"If a church wants to hire a Calvinist pastor, then God bless them. Unfortunately, many Calvinist pastoral candidates are not revealing their Calvinism during the pastor search process in order to secure a pastoral position."
You know the saying… Hindsight is 20/20. Well, there is a growing number of traditional Southern Baptist congregations that have uttered these words when it finally dawns on them that their newly hired pastor is Reformed (Calvinist). How in the world did that happen?
Almost four years ago, the Biblical Recorder – a bi-weekly newspaper published by the Baptist State Convention of North Carolina – featured an article that helps explain how this trend is occurring. Les Puryear, a Southern Baptist pastor who was nominated for SBC President in 2008, wrote a guest post which the Biblical Recorder published. It was entitled: Is there a Calvinist agenda to reform traditional Southern Baptist churches? The article begins as follows:
Recently, I [spoke] with a pastor search committee about a pastor search they were conducting. When I mentioned that Calvinist candidates may not be forthcoming in regard to their true beliefs, they asked, “What is a Calvinist?”
I wasn’t surprised that a small rural church was not aware of the Calvinist plan to reform [Southern Baptist Convention] SBC churches.
It may come as a surprise to those of you who live in larger metropolitan areas, but the vast majority of Southern Baptist churches are relatively small. Consider this statistic that was published just last year in the Baptist Press:
Approximately 90 percent of all Southern Baptist churches have 250 people or less attending worship on any given Sunday. Nearly 70 percent of all our cooperating churches have 100 or fewer in attendance each week. Less than 2 percent have more than 1,000 people present for Sunday worship. Clearly the Southern Baptist Convention is composed of far more smaller churches than larger churches.
That's an awful lot of pastor search committees that in all likelihood have no idea what's really going on with the Calvinista power grab taking place in the Southern Baptist Convention. So far Al Mohler, President of the Southern Baptist Convention and architect of the Neo-Cal takeover, has managed to get Calvinists appointed to key leadership positions throughout the SBC. An important next step is to get as many Reformed pastors as possible at the helm of Southern Baptist churches. The seminaries keep pumping out graduates who are predominantly 'reformed' in their soteriology. Is it any wonder that we are hearing about more and more traditional Southern Baptist churches that are unknowingly hiring pastors who have a different theological viewpoint, that being Calvinism?
First Baptist Church in Rocky Mount is one such church where this has recently happened. It is interesting that Les Puryear's article appeared in the Biblical Recorder on July 30, 2012, and nine months later this same publication announced that Dennis Darville had been called to pastor FBC Rocky Mount, where he had been serving as interim pastor since January 1, 2012.
Before accepting the position of lead pastor at FBCRM, Dennis Darville had been Vice President of Institutional Advancement at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary (SEBTS). The Biblical Recorder article written by Puryear included a statement by Darville's colleague, Dr. Daniel Akin – SEBTS President – which was originally published on the Between the Times website. Akin admonished his students with these words:
“Act with personal integrity in your ministry when it comes to this issue. Put your theological cards on the table in plain view for all to see, and do not go into a church under a cloak of deception or dishonesty. If you do, you will more than likely split a church, wound the Body of Christ, damage the ministry God has given you, and leave a bad taste in the mouth of everyone. …”
Clearly, his colleague Dennis Darville didn't put his 'theological cards on the table in plain view for all to see'. In hindsight, Darville appears to have gone into FBCRM under a 'cloak of deception'. Members of FBCRM have come onto our blog to confirm that Darville did not reveal his plans to change church polity or its theological bent. As a result, he did exactly what Akin warned against… He split the church, wounded the Body of Christ, damaged the ministry God gave him, and left a bad taste in everyone's mouth, including the TWW community.
Now in Rocky Mount there are two separate congregations, divided families, broken friendships, and total disharmony. And this was all because Darville had an agenda that he was going to carry out no matter what. Never mind that the super majority voted down his plan to change the church polity from congregational to elder-led. It appears that Darville and his colleagues at FBCRM began secretly planning a new work some time after the disappointing vote. We understand that he was able to gain access to the giving records of the congregation, so he knew who the large contributors were. Remember how Maranatha Campus Ministries was accused of keeping close tabs on tithing?
Does any of this sound like God's will for His church? Absolutely not!
Getting back to the premise of the post… Is there a Calvinistic agenda to reform traditional Southern Baptist churches?
It's been four years since Les Puryear's article was published, and history has proven that there is indeed a Calvinist agenda…
The Biblical Recorder article ends with these sobering words:
Ernest Reisinger, the chief architect of Founders, a Calvinist ministry, describes in great detail [in an article on the Founders Ministries website] how to “reform” a traditional church. He even gives the agenda a name: “The Quiet Revolution.” Make no mistake, there is an intentional effort to “reform” traditional SBC churches into “reformed” (code word for Calvinist) churches.
Traditional SBC church leaders and their churches need to be informed about this Calvinist agenda. They need to be informed on how to ask the right questions to determine the true theological positions of their pastoral candidates. Not only would this process identify Calvinist candidates but other candidates who may not be a good fit for their church, such as candidates who speak in tongues, candidates who believe that one can lose their salvation, or candidates who believe that the Ten Commandments are no longer valid.
But the main difference between Calvinists and other nontraditional Baptist candidates is that only Calvinists are actively trying to change local SBC churches to their beliefs.In response to the Calvinist efforts to reform non-Calvinist churches, a group of traditional Southern Baptist leaders and scholars wrote a “Statement of the Traditional Southern Baptist Understanding of God’s Plan of Salvation.” The list of signatures includes over 250 pastors (representing small, medium, and large churches in 29 states), six former SBC presidents, seven state Baptist convention executives, four members of the Baptist Faith and Message 2000 committee, over 20 associational directors of missions, five Baptist seminary and college presidents, and hundreds of other evangelists, church staff members, and lay ministers. After the release of this statement, many Calvinists said they wanted unity in our convention.
Traditional Southern Baptists also desire unity, and I believe that unity is an attainable goal but only when Calvinists cease trying to reform traditional SBC churches to their views.
Ken Keathley, senior vice president of academic administration and dean of the faculty at SEBTS (and another colleague of Dennis Darville when he worked at the seminary), responded to Les Puryear's article. Here is a portion of that response:
Les and I strongly disagree on one point: he intimates that Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary (SEBTS) is complicit in a Calvinist attempt to takeover [Southern Baptist Convention] SBC churches. Absolutely not. Perhaps others have such a scheme; SEBTS does not.
Even though he doesn’t say so explicitly, Les seems to imply that Southeastern is a major player in a Calvinist coup when he warns that a “majority of these Southern Baptist Calvinist pastors are coming from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (Louisville, Ky.) and Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary (Wake Forest, N.C.).” Does Southeastern have Calvinists on its faculty? Yes, as do all six SBC seminaries.
Calvinism is a part of our Baptist heritage, so Calvinists deserve a place at the SBC table. But the majority of faculty at SEBTS do not subscribe to TULIP. And we have no faculty members who evangelize more for John Calvin than they do for Jesus Christ. Puryear also seems to assume that the typical rural church in North Carolina is a “traditional” Baptist church (“traditional” as defined recently in a statement published by Eric Hankins). Maybe; maybe not. During the 10 years I have lived in the Carolinas I have had the opportunity to preach in many rural churches. Instead of finding many “traditional” Baptist churches, to my dismay I have encountered numerous churches with practically no theological moorings at all. Many historic churches have had pastors who held to a low view of biblical authority with few doctrinal commitments, and the results have been very damaging. Without apology I contend that I would rather see the pastorate of those churches filled with mission-minded, Spurgeon-type Calvinists than to have those congregations remain in the theological murkiness in which many are wandering.
Southeastern Seminary does have an agenda – the Great Commission…
I cannot emphasize enough that this exchange took place almost four years ago. We believe history has proven Les Puryear to be correct — there has been an upswing in Calvinista takeovers. To be frank — anyone who tries to deny it is either deluded or lying.
Just look at what happened when Southern Baptists gathered in St. Louis last week to elect a new president. In the run-off election, the votes were divided 50/50 between Steve Gaines (who is a Non-Calvinist) and J.D. Greear (who self-identifies as a Calvinist). Greear bowed out, and Gaines became SBC President. In case you missed it, we covered the story here.
And to show that this continues to be a hot topic, take a look at these comments posted over on Jared Wilson's blog (on The Gospel Coalition website) over the last few days:
For churches like First Baptist Church Rocky Mount, which will no doubt be hiring another pastor at some point, we have some excellent information that should help them avoid the fiasco from which they are still reeling.
Before we get to that, allow me to rant one more time…
Can you just imagine what was going through the minds of FBCRM members outside the Calvinista bubble when ALL the pastors (except one) as well as the secretary and a good number of deacons and Sunday School teachers quit immediately following the 60/40 vote of confidence on February 14, 2016? As Dee would say, that was DESPICABLE!!!
Just this evening I stumbled upon some incredibly helpful information that all pastor search committees should be using when interviewing pastoral candidates. For those who are not savvy about Reformed Theology (Calvinism), this information will be a tremendous help!
We can hardly wait to share it with you in our upcoming post!
mot wrote:
At the same time SBC-IMB brought 1,000 veteran missionaries home, SBC-NAMB launched 1,000 new churches staffed primarily by inexperienced pastors (YRRs?).
I have listened to both sides of the story as to whether it is better for the missionary if they are employed and paid by a mission board like the SBC does, or whether it is better to go on deputation and raise your own support from multiple sources like (at least at the time) the IFB did. That seems debatable actually. The pro-deputaton people claimed that they had more autonomy on the field but that raising money took a lot of time and effort which could be put to better purposes. They also claimed that some people are better at raising money than others which resulted in a marked difference in life style between the missionaries, which they said was not good. The SBC missionaries that I listened to during my short stent in ‘darkest Africa’ believed that not having to worry about one’s income was a great advantage even while they complained long and loud about some of the things that the then FMB did which, they thought, adversely impacted their work.
So-the hand that writes the checks also holds the reins. There are pluses and minuses to that.
mot wrote:
“CR” these days = Calvinist Resurgence.
Celia wrote:
“Rejoice, Comrades! The chocolate ration of Twenty grams has been INCREASED to Ten!”
Lea wrote:
Because their Theology wasn’t Perfectly Parsed and Truly Reformed.
In some private correspondence years ago, Internet Monk commenter Martha of Ireland mentioned that Calvin taught that God even sends False Assurance of Election to the Reprobate so there is literally NO way to PROVE that YOU are Truly Elect. So the Sons of Calvin HAVE to find a way to PROVE that THEY (not YOU) are Truly Elect.
At one time it was getting rich, i.e. God Blessing You with Riches (completely against Prophet after Prophet but then HE is THE CREATOR and We are just the Creatures…); this “God Makes His Elect Rich” is still around in the Protestant Work Ethic and Prosperity Gospel.
With today’s More Calvinist Than Calvin Elect, it’s Correct Reformed Theology, i.e. Purity of Ideology. If MY Theology is Pure and Perfectly-Parsed and Truly Reformed, then *I* MUST BE OF THE ELECT! (and more important, YOU’RE! NOT!)
mot wrote:
The Universe cannot have two Centers.
Just like in Highlander, There Can Be Only One True Way.
Celia wrote:
The sign of a Sociopath.
Or True Believer in The Cause.
No difference.
Lea wrote:
Including all those carboys of Wildfire under the SBTS?
“A crown based on lies,
YOU WIN OR YOU DIE —
Game of Thrones…”
Nancy2 wrote:
What Evidence?
It Never Existed, Comrades.
Celia wrote:
Absolute POWER plus Utter Righteousness.
mot wrote:
Who’s stockpiling all the Wildfire in the basement?
Christiane wrote:
“‘Experience’? Uhh, what’s the App for that?”
mot wrote:
Some day, an ex-SBC missionary will write a book about this. In the meantime, their lips are sealed, much like the Great Commission Resurgence Task Force records which have been sealed for 15 years (until 2025). What’s that all about?! Shouldn’t the Great Commission be out in the open?!! There’s just too much cloak and dagger stuff at top SBC levels these days.
mot wrote:
Just like Michael Jackson’s underage accusers.
Seven-figure Hush Money plus Gag Order.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Ergo, gossip and slander!
Max wrote:
I’m waiting for a ban on “This Little Light of Mine” …….. “Hide it under a bush, oh no! I’m gonna let it shine!”
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Now I’m picturing Jamie Lannister popping in with a sword to take care of Al Mohler or Piper or something…
Deb wrote:
Yep, Southern Baptists are starting to wonder about a lot of things these days. Did TWW ever do a piece about SBC’s Great Commission Resurgence Task Force sealing their records for 15 years?! We need to get the Deebs on that one ;^)
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Let me just say, this is the not the same impression of what elect and reformed mean that I got in Presbyterian 101. And it’s not Baptist for sure.
@ Nancy2:
Years ago on a Founders comment stream a Calvinist pastor was talking about VBS and how he stopped the kids from singing Father Abraham because of the line “I am one of them and so are you..” How could the kids know they were one of Abraham’s sons?
Celia wrote:
This stuff is just insanity. How could you tell kids that? These people have gone round the bend!
(remember when jesus said suffer the little children to come to me, except the unelect who I hope will burn in hell? Good times)
BTW, did ya’ll see this: http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/online-friendships-are-not-enough
“While online friends are indeed real people for whom we may have genuine affection, it’s essentially impossible for them to actually know the real you. This doesn’t mean these friendships have to be ended, but they do need to be regulated.”
Regulated!
okrapod wrote:
This is a big deal. And while I was at SEBTS, it was a huge topic of discussion among those of us studying missions. I had already chosen to go with an interdenominational support-raising agency because IMB didn’t want to sponsor missionaries in my country. They also rarely sponsored unmarried women.
Those who were looking at IMB or in process with them were very concerned with the fact that very few of the actual people leading the IMB, including most of the board, had never done missions. They were pastors of megachurches and people who wrote books.
How can decision-makers for missionaries be people who don’t know anything about being a missionary?
Celia wrote:
I used to teach at a private Christian school. We were a mixture – different varieties of Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, etc. My juniors and seniors would often come into my classroom singing “Father Abraham”.
Nancy2 wrote:
I just checked – it’s not in the new LifeWay Baptist Hymnal! (however, not sure it was there in previous editions).
Actually, there are some songs missing in the new hymnal, which didn’t survive the revision. Songs referring to Christ’s death as an atonement for everyone and not just the elect – like “Whosoever Will” and “Whosoever Meaneth Me” didn’t make the cut. Neither did “Oh What a Wonder It Is”, with its “all who would believe in Him, He’d save them every one” or “Holy Bible, Book of Love”, which proclaims that Christ “died for everyone.”
Of course, this is anecdotal evidence of a Calvinist conspiracy, so I shouldn’t be gossiping about it.
@ okrapod:
My wife was assemblies of God overseas in a predominantly Christian country. They would get missionaries who would take pictures of the regular service then send them home to supporting church showing all the good work they were doing. In reality they never engaged the congregation at all.
When I did attend church, there were missionaries going to France, Belgium, Quebec.
One guy going to India claimed broken bones were being healed. This was the same time my son was in neonatal ICU so I was seeing some heartbreaking suffering of little ones & families.
Missionaries without accountability can be a big racket.
I remember the ones being sent to Jamaica in winter. Sounded like mission margeurita to me.
@ Max:
This article in EthcsDaily suggests that there may have been manipulation of the figures. It’s a two part article. Here is the first part
http://www.ethicsdaily.com/imb-spending-claims-to-justify-layoffs-dont-match-audits-part-1-cms-23090
And they use confidentiality clauses for all sorts of things
http://www.christianexaminer.com/article/southern-baptist-state-leaders-accuse-mission-organization-of-strong-arming/50691.htm
William Thornton wrote:
Or perhaps the New Guy was selected because he is a popular face among the Calvinista crowd in the SBC. Why such a pup for such an important role? I think the answer is obvious.
I’m going to somewhat disagree on how to characterize the overspending or whatever you would like to call it. As you said, they sold off properties to meet operating expenses. And, as you said, those proceeds could have funded other things like capital improvements elsewhere. That would have been reasonable and understandable. There should have been sufficient reserves that were dedicated to cover unforeseeable operating expenses or unforeseeable drops in revenue such as 2008. I think it is unwise to rely on property appreciation to fund operating expenses since the appreciation can be captured only once. Not good at all to have a mismatch like that.
Is there not a finance MBA or accounting MBA somewhere in the SBC who could manage the funds which donors give in good faith? Must we forever have to have a celebrity face on SBC entities? Trustees who are appointed because….why? I could sure use a dose of competence.
Lowlandseer wrote:
Thanks Seer for seeing this. The article certainly provides an interesting perspective on SBC-IMB’s poor financial management and funny-money bookkeeping over the years. The part 2 section pertaining to the sell of global assets was particularly enlightening. The following quote is a disturbing account of things:
“For tax and legal reasons, the revenue the IMB gleaned from the sale of hard assets in a foreign country would never show up as ‘revenue’ for annual operational expenses in the United States. What would happen is that the money would be placed in ‘slush funds,’ similar to what Congress does with money used for ‘black operations’ or for covert agencies that they wish to keep out of public scrutiny.” (Wade Burlison, former IMB trustee)
I can see why “Ethics” Daily would be interested in this.
Lea wrote:
Well of course, by the elders whose care you’re “under.” They wouldn’t want you hanging around some spiritual abuse website, now would they.
Gram3 wrote:
Not to mention, his church wasn’t too keen on giving to the CP, Lottie, or Annie until he became a big dawg.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
If there was any evidence it has probably been accidentally shredded.
Patriciamc wrote:
Especially when the other participants can’t be ‘pushed under their care’.
Or forced to sign their covenants.
Or brought ‘under discipline’.
Max wrote:
Only the SBC leaders would do something this STUPID!!
“In Essentials Unity, In Non-Essentials Liberty, In All Things Charity”
(this has been attributed to multiple authors)
Diversity seen as ‘strength’ and as mimicking (not mocking) the Holy Trinity, does help the Church in how when one part goes off its trolley, others come along and help the one part get re-balanced.
It’s sort of like that saying by Annie La Mott:
“the reason life works at all is that not everyone in your tribe is nuts on the same day”;
the Body of Christ, because it is not ‘lock-step’ in matters of non-essentials, is able to self-correct in areas where some members occasionally ‘go nuts’.
I suppose that is proven in the way that when the system of paying for indulgences got so corrupted, the Body of Christ said ‘enough’… sad that divisions and schisms occur, but the Body of Christ ITSELF cannot be ‘divided’, and even now, I believe works towards some unity in what IS essential in the way of ‘Who Christ Is’ and in the manner of how He was with people when He was among us.
@ Christiane:
OOPS, I posted on the wrong blog. I’m sorry. Deebs, please remove this. I’m very sorry. I’ll be more careful in future.
William Thornton wrote:
Your statement is boilerplate conspiracy theory stuff. Please allow that TWW folks think independently. Look at all the careful analysis and banter and squabbling and original thought and love and flights of fancy among the regulars. This is not a lockstep group. It’s a group of problem solvers.
Friend wrote:
William–if you will notice most of us that do post here do not use our real names. We feel safe to discuss the issues here without possible retribution or our comments not being posted.
William Thornton wrote:
So, are you refusing to answer the question of whether or not they were required to sign an NDA or lose the offer?
William Thornton wrote:
I remember a missionary family’s assignment being delayed due to a lack of funds, but this was back in the early 2000’s. Not related to 2008. ISTM that the Trustees should have seen that the financial landscape was changing.
Gram3 wrote:
It is hard enough to get people to give, but speaking in general was not necessary. We are adults, be blunt. We can handle the truth.
Gram3 wrote:
Who was watching the numbers at the IMB?
mot wrote:
I doubt it was us they were worried about.
Nancy2 wrote:
I think what William was trying to say is that those assets were never meant to be income producing. An asset like property overseas requires expenditures to maintain it, so a property which is no longer needed to meet ministry objectives is costing the overall ministry just to keep it. Selling it would help the overall budget even if the proceeds of the sale were not used to fund operating expenses. I think it was terribly foolish and reckless to spend the proceeds of those sales to fund operating expenses. I wonder if there is any plan to replace those funds? I see some funky, funky accounting going on.
William Thornton wrote:
Just because delaying new appointments alone would not solve the problem and attrition alone would not solve the problem does not answer the question, “Why were those things not even part of the problem from the get-go?” The credibility problem is that no one has laid out the math so that the pewpeons could analyze it for ourselves. I suspect there is a good institutional reason why they will not release those numbers but instead react with “How dare you question our integrity?”
William Thornton wrote:
The problem is that the entire burden is being borne by missionaries and their families who have committed years and decades to the ministry. When they are mothballed, they have very few options at that point in their life. New missionaries and families have lots of options at that point in their life. Why the preference for new appointments? At the very least, ISTM, the pain should have been spread around.
Correctly identifying a problem is not the same thing as providing the correct solution.
There is truth in saying when baptisms were at their highest in the SBC we were not making disciples. We were often worse than Osteen, inviting folks not to repent and trust Christ for salvation but to come and find their soft place to land or happy place or best life. It was all butts and bucks or nickels and noses. Whatever grew the church. So seeker sensitive we wouldn’t say the word Jesus.
The result was a whole heap of unsaved church members.
Problem correctly identified.
But the wrong solution has taken hold. The answer is not Calvinism, new or old or Neo. It isn’t puritanism, new or old or Neo. It isn’t Lordship Salvation.
It is about knowing the Bible without explaining it away. It is preaching the gospel. When the SBC stops quibbling over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin and starts evangelizing for real, it may grow.
Otherwise, I firmly believe the Holy Spirt will stay out of the organization and let the man centered business model run it right into the ground. Just like He is letting the mainlines bleed out. It is His way or the highway.
At least, that is my opinion.
ishy wrote:
Who were they worried about? It could not have been the missionaries.
William Thornton wrote:
I think the problem lies in defining “voluntary.” No, they were not forced to sign it. However, there was an implicit threat that not signing it would mean a lesser settlement in the future. If you have a family to support and do not know if your position is going to be eliminated if you do not voluntarily sign, then ISTM that your hand is forced…That is not really voluntary.
I think what you are hearing is frustration from people who have been misled my Trustees who now want us to trust that they have considered all the options and not just jumped at the one which, on its face, supports a Calvinist agenda. This is not an isolated incident but rather one which fits a particular pattern. It may not be what has happened with IMB, but we have no real basis for believing that because the Trustees have been so secretive and misleading.
Gram: I have heard all my life to trust the trustees. I do not trust them.
mot wrote:
Themselves
ishy wrote:
Bingo–they still have their jobs. No stress or financial distresses for them. They are just allowed to MOVE ON!
William Thornton wrote:
The problem is that we do not have all the facts on which to base a reasonable judgment. Because the guys who messed it up are now covering up their fix. How is this any different than “Trust us and shut up?” At the other sites, like Voices, a woman who dissents is treated as less than nothing. Very immature behavior.
Gram3 wrote:
Women are certainly not submitting to men when they are asking questions–I am being snarky.
Lea wrote:
I read the page.
The author said:
“While online friends are indeed real people for whom we may have genuine affection, it’s essentially impossible for them to actually know the real you.”
I have to disagree on this. After my mom died and I tried going to local churches to seek support, I realized that most Christians (in “in person” relationships) don’t want to know the “real me.”
When I showed them the “real me” (which included confiding in the ones who seemed trustworthy) that I was going through a rough patch, I was shamed or put down. Many Christians don’t have the patience to walk along side someone who is being truly vulnerable with them, some people found the kind of genuineness I was engaging in scary or intimidating. Christians at local churches prefer it if you act fake, wear a fake smile, and act like you are hunky dory even though in reality your life has been coming down around you.
Conversely, when I’ve written of my struggles in some sites (like this one), I’m usually met with more understanding and compassion.
I may not be writing under my real name (“Daisy” isn’t my actual name), but I’ve always been the real me when I’ve posted her and on other sites. I feel more comfortable being the real me online than I do in person, actually.
The author wrote:
“You can learn a lot about a person by studying their online presence. No matter how much we try to hide our faults or project a more polished version of ourselves, sooner or later, we post enough on our page to reveal aspects of who we really are”
No, I don’t do that. Some people do, that’s true. But even when I post under my true name on Facebook on my own page, I am honest about my flaws, or if I’m having a problem. I rarely post about my personal problems in my Facebook page, though. I usually post entertaining things, like pet photos.
But I’m not fake on Facebook. I don’t try to project an image of myself that I have a perfect life.
The author said:
“One reason why our self-made online portraits are so incomplete is because they are self-made. Everything we project about ourselves is tainted by self-perception.”
The same thing is true of in-person relationships, even more so, IMO. Like I said before, I’ve been around church people in churches who wear masks.
They don’t want to ‘get real’ and admit to their flaws and mistakes, so they plaster on the fake, happy clappy personality and fake smile. If you dare to let your mask down and confess to them you are sad, afraid, lonely, they immediately go into judgment mode and start shutting you down. I’ve not had that problem near as much on blogs like this one.
He wrote: “The truth is you can’t truly know a person or be known through the unavoidable firewall of social media.”
I don’t agree – if the person is being honest online, you can get to know them really well.
A lot of his other criticisms of online relationships are just as true of real life (face to face) relationships, too.
I’m not saying having mainly, or only, online relationships is the ideal – I sometimes prefer face to face (or over the phone chats) relationships, but I think the author is shortchanging internet friendships.
mot wrote:
Or is it, instead, BRILLIANT?! If you wanted to alter the prevailing non-Calvinist theology in SBC, your strategy might include: (1) gain control of SBC entities (seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house) by maneuvering New Calvinist leaders in place; (2) indoctrinate and release an army of YRRs into traditional churches by stealth and deception; (3) promote affiliation with non-SBC reformed organizations (Acts29, T4G, TGC, etc.) to motivate your young army; (4) take advantage of poor finances to reduce the foreign mission force of primarily non-Calvinists; replace them with YRRs at first opportunity; (5) take advantage of good finances to launch an aggressive church planting program with primarily YRR pastors; (6) “replant” struggling churches with YRR pastors; (7) do whatever else is necessary by whatever means to restore the ‘gospel’ to millions of Southern Baptists who have lost it over the years. Within a generation (if not before) Calvinization of the largest non-Calvinist Protestant denomination will be accomplished. Brilliant!
Max wrote:
Max:
I had not thought about it that way. I would tend to believe you are right.
FW Rez wrote:
Waiting for any female or anyone who disagrees with 9Marks/CBMW/Gospel Glitterati Global to be invited to speak authoritatively at SEBTS. The rapture will happen first…
Daisy wrote:
I agree. I have kind of mixed thoughts on how well you can know people just from text. Sometimes you can be more intimate, because its not as scary in text – but it’s also easier for someone to lie. But maybe some of those people can lie just fine in person too, so who knows.
Gram3 wrote:
Their chapel schedule includes a "Women's Only Chapel", but I doubt that is the agenda.
Deb wrote:
Well, he got Patriarchy and the *gospel* right so that’s all that matters. His actions…..when you’ve got the other two right, behavior takes a lesser seat.
Max wrote:
A legitimate counterproposal, Max. $30-35 million per year isn’t much for a big corporation but it’s huge for the SBC, expecially in a time of flat or declining giving. That amount of money would have wiped out much of NAMB’s church planting for the forseeable future. It would mean completely shutting down one of the six seminaries for a number of years, or forcing severe reductions in faculty and enrollment on all six. The SBC in annual session could have voted to increase IMB’s proportion of the common funding plan, Cooperative Program, from the current 50.5% to around 70% to provide the additional $30-35m. It wouldn’t have stood a chance of passing. Strangely, even in the SBC people act to protect their budgets and allocations and are loath to relinquish them, even for good purposes.
mot wrote:
Ah, reading Pravda are you? The reason for the timing is that IMB always releases their LMCO at or just prior to the annual meeting. I knew the big increase was coming from other data released. Rick Patrick is a friend of mine. I just don’t buy much of his stuff. He questions my stuff. I question his. We are, one might say, in friendly cooperation with each other. On this, he was engaging in rank speculation about funny numbers, sans evidence.
Celia wrote:
I don’t mind using my whole name but think I will not soil this place with my photograph…might be a bit too much, straight face or not.
I have never heard anyone raise a question about the reported LMCO numbers. If someone has done so here, I confess that though I check all of the blog queens wonderful articles, I rarely delve into the hundreds of comments.
Point me to some, I’d be interested to see it.
Max wrote:
What!! These SBC leaders seem more like communists than any kind of church elder as described in the Bible.
@ Bridget:
Things used to be so much more simple and straightforward in the SBC. You could walk into any of its churches throughout the country and hear the message of the Cross of Christ for ALL people. Sure, the SBC big dogs have always been fighting over some theological bone or something, but you could depend on the local churches to be salt and light to a dying world. That is changing.
William Thornton wrote:
I wasn’t referring to “new” money or a different CP configuration, but diverting existing funds away from NAMB to IMB to keep foreign missionaries on the field. When IMB was suffering, NAMB was spending $60 million annually to plant new churches. Perhaps it would make more sense to have one mission agency, in which foreign vs. home mission ventures could be balanced more easily in a given year.
William Thornton wrote:
I have one in mind.
Bridget wrote:
Only difference is they duckspeak different Party Lines.
Wonder how Jesus likes being reduced to The Party Line and nothing more?
Max wrote:
Diverting would require such a vote. I have a couple of seminaries in mind.
Talk is afoot about combining the two mission boards. I am wary of that.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
HUG:
It is kind of like the old rock and roll song–Step out of line and they take you away. The FUNDAMENTALISTS took a working organization and in the effort to purify it of all the LIBERALS have made it dysfunctional.
Not one of the current SBC leaders probably gives a rip what I think, but the SBC is dead and sadly needs to be buried. It is like Humpty Dumpty falling off of the wall, no one can put it back together.
mot wrote:
Then the White Walkers must have gotten to them first, because they sure won’t lie down.
William Thornton wrote:
When will the total dismantling of the SBC take place? There was so much concern about liberals no one saw the never ending fight of Cals and Non-cals. From where I view this the Cals are in control of the SBC and the money strings.
Lea wrote:
Well, they DO call him “Kingslayer”…
William Thornton wrote:
William how is he to get the evidence when the entity’s will not answer his questions?
Marie wrote:
Who else can we go to?
Who but Calvin has the Words of Eternal Life?
(For His Speshul Pets only, of course…)
BL wrote:
“Why do you rob banks?”
“Because that’s where the Money is.”
Gram3 wrote:
Uuhhhhmmmmm ……… Just wondering …… Will any of those people you listed know when the rapture happens?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Must be part of the new SBC mission’s strategy?
Gram3 wrote:
All of the SBC churches that I have attend print out the monthly budget and make it available for all church members to see and discuss. Why can’t the SBS entities, including the IMB and NAMB make their yearly budget plans available to SBC affiliate church members, either online or through the state or local associations ………..?
@ William Thornton:
:I have never heard anyone raise a question about the reported LMCO numbers….”
From Pravda:
Rick Patrick says
June 8, 2016 at 2:40 pm
I am glad the numbers are up. However, the news may not be as rosy as it first appears.
I am told that this is not an apples to apples comparison. By that I mean that any dollar received outside the EC distribution of CP dollars is considered LMCO. Therefore, when FBC Orlando took the $1M from CP through the Florida Baptist Convention and gave it directly to IMB, it is all counted as LMCO. And there are other examples.
It is possible that at least some of the increase can be attributed to this kind of shell game, as opposed to a genuine increase in per capita Lottie Moon giving by individual Southern Baptists.
William’s reply:
William Thornton says
June 8, 2016 at 5:00 pm
This is a case where we may have slander afoot. If rick Patrick is implying that IMB deliberately manipulated the numbers, counting direct gifts this year when they did not do so last year, then let’s see the evidence. Slander is sinful. Christians shouldn’t engage in such. Explain please, Rick.
I would love to. You have my e-mail, so let me know. I am flexible! Ann@ Deb:
Celia wrote:
So William lied. This from a former SBC pastor. My goodness.
@ mot:
We have never been at war with Eastasia.
Anyone who’s watched the Calvinization of a church knows what’s going on here. Dismiss all questions and criticisms as gossip, slander, sin and then demand that “facts” be produced even though it’s an elite few who control the distribution of information.
It works like this:
You may say if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck….
which someone like William will reply… You don’t actually have any evidence that that creature is a duck. Where are your facts? Do you have DNA? I happen to know that creature and that creature is a DOG and it is slander for you to say that that creature is a duck. These conspiracy theories are sinful and must stop.
@ mot:
He’ll put some spin on it never fear.
mot wrote:
But, mot ….. That wasn’t a question. That was slander!
@ mot:
Just because they plant churches within blocks of existing churches it doesn’t mean those existing churches are approved Gospel(TM) churches. The biggest mission field for a Calvinist are nonCalvinist churches.
Celia wrote:
I am waiting to see his reply. It will be a doosy I am sure.
Gram3 wrote:
Looking at contributors to the Church, I have to ask did they not require of the pastor and ‘elders’ some reporting through a certified accountant of how their contributions were being dispersed? Without accountability, there are sometimes greater temptations for people to do what is not right and think they will not be caught out. Why put people into the way of temptation in the FIRST place? Seems to me that in a ‘family’ Church, transparency would be a mark of protection and respect for all involved, as working out in the light witnesses to having freedom from temptations and from accusations and discouragement.
Is there some theological reason why the members of the Church would not want the clergy and staff to be operating in the light with all transparency??? Not knowing when you set that up as what is acceptable is like wearing a sign that says ‘Schmuck’ to certain ‘frail’ personalities who need the discipline of accountability to stay on the straight and narrow. Tempting people by allowing secrecy is not exactly responsible behavior for a faith community.
@ mot:
He even referenced that exchange in a reply upthread stating Patrick was speculating sans facts. Which just means Patrick asked a question that William didn’t like.
@ Gram3:
The institutional reason is that the SBC elite believe pew peons to be too stupid to really understand what is happening and what they’re (the elites) doing. It’s all very complicated you see and the elites are so much superior in wisdom and intelligence. If pew peons had facts they might start thinking for themselves and soon you’ve got a revolt on your hands.
Celia wrote:
And the hundreds of thousands of SBC members leaving does not bother them at all. I think only money gets their attention. Let the revolt begin!
Okay, let me get this straight. William says we should provide facts that the IMB and NAMB is misusing funds.
And the other are saying “Provide facts to prove they’re not, because the facts and most of the records have been controlled and hidden.”
So for William’s argument to have merit, the other side has to be true, too. Otherwise it’s a meaningless argument.
In my experience, whenever someone is going to great lengths to hide something, they have something to hide. The burden of proof has to be on the person hiding things to prove they are not, not the other way around.
Gram3 wrote:
A woman can post at Pravda as long as she agrees with the Party line. If a woman were to post a dissenting opinion they go ballistic. You see how they treat men who dissent – when women have tried to dissent in the past it gets creepy nasty they way they would go after her. It doesn’t go on for long because Miller will ban a woman who dissents within a couple of dissenting posts.
Nancy2 wrote:
Surely the date of the rapture is in the same verse where they find Eternal Female Subordination and ESS.
@ Nancy2:
I just noticed a misstatement I made. I asked why attrition and delaying appointments was not part of the problem, but what I meant was why were those actions not considered part of the solution.
There is a good reason why non-profits in general do not release detailed line-item budgets. They do not want you to know how much money is spent on stuff you do not want your money spent on. They know best, little woman…
@ Celia:
There will be no problem if the Trustees would submit audited financials by a firm not associated at all with the Trustees or other SBC interests. Speculation in the face of Trustees doing stuff behind closed doors is not slander.
Gram3 wrote:
Especially if your church is paying for what they are doing.
mot wrote:
Once again, they only care about money, money, money….I became convinced a lot of these guys could care less about the people in the pews when I was in seminary. It’s all about salemanship to a lot of these guys, get those offering plates full!
Celia wrote:
I miss a time that seems like it really never was . I liked the conservative Baptist church. What I don’t like is the constant demonization and politicization during the CR and now the arrogance of Neo Calvinists. Some would wish there was some remorse in all of this conflict. What true remorse can exist when people are so polarized from each other? This Neo Calvinist movement is going to create a generation of “damaged goods” (nones). I hope these nones will not be forgotten as the Neo Calvinists go on creating their perfect churches for perfect people. Max has written this will be a fertile missionary field for those espousing a more loving and grace filled theology, than a legalistic theology combined with a God who only really loves an elect minority ruled by elders. I hope this is so……
Celia wrote:
Gram3 wrote:
Is that verse somewhere in Acts 29? ; ^ )
Celia wrote:
I have wondered, a time or two, what Pravda would do with the TWW women (Dee, Deb, Gram3, Lydia, you, and all of us!) if they had to deal with us all in person. How would they “block” us then?
OT, but that DG tweet that the Deebs linked to is beyond weird. It totally deserves this response:
https://twitter.com/JohnRThackerJr/status/747577170084536320
Nancy2 wrote:
Wonder how many women regularly post there at Prvada?
Nancy2 wrote:
Yes, verse 666.
Nancy2 wrote:
A condo in Siberia…
Ken F wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katorga
William Thornton wrote:
Goodness, I was at SBCvoices for some time. I really had trouble controlling my upset during discussions on ‘Disciplining Children’. I really got into it with people over the ESS heresy, which was not at all appreciated. And I may have actually said a few other things that upset the powers that be, I admit. But I did last for some time. I have no hard feelings about being banned, because it was the legitimate choice of the moderators. I also blog, believe it or not, over at Denny Burk’s blog. I say what I think, and about a third of the time, it gets removed (I’m moderated). It always surprises the heck out of me when I am allowed to post there sometimes, I am not in sync with many of the commenters. Lately, over the ESS posts there, I was moderated out totally (I wonder why :))
Not in trouble yet at Imonk, which I love dearly. And WADE has always put up with me graciously. My all-time favorite is PATHEOS …. love the diversity there.
Max wrote:
MAX, I’ve heard about Act 29:666! Something about ‘suffer not a witch to live’ …. seriously misogynistic, that
Christiane wrote:
Here’s a little music to set the mood, from my all-time favorite band …… ha, the Hotel California band!
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=YouTube+The+Eagles+Witchy+Woman&qpvt=YouTube+The+Eagles+Witchy+Woman&FORM=VDRE
Ken F wrote:
Okay, I’m going to spin this: do you really think they would go so far as to try and start planter churches in Siberia to escape from us?
__
“Disconcerted Concelment, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
Q. What 501(c)3 groups believe Calvinism is Christianity?”
hmmm…
(a possible short list) :
SBTS
http://www.sbts.edu/
TGC
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/
T4G
http://t4g.org/
Lifeway
http://www.lifeway.com/
PCA
http://www.pcanet.org/
9 Marks
https://9marks.org/
Acts29
http://www.acts29.com/
SGC
http://www.sovereigngrace.com/
(your 501(c)3 organization goes here, perhaps?)
hmmm…
could b.
A Religious Darkness is sweeping the ‘ChurchLand’ of America?
Ya think?
The calm before the storm, perhaps.
(sadface)
Through shrewdness they will cause craft and deceit to succeed by John Calvin’s influences; and they will greatly magnify themselves in their hearts, and they will seek to absorb many churches while they are at ease. They may by concealment, even even oppose the Lord’s commission by their perilous doctrines, but their plans will be seriously frustrated.
Stay tuned.
Carry on my fellow Christian laborer in the field, the’re be reward when you are done, lay your weary self in the blossom of Christ, and don’t ya cry no mo…
Da ‘Gatez Oh! Hell’ ™, shall certainly not prevail…
hum, hum, hum, Jesus got da whole of His church, in His hands, da of His whole church, in His hands…
ATB
Sopy
__
Gospel relief: Ruth Brown – “He’s Got The Whole World In His Hands…”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VEc9637-tug
🙂
—
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
HUG, have you ever read “The Endless Steppe” by Esther Hautzig? Autobio by a Jewish girl who grew up on a Russian steppe – her family was considered and enemy of the state.
Nancy2 wrote:
Nancy is that what those of us are–enemies of the state-that do not support the radical elements of the SBC–submission of women-Eternal Subordination, etc.
@ Nancy2:
🙂
Bless her heart, there’s a complementarian woman over at Christianity Today bemoaning the fact that there are very few female complementarian voices in the ESS/gender debate. She’s not getting much sympathy. Did she really expect that Puper, Grudem, et al. would really want to hear from or listen to a woman? Her own theology is biting her.
mot wrote:
Maybe they have some blog spies making a list and checking it twice!
Nancy2 wrote:
I would not doubt this. These guys are extremely paranoid and holders of the TRUTH. Dissent must be stopped.
Patriciamc wrote:
Bo hoo. Ask her if she rinse all the soap bubbles off the glasses.
Nancy2–several years ago when a NC SBC Association kicked a church out because they dared to call a female pastor the associations position was it was done to have a :”restoration to doctrinal purity and a renewed sense of unity.”
This is what some of the more FUNDAMENTAL SBC leaders are focused on–Lockstep doctrinal positions.
mot wrote:
Yeah. A couple of deacons at our church shake hands and chit chat with my husband, but they pretend I don’t exist. I’m outspoken, drive a stick-shift, open-carry, and vehemently disagree with the BFM article xviii. I left the “married couples” SS class because the wives are not allowed to speak in that class. I’m definitely on the hit list!
Nancy2 wrote:
LOL. I did note her use of the word “winsome.”
Nancy2 wrote:
Seriously??? The women are stupid enough to put up with that? I know that might be a bit harsh, but come on!
Patriciamc wrote:
Lets see the year is 2016 and wives are not allowed to speak. If I was a woman in that class i would talk whenever I wanted to and they would have to physically throw me out.
Nancy2 wrote:
If I ever start a church, would you be the first charter member? 🙂
BL wrote:
It would be an honor!
Nancy2 wrote:
You’re a hit on my list.
Patriciamc wrote:
It’s worse. Women are not allowed to speak at business meetings.
Example: If the female Wed. night GA teacher wants to take her class on a church funded trip, she has to ask a man. The man presents the idea at the Men’s meeting (the pre-business meeting meeting), if the men approve, the moderator presents it to the church for a vote at the business meeting.
mot wrote:
Oh, I talked plenty after class …… some of my comments sent some of the men for a loop. I am definitely no theologian, but I know the Bible better than some of the men. I have taken 2 NT classes through a Bible college, and I taught the OT, in detail, to teenagers at our previous church.
BL wrote:
That is such a miserable way to treat any human being, taking away their voice . . . it’s dehumanizing and degrading. When will those ministers learn to treat women like whole human persons ?
That is such an unhealthy environment for those women AND for their husbands who think that arrangement is ‘Christian’. Abuse is two-edged. It harms the victims AND degrades the humanity of the perpetrators.
How long, O Lord? How long?
Nancy2 wrote:
Like children, women are meant to be seen, but not heard, is their view. Except they may not actually believe this about persons aged 0 thru 11 years of age. Are women children and in some cases lower than children?
Nancy2 wrote:
Hi NANCY TWO,
before they exterminate you, challenge them to just one time ONE TIME, switch the rule and let the women speak and the men stay silent ….. I have a feeling, if they took the bait, the Golden Rule will win the day for those ladies. One class should be enough to do the trick.
I don’t believe that these men understand what they are doing. Maybe the only way to realize it is for them to go through it themselves, and then re-evaluate what they have imposed on other human persons in the Name of Christ.
Triple Dog Dare ‘Em …. go for it …. it might work 🙂
Mark wrote:
About the time we transferred membership to this church, my husband had gone in deep and started shutting me out. I called him on it and asked him if I had turned into a people of animated furniture. He left ….. but we went to a marriage counselor for a few months and got things straightened out between the two of us, but he still attends this church – I haven’t been since the last Sunday in Feb. He admits that he doesn’t notice the things that I have such a problem with, probably because he is a man.
(When we were going through the marriage troubles, I found TWW when I was searching for justification for my feelings and beliefs! Yay! Thank you, Deb and Dee!)
There are some good people at this church, and regardless of what my husband does, I am going to have to find a different church, or quit altogether. Sometimes I still wonder about my husband’s true beliefs, and I have some health problems. For the last few months, I have been battling with depression because of all of that. The last thing I need is to have a bunch of “Godly” men continue to treat me like a second class citizen because of the plumbing God gave me! I will not allow it!
Christiane wrote:
Amen, and I think cracks are appearing in the neo-Cal/comp movement.
Christiane wrote:
Never happen ….. better odds on convincing the ladies to go on strike!
Nancy2 wrote:
‘it is known’:
no red-blooded American male can ever resist the Triple Dog Dare
Christiane wrote:
BTW, at my church, it’s the deacons, not the pastor. I have known this pastor and his family my whole life. He truly is a great man of God. He’s just an ole country boy who treats his wife and daughters (all women) with the utmost respect. He retired a year ago, but he still speaks from the pulpit often. The search committee still has not found a replacement. They haven’t even invited anyone in for a trial sermon. We have had guest speakers who quote Piper, Dever, and Platt ……. scary!
William Thornton wrote:
I’m glad to hear this, William. But the question is: Does the IMB employ NDAs? More specifically, were the veteran missionaries required to sign them as a condition of receiving their retirement incentive? Your personal objection to the use of NDAs means as much to that question as my objection does.
You’ve said above that, if we want to know the answer to this, we should ask those involved. But if the returnees have signed NDAs, then they probably can’t tell us so, on pain of losing their VRI. And if the IMB has required the NDAs, they most certainly won’t be talking. So, how else can we find out?
Please consider this question whenever you have the time. I realize that you have Lottie-Moon-gate to deal with now. (Or would that be Patrick-gate?)
Christiane wrote:
If the dare comes from a woman like me, their chicken blood shines through.
Patriciamc wrote:
Aimee Byrd’s blog is certainly one indication of that. Good to see. 🙂
Nancy2 wrote:
Your pastor sounds wonderful. I’m sorry you are losing him. Sounds like this Church has been your ‘family’ for a very long time and the whole thing sounds so very sad. I understand this kind of thing is being repeated in many Churches, and causing a great deal of sadness and pain. You don’t deserve this.
__
Calvinesta Jackbootz: “Up In Proverbial ‘Reform’d’ Smoke, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
…SBTS Graduierender Studenten Sie werden ermächtigt eine verborgene Theologie zu tragen, gehen und somit fruchtbare Söhne der reformierten ! -Field Marshal Mohler [1]
March, March, March…
(grin)
hahahahahahaha
Sopy
__
Notz: [1] Approximate Translation: …Graduating SBTS students you are hereby authorized to carry a concealed theology, go and therefore be fruitful sons of the ‘Reformed ‘!
;~)
—
Nancy2 wrote:
Get creative. Let the wives place tape over their own mouths to protest the abuse. A little drama puts some light on what is REALLY going on ….
believe me, after what you are sharing, I don’t think anything is going to hurt, and sometimes lighting a candle in a special way will wake people up …. use teaching aids …. buy some wide tape for the girls and TAKE PICTURES !!!!! and post them! It can’t hurt. It might help. 🙂
Christiane wrote:
We transferred to this church in 2013, but the pastor is a different story. Many years ago, my grandmother’s brother owned a service station in town. Before this pastor “answered the call”, he was one of my great uncle’s mechanics. His sil is my mechanic, and I graduated high school with his daughter. His wife’s family lived in the “holler” about a mile below where I live. He only lives a few miles from us in our rural county. We cross paths often outside of church.
When my husband was out of commission after falling from a ladder in April, this pastor (72 years old!) and his daughter came out and mowed our 3.8 acre yard. Afterwards, we had a discussion about my ten-foot-tall-bullet-proof-hard-headed husband behaving himself and listening to his doctors’ advice. This pastor backed me completely.
His retirement is a great loss to the church, but I will never lose him. He will always hold a special place in my heart. I am only sorry that he could not convince the men at this church to allow the women to be more involved!
Christiane wrote:
There’s only about 5 women in that church who would dare do that, but I have a good stash of duct tape. They do say it will fix everything!
@ Nancy2:
Wow, NANCY TWO
even five women can embarrass the BeDriscoll out of those men if they use some humor and some some good will …. in this sense: why let these men go on doing the wrong thing as it's bad for them to mistreat their wives by silencing AND it's also very bad as example for boys coming up in the Church to see that kind of thing happening.
if it were me, I'd organize the women to go in, sit down, and SING … no talking, but a rousing chorus of 'Will the Circle Be Unbroken' might be nice … and sing it loud enough and clear enough and strong enough so that the WHOLE Church can hear
Christiane wrote:
You know, I can’t think of a single instance where Jesus told women not to speak. He actually talked theology to the woman at the well in public, and she talked back! Of course, Jesus is utterly beside the point to the people at this church (and to other neo-cals).
Max wrote:
Hmmm…..anecdotal evidence. Would that be anything like circumstantial evidence, which by the way, has put many a person behind bars? What other kind of evidence is William Thornton expecting? DNA? Or what about taped evidence? How about if parishioners start wearing wires when they talk privately with pastors and elders behind closed doors. Would that be sufficient evidence for Mr. Thornton?
Max wrote:
At the expense of sounding like HUG, I’m going to say this fellas are like Useful Idiots.
Nancy2 wrote:
Ha! Me too. Is that on a list? The funny thing is most men seem to think its grand for some reason when women drive a standard.
I don’t open carry but I do have a gun. Course I’m also single so that’s another category altogether.
Darlene wrote:
No evidence will satisfy William. His “friends” would turn on him in a heart beat if he began posting the truth about the SBC. No more postings at Pravda would be his first punishment.
mot wrote:
Kind of like what is happening here? William Thorton, who has the resources and knowledge to answer truthfully is being swarmed. There is no Calvinist conspiracy folks and William is not Calvinist.
He is simply a non-Calvinist who is telling you the truth but is evidently not what anyone here wants to hear. It’s one reason I no longer read this site.
You write of William spinning things yet you who have no contact or knowledge of the IMB have so many wrong conspiracy theories my head is still swimming.
What was David Platt supposed to do with the deficit so high? Keep spending money they do not have? He did not cause this problem, former leaders non-Calvinists caused this money fiasco.
Debbie
You have commented that there is no conspiracy on a post in which an event that fits the paradigm actually occurred. Your words ring hollow in this instance. If one posts a comment on a blog, one should be prepared to have those who disagree with their comment to respond. We allow you to comment even now, after calling me *stupid* and standing by it. So, I would say that we allow all sorts of comemnts that many others would not.
Debbie Kaufman wrote:
People are asking for hard evidence by way of financials and transparency, all of which is not happening by the organization.
Bridget wrote:
Indeed. If William will only point me towards the spreadsheets I would be happy to go over them. Because they are all readily available, right? And we can interview the missionaries who were sent home, because it was all ‘voluntary’ which means there was no pressure or gag order or anything like that, because that would be crazy and not voluntary, right?
right?
Debbie: You can keep your head in the sand but the SBC has been taken over by the Calvinists, You also know that you would not be as welcome at Voices if you dissented more against the major voices there.
Sorry, but almost all comments are welcome here, including yours.
dee wrote:
Try calling Dave Miller stupid at Voices and see if you are allowed to continue to post your comments.
@ Debbie Kaufman:
There is no problem with Calvinism in the SBC so therefore all of the people who have experienced problems are stupid, liars, and haters.
And how dare anyone question William Thornton? He’s like an elder or something and the peasants aren’t supposed to ask questions of such a great man.
@ Debbie Kaufman:
The non disclosure agreements are not conspiracy and neither are the accounts of the missionaries who saw the VRI as not voluntary at all.
I know now that William has come out against NDAs he’s going to be putting up a post at Pravda about how he thinks the entities should not be using them. Can’t wait to see that conversation.
Celia wrote:
Yep, we are just making all of this tragedy up–NOT!
Poor old William!!
Celia wrote:
Eeeeeyeah. If his post gets put up and stands, and if the monitored comments are not deleted!
Lea wrote:
One day when I was 14, my dad took half the crew to the tobacco barn to house the tobacco that we already had loaded on the scaffolds. He left me alone in the field with 5 men, to load the rest of the tobacco – because I would tell him if the men goofed around, and I could eyeball a field and make a good estimate of how many scaffolds we needed.
The only truck my dad left with us was a 3-speed column shift …… choke …… manual everything! None of the men could drive it, and we had to have the truck to pull the scaffolds! They were quite embarrassed when they found out the 14 year old girl could could drive the column shift. Sometimes it is beneficial when a family expects a girl to work like a boy.
dee wrote:
It appears Debbie stopped by and tried to come to William’s rescue. Surely a true SBC man like William does not need the help of a woman. William better not let his friends at Pravda find out about this. I am laughing when I type this.
Nancy2 wrote:
I learned on an automatic but when I was 17 my dad bought me a cute little sportscar (used) that was a standard. Took me about a week to get the hang of it on hills (man, there are a lot of hills around here!) but now I love them. My current car I bought just because they are more fun to drive, particularly in a cheaper car.
My mechanic complements me on driving a standard ever time I get an oil change, kind of hilariously.
@ mot:
If anybody had a way to go back through the many years in SBC Blogdom where people have given their stories about Calvinists taking over churches and put it all together some people would still deny that the Calvinists are doing anything wrong. There have been thousands of accounts through the years from all over the country. But to someone like Debbie those people are all liars and haters who just woke up one day and decided to hate on Calvinists. She’s been attacking people online for years who have dared to tell their stories about bad Calvinists.
Celia wrote:
Yes, Debbie is willingly blind to the facts. The shame is on her!
Dee: I have no idea the comment you are thinking of, but I don’t hold grudges for years. I might have said what you said was stupid which is totally different than calling you stupid and I did and still do stand by that. This has become more a hate site than an informative site as it was in the beginning.
Celia: Thank you for completely rewriting what I said.
Lea wrote:
Ha. More fun until you get in a traffic jam, but great on snow and ice!
I started with my grandpa’s mule team, graduated to a gasoline powered 1947 John Deere tractor, then column shift truck. My first car was a 1973 3-speed on floor Chevy Vega – the paint job cost more than the car. My current car is a 1999. I bought it new. It has 270,000 miles on it with the original clutch still in it! Hard to find straight shifts now, I’m driving it until it falls apart!
@ Debbie Kaufman:
I know exactly what you said because WordPress keeps a record of comments that I can look up. You called me stupid. back in 2013 you said some derogatory things about this blog, etc. Still, we let you comment. Now you are escalating, calling this a hate site. I think the time for constructive dialog on your part is at an end.
No further comments on your part will be allowed unless there is a significant change of heart.
@ Debbie Kaufman:
I don’t know how to respond to your comment, Debbie. So we are more of a hate site than an informative site? Tell that to the folks in Rocky Mount who are reeling from the sudden resignation of an abusive pastor and all of the church staff. We have come to their defense as we proclaim the truth about that situation.
As a Southern Baptist, I want answers regarding the contributions my husband and I give to the Cooperative Program. We have been generous in the past, but we are becoming skeptical. What we want is accountability.
How tragic that our friendship has drastically deteriorated. Here is a comment you left on our blog a few years ago.
You wrote:
Debbie Kaufman wrote:
And bitter?
Would you please define ‘hate’ for me and then provide at least 10 examples of said hate from this thread or the OP?
@ BL:
This may be seen as a stirring it up comment but you wouldn’t be surprised who one of BFF on the internet is. Think syrupy sweet passive agressive type.
mot wrote:
Read between the lines. *Incentives* sounds like the way some Christian-styled mafia would work. I wonder what the incentives were. And I wonder why a gag order was issued to all those missionaries who accepted those incentives.
Nancy2 wrote:
I’m not a Southern Baptist, but hasn’t it already been said that these Big Boy’s salaries haven’t been disclosed and that they have every right to hide their incomes?
Darlene wrote:
Privilege of being the Elect of the Elect.
dee wrote:
The Debbie Kaufman show has been cancelled.
We now return to The Wartburg Watch at its regularly scheduled time.
Celia wrote:
The Party Can Do No Wrong, Comrade.
Ees Party Line!
mot wrote:
AKA Purity of Ideology.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
William Thornton sure went silent pretty quick like. I guess we were too hard on him by asking legitimate questions that he seems to be the only one that can answer. But how dare we question anything in the SBC. All is well!
1 comment not approved
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
🙂
@ BL:
Here’s the deal. Debbie was fine with us until we stepped on her sacred cow. That sacred cow happens to be hardcore Calvinists who she personally likes. For example, Tom Ascol of The Founders.
Here is my bottom line. We are all open to critique. No one group or person is above questioning. We are all sinners, including those who we admire. It took me a long time to fully embrace that line of thinking. The moment that we are unable to listen to reasoned critique (and I believe we do reasoned critique here) is the moment we have to look inside our souls and wonder why.
That is why we allow people to strongly critique us, calling us names, accusing us of all sorts of things like slander, etc. We believe we must be open. However, after a person has gotten their cards on the table it is time to say good-bye. So, for Debbie, she has called us stupid, accused of being a hate blog and even more behind the scenes.
We get it. It does not have to be said over and over.
Now back to, as HUG would say, our regular programming.
dee wrote:
I knew that Debbie had lost her compass when she called TWW a hate blog. 😉
Debbie Kaufman wrote:
What a piece of work Debbie is. “Hate site”. Debbie, the only hate I seem to detect here is from you. Total projection.
BL wrote:
Of course she can’t provide a single one. It’s just thought-stopping invective, that’s all. An attempt to shut down that which one does not wish to hear through the use of nasty words, “stupid”, “hate”, etc. These are the common tactics of a very small and very spoiled child.