Conga Line: Creative Commons
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“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.” Questionable attribution
One of the best things about blogging for so many years is discovering that I have documented so much stuff that it makes posts like this easy peasy.
Here is a tweet I sent this morning.
For those of you who prefer to hear about this straight from the horse’s mouth, here’s the man himself.
Brent Detweiler sent me the following link to one of my favorite satirists, Spinderella Sproul: RC Sproul Jr Announces New Church Racket
On December 9, 2020 RC Sproul Jr incorporated SOVEREIGN GRACE FELLOWSHIP, INC. as a Domestic Nonprofit Corporation. The following month RC Jr announced that Sovereign Grace Fellowship was a 501(c)(3) church and donations are tax-deductible.2 Later he announced Sunday church services would begin in his Fort Wayne home on February 14. Weeks prior he was also soliciting donations to buy an expensive piece of land, ostensibly to build a church building, bible college, and pastor’s retreat center. More recently he announced the price of the land is $1.2 million. “The great news is the owner has agreed to finance it. We just need to come up with half in cash.”
Another one of our readers, “GNL,” posted a comment detailing why RC Jr’s land purchase and church construction scheme has the indicia of a religious scam:
$1.2 million is just for the land. This means the church construction costs would add $ millions more to the final bill. For those of us who know RC Jr’s criminal history of tax fraud, identity theft, pilfering $ hundreds of thousands from the church coffers, commingling church and ministry funds, and ripping off other churches and ministries in travel expense scams, it’s all too obvious his church building fundraiser is a fraud. Any donations he receives won’t be safely locked away in an escrow account. Donations won’t be held by a third-party trustee. He’ll be in charge of the money himself, which means he’ll use it to pay himself a lavish salary.
He’s expecting people to pony up $600,000 as a down payment for an expensive piece of land before he even knows if anyone will be attending his home church? Nothing about this passes the smell test.
For those of you who forget RC Sproul Jr’s checkered past, read the entire post at Spinderella Sproul. However, a few years back, I wrote a rather amusing post that only partially outlined Sproul’s checkered past, including the claim he taught about the positive benefits of wife-spanking. Then again, he was the manager for the Pittsburgh Pirates (SB Nation) website for a whole two days before he was canned. Folks, you can’t make this stuff up!
PS His church is not a member of the Sovereign Grace Churches but I find the name in keeping with his apparent disconnect from reality. Then again, maybe the name is prophetic…
Let’s Take a Breather With A Bizarre Story about R.C. Sproul Jr and the Pittsburgh Pirates. This Is NOT a Parody!
R.C. Sproul is the father of R.C. Sproul Jr. (I bet you would’ve guessed that.)
Let’s do a quick history lesson. R.C. Sproul Jr is not a chip off the old block as far as I can tell. Yes, he is the son and namesake for his father, R. C. Sproul, a well-known Reformed theologian, who passed away in 2017. Here is a quick bio on dad from Wikipedia so you get the idea.
…an American theologian, author, and ordained pastor in the Presbyterian Church in America. He was the founder and chairman of Ligonier Ministries (named for the Ligonier Valley just outside Pittsburgh, where the ministry started as a study center for college and seminary students) and could be heard daily on the Renewing Your Mind radio broadcast in the United States and internationally. Under Sproul’s direction, Ligonier Ministries produced the Ligonier Statement on Biblical inerrancy, which would eventually grow into the 1978 Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy, of which Sproul, alongside Norman Geisler, was one of the chief architects.[3][4] Sproul has been described as “the greatest and most influential proponent of the recovery of Reformed theology in the last century.”[
R.C. Sproul Jr has a rather checkered past when it comes to Christian ministry.
Forgive my rather quick review of his checkered past but it will help you understand what is to follow. Junior worked off and on for years in his father’s ministry. However, in-between times, crazy things occurred.
The wife spanking controversy:
Julie Anne Smith outlined this in The Christian Patriarchy Movement’s Dark Secret of Wife Spanking
As Doug Phillips and his Vision Forum ministry is sinking, stories of abuse among Christian Patriarchy are surfacing: domestic violence, wife spanking, etc, among other well-known circles such as RC Sproul Jr., etc.
She included comments from readers who claimed he allegedly spanked his wife.
R.C Sproul Jr (hereafter referred to as RCSJ) was defrocked for spiritual abuse, identity theft, and other financial irregularities.
According to the Pearcey Report:
R.C. Sproul, Jr., has been defrocked as a minister in the Westminster Presbytery of the Reformed Presbyterian Church General Assembly.
Sproul, son of the well-known theologian, author, and highly respected apologist R.C. Sproul, had been associate pastor of St. Peter Presbyterian Church in Abingdon, Va. He is also founder of the Highlands Study Center, located in nearby Bristol, Va.
…Among the reasons for the disciplinary action are charges of spiritual abuse of members and attendees of St. Peter Presbyterian Church, as well as financial irregularities that include the “identity theft” of another church’s Federal Tax I.D. number.
According to the Declaratory Judgment, the deposed men are subject to an ecclesiastical trial, “pending additional charges, both public and personal, that are currently being investigated.” The document charges the men with a “consistent pattern of actions” that are “duplicitous in nature” and that the men “demonstrate that they willingly and knowingly act in an arbitrary fashion in violation of their vows of ordination.”
Here is a link to the whole sordid PDF from WESTMINSTER PRESBYTERY REFORMED PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH GENERAL ASSEMBLY.
RCSJ then transferred to the CREC which is the denomination started by the infamous Doug Wilson who thought it was just nifty to preside over the marriage of a pedophile to a naive young woman. So this comes as no surprise.
The SPPC Session issued a letter of apology and asked to be released from general membership in the RPCGA, and the denomination granted their request. SPPC requested pastoral oversight from the CREC, which accepted the congregation as a full member in October 2007.[13] The Confederation of Reformed Evangelical Churches (CREC) examined the case and accepted Sproul as an ordained minister in good standing in 2006. In 2010 Sproul transferred his ordination to the denomination Covenant Presbyterian Church (CPC).
Allegedly the PCA didn’t want RCSJ.
Sproul was first ordained in the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (ARP). After a failed attempt to transfer into the Presbyterian Church in America,[1] he was ordained in the Reformed Presbyterian Church General Assembly(RPCGA) in 2000, but in January 2006, Sproul and the Session of SPPC were deposed from office by the denomination under charges including including “abuse of authority in an inexcusable manner” against several families, illegal use of the ARP’s tax identification number, planting a church without authority, and practicing paedocommunion.[2] The SPPC Session issued a letter of apology and asked to be released from general membership in the RPCGA,[3] and the denomination granted their request.[4] Sproul and SPPC then requested pastoral oversight from the Confederation of Reformed Evangelical Churches and were accepted into that denomination.[5]
Then there was the Ashley Madison matter.
Ligonier Suspends R. C. Sproul Jr. over Ashley Madison Visit
And the really bad drunk driving incident with his kids in the car.
RC Sproul Jr Is Now a Convicted Felon Alcoholic and Is One Step Away From a Tragedy
So given all of this, one would think that RCSJ would try to fade into the blessed arms of obscurity…Instead…
He got a job running the SB Nation (Pittsburgh Pirates) website to which I say “You have heard of Google, haven’t you?”
This goes under the classification of: “Didn’t you know this would happen?” Laura Wagner writing for Deadspin wrote SB Nation Hired A Disgraced Pastor To Lead A Team Site And, Hoo Boy, Readers Have Questions [Update]
This week, SB Nation hired Christian Twitter personality R.C. Sproul Jr. to take over its Pittsburgh Pirates team site, Bucs Dugout. Sproul Jr. was brought in to fix a problem left over from the site’s previous leadership,
Basically, his job was to clean up the free-for-all which characterized this website. Here is how he introduced himself, leaving out the more interesting details of his life.
Some of you have been waiting more intently for the announcement of the new site manager than for opening day. I’m the guy, and I thought it prudent to introduce myself. I have made my living as a writer and editor for more than 25 years. I’ve written for national magazines, various websites and have published more than a dozen books. I have been a fan of the Pittsburgh Pirates my whole life.
One of the first commenters had this to say:
After reading a bit about your background elsewhere, including a conviction for drunk driving, getting caught up in the Ashley Madison scandal, being “defrocked” in your ministry, allegations of the misuse of tax numbers, some way out talk about wife spanking etc., I’d like to suggest that you give BD a detailed explanation of the above and anything else you think we should know about you.
We all know that there’s a lot of B.S. on the Internet, and I’d hate to think that the numerous blog posts and articles out there claiming to detail your transgressions are not telling the truth and unfairly besmirching your character.
I’m thinking that Vox Media hired you in some part to be a “moral compass” for the degenerates here who like to curse like sailors and, God forbid, post a pic or two of a chick in a bikini.
To which he answered (obviously irritated that someone looked him up)
You can read what you like about me on the internet, and you can believe what you wish. There are things that are true, and things that are false, things I’m ashamed of, and things I’m not happy about being falsely accused of. The important thing is that this is not a website about me, but about the Pirates. I’d encourage everyone to take a breath, think about baseball and relax. My commitment to following the rules means no one here needs to worry about my politics. No one here needs to worry about my views on hot button social issues. No one here needs to worry about anything. My desire is the same as yours, that this place would be a welcoming place where we can talk about the Bucs. I will not be looking at any of you in light of behavior here in the past. I most certainly won’t be googling any of you. I will, and I will encourage all of us to, stick to baseball.
He probably misses the good old days when he could spank adults and church discipline anyone who questioned him. The comments continued and he answered one with:
Keeping things PG-13 is not meant to be a scientific term, but a general one. And we’re going to, if we must err, err on the side of the PG rather than the 13. Hope that is sufficiently clear. If you all must continue to argue the issue, feel free, But I won’t participate. Let’s talk about baseball.
To which, a commenter said:
I have Scooby Doo playing all day on a TV that is aimed at the street. Did you ever see how Daphne is drawn? How about Weird Science? Did you see the ladies in that that PG-13 film? Or how about Howard the Duck? Rated PG. Wait! There’s more! How about EVERY SINGLE DISNEY BEACH FILM! A lady, wearing a bikini and boots, holding a Pirate Flag is no more then I would see on the damn TV or walking around the beach in the summer time and wouldn’t even merit a glance by the Motion Picture Association of America. How about Spaceballs!
Obviously, things were going downhill fast.
He got canned after two days on the job.
On Bucs Dugout, a brief post published today at 12:44 p.m. ET by “SB Nation Staff” said:
We have decided to terminate our contract with R.C. Sproul Jr. effective immediately and he will no longer contribute to Bucs Dugout. SB Nation always endeavors to create a welcoming and inclusive community for its readers.
Sproul Jr.’s tenure as site manager lasted two day
This leaves me with one question…
1
I am so grossed out by this, Dee. Ugh. SMH. What is with these guys who think they get to resurrect themselves, but don’t do the heart change they need to do?
I could never stand RC Spraul Senior, to be honest. I mean he literally made me sick for some reason when I heard him back when I was in evangelicalism I thought he is a toned-down Bill Gothard. There were issues with him as well concerning financial issues.
Vids: preferring Estefan & the Miami Sound to the grifter’s ker-ching sound of the $$$ (of others) needed to start up his business.
Some people sure know how to work the system of seeking from others their tax-free income for their “non-profit” pockets, and maybe that’s all they know.
Don’t forget his take on and use of “grace”:
http://www.journalgazette.net/features/20190613/his-fathers-forgiveness
“Sproul, 53, who moved to Fort Wayne in February 2017 after marrying his wife, Lisa, in October 2016, used his new perspective to write his 12th book, “Growing Up (with) R.C.: Truths I Learned About Grace, Redemption and the Holiness of God.””
Ah, new perspective! What might that be?
“I wanted to be able to go to all those people out there whose sin they know and no one else knows and to be able to say to them: As our sin gets exposed and we repent of it, it is covered and gone,” he says.”
And if they happen to buy books and throw speaking fees his way, there’s a bonus! Perhaps he might join Tullian in such engagements. And wouldn’t you know it, someone commented that TT wrote the forward for this book! (One neat part of this scenario is Jr. and TT can spin that they’re not really overseers any more, conveniently forgetting how not many are to be teachers. Also, the compromised imaging of disqualified pastors not only deeming themselves worthy to teach but to still seek to profit from ministry is massively problematic. Perhaps the sheep (sic) need to educate themselves on the items about filthy lucre (1 Timothy 3, Titus 1, 1 Peter 5) before they up for a grace-riffic shearing from the likes of them.
“The legacy his father left him, Sproul says, is the message of the Gospel, which is forgiveness. God is the one who rebuilds even from the worst of sins. He’s writing his next book, tentatively titled, “The Grace of Scandal, and the Scandal of Grace.””
Another book; $o much wisdom to impart! Perhaps Romans 6:1-2 will be spun winsomely: “What then will we say? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Never may it be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?”
The message of the Gospel comes with the call “to repent and to turn to God, doing works worthy of repentance” (Acts 26:20, cf. Matthew 3:8). Does Sproul evince understanding of that?
More from memory lane and Sproul Jr.: “One of the hardships is that everybody who knew me before and knows that this all happened, they all felt like they have stock in me and that they were owed a personal apology, and they want that personal apology to be as intense as it might have been the day after. I repented a long time ago, and God forgave me, and I am not carrying that burden around anymore.”
Outrageous. No burden of any consequences, ‘cuz grace? But… is that “Biblical”? Perhaps Jr. might recall King David and the reality that God’s grace did not exempt from consequences him or others whose actions were affected by his misdeeds. Perhaps such relevant Scripture is not a burden that the “new perspective” in his book chooses to carry.
As noted, he was “defrocked as a minister in the Westminster Presbytery of the Reformed Presbyterian Church General Assembly”:
http://www.pearceyreport.com/archives/2006/02/post_53.php
“Among the reasons for the disciplinary action are charges of spiritual abuse of members and attendees of St. Peter Presbyterian Church, as well as financial irregularities that include the “identity theft” of another church’s Federal Tax I.D. number.”
Also note that the church in question belongs to the same the Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches (CREC) as Doug Wilson’s, and has as part of their mission to “administer the sacraments and moral discipline within the church”:
http://www.saintpeterpresbyterian.org/about-st-peter-presbyterian-church.shtml
So at the start, this guy signed up for doling out discipline and consequences and getting paid for same. (Guess mumbling sorry in an impersonal way whether or not whoever is affected is present to hear the general comment — which is not unknown in the world of spiritual abuse but seems to be standard operating procedure — doesn’t merit a get out of discipline free card for the sheep.)
Then, he’s party to “charges of spiritual abuse of members and attendees” and “financial irregularities that include the “identity theft” of another church’s Federal Tax I.D. number.”” (Will his grace/scandal-focused book contend that relieving one’s self of burdens on this front is Biblical rather than what David suggested be done to the rich man who took the only lamb from the poor man right before Nathan pointed out “thou art the man”? Or might a NT example be forwarded like Luke 19:8 — “And Zacchaeus having stood, said to the Lord, “Behold, half of my possessions, Lord, I give to the poor; and if I have defrauded anything of anyone, I restore it fourfold.”)
But now, this guy who apparently was involved in affecting many people on the spiritual abuse side and financial abuse side looks to have the unmitigated gall to chafe at people affected wanting the bare minimum of consider of — gasp — a personal apology! He even appears to issue caveats on the intensity of said apologies corresponding to time away from the incident (or from when he got caught, take your pick). He honestly acts like those who paid towards his salary and ministry have no stock in him, those who official reports indicate were subject to spiritual and financial abuse in which he was involved. Sickening.
We have the first scenario — paid pastor schooled in discipline-dealing and top-down authority wielding. We have the second one — reportedly doing what he wanted regardless of impact on the church body and others. We have the third — going back to money-making off of his take on gospel things while evidently casting as “hardship” getting called on his actions and waiting on genuine acts of repentance commensurate with his misdeeds, while appearing to set the terms for how much repentance is needed and to whom before getting back to the “gospel” lecture/book/teaching/public news circuit.
Some Scripture comes to mind in this scenario: “By their fruits you will recognize them” (Matthew 7:16). Also, “everyone did what was right in his own eyes” (Judges 17:6b). In scenarios one, two, and three, how might that apply to RC, TT, et al, and what is there to know from the fruit thereof?
Nauseating. Elder rule church…not even pretending to be elder led…BIG RED FLAG.
And in the new video, he speaks of a “vision” for a church at a pastors college. Brick and mortar real estate, yet again. Amazing how many of these visions involve 7 to 8 figures, guaranteed revenue streams, and hard assets – – all of which may not go through normal business protocols but perchance centralized, top-down autocratic controls, ‘cuz vision and authority.
I live the Conga line analogy… I have to admit the TWW has made go back and listen to the Miami sound machine a lot….
I am going to guess that Ft Wayne Indiana averages TWO churches at every corner and will probably be hard to find people who are not already part of a congregation. Think how happy other pastors in Ft. Wayne are to hear RCSJ’s ice cream truck rolling down the street at nap time playing his annoying jingle.
PRECIOUS(TM) IS ON THE COMEBACK TRAIL?
(With his Elder Board of Jack Daniels, Jim Beam, and Johnny Walker?)
“IO, TRIOMPHE!”
Hardships? Why not stay out of their faces then?
That was my first concert! I was 8.
Whenever dee posts an article about a unrepentant pastor starting a new church, I feel sad, but never surprised. It’s what unrepentant pastors do.
His theology does sound a lot like TT’s. But I bet your bottom dollar that neither of them extend that kind of “grace” to others or church members.
Sometimes the “three generation curse” unfolds in two generations.
Me thinks it generally a bad idea for sons to follow fathers into ministry. They may not have the same motives.
IMHO, another POV:
-he’s looking for a friend, or two, with $$$ (not resurrection)
-behavior change that is visible evidence needed (rather than “heart” anything)
“Brent Detweiler sent me the following link to one of my favorite satirists, Spinderella Sproul: RC Sproul Jr Announces New Church Racket”
Talk about great satirists, gotta love the satire from “Ministerial Experts” in that article:
“Ministerial Expert Rev. Pastor Dr. RC Sproul Jr, D.Min. is now available for consultations with ministers embroiled in scandals. Areas of damage control expertise include, but not limited to, DUI (booze and opioids), online adultery accounts, sexting, pedophile coverups, tax fraud, identity theft, pilfering church coffers, fundraising scams, travel expense scams, church keggers, plying minor children with booze, spiritual abuse, bullying congregants, defrockings, and so much more. Rev. Pastor Dr. Sproul Jr provides guidance in pretend-repenting as you arrange being suspended, with full pay. A year later you can return from suspension/paid-vacation as you arrange the terms of your “restoration,” along with a pay raise. Should any scandal be of a criminal nature Rev. Pastor Dr. Sproul Jr will counsel you how to resign “for personal reasons” while arranging a massive severance package. Rev. Pastor Dr. Sproul Jr will further guide you how to arrange a steady six-figure paycheck as an independent contractor from the ministry you pretend “resign” from. After waiting a year or so for the dust to settle (i.e. memories of your scandals begin to fade) Rev. Pastor Dr. RC Sproul Jr can guide you how to incorporate a 501c3 “church,” appoint yourself as its “Pastor,” and declare yourself “restored,” all because God forgives you. As the head of your very own “church” you can solicit donations to pretend-construct a church building. Not that any donations will be escrowed for construction costs though. Just use them to pay yourself a massive six-figure salary. It may not be ethical or moral, but it’s all “legal.” Faux-repentance is your key to success. Family connections (nepotism) further enhance your odds of success. For a fee schedule contact RC Sproul Jr via his Ashley Madison account email: coramdude@gmail.com“
Julie Anne,
The people who give them money are equally to blame.
brian,
Yes, there were issues with Sproul Sr. For example, he said that “Arminians are Christians, barely.” http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/12/20/r-c-sproul-reformed-theologian-and-founder-of-ligonier-ministries-dies-at-78/
Ava Aaronson,
On my way to bed last evening, I was singing Conga at the tope of my lungs.
A-greed$$$
JDV,
Great summary.
rg,
There are so many red flags in this story that they are recycling the old Soviet Union flags!
Notice the name of the church-Sovereign Grace. It isn’t a member of the SBC but he is copying Mahaney in many aspects, including the pastors college. The guy hasn’t had an original thought in his life.
I apologize for the inconvenience. However, my husband always stops and watches the video a couple of time each time I put it in a post.
I bet there are a fair amount of people think he is Sproul Sr. and Junior knows it.
Awesome comment!!!
ishy,
I bet he throws daddy’s sermons, etc around to impress the locals.
I do not believe that ministries should hire the celebrity kids. They are usually no as good as daddy and they are used to living a pretty good lifestyle.
Sam,
Thank you so much for putting this in your comment. i wanted to do it but was afraid the post would be too long. Don’t you love it???
Like you I appreciate such humor. Helps me not get so infuriated reading the article. I also appreciate the opening line: “Were RC Sproul Jr to ever receive a Lifetime Achievement Award it might be for, ‘Most Lifetime Scandals By A Pastor/Minister’.” Tragic but absolutely true.
A commenter there quotes Carl Trueman from another Spinderella Sproul article, RC Sproul Jr Sit Down, Shut Up, Go Away!”
“We’ve had a couple of these recently — high profile guys who’ve been caught in pretty catastrophic sin, and then have used their sin, they’ve parlayed that into their Great Restoration Narrative. They’re now available for public speaking. I want to say to those guys: sit down, shut up, and go away! Get yourself a proper job, pay taxes; we don’t want to hear from you again. Be a good member of your local church. Serve on the toilet cleaning roster or something. We don’t want you as a public speaker, and we don’t want you parlaying your adultery or your drunkenness or whatever into the greatest comeback since the resurrection. We don’t want that. We don’t need that. And you call into question by doing that the genuineness of your repentance, because it doesn’t seem that you understand quite how far you fell… I absolutely believe in grace. But I do not believe that restoration to fellowship is the same as restoration to office or authority. They’re two distinct things. They’re distinct in Scripture. They’re distinct in the church today. Yes, the adulterer, the murderer, can be restored to fellowship in the church. But whether the adulterer should ever stand in a pulpit, or stand in any position of de facto teaching authority, is an entirely different question.”
So obvious Carl Trueman is targeting RC Jr and Tullian.
“How to become a rich MegaPastor?
1) Be born the son of a rich MegaPastor. Especially if your name ends in ‘Junior’.
2) Find a rich MegaPastor with no sons and marry his daughter.”
Just Like Game of Thrones!
They deserve each other.
The word “Grace” in the official name of a church or parachurch should be treated the same as “People’s Democratic” in the official name of a country:
“The more adjectives about Democracy in a country’s official name, the nastier a Dictatorship it is.”
— TV Tropes, “People’s Republic of Tyranny”
Off topic but posting a prayer request: we are due our second covid shot next week. We live in the country, on mountain roads, and snow is predicted for the day and night before.
Please pray we get our shots safely and on time!
Thanks!
I imagine that being a pastor is the only way that most know how to make money so is the easiest thing for them to do.
I have shared this in other posts, another theory with why a lot of pastors like Sproul Jr. return is especially with those that are high on the narcissism scale is that these “pastors” crave attention. Thus when they step down they miss all the attention and admiration they receive. I don’t know enough about Sproul or heard him speak to estimate where he is on the narcissism scale but wouldn’t surprise me.
IMO with what he has done in the past he really should be disqualified for life.
I understand that Sproul Sr. overlooked Sproul Jr.’s alcoholism for quite a while. My guess is that Sproul will continue to struggle with that or go back to full time drinking but I may be wrong.
dee,
“What a shame your superiors’ elbow got jogged”.
“What a good thing God allowed you to be saddled with such a melodramatic religious teacher, He must have thought you were too morally equivalent to need better”.
“We are passionate about crafting and curating your hysterical experience at our designer Bible School (TM) outlet”.
Thanks, Dee. It is so telling of the vast Evangelical world that you never run out of material. Thanks for all the hard work you do in your effort to sound the alarm that you aren’t going away—that these stories will not be repeatedly swept under the proverbial bargain-basement sale-priced carpet of CHEAP grace.
Michael in UK,
late addendums in right hand column respectively:
(pincer movement)
(replication of victim mentality)
(both combined)
JDV,
From Ashley Madison to drunk driving with his kids in the car to asking for $ millions to build a mega-church to lecturing everyone about “grace,” he sure does get around. What is sad is people will give him money and be eager to attend his church.
This reminds me of the old line from “The Music Man”. When Professor Harold Hill is asked, “How far are you going, friend?” He replies, “Wherever the people are as green as the money…friend!”
These snake oil salesmen only exist because people keep giving them money. They need to STOP!
Couldn’t he get into some kind of trouble for naming his church “Sovereign Grace” when it’s not part of THE “Sovereign Grace” syndicate? Seems like some kind of ‘false advertising’ kind of thing maybe…
I LOVE the mental image of this analogy! Men like the Pied Piper are still alive and well!
Grace for me but not for thee.
Dee, I posted over the noon hour——-and didn’t say any bad words at all, but my post did not go up. The message was that it was waiting to be vetted or something like that. Was there a problem? Ruth
That’s the problem. People put up with this. Hopefully exposure like this will help.
“R.C. Sproul Jr has a rather checkered past when it comes to Christian ministry”
I have no doubt that he will have a checkered future. Some folks never get it. I’m the first to forgive a truly repentant fellow with a checkered past (heck, I played checkers before coming to Christ) … but restore a bad-boy to ministry?!! Only in America, I suppose. Watch out pew, here he comes!
The American church is too trusting of anyone titled “Pastor” … but, this is not your Grandma’s church; wolves have come into the sheepfold. Beware! Test the spirits to see if they be from God (begin by looking more closely at their “checkered past”)
An actor would not have a stage if he didn’t have an audience willing to buy tickets to the show.
= Antinomianism, where “Christians” are released by grace from the obligation of observing the moral law. There is a fringe of New Calvinism drifting in that direction. You can fill a church with cheap grace preaching … some folks love to have preachers who are no better than themselves and will pay to keep them in the pulpit.
Thank you, Dee, for all your hard work. The Evangelical world is making sure you never run out of material! I’m so glad that you are on to these guys. They surely know by now that you are not going to allow their behavior to be simply swept under the proverbial bargain-basement sale-priced carpet of cheap grace.
The RZ report is out
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/rzimmedia.rzim.org/assets/downloads/Report-of-Investigation.pdf
This religious pandemic may never end! The “Dones” may soon be the largest growing segment of the Christian population in America … done with “church”, but not done with Jesus. The COVID pandemic has caused many churchgoers to take a more serious look at the counterfeit church – many will never go back.
“Son of man, do you see what the elders of the house of Israel do in the dark, each man in his secret room … repulsive acts which they are committing … they say, ‘The Lord does not see us'” (Ezekiel 8)
Mr. Zacharias knows now that the Lord saw him.
Didn’t Piper do this, too?
Is this worthy of a new thread? This documents “grooming” and other bad behavior, as well as (although this was not a focus of the investigation) questionable financial arrangements.
Jacob,
RZ was probably a case study for a “Master groomer” and a system that enable it….. sigh….
That is a most disturbing thing about the RZ mess. Some RZ staff, family, ministry friends, others surely suspected and/or knew about his trespasses. No one … no one … is too big to fail. Know something … say something!
Max,
Unfortunately, many of us raised flags about RZ years ago, and the system blew us off….. my issue was his “honorary degree, et al” , and I had dialogs where people blew it off…
many years ago, I also raised issues when “things were exaggerated” “ for the cause”…. in other evangelical circles..
once people get the mind set that Christianity is just like “ marketing” a product, people that really do not have strong scruples will be able to exploit the system…. which raises other issues, like “ does Christianity really need to be “ marketed”??
Merchandising the Gospel is condemned in Scripture:
“For we are not like many, acting like merchants peddling God’s word, shortchanging and adulterating God’s message; but from pure uncompromised motives, as commissioned and sent from God, we speak His message in Christ in the sight of God.” (2 Corinthians 2:17)
America’s Christian Industrial Complex is largely populated by ministers and ministries who do not operate with “pure uncompromised motives, as commissioned and sent from God.” As Bonhoeffer said, they peddle “Cheap grace sold on the market like cheapjacks’ wares.”
There are too many men in the pulpit with a touch of charisma, a gift of gab, and a bag of gimmicks who go into ministry for personal gain, fame, and power. They will pay an eternal price for profiting off the precious name of Christ who they did not truly know.
Agreed. It’s an awful pandemic which has infected the core of the American church. God don’t like it and I don’t either!
FYI:
I come across this through YouTube today, it’s an updated statement:
https://www.rzim.org/read/rzim-updates/board-statement?fbclid=IwAR2ymJN21WXV4BywwwnfBMOvxHRl-BP7V9xqvMK8VsNCd0pj4xR01Bfwvkg
“Open Letter from the International Board of Directors of RZIM on the Investigation of Ravi Zacharias”
It’s no longer accusing but proven that Ravi Zacharias is guilty of rape.
Brian,
Wow
Religious Cr@p Is KING?
hmmm…
(LIVE) Conviction, church dirt matters not.
Give us something we can really use…
grin
Don Henley – Dirty Laundry has it right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANly1j1LpOU
ATB
Sòpy
I have to believe that some on that Board knew of RZ’s misbehaving and did not call him to account because he was too big to fail, too important to the mission of RZIM, too many donor dollars at stake. Without RZ to hear them now, they speak with “shattered hearts” to deflect attention from themselves.
Max,
They did know, for years, that RZ LIED about his academic credentials…. as I keep saying, in a real academic world, he would be immediately fired for this…
Just like Mark Driscoll would be for his clear plagiarism..
At least the board’s response now seems to be full of apologies.
It seems to me that, if they want to continue their ministry, his name needs to come off of it now that the name is full of mud. No amount of apologizing will clear the stink.
I’ll be honest. I don’t think they care about or believe in theology. TT and RC Jr are using this theology because it gives them a pass to keep the charade going. I’ve seen both of these guys speak. Neither are the brightest bulbs in the room and both are using their family celebrity status to generate jobs for themselves, because I doubt they could on their own.
But like I said before, I also don’t think they really believe in it because I doubt they extend that same grace to others. We’ve definitely seen that from TT and I doubt RC Jr is much different. I’ve known a free “free grace” people, and they only talked about free grace when they personally got something out of it. Their grace suddenly ran dry if anyone else needed help.
readingalong,
Especially when RZ would give talks to college students all about “Truth”, etc, etc…. he basically taunted people…
people keep saying, “we are all sinners, etc, etc”… true, but if you are going to give “talks” like RZ did, you should not be a “predator” and a “institutional lier”.. . that people in the audience can research…
And, thus, you will hear a lot about grace-this and grace-that in their preaching to cover their sins, without ever truly knowing Grace or leading others to it. There are church folks who like preaching like that because they are never exhorted to be holy. In such places, there is an ungodly covenant between the pulpit and pew where the pulpit says “You be faithful to come and support this broken cistern stuff and I won’t challenge you with living water.” The pew responds “Yes pastor, please feed our flesh not our spirit, make us feel good about ourselves, and we will take care of you.” Such is life within antinomian ranks.
Max,
There does seem to be a lot of, “Come as you are and stay as you are – be as complacent as you want but I will teach you how to put up a nice religious facade.”
Jeffrey Chalmers,
Read my posat tonight, Do you know you commented on my post in 2015 about his credentials? Good for you! You were suspicious just like me back then.
dee,
Unfortunately, I knew/ suspected his fake credentials years before…. I was snookered by him, and Veritas Forum back in 1992..
Jeffrey Chalmers,
From the report you linked:
“This witness told us that their relationship began as a normal massage therapist-client relationship, and she came to think of him as a father figure. He elicited information about her faith & her financial situation. She reported that after he arranged for the ministry to provide her with financial support, he required sex from her. According to this witness, Mr. Zacharias used religious expressions to gain compliance, as she was raised to be a person of faith. She reported that he made her pray with him to thank God for the ‘opportunity’ they both received. She said he called her his ‘reward’ for living a life of service to God, and he referenced the ‘godly men’ in the Bible with more than one wife. She said he warned her not ever to speak out against him or she would be responsible for the ‘millions of souls’ whose salvation would be lost if his reputation was damaged.”
Polygamist, predator, liar, … evil.
To be honest, these lying pick-up lines, or grooming arguments, or whatever the term is, are NOT new. However, ladies, better to starve or live in poverty than bargain with this evil (but no shade on this victim/witness who was thus entrapped by Mr. Theology/Apologist). Entrapment – that’s what this guy was about, or IOW pulpit predator.
As one girl said in a church youth group, after what she witnessed, “I’d never go to Heaven, that’s where the pulpit predator orgy is happening. Far better to end up in the other place where they honestly do their thing without the theological & church game play [entrapment].”
Sounds like Joseph Smith explaining the doctrine of Plural Marriage(TM).
Implied: “AND GOD WILL HOLD YOU ACCOUNTABLE!!!”
(Standard code words for Hellfire/Damnation Threat; heard it word-for-word from American Life League’s telemarketers during the Bork Nomination circus.)
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Yea, I thought of Joseph Smith also….or Breed-them-Young,
Linda, I prayed for you just now.
I was faced with the same thing yesterday for my first dose of the Moderna vaccine. Several seasoned veterans of life were at the clinic to become members of the immune herd. I prayed for your safe travel to and from the vaccination site and no side-effects. Be encouraged – Spring is just around the corner!
Easy believism.
Counterfeit church.
“Son of man, have you seen what the elders of Israel are doing in the darkness … Is it a trivial matter to do the detestable things they are doing here? … I will deal with them in anger; I will not look on them with pity or spare them. Although they shout in my ears, I will not listen to them.” (Ezekiel 8)
This grooming and exploitation sounds familiar. Locally we had an infamous case of a pastor who, in his case, “befriended” handsome young men in church, got them to talk about their problems and vulnerabilities, gave them gifts…
The church did let him go when a long list of problems became evident (but some of the problems were known about for a while). G.R.A.C.E. did a lengthy report on what happened and it was ugly to read.
I wasn’t going to say anything here but I had a family member who could have used pastoral care but I could not get anyone for something as simple as a visit and a prayer – unknown to me all of this drama was going on at the time and about to explode. I stopped attending there when a terminally ill family member wanted a pastor to visit and I could not get anyone to return my calls – the most I got was a rude run-around reply from a secretary.
They have a new head pastor. I recently got an email from the church about how they are going to have a great missions program in various countries. I deleted the email and just shrugged.
This isn’t a New Calvinist type of church. Such problems can happen anywhere. I think when the pastor is “too big to fail” it helps perpetuate behavior that shouldn’t happen.
I’m not anti-establishment but I have gone being a “good” church member to someone who might consider attending another church after the Covid thing is over but I don’t feel particularly enthusiastic about becoming a member anywhere.
Jacob,
I guess I should clarify that my terminally ill family member was elderly and experiencing an extended illness. When I finally talked to someone at the church they wanted to know if the person was dying that day (the person I spoke with sounded disinterested and impatient). I honestly responded that probably not but they were seriously ill and wanted someone to visit and pray.
I asked if a visit could be scheduled or someone could call me back. The answer was no but if someone happened to be “making the rounds at the hospital” they would pray for her. I knew they don’t visit hospitals to randomly “make the rounds” whatever that means.
For me it was like someone turned off a light switch. I immediately didn’t want anything more to do with the church if that was their idea of pastoral care. The scandal at the church about one of their pastor’s misconduct made the news a few months later and I was relieved I was away from there and missed that drama. I imagine the church was dealing with problems like how to keep the lid on a scandal and had no time to do some of the things I thought a church was supposed to do. Has anyone else experienced such a lack of pastoral care? I have really struggled no to be cynical.
Jacob,
I’m sorry I vented so much. All that happened to me was that a loved one got the short shrift because the church was in a dysfunctional mode and no doubt preoccupied with its own problems. Just that minor brush has left me a bit bitter. I can’t imagine what it is like to experience actual abuse and how one comes to terms with that.
Not five minutes ago, the RZ family were going to sue the shirts off all our backs. How come they are familiar with all the details “all of a sudden”?
Now here’s what I didn’t like, about ten years ago, browsing his pages for 90 seconds, and glimpsing fragments of video:
– Daniel exaggeration
– weird sentiments about cricket
– things that didn’t make sense around the suicide (albeit he did attempt it)
– the sickening YFC connection
– playing on exotic easterner, and carrying over fatalism under cover of bad calvinism
– illogical rambling of all kinds, and statements on non-religious subjects that didn’t make sense
– his face and body expressions (restaurant maitre d’)
– his lack of career
I “merely” thought, one more pathetic specimen to ignore. Just shows I should have gone ahead and taken action.
Now it turns out he even used to admit he was exaggerating.
And are the Sprouls / Ligoniers enviously struggling to emulate the Ortbergs’ commercial success? Or do they prefer the segregationist / manifest destiny Falwells’ instead?
Jacob,
You don’t need to apologize; we empathize with your situation! Such a sorry state of affairs, but at least you were able to see them for who they were. I remember I was happy to have both a pastor and an elder visit when I was attending my father-in-law’s last days (and my husband happened to be out of the country). It does make people feel more cared for.
readingalong,
Bless you! Having to be in a care-giver role is very demanding. You have to be running at 100% all the time. I’m glad your church was supportive.
When there is a narcissistic pastor who is out of control with his bad behavior, then there are things a pastor should be doing that aren’t being done or aren’t being done well, and that is a drain on how the church is run and that can have all sorts of fallout.
Jacob,
Thx for sharing. Been there, seen this, exactly as you describe, and as you mention, way beyond the Calvinista world – it’s everywhere.
Makes me think of the priest on the run in Graham Greene’s novel The Power and the Glory. Harried and stressed as he was (pursued by totalitarian police), he still made time to be with a dying old woman. A far cry from the protestant nincompoops here in our gated Elysium who masquerade as holy men.
Each a mob family in & of itself.
In RZ’s case, the whole outfit, i.e org, is a mob clan.
You are calling out the Christian Clans … ’bout time we church folk see this, what this is really all about.
So tithing is paying dues or Earthly connection & Eternal protection to one’s local clan? With a covenant to guarantee?
Stand in line at the end of worship to shake the hand or kiss the ring of the don?
It can happen anywhere, but it does not happen everywhere. It’s also not limited to Christian institutions or to religion. The problem, of course, is that some church leaders create the perfect petri dish for abuse. So do some families, political groups, societies…
Abuse can be prevented, identified, addressed, and defeated. People need to believe this.
BINGO!
Stuff that would never be tolerated in secular venues.
Jacob,
Yes. Mentoring, Bible studies . . . nothing advertised was happening or the atmosphere was totally erratic and out of it (that was a branch of C of E). I wasn’t outspoken enough. Everyone else was blinkered and in awe. Now I’ve just been “assured” they are running after the next least worst bad brand name that happened to get “its” scandal over & done with 5 years ago.
I want to mix only with people who keep their own hats on in future, and who don’t “wear the T shirt”.
R.C. Sproul Junior probably has an OnlyFans account, or some other seedy thing if I had to bet. What a disgusting hypocrite. Worth remembering though is that sites like Spinderella Sproul -some of them were well-documented at one time or another as having been in with the kinists, a racist group of Presbyterians that hate Jewish people, African-Americans, etc. No telling who all runs Spinderella but I bet it’s something “off” to put it mildly.
Kinists considered Sproul an “alienist” for adopting Riley, hating him for being a homeschooling patriarchal Rushdoony follower on their turf but still not quite one of them on race, “the Jewish Question”, the Civil War, World War II, etc. This stuff goes waaaaay back. You can see here for yourself that they’ve taken an interest in Sproul even in recent years:
https://faithandheritage.com/2016/12/r-c-sproul-jr-arrested-for-drunk-driving-fired-from-ligonier
The Reformed Presbyterian Church General Assembly cult was very much of this ilk, as was the Hushmoney people. They didn’t just go after Sproul Junior either, but his father, Doug Wilson, Doug Phillips -anyone they deemed not theocratically racist enough. They went to great lengths to go after these guys. They even got Jen Fishburne thinking like them on politics and history, which is crazy given her ex-husband Mark Epstein was Jewish and she herself had been kicked out of Phillips’ cult for voting Bush/Cheney back in 2000. Now she’s an ex-Christian, a Holocaust denier, a flat-earther, and God knows what all else.
Is there any preacher who passes your test of Christian purity and is therefore qualified to teach and minister to others?
How many would you like? Wade Burleson, my two Lutheran pastors, Joanne hUmmel, Jim Abrahamson, Pete Briscoe, Wes Ehret, Rich Shelds, Jimmy Hinton, …lots more but I;m getting tired of playing games with your passive agressive question.
jesse9876,
Great commen.t Thank you.
Well I saw this man at a conference in DFW, about 16-17 yrs ago.. and for the most part have followed his downfall… in detail, since I was associated with PCA and in ministry. We were very much influenced by submissions and authority theology so took what he said which was dangerous legalism .. and felt a need to believe homeschooling was a mandate… he was rigid as hell and believed u only can be PCA, homeschooler and classical teaching… I left thinking it was a sin if u didn’t homeschool. Did anyone hear what he said about being a Noncessationist now?? He now believes in the gifts of the Spirit! He is also an abuser and has an estranged relationship with some of his adult children… last I heard!
This reminds me so much of the pastor of my former church, and his family.
Pastor was seemingly a very nice man, a little cold but a good bible teacher. Until you know (and this was deliberately kept hidden from the church, I only knew because I was in leadership and friendly with the family) that their daughter was molested by Pastor senior, and that Pastor covered it up so that it wouldn’t ruin the family’s ministry.
Pastor junior was in his mid-late teens when this happened. He sided with his father in covering up grandfather’s abuse, and was even more adamant than his father that they should not go to the police. Pastor and pastor junior pressured daughter/sister into visiting pastor senior before he died, so she could tell him he as forgiven and he could go to heaven with a clear conscience.
Pastor junior now runs the church. He and his father were adamant that I was not allowed to divorce my abuser. Pastor refused to let me see church position papers on abuse and divorce. Pastor junior is revered in the church, but whilst serving in a different denomination as a student leader, he was caught lying about numerous subjects. He was asked to step back from his position, and was on the verge of being diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, when he was miraculously “healed” and stopped going to his secular therapist.
This family is honoured in that denomination as faithful servants, and held up as a great example of generational faithfulness and blessing.
i.e. They are gods come in the flesh.
Wow. So much for “forgiveness”. Your sarcastic tone doesn’t help much either. No wonder our young people are leaving the church in droves! I have listened to RC Jr. grovel about his failings for years now, openly repenting and asking forgiveness in every single interview I’ve heard. My 20-something daughter said, “Move on already!” I think all of you should move on too.
In our church, we have young people struggling with addictions, same-sex attraction, homosexual feelings, cutting themselves and suicidal depression. The fact that the church continues to hound this man after so many years tells these kids everything they need to know about what forgiveness by many in the church really means—and that’s not much. They see that after breaking from sin, the church will forever see them in that sin box and never, ever let them out.
This man has done some incredible work that I hope to hear more about. He’s humble enough to talk openly about how he fell into these sins in the first place, incredibly valuable information for our young people.
Can’t find anything Godly and uplifting to write about? Lying in wait for that “gotcha” moment? Move on already. Leave the man alone.
A. Ayer,
Since you know your Bible, explain to me why RCJr is not disqualified by utilizing the mandates of Timothy? RC can be a membercof a congregation if he is repentant. However, he does not appear to be pastor material if one takes Paul and the Epistles seriously.
This man has done some incredible work that I hope to hear more about. He’s humble enough to talk openly about how he fell into these sins in the first place, incredibly valuable information for our young people.
Can’t find anything Godly and uplifting to write about? Lying in wait for that “gotcha” moment? Move on already. Leave the man alone.
In the past week he’s been on multiple social media trashing his own children, calling them liars and saying their “wickedness knows no bounds.” If that’s true, he might want to stop advising other people on family life. If it’s not true, what does that say about him?
Sorry — I’m not sure why the first para in my post didn’t show up as a blockquote. Only the second para is mine.
Please consider this comment posted on Spinderella Sproul that addresses those naive Christians who hold to a pacifist philosophy towards the wolves in sheep’s clothing that Jesus warned us to be on our guard against:
I commend Dee that she doesn’t “Leave the man alone.” We’ll all leave RC Jr alone when he stops freeloading off the body of Christ, gets an honest day job, and ceases masquerading as a pastor.