Hurricane oni Saturn-NASA
“Habitual excuses for inactivity indicates little or no interest in what one ought to have done.” ―
In 2015 I wrote a post that featured my concerns about Ravi Zacharias’ lies about his academic biography. Complementarians, Ray Ortlund, and the Rediscovered Gospel,™ Doug Wilson Describes a Victim, Disagreeing With Rachel Held Evans and MR.Ravi Zacharias.
In this post, I said the following.
Begin excerpt
Has Evangelist Ravi Zacharias Misrepresented His Academic Credentials?
It seems like Ravi Zacharias is in a bit of a pickle. I apologize that I didn’t have time to consult Tim Bayly to see if a woman is allowed to point out pastors who lie. It appears that MR. Zacharias may have been fudging things his entire ministry. My question is simple. If he lies about this, what else does he lie about?
We are two atheists and a Christian who are concerned that a prominent evangelist, Mr. Ravi Zacharias, has engaged in misconduct that undermines academic integrity and misleads the public. We issue this press release with two primary goals in mind. First, we wish to draw attention to what we believe are the dishonest practices of Ravi Zacharias.
Their stated concern:
We believe that the problem of professional evangelical Christians exaggerating their academic credentials deserves much more media attention and public discussion than it currently receives. There is much grumbling even within Christian circles about the practice of honorary degree recipients using the “Dr.” title ‘
They credibly dispute the following claims of Ravi Zacharias:
- He was not a visiting scholar at Cambridge.
- He refers to himself as Dr Zacharias yet has no earned doctoral degree.
- He claims to have lectured at the world’s most prestigious universities.
- He claims to be a scholar yet has published nothing in scholarly journals and does not have peer-reviewed research.
Read more from this article here.
End excerpt
I knew that I would get some negative comments because “Raaahvi” (said with reverence and hymns playing in the background) was not to be questioned. At the time, I questioned his bio but who was I to inquire? Here is a comment by Jeff on that post. I shall title it “Nothing to see here. Move along.”
I continued to question RZ, especially when Lori Anne Thompson came forward with her story. Although she is still covered by the NDA, everyone is well aware of her story in which Ravi began grooming and then sexting with her. The stupid RZIM board supported Zacharias and did so in an open letter which has now been pulled from their website.
Unfortunately, “Jeff” was naive because he was “familiar” with his ministry. He, like the entire board of RZIM, “knew* Ravi was the real deal. Jeff is the face of all of those people and insiders who defended Ravi until recently. If you wonder how predators get their prey, study Ravi, his cadre of BFFs, and all of the Christians who, like lemmings, followed him. Some churches are using his books and studies as I write this.
Today, RZIM released the following letter: Open Letter from the International Board of Directors of RZIM on the Investigation of Ravi Zacharias. I am going to highlight the significant revelations.
- Tragically, witnesses described encounters including sexting, unwanted touching, spiritual abuse, and rape. We are devastated by what the investigation has shown and are filled with sorrow for the women who were hurt by this terrible abuse.
- We would like to thank each journalist, advocate, and concerned member of the public who brought accusations of sexual misconduct and abuse to our attention.(Ed. TWW started in 2015.)
- The investigation’s conclusions have caused us to think very differently about the allegations Mrs. Lori Anne Thompson made against Ravi in 2017.
- we recognize that because we did not believe the Thompsons and both privately and publicly perpetuated a false narrative, they were slandered for years and their suffering was greatly prolonged and intensified. This leaves us heartbroken and ashamed.
- We regret the statement that we released on September 15, 2020. It lacked compassion and concern and did not communicate that we would take the allegations seriously. Also, it gave the impression that all of RZIM’s staff shared the opinion that the allegations were fals
- We also regret the ways that many of us have publicly extolled Ravi’s character and the impact this will have had on victims of his abuse.
- in the wake of the accusations brought against Ravi by the Thompsons in 2017, we communicated our confidence in Ravi’s denial of these accusations, and others trusted Ravi because they trusted us. Through our failure, we made it more difficult for victims to come forward.
They are instituting the following actions.
- We have engaged victim-advocate Rachael Denhollander to act in two roles. As a consultant, she will educate and advise our Board and senior leadership in understanding trauma and abuse as well as best-standards practices. Rachael also has been retained to serve as a confidential liaison with survivors and to help guide the process of care, justice, and restitution for those who have been victimized. Survivors or their legal counsel, advocate, or representative may reach out to her confidentially at rjd.requests@gmail.com.
- We have engaged Guidepost Solutions, a management/compliance consulting firm, and are providing full disclosure to them to conduct a thorough evaluation of RZIM, including its structures, culture, policies, processes, finances, and practices.
- Survivor Care: Guidepost will provide confidential avenues for any survivors and witnesses, including any who have not yet come forward, to disclose information related to abuse or harassment at RZIM or by anyone employed by RZIM in the past.
Graphic/Trigger Warning: Here is a link to Report of Independent Investigation into Sexual Misconduct of Ravi Zacharias
I am going to pick and choose from this report but the entire report is available to the reader.
Massage “therapy” was used as a cover for his perversion. (Have any of these board members or employees ever heard of Jeffrey Epstein?)
- Although we were able to interview only one of the massage therapists anonymously referenced in the Christianity Today article, our investigation revealed other massage therapists who corroborate her account. Several massage therapists confirmed Mr. Zacharias’s frequent efforts to “try for more than a massage,” as one therapist put it. Eight therapists reported that Mr. Zacharias would start the massage either completely nude or would remove the sheets during the massage. Six therapists reported that he always or almost always had an erection during the massage. Four therapists reported that he would either touch his genitals or ask them to touch his genitals. And five therapists reported that he touched or rubbed them inappropriately.
- witness told us that their relationship began as a normal massage therapist-client relationship, and she came to think of him as a father figure. He elicited information about her faith and her financial situation. She reported that after he arranged for the ministry to provide her with financial support, he required sex from her.
Zacharias used religion as a way to gain compliance.
- She reported that he made her pray with him to thank God for the “opportunity” they both received. She said he called her his “reward” for living a life of service to God, and he referenced the “godly men” in the Bible with more than one wife. She said he warned her not ever to speak out against him or she would be responsible for the “millions of souls” whose salvation would be lost if his reputation was damaged.
- one therapist reported that Mr. Zacharias spent the first half of their first massage session asking about her spiritual journey and prior abuse. This set her at ease and made her feel that he cared for her as a person before he later asked her to massage his genitals
Zacharias often used monetary incentives.
- ome therapist also reported that Mr. Zacharias paid very well or would leave large tips and gave gifts that were at times lavish, such as a Persian rug or a Louis Vuitton wallet with $500 inside.
- used his ministry to financially support some of his long-term therapists.
- a significant portion of the wire payments from that fund went to or for the benefit of four women—
RZ traveled with a male employee from RZIM to provide a cover.
- all of the travel assistants we interviewed said that they never observed anything improper. (but)
- Most of them were aware, however, that Mr. Zacharias had a massage therapist who was often with him to provide treatments during his travels.
- A high-level RZIM staff member expressed concerns to Mr. Zacharias about it and encouraged him to stop travelling with her. In response, Mr. Zacharias grew angry and barely spoke to this staff member for a long period of time. He was effectively “sent to Siberia,” as another staff member recalled.8 Their relationship never fully recovered.
This predator was traveling for extended periods all over the world.
This is worrisome and something I have been pointing out for quite a while. Imagine the contact he could have had with vulnerable people all over the world? I believe that it is highly possible that he could have met with untold numbers of women/or girls.
- According to a text message to a Thai masseuse in February 2016, he spent his days writing and his nights receiving massage treatments
- We also learned that for several years, Mr. Zacharias owned two apartments in Bangkok.
Lori Ann Thompson investigation: No release from NDA
RZIM Board was stupid and accepted his ridiculous excuses. Maybe it was easier to pretend nothing was wrong…
- Because Mr. Zacharias was able to convince members of the RZIM Board and management that he was the victim of extortionists, RZIM did not investigate the allegations
- A full investigation might have uncovered evidence of misconduct at a time when Mr. Zacharias was alive to explain himself.
- Mr. Zacharias told certain members of his staff that the phone records and full, complete emails would exonerate him, but he did not give them access to these documents. Two high-level staff approached him directly asking for the phone records, since he claimed they would prove exculpatory. Both of these staff members told us Mr. Zacharias responded to this request with rage and threatened to resign from the organization.
The case of the legal counsel’s missing notebook of evidence
- We were told that Mr. Zacharias’s lead counsel compiled a notebook of evidence related to the Thompson allegations and that it was made available for review by an RZIM Board member and an RZIM public relations consultant. We asked that law firm if we could review this notebook and received no substantive response.
- We also asked both the Executrix and the Thompsons, through their respective counsel, to agree to modify the NDA to allow us to speak to the Thompsons and otherwise investigate this matter. The Thompsons would agree to speak with us only if they were fully released from the confidentiality obligations in the settlement agreement. The Executrix declined to release the confidentiality obligations in whole or in part for any reason.
Two hundred photos of really young women!
His phones and other social media devices were *off the grid.*
- Witnesses told us that Mr. Zacharias had multiple phones and email addresses over time, and he had at least two phones at any given time. He insisted on remaining separate from official RZIM communication platforms, and his phones were on a separate plan rather than the RZIM plan.
- The four phones that Mr. Zacharias used and that RZIM provided to us for this investigation also provided significant, compelling evidence
- (He) kept translations of certain words and phrases in Thai and Mandarin. The Thai phrases included “I miss you so much. I want to see your face” and “little bit further.” The Mandarin phrases included: “softer, lighter”; “U R beautiful”; “not enough”; “I hope our love lasts forever”; “I love you from the bottom of my heart”; “I’d like to have a beautiful memory with you”; “Life is so wonderful bnecause [sic] I could meet you”; “Your lips are especially beautiful”; and “I love you darling.”
- Zacharias’s phones contained over 200 photographs of women much younger than him
Amorous relationships:
- (He) had extended communications with women over the years.
- (He had communications with two women in 2014.)One in Korea and one in Bangkok.) (With the woman in. Bangkok) Their communications imply that their relationship had a physical component. They discussed not being able to wait until they can be together, that he is “longing to hold [her] close again.” He further wrote: “Your face, your smile, your laugh, your touch, the way you love, your hard work, your heart, your care for me, your skill, and on and on and on.” He called her “beautiful in heart and in body.”
Here are some examples of what was in the photos.
- In addition to communications, Mr. Zacharias’s phones contained over 200 photographs of women much younger than him—including six of Lori Anne Thompson—and dozens of photographs he took of himself. For some of these women, he had only one or two pictures. However, some women appeared in numerous photographs over time. Among the more significant collections of photographs are 17 images of the young Thai woman who appears to be in her mid- 20’s described in the previous section that were taken between February 2, 2014, and November 1, 2019; 43 images of a young Indian woman who appears to be in her early 20’s taken between November 9, 2017, and November 8, 2018; 42 images of a blonde woman who appears to be in her mid-30’s and appears to work at a spa or salon taken between February 8, 2018, and February 12, 2020; and 52 images and 4 videos of a young Malaysian woman
- the photographs grew increasingly more suggestive, culminating in two photographs showing her bare breasts dated October 27, 2018, and a video of her fully naked and touching herself dated January 8, 2019. Two other women told us that Mr. Zacharias asked for nude photographs, which they refused to provide.
- In some, though, different women are “kissing” for the camera or otherwise suggestively posed. And one set contained nude images of a young Malaysian salon employee
RZ shamelessly lied. He received exploitative photos after instituting his RICO lawsuit against the Thompsons
- approximately three weeks after filing his RICO lawsuit, he appeared in a photograph with the Malaysian woman who sent him over 50 photographs over the next year, including nudes. He received a photograph from her the very next day after releasing this December 3, 2017 statement. While he told his staff that his real mistake in the Thompson matter was not alerting someone that he was receiving photographs of another woman, we have no indication that he ever went to RZIM management or its Board on the more than 200 occasions he received photographs of women during and after the Thompson matter.
- (He claimed) claimed, “In my 45 years of marriage to Margie, I have never engaged in any inappropriate behavior of any kind.(while he was receving these photos.
- (RZ) In my 45 years of marriage to Margie, I have never engaged in any inappropriate behavior of any kind.”
- His claim that he had long made it his practice “not to be alone with a woman other than Margie and our daughters” was similarly false
He paid for gifts, schooling, etc. for his women out of the funds of RZIM. One of those women he called “the love of his life.”
(One example of many) Mr. Zacharias’s lengthy text and email communication with the massage therapist from Bangkok whose culinary schooling he arranged for through RZIM and whom he called the “love of his life” occurred in 2014.
Conclusion of the investigators: The investigators claimed he used his *need* for massages to hide his misconduct in plain sight
As reported above, Mr. Zacharias’s inappropriate conduct often occurred when he was alone with massage therapists. Because his need for massage treatments was well known and accepted, he was able to hide his misconduct in plain sight.
Christianity Today, Daniel Silliman and Kate Shellnut, presented Ravi Zacharias Hid Hundreds of Pictures of Women, Abuse During Massages, and a Rape Allegation
Even a limited review of Zacharias’s old devices revealed contacts for more than 200 massage therapists in the US and Asia and hundreds of images of young women, including some that showed the women naked. Zacharias solicited and received photos until a few months before his death in May 2020 at age 74.
Zacharias used tens of thousands of dollars of ministry funds dedicated to a “humanitarian effort” to pay four massage therapists, providing them housing, schooling, and monthly support for extended periods of time, according to investigators.
One woman told the investigators that “after he arranged for the ministry to provide her with financial support, he required sex from her.” She called it rape.
CT pointed out the effects on the ministry of RZIM.
- Multiple speakers and RZIM staff members left the ministry during the course of the investigation, concerned about top officials’ initial response to the allegations. RZIM’s Canadian branch suspended fundraising efforts and donation collection through April, while the UK-based Zacharias Trust is threatening to split if RZIM does not apologize to victims and institute major reforms. (Update: The day after the report was released the UK board voted unanimously to separate from RZIM and choose a new name.)
- RZIM leadership had shifted to reduce the involvement of the Zacharias family. Margie Zacharias, Ravi’s widow, resigned from the board and the ministry in January, while her daughter Sarah Davis stepped down as board chair but remains CEO.
- The board (whose names are not publicly available) and leadership have been planning for a reckoning since investigators’ interim report in December prepared RZIM to expect the worst. (ED Why are the board members hiding?)
- Davis informed staff that some global offices may decide to separate from RZIM and become independent, national organizations.
- Other national boards are also in the process of disentangling themselves from the US headquarters, according to multiple sources inside the ministry.
- The Canadian apologetics ministry also laid off four team members, including Daniel Gilman, a speaker who decided he believed the women who accused Zacharias of sexual abuse and vocally challenged RZIM leadership to acknowledge complicity. Gilman told CT he was deeply concerned the ministry he loved would choose to rebrand but not repent.
- Many more layoffs are expected soon. RZIM employees told CT that they expect the international ministry, which once boasted 100 speakers and 250 staff members nationwide, will be reduced to a fraction of that. Davis told staff that layoffs will be announced in the weeks after the Miller & Martin report is released.
Statement (IN CT )by John Lennox who has left RZIM. Disclosure: I have met Dr. Lennox and admire his work.
John Lennox, a Northern Irish mathematician and apologist who famously debated Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, and other “new atheists,” has urged the UK branch of RZIM to separate. Lennox withdrew from all association with RZIM the day after CT reported the spa allegations, but told British apologists he would happily work with them if they were to form an independent organization.
“The current allegations are of such a serious nature that I cannot be involved in any ongoing activity in the name of RZIM,” Lennox wrote in a statement to the UK and US boards. “In my view, a renaming of the organisation and fundamental restructuring of the organisation and board needs to be done and done very quickly, if the potential of the marvelous young team of apologists is to be retained in any collective sense.”
NYT/ Ruth Graham presented: Ravi Zacharias, Influential Evangelist, Is Accused of Sexual Abuse in Scathing Report
- The report is a devastating blow for the reputation of a man who was for decades a widely admired evangelical leader. Born in Chennai, India, and boasting impressive academic credentials, he had a reputation among many evangelicals as a worldly and winsome intellectual. His ministry’s motto is “Helping the thinker believe. Helping the believer think.”
- The law firm also found a pattern of intimate text and email-based relationships with women. In reviewing his electronic devices, they found the phone numbers of more than 200 massage therapists and more than 200 selfies, some of them nudes, from much younger women. Mr. Zacharias also used the nonprofit ministry to financially support some of his long-term therapists. The report also reveals that he owned two apartments in Bangkok, where he spent 256 days between 2010 and 2014. One of his massage therapists stayed in the other apartment.
Christian Post/Op-Ed. Carson Weitnauer: The ‘greatest apologist’ Ravi Zacharias and his catastrophic betrayal
- When my family moved from Boston to Atlanta in 2013, I was thrilled to begin working at Ravi Zacharias International Ministries. Working closely with gifted apologists, I thanked God for the impact of Ravi’s growing ministry on audiences throughout the world. Serving together with so many passionate evangelists, I celebrated near-daily reports of those whose lives were being transformed by the Gospel.
- However, in September 2020, new evidence surfaced about Ravi’s relationship with Lori Anne Thompson. As I studied this information carefully – again and again and again – it slowly dawned on me that Ravi had personally and repeatedly lied to me and others in the ministry about his relationship with her. If true, it revealed that his RICO lawsuit was a malicious attempt to bully his victim into silence, and that Ravi had perjured himself in the effort.
See how Weitnauer’s concerns were met by the senior leadership at RZIM (starting in(2020)
- As I discussed these revelations with colleagues at the ministry this fall, I have often felt discouraged. A senior leader took the initiative to email me, saying, “While I agree that we should remain transparent with the truth, I don’t think repeating potential lies or passing on judgment are qualities we want to embody at Ravi Zacharias International Ministries.”
- Yet the day after I asked her a series of questions about the non-disclosure agreement between the Thompsons and the Zacharias estate, two senior leaders challenged me on the propriety of my questions. Unfortunately, I have heard similar stories from other colleagues within the ministry. It is only a matter of time before their voices are heard.
Here are his thoughts on going forward.
so we must not silence those who tell us the truth about Ravi’s egregious abuses. Instead, RZIM must change its name, remove Ravi’s material, repent for its many failures, and provide a restorative response to the harm that Ravi’s victims experienced. The depth of complicity by the board and senior leadership in this cover-up must be clearly established. Finally, an organization with credibility in the survivor community must be hired to do a thorough assessment of the organization and its culture, and their proposals for reform will need to be implemented.
Back to the CT article which explains how this whole thing unraveled co to the good work of Steve Baughman with whom I have been in communications.
The woman googled “Ravi Zacharias sex scandal” and found the blog RaviWatch, run by Steve Baughman, an atheist who had been tracking and reporting on Zacharias’s “fishy claims” since 2015. Baughman blogged on Zacharias’s false statements about academic credentials, the sexting allegations, and the subsequent lawsuit. When the woman read about what happened to Lori Anne Thompson, she recognized what had happened to that woman was what had happened to her.
The secret of Zacharias’s abuse started to unravel the day of his funeral in May 2020. One of the massage therapists he groped, masturbated in front of, and asked for sexually explicit images watched in shock as the apologist was honored and celebrated on a livestream. Famous people, including Vice President Mike Pence and Christian football star Tim Tebow, spoke of Zacharias in glowing terms.
Has no one come forward? she thought. No one?
As far as she could tell, this atheist blogger was the only one who cared that Zacharias had sexually abused people and gotten away with it. She reached out to Baughman and then eventually spoke to Christianity Today about Zacharias’s spas, the women who worked there, and the abuse that happened behind closed doors.
Isn’t it interesting that an outsider had to be the one to show concern to this woman? Perhaps this is the best description of the problem with celebrity Christianity in the US.S teve is a good guy who spent untold hours getting to the truth. I know. He wrote me on a number of occasions. I am grateful to him for exposing this sicko predator.
Final Thoughts
- I believe that it is likely that Zacharias molested more than his massage therapists. He spent 265 days in those apartments in Bangkok. Thailand is known for its sex tourism industry.
Did he just molest adult women or were there any other, well-concealed interactions with underage girls or boys? This possibility should be explored by the board of RZIM. - I find it hard to believe that no one in the RZIM organization had any idea or any of Zacharias’s unsavory activities. How stupid can they be? They had no problem with him traveling with and obtaining massage therapists.
- Did anyone ask Zacharias to get a regular orthopedic medical evaluation? I get the benefit of massage therapy but he needed so much of it that his therapists were traveling with him?? That would have raised red flags to me. I cannot believe that no one else had concerns.
- Whoops- yes a few did. He was confronted by an employee. I believe that the board knew about the concerns. I think there was a cover-up.
- How do they know all those pictures were of women who were of consenting age? Maybe they don’t and they are just saying it to make themselves feel better.
- The names of the RZIM board members should be released. I would love to see how much they were paid to do absolutely nothing.
- Every Board member and family member must step down. It seems to me that they didn’t do anything except encourage the money-maker.
- The organization must cease to exist. Get someone like John Lennox to figure out how to raise something from the ashes.
- I believe Zacharias’s material needs to be closely vetted by historians and theologians. I bet there are some discrepancies in his writings.
- Thank you, Steve Baughman. Too bad the rest of us didn’t try to find out about what you suspected much earlier.
- Lori Anne, I am so sorry for what you endured.
Finally, how come we Christians are so stupid when it comes to confronting the possible failings of our chosen celebrity Christians. Don’t we read out Bibles? Don’t we understand what David did to Bathsheba? He molested her and killed her husband. Why do we think that our leaders are immune from such actions?
Let”s get a bit darker…Have we ever considered that there are those who come into our churches and ministries because they know we are gullible? Did Zacharias really believe or did he use all of us to support his nefarious activities? It’s likely he played us. Sadly, this same scenario will happen again, sooner rather than later. I know. I’ve been blogging about it for 12 years. When will we decide to wake up and understand that “All have fallen?* Are we prepared to embrace this knowledge or pretend it’s not true so we can continue to live in a la-la land of our own making?
This is beyond disgusting..
Dos.
Which, if any, of the big names in Christianity *can* be trusted?
I have no words. He gets cancer and the last few months before his death he’s still getting pictures. This guy was unrepentant until the end. This is a lesson to everyone who is living a double life and thinks he/she can get away with it. Your sin will find you out.
I’m so sorry for all the victims. It is finally over. God bless you all.
Jeffrey Chalmers,
I smiled when I saw your comment on that 2015 post! As we would learn, the lack of a PhD was only the beginning of his problems. I think you commented on his doctorate woes.
I know I am a squeaky wheel, but in a “real” academic world, his academic lies would have gotten bounced as soon as they were exposed….
Also, the talks of RZ that I have seen, both in person, and on line, focused to much on his “credentials”, and subjects to try to establish his “credibility”… these are red flags in a academic world…. you should let your work, or your words on your subject, establish your credibility..
In fact, when I attended a academic lecture and the speaker is “overly” introduced, or the speaker goes on about “themselves”, I immediately start to question their credibility, or mental stability…. I can immediately think of a number of specific, clear examples in my world……
Afterburne,
Not many…. and I would never take anything they say as true until you independently verify it…
Well, I’m still sitting here and have come up with nothing. But, it’s late so I’ll head to bed with this question on my mind. In fact, it worries me since I have nothing on the tip of my tongue.
Can you think of any? The evangelical celebrity crowd has few Mother Theresa types.
Harper Collins has pulled Zacharias’ books. Christianity Today:
:HarperCollins Christian Publishing—which includes Zondervan and Thomas Nelson—had published more than 20 titles authored, coauthored, or edited by Zacharias over a 26-year span…”
““In September, when the most-recent sexual misconduct allegations against the late Ravi Zacharias surfaced, HarperCollins Christian Publishing immediately suspended all projects and shipments of his work,” said Casey Francis Harrell, vice president of corporate communications.
“Following the findings in the independent report, the company will immediately take all his publications out of print.”
Interestingly his 2nd last book was Seeing Jesus From the East co-authored with one of RZIM’s Abdu Murray.
Murray is mentioned in another article at CT:
Several people inside the ministry said vice president Abdu Murray suggested enlisting a “rough” ex-cop to track down the accusers and uncover information the ministry could use to discredit them.
1. “…how come we Christians are so stupid when it comes to confronting the possible failings of our chosen celebrity Christians?”
2. “Don’t we read our Bibles?”
1. Christians are in denial about pulpit predators because when they have witnesses (i.e., a Lori Anne Thompson), they do everything to destroy the witness (gaslighting, doubting, shading, lawsuits, NDAs, silencing, ghosting, canceling, slandering, etc.) while they prop up (with honor, $$$, applause) the pulpit predator. It’s that simple. How many pastors’ studies’ carpets have the true accounts of improprieties swept under the rug, in the room where the truth was aired but then buried? Dear Abby always said to contact your pastor, rabbi, or priest. (Bad advice, BTW.) These professionals were confided in & then they used their professional skills & position to destroy the witnesses.
2. Christians read & quote their Bibles aplenty, however, they fail to read the room.
Note: Churches/Christians everywhere recognize pastors (one of the 18 gifts of the HS to the church, Rom 12, 1 Cor 12, Eph 4) but where do they recognize the HS gift of discernment, which is on equal footing in the church?
Thinking about Dee’s questions in her last paragraph… In Matthew 10:16, Jesus says, “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.” Looking at the context of the chapter, this is Jesus talking to the 12 disciples, whom he was sending to preach to ISRAEL. Not to the Samaritans and Gentiles (a.k.a. “unbelivers / the world”), but to their fellow Jews.
I think it’s reasonable to draw a parallel to the need for individuals within churches to also be as shrewd (sharp or astute) as snakes and innocent (free from moral wrong) as doves when interacting in a community of Christians.
Those who say that not trusting your church leaders is like not trusting God… Have you not read the Gospels? Many of Christ’s harshest words were for church leaders of his day who should have known better but still did wrong. Who are we to think that our day would be any different?
Yes, there were exceptions then (Jairus, for example) as there are today. But being a Christian or a member of a church does not absolve us of the responsibility of using our God-given powers of observation to deduce who has shown themselves worthy of being followed and who has not.
So are we all done with the celebrity pastor now?
Using their “annoitment” to endorse each other, social causes and politicians. Ravi was in the top tier, he was untouchable. But now that we have seen behind the curtain will any of them be able to project gravitas? Or will we imagine them with their pants down around their ankles?
A good next step could be to hire this investigative firm to investigate the other leaders of RZIM: what did they know and when did they know it? Interviews with most employees; review THEIR smartphones; review their personal expenses; provide a hotline for others to report abuse by them. And investigate the unnamed and secretive members of the Board of RZIM. Also, major donors to RZIM. FULL TRANSPARENCY.
Anyone would be led to think Ortlund was a dominionist or something.
I repeat my comment from the previous post: Thank you, Dee, for all your hard work. The DIS-graced Evangelical world is making sure you never run out of material! I’m glad that you are on to these guys. They must surely know by now that you are not going to allow their behavior to be simply swept under the proverbial bargain-basement sale-priced carpet of cheap grace. I repeat, DIS-graced.
Raswhiting,
Exactly……
“rebrand and not repent”
unapologetic apologist
—
One hopes that the many victims’ stories are thoroughly documented. That would be fitting future for what remains of the US rump of RZIM.
dee,
Nope… I am thinking….
Could someone explain to me how any part of RZIM possibly continue to exist in any credible form of ministry or evangelism by simply rebranding themselves? After their eponymous founder, leader, speaker, author, etc. has been so profoundly exposed to be an academic fraud, manipulative liar, sexually immoral, and deliberately misappropriated donations and funds to finance his deviant behaviour, any rebranded organisation would have to try to deny or ignore their origins, which is counter to what the truth and honesty of the gospel message of Jesus Christ calls us to. Surely, it would be wiser to renounce any association with RZ, repent from any complicity, and shut up business… but I’m guessing that is the heart of it. Too many people want to carry on enriching themselves rather than start afresh with something entirely new and honest with no nefarious history and baggage.
“RZIM board supported Zacharias”
Until the potato got too hot to handle, Willowcreek board supported Hybels … Mars Hill board supported Driscoll … Harvest Chapel board supported MacDonald … Liberty board support Jerry Jr. … etc., etc., etc.
None of these folks were too big to fail, their ministries not that important to the Kingdom, their reputations not worth salvaging. They had already failed before God, diminished in importance to His work on earth, and caused His church to become a reproach and byword to a watching world, who now have another reason to proclaim “See, there’s nothing to it!.”
Did anyone on the RZIM board know about his transgressions? Sure they did! Now they hide behind shallow goodness which matches their shallow character in an effort to move the organizations forward and reach out to victims. Yeah they knew; they stand guilty before God for dragging the precious name of Christ through the street. They will now one by one silently slip away to serve on other boards.
When will this madness end? When spiritual men and women serve in trusted capacities in Christian ministries, rather than wealthy donors, celebrities, and idolaters of mere men. The Church of the Living God should be really sick of them all by now.
So, now there are allegations of “Mafia” like behavior at RZIM??
Q. What are you hoping to gain from all of this?
Well, I could give you some names today, but tomorrow I could be wrong. A spirit of deception is alive and well within the Body of Christ, deceiving even believers. Jesus warned us about this:
“False prophets are going to appear and will mislead, if it were possible, even God’s own people. Listen, I am warning you.” (Matthew 24:24)
John warned “Don’t trust every spirit, dear friends of mine, but test them to discover whether they come from God or not. For the world is full of false prophets.” (1 John 4:1)
Sadly, we simply cannot afford to trust every minister and ministry which claims to represent Christ. Pray, observe, look for red flags, and act.
Total depravity, for which cheap grace is no remedy.
Max,
This example, along with Liberty and “Jr”, are the poster boy for the corruption of the “Christian Industrial Complex”
And think, when I was a college student, there was allot of “pressure” for use to “ go into “ full time Christian service” …. i.e. feed the “Christian Industrial Complex”…. and they tried to make us feel like “lukewarm Christians”, or worse, for pursuing careers in the “secular, humanistic world”….
Well, none of my colleagues , as far as I know, run message parlors/prostitute/sex trafficking outfits… and, my colleagues do not walk around, at least in my presence, on campus talking about having sex with different co-eds…. and I am no Bible thumping prude..
Not as we ought.
https://lifewayresearch.com/2017/04/25/lifeway-research-americans-are-fond-of-the-bible-dont-actually-read-it/
Nah. The multitude of American churchgoers are so hooked on Hollywood celebrities, they want them in church too! Cults of personality have taken over and the charlatans know how to work the crowd. Celebrities are like Kings in the church world … “Give us a Celebrity!” the pew shouts. Entertainment is the theme of the day with its skinny jeans, big screens, and fog machines … and for the more civilized and distinguished amongst us, there is always someone like RZ to turn to. In the meantime, humble pastors in small churches labor for Christ in obscure places, loving and caring for the people of God entrusted to them. The last shall be first, and the first last.
Exactly. RZIM *was* RZ and his family, i.e., his enablers. If they manage in any way to rebrand and continue, this will be just another proof of the rot at the heart of the Ev. Industrial Complex.
They should wind down the “ministry,” sell the assets and give the money back to donors. Ideally, those on the board and in senior positions who knew or should have known about RZ’s double life should pay back at least 2020’s compensation – RZ’s shenanigans were hardly a secret any more at the time.
But it won’t happen. Should the IRS become interested what happened to all those tax-exempt dollars, they will cry persecution.
I’ll donate an idea for a new name for them here: Shameless Apologetic Ministries, or Sh.A.M, for short.
Gus,
🙂
But that’s the way of Those HEATHENS, not the Anointed of The LOOOOORD(TM)!
I am at the point where I don’t expect anything other from Professionsl CHRISTIANS(TM).
I am at the point where I’m surprised when a ManaGAWD DOESN’T act like Pill Cosby or Jeffrey Epsstein.
It’s become part of The Anointing.
This is the kind of nonsense that Scientology did, but now does a whole lot less of. I guess I need to find another gold standard of cults.
And we now have a CHRISTIAN Supreme Court (all genuflect towards Mar-a-Lago) which will always take the ManaGAWD’s side.
Fair Game Law LRH.
And we saw a Political version of this for the past four years.
With the Christians leading the Cheering and Worship.
Only for weaponized proof texts.
I see an IRS audit in the near future.
*cough* Hillsong *cough* and any number of megachurches here in the USA which make a point of trying to bring in celebrities. And if they don’t have the celebs, they’ll import in preachers and make church like a rock concert.
How can you repent when you’re GOD’s Speshul Pet Who Can Do No Wrong?
“BUT HE SAVED SO MANY SOULS(TM)!”
Souls (not people) are the currency of Heaven and MONEY TALKS.
But that’s ROMISH! NO POPERY!
Therein lies the problem. Too many church leaders in the Christian Industrial Complex “go into ministry” rather than being truly called into it. They choose ministry for personal gain, rather than to advance the cause of Christ. With a working knowledge of the Bible, a touch of charisma, a gift of gab, and a bag of gimmicks, you too could be a celebrity pastor – a jewel in the Christian Industrial Complex. Fortune and fame await those who fit the mold … a gullible pew is clamoring for more and more leaders like this. So God allows it to happen, but sends leanness to their souls.
And still collecting $$$ and honor from Christians as an amazing saint doing God’s work …
He was doing the devil’s work. Evil. Mockery of God to his last breath and right through his saintly funeral with more $$$ support, adulation, & words of honor for this tool (and the tools who propped up the monster) of the devil.
Jeffrey Chalmers,
In the Evangelical world there are a lot of apologetics ministries that are counterproductive or even, I must say it, fraudulent. I had listened to RZ’s program on and off over the years and bought two or three of his books. I had hoped that RZIM was a happy exception but when I heard about RZ inflating his qualifications I just figured that RZ was a more sophisticated talker than other pseudo-apologists (now I know it was even worse than that).
The apologetics bar is frankly very low – I am used to the usual apologetics ministries that are obsessed with “disproving” evolution, or they get into intricate end-times speculations, or they specialize in legalistic arguments about why it isn’t “biblical” for the wife to balance the family’s checkbook. There sure is room for people with true intellectual and moral authority and such people do exist, of course. But with all of the showmanship and bad arguments and scandals, I can’t really blame young people for thinking it is all a scam and they are better off “done” with it.
What did it take y’all, to throw the curtains off this wizard of oz global power, vice, $$$ monster operation? It took an INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION.
Any “legit” org that refuses an independent investigation should be labelled NOT legit. End of story. They hide evil, in one or more of the power, vice, $$$ realms.
Not just young people. Any people.
This is gravely unfortunate. Maybe this is what the NT indicates is a remnant.
In the USA, there is good & there are good people, true followers of our Lord. However, unfortunately, the legacy of the American church, with all of this religious freedom resulting scams & shams, may just rest in a legacy of evil rather than good. So unfortunate, so real.
… personal power, vice, grift.
When marriage to Margie & having a beautiful family is not enough, they go the way of a monster. In this case, global.
Everything was false about his guy: credentials, ethics, relationships, activities & work, “testimony”, theology (“God’s reward for service” he told his victims), back pain therapy.
I think that mindset is at the heart of the problem. Evangelicalism inherited from Puritanism the division between the spiritual and the secular, the idea that working as a pastor meant that you were serving God but if you were a baker or an accountant you weren’t serving God – at best you were merely providing a service for other people. This probably goes back to Gnosticism and the mind/body dichotomy in Greek thought.
Anyway, there is the idea of vocation – the idea of vocation is emphasized in Lutheranism and other traditions, where if you are serving people you are also serving God. Or really, you can’t serve God without also serving people. Being a pastor is still seen as a high vocation (“feed my sheep”) but so is being a baker (“feed my sheep”) – both are serving God because they are following Christ’s command to serve people.
This idea of vocation elevates all kinds of work and it also puts the office of pastor in a way that it is more grounded. I have long thought that if this idea of vocation caught on in the Evangelical world, it would help to mitigate a lot of problems.
This morning in “Weekly Meanderings,” Scot McKnight includes a piece on Zacharias by John Stackhouse. It’s worth your time reading, but I strongly disagree. I wrote the following comment:
On Ravi Zacharias, John Stackhouse writes: “Yet we know Martin Luther was capable of both great blessing and hair-raising cursing. John Calvin and John Knox made terrible decisions as leaders accompanied by invective harsh even by sixteenth-century standards.” I question putting Luther and Calvin in the same category with Zacharias. I have disparaged both of them for their words and actions, but they did believe what they were saying and said it openly. Many years of horrible sexual abuse, by Zacharias, with no apparent remorse or questioning by those who know him well, rises to a whole different realm in my mind. In fact, to those he was abusing, he defended his awful behavior with godtalk and making them pray with him. ABSOLUTELY DESPICABLE!
Ruth Tucker,
He should know better. As fas as I know Luther and Calvinis did not have a decades old habit of molesting women.,
Jacob,
Great comment.
AUCPA,
An IRS audit and the possibility of a boat load of lawsuits.
Gus,
Good comment.
Spent some time thinking last night, trying to fall asleep. I couldn’t think of one celebrity pastor who I could say I trust. Given what I do, I have come to the conclusion that abusers are hidden amongst us and use our faith as a means to an end. I am of the opinion that there are bodies of the abused dotting the entire evangelical landscape. I am not sure that one can be a celebrity and keep it together.
This is not only true for evagleiclas but for Hollywood, politicians, leaders of industry, etc. Maybe it’s time for us to follow those who look more like Jesus and the apotles as opposed to the Mark Driscolls of the world.
Gary Boswell,
I think there were shenanigans going on with the board. Why don’t we know their identities? What were they doing? Getting paid really well and eating extravagant dinners?
They still won’t release the names of the RZIM board. Why not? Something is up.
Jeffrey Chalmers,
See the above comment from me.
Ruth Tucker,
Thank you, Ruth. I do what I do because I have to do it. It’s one of those things I can’t shale.A mission for truth, perhaps?
Please be a squeaky wheel. you commented on RZ in 2015 You know before many that he was a fraud. Those who lie on the academic credentials are usually hiding more than just a fake doctorate.
Sòpwith,
Ummmmm, Sopy, why don’t you tell me? It should be quite obvious. I can think of about 10 reasons off the top of my head. I bet you can think of one.
I’ve been wondering the same thing. I assume, that if all this hadn’t come out, he had a lot of books and other material the organization could still manage. But now that what RZ has done has come to light and all the books have been pulled, I wonder if there’s any reason to continue RZIM?
I believe on that original post where the other Jeff commented, I responded that I have heard RZ call himself a doctor. And I have. I was at UGA and heard him debate a religion professor there.
In more recent years, didn’t he claim he taught at “Oxford”, but it turns out it was just some SBTS program called “Oxford”?
… with the theological argument that for his great service in the Kingdom, the trade-off was license for his global personal vice network. That was the molester’s argument with his victims.
So, the molester fans, also believe & argue that the trade-off for a great work in the Kingdom deserves a pass on their predatory evil?
No.
Predatory evil in the name of “this is my reward for being such a great servant of God” is a deal-breaker.
With any predator, including the strongmen of WW2, one sees that by God’s grace, there was some giftedness of doing something good. What that says is that the predator COULD HAVE DONE good in this world and NOT been a tool of evil. They chose to do evil under cover of their God given talents.
Evil outed is evil at its core. Evil. No good. God is good. They are evil at the core. This molester’s global network was neither an accident nor an overlookable. It’s a deal breaker. The man was a covert predator using God & theological argument to victimize, force sex with professional massage therapists, while claiming back pain. Is there anything more evil than that?
Away with all of his theological do-goodism, books, boards, et al. God has REAL apologists & theologians that can do this apologist work living godly lives.
Herod the Great built Caesarea as well as many other noble projects. He also ordered the Massacre of the Innocents to end the life of our Messiah. Shall we laud Herod as our hero who made a mistake? No, laud other builders; find/fund other projects. Judge Herod as evil.
Do you reckon any of the distinguished members of the board inquired “Hey, Ravi, what the heck are you doing in the spa business?!”
Do you reckon any of the board members went to the spa when traveling there for meetings?
There is much, much more to this story, IMO.
Reading TWW (posts & comments), as well as @RobDownenChron & a few others, reaching the same conclusion. Keep posting & commenting. Ever grateful for y’all. Spring blooms in a blizzard. A brook ripples through a desert. Lotus blossoms rise from a landfill.
“Survivor Care: Guidepost will provide confidential avenues for any survivors and witnesses, including any who have not yet come forward, to disclose information related to abuse or harassment at RZIM or by anyone employed by RZIM in the past.”
++++++++++++++++++++++
i find interesting bits of information in the shadows of the big attention-getting information.
reading this above, it seems to me they may have reason to suspect abuse/harrassment perpetrated by others employed by RZIM in the past.
.
.
sure doesn’t help things that RZIM is run with such secrecy. the secrecy they hide behind ironically draws the worst attention to them, putting them in the worst light of the spotlight focussed on them.
“all of the travel assistants we interviewed said that they never observed anything improper.”
+++++++++++++
well, Miller & Martin, does that mean you interviewed ‘all of the travel assistants’? or just the ones who would talk to you?
like,….(well, here’s the consequence of RZIM secrecy…everything becomes suspicious)…. I observe that Sanj Kalra, Ravi’s longtime companion, is nowhere to be found. incommunicado.
.
.
below, he describes how he first met Ravi, and was asked to be his companion. Ravi sought him out. either shades of how he sought out vulnerable women, or in living color.
https://web.archive.org/web/20201226050415/https:/www.rzim.org/listen/ask-away/stories-from-the-road-rzims-sanj-kalra-reminisces-on-his-friendship-with-ravi-zacharias
i listened to the recording of this on their website in early January, amazed at what i heard
–especially the part where someone named Bob Bevington said “you don’t say ‘no’ to Ravi”.
(Bob Bevington of Christ Community Chapel in Hudson Ohio is a friend of Tom Randall of Justice For Sankey scandal)
I tweeted about it. A few hours later the recording was gone from RZIM website.
.
.
So, wrapping this up, where is Sanj Kalra?
Was he amongst the travel companions Miller & Martin interviewed?
Most American churches are easy targets for abusers. The “family of God” is a trusting bunch and perverts take advantage of that. Trust should be a strength … but when someone’s weakness overcomes your strength, the abuser owns you. The church needs to pray for a new measure of discernment, or at least look up and listen … the enemy has come in the backdoor … the flags are usually there and can be detected by close observation.
In the church I was part of in college, there was, at least in my mind, a definite hierarchy of who was “most spiritual”. From the bottom up: those who converted people, those who lead a group Bible study, those who went into full-time ministry, and those who went on mission teams (either to plant new churches in the US or overseas.)
I occasionally sing on our church praise team these days, and when our worship leader talked about our role in leading the congregation in singing and worship, I thought, this sounds like a great deal of responsibility and I’d better take it seriously. Part of me loves the idea of “being a leader” . . . but “leadership” also involves, in part, being trustworthy and being willing to do the things you ask others to do as well.
It seems that many who we revere as “leaders” are willing to enjoy the role without taking up the mantle of responsibility.
Not if their income and prestige position in Ravi’s Inner Ring depended on NOT asking questions (Loyalty, Loyalty, Loyalty)…
Enjoying the Perks of their Position as Mighty MenaGAWD, shieldbearers of the Anointed Ravi Z.
“Full Time Ministry” as in PRIESTHOOD?
(Or is that title too Romish?)
Remember the Heresy of Clericalism: Only Clergy (Priests, Monks, Nuns, Those In Full-TIme Ministry) matter before God; the Laity (all the rest of us) can go to hell.
And during my time in-county, “Those Who Converted People” were at the top of God’s Favorites List. “How Many Souls Did YOU Save?????” was what determined your position in Heaven as well as the preferred way of Spiritual One-Upmanship.
Ever wondered how much “Ministry” is just one big game of “More Christian Than Thou” One-Upmanship?
NO. SKUBALON.
If you know the right buzzwords and tribal recognition markers, Christians are the easiest of Easy Marks. Whether you’re abusing them for money, sex, ego-trip, or all of the above.
Where Easy Prey concentrates, the Predators will Swarm.
The Heresy of Clericalism, except we call them “Full Time Christian Service” instead of “Priests, Monks, and Nuns” like those Romish Papists over there.
elastigirl,
My thoughts as well….. If the lawyers was able to find what did, in a relatively short time with only partial cooperation, my bet there is much, much more….. RZ has been lying about his credentials for over 3 decades…. maybe 4…… my bet, there is all sorts of other “stuff” going back that far…
And, RZ was not the only “campus” speaker/debater/evangelist that did not “smell” quite right to me….. in fact, campus ministries would have loved for me to be more supportive, and endorsing/supporting their ministries for over 33 years…. but, I never “trusted” them… I am now SO THANKFUL I acted on my instincts…. I would be having real emotional/conscience issues had I been a “soldier for the Lord” and promoted this fraudsters..
Tina,
Yup…
Before he was battling cancer, blogger J Michael Jones (formerly Christian Monist) came to that exact same conclusion, tracing it back not just to “mind/body dichotomy in Greek thought” but to Plato’s dichotomy between Ideal Archetype and Real-World derivative Ectype. His one non-fiction book “Butterflies in the Belfry, Serpents in the Cellar” revolves around and traces this dichotomy through history, ending in his own personal experiences in-country. His current blog at https://jmichaeljoneswriter.com/blog/ focuses primarily on his writing, but still makes journeys into the effect of this “Platonic Dualism” dichotomy.
I think Sopy just likes being Mysterious and Cryptic.
There was another commenter (can’t remember the blog) called “A Amos Love” who was just the same — Mystery Crypticism for the sake of Mystery Crypticism.
“Real mystics don’t hide mysteries, they reveal them. They set a thing up in broad daylight, and when you’ve seen it it’s still a mystery. But the mystagogues hide a thing in darkness and secrecy, and when you find it, it’s a platitude.”
― G. K. Chesterton, “The Blast of the Book” (Father Brown Mystery)
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Correction: “The Purple Wig” or “The Dagger with Wings”, Father Brown Mystery
Amen. I have always been of the persuasion that ANY type of (legitimate) work, done with good attitude and to the best of one’s ability, is glorifying to God in and of itself.
I remember touring a well-known Christian college with our oldest son; they promoted that they respected all training and vocations, not just ‘Christian’ work, yet they had a special wall dedicated to graduates who had spent at least 3 years on the ‘mission’ field.
Thanks for the info! I will check out his ideas.
Yes … which is a failure of the first requirement of a leader. Accountability and responsibility always float up. Yet, too many church “leaders” avoid these demands … thus, they are not leaders; they are users.
Tina,
Tina: It seems that many who we revere as “leaders” are willing to enjoy the role without taking up the mantle of responsibility.
Max,
“…too many church “leaders” avoid these demands”
++++++++++++++++++++++
well, perhaps it comes down to feeling the weight of that mysterious “spiritual burden” they carry. the accessory to the pastor’s hat.
(they both must have the same orange monkey tags. so easy even a 6-year-old can put together ensembles to wear) (anyone else remember Garanimals?)
Such a heavy burden they carry at all times (with all the substance of the emperors new clothes). makes lounging at coffee shops such hard work.
And when that someone is too big, too celebrated, too mob-popular. too big-name, too servant-leader, too accomplished, too useful, too God-appointed & God-anointed, or too family-legacy to fail (call to accountability), it’s a tyranny of predatory evil.
… masking over or camouflaging evil is just evil.
Dunno about that dee.
Luther sided with the brutal oppression of the German aristocracy toward the peasantry.
Peasant survivors of the revolt were beheaded, drawn and quartered, you name it, they were products of their times.
We all know how Calvin dealt with those who disagreed with his interpretation of the Bible, Servetus is but one example.
So all in all, I’m not convinced that the antics of a present-day horndog eclipse the evil of the 16th century reformers.
What is on trial here, error or truth?
hmmm…
Is this blog serving the needs of those injured by injustice? RZ apparently, a false shepherd , misused the truth, and misled millions. Yet Jesus still says, come unto me all those who are heavy laden and I shall give you rest. To do so today, will not bring disappointed.
ATB
Sòpy
Jeffrey Chalmers,
YFC – then YWAM – then WYD –
Apartheid or caste system.
“Gilman told CT he was deeply concerned the ministry he loved would choose to rebrand but not repent.“
Or repay / reappropriate that which was deceitfully used for purposes other than the ministerial ones under which it was solicited.
Y’think? Yessiree Bob. “Were”? Still are until they come clean. Full Zacchaeus transparency & compensation, aka Luke/Acts 3.8 required. Expectation? Does this ever happen? Well, Saul became Paul. Nowadays, where does this happen? Do tell.
“Why do we think that our leaders are immune from such actions?“
How many “marks” or certain churches include accountability, transparency, and oversight that extends to the decision makers (and in a timely manner)? How many branches of the industrial complex have the winsomely sheared sheep as their marks for personal enrichment above all else?
And how many of these churches are educating their congregation – – especially those with a repentant mindset and yearning for direction – – about the reality of grievous wolves who will not spare the flock for the hirelings who do not care about them? Marks of honest churches would include the servant mindset spoken of in the gospel as well as the aforementioned checks and balances.
NYT/Ruth Graham piece: “Born in Chennai, India, and boasting impressive academic credentials, he had a reputation among many evangelicals as a worldly and winsome intellectual.“
Maybe they’ll get to the “impressive academic credentials“ issue when the immediate prairie fire dies down
“Did anyone ask Zacharias to get a regular orthopedic medical evaluation? I get the benefit of massage therapy but he needed so much of it that his therapists were traveling with him?? That would have raised red flags to me. I cannot believe that no one else had concerns.“
The traditional “she is my secretary / personal assistant“ morphing into “she’s my traveling massage therapist for whom international plane fare, lodgings, and accommodation funding is needed” is no big deal, something everybody does as just a travel expense, right?
“Have we ever considered that there are those who come into our churches and ministries because they know we are gullible?“
Well…
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2021/02/10/rc-sproul-jr-is-back-in-the-pulpit-and-joins-the-disgraced-pastorscome-back-conga-line-disaster-is-lurking/#comments
How many times has the fall of those in authority covered here been followed by “oops; mistakes were made; we good?” along with proof-texts about forgiveness, grace, and “restoration“? How many concede unworthiness to be in positions of compensated authority going forward and either go into the private sector (after making reparations when financial malfeasance has been an issue) or into servant ministry without the trappings of being well-funded unmuzzled oxen?
And how many do anything but start their own “ministry / the local church-storehouse“ and set themselves — and often their family — at the top of the food chain once again? How much easier is it to pivot to a ministry of “grace” for the “broken”, complete with a “vision“ anytime they want it that redounds to financial benefit? And where are those in the institutional Christian world prioritizing calling that out?
I found this video presentation helpful., Ravi Zacharias Investigation results says, Guilty -Christian Daily News-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pm1lLIZ4Zts
Ava Aaronson,
Yep, some culture needs to be canceled!
With that line, I immediately thought of the New Calvinist church planters in my area who hang out together tweeting their lives away at the local coffee shop. They are crazy busy, you know, and much too important to pray with sick folks in hospitals, check on members in nursing homes, visit church member homes, evangelize on the street, do funerals, etc. And after tweeting and retweeting for hours, they must get their skinny jeans, big screens, and fog machines ready for next Sunday! God is not in one ounce of it.
Here is an old post but has a lot of truth:
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/rolltodisbelieve/2020/12/29/how-ravi-zacharias-got-away-with-sex-abuse-for-years/?fbclid=IwAR23_4FRbptDkWF1O9_TYh88X3aH_2JaA02ffnrirpxRlQwnWNBWh1zUQck
If nothing else Ravi pulled off a con that few others could ever do.
I managed to record the entire podcast of the Sanj Kalra interview. Searching the RZIM website yesterday I found they have purged nearly everything on him. No bio, nothing. But, yeah, not sure if Sanj was fired, resigned, or just went into hiding till things cool down. He traveled 250 days a year for 6 years with Ravi, so he has to know lots of stuff. Both he and his wife were on the payroll of RZIM.
Todd Wilhelm,
“I managed to record the entire podcast of the Sanj Kalra interview”
+++++++++++
did you make mental note of the the awe in their voices (Sanj’s and Vince Vitale’s) as they talked about Ravi? the worshipful, awe-inspired quality?
listening to it was quite extraordinary, head-shakingly weird,..i’m sure there are other words i could use.
elastigirl,
Sigh…..
“The names of the RZIM board members should be released.”
If this is an anonymous board, how do we even know that there are board members? Perhaps there was no oversight beyond family members and others who sat in board capacities only on paper. If there actually were board members, their names should be released by RZIM so that other ministries don’t make the mistake of retaining them after demonstrating incompetence in regard to managing RZ.
You and me both elastigirl, I could even let fly with an f-bomb when it comes to any of these faith grifters, they anger me that much.
There’s a man who should answer questions.
On another note, why does Lori Anne Thompson have to abide by an NDA when RZ lied, lied, and lied some more!?
Muff Potter,
yeah… i think i’ll record carol the waitress on my phone and hit play when needed. i’ll dub in ‘evangelical hypocrite’ over ‘hmo’ in my own voice for a nice touch.
maybe i’ll make it my ringtone.
Todd Wilhelm,
We should repost that interview
“Full Time Ministry” as in PRIESTHOOD?
(Or is that title too Romish?)
Remember the Heresy of Clericalism: Only Clergy (Priests, Monks, Nuns, Those In Full-TIme Ministry) matter before God; the Laity (all the rest of us) can go to hell.
Not quite, HUG. How can the laity send their tithes and offerings when they’re in hell? You know plenty of clergy and ministry leaders demand their followers contribute the funds to subsidize them, even to the point of expecting widows living on Social Security to send in their tithes and offerings.
(Sorry, but I encountered technical difficulties with using the “quote selected text” function.)
Has anyone been looking at the likelihood of sex trafficking? “Unlicensed and untrained massage therapists” sounds very much like “Ravi trafficked his personal sex slaves through ‘Touch of Hope.'”
Does anyone think it is possible for donors to RZIM get their money back?
“Thirty pieces of silver” explains a lot what passes in the big evangelical world.He suffered directly from them. He denounces that the Kern Foundation is behind many big churches. Watch pair has, somewhere, but I cannot find it anymore, that Madame Blavatski had said in the 19th century that their people (theosophy) would be at the head of all the important post in the church! And it appears that it is so. Ravi said that A donor offered, him 50.000 dollars to start his work!
Max,
Limited atonement.
JDV,
“Impressive boasting” is that?
I foun this podcast helpful,
Rachael Denhollander on Church Abuse
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_J4uzDrORs
The more I think about this burning, dumpster fire, the more I wonder if the FBI should be involved? If any of the girls that that the “worked” at the “ message parlor” were undocumented, would that not count as sex trafficking?? And, the RZIM and that “preacher” that dedicated it be co-conspiracers? How many times have we been told that “ignorance” does not “get you off the hook” with respect to braking laws??
Come to think of it, if RZ in fact exchanged sex for “financially helping the poor girls”, as the law firm’s report claims, and even if the girls were “legal aliens”, it does still seem to be sex trafficking??
Michael in UK,
Only cheap grace has limited atonement. The Grace of Christ is unlimited … ALL may freely come and drink of living water.
All this started very early – brother Ramesh following Ravi’s advice for his young girlfriend to have an abortion many years ago.
I believe Ravi Zachariah saw an opportunity for enriching himself iand feeding his narcissistic need for fame and significance n the Christian arena. I question the validity of his Christian faith and suspect that he used Christianity as a vehicle for his ambitions, while at the same time it afforded him the financial means and travel opportunities to indulge his predatory ambitions. By bullying and lying and exploiting the nativity of Christians he managed to get away with it – on this earth. There will be a reckoning.
Meanwhile so glad Rachel Denhollander will come to the aid of the victims, who have suffered untold harm, physically, emotionally and spiritually. Praying that the whole ministry comes to a quick end so that the Gospel is not further blackened and the Name of Christ besmirched.
I suspect many donors are now asking themselves “Which Kingdom was I sowing into for all these years? Christ’s or Ravi’s?”
Some people look at these situations and convince themselves that they were giving for the right reason. I had a conversation with a fellow in my community who found himself in a church takeover when SBC’s New Calvinist wave swept through our area. He didn’t agree with the change in belief and practices the young pastor and his team of young “elders” brought with them, but told me he would continue to go and give to the church he had been a member of for years. He said he was giving to the ministry with the right heart and “if the new boys aren’t using my money right, they will be responsible before God”. My response to him was that God expected him to be a good steward of his finances and if he knew he was giving to a work that advanced another gospel than the Gospel he knew, God would hold him personally accountable for throwing his seed on rocky ground, not the new boys. He eventually decided to keep his affiliation with the church (hoping the New Calvinists would go away) until they excommunicated him for starting to attend another church. “His” church eventually split and the new reformers harvested the church building and its resources for their movement, which long-standing non-Calvinist members had paid for. There’s a lot of sad things going on in the American church that don’t get the publicity RZ did … but, of course, his was a much more scandalous sin.
Max,
One thing that life has taught me is that “most people” do not want to “rock the boat”, and even try to distance themselves from people that stand up and “blow the whistle”…. this is how depraved people are able to take over… they know most people will “roll” rather than “stand up” to “bad behavior”…. also, depraved people know that if they are the loudest, they can keep yelling their lies, and quite often the lies become accepted fact…..
Mr. John Massage aka RaviEpstein, same MO, but wearing a Christian apologist garb with fake PhD creds & with his board running a nonprofit org $upported by Christian donor$. RaviEpstein’s $upporter$ funded vice. Evil.
Guess I was created a little differently. I’ve been accused as having a “critical spirit” and “too judgmental” when challenging aberrant ministers and ministries.
When I was a child, I started reading my Bible during the Christmas season. I discovered that Scripture says that Jesus was two years old living in a house when the 3 wise men found him, rather than in a manger crib. I then discovered Scripture does not teach that there were 3 wise men, but a group bearing three types of gifts. I was pretty upset about this deviation from the Christmas story! I had already discovered in my Scripture reading that Noah didn’t take two of every animal on the Ark … he took 7 pairs of “clean” animals and only 1 pair of “unclean” animals. I got to the point where I declared in my spirit “Well, if they’ve lied to me about this, what else have they lied to me about?!” That launched a lifetime of testing everything I was taught in church against the truth of Scripture. After 70+ years of doing that, I’ve found a lot of things the pulpit has lied to me about … so I occasionally “blow the whistle.”
dee,
The IRS could go from a minimum of paying excise tax on transactions for the personal benefit of RZ to revoking tax exempt status. It will be the call of the IRS.
Allison Kyff,
“Does anyone think it is possible for donors to RZIM get their money back?”
+++++++++++++++
https://www.nj.com/politics/2013/08/nj_charities_must_return_donations_if_money_is_not_used_as_intended_by_donor_appeals_court_rules.html
“We believe that responsible charities will welcome this decision because it will assure prospective donors that the expressed conditions of their gift will be legally enforceable,” said Judge Jose Fuentes
.
.
at the very least, an uprising of people publicly demanding their donations to RZIM be returned would be a devastatingly powerful statement.
wish i had chosen law as a career path. i could have been a damn fine prosecutor. voof
Max,
Not so much “lied to you” as “accreted folk beliefs”.
Like how the Christian afterlife went from Resurrection of the Body in a New (debugged) Cosmos to floating around with halos/harps/Peter Pan nightgowns in Fluffy Cloud Heaven. (Forever incorporeal, just like Shades in Hades.)
P.S. Speaking of Fluffy Cloud Heaven, has anyone here heard of “Captain Stormfield’s Visit to Heaven”? Mark Twain’s last story, where he points out all the holes in the concept, circa 1907? The original, not the claymation video version?
I looked around and actually found a copy online: https://americanliterature.com/author/mark-twain/short-story/captain-stormfields-visit-to-heaven
Type example of both:
Germany, 1933-1945.
“Effective Propaganda consists of Simplification and Repetition.”
“A lie, repeated often enough, becomes TRUTH.”
And all the “Good Germans” who went along and “KNEW NOTHINK! NOTHINK!”
If they were Undocumented, you could keep them in line with the threat of La Migra.
Happens all the time.
RANK HATH IT’S PRIVILEGES.
As of now, He Never Existed, Comrades.
doubleplusungood ref doubleplusunperson.
memhole.
As regular readers of TWW can tell, this floating, burning, dumpster fire of RZ is really “getting to me”..
As was discussed above, there is a very strong Gnosticism in Evangelicalism/Fundamentalism… ranging from all mankind knowledge will “burn”, and all of that “secular humanist science” is against G%d/Christianity (example of homes school presentation putting “scientist” on stage against “Godly defenders of the faith) to the concept that all we do on this earth will “burn”, so you should put your effort into the “Kingdom” and “save souls”. I have experienced all of this, and “the system” would have LOVED for me to have been “all in” for the “VERITAS FORUM”, USING my academic credentials to “save souls for the kingdom” AND, good old RZ was part of the VERITAS FORUM at my institution years ago… so, I came close to getting “sucked into” this floating, burning dumpster fire… I do not how I could “live with myself” if I got heavily involved, knowing that I endorsed this PERVERT…. as I have said before, something did not “smell right” about it all back in 1992, and I am so THANKFUL I went with my gut and stayed away…. I might add, my wife and I got invited by “big wigs” to a party/reception, to contribute $$$ as well…. they have it down well…..
On their knees beholding their Real LORD and God?
Like Trashcan Man before The Walkin’ Dude?
Puts him in the Top Ten of The Jesus Racket (TM).
‘You Are One Step Away from Complete and Total Insanity’
https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/you-are-one-step-away-from-complete
===========
Outrageous treatment of Ruth Malhotra, an RZIM staffer on the crisis team responding to the Lori Ann Thompson case.
===========
“As these details became known within RZIM, discontent grew. Malhotra and Gifford consistently fielded questions for which they had no good responses. Compounding the challenge, Zacharias had been caught exaggerating his academic credentials. The public-facing members of the team were facing a credibility crisis, and they wanted answers. Yet as Malhotra and others probed for more information, they faced withering internal resistance.
In a 26-page letter Malhotra wrote and delivered to the chairman of RZIM early last week, she reflected back at her long ordeal at RZIM and described feeling “systematically marginalized, maligned, and misrepresented to others by key members of senior leadership” during her time on the Thompson task force.
According to Malhotra and at least one other person present at the task force meetings, RZIM president Michael Ramsden objected to her notetaking. RZIM general counsel Abdu Murray said her lingering questions meant that she had moved from being “skeptical to being cynical.”
When Malhotra continued to ask questions as she learned more about the gaping holes in the original story, Ramsden allegedly called her “tired and emotional” and suggested to the group that “she can’t handle” the stress and pressure of responding to the allegations.
Senior leaders would tell Malhotra and others that they should believe Zacharias because the senior leaders believed Zacharias. As one senior leader allegedly told the task force, “You just don’t know Ravi as well as I know him. If you had spent as much time with him as I have, you wouldn’t have these concerns.”
Here is a telling comment, from the above-linked article, by Sanj Kalra. You will recall that Sanj Kalra was Ravi Zacharias’ traveling companion. By his own words he traveled with Ravi for 6 years, 250 days per year.
“When Malhotra continued to press for answers she was told to “do the Matthew 18 thing” (referring to a scripture that admonishes believers to first confront a fellow believer personally before addressing their sin with others). At one point RZIM senior vice president Sanj Kalra pressed Ruth with a question, “Whose side are you on?” He allegedly accused her of “plotting to bring the ministry down.”
Muff Potter,
One also needs to point out that the distinction between church and state was much less defined or even understood back then as it is today. This is still in that Era.
RZ fans $upport their own Epstein. Fact: Massage Johns Ravi & Epstein: their fans own this.
When HS-gifted pastoring, teaching, admin, & $upporting/giving stand on level ground with HS-gifted discernment (Rom 12, 1 Cor 12, Eph 4) as the Body of Christ is so described in Scripture, there will be real Church.
Ananias and Sapphira.
Discernment: equal footing, rank, voice, action, power, support, recognition, acknowledgement, authority as HS gifted.
Moreover for all $upporters & church: Test the spirits, as in LISTEN TO & vet witnesses. “I will listen and believe you if someone is threatening you,” termed Lauren’s Promise, after predator victim/witness Lauren was ignored and destroyed in Salt Lake City.
Church: STOP IGNORING/SILENCING WITNESSES, particularly women & children who witness male leader predation. VET – as in an Independent Investigation.
In this RZ case, it took an INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION to finally get to the truth. Jesus, truth. End the predatory masking & charade. Truth.
I have seen a male denominational official traveling with a younger man. The assistant kept him on schedule and drove him from one appointment to another. He also witnessed everything the official did.
That particular denominational official retired without a whiff of scandal or celebrity. I still think he was just a hard-working servant of God, if only because people gave him a hard time for his commitment to reconciliation.
However, it struck me then and today that a corrupt assistant would come in handy for a traveling abuser.
Friend,
Yep, & the question is still to be asked as to why RZ could not have had a male massage therapist travelling with him if his need was so great…I think a good hard look at those closest to him is in order.
From your link, the article on Patheos, an interesting summary.
“How RZ Got Away With It” in 3 EZ steps:
1. “Evangelicals protect their own.”
[Church/mini$try fan club created by CELEBRATED $NAKE OIL CHARMING LEADER$, rah rah loyalty replacing Jesus following]
2. Monster$ Con Church: “It’s painfully easy for predator$ to trick evangelicals into thinking they’re $incere and following the rules.”
[$hallow church club. EZ member$hip, ea$ier “leader$hip”. $nake Oil Charm + FOLLOWER$. FOLLOW THE LEADER, not Jesus, not the Bible]
3. “Worst of all: Predator$ who can fake evangelical $incerity well will go much further up the ladder of power [and $$$ and w/acce$$ or licen$e to vice such as ma$$age-Johning] — and faster — than Christians who try their best to realistically and authentically live out their faith.”
[$hort game NOT long haul. Lie$ take the elevator, truth takes the stairs & gets there eventually. $nake Oil Charm + followers QUICK $ALE. $hort cut.]
Summary: cheap, fa$t fix, $hallow, fake, all-about-image, lying, fan club, celebrity-focu$ed, bandwagon, bullying, in denial, PR, marketing, name-it-claim-it, we’re $pecial, we’ve got this, hierarchical w/patriarchy as cover, $trongmen, fawning/weak women = Evangelicals.
Hebrews 11 Hall of Faith Saints tough choices w/real tough consequences is completely lost on the Evangelical “church”:
1. $NAKE OIL CHARMER LEADER$, who gather …
2. $HALLOW FOLLOWER$ who embrace fake leader$hip, for their …
3. FA$T TRACK $ainthood, $HORT CUT nonbiblical “$alvation” IOW Cheap grace.
None of this follows the Jesus follower church models in the NT.
If he were Ted Haggard, not a solution.
Notably, even with his male assistant vying for RZ 24/7, RZ kept his cover.
The stealth nature of his crimes w/cover is monumental, staggering.
This must be why discernment is a HS gift to the Church in the NT. God sets up the checks & balances, but everything about Church is voluntary. God never engages in arm-twisting; God is in no way a mob boss.
And CHRISTIANS all KNOW “WHO’d be behind ‘Bringing the Ministry DOWN’, don’t We? HMMMMMM?”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_mePjkQW_c
Wondering Eagle is also covering the RaviZ Scandal. Here’s an excerpt I haven’t heard anywhere else:
Bangkok, Thailand?
AKA “Bang Cock”, Number-One Sex Tourism Destination in the entire world?
RaviZ’s apartment there sounds a lot like Aliester Crowley’s “Abbey of Thelema” minus the occult angle…
In keeping with Dee question, why should we ever trust ANYTHING out of the mouths of evangelicals/fundamentalist?? As the above post are showing, there was a clear intent to keep under raps the PERVERT RZ…..
I have observed “shady” practices by”campus ministries”..for decades..
. how many more of their “ leading campus apologist” are secret perverts?? They CLEARLY are NOT vetting them like we in the academic world do….
Steve240,
Thanks again, Steve240, for this link.
Cuts to the chase:
1-Fake Leader e$tabli$hed (“appealing” human leader hooks groupies NOT JC followers)
2-Groupies Fake Fellowship (joiner$’ club NOT obedience to JC as NT remnant)
3-Fake Discipleship (image/$ucce$$ Look NOT Hebrews 11 or James: faith lived, tested, proven, evidenced, like JC modeled)
Speaking of …
Xian music has been covering for adultery (legal but not Xian) & whatever, for decades.
Xian publishing, too?
Traveling preachers & conference speakers? Bigger name, greater breach?
Xian “counseling”?
Xian financial management?
Missions? Is it Dee Ann Miller who docs the missionary pervert scene?
Denom hierarchy?
“Talent” surpasses integrity, like God needs predators & perverts, for the Gospel, to do God’s bidding?
Legal? Ethical? Criminal? Shades of integrity or lack thereof … on the Evangelical spectrum.
Todd Wilhelm,
From the article you link: At RZ’s passing …
“press secretary Kayleigh McEnany broke down describing Ravi’s impact on her life.”
Obviously not an impact of morality from RZ to this woman. However, her lifestyle was perfectly legal (with no RZ-like predation it seems). On record she was notably promiscuous dating high profiles in Media & sports industries, at least before her current marriage. One of her exes was interviewed. He admittedly is not a Christian and he was surprised at what they did nightly while then attending church with her family. Her “testimony” surprised him. Seemed like a disconnect to him. Again, definitely a legally chosen lifestyle, but not exactly a positive Christian influence in that arena by either RZ or this woman with regard to their testimonies.
The sham Xian leader’s impact is shallow, at best, followers, it would seem.
Talk the talk … but the walk, not so much.
Does anyone believe at this point that RZ really had a back problem?!
[off topic]
Tom Ascol (Founders) has raised $700K+ since yesterday for Voddie Baucham (heart condition):
https://twitter.com/tomascol/status/1360586168916705281
A detailed report from a new source, a former staff member at RZIM, who was belittled for asking questions and raising concerns several years ago.
https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/you-are-one-step-away-from-complete?fbclid=IwAR0zYfZGvT7j7PknTmKaeTQ4QPzF6BkfEsg435-cSV9wbbahfkBBSqr2YQ0
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Definitely top ten… in fact, in my book, top 3…. given his supposed “intellectual” reputation, which many of us, for many years, has said was a fraud, he might be biggest one… I can understand a “falling” from relationship failure, in others words a good old fashion one, but this is now sex trafficking, and as discussed above, even nearing his death, at 74, he still could not “give it up”??? that is just sick..
Yes, I believe it was true. Steve Baughman, the Friendly Banjo Atheist, had dinner with him and said he was clearly in pain from his back. Also, the recently released investigative report states:
“We accept as true that Mr. Zacharias had significant and at times debilitating lower back pain and that he found relief from massage therapy treatments at the hands of trained professionals.
Indeed, several of the therapists we interviewed reported a normal therapist-client relationship with him and said that he was always professional.”
That said, I believe Ravi’s back pain also provided him with cover for having frequent “massages.”
This, also from the report:
“In addition to finding alone time when he travelled with others, Mr. Zacharias travelled alone to Bangkok and other parts of Southeast Asia for substantial periods of time. RZIM staff described these as writing trips where he would work on his latest book. On such trips, he would stay for days and sometimes weeks alone. According to a text message to a Thai masseuse in February 2016, he spent his days writing and his nights receiving massage treatments. All of the massage therapists we interviewed now live in the United States, and we have little insight into whether Mr. Zacharias engaged in inappropriate massage behavior when in Asia.”
Indeed you would’ve.
If I had become a good defense attorney, I’d hate like hell to have to face you in a court room, even with a well crafted and airtight brief.
One thing people need to realize is that wolves like Ravi usually know how to pick their victims. They don’t victimize all people so isn’t surprising to read an account to where Ravi was reportedly having a normal therapist-client relationship with some of the therapists he sees. It wouldn’t surprise me if having normal relations with some was part of Ravi’s smoke screen so he can have people report just how professional he was.
Too many people are fooled say when an alleged child molester doesn’t go after your child and thus you assume this alleged molester is that way with all children.
If this was truly just for back treatments why didn’t Ravi ever see any male therapists? Couldn’t a male therapist have done just as good a job as the female therapists he saw?
“Christian ministries are populated by leadership teams who derive not just their paychecks but also their own public reputations from their affiliation with the famous founder. They’re admired in part because the founder is admired. They have influence in part because the founder has influence. When the founder fails, they lose more than a paycheck. There is powerful personal incentive to circle the wagons and to defend the ministry, even when that defense destroys lives.”
From
Sadly we see this “circle the wagons” a lot unfortunately in many “Christian” groups when valid issues are raised.
Pain. Common human experience.
Monsters like RZ. Not common, and as Chalmers states: “beyond disgusting”.
But it only takes one monster to groom a global enabling community & use them to operate as cover for his stealth network of predation. His groomed enabling mob further slaughter his victims, silencing them.
The enabling mob is the other monster in this saga, terrorizing witnesses. Equally “beyond disgusting”. The bigger problem.
Good point.
@RuthDHutchins has snapshots of RZIM Board members on twitter. Here are some links she put up. She tracks & notes this Board doesn’t change much which is not best practice.
2016
https://web.archive.org/web/20160315001640/http://rzim.org/about/international-board-of-directors
2017 https://web.archive.org/web/20170216100205/https://rzim.org/about/international-board-of-directors/
Afterburne,
“Which, if any, of the big names in Christianity *can* be trusted?”
+++++++++++++++++++
it sort of reminds me of the days when i came home for lunch from work post college, and my roommate was watching “All My Children” (the soap opera).
I sort of watched, was sort of mildly interested to see how Erika’s (Susan Lucci) current relationship was going. then I stopped coming home for lunch.
did i miss the soap opera and its characters?
‘tcha, no. haven’t thought about them since. well, til tonight, and how utterly unmemorable they are.
who needs these so-called big names? no one. as unmemorable as Erika’s beau from circa 1994.
Steve240,
Why didn’t he take some pills and cut back on his non-duties?
As for smoke screens, once I “signalled” I was not “material”, a colourful movement I knew liked having me around as plausible cover.
As for “missions” to uninhabited islands and beyond, one of my colourful movements (funny how I collect those) liked to showcase themselves to guest writers and church officials and discover their night time foibles.
Ezekias responded to Isaiah
6 Behold, the days come, that all that is in thine house, and that which thy fathers have laid up in store until this day, shall be carried to Babylon: nothing shall be left, saith the Lord.
7 And of thy sons that shall issue from thee, which thou shalt beget, shall they take away; and they shall be eunuchs in the palace of the king of Babylon.
8 Then said Hezekiah to Isaiah, Good is the word of the Lord which thou hast spoken. He said moreover,
For there shall be peace and truth in my days.
Ravi probably knew very well that all of this would or could come to light but worked very hard to have “peace” while living. Very selfish person
Ava Aaronson,
This link does not work……
How ironic that this saga does not have a happy ending. Very sad indeed.
Q. What positive solutions are necessary going forward?
The more I sit and smolder on this latest, burning, floating dumpster fire, the more I think, as was stated above, that the “Christian Industrial Complex” owns this as much as RZ does… RZ was both a grifter as well as a pawn in the larger multi-billion dollar industry that is the Christian Industrial Complex…
and all the girls he used? Just cannon fodder, just like all the girls that other organized crime uses…
I keep coming back to the parable of the Sheppard leaving the 99 for the one that is lost…
Sòpwith,
Well,
It is quite clear that the “Christian Industrial Complex” is INCAPABLE of policing itself, AND it is willing to not only “cover up” beyond disgusting behavior, it is willing to employ mafia tactics to intimidate whistle blowers (i.e. break her down Paige Patterson, and now the person at leadership at RZIM that “knows ex-cop that is rough on the edges”).
So to answer your question, how to go forward?? I do not think the “Christian Industrial Complex” is fixable…. I for one, will actively NOT support it, and am willing to be whistle blower… I think we need to convince more people: If they see something, say something…. Unlike the government, the only real “power” that the Christian Industrial Complex has is in the mind of pew peons…
That is difficult (as difficult as human nature). There is of course no magic formula but I think it is worthwhile to look up the theology of the Cross vs. the theology of glory, and think about what the implications are.
Maybe he was there to play in a chess tournament.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgc_LRjlbTU
Rather than promoting Christ, Christian Industrial Complex (CIC) – pronounced “sick” – leaders promote each other. The CIC boys are willing to live with a few stumbles here and there by the brethren in order to keep the CIC machine moving and benefiting them all … books, speaker fees, mega-mania are all at stake.
No other celebrity Christian leaders on that list. Most are probably wealthy RZIM donors – obviously with no discernment or an ability to turn a blind eye and deaf ear to RZ sins for the good of the “ministry” and to protect their contributions.
Yep, after a while, Christian celebrities fade into obscurity. Hybels who? Driscoll who? MacDonald who? Ravi who?
Scripture says that believers are to “correct, rebuke and encourage” each other (2 Timothy 4). Too many times, we see boards of Christian celebrities encourage but fail to correct and rebuke. In cases like RZ, the last place you want God to find you is in the “circle of wagons.”
And bless Providence for that.
We also saw it in Islamic groups after 9/11.
The reaction really didn’t help.
Jeffrey J Chalmers,
I agree – the Christian Industrial Complex doesn’t need fixing because it can’t be fixed. Its central design and values are to keep these abuse cycles going.
It’s difficult to get someone to see something when their Income and Position depends on them NOT seeing it.
But that would be Faggy(TM).
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Systems blessings often get interpreted to the receiver and the person getting status and position as “God is blessing me. God is rewarding me and providing for me.”
Is God blessing you? Or are you just doing what the system wants you to do?
If you are thriving and advancing in a spiritually abusive system with overwhelming misogyny, racism, sexual abuse cover ups, cronyism and enmeshment…what does that mean?
System = God to a lot of people in it. Leaving the system is so painful because you are conditioned to think that you are leaving God and going out of God’s blessing. And since you had such a hard time in the system its because God was dissociated toward you and withholding and displeased toward you.
(Trying real hard to not reference the Matrix lol which is the extremely cliche thing to do when talking about “the system”).
Bangkok is THE most infamous Sex Tourism destination in the world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIedNTwiwLc
Except RaviZ spent FAR more than “One Night” in Bangkok.
Someone within RZIM knew of his misbehaving … family, staff, board. There is much more to this sad story.
An inconvenient truth that we see play out time and time again when celebrity “pastors” fall … speak no evil, see no evil, hear no evil. By holding RZ accountable to his sinful living, those benefiting by an ungodly alliance with him would pay the price too … and the longer it goes on, the more difficult and costly it would be to them personally. They forget that a day of reckoning always comes … your sin will find you out.
Max,
They get consultants in to plan their must-have designer accessory scandal. None genuine without!
Max,
The whole board is incredibly stupid/naive, or “covering up” his owning (?) a flat in Bangkok and spend all that time alone there?? So, did donor money pay for his “flat”??
Interesting how so many snide comments are made, many by right wing Christians, about Scientific conferences… and other academic meetings… I could go on and on about comments made toward us “academics”…. yet the “Greatest Apologetic of our time” had a private flat in Bangkok…. sigh…….
You all should read about all “interesting” types of massages they have in Bangkok!! They are known for them!!
Todd Wilhelm,
Sorry if someone already posted it, but the 26pg letter by Ruth Malhorta https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UsmGx0KFQaSDznIpyMgXjeVGV3OD-zEKptrrZrvoWPo/mobilebasic
has oodles more insight into RZIM leadership than was included in the article and is worth the read. She does have one apparent inaccuracy, saying the emails “leaked” in Jan-Feb 2018, when they were posted by Julie Anne in Nov of 2017. (And deleted a few days later but reposted by Steve Baughman— so not hard to find). My “favorite” line in the emails was “Can we not meet at lest once?” since it flatly contradicted RZ’s lawsuit. The typo also made it unlikely the emails were fake— though I supposed they might have been from Ravi Shankar… 😉
Similarly, groups will many times equate what they see as success such as an increase in attendees or contributions that God is “blessing” us. They don’t stop and consider that there might be other reasons for this “success” (in their eyes) that they equate with God is blessing us and thus we must be doing the right thing.
It could be that the charisma of the speaker that caused all this growth. It could be the coercion of the speaker and the group that is responsible.
Everything RZ had was essentially paid for by donor money … such is the life of a celebrity Christian.
God’s measure of success is faithfulness. Was RZ faithful to God? Were RZIM board members faithful to God?
With a touch of charisma, a gift of gab, and a bag of gimmicks any of us could be “blessed” with “successful” ministries. But, would it really have anything to do with God and advancing His Kingdom on earth?
Jeffrey Chalmers,
“owning (?) a flat in Bangkok and spend all that time alone there?? So, did donor money pay for his “flat”??”
++++++++++++
the M&M report says he ‘sought rent reimbursement’ from rzimhq for his time spent there.
double-dipping, i’d say?
now, if rzim bought the two flats, perhaps that would be triple-dipping…quadruple-dipping?
but that would be quite a thing, for rzim to go along with purchasing 2 flats in Bangkok for ravi.
Max,
Back in 1992, the system wined and dined my wife and I to back Veritas Forum, that was paying to have good old Ravi speak…. they are slick when comes to getting $$$… in fact, I have notice the “SICK” system, as Max has now called it, very much operates like other “ fund raising machines that I am familiar with..
given so many of these boards are populated by “successful American business people” ( just look at list in links for RZIM board above)… it is not surprising…
In response to the report about Ravi, an IFB missionary on YouTube, referenced woman fawning over Tiger Woods as an analogy, then went into Ravi falling into sin. After watching that, I looked at some of the post regarding the IFB. I was baptized in an IFB church six years ago. None of this insane response to issues like this were never seen. Some of you know my background as an abused child. Falling into sin sounds a bit innocent. I haven’t done any self study to understand sin in regards to the doctrines around it, other than God’s grace saving us from sin. If anyone has any idea, why does this mindset of looking as the perpetrator as the victim still persist within parts of the Body of Christ.
Brian,
“anyone has any idea, why does this mindset of looking as the perpetrator as the victim still persist within parts of the Body of Christ.”
++++++++++++++++
singing “grace, grace” too many times?
(which is not to say grace isn’t amazing, but come on)
.
.
that, and campaigns devised by evangelical powerbrokers sitting around conference tables in shadowy conference rooms on what & how they want their consumers to think and behave, to bring in the most returns.
just like madison avenue decides what we wear.
or scientists with their lab rats and petri dishes.
or totalitarian propaganda.
…
… with a collective spiritual level you could put in a thimble
Dave A A,
Thanks for posting this….. I can only read sections at a time without getting too upset…. the culture at RZIM is horrible, or, as the first person account says… “toxic”.
… this is the “world’s leading apologist???” And we are suppose to give them $$$ so they can internally behave like this??
As I state again, the “standards in this “Christian” organizations are terrible compared to those of us in “secular, humanistic world”…
Often built into the Complex along with cronyism instead of accountability, transparency, and oversight. “Us vs. them“ is exploited. It even extends to when the “them” comes to be those who were “us” up until persistent hard questions came concerning the one from the Complex whose actions are being questioned. Throw in some proof-texting, and questions spun as divisiveness, slander, what have you are prima facie evidence that the questioner is not only misguided but might be an wolf who failed the salvation fruit inspection by “us”.
Meanwhile, the person raising the issue is hit on many sides and often doesn’t know what hit them — especially if the authoritarians go to work of discrediting and / or “disciplining“ them. Usually, the grievous wolves are the ones casting themselves as the aggrieved and needing protection as they courageously weather what are spun as attacks. If you don’t prioritize accountability, transparency, and oversight from the start and make it a non-negotiable, this is what you can get over and over and over.
SOPY
I am beginning to think that you are not a safe person. Why don’t you simmer down for a couple of weeks and then come back and try harder?
Just tried both links & they worked. Maybe a browser or Apple vs PC issue?
In any case, @RuthDHutchins has snapshots of RZIM Board members on twitter. She’s a good source re: the Board.
Soap opera sounds like 2021 Evangeo-church. Drama, twisted, deep dive into trauma & spin. Truth stranger than fiction.
Would TWW + readers ever imagine, over the course of a decade, the cover-up & exposé? Where we are now? Can the reveal go any lower?
The church model of “successful American business people” fits the church model of substantial tithe$ to $upport a progre$$ive clergy + building + programming or ministry.
Fits with the post about RZ’s rise:
1-charming leader gathering:
2-gullible followers who seek:
3-fast track discipleship.
Project an impressive image & donate substantially for fast track “discipleship” & social promotion.
The video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcWeZS3cnNo) by Mike Winger said the Bangkok apartment was three blocks away from the red light district.
I suggest watching the video, he reads through the whole report and responds to each point accordingly. I only got through, reading on my own, a third of the report before my anxiety was aggravating my neuropothy. Having someone else read it enabled to get through the whole report. Mike’s the first honest and proper response I have seen (I watched it after my initial posting here. Thank you elastgirl and JDV.).
Ravi was unrepentant till the end, he was grooming victims three months before his death. He wasn’t a Christian, he’s burning in Hell right now.
https://premierchristian.news/en/news/article/uk-ministry-of-ravi-zacharias-cuts-ties-with-rzim-and-announces-name-change-following-abuse-scandal
UK ministry of Ravi Zacharias cuts ties with RZIM and announces name change following abuse scandal
Brian,
Why would anybody compare a phenomenon like Tiger Woods with a preacher? Sure, some women chase pro sports stars. There should be NO stardom in the ministry, and no excuses about women throwing themselves at irresistible pastors. Shaking my head. The comparison is just warped. From all I have read, Ravi was a con man and predator, not a victim of star-struck Christian ladies.
That mentality also blames the victim and makes it harder for survivors to understand what happened to themselves. Brian, many people on TWW care for you, and care deeply about what happened to you. You suffered greatly, and you have used your experience to help others.
The only insight I can offer is that predators easily spot vulnerable people, especially children. As a kid, I had no idea how vulnerable I was, and how obvious this would have been to the reptile brain. In my case, I had poor boundaries and no idea what that even meant. So of course I looked like an easy mark to someone who wanted to do me harm.
I grieve for all that you endured, and feel thankful for your survival, strength, and voice.
Over and over … Hybels … Driscoll … MacDonald … Jerry Jr. … Tullian … Lentz… Sproul Jr. … Ravi … over and over.
I found this video podcast helpful,
There was Ravi Zacharias smoke long before there was Ravi Zacharias fire.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHywySwjhSs
Successful sociopaths, from sexual abusers to serial killers, are Masters of Camouflage and Counterattack. They HAVE to appear as The Angel of Light, grooming third parties as allies and halo-polishers, pre-discrediting the victim as Satan. THEY HAVE TO PLAY THE INNOCENT VICTIM, THE INNOCENT GOOD GUY. THEY HAVE TO APPEAR RESPECTABLE IF NOT HOLY.
AND THEY ALWAYS WIN. ALWAYS.
I know, I grew up with one.
I was “The Crazy Kid” to his “Sweet Little Angel”.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
P.S. We only hear about the ones dumb enough to slip up and get caught.
Think about that.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Thank you.
Friend,
Thank you
And you know for sure that he’s burning in hell right now?
What a grisly sentence to pronounce on anyone.
This post might get lost in such a long thread that is already a few days old.
The 13:15 mark in the video below starts what is probably the most succinct and strong reason I have ever heard to support the tearing down of ministries setup by abusive leaders. This snippet at the end of the section is especially strong:
“That abuse and that pathology – it doesn’t stay up with the leader. It trickles down in the group and good people end up doing really bad things.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U4Cq-dgNnw&feature=youtu.be
I grew up with one, too. And he always won….
And I am still paying the price…
Herein is the mistake – conflating this man-made institution of celebrity fraudsters with ‘The Church of the Living God’. Until we recognize and correct this error, we will continue to be used and disillusioned.
This was my first thought. Anyone ever hear of Jeffrey Epstein?
Did any christian celebrities visited Ravi’s spas, or his apartments in Bankok? Where else did he travel, and did he host others? How much money was channeled by Ravi, to whom and for what? If they are reluctantly admitting some of the abuse, how much are they still hiding? Trafficking? Blackmail? The lessons still not learned from Epstein (among others) is that serial abuse involving powerful people and beautiful young women is rarely just a sexual perversion thing. It also involves the ‘power’.
People need to demand every single name of the so-called RZIM board. And every single powerful person who associated with and traveled with Ravi. Where is Ravi’s black book? If y’all think sexual blackmail is relegated to the secular powerful, you are still naive.
Now we’re getting warmer.
Are you thinking what I’m thinking when I read that?
“Just like Epstein’s “Special” Island, Except CHRISTIAN*T(TM)!”
You can’t rebrand a ministry like this, founded by such a man and so closely identified with him. I say about RZIM what I say about the Legionaries of Christ, who keep insisting they can rebrand and “recover their charism,” even though their founder was a monster: “Burn it all down!”
I am so seriously out of it. I had heard of Ravi Z, but I had no idea who he was. And this is literally the first time I’ve heard about this scandal.
“THE SPICE MUST FLOW.”
— Dune
“Most cults are started so the Cult Leader can (1) Get Rich; (2) Get Laid; or (3) Both.”
— My old Dungeonmaster, at a post-game gabfest in his apartment parking lot