“I think the warning labels on alcoholic beverages are too bland. They should be more vivid. Here is one I would suggest: "Alcohol will turn you into the same a**hole your father was.” ― George Carlin, When Will Jesus Bring the Pork Chops? link
Warning: Unless RC Sproul Jr gets some real help, the next incident could be tragic.
We received an email from a former member of RC Sproul Jr's church. Through the years, we have heard that RC Sproul Jr has had an issue with drinking. We were reluctant to write about this since he continued in ministry under his dad. Surely his dad RC Sproul Sr would have dealt with it. Once again, I am proven wrong. However, this email led me to do some reading at the Spinderella Sproul website.
This website has been following RC Sproul Jr for years and has documented many problems with his ministry. We have covered some of these issues through the years. This Wikipedia article covers things like the Ashley Madison scandal and his defrocking. Julie Anne Smith, at Spiritual Sounding Board, has written a number of article on him, including accusations that he allegedly believes in wife spanking.
Unfortunately, in spite of years of problems including accusations of excessive alcohol intake, it does not appear that dad Sproul and others in his orbit did much to help him deal with his alleged substance abuse issues. Eventually, when loved ones look the other way and/or enable the behavior of people who have drinking problems, a crisis will rear its ugly head, as it did in this case.
Here is part of. the email we received.
I'm a former member of RC Jr's "church" St. Peter Presbyterian. I've been following with some interest his recent arrest for drunk driving with his kids in the car. For those of us who've personally witnessed RC drunk it came as no surprise. My biggest concern is that he'll give some time for the dust to settle and then weasel his way back into "ministry." The only thing that's likely to prevent it is more public exposure.
As you might already know he recently plead guilty to one felony in a plea bargain. Given what a big deal his arrest was it's surprising to me there hasn't been hardly any further word about his status since then. The only place that seems to have stayed on top of giving updates has been the Spinderella Sproul blog, the same blog you linked to in your original post.
So maybe it calls for a TWW update? You can gain a lot of useful info from going through the pertinent comments in the thread I linked to (waste of your time reading the ones from Mr. Smith though). This comment seems especially relevant.
I've enclosed a letter from Lael Hill, the Indiana State coordinator for MADD who I've been in contact with. She's given me permission to share her letter and you can use it as you deem fit.
Sproul initially pled "Not guilty" and tried to get heard in the Drug Court.
RC Sproul Jr initially pled *not guilty," proving he was not ready to face his issues. Basically, he lied. If he didn't lie, why would he later plead guilty?
Here is a report of the arresting officer.
Per the sworn affidavit of the arresting Allen County Police Officer Paul Heffner he observed RC Sproul Jr driving left of the center line, failing to maintain his lane, driving off the roadway, striking a curb, and weaving. He was also driving at 30 mph for at least 2 miles with a flat tire on I-469. When he was stopped, the officer observed that Sproul needed support to walk, he swayed, mumbled and had a moderate smell of alcohol on his breath. A chemical test later revealed his blood alcohol content as 0.175, more than twice the legal limit. He was also arrested and charged with endangering the lives of his two minor children who were with him in the car.
Today RC Sproul Jr pleaded not guilty and requested a trial by jury. The court has set a trial date of June 6, 2017.
Sproul tried to get this heard in the Drug Court but was unsuccessful because he was charged with felonies not misdemeanors.
Driving drunk with two minors netted him two felony charges,
On May 30, 2017 RC Sproul Jr appeared before Judge Frances C. Gull in Allen County Indiana Drug Court to determine his eligibility for the Drug Court Treatment Program. Had he qualified and successfully completed all the requirements of the Drug Court Treatment Program he could have avoided a criminal trial altogether. He might have even qualified to have his criminal record expunged.
However, as we noted previously, Drug Court only applies to misdemeanor charges.
Sproul pled guilty to one felony and the rest of the charges were dropped.
On 6/2/17, Spinderella Sproul posted Spinderella Sproul: Lessons In Spin With RC Sproul Jr.
Having failed to meet the legal criteria of having his criminal case accepted by the Allen County Drug Court, RC Sproul Jr appeared on June 2, 2017 in Allen County Indiana Superior Court before Judge Samuel Keirns for a pre-trial status conference. In that hearing RC Sproul Jr plead guilty to one of four criminal charges against him:
9-30-5-3(a)(2)/F6: Operating Veh. While Intox or Controlled Substance: Passenger Under 18
His three other criminal charges, two misdemeanors and one other felony, were dismissed under a plea agreement in exchange for his pleading guilty to the one felony.
He was sentenced to 1 year and 183 days incarceration. That prison sentence was suspended and he was remanded to "1 year active adult probation."
RC Sproul Jr was facing up to 7 years in prison and $21,000 in fines. Under this plea agreement he will face no prison time, provided he successfully completes the requirements of his probation. However, he does now have a permanent criminal record, and a felony record, no less.
No doubt RC Sproul Jr is breathing a huge sigh of relief that he will not have to face a full criminal trial before a jury. That trial had been scheduled for June 6, 2017. The odds of his being able to convince a jury of his innocence was remote.
Besides others being irate at the lenient sentence, Mothers Against Drunk Driving was also none too pleased.
Were Sproul Jr's actions consistent with his Pro Life stance?
Spinderella points out that his behavior is hypocritical, given Sproul's involvement in the Pro-Life Movement.
What's especially remarkable about this case, and therefore makes it even more newsworthy, is that RC Sproul Jr is a well-known and very public spokesman for the Pro-Life movement. He's even raised a lot of money for various pro-life causes. RC Sproul Jr has characterized abortion as a terrible form of violence and a "holocaust" against the pre-born. Yet at the same time he treats his own children with total disregard for their safety, as though their lives had no value.
Sproul allegedly has a long history with alcohol abuse and drunk driving, although not arrested or convicted of doing so until this year.
According to Spinderella, Sproul has allegedly been drunk driving with his kids for years.
none of that was news to us — he's been doing all that for years
According to Spinderella, the church governing body was aware of this issue for many years. He allegedly also served children alcohol.
Many members of St. Peter Presbyterian Church, the church that he started in Virginia, and then subsequently resigned from after his defrocking in 2006, often witnessed RC Sproul Jr inebriated, including at various church celebrations (i.e. keggers). It was commonplace at those church parties that minor children were served alcoholic beverages, including drinks spiked with Everclear (190 proof grain alcohol). RC Sproul Jr fostered a culture of heavy drinking at St. Peter Presbyterian Church, not just with church members but also with the pastors he invited to his "Pastor Camps" (open bars were the norm). He was also known to turn a blind eye to drunk driving. For example a young man who was one of RC Jr's personal assistants had lost his driver's license because of multiple DUIs. RC Sproul Jr was well aware of it but raised no objections to his continued driving. After all the assistant still needed to run numerous errands for RC, and a little thing like a suspended driver's license wasn't going to get in the way of that.
Drunkenness was one of a number of formal charges that were brought against RC Sproul Jr in late 2005 to his denomination, the Reformed Presbyterian Church General Assembly. As word of these charges spread a number of other former members of St. Peter Presbyterian Church also stepped forward and corroborated the allegations, including the fact that some of their own children had been plied with alcohol without their consent.
RC Sproul Jr has experienced tragedy in his life.
1. His wife passed away from cancer in December 2011.
Denise Sproul passes away from leukemia.
2. His daughter, Shannon, born with Lissencephaly, died in October, 2014 at the age of 15. This rare disease is profoundly disabling and usually results in an early death.
Heartbreaking tragedy is not an excuse for substance abuse. Sproul Jr. needs serious help.
I learned an important lesson while working in an alcoholic hospital when I was young. Tragedy does not cause alcoholism. Alcoholism is an excuse to drink and every alcoholic in the world usually tries to find an excuse to drink.
In reading through the Spinderella blog, I read a number of comments which accused Sproul Jr. of telling people in his former church to stop taking medications for psychiatric disorders. This led to serious issues for the people involved. If these stories are true, then it is evident that Sproul looked to alcohol for relief from his pain and was able to ignore the fact that he was, in fact, treating his depression. Sadly those poor folks he advised not to take their medicines were far more intelligent and realistic than Sproul Jr.
It might appear that his parents and family have helped Sproul continue on his trajectory with excessive use of alcohol as opposed to getting him the serious counseling that he needs.
Since he pled guilty to a felony, there is no question that Sproul is an alcoholic and needs serious counseling. He made need to be hospitalized and treated by those who are not overly impressed with the Sproul name. This man needs help. If he has been drinking as long as is being alleged, Sproul is at high risk of offending again. The next time, his children or people in other cars may not be spared. If people in his orbit keep hiring attorneys and keep making sure he has lots of money, they are enablers and will bear some of the guilt when something tragic happens. Mark my words, it will happen. This was a wake up call.
Finally, if anyone who is aware of further drunk driving or other forms of abuse, I hope that they will call Child Protective Services. This is not cruel. Those children need help as well. They are likely growing up in a home with an alcoholic and will develop serious problems as the years go on. RC Sproul Sr-time to protect those grandchildren.
UPDATE (6/23/17):
As I (Deb) have shared before with our TWW readers, when I was just 12 years old, I was in a vehicle that was struck by a drunk driver. A friend had invited me to go to the beach for a fun weekend with her and her parents. Tragically, her parents were killed upon impact, and my friend and I were pinned in the GMC pick-up in which we were riding. It took rescue workers 2-1/2 hours to cut us out of the wreckage.
My friend's injuries were so severe that she was in the hospital at UNC for months and months. Here bones had been severely broken, and I will never forget seeing her elbow and knee in traction. She lost an eye because when her cheek struck the dashboard, the bone came out through her eye socket. She also lost her two front teeth, among other serious injuries.
I sustained a skull fracture (from which I could have died had I not undergone surgery quickly), broken toes, a broken pinky, as well as several fractured vertebrae in my neck. I also had lacerations above my eyes and on my arms and legs, along with scalded skin from an exploding radiator.
They say a picture is worth a thousand words. Here are photos of my injuries a few days after the horrific tragedy. If sharing these ghastly pictures will convince someone not to drink and drive, I will be so grateful!
Deb's Facial Injuries
Deb's Injuries
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Ugh…..the nastiness continues.
Verbal bullying is not appreciated, nor warranted.
Please Velour give it up….turn the other cheek, as you have been demanding others do.
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@ Velour:
Sorry Velour, you have & are taking this much too far. I’ll email Dee with my concerns later but let me state them for you now so this is public:
* Since starting to comment here you have taken an oddly proprietory tone, as though not-quite that this is your blog, but that somehow you act as ‘hostess’ of the comments here. At first I thought maybe the Deebs had asked you to do this to help out, but then I realised it was just how you did things, maybe I misread you & what did it matter anyway. Clearly it does matter now as you are gatekeeping this thread & deciding who is behaving as a Christian here.
* At this point it seems that nothing but an abject apology & grovelling retraction from Barbara, Julie-Anne or anyone who has said something you disagree with will do, & an acknowledgement that you’re the expert & only you know the right way to think here. That’s unfair.
* You keep talking about those who have been hurt, who lurk here. For that I am truly sorry. However, it seems that grace is often only expected in one direction when alcohol issues are involved – from those without an addiction towards those with one, without anything going the other way, & suddenly this entire discussion becomes dependent on no-one with addiction lurking here (despite us not knowing) finding anything hard. Weirdly, when you said I found things hard – not hard actually but uncomfortable in a different way, embarrassing – I was to skip over it & move on. It was 5 seconds work to point out to anyone lurking that this was case specific to Sproul Jr, & not to all. Your endless rehashing has undermined a very simple solution to the initial misunderstanding. For those of us who have dealt with addicts this is unsurprising however, because eventually everything becomes about them & their comfort, & everyone else & their feelings always has to yield.
* And yes it is a wonderful story about the alcoholic lady at the church, but it’s starting to stick in my craw – this is because you are holding it up as an object lesson for all situations. However, clearly this lady was not an aggressive drunk, an abusive drunk, a puking drunk, a fitting drunk, an inappropriately behaving drunk, a yelling drunk, a swaggering drunk or that situation of her being in church under the influence could not have continued for long. Again, that entire church service every week would otherwise have revolved around her every week & the rest of the congregation taken a second place, forever. She clearly also had some kind of genuine repentance going on, not just the religious themed endless self-pity some indulge in. Short story – different cases need different treatment, all underpinned by love & wisdom.
So that’ll be the gist of what I’ll mention to Dee, there is one other issue I’ll be mentioning, but that may involve something I don’t know & want to check with Dee first.
Start your own blog Velour & come back to normal participation here.
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@ Mae:
Sigh.
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Christiane wrote:
Context is key. And the context in which this post was written by Dee has been changed to something different by commentors. Some comments that were meant for the original context of this post are being scrutinized under a different context now.
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Beakerj wrote:
Hopefully, better days ahead.
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Jack wrote:
I realize this is your opinion, and it is your right to have it.
Staying secular was a disaster for me, as well as many other people I know. The power of God has been exponentially greater than any human power any of us had.
I do know people (including my FIL, whom I mentioned earlier) who have had success overcoming addictions. A former pastor’s dad was also a dry alcoholic for a number of years, as happened to other friends’ relatives, too. In all those cases, this of course helped in some ways (mainly, holding jobs and the families’ finances), but their personalities were unredeemed — they were rude and nasty and sometimes just plain mean. It was when the Lord moved in a powerful way in their lives that they were completely transformed, living different lives from then on. I saw this up close and personal.
The same was true for my dad, although his addiction was not a common one. Even so, it caused tremendous pain, divorce, wounded children, and a terrible nosedive in his personal life and finances. He was very prideful and did not think he needed the Lord because his personality was so winsome — he was a people person and lots of people thought he was the greatest — but eventually he came to the end of himself and humbled himself before the Lord. At that point his life was completely changed and he never hurt anyone else again.
I have seen the love, truth, and power of God transform many, many lives, including my own. I shudder to think what I would be without Him.
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P.S. to Veiour who said, “Perhaps church is part of the problem not part of any solution.”
I meant to add that it is certainly possible that church can be part of the problem. I have known of, and experienced, dysfunctional churches. One huge problem is churches that do not follow the Word of God as they should.
My point was that the Lord Himself can make all the difference when a person’s life is surrendered to Him. I have also known of, and experienced, healthy churches which facilitated this.
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Claire wrote:
Hi Claire,
I didn’t say that. Jack did. I guess it’s a block quote problem.
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Beakerj wrote:
I had heard of Anne Lamott (the lady referred to here), but was not familiar with her life, so I googled her and found a linked essay (at Salon) in which she addressed issues with her teen son (at that time). That gave me some context about her life, and she clearly needed more help at that time. I do hope the situation with her son got better and that her life did, too.
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Claire wrote:
Yes, in A.A. they refer to alcoholics who have stopped drinking but have all of the nasty personality traits that you mentioned as “dry drunks” or a people “who have put the plug in the jug” but haven’t had a spiritual transformation.
I am glad for the miracles that you have seen in the people around you who were alcoholics who have had spiritual transformations and that they have never harmed another person again.
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Velour wrote:
Sorry about that, Velour. It was an honest mistake and I fixed it.
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As a born-again Christian whose life was completely transformed by the Lord, I have to ask, hoping someone will know: I am a little bit familiar with the TULIP theology (the theology of Sproul’s church? if I understand correctly), and it is my understanding — from conversations with a friend whose church subscribes to TULIP theology — that they do not believe in being born again, or the need to be born again.
If my understanding is imperfect in any way, please feel free to enlighten me. If that is true, this gives me greater understanding of Sproul Jr’s problem (NOT suggesting this is a TULIP theology problem; I know better than that).
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Claire wrote:
No worries, Claire.
It happens all of the time here, and to me too.
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Claire wrote:
Hi Claire,
There are others here, like Gram3 or Ken F. (and others), who can give you a greater understanding of the workings of NeoCalvinism and T.U.L.I.P. and what’s wrong with it. They do a good job of it and maybe one of them will explain it to you.
I will, however, give you my personal experience after a ‘tour of duty’ of a NeoCalvinist church that had ties to Mark Dever’s 9 Marks organization and John MacArthur’s (Grace Community Church in Southern California, The Master’s College in California, and The Master’s Seminary in California).
The pastors/elders, and many church members, at my ex-NeoCalvinist church frequently talked about being among God’s Elect…before the beginning of time.
When the chairman of the elder board asked me to give my testimony at a Good Friday Easter Vigil, which I did, he then wrapped it up with that I was among God’s Elect and had been chosen before the beginning of time. I was shocked and found the whole thing creepy.
The Gospels were skipped over in the NeoCalvinist church that I attended (and many others who post here have noted same in the NeoCalvinist churches).
Love. I didn’t really see any deep love for people within the church or outside of it. It was cold. After all, if you’re among The Elect and everyone else is not, than why spend any time on them or care about them as human beings.
Everything was framed as us versus them (The Elect v. The Non Elect).
The senior pastor constantly talked about how The Elect would be given horses, probably with sashes on them with their names, by Jesus and doing war on his behalf.
I don’t think that many of these NeoCalvinists have ever encountered Jesus.
In fact, I rarely heard Jesus mentioned. And I didn’t hear the Holy Spirit mentioned.
It doesn’t surprise me that we’re seeing implosion after implosion in NeoCalvinism and among their clergy.
I can’t speak to R.C. Sproul Jr.’s serious drinking problem and how NeoCalvinism impacts him. But an arrogant theology is no good for someone who already has a problem with humility.
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Beakerj wrote:
Point well taken. And there was repentance in her life. However, in many ways she did not fit the profile of members, yet she was loved. This church has also loved some people I don’t consider lovable. It teaches and shows mercy, although imperfectly.
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Claire wrote:
Anne Lamott’s life has gotten much better! Her son is doing fine. Her grandchild is doing fine.
The little Black church in Northern California that loved Anne when she wasn’t clean and sober, when she heard their beautiful singing from the flea market across the street and was drawn to their church (and Jesus was pursuing Anne), has become her home church!
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@ Beakerj:
I am sorry for the pain that you have been through in dealing with alcoholics.
I know it has been very sad and destructive.
I have a comment to you “waiting to clear customs”.
This has been a triggering subject for many people, because of all of the various issues that come up relating to alcoholism. It is such a prevalent problem.
Please take good care of yourself right now.
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Velour wrote:
I did not see any disagreement between us in the first issue you mentioned. I do believe that RSJ will not have a REASON to repent and allow the Lord to change his life if others keep propping him up, not allowing him to suffer the consequences of his egregious behavior, which has also imperiled his own children’s lives. Honestly, that bothers me most of all. His excuses for living a drunken life are sickening, as well. They would sicken me even if he were not a preacher.
I think it was H.A. who linked another article which exposed more terrible realities about RSJ’s rebellious life, and those who have enabled him to continue in such horrific practices cannot be excused. They have definitely been part of the problem, not a solution. I don’t know the totality of that particular church’s or denomination’s beliefs, but something is definitely “off” and needs to be changed. Sooner rather than later.
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Velour wrote:
I am so glad to see this. 🙂
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Velour wrote:
I can see you’re now using my apology and request for forgiveness as some sort of trophy, i.e. “Ahah, chalk one up for me! I won!” Now you’re demanding Barbara and Julie Anne must do the same or you’ll just keep reminding them over and over and over again what meanies they are. I don’t think you’ve forgiven me or you wouldn’t be doing this.
Although I was sincere in asking for your forgiveness, because it’s the right thing to do, I also had another very important reason: it was to set an example, an example not for Barbara and Julie Anne, but for you. I’d hoped that you might come to see a need to humble yourself. Instead your bullying just continues.
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Velour, thank you for relating your experience with, and insights regarding, NeoCalvinism. (I’ve seen that term before, but am not sure of its exact meaning vs. historic TULIP Calvinism?)
You said, “Everything was framed as … The Elect v. The Non Elect.”
Yes, this agrees with my TULIP friend’s statements.
You said, “I can’t speak to R.C. Sproul Jr.’s serious drinking problem and how NeoCalvinism impacts him. But an arrogant theology is no good for someone who already has a problem with humility.”
Total agreement here. As it is written, “Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.”
I thought that John MacArthur was Baptist, maybe Southern Baptist? I am aware that the SBC has had at least one president with (Neo?)Calvinist ties, and, again, I cannot comprehend what common ground they find. I thought (but maybe I’m mistaken?) that Southern Baptists emphasize the importance of the new birth. Here’s hoping that others here can enlighten me, because I do believe this is a significant issue.
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Claire wrote:
Hi Claire,
From my understanding and experience, as well as other people who have commented here, there is a world of difference between Classical Calvinists (many of us have had mild-mannered Presbyterians in our families) who were loving, kind, and gracious people and the new, rabid, NeoCalvinists who are authoritarians.
Apparently the Young, Restless, and Reformed decided to ‘recover the ‘True Gospel” that has been lost in our churches, as though everyone preceding them was in error.
I’m not a Southern Baptist. From what others who are Southern Baptists have posted here for quite some time, the NeoCalvinists planned to take over the seminaries, train them up in all things NeoCalvinism, and send them out to do takeovers of churches, including stealth takeovers. Much damage has been done. I just wish the NeoCalvinists/YRR’s had started their own denomination.
I don’t know John MacArthur’s history in churches. Maybe somebody else like Ken F. can contribute their knowledge on this point. I do know that many people think that John MacArthur should just declare his own denomination as that is essentially what it has now become.
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Velour wrote:
Just like the Wahabi & Talibani decided to “recover the ‘True Islam’ as it was in the Days of the Prophet”.
P.S. “AS THOUGH”?
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I hesitate to beat a tired horse… but I really don’t believe Barbara Roberts or anyone else actually said a person should be put out of the church because of their substance abuse. Rather, if any person claims to be a brother (or sister) but continues UNREPENTANT in one or more of the sins listed in 1 Corinthians 5 (drunkard being on that list), the brethren are not even to share a meal with them.
This is the scripture that backs up verbal abuse, among other things things, being grounds for divorce. If a believer is not to even eat with an UNREPENTANT reviler/railer (or any of the other sins listed), how is that believer supposed to stay married to one? Again, the key is LACK OF REPENTANCE on the part of the sinner. Jesus said by their fruits you shall know them, and if they don’t show the fruits of repentance, they are unrepentant, no matter what they may claim.
If the substance abuser/drunkard (or perpetrator of one of the other listed sins) does show genuine fruit of genuine repentance, however, even if they are still struggling to overcome and may relapse from time to time, I don’t think anyone here would suggest they should be put out of the church or not be allowed back in.
And it occurs to me to wonder what they’re teaching at a church where unrepentant sinners feel comfortable enough to stick around and keep coming back for more, apparently not coming under the conviction of the Holy Spirit enough to want to stop grieving the Spirit, renounce whatever sin it might be and get right with God. But that’s another discussion entirely.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Thanks for being my copy editor, H.U.G. Correct.
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@ Claire:
When I get home tomorrow I will re-post the list of links to the best articles I’ve found exposing the pitfalls of Calvinism. But for now, this one is pretty good (written by an ex-Calvinist who has studied in detail everything John Calvin ever wrote): https://www.perichoresis.org/why-i-left-calvinism/. This guy has probably read more about Calvinism than most of the famous New-Calvinists.
Two years ago I could not remember what TULIP stood for and I could not tell you any of the basics of “reformed” theology. I’ve learned quite a lot since then. Also, if you want some fun, search on the “Grace to You” site to find where John MacArthur wrote “the ultimate reality is Jesus saves us from God.” If that is not a twisted view of the Trinity I don’t know what is.
More later.
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Velour wrote:
Their gospel does not have many similarities with the Gospel that was pretty much passed down through a mostly united church for around the first 1000 years of Christianity. Too tired to go into the details right now. I’m guessing that the early church is closer to the truth than people who invented something new 1500 years after the fact. But I don’t even have a PhD, so what do I know?
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Some random thoughts on my part: Maybe because of my alcoholic family,even though I get angry when I think of all the damage that was done, obviously addicts are sick. Would a well person engage in such self destructive behavior and mistreat their children? My mom loved us but she was ensnared in a terrible disease. This is why I don’t believe an addict should be removed from church membership. But church leadership is a different story and predatory behavior should not be allowed.
I think the reasons churches no longer do church discipline is because it was usually not handled well. I know many years Baptists used church discipline as a way to punish people or control them.
We don’t have to judge a persons heart (Mr Sproul) or any criminal for that matter to say we don’t know why you did such and such but we cannot allow you to hurt anyone else and then throw their ass in jail (Remove all opportunities to hurt people)
Finally addicts either get better or they die. Many are never recovered. The devil is indeed a roaring lion seeking who he may destroy and devour. We should cry when a human soul is destroyed. No one should ever ever rejoice. God who is definitely not a calvinist says Do I have any joy in the death of the wicked but rather theythat they turn from their ways and live? Ezekiel chapter 18.
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Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
An advanced degree is no guarantor of intellectual moxie. I’ve watched a New Hampshire stone mason with an AA degree make the chair of a university engineering dept. look silly with his simple and yet elegant method of placing a 70 ton obelisk into the upright position (it was on a PBS Nova episode).
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Claire wrote:
RC1 is ordained in the PCA which is a conservative Presbyterian denomination holding to TULIP. RC2 has been in other non-standard “reformed” denominations. I would *not* call him Reformed because I do not think his hyper-Covenantal Federal Vision theology is consistent with any of the standard Reformed confessions. For sure it has nothing *at all* to do with being born again. Such an idea would be considered absurd in RC2’s theology. In fact, in RC2’s own FV theology, he has shown himself to be reprobate. I haven’t kept up with RC2, and perhaps he has changed since FV is not as trendy as it used to be. Perhaps H.A. has more recent information.
All that being said, theology is not RC2’s problem and theology is not going to be the solution to his problem, IMO.
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Claire wrote:
Sorry to hear that. I’m glad that faith has worked out for you.
I’ve never had to deal with spiritual abuse and even when I was attending church, couldn’t go all in as it were. Not everyone is transformed by the experience.
That being said, I have lately been finding prayer to be very therapeutic.
Putting this in a ‘christian trends’ narrative, looking at case of churches like Sproul’s and others discussed, everyone’s spiritual walk needs balance.
If a church or a certain pastor becomes so central to your existence to the exclusion of everything else then it’s probably not a good thing.
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Claire wrote:
There’s an old Bill Cosby video (a standup performance) titled Bill Cosby: Himself. (This was long before he became known as “Pill Cosby”.)
In one segment, he demonstrates in gory detail what it’s like to drink yourself sick, then ends the segment with the line “This is called ‘Having a Good Time’.”
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Christiane wrote:
Just like Scientology auditing records.
And the accountability group leader gets a Hero of the Party medal from Pastor Big Brother Himself.
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H.A. Way too many comments here have nothing at all to do with the subject, which is RC Sproul Jr, a wolf in sheep’s clothing who has destroyed the lives and faiths of dozens of people and families. Alcohol abuse has played a part in that, yes, but RC Jr would have still been a spiritual bully and done the same things had he been a teetotaler too. His emotional and psychological issues are not the result of his being an alcoholic — it’s the other way around. Getting him sober won’t cure his personality disorders. So whether he sobers up or not the focus needs to be on doing whatever is necessary to prevent him from scheming his way back into ministry where he will be given the opportunity of committing more spiritual abuse.
Putting the focus on Sproul’s alcoholism — getting him into treatment, support groups, counseling, church support, etc. — is playing right into his hands and giving him exactly what he wants. Why? Because if the focus is on the booze, and he from all appearances sobers up (which he could very well do) then where does that leave those of us who are his spiritual abuse victims? It lets him off the hook for all the spiritual abuse and leaves him free to weasel his way back into ministry once the dust settles.
Taking everything into consideration — including the article you linked earlier, which gave much more information about Sproul Jr’s serious issues apart from alcohol abuse — I tend to agree with everything you said here.
I think these are great insights. I am also very concerned about him taking the treatment, saying he’s cured, and then going right back to the other issues if they weren’t addressed, causing even more harm — especially if believers have forgiven him and open themselves up to more abuse.
Christians are often reminded to forgive, and I totally agree with that. But if an offender has not seen his need for forgiveness, hasn’t repented with godly sorrow which leads to repentance not to be repented of (ref 1 or 2 Corinthians), then he is still a unrepentant, rebellious person. It is also true that when Christians do the right thing and forgive an offender, that does not mean they should throw wisdom to the winds and give him total trust. That needs to be earned by evidence of a changed heart, mind, and life — what the Bible calls “fruits of repentance”.
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Oops, sorry for the mis-formatting of my reply to H.A. My reply starts with “Taking everything into consideration…” I do wish we could edit. 🙂
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P.S. to something that H.A. said: “[Sproul Jr’s] emotional and psychological issues are not the result of his being an alcoholic — it’s the other way around. Getting him sober won’t cure his personality disorders. So whether he sobers up or not the focus needs to be on doing whatever is necessary to prevent him from scheming his way back into ministry where he will be given the opportunity of committing more spiritual abuse.”
After reading the info here, as well as the other article you linked which gave a much fuller picture of his life, I wonder if he’s a Christian at all. I know I’m not God and God knows his heart (as well as everyone else’s), so I’m not trying to judge. I just remember the words of Christ Jesus: “By their fruit you shall know them.”
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I had the opportunity to some of his standup performances back in the day, but missed this one. I’m glad he did this.
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Claire wrote:
I just watched that on Youtube. It is very funny. I especially enjoyed the part about not being surprised to see your shoes come up.
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Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
Thank you, Ken. I still have questions, but that did help. Does that guy consider himself to be a NeoCalvinist (or something else, maybe no label)? IOW, are those the (or at least some) issues which separate “new” from “old”? I couldn’t tell.
About that article, my main point of disagreement (I agreed with a lot of it) is that, yes, Christ Jesus is clearly Creator (I love all the verses he quoted about that), He definitely gave us all our physical lives, but not all are alive in Him spiritually. People are dead in their sins until they have been regenerated by His power.
I absolutely believe that Christ Jesus died for every person who has ever lived and will ever live. At the same time, in a chapter (John 1) which that guy mentioned, John makes it clear that those who are His children *become* children of God — no one is born a child of God. The full context of scripture shows us this, that those who are His children come to Him by faith, being born again by His Spirit, becoming new creatures in Christ Jesus, in whom the former things are passed away and all things are new.
As it is written in one of Peter’s letters: “God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
We know that is God’s will, this does not signify “limited atonement”, and this IS good news for all unsaved sinners. At the same time, we know that Christ Jesus spoke of separating the sheep (saved) from the goats (unsaved) at the final Judgment. The Lord God has given all people free will to accept or reject His free gift of salvation. From all I’ve heard, Calvinists (don’t know about Neo’s) do not believe in free will.
Someone (H.U.G.?) quoted John MacArthur as saying that Christ Jesus died to set us free from God (the Father, I presume). I’ve heard that teaching before (didn’t know JM said it, though), but I believe that teaching is very lacking, ignores the reality which is shown to us throughout the New Testament, and the Old Testament prophecies of the Messiah.
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StillWiggling wrote:
Thanks, I’ll have to look this one up! 🙂
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P.S. Ken, a question I meant to ask above: How does a Calvinist KNOW if he or she is one of the elect? (speaking of their doctrine) And how do they know if someone isn’t? Is there some sort of test they use?
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
H.U.G., I have recently read several books written by people who were deep into Scientology before coming out of it, including the father of the head of Scientology and that guy’s niece.
I looked up L. Ron Hubbard and learned that he was deeply involved in Satanism before inventing Scientology, becoming its god. After all I’ve learned about it, I’m sad to say that is very easy for me to believe.
I’ve never known of a Christian church which made it that hard to leave, but I did know of one whose pastor made it clear that he believed that anyone who left was “out of the will of God”, “in rebellion against Him”. That’s very strong stuff and it did not lead to anything good.
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@ Jack: You said, “If a church or a certain pastor becomes so central to your existence to the exclusion of everything else then it’s probably not a good thing.”
I agree. I knew of one church in which many people’s theology was the gospel according to their pastor. They did not read the Bible for themselves, come into or grow in relationship with the Lord, and that led to serious issues and problems.
Everyone who is alive has problems. Life in Christ Jesus is all about allowing the Him to work in our hearts to lead us through them. So I’m not talking about the simple fact they had problems. What I saw and heard from them was that they felt great at church, but when they weren’t there, they were at rock bottom. The Word of God did not transform their everyday lives as written in Romans 8.
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Gram3 wrote:
Gram3, thank you for this. This makes sense. Sadly so. One thing I meant to say to someone else (maybe Ken) is that since RSJ does not believe in being born again, it is logical to assume he is not.
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P.S. to everyone who has written about Calvinism and Neo:
I read in an article someone posted (seems it was H.A. or Ken) that Neo’s believe that a verse in Genesis 1 (I believe it’s the one where God gave Adam dominion over the world) is as important / significant to them as the Great Commission.
I do not believe this, and I wonder why they do. The Lord God said that to Adam before sin entered the world. That changed everything, as He made clear in the things He said when He expelled them from the Garden.
(I apologize for the numerous posts. I’ve been busy, back and forth to the computer. So additional thoughts keep coming to mind.)
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Claire wrote:
Sadly, I think manipulative groups (‘religious’ and political) try to appeal to a ‘base’ membership by manipulating fear AND existing prejudices.
Maybe it’s a case of a ‘church’ becoming what people already think they need to affirm where they are already at:
example: misogyny ….. ‘religious’ teachers appeal to men who have an elevated sense of male importance and privilege at the expense of the dignity of persons who are female; ‘political’ pundits cry about ‘feminazis’ who demand ‘equal pay for equal work’, and the right to ‘choice’ in matters medical.
The folks who manipulate look at ‘misogyny’ and think: oh boy, we can capitalize on this big time as the fields are ready for harvesting.
People want their prejudices to be affirmed. Any leader who comes along appealing to this need will succeed with such people, yes.
It’s not so hard to figure out. History is full of this stuff. It’s an old play book. Not just ‘misogyny’ is wanting affirmation, but also the many ‘phobias’ (fears) which are ‘popular’ now.
In more than a few cases, people are getting the leadership that panders to their lesser angels.
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Velour wrote:
Well bless your little heart for thinking of me. Being patted on the head is always such a help in these circumstances.
You have entirely missed the point, but nevermind.
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Gram3 wrote:
‘context does matter’ (platitude, check)
‘excuses are not the same thing as reasons’ (platitude, kinda)
‘some can’t see the forest for the trees’ (a favorite of many, yes)
all things considered, you have a grown adult man, a father of children, getting drunk and placing his children in his car and driving:
what could go wrong?
if, God forbid, the worst happened, who/what gets the blame?????
I suggest that a lot of our ‘issues’ are far more complex than we know and are inter-related to one another on multiple levels, so that our own judgements and forms of justice are always going to be the best we can do …… maybe even ‘karma’ is more just?
the thing about a ‘sin’ is that people get hurt: the sinner and all the people he/she affects with that ‘sin’
blame? anger? rage over the destruction of innocent lives?
understandable, yes
then we are drawn back to that scene in the Holy Gospel of St. Matthew “36 When He saw the crowds, He was moved with compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.”
He may have been the only One who could witness this and understand fully all the circumstances ….. and His response was to be moved with compassion, not contempt, nor snark, nor judgement, nor anger, and He was ‘fully human’ and well as ‘fully divine’
All kinds of things in those Gospels, yes. I’m glad on The Day, Our Lord will be the judge of all, because we are sure not geared for it from what I can see.
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@ Christiane:
(Jeremiah 50:6)
“My people have become lost sheep;
Their shepherds have led them astray. They have made them turn aside on the mountains;
They have gone along from mountain to hill And have forgotten their resting place.”
I stumbled over this passage while reading at night by candlelight after eye surgery that was successful. Maybe I can learn something from it now …. providence 🙂
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Jack wrote:
I realise I’ve pulled two fragments of your comment out of context here, Jack – I think I’ve caught the gist of them, but please feel free to correct me if I haven’t!
Religious experience is an odd thing, and it does seem to impact relatively few people. Even in the most heady charismatic worship atmospheres, if you look around the building, you’ll see a few people literally sobbing with pleasure and arousal, most people basically standing in an appropriate manner (they may or may not be experiencing a great deal) and the remaining few people looking bored stiff. The assumption always used to be that the bored stiffs weren’t open to God. I used to believe that, but I no longer do.
ISTM that a lot of people in churches here in Blighty have no expectation of being transformed in any real sense, but also find prayer and (for want of a better phrase) the worship experience therapeutic. They don’t believe in God – as they state more openly and forcefully the more one suggests actually depending on God to supply anything tangible – but find some form of comfort in religious language and behaviour. The best analogy I can think of is the way in which people (certainly over here) talk about Santa bringing presents. They don’t actually believe in Santa, but at the same time, we’ve all agreed not to talk about this and to keep up the game.
It’s an odd thing to find in a church; everybody insists on praying but bristles at the suggestion that anybody might (for example) actually be healed! For what it’s worth, I must say I find your approach refreshing; specifically, your taste for frankness and honesty!
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@ Christiane:
We are talking about a church leader. Re-read through the Gospels what Jesus had to say about them….not so compassionate.
Also, I seem to remember Jesus warning those who would harm children, they’d be better off putting a millstone around their necks and jumping into the sea.
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Christiane wrote:
Here is a problem with quoting something from Jesus and then building a larger concept from it. The quoted passage states precisely what it was about the crowds about which in relation to them He had compassion, ‘harassed, helpless, like sheep without a shepherd’. You have used this passage as Jesus being anti ‘contempt… snark…judgement…anger’.
I have heard this same passage used as clear evidence that Jesus thought that people need ‘strong leadership’ (shepherds) and do not do well ‘without shepherds’. That is an entirely different take away from the same passage.
I keep hearing people advocate preaching from the gospels. Indeed a good idea. But here is one example of the sort of thing that can happen. The gospels are chock full of little things that people can pick up and use in vastly different ways.
Example: ‘Neither do I condemn you’ regarding the women taken in adultery. Have we not all heard that used as a starting place for all sorts of ideas. That is fertile ground for more fantasies than there are fairy tales. I have even heard postulated that this shows Jesus was an early modern feminist-that he excused her because only she was under arrest and not the man; as a women’s lib decision, basically as a political statement of that day. The trouble is, the bible does not specify what the take-away is from that episode. And the mind of man speculates widely. Usually in defense of some favored idea or agenda, which of course vary from person to person.
So what I am saying is-there are problems with forming conclusions based on isolated statements or observations, including isolated statements by or observations concerning Jesus. That does not mean we should not do it, but for me it does mean that we recognize the limitations of limited statements and form only appropriately limited conclusions.
And this is one of several things that made me a pretty bad SBC Baptist back in the day. I kept hearing conclusions preached from fragments of scripture and I kept looking at the scripture and thinking ‘it did not actually say that’ and/or ‘that may be one idea, but using the actual words of scripture that is not the only idea from that scripture passage’.
Evidence for what I am saying: Even the neo-cals preach from the Bible, and even the Episcopalians preach from the Bible but we come up with different ideas-with scripture references to back us up.
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@ H.A.:
FWIW, I appreciate your contributions on this thread. I thought it was your first time here, which you’ve subsequently confirmed.
This has been a very strange thread. One regular Wartburger in particular has found it abnormally difficult, and it’s really hard to know what else to say about that now, TBH. I felt your apology was all it could have been, and I say that having had to apologise myself to a commenter here a while back for a comment that was by any standards snarky and inappropriate, more so than yours have been.
I hope you’ll stay.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
H.A., I agree. Everyone who actively comments here will eventually get cross-threaded with another commentor. It usually works itself out. Please continue to participate.
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Claire wrote:
Those holding to Covenant Theology are more likely to hold that view because of their view of an overarching Covenant of Grace which would include both the Dominion Mandate and the Great Commission. Many of the Calvinistas we talk about here hold to New Covenant Theology (with the notable exception of John MacArthur who is a leaky Dispie), though that is getting off the green and well into the theological rough. There is some good material online about NCT, including a lecture series on the Master’s Seminary site!
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Claire wrote:
This is a very inciteful question. The only way they can know is if they don’t fall away (the P in TULIP). Hence the legalistic spirit that so often comes with Calvinism. But they don’t even have this assurance because of “evanescent grace” (lool up this term). Calvin taught that God tricks some people into thinking they are among the elect only so that he can punish them harsher for their false faith. You can find this in his Institutes. I’m typing this with my thumbs in an airport. I can post links when i get home if you cannot find anything.
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Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
Typo – meant to type insightful.
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Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
… tell Me about it.
Best regards,
God
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@ Christiane:
Missed the point of your comment if it was directed at what I wrote. Unless you were saying I was being snarky. If that was it, then it must have been about the remark about RC2 being reprobate. And, if that was it, then please re-read what I wrote which was that he is reprobate *according to his own theology* which is most definitely *NOT* my theology. I have no idea what the state of his soul or spirit is. I only see what others have seen, which is not a life of doing justice, loving kindness, and walking humbly before God and man, as those who defrocked him also noted.
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Christiane, fact is, Scientology is not a church. It uses the word church to name its organization, but it’s not church. As you said, context matters. Hubbard used religious language to mask the reality of what he invented.
I do not call any women ‘feminazis’ or admire those who do. I have always supported ‘equal pay for equal work’, but I cannot support killing babies in the womb. The Lord God does not give us the ‘choice’ to do that. It’s not just a medical matter, it’s a live person.
I always agree that a woman has the right to decide what happens to her own body — the thing is, as a mom, I know that babies have their own bodies; they have their own DNA; they have their own gender; they have their own fingerprints; they have their own blood types, etc. If they were just part of their mothers’ bodies, they would all be female!
They are separate human beings, and Christ Jesus made it very clear what a horrific judgment would come to those who harm little ones in any way. They are the littlest, the youngest, the most innocent, and the most helpless among us. The Good Shepherd cares for them, loves them, accepts them, and calls us to do the same.
We’ve gone far afield here from the topic of this thread, but these are responses to things you said.
ITA with this statement you made about the thread topic: “…all things considered, you have a grown adult man, a father of children, getting drunk and placing his children in his car and driving.” (endangering their very lives)
And giving alcohol to minors, and him a church pastor! There is something very, very wrong with that picture. I pray his church will awake and take Biblical action in obedience to the Lord.
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@ Gram3: I did not know that RSJ had been defrocked. If that had already been mentioned here, I missed it.
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Barbara Roberts wrote:
Maybe God’s grace is bigger than you think:
http://thechristiancurmudgeonmo.blogspot.com/2013/03/more-already-than-not-yet.html
http://thechristiancurmudgeonmo.blogspot.com/2013/03/more-already-than-not-yet.html
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One thing that I don’t think has been brought up is that RC Sproul Jr. is considered an elder.
I Cor 5 indicates what one should to an elder that continues in sin:
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@ God</b
Awaiting instructions, but would love to be snarkier. Boo for me.
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@ Beakerj:
There’s a message in there somewhere. Maybe that I’m unnecessarily bold? (Only Irish people may get this).
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A man is ‘more than’ his profession, his afflictions, his sins. So we can ‘limit’ the ‘topic’ to one area of a man’s life and focus in on it;
but we run the risk of failing to see important connections to the other aspects of the person.
I’m all for clarity and being specific; but pulling the lens back occasionally to give a wider perspective is also beneficial to understanding.
As far as comments about Our Lord being the final Judge of our kind, I stand by my hope for this because of two reasons:
He is worthy by virtue of the whole Christ Event;
and we humans suck at judging one another.
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Beakerj wrote:
ah the red hair! the good Irish blood! 🙂
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@ Christiane:
The reddish (big ish) hair, the freckles, the milk white skin…Numo’s seen my pic, she says I look Irish.
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Gram3 wrote:
I don’t even know what ‘reprobate’ means, so don’t worry. 🙂
No, my comment ran to generalities and when I do this, it drives people up the wall. Just late night thoughts about a very complex issue that causes many people tremendous concern and, when discussed, arouses deep feelings and upset which sadly has been shown by the interchange of ideas here.
Maybe all the venting is not wasted because if reactions were that strong, perhaps those feelings needed expressing. And I keep picturing that pastor’s two children in the car while he’s driving drunk and I cannot get that image out of my head.
Don’t pay any attention to my ramblings. Believe me, if I get personal in my comments to someone, they will KNOW it without confusion. But someday when I grow up, I hope to leave snark behind and put wit in its place …. someday. 🙂
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Gram3 wrote:
Totally agree with you. Some folks here are putting the focus on the wrong issues. They’re looking for a simple cause and effect relationship. I can sometimes fall prey to this thinking too. We all need to watch out for that, thinking that if we can just identify that one issue in someone’s life we’ll be able to fix them. It’s seldom that simple though.
Some here think that if they can just get RC Jr into alcohol rehab, therapy, counseling, support groups, a supportive church, he’ll sober up and then be a good person. Wrong. He’ll still be an abusive control freak seeking positions of authority where he can lord it over others.
Then there are those here who do see he’s an abusive control freak but think it must be because of TULIP, Calvinism, Federal Vision, or whatever their pet peeve doctrines are. Wrong again. If Sproul abandoned all those things and became an Arminian tomorrow he’d still be an abusive control freak. He’d still be a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Yes, there are Calvinist preachers who are guilty of spiritual abuse, defrauding their churches, alcoholism, being sex perverts, etc. But I could cite plenty examples of non-Calvinists who’ve done the same. Sproul’s theology isn’t what made him such an odious person, and a change of doctrines won’t cure him either. What he needs is professional psychological help for his personality disorders. That same kind of help will also address secondary issues, like his alcoholism.
Focus on root causes, not symptoms or personal pet peeves.
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@ Beakerj:
Everyone didn’t miss it.
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@ Bridget:
Good to know.
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Claire wrote:
Definitey not a Calvinist of any kind. Baxter Kruger is not liked by New-Calvinists, but they have not yet gone after him hard. However, it might only be a matter of time because he is good friends with heretics like Paul Young (author of The Shack), Brad Jersak, John MacMurray, and Steve McVey. Check out his paper on “God in the Hands of Angry Sinners” (I can send the link later if you cannot find it).
With respect to everyone being alive in Christ, Jesus is the creator and sustainer of all creation. That means everything in creation has a relationship with him. Even those whoe are “spiritually dead). I can type more when I get to a real keyboard.
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Claire wrote:
He was defrocked by the RPCGA and the welcomed into Doug Wilson’s Confederation of Reformed Evangelical Churches (CREC) which has since been re-branded as the Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches after Wilson’s views of chattel slavery became widely known. Wilson’s CREC is the Federal Vision/Reconstructionist denomination which welcomes anyone who is willing to pledge allegiance to Wilson, so RC2 being defrocked by the very conservative RPCGA was no problem for the CREC and they ordained him. That bit about pledging allegiance to Wilson *may* be a slight overstatement.
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Ah – I’ve just worked out why all my comments are getting seized by customs. (Hint: fill in the “Name” field, like you’re supposed to on every blog ever.) Anyway:@ Beakerj:
Actually, there’s just a missing “>”.
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Claire wrote:
Here is one link to the info about RC Sproul Jr. being defrocked. A quick Google search will reveal other info).
http://hushmoney.org/RC_Sproul_Jr-defrocking-docs.htm
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Bridget wrote:
I toyed with the idea of creating a new alter-ego called “Everyone”. Didn’t bother in the end, because a “new” commenter takes time to register and the moment might be lost. But you can see where I was going with that.
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Also, I’m on the train. (“We are now approaching Larbert”, as the recorded-message lassie has just said.) This isn’t helping my co-ordination on the laptop trackpad.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I think ‘God’ just suits you, Nick. 🙂
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@ Christiane:
I taught Him everything He knows, of course.
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
Bless him.
Best regards,
God
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@ God:
🙂 LOL
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H.A.or wrote:
Yes, I think that a personality disorder lies at the root of this, though my standard disclaimer is that I am not a psy*. My SWAG is NPD. When I do a thought experiment about what it must have been like to grow up as RC1’s child, I think it must have been very difficult even if RC1 was a good father. That is not an excuse but rather the starting place for an explanation for his behavior. Some of it is simply outrageous, like the drunk driving with children. But other times it was just odd, like some of the weird posts he made after his first wife died.
While I agree that theology is not the cause or cure of abuse, I do think that certain theologies are more likely to enable certain kinds of abusive behaviors. However, abusers are perfectly capable of seizing any system to use as a tool of abuse. It’s what they do.
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I get “haters hate.”
This I know- Truth is fixed, but our apprehension of truth is progressive.
Truth is never based on assumption.
If
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Lisa wrote:
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To our readers
I am so sorry that this thread has become uncomfortable. I feel particularly bad because I was put on bed rest this weekend along with high does steroids to see if my issue with my foot can be respond without surgery. I am doing well but a bit distracted.
The issue of alcoholism is important to me due to the background of my family as well as short term experience working at a substance abuse hospital.
I think that dealing with this issue in the church is difficult and no one solution is perfect. I believe in intervention within families. I also believe in medical care and am very impressed with groups in the community who operate programs to deal with abusers-both Christian and secular.
There is much pain for families who have had to deal with this. That is why it is important that we cut one another some slack in our legitimate emotions and pain.
I have removed a few comments and will be intervening in brining this convo back on track.
Want to thank all of you for contacting me about the issues involved and I will do my best to get the blog revamp done I believe that our plans will make a difference in how things go around her. I apologize to any of you who were hurt in this thread. Alcoholism is tough enough.
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
ROFL
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
LOL. Curious as to how many you have created? And are they all still functioning 😉
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@ Bridget:
You have no idea.
Muwahahahahahaaaaaaaa!
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Blimey, haven’t seen him for a while.
Most of them are typos, to be honest!
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Alter egos? Bah. That’s just the kind of hate I’d expect from this blog full of hating haters.
You’re all rubbish.
Up yours,
Roger Bombast
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Christiane wrote:
You got that right! Everything which might be considered ‘to adjudicate’ we have ways to mess up.
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@ dee:
Mercy, Dee, that foot thing sounds about two levels worse than challenging. Thank God for the milky tears of the poppy, and all its substitutes.
FWIW I see the alcohol issue exactly like you do, except we have not experienced alcoholism in our family. One size does not always fit all. Allowance has to be made for that. You are doing a good thing with these issues.
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Gram3 wrote:
…as Supreme Commander of the future Republic of Gilead.
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okrapod wrote:
My experience with what Game of Thrones calls “milk of poppy” was ten years ago in the hospital for emergency surgery (perforated diverticulitis). They hit me with a shot in ER and I remember feeling loopy for a moment and asking “What was that?”
They answered “Morphine.”
I went “Ah… Concentrated Essence of Opium Poppy.”
Had a few more small-scale shots of it during my time in hospital. No problems on my end, very effective. One of the nurses related how she had no problems with natural opiates but the synthetic ones gave her bad side effects. Had synthetic opiate “pain pills” prescribed upon my release (you should see all the DEA paperwork on the prescription form!) but had no need to use them — ibuprofen worked well enough. Same thing when I broke my wrist on vacation three years ago — filled the opiate prescription, never needed to use it.
ANNOUNCEMENT: I’LL BE ON A TRIP AND AWAY FROM THE INTERNET FOR A WEEK OR TWO STARTING WEDNESDAY. SO DON’T PANIC IF I DISAPPEAR FOR A WHILE. I STAY MOSTLY OFFLINE WHEN I’M ON VACATION TO DECOMPRESS.
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@ Sopwith:
oh Sopy,
so glad to see that wink at the end of your screed 🙂
I’m reading and i think ‘that’s not Sopy’ …. ‘someone is impersonating Sopy’
and then I saw the wink and felt SO relieved 🙂
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
hurry back …. I need your perspective
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Daisy wrote:
Quote-worthy that. Your sense of humor is much needed here.
Yes, a LOT more beer, and whiskey.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I hear you. Depending on what qualifies as ‘surgery’ this latest procedure was my life time twelfth surgery, and during all that they have tried various pain killers, usually for the first couple of days following surgery. Some work, some don’t, some just mostly make you sick, none of them are happy pills by any means.
I got my drain out this morning and asked for a different pain pill; the one I had was too strong so I was not taking it. So, we will see. In my experience I tend to get enormously better when the drains come out-not with either a needle or a pill, synthetic or not. But I have never had ‘severe’ pain, only moderate to moderately severe, so who knows.
I have never had any experience with any narcotic pain med that was anything I would want to repeat, so I really am not sure how people form emotional attachments to pain pills. But then I never thought about it all that much, so I am not passing judgment on those who do. But the surgeon this AM said they try various things with various people and, basically, it is not an exact science. That has been my personal experience.
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Velour wrote:
Both. Through spiritual abuse Sproul has destroyed the Christian faith of not just multiple adults but quite a few children too. Seeing your parents get excommunicated from your church just because they want to attend a different church is bad enough. But seeing your pastor order the congregation to shun your entire family can turn any child into an atheist in short order.
In the case of the John Austin family they attempted to peaceably leave St. Peter Presbyterian Church because they didn’t believe in infant baptism. RC Jr initially told John that he didn’t have to be a paedobaptist in order to join St. Peter, but shortly after joining RC Jr harassed John about paedobaptism. John then wrote RC Jr a letter explaining that they needed to leave St. Peter over those doctrinal differences and join a Baptist church in town. He quickly found out how easy is was to join St. Peter but how hard it was to leave. The Austins weren’t the first who’d tried to get out of St. Peter and then be punished for it, but they were the first to file a complaint with RC Jr’s presbytery.
Like other families before them the Austins got the shunning treatment. RC Jr instructed his church members in “The refraining from all contact with your family by the other families in
our church.” In church meetings that were called over the Austin family situation RC Jr gave specific and detailed examples of how to shun not just John and Julie but in how they were to instruct their own children to shun the Austin children. This conduct was as hateful a thing as we had ever witnessed in a church, and here’s why:
The Austins, like other families who’d heard of RC Jr’s homeschooling full-quiver patriarchy covenant community utopia, relocated there from multiple states away, at great personal expense. They bought a home at the end of a long dirt road specifically because they wanted to be in close fellowship with a number of other St. Peter families also lived on that same isolated dirt road. This was a common practice for St. Peter members — living in close proximity to one another. They ate with one another, had cookouts together, homeschooled together, kids played together, etc. All their friends, and literally most all their next door neighbors, were St. Peter families. So being excommunicated (which never actually happened because RC Jr didn’t have the authority of presbytery to do so, although he lied to his church and told them the Austins were excommunicated) and then ordered to be shunned meant the Austins lost all their friends overnight. Worse yet the Austins 5 children lost not just church friends, they lost their own neighborhood friends. And for what? For merely being the children of their parents.
Just imagine the utter confusion and disillusionment of the 5 Austin children continuing to see all their friends daily, but when they crossed paths with those friends they wouldn’t so much as look at them or utter a word. Amazingly enough the Austin children never did abandon the Christian faith, but that’s only because of the incredible love and faith of John and Julie Austin for their family. They somehow managed to keep it all together. Sadly that cannot be said of a number of other families that RC Jr destroyed with his hateful vindictiveness.
RC Sproul Jr lives under what the Bible describes as surely one of the most severe judgments of God. According to Jesus he would be better off having a millstone tied around his neck and thrown into the sea (Matt 18:6) than having to face the judgment God has in store for him.
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okrapod wrote:
So. Has the medical profession begun to rethink their policies and procedures towards a more humane approach in the use of natural opiates?
Let’s face it, many terminally ill folks are not going to get “better” no matter what new treatment or procedure is tried. So why limit their morphine dosages in their last stages before passing into the big sleep?
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Good for you! Have fun. Hopefully you are going north where it’s cooler!
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__
Revelatory :” SCreeeeeeeeeeeeed?”
Oh! How I love Your Word , Lord! It is my meditation all the day. Your words make me wiser than my deleterious detractors, For You have made Your words even mine. For Your testimonies, Lord, are my meditation all da ding dong day…
hmmm…
Christiane,
“I just want to celebrate, yeah, yeah Another day of living, yeah I just want to celebrate another day of livin’ I just want to celebrate another day of life…
Don’t let it all get you down, no, no Don’t let it turn you around and around and around, no no…” – Rare Earth; https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a5LIDNbFadU
Cuz, Jesus is on His throne!
SKreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch!
And Apostle John, whom Jesus loved, in a moment in time, saw the dead, great and small, stand’in before the Lord’s great throne. And there were open some books, and one of them was the book of life, yeah. And then the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in dem books…
(Whoops…)
Wanna read further? Please sēē your bible for da details…
Thy loving kindness, hum, hum, hum…
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zmq2MYf33iY
ATB
Sopy
😉
—
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Bridget wrote:
No, actually to Pittsburgh and the Gettysburg area.
Not cooler at all, but GREEN.
And the rivers actually have water in them.
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Muff Potter wrote:
As opposed to the DEA and their biggest fans, the Christians?
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Leave your SciFi novels behind, too! 🙂
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Well, that IS something. And, at least a chance of thunderstorms 🙂
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Muff Potter wrote:
I was not aware that terminal patients were being short changed on pain management. My only first hand experience with this has been two cases in both of which hospice told the family that they could do whatever it took to stop the pain but that this would shorten the patient’s life and they needed the family’s permission to do that. In both cases the family agreed, the patients were given large doses of pain killer, became more peaceful and expired shortly after that. RE sat with the families for emotional support while this was done. That is legal and is not technically euthanasia.
I did mention to the oncologist about people who got chemo when there was no chance of further benefit, and they said that some patients insist on everything possible being done up to the last minute. I did not get the impression that it was oncology which was pushing that idea.
In the discussions about the cost of Medicare it has been noted that a huge amount of Medicare money is spent for the last six months of life, and some discussions have been done as to how to deal with that-the useless expenditure of monies when no results can be respected. As one can imagine this is a heated discussion area-that somebody is trying to eliminate grandma-and no progress has been made in this area that I have heard about. Here again, it is apparently not the health care industry which is promoting this idea of treat them until you can’t any more, but rather the patient and their family.
We had some cases of this in the church I left-lying up in Hospice and still on chemo. That certainly is not my personal choice, but until we stop letting patients choose then this will no doubt continue for some people.
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okrapod wrote:
okrapod wrote:
merciful
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Christiane wrote:
That is my opinion.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Ouch! But so true!
I’m reading a book right now on pain, A Nation In Pain, Healing Our Biggest Health Problem, by Judy Foreman. It’s the most comprehensive book of this nature I’ve run across. I picked it up because of what I saw the wife of a pastor friend go through post-knee surgery. Her biggest concern going in wasn’t post-operative pain but becoming addicted to pain meds. Guess what? She found herself an opioid addict within 2 weeks. She tells an awful story of the hellish withdrawals she went through, pretty much like heroin addicts speak of kicking heroin. She says based on her recent research she wishes she’d just smoked pot instead. That was pretty shocking for me to hear, but I could tell she’d done her homework which prompted me to do some research too. From this book I’m learning that weed may in fact be more effective than opioids with no negative side effects and no addiction problems. Doctor prescribed opioid addiction, along with many thousands of annual overdoses, is a health crisis that seems to be aided and abetted by the FDA, DEA, and yes even the church who falls lockstep in behind. There are much safer alternatives to pain management than many prescription meds. But that’s just the problem. The natural ones don’t put money in the pockets of big pharma, so they’ll never get the approval of the regulators. No surprise there. What’s sad though is that many churches have as many pill popping drug addicts in them as outside the church.
There are cases though where opioid addiction shouldn’t even be a concern. I think it was okrapod who mentioned the absurdity of withholding pain meds to terminally ill patients. Totally agree. The entire focus then needs to be on relieving pain and suffering. Drug addiction at that point is irrelevant.
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H.A. wrote:
Sorry. It was Muff Potter (hard sometimes for me to keep straight who said what).
Getting things back on topic, I had a comment held up in moderation for a long time that some readers here will probably miss (apparently having two or more links in a comment throws it into moderation).
See my response to an important RC Jr question byVelour here.
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okrapod wrote:
Mine too.
Two years ago, the Scottish Parliament debated the Assisted Suicide Bill. Assisted suicide, I know, is NOT the same as pain medication for the terminally ill – it’s for the terminally ill who, being of sound mind, expressly and unambiguously want to end their lives. It’s also not the same as euthanasia, whereby the decision is made by someone other than the patient – this was not under discussion. The vote was 82-36 against, but the debate was instructive.
There was a strong public campaign, on both sides of the issue. But the No campaign assumed all Christians must automatically support them. I never saw much discussion in Christian circles. I suppose I can understand this, since scripture clearly sets out the clear example of Jesus:
I’m typing from memory there, but I’m pretty sure that’s how it goes.
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Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
Posted here: http://thewartburgwatch.com/interesting/books-movies-tv-etc/comment-page-1/#comment-330068. The list is not yet visible.
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@ Sopwith:
I can’t stop laughing 🙂
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Christiane wrote:
Sopy, were you one of the editors for the LOL Cat Bible?
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H.A. wrote:
what a terrible story of unkindness to innocent children
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@ okrapod:
Thank you for your kindness. The hardest thing for me is being still since I am a bit on the active side, to put it mildly. I never like it when a specialist tells you that you are his most interesting patient of the day.
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@ okrapod:
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I thought it best to first pose the question to you, since you spent your professional life as a medical doctor.
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@ okrapod:
Just got back from out patient surgery….wish there were a pain med that didn’t make me vomit. So, I always end up taking Advil like meds, and a few glasses of wine. Helps but no panacea.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Have a rest on your vacation. Been to Gettysburg a few times. Lovely area of PA.
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H.A. wrote:
BINGO.
The rest of your comment was right on the money too.
I could elaborate, but it would never get through customs.
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@ Claire:
You might find this (lengthy) article on Assurance helpful.
https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/vox/vol11/calvin_lane.pdf
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H.A. wrote:
Sadly I heard that C.J. Mahaney did that with at least one family that lived next door to them when this father (who was also a leader at Covenant Life Church) questioned one of Mahaney’s actions. This lead to this leader leaving and Mahaney not letting his children play with this leader’s children even though they lived next door. At least in the CLC case it wasn’t like they were isolated out in the country.
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Roger Bombast wrote:
How I needed this. Thanks Roger.
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@ Beakerj:
Bah.
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___
Lolspeak: Blessinz of teh Ceiling Cat be apwn yu, srsly.
hmmm…
Yo! Christiane,
OH HA!
And Happy Cat sed, “Ceiling Kitteh has invisible haus, u gots 2 b borned agen ta sēē it…” – John 3:16; lolcatbible
Sēē youze bible for da com-plete details…
YAhoooooo!
May b 1 day, the entire lolcat Bible will b trans-la-ted!
http://www.lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=Main_Page
ATB
Sopy
😉
—
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Mae wrote:
We seem to have a whole lot of folks familiar with cut and stitch. Sorry to hear you are one. I have not found any great pain meds either. I know that is no help, but what can I say. If all else fails I sometimes have to resort to breathe in, breathe out, time passes and things get better. If I knew any secrets I would share them.
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Roger Bombast wrote:
Balm to my soul you curmudgeonly old article.
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okrapod wrote:
Yes, people do react differently to pain meds. My hubby says pain meds don’t work, they just make him sleep.
I’m also a, “frequent flyer”, in the surgery department. Have also had 7 bone marrow biopsies.
I am used to physical pain as MM affects the bones but still, and I’m sure you’ll agree, there are times I would like to escape it. Wonder if marijuana does really help.
Hope you do feel significantly better now that drain has been removed.
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@ Lowlandseer:
There is also this from Calvin’s Institutes (see https://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.v.iii.html):
Sorry for the length, but the context is important. I understand this to mean that God gives to some of the damned the experience of faith only so he can judge them harder, and that if one doubts their salvation then they probably don’t have electing faith. To me, this is a bunch of word salad to basically say no one can be assured of their salvation in Calvinism. The paper you cited touches on this a bit, but not as fully as Calvin expressed it.
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__
Heaven’s Helping: “He’s Really Got Da Whole Wide World In His Hands?”
hmmm…
Dee,
You are our mostz interesting blog queen of da day!
ATB
Sopy
__
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gAzBOGA2JPA
😉
—
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Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
Which should be enough for critically thinking folks to steer clear of this aberrant faith! I hear a lot about New Calvinists being intellectual, so why aren’t they smarter than that?!
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Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
What in the world does this mean? The Holy Spirit can make a mistake then?
. . . according to Calvin anyhow.
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Bridget wrote:
It’s one thing to read what the YRRs write about. It’s quite another to go to their source – the actual writings of Calvin. This is not a problem just for the New Calvinists. The old Calvinists draw from the same source.
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Mae wrote:
This gets worse by the minute. I had forgotten what you said before about your conditions. Daggone anyhow. I don’t know about marijuana, but there are those who believe it has medicinal uses including pain relief. My official position is: no comment.
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@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
I have read about Calvin and I bit of The Institutes. I can only stomach so much of The Institutes. Some parts are either the rantings of a genius or a madman. I tend toward the latter of the two. Or, someone who believes he is the mouthpiece of God.
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Bridget wrote:
He was a lawyer. 🙂
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Julie Anne wrote:
Good luck with that. I know the story too. All of it, and I have the documents. But okrapod already cautioned me about the inadvisability of viewing even this blog as a safe place. I’m sure he’d say the same and even more of your blog, and based on what I’ve seen of the treatment several whistleblowers have received on your blog I’d have to agree. Some of those who claim to offer a safe place for the victims of spiritual abuse can be very selective about who they’ll offer sanctuary to and who they’ll denounce.
There are additional RC Sproul Jr abuses that do need to be brought out in the open. Why? For one reason only: to prevent him from ever returning to “ministry” to be given an opportunity to engage in more spiritual abuse. Being defrocked in 2006 should have been enough to make that happen. His Ashley Madison scandal should have been enough. The drunk driving felony conviction should have been enough, but it probably won’t be and I explained why here:
H.A. wrote:
RC Jr has left us no other option but to keep turning up the heat in the kitchen until he gets out and stays out for good.
One particular scandal I know of would be considered by most people even more outrageous than his driving drunk. It too involves kids. If I were to divulge it here I’m reasonably confident it would even convince Velour that he needs to be thrown out of his church (not that I particularly care one way or the other about his church membership status). But it’s inherently such a touchy subject that it must be handled prudently and with great care.
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@ H.A.:
The pendulum is swinging the other way on pain meds to the point where people who need them will have trouble getting them (although anyone in hospice should be able to get the medication they need-that’s sort of the point).
There was an interesting podcast the other day talking about a letter to the editor that was basically that people with pain being treated in hospitals didn’t tend to get addicted that supposedly opened the floodgates. With all the context getting lost, as doctors learnes genetically that opioids were safe even though there were huge issues with the data regardless (poor tracking post hospital stay).
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okrapod wrote:
My personal secret: If a pill causes auditory hallucinations, go sit by yourself. Inform the doctor that you are allergic to it. Wait five years before telling your family what the little voices were instructing you to do. (Flippant but serious.)
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@ dee:
Just take care of yourself!
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okrapod wrote:
Ha. I’m rather skeptical on that one, but open to hard data. It certainly has medicinal uses, don’t know about pain.
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H.A. wrote:
As I was working on a post for a series of blog posts on spiritual abuse based on my friend, Pastor Ken Garrett’s dissertation (I think if you click on my name, you can see the current post), H.A.’s comment about how RC2 handled this family AND also got the church involved, reminded me of Ken’s definition of a cult:
The bolded part especially resonated with me. Our family, too, was shunned, and I find it to be one of the most insidious forms of spiritual abuse. It is absolutely cruel. This is key in identifying cults: look how members are treated!
RC2 is surely a cult leader.
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Gram3 wrote:
Who was pulled out of seminary by his father and forced into that career.
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Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
Which is why they keep trying to prove to themselves that they really are Elect/Saved. Whether that proof is getting rich, getting in power, or perfectly parsing their theology. All desperate attempts to prove they’re really Elect (and more important, You’re NOT!)
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Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
This is truly obscene and has no redeeming social value.
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Roger Bombast wrote:
Humbug.
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Friend wrote:
I can only imagine.
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Muff Potter wrote:
Sounds like something out of Greek mythology . A twisted, vengeful god having the last laugh at mortal man.
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Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
Calvin probably had Servetus in mind when he wrote that.
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Mae wrote:
Their god has way more in common with the gods of Egypt and the gods of the Canaanites. The God of Abraham isn’t anything like their god.
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Muff Potter wrote:
I don’t think they believe in the Holy Trinity in the same way as othodox Christian people ….. they speak of ‘God’ as separate from the ‘Son’
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@ Christiane:
orthodox 🙂
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@ Christiane:
And the Holy Spirit is hardly acknowledged.
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@ Muff Potter:
For sure.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Nails hit on the head….
Word salads obscuring the intellectual doubts
And
The doubts producing mega insecurities in behaviors.
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__
The Fruit Of An Elaborate Deception: “John Calvin like Augustine before him, was guilty of laying hold of the ‘shadow’ rather than the ‘substance’ of God’s Holy Word. ”
hmmm…
Let the reader understand that Calvin had the mind of a steel trap. Therefore, once you accepted any premise of his systematic religious conviction, he has you! There is no escape. Like any good lawyer, accepting his premise, you are captured by his elaborate arguments. The unfortunate thing is that John Calvin spent his whole religious career defending Augustine’s faulty premises, and not scripture. In essence Calvin was captured by Augustine’s elaborate premises, thus buying hook, line, and sinker the foundation of his convincing, but false arguments.
huh?
Let the reader recall that false prophets were among God’s people in the documented scriptural past. Holy Scripture warns us that false teachers will be among us as well. They will bring their own elaborate destructive teachings. They will abuse, and misconstrue the word of God for there own motives –ultimately denying the words of the One who was clearly sent to save them. It has been foretold that many people will follow them in the elaborate religious premises of their clever arguments and will cause others to disrespect the purity of God’s truth.
What?
Don’t let them use good-sounding religious arguments to exploit you.
(Please sēē your bible for details…)
ATB
Sopy
___
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zmq2MYf33iY
😉
—
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@ Mae:
it’s almost as though the ‘god of wrath’ neo-Cals are coming out of some non-trinitarian cult model rather than classic Calvinism
if they were, then it would make more sense what they are up to and also how they ‘word’ discussions about ‘God’ and ‘Jesus’ without indication any trinitarian relationship between the two Persons …. and you are right: no Holy Spirit (they don’t mention him, do they?)
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Walter Martin, author of “The Kingdom of the Cults,” defined a cult as a group centered around the (false) teachings of one man or woman. Mormonisn, Joseph Smith. JW s, Charles Taze Russell. “Christian” science, Mary Baker Eddy. And so on. The other thing that defines a pseudochristian cult, according to Martin, is the denial of the full deity of Christ as well as the doctrine of the trinity. “Having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof.”
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This quote from near the top of the article cited by Centralbeltprophet:
Calvin’s understanding of the phrase “one word” seems to’ve differed from mine.
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Christiane wrote:
The Trinity has been denied, defined, redefined, since the beginning. Affirming, believing in the Trinity is still an issue today. Some heresies never seem to die.
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Christiane wrote:
You might find this interesting.
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/jesus-god
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StillWiggling wrote:
As I’ve said before and often, defining CULT entirely in terms of theology and doctrine, NOT abusive control-freak behavior towards their people. OK for the Shepherd to slaughter and devour his sheep as long as his Theology and Doctrine are correct.
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Christiane wrote:
Calvin Islamized the Reformation, and the neo-Cals are its ISIS.
More Calvinist than Calvin.
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Mae wrote:
Zeus when Hera was really henpecking him and he had to take it out on mortals.
The only one of the Olympian Gods I can respect would be Athena; she always seemed the most “grown-up” of any of them. Maybe being a personification of Wisdom had something to do with it.
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okrapod wrote:
oh boy …. this guy is FAR from orthodox in his Christology and I can see how it might affect also his concept of the Trinity
He’s working on a variation of some of the early heresies, yes, only he is patching stuff together to form his ‘own thing’
so this is what neo-Cals are reading as serious theology these days?
explains much, sadly
but to bring this kind of thing into the SBC inside the trojan horse of stealth neo-Cal-ism????
the orthodox tradition of ‘Who Christ Is’ and the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity, once you have departed from it, will take you into the various cults that have arisen that are non-trinitarian,
so maybe my original idea was not so far from possibility ….
I’ll take the orthodox teachings over William Craig Lane’s logic, yes. I would like to know Ken F.’s thoughts about this man’s Christology, especially Craig Lane’s apparent difficulty with the concept of Our Lord ‘assuming’ our humanity to Himself. In all I have so far read, Craig Lane hasn’t mentioned that we were originally make in the image of God …. I’ll keep reading.
THANK YOU for the link!
I always wondered what forms Christology and the concept of the Holy Trinity might take IF a person was not grounded in the orthodox genesis of those teachings…. and yes, I realize that the Orthodox faith sees how the Spirit is sent forth differently. This William Craig Lane link is a glimpse into that world. It’s not comforting, no. (sigh)
VERY interesting stuff!
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__
“Calvin’s Conundrum?”
hmmm…
John Calvin profoundly believed that every elect person’s salvation was pre-determined by God Himself before the foundation of the world.
huh?
Since Divine select election determination is in the mind of God alone and not humanly knowable, each individual subscriber of John Calvin’s religious systematic convictions, is left with the unknowable; hence left in the balance with absolutely no concrete assurance of salvation.
What?
Let the reader truly understand that solid ‘Assurance Of Salvation’ is only one of God’s ‘faithful promises’ given to Christians. Four other important examples can be classified as: promises of answered prayer, victory over sin, forgiveness, and divine guidance. Whew!
(I kid you not!)
All in this short profound New Testament book?
SKreeeeeeeeeeeeeetch!
The Bible New Testament focuses on the believers ‘relationship’ with Jesus and affirms their salvation, of which ‘foundational assurance’ is a very important and integral part for new and mature believer’s walk alike.
In conclusion, the Bible is a good source for an initial understanding, and also as a follow-up and refresher of the essence and the meat of Christ’s salvation. (1)
(sēē your bible for details…)
…this is my story, this is my song, hum, hum, hum…(1)
ATB
Sopy
___
Select Ref(s): (1) John 5:24; John 6:47; 1 John 5:12-13
(1) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QY00uCF9kUk
😉
—
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Christiane wrote:
No, it’s straight from Calvin. In many religious traditions there are adherents who do not know or do not believe in everything that tradition teaches. There are many kind and gracious Calvinists who are that way because they are kind and gracious people, not because they are Calvinists. If they were to truly follow the beliefs and practices of Calvin then they would no longer be kind and gracious. Just my somewhat informed thoughts.
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Christiane wrote:
Whatever you think of William Lane Craig’s Christology, he in not a neocal. He has been one of the more influential voices against Calvinism.
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Christiane wrote:
Craig’s logic is pretty airtight and persuasive, but in making it airtight he seems to have smothered the life out of it. His arguments start with a singular “simple” god (per arguments voiced by Thomas Aquinas) and then he tries to find a way to bolt the concept of trinity onto that model. But it doesn’t fit well. It would work better if he started with Trinity. But who am I to challenge someone of his academic background?
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Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
well, I respect your opinion and I can see right through him which is not too hard to do
thanks for weighing in, Ken …. I do consider you a scholar worthy of respect, yes
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@ Sopwith:
love it! LOL
🙂
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Beakerj wrote:
Beaker J,
Was that really necessary?
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One of the reasons I like this website is that most everyone has been through the ringer or it is wringer at some time.
I just got out of the hospital 8 days ago.I am on two immunosuppressant drugs for severe Psoraisis. I had a badly infected toe.With diabetes not good. I was given an antibiotic and we then left Colorado to go to Long Beach CA to see children. By the time we hit Las Vegas I was too sick to go on. We turned around went home and to the ER. Wonderful Catholic hospital. Well I was in complete kidney failure, aka as acute renal failure, or acute kidney injury. They saved my life. Said the kidneys had shut completely down. All because of an antibiotic that reacted to methotrexate. I thought I had a really bad flu.My wife insisted on going to ER. Didnt buy flu theory. Could it have been the Holy Spirit talking to her?
I am having a very hard time emotionally with all this. Am so aware of God’s goodness but I can’t get my head around such an episode. My kidneys have recovered, But the specialist says I suffered a major trauma. I say I feel like I have been stomped by an elephant. I was given oxycodone but refuse to take it. Too addicting.
The people at my SBC church were truly Christian during this episode to both me and my wife. It has changed how I see these “unremarkable” people.
I must not be very creative spiritually or either in a complete rut. Being from the deep south and still being southern baptist 63 years later. My church is not calvinist and they are aware of stealth calvinism. Our church is half black and our pastor is black. Yes the SBC has changed alot.
God is so good but having a bad time. We are not going to try and repeat trip to
california.
Sincerely Jeff
Ps I would take my issues any day over Sprouls Jr. How can a Christian hurt so many people?
How can Christians allow him to get away with it?
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@ Jeff:
will pray for you in your trouble …. get rest and build up strength slowly …. I hope you recover fully but it sounds like you will need to be careful and take it easy …. God Bless!
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Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
He was answering a question from a Muslim, and he did it in text book apologetic style-starting where the other person is, not where you are. That is one of the most difficult things about apologetics, or so it seems to me. And one of the most essential things.
And the doctrine of the trinity, or most specifically ontological christology which can be seen as complicating at best and dividing at worst the divine reality, is a far distance from the Muslim concept that God has no Son because it inescapably makes the Son divine.
One of the things I like about Dr. Craig is that wherever he starts he is not ashamed or afraid to dive into what he knows are troubled waters given the other person’s assumptions and beliefs. Gutsy guy in my opinion.
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Ken P. wrote:
Yes. I think he is excellent in dealing with some typical Calvinist ideas while delineating how far and no farther one can go with some idea.
Obviously I am a huge fan of Dr. Craig. He is rain on my desert from having listened to way too much mindlessness in the name of Christianity over the years.
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Christiane wrote:
It may or may not have been ‘necessary’ but it certainly was accurate. There is way too much condescension poorly disguised as compassion going on, not just in this case but also with various other people who seem to hit and run with some variation of a pat on the head.
God forgive me the many times that I just want to smack somebody up side the head when they try that garbage.
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@ Jeff:
Oh, gracious. I hear you. That is scary. On the upside, you wife is a real winner in insisting on the ER. God was right that it was not good for Adam to be alone-we all need people who care enough to take charge and get things done.
We have been dealing with strong meds at our house in the treatment of psoriasis and psoriatic arthritis (my daughter) and on top of that some endocrinologist insisted that she take metformin even though she is not diabetic (but is post-menopausal PCOS and they are doing that now)) such that she had constant diarrhea and vomiting from the meds and now her rheumatologist has identified nutritional deficiencies in D3 and B12 which will take at minimum 6 months and perhaps the rest of her life to deal with-apparently due to the meds tearing up her gut.
We are running a veritable convalescent hospital at our house. May I say both as a professional and as a patient-it ain’t over till it’s over. Not by a long shot. But it sure can get difficult. God be with you.
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@ Jeff:
Jeff…..sorry you’ve been so critically ill. Had something very similar happen to me year or so ago.
Never would have thought I’d find myself in such an emotionally fragile position because of physical trauma, but it happened.
Happy to read your church family was a blessing. There are still good churches, and loving folks out there….thank the Lord.
Hoping you continue on with a complete recovery.
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okrapod wrote:
You respond to his ‘logic’, I think. It’s what turns me off, but it does reveal to me something I had wondered about:
IF post-reformation folks were really ‘sola Scriptura’, how would they handle the questions of ‘Who Christ is’ and ‘Is there a Trinity and what is it’s nature?’
It seems more honest for post-Reformation people to seek out the answers themselves USING ‘the bible’, rather than to say ‘oh, we accept the teachings of the early Church councils’.
It’s revealing. And interesting.
I don’t find Craig to be a theologian who is ‘creative’ so much as one who picks through the bones of the early heresies and re-examines them using sacred Scripture as ‘proofs’.
Problem for me is that the ‘Bible’ IS a result of those Councils. I would have more respect for Craig IF he were to go even further back into Church history and question and re-examing everything about how the Councils settled on the CANON. Now there’s a place for a ‘fresh start’ ….. the early Councils dismissed a lot …. but did they get it right???
I mean if folks want to challenge the Councils and the Creeds, then by all means go for it, but it defies logic to accept the ‘canon’ and not the ‘creeds’ …. at some point, a re-examination must have integrity ….
does this make (any) sense? 🙂
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okrapod wrote:
Not alone in that gut reaction!
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Christiane….sorry, not your quote, responding to okrapod’s response to you.
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Mae wrote:
I am not surprised by your comment, no.
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@ okrapod:
@ Christiane:
OKRAPOD, you may find this interesting. I did. 🙂
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hz2SOvr_b0
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Christiane wrote:
Not to me. The writings which people call the Bible are the product of Apsotles, and some others apparently, from waaaay before the councils. The writings of the apostles would still be authoritative even if there had been no councils.
And I think that the protestant idea of sola scripture may not be exactly what it appears to be to someone coming from a Catholic viewpoint. I see two major areas where difficulty in understanding the other viewpoint may be operative.
One is that this is protestantism we are talking about, and protestantism is highly varied if not in basic principles then certainly in understanding and nuance. Protestantism as protestantism has a very different view of what the church is than Catholicism has; it does not see the same idea of authority in the church that Catholicism sees. So when protestants and catholics look at the early creeds they do so from a different perspective. A protestant may well think that some or even all of the statements in the creeds are correct, while not thinking that they are correct because the Church said so but rather because they are correct for the same reasons that the Church said so in the first place. Agreement with some or all statements without agreement on authority.
The other problem with understanding what the other person is thinking, and I could be mistaken here, is in just what the idea of sola scriptura means. Here again, this covers a range of ideas. For some people it means that if the Bible does not tell you to brush your teeth then you need to lay off the teeth brushing. For most people it means that in matters of faith and practice the scripture is sufficient (all you need) for salvation and trustworthy in what it says. The guys who signed off on the Chicago statement do not accept the limitations of that and wanted the scripture to be more in the tooth brushing business, and that is why they wrote what they wrote-because most protestants are far less radical in their thinking about what sola scriptura means. The very fact that the Chicago people did that is evidence that enough people disagreed with them to be a cause for concern for the Chicago thinking folks.
That said, Dr. Craig and all the others like him, are under no constraints to argue solely from scripture, but they are under constraints to present no arguments which can be disproved by scripture. He is under no constraints to refrain from seeing truths in the early creeds nor does seeing truths in the creeds compel him to accept every word in some creed based on an idea of authority apart from scripture. And, let me repeat once again, there are some creedal statements which many? most? all? protestants understand differently in some way from some Catholic ideas about those same statements.
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okrapod wrote:
This makes sense to me. But I suppose I am a Protestant, in some sense of the word, just because I am not a Catholic. I prefer to be simply a Believer in God.
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okrapod wrote:
I think there is much connection in the Church to the concept that the sacred Scriptures contain what is necessary for a person to be able to come to Christ and salvation
This is seen as a part of the power that is in the sacrament of sacred Scripture …. what MAKES it ‘sacred’:
‘Only in silence the Word’
“Only in silence can the word of God find a home in us …… with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, the word of God can find a welcome in our hearts.”
(Verbum Domini)
I think though, in the Church, the sacred Scriptures become for us a part of the liturgy where ‘authentic’ listening is encouraged and becomes a part of active worship.
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Mae wrote:
Vouch.
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Christiane wrote:
Yes. I and my new bunch think that way also.
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@ Christiane:
Thanks, I will check that out- I don’t have a whole half hour until this afternoon. But careful there, you might fall into this man’s trap also if you listen to his stuff. (wink)
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@ Christiane:
Sorry Christiane, I felt that this time it was.
A) to reflect back the patronising nature of that & other comments (which Dee has now removed)which sounded very christian but…
and
B) please notice the blame shifting in the response – the problem was not her behaviour on the thread, instead it was me being ‘triggered’. Which I wasn’t particularly. Or of I was, it wasn’t by the alcohol element. This was not the first thread I’ve felt uncomfortable on when this commenter has taken control of the thread, it’s just the first time I’ve spoken up.
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Christiane wrote:
‘Authentic” listening can happen anywhere and anytime. It is the responsibility of the individual to do this. One can sit in the midst of a worship service, be encouraged until the cows come home, but manage not to listen.
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@ Beakerj:
I do agree with BeakerJ on her comment. We have worked to resolve this behind the scenes. Sadly, Velour refuses to speak with me. In other words, she has no idea what I was going to say since we have yet to discuss this comment thread.
As many of you know, I care deeply for people who have been hurt. With that comes an understanding that hurt sometimes expresses itself in less than ideal ways and can end up hurting others as well.
Communication is tricky when pain is involved. I am learning day by day and should have it down pat by the time I am 100 years old!! Just like we should never allow our theology to prevent us from showing love to others, we should never permit our personal pain from allowing us to care about others who view things differently than we do.
Velour has a tremendous capacity to care for other people. I am hoping this blip in the road will not prevent her from learning how to do so in the complicated communication network of the internet. It is my hope she will speak directly with me and maybe grow from this experience.
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@ Beakerj:
I love the Proverb that states Like one who takes a dog by the ears is he who meddles in a quarrel not his own… but, to some extent, we who call ourselves Wartburgers are all mutually responsible. So, like an idiot, here I go.
Well, I’m not going very far TBH, but I didn’t blame you for posting some kind of response there. I didn’t get the impression you were acting out, were hurt, found the thread subject matter difficult or painful, or otherwise were calling out for help. I’m not privy to anyone’s innermost thoughts, but it bothers me (along with others who’ve commented to similar effect) to see how often “you’re hurt” is used in such a way that it has the effect of an ad hominem.
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@ Beakerj:
I’m sorry for mentioning it. I didn’t think. But a lot of the people here are unkind to someone who IS kind and caring. People don’t give each other enough slack sometimes, but honestly when certain issues are being discussed (ie. ‘alcoholics’), then we need to be ready for some emotional engagement and venting …..
I have ‘stories’ to share. But I don’t. I see us all as having ‘stories’ and in our frustrations with one another, come some clues as to how those stories have impacted us. Does that make sense?
I think we can all do better, me included. I’m sorry. My tone was rude. I’m upset for Velour. I think she’s been hurt. She didn’t deserve the pile-on, no. My opinion. Have a great day!
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dee wrote:
AMEN AMEN AMEN
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dee wrote:
Thank you dee. I appreciate it.
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dee wrote:
Correct on both counts, Dee. At risk of repeating myself, this has been a strange thread. But Velour is represented by other threads and other contributions.
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Bridget wrote:
The liturgy involves ‘corporate’ worship where people are actively engaged. It is a bit different from the more passive worship services of some denominations who don’t have a formal liturgy, I suppose.
I love the saying: ‘in the silence the Word’ because you are right that we can be alone and have an encounter with sacred Scripture in many settings and it can be a powerful experience. It happened to someone over on SBCvoices who told of how he was converted in a hotel room when, for some reason, he picked up a Gideon Bible and turned randomly to a portion of it and what he read seared him to the core and he was impacted spiritually ….. I believed him. It happens to many people. And I think it is providence at its best, an outpouring of grace into our pain that is healing. So, ‘in silence the Word’ speaks to me as a phrase that I can relate to. 🙂
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@ Christiane:
Never never fear bringing it up with me if you think I’m in the wrong, because I probably am. I am not the remotest bit hurt by this & I didn’t think you were being rude or unfair. I also think Velour is a very caring person & I hope she’s not too hurt, & will come back to commenting. we share a huge amount in working for the safety of young people in our communities. But you can be caring in one direction whilst missing something else you’re doing that is not helpful,. In this case I felt she was smothering other commenters & acting as the morality Police as I posted & mentioned to Dee. It had just gone too far.
If there’s one thing I’ve learned at TWW it is to be more cautious about language backed up with religious words & statements, & what sneaks in under that cover whilst looking, to me, like something else entirely. It had the feel of a personal crusade, not a discussion or even a disagreement, with equals.
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I agree that Velour can be a loving and caring person. I also agree with what Berkerj has said above so I won’t elaborate on any of it.
I disagree with your statement below and if you believe this, would you please give specific examples of what you believe this unkindness is?
I honestly don’t see a lot of people being unkind to anyone. I see unkindness occasionally, but not often, and it usually gets worked out. I see miscommunication that usually gets worked out as well.
It would be helpful for you to clarify since “a lot of people” would seem to encompass most of people who post on this blog.
Christiane wrote:
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Bridget wrote:
Possibly the best typo ever 🙂
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Beakerj wrote:
Comedy gold from the Two Ronnies would be appropriate here…
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Bridget wrote:
Bah. You’re all rubbish.
Up yours,
Roger Bombast
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Always appropriate!
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@ Beakerj:
They’re both sadly missed…
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Yes they are 🙁
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Bridget wrote:
Helpful how?
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Roger Bombast wrote:
I love this! 🙂
you get it ….. LOL
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Bridget wrote:
Those are YOUR words. You own them.
Assuming is one thing. But when you ask someone to explain YOUR assumption, then you’ve problem.
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Christiane wrote:
Then, what does “a lot” mean to you?
What it means to me is a large percentage – over 5O%. That’s my thinking. Your definition is obviously different based on your comment to me.
And the point being can you clarify, by example, the “a lot” of commenters that are unkind to Velour. To me, it is a very loaded statement.
Christiane wrote:
So I (and maybe others) can understand what you believe is unkind. As I stated, I don’t see that much unkindness.
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Christiane wrote:
I have been thoroughly converted to a liturgical worship style, but I don’t see the difference as being between active and passive. Personally for me standing, kneeling, standing again, keeling again, making hand motions, bowing, walking up to the rail, kneeling again, standing again-none of that is anything either spiritual or cognitive to me-merely going through the motions. It is not worship for me. It is not wrong, it does keep you from falling asleep, but it in no way keeps my mind from wandering.
What I like about liturgy is how much can be packed into 50 minutes (Catholic) or 75 minutes (us) and the rapid pace of the service and the fact that there is a church Kalendar with an organizational scheme that requires covering an enormous amount of stuff during the year, and the fact that the readings and the prayers are quality stuff-not just praying ‘if it be your will’ and preaching for three Sundays on one biblical phrase somewhere between the semicolon and the comma of some bible verse. And I must say that I converted to a love of liturgy over at the Catholic church, and they are more sedentary in their mass than we are.
But in all fairness I did not find old style Baptist worship services to be remotely passive, nor do I need ecclesial gymnastics to stay awake. If some do I will gladly participate for their sakes. For me, though. at some level, it feels rather pretentious and sometimes I have to remind myself that as far as we know God is not offended by this sort of thing, and I am thinking that given the complexity of creation at some level God is really good with the complex and the fancy. But I still struggle with it a bit.
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Beakerj wrote:
Ha! Glad you enjoyed! Typing via phone pad creates no end of typos . . .
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okrapod wrote:
One of the most beautiful services I ever attended was a candlelight funeral service for a friend of my daughters and it was at a Baptist Church where she had attended since a child. Everything was done with reverence and with attention to comforting the family. I was very moved. My daughter was devastated and she also thought the service was beautiful.
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@ Bridget:
Bridget wrote:
Yes, it IS your thinking.
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Beakerj wrote:
Same for me. I didn’t comment publicly up to now, but I recently corresponded with Dee, and I do want to thank her publicly for the way she and Deb handle the many roles played by this site–investigation, education, support and comfort, community. It’s a lot to juggle.
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okrapod wrote:
I wonder if any were like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyrUhdBHOg8
‘sacred harp’ singing is being revived in our country, thank God
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Bridget wrote:
I realize that
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@ Christiane:
That is so pretty; not bad for a bunch of hard shell baptists who are not only calvinists of a kind but more conservative than most calvinists. But the Appalachians are a wondrous place-both sides of the mountain.
But no I have never heard that done in person, but I have seen music written that way. There was not a lot of that in the urban Louisville Baptist churches of my youth, though, just a lot of seminary professors ‘filling the pulpit’ right much and other pastors coming to do revivals (evangelistic services) a couple of weeks a year. For SBC ‘it was the best of times…’ but it is gone now. The Spirit seems to have taken Himself over to the folks across the street.
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Christiane wrote:
It seems you are dancing around Bridget’s question and instead putting it back on her. What does “a lot” mean to you? Those are your words.
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@ okrapod:
Our community chorus has done shape note hymns. We took some of them on tour to France and Italy. It is tremendously fun and uplifting to sing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AD1Yq37Nc88
This isn’t us, but it’s the one of the songs we do.
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@ Julie Anne:
‘a lot’ mean ‘a lot’ in my thinking, Julie Anne
one would have been enough, but it took off, didn’t it?
I’ve seen this happen once before. The usual suspects. It’s never pretty. Trouble with a ‘pile on’ is that there is a synergy at work in them collectively, which makes the intent seem much more negative …. it would be an interesting phenomenon except that someone is hurt
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westerner wrote:
Shape-note sacred harp singing is apparently an American invention in the New England states first and then down into the Appalachians. It was wonderful for the country Churches that had no organs or pianos. It is being revived and is now big in Ireland of all places.
This is one of my favorites:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zRMz3bonY8
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Christiane wrote:
Likely, the people who have been quiet in the past out of respect for their hostesses, but finally got pushed enough to respond.
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Lea wrote:
I do worry that it means this. Christiane, when Velour does get on a bit of a roll, how does one ask her to reconsider? In a way that will be taken kindly? She won’t pick up the phone to Dee, even, & this is her blog. Velour exhorts others to rethink, but I honestly don’t see her being genuinely open to others asking her to do the same.
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Christiane wrote:
And the pity party begins again, this time by proxy.
“Self-pity is easily the most destructive of the nonpharmaceutical narcotics; it is addictive, gives momentary pleasure and separates the victim from reality.”
John W. Gardner
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The way you can see if a comment. thread has gotten off course is to look back at the original post. Is this still about the post or has it become about a commenter.
I believe most people do a great job posting on this blog. It misquote common for things to go off the rails a bit. That is when we need to reign it in.
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Gram3 wrote:
About six years ago, a close relative got a second DUI. One of the many things s/he had to do was attend a group talk (with a relative) about family dynamics and addiction. The counselor was very specific that one has to deal with the primary addiction FIRST, before anything else can be addressed. When an alcoholic is drinking, no emotions are processed, no insights are available. The personality disorder or destructive behaviors can’t be addressed until the person is clean/straight/sober and able to reflect about and think about his/her destructive behavior.
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I have a question here. A few months ago I was diagnosed as being a Type 2 Diabetic. Diabetes run in my family. But I also am addicted to carbs. I guess you could say I’m a carboholic. Diabetes is a true disease, as well as drug addiction, or alcoholism. Are you going to ask me to leave the church because I’m a diabetic who is addicted to carbs? I’m really struggling with this. I gave up drinking Mountain Dews, 9 weeks ago. After drinking at least one a day for about 40 years, this has been hard to do. I’m sure many would say my eating habits have been self harmful, which they have been. I’ve hidden a lot of them from the world. Maybe you don’t know that as a plus size woman I struggle deeply with body image, and other things. Maybe you don’t know that I have often used food as a way to medicate the pain of all my medical problems. Maybe it’s because no one asked me. Or no one asked the woman that say beside me in church when they saw her taking an Opiate pain pill if she is a drug addict, instead they shunned her. When in reality she lives in chronic pain and the opiates she takes help her deal with her chronic pain enough to get out to church. Maybe no one thought to ask the lady in church that has looked really sad lately what’s wrong. She’s drinking alcohol because of the terrible things she goes thru in her marriage. No one even know’s she an alcoholic. She hides it well.I could clearly be a drug addict after all the surgeries I’ve had (over 45), but I’m not. I could clearly be an alcoholic too, but I’m not. My drug of choice is caffeine. It’s not that good for me either. But me and Diet Cokes go hand and hand. My point here is that maybe there are alcoholics who read this blog, maybe there are drug addicts, and I’m sure there are a lot of diabetics too. We support each other, we don’t tear each other down. We uplift them in the name of Christ. We encourage each other. We pray for each other. FYI – for those that need to know, Velour is out of town working for her job. I know this for a fact.
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Harley wrote:
thank you for sharing this information about Velour
BTW …. to help with those carb cravings, try adding more protein in small amounts throughout the day (boiled eggs, beef roll-ups, chunks of chicken breast, etc)
and try some grapefruit juice also with the protein feedings ….. it helps some, yes
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Harley wrote:
Harley, in case you missed it:
Dee wrote:
This article is about RC Sproul Jr. His alcoholism, driving drunk with kids in the car and getting arrested for it, etc. is the topic of the thread. Yes, Velour did derail it for a good long while. Dee stepped in to get it re-railed. And now you want to derail it again, but this time make it about carb addiction? Please spare us.
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@ Harley:
Harley – the quick answer is that no-one should be being asked to leave the church WITHOUT GOOD REASON & ONLY FOR A TIME. That specific answer was specific to Sproul Jnr & no-one else, let alone your average struggling Christian. He’s a clearly unrepentant man who has caused havoc in his own church, which is not acceptable. That doesn’t mean at all that Christians who love him shouldn’t love & care for him at this time, just that pastoring is not appropriate for him right now.
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I was arrested for drunk driving about 25 years ago. I was stopped for a traffic light violation on a Friday night around 8 PM. I was drinking some wine before I went to a sports event and had put some wine with ice in a coffee mug to drink some more after the game. (I had no idea that was illegal.) I had been using wine for a short time for a purpose – I was going through a difficult divorce and wine made me feel braver when I had to talk to my powerful/controlling ex-husband about issues.
But then, I began to drink even when I didn't have to talk to him. I was never around any alcohol growing up in our Christian home or in my Christian college. I had been out of college and working 20+ years when this drinking started.
The night I was arrested, the police in that very small town did not have a breath-tester. I was handcuffed and driven to a small hospital in a different small town and was given a blood test. I was .10 which was the exact amount to have a DUI in my state at that time. It is now .08. My car was impounded. The police officers drove me back to the police station and told me to call someone for a ride. I refused to call anyone. I was so ashamed; I did not want anyone to know. They told me I was free to go, and they let me go. So, I walked home 9 miles in the dark in the country side on back roads, arriving at home around 2 am.
My family still does not know about this arrest and very few friends do. Drinking is not allowed in my church circles. I was afraid for my job. Because the arrest was not in the county where I lived, it was not in our local paper and I am forever grateful for that part. I had to go to court, lost my license for 90 days (except to drive to work), got points on my license, had to attend a Friday-Sunday (locked in a motel) session for DUI offenders.
On that Sunday I was told that I was an alcoholic and was in denial because I hid my drinking. I was then further ordered to attend AA 3 times a week for 3 months. I attended faithfully. I refused to speak at any meetings. I signed in, listened, and left. I attended meetings in places far away from where I lived so I would not see anybody I knew. My license was then reinstated. I was so ashamed and embarrassed.
I believe the counselors thought I was in denial because I hid the wine. I hid it because I did not want my children to know because I was a "good Christian" mom and was against drinking. Yes, I was a hypocrite. To this day I still reject their claim that I am an alcoholic. I know myself better than strangers did. I was binge drinking and knew why.
I occasionally drink now, but never like 25 years ago. I still look around the store when I buy any alcohol for fear someone from church will see me. I will rather go to a drive-through. I would be rejected by some friends if caught. Not sure why I am even telling my secret story here, except that it seems to apply a little bit for what to do with a DUI, plus I can be anonymous among fellow Christians who I have grown to trust (thank you, WW) even though I don't know any of you.
I carry this burden and it rears its ugly head sometimes. I often wonder if my church ever found out if I would be disciplined. I wish I could just say, yes….I do drink sometimes.
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Berkerj wrote:
Exactly. And that is where this thread was taken off track thinking the put out meant for all Christians who are alcoholics. It was a response about RC2 based on his decades of chronic abuse, the least of which is alcoholism.
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@ Julie Anne:
@ Berkerj:
And this has been reiterated repeatedly by several commenters.
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Berkerj wrote:
Indeed. And it does sound as if his problems with alcohol were not limited to having a few too many drinks before bedtime. He was encouraging bad behavior at church, possibly inviting minors to drink and berating others who did not drink. That is behavior that should be called out and if you cannot behave at church functions, you should be asked to leave.
I would take things on a case by case basis. A mountain dew and piece of cake are not hurting anyone else in the church, obviously.
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I know it has & I just wanted to repeat that. I felt the clear emphasis that it was for Sproul Jnr specifically was one of the things undermined by it constantly being brought back up by V.
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H.A. wrote:
I welcome Harley’s comment. She has often interacted with us on the Discussions page when it was operating and we are always interested in how she was managing.
Please, if you are SO offended by what you see as disrespect to our blog hosts, then of course you must act and report us. But Dee knows that Harley has come here in good faith and has always treated EVERYONE with respect. If Dee has appointed you to discipline people, we need to be told. Otherwise, I see no disrespect in Harley’s comment and I very willing to interact with Harley here in the absence of a Discussion page particularly if she is needing prayer or wants to share.
You’ve got problem with that? You have no idea what Harley has been through.
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Christiane wrote:
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Elastigirl wrote:
Thank you, Elastigirl. I was very concerned about this. I tried to make sure Velour knew my thoughts via private message on Facebook. It seemed that she did understand more clearly in some areas, but she is still incorrect in other areas and would not change her opinion, sadly.
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Berkerj wrote:
yes, I see
actually I did ask her to think about some things, this:
“Christiane on Sun Jun 25, 2017 at 12:27 AM said:
Hi VELOUR,
if you can remember way back some time ago, a person behaved the same way but under a different ‘name’ than H.A.
I think it’s the same person. Best to ignore the barbs. And the pile-on. The person will be encouraged to continue the behavior.
I offered H.A. an invitation to share his/her story. Maybe his/her story lies hidden in those ‘barbs’, and they are the only way this person can express themselves at this time? ‘Acting out’ is not a good substitute for the more direct communication, but sometimes the real story is so painful that there are no words. In time, this changes for the better. Think about grace being the last act in the story, which I think it may be for us all. ”
I think she was not offended by what I wrote.
We are all different people so I will only speak for myself, but I thought to put things into a larger context for her, which is something that seems to offer perspective as a way of lessening the tension. For me, it was the topic that was volatile. People had emotional responses so the discussion was affected by the intensity of people’s personal feelings.
It helps when folks can quietly LISTEN instead of reacting to people’s feelings and that is a difficult skill to attain. But in our faith, I think we must try.
Sometimes people just need to be heard.
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StillWiggling wrote:
I found Martin’s teachings decidedly useless when I was coming to a secular theory of why Scientology was wrong. Because people generally don’t care if my religion (whatever it may be) doesn’t agree with Scientology (or any other religion). What they do care about is people getting hurt. So, while the story of Xenu and Tom Cruise jumping on the couch helped make Scientology a laughingstock, it was the real stories of harm that have been coming out courtesy of “Going Clear” (both the book and the documentary) and Leah Remini’s show on A&E which have given people real life examples of when a belief system goes completely haywire and becomes self-destructive.
Martin never considers that someone may be teaching the most correct doctrine ever, but also be enormously abusive in so many ways. That’s why I find his designation of what a cult is useless.
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Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:
Excellent comment. I agree with you on Martin’s definition and much prefer Ken Garrett’s definition I posted way up there somewhere – lol. Ken’s point is when members are hurt, not the theology/doctrine. And that’s where the rubber meets the road – in relationships and how you are treated within a group.
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Beakerj wrote:
To un-moor your statement from the context I find much meaning in your comment. I have occasionally felt run over by someone who has a high degree of compassion. I have since discovered compassion is not distributed equally by those who possess it and thus there is the need for other virtues that are supplied by others. For example a stodgy person with a strong degree of conscientiousness (big 5 personality type) can be a wonderful balance for someone high in compassion even though they may seem in conflict.
I continue to find so much wisdom in Jesus depiction of us as parts of a body. We find completion, the ability to be well rounded, largely by the virtues of others and left to our own virtue we can go turn it into vice, I can speak from experience. When my limitations are exposed my pride causes me shame when instead I should realize even more the need for the virtues and wisdom of others to temper my own.
Hopefully my off topic comment will be forgiven.
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H.A. wrote [in response to Gram3]:
Theology is not his ONLY problem (obviously), but I do believe it has contributed significantly to this problem being discussed here, as well as other sinful issues in his life.
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{Sigh} Gram3 made the comment I replied to above.
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Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote [in response to my question]:
Wow, this is a lot to take in. I’ll try to find that paper. Thanks!
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@ Deb:
Gram AND Deb, thank you both for the info AND the link re RSJ’s “defrockment” (I’m sure that’s not a real word, lol).
Wow, that was VERY enlightening. How ironic that RSJ commanded a man (and his family) to be shunned because the man submitted a very respectful letter detailing his scriptural reasons for leaving that church. And how sad that RSJ has never apologized to him (and his family).
According to a closing statement, that is just one situation of many which were similar.
One thing that is confusing to me: That article said that RSJ was defrocked in January 2006 — more than 11 years ago! Yet I got the distinct impression from the OP here that he was in church leadership while he was living a life of drinking to excess, giving alcohol to children, and putting his own children in danger?
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A quick P.S. to Ken F: That’s enough to make me wonder if Steve McVey is kin to Anton.
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Gram3 wrote:
Totally agree with this, Gram3.
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Beakerj wrote:
This describes my MIL to a tee. I love that look. 🙂
Have you heard of the “black Irish”? Pierce Brosnan is an example. I love that look, too.
I just love all things Irish, with one exception, their self-proclaimed tendency to drink too much. Frank McCourt said that Irish men either sang or drank too much. I can’t say and I realize he experienced Ireland firsthand. I do love to hear an Irish tenor sing.
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Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote [in response to my questions]:
If I can’t find that, I’ll let you know, Ken. I appreciate your offer to post links.
Don’t worry about your spelling of “insightful” as “inciteful”. Some posts apparently fit the latter description. 😉
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H.A. wrote:
I see here that you have expanded upon the info given in the link provided by Deb about the Austin family. All that you related is way beyond ‘shocking’ to me.
Without being critical at all, I honestly don’t understand why one person’s disobedience to the Lord would cause someone else to lose faith in God, even to the point of turning against God and opting for atheism.
As a teen my married pastor, who had been my pastor all my life to that point and had baptized me, was exposed as committing adultery with the church organist, who was single. His wife was one of my favorite people in the whole church, as she had a genuine love and concern for teens and often found unique ways to encourage me.
When the church was finally forced to take action and fire him, and he left for another church to take another pastor position (reprehensible in itself), the organist went along, too! 🙁
As an adult who had been a very active member of another church for almost 20 years and having raised our children there, the pastor who had been there from the time we arrived suddenly (it appeared) changed and became spiritually abusive. To say that his attitude and actions toward my family shocked us would be to say that the sun is warm.
But in these situations (and others I’ve observed through life), it never occurred to me to walk away from the Lord just because a proclaimed believer chose to disobey Him in any way.
An assistant pastor at the church I mentioned last was a huge fan of Jimmy Swaggart (though our church was very different from his), and when Swaggart’s immorality was exposed, that assistant pastor was so affected by it, he eventually went off the rails entirely. He is still a church pastor (last I knew, at another church), but he himself committed immorality, left his wife and children, viciously turning against her, married the other woman, and is a “pastor” who denies much of the Word of God now. It was a heartbreaking tragedy.
I pray that he and RSJ and all other pastors in those shoes to whatever extent will repent with godly sorrow which leads to repentance not to be repented of.
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Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:
I’ve seen some of Leah Remini’s TV programs. They caused me to want to dig deeper and learn more, so I’ve read autobiographies written by people who either joined Scientology as adults or were born and raised in it.
I can not call Scientology a “church” because it is an atheistic belief. God is not in it. Its highest level, which typically takes people YEARS to attain (if they ever do), is reported by people who finally got there that Hubbard cited sci-fi beliefs as his “great secret”. Hubbard, a Satanist, used religious language to mask the reality of the religion he invented.
So IMO Scientology did not “go weird”. It never was anything but weird. What happened was that people began to wake up, see that it was/is not what it’s cracked up to be, and then tell others about that. I pray for them that they will come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.
Jim Jones is a clear example of someone who started out preaching the Bible but then completely departed from it. When I read his bio, I learned that he got to the point that he would throw it down on the floor and urinate on it during speeches to his followers. He also did other things so heinous I would not mention them.
I do think Martin’s work had/has merit and value, but I also agree with your point that church leaders can preach correct doctrine, but abuse their members spiritually.
In situations like this of which I have personally been aware, though, I will say that spiritual problems had already developed in these leaders’ lives — they were not as they had previously seemed to be. Because of this, there were very serious issues in their personal lives, as well as their beliefs and attitudes. It just took time for those things to come to light, for the inner change to manifest outwardly.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I’m familiar with that scripture, Nick. (I love the Proverbs.) The context of your post reminds me of a very old country saying I used to hear wayyyyy back in the day when someone stayed out of someone else’s quarrel — “I don’t have a dog in that fight.”
I think it was the mention of the dog in that scripture verse that reminded me of that. 🙂
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Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
Wow, that’s quite a list! It will take time to work my way through it, but I surely do appreciate the time and effort it took for you to post that. 🙂
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@ Christiane:
@ Bridget:
The entire reason I asked the question about “a lot of commenters being unkind to V” was to get clarification from you; to see what, exactly, the unkindness was/is. If no one knows what you mean, then no one can examine what they said.
I was never trying to put my assumptions on you at all. I tried to clarify what you meant by “a lot” because from your curt response to me, I gathered we had different definitions of that phrase.
At this point, you have chosen not to answer or clarify these questions. I don’t understand this because it could have helped clear up the unsubstantiated accusation that a lot of commenters are unkind to V.
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Bridget wrote:
A person is defined by their own words and actions.
If someone then decides or assumes ‘what that person really meant’, then they own that assumption. But if they then attempt to get ‘clarification’ or ‘explanation’ of that ‘assumption’, the discussion goes off its trolley.
My words speak for themselves. I own them.
What another chooses to say about those words is their business to deal with, not mine. I can’t answer for someone else’s assumption. Nor can I put any light on it. It comes from them, not from me.
I cannot answer for someone else’s words, no. I’m not the ‘source’ of their assumptions and assertions about ‘what I meant’.
My words speak for themselves. You can make of them what you will, but what is of your making belongs to you. Have a great day.
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Claire wrote:
Yes I have, one of my brothers, who takes after my Irish Grandad (we’re half Irish, half English)had that look, back when he had hair 🙂 I work with a kid who has perfect scowling black Irish looks, he makes me laugh as he is also so full of mischief. The two go together well. As for Pierce Brosnan….well, let’s just say that he has clearly discovered the secret to being a good husband as well as a handsome man.
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@ Christiane:
If I’m honest, Christiane, I am as confused as Bridget at this point. Regardless of what you own or are defined by, you did make a comment on a discussion that involved people and was about something. Many people are apparently being unkind. I would have found it useful to know whom you thought unkind and what it was they said that you thought was unkind.
H.A. referred to “alkies”. (We have the same abbreviation here in Scotland too, probably because it’s an obvious one to make.) Velour felt this was offensive, and I can understand that it might come across as flippant. H.A. explained very clearly where it came from and why it was not flippant. Although Velour was not mollified, to me, it was useful. It certainly didn’t derail the discussion.
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Beakerj wrote:
There’s a wonderful mythical legend about the ‘black Irish’. One film that speaks about it is this beautiful story:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJpbWf3ZzCo
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@ Beakerj:
I was wildly and unbelievably infatuated with a ‘black irish’ lad when I was a freshman in college. I have been able to track him down, or at least his photo, and he also has no hair now. More is the pity.
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Claire wrote:
I had a friend in high school who was DeVaStaTed that Sandy Patty had an affair! I didn’t really get that, but ok.
I have never had a crisis of faith related to the actions/hypocrisy of church leaders, but I may have developed some cynicism early on that stopped me from idealizing them. I can see how some children, brought up in a faith that caused them great harm, might decide that it was not for them, though.
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
thanks for this, Nick
as usual, I am always interested in what you have to say, as it never ceases to life my spirits
if you want me to respond to the individual in question, then you need to come back here as ‘God’ and I just might consider it 🙂
I have my own opinion of what went down, and you and I disagree. That’s okay. But I appreciate your input. On this matter, we see some of the commenting from different perspectives. Nothing wrong with that. I appreciate you sharing what you saw from your point of view.
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
In my former line of work there are a number of terms for various things which would not be said in public, perhaps, but which are quite appropriate-except that people who did not understand the whole background of the vocabulary would probably be offended. As I try to think through some of them I see that they are all frustrating long term situations for which medicine either has little to offer or else situations where the patient is non co-operative. And some are sort of modified acronyms.
Probably they are less used today than a few decades back. Communication styles, not to mention vocabulary, have changed significantly over here compared to when I was young. Except that some of us oldies have not gone on yet, and often we cannot keep up with the latest thou shalt and thou shalt not.
Like got vs gotten. It is just mostly too much for me.
Anyhow, as I was basically unable to scoot from the stretcher onto the operating table due to my vertigo, and as some young person was on the opposite side so that I did not plunge to the floor, I described the nuisance of vertigo using a word which she found offensive but which would have been perfectly appropriate for that particular situation a few decades back. It was an awkward moment. I don’t know if anybody else was offended or if she was some sort of unusual variant, but there it was.
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okrapod wrote:
Well now I’m sorting through words trying to figure this one out!
I listen to a podcast by a doctor and he was talking one day about how people in the medical field often use humor, sometimes gallows humor, to deal with the situations they see every day, but it can come off offensive to people outside of that group because it sounds terribly insensitive.
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@ Lea:
If you want to hear some gallows humor, join me in the oncology clinic! Believe it or not, sometimes it’s a great release to use it.
I am sure people walking by the clinic think we are nuts,or grossly out of order, but we can have a good time poking at each other’s ridiculous situations.
Of course, we are not always a dark, jolly bunch, as we all know the medical prognosis many face.
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Lea wrote:
Precisely. Though it is not alway humor, sometimes it is just frustration with no attempt at humor.
So why would we do that? It is a pressure release valve for some of the difficulties that we cope with, but also it is a sort of in-house-speak that automatically identifies people in the same boat when they recognize what has been said.
So the transaction is (1) steam release followed by (2) recognition which serves as unspoken ‘I hear you’.
I had no original intention of bringing this up on this thread, but there are obvious differences in how various people talk about various things as well as obvious unexpected offenses being taken when none was intended in the first place, and since we sometimes delve into discussion of medical situations here, then I conclude that this needed brought to the front.
The way I experience it, however, is that people are becoming more sensitive and the line marking what is acceptable for public use and what is not seems to be shifting toward the right. I was totally surprised that in the totally non-public place of an OR in operation there would have been any changes in anything, so perhaps it was just that she was young and still learning the ropes. Or not. But her response made me rather unsettled in that I had the feeling that I was in the hands of some who might actually be hostile. That was an over-reaction, but considering the situation it was an understandable over-reaction.
I believe that one should not needlessly give offense and one should not needlessly take offense, and this current trend in our society is headed in the wrong direction if it goes too far in either side trying to force its will on the other.
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Mae wrote:
That too. It is not just the medical personnel who may use that technique.
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Mae wrote:
I absolutely believe you! I think that would be very hard. Probably there are many patients who use the same type of humor to cope, and other patients, or maybe patients families, who might overhear something and find it cold and offensive. I know there was an issue a while back here where somebody saw a comic strip (it may have been hanging on the wall or emailed), and I honestly don’t remember what it said, but it was in this gallows humor vein and it offended someone and made the news and then everybody got training on sensitivity.
And I actually kind of get that, from a patient perspective too. If you don’t think about how providers are dealing with the same issues all the time, sometimes deeply sad painful things to have to watch, then you may not see this as a way of relieving that pain. And maybe if you don’t react to things that way yourself, you may not get it.
okrapod wrote:
Yes, exactly. There was some article I was reading a while back where an American (I guess) shortened Pakistani to ‘paki’ and got called out for it because this is a great insult in Britain I guess? But it’s not one commonly used here, so it didn’t register with a lot of people until that was explained.
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okrapod wrote:
Indeed! I have a longer more rambling response in customs, but I think many of us use jokes as a way of dealing with hard things.
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@ okrapod:
Once an MD I was having a consultation with,( 1st visit ) made a disparaging remark about a President. A remark I did not agree with. Made me nervous as I didn’t dare disagree for fear he would not treat as well medically.
What happened to the old rules of not commenting on religion or politics, while in the workplace?
It does feel like today people wear their feelings, and politics, on their sleeves.
It’s becoming increasingly difficult to communicate a neutral stance, as so often words are twisted to imply something different then the original intent. It’s becoming like walking on eggshells.
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@ Mae:
I totally agree. And that guy should not have been commenting about politics. And religion is still off limits. Those rules have not changed in that aspect, but some people choose to ignore best practices in this area. It is a difficult time in our nation right now with everybody wanting to change the social ethic in their own direction. But that should have no place in any interaction between a patient and a health care provider.
Unless, like my long term PCP and I and we have long ago ‘agreed’ that we agree about the politics of medicine. He complains and I strongly agree. I think it does us both good.
And my long term dentist, who has done multiple medical missions trips, and we agree there. He says he wants to cut the grass in heaven, just cut the grass, because he is worn out with dentistry. But he still goes on several trips each year to places like Haiti and such. Bless him. I believe I have invited him to the barbecue on the lawn in heaven.
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@ okrapod:
Have been going to my primary care physician ( Family Medicine ) for 30+ years. We also can discuss religion and politics but that familiarity was cultivated over a long period of time. I’m sure with newer patients, he would refrain from discussing both politics and religion.
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@ okrapod:
By the way, Mae, I don’t remember if you were here back when I was promoting a barbecue on the south lawn of heaven. I thought that I and some of us could sort of get it started and then invite just gobs of people we know, and that certainly includes you. I am so glad to have met you here.
The only problem that I see is that here in NC barbecue means pork, and they may not permit pork in heaven. It could be a deep and devastating theological conundrum to even suggest it. So if you have any suggestions as to the menu please speak up.
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@ Mae:
Exactly.
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@ okrapod:
I don’t remember that. I’ve been on and off this blog for quite a while. I generally go , missing in action , when I have chemo fog. I read here fairly regularly. To be honest though, I don’t always post as many posters (including yourself)express their viewpoints with better articulation then I can muster.
As for the barbeque invite, thank you. Having lived in Georgia for a period of time, I too prefer pork. Hoping under the new covenant, eating it will be kosher. I acquired a great fondness for fried okra, and honey soaked corn bread!
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@ Mae:
There is nothing wrong with how you express yourself, nothing at all that I can see. Some people are so smooth in how they talk I secretly suspect they may be ghost writers for politicians, but other than that I don’t think we have all that much difference from one to the other. I am kind of verbose specifically because I have not acquired the skill to be more to the point. For some reason they tolerate that, for which I am thankful.
I never heard of honey soaked cornbread, but I do saturate a biscuit in butter and honey so I will try honey with cornbread. Thanks for the tip.
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okrapod wrote:
It’s the best! You will not be disappointed.
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@ Lea:
I don’t know what i did with the list, but i will add it to the BBQ menu.
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okrapod wrote:
You’ve articulated quite well in a pecan shell what I’ve seen for myself over the last 40-45 years. The Chicago statement guys could not rest in the Bible as mystery and magic the way Pastor Sorensen the Lutheran and Father Doyle the Jesuit did all those years ago in my Wisconsin childhood. They (Chicago guys) had to have an absolute linearization of Scripture for something that is inherently non-linear (my opinion). Not only did they fashion Sola Scriptura into various medieval siege engines designed to break into the tooth brushing business as you’ve put it, it’s also been used to dictate the brand of toothpaste as well.
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okrapod wrote:
That’s funny!
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okrapod wrote:
… rumbled!
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@ Muff Potter:
Muff Potter wrote:
Ah yes, Lutheran and Catholic; I am not surprised. Some folks retain the mystery, some flee in fear from mystery. (Because they can’t control it?)
Some folks apparently live in fear of the Spirit and think the only wee small voice they will ever hear is a recall of some memorized bible verse; some treasure the awesome Presence. (Because He cannot be controlled?)
But I never saw until now a concerted effort to marginalize Jesus. (Control issues?)
That just leaves the Bible as authority and leadership as enforcement. They seem to be spiritually starving to death, since they deny the very message of the Bible itself. They sabotage their own last hope.
Ichabod, I think.
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okrapod wrote:
‘”Liberals” use to Stuff Jesus Said to excuse things we don’t like, so lets ignore it’ seems to be the rational to me. okrapod wrote:
Guilty 😉
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I wrote a post a few days ago on my ‘Daisy’ blog about some of the subjects on this thread/post:
Non-Church, Non-Spiritual, or Secular Remedies and Treatments Don’t Always Work
https://missdaisyflower.wordpress.com/2017/06/26/non-church-non-spiritual-or-secular-remedies-and-treatments-dont-always-work/
There is also another post related to that one (and linked to within it, and at the bottom of that post) on the Daisy blog, with this title:
Problems with A.A. (Alcoholics Anonymous)
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Claire wrote:
There is a ton of info out there. The Calvinist position is not nearly as strong as the New Calvinists think it is. Perhaps they believe their is no other way to see the Gospel because they don’t read outside of their bubble. I tried to include sources from a variety of Christian traditions.
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Claire wrote:
Here is the list of articles challenging penal substitution that I posted a few weeks ago: http://thewartburgwatch.com/interesting/books-movies-tv-etc/#comment-326343. The second link has the “God in the Hands of Angry Sinners” paper.
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okrapod wrote:
A few years ago I read his book “Reaonable Faith” and became a big fan of his. But as I’ve read more since then, I realize that he starts with the Greek concept of God being a simple, necessary being, the unmoved mover, the uncaused cause, etc. I’m no longer convinced that this is the best starting point. I also found that he is a pretty strong supporter or penal substitution. I sent him my 20 questions and never got a reply. For someone who seems to be gutsy, why would he not take on those questions? I thought maybe the list was too long, so I broke it down to the basic question of how a being of all actuality and no potentiality could have the potential to be made unfavorable toward us by human action, and then have the potential to be made favorable (propitiate) toward us by the sacrifice of Jesus. In other words, how can an unchangeable God be changed first by sin and then by sacrifice? I felt like that was a fair question. But again, I did not get an answer. I don’t think he wants to answer hard questions on penal substitution because it cuts to the heart of his view of God. If that falls, what else might fall with it?
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Lea wrote:
When my childhood pastor was exposed as a long-time adulterer (with the church organist, no less) and, when he was fired and took another pastorate (!) AND the church organist went along (!), I was about 15yo at the time. I was so shocked, I remember that I made something of an oath to the Lord, saying, “If that’s the Christian life, I don’t want it.”
For the next few years, I steadfastly ignored the Lord and lived my life the way I wanted to live it, making many mistakes which led to serious consequences. But the Lord was there all along, and showed me that, drawing me back to Himself. He moved in my life such a powerful way when I submitted my life to Him, I’ve never been the same since. I never knew that love was, or real peace, or joy, until then. He is faithful. 🙂
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dee wrote:
When communicating through the written word, especially things like comments, email etc, things can go off the rails pretty quickly.
We can’t see the other person’s body language which is supposedly 70% of any conversation.
I’ve read comments by all those involved and I don’t think there were any “bad guys” however I did see a lot mis-communication that probably wouldn’t have happened in face to face conversation.
I enjoy the information that I glean here from the posts and from the commenters. It has been a great resource for me in my spiritual walk.
This next part is going to be tricky because of that old written word but here goes….
TWW is a great resource, for those who have been marginalized and hurt, for education in various warning signs of churches you should probably give a miss, education on different theologies and I deeply respect the hill TWW has chosen to “die on” – which is spiritual abuse – particularly domestic and child abuse.
But I have noticed that there are sometimes blurred lines between being a resource and being a support group. I don’t think a comments section makes an optimal support group – sorry.
Like any great resource, if you deplete it without allowing it to replace (think logging a forest) then it won’t be there for very long.
Even when I disagree with someone here, I don’t think of their intent as being “evil” – I think (with the exception of some – like the guy who endorsed slavery) that most commenters post in good faith. What happened in this thread was assumptions that people were not posting in good faith but maliciously.
I like to think this blog will be around for some time to come. I like the changes that have happened so far. This is going to sound cold but I really support the move away from long term “go fund me” requests. Whether sincere or not, when cash enters the equation, there’s going to be issues. There are so many needs out there that it’s not realistic to even try to meet them all through one blog.
The prayer requests? They’re cool, I get it, it’s what Christians do but I hope that the blog writers will always hold something back for themselves. I think they have to, this blog is an act love or ministry or whatever good thing you want to call it but there are times when you have to look out for number one.
Otherwise that forest will be totally depleted – and we’ll all be the poorer for it.
Peace.
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Lowlandseer wrote:
Thank you for that, Lowlandseer. I have a couple of questions which I did not see addressed in the article (it is possible that I missed them).
1) Did Calvin (and do Calvinists) believe that people are born children of God?
2) Did he (and they) believe that a person can be an unbeliever one moment, then become a believer the next?
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H.A. wrote:
H.A. aka T.W. Eston, aka Peter Kershaw, is that you? LOL You can come out from hiding behind mysterious initials. You’ve been hoping for the demise of the ministry of RC2 for a long while now.
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Max wrote:
I hear you, Mae. But assurance of salvation does not come by intellect (and I’m sure you know that). So many truly intellectual men/women have felt they were so smart, they didn’t need God. Salvation is not about intellect. It’s about the power of the Holy Spirit moving in our lives.
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Julie Anne wrote:
I’m not H.A. (obviously), but what sort of ministry does a man who has done all those things have?
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Claire wrote:
I should have put ministry in quotes. Mea culpa!
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Jeff wrote:
Dear brother, I’m so glad the Lord miraculously spared your life (that’s how I read it). Take good care of yourself and give yourself time to heal fully. When the body has gone through trauma as you did, it does take some time.
I’m so glad to hear that the people of your church are so helpful! What a wonderful blessing. Your church sounds great. I love it when it’s comprised of people of different skin color, because that’s what Heaven is like.
Totally agree with your closing statement about RSJ. It really is a mystery to me how any people could have confidence in him as a leader.
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Julie Anne wrote:
Ah, that makes perfect sense, and I agree. 🙂
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Very revealing. Thanks, Ken. You’ve helped me to make some sense of all this.
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Bridget wrote:
When people are talking about an “inferior” operation of the Spirit, they are clearly not talking about the Holy Spirit, but another spirit. Paul addressed this issue in one of his letters.
Years ago, a pastor’s wife who was virtually worshipped by the church as a woman of great wisdom, was teaching a Bible study I attended. I lost count of the number of times she spoke of the spirit “leading people off”, accusing the Holy Spirit of leading people away from God!
I was so shocked, I was speechless (very unusual for me). To this day I regret not speaking up and simply asking, “What spirit are you talking about?” The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God! That was a Methodist church. Error can be taught anywhere.
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@ okrapod:
Oh my, your daughter is really going through it. 🙁 I pray the Lord will heal her completely, every whit whole, and that His grace and strength will carry you both through this with assurance of His presence with you at all times.
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Claire wrote:
I totally agree. I always wonder what people who call themselves Calvinists think of these statements.
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@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
That does sound like a reasonable question. I would to have like to have seen what he said.
As to penal substitution two things. He has said yes to penal substitutions but he has also said that this is a project which he is focusing on for research, I forget whether he said now or in the immediate future. I got the impression that he thinks penal substitution is part of the answer but not the whole answer.
I could be biased here, because I think that penal substitution is consistent with much in scripture but is looking at the issue from only one angle and is not the whole answer-so maybe I read my ideas into his thinking.
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H.A. wrote:
Her post is possibly more intimately tied to alcoholism than you could ever imagine, and I immediately understood where she was coming from when I read her post.
My paternal grandfather, an Irishman, died of alcohol abuse. Of his 12 children, at least 9 were severely alcoholic, including my father. I went to an oncology nutritionist about 20 years ago. With my family origin (Ireland) and nutritional history (carbohydrate craver) he immediately realized that I had a metabolic flaw in the methylation cycle, which subsequently has been confirmed through genetic testing (thanks, 23 & Me!). For me, this manifests as an inability to process alcohol; half a can of beer gives me a hangover, so I don’t drink, at all but have a deep love for carbs. Fortunately, I have zero attraction to alcohol or any addictive tendencies. Oddly, for many people with variations of this metabolic flaw, there can be a very strong predisposition to alcoholism. The main point being, it isn’t just a character flaw or weak willpower. The body is screaming for something it thinks it needs.
So let’s wrap this around to RC2. Perhaps Lisa Sproul can help support RC2’s sobriety with her nutritional prowess. I greatly wish he could achieve sobriety, but that’s just the tip of the iceberg for this guy. Sadly, as far as we know, there’s no ignition lock, no alcohol monitoring bracelet, no requirement for substantive therapy with a SECULAR psychiatrist or psychologist, no required attendance at an alcohol support group.
Statistically, his chances of relapse (if he is truly sober) are very, very high. Long term, hard core alcohol can damage the brain and certainly adversely affect impulse control.
If his choice of lawyers is any indication, RC has some very deep pockets (especially if he squirreled away/wisely invested any of his staggeringly large Ligonier “salary”). He can afford rehab or excellent therapy, if that’s his priority. Let’s define staggeringly large: RC2’s annual Ligonier “salary” was over $300,000, even while he was “suspended” from Ligonier. Yes, indeedy, non-profit financial statements are public. Who knows if RC1 and Vesta are still funneling $$$ to RC2 as well. Possibly, RC could just cruise without working another day in his life and not be financially pressed. Interesting times ahead for RC2 and Lisa.
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@ Anonymous!:
I am hopeful that Harley will come back. She has prayed for all of us and when she needs prayer, I want to be there for her. I guess ‘newcomers’ (?) don’t realize that a large part of TWW IS encouragement and support for people who have been through very difficult times and need a safe place to come and share and ask for prayer. I have seen TWW as a sanctuary. I am grateful to Dee and Deb for their provision of this service to such people.
We are ‘topic’ conscious, yes. But not at the expense of the very reasons this site exists: to offer help to those who have been abused and need a place to come. Harley is important to us. Her concerns are important to us. And thank you for filling in some of the background to her story. Maybe if the ‘newcomer’ had known, we would not have had that incident directed at Harley.
Dreadful week, this.
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Jack wrote:
I think the Cry for Justice site runs things much like that, which is great for people who have been or are in DV situations. But it does mean that wider issues can’t be discussed fully sometimes. That is fine for that site, but I do think it would change things about what this site is.
Anonymous!, thank you for sharing about your particular metabolic flaw. I had a coworker many years ago who told me basically the reverse, that he would have to drink enough alcohol that it would kill him before he would even be drunk because of his family background. (I don’t know if this was true, just found it interesting)
I don’t think I know enough about sproul himself, medically, to make a judgment call on anything but his behavior, which is obviously dangerous to more than himself and needs to change. I agree with you, he can afford any kind of rehab he chooses. But he HAS to choose it.
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Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
Wow. It’s a great question.
I have wondered if the Crucifixion was not done in order to change US as we are the ones who drove those nails into Christ with OUR sins?
Just taking this scripture into consideration, I see the possibility of just how much Christ’s suffering can bring us to our knees:
” 10″I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.”
I have a feeling that God Himself did all of this for us out of love, and that in order for us to be healed, we have to ‘look upon Him’.
I remember the story in the OT, a premonition of when Our Lord is ‘raised up’, this:
“8Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.” 9And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived” (from Numbers 21)
Reading the OT through the ‘lens’ of Christ, I can see something about how WE are changed by the Crucifixion …… God always did want for us to be healed and that never changed …… in the end, He in the Second Person of the Holy Trinity was Himself raised up for us to gaze upon and mourn of our sin that hurt Him.
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@ Christiane:
We have almost 2,000 years of wondering about this, and the church has a long history of many theories, some more easily understood than others, but multiple ideas none the less.
This is an area in which, if I understand correctly, the RCC has refused to take a precise and specific and poured in concrete exclusive opinion. I totally agree with how the RCC has handled this situation, even if I personally find one theory best and somebody else finds another theory best.
Dr. Craig has mentioned how many people bring up the issue of how to explain the atonement. I don’t doubt that. But I am not looking for a definitive and unassailable theory to emerge in my life time. Sometimes we just have to say that something is multifaceted, mysterious, difficult to process, offends one’s sensibilities and cannot be resolved to everyone’s satisfaction at this time.
One can get caught in a trap if one does not just let a thing go unresolved if necessary lest it become a stumbling block. I believe that Jesus said ‘follow me’ and did not say ‘follow some theory about me’. In my view your Church has done a better job at that than the neo-cals are doing by far.
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H.A. wrote:
Every now and then, a comment reveals FAR more about the one making it than the one on the target end.
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okrapod wrote:
Like I said, at least in my Church we know we are sinners. I don’t know what is going on in neo-Cal heads, but Our Lord doesn’t seem to be the priority, their devotion to ‘male-headship’ seems to be at the top of the heap.
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Oh, btw, Peter, aka T.W. Eston, aka H.A., I actually owe you some gratitude. You played a small part in helping me make the decision to pursue a degree in Cyber Security. Thank you! 😉 I’m nearing the end of the tunnel. Watch out!
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@ Julie Anne:
Home run, Julie Anne. And congrats on your cyber security pursuits. That field is going to get nothing but bigger and bigger, I am thinking.
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@ Jack:
Good comment.
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Claire wrote:
My mother is descended from the black Irish.
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dee wrote:
Have you ever wondered if she was of the ‘selkie folk’?
make a pot of tea and wrap up in a blanket and enjoy 🙂
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJpbWf3ZzCo
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okrapod wrote:
Thank you! I think you are right if the last few weeks are any indication of what’s to come. I think it is the new type of warfare, sadly.
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Claire wrote:
Amen! It’s by the Spirit, saith the Lord! Education does not produce one ounce of revelation. The intellect must be filled with the mind of Christ to understand spiritual things. You can’t figure it out in the flesh.
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Max wrote:
In my Church we don’t have ‘assurance’ in the manner of evangelical people, but we do have ‘trust’ and we do rely on the mercy of God. A favorite prayer is ‘Jesus Christ, I trust in You’;
and then of course the beautiful prayer “Jesus Christ, Son, Savior, have mercy on us”
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okrapod wrote:
I’m afraid to see how Dr Craig would describe a passionate kiss. I think it would be very descriptive and very technically accurate, while at the same time making it sound lifeless and unsanitary. Maybe the atonement is more like a hot dog – something to be grateful for without knowing the details of how it was done. Yes, I agree we lose much when we try to explain things that don’t need explanation.
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Christiane wrote:
Did you read the articles by Baxter Kruger I posted on 28 May on the interesting items tab? They are the first two links on my list of penal substitution links. What he writes is very much in line with what you just wrote.
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okrapod wrote:
Someone sent me an article he wrote on PSA that greatly encouraged me because he wrote as if he has not yet figured it out. I felt relieved that he had not fallen down to worship at the alter of PSA. But his later articles got more and more supportive of PSA. I also noticed that he completely avoids discussing anything that could undermine PSA. So he comes across as someone who says he is not sure, yet he only provides evidence for the pro-PSA position. If he does not know about the arguments against PSA he is incompetent. If he knows about those arguments but does not mention them he is dishonest. I don’t know which is worse. In any case, he is way too intelligent and well educated to be so irresponsible with this one particular topic. I was hoping for better from him.
I really don’t care whether people want to believe in PSA or not. But I care very much when they insist it is the central way to view the atonement and that to deny it is to deny the gospel. Just this week in my church I was accused by another church member of not being a Christian because of my denial of PSA. Thankfully, the pastor is ok with me not believing PSA.
Perhaps you can submit my question to Dr Craig under your name. Maybe you will have better success. I too would very much like to see his answer.
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Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
‘si comprehendis non est Deus’
(Augustine)
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@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
🙂 I must go up and check, but it may be where I got the concepts from
thanks for the prompting, Ken F.
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Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
I found them and will be looking at them …. thanks again. I do recognize that neme ‘Baxter Kruger’, yes…… I’ve got memory issues (like from childhood) and they are not getting any better
I am grateful for the resources you share here. God Bless!
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Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
There’s a book called “The Reduction of Christianity”. The book itself was about a particular topic and sits in a particular context (it’s a response to another book called “The Seduction of Christianity”). I find it hard to get too excited about the book itself, but the title alone reflects an interesting story.
It’s quite common – in fact I’d say it’s normal – to see those who feel themselves responsible for attacking a heresy to hunker down in a small foxhole of passionate “orthodoxy”. As they become more and more intent on fighting the doctrinal war, they become more and more antipathetic towards anything that isn’t exclusively focused on destroying their particular enemy, be it “feminism”, “new age”, “liberalism”, or whatever. In other words, they reduce the Christian faith and, by extension, Jesus himself.
There’s a very well-phrased bit of Tolkien’s writing that describes this very well:
PSA is fine as far as it goes.
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
g’morning, Nick,
this makes sense: “It’s quite common – in fact I’d say it’s normal – to see those who feel themselves responsible for attacking a heresy to hunker down in a small foxhole of passionate “orthodoxy”.”
I see something of myself here because of the reaction I had to ESS, viewing it as a doorway for patriarchists to minimize the Second Person of the Holy Trinity and replace Him with their own importance.
Yes. I see it. Thanks for the mirror.
There is a ‘fierceness’ of wanting to ‘protect’ and ‘defend’ that which neither needs my affirmation nor will be changed in its core because of any ‘heresy’.
The ‘doctrine’ is not the deity. Heresies will come and go. Gnostics will ‘know it all’ in vain. But what is sacred remains in the unapproachable light and is not made greater nor diminished by the efforts of human creatures who can only see as though ‘through a glass darkly’. Silly me. 🙂
Thanks for putting light on this. I needed it.
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okrapod wrote:
I had not looked up any writings by Craig for awhile concerning PSA. I searched his site just now and found this: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/must-a-biblical-doctrine-of-the-atonement-comprise-penal-substitution
It looks like he has finished his project and has settled firmly in the PSA camp.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
This is a very good point. And so is your Lord of the Rings reference. My investigation of Calvinism and PSA started a few years ago with the devastating impact a college ministry had on the faith of my sons. The teaching robbed joy and hope from them and from many of their friends. I became pretty shocked by what I was finding, and went into an OCD phase for awhile in my attempt to figure it out. A few months ago I had a “Holy Palantir, Batman, I’m becoming Denethor!” moment. I’m now trying to pull the pendulum back to center again. If my spiritual state is a house full of messy rooms, I feel like I’ve finally gotten that room into useful order and now I need to head to the messy room I’ve been avoiding – the one with the right-brained experiential aspects of faith. TWW has been a good place for me to process this stuff and help me move on to what I believe will be a more difficult and more necessary project.
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@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
Hi KEN F.
do the folks who adopt PSA have any way to connect it up with the Eucharist, I wonder?
I mean there is so little emphasis on the Eucharist in such circles (or there seems to be) and I haven’t heard any clear voicing of such a connection between the ‘sacrifice’ and ‘the Thanksgiving ie.’the feast)’
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Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
I hope you still share what you are working on with us here, Ken F.
I have for some time, since the death of my dear father, thought about the symbolism of the ‘viaticum’, the Eucharist he received the morning that he passed away. We who were present, joined in receiving, but for him, the significance was ‘strength for the journey’ …. but I have also thought how it is that we who continue in earthly life are also sojourning.
The ‘Lamb of God’ symbolism of the Passover is also something related to ‘viaticum’, to ‘Eucharist’. The lamb slain before the Passover in Egypt was then eaten completely before the Israelites set out to leave Egypt behind for the Promised Land. Strength for the journey.
So I wonder how the idea of ‘Eucharist’ sets within the evangelical teachings on PSA, if it does at all. And if it does, is it related to the idea of Eucharist in some meaningful way to evangelical people?
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Christiane wrote:
You mean the part of the low-church protestant service where you get a stale cracker fragment and some grape juice thrown at you maybe once a quarter?
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Christiane wrote:
I have not seen any connection. It’s a very good question and something I will think about, but I don’t want to dive into that rat-hole at this point. I’m afraid of what I will find.
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@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
oh dear ….
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@ Christiane:
I have thought that PSA only makes sense if evangelicals completely separate the two ‘natures’ of Christ and say that only one of the ‘natures’ (human) was crucified
That doesn’t make sense to a Catholic, though. We see that the whole Person of Christ was crucified, one Person with two complete natures.
But I guess that doesn’t make sense to the evangelicals???
?
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M. Howell wrote:
This was an interesting and helpful observation, thanks!
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Anonymous! wrote:
This was fascinating, thank you.
I know some carb cravers “get drunk” on sugar (or maybe “get stoned”?), and I have talked to a recovering alcoholic who admitted to substituting sugar for alcohol for some time during the early part of the recovery process, but I had never read any of the possible science behind it.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Actually, Nick, I find that this describes the recent unpleasantness remarkably well.
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Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
I was reading this out to Lesley this morning (our mac is in the bedroom and she’s finishing her morning coffee) and she approves of this too! We were, to give some context, talking about how easy it is to get side-tracked into committed low-level Christianity. That is, to throw oneself into servitude in blinkered and immature faith, because grappling with the harder questions, and the apparent contradictions in Christian living, takes too much effort. It’s easier just to flop down on PSA or the sufficiency of scribsher and pretend one is fighting the good fight by defending it. Or, using your analogy, obsessively cleaning only one small room and pretending the house is clean.
I think this is one facet of what Jesus meant when he said that the way to live is steep and narrow, and few find it.
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refugee wrote:
I hadn’t thought about that (I was, genuinely, thinking about the wee discussion on PSA), but I think you’re right.
So, this thing about “hurt”… and TWW being a good place for people who’ve had jarring, unpleasant experiences with toxic church cultures. There are all kinds of people, and all kinds of toxic cultures. People extricate themselves from churches and emerge in all kinds of states. To pigeonhole them all as “hurt” is no more accurate, and frankly no less lazy, than to dismiss them all as “bitter”.
Some people are hurt, and they need care, but that doesn’t mean they all need the same kind of care. Some people are bitter, and they need to stop, but that doesn’t mean they all need the same rebuke. It goes without saying – I hope – that “hurt” and “bitter” are not the only two possible human states either. For TWW, or anywhere actually, to be a place where people with strongly negative church experiences can come, we’ll have to be able to welcome all kinds of people.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
This is so true. Many people have emerged from terrible experiences with a determination to warn others of the dangers of predatory people who prey on the innocent in ‘church’ settings.
I have seen TWW as a sanctuary for recovering victims but also as a place where SURVIVORS could help prevent further victimization from occurring (or at least make an effort in that direction) …..
If a place like TWW can offer a sanctuary that takes in wounded victims of clergy abuse, offers them a voice that had been denied to them and offers a place for them to share their experiences;
and then helps them on the path to become strong SURVIVORS with dignity and something to give back to others, this is all good.
I am one who admires those who stand up for people who are being attacked and bullied. Wade Burleson is one of my great heroes in the faith. There are many others. If Wade has seen the work of the Deebs in helping people and has contributed E-Church to TWW, I am encouraged that he also sees the potential in TWW. I hope he continues to help with E-Church.
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My recent and pertinent blog post:
Be Cautious: Faux Niceness, Victim-Bullies, and Survivor Abuse Blogs
https://missdaisyflower.wordpress.com/2017/07/02/be-cautious-faux-niceness-victim-bullies-and-survivor-abuse-blogs/
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Anonymous! wrote:
I would put money on my family, at least some of it, carrying this too. Being half-Irish & having alcoholics on both sides of the family a few of us siblings are very fond of carbs in the form of sugar, normally encased in chocolate. A lot of children of alcoholics seem to have this. It’s the nearest I come to getting inside addiction & I choose not to drink in case I discover a need for it. I drank as a teenager but had none of the knocks & losses I carry now that might mean I like it in a whole different way.
JJ wrote:
It doesn’t sound to me that you had the true dependency on alcohol that I associate with alcoholism, but that you self-medicate sometimes…like many drinkers. There are definitely different types of problem drinking & different reasons for it, just like over-eating or eating rubbish food when good food is available or a thousand different things. I remember reading about one guy that said going to AA taught him he wasn’t an alcoholic, when confronted with the real thing he knew he didn’t qualify.It sounds as though the context you’re in a labels all/most drinking as problem drinking, whereas I feel that’s extreme.
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@ Daisy:
perhaps the Deebs will permit you to use your post as a main posting here, since it involves so much to do with the people and the work of TWW in ways that you feel need to be addressed.
I think it would be better if they allowed for you to write for them openly to express what you needed to get out. And also this would allow others to add to your observations. Hopefully Dee and Deb will consider this. I think you need to be heard here at TWW in your own post.