choices of their own) who still seek God in their desperation. They are faithful, the most faithful, and they know God the best.
“The anawim of the Old Testament were the poor of every sort: the vulnerable, the marginalized, and socio-economically oppressed, those of lowly status without earthly power. In fact, they depended totally on God for whatever they owned. The Hebrew word anawim means those who are bowed down.
“In times of suffering, the anawim remained faithful and looked to God for answers, as Luke tells us in (Lk 1:53). They delighted in the Lord because they were rooted in him.
“Mary of Nazareth belonged to the anawim. Her life of fidelity singled her out for a special role in God’s plan. She was already betrothed to Joseph, and when God’s plan was put to her, she asked how it would happen. Mary’s free acceptance allowed the Spirit to work in her. In proclaiming her Magnificat, she acknowledged that the Almighty has done great things for her in her lowliness in contrast to God’s dealings with the proud (Lk 1:47).
“Mary shines among the anawim about whom Jesus later speaks in the Sermon on the Mount. She is the first model of discipleship in the New Testament.
“Like Mary, Joseph also belonged to the anawim. In a dream, he experienced his own annunciation in which he responded to God (Mt 1:18-25). Joseph had no foreknowledge of Mary’s Annunciation or divine pregnancy. He had to be told. Like Joseph of the Old Testament, through a dream, he was asked to trust God. He understood that by divine choice, he would be the child’s earthly father. Like Mary, Joseph trusted God.
“Phil. 2:6-7: Jesus emptied himself taking the form of a servant, born in the likeness of men. ‘He emptied himself’, freely choosing to deprive himself of something he already possessed. Jesus gave up his wealth to be poor. By his poverty, ‘(we) might become rich’ (2 Cor 8:1-9). He entered into the condition of the powerless anawim, but he did not de-divinize himself of his Godhead. He made himself at one with the poor by becoming absolutely poor.
“Jesus emptied himself as agape love in order to redeem humanity. Agape led to glory. Love was the only reason for his incarnation, his passion, death, and resurrection.
“As model parents, Mary and Joseph raised Jesus in the spirit of the anawim.
“Jesus preached with moral authority instead of with temporal power, and the Sermon on the Mount makes the ultimate counter-cultural statement.”
Today, churches & church leaders minister with temporal power (personality, display of wealth, charisma, influence, showmanship, material grandeur) instead of the anawim moral authority of Jesus and God’s Holy Spirit.
Churches neither accept nor recognize the 18 GIFTS of the Holy Spirit given to the church: Rom. 12, 1 Cor 12., Eph. 4. No amount of money could save us from sin, satan, the world; Jesus Lived, died, rose, & rules for us.
No amount of money can supply the church with the 18 gifts from the Holy Spirit that form the church into the Body of Christ. The Holy Spirit gives these gifts according to God’s will. God neither demands nor requires nor needs nor accepts our money. We worship God in spirit & truth. (Jesus told the rich young ruler to donate his wealth to the poor; Jesus neither requested nor collected the rich young ruler’s money.)
Quotes above re: anawim:
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/column/52385/the-anawim-who-are-they
Battlecreek church members. I know you’re here.
Your perspective would be GREATLY appreciated.
Post.
As to ‘gender issues’ and how ‘the Church’ responds to them, it has occurred that we can examine HOW denominations have responded to ‘gender issues’ in the ways that REFLECT the light of Christ as seen through the fruit of the Holy Spirit exhibited by those who serve the Church . . .
Is there a ‘continuum’ with universally acknowledge hate groups at one end of ‘the spectrum’? Yes, we have examples of these, sure.
But the question for me is WHAT form would the OTHER end of the continuum exhibit? And how are we to ‘recognize’ it as reflecting Christ through the words and actions of His followers in how these people speak and act towards those with gender issues.
For me, that is where there seems to be much controversy, and that is where, instead of debate and argument, it might be more productive to have some real CONSENSUS ABOUT WHAT IS AGREED UPON as to how ‘the Church’ serves people with ‘gender issues’.
And has it ever been tried?
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Church organisations should pull out of marriages. Individuals can ask other individuals to pray a blessing over them, at the party.
Industrialisers of religion are the ones who gave people gender issues in the first place.
christiane,
“how are we to ‘recognize’ it as reflecting Christ through the words and actions of His followers in how these people speak and act towards those with gender issues.”
++++++++++++++++
assuming this doesn’t refer to comp/gender roles, I’d say treating them like any other human being, respecting their dignity as human beings and in how they identify.
all i know is it’s not up to me to do otherwise. they deserve it as much as any human being.
It seems to me that it’s some “Christ followers” who have the “issue”.
The constitution (the guiding document for the United States – in Canada it’s the charter of rights and freedoms) is pretty explicit in all people being equal in the eyes of the law.
The 21st century ones (AD not BC).
Jack , the gay community has plenty of issues too, I have gay friends who dislike trans folks and a whole host of disagreements. When I worked at a large trauma public hospital we always had gay individuals on our floor who had been attacked by others gay individuals. Every group has issues, part of the fall or human nature. They are plenty of loving Christian’s and others who may disagree with their lifestyle yet treat them with dignity. Where the problems sometimes lie is gay community wanting to force their beliefs on others or visa versa. . There are plenty of radical LGBTQ ️ folks out there as well as kind ones. The spectrum runs both ways.
As far as Michael from the UK , the better question might be why the government doesn’t get out of thr marriage business.
Maybe because marriage provides legal protections for the couple, and the hundreds of churches in a given city or county do not run the court system. Personally, I don’t want the trendy corner mega to determine whether an elderly widow gets to keep the family home, or whether a child is legitimate enough to inherit items in a will.
Anybody (in the US at least) with a marriage license is participating in civil recognition of the marriage, whether the wedding happens in a church or on a beach.
Plymouth Colony got a lot of things wrong, but marriage was a civil event there, specifically because of religious monopoly power previously wielded against dissenters. The first marriage in Plymouth was that of Edward Winslow and Susanna White, and the ceremony was performed by Governor William Bradford.
But then How Can I Virtue-Signal MY Righteousness as GAWD’s Speshul Anointed Pet?
How Can I Be Prefect and Pure WITHOUT Someone Else to Other and Blame?
“Country in depression,
Nation in despair,
One man seeking reasons everywhere;
Growing hate and anger,
The Fuehrer’s orders were precise:
WHO WAS TO BE BLAMED AND PAY THE PRICE?”
— Sabaton, “Final Solution”
And just like in Furry Fandom, the Loud Crazies have a way of hijacking the whole schmeer.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
It’s always easy to label another group’s extremists and write off the whole group. Our own groups, of course, don’t have any extremists, just that strange fellow who shows up for things. We’re never responsible for him.
I agree and if I was commenting on a blog that dealt with those issues, I’d have lots to say
But in talking about Christian trends, the doubling down on biblical literalism causes no end of trouble.
The fact is that a swath of Christianity holds beliefs that they think are the direct, inerrant word of god.
Sure, everyone has bigotry, but only a select few view it as a mandate from heaven.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Ok, my “my little pony: friendship is magic” years came to a close when the kids stopped watching treehouse television but I don’t recall queen celestia declaring that the rainbow ponies were an abomination that should be “put out to pasture”
In most cases, it’s not possible to do anything about extremists within our own group unless that group is very small and localized. The only ones we can possibly influence are those within our circle of relationships. And even then we have no ability to control their behavior
Jack,
Yes. The followers of Christ go towards the Light, no matter what century . . .
people’s interpretations of ‘the bible’ are often sources of disagreement and division;
but I think the true followers of Christ recognize the worth of every human person as made in the image of God and deriving their worth as children of God. No gender issue is more important than that all people are to be given dignity as creatures of God Who gave them life and maintains them in existence. That to be a human person is to be a child of God – there is nothing that matters more than this, no. People are wounded. Christ heals us, beginning with how we treat one another ‘on the journey’. In honoring the dignity of another as a human person, we also acknowledge our own dignity as a creature of God.
But mega churches often have congregations numbering in the thousands that support an enable this minority.
My experience in evangelicalism showed me no matter how whack it is, they won’t criticize it
As an outsider, I can only assume that the majority is ok with whatever the extremists come up with. They won’t outright say so at the risk of being run out of town but it’s telling that this forum is run by a Lutheran former evangelical.
People can 1) call out bad behavior on the spot, 2) grimly not laugh or nod along with outrageous comments, 3) politely stand up from the table and leave, 4) cancel membership in a group, 5) conversely, volunteer with the group and patiently work to remove toxic people and ideas, 6) write or call to complain to leaders that extreme ideas and actions are proliferating, 7) join a better group, 8) keep attending but stop giving money, 9) call the police to report crimes, 10) stop socializing with people who spout extreme ideas, 11) keep their own children from attending “harmless” activities with the group, 12) teach and exemplify the better values, 13) say why toxic ideas and behavior are wrong–especially to young people, who are seeing a lot of things for the first time.
This list is not theory; it’s drawn from my own experiences and actions.
Folks should realize that extremists in their group reflect on them. The no true Scotsman fallacy allows a comfortable distance. It should not.
The power of our own words terrifies us. We might be heard and understood!
Well put, and I agree.
Chuckp,
An equally good question since marriage was banned for a while (so I heard). Registry offices are big and they should open their windows and it needs:
– the couple
– two witnesses 6 ft apart
– registrar
– registrar’s clerk
They can wear pastry gloves to sign something.
The opposite of rights is wrongs.
Friend,
I totally agree and the extremists can comprise the “mainstream”, hence emotional detachment, caution in mingling and selectiveness in commitment should be the way to go, if you’re “staying”. (Sssshhhh, this IS what Jesus and Paul taught all along!)
How many christians still go with the prayerless Moral Majority of the segregationist “pragmatist” Jerry Senior? Over here, a lot of people. (In some quarters it was called “body theology”.)
Thus official christianity denied that the purpose of marriage is enough companionship to create welcome for third and more individuals, and not possessiveness, and replaced prayer with posing as the main work of christians.
Because to appease politicians they assured the politicians they could manoeuvre us into their anti-bolshevik and / or anti-nazi fold. This is in effect a bad kind of material dialectic.
A “sinner’s prayer” worked in the gin sodden 1730s AND was followed up (on the Wesley side) by the actual teachings of Christ teaching new disciples to supplicate for those around them.
The Small Commission and irrelevant mini-salvation, Billy Graham style, with no trust in providence or Scripture meanings, swept the board. Tim Gloege in Guaranteed Pure details how the marketer of “premium value” oats * ran the Moody Institute and how, subsequently, the Fundamentals became the maximum imposed on all christians.
* “premium value” = all the rest (perfectly good) are declared suspect. That’s advertising which isn’t lies.
People who are declared “not saved yet” because they haven’t gone through the hoops “required”, are those we are segregated from.
Did St Paul say supplicate without ceasing? Is this what the complainers about St Paul really most hate about him? The Kingdom = those who are supplicating.
St Peter says the format of wording of St Paul is deep, he doesn’t say it is hard to believe in the meaning of, or to follow.
Friend,
Exactly. The dominionists who pretend they aren’t dominionists **, have shut heavens like brass. They wanted their word to become the thing and they will be quizzed about this in the next world. Like John Smyth had primed PJ to insist in his 1994 letter (next thread) they didn’t want their hand to be stayed.
** that was only advertising and everybody knows that’s meant to be lies.
Interlopers set up a false monobloc for them to be deemed part of. Thus setting some to mind others’ business when they wouldn’t have wanted to, which isn’t good secular agnosticism any more than it’s a good proceeding in churches.
I fully agree with your list. But most of us don’t have any ability to influence anything outside our local sphere of influence. I left a SBC church around eight years ago because there was nothing I could do to make a difference. I tried, and it cost me dearly. I finally had to vote with my feet after realizing all my feedback put me on the s___ list. There is not much any of us can do to change the way evangelicals vote, decisions major denominations make, etc.
Group think, loss aversion, and Stockholm syndrome are powerful motivators. Standing against such a crowd is the right thing to do, but there is almost no chance it will make a difference. A tipping point has to be reached first.
I understand and empathize.
One man’s action brought divine disastrous consequences on the entire nation of Israel:
1 Chronicles 2.7: “The son of Carmi (a descendant of Zimri) was Achan, who brought disaster on Israel by taking plunder that had been set apart for the LORD.”
Oops.
A Ukrainian reporting from Kiev on the war (risking her life) said, “I cannot NOT tell the stories. Untold stories terrify me, NOT the war. Truth must be told.” (This reporter appears on a Frontline documentary.)
Unfortunately too many church folks “can’t handle the truth.”
More and more people are leaving.
There is no tipping point. Just more and more splits and movement.
How many people are actually converting vs moving from one Christianity to another?
True believers dig in and harden, the rest of us just go.
There’s no changing this system.
Yep, been there, done that. I’m seriously considering leaving the blogosphere for the same reason.
Max,
you are read and deeply appreciated, Max. i’d miss you.
Max,
You make a difference here at TWW.
The sower disperses seed on various types of soil, so there is a variety of results.
Jack,
We were discussing this. Why some folks seem so stable in their Christian life & ministry, just going along with the flow, as things happen, they are just there, holding up the institution.
I guess that’s their end game. The system. They don’t deal with ANYTHING. They’ve sold their souls to a system, an institution, a network, no matter how corrupt, as long as they can feel that they are keeping their own hands clean.
The story of Achan in the OT would say otherwise. Joshua 7. One man caused a disaster for the whole group of people who were supposedly set apart for God, living godly lives.
In our case, I don’t fault our nation. (We are not OT Israelites.) I fault the churches – churches are supposed to be set apart unto God.
Max, Ava, I suspect your preaching online reaches more ears than most mega churches do. And since you don’t care who gets the credit, and nickels and noses are not counted, I suspect more good is being done by your ministries than is done at most megas also.
Max – I know I speak for Dee when I say we would both hate to see you leave. We appreciate your input.
Max,
We need you, Max.
If crazies like us leave it will make all the other normal people think they are crazy
Yes we do.
And the True Believers become more and more extreme, more and more disconnected from external reality.
Until they’re like The Dwarfs For The Dwarfs in their filthy stable on the borderlands of Aslan’s Land, forever marinating in their Alternative Facts and TRVTHs of the One True Way they annd they alone possess and guard.
“Because they Won’t Be Taken In, they cannot be taken out.” — Aslan of Narnia
linda,
Linda, thanks so much for your encouragement. I feel the same about you. We are very blessed by your sharing your heart. God bless you a hundredfold.
Here we are blessed with no money-changers, no paywall, no selling of the Gospel. JC promises his presence among us as we gather in his name.
I was going to copy-and-paste all the other commenter’s “we’d miss you, we need you, etc.” replies to you, Max, but there were too many. 🙂
I’d miss you, and I need you, but if leaving the blogosphere is something you need to do for yourself….
Folks, I fear that my venture into the blogosphere has created a minor sensation for a short time. Since a few of you gave me a standing ovation on the announcement of my potential retirement from TWW comments, I will continue to weave in and out for a while longer with diminished wit and wisdom.
Ava, Max, church is where you find it. And sometimes what seems like a loss (like what has happened in the SBC) is really just a higher call. No matter how many pastors tell us we cannot stay close to Christ outside the confines of a local church, it isn’t true. Sometimes you get promoted to a wider field.
Every so often I take a hiatus so I get what you’re saying.
But the comments section can as interesting as the main article.
And good luck with diminished wit & wisdom, you can’t really turn that off.
Wait, WHAT???
Max,
Tell me this isn’t so. Please contact me at my email, and I will give you my number.
It ain’t so. As I noted upstream at 9:29 am, after further reflection “I will continue to weave in and out for a while longer with diminished wit and wisdom.” I entered 2023 a bit melancholy; I’m over it now.
Max,
I am sorry if I overreacted. I like you so much. My husband always reads your comments. You are a true blue member of TWW. Please let me know if I can help in any way.
dee,
Hope you and your husband are on the mend from the Covid hit. I had a touch of it about this time last year … a mild case, felt like a head cold. Since your husband reads my comments, I’ll pray for a new measure of wisdom in 2023 to give him something to ruminate on 🙂
Just like a lot of Muslims after 9/11, closing ranks in tribalism.
In the words of the Prophet Alfred Yankovic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyV_UG60dD4