"What a day @IDCRaleigh. Couldn't imagine a more edifying/encouraging day. Grateful for how the Lord used C.J. #grace"
Tweet by Tony Merida, Pastor at Imago Dei Raleigh
"@Tony Merida. @IDCRaleigh. Good Lord. @CJMahaney should not be preaching anywhere. Look at this man's record."
Patrick Henderson's Response to Merida's Tweet
As the Neo-Cals prepare for their bi-annual gathering, Together for the Gospel, one of their leaders continues to garner bad press — this time in the highly conservative WORLD Magazine.
C.J. Mahaney, founder of Covenant Life Church, figures prominently in an article published yesterday regarding the recent arrest of Larry Ellis Caffery. It begins as follows:
The day before Easter, members of Covenant Life Church learned police had arrested one of their former children’s ministry volunteers on charges of child sexual abuse. The news cast a familiar pall over the Gaithersburg, Md., congregation already struggling under the cloud of past child sex abuse allegations within its membership.
On March 16, Montgomery County, Md., authorities charged Larry Ellis Caffery, 66, with nine counts of child sexual abuse and two counts of false imprisonment. His arrest comes as the threat of a new class-action lawsuit looms over Covenant Life Church (CLC) founder C.J. Mahaney and leaders within Sovereign Grace Churches (SGC,), formerly Sovereign Grace Ministries, over allegations they covered up accusations of child sexual abuse involving church members decades earlier.
A 2012 civil lawsuit alleged Mahaney, CLC, SGC, and others covered up sexual abuse in SGC churches, including CLC, the former flagship church of the SGC coalition, of which it is no longer a member. A Montgomery County judge dismissed the case in 2013 on technical grounds but did not rule on the merits of the case. Mahaney denied the charges against him. In 2014, a Maryland jury convicted former CLC youth ministry volunteer Nathaniel Morales on five counts of sexual molestation related to events in the 1980s and 1990s.
As you read the next portion of the article, keep in mind that C.J. Mahaney, who pastored CLC for 27 years, turned over the reins to Joshua Harris on September 18, 2004, and maintained his office in the CLC facility until Sovereign Grace Ministries headquarters was relocated to Louisville, Kentucky in 2012. Denny Burk shared the announcement in April 2012, and the relocation happened several months later. The move is difficult to document because it appears much of the information pertaining to it has been deleted from the Sovereign Grace Churches website.
The WORLD article went on to state:
In 2004, Caffery began volunteering in the CLC children’s ministry. He served every year, with the exception of 2005, until 2010, according to church records. According to his autobiography, Caffery has been married twice, and in 2005, when the book was first published, had two young children.
Most of the charges against Caffery are felonies. The false imprisonment charge does not necessarily mean an alleged victim or victims were locked up.
“False imprisonment would be when someone goes into a room with another and does not let them out,” Korionoff said.
CLC leaders have expressed sorrow over the situation—while trying to distance the church from the alleged crimes.
“I’m saddened by what’s taken place,” CLC executive pastor Mark Mitchell told Washington, D.C., radio host Kojo Nnamdi during a March 31 interview about Caffery and the abuse cover-up allegations. “And I’m saddened that another person has been the victim of criminal activity. I’m grateful that it did not take place on church premises.”
Although CLC is not under investigation and requires volunteers working with minors to pass criminal background checks, a former SGC leader turned ministry critic, Brent Detwiler, contends church leaders should have known Caffery posed a potential threat, arguing he said as much in his autobiography.
Caffery confessed in the book that he worried issues from his past might cause him to abuse a daughter if he ever had one. Nnambi cited that passage in the book and asked Mitchell if any CLC pastors knew about it.
According to Mitchell, a “senior pastor at that time” received a copy of the book and passed it on to pastor Robin Boisvert for review and possible sale in the church bookstore. At the time of the book’s release, Joshua Harris was CLC’s senior pastor, having succeeded Mahaney in 2004.
Mitchell told Nnamdi that Boisvert gave the book a cursory read and “at that time he did not pick up the detail.” But, according to Nalle, Boisvert did note the “critical tone” of one passage that was in contrast to the book’s theme of grace. He recommended the church not carry the book because “our bookstore does not generally carry members’ self-published testimonies,” Nalle said.
Caffery continued to work in the children’s ministry for another five years.
“I am sure that if that pastor had seen the lines you describe it would have been addressed,” Harris told me via email.
Currently a student at Regent College in Vancouver, Canada, Harris has “vague” recollections of Caffery’s book. He had no knowledge of Caffery’s arrest until contacted by WORLD.
How many more sex abuse allegations will come out of CLC and other Sovereign Grace Churches?
None of these shocking developments seem to be affecting the true believers. As a case in point, a church located very close to my home here in Raleigh called Imago Dei enthusiastically welcomed C.J. Mahaney last Sunday. He delivered one of his canned sermons – Cravings and Conflicts. Some of you may remember that before we launched our blog, Dee and I attended Sovereign Grace Church in Apex, where Mahaney preached this exact same sermon. It was January 25, 2009 (link). If you click on the link, you will see the following:
NOTE: This is a recording of the same sermon delivered at another time and place. There were technical issues recording the sermon at Sovereign Grace Church.
As far as we are concerned, the 'technical issue' was that Mahaney spent so much of his allotted time talking about the Duke vs Maryland basketball game which he had attended th day before that he did a poor job with the message. That's why it was replaced with another one (in our ever to be humble opinions). This was our only experience in hearing C.J. in person, and we are surprised that so many Neo-Cals regard him as their hero. After all, the highest level of education Mahaney achieved was a high school diploma, which he wears as a badge of honor.
Imago Dei's Pastor for Preaching and Vision, Tony Merida, who also serves as an Associate Professor of Preaching at SEBTS, sent out this Tweet last Sunday (see screen shot below):
As you can see, Tony Merida got some pushback on Twitter. Dee tells me that Tony has now blocked her.
No doubt it's exceedingly difficult for your hero to be criticized. In his Curriculum Vitae, Merida lists his heroes as follows:
Tony Merida earned all of his advanced degrees from New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, and his dissertation topic was “The Christocentric Emphasis of John Piper’s Expository Preaching”. Is it any wonder he is "Pastor of Preaching and Vision" — just like his hero Piper?
Tony Merida's reading list is very revealing, with Mahaney's books figuring prominently on the list. Perhaps Mahaney and gang will return the favor and promote Merida's lastest book Ordinary: How to Turn the World upside down at T4G2016. That seems to be the name of the game in the Neo-Cal crowd – you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours…
Folks, this is the predicament conservative Southern Baptists are facing here in the Triangle area. So many churches that should appeal to us are driving us away because they are aligning themselves with Mahaney and gang. I am so grateful that Dee and I began seeing this trend in the latter part of 2008. Since that time the situation has gotten worse. A couple year ago C.J. spoke at a well-established Baptist church here in Raleigh. Mahaney and the pastor who invited him are good friends and served together as Council Members of The Gospel Coalition. Of course, Mahaney resigned his position about a year after that speaking engagement. It was during that visit that I found out from my daughter that Mahaney addressed N.C. State's Cru group (she was a Cru member and has since graduated).
Why the incredible allegiance of the Neo-Cals to C.J. Mahaney? Perhaps the bottom line is that Mahaney has purchased their loyalty. After all, we have him personally giving at least $100,000 to Southern Seminary, and the organization he headed, Sovereign Grace Ministries, donating at least $100,000 to SBTS, not to mention smaller amounts given by Covenant Life Church. Then we have the funds given to Wayne Grudem so that he could do additional research. Thabiti Anybwile recently admitted in a Tweet that Mahaney donated $5,000 to his church after a hurricane struck. Furthermore, it's no telling how much money Mahaney and SGM (now SGC) donated to 9Marks. And, of course, T4G has turned into quite a cash cow. Has anyone considered how much money is being raked in through registration fees, book sales, etc.? What happens to all that money? Just like members of Covenant Life Church and SGM churches who had no idea where their donations were going, T4G participants wouldn't dare challenge their leaders.
As more and more people come forward who have been terribly hurt by Mahaney and gang, we are stunned by the silence of the Neo-Cal crowd. There certainly appears to be a dearth of discernment among those who belong to the 'Mahaney Admiration Society'. They choose to believe the best about C.J. and discount the testimonies of those who express pain as a result of being in Mahaney's network of churches.
Fortunately, some are speaking out against C.J. Mahaney in public forums like Facebook. For instance, here are some screen shots of comments left on T4G's Facebook page:
I'll be checking back to see if they have been removed.
In just a few short years, C.J. Mahaney fled the megachurch he co-founded, moved ministry headquarters from Maryland to Kentucky, stepped down as president of the church-planting network he established, planted a church that got kicked out of a local Christian school and now rents hotel space for its services, and became a Southern Baptist pastor (probably because his Pastors College no longer gets seminary perks). While his ministry has gone backwards BIG TIME, he is more popular than ever with the Neo-Cal crowd.
What is wrong with this picture?
First?
now to read
First!
First? Modern day money changer-CJ et al?
So I thought I’d take a look at Tony Merida’s book “Ordinary: How to Turn the World Upside Down” and see who endorses it.
On the back cover of the hardcover we have Tim Keller.
On the inside of the hardcover we have endorsements from:
* J.D. Greear
* D.A. Horton
* Jeff Iorg (president of Golden Gate Seminary)
* Chris Marlow
* Russell D. Moore (he who eschewed the word “evangelical” recently because he didn’t like that it was linked to a particular presidential candidate, but who said people should use patriarchy instead of complementarianism)
* Harvey Turner (network director of Acts 29 West)
And in the Kindle version, I see these endorsements in addition to the others:
* Daniel Akin (President SBTS)
* Bryan Chapell
* Derwin L. Gray
On Tony Merida dot Net, there is this endorsement:
* David Platt
Quite a close-knit little bunch there, I’d say. A lot of “scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours” going on.
Just scrolling through the T4G Facebook page reminds me of why I don’t want to have anything to do with those men and their god. They don’t live in the same world as the rest of us.
“He delivered one of his canned sermons – Cravings and Conflicts”
Again, I have to wonder if he is describing himself more than anything else…
@ mirele:
I have the very same reaction. It's the 'exclusive' Calvinista Club. I don't believe this is what Jesus had in mind at all.
@ siteseer:
Guess what Mahaney will be discussing next week at T4G…
Job (from the Old Testament)
@ mirele:
Mierele you are a joy! I’m so glad you are on our side. There would be a gap that couldn’t be filled!
They are all frauds?
Seriously, they are just a mutual admiration society and echo chamber. Look at Dever taking in Mahaney when he fled from his own church’s discipline. How does that make any sense at all by their OWN teaching? That tells you this is a cult of personality, driven by delusions of grandeur.
@ Loren Haas:
There's a reason why they have predominantly young congregations…
The word I'm thinking of starts with a 'G", and it's definitely NOT Gospel.
Allow me to spell it out… G-U-L-L-I-B-L-E
So Mark Mitchell says that he’s “saddened” that someone was the victim of a crime. Shouldn’t he be infuriated? He also noted that he’s glad it didn’t take place on church property. Well thank heavens! That is the top priority, now is it. (shaking my head)
Deb wrote:
You say Jesus; they think Paul and Calvin.
Never heard of Tony Merida. Reading his Twitter feed is revealing. He appears to be a “minor leaguer” in the Christian celebrity conference circuit, desperately hoping to get called up to the “big leagues.” He is busy running around the country speaking at insignificant conferences. He is currently promoting a conference he will be speaking at in May called “The Gospel-Centered Church Conference!” A good sign of how far Evangelical Christianity in the USA has fallen is when you are holding conferences on how to have a gospel-centered conference.
He has figured out the obvious – if you want to run with the big dogs you need to constantly suck up to them. Thus, the opening of his pulpit to the blackmailer and sexual abuse cover-up specialist, CJ Mahaney, to speak at his church and then loudly and proudly proclaim to the world that he has done so.
Another sign of the false humility/narcissism of these men is their tweets which say “so humbled to speak at X” and “grateful for the wonderful hospitality of famous person X.” Or, “I’m so fired up to preach at X” and “Getting insanely excited to preach at X, don’t miss it!”
And of course, there are the obligatory quotes from the celebrities he idolizes.
I can’t take it anymore. I am beginning to understand why A.W. Pink spent the latter part of his life secluded at Stornoway, Isle of Lewis, Outer Hebrides, Scotland.
Deb wrote:
Heaven forbid they question what they are being taught. They haven’t read or heard what being a “Berean” is.
Agree they are gullible, and perhaps naive. I wonder though, if there is not an element of spiritual,intellectual inertia.
Our society places great value on, often seeks out the professional ——. We have financial advisors, accountants, coaches, mentors, life groups,etc. If someone has written a book, or held a seminar, they are considered an expert. Why not place our faith in the professional laity? After all if endless books, seminars, articles, sermons , constantly hammer us on how difficult and complex the Christian life is, it would seem fitting in having a professional manage it.
There are many things about the neo-cals which support the assumption that they are a good old boys network, but book endorsements are not really one of them. In the Christian world, books written on a popular level are almost always going to be endorsed by writers of a similar theological strain as the author of the book being endorsed. So if Steven Furtick writes a book you can expect names like Perry Noble, Stovall Seems, TD Jakes, etc. A Rachel Held Evans book will likely be endorsed by Nadia Bolz-Weber, Tony Jones, Phyllis Tickle and Scot McKnight. Endorsements help potential buyers get a grip on the perspective of an author. I would venture to say most people read the names on an endorsement rather than the endorsement itself. Therefore the recurrence of the same names on the neo-cal books doesn’t really tell us anything unique about them.
Oh, trust me, the word “Berean” is a part of their vocabulary. In those circles, however, we used it for “compare other Christian thinking to Calvinism and find it wanting”. :-/
Also, don’t underestimate the draw to churches and leaders like this, by people who think most other Christian churches are too wishy-washy. There are pople who to 9M churches because they *want* top-down leadership, fixed gender roles, and scolding of the wider culture. They think that is “authentic” Christianity, and unless the side effects hit them directly it’s hard to give that up.
@ Eeyore:
Not having travelled in Calvinista circles, I was not aware being a “Berean” was to prop up Calvinist doctrine.
Ugh.
I understand there are other components that draw people to rigid theology.
To answer the title question, no. I do not think there is a dearth of discernment. Let's not patronize and treat the T4$ cronies or Merida or anyone else like intellectual infants. They know exactly what they are doing, and they "discern" just fine. They are just corrupt, money-loving, anti-christs. Since when has ethics ever had anything to do with how these men live, the choices they make, or the friends they pimp?
@ Todd Wilhlem:
You don't remember reading this post over at The Gospel Coalition website? 😉
Know Your Southern Bapists: Tony Merida
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
I keep wondering how in the world character, integrity, honesty and ethics became obsolete for Christians and they give themselves a pass ‘cos they are sinners’ and either elect or have purchased fire insurance, anyway.
All we see going on feeds some need or want on the part of the charlatan and the follower. The charlatans won’t change as they have an ego and financial investment but the followers get something too. That is where I focus. Often it is as simple as belonging somewhere or being part of what they see as cool.
@ Todd Wilhlem:
Merida is representative of what is coming from SBTS. However, Merida is one of the lucky double dippers. He must have been an Akin son friend with Baptist 21 dollars or something.
Moore was a big double dipper as Dean and teaching pastor at Highview. It is so easy when all you do is speak on stage. There are plenty of sermons at your fingertips and you don’t have to deal with actual people. Just impart your spiritual knowledge for indoctrination. The pew sitters are thrilled to have a celebrity from the seminary.
Yes, you can I imagine what it is like here when it comes to Christendom. One has to swim the Tiber or Limmet to escape it. I even looked to see if there was a Quaker meeting here but could find nothing. And I am not a pacifist! I just want quiet w/ no politics or big egos.
@ Deb:
Note who wrote that: Trevin Wax. One of the worst sycophants. One of Merida’s quotes Wax published:
“Express love to the marginalized in real, authentic, Christ-like ways.”
Except to child molestation victims of Mahaneys Shepherding cult?
“Larry Ellis Caffery, 66, with nine counts of child sexual abuse and two counts of false imprisonment”
Dear God, if this is what is known about this man, how many other incidents have gone unreported and unaccounted for ???
Harboring active paedophiles is not a Christian work of mercy, it is a mark of a people who see themselves even above the law of Christ that condemns the heinous acts of those who bring this harm on innocents . . . ‘youth minister’ was simply a portal for a wolf to enter the fold where the lambs were supposed to be safe and nourished.
God have mercy on the people who are still vulnerable to this lot who shelter the wolfs at the expense of their lambs . . . God have mercy on the victims to come.
Celebrations of people who fostered cover ups is a sign that the same kind of horror might be entertained among the celebrants. And it’s like a huge announcement to all the ‘wolves’ out there that there exists a ‘safe place’ for them to practice the unspeakable sin and to be protected and shielded by the ‘leadership’.
I am Catholic. I have seen how my own Church has struggled with this horror. People need to get real.
Paedophiles are very sick people, and ‘helping’ them into the lamb fold is perpetuating their sickness. Hiding their sin? By intimidating victims and their families? I think ‘leaders’ who do this, and those who celebrate these ‘leaders’, have joined to evidence of their own deep sickness of soul.
Mae wrote:
The problem is how one is taught early on to approach scripture. If it has been positioned as part of the Trinity, with a determined God filter or Paul on par with Jesus and/or literal, then being a Berean is reduced to arguing proof texts in Romans.
I got stuck in that trap. Ironically, a Prof at an obscure college pointed this out to me many years ago. His contention was that it is a big waste of time to discuss scripture with say, a Calvinist. (And others, too)
Their goal is not better understanding but to control the interpretation. Besides, we are not saved by scripture but by Christ. If all we have been taught is determinism then that is our reading filter.
They ruin the beauty of scripture. They turn it into a big club or weapon to control.
@ Todd Wilhlem:
@ Lydia:
@ Deb:
Great observation! I never thought of that.
When I was at CLC, I saw people worshiping C.J., and sadly things haven't changed. (ed.) Many folks there now think he's an idiot (tamest word I can use) who is only looking out for himself, hates people, did everything he said he would never do, and applies different standards to himself than he does to other people. I wonder how he will justify that to God one day.
@ Eeyore:
Good points. A big swath of our society is drawn to those who promise answers and promise to take care of them in the spiritual or material realms. It is chilling. We are becoming perpetual children with a select few making decisions for us.
Former CLCer wrote:
I am curious about this part of your comment.
So CLCers (those who are still there) have finally woken up and realized that their former pastor, a convert to the Southern Baptist denomination, utilized resources they donated to buy friendships.
When I first discovered Mahaney was giving large sums to SBTS (from his pocket and the coffers of SGM/CLC) I got upset because I didn't think those in his own 'family of churches' realized these donations were being made to Mohler's seminary. Yep, that would make me mad if I were at CLC.
Mahaney kept saying 'Change is here to stay.' At least he was truthful with those words.
Christiane wrote:
Well said.
My last post should’ve said things haven’t changed.
@ Deb:
See my correction. Things haven’t changed because people are still worshiping C.J. But I don’t think most folks at CLC are.
@ Former CLCer:
Gotcha! Mahaney's fan base now exists outside of CLC.
Lydia wrote:
You might be interested to know that Tony Merida's church began in 2011, and it was a church plant from Vintage Church, which affiliates with Acts 29. Vintage Church here in Raleigh held Boot Camps back in the day, and Driscoll was the main attraction.
I did visit this church once with my daughter when she went off to college. It used to be called 'Vintage 21', but they dropped the number because people thought it was the name of a night club. Glad she chose to worship elsewhere.
Here's the link: http://vintagenc.com/blog/2013/04/04/imago-dei/
One of Danny Akin's sons co-pastors with Tony Merida at Imago Dei.
js wrote:
Well, I’m going to disagree with you and say that this is part of the Christian Industrial Complex. In order to sell books, you have to get endorsements from your crowd. And when they have books to sell, they will want an endorsement from you. Whether Tony Merida or Rachel Held Evans, it’s all about the $$$$$.
I’m trying to think of the last time I bought a book based on an endorsement. I’m sure I have, but it’s been a long time in the past. If I look at it on Amazon or in a bookstore, and it doesn’t grab me, I am not parting with my hard-earned cash. I’m going to be even less likely to shell out money to contemporaries who believe (among other things) that women are second-class in the church and the world. So, unless someone buys the Calvinista book for me, or I get it for free, I doubt I’m going to read it.
For the record, the only book I ever hurled at a wall was “The DaVinci Code.” The history in it was SO HORRIBLE I got to the point where I couldn’t stand it anymore and flipped it at a wall. It left a mark!
Bob, I received the desktop computer thank you soooooooo much! This is incredible I don’t have words. I never expected for any of you to do this. Bob you are a blessing to me and my son. I am starting on my resume and I hope to have it ready to send so that it can be looked over. Thank you all for your prayers and incredible support it means more to me than $$$ or things. My son is stronger because of all of you here and those who have stayed by our side since this all happened. I wish we would have received the support from LBC from the start but since we haven’t the blessing that has come out of all this have been all of you here. This website and Dee, I just love her. She has been so amazing when she calls and I can’t begin to share just how much I have come to love this woman. She has been so sweet, so kind and has given so much of her time to me and Billy in spite of all that she is going through. She has done all this with no thought to herself. Bob gave us a tool that will be well used and hopefully I will be able to use it in job search and communication but to also bless others. Please pray for me when opportunities arise for me to serve others and to just trust that Christ will bring blessing in my growth as a Christian. Please continue to pray for my heart as I still struggle greatly over what was done to Billy. I think he has handled it so much better than me. He encourages me and I can’t wait for the time comes when Billy will use what God has done for him through all of you to minister to others. You have invested in Billy’s life ,his trial, and his journey. Bob, my son is seeing Christ at work through your kindness and through the kindness of all of you who have prayed , supported, and given financial support when you did not have to. I know there are so many others in need much more than us and I don’t for one second ever forget that. Even if we never received anything my heart is so grateful for the love and kindness you all show us and have shown my son. I love all of you for caring about Billy. You need to know that after Billy’s rape he believed God did this to him to expose someone elses sin. He believed this because this is what he was told. He told me a few weeks after the rape that he no longer trusted God. He went as far as to say he was an atheist. Although I don’t believe my son ever was one he was deeply hurt and so confused. This journey has brought him to a place of courage, strength, and belief that God loves him and that He never left him not even in the middle of his rape I believe God spared billy more pain by stopping it. I share this because you all need to know that you are a part of Billy’s journey and a huge part of why my son no longer believes that God did this to him. You need to know that billy wants to be in a community of believers and seeking God because of your part in his healing. These things are priceless and no amount of money or things will ever come close to what that has been worth. I am gushing here not just because of what we received but because of your prayers and support. These things mean a lot because it’s come from the hearts of those who blessed us but they are no different to us than those who pray who encourage and who stand with Billy. I wanted to share my heart with all of you and thank Bob for this blessing. Stand bye because this is not even close to being over with. As much as I would like for it to be Ken Ramey has yet to publically acknowledge Billy’s rape and has yet to apologize publically for slandering him. Please pray that he will do this it is important to my son and to me. Pray for my heart that I continue to move forward as God leads in this and do it from a place of trust, truth, and justice.
Wasn’t it “*constant change is here to stay” ? At least that is what I remember from the mid-80’s…it was meant as a qualification of heart, I think. As in, “We are Spirit-led, so that is why we may do things as we wish.” It also cemented the “do not question authority” pov.
Zantedeschia aethiopica wrote:
You're probably right. I guess when it got repeated, 'constant' was often dropped. Thanks for the clarification.
__
Keeping A Stedy High: “Conference Pedestrian Traffic Is Decreasing In Neo-Cal Organizations?”
hmmm…
Deb,
hey,
Without a ‘C. J. Mahaney’ ™ legal court conviction, no one that is “Presenting Calvinism as Christianity” (c) in any 501(c)3 religious non-profit organization, is going to ‘officially’ take notice…
huh?
Not Gonna Happen…
Bump!
There is simply too much money ‘invested’, too much at stake, and too much money left to be ‘made’.
What?
They will simply cash in on the ‘C.J. Mahaney’ ™ ‘brand’ (R) as long as it maintains it’s monetary viability…
They Certainly Won’t Leave It (i.e. money) On The Conference Table!
(sadface)
Skreeeeeeeeeeetch !
But kind church folks, and others ‘are’ really listening, and voting with their words, opinions, wallets, and their feet…
Bloggers, Reporters, Lawyers, N’ Kind Social Media Folks, etc. Keep up the good work!
“The Whole World Is Watching…”
Heaven Too!
ATB 🙂
Sopy
__
Intermission:
‘Chicago Transit Authority’ : “Prologue / Someday”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mR6BeerSSWw
“The Whole World Is Watching?” (CTA c.1968 music set to a future tec video presentation)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WPNuvVh1vPg
—
@ Lydia:
I have sat under, and run away, from bully pulpits, bible thumpers cherry picking verses and backing up dogma. When young it was for self preservation.I was very rebellious as a teen. Sometimes I marvel that I am a believer at all.
As I matured, I began to understand I had the privilege and responsibility to figure out the *faith* on my own, establishing a real and personal relationship with Christ….via the filter of the Holy Spirit. When I began to fully understand that God loves the individual, not the system, not the program, but a living human being, I became free from Sheep Beaters.
@ mirele:
A decade ago (when I used to shop at LifeWay), I once purchased a book based on someone’s endorsement. There was a table display of a particular book at the front of the store near the door, so you couldn’t miss it. At the time, I had some degree of respect for a Southern Baptist seminary president named Al Mohler. I even drove out to SEBTS to hear him speak (back around 2005/2006). I made a point to shake his hand on the way out the door of the chapel.
It must have been around that time that I picked up a copy of the book on display at LifeWay and saw that Al Mohler gave it a glowing endorsement. It was a cute little book, so I bought it. However, it made its way onto the bookcase in our family room, and I never read it. Out of sight, out of mind…
Fast forward to 2009. Dee and I had spend an incredible number of hours since the fall of 2008 researching the Neo-Cal movement. SGM Survivors and SGM Refuge were invaluable resources that showed the darker side of CLC and SGM. I couldn’t have had any less respect for C.J. Mahaney because of the disfunctional religious system he had established.
As I was thumbing through my bookcase one afternoon, I suddenly saw a little book peeking out from the lowest shelf. It’s title was Living the Cross Centered Life by C.J. Mahaney. I nearly passed out! Where in the world did THAT book come from? Suddenly, I remembered… It was the book I purchased three years earlier — strictly due to Al Mohler’s endorsement.
Initially, I was angry I had wasted my money, but then I decided to read it and write a book review for our readers. (see links below). I no longer shop at LifeWay, and because of this experience I am now much more discerning when purchasing books.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2010/02/10/living-the-cross-centered-life-a-%E2%80%9Cdeficient-gospel%E2%80%9D/
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2010/02/11/what%E2%80%99s-wrong-with-%E2%80%9Cliving-the-cross-centered-life%E2%80%9D/
I also recommend this older post for our newer readers. I am still angry at the words spoken by Mahaney and Piper!
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2010/02/12/the-scream-of-the-damned-and-the-last-straw/
Perhaps we should republish some of our older posts from time to time.
Marquis wrote:
Wonderful news! I am so happy for you.
Thanks Bob for your tremendous generosity in giving her a computer. You are an inspiration to all of us.
Former CLCer wrote:
So they’ve seen the light about CJ, are they making the error again with the latest head honchos at CLC?
Looking at those Facebook, how can people who are posting and are fans read past the negative posts and not investigate the charges against Mahaney for themselves. I don’t understand? Do they believe in the same God, a God who is just? Either you think this right or wrong or are woefully deluded.
You can write a doctorate dissertation about how great a currently active celebrity pastor is? That makes my head hurt.
It is like Becky Rouzer Northcutt said : ” This guy covered up the abuse of children and you invite him to speak. What is wrong with you people?”
js wrote:
Yes, @js, I think it’s important to recognize that individual *readers* may take the endorsement names list as more of a “theological perspective GPS” instead of seeing the endorsements as being a tour guide.
But I also agree with @mirele’s comment:
I’d suggest that the list of endorsers gives the *community* a “who’s who” celebrity (plus wannabe) list of who’s made it into the Patriarchal, or Authoritarian, or Neo-Cal, or Emergent/Progressive Industrial Complex. So then it moves from being an indicator for the GPS of the author’s theology to a gridlock guide and mind-map of that entire system. And that larger set of system data can prove crucial to discernment in the community.
@ Mark:
https://leavingscientology.wordpress.com/2010/09/16/the-sunk-cost-bias/
And I didn’t mean to find an anti-Scientology website to explain the sunk cost fallacy, but it was the best one that came up.
mirele wrote:
My former church did a talk with Amy-Jill Levine, an OT professor at Vanderbilt Divinity School and a practicing Jew, and she did a very funny break-down of everything wrong with The DaVinci Code.
Stan wrote:
I bet a lot of doctoral dissertations were written in the USSR about How Great Comrade Stalin is. And a lot are written today in North Korea about the Greatness of Comrade Dear Leader.
patriciamc wrote:
I remember when DVC was EVERYWHERE — even all the documentary cable channels being “All DVC, All The Time.” (Roman tour guides HATED DVC fanboys…)
One Christian blog had an after-action report about a church who announced a sermon refuting the DVC. The spy who attended and heard the sermon described it as “The DVC is False because The Bible is True, and The Bible is True because The Bible Says So”, over and over and over.
Stan wrote:
Maybe for a D Min from a lesser seminary. After all CJ did succeed in building an empire, and isn’t that what it is all about for these guys?
Former CLCer wrote:
Maybe he’s assuming he won’t have to.
“And at the other end of the scale, we have taught men to say ‘My God’ in a sense not really very different from ‘My boots’, meaning ‘The God on whom I have a claim for my distinguished services and whom I exploit from the pulpit – the God I have done a corner in’.”
— C.S. Lewis, “The Screwtape Letters”
Patriciamc wrote:
There Is No Jesus, Only CALVIN.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljCnqii8Qgw
Mark wrote:
A God Can Do No Wrong.
HUMBLY, Of Course (chuckle chuckle).
Zantedeschia aethiopica wrote:
Like Comrade Trotsky’s “Doctrine of Continuous Revolution”?
mirele wrote:
With me, it was Harry Turtledove’s “Worldwar”. After wading through 1000+ pages and discovering it ended with “To Be Continued”.
Eeyore wrote:
My Dear Wormwood…
I refer you to my previous epistle on Semantics, specifically the redefintion of words into their “diabolical meanings”.
Your Ravenously Affectionate Uncle,
Screwtape
@ Bill M:
Good question – one that I can’t answer.
mirele wrote:
Which also explains why I have no desire to go to their ‘heaven’ either.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Exactly!
Lydia wrote:
Good observation. It is very transactional.
@ brad/futuristguy:
Bingo. Group think affirmed over and over.
I wrote a post that is a review of the CLC situation, efforts to change Maryland sol laws and CLC's two tools Terry Mayo and Charlotte Ennis.
wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/04/09/an-overview-of-the-situation-at-covenant-life-church-involving-larry-caffery-efforts-to-change-maryland-statute-of-limitations-law-and-terry-mayo-and-charlotte-ennis-as-clc-tools/
@ Dave (Eagle):
I read your post this morning. Very enlightening.
Im not sure they’re lacking discernment…the more stories I read the more I believe they are simply lacking any kind of love. Their hearts are hard.
@ Marquis:
I am happy for you guys!
Lea wrote:
A thought: Perhaps when the “guiding principles” for integrating all decision-making are “correct” theology plus a concern for self-protection — instead of conscience of right/wrong and compassion for others — then what was meant as discernment becomes dictation … and, ultimately, no one benefits.
I also do not think they lack discernment.
I am willing to speculate that they think they have done nothing wrong… their behavior is all self-consistent with their theology… and that is what is really scary…
I keep coming back to the parable of leaving the 99 to go after the one lost… Clearly, this group is willing to sacrifice the one (in the case of CJ, many abused children) for the sake of their view of what is the correct for the many..
Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
If I know something is terribly wrong and I ignore it or emiliorate its significance with euphemisms, my doctrine informs me I will answer for it on the Judgement Day. Do they not fear they will have to answer for their actions if they don’t repent?
This is not my understanding. The wrath and judgement of God are real.
@ Jeffrey Chalmers: And the Lord isn’t anyone good ole boy pal like Al Mohler, Mark Dever, John Piper, Mark Driscoll, and all their elitist pastor pals. He doesn’t see them for they deem themselves to be for what they are. It is written that ” judge and you will be judged.” (Luke 6:37). The chorus of judgements don’t appear to be too favorable and they are being watched by so many, including the Angels.
Sorry for bad grammar: He doesn’t see them for what they deem themselves to be, but for what they are.
At CLC not all of the people that seemed to blindly follow Mahaney were young though maybe some were young when they started their blind following of him. I am sure it is similar for other groups.
I think this blind obedience is more than just being young. One is that the people are in a bubble. Another is that they have bought into teaching that basically teaches admiration for leaders and that what is taught shouldn’t be questioned.
Also their teaching giving a broad definition of what is “gossip” and “slander” keep people from expressing their concerns which leads to people thinking they are the only one with these concerns. The blogs have helped with some of this.
@ Deb:
“Cute little book” is a good description of the appearance of Mahaney’s “Living The Cross-Centered Life.” I visited CLC for a few months until Brent Detwiler published his documents online. One day they gave out copies to visitors. Let’s just say that Mahaney did not appear to have put a great deal of work into it. Whatever else he is, Mohler is no dummy, and I highly doubt that he would have given a rave to that tiny book if one of his friends had not written it. At least I didn’t pay for it. Anyway, one day I threw it out.
Look these guys know exactly what they are doing! Even unbelievers can see the wrong in their theology, actions, and words! I’m amazed at how many follow but even more amazed at how we try to reason this behavior away by saying they lack love, they are deceived, how they don’t understand. If we can see it come one they are not as blind as we would like for them to be. I guess in our defense their behavior is so outrageous that we can not fathom that they know what they are doing and are actually getting away with it. We still know right from wrong and we all still have a choice in the end and if you know something is not right and still choose to follow or proceed then I say yes we to will be accountable for what we did or didn’t do. I don’t believe Jesus stood bye and allowed his people to be abused by ignoring truth. I also believe that because He told the truth is why He was hated. Standing on the truth isn’t an easy path but in the end we all have choices. I hope I made sense I am not attacking anyone here I have heard so many times that ” they don’t know what they are doing”, “they lack love”, they don’t really understand what they are doing”, I say pft……. I think these men know exactly what they are doing and of course they lack love because love or Jesus has nothing to do it they just use His name to get what they want. Please anyone correct me if i’m wrong maybe i’m being to harsh I just think that these men sometimes get a pass because they claim Christ!
Please forgive my grammar. I typed so fast that it looks atrocious lol. My spelling in some places ohhh goodness.
@ Marquis:
What they are doing is unfathomable, unconscionable, and abominable. And they absolutely know what they are doing. My parents were pretty strict and they always told me not to make excuses. I heard this over again and again whenever I made excuses for my misbehavior.. These men have no excuses. They all know better.
@ JeffB:
The only consolation is that when Dee and I visited SGC Apex, they gave us a free book. We each received Mahaney's other popular book Humility: True Greatness.
Dee wrote a book review for our blog. Her husband came up with a great title of the review – False Humility: True Hypocrisy. It was very fitting. Hey, even Mark Dever said in an interview that Mahaney is NOT humble, so at least we agree on that one point!
@ Mark:
God cannot be a good God if there is no justice. People wrongly believe the cross cancelled out Justice but if the resurrection does not convince them of their ability to start anew and strive to do right, nothing will.
Steve240 wrote:
Good point, Steve. The fear of being labeled a gossip can effectively silence those who might expose or question an erroneous teaching or practice.
An excellent appeal to T4G leaders from Todd Pruitt:
“Of course, at this point to remove Mahaney from the T4G platform at this late date would do nothing to satisfy most of the critics. It would almost certainly be seen as “too little, too late.” It may well be seen as nothing more than a cynical ploy to reduce criticism of the conference. But that does not mean that such an action should not be taken. It would require a humble statement asking forgiveness for not acting sooner. It would mean taking in no uncertain terms a posture of solidarity with the victims of the abuse in SGM churches.
It should never have reached this point.
The decent thing would have been for Mahaney to recuse himself from any more involvement in the leadership of T4G when it was clear that the various scandals of child sexual abuse first surfaced. That he did not, even though he had to know his continued involvement was attracting scandal like flies to a corpse, suggests a tangle of poor motives to which I will add no further speculation.”
http://www.alliancenet.org/mos/1517/an-appeal-to-the-organizers-of-together-for-the-gospel#.VwmkOvkrLIX
Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
It depends on the type of discernment. If it is sniffing out a comfy job that generates lots of money and adoration then yes they have discernment. If it is figuring out the right book deal to make money or figuring out the right things to say to ingratiate yourself with the powerful and receive even more money, then yes, they have lots of discernment.
If on the other hand, do they have the type of discernment that would put at risk, the money, fame, adoration, book deals, and more money, then no. I think their system is self selecting, you don’t get in if you have the right kind of discernment.
My challenge for Christian writing a book of any sort about our faith, be it fiction or non fiction, would be to just give it away for free! In fact I would even go so far as to say self publish and give it away. And before anyone ask me how I think these writers might live without a regular pay check coming in let me say that I live as a full time volunteer in Hong Kong, not the cheapest city in the world, and He – our eternal Papa – has never let me down!
@ Pam Palmer:
That is good but none of this is about pleasing “critics”. His removal from any stated representation of Jesus Christ is simply the right thing to happen. It is about what is truth, goodness and justice. Sorry Todd sees such as “being critical”.
I am saying Mahaney is a fraud. He makes a living as a fraud. I am saying to the people who buy tickets to T4G, you are supporting a fraud who protected pedophiles. You are supporting a man who used Jesus Christ to protect evil. Why do you do that?
I am saying to ALL the former Children victims: you are a big deal and worthy of Justice. And it is OK to make judgments. Many will call you ” critics”. It is their way of playing the fence.
It is not about pleasing me. I have heard the “pleasing critics” shtick quite a bit from the wishy washy and am done with them, too.
Todd, why not call them defenders of children?
@ Pam Palmer:
That article is disgusting.
Lydia: What do you mean?
@ Pam Palmer:
I have a comment not published yet.
@ Pam Palmer:
We can start here:
He calls you and me “critics”.
Then we have this gem:
“When I first read the reports of spiritual abuse and cult-like control of members in SGM churches I dismissed them outright as the rantings of malcontents. And, as far as my own personal knowledge goes, that may be the case. After years in ministry I have long since abandoned the notion of “where there’s smoke there’s fire.” I have witnessed too many occasions where the smoke came entirely from the mouths of slanderers. ”
Now for his real concern:
“And now, as I have suspected for some months, there will be public protests outside the KFC YUM! Center during next week’s T4G conference. There will also be, no doubt a major media presence. After all, is there anything more delicious to the secular media than an evangelical sex scandal? All of this leaves me asking in stunned wonder: “What are they thinking?” How can the organizers of T4G allow CJ Mahaney a place on the platform this year? The scandal is still growing. Lawsuits are in the offing. The accusations, far from being exposed as lies, seem to have taken on greater credibility. “
@ Lydia:
And he comes off as just another duped minister worried about the reputation of some of his past hero’s who cannot connect spiritual dots:
“Mark Dever, Ligon Duncan, and Al Mohler are men whom I hold in high regard and I will not heap scorn upon them as others have done. I have for years and continue to this day to be blessed by their writing and preaching. But I am dismayed. ”
So have we been just heaping scorn here? Or telling the truth?
Patriciamc wrote:
I hear ya! It’s almost akin to being glad when discovering a pastor is beating his wife, at least it isn’t on church property! Now, see how ridiculous that sounds?
@ Pam Palmer: @ Lydia:
I just read Todd Pruitt's appeal to T4G organizers, and I will give him credit for challenging Dever, Duncan, and Mohler to remove Mahaney from the speaker line-up. That took some courage. I felt he was honest in his analysis of the situation from a Neo-Cal perspective.
I will give it another read in the morning. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.
@ Steve240:
Great points Steve! I can see how those at CLC and in other SGM churches were living in a bubble before the internet. Now that so much information is available for public consumption, if they choose to stick their fingers in their ears and/or bury their heads in the sand, they have no one to blame but themselves.
Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.
@ Deb:
I have been up against a mammoth and lost. I know what it is like to take any crumb of what looks like agreement from someone from the same tribe and ignoring the red flags. it was a huge mistake. I see the same sort of red flags with Pruitt.
Todd Pruitt, not once, brings up the damage done to real people…to children. He is concerned for the reputation of his mentors.
Based on what he wrote, I would never take a problem to him Calvinist or not. He seems to think most are just slanderers.
I am not a critic. I am a defender of children and the oppressed.
Lydia wrote:
I’ll have to register an agreement with your take on Pruitt, his article hardly rates as discernment. After he relegates Mahaney’s detractors as “critics” and “slanderers” he transitions to a maybe there is a problem, but without apology nor giving those he just disparaged any credit. His concern appears more related to protecting the brand, complete with mention of “complementarianism and Calvinism”.
Lydia wrote:
“PERSECUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
Mark wrote:
But they’re The Predestined Elect, God’s Speshul Pets with the Get Out Of Hell Free Card signed by God before the foundation of the world! CALVIN Says so!
Mark wrote:
There is a little ad for the TV show “Hot Bench” that gets played almost every day around here. The 3 judges are sitting there in their robes, & the blonde woman judge is saying: “Let’s just blame everybody else and never take responsibility for anything!” (& looking furious). Every time I see it, I think about all the people who keep blaming the victim,over & over. Like Mahaney &Co.
Bill M wrote:
Bingo….
Amen.. This Neo-Calvin crowd seem to quickly hid behind grace when ever their action, or those that they protect, are confronted with their misdeeds. For example, has CJ ever, publically, admitted that he was wrong?
Lydia wrote:
@ Lydia:
I actually liked this article. Yes, he spends a bit too much time talking about reputations and friends. But he also calls out people more interested in paychecks than integrity. And he says this:
“Suffice it to say, I have found much of the evidence quite compelling that certain leaders within SGM knew about and sought to cover-up the sexual abuse of children.”
Which gives me hope that he is not quite as snowed/uncaring as the others.
@ Lydia:
I understand what you're saying and I agree. However, if Todd Pruitt had written his appeal in the manner that most of us would have, there would be no chance whatsoever that the T4G organizers would take his request seriously.
I can definitely see both sides of this situation.
Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
what ‘grace’ is to be found where men protect and defend an evil that is indefensible? what terrible grace leads them to offer money in exchange for access to pulpits so they can perpetuate their ‘credibility’ I know of no grace that harms innocent people, and if these men are claiming ‘grace’ in support of their misdeeds, why are they blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, knowing the consequences? Or have they so profoundly made ship wreck of their faith? Or are they now their own gods? When people think they can play with evil and intimidate victims, they forget that in their attempts to control everything, that evil cannot be ‘controlled’ once it is given a place to thrive. These men will become at the non-existent mercy of the evil they thought they could ‘handle’.
@ Christiane:
What a powerful commentary!
@ Deb:
They won’t take it seriously anyway. Todd makes it clear he admires them and is more worried about their reputations.I
I think I owe Pam an explanation. My response was more of a mama bear reaction than anything. I know what it is like to go up against these machines. And I know that victims are always held to a higher standard. I have seen this with secular courts and custody battles much like we have seen with Julie and Tony Jones. This higher standard is even worse in Christendom. At that point the nobody victims are held to a higher standard than the guy on stage with tons of resources!
So I am aware of what a dangerous road it is to go down. And any hint of agreement is like manna. However, when the person agreeing (and only on CJ being an embarrassment/distraction for his heroes) actually calls victims and their defenders names like critic, slanderer, etc, it might be wise not to promote them as someone to actually take seriously. Those types tend to come back and bite. They are not worth it and even have the ability to influence in nefarious ways.
Todd missed principle 1. The victims. His only bone to them is that …NOW…after all this time there MIGHT be something to their stories and it is not going away. that was it. Victims are so beat up they take the bone as compassion. It isn’t. The Todd types are best to ignore. He only cares about reputation and reminds people that those who bring up such things are usually slanderers.
He comes off to me as arrogant and hard hearted. Especially to SGM children victims. His goal is to save his heroes. The ones who took Mahaney more mainstream. Mahaney would still be a shepherding cult leader in his family of churches if not for Kohler and Dever. They saved Mahaney when he fled. Does Todd get none of this?
My concern is Pams back. I know the Todd type well.
@ Lydia:
Mohler. Not Kohler. Hate autocorrect sometimes!
__
“Conference On?”
hmmm…
Calvinist leader Reverend C. J. Mahaney now lõõks like a religious jigsaw puzzle with a couple of scriptures missing.
—
Christiane wrote:
you ask a great question. As much as I am reluctant to “go there” it reminded of 1 Tim 1. Paul makes a point to focus on whether people are deceived out of ignorance or are deceiving others on purpose. Paul puts himself in the former category and has great compassion for such. Later, he tells Timothy of one of them to “let her learn” and does not name names.
However, He has no patience or mercy for those in the latter category who deceive on purpose and even names names so people can act and avoid.
Reference Todd Pruitt’s recent article “An Appeal to the Organizers of Together for the Gospel,” I thank him for making the following statement:
“I appeal therefore to the organizers of T4G to remove C.J. Mahaney not only from the roster of speakers but also from the organization itself.”
There have been precious few (I cannot recall any) from the neo-Calvinistic crowd that has had the good sense to realize this appeal must be made. It took some courage to do so. It was a good start.
All was not positive in Pruitt’s appeal, the following statement really bothered me:
“Mark Dever, Ligon Duncan, and Al Mohler are men whom I hold in high regard and I will not heap scorn upon them as others have done. I have for years and continue to this day to be blessed by their writing and preaching. But I am dismayed. My appeal to them in part is driven by my deep desire that these men for whom I feel a great deal of gratitude not be tarnished by another man’s scandal.”
There is no need to tread lightly on these celebrities Mr. Pruitt. You stated that “I have found much of the evidence quite compelling that certain leaders within SGM knew about and sought to cover-up the sexual abuse of children.”
In my opinion, the three celebrity leaders you mention would be well served to have scorn heaped upon them. They have had all the evidence presented to them by numerous individuals. Yet they have chosen to ignore the evidence, ignore the victims and instead defend their friend. That protests by SNAP and others will be taking place outside the T4G conference is not surprising. We rock-throwing peasants are ashamed and upset when we see this obvious fraternity of the rich and powerful, the so-called Christian leaders that you hold in high regard, trample on victims. Christian leaders, of all people, should be upholding justice, not supporting a man who has given them thousands of dollars. These pompous men in suits deserve all the scorn they have received and more. In my opinion, none of them are worthy to be ministers of Christ, I don’t care how many letters they have after their names. They are hypocrites.
One more thing Mr. Pruitt. You are good friends with Carl Trueman. You produce the “Mortification of Spin” program with him. Surely you must be aware that when this scandal first became public, Sovereign Grace leaders attempted to reassure the pew-sitters that all was well by appointing a three-man committee to rule on whether Mahaney was fit to serve as a minister of Jesus Christ. These three men, Carl Trueman, Kevin DeYoung and Ray Ortlund ruled (not surprisingly) that Mahaney had done nothing to disqualify him from the ministry. Had these men had the courage to speak the truth, had they taken the time to read the 700 pages of evidence Brent Detwiler made available, Mahaney would have been booted out of the ministry in July, 2011. I wonder if you will make an appeal to your friend Carl Trueman to re-evaluate his statement of five years ago and publicly admit that his statement was a serious error in judgment which has caused the body of Christ great harm?
Mae wrote:
Actually Berean in Neo-cal circles means “Study the pastor’s sermon with a set of questions given to your group by the church staff.” It is shocking how Evangelicals, who used to have one of their top values as Bible study, so easily fell away from learning directly from God’s word and came to think they needed an interpreter of God’s word–ie their preacher man.” That happened at the same time as they decided they wanted a “king” (from the prophet, priest, king doctrine of Frame) instead of one King.
“There certainly appears to be a dearth of discernment among those who belong to the ‘Mahaney Admiration Society’.”
We shouldn’t be surprised by this. If these folks had any spiritual discernment, they would distance themselves from New Calvinism and its idols rather than embrace them! If you’re gullible enough to accept the tenets of New Calvinism, you would have no problem falling for the likes of Mahaney or scrambling at T4G gatherings to get the signatures of those you adore. Christ alone deserves our adoration, not mere men who are off track with aberrant theology in both belief and practice. There, perhaps, has never been a population of Americans in their 20s-40s which are so spiritually blind. To be sure, there is a spirit flowing through the ranks of New Calvinism … but it ain’t holy. If there was ever a time for the American church to pray for a new measure of discernment, it is high-time to do so!
I guess the 9Marx book on elders wasn’t good enough. So now we have a new release with all the usual suspects endorsing it. The cover is horrid. That alone would scare me away. But read this endorsement and note the irony.
“Bob Thune is a rising star in the evangelical church today, and his
Gospel Eldership: Equipping a New Generation of Servant Leaders
reveals why. He is a careful thinker, robustly biblical, and fiercely articulate. All of that, and so much more, comes through in Gospel Eldership. I am grateful to God for Bob Thune and for his significant contribution in this most worthwhile book.”
Jason K. Allen, President, Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary
It really is all about stardom. I am pretty sure that is the gospel.
I am a Christian but my goodness, people, if I wasn’t and I read this, I would NEVER want to embrace a faith that produces comments and attitudes like this!
You may be taking a stand for justice but does it have to come with such mockery and critical judgmentalism?
Did you forget Galatians 5:14? “But if you bite and devour one another …”
Lydia: Thank you for your Mama Bear concern for the victims! I am not offended that you and others see issues with some of the language that Todd used. I understand. However, I am hopeful whenever I see someone starting to see truth, even if they don’t see the whole truth yet, ie. the victims deserve FAR more sympathy and concern than the big dogs’ reputations! I was just happy that someone in the Reformed camp wrote a strong appeal to remove CJ Mahaney from a place of influence and honor.
Dom and I are leaving in a short while, to drive 8.5 hrs. to stand and hold signs & hand out flyers in front of the building, in which CJ Mahaney will be honored and listened to by thousands of pastors. I will be holding a photo of my beautiful, precious daughter at the age she was abused. Will anyone there listen or read what we have written? I’m not holding my breath, but it is something that I have to do. I want to thank everyone who has emailed T4G and appealed to them. I want to thank everyone who has prayed for this whole situation and for the victims abused in SGM churches. I have much hope that God is using this one awful saga of SGM to bring about a deep holy lasting change in His Church. I have hope that leaders everywhere in the Church are going to change and see the truth that the children come first, not the leaders. And one day they will establish policies and practices that really protect children from child molesters in our congregation. This is my hope. There is always hope, because I know that God is real and He is the one who brings about conviction of sin and reveals truth.
__
By Faith – Very Important Twenty-First Century Neo-Calvinist ‘Doctrine’ : “Un-conditional Acceptance Of C. J. Mahaney.”
hmmm…
Could have fool’d me.
(sadface)
Post Tenebras Tristitia ? [1]
Sopy
__
[1] Latin – “After darkness, sadness?”
—
Deb wrote:
Likely true whether Pruitt made that calculation or not. That Pruitt would need to heavily seed his appeal with swipes at opponents and appeals to protecting the brand says a whole lot about his intended audience.
I’m curious if his insubordination as such will have consequences for him.
Deb wrote:
Yep. New Calvinism is a “Gullible-Driven” church, not Gospel-Driven. You may hear a lot of “gospel-centered” this and that dropped in their gatherings, but you will never hear a clear Gospel message preached. If and when the dust from an over-fascination of all things reformed finally settles, one of the greatest mission fields on the planet will be among the droves of young gullibles exiting New Calvinism in disillusionment.
@ Todd Wilhlem:
I saw the word ‘covenant’ on something to sign at church today! I think it’s mostly ‘please volunteer for stuff’? But still. Apparently I’m scared of it now.
@ Todd Wilhlem:
What is as interesting is how Jason Allen became president of Mid Western. He was the least qualified but worked for Mohler.
Patriciamc wrote:
Yes, a truly amazing phenomenon in 21st century Christendom! Even Paul would be amazed at the over-emphasis of his epistles at the expense of the Gospels of Jesus! And Calvin is worshiped more than Christ! I counsel young reformers in my area in this way: If you read Paul first, you might read Jesus wrong … but if you read Jesus first, the writings of Paul come into perspective. I advise them to immerse themselves in the Gospels and to pray for the Holy Spirit to lead them to Truth.
I listen to sermon podcasts of SBC-YRR church planters in my area. I have on occasion sat with a clip board with the following columns: God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Reformed Icon (Calvin, Piper, Mohler, etc.). Each time one of those names is mentioned, I make a check under the respective column. At the end of the sermon, I will have recorded a lot of checks under “God”, little mention of Jesus, and hardly a note about the Holy Spirit. The reformed icon checks will sometimes exceed those of God. Dropping the name of God does not cut it if you leave Jesus out! Good Lord, what happened to Jesus?!
@ Pam Palmer:
I totally understand where you are coming from. I don’t expect the leaders to change and most likely would not believe any “lip service” to save the brand but I have great hope that those who pay them to be celebrities will eventually see the light.
Todd Wilhlem wrote:
And everybody said AMEN!
js wrote:
Yes, I’ve noticed this at Christian book stores in my area. A young reformer will pick up a book, glance at the back of the dust cover for endorsements, and stick it under his arm for purchase if the “right” names are there … without ever thumbing through the pages! Of course, he will have already been advised by Twitter chatter to buy the book. The reformed movement is all about name-dropping. If you ever wonder about a young pastor’s theological leaning, check out his re-tweets for Piper Points, Mohler Moments, Driscoll Drivel, etc. Re-tweeting New Calvinist icons is a way of letting the movement know that you are “in.”
Eeyore wrote:
A rare and endangered species in the American church.
Eeyore wrote:
In the absence of the genuine, the counterfeit takes root.
Todd Wilhlem wrote:
Yes. This bothered me as it is the same place Trueman writes. Trueman has since written against the whole Christian celebrity problem seemingly trying to distance himself but totally ignored his part in propping it up when he investigated Mahaney and declared him fit for ministry.
I cannot figure out why these guys think we should take them seriously. Where is their courage? Character and Integrity?
I was also disgusted with Pruitt for positioning disagreement with Mohler and Dever concerning Mahaney as “scorn” and he is above such. His scorn for victims was dripping off the page.
What also puzzels me is that out of the refirmed tradition came Presbyterianism which is big on the priesthood of the believer and selfgoverance, including over the centuries strong support of local, civil democratic goverance.
The Behavior if TG4TG, YRR, Driscol, et al is far, far from democratic/priesthood of the believer… Futher abuse of Calvinism and Christianity
Patriciamc wrote:
I don’t know how I missed this earlier but it is a brilliant observation!
Lydia wrote:
When a spiritual brain has been indoctrinated with the aberrations of New Calvinism, it filters everything and everybody through a reformed grid. Millions of young folks are being held captive to this mess, without enjoying the freedom that is in Christ.
Jeff Chalmers wrote:
The way the Protestant tree split during and after the bloody state church mentality of Europe is a Byzantine mess! The Puritans were somewhat worse than that which they fled! Denomination history is all over the place. Makes it interesting what happened in the New World after that.
@ Pam Palmer: If you can impact the heart of one person who is walking into that conference and that person is a person who will influence others, you will have succeeded in some ways. It wouldn’t be a great victory, but it needs to start somewhere. I will be praying for you. The evangelical church, not just the neo cal movement , needs to acknowledge child sexual abuse is a problem within its ranks. Sorry for your child’s experience. I will be praying for you.
Mae wrote:
Jesus came to redeem and work through individuals … not institutions. The institution we call “church” is OK only if it is leading folks to individual relationship in Christ, equipping them to do the work of the ministry, and mobilizing their individual gifts to accomplish the Great Commission. Anything less than this is doing church without God.
Deb wrote:
And everybody said AMEN!
Max wrote:
A great exercise! It really brings it into focus. My kids play a similar game (or should I call it collecting data). They tracked how often Jesus is mentioned in relation to a guru quoted. The gurus always win. Jesus is lucky to get one mention. God gets mentioned a bit but mainly as Sovereign. You know what the daughter said? That God sounds nothing like Jesus we have read about. Hmmm.
Lydia wrote:
Lemmings also follow each other unquestioningly … pursuing popular opinion to their destruction.
Jeff Chalmers wrote:
I always thought it was the baptists and that Presbyterianism was magesterial. I alway think about the old Princeton theologians, Hodge and Warfield, stodgy elitists when I think about Presbyterians. People who were against revivalism and very much opponents of Finney and the Beechers and A J Gordon. The Princeton theology has its God points but it is the ancestor of Neo Calvinism. Elder rule and authoritarian pastors seems to be its distinctive. And a form of elitism among the pastor caste seems to be prominent. I terms it a caste because who dare touch Gods anointed is the worshipful opinion minions such as myself should have. I mush prefer E Y Mullins to the Hodges.
The Princeton theology has its good points. I don’t like spell check. Sorry. I think faster than I write.
JeffB wrote:
One of the greatest religious strategists who ever lived. This master-mind created Ground Zero for New Calvinism at Southern Seminary and is leading the charge to Calvinize the largest denomination on the planet, with hardly a whimper from SBC’s non-Calvinist millions. Brilliant!
@ Max:
For the record, I used to spend a considerable amount there for books and resources I personally used, for group Bible study materials, and gifts/gift cards.
Marquis wrote:
“Truth is Unkillable”
(Balthasar Hubmaier, 16th century Anabaptist who was persecuted by the magisterial reformers)
Max wrote:
And shameful. There are Calvinist who also don’t like this denominational takeover by these Neo Calvinists. More independent churches are a coming.
Pam Palmer wrote:
Ministerial integrity demanded it! Just as ministerial integrity demands that the T4G who’s-who distance themselves from Mahaney and SGM while the cries of victims scream for justice.
Bill M wrote:
No spiritually discerning believer in Christ would associate themselves with this movement.
Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
Cheap grace.
Lydia wrote:
And she would be right about the Calvinist God!
@ Max:
He is really a James Carville and Carl Rove all rolled into one when it comes to political strategy. He missed his true calling.
Here is how clever he is. Years ago he wrote an article about the resurrection and in it he quotes NT Wright as saying his friend Marcus Borg loves Jesus. Then he paints NT Wright as promoting someone who does not believe in the resurrection and as saved! This means NT Wright is a heritic and teaches you can be a Christian and not believe in the resurrection!
So what is the real background the gullible followers will never be told? Wright wrote a book with Borg about two views of Christ. Wright disagrees with Borg but loves him and mentioned in an interview the disagreement and Borg as a man who loves Jesus. That is it.
To Mohler this is an opportunity to paint Wright denying the resurrection!
All one has to do is Google Wright and resurrection to find tons of information to know that is a fabrication.
They are scared to death of Wright. He is a true scholar who can communicate and does not indoctrinate. Which is why he can be friends with Borg, treat his views with respect and guys like Mohler, cannot. They use such people to rally the troops for their war.
Would you believe a Calvinist brought this up to prove Wright is a heretic just last week?
Mohler wrote the article around 2007. He quotes an obscure Australian publication Wright gave an intetview to about the book with Borg to smear Wright!
So why so I go to do much trouble on one example? Because this is how they operate. And the gullible just follow along and never test or check anything.
Deb wrote:
LifeWay has been the go-to place for Southern Baptists … a practice that needs to be reevaluated by SBC’s (current) non-Calvinist majority. Even SBC Sunday School literature has subtle introductions to reformed theology … not so subtle, in the young adult literature. LifeWay’s “The Gospel Project” is sweeping through SBC ranks … most don’t realize that the materials have been written exclusively by New Calvinists. To “hook” churches in my area, LifeWay representatives are offering a free quarter of The Gospel Project to unknowing SS officers. I say “unknowing” because this should more aptly be titled “The Calvinism Project.” The reformed teaching is subtle, but the discerning can spot it. I complained to LifeWay editors a few years ago about the preponderance of Calvinist commentary in the margins and footnotes of its young adult literature. I’m sure others must have voiced their concerns, because LifeWay did tone it down a bit. There are others options for SS literature, for example “Vines by the Book” or maybe just a good old-fashioned study of a Book of the Bible!
@ Mark:
The Baptist tradition I grew up in was big on “no King but Jesus”, soul competency and the priesthood.
There are many strains of Baptist. All of them claim Roger Williams. :o)
The Founders of the SBC were mainly the Princeton guys who were pro slavery. After God did not determine they win the war, the SBC evolved to be more independent. Some of the writings over a 50 year period after the war by Baptist theologians are very interesting in how they wrestled with free will and determinism.
Max wrote:
I know you did not mean to say that the southern baptists are the largest denomination on the planet. Not only are they not that, they themselves do not even believe their own claimed statistics.
Max wrote:
I don’t know about SS curricula; that gets tricky. But I think that if individuals want something more than bias a good start is to choose a topic and then read theologians and apologists from various christian traditions on that subject and then analyze which arguments are best and why. Depending on the topic it may be good to read what non-christians have to say also on that topic. Nobody knows enough about any subject until he has listened to and analyzed what the opposition has to say on that subject.
The opposite of that approach is not called education, it is called indoctrination.
okrapod wrote:
I try to find resources that have no Reformed slant because I don’t want to be influenced by the thought that God is the author of all evil or that God controls everything and we have no choice. That simply can’t be correct. I’m also trying to avoid happy-clappy Jesus is my best bud and will take care of all my hurts and pains. No, I want resources that deal in hard, cold reality.
@ okrapod:
I totally agree! A great example of this would be studying the different atonement theories and their roots including those who don’t view the cross as atonement. What are people afraid of going this route, I don’t get it.
I was in the local Jewish temple last year for a concert and was reading all their publications. I was stunned at all the opposing scholars they have in to debate and discuss this or that of OT scripture in a classroom format for people to come for free.
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@ Todd Wilhlem:
on your last sentence: I am agreed. There are islands off Ireland that need populating, which is tempting. The commenter who said “Together to hawk our books while ignoring the flock” is spot on, though many evangelicals won’t be able to take it. The whole thing is just despicable. Much better off with my Bible and some nature than their conferences and books.
And to clarify- I also agree with the rest of what you said there, Todd…just REALLY identify with the urge to get away from the vomitous mess sometimes.
Melody wrote:
@ Patriciamc:
I have a brother that claims there is a strain of Calvinistic determinism in all Protestant groups.
He may be right. Just look at “once saved always saved” which is Orthodox for most who claim to be non cals.(I am not rigid on it but think the Book of Hebrews and 1 John show us something different than OSAS)
OSAS communicates we have an inability to walk away from faith and belief. That in and of itself is deterministic in my view.
The same could be said of non Cal’s who believe in total depravity/original sin. It has strains of determinism not choice.
Not that it matters, I just find it interesting how beliefs evolve and what is considered orthodox.
@ Lydia:
People in certain circles get so upset about Wright, but he’s far more gracious than most of those in the Reformed movement. I also think he is spot on very often, whereas, the Reformed crowd like to be right all the time, but don’t really seem to care about individuals. I really do suggest they sort that out before critiquing Wright’s liberalism. Here’s one talk by Wright that I found quite edifying:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukyNU51OcnA
@ Melody:
and for what it’s worth, I don’t in fact see eschatology quite the same as NT Wright does, but he still makes many excellent points…
Lydia wrote:
I think your brother’s right. During my time as a Calvary Chapelite, I can safely opine that they also teach a brand of rigid determinism; one in which the differences from hard-core Neo-Cals, are only cosmetic.
@ Melody:
I don’t agree with him on several things but I love his approach. He takes other views seriously and makes his case using historical context in addition to interpretation. He also focuses on the genre and literary devices used in Scripture which is sorely missing in the “literal” meanings we usually hear! He makes you think and want to dig deeper.
@ Muff Potter:
He pointed this out to me back when we had the Piper debacle in our family. The debate was: Was Calvin a Piper Calvinist. :o)
It got my radar tuned up and I agree with you the differences are largely cosmetic.
@ Melody:
That is one of my favorite Wright talks.
Lydia wrote:
From what little I know about modern Judaism, I think they’re more comfortable with questioning and differences of opinion. Now the Hasidics think they’re right, but even then they debate back and forth. I wish everyday Christians was much more comfortable with the gray areas and questioning.
Lydia wrote:
What are they afraid of? Hell of course. I haven’t heard of a fundagelical sect (non-reformed) yet which doesn’t teach that if you don’t accept that God had to torture and mutilate his beautiful son on your behalf in order to assuage his anger toward you; your final destination is indeed hell.
Lydia wrote:
What a concept huh? Now why can’t Protestant sectarianism take a cue from this instead of approaching the Bible as Wahabbi Islam does its Qur’an?
Lydia wrote:
Not really. Certainly in various protestant groups one may find individuals who believe things which are not official denominational beliefs, but I am thinking that he meant an official strain of Calvinistic determinism being taught, and that is not what I have found.
The Free Will Baptist denom with which our church was connected definitely believed that Hebrews 6 means actual apostasy of somebody actually saved, as does the reference about making shipwreck of one’s faith elsewhere. The methodist tradition includes differences of individual opinion of course, but they do not officially believe in OSAS as far as I know. I don’t know about the various groups that spun off from methodism. The anglicans apparently have differences of opinion among individuals but OSAS is not a teaching of the church.
This from catholic answers seems pretty accurate at least in the protestant groups with which I have been affiliated.
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=96907
@ Lydia:
Good one, isn’t it? 😉
@ Lydia:
exactly. also why I like Michael Card. Been revisiting this lately too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igg51L1tMAw&list=PLzQhtf5bRXBS8nasa0LC0xwJem9exGoIJ
To be honest, I have yet to meet one single speaker that I entirely agree with on anything. I get a lot out of listening to a wide range of individual human beings. 😉
Melody wrote:
And to add to that, the problem with these conferences is that it’s a lot of soundbites and “right teaching” without any real heart. IMObservation.
Melody wrote:
That is a problem. My Christian Reformed mom-n-law was in her 60s before visiting other churches other than a precept upon precept bible study for a few years. After being ‘forced’ to visit other denominations when her and dad-n-law travelled the country for a few years full-time in a motorhome, she declared to me one day, “I have learned that there really ARE Chrisitians in other denominations.
Another story:
Arguing with my daughter’s SGM boyfriend one day, he said that the true religion (SGM way) had to agree on everything. He said that since I didn’t agree with everything my pastor said, that one of us did not have the true religion. He also said that I wasn’t capable of understanding the Bible alone without the leaders help and that my and my daughter’s questioning was sin. I said, “that is exactly what the Jehovah Witnesses teach.” That if you read the Bible on your own without the Watchtower, you will fall into darkness within two years.
I have to be fair to him though. He said these things just before all the poop hit the fan. He idolized Mahaney, poor guy.
@ okrapod:
I need to check but I thought Methodist, at least the Wesleyans, believed in total depravity/original sin.
Maybe I was too precise. I was thinking of what i would label as what some claim are God determined positions. Others probably would not. Even the tradition of elder or pastor rule seems a bit deterministic to me. The Moses model, surely, as if God anointed special people to rule in pertuity in the body. (Not serve)
@ Melody:
I have never heard of Micheal Card. I will check it out. Thanks!
@ patriciamc:
Me too!
I really only like to argue doctrine with people who study the Bible for themselves, not quoting past theologians unless they are using them for original word studies.
I spent a about a year one time studying all I could on the OSAS, freewill and all that. Out of my own study I have my opinion.
Freewill choice always. But once born-again, the only way to loose salvation is if you know exactly Who and What you are consciously rejecting. Otherwise I believe that God works in you in such a way that your spirit will be saved with the right heart attitude for all eternity. I do not believe that you can sin your way out of born-againness any more than you can perfect your way into born-againness. But also I do not feel like I am sinning when I question a person’s salvation who claims to be a believer but doesn’t act like one. 1, 2, 3 John seems to give us clues of what to look for.
@ Muff Potter:
Don’t get me started on PSA! I was amused the Episcopalian Bishop took a quick swipe at PSA during his 10 min Homily on the resurrection. The Episcopalians don’t clap but I was clapping in my heart. :o)
Wright takes a swipe at it too. He has come right out and called it cosmic abuse.
@ Patti:
I love the 3_books of John! There is so much to mine. You make great points about OSAS. Hebrews is interesting, too. Especially chapter 10. (It is a big deal to even question it in my neck of the seeker woods. Heresy!)
I am not sure it matters because what seems to be of vital importance is being able to recognize a Christian at some point. These days they spiritually abuse,molest, are greedy, etc then say sorry or ‘i repent’ when caught. And those are the leaders! Shampoo, rinse, repeat. Some very basic consistency would be nice. :o)
Max wrote:
I am seeing this up close and personal.
Pam Palmer wrote:
Praying for safe travels. Hope you'll be sending up pictures. Care to write a guest post?
@ Melody:
I meant to say earlier that Wright claims he is called a liberal in America and a conservative in the UK. :o)
Jay wrote:
I tend to think victims of these “Christian” systems are being bitten and devoured. I don’t think it is wrong to be judgemental of those who protect child molesters in the name of Christ. I think that is a good thing.
Not sure there will ever be an appropriate way to discuss it that won’t offend someone. Even bringing it up makes some furious and they call a victims horror story, gossip. Some call it “scorn” and victims, slanderers.
Deb wrote:
If you are referring to “The Gospel Project”, consider this … TGP’s advisory council includes New Calvinist notables such as D.A. Carson, Matt Chandler, James MacDonald, Daniel Akin, and J.D. Greear. All of the 20+ folks on the original TGP team – as advisors, editors and writers – are associated with strong convictional Calvinism. Southern Baptists in the pew ain’t got a clue that they are participating in a “project.”
@ Max:
Don’t forget the wine and dine publicity party they flew in select bloggers for to write positive about it– like SBC Voices, Dave Miller. Big deal to rub shoulders with the elite!
okrapod wrote:
That’s why Jesus said just before His ascension “I’m outa here folks, but I’m sending another – the Holy Spirit – who will lead you into all Truth.” The Word + The Spirit of Truth = Revealed Truth. Reading and debating God’s Word, without Holy Spirit guidance, will take us down some roads we don’t need to be on.
okrapod wrote:
Sorry, I stretched it a bit! Southern Baptists’ claim to fame is that they are the largest Protestant denomination in America. However (as a 60+ year Southern Baptist), I don’t put much faith in the numbers SBC touts. For example, SBC claims 16 million members … it’s probably more like 8 million by the time you purge the rolls of dead folks, those who have jumped ship, and a growing population of “dones.” Of the 8 million or so who may actually be members, only half show up on any given Sunday … millions only make it to Christmas and Easter services (or church dinners). Thus, active Southern Baptists may only number around 4 million … and most of those don’t scare the devil when they get up in the morning! Not enough spiritual power in most of them to blow the dust off a peanut!
@ Max:
Yes, I have researched it. It’s advertised over on The Gospel Coalition’s website.
Lydia wrote:
What does PSA stand for? Something about Christ taking our punishment?
@ Lydia:
Yes, I remember that well Lydia. A chance for the little guys to hang out with the big dogs. The Church of the Living God is not to act like the world – schmoozing is not a spiritual gift.
Today I heard a minister use the term “Show off Religion”. I kind of like that. He was talking about ministers that talk all about their wealth and how they do this and that but really have no substance. I think this term would include a lot of these “mega star” preachers or wanna be “mega star preachers. They are too busy pontificating to really preach the true gospel. While I often disagree with what this minister preaches about, I think he got it right this morning. Another word I would use for these type of ministers, would be grandstanding. Can’t stand them at all.
Max wrote:
Why would you think that reading and debating would preclude the Spirit? I don’t see these processes as incompatible with each other.
patriciamc wrote:
penal substitutionary atonement
It is a reformation thing, a subset of substitution theory. We really must get Lydia to talking about it over on ODP some time. Personally, I cannot make the leap from that particular theory to any idea that you got to love a god like that. Fortunately, a lot of other people can’t make that leap either, and there are other theories. Which is one reason I keep saying how good it is to (a) look at the historical/traditional ideas and see how some people got here from there and (b) to look at the ideas of other christian traditions.
Pam Palmer wrote:
God be with you in your travels and tomorrow at the event. I hope you are able to communicate your heart to the people there. One thing I’ve learned from picketing Scientology (and was reminded of just this morning) that even your presence out there can stir a person’s heart years later. A Scientologist woman had seen a sign during one of the Anonymous protests in 2008 and she remembered it and told people years later that sign was the first catalyst to her getting out. Then another person went and looked through the pictures of that protest and found the specific sign and posted it to Facebook. The now ex-Scientologist said, “That’s it!”
So you may not see results tomorrow, but who knows in what hearts you may plant a seed. You may find out years later or in eternity that you touched hearts and brought about change.
okrapod wrote:
And it is THE only way among Fundagelicals. It wasn’t until I got out of the bubble that I learned there were other ways such as Christus Victor (the original).
Harley wrote:
In the words of the prophet Naked Pastor:
http://i0.wp.com/www.nakedpastor.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/pastor-bob.jpg
Lydia wrote:
When you’re taking friendly fire from both sides, you’re probably on the right path.
Lydia wrote:
I’ve heard it described as “Calvin Islamized the Reformation”.
Let entropy set in after 500 years and why shouldn’t Calvinism have its own Wahabi, Talibani, and ISIS to Wahabize, Talibanize, and ISIS the Reformation?
Periodically, I link to this article from Udo Middleman on “The Islamization of Christianity.” In the second half of the article especially, he addresses the kinds of deterministic views of God’s sovereignty and our supposed spirituality that make light of human suffering, make God the author of immorality, and resign us to passivity.
No wonder those who are corruptible by power get into roles of religious authority within this theology, wherein they can tell others what to do in the name of their God, and find passive sheep willing to follow them because it is supposedly “God’s will.” May the Spirit lead these sheep back into freedom …
http://www.theschaefferfoundation.com/footnote4_1.php
@ brad/futuristguy:
Great article!
@ okrapod:
What is ODP? I could never make the leap to PSA. I was raised Christus Victor and still lean that way.
But one thing i noticed is that PSA fits quite well with Eternal Subordination of the Son. A popular position among the Neo Cal’s.
@ mirele:
This is incredible! And beautiful.
@ mirele:
That is a beautiful testimony!
__
“Standard ‘Oppressing’ Procedure?”
hmmm…
Doctor Albert Mohler (SBTS) takes extreme exception to the doctrine of human free will, and also God’s saving grace being offered equally to everyone. That to this Orthrodox Calvinist is NOT the Soverign way of his God as purported by his understanding of the holy scriptures.
huh?
Might wanna take specific caution when ‘listening to’ this distingushed Southern Baptist Calvinist theologian, huh?
Jesus loves you more than you know!
ATB
Sopy
__
Inspirational relief: Singer/Songwriter Paul Simon – “Mrs Robinson”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qR-x_51P5_Y
(don’t forget ta clap and wave your lit up phone…)
P.S. The Distinguished Doctor Albert Mohler is always glad ta hear from interested parties. You may write him at mail@albertmohler.com.
🙂
—
Jay wrote:
Though your comment evokes strong emotions I try to be calm and give an alternate point of view.
I spent 40 years at a church that became ever more authoritarian and in the last years I was there it ground up some very wonderful people. During that time any input was turned away regardless of how nice it was said. At the same time people were being abused it became impossible to expose or talk about the the system of abuse because there were so many silencing tools at the command of those in authority.
If you want to quote Galatians 5:14 at me I can add a whole lot more for you that I also heard over the years that came from the mouths of those who wanted to silence criticism. It was imperative to maintain the happy face and conceal the rot within.
Since leaving that environment I have found confidence that the bible is a whole lot messier than the nice and pleasant “isn’t our church great” that is demanded by so many. I don’t want to get into throwing bible verses back and forth, suffice it to say that context is everything. In the face of corruption and injustice the prophets and Jesus himself engaged in both “mockery and critical judgementalism”.
okrapod wrote:
Steve Chalke, a U.K. evangelical, likened the doctrine of PSA to “cosmic child abuse”. The fundies went berserk and went after him like a school of piranhas for that, with Piper and others accusing him of blasphemy, which led me to believe Chalke must have a good point.
__
“Pedophillia is the acceptable Calvinesta way, truth, and the life?”
hmmm…
Deb arn’t you listening, these noteable T4G religious theologians and ministers of Christ’s gospel are obviously and desperly trying to tell everyone by their actions, that pedophiles are certainly welcome in the 501(c)3 Calvinist churches and religious establishments under their purview, of which C. J. Mahaney’s SGC’s some fourty years of documented questionable history is simply small change…
(sadface)
Their mamma probably tried to raise them a bit better…
ATB
Sopy
__
Intermission: Merl Haggard – “Mamma Tried”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jxQbvSjQy9A
🙁
—
Don’t forget Apostle Paul telling some to not just get circumcised, but why not cut it all off!!
Bill M wrote:
@ <a href="#comment-247090" title=
@ Lydia: You missed my point completely, so perhaps I wasnt clear.
Of course we should defend the victoms and stand for truth and righteousness, but does it glorify God to be mean-spirited about it? Does it concern anyone here the impression comments like this communicate to unbelievers or those that are beginning to investigate how Christianity responds to injustice?
Bill M wrote:
Amen. As Christians, we are exhorted to “Never lose your sense of urgency, in season or out of season. Prove, correct, and encourage …” (2 Timothy 4:2). “To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: a time to keep silence, and a time to speak” (Ecclesiastes 3:7). The watchblogs continue to remind us that this is a season to speak … we cannot afford to be silent, for Jesus’ sake. Love for the Body of Christ demands it. Telling the truth in love sometimes stings, but it is always the right thing to do.
@ Bill M: Is that what is being done here?
I was referring to Galatians 5:12
Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
@ Max: I couldn’t agree more!!
My quesiton is why is it being done with such and attitude? Truth is powerful and speaks with authority – the inuindos and accusations and speculations and wonderings posted here are anything but.
@ Jeffrey Chalmers: Another quick thought as I re-read your comments to seek more undertanding of what you are and are not saying … If we have been treated terribly, should we respond in kind?
Deb, I saw that 2009 Resolved Conference video. It’s sensationalism designed to excite the emotions. And what nonsense, preaching that “the scream of the damned” was Jesus on the cross. But I have heard a similar teaching before within Evangelicalism, i.e. – that God rejected Jesus on the cross because He viewed Christ as if He had sinned. I would say that this is bordering on the blasphemous. It was also very eye-opening to see your tally of revenue taken in by these conferences. At the 2009 Conference, you estimated they raked in around $900,000. and that was without including the book sales! MONEY – it’s all about money and prestige. These preachers aren’t pastors. How can they even know people in their churches on a personal level when they’re out gallivanting on the conference speaking circuit?
Jay wrote:
I’m trying to figure out what innuendos and accusations and speculations are being spread here.
The truth is that the bigwigs in the Neo-Calvinist movement watch out and protect each other. And they do this even when it can be clearly shown that the person (in this case, C J Mahaney) either knew about or should have known about child abuse at his church (specifically the Nate Morales case). He’s not been repentant or apologetic about what happened under his head pastorship at CLC. And his friends have protected him, promoted him and refused to deal with the very real criticisms of him. All of them, C J and his friends, the Albert Mohlers and the rest, they ALL look terrible.
Is that the truth you think is innuendoes, accusations and speculations?
For the record, I stood out in front of “The Trinity Church,” aka Mark Driscoll’s new outfit in Scottsdale, again today. It rained a bit. *shrug* I dry easily. Someone could accuse me of going off innuendos, accusations and speculations, but I have prepared and am ready to hand to all comers a flyer listing Driscoll’s problems, with links. (Only a lawyer could love that.) I flatly do believe in taking direct action when it’s become absolutely clear that the person who did wrong is going to persist in ignoring his wrongdoing.
As I said to someone a few weeks back, God’s grace does not mean ignoring or hiding the very real and very damaging things which a person may have done. It’s kind of like what’s surrounding the former Speaker of the House, who will be sentenced shortly for structuring. His lawyer has put forward an “oh woe is me” for his client, but I can’t help but wonder about the five people who have been generally identified as having been sexually assaulted by this man.* What about them? What about what they went through for the last four decades? The churches go through the same “woe is me” routine.
*N.B. The former Speaker is not being sentenced for child sexual abuse, but for structuring, which happened when he was paying off one of his victims, because the ex-Speaker didn’t want his transactions being reported to the Treasury. The ex-Speaker claimed he was being extorted, but wiretaps showed that wasn’t the case, the abuse had happened and the ex-Speaker was paying off the victim.
Lydia wrote:
Lydia, I would say that Pruitt is especially concerned about the reputation of Calvinism in that article and not so much about the rights of the victims.
Jay wrote:
Dear Jay,
Exactly whose comments do you have in mind when you say this? It’s difficult for me (and perhaps others) to see which “innuendoes, accusations and speculations” you object to.
Lydia wrote:
Right on, Lydia. And it’s Dever, Duncan, and Mohler that have contributed to C.J. Mahaney being able to function and flourish within the Neo-Cal system without impunity. You can’t give them a pass – they are complicity in this whole mess.
*complicit*
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Yep! I’m glad I came to the same consensus as other TWW readers without having first seen your comments. Look at how Pruitt begins the article. He doesn’t start out from the gate being concerned for the victims of abuse at SGM. Rather, he seeks to put a pretty face on the Calvinist Movement within the SBC and piling accolades on the Together For the Gospel conference speakers. Then at one point he states in parenthesis (though Driscoll was never a Calvinist) because….well…you know….It’s all about the IMAGE OF CALVINISM! There is so much wrong with that article. What I have said is just the tip of the ice berg.
Deb wrote:
Deb, I understand that as: He has to pat his fellow Calvinistas on the back, make the Neo-Cal Movement look exciting, refreshing, truth-loving, blah blah….which he did in the beginning of the article. Then give the Kings of the Calvinista Movement their pats on the back….gotta do that. Oh…and then somewhere in the article hidden among the praises of Calvinism, the concern about scandalizing the Reformed faith, i.e. the Doctrines of Grace, somewhere in there is the concern for the victims of sexual abuse. But in my opinion, it isn’t his primary concern. That’s just me.
Not everyone is staying silent, thank the Lord. God bless Todd Pruitt of the Mortification of Spin crew, for this plea to the leaders of T4G 2016:
http://www.alliancenet.org/mos/1517/an-appeal-to-the-organizers-of-together-for-the-gospel#.VwstxWJlDFo
Chris, many of us here at TWW are not impressed with Pruitt’s article. Read some of the comments up thread if you are interested.
Jeff Chalmers wrote:
Jeff, I took note that you stated “refirmed tradition” and I’ll bet that was a typo. But it made me think that the term *infirmed tradition” might be apropos. 😉
@ Todd Wilhlem:
Who is Bob Thune Todd?
I noticed in another Evangelical Free District that there is a Bob Thune who is a Senior Pastor of an EFCA in Bismarck, called Grace Point. His son is the pastor at an Acts 29 in Nebraska called Coreo-Dei. I wrote about him as he was one of the speaker
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Someone mentioned the documentary “Marjoe” recently, I can’t remember who. I decided to rewatch it, having seen it many years ago, I wanted to see it with my today eyes. It was totally worth it. The behind the scenes shots of the “ministers” having dropped their masks and counting their money said it all.
Lydia wrote:
I find this fascinating too. I think another thing is a sense of safety- if they do all the right stuff, then God will bless them and nothing bad will happen to them. And sometimes greed- the minister who teaches that God gave him his fancy car and mansion holds out the hope that if his followers do and believe as he does, God will also give them good things in this life. They applaud his success because they’d like to have it for themselves.
Lydia wrote:
Lydia, Michael Card has had a profound influence on me from way back in the 80’s. He is true Christian poet. I attended one of his concerts many years ago and he was extremely personal with the audience. He got a lot of flack from Evangelicals back in the day by recording an album with John Michael Talbot, because….GASP….he is a Catholic!
siteseer wrote:
Siteseer, I was the one who mentioned Marjo. Great movie for exposing the charlatans in that particular Christian camp. Where did you find the entire movie? I have only been able to find segments of it online.
Lydia wrote:
The Eastern Orthodox – of which I am – also do not hold to PSA. The Reformed crowd do say that it is an ESSENTIAL doctrine to believe in order to be SAVED. Guess a LOT of folks weren’t saved in the first 1500 years of the church.
Marquis wrote:
I agree, Marquis. And also, I believe they have faced down the same complaints privately many, many times over the years before it ever comes out in the open.
They speak with no awareness of ever being judged for what they say or do and with no awareness of God seeing them or weighing them in the hear and now.
okrapod wrote:
Ocrapod, PSA I know, but what is ODP?
Jay wrote:
First of all, you must not read much online if you think these comments are mean.
As far as what unbelievers might think, maybe they will see that there are at least some Christians who can call a spade a spade and be honest.
Speaking the truth right out is a healing balm to the hearts of the victims, to those who have been offended against, wounded, silenced and marginalized, whose faith is in tatters, hanging by a thread.
Frankly, I do not see anything on this thread any more harsh than what is in the Bible itself-
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep…
Daring, self-willed… like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct… count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you, having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children… springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved. For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption…
These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever…
I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.
Darlene wrote:
Thanks, Darlene, it was a great watch. I rented it on Amazon.
Jay wrote:
While delicate people are beating around the bush, more victims are being victimized. Is that kind?
@ Jay:
I think unbelievers already know a big part of Christendom is fake. All they have to is look around or read the news. They expect Christians to sweep their evil under the rug and pretend they are holy.
@ JeffT:
Chalke had an excellent talk on what some have done to scripture, too
Jay wrote:
Are you referring to child molestation?
@ Darlene:
I think Jay is, too.
ODP = open discussion page here at TWW
Chris wrote:
Carl Trueman is part of that crew and a few years ago he and two others (Ortlund and DeYoung) declared Mahaney fit for ministry.
Jay wrote:
Why no, Jay, but did you forget who the ‘one another’ are? They are not the wolves who prey on the flock or the false teachers about whom we were warned. They are not those whom Jesus referenced in ‘not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord…’ And they are not those for whom Jesus recommended millstone therapy…
siteseer wrote:
I love the way you said that thing about ‘delicate people.’ You must have a gentle heart. Some folks I suppose are delicate as a weakness and we must both pray for them and set a good example for them but they probably may not deserve the allegation of cowardice which I was about to sling out there. But then I don’t actually see in scripture anything about delicacy as a virtue either, or for that matter no approval of simpering sweetness or hypocritical pretense or turning one’s back on the victimized and the wounded.
siteseer wrote:
They don’t really care if pew sitters complain but if they start withholding money, that is another thing. Note how guys like Pruitt refer to people who come to him about issues such as what happened at SGM: they are usually slanderers. That was very honest of Pruitt. That really is how they view the pewsitters who pay them.
What they are embarrassed about is secular media finally chiming in like the Washingtonian and radio talk. And the fact that more sicko problems out of SGM keep surfacing.
When that happens it is impossible to make it an internal tribal war as they have been doing. And harder to control with rebukes of bloggers as the tone police. On some of the SBC pastor blogs one cannot even mention Mahaney. On others where you can mention him, some chime in with it being old news and that is all some bloggers want to talk about. That is a different reaction than even a year ago when they defended him as having done nothing illegal.
He has become an embarrassment and now it is about saving the brand for some. And they will eventually say of Mahaney that he was never really Reformed. Just like they say about Driscoll.
Trueman has been trying to get on the right side of this without admitting his part in it. Such courageous men of God! (Sarcasm)
Jay wrote:
I see the goal of WW to bring accountability to “leaders” that have been systematically covering up bad stuff. The Bible did not shy away from calling a spad a spad. That is my point of Galatians 5:12…. Paul gets VERY sarcastic there. Is not covering child RAPIST/molestors worse? And more and more separate examples keep coming up from the SGM/CJ situation. However, delivering spiritual abuse to preserves one’s leadership position is almost as bad.
If the targets of most of the “ill comments” would repent, this blog would most probably go away. Most of us have better things to spend our time on…. But, the level of abuse exposed in the WW in the name of Christ cries out for people to stand up and say enough is enough. The world will respect Christainity more if Christainity is willing to STOP all of its internal “cover-ups” and be brutilly honest with itself… That is the Christain message…. We have all fallen, even the Neo-Calvinist leadership….
Jay wrote:
Lydia is correct. I work in a secular world, and Lydia’s comment is exactly correct. If SGM/CJ M. Had come clean years ago, all the current press would not exist.
Lydia wrote:
Jay wrote:
Who is being treated 'terribly'? We are having a much needed open discussion here.
Jay wrote:
Oh boy. Here they come. The ‘holier than thou’ shame-ers who think they understand Christianity but really only know how to fit in the forms created by the charlatans. They only know the “keep sweet” mantra taught by those who don’t want their evil deeds exposed by truth.
Sorry, Jay. But Christianity isn’t nicey, nicey behavioral modification. It is getting to the root of and issue and exposing darkness to the light of the Truth. This sort of thing can’t be done without ruffling a few feathers. It was the work of Jesus while He walked on this earth. And it is the work of His followers who must act as His hands and feet.
Also, Judgement begins in the House of God.
There is no way we can change the world as long as the money changers are in charge of the Church.
Darlene wrote:
You know, the last few years I’ve seen my old friends from church going to SO many conferences and I always wondered what that was about. Now it all makes sense somehow!
On another note, I re-read The Hiding Place this weekend. I’m torn between thinking all these pastors should read this book and thinking they would just think it meant everyone should forgive every bad thing immediately. Sort of interesting to read with all these scandals and bad behavior floating in my mind.
Also, she had a sister who refused to lie even when it was about the safety of jews while Corrie had no problem lying. She muses on what a Christian should do when authority is evil…
@ Lea:
Oh! One more thing I noted. When Corrie was trying to arrange a place for some jewish folks to hide, she asked a pastor. He chastised her for doing this and refused to take them and the people she had to hide in a less secure location were found out.
Jay wrote:
Jay, TWW authors have spent much time and effort to document their posts. Various commenters have come on with real-life experiences to confirm what they write. These folks are not mean-spirited, nor judgmental; some are contributing as observers, others as victims. They are speaking passionately and urgently as watchmen to inform and warn. They are telling it like it is. Truth is speaking with power and authority. “Truth is unkillable” (Balthasar Hubmaier).
Jay, if you are attempting to deter TWW and commenters from this mission because you support Mahaney and/or have been personally ensnared by New Calvinism, I urge you to come out from among them. Just because New Calvinist who’s-who support Mahaney, SGM, and other stray ministries, doesn’t mean they are right. Sometimes bloggers and commenters see what even the big dogs are blinded by.
Darlene wrote:
It was not perfect, but personally I am giving him some points just for mentioning ‘paychecks’ as one of these peoples motivations (and now that I’m looking at it, he also mentions alliances, ie good ole boy network):
“Certainly the reputation of Jesus and his gospel are of far greater worth than our conferences, paychecks, platforms, projects, and alliances.”
@ Lea:
What is lying? Corrie’s family smuggled a Jewish person out in a grandfather clock under the noses of the occupiers. They were constantly seeking to deceive the evil occupiers for a holy reason.
Her claim to never lying does not recognize deception as a tool to protect the lives of innocents. I could never understand her focus on not lying. This is brought up in some worldview curricula for Christian schools. It gets on my nerves. Have these people never heard of Rahab?
Btw, I met her when I was a little girl because my mom was doing the music for the event in which she spoke. I only remember her as formidable!
Lydia wrote:
I think that’s awesome that you met her! I’m sure she was formidable.
I apologize I misspoke, it was her sister who believed in not lying. Corrie thought that was bonkers and she herself did lie when she thought it necessary.
Jay,
Have you ever written to any of the men scheduled to speak at the T4G conference, calling into question the morality of them sharing the platform with a man who has conspired to cover-up the sexual abuse of children in his church, lied about his knowledge of the abuse, and blackmailed the co-leader of the denomination by threatening to make public the sexual sins of his son – revealed to him during a counseling session?
I have little patience with your type. You strike me as the type who would attack the Boston Globe writers for the harsh tone of their articles revealing the massive cover-up of sexual abuse in the Roman Catholic church.
“A world that had never seen a Christmas and never celebrated an Easter would still be a pagan world bereft of compassion for the poor, the sick, the weak, the marginalized, the victimized – the very people Jesus brings out of the shadows through his life and teaching. Jesus further establishes compassion as the way we are to relate to the weak and suffering when he makes our treatment of them the criterion for the final judgment in the parable of the sheep and goats. In that parable Jesus famously said, “as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me” (Matt. 25:40 ESV). Jesus has taught us to see the sick, the poor, the prisoner, and the stranger as his brothers… as our brothers… as Jesus himself!”
-A Farewell to Mars: An Evangelical Pastor’s Journey Toward the Biblical Gospel of Peace
by Brian Zahnd, Location 539, Kindle Edition
Deb wrote:
Deb, what you may not know, but will likely not be surprised by, is that Vintage has at least one self-confessed child molester who attends regularly. He is a former pastor in the Granville County area and was exposed when his daughter turned 18 and left for college. She confessed to her mom, who promptly left him and took their (three or four, I cannot remember) children to another state out west. It turns out he had abused not only this one daughter, but one of his neices and one of his wife’s sisters, too for a period spanning nearly a decade. The (now ex-) wife literally had no idea and turned him into the authorities the moment she learned.
UNFORTUNATELY, they were both native Hawaiians and the offenses took place in Hawaii. Hawaii investigated, and at least one was within the statute of limitations. All three accounts agreed and the guy did not deny the acts.
HOWEVER, Hawaii never arrested him and most people think its because he is a native Hawaiian and is a descendent of King Kamehameha (the daughter got a scholarship to UH because of her ancestry). NC could not arrest him because none of the offenses took place in this state.
Also, in case you’re wondering, Vintage’s ‘pastor’, Tyler Jones, was told about all this and did nothing except welcome this guy into his church. Oh, and the woman he is now with (whose marriage he broke up, after his wife left him).
@ Lea:
It wasn’t you who misspoke, it was me. I did not explain well. Some of the “biblical worldview” Christian curricula has the position of Corrie’s family not lying to hide Jews.
Lydia wrote:
To answer your questions: yes and yes.
Lydia wrote:
Oh, ok good. It seems that family members differed on that point. One of the things I really do like about the book is that we see Corrie struggling in a realistic way with these things. She talks about being angry, and wishing bad things on people and trying to get past it to love even the ones who have been evil to her.
But one of the sisters actually tells the truth, that girl is a jew!, and things actually turned out ok. So a bit of a mixed message I guess?
Jay wrote:
Darlene wrote:
And that’s part of the problem. When anyone in the Reformed movement does make a statement against SGM, people pick it apart because it is not perfect. Many among the Reformed feel they are in a “no-win” situation where they must disavow entirely everyone and everything in the movement or else be seen as a compromiser or even as an enabler of child abuse.
Max wrote:
But Jay is a True Believer(TM).
Truth is whatever SGM and Chuckles Ceej say it is.
“Two Plus Two Equals Five – GOD SAITH!” (HUMBLY, of course.)
“I REJECT *YOUR* REALITY AND SUBSTITUTE MY OWN!” — Mythbusters
Burwell wrote:
Which one?
Pastor or Kamehameha?
Lydia wrote:
I would like to think that Pruitt is gradually becoming uneasy about Trueman’s role in keeping Mahaney propped up, and that his most recent blog post is part of an effort to make amends for that.
I would like to think that. But, as others have pointed out, his choice of words and his focus on saving “the Doctrines of Grace” and “the Lord’s reputation” are not very encouraging.
Lydia wrote:
60 years ago, it would have been Communism instead of Calvinism.
okrapod wrote:
Come to think of it, don’t Comps and Patriarchs like their wimmenfolk Delicate and Sweet?
(Except for Queen Bee married to Pastor Patriarch, of course. Rank Hath Its Privileges.)
And I keep thinking of a term coined by St Thomas Aquinas:
“The Gluttony of Delicacy”.
Darlene wrote:
Doncha know NOBODY was Saved until CALVIN came along?
(And it’s not just the Reformed(TM) crowd. PSA is also Universal among Non-Denoms & Fundagelicals.)
David (Eagle) wrote:
I keep thinking “The Mirrors of Tuzun Thune” by Robert E Howard…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mirrors_of_Tuzun_Thune
Lydia wrote:
I didn’t even know there was anything other than PSA until I “Noned and Doned” in the late Seventies. These days I’m more into Christus Victor — direct and to the point.
Cosmic Justification.
“If GOD can Abuse HIS Son, then it’s OK if I abuse mine!”
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Money quote:
“We abandon the basis for much personal and social effort in the fight against sickness, death, injustice and fate, when we submit to an idea about God wanting every situation we experience. Perhaps the diminishing interference, the guilt about real grief or the lack of passion in general in the face of any evil by sections of the evangelical church in the course of normal, but tragic events of human life explains that in their heart and mind they have become Muslims. When all events are the will of God, the only remaining effort is to make people believe that.”
(By force, if necessary. GOD WILLS IT!)
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
It is interesting to study the idea of “force”. We tend to think only of gun point but it takes in much more than that. Cultural acceptance, fear of punishment, fear of being marginalized by your tribe, systematizing behavior, etc. The various ways this has been accomplished through out history are interesting. In totalitarian societies a person who disagreed publicly was often branded as mentally unstable.
js wrote:
Speaking only for myself, JS, I was initially very pleased to read Pruitt’s blog post, and his call for Mahaney to be taken off the podium. I didn’t set out to “pick apart” his words, but certain phrases and emphases just kind of leapt out at me.
In particular, as I mentioned above, there was his concern in the last paragraph for the things like “Doctrines of Grace”. It’s hard for me to understand why he seems to think those are so important — why he even mentions them, in relation to a scandal involving the sexual abuse of children. It seems to me that, right now, matters like doctrine should take a distant backseat to compassion for victims and to the future protection of the most vulnerable.
My concern is not that Pruitt’s statement isn’t perfect; my concern is that his characterization of this crisis might be a reflection of his heart. That leads me to question what is really near and dear to him.
I do agree 100% with one thing that Pruitt wrote: “It should never have reached this point.” Neo-Reformed leaders, pastors and writers should have spoken out against Mahaney long before now. If they do so only now, when it’s clear that the negative attention won’t simply go away, it’s perfectly reasonable for people outside their camp to wonder why.
Well, thank you for considering my question. The attacks on me persinally aren’t necessary. I am not taking sides, just trying to undersrand.
So thank you for making it clear – you see nothing wrong with this approach. That is your right and privilege. Only eternity will tell.
Well, thank you for considering my question. The attacks on me persinally aren’t necessary. I am just trying to understand
js wrote:
If their statements are hedging, people are going to recognize that.
Maybe it is time that people turned back to following Jesus instead of human leaders.
js wrote:
I am thankful that Todd Pruitt appealed for Mahaney to be removed as a speaker from T4G. I expressed those sentiments to him in a private email. That said I don’t believe Reformed leaders believe they must disavow everyone and everything or else be seen as an enabler of child abuse. I don’t believe readers of this blog believe it either. However, I don’t think it is unreasonable for us to expect Christians in leadership positions to exercise discernment and not speak at Mahaney’s church, invite him to speak at conferences, or share the stage with the man.
It is no longer a case of “he said, she said.” Mahaney has claimed his innocence in his only public statement concerning the lawsuit. Susan Burke has said she has evidence that would prove the contrary. Mahaney’s brother-in-law testified in court that the pastors knew of Nate Morales abuse and did not inform law enforcement. Happy Mom, the mother of children abused in Sovereign Grace, has affirmed in this blog that Mahaney wrote her emails about her case. Joshua Harris, in an interview in a Washington newspaper granted just prior to his departure for Canada, said they knew of abuse.
Leaders such as Dever, Duncan and Mohler have chosen to ignore the facts. So has every other plenary speaker scheduled to share the platform at this weekend’s T4G conference with C.J. Mahaney. In my opinion, they deserve to have scorn heaped on them. They have chosen fame and fortune over justice and love.
Jay wrote:
Jay, where were you attacked? Disagreement does not constitute an attack.
@ js:
Wanting Perfection is the problem? Can you point me to anything about the victims except he saw them as malcontents and most are really slanderers. But he says that NOW, (after years of blogging stories of victims, the secular media investigating, lawsuits, Nate Morales trial and conviction) there MIGHT be something to this? Is he to be taken seriously and praised?
Why not just spit on the victims? It would be more honest.
@ siteseer:
These types always end up making themselves the victim.
Jay, are you aware of Mark Driscoll, Mars Hill, the endorsement of him by the Neo-Cal movement, what it took to get him to resign….. And all of the associated fall-out???? It should never have to come to what it did. Mark Driscoll was confronted privately for over 10 years, and only when it became REALLY public did he finally have to step down…. The shame/embarrassment on Christianity by his behavior is a disgrace… Many of Mark Driscoll's public sermons/talks, are downright disgusting…… Like calling women "penis homes"??? Jay wrote:
Jay wrote:
Perhaps.
But I doubt it. You have used several tactics taken from the unwritten handbook on how to undermine and discredit those who are exposing the ugly underbelly of your tribe.
It could be coincidence. But the evidence of your words speak otherwise. The evidence screams out that you have a side and are not really trying to understand.
Lydia wrote:
I think that could be an encouraging sign, IF he realizes that his initial assumptions were dead wrong and corrects them in the future. I certainly hope that is his response.
I think there were encouraging and concerning things in that article.
I wonder how Pruitt feels about extending the statute of limitations on these crimes…
Lydia wrote:
@ Lydia:
My thought exactly. Even Driscoll claimed to be a victim! These folks are quick to look at everyone else as accusers of the brethren, without taking a serious assessment of the situation at hand. In an attempt to take the light off of themselves and their actions (New Calvinism is a rebellious movement), New Calvinists claim the high road of humility and unity … it’s part of the sham to silence the opposition. Those who set themselves up as Christian celebrities (idols) are blind; idol-worship is blinding. We need more “judge those who are within the church” … not less. Good Lord! When will this madness end?!
@ Lydia:
Do you reckon “Jay” and “JS” are one and the same?
Jay wrote:
Well, Jay, while we are talking about understanding. Do you have any case studies which show instances where being sweet/nice to child sex abusers or being sweet/nice to those who protect them actually caused a decrease in child sex abuse and/or an increase in the number of people who of their own free will turn themselves in to the civil authorities as a self admitted sexual predator? If not, then I do not understand why you would object to other techniques which might lead to better results.
Nor do I see what reasoning leads anybody to think that niceness is more important than the safety of the children. Nor can I quote chapter and verse where Jesus said that those who are not nice would be better off with the old millstone thing.
My first paragraph is pragmatic and is about how to get things done.
My second paragraph is about prioritizing values.
Any help you can give me to understand the thinking of those who disagree with me would be appreciated. You may want to wait for eternity for this but I prefer now–for the sake of the children.
Jay, how can you read the painful testimonies of the victims in their sworn statements and still remain so “nice.” It only makes you psychopathically cold, not Christian. If you are a victim yourself and the Christian pedophile ring has brainwashed you into being the way you are, so nice and forgiving and sweetly talking about your Christian abusers and Christians who covered it up and the Christians who refused to listen to your cries for justice, and the Christians who tell the angry Christians to be sweet, then I am so so sorry, and we take you in with open arms and let you cry any way you want to. If none of this applies to you, check out the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist Survivors Facebook page to see the natural outcome of Christian abuse. No one holds back there. Why? Because most can’t believe in God at all because of the leaders who should have millstones tied around their necks for hurting the little ones. Jesus said that, not me. The Wartburg Watch is as kind to these kind of aberrant leaders as can be, supernaturally so IMO.
Wow Okrapod, we were thinking of the millstone at the exact same time!
@ Lydia:
There is a lot of truth to this Lydia. When I was an agnostic/atheist being invited to Sovereign Grace amidst all the scandal, blackmail, and allegations of criminal activity helped justify atheism. It gave it credence.
Patti wrote:
This.is.it.
@ Dave (Eagle):
When the New Calvinism bubble finally breaks (it will) and their leaders fade into obscurity (they will), I fear that we will have a LOT of disillusioned young folks who will never go to church again.
@ okrapod:
I refer to it as “totalitarian niceness”. :o)
@ Max:
The tribe is awfully big. Eight thousand of them are in my city now to hear Mahaney preach on Job’s suffering. Lock up the children.
Max wrote:
When the money dries up!
@ Lea:
I have been around this game so long that I know the tactics all too well. Pruitt is trying to save the brand —not help victims. I think we have seen so little of true remorse for enabling evil to little children,we don’t know what it looks like. The irony is true remorse would mean we never hear of Mahaney again. He would not even milk repentance.
People are often impressed with associations or titles. Don’t forget, Trueman, of the same site, exonerated Mahaney in the whole molestation debacle.
Burwell wrote:
I’m wondering if ‘pastor’ Jones would have been as accommodating if the guy had been caught doing the hanky-panky with another consenting adult, not his spouse.
In terms of likelihood? Probably not. The absolute worst offense in fundagelicalism is having sex with another consenting adult outside of marriage. Your hash is settled, your goose is cooked so to speak.
@ js:
He certainly did not need to insult victims (malcontents, slanderers) or blogger’s who discuss the evils (as heaping scorn on) “christian” leaders perpetuate.
Why was that necessary to his message about Mahaney? To play the fence?
Max wrote:
Nones to whom Christianity is a cancer that needs to be utterly wiped from the face of the earth.
“Take Your God And Shove It!” on steroids.
“And they — they called Lord Shardik — The God of the Child Slavers!”
— Richard Adams, Shardik
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shardik
Muff Potter wrote:
Doubleplusworse if said consenting adult is of the same sex.
Lydia wrote:
“WHITE NIGHT! DRINK THE POTION! DRINK THE POTION!”
Patti wrote:
With the Truly Reformed, is there a difference?
Remember, “Stay Sweet”…
I see The Jay Show has managed to completely sidetrack and pre-empt our regularly-scheduled program…
Max wrote:
Nope.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
You should never call out anyone for sidetracking, HUG.
Lydia wrote:
I don’t know his motives. I think he called for the right thing and I agree with him.
Lydia wrote:
That means the local bars near the convention center have stocked up on Calvinus beer!
Lydia wrote:
Posted on the T4G Facebook page: “Attendees, there’s a great selection of books in the T4G Bookstore!” Young reformers, remember to bring your spending money!
Lydia, since the conference is in your city, I noted that someone posted on T4G Facebook today that they have an extra ticket due to a cancellation! Only $304, includes meal plan! Here’s your chance! Grab it and report back to us!! (Hopefully, some young reformer started reading TWW and canceled out!)
@ Burwell:
Yes, this is definitely news to me.
The other thing I know about Vintage Church is that Wayne Grudem's son Elliot is a pastor there.
Max wrote:
Two weeks from now, I’ll be bringing my spending money to the dealer’s room of a My Little Pony fan convention. I think I’ll be getting better value for the buck than the Young Reformers in their T4G virtual dealer’s room.
(And I’m only spending $60 for a three-day attending membership instead of $304. $304 sounds like scalper’s price for a WorldCon…)
Max wrote:
Are these Calvinists “Baptists” and does that mean I can drag all my ‘difference between a Baptist and a Methodist” jokes out?
Lydia, I don’t know enough about that author to say whether he is deflecting or sincere. As I said, I saw things I liked and things I didn’t in that article. But at least he is trying to call them out about CJ! That’s better than most of them. So half points.
Max wrote:
Maybe one of those seminary students clamoring for a ticket last week so they can receive course credit will snap it up!
On a related note, it appeared that attendance at T4G has been going up by about 2,000 every two years. Could it be that seminary students from the various Southern Baptist seminaries who attend to get course credit may be one of the reasons for a rise in attendance?
Deb wrote:
Most likely a contributing factor, coupled with the chance of a lifetime to see all your New Calvinist idols on one stage! They might even make eye contact with you or sign your book! The young reformers will be scrambling for aisle seats for the chance to touch one of the big dogs.
@ Max:
$304!!!!????!! YIKES.
Melody wrote:
On that note, I want to know how much the speakers get paid, how it is taxed, and how much the convention center makes out of it…I know they are giving away a lot of books for free, but that's an advertising ploy… Just YIKES.
Melody wrote:
Like I said, Scalper’s Prices for WorldCon.
(Though one local NBA game — the last one for a retiring Celebrity NBA Star — recently reported non-scalper’s prices of up to $20,000 a front-row seat (minimum purchase a block of 4 seats…)
Lydia wrote:
Lydia, I noticed that comment about Driscoll in Pruitt’s article. It was convenient to have him in their camp when he was the greatest thing going out in the Northwest, with thousands of people attending Mars Hill campuses. Even if he was a loose cannon, most of the Neo-Cal clan would not disown him outright. It was only when Mars Hill imploded and the scandals became public in the secular news that they became embarrassed by the *Crazy Uncle Mark* and wanted nothing more to do with him. But, then…what about the *brand* as you say? Well, it isn’t enough to disown Crazy Uncle Mark, they have to declare him *Not Reformed* – *Never a Calvinist*! I think that goes straight to their soteriology – when someone messes up REALLY BAD, they were never one of the Saved to begin with. There – problem taken care of.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
yeah I did some math and the costs, to be fair, aren’t that unreasonable [by American standards]- yet I am shocked at how much Christians are forking out for these cult events. And the emphasis on books written by clones of each other, well, I’m going to shut up now; I’m tired of it all. Got my Bible; I’m ok.
Jay wrote:
Jay your response is out of the passive aggressive handbook. First you made accusations about the commentary here without giving specifics. You were asked by several for the specific comments that you deemed out of line and I have not seen a response.
Now you follow it up with the same tact with non specific accusations you were attacked. You were not attacked, unless disagreement passes for attack in your neck of the woods. You have provided little understanding what your position is other than accuse those here without providing specifics. Are you okay with the actions of Mahaney?
You came into the room guns blazing making accusations and now you are casting yourself as the hapless victim. I have dealt with far too many self righteous passive aggressive silencers in my many years and right now your comments fall into the same MO.
Melody wrote:
Time was when we were supposed to feel guilty for even eating the school lunch when surely we could have brought a PBJ from home and given the money we saved to missions in darkest africa because after all there were children starving in China. Or something like that.
Like some old man kept saying, my my how things change.
Jay wrote:
I already said I won’t resort to quoting bible versus back at you but I believe it is pretty clear that not taking sides in a case of corruption and child abuse is not going go over well in that eternity you refer to.
If you are truly trying to understand, then you would have started off with a question and not an accusation.
Deb wrote:
T4G sounds like a pyramid scheme.
@ Bill M:
Absolutely.
What exactly does a pastor have to do for someone to relinquish their high regard for them, and what exactly would a pastor have to do to loose another persons high regard because they are blessed by them? May I offer some options?
1. The pastor is caught in multiple adulterous relationships.
2. The pastor is caught lying and cheating repeatedly.
3. The pastor is caught stealing money from the offerings.
4. The pastor is whatever…
What exactly is the level of bad deeds that has to be arrived at before someone who adores a pastor looses their respect for them?
Seems like an old boys network to me. If someone can help me make sense of this, please help me out.
LateToTheGame wrote:
Sex (as in adultery—doesn’t need to be serial) or money. Other sins apparently don’t really rank in terms of disqualifying someone from the role of pastor–even temporarily.
Lying won’t do it because no one wants to believe the pastor has lied about something. They will do all kinds of mental gymnastics to avoid that conclusion. Or they will stick their fingers in their ears: lalalala. It doesn’t rank high enough.
Anyway, sexual sins or financial sins. Also big business no-no’s: losing the customer base or financial problems in the church (whether do to sin or something else is irrelevant. When church is a business, that’s the way it goes.). Business problems will get someone shown the door faster than lying, pride, bullying, narcissism, etc. if those sins are not affecting numbers of people in attendance and the amount of offering in the plate.
@ Lydia:
I am interested to know if he is being pressured by members of his congregation to take a stand against Mahaney. So he is trying to please both sides. The thing I thought about was he sees the writing on the wall, and this way he can say that when the house of cards falls he warned them. All I see anymore by any of these guys is male ego. I actually feel scared looking at all their big church elder boards, excuse me, Pruitt’s Ruling Elders with nothing but scary male faces looking back at me with creepy sweet smiles. Ya, that brings people into the kingdom alright.
The problem with the fence though, is he will be shot from both sides. He is going to take a hit from Mahaney’s crowd, I’m sure. But even as slimy as his confrontation was, at least it can be used for more awareness of what is going on.
Something like 30 years ago my cousins husband was a pastor over a small church in North Carolina. They were and still are wonderful people.
He, my cousins husband brought home a drug attic, with the wife’s consent, in order to help the man, when the man was released from jail. My cousin and her husband had a 16 year old daughter. Guess what happened? The drug addict who they were trying to help got their daughter pregnant.
The church knew what happened. I mean, they were and are wonderful people, trying to help out someone. So, the church overwhelmingly said you are still our pastor. But he said no and would not remain as pastor. He said, he made such a bad decision that he did not feel himself qualified to be their pastor anymore.
My friends, that is judging yourself and being honest; at least in my book. They have had a rough time since then, but God has provided.
@ Deb:
I have been wondering the same! After the stunt they pulled with the SGM pastors college it seems like anything goes as long as you are not caught.
It could also be they have scholarships/sponsors. Some of these guys spend their last dime to get there instead of on their family. I know, we hosted one several years back as a favor.
Patti wrote:
Remember, in reformed circles, ministry leaders have absolutely nothing to do with bringing folks into the Kingdom. The Calvinist God predetermines who will be saved and who will be damned before they ever draw breath. This, of course, is a misrepresentation of the character of God, which is love; limited atonement diminishes the Cross of Christ – a sacrifice for ALL people who believe. Thus, reformed elders have a reason to have creepy smiles – they have a creepy belief system.
@ LateToTheGame:
Incredible story. Rare. Noble.
@ Max:
Oh yes, I know all too well, I was raised in a traditional Christian Reformed Church. I always thought of God as some big Egotistical creator in the sky who made us for his pleasure. We were just chess pieces on his game board that he made out of clay. I was also raised in the nearest Christian school which was a non-Calvinist IFB (GARB really but the stories are the same). That God was supposed to love me but I never felt it. My parents became AG when I was 17. He sounded a little better than the other two, but by that time I told my dad I wanted nothing to do with this God I’m supposed to love that seems like he hates me. At least his and my mom’s new Pastor let me drop the words “to love and obey” in mine and my husband’s traditional wedding ceremony 35 years ago. When I was 30 I met Jesus Christ for the first time after that whole upbringing of nonstop churching and bible verse memorizing. With all the denominational fighting about doctrine, I told God,
‘its you, me and the Bible, I don’t trust the men’s theology, they only quote other men, not you.” Now of course I’ve learned since that is not true for all. But it sure seems to be making a comeback. How many tweet even do you see that are just some other celebrity pastor dude’s words. Don’t count Piper’s, please 🙂
Bill M wrote:
According to a recent study, flipping one-eighty and “casting yourself as the hapless Victim” is the most common characteristic of a Sociopath. (And/or a Abuser; the smart ones always have a fallback position in case they get caught.)
Lydia wrote:
Amen. I want to know why he began by assuming they were just slanderers and malcontents and how long did he hold that position and refuse to look into the claims? Maybe if all of these guys did not respond in this way, it wouldn’t come to a point like this? His article was ok, as far as it went.
I, personally, find it hard to relate to these guys who are so full of love for their theological position, their doctrines, their leaders, and their organization, to where Jesus is barely mentioned last as kind of an afterthought. How many words of praise did he devote to the former as opposed to the latter? Which is paining him more, the loss of status of his organization or the horror of what was done to innocents?
Lydia, here is another incredible story. It was around 1998. My wife and I were in a married couple care group at CLC. We got a new pastor over us and the care group. The man had been a pastor for at least 20 years by then; he had been a pastor before being at GOB/CLC.
In the middle of the first meeting, he says pretty much these words, if not exactly, “You all would be really impressed if you knew who your senior pastor communicates (is in touch with) on a regular basis.” Meaning, that we would all be in awe if we knew who the celebrity big name men in the Christian world were that CJ was hob nobbing with. Well, I was not impressed, in fact, we were the exact opposite. It’s one of the reasons why we left.
As for the pastor who said it, I could not believe he was that stupid. And I say stupid because that’s the right word. I lost all respect for the man, that he would say and think such a thing. And that was around 1998 by my recollection.
@ LateToTheGame:
Wow, and yes as Lydia said that is rare. So rare that I can’t help but wonder if it is the same story a counselor told me after I got Jesus for real and she was helping me through some of my trauma from my dad’s prison ministry guys he opened our house to. And after hearing my story, she decided to cut way back on her counselling and pay more attention to her own family too. I understand the passion now that they had, but it isn’t right to risk your own children who have no say in who the house is opened to.
And that is also why I stopped going to or having small groups that churches these days make you be a part of as members.
LateToTheGame wrote:
As in the Familiar Spirit he’s Channeling?
LateToTheGame wrote:
I think it is only when a blatant sin directly affects them, personally.
siteseer wrote:
Don’t forget the ManaGAWD they see in the mirror…
Max wrote:
The entrance fee is $304.00??? And how many are attending this conference? I can hear Pink Floyd’s “Money” right about now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpbbuaIA3Ds
@ LateToTheGame:
If one of these guys said it was OK to be a stay at home dad, you’d never hear from them again.
Jay wrote:
There are so many logical fallacies in that one short opinion that I refuse to engage you. If you don’t have the good manners to engage your brain before typing, I certainly feel no compunction to do so for you.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Can you post a link?
LateToTheGame wrote:
Your story provide a contrast with the crowd we are discussing here. That this pastor twice chose a hard path that did not benefit him personally demonstrated character that is lacking in the Mahaney/T4G company.
Darlene wrote:
For clarification, the vast majority of attendees are not paying this much. There was a reduced registration fee for students (perhaps $99?), an early bird registration fee, and a regular registration fee of $249. The registration closed the day before the price jumped to $329.
I’m guessing the $304 is comprised of the registration fee of $249 and the meal plan, which must have been $55. Perhaps someone can confirm.
Darlene wrote:
The fellow posting availability of his “ticket” for $304 indicated that price included a “meal plan.” But even if you factored out the cost of food, it looks like T4G will rake in over $2 million, with 8,000 registered for the event. After taking out cost for the venue, T4G will be able to add some hefty dollars to its bank account. And then there are book and who’s-who bobble-head sales, and the “We Protest” tee-shirt revenue. I’m sure all of the elites on the platform there will decline speaker fees ;^).
Bill M wrote:
No, I don’t know where it is on the Web. I remember someone in this blog mentioning it a couple months ago, which is how I learned about it. I do not know if this has anything to do with the book The Sociopath Next Door, but I think the two are linked in some fashion.
Patti wrote:
SBC-YRR church plants in my area call them “LifeGroups”, but there ain’t much life flowing through them. The meetings are carefully controlled by hand-picked small group leaders who essentially parrot the pastor’s Sunday “sermon”, with added discussion intended to indoctrinate in reformed theology. Small groups are a way to corral the members during the week and squash dissent when it rears its head. Those asking too many questions are flagged for future shunning. It’s a wonderful life, this New Calvinism (not).
Stan wrote:
Treason and Thoughtcrime.
Deb wrote:
Why would a conference or event like this come with a “meal plan”?
LateToTheGame wrote:
YRR pastors tweet their lives away on a regular basis; they think if they re-tweet Piper, they are communicating with him! These guys live for the next Piper Point, Mohler Moment, Driscoll Drivel, etc. New Calvinism is a strange little world of idol-worship and name-dropping.
@ Deb:
Then my estimate (posted in an earlier comment) of a $2 million event is high … perhaps more like $1 million if you consider the student registration rate.
js wrote:
HUG can do whatever he wants to. I don’t think you are in the right place to be telling him what he should or shouldn’t be saying.
Heck, I don’t think I’m in the position to tell YOU what you should or should not be saying.
Todd Wilhlem wrote:
Today is the pre-conference for the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, with the usual suspects on board. I noted one hashtag making the rounds among the fanbois today: #standwithCJ. I expect we’ll see more of that hashtag throughout the rest of the week.
Oh yeah, I should mention that Owen Strachan was very unhappy that his hashtag of #CBMW16 got “hijacked.” As I told him, he doesn’t own the hashtag and if he really thought people like me were going to let him preach his patriarchy masquerading as comp (not spelling it out, it’s not a word), then he was seriously wrong.
And one thing I learned today, from looking at a book called “All the Single Ladies” by Rebecca Traister. For the first time in American history, since 2009, there have been more single adult women in the USA than married adult women. Contrast this to 60 percent married in 1960, the year I was born. And comp doctrine is so fixated by marriage as the center of its “gospel,” it’s going to miss over 50 percent of adult women.
siteseer wrote:
This is what I wondered about as well. The message that came through for me in reading Pruitt’s article is that he is more concerned with the image of Reformed theology, i.e.: the Doctrines of Grace, Complementarianism, etc. Yes, he is making an appeal for the conference organizers to remove C.J. Mahaney from the roster of speakers. In and of itself, that is a good thing. But why I am not impressed with the plea overall, is because the thrust of the article is not about the victims of sexual abuse and how they have been ignored, marginalized and insulted. Rather, the thrust of the article is praising Reformed theology, giving accolades to Dever, Mohler, and Duncan who have enabled C.J. Mahaney to have a stage and an audience, and being concerned that the image of Reformed theology and it’s tenets will be scandalized in the community at large.
By the way, here is Pruitt’s follow-up post because he received a lot of feed back on the original article that we’re discussing here.
http://www.alliancenet.org/mos/1517/a-follow-up-to-my-post-on-t4g#.Vww92_krLIV
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
“Self-Victimization” is one of the “Top 100 Traits” of people who suffer from personality disorders, according to the Out of the FOG website. For these traits, they give a definition, description, a section on “what it looks like,” how it feels, and what to do/not do. This is an immensely helpful website that I go back to frequently when doing research/reflection on situations involving people with NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) and/or ASPD (Antisocial Personality Disorder; sociopathic)
http://outofthefog.website/top-100-trait-blog/2015/11/4/self-victimization
mirele wrote:
sick little puppies
sick little lick spittles
@ Max:
I went to a ‘life group’ with a big church on Valentine’s Day (out of town with a friend). The girl leading it was depressed I think so she had us write a nice thing about everyone in the room. I knew (kind of) like 5 people. My answers were funny. They also had a marriage Valentine’s Day sermon! As a single person who recently came off a very bad experience with a guy, this was lots of fun.
I really enjoyed home groups when I was a kid though.
Lea wrote:
Lea, I’ve led small groups for several years. They can be great fellowship around the Word and sharing life experiences as Christians. They should never be structured indoctrination in theology, as in the case of reformed meetings.
Max wrote:
My church small group is great. It’s not mandatory and no indoctrination. Just good food.
Deb wrote:
Anyone interested in hearing Mahaney’s “sermon”, can follow it on livestream. I believe it is free access, as long as you are willing to provide your contact info. Check it out at http://live.t4g.org/ Note: the event starts tomorrow (April 12) and runs through April 14. Not sure when Mahaney is speaking.
Muff Potter wrote:
Unless you’re a real celebrity, and then you might have your elders covering up for you, like a certain pastor in Florida did, as it emerged recently.
Max wrote:
Max, you’re going to have to replace “Driscoll Drivel” because the Calvinist Camp has disowned him for the most part – per Pruitt’s article, Driscoll was never Reformed. Now, who do you think warrants the prestige with the Neo-Cal Movement to replace Driscoll? 😉
Darlene wrote:
Can I just say how irritating it is for these Neo-Cals not to take care of their problem children before they’re loosed upon a new population? Signed, that red(fake)-headed woman with the sign on the northeast corner of McDonald Drive and 84th Street in Scottsdale.
mirele wrote:
Mirele, I just starting looking at Strachen’s tweets, and he had this to say (perhaps you read it already): “The women in our churches should be able to say that no man has ever treated me better than complementarian men.” They have a long way to go! By the way, where is your twitter exchange with him? Can you post it here to TWW?
Oh my, here’s a tweet from Strachen who is at the pre-conference in Louisville. Dig this:
“The church must recover biblical manhood-Christian masculinity, a sanctified testosterone.”
I tell ya, sometimes Christians look like nut cases.
Darlene wrote:
OK … how about “Dever Drivel”? or “Duncan Donuts”?
Darlene wrote:
Sounds like a sick, twisted inferiority complex.
@ Darlene</
Darlene wrote:
IMPOSSIBLE!!! An egalitarian man will always treat me better than any complementarian man ever can! I want to BE equally relevant, that’s all! Simple! Why is that so difficult for them to grasp! I am NOT jealous of my complementarian friends whose husbands treat them like princesses and I never will be.
@ Max:
Can anyone tell me why Pruitt made that comment about Driscoll. I watched his sermons years ago and Driscoll was total and complete Calvinist. He even named one of his son’s Calvin because he likes John Calvin so much. What has Driscoll done or said that isn’t Calvin like, different baptism, Holy Spirit baptism? Isn’t Mahaney a charismatic baptizing Calvinist?
@ Patti:
Driscoll is in the process of re-inventing himself as a Charismatic Calvinist … which doesn’t come alongside mainline New Calvinism. But his core theology is reformed to the core. I’m sure he will put a new spin on things to try to recover his market share of the reformed movement. He’s always re-inventing himself … once emergent, he became resurgent, and messed up enough to be submergent for a while. In his unrepentant comeback, he will do what he needs to in order to get back in the limelight.
Patti wrote:
But, but, but …… how do you ever know if you’re rinsing all of the soap suds off of the glasses??!!! : )
@ Max:
No girlz!
js wrote:
Except for the malcontents, slanderers and scorners. :o)
We don’t need to know motives. He said it all. Mahaney is an embarrassment for his hero’s.
@ Max:
I was out of town this afternoon/evening. It did rain. Hope that did not hinder the protest.
Deb wrote:
I think he used to work for Driscoll, too. It is like some sort of dynastic fraternity.
Patti wrote:
My guess: Driscoll has Outlived His Usefulness. He has embarrassed the Neo-Calvinist Party so often and for so long that, in Pruitt’s mind, he is no longer One Of Us.
And Mahaney might be next in line, if Pruitt’s statement is any indication.
Max wrote:
“Duncan Donuts”! XD
I’ve got one. What does everyone think of “Mahaney Malarkey”?
Too much of a mouthful?
@ Darlene:
You can’t be serious! He really tweeted that???? Is he competing with Piper for the most inane tweets award?
@ LateToTheGame:
Now I am impressed with you! I wish I had been that wise to recognize the red flag and walk away (it never gets better). I could have saved myself and family incredible misery.
@ Max:
Well, actually, no, he’s never been truly Reformed the way Internet Monk would have described it. 🙂 There are so many points about ecclesiology and Driscoll’s Amyraldianism that would never go over with actually Reformed types. For lazy TULIP Baptists, maybe, Driscoll counts as “Reformed” but for old cranky-pants Presbyterians from the OPC wing Driscoll’s never been someone to cheer. It’s pretty straightforward if you’ve managed to keep tabs on the different teams in the last fifteen years … but … that’s not necessarily always easy.
I doubt he’s going to do as much to tout his Reformed side. He may even eventually decide to be egalitarian charismatic. It would create more opportunities for Grace to do ministry. The kids are getting older and will eventually all move out of the house. Driscoll didn’t start off as a Calvinist at all. He also used to be a cessationist. If we want to be really cynical about his doctrinal approach it’d be better to propose he’ll go where the money is, not attempt to propose whether he has a coherent doctrinal approach any more.
Darlene wrote:
I believe this is the thread in question: https://twitter.com/ostrachan/status/719579327424176129
Mirele, please feel free to correct me.
Awww, did the Eeebill Feminists steal Owen’s pwecious hashtag? Poor widdle manly man… bwess his widdle heart. (Thanks, Gram3!)
@ Nancy2:
Hahaha! They had their CBMW conference today. Wonder if the soap bubble lady’s husband was there instructing the boys on such? So much to learn, so little time.
@ Jeffrey Chalmers:
I think I decided that was as good a life verse any (back a few weeks ago when we were all talking about such things)
@ Patti:
Driscoll was a Calvinist when he was extremely vulgar and “going all OT” on people. If I had a dollar for every time a Neo Cal defended Driscoll with.. “But he preaches the gospel!” I would be rich. It was a mantra for at least 7 years to excuse all things Driscoll in my neck of the woods. Driscoll was repenting every month. Shampoo, rinse, repeat the magic words.
So what decalvinized him, I wonder? Does this mean all the ‘Reformed only’ Acts 29 churches are really fake Calvinist now because Driscoll wrote the pastor training curriculum.
Maybe Pruitt will enlighten us? You think he will strip Mahaney of his Calvinist uniform, too?
mirele wrote:
Yeah, forgot about that. As HUG would say: “Rank hath its privileges…”
@ WenatcheeTheHatchet:
I first read about him in Donald Miller’s, “Blue Like Jazz” as the cool cussing pastor. Part of the emergent scene. Very full of himself, it seemed to me.
I personally believe Calvin was a quasi NPD/sociopath. (Especially comes out in his letters!)
@ WenatcheeTheHatchet:
The original Internet Monk came off as more Lutheran Reformef to me.
Lydia wrote:
Lydia, I don’t know if it originated with him or not but he definitely tweeted it as if it’s worth passing on. Go over to Julie Anne’s blog and get a hoot out of the testosterone tweets being made by CBMW supporters.
http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-best-of-michael-spencer-real-apologetics
Speaking of Micheal Spencer, here is his last post which brings perspective. I miss him.
@ Darlene:
“Testosterone tweets”. That is a keeper.
Lydia wrote:
Why do you think they call it TWITter?
Here’s a tweet some TWW readers might enjoy: “2 minutes of speaking and my heart is already overwhelmed with God’s greatness. I love @John Piper.”
Doesn’t this person mean they are overwhelmed with Piper’s greatness? TWW could do a whole series of articles on the tweets being made in support of this conference. I think it’s going to get off the charts crazy when C.J. gets on stage.
Another tweet: “Men in churches are corks of testosterone bobbing in a sea of estrogen.”
Another CBMW supporter tweets:
“Churches need to understand and embrace sanctified testosterone.” #ActLikeMen
How exactly does a church embrace such a thing? I’m really puzzled. This is beyond bizarre, but that is a good thing. People will be able to see the mindset of these Comp folks and deduce that somethin’ just ain’t right.
Darlene wrote:
Never mind that. How do you “sanctify” testosterone in the first place?
They’re all turning into mini-Pipers, mindlessly tweeting and repeating loopy word salad, just like the Pied One himself.
@ Lydia:
In the later years, yes, but back circa 2001-2002 he was more Calvinist.
He was even also somewhat pro-Driscoll. He had a mainly positive review of Confessions of a Reformission Rev ten years ago. Given that ten years ago the most vocal objections to Driscoll within the Christian internet scene was Slice of Laodicea and Pyromaniacs I wasn’t too shocked that Spenser didn’t agree with them. It was hard to begrudge Michael being skeptical about that kind of dislike of Driscoll and ten years ago I was still a member, though the first seeds of leaving came for me when I saw Confessions came out and instead of it being an actual history of MH that included more of the William Wallace II stuff it was basically a “how I did this” manual. It was ten years ago I started getting an idea that someone ought to document the history of Mars Hill in a way that wasn’t just glossy PR.
@ Darlene:
OK. Totally creeped out. This sounds almost medieval. Like some sort of pagan rite adopted for Dark Age xtianity.
The pimply faced boy followers eat this meaningless stuff up.
@ WenatcheeTheHatchet:
I didn’t start reading him and tell his post Driscoll days I guess. In fact it sounded like he was starting to become a bit frustrated with the reformed movement. I sort of related with him coming out of the Seeker movement I could understand where he was coming from. Although it seems like his Baptist experience was much more fundamentalist than mine.
I do know that reformed people take great exception to anyone trying to define it as there are quite a few variations. I am starting to see more and more push back within certain reformed groups to the young restless and reformed movement. But frankly they seem just as arrogant as the young restless and reformed are!
@ Darlene:
I cannot unsee that.
@ Lydia:
Labels can be very touchy things. When I was Pentecostal I disliked how sweeping the conflation of charismatic with Pentecostal seemed to be for cessationists. It still bugs me and I haven’t been Assemblies of God in twenty years. I try to stick with the nomenclature people use for themselves, which is why I don’t usually use Native American, for instance.
Perhaps the most pervasive rift between the old and new Calvinists I’ve seen was summed up by Jed Paschell (sic) last year–if you want to officially be Reformed there are plenty of denominations that already self-identify as such. Don’t go assimilating the infrastructure of denominations that are not, historically speaking, Reformed.
Some of the sources who’ve contacted me over the years have suspected that Driscoll was as Reformed as he thought he needed to be to secure funding. There were reports that when Antioch found out Mark was William Wallace II it created a permanent rift between ABC and MH. The speed with which the WWII content was scrubbed, looking back on it, suggests that Mark realized how disastrous it would be if people saw what he wrote even while pretending to be a character.
Of course earlier this year I wrote at length about how based on the work of Jacques Ellul all of that William Wallace II is best interpreted as a mixture of agitation and integration propaganda. Mark and Grace trained in that sort of thing. If the other emergent didn’t rise to the same heights they didn’t have a husband/wife tagteam of media training.
And, yeah, we Reformed types ARE pretty snobby most of the time. Some of us do try to work on that a little.
@ Darlene:
that doesn’t seem like the old patristic saying one cannot call God father without regarding the church as mother
Darlene wrote:
Why can’t people see the inherent contradiction in this kind of stuff? Do they really think they can serve two masters?
@ WenatcheeTheHatchet:
We have been down this road. Here is what I know. The YRR movement. Driscoll was a poster boy. We have lots of Acts 29 church plants. He was embraced by Mohler, Piper, Mahaney. Akin and others. Now it is Mark, who?
I think the whole movement was an attempt to bring Reformed under a big tent for exactly the reason T4G moved from the convention center to the Yum center: money and control.
Debating the intricate nuances of what is really Reformed is beyond my ability or paygrade. I am no fan of Calvin, the person at all. Driscoll seems to take after him in spirit.
It seems that the circle keeps going round & round. We had some errands so I went to church with my wife to save some driving time. Big young earth creationism kick. Not optional, you must believe this to be Christian. Seems they are all like this, no matter the denomination. For one group it’s papal infallibility, for others, god speaks in a language no one understands. Christians can be nice but I genuinely can’t consider myself among them. Like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole,the religion isn’t compatible with my worldview. The irony is many Christians do. Go figure. Time to give it a rest. As Bill & Ted said “be excellent to each other ” peace out.
Jack wrote:
Agreed Jack. Go well & stay well.
@ Jack:
I’m actually confused about young earth. The bible says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth but I don’t remember a timeline on that part. So…?
Patti wrote:
Driscoll and Mahaney and for that matter Tomczak were all raised catholic, or at least raised in roman catholic families. I think this ‘shows’ in some of the doctrinal variations that become evident, at least with MD and CJ. Catholicism is more complex than just doctrine alone, and doctrine while determined by the magisterium is not as big a deal with some catholics as it is with some protestants. There is more option within catholic thinking for the catholic to be either/or just as long as he does not actually disagree with the teachings of the church.
I am sharing with you all what they taught us in RCIA but I am doing it in the words of a protestant who did not convert, so bear with me here. Personally I think that religion is indeed more than doctrine and certainly more than doctrinal conformity and I agree with what I saw as the catholic attitude toward this issue.
For example there are catholic charismatics and catholics who do not do that very much and who are uncomfortable with charismatic masses but to be in compliance with what catholics are supposed to do one has to agree with the church that being a charismatic is acceptable to the extent that the church says it is. This also goes for a lot of things, like particular saints and like private revelations and certain miracles and apparitions for instance. The catholic can say that yes they accept that the catholic church has the authority to declare what is true (or not) but that personally this or that ‘truth’ has not been a part of the particular catholic’s life in any real way.
I think this sort of thing we see in MD is compatible with that sort of approach to religion. Today a calvinist-mostly or sort of or totally, it’s all OK-and tomorrow a charismatic. Or CJ who suddenly signs up with the baptists some way and we say how did that happen for crying out loud. It may be about money, no denying that, but I am addressing the question as to how their religious thinking permits this sort of thing. Regardless of what these people sound like they may be preaching from the pulpit their lives do not look like they really believe in salvation by doctrine alone the way some protestants seem to believe it.
I think they ‘ain’t all the way protestant.’ They are more like rebels from both catholicism and protestantism. Just my take on it. And they are paid well for this.
I am more than open for any rebuttal from anybody at this point. I have no intentions of dissing either the catholic or protestant approach with these comments.
Lea wrote:
Be it 6 thousand or 6 billion years old, it is still a young earth to our omnipresent Creator. Sometimes I think people just need a bigger understanding of God.
FW Rez wrote:
Oh absolutely. There is more than one philosophical position regarding the relationship between God and time. By that I mean that actual for real professional philosophers debate this stuff. It is fascinating but no consensus has been reached, but the debate is out there.
Darlene wrote:
Okay. It’s funny. It’s also tragic. Their obsession with sex/gender is making them crazy, blind, and stupid.
WenatcheeTheHatchet wrote:
Yes, if Driscoll continues to hang out in Pentecostal ranks, it will be necessary for him to come off his macho comp horse … otherwise, women who have been set free in those ranks will knock him off it! And yes, his “woman” would have her own stage in egalitarian circles – something not afforded to her in New Calvinism.
WenatcheeTheHatchet wrote:
Agreed.
Really??? Is that all I am “A cork of testosterone bubbling in a sea of estrogen”??? What??
Darlene wrote:
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
You win! Don’t be surprised to see me borrow that sometime in a comment!
Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
I know, right?
Offensive on so many levels besides being off-base and straight up ignorant.
Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
I think it’s official. I think we can say, with a good deal of confidence, that these people have completely lost their minds.
Mara wrote:
Priapus — Roman god of the Erect Phallus.
Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
These guys should just be honest and call their next church plants the ‘he man woman haters church’. They’re not far off now.
@ Lydia:
You can certainly dislike Calvin, but the plagiarism controversy Driscoll found himself in didn’t come from the writings of non-Calvinists about his work; sort of in a similar vein to how the abuses perpetrated by John Howard Yoder didn’t come from anti-Mennonite sorts (although I can’t think of a whole lot of anti-Mennonite polemicists off the top of my head).
Darlene wrote:
Also posted on Owen Strachan’s Twitter page: “Sex is a gift of God, part of a worldview of delight” … “To the culture: your view of sex isn’t too big. It’s too small.”
Mara wrote:
On the subject of the obsession with sex/gender I was wondering what was going to be the next thing after the religious and potty wars on this subject. Polygamy? Sure, that struggle has already started with not much success so far. Pedo stuff? We have christians who want to ignore it and some religions which openly tolerate it in some countries. I am being careful with my words. And what else? Well there is GSA, genetic sex attraction, which may be increasing and may be associated with donor IVF–or not.
All this including perversion of every kind, polygamy, pedo stuff and incest have long histories in human cultures. And now, it seems, coming to sit on everybody’s door step.
Meanwhile the comps think that if some sanctified male urge to dominate can only be maximized when it comes to females then everything will be alright. For whom will it be alright? Women? Children? I want to throw up again.
Mara wrote:
Never seen so much bad theology in one place. Ex: “Anytime men don’t act like men the infrastructure of a church collapses. Jason Allen”
Built on the men the church doth stand?
FW Rez wrote:
So it’s official? The cornerstone of the church is no longer Jesus? It is testosteroned men?
Here we have the result of the gender gospel. It was only a matter of time before Jesus was replaced by the phallus symbol.
This isn’t Christianity. It’s fertility cult paganism.
Darlene wrote:
That one is disgusting and quite a put down for all involved.
okrapod wrote:
No rebuttal here. Your observation (If I understand you correctly) is the same one I’ve made over the years. Namely that modern Catholicism has way more human and intellectual freedom than fundagelical Protestantism, which is virtually bereft of it.
@ Muff Potter:
I want to also add that my statement is in no way a “diss” of fundagelicalism. It’s merely a statement of fact in a general sense, which of course will have exceptions.
Mara wrote:
Exactly!!!
I can’t believe they all take this stuff seriously. It feels like they got together and decided to send out some insanely ridiculous tweets just to laugh at how we would all react and throw us off the trail. But they are not funny! ‘Stopping a minute to pray about that the protestors make a difference. Then back to SMH over their insanity, and my laughter at their tweets is scornful I’m afraid–no respect from me, like they would care anyway.
@ WenatcheeTheHatchet:
I have no idea what this means. I live at ground zero and admit that colors my view. However, i have done business with the presbyterian seminary here (the liberals) and they were delightful. They tend to pretend Calvin does not exist and replaced him with social justice. :o)
Mara wrote:
“AVE PRIAPUS!”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priapus
Lydia wrote:
@ Muff Potter:
Yep.
Fwiw, Lutherans are not in the same category as the Reformed. Michael Spencer was never Lutheran, but he definitely was attracted to certain adpects of Catholicism, Anglicanism (in a very broad sense), Lutheranism and the Eastern Orthodox churches. Some might recall that his wife Denise converted to Catholicism in the early 00s. which gave him a chance to learn much more (at close range) about liturgical churches. But he very clearly said thst he couldn’t make that step. However, he hodted blog vonvos by “the Liturgical Gangstas” (including Orthodox priest Fr. Ernesto Obregon and a gent who is a Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod pastor) during the last few years of his life. These periodic posts were cordial and illuminating.
Otoh, Michael stuckmto Driscoll’s views on certain things for the remsinder of his life (he freely deleted anti-Driscoll comments), and had a conflicted view of gitls, women and some cultural changes (see the archives over there for his truly awful “Girls Trading Up,” for example). I liked him very much, and am glad that the iMonk blog has kept on in the years since he passed.
@ numo:
Graphs 2 and 3 above are meant to address a bunch of other commenters, not Muff. I skimmed parts of this thread, but have not gone back over it and picked out specific comments to respond to, mainly due to time constraints.
Apologies for any confusion.
js wrote:
I can’t help you, J’s. I don’t answer silly framed questions from guys like you who are invested in movements. (It’s OK, I can tell from past comments here)
I have written plenty in this thread on my interpretation of his post and included thoughts on his site partner, Trueman who declared Mahaney fit for ministry.
It is OK if you disagree with my position. Others here have as well. I just hope they don’t trust Pruitt too much.
js wrote:
She did not misrepresent him, she is giving her interpretation of his words. (I think his articles are a mixed bag personally, some good some bad)
He says ‘primarily’ but he talks more about his buddies and his theology than the lord. Certainly more than the victims. That is worth pointing out.
@ okrapod:
About the “boys for love” thing in Afghanistan – that’s Pashtun tribal culture, not anything religious. Truly. They were noted for this back when the British were in India, trying to conquer Afghanistan.
As for other instances, i think a lot of it (not all, but a lot) is related to gender segregstion once kids hit puberty. If you can only socialize with people of the same gender (apart from family members), then odds are that for dome folks, homosocial will become homosexual as well. Which might not, in many cases, be do much about preference as availability.
By no means am i attempting to excuse pedophilia. Most non-Pashtun groupd in Afghanistan do *not* accept or practice it. (Child marriages are a whole ‘nother topic, and beyond the scope of this reply. That they *aren’t* beyond the svope of our society is evident in the life story of, say, country singer Loretta Lynn…)
@ numo:
I have family who were there over the course of 4 years setting up clinics for a teaching hospital. They would totally disagree with you concerning folk Islam and pedophilia. It is a huge problem that is ingrained in the culture.
Lea wrote:
Primary means “first and foremost” and he said it was primarily about Christ, but Lydia doesn’t mention this in her assessment, only his attempt to support “his heroes.” So she is either misrepresenting him or he is lying. It has nothing to do with interpretation. She either believes he is lying about his primary intent or she has misrepresented his words. She should own one view or the other.
@ Lydia:
I did say it was cultural. Pashtun practices have spread, due to the fact that the Taliban began as a Pashtun group.
But i think there’s not much sense in debating this, really. We both know it’s there, and all too real.
js wrote:
Please tell me you’re old enough to realize sometimes people say one thing but they actually mean another?
also, what he actually said was ‘Primarily, however, this appeal is made on the basis of my love for Christ, his church, and the Reformed faith’. So, how much of his ‘primarily’ is truly about Christ, versus how much about ‘the REFORMED faith'(ie theology/neo-cal buddies)? We are left to ponder.
In his update he lists Christ, the church, and three or four other non Christ things (like complementarianism!).
@ Lea:
Also, he could ‘in theory’ THINK he really cares about one thing, while in actuality being blind to the fact that he cares most about another. It isn’t always that one might think someone is ‘lying’.
js wrote:
No, that is not what Pruit said.
Lea wrote:
But what is always listed first in every case is Christ. Yet Lydia left that out. Why?
Lydia wrote:
You should quote someone accurately even when you disagree with them.
@ numo:
It’s not just Afghanistan. This is a problem in patriarchal Islamic cultures that never Westernized.
@ Lydia:
It didn’t seem that opaque a point at the time I wrote it, but I can try again. If people aren’t steeped in the published literature of the Reformed side of things could they spot cribbed material? Yoder’s wrong-doings could only be brought to light by people who knew what he was up to by dint of being inside that tradition and community. Driscoll was never going to get trouble from anti-Calvinists. It was an intra-Reformed critique that highlighted the problems in Driscoll’s work, and it took insiders to leak the details about Result Source.
Justin Dean’s been saying “the media” made life bad for Mars Hill, but Mark Driscoll’s reputation withered under sustained criticism from within the Reformed scene. Lots of jerks of every stripe go along just fine if they don’t alienate their support base. Driscoll alienated his support base, which is why even though plenty of other popular Christian authors rigged the NYT best seller list only his reputation seemed to suffer for it. The Parrotts and David Jeremiah seem to be doing okay, for instance.
Bridget wrote:
This is what he said.
at all costs.
“9. I repeat my motive in all of this: The reputation of our Lord, his church, the Doctrines of Grace, complementarianism, and biblical church discipline are taking a beating over this scandal. The damage being done is significant.”
His motivation is not the victims — who, BTW, are the church.
@ js:
js wrote:
You cut off everything that came after Christ. This is a silly game you’re playing. Lydia is reading between the lines and doesn’t like what she sees. There is nothing nefarious there..
Lydia wrote:
You are invested in a movement of opposition and you make it clear by your incomplete quoting of Pruitt and by your refusal to acknowledge said incompleteness when questioned.
@ Lydia:
Again, I said that in my previous, and didn’t specify religion, because it isn’t solely applicable to *some* (and only some) Muslim countries.
We really don’t have anything to argue about, I’m thinking.
Pax,
numo
Lea wrote:
It is not silly to try to represent accurately what somebody actually said was his highest priority. If you think he is lying, say so. But don’t ignore what he actually said.
Here’s the full quote and I stand by the fact that Pruitt says his top priority in opposing Mahaney is Christ and his gospel.
“My appeal to them in part is driven by my deep desire that these men for whom I feel a great deal of gratitude not be tarnished by another man’s scandal. Primarily, however, this appeal is made on the basis of my love for Christ, his church, and the Reformed faith. Like it or not it is our Lord’s reputation that is taking a beating because of this scandal. It is also the Doctrines of Grace which many of us hold dear that are being mocked because of this. Have we already forgotten how Mark Driscoll’s numerous scandals did great damage to complementarianism and Calvinism (though Driscoll was never a Calvinist)? Certainly the reputation of Jesus and his gospel are of far greater worth than our conferences, paychecks, platforms, projects, and alliances.”
js wrote:
I believe Christ is not pleased that the hero’s Pruitt wants to protect have promoted and enabled a child molester protector Shepherding cult leader –for years.
There. I mention it.
Pruitt and I have very different understandings of what is important to our Lord.
@ js:
You’ve done the same thing. Maybe your motivation is the same as Lydia’s? I haven’t a clue about anyone’s motivation, myself.
@ numo:
It is the whole agenda to always seek to put a smiley face on Islam which is a horror for women and children. Okrapod never mentioned Afghanistan. She was very generic.
js wrote:
Saying that things like ‘reformed faith’, ‘complementarianism’, ‘church discipline’ are also in his list of key important things IS quoting accurately and Lydia is reading his words and looking at his heart. It is her opinion.
I don’t know why you’re so invested in this guy, but I think we’re done here.
@ Lydia:
Look, I quit. It is just not possible, imo, for you and I to have a rational, grownup discussion on these issues. I’m sorry that’s the case, but I am also not going to continue with it.
Bridget wrote:
There is no mention of his heroes there. So are you acknowledging that Lydia misrepresented Pruitt by saying he is just concerned about the reputations of his heroes?
BTW, I was not referring to Pruitt’s response to his original post but to his original post.
As to his concern for the victims, he acknowledged in the original post the following . . .
“However, the revelations of sexual abuse of children and the cover up of those crimes within SGM churches forced me to reconsider my opinion of “the critics.” It is not my purpose to rehash what has already entered the public record. Suffice it to say, I have found much of the evidence quite compelling that certain leaders within SGM knew about and sought to cover-up the sexual abuse of children. If you are interested you can read more about the horrific situation HERE, HERE, and HERE.”
Later, he says, “The scandal is still growing. Lawsuits are in the offing. The accusations, far from being exposed as lies, seem to have taken on greater credibility.”
Maybe you could have written it better than he did, or expressed more compassion for the victims, but I don’t think he did that bad of a job expressing himself.
Bridget wrote:
What same thing?
js wrote:
I believe she was talking about selective quoting, at least that’s what I was thinking. He doesn’t say primarily about Christ, he says primarily about Christ PLUS…all these other things. And then he talks a whole lot more about those other things. So.
Lea wrote:
If he says primarily plus, he still means by primarily, “first and foremost, the main thing.” Of course there may be other issues which come into play in any situation but he said what he believed was primary. We can either believe him or not but we should represent his words accurately.
Evidently, CJ is preaching now.
No concern for SNAP or abuse victims.
js wrote:
But unless you are actually him in disguise, that is merely your interpretation. Which may very well be incorrect.
Remnant, they do not care about victims. They care more about their buddies and their money. Sad.
js wrote:
He named THREE things he thought were primary, not one.
I can’t stand it. The tweets of his sermon are sickening.
Lea wrote:
But whether he is saying three things or one none of them were his “heroes.”
Lea wrote:
It is not an interpretation. Words mean things. Primary has a context-based meaning and it is not that complicated.
js wrote:
This is what I mean by silly.
If I say I ‘primarily’ enjoy swimming, boating and lounging, and then proceed to spend three paragraphs talking about lounging, which is my favorite? Which is most important?
@ Haitch:
Thanks, Haitch, you too.
FW Rez wrote:
Well,it comes down to what is the truth. I’m not going to debate young earth creationism because for a lot of folks it’s an entrenched position, so I’d be wasting pixels. But in keeping with the “Christian trends” spirit, there’s a reactionary fundamentalist shift that is manifesting even in non Calvin churches. A “bigger understanding” for many has become an “all or nothing” Bible. It’s dangerous thinking & that’s what’s dealt me out.
Lea wrote:
But he didn’t do that. He didn’t spend much time at all taking about his heroes. He spent time talking to them because he was addressing them. He spoke of Jesus and the gospel as primary both toward the beginning and at the end of the final paragraph.
Jack wrote:
And then there are rogue anomaly free-thinkers (like myself) who are all over the map with beliefs and non-beliefs. I am bane to both liberals and conservatives with some of my views regarding faith.
js wrote:
I can’t speak for Lydia, but my own opinion is that Pruitt is shading the truth. He says that the reputation of Jesus is first on his list of priorities. But also on that list is a bunch of non-essential stuff, issues that are (at best) secondary. And I don’t see how the defence of Doctrines of Grace, gender comp, or church discipline “come into play” here at all. Why he would even mention them in the face of the sexual abuse, and its cover-up, is a mystery to me.
It reminds me very much of the Pied Piper, and his moaning that people might “walk away from Jesus, or Reformed theology, or complementarianism”, as though it’s some kind of newfangled trinity. This, after Driscoll bragged about a “pile of bodies behind the Mars Hill bus”. I think this kind of talk shows what’s really important to men like Piper and Pruitt.
I grant that Pruitt (unlike the Pied One) took the time to mention the victims of these so-called “leaders”, and their families. However, it bothers me that the defence of gender comp or any other non-essential should enter his mind at all. And in this case, I think even the reputation of Jesus should take a backseat to compassion for victims and prevention of abuses in the future.
Perhaps not. But his attitude towards them is a bit too conciliatory for my taste. And he spent far too much time defending the secondary issues that Dever, Mohler and the like keep pushing. And selling.
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
That’s a fair view. You didn’t ignore what he actually said but did point out what you saw as inconsistencies or points of overemphasis. We can disagree but at least we are comparing apples to apples.
@ js:
Nobody has ignored what he actually said.
Tweet by Owen Strachen is unbelievable.
@ Bridget:
The other quote about “sanctified testosterone” would require plenty stretching of proof texting to be biblically and doctrinally correct. In other words where in the Bible is all of this? Men are corks swimming in a sea of estrogen ? Don’t recall this anywhere.
Mark wrote:
Which one? There’s quite a few triggering ones. And besides the made up word ‘complementarian’, spotted the use of the word ‘winsome’, gag.
I’ll put this out there – I can’t say which disturbs me most – the content pouring out of the mouths of these guys, or the size of the audience getting their ears tickled.
Haitch wrote:
I am pretty conservative. I think some of these tweets border on the obscene. I tend to avoid people who revel in how much they can cuss because they consider it funny. It’s like a contest for them. What’s the difference in these Owen Strachen tweets and cussing contests?
@ Haitch:
Could it all be a contest that starts with a “p?”
Muff Potter wrote:
Double plus good,citizen! Seriously, though. That’s the way it should be. All the best.
Darlene wrote:
I think this tweet if funny, in my own weird way. Maybe those manly corks will either wash ashore, or get estrogen-logged and sink to the bottom of the sea. Either way, corks rot while the sea waves still roll!
Nancy2 wrote:
Also something that starts with an “s” floats. And this is a summation of these tweets. Sorry for a cussing.
Remnant wrote:
Only for how HUMBLE and PERSECUTED he is?
“His universe has room only for Himself.”
— Mercedes Lackey, describing the main villain in one of her fantasy novels
Lydia wrote:
Log ago (probably while reading Frank Yerby’s novel Goat Song for the first time), I realized that Extreme Patriarchal cultures will have a pull in the direction of male homosexuality. Since women are nothing more than domestic animals, how else can you have sex with another PERSON? As one such culture put it (with an added pedophilia angle) “Women for Breeding Stock, Men for Love, Boys for Pleasure”.
Yet in male-on-male, someone has to be the Penetrated — the WOMAN. So there will also be a revulsion, at least for the Penetrated on the bottom. And so Animal Dominance Display comes into play. (And don’t adults Dominate juveniles?)
Add a strong homosexuality taboo (like Islam’s Scriptures) and you will ALWAYS have a culture torn by pulls in both directions. Their Patriarchy pulls them in the direction of male homosexuality and their holy book pulls them away. (And people being people — especially dominant Alpha Males — there will be a LOT of workarounds springing up.)
Mark wrote:
Oh, but the preacher-boys-in-training love it when Strachan talks like this at his new job at SBC’s Midwestern Seminary! They want to be just like him when they grow up … preacher boys that never become men of God (there’s a vast difference).
Haitch wrote:
Yes, that is the alarming thing … 10,000 young reformers at the conference this week soaking in aberration, plus tens of thousands more waiting for their chance at a pulpit! This thing has come in like a flood … reckon when the Lord will raise up a standard against it?! Where are the young men who have been called into ministry, but not sold out to New Calvinism?! Where are the young Gospel preachers who have their spiritual heads screwed on straight that preach with a passion to take the message of the Cross of Christ to ALL people? I know they are out there, but Lord I wish you would plant some in my area so that I would have hope.
Max wrote:
I think this church planting ‘system’ thing is a big part of the problem. How did churches used to start…church splits? Someone popping into town and seeing a need? I don’t know.
But now, it’s very systematic. It’s very controlled. It’s very…businesslike. And all of this ultimately seems like a business, designed to get money, rather than a mission. Do these people even talk about missions? It’s is deeply weird to me that you would start a church and put ‘planting churches’ in your mission statement, especially in the US where there are plenty of churches to chose from. It feels lacking to me.
Lea wrote:
New Calvinism’s church planting frenzy is more about planting reformed theology, than planting churches. SBC’s North American Mission Board has an aggressive strategy to plant 1,000 new churches per year; they will largely be led by young, restless and reformed pastors fresh out of seminary who are lining up for the jobs.
Max wrote:
I know you think SBC members and churches are apathetic. I am not from the South and East but closer to the Texas orbit. I suspect there is a little less apathy in my part of country. Where I live we are a bit less civil and have a reputation for being feisty and more independent. Neo Calvinism hasn’t hit us as hard as East. Maybe state conventions in my area of country (Texas and Oklahoma) and local associations will take more responsibility for missionary activity — I hope especially when baptist leaders see what is happening to the Mother ship?
Darlene wrote:
Twitter. It doesn’t make people fools; it just alerts the rest of us so we can stay away!
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Why do you think they call them Twits?
Max wrote:
“TOMORROW BELONGS TO ME…”
— Cabaret
Remnant wrote:
“It’s a Rat Writ, writ for a rat.”
— Rooster Cogburn, True Grit (1969 film)
And these are Twit Tweets, tweeted by a twit.
Jay wrote:
My dear man. I grew up eating bear meat that my grandfather got by killing the bears that came around his door. It was both good riddance and good eating.
I hold wolves (who cheerfully devour the lambs in Christ’s fold, having gained access as thieves & robbers) in the same class: Bad in the sheepfold, good on the table. (And dandy for fur coats as well). Mahaney & Co are wolves.
PS:(I never ate a wolf — not that I know of– but I DO have two quite ravenous cats who would be delighted……..)
Lydia wrote:
We believe in original sin, yes. (At least officially). The Wesley brothers seem to have believed in total depravity as well, but we do not (necessarily) agree with the Wesley brothers.
I, for example, believe that while original sin is real, that humans are not totally depraved as a result. We are deeply, deeply wounded, but we are NOT dead as a result of our wounding. (In this , we look to the doctrine of Prevenient Grace, which I will leave for you & others to google. Which, by the bye, John Wesley also believed in…..leaving him a bit on the fence, as it were).
JeffT wrote:
It IS cosmic child abuse! What an apropos description, in but a few words! Thank you for quoting it!!
Bill M wrote:
Amen.
Darlene wrote:
Calling the Deebs: We need a projectile-vomiting smiley here. Its all I can think of when I read the things some of these guys babble.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Oh, gracious, this lot have about forty-seven gods. (Each other).
FW Rez wrote:
Bless you! That is the best post yet, on this subject.