A TWW Tutorial: Assessing Comments on Dennis Darville Mess at First Baptist Church Rocky Mount

"The Puritan's idea of hell is a place where everybody has to mind his own business."  Wendell Phillips link

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First Baptist Church Rocky Mount

Words can be twisted. People often try to couch the true meaning of a difficult word in pious terms, in order to sound *nice* when, in reality, they are being abusive. I just started reading a dystopian fiction called Unwound. In this book, the killing of unwanted teenagers is called *unwinding". The body parts are donated to recipients so the teen *lives on* in a vague technical sense. In other words, they are still alive when they are not.

In America after the Second Civil War, the Pro-Choice and Pro-Life armies came to an agreement: The Bill of Life states that human life may not be touched from the moment of conception until a child reaches the age of thirteen. Between the ages of thirteen and eighteen, however, a parent may choose to retroactively get rid of a child through a process called "unwinding." Unwinding ensures that the child's life doesn’t “technically” end by transplanting all the organs in the child's body to various recipients. 

Recognizing spiritual abuse

Today, as I read comments by *Elizabeth*, I realized that she was using language that could be considered *spiritually abusive*. I have no idea whether she meant to be abusive, but she was. Perhaps she has been involved too long with people who play games with Biblical terminology which *prove* their utterances and practices are OK.

I highly recommend the book The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse: Recognizing and Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority Within the ChurchIt is an easy read; yet it powerfully presents how to spot spiritual abuse. It is written for those who have been abused and those who do the abusing. I recommend this book to everyone involved in the poorly handled situation at First Baptist Church Rocky Mount (FBCRM). 

The Deebs have been at this blogging game for 7 years. We have written extensively about pastors going into successful churches and driving them into the ground as they applied their authoritarian tactics. We have also written about churches that called pastors and within a couple of years, a bait and switch occurs in which the real personality and theology of the pastor emerges. You can read about this in our blog post regarding First Baptist Church, Durham. Durham is 82 miles from Rocky Mount. Both churches are within easy driving distance of SEBTS which appears to be supporting a strong, authoritarian Calvinist bent in SBC churches. I wonder if this was conveyed to the people of FBCRM…

You can also read about a similar circumstance in a series we did on Countryside Bible Church. That newly called pastor essentially closed the door on a vibrant church which fell victim to his hard hearted, egotistical nonsense. That pastor is still being *touted* by the Acts 29 Network, another authoritarian Calvinist *coalition* that has ties to The Gospel Coalition, Matt Chandler and The Village Church, etc.

When Deb first told me about the recent events at FBC Rocky Mount, I had the infamous *Wartburg Tingle*. The story followed a playbook that we have heard about once too often. After reading about the situation, I believe the stories of the ones *left behind* at FBCRM. So, today, when we received some comments from a new commenter, Elizabeth, I knew the spin was on. As The Deebs discussed the comments while reviewing some of the things we know *behind the scenes,* we decided it might be helpful to review Elizabeth's comments for our readers and show you what we think when we get such comments. Consider this another one of our famous *tutorials*.

1. The other side always shows up in some sort of disguised form.

Always be prepared for this to occur when the victims finally get their story out. Sometimes these spinmeisters start slowly, pretending that they are merely asking questions. By about the 3rd comment, however, they lower the boom. Then there are those who dive right in, immediately accusing your adorable blog princesses of gossip, slander, yellow journalism (Dee looks great in yellow, BTW) etc., which for the uninitiated, is another way of saying, "Shut up". We wrote about this in When Accusations of Gossip Become Gag Orders.

Let's take a look at the first comment by Elizabeth who showed up to tell us that she knows what *really happened*.

As someone who watched this from the outside and attends neither church, perhaps I can lend some facts to the speculation: this was a sad state of affairs, for sure, as it is sad when any church is rent in two. I think God weeps at this. However, since everything you’ve written has been “we’ve heard” or “it seems,” I think it’s irresponsible to place all the blame on people following one leader in a cult-like way. There is a divide in ways of thinking in baptists that spans generations (not just the last few years) that separates those who believe different things about church government. Assuming that people that believe one way about it are being led astray while others are thinking rightly about it sounds self-righteous and hopefully that’s not what all these commenters mean. I know for a fact that this new church (I agree with not calling it a church plant) was not planned over the span of a year. I also know that they are not receiving funding from namb or otherwise. When you have a church of 300+ from the jump you don’t have to take a pay cut; the members tithe like usual. 

As a former pastor’s kid who has been through public family disgrace, I have a very sensitive BS monitor. Though Dennis is smooth like some say, he has been honest with FBCRM from the beginning and not the liar people are claiming. I’ve witnessed his honesty with this congregation on multiple congregations. The rumors and lies that the members of FBCRM have circulated have hurt a lot of people and I hope that they and you (Dee, Deb, and anyone else commenting) will remember that when you’re discussing ideas that’s one thing, but when you begin to speculate and gossip about people’s fathers, brothers, sisters, moms, etc, you can really hurt people.

Elizabeth claimed to be an outsider.

This assertion is baloney. She has oodles of specific information, which means she is heavily involved with one of the players in this situation. From this moment on, I knew I was dealing with someone who is not prone to being transparent, or telling the truth. Therefore, all of her comments are suspect. 

Elizabeth claimed to know the facts.

This is her way of telling all of us that we are wrong.  Only her information supplier is telling the truth. If one says anything that disagrees with her *facts*, then that person is obviously not telling the truth. What she is saying is that all of those nice people who are still at FBCRM are liars. However, we already know that Elizabeth is not leveling with us in this comment, so we should suspect that her *facts* may not be "the whole truth and nothing but the truth".

She claimed that our blog post is speculation.

This is very interesting to me. She is obviously hearing this from others since she has never attended the church, but her information is factual. We received information from those attending the church and went through the split, but our thinking is only conjecture. Matt Chandler tried this nonsense on us, claiming that we didn't know the *whole story*. He ended up apologizing to his church a couple of weeks later. You see, we did know the story. In this situation, after hearing from the people who have been affected by Darville's poor leadership, we choose to believe the ones left behind.

She also claimed that The Deebs are irresponsible.

This is typical codswallop on the part of a person who is demonizing the reporters who disagree with her spin on the story. This church split was poorly handled by Darville, in my opinion. It is my guess that many people, after reading about this, will also agree with us. So, in order to limit the damage by TWW telling the story, Elizabeth tried to bring us down a few notches. 

She says that this split was just a simple disagreement on polity.

The commenter is trying to downplay the heavy handed way that this *polity* was being implemented. This is a typical *nothing to see here so move along* statement meant to diminish the actual events. Sorry, that dog won't hunt. A 130 year, successful church was lopped in two by an ineffective pastor. There is definitely something to see here, and we are looking at it very, very carefully.

This outsider continues to tutor us on the facts in spite of the *fact* that we know she is not being honest with us.

She alludes that the big tithers went with the new church. I wonder if those folks know that they are expected to give lots of money to continue this expensive proposition. She also knows the NAMB didn't fund this venture. I guess she has an "in" at the NAMB. I can't even get them to tell me how many church plants have failed.  Of course, no one really knows what is going on with the NAMB and IMB these days, do they?

Elizabeth has a very sensitive BS meter.

She is now saying that this post is BS. TWW is also known for its sensitive BS meter… Please note that Elizabeth claims to have witnessed the *honesty* of Darville with his congregation on "multiple congregations". We think she meant to say "on multiple occasions". Stop the presses! Since she has never attended either church and is an outsider, how in the world did she "witness his honesty?" Is she a vagrant living in a deserted room in the church? This is poppycock!

Elizabeth lectured everyone on gossip and speculation that *hurts people*.

Elizabeth took the liberty of hurting people who were already reeling from the pain of the church break-up. Seems like she needs to spot the log in her own eye.

This story and the pain of those left behind made its way to Raleigh, many miles away. If Elizabeth and/or her family/friends can't stand the heat that comes with a most public church dustup, then do something else. Remember, Jesus was crucified in public in front of His mother. Yet He was kind, even to those who crucified Him. We are to be lights on a hill, even in the middle of conflict. In fact, it would have been an incredible witness if things had been handled by Darville and his BFFs in a loving manner. They weren't. 

2. Elizabeth blamed the decent people who listened to Danville's preaching for not knowing what his intentions were.

If one does research on spiritual abuse, one finds that those who cause the mess often turn the table and blame those who didn't support the leader. It is a bait and switch tactic. The innocent folks become the *problem*.

I can assure you there is nothing hidden about his beliefs. He was interim there for a year before they "called" him as pastor. So if they couldn't hear what he was saying from the pulpit for a year I guess they weren't listening?

…Just that you yourself said he preached there for over a year. Why would they call him if the content of his sermons was something they were offended by or didn’t want? The point being they didn’t go into this blindly like you seemed to be suggesting (that his motives or ideologies would have been hidden to the congregation

Elizabeth somehow knows his internal and external beliefs.

Once again, she is not leveling with us. Is she married to him? Is she even a she?

Elizabeth blamed the victims for not "listening."

Apparently Elizabeth is unaware of how things work in today's churches. Pastors can lie, obfuscate, break promises, etc., all in the name of making a church more biblical.™ I bet the people *listened* and did not hear exactly how things were going to be handled. Read our blog. It happens all the time. Pastors are as sinful as the congregation.

I wonder… Did Darville tell the members he would start a new church with his followers if they didn't do things his way? Betcha he didn't!

Oh yeah – how does she know what he said? She was never there…or was she lying?

3. Elizabeth pulled the ever desperate bitterness card.

Here is a major clue that you are being had. 

I  can tell you have been hurt by this and trust me I am so sad for you. I think this whole this is horrible. I actually do know what has gone on and do know facts but I won’t tell you exactly how. I know that there have been many injustices and wrongs on both sides and I hate that there have even been sides. I hope you will go forth in love and not bitterness.

Sarah Moon wrote a great post called Beautiful, Beautiful Bitterness. Here is what she has to say about the misuse of this word.

I am called bitter whenever I talk about my past, whenever I call out spiritual abuse that I see happening in the present. I am called bitter whenever I talk about anything negative: injustice, abuse, oppression, bullying. Even when I talk about situations that I have personally “moved on” from, situations where I have forgiven those involved and more or less healed from the harm done, I am called bitter.

…The people who tell me “Stop being bitter” usually aren’t concerned with my well-being like my trusted friends are.

The people who tell me “Stop being bitter” usually want to control me. 

They will call me bitter, like one might call another woman “crazy” or “slutty” or “too emotional.” They will call me bitter, whether I truly am or not, because it is a way to silence me and—if the silencing doesn’t work—to discredit me.

As you go through life, as you start to tell your story, as you start to speak against injustice, as you start to call out abusive power in the church, as you try to reach out to others who might share your pain, you will be called bitter. 

Moon puts a positive spin on this word.

There are people who want you quiet, and they want you non-threatening. Some even want you to be alone, afraid, and hurting.

They don’t want you to dig out past hurts so you can move beyond them, because when you are whole, you are a threat. They don’t want you to speak, because injustice feeds off of silence.

They want you quiet, because words bring people together.

Let them call you bitter.

Because according to them, bitter is speaking. Bitter is surviving. Bitter is joining together with others to work for change. Bitter is facing our fears and refusing to turn our heads when abuse and injustice are happening.

Bitter is a beautiful, beautiful thing.

To our friends at FBCRM, don't let them dictate to you how you must grieve. Talk to each other and heal. Yes, it is alright to be bitter. Your beautiful church was dragged through the mud. The others don't want you to be upset because they want to move on and not have to listen or admit to the hurt that they have caused you.

4. Elizabeth tried to conflate the complaints of FBCRM members and lectures them on how long to be angry.

Read her last sentence carefully. It has some elements of abuse in it.

Thanks for your wisdom! Certainly not implying that you don’t have your own experience. I actually do have facts not just beliefs, and have many friends at both churches. But again, not trying to diminish your hurt and heartache bc I think any time a church is torn apart it is an absolute tragedy and I hope the best for you and your church. Like I mentioned in my original comment, I have an unfortunate lot of experience with this kind of sadness and wouldn’t wish it on a single soul, that’s where I’m coming from. Just hope you can see that to make someone into a monster and stay angry doesn’t hurt the other person it only eats away at you (in my experience)

Elizabeth conflated the complaints about the pastor.

The Deebs have heard this story. Not one person ever called the pastor a *monster*. They believe he did something wrong. So do I. I believe he deserves the scorn of the folks that he hurt. That does not make him a monster. However, she is attempting to make the decent folks at FBCRM look as bad as possible.

Elizabeth wants people to stop being angry.

Never let someone tell you how long you should grieve or be angry. Something really bad happened at the church in the recent past. I know that all of you will mourn and be angry for a period of time. That times varies for each person. I hope a little of what happened will always stay with you so that you will be able to help others when they go through similar painful circumstances. I bet you will all do a far better job of being compassionate than Elizabeth.

5. Elizabeth attempts to make the people at FBCRM look bad by making a claim that the all of the pastors were kept at or below the poverty line.

This comment takes the cake. At this juncture, one can be sure that Elizabeth is gunning to make the people of FBCRM look bad, really bad. Not only is the comment ridiculous (how would she know) but this implicates even the people who left with Darville. 

Once again, Elizabeth plays games about her knowledge of this situation.

I’d just love to know how you know their heart motives to “take over a church” I guess, since a couple of these men worked for 15+ years at or below the poverty line as pastors at FBCRM. Doesn’t seem very cut throat or conniving to me. But I don’t think we will agree on it which is fine! I just see so much speculation on their motives from your end. You have already mentioned being disillusioned by church leadership so that’s ok if it’s where that’s coming from.

I didn't believe her as soon as I read the comment and thankfully, someone who knows better, answered her.

A rebuttal comment by Peter

Elizabeth said that two of these men “worked 15+ years at FBCRM at the poverty line or below”
Elizabeth, this is not opinion but a fact, the federal government defines the poverty level as an annual income of $23,283 or less for a family of four.
The two pastors who worked at FBCRM made around $74,000 base salary. They made six figures package(benefits: medical,disability,retirement etc)
This does not include all the extra benefits the congregation supported over the years BC WE LOVED these pastors and WE were HAPPY to do it such as, remodeling their home, buying Christmas trees,fixing their air conditioner when it broke, paying for dinners,lunches,breakfasts,buying them a car,paying for diapers,and providing a low interest loan…so please, Know your facts before you paint them as “impoverished”.

Final thought

I am so sorry for the needless pain and suffering inflicted on the FBCRM members by a pastor who had an agenda. I think back to a response from Dear Abby. A woman asked her what to do about her husband who was cheating. She was the second wife. Her husband had an affair with her while he was married to wife number one. Abby said something to the effect:

Remember, you married a man who has no problem cheating on his wife.

The people who left with Darville have their work cut out for them. This is a pastor who will cut and run as well as deflect when things do not go his way. I predict we will be hearing from some of those folks in the future.

Stay tuned on Wednesday when Deb will drop a bombshell on this situation. She came across some information today that we think will bring much clarity to this situation!

Comments

A TWW Tutorial: Assessing Comments on Dennis Darville Mess at First Baptist Church Rocky Mount — 417 Comments


  1. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Deebs, why not get the appropriate leaders at the seminary involved. They could possibly ameliorate some of the damage and/or participate as authority figures with regard to disciplining the rogue pastor.


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    @ Alan House:

    Why do you think that they disagree with what the pastor did?


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    A good analysis, Elizabeth used much from the playbook. Hers/his was a tour de farce.


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    Brilliant analysis! Oh that all could be schooled in spotting the manipulations of wolves in sheep's clothing.


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    Someone who I dearly love just asked me a few hours ago if I was bitter about what happened at FBC. I said, “Duhhhhh, you must not know me as well as I thought you did. I am bitter and I won’t lie about it. No need to be bitter and a liar.” Thank you for answering our prayers that this mess would be exposed. Exposed so that this won’t happen again to another church and to another group of believers who loved their pastors. History has a crazy way of repeating itself. I stand on the wall so that it won’t happen again. I praise the Lord for His mighty provisions thus far. Bitter is beautiful.


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    Well, I believe that they do not want to be seen as preparing pastors to tear churches apart. In light of the feeling among many traditionalist Southern Baptists (i.e. not Calvinistic) that (newly minted) Calvinist pastors are purposely seeking pastorates at Traditionalist SBC churches in order to bring the church under Calvinist doctrine, I feel they (SEBTS) will want to dispel the notion that such an attitude exists and that they, in no way, condone what has happened in this instance and possibly issue a statement seeing as how this may become a publicized issue. Notwithstanding, it seems that FBCRM may not have gotten it in writing that Darville was NOT a 5-pointer and did NOT favor any change away from congregational government. Once the pastor is in control of who the elders are, things can and often do go south. For decades, protestant evangelical pastors were on the short end of the stick where control and authority were concerned. Now, the worm has turned in very remarkable fashion. Sadly, much of it has to do with how pleasingly a man can preach. If he can REALLY communicate, chances are he will prosper financially and thereby increase his ability to control his situation (church). The examples of this are too numerous and obvious to mention.


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    Alan House wrote:

    For decades, protestant evangelical pastors were on the short end of the stick where control and authority were concerned

    Not in our neck of the woods. I attended an Evangelical church from 2000 to 2005 (and very loosely since then as my wife still attends) While not Calvinist, the pastors certainly did not lack in the control & authority department.


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    Alan House wrote:

    I believe that they do not want to be seen as preparing pastors to tear churches apart.

    Of course they don’t; however, it is happening more and more. Dee and I were hoping that at some point our blog wouldn’t be necessary, but the more these situations play out in churches across our land, the more difficult it is for us to cover all the tragic stories – there are just so many. :-(

    Rest assured, we are digging in our heels…


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    @ Watchman on the wall:

    We are praying for healing in your congregation. May God do a mighty work in your midst.


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    Alan House wrote:

    Notwithstanding, it seems that FBCRM may not have gotten it in writing that Darville was NOT a 5-pointer and did NOT favor any change away from congregational government.

    I have been thinking about this ever since we started blogging. 

    Congregations need to take a stand up front regarding church polity. Looks like this is what they're gonna have to do to protect themselves. Have an attorney draft an employment contract that the prospective pastor will not attempt to alter church polity. If he tries, he is in violation of that contract and is promptly dismissed. If a pastor refuses to sign such a contract, then he's not the right choice for your congregation.


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    Alan House wrote:

    Deebs, why not get the appropriate leaders at the seminary involved. They could possibly ameliorate some of the damage and/or participate as authority figures with regard to disciplining the rogue pastor.

    Let's see… Dennis Darville was/is a close colleague of Danny Akin since he worked at SEBTS for over a decade.

    Sorry, but it's not our responsibility to get the proper authorities involved, especially where there are such close ties between the 'rogue' pastor and the institution where he was educated (B.A. and M.Div.) and built a career.


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    __

    “Column Right Hartch …?” 

    hmmm…

    Without the tenets of the reformed faith, which is Calvinism, you are not really saved?

    huh?

      For these New Calvinist folks, if you are not sporting Calvinism, you are not really saved. So they believe in what they are doing is bringing 501(c)3 uninitiated church folk the ‘true gospel’. So their ends actually justify their ends.

    So prepare to be saved in John Calvin ICR style, as their young jack bootz initiates are coming to a church near you…

    What?!?

    (could b.)

    march, march, march, march…

    (sadface)

    hum, hum, hum…dead religious skunk in da middle of da chuxch, and itz stinkin’ ta high heaven…PU 

    Sopy


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    Deebs, thanks for giving us a forum. Some of those in “leadership” roles at fbcrm think we should sweep this under the rug and move on…..take the high road. WE WERE ABANDONED by an entire staff, secretaries, Sunday school teachers, 19 deacons, etc. Sweeping it under the rug is not helping us heal. Talking about it in groups of 3 is not helping us heal. Some of have close friends that left. Rocky Mount is not that big. We run into them all the time. It can be quite awkward. My hope is that some of those who have said, “I don’t want to know,” will begin to have their eyes opened from reading this.


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    Watchman on the wall wrote:

    “Duhhhhh, you must not know me as well as I thought you did. I am bitter and I won’t lie about it. No need to be bitter and a liar.”

    Hello, Watchman. This post (below) is directed toward abused wives. However, it can apply to abused congregants of any gender.

    http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2009/01/word-or-two-from-job-on-bitterness.html

    Burying bitterness under a plastic Christian veneer doesn’t make the bitterness disappear. More likely it will fester and become unmanageable. Bitterness is a process to work through. Dare I say a ‘biblical’ process? (Oh how I hate what the neocals have done to the word ‘biblical’.)

    As you point out, lying about bitterness is no good. It gums up the works, stops the process and diverts people away from the path to wholeness.


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    Yes, those with heads in the sand will hopefully wake up! It’s not fun or easy, but it’s necessary for healing.


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    Alan House wrote:

    Sadly, much of it has to do with how pleasingly a man can preach. If he can REALLY communicate, chances are he will prosper financially and thereby increase his ability to control his situation (church).

    Tickle those itchy ears!


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    Catherine wrote:

    Yes, those with heads in the sand will hopefully wake up! It’s not fun or easy, but it’s necessary for healing.

    “Ignorance is Bliss and I WANT EUPHORIA!”


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    Deb wrote:

    Alan House wrote:

    Deebs, why not get the appropriate leaders at the seminary involved. They could possibly ameliorate some of the damage and/or participate as authority figures with regard to disciplining the rogue pastor.

    Let’s see… Dennis Darville was/is a close colleague of Danny Akin since he worked at SEBTS for over a decade.

    Sorry, but it’s not our responsibility to get the proper authorities involved, especially where there are such close ties between the ‘rogue’ pastor and the institution where he was educated (B.A. and M.Div.) and built a career.

    “One Hand Washes the Other…”


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    Watchman on the wall wrote:

    Exposed so that this won’t happen again to another church and to another group of believers who loved their pastors. History has a crazy way of repeating itself.

    WOTW, thank you for your honesty. I have witnessed similar actions done by “Christian” leaders (not worthy of the title pastor) other places. A few years ago this happened in Durham at Bethesda Baptist Church. The ‘pastor’ failed in his attempt to remodel the church a la 9 Marks and decided that God had called him to plant elsewhere in the RTP area. Coincidentally, several of Bethesda’s bigger givers went with him (funny how that happens with these guys).

    I wish that BBC had fully recovered, but unfortunately, through a series of events, they called a younger guy to pastor. He was youth pastor during the above situation, and, after he completed his studies at SEBTS, he then completed what the other man had started at BBC. (I am not, nor have I ever been, a member at BBC, but I have several friends who were and tried to resist the take-over. All of them are committed, born-again believers who love Jesus.)


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    Deb wrote:

    Congregations need to take a stand up front regarding church polity. Looks like this is what they’re gonna have to do to protect themselves.

    Exactly. A covenant between the church and the pastor, as a stipulation of employment.

    Remember, these guys, for all their “calling” are employees of the congregations they serve. Unless it is specifically written into the church by-laws (as it is in Driscoll’s new plant, The Trinity Church), the non-profit corporation church has members and does not consist of only the pastors and elders.

    More church members need to read the by-laws of their church so that they can be better equipped for handling situations like the one in RM (and I say this as a Calvinist).


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    I find it super interesting that while Southern Baptists have defined SB church polity as congregational in that oft cited Baptist Faith & Message 2000 when defellowshiping churches over the roles of women, as far as I can tell not one church has been defellowshipped for non BF&M 2000 polity. So, to say there is not a single SB consensus on church polity is in short BS.


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    Sopwith wrote:

    Without the tenets of the reformed faith, which is Calvinism, you are not really saved?

    huh?

    “There is no Christ, there is only CALVIN.”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg7MAacSPNM

    For these New Calvinist folks, if you are not sporting Calvinism, you are not really saved. So they believe in what they are doing is bringing 501(c)3 uninitiated church folk the ‘true gospel’. So their ends actually justify their ends.

    The Cause is so Righteous it justifies ANY evil to bring it about.

    Just ask Citizen Robespierre, Comrade Pol Pot, and Shining Path.

    So prepare to be saved in John Calvin ICR style, as their young jack bootz initiates are coming to a church near you…

    Or suffer the fate of Servetus.


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    Watchman on the wall wrote:

    No need to be bitter and a liar

    Ha! Nice response.

    I hate that people are using these kind of bits of advice about anger and bitterness as a club to hit people over the head with or silence them.

    I think there are occasions when bitterness eats at you over time, I know I’ve seen it in my own family, but telling someone not to be bitter is pretty much never going to help!

    And anger is properly part of the grieving process. You SHOULD be angry. What was done was wrong. I wish the best to all of you in healing.


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    Alan House wrote:

    I feel they (SEBTS) will want to dispel the notion that such an attitude exists and that they, in no way, condone what has happened in this instance

    Well, the 9marx guy wrote a how to article about it…IF they don’t want you to know about it it’s only because it makes it easier to sneak in unawares.


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    HickoryNut wrote:

    WE WERE ABANDONED by an entire staff, secretaries, Sunday school teachers, 19 deacons, etc.

    That is awful. I’m so sorry.


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    This is disturbing but this is nothing new. I have personally been in some church two times where people fell to fighting with some backing the pastor and some not. In one case they ran off the pastor. In another case the pastor stayed and so many of the congregation left that they could no longer meet the budget-and then the pastor left.

    There used to be an old saw back in yesteryear that the way baptists start new churches is by way of a church split. I am not making light of this nor am I condoning this process, but I am saying that this fits securely in baptist tradition as to how people do. I used to think that this was a reason to perhaps think twice about an exclusively congregational form of government and whether that was the best way to do. Everything has its strengths and weaknesses. Where there are bishops they can intervene, or so I witnessed in my former Methodist church. Anyhow, it is an interesting thing to think about.


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    @ Burwell

     I am VERY sorry to hear this. 🙁

    When my older daughter moved up to 9th grade at North Raleigh Christian Academy, some of her best friends through high school were from Durham and attended Bethesda Baptist Church. They were fantastic Christian friends. My daughter attended a youth retreat with them one time, and we attended BBC once when the teens shared what they had learned.

    I got to know their parents but have lost track since their HS graduation in 2007. My daughter is in South Africa right now and will be back toward the end of June. I'll see if she can get in touch with them and get their perspective on what happened.


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      __

    “A Calvinist ‘failed’ alien takeover is a ar·du·ous process to work through?”

    hmmm…

    —> Addressing Da Kind First Baptist Church Folks @ Rocky Mount,

    hey,

    …deception, betrayal, abandonment, now toil, sweat, and tears?

    skreeeeeeetch !

      Might wanna roll up your sleeves, choose from among the remainder faithful men as decons, forgo a new pastorial search, save the money, revise your expenditures, maintain your own building with kind folks as volunteers, this will re-build community, don’t forget your pot lucks and breakfasts, hire out the building for local Christian concerts; this will attract new kind folks. For Pete sake don’t play the victim. This religious 501(c)3 monster event could very well turn out to be a ‘blessing’.  ( we see this all the time) Certainly Our Lord will hold you’re little hands.

    Cheer Up 

    All things work together for those who love God, right?

    You bet!

    Now is the time to wittness it!

    ATB  🙂

    Sopy


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    @ Alan House:
    That course plays right into their hands. They have had years to right this shipwreck.

    Akin was promoting Driscoll! Akin has gone along for years.

    Akin wanted in on the goodies. Do you know nothing of Baptist 21? The Akin family ministry dynasty to get church plant dollars? Besides Akin played the “point” card in the past. Didn’t he claim to be a 3 or 4 pointer? I can’t remember. Moore is supposedly a 4 pointer. That game is old and tells us nothing.

    Why do we need to hear from an “authority” when they ARE the problem as “authorities”? We need to Stop giving them that power. It does not bring accountability. They don’t see themselves as responsible in any way.

    The only thing you will hear is that they are sad about the split and know Darville as good man.


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    Deb wrote:

    Alan House wrote:
    I believe that they do not want to be seen as preparing pastors to tear churches apart.

    Deb replied: Of course they don’t; however, it is happening more and more. Dee and I were hoping that at some point our blog wouldn’t be necessary, but the more these situations play out in churches across our land, the more difficult it is for us to cover all the tragic stories – there are just so many.
    Rest assured, we are digging in our heels…

    Just my thought here, but:
    No, they don’t want to tear churches apart. What they want is an absolute and total take-over.

    Alan House wrote:

    Deebs, why not get the appropriate leaders at the seminary involved. They could possibly ameliorate some of the damage and/or participate as authority figures with regard to disciplining the rogue pastor.

    Would involving the “appropriate leaders” just let them know that they need to fine tune their teachings on stealth and deception?


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    Deb wrote:

    Looks like this is what they’re gonna have to do to protect themselves. Have an attorney draft an employment contract that the prospective pastor will not attempt to alter church polity. If he tries, he is in violation of that contract and is promptly dismissed. If a pastor refuses to sign such a contract, then he’s not the right choice for your congregation.

    I think that is the only way to shut this down. Membership covenants are legal contracts so that movement is already known for going that route.


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    Historical facts do not change just because someone is forgiven. I think that truth is often lost in the discussion about “bitterness.” Recounting what happened does not make one bitter. It makes one a good historian.

    How are we to learn from the past if we are afraid to recount it?


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    @ Burwell:
    I have seen the same. The problem is we have very coming out of Seminary who don’t play the game. When your suppliers, that you pay to operate, are the source of the problem…what can one do? It is a huge problem. It’s like turning the Titanic.

    Mohler is the most politically astute strategist around. He missed his true calling. Most SBC up and comers hitched their wagon to his ship. Like Akin. Rainer. Ezell. Moore. And the list is long.


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    Hey Max,

    I was going to share some articles from the Baptist Standard with Kimberly about the making of the BFM 2000 and Mohler insisting on adding the “s” to priesthood of believer… but they are gone! The Dilday article on the BFM2000 is gone, too.

    Guess we linked to them too often to show the trajectory of their tactics. They always were 10 chess moves ahead.

    Screen shots are mandatory when dealing with these guys. Mohler was able to get a secular paper here to remove his glowing assessment of mahaney after Trueman and Ortlund exonerated him. But when Mahaney fled to Louisville, it magically disappeared.


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    Wow. Excellent analysis. The comments from Elizabeth sound eerily similar to some of the responses I and others (including one who is ordained minister and another two who served as elders in their churches) got from a family member who has been deep in the John MacArthur camp for many years when we challenged them on behavior that was clearly, clearly, obviously, glaringly sinful and unethical. I was called restless. I was called bitter. I was told I was greedy and had verses quoted at me. There was an incredible unrepentant resistance to any plain and truthful talk.

    think this is a trait of authoritarian churches. I’d even say it’s one of the ways they are cult-like. Authoritarian leaders produce authoritarian followers. Abuse breeds abuse. If a leader is convinced they have a corner on God’s special truth, or the only right doctrine or whatever, and sends demeaning signals about anyone who disagrees with them, their followers will be the same way. That can lead to astonishing abusiveness.


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    I have not been one to buy into conspiracy theories very easily.. However, when you keep seeing a “playbook” used over and over again, as has been well documented here on WW, one has to really start to wonder…

    P.S. Accepting a “calling” from a 130 year old church, and then move rapidly to change the church polity to solidify power is not “little thing”……


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    Lydia wrote:

    Mohler was able to get a secular paper here to remove his glowing assessment of mahaney after Trueman and Ortlund exonerated him.

    We preserved some of Al Mohler's commentary in that secular newspaper in this post. Here is a portion of what Mohler told Louisville's rag The Courier Journal:

    “I always have had only the highest estimation of C.J. Mahaney as a man and a minister,” Mohler said in an interview — his first public comments on the situation involving Mahaney, one of his fellow leaders in the Reformed, neo-Calvinist movement. “That continues absolutely unchanged. There is nothing in this current situation which would leave me to have even the slightest pause of confidence in him.”

    “There is nothing disqualifying in terms of anything that is disclosed in this,” said Mohler, who regularly speaks on programs along with Mahaney. “It’s just evidence we knew all along, that C.J. is human but a deeply committed Christian and a visionary Christian leader.”


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    Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    Accepting a “calling” from a 130 year old church, and then move rapidly to change the church polity to solidify power is not “little thing”……

    Exactly right! That's why we are devoting so much time to telling this tragic story. More to follow tomorrow… Then we'll wrap it up on Friday, so stay tuned!

    I'm fighting MAD over this one!!!


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    Deb wrote:

    Congregations need to take a stand up front regarding church polity. Looks like this is what they’re gonna have to do to protect themselves. Have an attorney draft an employment contract that the prospective pastor will not attempt to alter church polity. If he tries, he is in violation of that contract and is promptly dismissed. If a pastor refuses to sign such a contract, then he’s not the right choice for your congregation.

    Yes, absolutely.

    And that contract should include a non-compete clause that would disallow the ability for the disappointed-that-he-didn’t-get-his-way pastor from establishing another assembly within, say, 60 miles.

    Also, the contract should insist that the leaders would not be permitted to discuss from the pulpit/podium any negative responses they may feel afterward regarding votes that went against the leadership’s pursuit of changing the existing church.


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    When a pastor has to meet at Milton & Miles to keep his anger in check, and to keep himself from throwing chairs then there is a problem. Several congregants have been at the receiving end of his rage – one threatened to call the police but was convinced to not call them. I would encourage other members of FBCRM to start talking and keep talking.


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    Anonymous Insider wrote:

    When a pastor has to meet at Milton & Miles to keep his anger in check, and to keep himself from throwing chairs then there is a problem.

    Yeah.

    I don’t care if you are incredibly gifted in teaching, speaking, education, and knowledge.

    I don’t care if you can miraculously heal someone from 100 paces, angels sing softly behind you whenever you speak, and clouds of gold glitter follow swirlingly behind your every move –

    if you lack self-control, you should have no place in leadership.


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    Anonymous Insider wrote:

    When a pastor has to meet at Milton & Miles to keep his anger in check, and to keep himself from throwing chairs then there is a problem. Several congregants have been at the receiving end of his rage

    At this point, one can genuinely begin to question the validity of said pastor’s “call to ministry.” And pray for his family.


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    Lea wrote:

    I hate that people are using these kind of bits of advice about anger and bitterness as a club to hit people over the head with or silence them.

    If a Christian community is decimated by the process being described, I would think a part of the healing process would be to want to alert other Christian communities in the area about what happened so that these other communities could be more pro-active in guarding themselves from harm. It does look like there is a great need to sound the alarm (as the Deebs are doing) but then Churches who are vulnerable do have an obligation, having been alerted to the possibility of harm, to do what is good and right to protect their people from going through a sad and painful experience.
    The Deebs are alerting people to a pattern of destruction that works when a Church is unaware of possible danger. What an informed Church then does, knowing what has happened to other unsuspecting faith communities, might prevent a similar fate with all of its pain and sadness.

    Human nature, being what it is, does require people to take responsibility to do what is right to protect innocent people, whether these innocents be the faith community’s children in need of shielding from abusive predators, or unaware adults who are child-like in their trusting and therefore vulnerable to sheep stealing.
    Being protective actively is not the same thing as isolationism, it’s just using common sense when, having become aware of predatory practices and pattersn, reacting with responsible and careful precautions. This would be ethical and Christian, and would discourage a newly-minted neo-Cal minister from falling into the sin of doing evil in order to do ‘good’ for a faith community that has offered him a home.

    Sometimes, as we say in my Church, we ‘have sinned by what we have failed to do’. And the consequences of not taking action have led to harm and pain. Taking action responsibly IS a Christian act of mercy. It is in accordance with the teachings of the faith. It is a good thing to protect the innocent pro-actively.


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    Burwell wrote:

    When a pastor has to meet at Milton & Miles to keep his anger in check, and to keep himself from throwing chairs

    What kills me is the continued commitment from denominational (or whatever the SBC actually is) leaders who will stand behind men with rage issues, or who protect child molesters, have extra marital affairs, etc., without batting an eye. This type of anger is such a clear violation of what Paul wrote about elders in 1 Timothy 3:2-3

    Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

    (Emphasis mine)


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    Whether unwittingly or not, Elizabeth was engaging in propaganda. A former interest in politics taught me that propagandists are unfortunately all too effective. They don’t change anyone’s mind, they just throw out a kernel of doubt for someone to hang onto so they don’t have to re-assess. Thus if someone new reading here begins to drift off the plantation and starts to question, “hey a pastor dividing a church isn’t right”, they will instead be diverted back with people here don’t have all the facts, we are just bitter, it isn’t that big a deal, etc.

    I noticed early that Elizabeth did not engage with those who questioned the basic premise that dividing this church should be okay. She responded to a few commenters, sometimes betraying a marked superiority in doing so, but she didn’t grapple with legitimate tough questions.

    I wonder about the motivations. Do they think we will fall like a house of cards, “yeah you’re right, it is okay to tear apart so many relationships to divide a church”, or is it calculated propaganda designed only to impugn commenters and divert attention from their dear leader.

    There have been other occasional posters that drop in to set us straight and betray a similar sense of superiority over us rubes. One even dropping in on the Darville thread to tell Ken he was “Wrong.”. This same someone first dropped in almost a year ago to set us straight about Tony Jones so there can be no discernible ideology other than maybe us pawns have no business discussing the actions of “pastors”.


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    Burwell wrote:

    At this point, one can genuinely begin to question the validity of said pastor’s “call to ministry.”

    You should always question the self proclaimed “call to ministry”.


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    Burwell wrote:

    Burwell wrote:
    When a pastor has to meet at Milton & Miles to keep his anger in check, and to keep himself from throwing chairs

    What kills me is the continued commitment from denominational (or whatever the SBC actually is) leaders who will stand behind men with rage issues, or who protect child molesters, have extra marital affairs, etc., without batting an eye. This type of anger is such a clear violation of what Paul wrote about elders in 1 Timothy 3:2-3

    Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

    (Emphasis mine)

    Oh come on. Everybody knows the only important thing there was excluding women from office (even if they are mentioned later as ‘elder’ women teaching younger women)!

    All that other stuff was just talk.


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    Bill M wrote:

    They don’t change anyone’s mind, they just throw out a kernel of doubt for someone to hang onto so they don’t have to re-assess.

    This is so true. All the average person wants is an excuse not to get involved or have to think and even a lame excuse works.

    There really ought to be a list of logical fallacies devoted to how they are used in the church. It’s so predictable, always follows a set pattern. For example, the false dichotomy: you either quietly agree with leadership or you are making them out to be monsters. No, there is a third option: speaking the truth with love. We know which one the Bible advocates.

    It is sad how the Christian’s devotion to being Christlike gets used against them. They know that we will go to great lengths to be fair, to be kind, to avoid gossip, to repay evil with good, etc. These qualities are clearly used and taken advantage of.


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    Burwell wrote:

    Burwell wrote:
    When a pastor has to meet at Milton & Miles to keep his anger in check, and to keep himself from throwing chairs
    What kills me is the continued commitment from denominational (or whatever the SBC actually is) leaders who will stand behind men with rage issues, or who protect child molesters, have extra marital affairs, etc., without batting an eye. This type of anger is such a clear violation of what Paul wrote about elders in 1 Timothy 3:2-3
    Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
    (Emphasis mine)

    In my 29 years as a faculty member at a major, SECULAR, University, I have been to many heated/contentious faculty meetings, some over important issues (such as the future of departments). I have NEVER seen it degrade to people “throwing chairs!”


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    How annoying! “Elizabeth” is using my first name to post his/her arguments in favor of the unscrupulous pastor who took over FBCRM. I guess nobody taught Dennis Darville that he was supposed to kick out the elderly members of the congregation before attempting the switch to an elder-led form of government? That happened to my parents twice before they quit going to church.

    “Elizabeth” I don’t know if you are a man or a woman, but you sound manipulative and dishonest to me.


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    I was waiting for Elizabeth to tell us that we were gossiping and that she was just speaking the truth in love. How many times have phrases like “gossiping” and “speaking truth in love” been used to do great harm?


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    I was waiting for Elizabeth to tell us that we were gossiping and that she was just speaking the truth in love. How many times have phrases like “gossiping” and “speaking truth in love” been used to do great harm?

    Don’t forget “hardened heart(TM)” and “bitterness(TM)”. Both Thee, Not ME.


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    siteseer wrote:

    It is sad how the Christian’s devotion to being Christlike gets used against them.

    “There’s a sucker born every minute!”
    — P.T.Barnum


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    BL wrote:

    I don’t care if you can miraculously heal someone from 100 paces, angels sing softly behind you whenever you speak, and clouds of gold glitter follow swirlingly behind your every move –

    You’ve been watching TBN, haven’t you?


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    Bill M wrote:

    You should always question the self proclaimed “call to ministry”.

    Sorry for the quick quip, I should have said WE should always question the self proclaimed “call to ministry”. I meant not correct but to remind my self that even I am too trusting and should not neglect the spiritual gift of skepticism.


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    I was waiting for Elizabeth to tell us that we were gossiping and that she was just speaking the truth in love. How many times have phrases like “gossiping” and “speaking truth in love”
    been used to do great harm?

    And “pot-stirring”


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    Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    I have NEVER seen it degrade to people “throwing chairs!”

    Yes. I think most places that would be considered a HUGE problem! I did have a boss who threw books at the wall once, though.


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    DustInTheWind wrote:

    And “pot-stirring”

    What exactly is wrong with stirring a pot, btw? That is how you make soup or any number of other yummy things…


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    siteseer wrote:

    All the average person wants is an excuse not to get involved or have to think and even a lame excuse works.

    We are all pretty pathetic, I’ve seen the response in myself and everyone from a PhD to those with a 6th grade education, Democrat to Republican, atheist to true believer.


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    @ Anonymous Insider:
    Whoa! Usually you get the covert knife in the back while simultaneously expressing “care for your soul” to the other pew peons. This was the perfect opportunity to make it about attempted assault. This is a person who needs help and is dangerous.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    You’ve been watching TBN, haven’t you?

    Hee hee! Could you tell? 🙂

    No, but I do confess to occasionally viewing the various whackadoodles in all their splendor on youtube.

    Those same whackadoodles that continue writing and selling books, cross pollinating with their fellow churchianity celebs producing a myriad of apostles and apostolic thingamabobs, issuing their decrees, scheduling their conferences – and all making a very good living on the backs of the naive, the desperate, the needy, the greedy and the gullible.


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    @ Lydia:
    Thanks for reminding me of that, Lydia. I was SB until a few years ago – PK, MK. I live in KY where is setting up his supreme bishopry of the SBC. I keep up with about 85% of what is going on. Between that addition, the elevation of Scripture above Christ, and the current Eternal Subordination of the Son, I have plenty to add to the gender issues.

    PS I have enjoyed your comments other places as well


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    @ Deb:

    Brava! Throughout these long litanies of abuses in the SBC, this is by far the best practical and common sense suggestion I’ve heard here at TWW.
    An iron clad way to inform any would be pastor that you work for us, we don’t work for you. Again, brava!


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    A TWW Tutorial:
    This is excellent.
    How about a tutorial or a youtube video (like the one about how the Sunday morning worship now rolls… – looking for that link that someone shared recently on TWW) – on the bait-and-switch of new leadership?

    A mega was built over 35 years by the guy who now runs the NAE. The new guy waited about a year and then began to disassemble the multi-generational aspects, the staff, the paid-for facility, worship teams, etc. With multiple areas for worship of many different styles, covered up the windows in the traditional sanctuary. Basically tried to change it to a black box. Perhaps mothball the donated European million dollar organ, when there is already a black box on site in another multi-use area.

    Some core givers of that white-haired generation left.


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    @ Deb:
    Brilliant. A church prenup.


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Anonymous Insider:
    Whoa! Usually you get the covert knife in the back while simultaneously expressing “care for your soul” to the other pew peons.

    Yeah. At least getting a chair bounced off your skull is up front and direct.


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    DustInTheWind wrote:

    Patriciamc wrote:

    I was waiting for Elizabeth to tell us that we were gossiping and that she was just speaking the truth in love. How many times have phrases like “gossiping” and “speaking truth in love”
    been used to do great harm?

    And “pot-stirring”

    And “divisive” don’t forget that one. A divisive spirit


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    From the OP:

    I can tell you have been hurt by this and trust me I am so sad for you.

    Translation: You are *damaged*. And as a result of this damage, anything you say can automatically be discounted.

    (This manipulative maneuver is used against victims of all categories – physical abuse, sexual abuse, domestic abuse, spiritual abuse, etc.)

    I think this whole this is horrible.

    Have my crocodile tears smeared my mascara?

    I actually do know what has gone on

    And *you all* actually don’t!

    and do know facts but I won’t tell you exactly how.

    I’m so inside that I *know* the facts – *you* do not. But, you’re just gonna have to take my word for it. Oh, by the way, did I make it clear that I do not attend either church therefore I am unbiased?

    (Unlike you guys.)

    I know that there have been many injustices and wrongs on both sides

    From my secluded perch, up in my catsbird seat, and with my extensive knowledge of the facts – I make the following pronouncement:

    Everyone was guilty!

    And since everyone was guilty, there can be no assigning of responsibility, or corrections of errors.

    So, we’re done here, right?

    and I hate that there have even been sides

    It would have been so much better if everyone would have just submitted and obeyed! Then we wouldn’t have this pesky little problem of having *sides*.

    I mean, with TWO SIDES people might begin to wonder if it wasn’t just a matter of *sides* but rather was a matter of right and wrong! Can’t have that now, can we?

    Bank robber – Bank: I hate that there are two sides!

    Child abuser – Child: I hate that there are two sides!

    Adulterous spouse – Spouse: I hate that there are two sides!

    Yeah, not so much.


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    Bill M wrote:

    You should always question the self proclaimed “call to ministry”.

    Absolutely.


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    JYJames wrote:

    A church prenup.

    It certainly is. Nothing wrong with gently, firmly saying up front: ‘no, not here’ to a young neo-Cal pastor coming aboard … it is a great kindness to guide and guard the young man away from performing that which brings harm. It is a great mercy to help the young pastor stay away from the temptation of doing evil so that, in his mind, ‘good may come’.

    It’s more than a pre-nup. It’s the preliminary shepherding of the young shepherd with a compassionate firmness, not at all separated from the duty of a congregation to support him by keeping him shielded from a temptation to do evil.

    In this way, the congregation may undo some of the damage of any training or influences that have led young pastors into the destructive sin of breaking faith communities apart, with all the pain that comes from a corrupt neo-Cal morality that preaches the sin of division in order to gain power and control.
    That’s the beautiful grace of the Christian faith in action: it isn’t destructive to those it touches. It overs an opportunity for a win-win for EVERYONE involved within its care. And the fruit is good. 🙂


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    John wrote:

    think this is a trait of authoritarian churches. I’d even say it’s one of the ways they are cult-like. Authoritarian leaders produce authoritarian followers. Abuse breeds abuse. If a leader is convinced they have a corner on God’s special truth, or the only right doctrine or whatever, and sends demeaning signals about anyone who disagrees with them, their followers will be the same way. That can lead to astonishing abusiveness.

    John, it’s not just churches. It’s corporations, too. They don’t fling verses at you, but they fling “team-talk” at you: You’re undermining the team; you’re not a true team player; blahdeblahdeblah.

    A friend and I were just recently observing that all the good bosses (caring, people-oriented) seem to get pushed out of upper management. Only the narcissistic bullies survive. The bullies are in control, and the the result is abusive, toxic corporate culture. And it just seems to be getting worse.

    I don’t know whether these churches are borrowing from corporate culture — or whether people are just getting meaner across the board. But boy, it sure does seem as if true compassion (as opposed to PR window-dressing) is becoming rarer than hen’s teeth.

    I believe it was Martin Marty who said that the great religious divide of our day is not between left and right but between mean and non-mean. That seems to be true across the board — in secular society, too.


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    BL wrote:

    And that contract should include a non-compete clause that would disallow the ability for the disappointed-that-he-didn’t-get-his-way pastor from establishing another assembly within, say, 60 miles.

    Absolutely! When my Maltese was a puppy, I took her to a highly recommended vet in Wake Forest. Several years ago he sold his practice to a younger vet (can't blame him – no doubt it was a good business deal for him). He set up a brand new practice right off Hwy 1 in Kittrell. Why did he have to go that far away? Because of the non-compete clause in their business contract. It was a fair deal for everyone. I'm willing to drive a little farther once a year for my dog's check-up because he's such a wonderful vet.

    Churches definitely need to become more savvy. 😉


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    Deb wrote:

    Let’s see… Dennis Darville was/is a close colleague of Danny Akin since he worked at SEBTS for over a decade.
    Sorry, but it’s not our responsibility to get the proper authorities involved, especially where there are such close ties between the ‘rogue’ pastor and the institution where he was educated (B.A. and M.Div.) and built a career.

    I see your point. Wasn’t trying to delineate your responsibility. Appreciate your reporting so that others can see what is going on. This whole incident speaks volumes about Darville’s attitude toward people under his care. I imagine that many of the folks who followed him in his abrupt departure are going to dislike the final product.


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Alan House:
    That course plays right into their hands. They have had years to right this shipwreck.
    Akin was promoting Driscoll! Akin has gone along for years.
    Akin wanted in on the goodies. Do you know nothing of Baptist 21? The Akin family ministry dynasty to get church plant dollars? Besides Akin played the “point” card in the past. Didn’t he claim to be a 3 or 4 pointer? I can’t remember. Moore is supposedly a 4 pointer. That game is old and tells us nothing.
    Why do we need to hear from an “authority” when they ARE the problem as “authorities”? We need to Stop giving them that power. It does not bring accountability. They don’t see themselves as responsible in any way.
    The only thing you will hear is that they are sad about the split and know Darville as good man.

    Your point is well taken. You know much more background here than I do.


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    @ Alan House wrote:

    I imagine that many of the folks who followed him in his abrupt departure are going to dislike the final product.

    "You can fool all the people some of the time,

    and some of the people all the time,

    but you cannot fool all the people all the time."

    Abraham Lincoln


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    The Neo-Cals aren’t just interested in taking over churches. My suspicion that is gaining more traction is that Mohler wants to take over the world as it were and make himself Protestant Pope of the Evangelicals.

    If I were a member church of the National Association of Evangelicals, I would be bracing for the worst. Southern Baptists have stated they are going to study seeking membership.

    If it goes like the whole SBC Baptist World Alliance showdown it will be damaging. When the BWA refused to be taken over by the SBC, all of a sudden the BWA was smeared with not being Biblical in their beliefs, liberal and a lot of other dog whistle words. It was touch and go if the BWA would survive for awhile.

    Money and power by any means necessary is the name of the game.

    PS – I’m not bitter, just gifted with insight, discernment, and a highly calibrated BS detector.


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    Bill M wrote:

    You should always question the self proclaimed “call to ministry”.

    You are 100 percent correct. Any “self-proclaimed call” is dubious by itself. It needs to be supported, and probably initiated, by the body of Christ. Paul says that whoever “aspires to the office of [pastor]… desires a good thing. However, that is immediately tempered by behavioral qualifications. And, according to Jesus, one’s behavior is always a reflection of one’s heart. Thus, Paul is talking both about how that person is to act as well as how they are to be.

    To quote the motto of NC (which, ironically, is where both Rocky Mount and Southeastern Seminary are located), Esse quam videri, most often translated as “To be, rather than to seem”, which is also a good motto for any practicing Christian.


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    Deb wrote:

    He set up a brand new practice right off Hwy 1 in Kittrell. Why did he have to go that far away? Because of the non-compete clause in their business contract. It was a fair deal for everyone. I’m willing to drive a little farther once a year for my dog’s check-up because he’s such a wonderful vet.

    He has been recommended to us for our dogs, too. I am glad to hear he is worth the drive!


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    Quoting from the OP

    I’d just love to know how you know their heart motives to “take over a church” I guess, since a couple of these men worked for 15+ years at or below the poverty line as pastors at FBCRM.

    I guess the above OP assertion doesn’t fall under the OP’s standard of:

    The rumors and lies that the members of FBCRM have circulated have hurt a lot of people

    So, telling us that the church members s^cked so much that they kept these pastors at or below poverty level FOR 15 YEARS doesn’t come under the “rumors and lies” being circulated that could hurt a lot of people?

    (Although the above does out Elizabeth as someone closely associated with one of those ‘couple of men’ so desperately mistreated & purposely impoverished by the church members for 15 years.)

    And, if what she said was true regarding the financial provision for leaders, then the church members who flew the coop with Dennis, are from the very same membership who mistreated and impoverished them before.

    So, in this case, Elizabeth makes ALL the members (both current and former) look bad, while glorifying those poor, mistreated couple of men in leadership who slaved away for 15 years, and what thanks did they get? Why, no thanks at all!

    They were formerly given the equivalent of dry bread and stale water by this miscreant membership.

    But now! Now! Things will be different!

    These couple of leaders leaving to establish a bright, new church, trailed by members (did we mention they still tithe like usual and we won’t have to take a pay cut?) who were part and parcel of the miscreant membership that had formerly kept them in poverty…

    Oh, wait.

    The 300 hundred, still-tithing former members who have joined in your new churchy endeavor are from the SAME people who treated their leadership so poorly?

    I’m thinking that Elizabeth’s couple of leaders will need to fly Robert Morris in real soon to get the membership in shape for the upcoming financial needs of said couple of leaders.

    .


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    Kimberly Rock-Shelton wrote:

    The Neo-Cals aren’t just interested in taking over churches. My suspicion that is gaining more traction is that Mohler wants to take over the world as it were and make himself Protestant Pope of the Evangelicals.

    There are multiple streams of churchianity who want to, and are working to, establish their version of God’s Kingdom on earth.

    Dominionism in different flavors is still dominionism. And the end result of all the different flavors are exactly the same – self-exalting men claiming authority and ruling over the peons –

    In the name of God, of course.


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    Alan House wrote:

    I imagine that many of the folks who followed him in his abrupt departure are going to dislike the final product.

    They will be at the stage of “too much invested to quit now” for a long time before they realize that abuse of power is never sated.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    @ Deb:

    Brava! Throughout these long litanies of abuses in the SBC, this is by far the best practical and common sense suggestion I’ve heard here at TWW.
    An iron clad way to inform any would be pastor that you work for us, we don’t work for you. Again, brava!

    Thank you, thank you very much!  But I can’t really take the credit — it was my wonderful hubby’s recommendation.

    He’s the one who prompted us to go with this story NOW! I am very blessed to have his support. :-)


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    Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    A friend and I were just recently observing that all the good bosses (caring, people-oriented) seem to get pushed out of upper management.

    This is true in general. I have been in organizational development as a career in and out of hundreds of organizations from the biggies to non profits and have witnessed this trajectory evolve over many years.

    Our culture is becoming top down authoritarian. However, there are laws protecting you at work (if you are willing to go that route) but not at church. Church is social and voluntary. The worst evil is that done in the Name of God.


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    siteseer wrote:

    They will be at the stage of “too much invested to quit now” for a long time before they realize that abuse of power is never sated.

    Good insight!


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    Deb wrote:

    Congregations need to take a stand up front regarding church polity. Looks like this is what they’re gonna have to do to protect themselves. Have an attorney draft an employment contract that the prospective pastor will not attempt to alter church polity. If he tries, he is in violation of that contract and is promptly dismissed. If a pastor refuses to sign such a contract, then he’s not the right choice for your congregation.

    The search for “measuring what matters” in terms of church health is often a search for “barometer indicators” that would point at a severe change in the congregation’s spiritual environment. This is a great example of such an indicator. It should work where a prospective employee is authoritarian, regardless of whether that person would be expecting to shift the church’s doctrinal stance or not. A no-change polity policy may be the pinch point for preventing hostile takeovers of the church’s spiritual and financial assets.


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    Alan House wrote:

    Your point is well taken. You know much more background here than I do.

    From the seeker megas 20 years ago to the Neo Cals today, we are told to “believe the best” or “trust the positive intentions of the leaders “.

    And people want to do that. But long-term patterns of behavior and words that don’t match behavior, taken all together, means we must question everything now. They have not earned our trust to believe anything they say.


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    No full time pastor at FBCRM lived at or below poverty level – not even close. If we are talking about interns, that’s a different story. Several people were in paid positions outside the pastoral staff.


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    Deb wrote:

    Why did he have to go that far away? Because of the non-compete clause in their business contract. It was a fair deal for everyone.

    I think the idea of contracts stating boundaries for potential leaders is an excellent one.

    Church members are behind the times on this one. Leadership has been lugging in and incorporating the ways and wiles of *business* for some time now into churches.

    How many times have we seen pastors compared favorably to CEOs? So far, it’s been a one-way street, their way.

    These leadership contracts should also include that leaders who are brought to discipline are contractually required to remain at the church and undergo the same disciplinary processes they established for others. With the addition that the church membership can release the leader from this requirement if they deem this best for the church.

    Yep, totally agree with you and (ed.) churches need to get over the fear that something like this is too worldly or unspiritual.

    The idea is great – what needs to be included for consideration are ways or processes to disseminate this concept (once fleshed out) out to the church pewishioners.


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    BL wrote:

    Yep, totally agree with you that churches need to get over the fear that something like this is too worldly or unspiritual.

    This should have been:

    Yep, totally agree with you AND churches need to get over the fear that something like this is too worldly or unspiritual.

    Didn’t mean to inadvertently attribute the above (about churches need to get…) to you.


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    Deb wrote:

    Alan House wrote:
    I believe that they do not want to be seen as preparing pastors to tear churches apart.
    Of course they don’t; however, it is happening more and more. Dee and I were hoping that at some point our blog wouldn’t be necessary, but the more these situations play out in churches across our land, the more difficult it is for us to cover all the tragic stories – there are just so many.
    Rest assured, we are digging in our heels…

    Well, when you consider that an entire denomination that began as Mennonite and now has been taken over by Reformed (Calvinist) soteriology, it’s not hard to believe what these Neo-Cal pastors are doing in Southern Baptist churches. How does an entire denomination that had Mennonite/Anabaptist roots get taken over by Calvinists? If they could do it with the Bible Fellowship denomination, they could do it with ANY evangelical church. That means Assemblies of God, Nazarene, Wesleyan, Christian Missionary Alliance, Holiness, even your typical non-denominational church. Here is a Wiki article on the Bible Fellowship denomination that began in Pennsylvania.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_Fellowship_Church


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    Going forward, perhaps an appropriate response to “Elizabeths” who claim to have certain facts (but won’t reveal them), and who have no blog of their own (and so cannot more directly be held responsible for incomplete statements or misstatements), and who engage in evident spin-doctoring, would be:

    “Thank you for sharing that you have personal, behind-the-scenes knowledge. I/We will be glad to recommend you as a witness, should these matters become a matter of legal action.”

    While this warning may come across as merely a scare tactic, if there is potential for a lawsuit then it’s a sober reminder that what is stated publicly could be seen as evidence. However, I may be totally off in my understanding, and perhaps some of the lawyers who are readers could suggest whether this is a reasonable response, or is flawed and we shouldn’t use it. I was thinking mostly in light of things I’d read about people who make statements along the lines of, “If you only knew what I did, you’d change your opinion …” and how that relates to potential defamation suits.


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    @ Darlene:
    Wow. What is the draw, I wonder?


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    Here’s another thing. I’ve been interacting with Calvinists on blogs and Facebook sites for almost a decade now. Plus I had to interact with them when our son converted to Calvinism back before the YRR Movement took hold. In my encounters with Calvinists, I have heard the mantra: “I’ve recently been convinced of the Doctrines of Grace and have been trying to convince members in my congregation of the truths of the Reformed faith. However, they don’t seem interested in wanting to learn the truth.” They then go on to ask other Calvinist’s opinion of what they can do to change the hearts and minds of the people so they’ll be converted to the “Doctrines of Grace.” THIS IS THEIR M.O. FOLKS. They see NOTHING wrong with bringing about division and dissension within a church body. In fact, when division occurs because of them preaching Reformed soteriology, they believe they are being persecuted for the truth.

    This is worth being repeated, but why not just leave and go be with those folks who have already established a church that believes in Calvinism? Back in the day while attending an Evangelical church, I arrived at a place where I could no longer affirm certain teachings being preached from the pulpit. My husband and I would leave with inner turmoil after one of these kind of sermons would be preached. Finally, when we could no longer justify attending there, WE LEFT. What we didn’t do was attempt to cause division within that church body by trying to convince them they were wrong. This is what Christians of good will do. They don’t attempt a covert take-over.


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Darlene:
    Wow. What is the draw, I wonder?

    The Lure of the Inner Ring, being One of the Inner Circle of The Movement That Will Change The World. (Illuminati…)
    The thrill of putting one over on all those stupid sheeple.
    Triumph over the Enemies of The Righteous Cause.
    Occult Gnosis (Speshul Sekrit Knowledge) known only to the Chosen Elect. (Illuminati…)
    And of course, Money and POWER.


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Darlene:
    Wow. What is the draw, I wonder?

    I think the draw is a smug attitude that we have the truth and therefore whatever we do justifies our actions in order that the truth wins. I have heard Calvinists (folks that I know personally) bemoan the fact that a church they’re attending does not teach the Doctrines of Grace. Ok…..then GO TO A CHURCH WHERE THEY DO. Problem solved.


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    Darlene wrote:

    They then go on to ask other Calvinist’s opinion of what they can do to change the hearts and minds of the people so they’ll be converted to the “Doctrines of Grace.” THIS IS THEIR M.O. FOLKS. They see NOTHING wrong with bringing about division and dissension within a church body. In fact, when division occurs because of them preaching Reformed soteriology, they believe they are being persecuted for the truth.

    Like Citizen Robespierre’s Society of Perfect Virtue or Comrade Pol Pot’s Perfect Communistic Agrarian Cambodia, the Cause is so Righteous as to justify any evil whatsoever to bring it about. “FOR THE CAUSE!”


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    Darlene wrote:

    Well, when you consider that an entire denomination that began as Mennonite and now has been taken over by Reformed (Calvinist) soteriology

    Just like large chunks of Islam are being taken over by the Wahabi/Jihadi way.
    (Including stripping and whitewashing mosques just as Calvin did the churches of Geneva. Non-Arab Muslims refer to them as “The Arabizers”.)

    But the Wahabi are able to do it because of all that Saudi oil money giving them effectively unlimited funds to throw into The Cause. What’s backing these guys?


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    @ Burwell:

    AMEN!


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    Darlene wrote:

    Ok…..then GO TO A CHURCH WHERE THEY DO.

    Seriously!!! Or just create your own church 0’calvin and be done with it. Stop messing with everybody else who doesn’t want you.


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    Darlene wrote:

    THIS IS THEIR M.O. FOLKS. They see NOTHING wrong with bringing about division and dissension within a church body. In fact, when division occurs because of them preaching Reformed soteriology, they believe they are being persecuted for the truth.

    Well stated.


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Darlene:
    Wow. What is the draw, I wonder?

    Was leafing through the latest issue of Time over lunch and came across something that expresses the draw for the Big Dogs and Wannabe Big Dogs with less words and more impact than my previous comment above. Don’t know if it’ll get past the mods, but…

    The main character’s tattoo on the Lifetime Original series UnREAL:
    MONEY. **** (ed.). POWER.


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    @ brad/futuristguy:
    Darn good comment!


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    Anonymous Insider wrote:

    If we are talking about interns, that’s a different story. Several people were in paid positions outside the pastoral staff.

    That makes perfect sense. I think seminary graduates today think they should be making 6 figures as they lead churches to split.


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    BL wrote:

    Oh, wait.
    The 300 hundred, still-tithing former members who have joined in your new churchy endeavor are from the SAME people who treated their leadership so poorly?

    ROFL!!!!!!


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    Darlene wrote:

    I have heard Calvinists (folks that I know personally) bemoan the fact that a church they’re attending does not teach the Doctrines of Grace. Ok…..then GO TO A CHURCH WHERE THEY DO. Problem solved.

    You’re telling a virus to go to another, already-infected cell?

    (Virii take over uninfected virgin cells and hijack the cellular reproductive to do nothing except turn out copies of the virus; sometime during this process, the cell dies and ruptures, releasing all the copied virii to infect new cells.)


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    dee wrote:

    That makes perfect sense. I think seminary graduates today think they should be making 6 figures as they lead churches to split.

    Make that 6+ figures and a juiced best-seller book deal the first day out of seminary.


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    Kimberly Rock-Shelton wrote:

    PS – I’m not bitter, just gifted with insight, discernment, and a highly calibrated BS detector.

    Great comment along with a great laugh for me when I needed one.


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    Lea wrote:

    Alan House wrote:
    I feel they (SEBTS) will want to dispel the notion that such an attitude exists and that they, in no way, condone what has happened in this instance
    Well, the 9marx guy wrote a how to article about it…IF they don’t want you to know about it it’s only because it makes it easier to sneak in unawares.

    I read that 9Marx article about how to “reform” a church. Classic Calvinist Christianese. “Reform” in their paradigm means subdue and indoctrinate with Calvinist tenets. All those who resist must be flushed out and exposed as dissenters.


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    @ Kimberly Rock-Shelton:
    We are both Kentuckians. I live a ground zero and can’t swing a dead cat without hitting a YRR. :o)

    It is unrecognizable from the SBC I grew up in.


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    I need to talk with you about your soon to presence in this area. I am wondering if we can meet halfway or something depending on how things go. I’ll talk with David.


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    Elizabeth Lee wrote:

    . I guess nobody taught Dennis Darville that he was supposed to kick out the elderly members of the congregation before attempting the switch to an elder-led form of government? That happened to my parents twice before they quit going to church.
    “Elizabeth” I don’t know if you are a man or a woman, but you sound manipulative and dishonest to me.

    Well said. You have redeemed the name Elizabeth


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    Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    In my 29 years as a faculty member at a major, SECULAR, University, I have been to many heated/contentious faculty meetings, some over important issues (such as the future of departments). I have NEVER seen it degrade to people “throwing chairs!”

    These pastors have quick tempers. My husband and I met one in Panera who decided to try to convince us of the reality of Young Earth Creationism. When we presented our disagreement he slammed his head down on the table and covered it with his arms. People turned and looked all over the restaurant. I told Deb when it happened.


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    Anonymous Insider wrote:

    When a pastor has to meet at Milton & Miles to keep his anger in check, and to keep himself from throwing chairs then there is a problem.

    Deb called me about your comment. It will go well in her revealing post tomorrow.


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    okrapod wrote:

    This is disturbing but this is nothing new. I have personally been in some church two times where people fell to fighting with some backing the pastor and some not. In one case they ran off the pastor. In another case the pastor stayed and so many of the congregation left that they could no longer meet the budget-and then the pastor left.
    There used to be an old saw back in yesteryear that the way baptists start new churches is by way of a church split. I am not making light of this nor am I condoning this process, but I am saying that this fits securely in baptist tradition as to how people do. I used to think that this was a reason to perhaps think twice about an exclusively congregational form of government and whether that was the best way to do. Everything has its strengths and weaknesses. Where there are bishops they can intervene, or so I witnessed in my former Methodist church. Anyhow, it is an interesting thing to think about.

    I hear what you are saying, Okrapod. One of the reasons that drew me to Eastern Orthodoxy is the possibility of a church split occurring was highly unlikely. I think the reason this is the case has to do with a deeply ingrained mindset that schism is regarded as egregious and something that should be avoided if at all possible.


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    @ BL: Fixed it. 🙂


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    Lea wrote:

    Stop messing with everybody else who doesn’t want you.

    Symbolically, it's like a guy forcing himself on a gal who isn't the least bit interested in marrying him! After the marriage license is signed, she is stuck with him FOR LIFE!

    That's what non-Calvinist congregations feel like when taken over by a Neo-Cal pastor.  Yuck!


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    And speaking engagements at conferences around the country (and world)!


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    There are more than a few Kentuckians here. So there is still hope for the Commonwealth.

    We should all meet up and have breakfast some Sunday, maybe in Louisville, then “attend church” together at some small church plant, like the one at the Marriott off Hurstborne.

    I’m joking, of course.


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    Gudbrand wrote:

    This blog was written well over a week ago by one of the teens at FBCRM. The hurt and scarring is deep and affects all ages.

    https://www.theodysseyonline.com/didnt-fit-in-at-youth-group

    Poor girl. And people wonder why the young are leaving the Church? That ‘youth group’ she attended sounds a bit like that film ‘Jesus Camp’ which made my blood run cold.


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    @ Gudbrand:

    I just commented under that blog post. Thanks for bringing it to our attention!


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    Deb wrote:

    @ BL: Fixed it. 🙂

    Thanks! Sometimes there is a time/space continuum disconnect between the thoughts and the fingers, and when that happens, heaven only knows what’s going to come out. 🙂


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    JYJames wrote:

    A TWW Tutorial:
    This is excellent.
    How about a tutorial or a youtube video (like the one about how the Sunday morning worship now rolls… – looking for that link that someone shared recently on TWW) – on the bait-and-switch of new leadership?
    A mega was built over 35 years by the guy who now runs the NAE. The new guy waited about a year and then began to disassemble the multi-generational aspects, the staff, the paid-for facility, worship teams, etc. With multiple areas for worship of many different styles, covered up the windows in the traditional sanctuary. Basically tried to change it to a black box. Perhaps mothball the donated European million dollar organ, when there is already a black box on site in another multi-use area.
    Some core givers of that white-haired generation left.

    What? Covered up the windows in the traditional sanctuary? Now why would this be? I’m trying to wrap my mind around this. Perhaps it was because the windows were stained glass that depicted stories in the Bible, and that was too traditional and hence offensive to the new powers that be. Or perhaps the pastor wanted the congregation’s UNDIVIDED attention. We can’t have pewpeons looking out the windows during the sermon. That was something I used to like to do. 😉


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    Deb wrote:

    Louisville’s rag The Courier Journal:

    Oh my. I remember it when it was called “The Courier-Journal and Louisville Times.” The evening paper did not survive but the Courier-Journal (aka the Journal) did. I notice you called it a rag? What on earth happened to it; did it deteriorate into some rag? That would be so sad.

    When I was a wee thing one of the section editors of the paper had a job during the depression but his wife, a school teacher, was unemployed. They had a little boy child my age so she opened up a pre-school/kindergarten in their basement, and thus I learned to read early . They were good people. The paper was a good paper then.


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Kimberly Rock-Shelton:
    We are both Kentuckians. I live a ground zero and can’t swing a dead cat without hitting a YRR. :o)

    It is unrecognizable from the SBC I grew up in.

    The SBC is not the same as it was in the 60s and 70s….I don’t know what it is now….the United Methodist Churches look like what I grew up in today….


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    @ okrapod:

    'Rag' is just slang for newspaper. I am disappointed that they caved to Al Mohler's demand to TAKE DOWN THAT ARTICLE! What a strange request by a Calvinist who believes God controls EVERYTHING, even the publication of that column in the paper.


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    @ BL:

    Happens to me quite a bit. But I have the extraordinary power to edit my own comments. 🙂


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    @ Christiane:

    The strap across her chest sounds just like C.J. Mahaney. The poor women in CLC/SGM had to be careful how they buckled their shoulder seatbelts across their bosoms. I am dead serious!


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    GSD wrote:

    There are more than a few Kentuckians here. So there is still hope for the Commonwealth.
    We should all meet up and have breakfast some Sunday, maybe in Louisville, then “attend church” together at some small church plant, like the one at the Marriott off Hurstborne.
    I’m joking, of course.

    Todd Co. Kentuckian chiming in – bring posters and water.


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    heads up: Trump reported just appointed a new religious advisary board . . . some of the names were predictable, others quite surprising


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    Anonymous Insider wrote:

    No full time pastor at FBCRM lived at or below poverty level – not even close. If we are talking about interns, that’s a different story. Several people were in paid positions outside the pastoral staff.

    I don’t understand this practice of paying so many people in a church. No church that I’ve been part of had so many members of the staff that wanted pay with benefits, etc. Why is that? Can somebody tell me?


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    @ Deb:
    How humiliating for such a young girl to be exposed to that abuse.


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    @ Deb:
    Way to go! He went on to say that some bloggers just do not like strong leadership. I remember that part well.


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    @ dee:
    You’re welcome.


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    GSD wrote:

    There are more than a few Kentuckians here. So there is still hope for the Commonwealth. We should all meet up and have breakfast some Sunday, maybe in Louisville, then “attend church” together at some small church plant, like the one at the Marriott off Hurstborne. I’m joking, of course.

    I like the idea of meeting up, though. I live in Pennsylvania and Louisville, Kentucky would be about a 4 hour (ed.) drive.


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    @ Watchman on the wall:
    For the gals it is a Jezebel spirit.


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    Darlene wrote:

    GSD wrote:
    There are more than a few Kentuckians here. So there is still hope for the Commonwealth.
    We should all meet up and have breakfast some Sunday, maybe in Louisville, then “attend church” together at some small church plant, like the one at the Marriott off Hurstborne.
    I’m joking, of course.
    I like the idea of meeting up, though. I live in Pennsylvania and Louisville, Kentucky would be about a 4 mile drive.

    Whoop, I meant 4 HOUR drive.


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    BL wrote:

    Everyone was guilty!

    The ever popular ‘everyone is guilty so no one is guilty’. We are all sinners!


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    Christiane wrote:

    It certainly is. Nothing wrong with gently, firmly saying up front: ‘no, not here’ to a young neo-Cal pastor coming aboard … it is a great kindness to guide and guard the young man away from performing that which brings harm

    Our former pastor used to do this with sbts Seminary students who came to “volunteer”. He told them they would only be frustrated as we voted on everything, had women deacons and women taught men in classes.


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    BL wrote:

    I mean, with TWO SIDES people might begin to wonder if it wasn’t just a matter of *sides* but rather was a matter of right and wrong! Can’t have that now, can we?

    Yes! It is about right and wrong. Truth and deception. If only people would refocus on that as believers!


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    @ Darlene:
    Todd county is about the same!


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    Gudbrand wrote:

    This blog was written well over a week ago by one of the teens at FBCRM. The hurt and scarring is deep and affects all ages.

    https://www.theodysseyonline.com/didnt-fit-in-at-youth-group

    Poor girl!!! Sounds like they went full on crazy Comp, complete with your body makes boys sin nonsense.

    Makes me glad for my sweet, imperfect but well meaning youth group director who took our mixed group horseback riding/shooting! Ha.


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    okrapod wrote:

    The evening paper did not survive but the Courier-Journal (aka the Journal) did. I notice you called it a rag? What on earth happened to it; did it deteriorate into some rag? That would be so sad.

    The Bingham kids had a family feud and one of them wrote a tell all about the parents.

    I want to read the history of how it got started and it is not nice at all. Basically Flagler’s Widow (Miami developer) married poor Colonel Bingham and then mysteriously died of an overdose of laudanum. He inherited Flagler’s money and started The Courier-Journal and Louisville Times.


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    Deb wrote:

    @ okrapod:
    ‘Rag’ is just slang for newspaper. I am disappointed that they caved to Al Mohler’s demand to TAKE DOWN THAT ARTICLE! What a strange request by a Calvinist who believes God controls EVERYTHING, even the publication of that column in the paper.

    Perhaps Al Mohler thinks he has to step in for God from time to time, just to keep God on His toes. 😉


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    I do hope all present appreciate my choice to not turn my acerbic wit upon Elizabeth. Though sorely tempted, I assure you…


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    @ Lydia:
    Oops. I meant to say I read the history and that the kids sold it to Gannett.


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    Deb wrote:

    @ Christiane:
    The strap across her chest sounds just like C.J. Mahaney. The poor women in CLC/SGM had to be careful how they bucked their shoulder seatbelts across their bosoms. I am dead serious!

    I’ve read that ladies in Doug Wilson’s Kirk and seminary had to be aware of the same thing. Funny how that is. Not only having to worry about showing any kind of cleavage, but also have to worry about wearing anything that reveals the fact that you have breasts. That’s a big problem with females who are well endowed.


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Watchman on the wall:
    For the gals it is a Jezebel spirit.

    Back in my former Christian cult, it was called an “Eve spirit.” The leader/pastor invented a series of teachings on the characteristics of an “Eve spirit.” Oh, and every female had an “Eve spirit” for which the males should be on sharp alert lest they be devoured by such a spirit. Yes, DEVOURED was the actual word used.


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    dee wrote:

    These pastors have quick tempers. My husband and I met one in Panera who decided to try to convince us of the reality of Young Earth Creationism. When we presented our disagreement he slammed his head down on the table and covered it with his arms. People turned and looked all over the restaurant. I told Deb when it happened.

    All that fuss over a difference in flying spaghetti monsters? One which claims you can only use ragu and never prego? And said pastor is how old? There was a time when no pastor, of any stripe, would have made a scene like that.


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    Darlene wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    @ Watchman on the wall:
    For the gals it is a Jezebel spirit.

    Back in my former Christian cult, it was called an “Eve spirit.” The leader/pastor invented a series of teachings on the characteristics of an “Eve spirit.” Oh, and every female had an “Eve spirit” for which the males should be on sharp alert lest they be devoured by such a spirit. Yes, DEVOURED was the actual word used.

    You’ve just got to wonder what these peoples damage is!

    Also an Adam spirit i guess would be sinning willingly and blaming the wife?


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    Kimberly Rock-Shelton wrote:

    to say there is not a single SB consensus on church polity is in short BS

    If you Google “Southern Baptist Convention FAQ”, you will find an interesting list of questions and answers on church polity, such as:

    Q: Why is the SBC so committed to the autonomy of the local church?
    A: We recognize that in the New Testament there was no centralized ecclesiastical authority over the churches that forced the churches into any form of compliance. There was encouragement, exhortation, and admonition, but there was never enforcement. We strongly adhere to that principle. Jesus Christ is the head of the local church – we are not. Each church is responsible before God for the policies it sets and decisions it makes.

    Q: What is the SBC’s stance on a church having elders?
    A: The Southern Baptist Convention has not taken an official stance on these matters. Because each church is autonomous, each issue is addressed and determined by the local church.

    That last answer is used a lot on the FAQ page. By pleading autonomy, a local church can get away with most things as long as they don’t commit BFM2000 blasphemy. Before you know it, Calvinism will be acceptable theology in SBC, where non-Calvinistic belief and practice is the default. Oh, wait a minute, it already is!!


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    Lydia wrote:

    BL wrote:
    Everyone was guilty!
    The ever popular ‘everyone is guilty so no one is guilty’. We are all sinners!

    Commonly used when the pastor or elders sin, but not so much when pewpeons sin.


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    @ Lydia:

    I'm sure we preserved that quote too. I should have anticipated it would disappear.


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    Lydia wrote:

    Christiane wrote:
    It certainly is. Nothing wrong with gently, firmly saying up front: ‘no, not here’ to a young neo-Cal pastor coming aboard … it is a great kindness to guide and guard the young man away from performing that which brings harm
    Our former pastor used to do this with sbts Seminary students who came to “volunteer”. He told them they would only be frustrated as we voted on everything, had women deacons and women taught men in classes.

    Lydia, so if you don’t mind sharing, how is it that your former church was taken over by the NeoCals when it had congregational vote, and women deacons & teaching men? How long did it take for the *reform* to be successful?


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    Darlene wrote:

    Oh, and every female had an “Eve spirit” for which the males should be on sharp alert lest they be devoured by such a spirit. Yes, DEVOURED was the actual word used.

    I just heard a Calvary Chapel pastor teach over the radio that this is what Genesis 3:16 is all about, namely woman’s desire to dominate men and stray from their authorized role in Scripture.


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    dee wrote:

    Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
    In my 29 years as a faculty member at a major, SECULAR, University, I have been to many heated/contentious faculty meetings, some over important issues (such as the future of departments). I have NEVER seen it degrade to people “throwing chairs!”
    These pastors have quick tempers. My husband and I met one in Panera who decided to try to convince us of the reality of Young Earth Creationism. When we presented our disagreement he slammed his head down on the table and covered it with his arms. People turned and looked all over the restaurant. I told Deb when it happened.

    Did this pastor personally attach your faith?? That is a very common approach… I usually find that they have to resort to emotion and personal attaches when they can not reason their way through it/defend themselves..


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    Lea wrote:

    Darlene wrote:
    Lydia wrote:
    @ Watchman on the wall:
    For the gals it is a Jezebel spirit.
    Back in my former Christian cult, it was called an “Eve spirit.” The leader/pastor invented a series of teachings on the characteristics of an “Eve spirit.” Oh, and every female had an “Eve spirit” for which the males should be on sharp alert lest they be devoured by such a spirit. Yes, DEVOURED was the actual word used.
    You’ve just got to wonder what these peoples damage is!
    Also an Adam spirit i guess would be sinning willingly and blaming the wife?

    Lea, the only time the leader/pastor spoke of an Adam spirit is when he would label the men “dull Adam” because they had allowed themselves to be devoured by an Eve spirit. I couldn’t make this stuff up if I wanted to. 😉


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    Hi Guys,

    If you know anything about Linkedin, you may know that there are several groups which provide a forum for discussing various posted topics.

    Under the Biblical Leadership group, I have launched a new topic on the place of women in church leadership in our churches. Please join us for some discussion.

    It is curious that a number of people have clicked on the No-Likee button. Either they are not interested in this topic or worse, they are against women in church leadership and this is how they show it. We could use a number of people to drop by and hit the Like button. 🙂

    “What is Your or Your Church’s Belief and Practice About Christian Women in Church Leadership?

    1. What ministries can or can’t women do in your church and in your denomination, and why?

    2. What Scriptures do you base your belief and practice on?”

    https://www.linkedin.com/groups/3056461


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    Darlene wrote:
    Oh, and every female had an “Eve spirit” for which the males should be on sharp alert lest they be devoured by such a spirit. Yes, DEVOURED was the actual word used.
    I just heard a Calvary Chapel pastor teach over the radio that this is what Genesis 3:16 is all about, namely woman’s desire to dominate men and stray from their authorized role in Scripture.

    Yep, misogyny isn’t limited to the Neo-Cals. My former Christian cult was not Calvinist by any stretch of the imagination.


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    Darlene wrote:

    My former Christian cult was not Calvinist by any stretch of the imagination.

    I haven’t heard a fundagelical pastor yet who can’t stretch his imagination over what he believes Scripture says. And if you’re a good teachee, you’ll believe it too.


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    Deb wrote:

    After the marriage license is signed, she is stuck with him FOR LIFE!

    Well, that triggered a thought train for me!

    She is stuck with him for life – Ah, but just like in the days of Moses, these pastor-hubbies have given themselves the right to issue a bill of divorce at any time they please and then move on down the road to a better church-wife.

    Come to think about it, their positional pastor-stance makes them the uber husband of the church, made in their image of husbandness.

    Pastor-hubby can go completely off the rails, and church-wife is called to submit, submit, submit.

    Pastor-hubby can speak harshly and make enormous demands, and church-wife is to respond in humility with respectful ‘yes sirs’ and provide whatever pastor-hubby desires. And, with joy!

    Pastor-hubby has purpose and vision from God to accomplish important things, and church-wife is to sublimate her purpose and vision and do everything possible to help pastor-hubby in the pursuit of his purpose and vision. Because God called pastor-hubby to this position see? God called church-wife, sure, but in a completely different way.

    There is no abuse that pastor-hubby can do that would possibly justify church-wife seeking assistance or intervention from others, or speaking to others about the relationship, and separation or divorce initiated by church-wife is right out!

    However, if pastor-hubby gets burned out on his current church-wife, or gets a seductive wink from a prettier church-wife across town – no problem! Pastor-hubby announces that God has called him and he must follow.

    Yep, pastors are the uber-hubbies of the church.


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    Gudbrand wrote:

    This blog was written well over a week ago by one of the teens at FBCRM. The hurt and scarring is deep and affects all ages.

    https://www.theodysseyonline.com/didnt-fit-in-at-youth-group

    Her summation shows she has obtained some wisdom through her experience that many do not obtain till much much later, if ever.


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    Darlene wrote:

    Darlene wrote:
    Oh, and every female had an “Eve spirit” for which the males should be on sharp alert lest they be devoured by such a spirit.

    Wow, sounds a bit like the heresy we know as ‘Two Seed In The Spirit Predestination’ … very, very strange theology, much beloved of the Christian Identity White Supremist Groups …


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    Lydia wrote:

    For the gals it is a Jezebel spirit.

    Yes, that was the go-to accusational trumpcard guaranteed to always successfully force women back in their woman-cage in the shep/disc cult.


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    Christiane wrote:

    Wow, sounds a bit like the heresy we know as ‘Two Seed In The Spirit Predestination’ … very, very strange theology, much beloved of the Christian Identity White Supremist Groups …

    Yes, there’s something for everyone out there in fundagelical land.


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    @ roebuck:
    Hi ROEBUCK,
    unfortunately, this two-seed teaching, also called ‘Serpent Seed’ theology is used to justify antisemitism … it has quite a history and a lot of variations, so there is a great possibility that remnants of this two-seed heresy are present in some of the worst of the misogyny in patriarchal circles. I’m sure there is plenty of research on it.


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    @ Bill M:
    Wow. She is sharp for her age! More of an independent thinker than most hee age.


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    BL wrote:

    Deb wrote:

    @ BL: Fixed it.

    Thanks! Sometimes there is a time/space continuum disconnect between the thoughts and the fingers, and when that happens, heaven only knows what’s going to come out.

    “I’m used to my bifocals,
    My dentures work just fine;
    I can live with my lumbago
    But I sure do miss my mind…”
    — possible J Vernon Magee


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    Gudbrand wrote:

    This blog was written well over a week ago by one of the teens at FBCRM. The hurt and scarring is deep and affects all ages.

    https://www.theodysseyonline.com/didnt-fit-in-at-youth-group

    I keep telling myself that Jesus snubbed the Righteous God Squad types and hung out with the rejects and losers.


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    BL wrote:

    She is stuck with him for life – Ah, but just like in the days of Moses, these pastor-hubbies have given themselves the right to issue a bill of divorce at any time they please and then move on down the road to a better church-wife.

    “As a man gets old in years, his eye turns towards younger women…”
    — Voddie “Beat the Shyness out of Them” Baucham


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    Darlene wrote:

    Back in my former Christian cult, it was called an “Eve spirit.” The leader/pastor invented a series of teachings on the characteristics of an “Eve spirit.”

    And of course there was no corresponding Adam spirit even though Adam purposely rebelled.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    “As a man gets old in years, his eye turns towards younger women…”
    — Voddie “Beat the Shyness out of Them” Baucham

    That reminds me of the two Botkin sisters, those of the Stay at Home Daughter movement. Something’s not right in that family.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    I just heard a Calvary Chapel pastor teach over the radio that this is what Genesis 3:16 is all about, namely woman’s desire to dominate men and stray from their authorized role in Scripture.

    It’s Calvary Chapel. I have always gotten a vibe of something wrong from them, like they distill down and concentrate all the ways Christians can go sour.

    Back when I was listening to Christianese AM Radio, CC dominated the airwaves in SoCal. They defined “born-again Christian” locally like there was No Salvation Outside of Calvary Chapel.


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    “As a man gets old in years, his eye turns towards younger women…”
    — Voddie “Beat the Shyness out of Them” Baucham

    That reminds me of the two Botkin sisters, those of the Stay at Home Daughter movement. Something’s not right in that family.

    I only used the first half of that quote because the full one — “…and that’s why God gives him daughters” — gives me a creepy incest vibe that throws the original reply off-topic.


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    Max wrote:

    Jesus Christ is the head of the local church – we are not.

    Now, there’s a radical idea! Authoritarian, move over … Jesus is supposed to be in charge!


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    Lydia wrote:

    BL wrote:

    Everyone was guilty!

    The ever popular ‘everyone is guilty so no one is guilty’. We are all sinners!

    Just a variant of “But EVERYBODY Does It!”

    “If everyone is Speshul, then NO ONE CAN BE!”
    — Syndrome (the burned-out fanboy turned main supervillain from The Incredibles


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    As a former member of FBCRM, I watched and listened as this drama unfolded. I used to watch FBC sermons on local TV. When Darville started as interim his sermons were light, airy with a dose of humor. As soon as he became permanent full-time pastor the tone and content of his sermons changed. I made the comment to my wife at the time, "they have gone and hired themselves a hyper-calvinist." Subsequent conversations with friends at FBC confirmed the statement. They were taken by surprise by his uncompromising theology as well as his increasingly confrontational attitude. I had read accounts of other Neo-cal takeovers on TWW. Darville had obviously read the playbook. Deceptive is one of the kinder words to describe Darville. He had a plan from the beginning. As it became obvious that it was not going to become a reality he became angrier, showing contempt and hostility toward those who opposed him.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Darlene wrote:
    They then go on to ask other Calvinist’s opinion of what they can do to change the hearts and minds of the people so they’ll be converted to the “Doctrines of Grace.” THIS IS THEIR M.O. FOLKS. They see NOTHING wrong with bringing about division and dissension within a church body. In fact, when division occurs because of them preaching Reformed soteriology, they believe they are being persecuted for the truth.
    Like Citizen Robespierre’s Society of Perfect Virtue or Comrade Pol Pot’s Perfect Communistic Agrarian Cambodia, the Cause is so Righteous as to justify any evil whatsoever to bring it about. “FOR THE CAUSE!”

    And folks in the pews just go right along with it, even if they know the cause is SO WRONG….


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    Lydia wrote:

    For the gals it is a Jezebel spirit.

    The Jezebel spirit is gender-less. Throughout church history, it has manifested itself best in authoritarian men. It is a spirit which drives the flesh to control, manipulate and intimidate others. It is at home in the hearts of arrogant New Calvinist pastors/elders.


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    dee wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    I need to talk with you about your soon to presence in this area. I am wondering if we can meet halfway or something depending on how things go. I’ll talk with David.

    Assuming I can get through the airport security lines, it looks like I’ll be in the Gettysburg area from July 5-8. If you’re able to meet up early in that week, you can get a package deal — both my writing partners (the burned-out preacher and self-educated son of a steelworker) as well. I think you know my private email address (it’s the one I enter in this reply box).


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    Darlene wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    Christiane wrote:
    It certainly is. Nothing wrong with gently, firmly saying up front: ‘no, not here’ to a young neo-Cal pastor coming aboard … it is a great kindness to guide and guard the young man away from performing that which brings harm
    Our former pastor used to do this with sbts Seminary students who came to “volunteer”. He told them they would only be frustrated as we voted on everything, had women deacons and women taught men in classes.

    Lydia, so if you don’t mind sharing, how is it that your former church was taken over by the NeoCals when it had congregational vote, and women deacons & teaching men? How long did it take for the *reform* to be successful?

    Reform is not complete but getting there. The pulpit committee was totally ignorant about the YRR movement. The former pastor just never got into it. We were friends and knew I had issues with SBTS and asked me about SGM out of the blue one day. He was a scholar but could not teach there and knew it. He was old earth, too. He wanted to teach toward the end of his career so moved to where he could. He did not bother with the convention.

    So, the pulpit committee after a year hired a young man who said he was not a Calvinist. For the year they had an interim that primed them and he was extremely likable. I was just not interested. I could not stand his sermons. To go from a quiet scholar to the show (again) was more than I could stand. We rarely stayed for service. I knew the train wreck was coming. It was like he was sent there to smooth the way.

    When I went there after my seeker megas experience, I promised myself I would not get too involved. I limited myself to stuff the kids were involved in. I taught GA’s, SS. No committees! No way.

    People don’t want to know. I learned that at the seeker megas which give the spectators nothing but a big show they love. Now I am a done.

    Btw: I don’t believe the vote outcome for one minute. There were some older retired SBTS people there who spoke up after the candidate was announced. A lot of people left. I would say about 1/4. The vote was like 2 over a super majority. By that time the pulpit committee was trying to save face and literally selling the guy with emotionalism that was ridiculous. The state convention guys were leading the effort behind the scenes I came to find out later.

    So, I got to witnessfrom, a window, similar to what I had been reading about and heard from others in this city about takeovers. (10 years ago a woman cutting my hair told me about her church takeover by SBTS! Her husband was youth minister and was fired)

    I knew better than to get involved. A few years later some people from there now call me with questions, etc. I have more influence when they approach me. I tell them what to look for that is coming. I get calls back….’They are doing this or that you warned about!’. I am like a seer. :o)

    Truth is people dont know. It does not occur to them they cannot trust their own Seminary. During these takeovers the Pew sitters never stick together they always end up factions and at each other’s throats. They rarely blame the leaders or hold them accountable.

    There is another piece to this I like to warn people about. This comes from my organizational development days. There is a tyranny of “change” out there. People are often accused of just not liking change. This is meant to marginalize them as backwards rubes who don’t want progress.

    But not all change is good. Change for change’s sake is ignorant. And I say that as someone who craves change all the time. I am not a routine person and I would never make it going to the same office every day. I love change. But not all of it is profitable or efficient. I’m getting better as i had kids and got older, though. :o). It would be unfair of me to accuse my family of not liking change in order to accommodate me.

    I have noticed that a lot of these take over guys use that accusation against people. Of course the change that they are touting is biblical because as you know, people were not really biblical before they got there.

    I did not mean to write a novella!


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    @ Max:
    I was never called that in the SBC,btw. I used to read these blogs where women had come out of fundy patriarchy and they were called that all the time. I thought it was weird because I knew Jezebel was an archetype.


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    @ Dan:
    And Elizabeth was dispatched to remind us that people had listened to his preaching for a year before he was hired full time. Yes it’s right out of the Playbook. Blame the very people you deceived!

    It just floors me that they think they will get by with all the deception either here and now or later….


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    Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    Burwell wrote:
    Burwell wrote:
    When a pastor has to meet at Milton & Miles to keep his anger in check, and to keep himself from throwing chairs
    What kills me is the continued commitment from denominational (or whatever the SBC actually is) leaders who will stand behind men with rage issues, or who protect child molesters, have extra marital affairs, etc., without batting an eye. This type of anger is such a clear violation of what Paul wrote about elders in 1 Timothy 3:2-3
    Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
    (Emphasis mine)
    In my 29 years as a faculty member at a major, SECULAR, University, I have been to many heated/contentious faculty meetings, some over important issues (such as the future of departments). I have NEVER seen it degrade to people “throwing chairs!”

    Never in my 13 years either in the same academic environment. And to think they accuse us professors of being grown infants and petty schemers. I’ve never seen anything in academia to match what I’ve seen in three of the last four churches our family attended.


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    @ Lea:

    We may look at it as Darville performed a long overdue house cleaning of staff.


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    Better said that Darville cleaned out staff that had long needed to leave.


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    Kimberly Rock-Shelton wrote:

    The Neo-Cals aren’t just interested in taking over churches. My suspicion that is gaining more traction is that Mohler wants to take over the world as it were and make himself Protestant Pope of the Evangelicals…Money and power by any means necessary is the name of the game.PS – I’m not bitter, just gifted with insight, discernment, and a highly calibrated BS detector.

    Spot on!


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    only used the first half of that quote because the full one — “…and that’s why God gives him daughters” — gives me a creepy incest vibe that throws the original reply off-topic.

    It gave a lot of people the same vibe. It was quite the topic at the time.


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Max:
    I was never called that in the SBC,btw. I used to read these blogs where women had come out of fundy patriarchy and they were called that all the time. I thought it was weird because I knew Jezebel was an archetype.

    I thought all of that stuff was weird cultish sects. I’m so freaked out at the concept of it infiltrating the Sbc! Like that poor youth group girl hearing she tempted boys by existing. That’s not the church I grew up in.

    I feel like we need a corresponding ‘Jezebel spirit’ term to toss back at em.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    keep telling myself that Jesus snubbed the Righteous God Squad types and hung out with the rejects and losers.

    That’s what I tell my kids. Besides, it makes life much more interesting! Because those “losers” were labeled such by the religious leaders…. yet they changed the world.


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    Lea wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    @ Max:
    I was never called that in the SBC,btw. I used to read these blogs where women had come out of fundy patriarchy and they were called that all the time. I thought it was weird because I knew Jezebel was an archetype.

    I thought all of that stuff was weird cultish sects. I’m so freaked out at the concept of it infiltrating the Sbc! Like that poor youth group girl hearing she tempted boys by existing. That’s not the church I grew up in.

    I feel like we need a corresponding ‘Jezebel spirit’ term to toss back at em.

    Diotrephes


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    Nicolaitan: conquerer of the people. Mentioned twice in Revelation as a very bad thing to be.


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    @ Lydia:
    Scripture indicates that the things which come against the Church fall within three categories: the world, the flesh and the devil.

    Lord knows that the world comes to church these days. The Church of the living God used to be counter-culture to the world; it is now a sub-culture of it in far too many places. The New Calvinist movement is focused on being “culturally-relevant” and is dragging as much world into the church as it can while still appearing to be Christian. And. of course, flesh is being manifested in all its glory in the 21st century church. The steady stream of TWW reports are evidence of that. But what we don’t want to admit is that the devil is alive and well on planet earth … many of the battles that are being fought over theo-political issues were started in a spiritual realm, designed to divert the Church from the Great Commission. The New Calvinist takeover of the SBC is but one example of that .. the devil surely has his hand in things.


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    Law Prof wrote:

    Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
    Burwell wrote:
    Burwell wrote:
    When a pastor has to meet at Milton & Miles to keep his anger in check, and to keep himself from throwing chairs
    What kills me is the continued commitment from denominational (or whatever the SBC actually is) leaders who will stand behind men with rage issues, or who protect child molesters, have extra marital affairs, etc., without batting an eye. This type of anger is such a clear violation of what Paul wrote about elders in 1 Timothy 3:2-3
    Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
    (Emphasis mine)
    In my 29 years as a faculty member at a major, SECULAR, University, I have been to many heated/contentious faculty meetings, some over important issues (such as the future of departments). I have NEVER seen it degrade to people “throwing chairs!”
    Never in my 13 years either in the same academic environment. And to think they accuse us professors of being grown infants and petty schemers. I’ve never seen anything in academia to match what I’ve seen in three of the last four churches our family attended.

    Unfortunately, I agree with you..


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    @ Lydia:

    I never knew your story. Thanks for sharing!


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    Max wrote:

    @ Lydia:
    Scripture indicates that the things which come against the Church fall within three categories: the world, the flesh and the devil.
    Lord knows that the world comes to church these days. The Church of the living God used to be counter-culture to the world; it is now a sub-culture of it in far too many places. The New Calvinist movement is focused on being “culturally-relevant” and is dragging as much world into the church as it can while still appearing to be Christian. And. of course, flesh is being manifested in all its glory in the 21st century church. The steady stream of TWW reports are evidence of that. But what we don’t want to admit is that the devil is alive and well on planet earth … many of the battles that are being fought over theo-political issues were started in a spiritual realm, designed to divert the Church from the Great Commission. The New Calvinist takeover of the SBC is but one example of that .. the devil surely has his hand in things.

    With these Calvinists it is all three as you said….I seriously believe they only care about themselves.
    The SBC will be a shell of its self in 20 years. The young adults and youth are leaving. They are not coming back, even when they have children…. The older folks 50+ are leaving we have had enough….do people 35-50 attend? Or are they out of church too?


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    Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
    Burwell wrote:
    Burwell wrote:
    When a pastor has to meet at Milton & Miles to keep his anger in check, and to keep himself from throwing chairs
    What kills me is the continued commitment from denominational (or whatever the SBC actually is) leaders who will stand behind men with rage issues, or who protect child molesters, have extra marital affairs, etc., without batting an eye. This type of anger is such a clear violation of what Paul wrote about elders in 1 Timothy 3:2-3
    Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
    (Emphasis mine)
    In my 29 years as a faculty member at a major, SECULAR, University, I have been to many heated/contentious faculty meetings, some over important issues (such as the future of departments). I have NEVER seen it degrade to people “throwing chairs!”
    Never in my 13 years either in the same academic environment. And to think they accuse us professors of being grown infants and petty schemers. I’ve never seen anything in academia to match what I’ve seen in three of the last four churches our family attended.
    Unfortunately, I agree with you..

    I taught high school for 30+ years…also saw some heated discussions…..never saw a chair thrown, never saw a punch thrown…..I am so glad that God sent me away from being in churches. I do not think y’all understand how glad, blessed I been…


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    @ Lydia:

    I like both of those but they may be too obscure.

    Maybe we should go right for the big guns and say judas.


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    @ Lea:
    Oh wow. That is the big gun! :o)

    The deception they perpetuate on people is a variation of the Judas kiss.


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    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    I do hope all present appreciate my choice to not turn my acerbic wit upon Elizabeth.

    Your wit is worse than your scope?


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    K.D. wrote:

    I taught high school for 30+ years…also saw some heated discussions…..never saw a chair thrown, never saw a punch thrown…..I am so glad that God sent me away from being in churches. I do not think y’all understand how glad, blessed I been…

    Ever watch IU basketball…Bobby Knight?


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    Burwell wrote:

    What kills me is the continued commitment from denominational (or whatever the SBC actually is) leaders who will stand behind men with rage issues, or who protect child molesters, have extra marital affairs, etc., without batting an eye.

    SBC, at the national level, is pretty much hands-off on these sort of issues. On its website, the FAQ page says this:

    Q: I believe our pastor (or my church) has acted inappropriately. What will the SBC do about it?
    A: Actually, the Southern Baptist Convention is not in a position to take any disciplinary action regarding pastors or churches. Again, because of the autonomy of the local church, each SBC church is responsible before God to set its own policies regarding pastors or problems in the church. Such policies are entirely up to the individual congregation.

    Soooo … how would a local congregation go about getting relief in nasty situations if congregational governance does not exist in the case of elder-rule polity? In such churches, the pew has no say in establishing policies to cover these things.


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    And of course there was no corresponding Adam spirit even though Adam purposely rebelled.

    I have heard teaching on what we might call the Adam spirit or the essential sin of males. You guessed it. Avoiding taking authority. Letting their wives control them. Listening to their wives with any possibility of changing their minds due to their wives' input.


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    Dan wrote:

    He had a plan from the beginning. As it became obvious that it was not going to become a reality he became angrier, showing contempt and hostility toward those who opposed him

    Cluster B Theology.


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    Max wrote:

    Burwell wrote:
    What kills me is the continued commitment from denominational (or whatever the SBC actually is) leaders who will stand behind men with rage issues, or who protect child molesters, have extra marital affairs, etc., without batting an eye.
    SBC, at the national level, is pretty much hands-off on these sort of issues. On its website, the FAQ page says this:
    Q: I believe our pastor (or my church) has acted inappropriately. What will the SBC do about it?
    A: Actually, the Southern Baptist Convention is not in a position to take any disciplinary action regarding pastors or churches. Again, because of the autonomy of the local church, each SBC church is responsible before God to set its own policies regarding pastors or problems in the church. Such policies are entirely up to the individual congregation.
    Soooo … how would a local congregation go about getting relief in nasty situations if congregational governance does not exist in the case of elder-rule polity? In such churches, the pew has no say in establishing policies to cover these things.

    Except when a local church ordain’s a women… I am sure they would come down on it faster than Dee pugs on a piece of bacon on the floor!


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    @ K.D.:
    My former church is struggling. More than half of those left only go to SS then leave. Many of those are the seniors. (And they plan to get rid of SS and do home groups but they always start with the youth and ease into it) SS is a big deal at that church. A bigger deal than the service. Members have always taught the classes. Not staffers. They are in for a big shock. It is an old established church and many former members left Legacies. It is debt free. So it is a perfect place to pillage and plunder so you don’t have to actually work to keep people. In fact the Neo calvinist who have taken over rarely work at all. Shock! Not.

    The Seminary dispatched quite a few students to attend there and volunteer. That helps with the numbers but they are causing all kinds of havoc with the long time members, taking over committee meetings, making unilateral decisions claiming they have the permission of the pastor as if that was the last word, etc.

    Of course quite a few young married men with 2.5 kids and picket fence were courted early on and are big Defenders and put on the big committees. They now talk like they swallowed a Piper book. Heady stuff for them.

    Same old authoritarian stuff. People Let It Go on too long and find themselves stuck having to make a decision whether to stay and Slug It Out or to leave and have peace.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    have heard teaching on what we might call the Adam spirit or the essential sin of males. You guessed it. Avoiding taking authority. Letting their wives control them. Listening to their wives with any possibility of changing their minds due to their wive’s input.

    Oh my word. Did you read that piece Russell Moore wrote for the Henry Institute a while back where he chided men who had asked their wives about attending a Promise Keepers rally. Evidently that was a really bad thing to do. They don’t ask and coordinate schedules with their wives. They are to “tell” their wives they are going.

    I’m not sure but I think it was the same paper where he wrote, comps are wimps and we need more patriarchy.

    Sounds like what you are talking about.


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    Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    Except when a local church ordain’s a woman… I am sure they would come down on it faster than Dee pugs on a piece of bacon on the floor!

    Yep, that would get all SBC dogs bigger than pugs in a bustle. In that regard, the Baptist Faith & Message says “the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.”


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    K.D. wrote:

    The young adults and youth are leaving.

    The young adults and youth in my area are being drawn to an SBC-YRR church plant. The cool pastor, loud band, and free coffee/donuts have hooked them. The young lead pastor and his “elder” team are only in their 30s, but they are pulling it off. Gimmicks work.


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    Max wrote:

    The New Calvinist takeover of the SBC is but one example of that .. the devil surely has his hand in things.

    I rode a tank
    Held a general’s rank
    When the blitzkrieg raged
    And the bodies stank

    Pleased to meet you
    Hope you guess my name, oh yeah
    Ah, what’s puzzling you
    Is the nature of my game, oh yeah


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    @ Muff Potter:

    No Sypathy here…


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    @ roebuck:

    Sympathy.


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    Lydia wrote:

    Oh my word. Did you read that piece Russell Moore wrote for the Henry Institute a while back where he chided men who had asked their wives about attending a Promise Keepers rally. Evidently that was a really bad thing to do. They don’t ask and coordinate schedules with their wives. They are to “tell” their wives they are going.

    I’ll be though, that they would like to be consulted if their wives wanted to go to an event. So, I guess the “do unto others as you’d have them do to you” doesn’t apply to husbands. Too bad the neo-cals weren’t around to advise Christ.


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    Lydia wrote:

    K.D. wrote:
    I taught high school for 30+ years…also saw some heated discussions…..never saw a chair thrown, never saw a punch thrown…..I am so glad that God sent me away from being in churches. I do not think y’all understand how glad, blessed I been…
    Ever watch IU basketball…Bobby Knight?

    Sports at college has very little to do with academics….. At my institution they only report to the President….. Looks what Sandusky/Platerno got away with!!


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    Gram3 wrote:

    I have heard teaching on what we might call the Adam spirit or the essential sin of males. You guessed it. Avoiding taking authority. Letting their wives control them. Listening to their wives with any possibility of changing their minds due to their wive’s input.

    Geesh, talk about adding to the Bible. I guess they overlook the part about God telling Abraham to listen to Sarah.


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    Max wrote:

    Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    Except when a local church ordain’s a woman… I am sure they would come down on it faster than Dee pugs on a piece of bacon on the floor!

    Yep, that would get all SBC dogs bigger than pugs in a bustle. In that regard, the Baptist Faith & Message says “the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.”

    The 2000 BF&M used to trump the overall theme of God using male or female as he sees fit.


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    Max wrote:

    Burwell wrote:

    What kills me is the continued commitment from denominational (or whatever the SBC actually is) leaders who will stand behind men with rage issues, or who protect child molesters, have extra marital affairs, etc., without batting an eye.

    SBC, at the national level, is pretty much hands-off on these sort of issues. On its website, the FAQ page says this:

    Q: I believe our pastor (or my church) has acted inappropriately. What will the SBC do about it?
    A: Actually, the Southern Baptist Convention is not in a position to take any disciplinary action regarding pastors or churches. Again, because of the autonomy of the local church, each SBC church is responsible before God to set its own policies regarding pastors or problems in the church. Such policies are entirely up to the individual congregation.

    Soooo … how would a local congregation go about getting relief in nasty situations if congregational governance does not exist in the case of elder-rule polity? In such churches, the pew has no say in establishing policies to cover these things.

    The autonomy of the church is used when it supports the SBC position of no wimmin in any positions of authority.


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    Max wrote:

    SBC, at the national level, is pretty much hands-off on these sort of issues.

    Does the SBC still have its Ethics Commission?
    (ERLC)? The mission statement given on the web for the Ethics Commission is as follows: “The ERLC exists to articulate every priority and every agenda item in terms of where it fits in seeking the kingdom of God in this era, in order to equip churches to stand before the watching world with the sort of quiet confidence that characterized Jesus.”

    Perhaps the ERLC just applies to the workings of the SBC as a convention rather than the internal affairs of member Churches?


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    Christiane wrote:

    Does the SBC still have its Ethics Commission?

    The current mission of ERLC is to engage in “culture wars”, rather than deal with internal SBC ethical issues. Russell Moore, current president of ERLC, is a highly visible and outspoken critic of moral decay in the country, but not in the church.


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    @ Jeffrey Chalmers:
    I mentioned Knight because of his public chair throwing. I am not a sports fan. At all. Sportsmanship is a thing of the past.


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    @ Max:
    The ERLC was one of the dumbest ideas ever. The Baptist ideal would never have one guy speaking for millions on specific issues. It is starting to backfire. Thank goodness!


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    Max wrote:

    Russell Moore, current president of ERLC, is a highly visible and outspoken critic of moral decay in the country, but not in the church.

    That sounds sadly broken.
    But since I do not fully understand the internal relationships of the SBC with its members, who am I to judge.


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    @ Christiane:

    “Russell Moore, current president of ERLC, is a highly visible and outspoken critic of moral decay in the country, but not in the church.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    with a statement like that, you as a common-sensed human being are qualified to judge it hypocritical and laughable. broken, indeed.


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    Max wrote:

    The current mission of ERLC is to engage in “culture wars”, rather than deal with internal SBC ethical issues. Russell Moore, current president of ERLC, is a highly visible and outspoken critic of moral decay in the country, but not in the church.

    In Christianese, “Moral Decay” = HOMOSEXUALITY! HOMOSEXUALITY! HOMOSEXUALITY!
    Given Culture War Christianity, ever wonder if Fred Phelps was just too direct for his own good?


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    In Christianese, “Moral Decay” = HOMOSEXUALITY! HOMOSEXUALITY! HOMOSEXUALITY!
    Given Culture War Christianity, ever wonder if Fred Phelps was just too direct for his own good

    You can get kicked out if your church is too “friendly” to homosexuals.
    Homosexuals and any kind of women leaders are just not wanted in the SBC.


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Dan:
    And Elizabeth was dispatched to remind us that people had listened to his preaching for a year before he was hired full time. Yes it’s right out of the Playbook. Blame the very people you deceived!

    It just floors me that they think they will get by with all the deception either here and now or later….

    They have so far.

    “Be a User, be an Abuser —
    Be a WINNER, not a Loser!”


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    @ elastigirl:
    I’m rather fond of the art of understatement. 🙂


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    Kimberly Rock-Shelton wrote:

    The Neo-Cals aren’t just interested in taking over churches. My suspicion that is gaining more traction is that Mohler wants to take over the world as it were and make himself Protestant Pope of the Evangelicals.

    “Today the SBC — TOMORROW THE WORLD!”


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    My suspicion that is gaining more traction is that Mohler wants to take over the world as it were and make himself Protestant Pope of the Evangelicals.

    “Today the SBC — TOMORROW THE WORLD!”

    No way HEADLESS, for some reason I can’t see the dignified Dr. Mohler kneeling down, washing the feet of prisoners who are female and Muslim. He doesn’t roll that way.
    Mohler should hang out with Francis for a season which would cure him of any dreams of world domination big time. 🙂


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    Too bad the neo-cals weren’t around to advise Christ.

    The NeoCals already know that they are among The Elect and that God knew this before the beginning of time (therefore Jesus’ birth, life, death, and resurrection were redundant).
    NeoCals go straight to Heaven and everybody else is going to Hell.


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    @ Lydia:
    Thank you for telling your story.


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    Dan wrote:

    Deceptive is one of the kinder words to describe Darville. He had a plan from the beginning. As it became obvious that it was not going to become a reality he became angrier, showing contempt and hostility toward those who opposed him

    Good comment. You'll find the post tomorrow quite interesting.


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    BL wrote:

    However, if pastor-hubby gets burned out on his current church-wife, or gets a seductive wink from a prettier church-wife across town – no problem! Pastor-hubby announces that God has called him and he must follow.

    Yep, pastors are the uber-hubbies of the church.

    BL, once again, your post is full of insight- it is an exact parallel.


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    Gudbrand wrote:

    This blog was written well over a week ago by one of the teens at FBCRM. The hurt and scarring is deep and affects all ages.

    https://www.theodysseyonline.com/didnt-fit-in-at-youth-group

    I’m so sorry to hear of kids being subjected to all that rot. Sheesh. But what a good head she has on her shoulders!


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    mot wrote:

    The autonomy of the church is used when it supports the SBC position of no wimmin in any positions of authority.

    I guess not! Who can imagine what would happen if they could make out her bewbs as she’s standing there in the pulpit, why every man in the room would probably lose his mind and mayhem would ensue!


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    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    I do hope all present appreciate my choice to not turn my acerbic wit upon Elizabeth. Though sorely tempted, I assure you…

    I am disappointed


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    Christiane wrote:

    No way HEADLESS, for some reason I can’t see the dignified Dr. Mohler kneeling down, washing the feet of prisoners who are female and Muslim. He doesn’t roll that way.
    Mohler should hang out with Francis for a season which would cure him of any dreams of world domination big time.

    Such a shame he can’t seem to do anything about sex abuse in the RC church 🙁


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    Darlene wrote:

    What? Covered up the windows in the traditional sanctuary? Now why would this be? I’m trying to wrap my mind around this.

    Exactly. It’s very odd. Yet the part really baffling (try to wrap one’s head around this…) is: Thousands of attendees who do not question the logic here.

    Moreover the facility was paid for, modern, beautiful.
    So why start a capital campaign to renovate?
    The major givers were in the traditional group.


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    As a former female student at Southeastern…let me tell you that SEBTS is a place of double speak, things going on under the surface, very money and connection driven, lots of nepotism, the women there are generally very socially manipulative (you have to be in order to operate as a female in that world.) It’s not objective, and it’s definitely celebrity culture driven while they pretend they’re not. It’s a very confining non-free place where everyone talks like robots. It’s a seriously creepy place. I don’t think I’m eager rating when I say it is very cult-like. Lots of the men at SEBTS and in the surrounding SBC churches have a really low emotional IQ. What’s being said often doesn’t match what’s actually happening. I really think it’s a business front disquised as a seminary. They were the most unfriendly people I have ever met in my life. People seemed miserable and stunted while pretending and saying everything was great, etc.

    So, no interaction or direct knowledge of Dennis Darville, but this is the world he was operating in and SEBTS likely enabled or hid his behavior. I wouldn’t trust them to do anything about it, because they probably already saw or knew about his behavior. Unless something tragic happened recently to him that could explain a sudden behavior change or he has a brain tumor that has suddenly altered his personality, he’s probably been like this his whole life.

    SEBTS also has a reputation of people leaving because of some sort of conflict or hiding something and them pretending that the person just neutrally left when there is usually more to the story.


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    Is it just me or is this anti-trump screed from Russell Moore sound a bit hollow given what him and others do in other venues concerning church polity? I did not totally vet this thought I am just asking but it seems to me that Dr. Molher, Mr. Moore, and their ilk seem to coop churches and seminaries and “refine” them to their liking. Again I could be wrong but this rhetoric concerning Trump strikes a bit ironic.


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    @ Rose:

    Thanks for your insights.


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    Rose wrote:

    As a former female student at Southeastern…let me tell you that SEBTS is a place of double speak, things going on under the surface, very money and connection driven, lots of nepotism, the women there are generally very socially manipulative (you have to be in order to operate as a female in that world.) It’s not objective, and it’s definitely celebrity culture driven while they pretend they’re not. It’s a very confining non-free place where everyone talks like robots. It’s a seriously creepy place. I don’t think I’m eager rating when I say it is very cult-like. Lots of the men at SEBTS and in the surrounding SBC churches have a really low emotional IQ. What’s being said often doesn’t match what’s actually happening. I really think it’s a business front disquised as a seminary. They were the most unfriendly people I have ever met in my life. People seemed miserable and stunted while pretending and saying everything was great, etc.

    Oh my…..Oh my goodness…..you hit the nail the nail on the head….this how I saw people when I was at SWBTS in Ft. Worth…..wow…..I thought it was just my experience.


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    siteseer wrote:

    Christiane wrote:
    No way HEADLESS, for some reason I can’t see the dignified Dr. Mohler kneeling down, washing the feet of prisoners who are female and Muslim. He doesn’t roll that way.
    Mohler should hang out with Francis for a season which would cure him of any dreams of world domination big time.
    Such a shame he can’t seem to do anything about sex abuse in the RC church

    He and we have done quite a bit. We are working very hard to address the problem, and even secular media admit we are making huge strides.


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    Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    siteseer wrote:

    Christiane wrote:
    No way HEADLESS, for some reason I can’t see the dignified Dr. Mohler kneeling down, washing the feet of prisoners who are female and Muslim. He doesn’t roll that way.
    Mohler should hang out with Francis for a season which would cure him of any dreams of world domination big time.
    Such a shame he can’t seem to do anything about sex abuse in the RC church

    He and we have done quite a bit. We are working very hard to address the problem, and even secular media admit we are making huge strides.

    That’s good to hear. I think anyone can have bad actors, it’s what the leadership does in response – does it protect the people or the staff/priest, that tells the tale.


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    Max wrote:

    how would a local congregation go about getting relief in nasty situations if congregational governance does not exist in the case of elder-rule polity? In such churches, the pew has no say in establishing policies to cover these things.

    This is precisely why reformed church polity, i.e. elder led, does not work well in autonomous church settings. Elder led churches need an extra-congregational level of accountability in order to prevent the abuse of power and the slide to oligarchy.

    It is a sad day when Hayek’s “The Road to Serfdom” can now be applied to many churches in America.


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    Christiane wrote:

    No way HEADLESS, for some reason I can’t see the dignified Dr. Mohler kneeling down, washing the feet of prisoners who are female and Muslim. He doesn’t roll that way.

    Try TBN. They put on shows like that all the time. Were there cameras There? Ask yourself why. For what reason?

    http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2016/03/24/pope-francis-washes-feet-of-refugees-on-holy-thursday/


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    elastigirl wrote:

    @ Christiane:

    “Russell Moore, current president of ERLC, is a highly visible and outspoken critic of moral decay in the country, but not in the church.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    with a statement like that, you as a common-sensed human being are qualified to judge it hypocritical and laughable. broken, indeed.

    I think Max said it.


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    Burwell wrote:

    It is a sad day when Hayek’s “The Road to Serfdom” can now be applied to many churches in America.

    Oh my. I didn’t think of that. You are spot on!


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    siteseer wrote:

    Gudbrand wrote:

    This blog was written well over a week ago by one of the teens at FBCRM. The hurt and scarring is deep and affects all ages.

    https://www.theodysseyonline.com/didnt-fit-in-at-youth-group

    I’m so sorry to hear of kids being subjected to all that rot. Sheesh. But what a good head she has on her shoulders!

    Did you pick up on the Islamicesque teaching she was subjected to that her body, her existence temps men? The separation of the genders.

    Get your teen girls out of those places! They are valuable precious daughters of a King! They are not to be treated as the blame for lusting boys. Why not teach them to value themselves, instead?

    Yes, she gets it. I hope the other girls did, too. But it is still damaging when the adults are making these ideas front and center.


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    Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    He and we have done quite a bit. We are working very hard to address the problem, and even secular media admit we are making huge strides.

    How would people know? The same top down polity exists. The same structure is in place. The same bureaucracy and layers. The same -no women priests. No married priests.

    Can priests no longer be alone with children? Is that a rule now that everyone is aware of?


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    @ Rose:
    That sounds like most mega church staffs! It is uncanny. You describe it well.

    People who stay in those small cult kingdomlike places do become emotionally stunted. As a friend of mine said, the men tend to have the emotional development of a high school freshman male. They can project themselves as very mature one minute and the next minute act like they are 12 when confronted with something they don’t like. Usually in private.

    And worse, these are exactly the type of people you should never go to for counsel. On anything! Yet, they are held up as paragon’s simply because of a title and the kingdom they are in. They don’t live in the real world.

    In places like that there are lots of Unwritten rules. And these unwritten rules are given a spiritual slant! It is a form of control.

    And they are all about the inner ring. (CS Lewis)


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    @ Lydia:

    Yes, it seems to be a political statement.

    If one looks at the gospel story of just what Jesus did, he did not wash the feet of the masses. He preached to and fed and healed the masses, but he washed the feet of those who were about to ‘inherit’ the message-the inner circle of what was to become apostles and leaders and He taught that the leadership ought to be servants of each other. ‘As I have washed your feet so you ought to wash one another’s other’s feet’. One another it says.

    Should that symbolism be expanded to the entire membership of the body of Christ? I really don’t see why not, but that is an expansion of the symbolism-justified expansion in my opinion but not exactly what went on back in Jerusalem at the time.

    But should that symbolism of yes, ‘servant leadership,’ be extended to the unbelieving world? Is the church the servant of the world in the same sense in which Jesus washed the feet of the disciples? Well, it depends on how one views the issue of the church in the world, and here comes a mixture of religion and politics perhaps, or so it certainly appears.

    Personally, I think that to stretch that symbolism that far weakens and perhaps even totally misses the message of Jesus in what He actually did and said at the time. But then I used to be a Free Will Baptist and they practice the washing of the saint’s feet at the time of the communion service. The understanding of this can be quite different when seen from the angle of a different perspective.

    I suppose we all notice the basic philosophical differences not only between major christian traditions but also between various ideologies within each of the major christian traditions. We need not go our separate ways because of this but neither should we fail to see the trajectories of the various understandings of things.


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    siteseer wrote:

    BL, once again, your post is full of insight- it is an exact parallel.

    Thanks – it really was a light-bulb moment for me.

    In the same way that wives are treated as children in their patriarchal view, so they treat the churches they lead – children forever, never to mature. With all and everything to them, and the churches existing only to serve their purpose, vision & mission.


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    Well stated, @Rose. All the rules that you know or don’t know kept us at FBCRM nervous just walking in the door – always fearing what was next or what charge might be brought against us, or when we might be ordered in to a pasotor’s office to be ranted at! Freedom from that now is wonderful!


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    Lydia wrote:

    Get your teen girls out of those places! … They are not to be treated as the blame for lusting boys.

    Absolutely! That is just craziness. I cannot even imagine having all the teen girl issues and insecurities, and adding this church nonsense on top of it! Poor girls. And it doesn’t help the boys either.


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    Lydia wrote:

    Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    He and we have done quite a bit. We are working very hard to address the problem, and even secular media admit we are making huge strides.

    How would people know? The same top down polity exists. The same structure is in place. The same bureaucracy and layers. The same -no women priests. No married priests.

    Can priests no longer be alone with children? Is that a rule now that everyone is aware of?

    Goodness. Where to begin?

    *** We have a Zero Tolerance Policy, adopted by the US bishops some years ago in the wake of the Abuse Scandal. All Catholic clergy are mandatory reporters. I have seen this in action in my own diocese, where the diocesan chancery proactively alerted the police to a case they had discovered — even though the accuser himself had not yet officially come forward. The priest in question was immediately arrested.
    *** Everyone who works in lay ministry has to go through the Protecting God’s Children program. I’ve been through it. It’s not perfect, and it won’t stop manipulators and liars, but it’s a heck of a lot better than nothing, which is what most churches have.
    *** Several years ago, the US Bishops commissioned a totally independent study by a secular institution — the John Jay College of Criminal Justice. Again, NO other church has done this. The exhaustive John Jay Study found that about 4% of US Catholic priests had been “credibly accused” of sex abuse over a 40-year period, with most cases dating to the ’60s, ’70s, and ’80s IIRC. Four percent is 4 percent too many, but it hardly fits the popular stereotype of rampant abuse committed by huge hordes of pedophile priests, with offenders in every rectory. (Four percent is also about the same percentage as in other communions, across the board. Again, NO excuse!! Just putting it in perspective.)
    *** “Reconciliation rooms” (for Confession) have big honkin’ glass windows. Visit any Catholic church in Louisville if you don;t believe me.
    *** No, priests are not typically alone with children. If for no other reason…do you think the Church wants more lawsuits? And today’s parents are not stupid. The era of sleepovers at the rectory is over, over, over.
    *** This article is a few years old, but it shows the trajectory: http://www.catholicnews.com/services/englishnews/2013/annual-audit-shows-number-of-abuse-allegations-in-church-dropped-in-2012.cfm

    At the same time, speaking anecdotally: Every other day our local news media carry stories about evangelical pastors caught in sex abuse. But the stories are usually buried in the back pages, and, because evangelicalism itself is so fragmented, the news often flies under the radar. Even the Orthodox fly under the radar. (Google the Greek Orthodox monastery in Astoria, New York, that imported young Ukrainian novices for the express purpose of molesting them. Bet you didn’t hear about that on the evening news or read about it in the Boston Globe!)

    But just because you don’t hear about abuses in other settings, that doesn’t mean they don’t happen. It just means they are under-reported.

    The Catholic Church is the 800-lb. gorilla. Everything we do (especially if it’s negative) gets blared across news media and trumpeted in the streets. But seriously…if you think this means we are worse than everyone else, then you must not believe in Original Sin, which (last time I checked) was a universal affliction, not just a Catholic one.

    America has a long history of lurid anti-Catholic bigotry, much of which has focused on the myth that Catholics are worse sinners than all other Christians. (E.g., the notorious Maria Monk case in the 19th century.) But the reality is that ALL churches and communions — not to mention families, schools, and Scout troops — have sex-abuse issues. The Catholic abuse scandal was horrible beyond belief, and no Catholic I know would dream of justifying it. But no, it was not unique to Catholics. And yes, we *are* actively addressing it — which, again, is a heck of a lot more than many other churches are doing.

    Can the measures we are trying to implement prevent abuse from ever happening? No. Are there still bad bishops out there? Yes. We have nearly 70 million members in America alone and 1.3 billion worldwide. Policing a church that large is like herding cats. We are trying, but we are not there yet. Still, we *are* trying, and our efforts have had some effect.

    By the way…what does “no married priests” have to do with it? Most sex abusers, religious and otherwise, are married or at least non-celibate. If celibacy were the issue, then we wouldn’t have so many public school teachers involved in sex abuse of minors. 😉


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    Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    By the way…what does “no married priests” have to do with it? Most sex abusers, religious and otherwise, are married or at least non-celibate. If celibacy were the issue, then we wouldn’t have so many public school teachers involved in sex abuse of minors.

    You are 100% correct. Celibacy has nothing to do with pedophilia. As I have often said, if a priest (or unmarried pastor) wished to have sex outside of celibacy, a normal priest or pastor would seek sex with someone their own age. No one in their right minds would say “Gee, I need to have a sexual relationship. A 3 yo child seems like a good choice.”


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    Until the Christian leaders actually show oncer about child sex abuse when it involves their BFFs, their words ring hollow to me.


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    What is the bombshell you told us about yesterday? @ dee:


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    @ Catholic Gate-Crasher:

    I agree. The RCC has made great strides in this area. Would that all of protestantism could say the same.

    And no, celibacy does not cause child sex abuse. You are quite right about that. If it did, then Paul was in error in recommending celibacy as a life style. Bible toting protestants can surely see that.


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    @ Catholic Gate-Crasher:
    Most pedophiles have 50-100 victims before caught.

    I should have been more clear. The “married” comment was not in relation to pedophilia but in relation to a lack of change in polity and rules. Just like no women priests.

    I think a lot has been done as you relate. I just think promoting Catholicism here is getting old. I have been around Catholic evangelists before.

    Hug is Catholic and doesn’t seem to need to evangelize for it. You come off defensive as if the Catholic Church has been abused and must be defended.

    Like SGM, it happened. People are going to talk about it. They are going to question the new rules in place to protect children. This is a good thing. Such heinous barbarity by those representing our Lord toward children should never be forgotten.

    You shouldn’t be offended. Like the SBC, The Catholic Church is not Jesus Christ.


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    To hear of the pain suffered by many here at the hands of those that should be walking beside them in their faith journey grieves me. Grace and peace to those of you who who have experienced such abuse.


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    @ okrapod:
    Must be my mega church days coming out but I think it wise to be skeptical of such photo ops whether it is the Pope or Al Mohler or Pat Robertson.

    Do people understand how easy it is to manufacture an image these days? Optics. It is all about optics.

    When one buys into it lock stock and barrel and promotes it to others as proof of something, it is wise to be skeptical.

    We don’t know these people personally. We can’t. It is best not to elevate them too much. We are such a celebrity/guru culture! Or at least be free enough to question such things without it being a mortal sin or taken as a personal insult. I wish I had realized this 20 years ago concerning mega church pastors and other gurus. If we agree with them doctrinally or politically, we tend to elevate them in ways not healthy. Not wise.


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    Burwell wrote:

    This is precisely why reformed church polity, i.e. elder led, does not work well in autonomous church settings.

    Especially in churches where the pastor and his “elders” are in their 30s! When the youth group is running things, it is a recipe for disaster. Not many 30-somethings have the spiritual maturity to lead a church. SBC planted 1,000 new churches last year – most led by YRR pastors fresh out of seminary (at least in my area) … think about it!


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    dee wrote:

    Dan wrote:
    Deceptive is one of the kinder words to describe Darville. He had a plan from the beginning. As it became obvious that it was not going to become a reality he became angrier, showing contempt and hostility toward those who opposed him
    Good comment. You’ll find the post tomorrow quite interesting.

    I’ve checked off and on since midnight for this post! So interested to read it.


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    Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    if you think this means we are worse than everyone else, then you must not believe in Original Sin

    I’m glad to hear your church has implemented new measures of protection and they do sound promising, but I wanted to point to this. I do not agree that ‘original sin’ is what makes one church more dangerous than another. As I mentioned, I think bad actors can pop up anywhere (maybe even in equal numbers), however it is the way the SYSTEM deals with it that makes one church worse than the other. The catholic church was burying the problem. That was a system issue and system changes can help dramatically.

    A bad actor is terrible. A church that supports them, moves them around to be bad actors elsewhere, or keeps the victims quiet? They cause more problems by not dealing with it. I am not just talking about the catholic church here obviously.


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    Rose wrote:

    They were the most unfriendly people I have ever met in my life.

    Another common characteristic among the New Calvinist crowd. They shun folks without officially shunning them. Not a friendly crowd at all; I suppose its their superior air of being chosen and you’re not.

    Thanks Rose for giving us an insider’s perspective of SEBTS. You confirm what we’ve been concerned about at SBC seminaries which have surrendered to New Calvinism.

    Rose wrote:

    SEBTS is a place of double speak, things going on under the surface, very money and connection driven, lots of nepotism, the women there are generally very socially manipulative (you have to be in order to operate as a female in that world.) It’s not objective, and it’s definitely celebrity culture driven while they pretend they’re not. It’s a very confining non-free place where everyone talks like robots. It’s a seriously creepy place … very cult-like.

    And this is the environment producing future SBC preachers?!! No fruit of the Spirit evident in that description of the place!


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    Lydia wrote:

    Must be my mega church days coming out but I think it wise to be skeptical of such photo ops whether it is the Pope or Al Mohler or Pat Robertson.

    I do think this is a double edged sword, though. IF you do a photo op, people may suspect its fake. If you do something in the quiet, people think you do nothing. Obviously the second option is the more biblical, though.


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    Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    America has a long history of lurid anti-Catholic bigotry, much of which has focused on the myth that Catholics are worse sinners than all other Christians. (E.

    What a strange thing to say. Just for clarification, the city I grew up in has a huge Catholic population. That means I played with them in the neighborhood and went to school with them everyday. It just wasn’t a big deal. As a teen I used to go to Catholic picnics with my friends.

    I can hardly believe you played the bigotry card.


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    @ Lea:
    I guess I am at the place where i ask: What does it matter what people think? I fear this plays into the notion our gurus must perform for us. Why do we have such distant gurus in the first place? Why do we need them? Why is that the normal? These are philosophical questions I ask myself as I get older and have seen so much spuritual destruction. (Sad face)

    Pope Francis can’t save us. Al Mohler can’t save us. Only Jesus Christ can. He is our model for humanity.


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    Lydia wrote:

    I guess I am at the place where i ask: What does it matter what people think?

    It does if you’re a politician. Maybe my year in DC shaped my thinking on this.

    Religious leaders shouldn’t be politicians…but they are.


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    @ Lea:

    I should say years in dc. Oh for an edit function!


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    Stay tuned on Wednesday when Deb will drop a bombshell on this situation. She came across some information today that we think will bring much clarity to this situation!

    May we be so bold to ask?….when is the” bombshell” going to drop? Some of us can’t put our computers down, afraid we may miss something.


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    Lydia wrote:

    Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    America has a long history of lurid anti-Catholic bigotry, much of which has focused on the myth that Catholics are worse sinners than all other Christians. (E.

    What a strange thing to say. Just for clarification, the city I grew up in has a huge Catholic population. That means I played with them in the neighborhood and went to school with them everyday. It just wasn’t a big deal. As a teen I used to go to Catholic picnics with my friends.

    I can hardly believe you played the bigotry card.

    I believe CGC was talking about ‘historically’. It is quite true that there was anti-Catholic bigotry in US history, some of it quite lurid. It was wrapped up with anti-immigrant sentiment as well.

    Not much of it today, outside of Jack Chick tracts (‘lurid’ barely describes them – really nasty stuff). Though you can certainly find plenty of fundagelical websites that describe the RCC as ‘filthy papists’, ‘the whore of Babylon’, etc. ad nauseam.

    But by the 60’s or so, the rank mainstream bigotry had mostly played itself out. It was a big deal, though, when JFK was elected president. There was doubt in the party whether a Roman Catholic could be elected president, and of course the opposition stirred up all kinds of “he’ll take orders from the Pope – the US will be ruled from Rome!” nonsense.

    CGC had a valid point, IMO.


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    @ Lydia:

    The RCC is under no obligation to change it’s internal doctrines and policies regarding the role of women in the church or regarding celibacy to please some protestants. That is an unfair demand. They are within their rights under their polities and doctrines and disciplines to come to their own conclusions in these areas. They are not breaking the law, they have biblical reasons as well as reasons based on their own disciplines and policies, and it is none of anybody else’s business.

    But yes, blatant proselytizing gets very old very quickly regardless of who does it. It seems to be based on the assumption that the target audience is ignorant of ‘the facts’ and if they only knew they would convert tomorrow. Nobody here is that ignorant. At least I certainly am not and neither have I identified anybody else here who is oblivious in any way.

    This comment has been from a protestant.


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    Burwell wrote:

    This is precisely why reformed church polity, i.e. elder led, does not work well in autonomous church settings. Elder led churches need an extra-congregational level of accountability in order to prevent the abuse of power

    Excellent point!


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    Watchman on the wall wrote:

    Stay tuned on Wednesday when Deb will drop a bombshell on this situation. She came across some information today that we think will bring much clarity to this situation!

    May we be so bold to ask?….when is the” bombshell” going to drop? Some of us can’t put our computers down, afraid we may miss something.

    I’m with you! Checking constantly!!


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    siteseer wrote:

    bewbs

    Interesting spelling. 😉


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    Catherine wrote:

    Watchman on the wall wrote:

    Stay tuned on Wednesday when Deb will drop a bombshell on this situation. She came across some information today that we think will bring much clarity to this situation!

    May we be so bold to ask?….when is the” bombshell” going to drop? Some of us can’t put our computers down, afraid we may miss something.

    I’m with you! Checking constantly!!

    The Wednesday entry is usually posted in the evening, sometimes quite late in the evening. The earliest I can seem to recall is around 5:30, but usually it’s later.


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    deb wrote:

    siteseer wrote:

    bewbs

    Interesting spelling.

    I confess, that’s a new one on me!


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    roebuck wrote:

    The Wednesday entry is usually posted in the evening, sometimes quite late in the evening. The earliest I can seem to recall is around 5:30, but usually it’s later.

    Quite late is right. What can I say? I can be a procrastinator, and I have found that I can concentrate best when the house is quiet late at night.

    I've gotten an earlier start than usual and will try to go to bed at a decent hour tonight. 🙂


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    Thanks! Will tells friends who are waiting! @ roebuck:


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    Lydia, with all due respect: “You come off defensive” sounds an awful lot like “I’m not being critical; *you’re* just being too sensitive.”

    Your remark was needlessly provocative IMHO. Not to mention inaccurate. I was simply responding to that. “Defensiveness” has nothing to do with it. Defending against inaccuracies? Yep. Defending is not the same thing as defensive. 😀

    And no, I am not HUG. So, in the immortal words of Nathan Detroit in *Guys and Dolls*: “Sue me.”


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    Lea wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    I guess I am at the place where i ask: What does it matter what people think?

    It does if you’re a politician. Maybe my year in DC shaped my thinking on this.

    Religious leaders shouldn’t be politicians…but they are.

    Oh yes. Personally I would prefer honest unattractive non charismatic bean counters in Congress and the white house. But I tend to be alone in this thinking so those types could never be elected. :o(


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    @ Catherine:

    I am working on the outline of the post right now. It takes some time to put everything together. I'll try to have it up in the early evening.

    I believe the information I am putting together in today's post will shed more light on what has befallen FBCRM.


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    And I am certainly not “proselytizing.” Defending is not the same thing as proselytizing. I am a guest here at the Deebs’ sufferance. I realize that most folks here come from a Baptist tradition; I’m not trying to convert anyone from that or from anything else, for that matter. I live in the Bible Belt, in the midst of many Baptists, with whom I work and recreate and even fellowship.

    But when people lob charges or make sweeping generalizations that I know are inaccurate, I do respond. Again, I do not see how this constitutes proselytizing. I am simply responding to what you and several others have said. Am I not allowed to respond to what I perceive as inaccuracies?

    My suggestion: Perhaps we should move this discussion to that general thread I keep hearing about. I do not want to derail this thread with a “your church is worse than mine, neener-neener” debate. Sound like a plan?


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    Thank you! Simply can’t wait! @ Deb:


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    @ okrapod:
    Is it wrong to question it? The SBC is under no obligation to change the BFM policy on no women preachers, either. I still question the policy even though I am no longer in the SBC. Is that wrong? I guess I am confused.

    I am a big proponent of the separation of church and state. The “denominations” can organize themselves any way they want that does not harm or break the law. These are voluntary associations.

    I am not clear where I presented it as a demand or as a Protestant…which I am not. I am way too libertarian for that!


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    Deb wrote:

    and will try to go to bed at a decent hour tonight. 🙂

    …while the rest of us stay up late reading!! Appreciate everything you are doing to shed light into dark corner, particularly since these issues are part of a pattern.


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    @ FW Rez:

    My patient husband thinks I am reliving my college years – late nights and all…

    There's so much going on during the day that distracts me. 🙂


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    @ Catherine:

    I believe it will be eye-opening to say the least, so I'd better get on with it or it will be another late night…


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    @ Catholic Gate-Crasher:
    Why do you feel the need to defend an institution? Why is that so personal to you? Jesus Christ transcends all if it: The SBC. The Catholic Church. The Methodists. The Episcopalians. And so on.

    It is an honest question.


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Catholic Gate-Crasher:
    Why do you feel the need to defend an institution? Why is that so personal to you? Jesus Christ transcends all if it: The SBC. The Catholic Church. The Methodists. The Episcopalians. And so on.

    It is an honest question.

    Thanks, Lydia. I will give an honest answer.

    I do not see the Catholic Church as “an institution.” I see it as the place where I receive the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. That means everything in the world to me.


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    Lydia wrote:

    defend an institution?

    Jesus came to redeem and work through individuals, not institutions! As you note, Jesus does indeed transcend organized religion. The Christian experience should be about relationship, not religion. It’s OK to be religious as long as you don’t miss Jesus in your journey. If we don’t keep the Main thing the main thing, we will lose what we think we have!


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    Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    And I am certainly not “proselytizing.” Defending is not the same thing as proselytizing.

    Indeed you are not, but there have been those here who did. One was a man not too long ago who converted from Anglican? Episcopalian? to RCC, became a catechist, and then set forth in what seemed to be as ugly a manner as possible to preach his conclusions whether anybody wanted to hear it or not. Again and again and again. That is one example. There have been other but somewhat less egregious cases and not all of them catholic. I did not mean to reference you, and in fact I thought it was rather safe to reply to Lydia who was talking to you since it should be obvious to all here that you are not one of the offenders.

    Well, I guess I blew that. I hope I have now corrected that.

    And yes people have not only a right but an obligation to defend themselves, their beliefs and their associations. I admire that in what you say; you do it well IMO.


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    I hope this thread doesn't get derailed… 🙁 

    Please, please stick with the topic at hand.  Those who have been deeply affected by what happened at FBCRM (and who are new here) shouldn't be subjected to an unrelated stream of comments.  Please either stop the back and forth about denoms or take it to the Open Discussion page.

    I am trying to write the post, and Dee is busy with a Hospice visit.  Thanks for your cooperation. 😉


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    @ Deb:
    Consider it done on my end.


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    Deb wrote:

    I hope this thread doesn’t get derailed…   I am really hoping commenters will stick with the topic at hand.  Those who have been deeply affected by what happened at FBCRM (and who are new here) shouldn’t be subjected to an unrelated stream of comments.  Please either stop the back and forth about denoms or take it to the Open Discussion page.

    Thanks for your cooperation.

    Yes, please!


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    On my end as well. Thanks!

    And thank you, okrapod. I apologize for misunderstanding.


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    Deb wrote:

    I hope this thread doesn’t get derailed…  

    Please, please stick with the topic at hand.  Those who have been deeply affected by what happened at FBCRM (and who are new here) shouldn’t be subjected to an unrelated stream of comments.  Please either stop the back and forth about denoms or take it to the Open Discussion page.

    I am trying to write the post, and Dee is busy with a Hospice visit.  Thanks for your cooperation.

    FBC people…let’s keep our mouths shut until Deb gives us our post. We are very well trained in keeping our mouth shut.


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    Thanks for your cooperation! Y'all know we love ya! I REALLY want to get this post done soon and don't have time to monitor the comments closely.


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    @ Watchman on the wall:

    My remark was not directed at those from FBCRM, as you can tell from the recent comments.

    Please carry on with the topic at hand…


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    Burwell wrote:

    It is a sad day when Hayek’s “The Road to Serfdom” can now be applied to many churches in America.

    Exactly. When the will of a small minority is imposed upon a people (e.g. Calvinization of the SBC), we are on that road.

    Here’s a simple test I came up with to determine if a YRR seminary student is ready to graduate and take up his part in the reformed movement:

    Please simply answer Yes or No to the following questions, without commentary:

    (1) Do you think more highly of yourself than you ought? (Romans 12:3)

    (2) Do you have aspirations to be first in all that you do? (Matthew 19:30)

    (3) In your ministry, would you teach as doctrines the precepts of men – for example, those of John Calvin? (Matthew 15:9)

    If you answered “Yes” to all of the above, you are ready to Calvinize the American church!


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    Deb wrote:

    FBC people…let’s keep our mouths shut until Deb gives us our post. We are very well trained in keeping our mouth shut.

    I don’t know what the ‘bombshell’ is about and will wait semi-patiently, however I would love to hear more from you guys! Do you know anything about the youth program changes? That poor girls blog post broke my heart.


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    @ Deb:

    I’ll be good too Deb. I promise. Honest injun!


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    @ Lea:

    That one was supposed to go to Watchman on the Wall. Whoops!


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Jeffrey Chalmers:
    I mentioned Knight because of his public chair throwing. I am not a sports fan. At all. Sportsmanship is a thing of the past.

    He really heaved that thing, I remember watching the chair throw incident on the nightly news back in high school. On the whole, though, having read some stuff here and there about Knight, he may be is all ugly on the outside, gruff, a jerk, but supposedly he did a lot over the years for a lot of people and a lot of it behind-the-scenes, and allegedly was one of the few major coaches who took a passionate interest in the education of his players. Sounds like a cruel shell masking a relatively kind guy–seems to be a perfect photographic negative image of the average megachurch leader, climber, schemer or their legion of defenders; they’re all sweet on the outside, but tend to be downright hateful when you get beneath the veneer.


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    Burwell wrote:

    Elder led churches need an extra-congregational level of accountability in order to prevent the abuse of power and the slide to oligarchy. It is a sad day when Hayek’s “The Road to Serfdom” can now be applied to many churches in America.

    Burwell, you got me thinking this morning along this line. It’s been said that SBC’s New Calvinists are having such easy pickins’ in Calvinizing the largest non-Calvinist Protestant denomination in America because of widespread apathy in SBC pews. Just as easy to sway, are the minds of young seminary students who become ensnared by reformed indoctrination.

    Here’s a line from Hayek in his book section on “Why the Worst Get on Top”:

    “He must gain the support of the docile and gullible, who have no strong convictions of their own but are ready to accept a ready-made system of values if it is only drummed into their ears sufficiently loudly and frequently.”

    Yep, that’s why the worst are now sitting on the pinnacle of the SBC pyramid.


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    Exactly! Missing the grace of God is bitterness. We can review the past to try to make sense of it and improve things without ultimately missing grace. The “bitter” card is as thought-stopping spiritually abusive as “judge not”.

    @ Divorce Minister:


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    You are very appreciated for what you are doing! @ Deb:


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    Lea wrote:

    Do you know anything about the youth program changes? That poor girls blog post broke my heart.

    Hi LEA,
    I found that comment about what that child had been through to be really disturbing. I know that eleven year old girls are very sensitive anyway, having taught sixth-graders for well over a decade both in public and in parochial schools, in the inner-city and in suburban settings … girls are self-conscious and sensitive at that age because they are transitioning from pre-teen into the teen years, and they don’t need ‘shaming’ especially at the hands of those who supposedly represent Our Lord and His teaching.
    It’s bad enough for neo-cal stealth operations with adult faith communities, but working out on CHILDREN???? That is definitely a form of abuse of a young girl at a very sensitive age. Sad is not the word for it. And WHY? Does the ‘shaming’ hope to further some patriarchal purpose of putting women in their place??? Of degrading them? Of making them super-conscious of their natural physical gifts that are developing in accordance with a growth spurt at this extemely important transition time for a healthy young girl??? I could go on and on, but that was a huge red light that something is being done that is heart-breakingly wrong and destructive to innocent children. Kyrie Eleison!


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    And that said, I’m honestly not convinced God judges bitterness in hurting people the way the current evangelical church does. It’s like anger or other negative emotions in my book-we go through periods of them and to be healthy can’t stay stuck. But to judge someone processing pain is only going to compound the feelings-it’s just counterproductive. I wish people read the Psalms more and the evangelical blogs less…

    Melody wrote:

    Exactly! Missing the grace of God is bitterness. We can review the past to try to make sense of it and improve things without ultimately missing grace. The “bitter” card is as thought-stopping spiritually abusive as “judge not”.

    @ Divorce Minister:


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    Christiane wrote:

    And WHY? Does the ‘shaming’ hope to further some patriarchal purpose of putting women in their place??? Of degrading them? Of making them super-conscious of their natural physical gifts

    You know, I might have thought this was overly ‘feminist’ (ooh scary!) before, but I am beginning to think they really ARE afraid of the power of women. This kind of power is the power of attraction, I guess? The sexual power. They are doing everything they can to convince these girls and women that they are not allowed to have power over men in any sphere but especially church and I can’t think of any reasons that aren’t purely rooted in selfishness.

    They are trying to teach them that they are not allowed to have sexual power. The power to say no. The power to speak to their husbands, and use reasoning to persuade. They try to shut everything down by yelling Submit! Feminist! Gospel!

    It’s wrong. It’s doing real damage and it needs to be called out.


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    K.D. wrote:

    Rose wrote:
    As a former female student at Southeastern…let me tell you that SEBTS is a place of double speak, things going on under the surface, very money and connection driven, lots of nepotism, the women there are generally very socially manipulative (you have to be in order to operate as a female in that world.) It’s not objective, and it’s definitely celebrity culture driven while they pretend they’re not. It’s a very confining non-free place where everyone talks like robots. It’s a seriously creepy place. I don’t think I’m eager rating when I say it is very cult-like. Lots of the men at SEBTS and in the surrounding SBC churches have a really low emotional IQ. What’s being said often doesn’t match what’s actually happening. I really think it’s a business front disquised as a seminary. They were the most unfriendly people I have ever met in my life. People seemed miserable and stunted while pretending and saying everything was great, etc.
    Oh my…..Oh my goodness…..you hit the nail the nail on the head….this how I saw people when I was at SWBTS in Ft. Worth…..wow…..I thought it was just my experience.

    What was that verse about you’ll know them by their fruit?


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    Max wrote:

    Here’s a line from Hayek in his book section on “Why the Worst Get on Top”:

    “He must gain the support of the docile and gullible, who have no strong convictions of their own but are ready to accept a ready-made system of values if it is only drummed into their ears sufficiently loudly and frequently.”

    Bingo! I had not thought of that book in years. I will have to reread it.


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    @ Lea:

    By all means, please continue the discussion about FBCRM and how the 'girls' were treated. I am very interested.


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    Lydia wrote:

    I had not thought of that book in years. I will have to reread it.

    There’s an online Readers Digest condensed version of Hayek’s “The Road to Serfdom” for us old people who are reading more to understand and challenge the flood of New Calvinism. (not implying that you’re old, of course, dear Lydia)


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    Lea wrote:

    It’s wrong. It’s doing real damage and it needs to be called out.

    AMEN.
    any attempt to shame the natural human dignity of a young woman is wrong … and that slices both ways: the abuse takes two forms which are surprisingly the SAME, when you think about it:

    1. A young girl who is made to be molested at a young age, possibly sexually abused by a family member and who goes on to become a sex-object as a run-away who is taken up by a pimp and marketed as a sex-slave …. what begins with shaming confuses the child and ends in ‘acting out’ or in replaying the tragedy hopefully looking for some kind of pitiful acceptance or some attention that mimics the love these girls so desperately need

    2. A young girl who is made to be molested at a young age, possibly sexually abused by a family member and who goes on to become a sex-object in the form of a Botkin-style Daughter of The House where the girls are overly dressed ‘modestly’ in cover-up clothing and YET may have their very long hair curled and styled in the manner that the preacher Gothard thought attractive on girls and women. So strange the manipulation, together with the shaming …. as the objectification of a young woman into a ‘submissive’, ‘you can’t say no to sex with your husband’ ….
    (sigh) the rest of the description gets too grim for me to continue.

    The two comparisons both tell stories of terrible attacks on the dignity of the human person,
    not just the female victims, but also the male perpetrators who participate in the subjugation, shaming, and objectification of these precious young women at a time when they are vulnerable ….

    Abuse of women is satanic. In whatever form it propagates itself.
    It’s painful to see ANY expression of it.


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    __

    Calvinistas Obfuscate, Finesse, Dart And Weave? –“Smoking-Out A Possible Calvinistic Pastor In Your Church, Perhaps?” [1]

    Chech for possible red flags, i.e. things to be on the look out for:

    · Lack of passion in the public invitations for the lost to repent and receive Jesus as Lord and Savior or no gospel invitation is extended.

    · Lack of salvation sermons or evangelistic (revival) preaching.

    · Use of the ESV study Bible

    · Lack of participation with other churches in evangelistic campaigns in their city, county, or region.

    · Adding other belief statements or confessions to what their church believers, such as 1st London Baptist Confession (1689), 2nd London Baptist Confession (1644), New Hampshire Confession, and Abstract Principles.

    · Moving the church to become under Elder Rule.

    · Focused on creating the “true” church.

    · Strict Church discipline is sought to grow the church down to the “true” church. Most SBC congregations can use a dose of church discipline; however, what is the true motive? Is it to help the straying Christian or to legalistically bring about the “true” church?

    · Member of the Founders Movement and attends their annual meeting.

    · Look for the men they quote in their sermons; do they mainly quote Calvinists such as John Piper, R. C. Sproul, James White, Jonathan Edwards and others?

    · They will call other Calvinists to join them on their church staff as they reform the church.

    · They will methodically employ a strategy of “converting” members to the Doctrines of Sovereign Graces or Reformed Doctrine. As the circle enlarges, the movement grows bolder within the fellowship.

    · Tendency toward a highly logical systematic theology where all the questions about life and God have answers and fit nearly and nicely in a theological box.

    · They love to write and blog about their reform theology and can form a theological swarm on the internet “blogging” against anyone who speaks or writes against their reform theology.

    · Tendency to use their pastoral authority against any member that questions their reform theology or their direction.

    · Tendency to be evasive about their theology during the pastor search process. They will say things like: “I believe and preach the historic doctrines of Southern Baptists just like many of the great Baptist preaches or the past.” Many laymen will be satisfied in hearing the statement, “I believe and preach the Bible”. Without more intense questioning, the committee will not be fulfilling the sacred duty their church entrusted to them.

    Be on the look-out for Theological noted differences between Traditional Southern Baptist and Extreme Calvinists

    ‘Concerning the Sovereignty of God and Predestination’

    Traditional Southern Baptists and Calvinists agree that God is sovereign. Traditional Baptists hold to a belief that God exercises His sovereignty in which those created in His image have the God-given gift and capacity to make real spiritual and moral choices. Man has this freedom because God initially gave it to him; therefore, God takes the initiative in all his acts, even in salvation.

    Traditional Baptists believe our sovereign God has chosen to provide for forgiveness and salvation through Jesus Christ and it is for all who will accept his offer of grace through repentance and faith. Extreme Calvinists however, believe that God has decided in advance to save particular people and to damn the non-elect.

    Some extreme Calvinists translate John 3:26 as, “For God so loved the elect, that he gave his only begotten Son….

    Traditional Baptists believe Election is God’s initiative in salvation and God has an eternal plan for mankind. God has always sought the sinner. He sent Jesus to make salvation possible and through various spiritual agencies (the Word of God, preaching, the work of the Holy Spirit, the work of the Church, the gifts of the Spirit), he calls (draws) men to salvation.

    ‘Concerning God’s Knowledge’

    Traditional Baptists believe in an all knowing God, but they are not determinists, because they do not believe God has planned everything that happens. Through His eternal foreknowledge, He knows what is going to happen, but He doesn’t override man’s freewill.

    ‘Concerning Freedom’ 

    Traditional Baptists believe in a creator God that made man in His image and they are free moral agents. The consistent Biblical appeal for man to repent, believe, receive, etc. presumes the fact that man must make a choice. Paul said, “Knowing therefore the fear of the Lord, we persuade men” (II Cor. 5:11). If man was not free to make moral decisions, then why would Paul seek to persuade? Paul said concerning Israel, “Brethren, my heart’s desire and my supplication to God is for them, that they may be saved” (Rom. 10:1). Why would Paul submit himself to continual travel, danger, and suffering, if their destiny was already fixed before the foundation of the world?

    ‘Concerning Sin’ 

    Traditional Baptists believe we are made in God’s image and all have sinned and fall short of God’s glory. Mankind is totally depraved due to sin; every area of our life has been corrupted by sin.

    Extreme Calvinists believe in man’s total inability to see, hear, and respond to the truth. They believe that a person has to be regenerated (born-again) before they even believe. They believe a spiritually dead man can’t hear or see or respond.

    Traditional Baptists believe while we were dead in our sins, we are still able to hear, understand, and respond to the gospel by repenting of our sins and trusting Jesus as Lord and Savior. Traditional Baptists believe saving faith comes by hearing God’s Word as they Holy Spirit brings conviction of sin and convincing the lost person of their need for receiving God’s gift of salvation through Jesus Christ.

    ‘Concerning Grace’

    Traditional Baptists believe in a Holy God that freely offers His grace and salvation to all people as they hear the good news and through the work of the Holy Spirit they either accept God’s offer or reject it. Extreme Calvinists believe that an irresistible grace brings salvation only to the elect. Traditional Baptists believe God’s Word teaches that God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34).

    Traditional Baptists believe in a God that is love and this motivates their desire for the maximum number of souls to be saved (II Pet. 3:9).
    __
    [1] http://theaquilareport.com/documents-related-to-how-to-smoke-out-a-calvinistic-pastor-in-your-church/


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    Sopwith wrote:

    What utter contempt must these New Fangled Calvinists have for the non-Calvinist element of the body of Christ; repetitively (which means they have a history of) permitting and promoting corrupt abusive pastors, mis-appropriating churches, pushing the un-biblical five points of Calvinism –by stealth.

    From Hayek’s “The Road to Serfdom”:

    “Advancement within a totalitarian group or party depends largely on a willingness to do immoral things. The principle that the end justifies the means, which in individualist ethics is regarded as the denial of all morals, in collectivist ethics becomes necessarily the supreme rule. There is literally nothing which the
    consistent collectivist must not be prepared to do if it serves ‘the good of the whole’, because that is to him the only criterion of what ought to be done.”

    If New Calvinism is allowed to run its course, it will lead to antinomianism.


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    @ okrapod:

    Yes, I find that attitude offensive, but a lot of people hold it – I am over 40, never had sex. I’m a celibate. I’ve molested absolutely no kids in my life time, have no desire to, nor would I ever. Celibacy doesn’t cause sexual assault / child abuse.
    I wish people who complain about child abuse committed by priests would stop using that as an argument.


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    @ Max:
    You don’t have to imply. I’m afraid it is a hard fact!


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    @ Max:
    Like deceiving people being the SOP in churches. Not seen as unethical or immoral because it is for the good of the collective.


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    JYJames wrote:

    Darlene wrote:
    What? Covered up the windows in the traditional sanctuary? Now why would this be? I’m trying to wrap my mind around this.

    Exactly. It’s very odd. Yet the part really baffling (try to wrap one’s head around this…) is: Thousands of attendees who do not question the logic here.
    Moreover the facility was paid for, modern, beautiful.
    So why start a capital campaign to renovate?
    The major givers were in the traditional group.

    Somebody told them that lighting effects and videos work better in a black box theatre. They want to be like the other Cool Kids with their fancy theatres…oops, I meant churches, so they covered up all sources of natural light.


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    Lydia wrote:

    I was going to share some articles from the Baptist Standard with Kimberly about the making of the BFM 2000 and Mohler insisting on adding the “s” to priesthood of believer… but they are gone! The Dilday article on the BFM2000 is gone, too.

    Have you ever tried using the Wayback Machine? It’s over at archive.org and it’s quite miraculous.


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    roebuck wrote:

    deb wrote:

    siteseer wrote:

    bewbs

    Interesting spelling.

    I confess, that’s a new one on me!

    It’s a younger generation thing. I’ve seen it from teens/young adults for several years.


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    Sopwith wrote:

    Extreme Calvinists believe in man’s total inability to see, hear, and respond to the truth. They believe that a person has to be regenerated (born-again) before they even believe. They believe a spiritually dead man can’t hear or see or respond.

    Hi SOPWITH,

    WOW, great comparisons! I was looking at the one you wrote that I quoted here, and I thought HOW can people who believe in Calvin possibly reconcile the great mystery of the Incarnation with such a teaching??? I admit I don’t know their teaching on the Incarnation, but even then, I wonder if it bears any resemblance to the orthodox Christian (Eastern and Western) viewpoints on the Incarnation ?


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    Elizabeth Lee wrote:

    and videos

    Honestly if I never see another dumb video in church it will be too soon.


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    okrapod wrote:

    And no, celibacy does not cause child sex abuse. You are quite right about that. If it did, then Paul was in error in recommending celibacy as a life style. Bible toting protestants can surely see that.

    But since the Reformation Wars, celibacy is ROMISH.

    During the Reformation wars, single or married clergy was a proclamation of Whose Side You Were On and it got carried over. ENEMY Christians practice Celibacy.


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    Friend wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    I was going to share some articles from the Baptist Standard with Kimberly about the making of the BFM 2000 and Mohler insisting on adding the “s” to priesthood of believer… but they are gone! The Dilday article on the BFM2000 is gone, too.

    Have you ever tried using the Wayback Machine? It’s over at archive.org and it’s quite miraculous.

    Though I understand there are tricks you can use to prevent your page/article from being archived by Wayback Machine. Mars Hill Dudebro was said to use that trick, and I’m sure the word got around.

    Russian bureaucratic tradition: NEVER write anything down for Plausible Deniability. If it’s not written down, It Never Happened and You Can’t Prove it Ever Did!


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    Max wrote:

    Here’s a line from Hayek in his book section on “Why the Worst Get on Top”:
    “He must gain the support of the docile and gullible, who have no strong convictions of their own but are ready to accept a ready-made system of values if it is only drummed into their ears sufficiently loudly and frequently.”

    “Effective Propaganda consists of Simplification and Repetition.”
    — Reichsminister Josef Goebbels


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    Elizabeth Lee wrote:

    so they covered up all sources of natural light.

    Covering the light. In more ways than one.


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    My experience with the “bitterness” card being played is that the person no longer wants to hear what you have to say and want to diminish it’s impact by labeling you as bitter.

    Don’t let people do this to you. Often times I’d respond with ” If you mean that I’m very upset at how the pastors are lying and mistreating people-then yes-I am bitter” or something to that affect. Don’t let people turn the conversation back onto you when you are simply trying to point out the problems you see. Of course, if you have something to own, own it, but don’t let them shut you down with the “bitterness” card.


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    doubtful wrote:

    but don’t let them shut you down with the “bitterness” card.

    It is a variation on “shoot the messenger”.


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    Guys-

    I have a proposal for one or two of you members from FBC Rocky Mount. I heard about this situation a while ago when one of the members contacted me about it. I encouraged them to contact Dee, because Dee understands the SBC better than I. I am writing a lot about the Evangelical Free for a reason, as that is my background and what I am familiar with. Plus I thought Dee would do a great job as she know the SBC well. I gave Dee a heads up about this situation and she told me that they had been contacted by another person.

    But I have a proposal for a couple of you if you are interested. Do any former members of FBC Rocky Mount want to write Dennis Darville an open letter about this situation? I would be happy to publish it at my blog and pursue it both with SEBTS and Dennis Darville. I can be quite aggressive, just look at some of what I have done about Community Evangelical Free Church in Elverson, Pennsylvania. 🙂

    No pressure but if someone from FBC is interested I would be happy to give you a platform. Plus if you would like it can also be done anonymously.

    Thanks

    David


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    “Effective Propaganda consists of Simplification and Repetition.”

    Here it is, boys. It’s really pretty simple. Think of a flower … a tulip … a tulip with 5-petals. Petal one doctrine means …. Petal two … etc.


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    Lydia wrote:

    You don’t have to imply. I’m afraid it is a hard fact!

    I often wonder, Lydia, why there are not more Baby Boomers in SBC ranks making a fuss about things right now. I feel like a rare and endangered species sometimes.


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    doubtful wrote:

    Don’t let people do this to you. Often times I’d respond with ” If you mean that I’m very upset at how the pastors are lying and mistreating people-then yes-I am bitter” or something to that affect. Don’t let people turn the conversation back onto you when you are simply trying to point out the problems you see.

    Jesus, speaking to the Pharisees:

    “47 “Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. 48 So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. “

    Here we have Jesus bringing something up dating back to SEVERAL HUNDREDS OF YEARS AGO.

    Or Paul:

    “You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. ”

    Paul! Why are you bringing up that “killing the prophets” thing again? That was SSOOOO last year! Haven’t you moved on yet?

    And Stephen:

    ““You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit! 52 Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? “

    I mean, really! When are you ever going to get over that whole killed and persecuted the prophets thing?

    Bitter, bitter, bitter. Rehashing things that occurred as far back as thousands of years ago! You just need to let go and let God. Oh.

    Not only that, we only got ONE SIDE of the story! Who knows what those rebellious, out of control, under no one’s authority prophets did that caused them to have to be disciplined?

    Severely.


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    Elizabeth Lee wrote:

    natural light

    Matt. 5:1-12 28AD, Jesus is on a hillside overlooking the Sea of Galilee. In a natural amphitheatre he speaks to folks who have trekked from Jerusalem, Galilee, Judaea and the Decapolis: the sermon from the mount.


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    JYJames wrote:

    Elizabeth Lee wrote:

    natural light

    Matt. 5:1-12 28AD, Jesus is on a hillside overlooking the Sea of Galilee. In a natural amphitheatre he speaks to folks who have trekked from Jerusalem, Galilee, Judaea and the Decapolis: the sermon from the mount.

    The speakers and smoke machines were artfully hidden among the rocks for that ‘supernatural effect’, and the laser show after sunset was to die for! The whole show was simulcast to the Capernaum campus for those who couldn’t make it to The Mount. Free donuts and coffee! Well, some bread and fish anyway…


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    K.D. wrote:

    Rose wrote:
    As a former female student at Southeastern…let me tell you that SEBTS is a place of double speak, things going on under the surface, very money and connection driven, lots of nepotism, the women there are generally very socially manipulative (you have to be in order to operate as a female in that world.) It’s not objective, and it’s definitely celebrity culture driven while they pretend they’re not. It’s a very confining non-free place where everyone talks like robots. It’s a seriously creepy place. I don’t think I’m eager rating when I say it is very cult-like. Lots of the men at SEBTS and in the surrounding SBC churches have a really low emotional IQ. What’s being said often doesn’t match what’s actually happening. I really think it’s a business front disquised as a seminary. They were the most unfriendly people I have ever met in my life. People seemed miserable and stunted while pretending and saying everything was great, etc.
    Oh my…..Oh my goodness…..you hit the nail the nail on the head….this how I saw people when I was at SWBTS in Ft. Worth…..wow…..I thought it was just my experience.

    What was that verse about you’ll know them by their fruit?

    The average pew sitter doesn’t really know what goes on in seminary. If I would have known, I would not have attended….it is a horrid place. Those who tell you otherwise are either telling a story or they are part of the problem…


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    @ Max & Lydia,
    Deb and her husband had the best idea I think, vetting these new young guys and then making them legally bound to not try and change church polity, if they do, it’s breach of contract and they’re out. I have zero experience or knowledge of Baptist polity or tradition, but I do know that it must suck when neo-cals come in and foist their cruel religion on unsuspecting and trusting parishioners.
    Is there a way forward for Baptist folk to avoid these predatory clergy and their despotic religion?


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    Sorry to be off topic but shocked to just hear that CJ Mahaney is headlining two conferences in the UK in September – one for ‘leaders and wives’ called ‘Entrusted with the gospel’ and another called ‘True Worshippers’:

    http://sguk.org/events/#speakers

    Sovereign Grace songs seem to be infiltrating many UK churches at the moment through the New Calvinist link but many ordinary Christians are blissfully unaware of the bistory of CJ and Sovereign Grace. Wish the message could be got out loud and clear in the UK that CJ and Sovereign Grace are not to be trusted. Can anyone help?


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    Lea wrote:

    That poor girls blog post broke my heart.

    And pegged out into the redzone of my Bizarro-Meter.

    Girls on one side, boys on the other. Or girls in one room and boys in another.

    If such separation is needed for prepubescent children – I can’t imagine why these leaders aren’t separating out the adults during worship, preaching, etc.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if that wasn’t somewhere on their list of “Things to Do Soon”. Truly Chrislam as someone referenced earlier.

    I am really fed up with the nauseating teachings and actions that cause females to view their bodies as something negative.

    I ran across the following snippet, that really expresses this negative attitude toward women that seems to be gaining steam in churchianity.

    http://www.smh.com.au/comment/burqas-reveal-more-about-men-than-women-20141020-118mce.html

    The primary reason that women are required to swathe themselves in fabric, covering their collarbones necks, arms, legs, ankles, elbows, shoulders, throats, thighs, ears, the napes of their collarbones, necks, their hair and in some cases their faces, is because culturally, they are considered untrustworthy and immoral, condemned to the role of seductress. The fine shape of an ankle or tendril of hair are the tools of seduction. In essence, the veil, much lauded by so-called Islamic teachings, is a protection for men against us voracious vixens of the mortal world. Not, as so many pundits state, a protection for women against men.

    Isn’t this the same seed being planted by churchianity in young girls?


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    BL:

    IMO, it seems so many men in the church are “afraid” of women and use the Bible incorrectly as a tool to try and keep them in a form of prison. Dear God please keep me away from these men as they make me beyond angry.


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    Rose wrote:

    As a former female student at Southeastern…let me tell you that SEBTS is a place of double speak, things going on under the surface, very money and connection driven, lots of nepotism, the women there are generally very socially manipulative (you have to be in order to operate as a female in that world.) It’s not objective, and it’s definitely celebrity culture driven while they pretend they’re not. It’s a very confining non-free place where everyone talks like robots. It’s a seriously creepy place. I don’t think I’m eager rating when I say it is very cult-like. Lots of the men at SEBTS and in the surrounding SBC churches have a really low emotional IQ. What’s being said often doesn’t match what’s actually happening. I really think it’s a business front disquised as a seminary. They were the most unfriendly people I have ever met in my life. People seemed miserable and stunted while pretending and saying everything was great, etc.
    So, no interaction or direct knowledge of Dennis Darville, but this is the world he was operating in and SEBTS likely enabled or hid his behavior. I wouldn’t trust them to do anything about it, because they probably already saw or knew about his behavior. Unless something tragic happened recently to him that could explain a sudden behavior change or he has a brain tumor that has suddenly altered his personality, he’s probably been like this his whole life.
    SEBTS also has a reputation of people leaving because of some sort of conflict or hiding something and them pretending that the person just neutrally left when there is usually more to the story.

    Here is an article about SEBTS. I find some of the Christanese in the article to be rather telling.
    http://www.sebts.edu/mobile/headlines/articles/Spring2012_Birch.aspx


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    Max wrote:

    I often wonder, Lydia, why there are not more Baby Boomers in SBC ranks making a fuss about things right now. I feel like a rare and endangered species sometimes.

    I sadly think that those that took over the SBC did such a good job the remaining Baby Boomers in the SBC have seen how others were treated and just do not want to go through the mess of trying to stop the bleeding going on in the SBC.


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    @ Christiane:
    That’s a very god question – and I’m not certain the answer would be, um, orthodox, in the broadest possible sense.


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    okrapod wrote:

    @ Lydia:
    Yes, it seems to be a political statement.

    Leaders of various churches like to take the time for a photo op. When the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew (I like to call him Bart) met with Pope Francis social media was abuzz with all the staged poses. Many people were impressed. I wasn’t one of them.


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    mot wrote:

    Max wrote:

    I often wonder, Lydia, why there are not more Baby Boomers in SBC ranks making a fuss about things right now. I feel like a rare and endangered species sometimes.

    I sadly think that those that took over the SBC did such a good job the remaining Baby Boomers in the SBC have seen how others were treated and just do not want to go through the mess of trying to stop the bleeding going on in the SBC.

    Church is not that big of a deal to many people like it once did….the average person really wants to ” go along to get along” in the church now…


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    K.D. wrote:

    Church is not that big of a deal to many people like it once did….the average person really wants to ” go along to get along” in the church now…

    K.D., I have found in my church experiences that people do not speak up about wrong because they do not want to choose sides. But to not choose a side is to choose a side and often some very innocent people get hurt because those that should have stood up for right did not.


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    K.D. wrote:

    Church is not that big of a deal to many people like it once did….the average person really wants to ” go along to get along” in the church now…

    I so remember BOLD MISSION THRUST. But when the TAKEOVER began in earnest in 1979 BOLD MISSION THRUST was pushed to the side. IMO a great opportunity missed but the ding a lings running the SBC today are clueless of how they messed this up.


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    Deb wrote:

    Those who have been deeply affected by what happened at FBCRM (and who are new here) shouldn’t be subjected to an unrelated stream of comments. Please either stop the back and forth about denoms or take it to the Open Discussion page.

    Remember, the Treaty of Westphalia ended the Reformation Wars in 1648.
    NOW you’ve gotten the news.


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    mot wrote:

    I sadly think that those that took over the SBC did such a good job the remaining Baby Boomers in the SBC have seen how others were treated and just do not want to go through the mess of trying to stop the bleeding going on in the SBC.

    When you’ve only got a few years to retirement, you don’t want to rock the boat and risk losing everything.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    When you’ve only got a few years to retirement, you don’t want to rock the boat and risk losing everything.

    HUG, that is so true! People in the SBC world have seen how others are treated and they are not under any circumstances place themselves in those positions with them being just a few years away from retirement.


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    BL wrote:

    siteseer wrote:
    BL, once again, your post is full of insight- it is an exact parallel.
    Thanks – it really was a light-bulb moment for me.
    In the same way that wives are treated as children in their patriarchal view, so they treat the churches they lead – children forever, never to mature. With all and everything to them, and the churches existing only to serve their purpose, vision & mission.

    I hope more of these folks within NeoCal churches have light bulb moments. I’ve been having my usual conversations with Calvinists on the Fb site. This time a hubbub occurred when a Calvinist fellow posted about going to a summer camp and having to endure a woman teaching during one of the sessions. He wanted to know what he should do in such a case, and then the advice came rolling in. During the back and forth, one woman commented that the pastor at her former church used to tell women from the pulpit to “shut up” – as a reminder that women talk too much. She also said that this same pastor said from the pulpit that “if a wife interrupts the husband at the dinner table before guests, that the husband was to excuse himself, drag his wife by the hair to the bathroom, and give her a good tongue lashing.” Of course you won’t be surprised to learn that this was a Reformed church. 😉

    When I spoke up and told this same woman that I would have walked out on that service and privately reached out to the pastor’s wife to get help and find a safe place to get away, she proceeded to defend this pastor. It boggles the mind, it really does. (By the way, she did say that the elders had this pastor removed after she left the church.) And when I said that he was promoting spousal abuse from the pulpit and that I wouldn’t be surprised if husbands followed his example, she admitted that there was wife abuse in the congregation. And “other sin in which the husbands thought there would be no accountability.” But then immediately after this comment she stated: “I’m quite sure this is not what the pastor was going for.” How can a person be so naive? Well, I guess I should know the answer to that question having been in an abusive Christian cult. One thing I noted on that Facebook thread was that only one fella came out and denounced that pastor’s behavior. But when it came to denouncing the woman teaching at a summer bible camp, the men piled on in numbers, vilifying such an unbiblical practice. This kind of repeated scenario among Calvinists leads me to wonder just how much wife abuse is going on behind the scenes.


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    Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    *** We have a Zero Tolerance Policy, adopted by the US bishops some years ago in the wake of the Abuse Scandal. All Catholic clergy are mandatory reporters. I have seen this in action in my own diocese, where the diocesan chancery proactively alerted the police to a case they had discovered — even though the accuser himself had not yet officially come forward. The priest in question was immediately arrested.
    *** Everyone who works in lay ministry has to go through the Protecting God’s Children program. I’ve been through it. It’s not perfect, and it won’t stop manipulators and liars, but it’s a heck of a lot better than nothing, which is what most churches have.
    *** Several years ago, the US Bishops commissioned a totally independent study by a secular institution — the John Jay College of Criminal Justice. Again, NO other church has done this. The exhaustive John Jay Study found that about 4% of US Catholic priests had been “credibly accused” of sex abuse over a 40-year period, with most cases dating to the ’60s, ’70s, and ’80s IIRC. Four percent is 4 percent too many, but it hardly fits the popular stereotype of rampant abuse committed by huge hordes of pedophile priests, with offenders in every rectory. (Four percent is also about the same percentage as in other communions, across the board. Again, NO excuse!! Just putting it in perspective.)
    *** “Reconciliation rooms” (for Confession) have big honkin’ glass windows. Visit any Catholic church in Louisville if you don;t believe me.
    *** No, priests are not typically alone with children. If for no other reason…do you think the Church wants more lawsuits? And today’s parents are not stupid. The era of sleepovers at the rectory is over, over, over.
    *** This article is a few years old, but it shows the trajectory: http://www.catholicnews.com/services/englishnews/2013/annual-audit-shows-number-of-abuse-allegations-in-church-dropped-in-2012.cfm
    At the same time, speaking anecdotally: Every other day our local news media carry stories about evangelical pastors caught in sex abuse. But the stories are usually buried in the back pages, and, because evangelicalism itself is so fragmented, the news often flies under the radar. Even the Orthodox fly under the radar. (Google the Greek Orthodox monastery in Astoria, New York, that imported young Ukrainian novices for the express purpose of molesting them. Bet you didn’t hear about that on the evening news or read about it in the Boston Globe!)
    But just because you don’t hear about abuses in other settings, that doesn’t mean they don’t happen. It just means they are under-reported.
    The Catholic Church is the 800-lb. gorilla. Everything we do (especially if it’s negative) gets blared across news media and trumpeted in the streets. But seriously…if you think this means we are worse than everyone else, then you must not believe in Original Sin, which (last time I checked) was a universal affliction, not just a Catholic one.
    America has a long history of lurid anti-Catholic bigotry, much of which has focused on the myth that Catholics are worse sinners than all other Christians. (E.g., the notorious Maria Monk case in the 19th century.) But the reality is that ALL churches and communions — not to mention families, schools, and Scout troops — have sex-abuse issues. The Catholic abuse scandal was horrible beyond belief, and no Catholic I know would dream of justifying it. But no, it was not unique to Catholics. And yes, we *are* actively addressing it — which, again, is a heck of a lot more than many other churches are doing.
    Can the measures we are trying to implement prevent abuse from ever happening? No. Are there still bad bishops out there? Yes. We have nearly 70 million members in America alone and 1.3 billion worldwide. Policing a church that large is like herding cats. We are trying, but we are not there yet. Still, we *are* trying, and our efforts have had some effect.
    By the way…what does “no married priests” have to do with it? Most sex abusers, religious and otherwise, are married or at least non-celibate. If celibacy were the issue, then we wouldn’t have so many public school teachers involved in sex abuse of minors.

    I’m glad to hear of all the advancements your church has made to protect children. In reference to everything else that you said, I agree. The RCC gets the worst rap of all the other churches in this regard. Much of it does have to do with anti-Catholic bigotry. All Christian communities need to clean up what”s in their yards. I recall a verse about logs and specks somewhere.


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    Lydia wrote:

    Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
    America has a long history of lurid anti-Catholic bigotry, much of which has focused on the myth that Catholics are worse sinners than all other Christians. (E.
    What a strange thing to say. Just for clarification, the city I grew up in has a huge Catholic population. That means I played with them in the neighborhood and went to school with them everyday. It just wasn’t a big deal. As a teen I used to go to Catholic picnics with my friends.
    I can hardly believe you played the bigotry card.

    Lydia, I’m glad to hear of your good experiences with Catholics. Notwithstanding, there is enough in our recorded history that in fact shows anti-Catholic bigotry was quite prevalent when immigrants from Ireland and Italy began settling this nation. My personal experience in growing up was quite different from yours. I was warned not to trust Catholics from my atheist grandmother because “they are liars.” Also, my mother, who was also an atheist, raked me over the coals for sneaking off to church with my Catholic friend. She said it wouldn’t have been as bad if it had been the Lutheran church. When it comes down to it, I think many of our views our formed by our experiences.


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    What’s the bombshell???


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    Deb wrote:

    I hope this thread doesn’t get derailed…  
    Please, please stick with the topic at hand.  Those who have been deeply affected by what happened at FBCRM (and who are new here) shouldn’t be subjected to an unrelated stream of comments.  Please either stop the back and forth about denoms or take it to the Open Discussion page.
    I am trying to write the post, and Dee is busy with a Hospice visit.  Thanks for your cooperation.

    I’m sorry, Deb. I just read this now. Blessing to the both of you. You Deebs are loving and gracious to allow us to comment here in such an open manner. I appreciate that.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    Is there a way forward for Baptist folk to avoid these predatory clergy and their despotic religion?

    Yes, forward right through the door to the parking lot. Predators will find a way to prey. By-laws are merely a nuisance to overcome.


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    BL wrote:

    In essence, the veil, much lauded by so-called Islamic teachings, is a protection for men against us voracious vixens of the mortal world. Not, as so many pundits state, a protection for women against men.

    I think it may be both/and. Women are seductresses *and* they are severely harassed by males. And, from what I’ve heard from a young Arab woman, they are severely harassed and worse. Because that is what women are designed for. Sound familiar?


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    I have zero experience or knowledge of Baptist polity or tradition, but I do know that it must suck when neo-cals come in and foist their cruel religion on unsuspecting and trusting parishioners.

    Agonizing is the word. There are numerous reports of young Calvinists splitting traditional churches and taking over church facilities paid for by non-Calvinist members in the years before the new reformation began. While some members just leave silently to join other churches or enter the done ranks, others put up a fight with weeping and gnashing of teeth. The whole ordeal is so un-Christian.

    Muff Potter wrote:

    Is there a way forward for Baptist folk to avoid these predatory clergy and their despotic religion?

    National non-Calvinist SBC leaders have surrendered to the movement for the sake of unity in the midst of division. New Calvinists now control most SBC entities (seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house and a growing number of churches). The only way forward for local churches is in the autonomy granted to them to remain non-Calvinist in belief and practice (which has been the primary theology of SBC for 100+ years) … but that will take a good deal of discernment in future years to avoid the stealth and deception by New Calvinists seeking to gain a foothold in their churches. Southern Baptists have been such trusting souls when it comes to their leaders; this development has caught them by surprise – they never thought they would have to deal with lying scribes!


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    Pattience, Dennis, patience. It will be up this evening. 


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    When you’ve only got a few years to retirement, you don’t want to rock the boat and risk losing everything.

    What aging SBC leaders don’t want to talk about is that their retirement annuities are tied up in the success of the SBC. So, as you note, why rock the boat when you are so close to the dock? (there must be a Scripture for such shepherds). Thus, the only challenge to the onslaught of New Calvinism within SBC is coming from grassroots Southern Baptists, along with non-SBC Christians who know that this just ain’t right! I keep waiting for church leaders at SBC’s 45,000+ churches to have family talks on Calvinization of the denomination to inform their membership … but they, too, are largely silent in response to calls from SBC leaders to agree to disagree, get along to go along, and make room under the big SBC tent for diverse theologies.


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    mot wrote:

    K.D., I have found in my church experiences that people do not speak up about wrong because they do not want to choose sides.
    Leviticus 5:1 If a person sins because he does not speak up when he hears a public charge to testify regarding something he has seen or learned about, he will be held responsible.
    Praise God for this blog and an opportunity for FBCRM to share what they know and have first hand experience of. To God be the Glory!
    May we continue to seek truth.
    Solomon said: Ecclesiastes 7:23
    All this I tested by wisdomand I said, ‘”I am determined to be wise but this was beyond me. Whatever wisdom may be, it is far off and most profound- who can discover it? So I turned my mind to UNDERSTAND, to INVESTIGATE, and to SEARCH out wisdom and the scheme of things and to understand the stupidity of wickedness and madness of folly”‘
    FBCRM needs to get KNOWLEDGE of what happened so we can UNDERSTAND what happened so we can gain WISDOM and not let it ever, ever happen again on OUR WATCH!! Arise church!!!


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    K.D. wrote:

    Church is not that big of a deal to many people

    A.W. Tozer in his book “Pursuit of God” puts it this way:

    “The tragic result of this spirit are all about us: shallow lives, hollow religious philosophies, the preponderance of the element of fun in gospel meetings, the glorification of men, trust in religious externalities, quasi-religious fellowships, salesmanship methods, the mistaking of dynamic personalities for the power of the Spirit. These and such as these are the symptoms of an evil disease, a deep and serious malady of the soul.”

    I call it Christianity Lite … church folks have taken the salt out of salt.


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    Dennis wrote:

    What’s the bombshell???

    Is that you, Dennis Darville?


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    Lydia wrote:

    Like deceiving people being the SOP in churches. Not seen as unethical or immoral because it is for the good of the collective.

    I guess the young Calvinists haven’t stumbled across the following passage in their ESVs yet:

    “Who shall ascend the hill of the LORD? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false and does not swear deceitfully” (Psalm 24:3-4).


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    No, I am not elect


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    Ken F wrote:

    Fresh off the press at The Gospel Coalition: https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/gospeldrivenchurch/2016/06/21/3-ways-the-gospel-might-divide-a-church/. Looks like they are prepping folks for the division they will be bringing. Nice.

    How sad that people have no problem dividing a church and using the “Gospel” as the reason.


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    mot wrote:

    Ken F wrote:

    Fresh off the press at The Gospel Coalition: https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/gospeldrivenchurch/2016/06/21/3-ways-the-gospel-might-divide-a-church/. Looks like they are prepping folks for the division they will be bringing. Nice.

    How sad that people have no problem dividing a church and using the “Gospel” as the reason.

    O MY GOODNESS!!! I just read the link. Jared must not be the brightest crayon in the box ’cause he just gave away the neo-Cal play book. That link should be mailed out to all vulnerable traditional SBC Churches with a warning cover letter from the DEEBS. That article is shocking in its transparency. I bet Jared’s mentors are shaking their heads right now and saying, ‘take that article down before the Deebs get their hands on it’. Jared has blown the Neo-Cal stealth program to smithereens.


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    Christiane wrote:

    Jared has blown the Neo-Cal stealth program to smithereens.

    Yep, Calvinism is now coming to your local traditional SBC church.


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    dee wrote:

    Pattience, Dennis, patience. It will be up this evening. 

    Dennis probably cooks his minute rice in 58 seconds:
    http://imgur.com/gallery/X1JT2
    And taps his foot impatiently while the microwave pops his popcorn in a minute and 30 seconds. 🙂


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    Dear Deb,
    FBC is getting restless. We can’t concentrate, due to waiting on your post. Do you have a ETA? Can we take a shower and eat dinner?. No one will leave their computers. Help!


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    @ Watchman on the wall:
    Understand!! Checking during choir!


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    mot wrote:

    I sadly think that those that took over the SBC did such a good job the remaining Baby Boomers in the SBC have seen how others were treated and just do not want to go through the mess of trying to stop the bleeding going on in the SBC.

    When you’ve only got a few years to retirement, you don’t want to rock the boat and risk losing everything.

    Man, you do not know how true that statement is….There is a local SBC pastor, 2 years to retirement….tries not to offend anyone, and in doing so, is worthless….just worthless…
    I saw this teaching school. The teachers who were within 5 year of their pension just didn’t do their jobs like they should have….they too were afraid of offending the wrong kid’s parent and getting their contract non-renewed. ( In Texas, it is fairly easy to fire a teacher. )


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    Watchman on the wall wrote:

    Dear Deb,
    FBC is getting restless. We can’t concentrate, due to waiting on your post. Do you have a ETA? Can we take a shower and eat dinner?. No one will leave their computers. Help!

    I provided every one with some perfectly good entertainment in a post above: The Gap Band, “You Dropped a Bomb On Me” that they can pass the time with.

    And instead of debating Catholicism v. Protestantism, I’d like to suggest people here consider debating…
    1. Young, skinny Elvis vs. Older, tubbier Elvis
    2. Should toilet paper be folder over or under

    Topic 2 can get really heated.


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    Ken F wrote:

    Fresh off the press at The Gospel Coalition: https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/gospeldrivenchurch/2016/06/21/3-ways-the-gospel-might-divide-a-church/. Looks like they are prepping folks for the division they will be bringing. Nice.

    Since Jared and his colleagues believe that Calvinism = Gospel, read that article again and substitute Calvinism everywhere gospel is mentioned. For example:

    “People who are not set on the gospel (Calvinism) especially don’t like change. So when the gospel (Calvinism) begins to change a church, and as the gospel (Calvinism) grows a church, it cannot help but change…”

    Conspiracy theories are over folks – these guys are giving us plenty of evidence about their agenda – they are out in the open now.


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    @ Daisy:
    I think I know who this is….,


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    Daisy wrote:

    Dennis probably cooks his minute rice in 58 seconds:

    How uncivilized. Good jasmine rice takes 15 min. after a good boil is reached and then turned low. It’s best with various wok-seared veggies and meat added sparingly.


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    mot wrote:

    How sad that people have no problem dividing a church and using the “Gospel” as the reason.

    Glad you put the word “Gospel” in quotation marks! They have redefine that word. It has nothing to do with “Good News” in their world


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    Daisy wrote:

    Watchman on the wall wrote:

    Dear Deb,
    FBC is getting restless. We can’t concentrate, due to waiting on your post. Do you have a ETA? Can we take a shower and eat dinner?. No one will leave their computers. Help!

    I provided every one with some perfectly good entertainment in a post above: The Gap Band, “You Dropped a Bomb On Me” that they can pass the time with.

    And instead of debating Catholicism v. Protestantism, I’d like to suggest people here consider debating…
    1. Young, skinny Elvis vs. Older, tubbier Elvis
    2. Should toilet paper be folder over or under

    Topic 2 can get really heated.

    Hahahaha! Over, BTW!


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    Glad you put the word “Gospel” in quotation marks! They have redefine that word. It has nothing to do with “Good News” in their world

    “They” definitely have a different definition of the word gospel. It is not the one I am familiar with.


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    Daisy wrote:

    2. Should toilet paper be folder over or under

    Q. How many men does it take to change a roll of toilet paper? A. No one knows.


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    Daisy wrote:

    And instead of debating Catholicism v. Protestantism, I’d like to suggest people here consider debating…
    1. Young, skinny Elvis vs. Older, tubbier Elvis
    2. Should toilet paper be folder over or under

    Thank you!

    Oh, over is how the elect hang toilet paper.


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    Catherine wrote:

    Hahahaha! Over, BTW!

    I agree. (‘Over’ is also the biblical position on the issue of how to hang toilet paper.)


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    Ken F wrote:

    Q. How many men does it take to change a roll of toilet paper? A. No one knows.

    LOL


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    @ Daisy:
    Expert advice, then!


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    Ken F wrote:

    Fresh off the press at The Gospel Coalition: https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/gospeldrivenchurch/2016/06/21/3-ways-the-gospel-might-divide-a-church/
    Looks like they are prepping folks for the division they will be bringing. Nice.

    I took a glance at their page. Neo Calvinists tend to define Gospel to mean Calvinism. If you’re a Calvinist, you don’t have the Gospel, in their view.


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    @ Daisy:
    I meant to say, if you are NOT a Calvinist, you don’t have the Gospel in their view.


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    @ Ken F:
    🙂

    @ Catherine

    Expert advice, then!

    Do I even need to add that hanging the TP ‘Over’ is also the Gospel way of hanging it?


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    Ken F wrote:

    Fresh off the press at The Gospel Coalition: https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/gospeldrivenchurch/2016/06/21/3-ways-the-gospel-might-divide-a-church/. Looks like they are prepping folks for the division they will be bringing. Nice.

    Neocalvinism does bring division. Fortunately, it often ends up dividing actual Christians from the typical neocalvinist fanboy and abuser. That may occur under the circumstances o a church split, but I’d rather lose a building than lose my soul.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Catherine wrote:
    Hahahaha! Over, BTW!
    I agree. (‘Over’ is also the biblical position on the issue of how to hang toilet paper.)

    Worked for a national hotel chain while an ungrad, briefly….always under….


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    Daisy wrote:

    And instead of debating Catholicism v. Protestantism, I’d like to suggest people here consider debating…
    1. Young, skinny Elvis vs. Older, tubbier Elvis
    2. Should toilet paper be folder over or under

    Thank you!

    Oh, over is how the elect hang toilet paper.

    I love the suggestions. These last few days have been really strange. I kept wondering why and then it came to me that we are sitting underneath a full ‘strawberry’ moon, known to drive people a little wacky. Now, everyone will settle down and discuss the important roll TP plays in the workings of the cosmos, and there will no more animus until next FULL MOON.


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    Tick tock tick tock…..


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    Max wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    Like deceiving people being the SOP in churches. Not seen as unethical or immoral because it is for the good of the collective.
    I guess the young Calvinists haven’t stumbled across the following passage in their ESVs yet:
    “Who shall ascend the hill of the LORD? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false and does not swear deceitfully” (Psalm 24:3-4).

    Once again, select Gospel….


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    K.D. wrote:

    Once again, select Gospel….

    KD: The SBC has been done for years–it is a joke. It saddens me that an organization that was once so alive has been taken over by those that will be the ones to put the final nails in the coffin.


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    mot wrote:

    Ken F wrote:
    Fresh off the press at The Gospel Coalition: https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/gospeldrivenchurch/2016/06/21/3-ways-the-gospel-might-divide-a-church/. Looks like they are prepping folks for the division they will be bringing. Nice.
    How sad that people have no problem dividing a church and using the “Gospel” as the reason.

    Remember and never forget: It’s the CALVINIST PLAYBOOK.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Fresh off the press at The Gospel Coalition: https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/gospeldrivenchurch/2016/06/21/3-ways-the-gospel-might-divide-a-church/

    I asked the following question at this blog site: “Is this division of a “church” necessary for the church to be Calvinistic if it is not already?

    It did get published and here is the answer from Jared :”Tom, I’m not sure I understand the question. Could you restate it?
    (The post has nothing to do with Calvinism, for what it’s worth.)”

    So his post has nothing to do with Calvinism–rolling my eyes.


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    mot wrote:

    Daisy wrote:

    Fresh off the press at The Gospel Coalition: https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/gospeldrivenchurch/2016/06/21/3-ways-the-gospel-might-divide-a-church/

    I asked the following question at this blog site: “Is this division of a “church” necessary for the church to be Calvinistic if it is not already?

    It did get published and here is the answer from Jared :”Tom, I’m not sure I understand the question. Could you restate it?
    (The post has nothing to do with Calvinism, for what it’s worth.)”

    So his post has nothing to do with Calvinism–rolling my eyes.

    Well 24 hours later my question and response by Jared have been deleted. I wonder why?


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    Christiane wrote:

    These last few days have been really strange. I kept wondering why and then it came to me that we are sitting underneath a full ‘strawberry’ moon, known to drive people a little wacky. Now, everyone will settle down and discuss the important roll TP plays in the workings of the cosmos, and there will no more animus until next FULL MOON.

    Back in the Eighties on KBRT-AM afternoon talk radio, Rich Buhler would sometimes talk about the Full Moon, AKA “Weird Call Days”. He used to say that sometimes he’d get whole shows like this:

    “Talk from the Heart, you’re on the air.”
    WEIRD. CALL.
    “Talk from the Heart, you’re on the air.”
    WEIRD. CALL.
    “Talk from the Heart, you’re on the air.”
    WEIRD. CALL.

    For the entire show (“I don’t even know what galaxy some of these callers are calling in from”), and he’d joke “must be the Full Moon or something”. Then he’d go home at the end of the day and guess what? Full Moon.

    Weirdest of Weird Call Days (which I actually listened in) was the Friday before the prophesied date of the 1984 Olympics Earthquake Scare, but that’s a story in and of itself.


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    Thank you for introducing me to Wendell Phillips!!


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    John wrote:

    Wow. Excellent analysis. The comments from Elizabeth sound eerily similar to some of the responses I and others (including one who is ordained minister and another two who served as elders in their churches) got from a family member who has been deep in the John MacArthur camp for many years when we challenged them on behavior that was clearly, clearly, obviously, glaringly sinful and unethical. I was called restless. I was called bitter. I was told I was greedy and had verses quoted at me. There was an incredible unrepentant resistance to any plain and truthful talk.

    think this is a trait of authoritarian churches. I’d even say it’s one of the ways they are cult-like. Authoritarian leaders produce authoritarian followers. Abuse breeds abuse. If a leader is convinced they have a corner on God’s special truth, or the only right doctrine or whatever, and sends demeaning signals about anyone who disagrees with them, their followers will be the same way. That can lead to astonishing abusiveness.

    Hi John

    I so agree with your post, thank you.

    I grew up as a baby Christian in the same group as Dennis. We went to the same meetings, same leadership training school, also attended the meeting of all the church form all campuses every month for three days. We sat under the same teachers.We spent one week together with all the church at Christmas through New Year. Many years, we did this…

    I helped to plant more than a few churches. It was violate combination of the Truth of God and His genuine movings and stirrings in His people and the push of the flesh of the leadership. It was never separated of seen clearly, nor did anyone really repent for the damage done to the sheep, even at the end.

    It is so heartbreaking to see , it still going on with no apparent slowing down. We will stand before God one day.I pray for us all. Later some did see, for which I am thankful.


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    I know that teen! What a sweet and beautiful person she is!! How sad that her experiences was shared by others at FBCRM.


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    “A 130 year, successful church was lopped in two by an ineffective pastor.”

    What an ignorant statement! FBCRM has been split for 25 years, yet remained under the same roof because the previous pastor treasured peace at all cost.

    Dennis didn’t split this church – the disenfranchised fringe finally staged a coupe and won.

    And if the history of FBCRM fits your definition of a successful church, it is only because you prize the country club mindset that now dominates its decisions.


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    Stuart wrote:

    And if the history of FBCRM fits your definition of a successful church, it is only because you prize the country club mindset that now dominates its decisions.

    Deb has had the chance to talk with a number of people involved in FBCRM. I am sorry that you hold your Christian brothers and sisters in such disdain. Well, you follow a man who has a long history in what some have called a cult. It will be interesting to see how things work themselves out. I bet you all will have you hands full away from the so called "country club" set.


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    Stuart wrote:

    “A 130 year, successful church was lopped in two by an ineffective pastor.”

    What an ignorant statement! FBCRM has been split for 25 years, yet remained under the same roof because the previous pastor treasured peace at all cost.

    Dennis didn’t split this church – the disenfranchised fringe finally staged a coupe and won.

    And if the history of FBCRM fits your definition of a successful church, it is only because you prize the country club mindset that now dominates its decisions.

    Stuart, bless your heart.
    Have you ever met Elizabeth on this post? If not, you should because you two are definitely kindred spirits. I hope you two meet up at CCC and become best of buds! Y’all will have fun reading all those John Piper books and having “church in a box” with your lead pastor and his Maranatha ways. By the way dear Stuart…has he yet to mention Maranatha to you guys? He never mentioned it to FBC. I don’t know why he didn’t put it on his bio? He was a director of Maranatha and stayed until it exploded. I don’t understand why he didn’t mention it to FBC at same time he was telling us of his affair. And we all know confessing of past sins is much, much different than telling of past sins because a secret call was made to Brad Bobbit exposing him.
    Oh well, maybe that kind of stuff doesn’t bother you or Elizabeth. Your statement about how 1 man could make a successful church of 130 years split was ignorant…Stuart, read your Bible. You know the book that’s under your latest John Piper book. Read Kings! It’s full of successful nations falling within a couple of months because of 1 man. It’s amazing what 1 evil man can do in just a short amount of time. Also, equally as interesting , it’s amazing what 1 godly man can do in 21 years.


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    @ dee:
    Since the inception of TWW over 7 years ago, we have said time and time again that time will tell.

    We have covered Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill Church, C.J. Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries, Doug Phillips and Vision Forum, as cases in point.

    And we were consistently right!

    Looking forward to following the Darville church plant as well…


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    Go TWW reporters!


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    @ Watchman on the Wall:

    No doubt the men of Christ Covenant Church will be participating in MAN CAMP later this month. Tony Merida, one of the speakers at Man Camp (who pastors a church here in Raleigh and teaches at SEBTS) welcomed C.J. Mahaney to his church four months ago. Mahaney delivered one of his canned sermons – Cravings and Conflicts.

    Birds of a feather…

    If you don't know anything about Mahaney, whose church is now affiliated with the SBC, just search his name on our blog.


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    Stuart wrote:

    “A 130 year, successful church was lopped in two by an ineffective pastor.”
    What an ignorant statement! FBCRM has been split for 25 years, yet remained under the same roof because the previous pastor treasured peace at all cost.
    Dennis didn’t split this church – the disenfranchised fringe finally staged a coupe and won.
    And if the history of FBCRM fits your definition of a successful church, it is only because you prize the country club mindset that now dominates its decisions.

    Country club? We’re not the ones who demanded the giving records of the entire church to see who was worthy of being chosen. We’re not the ones who took “promising” members on recruiting dinners to Lou Reda’s (on First Baptist’s dime). We’re not the ones who called some members about the new meeting places and not others. We’re not the ones who excluded teens whose parents voted no confidence. We’re not the ones who met AT AN ACTUAL COUNTRY CLUB.

    You know, at first I was hurt, then angry. Now, I really feel sorry for you who left. I am truly burdened by the blindness to manipulation you all have. I see how cult mentality works…..even on really smart folks. If not by the grace of God, I’d be sitting in that lobby every Sunday, too. I know….you all see us as spiritually inferior….not conforming to new and trendy worship styles….like you have some higher, intellectual track to “the Gospel” thru the almighty…John piper, mark Driscoll, JD Greear, John MacArthur, Tim Keller, CJ Mahaney, Dennis Darville, Jeff Hedgepeth, Tim Griffin, etc….. open their eyes, Lord.