"Well, long story short, I spent the next twelve years planting churches with no theological education, I might add, just with a Bible, with Jesus in my heart, knowing that people needed to hear about Christ."
Dennis Darville (9:22 mark)
The Cavalier Daily (10/14/81) – Screen Shot
As I begin this post, I want to say that I am sharing this information, not to be mean spirited, but to try and make sense out of what happened at First Baptist Church Rocky Mount (FBCRM) between the congregation and its most recent pastor, Dennis Darville. It breaks my heart that so many have been hurt on both sides, and I am praying for ALL of you.
Over a decade ago I went through a terribly painful church split, and it has taken me years to get over it. It was a church plant from a large Southern Baptist church in Raleigh. When my family began attending in 2002, I thought we had found the 'perfect church'. There were well-known Christian leaders from our area who were committed to this new work, so what could possibly go wrong? It's a L-O-N-G story, but suffice it to say that those on each side thought they were right, as I expect is the case at FBCRM. Been there, done that, got the emotional scars to prove it. Almost four years later, Dee and I launched The Wartburg Watch, and I have been amazed at how therapeutic this blog has been to me as we seek to help others. TWW has become our ministry, and we do believe we are making a difference in Christendom.
It was a week ago that Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary posted a training video on its website – Between the Times – featuring Dennis Darville. We discussed this video in a previous post. Something in that video jumped out at me, and that will be the focus of this post. At the 9:22 mark, Darville shares the following about his initial call to ministry:
Well, long story short, I spent the next twelve years planting churches with no theological education, I might add, just with a Bible, with Jesus in my heart, knowing that people needed to hear about Christ. And so I spent the next twelve years of my life planting churches on university campuses. Started at Mississippi State, moved to University of Georgia, met my wife there. Then we went we moved to Chapel Hill, North Carolina. Planted a church there in 1981. Stayed until '83. Moved to Houston, planted another church. So the first twelve years of my life, and I'd been a philosophy major in college and I loved apologetics, so the campus context was just perfect. So I was a church planter, so I had no experience with a search committee calling me because I was building these churches by God's grace from scratch. So that's kinda my original experience for calling…
Clearly, TWELVE is an important number to Darville because he used it three times in short order to describe his early ministry. We'll get to that…
Before accepting the call to ministry at First Baptist Church Rocky Mount, Dennis Darville served as Vice President for Institutional Advancement at Southeastern. Back in 2009 he expressed his sentiments regarding the pastorate in an SEBTS article entitled Church 'shepherds' must faithfully preach truth, care for God's flock. Darville explained:
“It’s very simple: We are hard-pressed to find men that are good shepherds, and then to combine that with men who know the reality of Christian doctrine,” said Dennis Darville, Vice President of Institutional Advancement. Monday morning, during the opening session, he said, “The future of the Southern Baptist Convention largely depends on the health of her pulpit. We need men who love Jesus and are careful to exegete the text and exposit the text. We’re making sure we are training men to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ and edify the church.”
Four years later, he was once again quoted in an SEBTS article entitled A Day on the Course at the Seventh Annual Southeastern Classic Golf Tournament (link). Here is a screen shot from that article:
I was curious about Darville's 'failures and successes' as well as the challenges he faced – particularly as a campus minister to college students. Then I remembered the portion of the video quoted above as well as the biographical information that used to be on the FBC Rocky Mount website, specifically:
Dennis' professional background is diverse. He served twelve years as a campus minister, ministering to college students, at the University of Georgia and then moving to the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. He was also involved in planting a campus church in Houston, TX.
After serving as a campus minister, Dennis left the campus for the marketplace.
Later in the SEBTS teaching video, Darville mentions his initial call to ministry on college campuses once again at the 13:30 mark. He talks about doing open air preaching, which they have recently started doing in Rocky Mount.
At the 15:45 mark, Darville shares the following biographical information:
Well then by the time 1990 rolls around I'm in Houston, Texas, I'm married with two children, and the ministry I'm a part of which is a worldwide ministry at the time – planting churches in a university context – was just going a direction that I felt like I couldn't go, and there were a lot of things going on and so Lee Anne and I, my wife and I, had to make some really tough decisions about what am I going to do now, two children, all I've ever known are campus ministries, planting churches. This is how I make my living, this is how I provide for my family, and now I am wondering what I'm going to do for the next chapter of my life. And I'm burned out quite frankly, I'm discouraged, I'm tired, I'm weary this is 1990 and I'm still a relatively young man, I've been going hard at it for years by this point, and I made a very very pivotal decision about my life…
He goes on to explain how a conversation with someone on a flight to Raleigh-Durham led to a career in the golfing industry. Some years later he began pursuing his undergraduate degree at Southeastern, then his M.Div. After a lengthy career at SEBTS, he became Interim Pastor of First Baptist Church Rocky Mount on January 1, 2012 and then Senior Pastor in 2013. As we discussed in a previous post, he called for a vote of confidence on February 14, 2016, which came down 60/40 in favor of the church leadership. That same day Darville (and quite a few on staff at FBCRM) resigned. On Resurrection Sunday, a new church was launched – Christ Covenant Church – with Darville serving as lead pastor.
Now back to the matter at hand… As I reviewed Dennis Darville's biographical information, I was left with the nagging question — what's the name of the worldwide campus ministry in which he invested twelve years of his life (immediately following his conversion)? To my knowledge, he has never publicly identified it.
After a little digging I finally found a source that confirms the name of the ministry
(see screen shot below).
The title of the article is:
And here is how it begins: (see screen shot below)
Now you can go back and insert Maranatha Ministries into Dennis Darville's bio. He joined this ministry in 1978, working on the campus of Mississippi State University. After a brief stint there, he left and went to the University of Georgia to minister to college students as the Maranatha campus representative. It was here that he met his future wife. They married and moved to Chapel Hill, North Carolina to establish Maranatha Ministries on the campus of UNC. There Darville was a 'pit preacher' and planted a church.
As you can tell from the title of The Daily Tar Heel article, Maranatha Campus Ministries came under fire just two years after Darville arrived on campus as its Director. The article goes on to state: (see screen shots below)
The most troubling part of the article (to me) was the following excerpt: (see screen shot)
What is fascinating about this portion of the article is the reference to Rev. Jim Abramson [sic] of Chapel Hill Bible Church. In God's sovereignty, Dee and her husband moved to Durham several years after this article was published, and which church did they join? Chapel Hill Bible Church (CHBC). They absolutely loved Jim Abrahamson during their first stint in North Carolina when Dee's husband was doing his cardiology fellowship at Duke. Although Jim Abrahamson no longer pastors at CHBC, he does teach a Sunday School class there, and Dee and her husband are faithful members. In fact, not long after we began blogging, we listed his website Apt to Teach in our blogroll. It's a small world after all…
We are including one more excerpt from that 1983 Daily Tarheel article (see below):
The above article was published toward at the end of the Spring Semester 1983. The following September, The Daily Tar Heel featured an article announcing Dennis Darville's departure from Chapel Hill. It was published on September 22, 1983, and we are including a screen shot of the entire article below).
In case you're not familiar with Maranatha Campus Ministries, here is a brief description of how it began. (see screen shot taken of the "Beginnings" section of Wiki article). Sorry about the small print.
In fairly short order, Maranatha Campus Ministries began to receive much criticism. The Wiki article breaks down the criticism as follows:
Authoritarianism
Maranatha came under considerable fire during the 1970s and 1980s, largely due to its highly authoritarian structure. There were accusations of MCM being a cult with some former members reporting behavior similar to cults that frequently recruited college students during that time. As advocated by Derek Prince, members agreed to live in mutual accountability to protect their "purity in Christ." As was typical of most organizations influenced by Shepherding Movement teachings, this resulted in the organization developing clear authoritarian characteristics. Weiner, as Maranatha's president, was considered the ministry's "apostle," and was believed to receive direct revelations from God. Campus pastors supervised members' lives very closely. Disobeying one's pastor, or "shepherd," was considered tantamount to disobeying God. The movement was labeled as a "cult" or "cultlike" by some former members and newspapers.
Dating techniques
Members of Maranatha were barred from dating. Instead, singles were told to trust God, pray for God to guide them to a spouse, and hear God's voice speaking to them personally and individually about every decision. If a member believed God had spoken to him or her about marriage, he or she would pray with the pastor about whether that "word" was truly from God.
Tithing techniques
Another common criticism of the organization was its emphasis on tithing, or giving 10 percent of their earnings to the ministry. Although tithing is considered accepted practice in mainstream evangelical circles, several Maranatha pastors were rumored to keep detailed records of financial contributions. They reportedly admonished those who didn't give enough as having a "spirit of stinginess."
Criticism from Universities
The Daily Tar Heel article above provided an apt example of university criticism leveled at Maranatha Ministries. See the Wiki article for other examples.
Christian Research Institute's Report
During the ensuing outcry, Weiner volunteered to have the Christian Research Institute provide a letter of endorsement. He hoped to "expel the lie" that Maranatha was a cult. After a meeting between several cult-watchers and Maranatha's leadership, a six-member ad hoc committee was formed to address Maranatha's problems. More than a year later, the committee issued a scathing report criticizing Maranatha's theology and practices. Among other things, it found that Maranatha's authoritarianism had "potential negative consequences for members." It concluded:
Until we have clearer understanding of the changes which MCM claims are being implemented, and until we see more discernible evidence of change in the lives of people being impacted by MCM, we would not recommend this organization to anyone.
Committee members later said they would have used even harsher language in the report had they not feared legal reprisals. Weiner promised to address the committee's concerns, but later attacked it for anti-charismatic bias.
So what happened to Maranatha Campus Ministries? Here is a screen shot from the Wiki article that explains its dissolution. Again, sorry for the small print.
If you are interesting in digging deeper into Maranatha Christian Ministries, there is a list of references at the bottom of the Wiki article.
One of our blogging friends, Steve240, recently launched a website regarding Maranatha Ministries. It is called Maranatha Ministries Reconsidered. Some of you will remember the post we published introducing this brand new website.
When Maranatha Campus Ministries disbanded, the campus churches were free to become independent or associate with whomever they chose. If memory serves us correctly, we believe Cornerstone Church of Knoxville began as a Maranatha campus church. It chose to affiliate with Sovereign Grace Ministries.
In Conclusion…
I want to make it abundantly clear that I am not questioning Dennis Darville's faith or his call to ministry. While I do not know him, I do know the history of Maranatha Campus Ministries (MCM). I also know that he got involved with this ministry soon after becoming a Christian. In all of the biographical information included in this post, Darville devotes a good bit of time explaining his twelve year involvement in this 'campus ministry' during his early adult years. That's a good chunk of his adult life during a time when he was highly impressionable. Clearly, those experiences made a big impact on him; however, they have left me wondering how much has MCM has influenced his 'spiritual DNA'?
One of Dennis Darville's supporters came onto our blog and assured us that he is upstanding in every way. Others have testified that his behavior behind closed doors is not at all like his public persona. As I said, I do not know him, but his extensive involvement in Maranatha Ministries leaves me wondering what might have happened in private with congregants who were not supportive of his elder-led polity, among other changes he wanted to implement.
When Darville was in Maranatha Ministries, how did those in leadership (who later repented of their highly authoritarian and abusive behavior) treat him behind closed doors? Because he never reveals the name of this ministry in which he spent 12 years of his adult life, I am left with many more questions than answers.
In case you'd like to learn more about Maranatha Campus Ministries, here are two videos that are quite revealing. (Not the best video quality, but the content is important!)
Maranatha!!! Now that was known as one abusive cult. What a start in *ministry*. Good job Deb.
Secunda?
Thanks for this overview of MCM and the tie-in with Mr Darville.
I had a post-college-era friend or two in Maranatha and it messed them up. As authoritarian systems inevitably do. If there’s no Maranatha DNA left in the spiritual formation of authority systems for Mr Darville, it would be good for him to demonstrate it …
Good insight here:
Even before I got to the part of the family coming to the Newman Center priest for help in de-programming their son, I had already thought ‘CULT’
Oh yeah. Darville was trained in the ways of a cult. That was his Christian formation, poor man. Very sad, this.
Good job of researching here, it makes riveting reading.
@ Friend:
Si, si.
Whenever anyone is vague about their background, be sure to ask questions. Campus ministry sounds so nice unless it is a ministry that was known for its cult like behavior.
Clearly, those experiences made a big impact on him; however, they have left me wondering how much has MCM has influenced his ‘spiritual DNA’?
that poor man doesn’t need to be crucified, or exorcised . . .
he just needs to be DE-PROGRAMMED
I found the Daily Tarheel article when FBC was in the throws of finding out exactly who darville was. It “makes sense” that he would treat church members so badly after being so immersed in Maranatha. It seems he attempted then, and is probably trying now with his new church, to inflict the same authoritarian rule, but on a bigger scale. One of his techniques is to use big words that make some people feel inferior and easier to control. He starts out friendly, warm, and humorous, and then gradually sucks people into his distorted version of God’s love. He’s a slick operator, and I can’t understand how so many intelligent people couldn’t see that his main goal was to gain control and take over FBC by running off anyone who opposed him. I thank God for how He sustained us during that time, and gave those of us left the courage to stand up to the madness!
Maybe “planting churches” is not the best description of leading campus ministries. In my estimation, leading campus ministries is not a particularly strong qualification for pastoring an actual church. Campus ministries are (quite conveniently) focused on student-age individuals and, while that has its challenges, it in no way compares to the challenges of pastoring a church in the general sense of the word. It appears the group he was involved with leaned toward authoritarianism. Probably more so than Campus Crusade. The description of the ministry he was involved in, in terms of authoritarianism, to me, doesn’t seem very much different than the present day, run of the mill, Calvinista, 9marx, and SGM churches. Somewhere he switched doctrine to Calvinism. Since that time, he has probably fallen in step with the Calvinista program of taking as many measures as are necessary to be IN CONTROL of the situation (church). We all know ministry, real ministry, is rugged spiritually and emotionally. Seemingly, a definable group of pastors have decided that they can stand the strain better as long as they can keep the sheep in line and have a better than average income. In the last decade or two, certain groups/denominations have shown flexibility with regard to the pastor having quite a bit more authority (and in many cases, income) than has been the norm from maybe the 1950s thru the 1980s, more or less. In my view, the way this has played out is in terms of the pastor’s ability to speak (very) interestingly once a week and his being able to keep the majority of the folks relatively “pumped up” with regard to whatever the program du jour is.
My main problem with so much resting on the speaking ability is that “speaking ability” unfortunately and demonstrably does NOT mean that what is spoken is necessarily going to be what the sheep will get the most spiritual benefit from. It really only presupposes that what is said will seem interesting, authoritative , and not too lengthy. Examples of this are everywhere.
“… then gradually sucks people into his distorted version of God’s love.”
+++++++++
can you elaborate some on what this distorted version of God’s love is?
Catherine wrote:
Distorted in what way?
Catherine wrote:
Here is a prediction. You will be hearing from disillusioned followers of Darville's new church within one year. His DNA has been corrupted by his early experiences. He will not be able to stay warm, humorous and controlled for very long. We have seen this happen time and time again.
Christiane wrote:
Not a bad idea…
Catherine wrote:
Good for you! Want to help us with our research? Just kidding…
I'm so grateful many of you hung in there and refused to be intimidated. If only more congregations would do the same.
As an academic, we go through a lot of CVs (resumes), of both faculty candidates and students. A little rule I have developed over the years is carefully go through them to look for "holes", or incomplete info. I have seen first hand how "undesirable" people have "hidden" things. In this case, the name "Maranatha" was not disclosed…..
elastigirl wrote:
Sounds like a great blog post topic to me. 😉 Who wants to share their thoughts on this?
Deb wrote:
I'm just wondering if this is referring to what is called God's electing love.
Well, well, well. That explains so much. It’s quite interesting that he does not want to mention the name of the ministry he invested 12 years of his life with, the ministry that shaped him. Is this because of shame, embarrassment? Or for more pragmatic reasons?
In the late 70’s I had a wonderful pastor who was also a Greek professor. I’m so thankful for the excellent, grounded teaching I got. During those years there were so many wingnuts out there teaching bizarre self-delusions! I wonder sometimes what became of some of those people.
@ Alan House:
It's very interesting that Darville's new church is renting space on Sunday on the local college campus, where they have been doing campus ministry activities and events with the students on weeknights for several years.
@ elastigirl:
Pastors are supposed to care for members, showing love, and instructing as Jesus would. His idea was yelling and cussing at people, waving objects in their faces, setting himself up as judge of everyone’s actions, deriding individuals from the pulpit, ignoring anything in our bylaws he didn’t like, hand picking deacons who would fall into lockstep wiith what he wanted, looking at financial records and telling people they didn’t give enough, etc. None of that demonstrates God’s love or His expectations of His pastors.
@ Deb:
Good friends with the pres of the college.
@ Catherine:
Interesting… Isn't it a Methodist college?
Alan House wrote:
And, possibly, which also reinforces their own opinions.
@ Deb:
He, no doubt, feels at home in those kinds of surroundings. College ministry and a church are worlds apart.
@ siteseer:
LOL! ESPECIALLY if the opinions being reinforced are the opinions of the BIG GIVERS!
@ Deb:
I never felt called to run away from it. Though it was difficult to stay, I felt God wanted me to fight against what was going on. I still am not afraid for the future of FBCRM.
@ Alan House:
That's what I kept thinking as I was putting the post together.
According to the Wikipedia material on Maranatha Campus Ministries, “Maranatha came under considerable fire during the 1970s and 1980s, largely due to its highly authoritarian structure … There were accusations of MCM being a cult with some former members reporting behavior similar to cults … the Christian Research Institute issued a scathing report criticizing Maranatha’s theology and practices. Among other things, it found that Maranatha’s authoritarianism had ‘potential negative consequences for members’ … Many former Maranatha pastors have apologized and repented for the abuses of the organization, either personally or through books, and have asked for forgiveness.”
Has Dennis Darville publicly repented of his role in this cult? If not, how did he end up in a senior role at an SBC seminary?! Even after numerous Maranatha members and former pastors have come forth with reports of authoritarian abuse, does Darville still say “Anything they don’t understand, they call a cult.”
Can’t help wondering if there was a calvinist/non-calvinist kettle possibly already bubbling when Darville came on board?
Max wrote:
Did they even know that this was his background???
@ Deb:
Yes, it is, and obviously their views and practices differ greatly from CCC’s.
@ Alan House:
“We all know ministry, real ministry, is rugged spiritually and emotionally….
…the pastor having quite a bit more authority (and in many cases, income) than has been the norm from maybe the 1950s thru the 1980s, more or less. In my view, the way this has played out is in terms of the pastor’s ability to speak (very) interestingly once a week and his being able to keep the majority of the folks relatively “pumped up” with regard to whatever the program du jour is.”
++++++++++++
i love that description, “rugged”, spiritually and emotionally. yes, the real thing is.
i get the feeling with some professional christians that if they don’t get multiple generous vacations per year that they really have it rough.
yes, this ability to speak interestingly once a week — not merely interesting, but in such a way that is comfortable to listen to. church is like going to the movies:
-you get to sit and receive amongst others;
-it’s a social experience without requiring anything from you;
-eye contact and conversation aren’t required if you don’t feel like it;
-it’s a so-called spiritual experience without requiring anything from you;
-you can doze or day dream if you like;
-and then when it’s done you feel like you earned some God points which will hopefully tip the scales for a good week ahead.
-that’s church
ridiculous, as far as religion goes. nothing noble about it.
@ elastigirl:
well said.
Catherine wrote:
seems more of a display of a fearful insecurity . . . this ‘control freak’ thing together with the anger may be a sign that the man is out of his depth and is holding on too tight . . . scratch the tyrant and beneath is an insecure frightened little boy who is unable to control his own feelings unless he is in total control of everything around him ….
people like this don’t have very happy lives, and can be destructive by acting out their own needs on others and especially destructive when they are thwarted … just my opinion
Catherine wrote:
Didn’t I just read about that? Oh yes, it was one of the criticisms of Maranatha Ministries listed in that Wiki article (see below).
Tithing techniques
DING, DING, DING!!! Alarm bells are going off!
Slamming his hands on a table, threatening to hit a congregant with a chair, calling older members “precious saints”, calling all accounts of his erratic behavior ” gossip”, .. …. How do folks overlook this and follow him? I just hope those drinking the “koolaid” will wake up before another Jones incident occurs on the COLLEGE campus of Wesleyan where his “church plant” meets.
Deb wrote:
Maybe he just told them that he had spent twelve years in campus ministry (without naming it) and that was OK to them. He will make a good New Calvinist.
@ Deb:
This comes part and parcel with authoritarian church settings. Can/has happened in any number of denominations.
@ Deb:
I have heard from a relative in the new church, that members are "required" to tithe. My question is, how do they know unless they are also required to submit financial statements? Isn't that supposed to be between God and the individual?
@ Alan House:
Tithe blackmailing.
@ Catherine:
Excellent question! Maybe they have to submit their income tax returns for review.
@ Catherine:
Depends on your denomination.
@ Scolded Dog:
Exactly! It was a split, not a plant. Plant are usually done peacefully. This was far from that!
@ Alan House:
Yep
@ Catherine:
At least it was a split (where the disgruntled pastor and his followers left the church facility) and not a TAKEOVER.
It’s getting late in my corner of cyberspace – I’m going to bed. As I log off after reading yet another disgusting account of what’s happening in the American church, I leave you with just one word “Maranatha” (Come Lord Jesus).
@ Catherine:
An important point. It was done in one the the oldest SBC traditions, S P L I T!
@ Max:
Thanks for using that word properly. Sleep tight!
@ Deb:
Yes. They WANTED the building, and we’ve been told they STILL do. In the words of one deacon and another member, “It ain’t gonna happen”!
@ Deb:
I agree. A split is marginally less traumatic than a takeover.
@ Scolded Dog:
The more I read about this kind of behavior, the madder I get! And the more I realize that the Maranatha cult really did have a terrible impact on him.
@ Catherine:
You leave, YOU LOSE! Don't let the door hit you (Darville & gang) on the way out.
@ Deb:
Agree!
Well… having been in groups vety much like Maranatha during the same time period, and seeing that Darville has not disavowed Maranatha, i agree with Christiane on de-programming. (I'm very serious; not intending to be snarky *at all.) It has taken me many years to get beyond the worst of what i went through. Sounds like he is not aware of how deeply he's into it, etc. That's no excuse, though – he should not be in the ministry.
Deb wrote:
Quoting Darville (The Daily Tar Heel 1983):
“Darville said there was a requirement for members to give 10 percent of the money they earned to the church as tithes, or offerings. He emphasized that the offerings did not include money given to students by parents for expenses..
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/67941116/
Evidently, Dennis-boyo not only kept up with everyone’s wage earnings, he kept up with the money that parents were sending to their children.
Alma has left an important comment on last Friday's post, and I didn't want y'all to miss it.
Here's what she wrote:
@ numo:
Agree. He’s an adult and therefore responsible for his owns actions. He clearly has no remorse about Maranatha.
@ Deb:
Good description. I was there. Some of us, though, we’re sending hurrahs to friends and family from our phones bc the ordeal of their presence there was over!
Deb wrote:
These guys don’t have the slightest inkling that there will be a reckoning one day do they?
@ Muff Potter:
Apparently not!
As I head off to bed, I want to leave those of you who are hanging tough at FBCRM with this encouragement from James 1:2-4 (NIV):
Trials and Temptations
@ Muff Potter:
Not yet, but every dog has his day.
@ Deb:
Amen! Sleep tight!
@ BL:
Been there, done that, back in undergrad.
Great research Deb. A few days ago Elizabeth dropped in to scold us, telling us we didn’t have the whole story, ironically she was right.
@ Catherine:
Yep!
@ Bill M:
Good one! It was after her chiding that I stumbled upon this information.
Gotta love the internet!
numo wrote:
I’m curious what the recovery rate would be of those who were in leadership vs those who were members.
@ Scolded Dog:
“Slamming his hands on a table, threatening to hit a congregant with a chair, calling older members “precious saints”, calling all accounts of his erratic behavior ” gossip”, .. …. How do folks overlook this and follow him?”
++++++++++++++
this had to have been done in private, with only a few others present, correct?
if so, i’m guessing it didn’t stay private.
did darville and his lieutenants deny things like this happened? how did they explain it away?
siteseer wrote:
How many of these authoritarian leaders have you heard repent? That will give you the answer.
siteseer wrote:
I don’t think those in leadership deprogram, they just move on into the next ‘ministry’.
Deb wrote:
A local church that is all about:
Covenant – obligation of membership
Contract – tithing requirement
Control – hierarchy in place
@ elastigirl:
Of course they denied it – everyone ELSE Is evil and stupid!
@ JYJames:
Anywhere darville is!
Alan House wrote:
Extortion. Marantha Mafia?
There’s a very good post by Mary DeMuth today called 13 Traits of Predatory People. It fits so many of the toxic leaders that we discuss here.
http://www.marydemuth.com/predatory-people/
Bill M wrote:
Elizabeth. ……. Oh, Elizabeth! Where are you? Care to comment?
JYJames wrote:
The new definition of “Gospel”!
@ Bridget:
@ BL:
That was my suspicion as well. The victims are lucky if they can get free and deprogram but the predators – I’ve never heard of a predator deprogramming. They just seem to move on to new pastures and start again.
Being able to say that God spoke directly to them and told them what you need to do is like crack to a predator. Why would they ever give it up.
Deb wrote:
“Love” where there is no love. Just a hollow place of rules, indebtedness and obligation.
1 John 3:18
“Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.”
Bridget wrote:
I’ve seen a few kinda apologize. Oddly enough their apologies are very similar.
I’m sorry. Some people got hurt. 90+% of what I taught was right, and I still believe it. We grew so fast. The problem wasn’t the teaching, it was the implementation. Young men who meant well, were perhaps a little overzealous in their application of these truths and sometimes immature in their actions.
The End.
Oh, by the way, this apology usually comes a few years afterwards when the number of wounded and dying keep screaming or whimpering and won’t go away or shut up. Also after they are well established in the new season of their ministry.
Apologies don’t necessarily indicate repentance.
BL wrote:
That is why I said repent not just apologize. Repentance to me means change 😉
Bridget wrote:
I agree. That was just my long-winded way of saying so. 🙂
Bridget wrote:
Yes, with evidence.
Matthew 3:8, Luke 3:8 – Bring forth the fruit of repentance.
So…let me see if I get this straight. Darville was involved in ministry in a charismatic, shepherding cult for 12 years and fails to mention the name of that ministry. Then, fast forward to First Baptist Church Rocky Mount where he becomes interim pastor, then regular pastor. And at some point he wants to take over the FBCRM using the Neo-Calvinist playbook. What is this fella? A chameleon?
dee wrote:
Funny how he wants to use that “campus ministry” as viable work experience without mentioning the ACTUAL name of the ministry. If one is proud of their work experience, then they won’t the identity of the organization for which they worked.
They won’t HIDE the identity of the organization for which they worked
@ Catherine:
“Of course they denied it – everyone ELSE Is evil and stupid!”
++++++++++++++++++++++++
i’m just so curious how this played out. it’s like something out of a movie, or a page-turner novel. even after hearing about so many scuzzy things happening in churches, it is still breathtaking. while i’m no longer surprised, it still amazes me– how duplicitous & extremely rotten christian-identifying leaders and their followers can be.
how many people witnessed this extreme behavior? how did confrontation happen? what were their responses? how were they received? if this is too personal, no need to get into it.
@ Catherine:
“His idea was yelling and cussing at people, waving objects in their faces, setting himself up as judge of everyone’s actions, deriding individuals from the pulpit,”
+++++++++++++++
so hard to believe. you seem sincere and credible, so not really doubting. deriding individuals from the pulpit — was this done in a seemingly ‘good-natured’, back-handed compliment sort of way?
If you read Southeastern's magazine from 2009 onwards, you will see a few familiar names. For example
http://betweenthetimes.com/index.php/2009/11/
And here C J Mahaney makes an appearance
http://betweenthetimes.com/index.php/2009/11/
@ Lowlandseer:
C.J. Mahaney came to Raleigh a few months back and preached at a church where one of Akins’s sons pastors.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/04/08/is-there-a-dearth-of-discernment-in-the-mahaney-admiration-society/
@ Darlene:
This guy is a salesman who stumbled into an easy gig as a young man. Everything he’s done has revolved around persuasion, not conviction. First Maranatha, then upper level sales and marketing at the big golf companies, then “institutional advancement” at Southeastern – just another sales position. At FBC Rocky Mount, it looks like he used the soft sell first, then the hard sell, then lost his cool when that wasn’t working. Now he’s back to his roots, targeting the easy marks at a college.
One thing that has always concerned me about this movement is that they put teaching higher than other spiritual gifts.
I see this from a lot of non Calvinists in the SBC, too, at churches where I’ve attended or been a member. A lot of teachers lecture with no questions and no discussions. The sermon is the most important part of the week. There is much less emphasis on congregants studying the Bible for themselves. The sermon must be more than half the service. Pastors are considered celebrities (even found with many independent Baptists, as a common greeting question I got at Liberty University was “Who are you related to?”. I think this emphasis is what makes the SBC the most ripe field for the TGC crowd. And I agree with others here that they have to take over churches because they can’t find enough non-Christians who’ll buy their authoritarianism to plant their own.
I have a number of Methodist friends, and while they disagree over a number of issues with each other, they know the Bible from their intense Disciple classes. You studying the whole Bible over the course of a year. I did the very first year of the student Disciple program as a junior in high school. It’s tough.
I believe the expectation should be that the congregation should be studying the Bible and eventually become as knowledgeable as the pastor, not that a teaching gifted pastor should be the center of the church. Then the whole church should be doing the work of the gospel, using all the gifts to do so in equal manner. I think it might be too late for the SBC, and that it will become the new Calvinist denomination.
Darlene wrote:
Yes. The wolf didn’t change, he just swapped out sheepskins.
The playbook remained the same.
Denominational distinctions are being eliminated by leaders who all share the same basic goals, the distinctions are of no importance to them.
The establishment of their all-powerful authority over their kingdom, and networking with other leaders of like mind.
ishy wrote:
I have no doubts that the SBC will become a Calvinist denomination.
@ Darlene:
Pretty much!
Bookbolter wrote:
Great assessment. darville knows how to rad people enough to access what he thinks they want and becomes that – for a while. Then he gradually heats the water up Where it’s harder to “escape”. What he didn’t anticipate at FBC were the people who knew God’s Word as well or better and would not allow him to take over.
@ Darlene:
He's a salesman.
@ Deb:
Both in reality and in his tactics
Bookbolter wrote:
Yes, great assessment. Unfortunately, other campus ministries, such as CCC, are also very “sales” oriented…. It is the American culture.. plus, a “sales orientation” is much easier to quantify to justify what every your goal is…
Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
Great comment.
Alan House wrote:
There are two words that the Calvinistas put spins on. *Grace* means the doctrines of grace. Those are not the same thing. *Love* means “I love you enough to tell you what a loser you are so you can get your life together like me.”
siteseer wrote:
I believe that anyone who wishes to be a pastor and has been involved in any of these cults needs to have intensive psychiatric assessments to see how stable he is. I believe that immersing oneself as a leader in cult for any period of time could potentially disqualify a person from ever being a pastor.
Catherine wrote:
I sure hope he knows about Danville's background and keeps an eye on him.
Alan House wrote:
You will find neither model for doing church by Christian ministers in the New Testament. However, there are several references to wolves scattering the flock and false prophets taking over churches. A genuinely called man of God administers healing to wounds; he never throws salt on them.
Max wrote:
This is exactly what I said to Deb yesterday. Has this guy repented of his 12 years in such an abusive cult? He wasn't just an attendee. He helped lead it. This calls into question his judgment.
@ elastigirl:
Great comment, as usual!
Catherine wrote:
I think this is a very, very important comment. Just because someone has a degree from the seminary du jour, does not mean they are theologically stable. Some pastors use the Bible and ministry for their own personal benefit which can mean money, a feeling of control, or a way to hide some serious issues. One does not need a seminary degree to be astute and even more well grounded in the Scriptures.
numo wrote:
A spirit of arrogance never admits being wrong about something. That’s why you don’t see any New Calvinist icons stepping forward to repent of influencing a generation of youth to conduct a militant and aggressive takeover of mainline churches by stealth and deception. Even those who lost their ministries when exposed (e.g., Driscoll) strive to make unrepentant comebacks.
Maranatha was another of those ‘dating is bad’ groups? Their language on that was bizarre (the whole thing about avoiding things that might cause hurt? We are human. That’s impossible). I’m wondering if he ever changed his stance on this, and if that’s why we saw the weird youth group stuff that was reported, if that was just generic misogyny?
Also, I remember my church having some sort of affiliation with Paul Cain. Maybe I even saw him speak or met him as a child. So that’s interesting.
elastigirl wrote:
I totally believe that this sort of stuff happens. I know I sound like a broken record re the parallels with toxic corporations…but yeah, I know of a case like this in a corporate setting. The peons could never get away with such behavior…not in a million years. But the mucky-mucks can and do.
Bridget wrote:
For folks who talk about grace-this and grace-that all the time, who proclaim doctrines of grace, they don’t appear to fully understand man’s role in accessing Grace. They have thrown repentance away in their preaching.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer calls this attitude “Cheap Grace.” In his book “The Cost of Discipleship”, he says this:
“Cheap grace means grace as a doctrine, a principle, a system. It means forgiveness of sins proclaimed as a general truth, the love of God taught as the Christian ‘conception’ of God. An intellectual assent to that idea is held to be of itself sufficient to secure remission of sins…. In such a Church the world finds a cheap covering for its sins; no contrition is required, still less any real desire to be delivered from sin … Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance.”
TWW, thanks for your effort to keep cheap grace out of our churches.
I haven’t finished reading the OP, but had to stop when I read about the group referring to itself as “God’s Green Berets” in the article “Maranatha pastor leaves Pit, University.” http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/06/22/dennis-darvilles-first-12-years-of-ministry-summed-up-in-a-word-maranatha/screen-shot-2016-06-20-at-1-18-52-pm/
I have heard many groups refer to themselves as ‘God’s Green Berets’ and some professors at SEBTS (or at least former professors) used that phrase to describe one thing or another. There are several Special Forces members in my wife’s family, including her father and two half-brothers, and in my opinion, casually using that phrase to make something look more difficult or impressive is an insult to active or retired Christian ‘Green Berets,’ who are the only true God’s Green Berets.
Now back to the post.
BL wrote:
“I’m sorry I got caught” ain’t repentance!
dee wrote:
Maranatha (a word badly overused in Christianese back then) never made it out to Cal Poly Pomona, but they sound like they out-Navigatored the Navigators (who in turn out-Christianed Campus Crusade).
Max wrote:
Doesn’t North Korea talk about Democratic-this and Democratic-that all the time?
Lowlandseer wrote:
Our favorite word “gospel” makes an appearance:
Breakout Sessions
The Church and Her Treasure (The Gospel):
What is the Gospel? (Matt Chandler)
How do I read the Bible (OT and NT) in a Christ-centered and gospel-centered manner? (Steve McKinion)
How do I share the gospel on a secular college campus? (Tim Miller)
How do I live a gospel-centered life? (Chad Hood)
How do I introduce the gospel in interpersonal conversation? (Clayton King)
How does a right understanding of the gospel fuel the local church’s global mission? (Dave Owen)
So if you are wondering ‘what is the gospel’ ask Matt Chandler.
Max wrote:
GODS Can Do No Wrong.
dee wrote:
Isn’t that the same definition of Love(TM) you get from an Abuser? Specifically, the “bloated spider” type of Abuser whose goal is to devour You like Screwtape?
Darlene wrote:
Such lizards change their colors to not only conceal their identity from predators, but to deceive their own prey. There are folks in ministry who re-invent themselves, who put on new colors, to be absorbed into new landscapes. The shepherding movement is out; New Calvinism is in.
Bridget wrote:
Recovery rate ZERO.
Just like pedophiles.
Burwell wrote:
I did not know that. BTW, thank you for the info on BBC. I also did not hear about that one and look forward to delving into the reasons for that mess after things settle down around here. Thank you!
Bookbolter wrote:
Excellent training for doing church in 21st century America, where merchandising the gospel is big business (book sales, speaker fees, higher salaries).
BL wrote:
This is excellent. I may borrow it soon for a post!
BL wrote:
ROFL.
Also, have you notices that pastors are only called to churches in which they will make more money?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
My older son was sucked into Navigators in college. He had kind of a bad experience. Can you tell me more?
ishy wrote:
We’ve got too many teachers in the mix … America needs prophets!
ishy wrote:
That indeed is the expectation for the Body of Christ! Whose job is the ministry? Every believer has a part! A good pastor will be engaged in equipping the saints to do the work of the ministry. Anything less than that is doing church without God.
dee wrote:
The pastors’ version of climbing the corporate ladder.
Max wrote:
I’m sorry you don’t get why we had to discipline a woman for leaving a pedophile.
I’m sorry you won’t let us ‘love on you’ by throwing chairs.
BL wrote:
Someone once said that heresy is an over-emphasis of a long-neglected truth. When you stretch “grace” beyond its Biblical bounds by employing the methods of flesh, you tread in error.
@ Max:
You are always spot on with your commenting!
Burwell wrote:
We had the same military flavor in the shep/disc movement. It’s a useful tool for these leaders in order to substantiate their authority as well as your need (as an excellent ‘specialist in the force’) to obey quickly and unquestioning.
God’s Special Forces…
dee wrote:
It is amazing that these guys at FBC left UNBELIEVABLE packages…..walked away from it all.
dee wrote:
Help yourself!
Those statements and variations thereof have been in every published ‘apology’ for abusive ministry that I have read so far.
If someone runs across one that does NOT contain any of the above, I hope they will bring it to our attention.
Oh yes all in private but always with one of his lieutenants there to encourage him! When people started talking ALL of this came rushing out. @ elastigirl:
Darlene wrote:
Always, always ask about the vague parts of a resume. Also, if you do not know the ministry or do not know it well, Google like crazy. I would vote against anyone who spent a prolonged time in leadership in an abusive ministry, even if they apologized. Apologies do not mean they have overcome the inbred culture.
Gudbrand wrote:
But, they walked away with the ATM people! I bet they expect to be well compensated.
Max wrote:
Well said!
Lea wrote:
YEP!
dee wrote:
Oh yes!
Have you ever noticed that they want and claim the same level of authority that apostles had?
That’s the one that kills me – in an ironic way.
They actually demand MORE obedience, obsequiousness, submission that any apostle *ever* did –
BUT
But, they don’t want or claim ANY of the other attributes of the apostles.
For example:
“This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed.
Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful.
To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless.
We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; when we are slandered, we answer kindly.
Yeah – I’m not seeing the resemblance.
Bridget wrote:
And God wants you to go to make more money so He calls you to a church to make more money. Sounds just like the disciples…
BL wrote:
It's good to compare the life of a church leader to the lives of actual godly leaders in the NT.
@ dee:
DEMAND to be well compensated is what I predict.
BL wrote:
The discredited religious order Legionaries of Christ (founded by an evil perv who snookered people with his supposed orthodoxy) also adopted this military-elite image.
Burwell wrote:
My husband is not a pastor, but he is a part-time preacher. He retired from the military in 2006 ……. 5th Group Special Forces ODA-544. He was real Green Beret for 15 years …. from Q-Course all the way to Jump Master ….. Deployments to Iraq………. He and his team had to jump from a helicopter under live fire upon arrival at the Bahgdad airport once that I know of.
All of these over-ripe-skeerd-of-real-women little boys comparing themselves to Green Berets make me mad enough to chew nails and spit molten metal! An encounter with a real Green Beret (or his wife or daughter!) would make these boys tinkle in their Pampers Pull-Ups!
Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
Although not everybody takes it that far, this imagery is pretty common. We used to sing ‘I’m in the lords army’ as a kid. And of course, there is the battle hymn of the republic.
Max wrote:
If you are one of the “Elect”, why would you need to repent? Behavior has nothing to do with salvation. Either you are “Chosen”, or you are not. Do what you want to do – no need, no reason to change.
Very interesting post.
I still have a suspicion that something went on in Houston that prompted his return to the business world for several years before going to Southeastern.
I know this sounds ugly, but I’m gonna say it anyway:
Lea wrote:
Okay, brang it on. But just remember, I love you, too!
Anonymous wrote:
Is that somewhere around the time marantha fell apart?
I just started reading the Jared Wilson article linked yesterday about how the ‘gospel’ (as defined by authoritarian neo cal control freaks) can divide a church. You know it’s going to be bad when they start with this: ““Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household.” — Matthew 10:34-36”
Nancy2 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq08yOneY_0
@ Anonymous:
What went wrong (in my opinion) was that Maranatha Ministries ceased to exist by 1990. Darville joined the ministry in 1978. Twelve years in the ministry = 1990 (when Maranatha shut down operations).
Lea wrote:
Paul used that imagery, but he himself was the real deal. I think that may be the difference.
Max wrote:
Amen.
Today’s churches treat those gifted prophetically, just like their fathers, the Pharisees did.
And by prophetically, I am NOT referring to the crazy-whackjobs claiming to be prophets who run around producing ‘personal’ prophecies that are equivalent to those produced by gypsies with crystal balls.
Or Peter Wagner’s apostolic-prophetic whackadoodles running around the world issues ‘decrees’ and making pronouncements a la Todd Bentley.
Or Piper’s idea of fallible prophets who seem to be announcing that they are speaking for God as they spurt out some stream of consciousness, and if they’re repeatedly wrong, evidently it doesn’t matter.
Prophetic people are downers, and tend to rain on the shiny, happy people.
Which causes church leaders to say as Ahab did to Elijah; “Is that you, you troubler of Israel?” Just swap church with Israel.
Or Ahab about Micaiah: “There is still one prophet through whom we can inquire of the LORD, but I hate him because he never prophesies anything good about me, but always bad.
The attitude of religious leaders has not changed.
Nor has the responsibility of those gifted prophetically.
“For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”
Jesus is our foundation, our plumbline. As we testify of Jesus when encountering the errors of religious leaders today who have some other foundation, who use some other plumbline – that is prophetic.
Lea wrote:
Lea: The way folks like Wilson twist scripture for their evil purposes is almost unbelievable. They also appear to have no conscience as to the damage they are doing to the churches they takeover.
Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
BTW, don’t mean to derail this thread by any means, but there is a Catholic “watch-blog” for survivors of the Legionaries’ lay arm, Regnum Christi. At least one of the watch-blog’s founders tried to recruit me to Regnum Christi when we lived in Charlotte back during the late ’90s. Apparently she is no longer drinking the kool-aid – au contraire!
Fortunately, at the time that she and a few other gals tried to recruit me, I was definitely not interested. For one thing, I was kind of turned off by the seeming rigid coldness of the priests leading the recruitment meeting. (I guess that coldness goes along with the whole military-elite thing, but it wasn’t my spiritual cup of tea at all.) Plus, I had small children and a full-time job, so a life-consuming lay-ministry group wasn’t even an option.
Here is the watch-blog:
http://www.life-after-rc.com/
It truly amazes me that the Legionaries and Regnum have not been shut down. I guess they are supposedly being “reformed,” but how can you reform something founded by a monster like Maciel? A bad tree CANNOT bear good fruit…just shut the dang thing down already!
OK, sorry to get off-topic. I literally had forgotten all about the existence of the watch-blog in question, until Burwell mentioned the Green Berets angle.
It’s always women who found these watch-blogs, isn’t it? Are we females more discerning, or what? 😉
Regarding BL at 9:57AM: I have 6 years military experience; I never experienced anything like the abuse described here in the military setting–only the church setting.
Military authority is based on trust–leaders with credibility earn trust–then, perhaps, ‘unquestioned obedience’, but trust me, enlisted men especially are very aware and not as compliant to stupidity and abuse of authority as you may think the stereotype would predict.
Leadership that does not have the trust of the men and women they are leading, in my experience, gets removed pretty quickly. I have never had a civilian job where I had the freedom to question those over me as much as I did in the military. As long as your questioning is mission-focused there is much more debate than outsiders would think.
Of course, I got out in 1983–perhaps things are different now.
I should qualify my previous comment–once I got out of Basic Training–Basic Training is sustained abuse with a purpose–looking back, I remember the funny things that happened much more than the unpleasant–every one knows it is a game with a purpose–easier to cope with than someone who pretends to care for your soul undermining your faith.
dee wrote:
I would settle for just this one: We work hard with our own hands.
If only the pewishioners, when hammered once again with the ‘obey your leaders’ mantra, would actually LOOK at how Scripture describes *leaders*.
And realize that the man asserting his authority over them does NOT even come close to being a leader as described in Scripture.
Maybe we should put together a bullet list of the absolute requirements of a Scriptural leader?
Skip the nebulousness of ‘spiritual leader’, and start up a call for Scriptural Leaders.
Don’t meet the standards in this list? Then you aren’t a Scriptural Leader and you have no legitimate authority over any of God’s people.
Your pastor doesn’t meet the standards on this list for Scriptural Leaders? Then he has no legitimate spiritual authority over you.
If the church leaders, including parachurch leaders, were as honest as my drill instructors I would not have a problem with them. It is just that the abuse is ‘clothed’ in a context of ‘care’ and ‘concern’ which is, in reality, naked manipulation for their personal gain and power, not for the good of the person being ‘cared’ for or the mission of the church.
@ Catholic Gate-Crasher:
Interesting comment.
As an academic that has, and continues to work in a true, peer reviewed, intellectually competitive environment, with demanding students and demanding intellectual environment, it also annoys me when these "bros" claim all of there "academic titles"… They have no idea what it is really like Nancy2 wrote:
Deb wrote:
Under the guise of ‘helping you budget’ – this method was used in the shep/disc.
Bring in the last 6 months of bank statements to your shepherd, and let me *help* you…
We die to many things in life as we grow; certainly, I have died to the idea of being a great, rather than a serviceable athlete (in high school), to being the perfect husband (32 years of marriage), the perfect father (that died within about 6 months of becoming a father).
I have died as well to the thought of perfect, or honestly, even church leadership that looks like Jesus. The pastor of the church my wife and I attend could blenderize a puppy from the pulpit on Sunday morning and I would not be shocked that it could happen. I can embrace and enjoy what he says that is true and in line with Scripture, but I purposely do not interact beyond polite greeting. There are many in the church for whom personal contact with the pastor is very important–it is not for me, for us, so I give Him that space. What I know about Jesus is enough to sustain me in faith regardless what leadership has done, is doing, or will do in the future. What’s true is true, no matter what men are capable of doing.
On the Maranatha connection:
Rice Broocks, Phil Bonasso, Steve Murrell, Jim Laffoon; all Maranatha leaders. When Maranatha ‘decentralized’, many of the leaders kept right on going and simply changed the names of their ‘ministries’.
Every Nation, Morning Star, His People, People International, Champions for Christ are just a few of Maranatha’s children.
Maranatha petered out as a visible entity for the same reason shepherding/discipleship did – exposure.
Following is a quote from Laffoon which exemplifies the vision that all these leaders share in common. Denominational distinctions don’t even enter into it.
Quoting Jim Laffoon from 2004: (full excerpt here: http://www.talk2action.org/story/2007/2/26/112619/091)
THAT, frankly, is what is deeply rooted in these leaders. This was the same foundational belief that was in shepherding/discipleship, and it is the same one that undergirded Maranatha.
Why is authority the foundation and pinnacle of their beliefs? They want to rule, they think they are called to rule, and they intend to do what it takes to establish that rule.
@ BL:
And I'll bet some were gullible enough to do it.
BL wrote:
Nice blog post Deb.
Bob Weiner who was Maranatha’s leader along with his wife produced a series of supposed bible teaching books that members basically were required to buy and read. It would be interesting to compare what Bob Weiner taught about repentance vs. what Bob Weiner actually did.
From what I have seen there is quite a difference. If/when I start reposting on my blog about the group that might be one item to write about.
@ BL:
I seem to recall seeing a link between Darville and Every Nation on one internet discussion page.
Nancy2 wrote:
Nancy, please tell your husband thank you for his service! My father-in-law was 6th SFG during Vietnam, and my two brothers-in-law are/were 3rd and then 10th SFG, both having served in Southwest Asia.
I have had the privilege of attending several of the annual retired Special Forces gathering and dinner at Fort Bragg, where I have met some genuinely interesting people, from the commander of the US Special Operations Command, the commander of the John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School, former presidential candidate Ross Perot, Bo Derek, etc. However, far more interesting were the men I met whose names I would never remember but who were some of the nicest to me, my wife and my daughter, that I have ever had the pleasure of meeting. I am not a veteran, but they treated my family and me like we were their friends. That will always stick with me.
Deb wrote:
It seems pretty obvious that this Darville chap is a twisty liar. Deceitful and dishonest and sneaky. How is it that there are so many like him in Evangelical Christianity, and that they move from scam to scam to scam, and nobody seems to care or even notice? Does believing in Christ automatically make (some) people into gullible uncritical chumps… repeatedly?
I’ve been hanging out here at TWW for a long time, and I just have to wonder why nothing ever seems to change, no matter how much publicity these matters receive.
There will be con artists for as long as there are gullible chumps, or sheep to be fleeced if you will.
@ Steve240:
Glad you started that blog. It's a great resource and help for those who need it.
Deb wrote:
Some? Are you kidding? Our almighty Poobahs were giving of their time and talents to help us all better manage our money!
Don’t forget the parable about the 3 men and the talents they were given!
Those 2 wouldn’t have messed up like they did, if they had been properly submitted to a spiritual authority, who would have guided them biblically in what they should have done.
BL wrote:
Creepy!
1. The church has ‘ruled’ nations before, and how well did that work out?
2. All of these people’s philosophy’s of god come down to CONTROL. I am convinced a controlling tree will have bad fruit, always.
3. I think, if I don’t think this quote is nonsense, it might be saying that each generation has to learn things anew. God has to speak to them specifically. You can’t pass your Christianity on to your children – you can share with them but they have to come to it on their own.
@ Cousin of Eutychus:
In the early fifties I underwent three years in a strict and hierarchical system for an educational purpose. That kind of education for that specific vocation has gone out of style. However, we had a strict and enforced dress code including which door of the dorm we could or could not use based on whether we were in uniform or not. Specific hours to keep even when off duty. We were required to stand in the presence of certain people under certain circumstances. We did not question authority until we were at a level of training which had actually covered that segment of the curriculum, and any questioning then was at your own risk and usually only showed he questioner’s inadequate grasp of the subject. We always referred to ourselves as Miss Whoever on the job-no first names for anybody ever. If we got married we were dropped from the program. And if somebody higher up in the hierarchy was rude to us we said nothing about it and just went on. The list goes on. This sort of situation would not be accepted today, but it was common then.
I am talking about what at the time was called ‘nurses training’ at Kentucky Baptist Hospital. We were affiliated with U of Louisville. We had excellent education/training for the practice of nursing. Several years ago at the time of the fiftieth anniversary of our graduation one of my old class mates asked if I remembered something or other and commented ‘we were really tough back then.” It was a source of pride. We were tough. I am tough, or so people tell me. Hopefully also lenient, understanding and kind, but tough. I have intimate interaction with one educator and two lawyers of a more recent generation who are also tough people and who function in tough situations.
Perhaps the appeal of ‘we are/ can be really tough’ is part of what attracts people to abusive religious systems. They fail to differentiate between good tough and bad tough? Similarly the military-good tough vs bad tough perhaps????? Merely standing around the campfire holding hands and singing just does not cut it for some people. They can get off track while looking for something more.
Okrapod, I totally understand what you are saying–many that I know/knew in these church or parachurch abusive settings have an attitude that the leadership is there to spank them, on God’s behalf, of course. Such a limited understanding of what true grace is. I always wonder who is spanking the leaders, on God’s behalf, of course–seems to me that there is an immunity card for their misbehavior.
okrapod wrote:
And street gangs.
This is one of ISIS’s main Social Media recruiting appeals, to where counter-propaganda about ISIS’s brutality only makes them more appealing — WE SO BADASS! (i.e. WE DO FOR REAL WHAT YOU DO IN GRAND THEFT AUTO!)
When I first started working in an ancillary medical field, I met many nurses from the background that you describe, Okrapod…they were both oftentimes excellent clinically, but among the best senses of humor of people I met in that field. Not all standards that are tough are abusive.
Lea wrote:
Re both of these: Look at the Islamic Republic of Iran. Religious Authorities controlling government in the name of a God whose Omnipotent Will is all Omnipotent POWER and CONTROL.
Steve240 wrote:
Just like L Ron Hubbard!
The one major difference I have observed among abusive church leadership is what ‘snowflakes’ they are. To offer even gentle critique to them or question them is so offensive to them that they will cut of communication (manipulative in itself) as well as proclaim it gossip and slander even if only spoken to them.
I am glad for true toughness, founded in faith–I have occasionally seen it, always clothed in true, operational humility in my 40+ years in the Kingdom–but never in an abusive setting.
These ‘snowflake’ leaders would never survive in a legitimate meritocracy that many professional fields demand. The church, for these men, has become a refuge for scoundrels.
@ okrapod:
I remember that place well as a kid. Over on Barret Ave is where it was when I was young. My mom knew a lot of people who worked there. When you were sick in the hospital, you wanted one of those nurses to attend you.
Good tough.
Burwell wrote:
The Jesuits have been referred to (by third parties, never by themselves) as “Vatican Green Berets” and/or “Vatican Marine Corps”. They were founded by a Basque nobleman/Spanish Army Officer and many of them ARE ex-military.
Note that this nickname came from third parties, NOT the Jesuits themselves. That’s a major difference between the two.
Cousin of Eutychus wrote:
Not just snowflakes, but Speshul Little Snowflakes.
I run into more than enough Speshul Little Snowflakes in my job; you think I want to run into any more in my church?
Alan House wrote:
“Probably more so than Campus Crusade….”
I am shocked that you used the word “probably.” From what I have seen with Campus Crusade they basically didn’t practice any authoritarianism. As the saying goes the difference would be like night and day comparing the two groups. MM considered themselves a church and taught leaders had “authority” over regular members.
It really isn’t surprising that Darville hasn’t been open or advertising his experience and start with Maranatha Ministries. I have seen this reported with other former Maranatha leaders where they have hidden their involvement with the group.
A combination of youth and arrogance and other issues lead to the group’s downfall despite maybe originally well intentions. The below talks about the spirit of control and even PTS members needed to recover from:
http://www.charismamag.com/blogs/fire-in-my-bones/7311-breaking-free-from-the-spirit-of-control
As I shared on my WW guest post, one person wrote a book claiming to tell the history of Maranatha Ministries but left out just how arrogant these leaders were. Shockingly that book was titled “Raising Jesus ….” Interesting to use that verbiage about a group with such a history of abuse.
Deb wrote:
Lets hope Darville’s latest venture doesn’t go 12 years.
Muff Potter wrote:
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, there are a lot of practical atheists acting as spokesmen for God…
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Excellent point, HUG! I bristle, as I believe Nancy2 does as well, at those who call themselves such things as “God’s Green Berets.”
Special Forces? Hardly. More like, Speshul Farces.
dee wrote:
Yes, imagine if in his bio he had said “I was involved in a cult -well, as a lead figure in a cult- for 12 years.” How would that go over?
Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
Just that at Cal Poly Pomona (1975-78) we had Campus Crusade. I was involved off-and-on with them, and yes they were into sometimes-deceptive high-pressure salesmanship. In retrospect, their doctrine of “multiplying ministry” also had the aroma of a pyramid scheme.
Then we had the Navigators, who seemed to be one step beyond CCC; I was never involved with them, but they had a reputation for the Most On-Fire, the most extreme, the most burnouts, and the most flunk-outs. (JMJ over at Christian Monist is an ex-Nav; he describes a LOT of similar abusive attitudes and situations as a lot of the churches covered here.)
We did not have Maranatha, but we had a local group called “Studies in the Word of God” which filled their niche as more Navigator than the Navigators. Now they got weird. I’d been on the fringe of a shepherding cult in junior college, and these had much of the same vibe. And a couple real doozies.
It was like a game of Who Is More Christian/Can You Top This? Like the stories about X-treme Jihadi Muslims in mosque slamming their foreheads on the floor during prayer (public devotions) hard enough to give them concussions to show all the Lukewarms around them how Devout they are.
Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
Navigators’ emphasis on Bible memory is a strong point which served me and Gramp3 very well, including in the Late Unpleasantness at our most recent former church. Of course, we were out of college and had some real-world experience when we encountered Navs, so maybe that is what made the difference in our takeaway. We do know one couple who was on staff who went off into some strange extreme theology, but I do not think there was any connection between Nav teaching and that particular situation.
@ dee:
oh, dee, i think about you so much. imagining what things are like right now.
i’m in similar circumstances, but not as far along as yours. i take courage from your strength and your own courageousness, knowing i’m not alone in these scary, tiring, emotionally very hard things. we’ve never met, of course. but this virtual thing we’ve got going on here — i feel i know you.
Lea wrote:
But, but, but…he was repentant!
Speaking of salesmen and college ministries, Matt Chandler fits that mold, too, IIRC. It seems that the main qualification nowadays for ministry in the SBC is the size of the crowd you can draw and/or who you know.
Christiane wrote:
That is the description of most tyrants, there’s something unformed in them, emotionally they are small children or infants.
Our three year old in a tantrum threw an old cell phone at my wife the other day, hit her squarely in the eye, now she has a black eye (which probably makes the neighbors think I’m abusive–LOL). Believe me, he was disciplined. This behavior may be over the top, self-centered, lacking in concern for others, but it’s not necessarily a sign of something horribly wrong in a three year old that time and discipline and prayer cannot remedy. But with the tyrant, the malignant narcissist, who’s brain–and perhaps spirit–are damaged and who never formed bona fide empathy like 97% of the population, they go into adulthood with these same impulses–they’re still a violent, massively narcissistic three year old, just in a full-sized body. The ones who don’t learn to control their impulses for public consumption wind up incarcerated, the ones who do learn to control them tend to steer clear of too much trouble and lust for power to satiate their urge to hurt others and draw all attention to themselves. Unfortunately, the pulpit, particularly of many of the modern breeds of rapacious, entrepreneurial, authoritarian churches, are ideal places for these profoundly damaged people to vent their violent impulses, pretty much a magnet for this crowd, as recent research out of Canada demonstrates (i.e., pastors surveyed who are under 40 are approximately 13 times more likely to have full blown NPD than the general population).
Bookbolter wrote:
In defense of some salesmen I’ve found two types, one who has a good product and knows all about it, and the manipulative type that uses any and every trick to hook you. While all too many will hire the trickster to sell, I figure all of us prefer to buy from the other guy, the one who knows his product well. Darville sounds like the type of sales guy I abhor, he doesn’t know his product and I wouldn’t buy what he is selling.
Nancy2 wrote:
You mean when Wartburg Watch turned into The Elizabeth Scold Show?
dee wrote:
Hebrews 13 comes *after* Hebrews 11. If someone bothers to read the context before they yank out the Obey Your Leaders clobber verse in chapter 13. That is the conservative method of Bible interpretation, but these guys are neither conservative nor interested in reading the Bible verses in their proper contexts.
Deb wrote:
They are worthy of DOUBLE HONOR!!! Paul said so, they believe it (or at least what they want to believe Paul meant), and that settles it.
Gram3 wrote:
Didn’t RevKev come out of college ministry too or something? I don’t know if there is a common theme there or if that is simply the starting point for a lot of people…
Gram3 wrote:
Interesting, for me that was a weakness. My mind was largely incapable of memorizing back then and is useless for it now. Their emphasis was such that when I simply couldn’t do it they had no place for me. I can process and analyze with the best of people, but memorize no. At least in my locale the emphasis on memorization was a legalism and I still react to the stigma associated with it. When someone says “write Gods word on your heart” I have to to process my emotional response and not gag.
Gram3 wrote:
And they don’t even know their Koine Greek–or care about it unless it serves their own selfish interests–because one cannot derive anything like the absolute obedience demanded by the cult leader hammering his flock with Heb 13:17 out of the actual word in the Greek, “peitho”, that is translated as “obey”. In terms of context, a multitude of other verses in the NT on the responsibilities of leaders (for just one example among many: the mandate to lead, if at all, by godly example alone, never compulsion), Jesus’ pronouncements and examples on leadership and the form it would take.
They lose by every possible reasonable analysis. But they don’t care, because they win by force and abuse and lies. They get what they think they want–for a time. One day they’ll face God.
mot wrote:
Jared Wilson commended Doug Wilson for his “Penetrate Conquer Colonize Plant” view of marital intimacy. When people objected, he whined that he was misunderstood and that people had a reading comprehension problem. Then he finally took down both posts he made defending Doug Wilson and himself.
Jared is so gospel-saturated and gospel-centered that he cannot see Jesus who embodies the Gospel.
Scolded dog wrote:
There is so much evil and abuse that is allowed to flourish simply because most Christians are convinced it is wrong to talk to each other. Any kind of sharing of information gets defined as “gossip” and it is used against us to control. Good for you for talking to each other!
Gudbrand wrote:
Is it true, though, that they still have designs on obtaining the church resources?
Gram3:
I asked the following question at this blog site: “Is this division of a “church” necessary for the church to be Calvinistic if it is not already?
It did get published and here is the answer from Jared :”Tom, I’m not sure I understand the question. Could you restate it?
(The post has nothing to do with Calvinism, for what it’s worth.)”
So his post has nothing to do with Calvinism–rolling my eyes.
@ BL:
“Maybe we should put together a bullet list of the absolute requirements of a Scriptural leader?”
+++++++
if memory serves, i think the list will be quite short. add to it the character expectations which apply to everyone, and it might be a little longer.
this pastor obsession in christian culture (lead pastor, executive pastor, teaching pastor, discipleship pastor, youth pastor, nextgen pastor, worship pastor, small groups pastor, men’s pastor, BBQ pastor, scuba pastor,….) is quite a thing to behold.
i’m astonished how many FT careers they can ring out of just one word that shows up innocuously just one time in the NT. and all the powers granted to them (& salary brackets), all ‘gospel-mandated’….??? it’s the most preposterous thing.
it’s all pretend, make-believe.
like the world i used to create at age 4 with my multi-colored blocks, tinker toys, and fisher-price people. or with my barbie, skipper, francie & ken dolls and the barbie airplane, the barbie country camper, the barbie beach bus, inflatable furniture and loads of other tiny accessories to create the imaginary world.
christians (like americans in general, i’m told by my european relatives & friends) take themselves so seriously — to ridiculous proportions. pastors especially.
kindness, selflessness, lead by example, resistance to self-enrichment, self-discipline, self-control…. while not always easy, it’s not complicated.
the bullet list of the absolute requirements of a Scriptural leader will be short. what will be long is the list of things absolutely not required of said leader.
mot wrote:
What you really need to have him do is define what he means by “Gospel;” not because you don’t know what it means but because of the way he is using the term. If the “Gospel” is dividing existing places of worship, there is something wrong with his gospel.
BL wrote:
That is also where YRR (primarily Baptist) and Federal Vision (primarily Reformed) kiss. Doug Wilson is not an accident. He desires to rule. Gospel Glitterati Global is not an accident. They desire to rule. Hence the Gospel Glitterati promotion of the likes of Doug Wilson which would be unthinkable in any sane world.
Gram3 wrote:
His assumption is that whatever these churches were doing before they got there wasn’t the real gospel. They are the only one’s who actually know.
But it’s not about Calvinism. Right.
dee wrote:
Like all the ministers who proof-text and ignore situations Paul was addressing when they twist scripture and say that women can’t do this, women can’t do that, etc.
BL wrote:
Very good points, I appreciate this because our abusive pastor claimed to be a “prophet” – he said that God spoke directly to him *audibly* and as a result, he felt he was speaking with total authority. (All of the “prophecies” God supposedly gave him were about how we needed to obey the pastor without question and without understanding where we were going ahead of time.) That definition of prophecy is so often used as license to abuse.
The word used for prophecy in the NT has as part of it’s meaning, “a gifted faculty of setting forth and enforcing revealed truth.” One does not need to reveal a new thing in order to prophesy: bringing the full meaning out of the revealed word of God is also defined as prophecy. Jesus demonstrated this when he revealed the meaning of the then-existing scriptures to the disciples on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24).
So, even if one is a cessationist, there is still a gift of prophecy to be practiced. Some persons are especially gifted at understanding and communicating the scriptures.
https://www.billmounce.com/greek-dictionary/propheteia
Darlene wrote:
Or perhaps a really skillful… stage actor. 😉
elastigirl wrote:
Oooo! Excellent point.
BL wrote:
WOW.
You know, if you replace “God” with “the god of this world” through the whole statement, it makes perfect sense.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
LOL,
Headless …. I think Bill M. got it right: the irony of ‘Elizabeth’ showing up and saying ‘you don’t know everything’ in defense of Darville,
and the terrific WW research finding the seminal source of Darville’s ‘Christian’ formation inside of the Maranatha cult.
‘Irony’ is right! Without probing, after Elizabeth’s ‘warning’ that WW was missing something about Darville, would we ever be able to track the ‘cross-over’ between the his training in abusing vulnerable people at Maranatha and his practice as a neo-Cal pastor abusing a traditional Southern Baptist Church.
I kinda wonder:
1. what heresies converged to form ‘Maranatha’ cult?
2. how have the Maranatha cult heresies diverged to become recycled into neo-Cal practices of abuse today?
Darville’s Maranatha connection was the KEY to figuring out a whole bunch of ‘trends’ and ‘patterns’ and ‘Elizabeth’ may have smugly referred to some hidden knowledge she had of this connection,
and DEB unearths the truth by connecting the dots and exploring the gaps
I love it. Irony indeed.
mot wrote:
This is my opinion and that is all it is. But I think that Calvinism is not the real point with these guys. I think that spiritual pride and power over people is their real purpose, along with money. Calvinism happens to be a convenient hook to appeal to young people who are rejecting the generic evangelicalism or seeker roll-your-own evangelicalism of their parents. It is the cool thing right now just like charismatic renewal was once the cool thing.
At some level, I believe that they know that they could not make a similar living in the real world, and that is why they puff up the importance of the institutional church. That serves the purpose of puffing up their own significance, their virtue, and their income. I believe that explains the extreme changes in doctrine of Mahaney, Mohler, and Darville. They adapt to meet their core personal needs. I have seen this one other time in a PCA pastor. Sometimes instability and rigidity go hand-in-glove.
From the Tar Heel article:
Notice how Darville uses the Christian definition of a theological cult, in order to dodge that label. He doesn’t address the definition of a sociological cult, which includes elements of high control of members’ lives and milieu, and abusive, demeaning treatment. Because he claims to have dotted all the doctrinal “i”s, he can say, “Maranatha is not a cult.”
In the words of Enid Strict, “How conveeeeenient…”
roebuck wrote:
I posted a link earlier to an article by Mary DeMuth on 13 traits of predators-
http://www.marydemuth.com/predatory-people/
If you read through that list (or any list of the traits of predatory/NPD/control freak type of people, for the matter) and then think about what the pulpit can potentially offer, my question is, how could the pulpit *not* attract such people consistently? It really is THE ideal position in this type of person’s eyes.
I wish I knew the solution to this problem, but I think you touched on it in that the believers are, regrettably, gullible chumps. The average church member is not a Berean. It’s been noted above that Darville’s failure in this church goes back to the fact that too many of the members knew the Bible well for themselves.
elastigirl wrote:
Yes, I think it is. But it works for them, so it must be good, right?
Deb wrote:
Watch out, Methodists! You’re in the crosshairs too!
Fer pity’s sake, why don’t these folks just get nice jobs stocking produce somewhere? Then we could truly know them by their fruits.
Lea wrote:
Jared’s post fits with the post by Greg Gilbert at 9Marks about how to take over a church surreptitiously. The ends justify the means to get to gospel-centered church which is really pastor-centered church. What continually shocks me is that they publish what they think with no seeming insight into how their playbook looks to people who know what the Bible actually says. They are seriously disordered and cannot see it.
@ BL:
“On the Maranatha connection:
Rice Broocks, Phil Bonasso, Steve Murrell, Jim Laffoon; all Maranatha leaders. When Maranatha ‘decentralized’, many of the leaders kept right on going and simply changed the names of their ‘ministries’…..Every Nation,..”
++++++++++
oh my goodness — Every Nation, Jim Laffoon,….. names from my past. from 2nd Church of Dysfunction i was unfortunate enough to be a part of.
First it was an MFI church, in the shepherding tradition, then it closed (died a slow death due to attrition-with-cause), and those remaining were absorbed into the Every Nation church.
i always assumed church was a good thing, and that its leaders were worthy of my trust. had never heard of shepherding, etc. was completely without knowledge of the intrigue of what went on before which generated the present. i had innocently assumed it amounted to jesus christ.
after extracting myself & family from the sticky web of it all and coming to, i started researching to try to find the answer to… what just happened?
oh my goodness, the things i have found out. the things we all have learned from sources like TWW. if i had known then what i know now, i would spared myself years of mess, misery, and loss.
religion has dangerous potential, christianity included. it is vital to learn and understand the what, why, when, how, and who of any christian institution.
posts like these at TWW are necessary.
Christiane wrote:
Yes, probably a bit more than ‘Elizabeth’ bargained for. But when this new character shows up, posting out of the blue, says they’re an uninvolved outsider (thus objective), yet somehow knows the inside True Facts (but “I can’t tell you how I know”), and they personally know that Darville is a great loving guy (but they are totally outsiders and objective), well, that just pegs the ol’ BS meter. These sock puppets are not particularly subtle…
siteseer wrote:
Hi SITESEER,
well, if some of the current Neo-Cal incoming pastors’ treatment of stealth and division of traditional Churches is examined, maybe we will find out if the pastoral training at the Seminary reflects that people KNEW the truth about Darville when he came to the Seminary, and incorporated some of the ‘techniques’ of Maranatha cult practices by recycling them and prepping the young neo-Cal pastors to make use of them ‘in the field’. Conjecture? I’m not sure about that. I was watching a video of a young lady who spent six years in the Maranatha cult (she joined in college), and her experiences in the cult seemed to ring a bell …. my goodness, where have I heard this stuff before? Victims of Abuse at the hands of neo-Cal takeovers? Conjecture on my part? Or just a red light going on.
This excerpt from the second Tar Heel article caught my eye:
“The Maranatha organization is involved in numerous campus Christian groups… and fights against abortion and the Equal Rights Amendment.” (emphasis mine)
I can understand them opposing legalized abortion… but equal rights? What exactly were they against? Voting rights? Equal pay?
Does anyone know more about this? I wonder if they were at the forefront of the Female Subordination movement.
siteseer wrote:
I guess that’s how it’s going to be, as long as ‘going to church’ is undertaken as a superficially ‘nice thing to do, socially acceptable’. All the millions of supposed Christians in this country – I wonder how many of them ever, ever crack a Bible, or think about Jesus other than on Sunday morning…
Speaking of which here is the latest post I did. Its a primer on repentance. What is it? What are indicators that repentance has occurred? Its tied into the situation at Community Evangelical Free Church
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/06/23/a-primer-on-repentance-what-are-indicators-that-repentance-has-occurred/
Nancy2 wrote:
I get a kick out of these wanna-be(s) too. I’ve always said that women make the best shooters. The Wehrmacht learned the hard way on the Eastern Front (1941-1945). Today’s me-macho-monkey types can’t hold a candle to Lyudmila Pavlichenko, Roza Shanina, and a host of other unsung Russian women who fought and died bravely.
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
To avoid just that sort of hair-splitting, I usually reference the shep/disc as a christian-cult.
Skips right over attempts to hide that it was a cult by narrowing the definition.
This is a critique of an article featured at Desiring God. Its about going to war to save the un-born. I write about how some evangelicals go to war for the unborn only to not give a damn after the child is abused after birth.
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/06/20/sean-demars-at-desiring-god-going-to-war-for-the-unborn-only-to-not-give-a-damn-when-children-are-sexually-abused-after-they-are-born/
@ Bill M:
Yes, absolutely! I didn’t mean to cast aspersions on the men and women who are honest, hard working people who know how to make any transaction a win-win situation. I know they’re out there, and when I run across someone like that they have a customer for life.
Gram3 wrote:
Yes! They just write it all in black and white and people still don’t see. He is quite blatant in his assumptions – that the church wasn’t gospelly before he got there, that they just ‘hate change’ rather than this specific change, that anyone with complaints is just a whiner. Ugh.
Aimee seems to have finally gotten fed up with some of the comp nonsense and just wrote a nice article about it, but honestly, it’s been there all along and she’s just now seeing it?
Excellent job researching this! When he doesn’t name the ministry he was in, and just refers to it as “church planting”, someone needed to reveal the truth. Full disclosure, job well done.
I would certainly challenge his assertion that he was a church planter and pastor during those 12 years. That is false. I remember this organization which was headquartered in Gainesville during my educational period in the 80s and 90s. He didn’t “plant churches”. He was a group leader of students. They called the groups of students they brainwashed “churches” and the brain washers “pastors”. The man falsified his credentials and should have been fired for that alone.
I also remember the “Crossroads” church in Gainesville which was part of the International Churches of Christ”. Another cult preying on gullible college students like Maranantha.
I do remember that ministry
@ Muff Potter:
“Today’s me-macho-monkey types can’t hold a candle to Lyudmila Pavlichenko,….”
+++++++++++
love the monkey, circus trope. so apt.
Gram3 wrote:
But that’s just it, Gram3 – I think they are counting on there not being all that many people who know what the Bible actually says. And it seems like they’re correct in that assessment. And on the rare occasions when they try to play games with a congregation that does have a confident familiarity with the Bible, they run away…
Catherine wrote:
What an important point!
Recently TWW comments talked about mandatory tithing vs. keeping track of donations. I have always belonged to churches that use generally accepted accounting practices to log donations and provide a form each year, so that households can claim tax deductions. This practice encourages charitable giving in the USA. (Some folks might think it violates Matthew 6:3, but all giving can now be done electronically, so it’s actually less visible than dropping anything into an offering plate… just food for thought.) 🙂
But I have NEVER belonged to a church that asks how much money people have. And good luck figuring that out about anybody. Our clergy are not informed of specific amounts pledged, unless somebody wants to donate a building, I suppose–call it Matthew 6:3 Hall.
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
But don’t the neo-Cals preach ESS, which does in fact mess with BOTH ‘Who Christ Is’ and the ‘Doctrine of the Holy Trinity’ to the extent that bottom line: the ESS version of Christ is not compatible with ‘Christ is God’, no matter how fervently ESS supporters would deny this.
They tampered with a great Christian mystery. And they exposed themselves in the process as viewing Our Lord as a ‘submissive’ eternally, from the ‘ages to the ages’. No way is that compatible with “Christ Is God”.
Deb wrote:
http://everynation.proboards.com/thread/100/where
elastigirl wrote:
Credit for the original euphemism goes to mirele. I believe she was the one who said:
“Not my circus, not my monkeys.”
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
Supposedly equal pay and hiring had already become law. I believe that abortions rights were part of the ERA amendment. There may have also been a push toward Europianization via government funded maternal leave
Phyllis Schlafly was in the forefront of the anti-ERA coalition.
IIRC, bathrooms came up a lot in that debate as well. LOL.
Muff Potter wrote:
It’s a Polish proverb. And one I have used more than once… 😉
I was asked to leave the local leadership of a Navigator group in Germany in 1979. I asked questions such as: The Navigator definition of being a disciple demands a high level of literacy; what about people in the early church who could not read–were they disciples? Also,I wanted to invite non-Navigator related Christians to speak to our group–did not know that was forbidden. After several occasions where the local Nav-rep tried to humiliate me in front of the group (evidently I have a thick skin–I did not leave of my own initiative, I was excommunicated from the group and shunned. Honestly, in the long run, it was probably best for both of us. Again, though, passive-aggressive subterfuge before they finally got the spheres to openly excommunicate me.
elastigirl wrote:
Let’s not forget Brian Houston- “global senior pastor” 😉
I wonder how long until they branch into outer space? who will be first to name himself “universal pastor”? lol
BL wrote:
Raises interesting questions. Some of these campus cults have been challenged and driven out by denying them access to money that is paid through campus activity fees. Did Maranatha receive any funding or access to campus facilities? Was it permitted to use the name of the college in the name of the “church plant?” Did it have a covenant that was at odds with any college’s own charter? Did it require student officers to adhere to a special Maranatha creed that exceeded or contradicted the beliefs of even a Christian college?
Navigator reps were really varied regarding temperament and integrity, in my experience–many I know speak of great experiences with that organization. My experience was legalism, manipulation, sarcasm and ridicule of non-Navigator related ministries and ministers, isolation, and a sense of superiority over those who did not fit in with the Navigator Way. Hopefully, as an organization, they have grown out of that.
@ Tom R:
Thanks Tom. I agree with you that calling a group of college students a church is wrong. I appreciate your insights.
@BillM:
Re: “Their [Navs’] emphasis was such that when I simply couldn’t do it they had no place for me.”
Yikes. That was my son’s experience, too. Not with the memorization thing…it was other stuff. First they love-bombed him. Then, when he didn’t turn into a Piper-spouting clone, they dropped him. A few good friends stuck with him, but the shallower sorts turned all middle-school-beeyotchy. <–pardon my French
Christiane wrote:
I would put money on it. What is the probability that not only an entire church but also an entire seminary was totally clueless over a significant period of time. Good thought Christiane.
Cousin of Eutychus and HUG: Thanks for the insights. Fascinating!
Cousin of Eutychus wrote:
Sounds like the group that infiltrated (by invitation!) into the Air Force Academy in Colorado. That cult put a LOT of pressure on the cadets, even the ones who weren’t of the evangelical persuasion to begin with. I heard that Jewish cadets were openly harassed. There was some publicity about this, and I remember thinking WHO was responsible for inviting that cult to come in and dominate and harass the young cadets in that way. I mean, my gosh, it was a United States military academy.
elastigirl wrote:
2nd Church of Dysfunction – LOL. I guess I was a charter member of the same denom.
Dominionism and Kingdom Theology is the common thread between all these leaders.
Maranatha’s founder Bob Weiner authored “Take Dominion” described as
@ okrapod:
Hi OKRAPOD,
you know, I hope I’m wrong. But it doesn’t look good, does it?
Oops, clean up on aisle 9…
That is the religion that Dennis Darville promoted for 12 years, right up until the demise of that particular iteration of dominionism.
That’s the spiritual dna of all these people. The slight denominationl variations between them are nothing compared to the strength and depth of their common goal.
Please understand, I don’t think that ALL these leaders are having secret meetings and are colluding together – (though SOME of them do and have), but at their core they share the same desire to be the men who establish God’s kingdom on earth.
Some of them even teach that it is the church’s fault that Jesus hasn’t returned yet – because He is waiting for US to establish the kingdom on earth over which He will rule.
That false belief can provide a pretty big incentive to run roughshod over every and any one who might be slowing down the return of Jesus.
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
Interesting, given the claims stated in this document he seems to have signed? Is this our Dennis Darville?
http://www.faithdrivenconsumer.com/429926
Friend wrote:
Oh boy is THIS true. My no-frills cousin Junie lives in a plain old ram-shackle farm house in Western Massachusetts and owns half of the mountain, which she inherited from the aunts who raised her when her parents died. She’s plain as a old shoe. People have no clue how much she’s worth, and Junie ain’t tellin either. Typical Yankee down-to-earth modesty. I love that girl.
Lea wrote:
In defense of Aimee (and I have not read her latest post) I will say that I was in a similar position once. Until I was forced by truly awful circumstances to examine things a little more closely. Fear of displeasing God and probably a good dose of confirmation bias and willful ignorance kept me from even considering mutualism because I *assumed* the science was settled, so to speak. It seems that ESS was what caused her to sit up and say, “Enough” to the CBMW crew.
roebuck wrote:
Usually they are successful in running off the people who dare to question their Divinity. Maybe FBCRM is the beginning of a trend? Bent Tree Bible might be another. I really think it is going to take some time for the fruit of this thinking to become evident to some people. That may be when their daughters wind up married to one of these servant-LEADERS. Or it may be when significant numbers of wives of these guys petition for relief from the civil magistrates.
dee wrote:
I would add that church members should listen to their own traditions and cultures, as well. Those “frozen chosen” mainliners, for example, are not used to Sunday morning rock music, in-your-face preaching about submission, pseudo-scholarship about demons, etc. At times there’s safety in insisting on the status quo. Congregations should be able to figure out if they’re in a rut, or if they are saving something that is worth saving.
@ siteseer:
Hah. I don’t know of any “leaders” in that bunch (recovery). It devastated a lot of lives.
@ elastigirl:
They(leadership/staff/deacons) put doubt in ppls mind that those who had those kinds of experiences were just being divisive, or liars, some people thought it was so ridiculous it couldn’t possibly be true…another comment that went around was, “he is a sinner” just like us.
elastigirl wrote:
My sentiments exactly.
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
I was pretty young at the time, but feisty enough to like the concept of equal rights. I remember Jerry Falwell saying some nonsense about back when women couldn’t vote, the father’s vote represented the whole family (yeah right). Even then, I understood that as criticism about women being able to vote. I also remember seeing Phyllis Schlafly interviewed. Even at that young age I thought she was annoying.
Lea wrote:
What website is this? I’d like to read her article.
@Deb:
Here’s my favorite item from the screen shots:
“Darville faced many challenges in life as a college golfer”
I tried saying it out loud three times, just to savor the ridiculousness. Thank you.
BL wrote:
I think that the Dever-Mahaney bromance might explain a lot of what we see in Calvinista churches and “ministries.” Mahaney learned that Shepherding could be very profitable and franchising his business was easy. Dever has polish and brains and credentials and access to the resources of the SBC via other friends. Their marriage has certainly been successful when measured by the standards of worldly success, but from a strictly spiritual perspective their marriage is inexplicable to me. What could they possibly have in common other than a desire to expand their kingdoms?
On the non-Calvinista Reformed side, we have the infiltration of wacky Reconstructionists and their reconstituted and re-branded Federal Vision ecclesiastical power elites into PCA churches. It is not widely known, but Reformed seminaries are influenced by these nuts, including Westminster, Covenant, and RTS.
Jesus rejected Power Religion when Satan offered it to him. When “pastors” get on the power religion bandwagon, we are justified in asking how they are imitating Jesus.
Friend wrote:
ROFL! Thanks for highlighting this – I managed to miss it the first time through.
Patriciamc wrote:
I think it’s called housewife theologian: http://www.alliancenet.org/mos/housewife-theologian/the-silence-of-our-friends#.V2wsVKpf0eg
Gram3 wrote:
I’m not mad at her, I just find her frustrating sometimes.
@ Gram3:
Better late than never. We've been ranting for OVER SEVEN YEARS!
BL wrote:
Chameleon + wolf = “wolfmeleon”
Friend wrote:
I have known people who were required to bring in documentation of their income and told how much they were required to give but I can’t remember what denomination they were.
One elderly couple were actually sent to collections because they could not keep up the tithe on their fixed income!
siteseer wrote:
I haven’t read the back story to this post or all the comments here, but as soon as he started talking about planting churches on college campi with no theological training I knew it had to be Maranatha. Anyone who did ministry with CCC or IVCF would never call them churches and would just say the name of the ministry.
The fact that he doesn’t name the name or openly distance himself from the name tells me volumes.
siteseer wrote:
What???
I think ‘don’t give these people access to your bank account’ should be on the list somewhere…
@ mot:
That's the funniest thing I've read in a while.
Lea wrote:
I give her some slack, because I know how incredible some of man’s religiousy terms and concepts can be.
Those who accept them at ‘face value’, have usually obscured the reality of the concept with butterflies and flowers, because they don’t take into consideration the worse case scenarios.
That would be just too negative.
Here’s a keeper:
No need to wonder, they are NOT interested in listening to women. Most certainly not in the public arena. The Bayly Bros proved that abundantly when they ripped into Rachel Miller regarding her abundant sin, in response to her having the audacity to substantiate Doug Wilson’s plagiarism.
From my experience, definitions do not matter when dealing with the patriarchy or the authorities.
Because no matter how a concept is defined with words, it is always their actions that prove the actual definition.
THAT’s when you find out what it really means.
That’s what it always meant.
It’s just that you (rhetorical you) don’t realize it, until you step outside the undefined bounds and find yourself face-to-face with it.
Lea wrote:
Very interesting post. It seems like she’s beginning to see through the veneer. I think, for many of us Christian women, it does take an experience or development in our lives to finally open our eyes to the reality behind the hollow words. She is fairly young, right?
Lea wrote:
Thank you!
Oh, over on Practical Theology for Women, which is Calvinist, they’re debating ESS. I don’t go there often because it can get pretty frustrating. A week or so ago, they started with the conclusion that women can’t be elders, then looked at all the examples of women prophesying and praying in public and tried to make these instances fit their conclusion. Obviously, there was a bit of proof-texting involved.
BL wrote:
I don’t just disagree with the Baylys; I think there’s something deeply wrong there.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
LOL – love it!
Gram3 wrote:
Same here, Gram. It took me many years of Bible study to finally put things together and realize, these couple passages are really at odds with everything else in the NT, can they really mean what they seem to be saying at face value?
siteseer wrote:
God is prophesying through me that you pewisioners need to obey me without question…
Well – Quelle surprise!
That’s not prophecy. I put that right up there with blasphemy – attributing to God your own lust for power.
I sometimes think it would be SOOO marvelous if the angel of the Lord would smite ’em all while they’re spewing this nonsense from the pulpit, with a good dose of Zachariah silence for a few months…
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
At the time there was a large movement against the Equal Rights Amendment (ed.) I don't know what all arguments were used, but the really big one I heard all over the place had to do with military conscription. As in, equal rights means that women will have to serve in the military-get drafted-and all the abuses of women that were said to accompany that.
So, behold, though we do not have a draft right now and we did not adopt the equal rights amendment we have the issue of requiring women to register for the draft 'now that they can go into combat.' This seems to be one of the issues that just won't go away.
okrapod wrote:
Oops. Should be ‘against the Equal Rights Amendment’
Patriciamc wrote:
Well, whatever it is, it is topped with a thick icing of smug.
Here’s how much they want to listen to women:
Can you just smell the fumes of righteous indignation?
It gets even better, they go on to say –
That right there sums up how the MEN are defining ‘complementary’.
And when they say “When women such as Dr. Valerie Hobbs and Ms. Rachel Miller publicly admonish and rebuke men…”
They in no way mean that there exists a BETTER sort of women than Hobbs & Miller who could do this – no.
There will be NO Christian women of ANY quality that can EVER publicly admonish a ‘church officer’.
.
There’s a recent church plant in Rocky Mount called Redeemer Church (where Man Camp was held). The youth pastor from Nashville Baptist (10 minutes down the road) left to then start this new church in an area that already has arguably 5 large healthy like-minded churches. You can probably guess who the people are that fill the chairs? People already attending other churches. What’s the point? And further, why after the split did Darville&Co have to start a brand new church?
Here’s my take – this is a job. These men are seemingly highly educated with masters degrees and they can’t or won’t do anything else? What is the deal with all these conferences, books, and church plants? Do I really have to fill my book shelves with books with the most recent fashionable colors and hip drawings and cool catch phrases by Piper, Chandler, Greear, Chan, Mohler, and whoever else that are simply rewriting the same things said before them by other men or women? Why do these men and pastors feel like they have to churn out book after book and speech after speech? Why attend TGC’s millionth conference with the same staple men and up’n coming preacher boys? It’s a waste of money, resources, time, and whatever else.
Also, what is with the self-flaggelation? According to Calvinism, we can barely make a decision about lunch without sinning.
BL wrote:
The bible may say something about women in church (arguably), but it says nothing about the internet! Women rebuking men on the internet are being entirely in keeping with scripture, but being discerning and looking for good teaching. Women are never ever told to just accept idiotic things blindly because they come from men.
BL wrote:
Wait, is he saying disagreeing with men is like being gay? I missed that before.
I think those Bayley folks have a screw loose. They are this close to being found in a compound, assuming they could lure in any followers.
Lea wrote:
You made me think of this:
Jesus speaking:
BL wrote:
It was shortly after I left an authoritarian church that it was hit by lightening that blew out all the computer and electronic equipment and lightening is a relatively rare occurrence here. No, I don’t think it was God smiting them, if anything maybe it was God’s sense of humor. Whenever I see the word smite I picture the old “Far Side” cartoon, the one with the guy walking under the suspended piano and God’s finger poised over the “smite” key.
@ okrapod:
Paige Patterson was the Prez of SEBTS before Akin. It had years of a top/down Fundy bent with big doses of Patriarchy in its DNA.
I think Darville’s time in Maranatha was probably more of a plus for him at SEBTS than a negative. And Akin has been pro Mahaney, Pro Driscoll, etc.
@ Unepetiteanana:
Love your comment!
@ BL:
I forgot how funny the Baylys are. I always picture Dan Akroyd on SNL reading their stuff aloud.
Where is that smite key when you need it, Bayly Bros?
Lydia wrote:
Akroyd’s an exponent of his craft, and yeah, it would be hilarious!
@ BL:
It is more like being a Matthew 5 kingdom while on this earth. No “establishing” as in establishment.
But that sort of kingdom living is not glamorous nor does it bring power to rule others. The true effect is exactly the opposite.
They twist concepts so people wont see the real meaning. ‘Your Kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven’. They redefine what that looks like.
And now that God has two wills (one is secret) it can be twisted into just about anything. Yikes!
@ Lea:
Sorry Lea. But you still possess your female biological parts when you are typing or even using voice recognition. So, no go. It’s the plumbing that matters. Not the brain or soul.
Btw: my kids got on my iPad and changed my Siri to a man with a British accent who calls me honey bunny. Hee hee.
Patriciamc wrote:
Is there a venue for open womens’ discussions? I read books and articles, but often don’t find others to discuss issues like this with. Many church women I know don’t even want to engage such issues.
@ dee:
Kind of afraid he doesn’t care. The article was delivered to the Board of Directors by a contact, and still, they are meeting at Wesleyan.
ishy wrote:
I don’t know if this is what you’re looking for, but Practical Theology is written by a woman who used to work at Mars Hill Seattle and left after having a bad experience (is there any other kind?). She writes from a Calvinist and comp perspective, although she’s not as comp as other people are. People can leave comments on her articles.
Lydia wrote:
I would just imagine the CBMW crowd has changed their Siri to male. Can’t take directions from a female, you know. (Last time I talked to Siri, I asked her if Jon Snow was dead.)
Patriciamc wrote:
I was hoping for something a little more general in subjects, as I come here for these discussions. I’m not married, and I find the groups in church that discuss womens’ issues only talk within marriage contexts, and often with little research and study. It’s a bit frustrating.
The cult business about no dating is interesting. Or the assumption that if a woman says ‘hello’ to a man in some kind of introductory arrangement, they are committing to a marriage with that man ….
I wonder. There was some talk a while back about the Christian Mingle site, where some young women reported that they met someone who turned out being inappropriate, and when the women severed the connection, the men became irate and began a ‘stalking’ attempt to convince the lady that they were ‘intended’ for one another.
Is it possible that the stalkers were conditioned under some kind of cult thinking where a young man and woman just meeting initially was heavily weighted with commitment for an engagement and future marriage?
It gives me chills what that kind of thinking can turn a young man into, and if the young man is the least bit unstable, it could get very dangerous for unsuspecting girls on a site like Christian Mingle.
ishy wrote:
What kind of women’s issues do you want to talk about?
Bill M wrote:
Hah! That’s a good one. I’m a Farside fan.
This Farside https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXUq5FPWkAE9ftn.jpg would be another good ‘smite’ for them – if we could just pack ’em up and make them be members in each other’s churches for 6 months or so. 😉
Lydia wrote:
Too bad.
And I want a British man Siri!!!
Lydia wrote:
Uh huh, kind of somewhat similar to that theory as to how original sin is passed down through the generations. Who was that? Augustine of Hippo, I think.
Christiane wrote:
There is alway that male fantasy in which some woman says ‘hello’ while passing in the hall the man is justified in thinking ‘she wants me.’
You know, I always wondered what would happen to all of the leaders and followers of these “extreme” campus groups… I distinctly remember CCC speakers telling me, when I was an undergrad, the best thing I could do with my life is go “on staff with them” so I could save more souls.. since that is the most important thing in life…
About 25 years ago, i remember a guy dropping out of his PhD. program in computer science to go “on staff” with Great commission ministries… he later went back, finished his Ph.D., and is now a professor at a Christian College (he went through a significant amount of stress because of this pressure)
Christiane wrote:
This happened to me regularly at Liberty U., and has a few times with Christian guys since. I had guys “inform” me we were dating and tell other people we were dating without asking me. Then there were a few that stalked me for long periods of time and ignored me when I said no, and kept following me when I blocked every avenue. I got three marriage proposals from guys I didn’t know at Liberty.
One guy lied and tried to trick me into dating him by telling me to come to a large group of friends thing, which was really a double date. He told other people we were going on a date before it happened, and one called and told me. So I didn’t go. He kept calling, insisting it was just a group of friends and that I “had” to come.
One physically sexually harassed me, I reported him to authorities, and my “friends” told me I was being mean to a “nice” guy. Anytime I spoke about anything he would look at the ceiling or the wall like I was invisible. I kept telling him no, and he kept stalking me at a distance with calls and messages. A couple years later I caught him cornering another woman who was trying to get away from him.
All Christians. And often many other people defended them and criticized me for being picky or told me that if a Christian guy asked me out, I should automatically say yes.
So, you can imagine, I’m a rather vocal supporter of more awareness in the church about womens’ issues and sexual harassment.
Burwell wrote:
Thanks, Burwell.
Nancy2 wrote:
And that’s why the YRR can run roughshod over good church folks with no qualms about it. When you are sure you had your ticket punched to glory before the foundation of the earth, why bother living holy and pure lives in the now?
Lea wrote:
Including subjects like this, but also living out faith, being a Christian woman, women in the Bible. Just more general. I chat at reddit with just about everybody in any range of faith, but the Christian-focused subreddits tend to be either really angry or really fundamentalist (or neo Cal).
When I was a college freshman, there was a cult called “The Way”. It was specifically planted around college campuses and pretty high control. For $85.00 they would “teach” you to speak in tongue! Fortunately, I had friends in IVCF and I quickly realized how corrupt The Way was and got out after four months in. II actually became a believer through IVCF.
Interestingly, I saw one of the “twigs” (what the Way called members) at my 40th h.s. reunion and she was still involved with an offshoot of The Way. She was very friendly, but I could not get away fast enough! After all these years, just seeing her made me anxious.
Dennis had twelve years of authority over young, impressionable minds. That gave him great practice in manipulation and intimidation. What a conman. As L. Ron Hubbard (Scientology), said: “if you want to get rich, start a religion”!
Dee and Deb, I am amazed at all you do and the compassion you have shown others. I pray for you both and your families as you go through difficult times. Ann
Lydia wrote:
Well that kingdom Jesus talked about – for some reason that kingdom didn’t have anything about “Blessed are those who rule…”
The Patriarchal Beatitudes:
Blessed are those who pee standing up, for they shall be rulers.
Blessed are the males, for they shall inherit the authority.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for power, for they shall be satisfied.
Blessed are the masculine, for they shall receive authority.
Blessed are the pure in doctrine, for they shall be godly.
Blessed are the kingmakers, for they shall be called princes of God.
Blessed are you when you persecute the rebellious for the kingdom’s sake, for theirs is the kingdom of submission & discipline.
Blessed are you when others honor you and praise you and utter all kinds of compliments about you falsely on My account.
Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great here on earth, for so were the prophets before you who established my kingdom on earth.
Just sit back and bask in the humility of the servant-leaders!
There were never any calls from Darville’ s pulpit for accepting Christ or to join FBC. in fact, Darville said from the pulpit the church cannot just accept people walking down the aisle professing faith because you just did not know their motive. I don’t recall any Baptisms during his tenure, and absolutely none that Carville performed. Excellent manipulator evidenced by hiring staff and members children as interns.
I’m not in the SBC now, and am in a distinctly Arminian church.
But I would love for the SBC to have a whole slew of Calvinist pastors like one we had many years ago.
To be brief, his understanding of the tulip was:
T=you are affected by the fall for the worse body mind and spirit. Nothing got missed. Wonderful as you might be, you would be even more wonderful if you were what God originally designed.
U=God unilaterally decided to save only those who put their trust in Christ. (This implies He allows choice to accept or refuse salvation.)
L=atonement is limited in benefit to those found in Christ. Unbelievers will not be saved.
I=irresistible grace means that all found in Christ will be sanctified and glorified, made like Christ. How hard or easy that is will depend on your attitude.
P=perseverance means God will never give up on you no matter how you foul up or give up on Him.
And then he said to go and read E Y Mullins, and Hershel Hobbs, and act like Baptists by having no one in spiritual authority over us by Christ.
May God grant many Bro. Ron’s!
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Real Green Berets don’t go around bragging about being Green Berets. You won’t ever know someone is in SF unless 1.) you are very close to them, personally, or 2.) someone else tells you.
In most cases, the braggarts are liars ~~~ I wouldn’t be surprised if the same is true for those who call themselves “God’s Green Berets”!
@ elastigirl:
Just getting back on here. How it started….After a couple of members posted on facebook an article that was contrary to the covenant study darville was forcing on the church, a letter was sent by a deacon to one accusing her of being akin to satan himself for going against the pastor. The other was mentioned in the letter, along with others who didn’t toe the party line. The second person received an email from a “pastor” not only calling immediately for reconciliation, but was also full of lies about that person. From there, a small group of people began asking questions, and found out about the private meetings where members had the angry encounters with staff. People began to question everything that had been going on since darville had come to FBC, and he and the staff became aware of what was happening behind the scenes. His anger began to show from the pulpit with accusations and much “finger wagging” to the point where I decided to walk out if continued. At that point, “sermons” became chatisements, not Gospel filled lessons. Deacons were told to keep their wives in tow, and others were frozen out of their ministries by deacons and staff who followed darville without question. The smaller group of members who uncovered the information grew in number and tried to hold a meeting, according to the bylaws, to give the congregation the information they had discovered. But, they were stonewalled by “leaders” to protect darville, and keep others from knowing what had been done in secret. Members began to turn against each other and no one knew who to trust. We walked on pins and needles. Ultimately, as has been stated here, a confidence vote was called, and the “pastors” stood up and resigned. They won the vote, but either their egos wouldn’t accept 60%, or as most believe, they had their exit strategy planned way ahead. Though it hasn’t been that long, some of the details don’t come to me now; for the sake of my marriage I had to stop talking about it 24/7!
Max wrote:
AMEN! and you won’t find either model in the writings of the early Fathers either:
“For he who endeavours to amend the faults of human weakness ought to bear this very weakness on his own shoulders, let it weigh upon himself, not cast it off. For we read that the Shepherd in the Gospel (Luke 15:5) carried the weary sheep, and did not cast it off.
And Solomon says: “Be not overmuch righteous;” (Ecclesiastes 7:17) for restraint should temper righteousness.
For how shall he offer himself to you for healing whom you despise, who thinks that he will be an object of contempt, not of compassion, to his physician?
Therefore had the Lord Jesus compassion upon us in order to call us to Himself, not frighten us away. He came in meekness, He came in humility, and so He said:
“Come unto Me, all you that labour and are heavy laden, and I will refresh you.” (Matthew 11:28)
So, then, the Lord Jesus refreshes, and does not shut out nor cast off, and fitly chose such disciples as should be interpreters of the Lord’s will, as should gather together and not drive away the people of God.
Whence it is clear that they are not to be counted among the disciples of Christ, who think that harsh and proud opinions should be followed rather than such as are gentle and meek;
persons who, while they themselves seek God’s mercy, deny it to others . . .”
Ambrose, Father and Doctor of the Church (340-379 A.D.)
Atticus Finch wrote:
What???
These people astonish me.
Patriciamc wrote:
I have had so many of these convos I am a bit tired of them but know I shouldn’t be.
The only way their proof texting view works is within an institutional framework with a special building and sacred furniture. :o)
What if you are sitting in a circle in a meadow? (Wink)
Then we would have to find a clear prohibition from God -against women teaching or leading men in the OT.
Gram3 wrote:
Calvinism-saturated and Calvinism-centered, which is not the Gospel at all. When I listen to YRR sermons on podcast, I am always left with “What about Jesus?!”
Catherine wrote:
I’ve been there, a different cast but the same play.
@ ishy:
Oh
My
Goodness!
that is a terrifying comment to read …. it sounds almost like something I’m reading about now in Sweden and Norway, where refugees brought up in Islamic traditions concerning women, are stalking the native Norwegian and Swedish women, thinking that because the women are out in public without escort, they are ‘available’ to these men.
At some level, among a certain extreme fundamentalism in all cultures, women are being seriously, intentionally disregarded as human persons with an innate dignity that deserves respect.
Liberty University? Oh my goodness. I’m glad you survived, or at least I hope you did. I’m glad you can talk about it here.
BL wrote:
Self-ordained ‘officers’ in their own eyes, lol.
In other words, they have no answers and they deflect to their imagined male privilege.
Christiane wrote:
SBC’s New Calvinist leadership have a history of aligning themselves with questionable ministries to borrow ideas about church planting, church governance, and assorted gimmicks that have worked to grow churches (e.g., Acts29 and SGM). It’s no surprise that SEBTS would recruit Darville to pick his brain on how to reach young folks given his “12 years of campus ministry with a worldwide ministry.”
SBC messengers passed a resolution in 2013 at its annual meeting calling SBC leaders into account for partnering with “questionable” ministries and individuals. While the resolution pertained to sexual abuse of children, the language has other applications: “… we encourage all denominational leaders and employees of the Southern Baptist Convention to utilize the highest sense of discernment in affiliating with groups and or individuals that possess questionable policies and practices …” Maranatha certainly had some questionable practices as discussed in this post. Was Darville’s Maranatha background OK with SEBTS leadership? Was it OK with FBCRM?
I may have missed it, but is there a website where “Maranatha Survivors” have posted their experiences?
Out of what SEWER did the cult teaching crawl that programs any young man to insult the dignity of a woman who is a human person made in the image of God, and therefore deserving of all respect?????
biblical???? I’m sorry.
NO. It’s not ‘biblical’, and certainly not Christian.
This makes me sick to my stomach.
Christiane wrote:
I think I look like a mommy-type, and they think I’ll just go along. Trouble is, I’m a very tough cookie with a lot of theology education. I also come from a non-Christian family, so things like sexual harassment were not taboo subjects in my house. I also studied martial arts for several years.
I used to mess with some of them at LU, especially the pastoral majors. They thought planting a megachurch in affluent suburbs would impress me, so me the missions major would break out my church planting theology. A few literally ran away after that.
Gram3 wrote:
I agree.
The current networking & associations of leaders who go along to get along is incredible –
Oneness Pentecostals, Charismatics, Cessationists, Southern Baptists, Word Faith, Presbyterians, Federal Headists, Dominionists, Wagner’s Whacky Apostolic Reformation…
Once upon a time denominational distinctives would have meant that you would not find leaders from some of the different denoms sharing a conference stage or writing blurbs for each others books.
But now they share another goal, one through which they can unify.
ishy wrote:
Your good parents may not have been Christian, but it sounds like they raised you to have self-respect and a solid sense of self-confidence. Sometimes after reading about these cults, I suspect that the work ‘Christian’ is an abused label. I remember a movie about Corrie ten Boom called ‘The Hiding Place’ where the family’s minister did not want them to take in a Jewish baby for safe-keeping. After the minister left, Papa ten Boom shakes his head and says ‘just because a mouse in in the cookie jar, doesn’t make him a cookie’. Maybe your folks had more of essential Christian values than you realize. My best friend is orthodox Jewish, but she’s the best ‘Christian’ I know. Labels? I don’t trust them. 🙂
siteseer wrote:
Yep. Their logic?
Because women.
Christiane wrote:
They did. But sadly many other women at LU were not raised like that, and many thought that getting married was the only important thing in life. Even some of my good friends fell prey to that. All of my good friends from LU that got married while there or shortly afterward are divorced. A few are cases of abuse.
There was a girl I knew at SEBTS whose parents and grandparents told her that her only purpose in life was to produce grandchildren. She went to SEBTS to find a mate, and no other reason. And her family is quite well known, and her dad has spoken/written about how perfect his family is. She’s a mess, and he’s a liar.
ishy wrote:
You are welcome to stop by my site any time. It’s not super busy, but I always welcome comments. I also have a FB page if you are on FB. If you click on my name, it will take you to my website. 🙂
ishy wrote:
Eh, maybe not so much.
Deb wrote:
And I found TWW out of sheer frustration with people who did not care about Driscoll. Or maybe it was Mahaney. I lose track…It was a relief to learn that other people were frustrated as well with things which should not be happening in the church.
Max wrote:
If the search committee knew they kept it from us, and that would not surprise me in the least. He certainly never brought it up.
Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
The primary reason I have never been comfortable with the take or leave it style “witnessing” that was urged upon us since I can remember. I always thought believing was so much more weighty than a kind of “I won’t have those mangoes but I’ll take the bananas” decision.
Plus I never was comfortable presenting the faith to anyone in that manner.
I did some very basic searching on different Gospel(TM) sites to look for instances of certain words. Here’s what I found on The Gospel Coalition:
God – 29000
Jesus – 21400
Spirit – 9130
Gospel – 31400
Carson – 14800
Jared Wilson – 13300
Keller – 3220
Piper – 4210
Mahaney – 830
MacArthur – 920
Note how little “Spirit” is mentioned – less times that the leading authors.
Ron Oommen wrote:
I think about the Greek ‘martus’ which means ‘witness’ and it’s derivative word ‘martyr’ which many Christians are familiar with; and I do believe that the way people live (and die) unselfish lives of Christian witness impact greater than someone using only words …. look at the lives of people who left their comfort zones behind and went out into ‘the great empty’ bearing within them the light of Christ … people here might think about Lottie Moon and her love for her Chinese people, dying of starvation at 60 pounds because she had given her food away to them in famine. Now THAT’S a ‘witness’ that makes sense to me. Self-giving, to the point where one is living in imitation of Christ …. that honors the term ‘witness’, in the best sense of the word, yes.
dee wrote:
That is so sadly true in way too many cases. That alone would tell us there is something utterly rotten in the state of Denmark.
Ken F wrote:
Here’s what I found on 9Marks:
God – 2360
Jesus – 1440
Spirit – 1050
Gospel – 2550
Dever – 2260
Leeman – 2000
Piper – 764
Mahaney – 527
MacArthur – 523
Similar trend as TGC, except that Dever is mentioned more than both Jesus and Spirit. Gospel is mentioned more than any member of the Trinity. That’s the same as TGC, but I expected more hits on “Gospel” for TGC because of the ministry name.
Ken F wrote:
Here’s what I found on 9Marks:
God – 2360
Jesus – 1440
Spirit – 1050
Gospel – 2550
Dever – 2260
Leeman – 2000
Piper – 764
Mahaney – 527
MacArthur – 523
Similar trend as TGC, except that Dever is mentioned more than both Jesus and Spirit. Gospel is mentioned more than any member of the Trinity. That’s the same as TGC, but I expected more hits on “Gospel” for TGC because of the ministry name. Ken F wrote:
Here’s what I found for Grace to You:
God – 37900
Jesus – 35600
Spirit – 29900
Gospel – 28900
Piper – 1570
Mahaney – 89
MacArthur – 31800
Same trend, the ministry leader has more hits than Spirit, and the Spirit is least emphasized. But Gospel in this case “Gospel” does not beat any member or the Trinity.
Sorry for the repeat of 9Marks in my last comment. Here is what I found for The Gospel Project:
God – 68 pages
Jesus – 50 pages
Spirit – 23 pages
Gospel – 78 pages
Wax – 24 pages
Same trend.
Very interesting analysis
@ Ken F:
@ Ken F:
Wax, as in Trevin Wax??? 🙁
Why, he's half as popular as Jesus…
@ Ken F:
Great information for a blog post!
Ken F wrote:
Early in the New Calvinist movement, I would listen to sermon podcasts of SBC-YRR church planters in my area to see what made them tick. When I noticed that Jesus didn’t seem to get much air time, I sat down with pad and pencil, with 4 columns on a page: God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Icons. I made a check each time they were mentioned. I found that they used God’s name a lot, with occasional mention of Jesus, and hardly a note about the Holy Spirit. The young pastors were always talking about New Calvinist icons (Piper, Driscoll, etc.), often dropping their names more than Jesus! New Calvinists talk a lot about being Christ-centered, but they don’t talk a lot about Christ.
Thanks Ken F for your interesting tally – the numbers speak for themselves. I can’t believe SBC is turning these folks loose in its pulpits!
Ken F wrote:
I wonder what Dever thinks about that? Do you reckon God knows about this?
Deb wrote:
But more popular than the Holy Spirit!
Deb wrote:
Yes, I chose him because he is basically the leader.
BL wrote:
Yes, that’s it. Rachel Miller, Aimee Byrd, Wendy Alsup, and some other young women I cannot name publicly are questioning CBMW and even non-CBMW traditional complementarianism. At some point, I think there will be an exodus of some young, conservative men and women from the PCA to either ECO or EPC. Or perhaps there will be some other new split P. 🙂 For now, the “plain reading” interpretation seems to be carrying the day in the conservative Reformed church despite the inconsistencies which are really quite glaring once you examine them.
Gram3 wrote:
If they wait just a little while, another Calvinist organization – the SBC – will welcome them with open arms.
@ BL:
The Baylys are clowns. Doug Wilson is a living self-parody. Rachel Miller with careful research reduces all of them to sputtering blobs of irrational, indignant, blubbery goo. In other words, she gets to the facts and is not intimidated by their overwrought rhetoric and puffy self-importance.
@ Atticus Finch:
“Excellent manipulator evidenced by hiring staff and members children as interns.”
+++++++++++
in my brief stint in an Every Nation church (one of the groups Maranatha evolved into), the head pastor guy did the curious thing of hiring the sons of elders to be his associate pastors. he was very proud of it, indeed referring to the arrangement as ‘sons’ to whom he would pass the church down. i also heard him chastise a pastor from another church for not having sons to whom to bequeath the church later on. as if he had really missed the boat on that.
i thought it was unwise, dangerous. the church imploded or exploded with waves of exodi (?plural of exodus?), one elder’s family feeling that the other elder’s sons were being favored, and vice versa. all members either took sides or left. it was ugly.
i myself am enjoying my freedom, thank you very much.
siteseer wrote:
There used to be something called “the analogy of faith” or “the analogy of Scripture” which would show that, for example, Paul would not contradict himself. But I suppose the gender clobber verses are an exception to that rule of interpretation.
In 1979, Maranatha Ministries was headquartered in Gainesville, FL. This was also the home of the Crossroads Church of Christ, the church that birthed the ministry where I became a Christian. It’s not a coincidence that Crossroads, and the ministries that came from Crossroads (the Boston Movement and International Churches of Christ) adopted many of the same tactics that Maranatha Ministries did.
And what was ironic was that WE accused THEM of being a cult!
BL wrote:
Yep. My sister-in-law is still part of the ICOC, and she has said to me, “mistakes were made”. Sorry, that doesn’t hold water with me. I want to know specifically, what mistakes were made, and specifically, what are you going to do to not make those mistakes again?
Gram3 wrote:
I was looking for something earlier and I found somebody ‘explaining’ the women can’t teach stuff…they said ‘how many times does it have to be in the bible to be correct? Only once’. And bam. End of discussion. And when sites address the ‘are you sure that wasn’t just a particular woman and not all women (which honestly makes a lot of sense in context)’ they just say something like no, not supported. Which is pretty thin gruel.
Lydia wrote:
Speaking of SNL, how about the Baylys as Church Ladies tsk-tsking “could it be Satan?”
Christiane wrote:
Wellllll, that’s an age old question going back thousands and thousands of years.
@ Lydia:
The Baylys and Doug Wilson say what the others like Darville and the Usual Suspects really believe. In that respect they act as a pressure relief valve since the Usual Suspects can say that the Baylys and Wilson are extreme and do not accurately represent “Complementariansm.” Which of course is nonsense.
@ Max:
“New Calvinists talk a lot about being Christ-centered, but they don’t talk a lot about Christ.”
++++++++++
‘christ-centered’ — as meaningful as “Genuine!”, “All-Natural!”, and all the other power words on Effective Advertising Words list.
i bet when asked “what does that mean?”, followed up with “alright, well then what does that mean?”, the answers would be entertaining, but pathetic.
Gram3 wrote:
I think Wendy is much closer to being an egalitarian than she cares to admit.
Patriciamc wrote:
I think some of them are afraid if they say they are egal they will not longer be listened to. But they are already women, so they are already ignored. That seems to be bugging the heck out of Aimee!!!
Muff Potter wrote:
That’s supposed to be a Polish proverb. Wherever it came from, I use it now to remind myself that there are some things I’m not supposed to get involved in.
This article reminds me of my brief brush with Maranatha Campus Ministries in 1980. One thing you have to keep in mind is that I’m an Aspie and so “clueless” can be my middle name (but I’m better about it now). I am sure they were dropping tons of hints about what I should be doing, but I was socially clueless and those hints went zooming over my head.
I remember a few things about it: 1) I got a prophecy from their prophet Joe Smith who was supposed to be the bee’s knees. (I later found it ironic their prophet was named Joe Smith. HUG will appreciate this.) 2) The Maranathas lived together apartments several miles south of UT in the Riverside student area. They dropped hints I should move into one of their girls’ apartments. I didn’t want to live that far from campus. 3) I knew about the no-dating thing they had going on but didn’t think it affected *me*. 4)One of the women called me at home when I was away on Christmas break, which I thought was terribly strange and kind of invasive. After that, I made a point of evading the Maranathas after that.
Ann wrote:
Great point.
@ BL:
Bingo!
@ Catherine:
I am seeing a theme in this situation. People talked. That is crucial and healthy.
In most churches they won’t talk for fear of being considered a gossip, a liar or just a mean troublemaker. It has to be all positive about the new leadership.
@ Ken F:
Wow! Thanks so much for posting all that! It is unbelievable! Guru worship!
Lea wrote:
It is a pathetic interpretation. Let the women teach–period!!
@ Ken F:
I bet half the ‘spirit’ mentions are the Jezebel spirit 🙂
Lea wrote:
This reminds me of a discussion on women in the ministry I saw on reddit, where one of the participants was a new Calvinist. He insisted there was nowhere in the Bible that said men were supposed to submit to women in any way, and he cited Ephesians 5:22.
One person quoted Ephesians 5:21 “Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.”
He responded, “That verse is irrelevant.”
So one verse can confirm everything they say, but any verses that oppose what they say are just thrown out. How convenient!
Lea wrote:
I just read Aimee’s article, and it’s very good. Judging by most of the comments, it seems that cracks are appearing on the comp side.
Aimee said something that was interesting. She noted that she and others had read the books from the leading complementarians in order to know how to relate to the other gender in order to live biblically. To me, one gender following a set of rules when it comes to relating with the other gender is not living biblically. Following Christ’s commands is living biblically: loving God with all your heart and loving your neighbor as yourself and therefore doing unto others as you’d have them do unto you.
Max wrote:
“Spirit” in Hebrew is a feminine noun. It would make the pronoun “she.” Coincidence?
ishy wrote:
The way these men ignore that verse entirely while going bonkers on the one right after it is insane. Submit to husbands cannot mean mindless gracious winsome obedience without thought If we are supposed to submit to each other. It simply cannot.
Lea wrote:
It’s a no win. I know, I tried it all. One might even think that if they are a professional educated business woman with actual men reporting to them in their career AND describe herself as a comp they will be open to listening to a different way of interpreting The clobber verses. Nope.
And those were the soft comp Seeker Mega types.
This issue was sewed up and put to bed years ago– in their view. Being a self-described comp keep you in their Club. It really boils down to being accepted.
I highly recommend CBE to people who want to learn more about differing interpretations because it is not what they might think it is. I learned that lesson from the tniv propaganda.
Was Lottie Moon preaching, teaching and baptizing men?
Ann wrote:
Ah yes, “The Way” … I haven’t thought about them in years. We had friends who had family caught up in this cult – they were very concerned about their spiritual well-being. The “ministry” depended upon founder Victor Paul Wierwille’s interpretation of the Bible … much like the YRR depend on John Calvin’s teachings. As noted upstream, New Calvinists don’t talk much about the Holy Spirit, who Jesus said would lead believers unto Truth – they already have Calvin for that.
Ken F wrote:
If the Son is eternally subordinate to the Father, where does that leave the Spirit?
lol, these threads move so fast that I can’t keep up. But just wanted to respond to @Okrapod re nurses back in the day:
Oh my gosh! Does that ever bring back memories! When I was in college, I worked summers as a nurse’s aide. (I think they call them CNAs now.) First I worked at Tufts-New England Medical Center, then at Mass Eye and Ear, and finally at a chronic-care facility that accepted terminal patients from Saint Elzabeth’s, the model for St Elsewhere — and we had the 18-inch bed sores to prove it.
I was a liberal artsy type with zero medical training or acumen, but I gotta say — nobody was tougher or more efficient than nurses back then. You didn’t mess with nurses. And you *really* didn’t mess with head nurses. Just ask some of the gun-shy doctors, lol!!
Lydia wrote:
She absolutely was but the SBC boys refuse to believe this.
Max wrote:
Taking the last plane for the coast
The day the music died…
Patriciamc wrote:
I read it, too. Let’s pray that the scales are falling from their eyes.
I love my husband. I do things for him. I want him to be happy. But when I stand before the Bema Seat of Judgement, he is not the one who will judge me. Ultimately, I answer to God, not my husband.
@ Ann:
So grateful you saw the light… Thanks for your kind words.
@ ishy:
Lea wrote: “What kind of women’s issues do you want to talk about?”
ishy wrote: “Including subjects like this, but also living out faith, being a Christian woman, women in the Bible. Just more general.”
+++++++++++++++++
the way i see it, there’s not much in the bible that’s pink as opposed to blue. (well, i suppose we shouldn’t forget that very helpful “But women will be saved through childbearing–if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.”) 😐
my feeling is we can get lost in a world of weirdness by way of conjecture on what it means to be a christian woman. (i truly don’t try for alliteration — it just seems to happen sometimes!) but of course there’s a lot of money to be made in it!
i think it’s much more efficient to look at a human being in general.
i honestly don’t see how pursuing God and living for God is any different whether one is male or female.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
American Pie – what a great song! I know all the words. 🙂
Gram3 wrote:
To me, “plain reading” will always bring back memories of Hal Lindsay’s “plain reading” that the demon locust plague of Revelation “plainly meant” helicopter gunships armed with chemical weapons and flown by long-haired bearded hippies.
mot wrote:
But they won’t hesitate to beg for yearly donations to an offering named in her honor!!!
Max wrote:
Has anyone heard a YRR describe the Holy Spirit’s role in the crucifixion? Torn between two lovers?
elastigirl wrote:
And remember the Bible says women are to be silent. I once challenged this in a SBC Sunday School and was promptly told by the Sunday School teacher that I did not believe the Bible. What makes this confrontation even more amazing I was the pastor of the church at the time of “discussion.”
Max wrote:
“There is no Jesus, there is only CALVIN.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg7MAacSPNM
Ken F wrote:
Too good an intro to pass up…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OpnUQPeBmk
Max wrote:
Well, if the Spirit is noted with a feminine pronoun, then clearly her place is in the kitchen cooking cleaning for the other two. Some poor neo-cal soul would probably fall for this.
elastigirl wrote:
I don’t know of any discussion boards specifically for women, and I’d just imagine that they’d be complementarian, but Internet Monk and Sarah Bessey are two good sites discussing Christianity in general. Scot McKnight’s site Jesus Creed is good too, but a lot of theologians hang out there and their talk can get a bit lofty for little ole layperson me.
@ mot:
well, kudos to you for challenging nonsense.
ishy wrote:
I’ve always said that the comp side attracts some very strange, insecure men.
elastigirl wrote:
It ultimately cost me my job as pastor.
mot wrote:
I’m so sorry that happened. mot wrote:
mot wrote:
Mot, I’m so sorry that happened. I know that you know that one day you’ll be vindicated when you stand before God.
@ Ken F:
Max wrote: “and hardly a note about the Holy Spirit.”
Ken F wrote: ““Spirit” in Hebrew is a feminine noun. It would make the pronoun “she.” Coincidence?”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
one of my favorite motifs in the bible is ‘by the dunamis dynammite explosive power of the holy spirit’. i think new calvinist men are very insecure, and they are threatened by power in general when it is not theirs.
i think they are afraid of the holy spirit. i think they are afraid of women.
as dorky as this sounds, we enjoy watching Family Feud together as a family (teen agers, elementary age, and us adults). last night it was, “We surveyed 100 people, top 7 answers are on the board. Try to find the most popular answer. Here’s the question: Name something that even very strong, macho men are afraid of”.
# 1 answer: women
@ mot:
i admire your integrity. and fair-mindedness.
what silly people they were.
@ Patriciamc:
I thought you all needed to read that twice. ; )
elastigirl wrote:
It doesn’t really, but being a middle-aged single, I’m barred from a lot of the normal venues, and a lot of other people are just afraid to really challenge their faith.
One of the reasons I left the last church I was at was because they eliminated singles from every class and study group they had except for one group that was two hours from me. I had a long talk with the discipleship pastor (who was a woman), and I could tell nothing would change. I visited churches (in a busy Bible belt city) for almost two years and finally found a tiny one that treats me like a contributing adult. The way churches treat singles is pretty awful.
Patriciamc wrote:
Thanks for the references! I’ve read a couple of Sarah Bessey’s books and follow her blog, but should go on there to comment more. I had seen a reference to Internet Monk here yesterday, but didn’t know who/what it was. And I’ve read a few articles by Scot McKnight on big sources like patheos, but didn’t know him that well.
When I read the write-ups above on Maranatha, this sentence stood out:
“Maranatha’s members were told to work hard, get the best grades, and look as good as possible in order to rise in the economic and political ladders of success to be next to influential decision-makers.”
I missed the part in the gospels where Jesus tells his followers to be the best fishermen on the Sea, to look good (John the Baptist clearly failed at that), and to cozy up to the influential decision-makers like the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and the Romans.
@ elastigirl:
“i think new calvinist men are very insecure, and they are threatened by power in general when it is not theirs.”
++++++++++++
a footnote: i think the new calvinist religion plays on this insecurity, pumping the men up with visions of grandeur of their own pre-eminence. this has the unintended effect of making them all the more vulnerable when they come up against anything or anyone with confidence, assertiveness, and power.
new calvinism, and any other patriarchally-minded group, does their men a big disservice. they force their men to don a thin-skinned suit with a big vulnerability target on their backs and fronts.
ishy wrote:
I hear you! I left a large Methodist church because the singles were isolated in the singles class and were excluded from all other classes and activities. There simply was no place for singles or really, for anyone who didn’t have children. In my current church, only the children and youth are pulled aside for their own activities. The rest of us are all together, and singles don’t stick out like a sore thumb.
elastigirl wrote:
I totally agree. Secure people can listen to other viewpoints, evaluate them honestly, and can discuss them without losing who they are.
I have a lot of respect for people that say, “I studied it and I still don’t know.” That’s much braver than always insisting you are right.
Bill M wrote:
Me, too. Complete with the one baptism per year and no altar calls because of the danger of a false conversion. 9Marks recommends delayed baptism. How does that square with Baptist thought? It is more akin to confirmation except confirmation is delayed until age 18, and I do not know of any denomination that does that. But the 9Marks way of doing church is the only way to do church, it seems.
@ Patriciamc:
Hebrew has no neuter prnouns. This means that we are dealing with language, not theology, in this case.
Ken F wrote:
Now there is one they will argue you into the ground with. Many insist the HS is an “IT”.
@ Christiane:
The no dating thing was par for the course in many groups back in the 70s and 80s. In one place where i spent time, there was a creepy focus on ehst they called “being led together.” 🙁
Lea wrote:
Another factor is how long the husbands of these women will put up with their wives being dismissed. Surely some of these men are justifiably proud of their wives and will, at some point, get tired of this nonsense. A really strong man does not need to be told constantly that He Is The Boss. And a strong man knows that only weak men need to hold that over a woman.
@ Lydia:
Lydia wrote:
Lydia wrote:
ishy wrote:
People that are comfortably in the know-it-all category and proud of it have a lot of trouble interacting with people who accept ‘mystery’ in theology. Theologians who are quoted by cult followers are often in the first category; and theologians who accept ‘mystery’ are often much more comfortable dialoguing with one another and examining different points of view as to what are the important differences and what is shared between them.
Essentially, in religion, some folks set out into the deeper waters explored through the process of dialoguing because they ARE more secure in ‘who they are’ and ‘what they believe’, but they also want to learn from the experiences of others, and explore how others relate to God in their own words. For Christian people who are open to dialogue, there is a respect for ‘not knowing’ all the answers. These theologians are able to all humbly accept “Si comprehendis, non est Deus”
Gram3 wrote:
That’s right! A good, strong man wants his wife to be a partner, not a subordinate. Thankfully, I know some good strong men. Now if I can just find one who’s single and in my age range.
Gram3 wrote:
These are wisest words I’ve read all day. Wow.
These strong men share the attitude of Christ “The Attitude of Christ
…6 Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to cling to, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself”
(St. Paul to the Philippians, chapter 2)
Gram3 wrote:
Interesting point! You know the manly protective men that they supposedly all think they are tend to actually get mad if people treat their wives poorly. (Or women in general for that matter – if these were actually decent men they would car about their sisters in Christ more than their own power but I know I’m preaching to the choir)
mot wrote:
So very sorry but not at all surprised. I think that things are changing, judging by how much Owen BHLH crows that Female Subordinationism is surging. I think he is delusional.
Gram3 wrote:
I have two daughters and if one or both of them tell me God is calling them to preach the Gospel they will have my support and they both know I mean it. The SBC or no other religious group owns me.
Max wrote:
Just a thought: the neo-Cals who are acknowledged self-important gas-bags can’t afford to call down the fire of the Holy Spirit to be enkindled in their hearts.
They’d blow themselves to Kingdom Come!
okrapod wrote:
This is actually a reality. I’d say about 99% of men I’ve talked to – platonic chit chat just to pass the time with or be polite – more often than not mistake my polite banter with flirting. It’s not flirting.
Daisy wrote:
ishy wrote:
Sounds like my ex fiance’ – but that man sure loved to talk and expected me to listen to him.
About all these weirdos and stalkers being Christian, as you were saying: I really do scratch my head in wonder that Christians insist that Christians only date or marry other Christians (equally yoked), when there are no doubt better quality, less weird and abusive, Non-Christian men out there to date or marry.
Daisy wrote:
That reminds me of the Ellen Degeneres episode several years ago where she smiled politely at a guy waiting for the elevator, then proceeded to think about how slowly the elevator was in coming. She was really aggravated about the elevator while he thought she was into him!
By the way, sorry for the crazy post a moment ago (if it appears). My laptop is acting up. I think a Calvinistic germ is gumming up its brains!
Daisy wrote:
That’s the problem!
Off-topic alert: it’s 10:16 pm Central time, and the HVAC man just left! I have cool air again! Hallelujah!
ishy wrote:
There is a complementarian guy on this blog who insists that verse does not refer to husbands. I don’t see anything supporting his understanding… sure looks like it refers to ALL Christians to me.
@ Lea:
Husbands, the Last Word, Love, and Honor
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2016/06/23/husbands-the-last-word-love-and-honor/
mot wrote:
Are You Funding Terrorism? The Lottie Moon Christmas Offering
https://tictocministries.wordpress.com/2015/11/28/are-you-funding-terrorism-the-lottie-moon-christmas-offering/
ishy wrote:
Book: “Quitting Church” by Julia Duin.
Especially see the chapters on singles and on women.
@ Daisy:
Can’t see HER quitting anything. But, with her spirit, I can envision Ishy working to make things better for others in the Church, yes. And succeeding.
Daisy wrote:
Good article!
Daisy wrote:
Beautiful! It all comes back to love.
Patriciamc wrote:
strange, insecure and *dishonest men.
mot wrote:
I’m so sorry. How disheartening.
@ Christiane:
What year was that?
@ nathan priddis:
Hi NATHAN,
I found this: “The Navigators organization was cited in a lawsuit[7] against the United States Air Force Academy by Michael Weinstein in 2005. The lawsuit alleged that Darren and Gina Lindblom, assigned to the Academy through The Navigators, were favored by the Air Force to the exclusion of other religious groups in violation of the Establishment Clause of the United States Constitution. This lawsuit was dismissed.”
It’s from the Wiki site article on the Navigators. I had heard about the case some years ago because I had Jewish friends who mentioned it in conversation, with some concern. I don’t know if the situation began earlier than the year 2005. I would think if there was anything to those serious charges of abusive proselytizing, that the AF would have investigated and ended the harassment quickly. We currently have Coast Guard and U.S.Navy members in my family and I haven’t heard about any proselytizing in those services. Hope this helps.
@ Max:
There was much more to The Way than Wierville’s odd views. They set up in the UK, buying large country houses and estates close to US air and naval bases and directed a lot of their activities towards them. They attracted mainly European young adults, alienated the local population and guarded their properties zealously. I found their adherents almostt zombie-like in their interactions and they were designated a cult. They eventually moved out and sold the houses to another organisation called “Harbour Lights”.
Christiane wrote:
No, I was not encouraging her to quit church.
I gave her the book title because it contains a chapter about how horribly churches treat singles past the age of 25.
Daisy wrote:
I’ve actually had that book on my reading list for awhile now. The reason I haven’t read it yet is that reviews indicate it doesn’t really present solutions. I have solutions, but churches usually don’t want to listen.
One simple thing churches could do is assign a pastor over them that regularly talks to singles about what they want. Many assign a pastor who never once tries to actually talk to singles, or they only talk to one single who’s related to them. Churches study the needs of married couples, but never once bother to actually ask singles what they need.
Another thing they can do is get leaders who care about singles. My last church threw temporary leader after temporary leader at us, and then insisted that it was the singles fault that they left the church. Or they got singles who were not fit at all to lead. One of those stalker guys I mentioned? Yeah, singles leader. He stalked every female that came to the class. I talked to leadership, nothing changed.
I made a blog last night. I’d been mulling it for a long time. Nothing on it yet, but I plan to converse on some of these issues.
Daisy wrote:
My Bible’s always getting in the way of my presuppositional framework!
Daisy wrote:
Bingo! Husbands are to love their wives and love is not self seeking. This do what I want cause I want it thing is the opposite of that.
Lea wrote:
But they don’t see it as that.
Because the husband is to love his wife and is called to lead therefore he is given an anointing to do so. He is uniquely qualified for this job. Therefore he is able to have the last say for the benefit of his wife and family. It’s that complimentarian pixie dust sprinkled on relationships that makes it all work out.
If the husband is loving his wife, he won’t be self-serving.
However, there are no checks and balances for when the husband is not functioning in his role properly. The wife is to submit no matter what. And when things spiral out of control, the wife is blamed for it. She has no authority but is still somehow held responsible.
http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2013/07/resolution-writing-persuasive-but-wrong_17.html
Mara wrote:
Sometimes I think many of these Comp. guys love their wives and children like a master loves his dog and her puppies!
Lowlandseer wrote:
Hmmm … sounds familiar to SBC’s New Calvinist movement. They attract mainly young adults, alienate traditional (non-Calvinist) Southern Baptists, and guard the stuff they have taken over (seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house).
Mara wrote:
They also don’t see the verse right before where believers submit to each other, so…
siteseer wrote:
It will soon be four years since I resigned from this church and the pain is still very real. I had known all my life that when you stand up for the right thing it will cost you and this is definitely true. I have piece of mind that I made the right choice. You can do just anything as a SBC pastor and not get called in on the carpet by the deacons, but you just can not support women in ministry–that is the unpardonable sin.
mot wrote:
The SBC church we are currently in is more strict on women than any church to which I've "belonged". I am teetering on the conclusion that church is for men and women are just dressing on the side. I haven't been to church since the first week of March.
mot wrote:
I really am not a fan of divisions, but I wish there was a Baptist denomination that had a better regard for missions, women, and church history. I go to a Lutheran church now, and there’s more of a theological fullness than I ever encountered in Baptist churches, but I don’t entirely agree with child baptism or sacraments in general. I have a Lutheran spirit and a Baptist theology, and they cause me some internal conflict.
mot wrote:
By the deacons, you say. I have the impression that some people are operating under the belief that it is the neo-cal pastors who oppose women in ministry but that the laity would gladly accept women in ministry if it were not for the pastors.
You seem to be saying that this is not necessarily the case, in that you have talked about ‘the deacons’ being opposed to women in mininstry.
I mention this because it has not been my observation that congregations are not all that much of one mind, and it has been my observation that just a lot of the laity are opposed to women in ministry. Do you have some thoughts on this issue?
mot wrote:
What an incredibly sad thought.
Nancy2 wrote:
It is pure insanity. The 2000 BF&M is being used to bully many SBC churches in my opinion because it can be used to Disfellowship–(what an awful word) by local associations if women are ordained or if a church calls a woman pastor.
ishy wrote:
Same (not Lutheran though). I had to switch denoms but I really am Baptist at heart on the essentials, at least old school Baptist. But my current church has women at all levels and I feel confident they would not be telling women to go back to abusive husbands and just submit harder and that is important to me right now. Until this craziness passes I cannot support a Baptist church.
Nancy2 wrote:
I just heard Anne Graham Lotz speak (Billy Graham’s daughter). Some of these oppressive churchmen need to hear what she has to say – she is attempting to call the church back to God (yes, the church!), while they are playing games with it. She was disgraced a few years ago at a pastors conference when several hundred men turned their chairs around as she came to the platform to speak. She gets it – they don’t.
Lea wrote:
I am about to move, and I’m going to try a number of different denominations. What I’ll be looking for most is a church that has a heart for the world and treats me like an adult and part of the community. I doubt I will go to a SBC church, though.
Mara wrote:
Yes.
This is just the sort of thing that submission to the establishment of their hierarchy is supposed to prevent.
Proper submission to the hierarchy (husband & church) supposedly provides protection.
However, as we have seen time after time – the most vulnerable, the lowest members of the hierarchy, women and children, ARE NOT PROTECTED, in their systems.
Those preaching this hierarchical protection for women and children that can only be found in their hierarchy, are the very same ones that PROTECT THE ABUSERS.
Fail.
BL wrote:
Which is utterly stupid, if you understand 1. history and 2. people. Show me a society that was hierarchical with women at the bottom that did not result in abuse? Show me a group given absolute power over others that didn’t abuse it? They don’t exist.
@ Max:
Did you hear her in person on on the Internet? A few weeks ago she spoke in Raleigh, and I was able to go hear her. Anne is such an inspiration!
As an aside, Anne's son-in-law was my older daughter's Bible teacher when she was in 12th grade at North Raleigh Christian Academy. She was also negatively affected by the church conflict of we experienced (while she was in high school), and he had a big impact on her Christian walk. Incidentally, Anne and her husband were members of that same church, so her SIL knew all about it. Life goes on…
mot wrote:
Amen Mot!! We need God’s children – male & female – preaching THE Gospel. There are so many flavors of gospel which are not ‘the’ Gospel. Jesus in Matthew 24 says “THIS Gospel shall be preached” … the church is struggling these days to define “gospel”, when it’s really pretty simple. The problem I have with those who preach predestination (some saved, others damned before they are ever born) is that they don’t look with love as they ought on EVERY man. ALL people on planet earth need to hear the Truth that “God loves YOU; Jesus died for YOU.” Each person can then exercise their free will to make a choice to receive or reject Jesus. I believe everybody should make an informed decision before they choose Hell. They should hear Gospel Truth about salvation and life in Christ; that is the Great Commission. All people need to be informed with THIS Gospel; Calvinism doesn’t preach that.
@ Deb:
Anne was on a Christian television program. A powerful and anointed preacher, a faithful servant of God. Great that you were able to hear her in person! Wonderful to know that her son-in-law impacted your daughter to keep the faith in the midst of the chaos in your church experience. (I guess you know that Anne’s husband, Daniel, died last year).
Max wrote:
The key word is ALL! How particularly SBC leaders miss this in their reading of the Bible is beyond me. They would rather a man go to HELL than hear the Gospel from a Woman. The ‘moderates” were accused of not believing the Bible IMO it is actually the FUNDAMENTALISTS that do not believe the Bible and have written their own.
Max wrote:
I used to be a secondary education math teacher, but health problems prevent me from being able to teach full-time, now. I can teach precal to 17 and 18 year old males, I can tutor college students through their college math classes (one of the college students I tutored was a decon at our church!) ……. but I can’t teach salvation, the life of Jesus, or the history of the nation of Israel to 14 and 15 year old males!
I have busted my chops in teaching VBS, SS, and Wed. Night classes to kids (I put the same prep work and dedication in those classes that I did for Alg. II and precal!) ….. serving as team leader on the kitchen committe – hitting the road at 5:39 on Sunday mornings to drive 30 miles to pick up special order BBQ or turkey and dressing for 150 people ….. Staying late to clean up ….. even when I was so sick I could barely function.
But when deacons poke fun at “women drivers” ……….. when a deacon SS teacher goes on a “women submit/Jezebel rant” in class. ……. when women have to go to our segregated classes if we wish to participate in a discussion …… when women are not allowed to speak at business meeting, but we are expected to tithe, and their is a pre-business meeting men’s meeting to determine what will be brought up at the business meeting. . ……. when the pastor stands behind the pulpit, thanks the congregation for all the work everyone did and some man pipes in with, “Let’s not forget to thank the women, too!” ……. Etc.
No! No! No! Those men can kiss my Southern Baptist grits, even if my husband is a preacher!
@ Nancy2:
Eeeeessshhh. Lot’s of typos in that rant ….. Please excuse?
Nancy2 wrote:
Rants should have typos! It shows you care.
mot wrote:
And a woman/girl cannot accept Jesus Christ as her Lord and Savior without help and guidance from a man?
Nancy2 wrote:
And the TWW faithful shout AMEN!
mot wrote:
A sad commentary on the State of the Disunion.
The derailing and rabbit chasing of all these threads is super annoying to those who want to see the comments about the actual post. —said in love
ishy wrote:
I’m okay with reading stuff that doesn’t present solutions depending on what the topic is.
I find just reading a post or book that acknowledges what I’m going through is extremely validating.
Someone on this blog, several months ago, told me I should read a copy of “Trying to Measure Up.” So I got a copy and read it.
The author spends the first 3/4 of the book describing a problem and the last 1/4 outlining possible solutions. The solutions were okay, but what I found so helpful was just seeing my situation described in the first 3/4. It felt good to see that I’m not alone and that others have gone through what I did.
By the same token, I found myself shaking my head in agreement on almost every page of the “Quitting Church” book.
A lot of churches and church people are not even convinced there are legit reasons why people are quitting. A lot of married Christians are in severe denial of how much adult singles are marginalized – so a book or article that points out to them that the problem even exists at all is a step in the right direction IMO.
Also – I’ve seen Christians online admit that they did not realize how awful churches treat singles until they found themselves single later in life due to divorce or their spouse dying.
When they went back to church, single again, at age 35 or older, they said it was truly an eye opening experience at how much differently singles are treated vs. married couples.
A lot of Christians don’t even realize these problems exist and some have to be convinced that these problems are real.
Dominionism association:
Ran across info on the following book entitled “Every Square Inch: An Introduction to Cultural Engagement for Christians” by Bruce Riley Ashford.
In with he writes the following Acknowledgements:
And the description tells us:
Really? I thought God explained the command to till the soil:
“through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food
Anything there about “take My good creation and change it”? Or “take My good creation and make something out of it”? “Bring out its hidden potentials”?
All that from – no more free food, you will have to work in order to eat?
Ashford’s description goes on to say:
I can’t seem to locate just where Jesus told us that we were Vice-Regents of the earth, and that our purpose was to build societies and produce cultures.
So, I’m thinking that whole thing about viewing ourselves (as believers) as foreigners and pilgrims in this world, who were by faith, looking for that city whose builder and maker is God must have been a mistake.
And when God said:
“Instead, they were longing for a better country–a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
I guess “heavenly” really meant right here on earth!
And when He said “for HE has prepared a city for them” He actually means that WE are to prepare a city for Him!
Attempting to gospel up their desire to be in control, establish and exercise their authority over others and the cultures around the world – I can only assume that the sanctified testosterone is causing selective blindness to how Christians and Christianity are actually illustrated for us in the New Testament.
Daisy wrote:
I read stuff that doesn’t present solutions, too, but there’s just other things I want to read first. I’ve probably encountered everything in that book in churches. I’m probably not the target group for that book, because I live it every day.
@ mot:
“It is pure insanity. The 2000 BF&M is being used to bully many SBC churches in my opinion because it can be used to Disfellowship–(what an awful word) by local associations if women are ordained or if a church calls a woman pastor.”
+++++++++++++++++++
do you mean churches in a given area (a town, a valley, an area) will gang up on another church if they promote women in ministry/leadership? what will they do? what does disfellowship look like?
Nancy2 wrote:
I wonder how many of their moms led them to Christ….
HickoryNut wrote:
I hope this doesn’t mean you didn’t appreciate my link on the last thread to the Gap Band’s “I dropped a bomb on you” video? That song is totally catchy and you have to appreciate the early 80s aesthetics!
From the original post about this cult’s views on dating:
Bah ha ha. I grew up in a standard Baptist family, but I was stressed this sort of thinking never the less.
No, the parents and Baptist churches we went to did not forbid dating, but there was most definitely this notion that you should rely on God to send you a spouse, and just “wait on the Lord’s timing” and so on.
I was fully expecting to marry by my late 20s and early 30s – I was engaged for a while, but I broke things off with that guy, I’m in my 40s now and have never married.
So much for the cultic or Baptist view that having faith in God will get you a spouse. I tried that approach, and it did not work.
It looks to me as though if you want to marry, you do have to put yourself out there, have friends set you up on dates, and etc.
Gone to OD page.
@ BL:
Paul actually said remaining single, which suggests being childless (because Christians are supposed to be celibate unless married), is preferable to marrying, so that right there disputes that book you were quoting from.
Another thing Paul’s writings would dispute about that book you quoted from: dealing with culture. Paul was living in and among some very depraved cultures/ cities in his day.
All Paul did was instruct the Christians living in those cities to live godly lives, to mind their own business, police their own, and let God judge and handle those outside the church.
Paul at no time told the Christians to march around in city squares with posters protesting abortion or homosexual marriage(*) or whatever, or become obsessed with cleaning the smutty culture up via politics, etc.
———
(*) I have traditional values myself, but the older I become, I’m not seeing much point in constantly engaging in culture wars – maybe unless the other side is trampling too much on my side’s rights or liberties or whatever, then I suppose that is debatable.
@ Max:
Yes, it was covered extensively by the local news when it happened, and she did talk about it a few weeks ago. Heartbreaking… Danny was a fine Christian man. There aren't nearly enough like him.
elastigirl wrote:
Chickens pecking a “defective” to death in the barnyard.
And “Disfellowship” is usually Christianese for Purge and Shunning.
Or if you speak Scientology, “Disconnect for Entheta”.
mot wrote:
Or to be Wrong in any other way.
Doesn’t Screwtape speak as a good thing about how Our Father Below withdrew himself from the Enemy rather than be wrong?
BL wrote:
And who preaches this?
The Highborn with the Whip at the top of the heirarchy, of course.
@ BL:
And I’m sure you know Bruce Ashford is the 2nd-biggest cheese over at SEBTS. Anything published by the big shots is meant to be taken as canon.
Nancy2 wrote:
Dressing on the side good for one thing and one thing only.
“PENETRATE! COLONIZE! CONQUER! PLANT!”
(Doesn’t that sound like gelded losers going “ME MAN! ME MAN! ME MAN! REALLY! ME MAN!”?)
Lea wrote:
Not to their Personal Advantage.
@ Christiane:
I wonder if that’s one of the reasons why “Colo Spgs” has become the Christianese Culture War Redoubt. Proximity to the AF Academy and the possibility of influence/control.
I remember Christianese AM radio in the Eighties crowing over and over about how the Military was now X percent Born-Again Christian(TM), as opposed to the Vietnam era. And during that big Congressional gridlock/shutdown a couple years ago, just who was calling the loudest for a Military Coup? (Hint: it was from pulpits.)
Daisy wrote:
Not at all. It provided a brief moment of levity.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Gospel Evangelism: Are you Elect?
Gospel Discipleship: Occupy your designated spot in the Hierarchy, under the AICRA (see below), under the “approved” pastor, under the man-head-of-household.
Gospel Fellowship: Circle the wagons in your local church setting, endorsed by the Elite and Approved Industrial Complex Religious Authority. Leave your brains, heart and BS-o-meter (critical thinking or rather any thinking at all) at the curb as you enter in.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Those idiots had no qualms whatsoever about repeating the horrors of Cromwell’s England. With the exception of the Southerners who survived the swath Sherman burnt and pillaged through Georgia in 1864, Americans have never known total war.
The founder of Maranatha Campus Ministries was Bob Weiner. Weiner became an ‘Apostle’ in Peter Wagner’s Whackadoodle International Coalition of Apostles.
Darville was a pastor in and teacher for Maranatha. And Maranatha’s beliefs and teachings are what he would have been planting and emphasizing the TWELVE years he lead there.
One of Maranatha’s foundational beliefs:
From: The Changing Church: How God Is Leading His Church into the Future
By C. Peter Wagner
Sounds so very similar to Karen Hinkley’s experience. (elder) Steve Hardin: “Have we tried to push her under our care ?”
So, Darville spent at least 12 years believing and teaching that the goal was to bring the nations “under” what he interpreted as being God’s influence based upon their atrocious misinterpretations of Scripture which they title ‘Biblical principles.’
@ mot:
“I have two daughters and if one or both of them tell me God is calling them to preach the Gospel they will have my support and they both know I mean it. The SBC or no other religious group owns me.”.
+++++++++++++++
mot for President!!
BL wrote:
Same-old, same-old games. Shepherding, authoritarianism, new generation Xtreme ElderRule — all seem bent on empire rather than empowerment, coercion rather than equipping, striving for the appearance of perfection rather than the achievement of righteousness.
Seems that a partial pattern that happens is that, 20 or 30 years after the inauguration of Shepherding or neo-Shepherding schemes, that some (usually not all) of the founders repent and are sorry to some degree about the damage their power-ponzi iron fist approach has done. How much longer will we have to wait for the current wave of overlordship to come to that conclusion? How many more will end up with their Christian faith crushed?
HickoryNut wrote:
There is that, sometimes they stay on subject but get so into detail it sounds like “Inside Baseball” if you don’t have the history with SBC as I don’t.
With this story I am truly mystified by the people following Darville. When I left a church that had become authoritarian most people I knew stayed, more than a handful left, but most stayed. It would have felt vindicating if most had walked and the place shut down but that didn’t happen. It was only till reading the stories here of much greater abuse that I found people submitting to such garbage is the rule, leaving is the exception, and openly protesting “pastors” is nearly unheard of.
In this case Darville has taken it a step further. He has called people to make a decision. Instead of just staying and accepting his abusive leadership, because of inertia or not wanting to break relationships, people have had to make a decision to leave where they have been attending and change to the new church led by this questionable “pastor”.
I have lots of questions. Are they blind to the allegations against Darville? Do they operate under some type of legalism that demands adherence to the pastor, any pastor, as supremely appointed by God? Ignorance here is no excuse, and in this case it is a choice. Their church is dividing why do they not feel obligated to get all the facts they can? This is one of those cases where I wish I could interview the people who followed Darville out the door and determine what they know and why they chose their path.
BL wrote:
This is what I witnessed, too. i started connecting dots that what they declared in their teaching about protection and what they actually did, were two different things. Words and actions did not match. But folks have to pay attention and others willing to talk.
It se
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Seems like something out of a cheesy 50’s horror movie.
HickoryNut wrote:
The way the comments are not displayed in threads can make it awfully difficult to follow the discussion at times, I will give you that.
@ HickoryNut:
“The derailing and rabbit chasing of all these threads is super annoying to those who want to see the comments about the actual post. —said in love”
+++++++++++++++++
hi, HickoryNut.
i understand. as i see it, there are a few dynamics happening–
-the is genuine camaraderie here
-there are genuine friendships here
both of which foster banter
-there are at least a few greater conversations always happening
-most blog post topics touch on all these conversations
so what seems like “all these threads” and derailing is pulling in conversations that have been going on for a long time (months, years)
i see TWW as a big group of friends, and each blog post is us gathering around a big table with candles and beverages of choice (maybe a cigar or two?) sometimes we’re all talking together, sometimes we’re talking in groups of one or two, sometimes there are multiple conversations criss-crossing the table…
More on Maranatha Campus Minstries, where Darville spent 12 years as a leader.
Is Latin America Turning Protestant?: The Politics of Evangelical Growth
By David Stoll
And it looks like Dennis Darville took that same authoritarianism right on into FBCRM.
BL wrote:
Absolutely.
It is house of cards built on falsehood and deceit.
http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2015/09/the-patriarchs-second-lie-to-women.html
ishy wrote:
The person who had the greatest influence on my becoming a Christian was a Woman and she is in heaven as I type this. She used very few words to influence me. It was her unconditional love of a long-haired boy that no one else had showed me.
BL wrote:
Us and Them mentality as a Big Red Flag?
On the other hand, from Luke 9:“Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in Your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not accompany us.” “Do not stop him, Jesus replied, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”… BSB
So, Darville had to split the church into Us and Them? They could not work together? And he was the new kid on the block? They all got along before Darville came along?
elastigirl wrote:
Usually a church or church in an Association will find out about what women are doing at a local SBC church and make an issue of it. The church will be given the choice of conforming to the 2000 BF&M or being put out of the Association.
Getting put out of a SBC association will usually only occur if it involves a woman pastor or heaven forbid a church be what is called “welcoming and affirming’ of homosexuals.
mot wrote:
Same here ~~~~ my maternal grandpa’s baby sister who was only a few years older than my mom. No children of her own, but she loved children. —– the good, the bad and the ugly. I accepted Jesus as my savior at a General Baptist church, but I became the assistant and substitute SS teacher with and for this g-aunt at a Missionary Baptist church when I was 14. My g-aunt was an easy-going, shy, laid-back woman, born in Eastern KY, but she was a powerful influence on me, and many more.
BL wrote:
BL, this is the stuff our pastor tried to push our church into. It’s a huge mess. But I also think the basic idea has taken root in Christianity to a great extent, it’s just not verbalized as directly as these kooks put it. It’s usually worded that we need to “impact our culture” or some such thing.
I was just reading about all the “church” leaders who met with Trump (Yahoo has a transcript of the meeting). Amazing how these guys twisted scripture and denied facts in order to pander to Trump- all in the pursuit of power and position. -Not to get into politics- it doesn’t matter who they are meeting with or endorsing- these leaders are all about pursuit of POWER, worldly position and control.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
For the many younger people who have not known another kind of Christianity, this may be ultimately faith-destroying. The older ones who remember a time when authoritarianism (and even in some respects totalitarianism) was not the rule in conservative churches will probably just keep their heads down, huddle together supporting one another inside the churches, or become Dones. We have walked too long with Jesus to be thrown off the trail by these un-Christlike behaviors and doctrines. I wonder if the children being raised in this as natives will throw it off when they become adults.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Take heart Brad. I choose to believe that the efforts of folks like yourself and our blog queens in getting the info out there, will make a difference and help to minimize the swath of spiritual destruction.
JYJames wrote:
Hebrews tells us to destroy the root of bitterness, not plant one. However, the Calvinistas and other authoritarians specialize in planting and nurturing roots of bitterness until they destroy the love people have for one another. Love is not the greatest virtue, but rather power is the greatest “good.” They are strangler figs consuming the life of Christ’s church. And naming the strangler fig church “Christ Covenant Church” does not change that. It has nothing to do with Christ, nothing to do with the New Covenant in his blood, and nothing to do with the true Church, his bride.
mot wrote:
For that reason, the SBC churches are no longer autonomous (despite the assertions Anonymous makes) and the SBC churches are de facto creedal, though the creed is not one of the time-tested creeds of history.
In short, Gospel Glitterati Global has made SBC churches non-Baptist. Good job, guys.
Max wrote:
Hi MAX,
I read that Billy Graham considered his daughter Anne to be the best preacher in the family. I wonder … have the people who turned their back to Anne Graham Lotz also slammed Billy Graham?
I’m very disappointed in Jack Graham. He is not a man like his father, no.
Among the children of Billy and Ruth Graham, I suspect the Holy Spirit has touched a daughter of the house with special gifts maybe as a lesson to those men who turned their backs on her. But they would not/could not understand, which is sad.
Gram3 wrote:
Good points, Gram3. And this particular one I quoted makes me think our communities really need to be gathering together what information-research-blog posts we can about SGAs — Second Generation Adults — those reared in an authoritarian cult or movement, how it distinctively tends to affect them, and what similar and different issues they face compared with those who join authoritarian organizations as adults.
@ mot:
“Usually a church or church in an Association will find out about what women are doing at a local SBC church and make an issue of it. The church will be given the choice of conforming to the 2000 BF&M or being put out of the Association.
Getting put out of a SBC association will usually only occur if it involves a woman pastor or heaven forbid a church be what is called “welcoming and affirming’ of homosexuals.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
A few blog posts ago, Anonymous made the following statements:
“It’s not that the SBC is or is not a denomination. It’s the issue of “autonomy” or the fact that each church is completely self-governing and is not controlled from groups or people outside of the congregation.”
“I am not aware that the SBC has ever disfellowshipped a church because it had woman pastor. That could have happened, but I don’t think so.”
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/06/15/steve-gaines-declared-sbc-president-after-j-d-greear-withdraws-from-race/comment-page-1/#comments
the idea of autonomy of an SBC church and not being controlled by groups or people outside the congregation seems pretty meaningless. any additional thoughts to round this out? (the only exposure i have to SBC is what i read here)
Muff Potter wrote:
True, it does seem that a series of significant tipping points have been reached over the past 5 to 7 years, each unlocking a new section for moving forward … kind of like how the locks in a canal system work to raise the water level that keeps the boat afloat and its transition moving forward.
What makes things perhaps even more hopeful is that abuse survivor movements in Christianity seem to be paralleling those in the general culture. So, I believe those misusing religious non-profit status will increasingly find themselves in trouble legally. Perhaps that will help force some changes in practice that could spark some reflections about the damage being done by authoritarian doctrines.
But, patterns are only partial pictures, and trends are tricky things. So we keep working and wait upon the Lord … and that is no cliche.
elastigirl wrote:
IMO a SBC church can scream they are autonomous and get away with it unless they call a woman pastor or are welcoming and affirming to homosexuals.
As far as churches being kicked out two quickly come to mind–First Baptist Church of Decatur, Ga and Flat Rock Baptist Church in North Carolina.
Bill M wrote:
I’m not sure how big the church was to start off with, but as I understand it the entire staff left. So that is 5-10 (or more?) people plus their families so lets say x4, plus probably their close friends and family, plus anybody who had been specially worked on by the pastor/groomed, which I’m guess is big donor men folk mostly and their families…Just starting there you could have a decent sized group.
@ mot:
There are many Southern Baptist Churches with majority of black members … and traditionally in the black community, women are strong matriarchs and often the old grandmother will be the head of a family;
so I wonder if women preachers in the predominantly black Southern Baptist Churches are not the more acceptable form of leadership in accordance with the traditions of matriarchy which spun out of the remnants of the old South?
Not to say that a strong matriarchal system is any more acceptable than a strong patriarchal system, as both emphasize something that relies on a warped view of equality of all persons who are gifted to share within the family structure and within the Church, each person with a dignity that does value ‘service’ over ‘control’.
Christiane wrote:
I do not know of any black SBC churches that have a woman pastor. That would be a violation of the 2000 BF&M.
mot wrote:
I know a church that was kicked out here, basically for switching to Unitarianism.
Christiane wrote:
I went to a funeral a few months back and one of the preachers was a black lady, which kind of led me to wonder how common that is in that community because nobody seemed to find it odd. I can’t remember her denomination, though.
Maranatha evaluation from 1982
Intro to the article: “In November 1982 a group of concerned evangelical Christians met for two days in Santa Barbara, California, with the leadership of Maranatha Christian Ministries (MCM) and three theological advisors to MCM.”
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/17055/a-statement-of-evaluation-regarding-maranatha-campus-ministriesmaranatha-christian-ministriesmaranatha-christian-church
A trait that we have seen all to often continued today in many of churchianity’s leaders.
A charge I am sure Maranatha denied at the time, but the above assertion misses it because it presumes that the poor schmuck receiving the “personal revelation” from their leadership, WAS IN NO POSITION to determine whether that ‘personal revelation’ went against Scripture.
His was but to do or die. 2 choices offered:
obedience to their way –
or
disobedience to their way as a result or your rebellion and/or demonic activity.
Interesting that possible Trinity issues date back so far into Maranatha.
The assessment continues:
Had this in our shepherding cult. Marriage needed their blessing/approval, women were discouraged from continuing their college education, selling or buying a house under their purview, visiting parents discouraged, one college professor was commanded to shave his beard so that his ‘weak chin’ could be seen for punishment for not being manly enough as a husband.
You might be amazed at the lengths or depths that leaders claiming such authority will go into and over the pewishioners’ lives – all for your own good, of course.
Kinda puts Darville’s response to that 60/40 vote in perspective.
Satan just keeps setting up the same scenario over and over in the church, and men keep joining right in – thinking they are justified in what they are doing.
@ Lea:
Hi LEA,
likely it was not a Southern Baptist Church, from what MOT has shared.
I just am wondering if in the black community, a woman preacher would not be more acceptable to a congregation, as ‘matriarchy’ seems to be a social structure that has been present in that community for some time. Conjecture on my part.
Gram3 wrote:
The scariest thing to read in history is the bad stuff that eventually becomes the normal. It becomes so normal people don’t bother questioning it. The few who do, must live with being unpopular outliers for a long time.
Usually the bad stuff does not look like bad stuff but a great thing at the time. A solution, social experiment or progression that people did not really think through for the long term ramifications.
They become almost insurmountable to fix at some point.
I view the rise of mega churches in this way along with many other things. A mega church is not a sin just for existing but the operating systems necessitate changes in some of the foundational premises of Christianity.
I do think the concept paved the way for the even more authoritarian but smaller Neo Cal churches.
I am a genius who predicted the near demise of mega churches 15 years ago. I just could not see the long term sustainability. But I am not clever. There is always a way. Satellite campi, celebrity and a 5 year generational window in which to recruit a new crop. The youth department. And now, 30 years later, many people will go back to what they are familiar with or get out. The megas are not doctrinally deep so there is no determinist God to eventually hate.
JYJames wrote:
Ever heard of “Divide & Conquer”?
Lydia wrote:
“What Could Possibly Go Wrong” is eventually replaced by “But How Was I to Know?”
And after a generation or two, it becomes the New Normal and Fish Don’t Know They’re Wet.
Maranatha, authority & shepherding. Darville spent 12 years in this ‘ministry’.
http://culteducation.com/group/1044-maranatha-ministries/13243-maranatha-christians-backing-rightist-ideas-draw-fire-over-tactics.html
As early as 1983 authoritarian shepherding was an issue, resulting in a couple of pastors leaving.
Darville continued at Maranatha for another 7 years after.
Mr. Weiner admits he has had difficulty with the control issue, difficulty that he attributes to putting younger, more inexperienced leaders in a counseling position over new members.
“There are a lot of these guys who were trying to be like me and they didn’t have the gift to do that,” he says. “Some of them were overzealous and caused a lot of problems.”
Wooop, der it is!
It’s not a fault of my doctrine – it’s those young, zealous whippersnappers!
I don’t know, but maybe there’s something to the instruction that leaders are to be ELDers?
You know, men who have lived long enough in the real world to have experienced a thing or two?
Who have established with people (in the area) with whom he has interacted who would assert that he is of good reputation?
Darville soaked in this for 12 years – in a leadership position.
elastigirl wrote:
As they see it, ordaining a woman is a rejection of the authority of the Bible. Obviously, they do not see that ignoring the facts when elders/deacons fail to fulfill the Biblical qualifications also is departing from the authority of the Bible.
I think that it is easier and more obvious to see “woman in pulpit” than it is to see “abuser and overlord in pulpit.” Combine that with cognitive inertia–we have always done it this way–and it seems reasonable to lump being female with other unpardonable pastoral sins such as being an adulterer.
BL wrote:
Because church should definitely be run like greek rush week…
BL wrote:
Say! That sounds like 9Marx excuse for why ‘discipline’ tends to go wrong. What do you know?
JYJames wrote:
Not Us and Them.
Darville and the Devil.
Failure to support the leader in his visions and goals, is evidence that you are NOT following God.
Because the leader is.
You, in failing to submit to his visions and goals, have proven that you are either not of God at all, or as a result of your disobedience and rebellion, you are a tool of Satan being used to attack what God is doing in the world right now with Mr Leader Got a Vision.
Pewishioners do not really work together with leadership.
Pewishioners only work FOR the leadership.
And if the pewishioners will not do what the leadership is instructing them to do – then they have no place in the leader’s kingdom.
BL wrote:
Seems like Mark Dever was channeling Weiner when he told the 9Marks guys to take it slow on implementing the LocalChurch “reforms” that are so essential to the gospel. Lots of young guys–Dever has legions of interns and former interns–doing what he taught them to do. As you said, what did he expect? They see him as god, just like the Maranatha guys saw Weiner. It is idolatry of man, pure and simple. Ironic given the emphasis they put on avoiding man-centered faith.
Lea wrote:
Some variation of the above has been in *every* so-called ‘apology’ I have located from leaders whose ministry terminated or temporarily exploded into the public’s eye.
Lea wrote:
Beat me to it, Great Mind!
BL wrote:
I think Matt Chandler’s lame excuse was that they failed to use sufficient sensitivity when they pushed Karen Hinckley under their “care.” It wasn’t an epic failure of their system. It was an isolated incident where the implementation was sub-optimal.
Gram3 wrote:
Which just tells you that they still. don’t. get it.
Maranatha testimonies:
http://culteducation.com/group/1044-maranatha-ministries/13243-maranatha-christians-backing-rightist-ideas-draw-fire-over-tactics.html
Interesting that the Maranatha leaders suddenly heard from the Lord about the dangers of tampons right after it became a major media news-storm.
Would it not have been much more discerning, for them to heard what they supposedly heard BEFORE it hit the news media?
Just what *every* woman would have longed for in their early 20s, having men in their mid 20s telling them how to handle their menses.
The ‘evil spirit’ they were attempting to exorcise was actually her mind and her conscience.
It’s so nice that *today* we now have the Council For Biblical Manhood and Womanhood to assist us with upping levels of sanctified testosterone in order to deal with this sort of issue…
@ Gram3:
An appropriate analogy.
siteseer wrote:
Ha! Ronnie Floyd, Jack Graham, Richard Land, Russell Moore, Jerry Falwell ………
@ mot:
Do you remember when that magazine with black female pastors on the cover was treated almost like pornography by LifeWay? They pulled it from the racks and quietly sold it from under the counter.
http://www.ethicsdaily.com/report-lifeway-pulls-magazine-featuring-women-preachers-cms-13215
BL wrote:
LOL.
BL wrote:
These people are so weird.
I don’t think normal people have problems ‘being’ male or female. It takes no effort or training to be oneself. The people who come up with this stuff are deeply disturbed themselves.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Hmmmmm ….. Back to “American Pie”, ” …… went to the levy but the levy was dry …..”?
Deb wrote:
Oh! Forgot about that. My impression was that nobody in the huge funeral thought this lady pastor was at all strange. (Also, she was hilarious.)
From the article: “Far less than one percent of churches cooperating with the Southern Baptist Convention have ever called a woman as pastor. ”
And yet, they were SO SUPER SKEERED of this one percent that they felt the need to change this stuff, and that in the year 2000, not olden times. Ridiculous.
Gram3 wrote:
“Episodic abuse” or “incidental abuse” can always be linked to specific individuals.
But “systemic abuse” means that the strategies and tactics of power-mongering are so ingrained into the WHAT of the infrastructure that they are pervasive — then it doesn’t so much the particular WHO that happens to be there.
Until there’s a recognition that the systemically abusive paradigm is built on “DNA of inherent damage,” then an organization and its leaders can always downgrade each incident to personal failure by one or more of the guys, meaning that he/they can overcome the problem by him/them just doing better next time — just be “perfect” and no one gets hurt, right?
But you overcome systemic abuse by putting it into the spotlight, diagnosing the source problems in the organization’s principles and practices, and dismantling them to replace the paradigm parts that can work with a system of empowerment and remove those that support a system of overpowering.
Gram3 wrote:
The despots were just having a bad day, don’t blame it on their system.
There was mention on the other thread at TWW of the recent article “3 Ways the Gospel Might Divide a Church” over at The Gospel Coalition site. I decided to comment in response to another commenter who asked: “Is this division of a “church” necessary for the church to be Calvinistic if it is not already?” Jared Wilson responded: “I’m not sure I understand the question. Could you restate it? (The post has nothing to do with Calvinism for what it’s worth).” We’ll see if Jared Wilson responds to my comment. This is what I said:
“Jared, I think I understand what Tom Parker is trying to convey. In other words, should a pastor with Calvinist proclivities divide a church congregation that is non-Calvinist in its tenets? I’ve heard that this has happened on more than one occasion. That local church is divided because the folks are not able to embrace Calvinism. Should Reformed theology be the determining factor in dividing a local church that has been non-Calvinistic in its beliefs for many decades or even a century?”
So, do y’all think Mr. Wilson will respond to my comments?
Gram3 wrote:
Taking it ‘slow’ …. like putting a live lobster into a warm comfortable cooking pot and then SLOWLY increasing the heat, thinking all the while that the poor creature will be cooked before it realizes its fate … only in the case of the neo-Cal ‘go slowly’ technique, the goal is NOT a humane attempt to minimize pain, just to lull people into trusting up to the point where they’re goose is cooked …. the neo’s don’t want to ‘alarm’ anyone unduly and have people wake up to what is about to overtake their family and tear it apart …. no, the ‘go slow’ thing is NOT a humane gesture, just something so much the opposite, it defies any attempt to label it ‘of Christ’
Darlene wrote:
“will” respond ???
OR
“is able to” respond ???
Lea wrote:
Well, see they go and add a word – and it suddenly becomes “Biblical” manhood, “Biblical” womanhood – which means that all bets are off and leaves *everyone* confused AND questioning.
Men and women come in a wide range of variations, but NOW we’ve got to go find out exactly what BIBLICAL manhood and BIBLICAL womanhood is.
And since we pewishioners are obviously incapable of determining what kind of man or woman God wants us individually to be, we have to have someone, say, like the Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood to ‘splain it all to us.
I’m sorry, but the whole idea that some *people* gathered themselves together and appointed themselves the arbiters of “Biblical” manhood and womanhood just pegs my hubris meter.
Really?
And it gets even funnier – their board was (don’t know if it has changed) 100% MALE.
dee wrote:
There are some people who have gone into the ministry to become pastors from my former Christian cult. However, they have publicly repudiated the leader of the cult, and have sought counseling in order to heal from the spiritual abuse.
BL wrote:
Anyone come up with “Biblical Bible” yet?
Christiane wrote:
I think Mr. Wilson is certainly *able* to respond. But is he willing? What does he have to lose by being honest & forthright? (sarcasm meter high) 😉
BL wrote:
Exactly. I think the bible calls for ELDER women to teach the younger, no? Maybe that was wise. Otherwise apparently you get 30 year old dudebros dumb ideas, creepy old dudes favorite hairstyle, and Driscol/Wilson’s conquer/plant/constant bj’s form of advice.
NONE of which is actually biblical.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
“Systemic Abuse” means it’s Built Into The SYSTEM.
At which point specific individuals can come and go, but The SYSTEM goes on unchanged and doing its thing.
Like the difference between Naziism (largely a personality cult centered around the person of Der Fuehrer) and Communism (a SYSTEM of Ideology). Take out Der Fuehrer and the first cult weakens considerably (if not crumbles completely); swap out Comrade People’s Leader in the second and a new one from the Inner Ring of The SYSTEM will replace him overnight.
Lea wrote:
Among all the detailed Demon/Witch Sex of the Malleus Malefacarium, isn’t there a section of case studies on how Witches are always trying to steal or disappear or hex a man’s penis?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
LOL, HEADLESS!
actually, your question makes sense to me … in a strange kind of convoluted way, each translation of a translation of a translation with ‘footnotes’ and ‘commentaries’ and ‘study notes’ …. I do wonder about this EXCEPT that I trust the Holy Spirit’s power to see that the salient points get through to the ones who seek the Lord earnestly
I don’t really think that there is anyone with the power to screw that miracle up …. not even the authors of the LOLCat Bible, and goodness knows, they gave it a great shot 🙂
@ elastigirl:
That's a good description of our blog. I'm sure it drives newcomers CRAZY! My best advice is just skip over comments that don't interest or apply to you. I have done this on occasion, and I co-write this blog. 🙂
Time is precious, and we all have to prioritize…
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Which is, in part, why we need to be aware of SGAs — Second Generation Adults — those raised in the SYSTEM (ideology, values, organizational strategies and structures, culture, modes of collaboration or isolation, etc.) and who therefore grew up absorbing the SYSTEM by osmosis, for better, or for worse.
For instance, regardless of what opinion one has about the UK vote yesterday on remaining in or exiting the European Union, there is some intriguing poll information on age groups and percentages of Remain vs. Leave:
AGE: 18-24 – 64% Remain, 24% Leave
AGE: 25-49 – 45% Remain, 39% Leave
AGE: 50-64 – 35% Remain, 49% Leave
AGE: 65+ — 33% Remain, 58% Leave
[SOURCE: Polling data from YouGov. Sorry, I don’t have the exact link. Check: https://yougov.co.uk/news/categories/europe/ ]
Key fact: The UK joined the EU in 1973. So basically, anyone born about 1966 and thereafter would be in their formative years with EU as part of the framework of their childhood. What does that instill in them? Those born in 1966 would now be 49/50 years old, so their age cohort is in the 45% Remain group.
The UK vote is more complicated than just age factors, but the generational divides are worth looking at.
So … what does having a generation reared in authoritarianism mean? Homeschoolers Anonymous gives some insight into that …
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Shhhhh! Don’t give em’ any ideas!
BL wrote:
THIS THIS THIS THIS is exactly how I see it.
One thing to realize about Maranatha’s no dating policy was that they called it the “dating revelation.” As was shared in the post it was:
The person would submit what they felt God was saying to who was “over them in the Lord.” Towards the end the group did get away from that policy probably due to external pressure etc.
Muff Potter wrote:
Too late! Isn’t that what the ESV is supposed to be? 😉
@ brad/futuristguy:
You might find these stats interesting.
http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2016/06/24/brexit-demographic-divide-eu-referendum-results/
@ Steve240:
I understand from a reliable source that at one time those involved in Campus Outreach had to get permission from their leaders to date a certain individual.
Does anyone know if this is still the case?
BL wrote:
Huh? I thought it was the KJV, but I’m SBC.
Lowlandseer wrote:
Thanks … will check them out …
dee wrote:
You are right, Dee. Another thing to consider is time away from such an abusive cult. It takes years, in some cases a few decades for a person to be deprogrammed from toxic thinking and behavior. A person should never just leave a shepherding cult like Maranatha (btw, the cult I was in was a *shepherding* cult) and plunge into ministry elsewhere. You’ll be carrying a lot of baggage with you and repeating the same mistakes all over again. A person who wants to become a pastor or go into ministry after being in an abusive cult should undergo professional psychotherapy with a written release form verifying that this is the case – AND that they are competent to be in ministry again.
Lea wrote:
IMO they added this provision to remove the “moderates–LIBERAL” with a conscience. Sadly some SBC positions require you to sign a document saying you affirm all of the 2000 BF&M. If you do not it makes it clear you are not one of “them” and are not allowed to serve in that position. Being an SBC missionary is one example of having to sign a document saying your affirm all of the 2000 BF&M. Sadly the monsters that rammed the 2000 BF&M into the SBC world knew exactly what they were doing. I will call them what they are-EVIL!!
Deb wrote:
Yes, I remember this. Once again made the SBC look silly. SBC leaders are deathly afraid of WOMEN. Lottie Moon IMO would never be allowed to be an SBC missionary today. She had too much spunk and would not have put up with this male superiority mess the SBC advocates every chance they get.
Darlene wrote:
Not with any meaningful response. That is certain.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
ESV Study Bible.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Exactly. This is why I learned to focus on patterns and institutional culture. I have lived long enough to see the players change and it did not change a thing except perhaps more clever at utilizing the system in place.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
A question we must answer soon! There is a sort of disdain for senior wisdom. At some point when one ages and is aware. they see tiny parts of history repeats itself in another venue.
It is important to pair life experience/wisdom with youthful energy and ideas.
We see our seniors as fit for greeting at Walmart but not as intellectual and emotional intelligence sources.
Deb wrote:
Wow, just wow! The arrogance is just stunning.
Well more like the 60% that voted for him before all resigned – but just in case – Personal invitations were sent to those they elected – I mean selected
BL wrote:
Oh, I think some guys, who are controllers by nature, instinctively catch on to how it works very quickly and jump in with both feet.
Nancy2 wrote:
As a dog lover and observer of complementarianism in the home, I must say that being loved like a dog and pups would be a huge step up for many of these “complementary” wives and first-time-obedient children. People love dogs and pups without condition.
Lea wrote:
United Methodist, Episcopalian, PCUSA, ELCA, AME, unaffiliated…? Plenty of Christian denominations and (truly) autonomous congregations ordain women, and not all are white. I might not be understanding your question, though.
BL wrote:
In that case the wheel takes leave, Ezekiel 10, but maybe that’s another Leadership and another Church. Not Darville and comrades.
Friend wrote:
YES 🙂
And the dogs reciprocate that love unconditionally. Just saw ‘Hatchi’ the movie on Netflix (or was in Amazon Prime Video) and cried my eyes out ….. so much love
My pup has my heart. Unconditionally.
Maybe these patriarchal types could learn from the animals which the Bible says is possible to do.
@ Lost all trust:
Great comment!
Christiane wrote:
That’s it. I wonder if therapy dogs are used in de-programming cult victims?
@ Friend:
I’m not sure what my question even was lol! But distracted today.
I did ask a coworker about this and of course I can’t remember what he said. Helpful I know.
Darlene wrote:
No. Remember, the abusive shepherding movement charismatic SGM was welcomed into the SBC fold with open arms. The Neo-cal playbook fits with this fist-in-glove.
Friend wrote:
You’re probably right! We have 4 dogs – all are spoiled rotten! Especially Lizzie, aka Queen Elizabeth III. She is very demanding ….. and bossy!
Debi Calvet wrote:
How COULD they be singing that hymn? Calvinists don’t believe that ‘God died for me’, because they don’t believe that the whole Person of Christ died on the Cross. On the Ligonier site, Sproul wrote that only the human ‘nature’ of Christ was crucified. Whereas in orthodox Christianity, it is held that the Person of Christ was crucified.
Are the neo-Cals that different from the Calvinist Ligonier teaching of Sproul, that they can about the Death of God on the Cross when Calvinists don’t believe in the crucifixion of the Person of Christ (full God and full Man)?
I’m confused.
@ Debi Calvet:
Seemed to me at the time, as I tried to listen to that young pastor, who is a son of a former member, he was incoherent, spastic, and I have no idea what he was talking about. I wonder if we, fbcrm, are still supporting his church in Philly named Redemption City.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Well, it was in Louisville, Kentucky where Mahaney retreated from the child abuse scandal! But the news about SGM and Mahaney joining SBC was kept fairly quiet. The local association welcomed them in, but it took a while for the news to filter out to SBC beyond Louisville, ground zero for New Calvinism.
siteseer wrote:
It would put a damper on his career, me thinks. 😉
Lydia wrote:
This was not always so. It has only recently been made so by a vapid and rapacious consumer culture that exploits the hunger in every human heart for more. It will be our undoing. There were times, and all cultures have their own versions of it, when the tribal story teller, old, wizened and scarred, gathered the young’ns (and the old ones too) for yarnin’, and they listened raptly.
Dennis and Maranatha
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1807&dat=19811014&id=oewcAAAAIBAJ&sjid=LH8EAAAAIBAJ&pg=3005,1432632&hl=en
@ Kay Edwards:
Thanks for this newspaper advertisement! I am switching out the picture at the top of this post and putting in this ad. Great work!
@ Kay Edwards:
Wow! Gee, I thought the neoCals hated prosperity gospel.
@ Deb:
Your welcome! Needless to say I did not drink the Kool-Aid. These past 5 months have been an emotional rollercoaster at times. If there is anything I have learned is God has to be First in my life and in the life of a church. In the past few months I have had the privilege to see just how much God will bless a body of believers when God is truly put first!!!
@ Debi Calvet:
Should have been there….I WAS! The young preacher was Dennis' boy Stephen Weeks who was also SEBTS taught. He had been doing campus ministry at N.C. Wesleyan College (NCWC) and had a good following. He was getting a lot of attention from the congregation. Dennis took care of that, sent the boy to Philly to plant a church. The week before Dr Clark, you know it, the Pres at NCWC was in the pulpit. Funny, that's where C3 — that's what they call their new church, you know Dennis, he has to be COOL AND RELEVANT — is meeting now!
Dr Clark is a great guy doing great thing at NCWC. Sadly, Dennis' smooth talk hooked him too! I noticed they had the kool-aid tent up on Easter Sunday so the C3'ers could get a sip on their way in. Can't wait to see who DD blows up at next. Control freaks can't control their own emotions, and it's just a matter of time. Can't believe long time BSF lecture leader Brad Bobbit sucking on the kool-aid straw. Hey, he's an Elder now!
God has never sanctioned a split church, and this IS NOT A CHURCH PLANT!! MORE TO COME!
@ Kay Edwards:
You hang in there! We will continue to follow this story.
Found the following link in which Darville announces the upcoming church-wide study at FBCRM on “Biblical Church Structure”
http://storage.cloversites.com/firstbaptistchurchrockymount/documents/January%202015%20Newsletter.pdf
@ Stan:
Hee.hee. Success is defined as following them or going into paid ministry.
@ BL:
Sorry for my childishness, but barf!
@ BL:
Sorry for my childishness, but barf!!
Catherine wrote:
LOL. It looked like he was prepping the field for his desired upcoming changes.
@ Atticus Finch:
I don’t believe we are.
Deb wrote:
Thanks!!
As a first hand witness to the split at FBCRM, I am pondering what needs to be accomplished from this post? When asked “why am I following this post so closely?” The answer for me is….the truth. Where is the truth in all this mess? Are the ones that stayed at FBCRM wrong? Are the ones who split, and now meet at a rented space at Wesleyan college, wrong? What we need is the truth. We were a family. A family that did life together. Oh, and many of us are blood family too and it makes holidays and birthdays quite tricky. We don’t mention Jesus or church, which is hard because that is what we are about….”mentioning the name of Jesus”. We went on vacation together, we attended weddings together, we went oversees to Africa, Ecuador, and Belarus together. We had Christ as our common ground and we were a family. Now 200 of our family has left. They left in a grand exodus. It was dramatic and yes, it made a statement. The statement…We are right and you are wrong. There were those who stayed for a week or two with us. But it looks like they stayed so that they could get the last little things that were important to them. For some it was money for their missions. For some it was so they could work the personnel committee and give $6,000 longevity pay to a pastor who left. As I have stated before we all have a bias, So I can understand you taking your stand and staying with the ungodly to get what you needed to get. Truth be told I am sure I would of done same thing. But why am I glued to this post? Because I need this mess at FBC to be wrapped up. I need to move on. I know NOW that the hurt will stay, many people including the authors of TWW still hurt. Ok, I will prepare for hurt forever. But when can I sit in the pews of FBC an not watch our guest speakers with a magnifying glass? Is it because these fill-ins are from SEBS? Maybe? Maybe I just don’t trust anyone anymore who comes “In the name of the Lord.” I do know from this I have seen the Lord. I saw the Lord clean up positions that needed to be removed. I saw Him bring people that I really didn’t know what type of Christian they were to the front and vocal center of all this. I actually saw a second string of Christians come play the game. I am saddened these second string Christian where put on second string. Because believe me…they are NO second string players. I now have friendships with people that I need and love that 1 year ago I really had no clue what kind of person they were. I have been in my Bible more in the past 3 years than I ever was. The Bible has actually become supernatural to me. It is living and it has become my friend who answers the tough questions, where I used to go ask one of the first string Christians my question.
Again, why am I here at TWW? Because I am hurt. I need clarification. I need to know what is and has gone on at FBCRM, my home. We need a platform, it is obvious from the numbers of post that many, many members need clarification and need not to feel alone..or more importantly the ones IN THE WRONG. If this post just could of been done in house and not for everyone to see. Too late. The one good thing of this public divorce of FBCRM is that now when someone starts to wonder if they are in a cult like church now they won’t have to dig and research so deep in the web. Now if you google certain words and certain people, it is the first site that comes up. Is this the hand of the Lord or is it a work of the devil? You choose, Because you are equipped to do so.
Watchman on the wall wrote:
There are no words which will explain what happened. In these words of yours, though, I see the seeds of healing and growing. Give yourself some time and time with the people–the second stringers–who have shown with their lives who they follow as their lord/Lord. God will sort this out, but it will not remove the painful memories. One of the FBCRM commenters likened it to a very public and very nasty divorce.
I hope that you find some comfort here with the rest of us who are working through difficult church issues and trying to shine a light. We understand your hurt. I personally understand being caught up in something that was neither true nor centered on Jesus, so in a way I understand how people who left got caught up in that. May God grant them the wisdom to seek the truth and the grace and courage to accept that truth.
May God grant the leadership at SEBTS the wisdom to really “seek the fame of Jesus name,” as they so often say, rather than their own fame. May he grant them the humility to acknowledge the great harm that they, perhaps unwittingly, are promoting in Jesus’ name. May they be willing to “write a blank check to Jesus” by repenting and possibly putting their livelihoods on the line to do what is right.