Porcupine Mtns.
“Sometimes, I feel discriminated against, but it does not make me angry. It merely astonishes me. How can any deny themselves the pleasure of my company? It’s beyond me.”―
I have been mulling over the problem of implementing church discipline when it comes to employees of various church institutions. I especially want to focus on pastors, elders, and seminary professors, those in conservative, Reformed denominations like the SBC, PCA, or nondenominational churches, which function like de facto Calvinist organizations.Let’s look at two examples.
Eric McKiddie: formerly of Chaple Hill Bible Church.
I wrote Chapel Hill Bible Church: Pastor Eric McKiddie Is Gone, and Pastor Jay Thomas Is Under Fire. Eric McKiddie was a BFF of Pastor Jay Thomas. Thomas had some experience working with him in Illinois and quickly brought him to work at CHBC. It did not go well. There were a number of complaints by employees and members. The church was told that McKiddie resigned. Thomas brought confusion to this situation. Did McKiddie resign, or was he fired? He resigned, but issues such as employee abuse were discussed after he left. Some at CHBC were reportedly told he returned to seminary for further education.
Living in the light: Abuse and Pastor Eric McKiddie
I listened in shock as an elder and Pastor Thomas claimed that there was not any sexual or physical abuse. Did I misunderstand that the possibility of emotional abuse or a hostile work environment might not be seen as abuse by the church leaders? I have linked to a post on this matter at the end of my article. Also, why were they discussing abuse when the church was told that McKiddie resigned, ostensibly to pursue further education? Why was the church being told to be concerned for McKiddie’s wife and children during this time if he was simply pursuing education? Why was the church told to avoid *slander?* Why was the church being told to not discuss this with folks outside the church? Something wasn’t right.Did Eric ever appear to threaten people? For example, Eric reportedly told a person who quit their job due to a hostile work environment, “If you speak well of us then we will speak well of you.” That seems rather hostile to me. If people reported what they believed to be an impossible work environment, were they told that it wasn’t so bad? Were they told to forgive and move on? Were they not believed? Apparently, there were reports of difficult behavior. Why was this seemingly being covered up?
Within short order, McKiddie became the Director of Operations at Hilton Head Presbyterian Church.
Questions
- If there was indeed some abuse involved, why didn’t he undergo church discipline, a subject with which Jay Thomas and elders are well acquainted?
- Why wasn’t his abusive nature conveyed to his next church employer? Indeed, they wouldn’t recommend him for such a position, right?
Bruce Ashford: formerly Provost and professor at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, an elder at The Summit Church, and a long-time BFF of JD Greear.
Simon and Garfunkle’s song The Sounds of Silence comes to mind when Bruce Ashford’s name comes up. Although now the words of the prophets are written on blogs as well… We wrote Where’s Bruce Ashford? Did They Give Him a Cake? Here are more posts we have written on this curious matter.
Ashford suddenly resigned from his position at SEBTS and disappeared. He also similarly vanished from The Summit. All sorts of stories were told, including that his wife was “crazy” and he needed to care for the children. That story did not pan out, and we had a concern that she was a potential outcry victim of domestic violence. Then, there was an infamous LYFT episode.
Danny Akin refused to answer Todd’s question about Ashford’s resignation, telling him to “Ask him (Ashford.)” Todd did communicate with him but never got any answers. As far as we know, he no longer drives for LYFT and does not appear to be in the greater Raleigh/Wake Forest area,
Questions
- Why wouldn’t Danny Akin answer Todd as to what happened with Ashford?
- Why was no apparent announcement of Ashford’s disappearance from JD Greear’s church?
- If Grrear did not make a general announcement regarding Ashford, does this mean that elders are compensated for their work and fall under US Employment laws? If not, was he treated differently due to his friendship with Greear?
Are Employment laws in the US preventing churches from disciplining pastors?
In both of the discussions regarding Ashford and McKiddie, US employment laws came up time and time again. Let me sum it up. Given written laws and the availability of employment lawyers, churches and seminaries may not be able to discipline an employee. Here is a potential scenario: wholly made up.
Pastor Smith is psychologically and spritually abusive. Employees and church members have submitted complaints.He was fired. He then hired a well known employment rights attorney and claims he will sue the church if they say he is fired. He makes up an excuse “Tell the church members that I am taking some time off for a vacation and then plan to pursue higher education. He is given a severance and a going away party. Church members and victims of his abuse are left confused. Church leaders will not comment on the situation.
Should church members be disciplined if leaders/professors cannot (or will not) be disciplined?
This is a tricky question. Such situations can create two classes of Christians in the church: those who can and those who can’t be disciplined. I would like to have a discussion about this issue. Also, if anyone knows where Ashford is, please let us know.
I note that religious organizations have a lot more leeway than normal businesses in firing employees especially those in ‘ministering’ positions because otherwise would involve courts dealing with internal church matters (see how fast some women get fired for being pregnant outside of marriage or simply being female in a job the new boss feels should only be held by men [God said so}). Admittedly some higher ups may have gotten contracts that give them more protection.
Apparently, God’s standards (as in our Heavenly Father’s standards) have a far lower ethical threshold than secular practices. Rule of God – which should be love God & love your neighbor as self – is far lower than Rule of Law?
Or is it that these are NOT God’s standards (our Heavenly Father’s standards) at all.
These are just the standards and practices of a bunch of men that in the end, serve themselves, elevate each other. Very low ethics in the name of their “god”. Jesus called out whom they serve, in John 8.44. They don’t serve our Heavenly Father; they serve the other guy, the fallen angel, the devil.
“conservative, Reformed denominations like the SBC, PCA, or nondenominational churches, which function like de facto Calvinist organizations”
Are these the same orgs and institutions that fired all of their women academics? And even before fired, the men in the audience turned their backs to their women professors? They put in policies that silence or essentially duct tape women?
Regarding “Love God & Love your neighbor as yourself”, apparently women are not one’s neighbor, theologically, that is. In their version of the Kingdom of God, men don’t love women as themselves. Men dominate, then subjugate and silence women.
“In this way, the children of God and the children of the Devil are made plain; no one who fails to act in righteousness belongs to God, nor anyone who does not love his brother/sister.” from 1 John 3
By their fruits, they demonstrate to whom they belong, to whom they serve.
Regarding a man who violates minors, whom does he serve? And he is on record as the man who orchestrated the Grand Org’s Conservative Resurgence? So, who, in Heaven or on Earth, orchestrated the Conservative Resurgence? The God of Light or the Prince of Darkness? Whom does this Grand Org & all its institutions serve?
One famous man, notably, left the org at that point, to separate himself from the Prince of Darkness’s Org. Jimmy Carter figured it out.
Love God all in, and love your neighbor as yourself. That includes women as neighbors; so, men love and respect women as much as they love and respect themselves.
Not all theology and conservatism and resurgences hold up, obviously.
And since 2000, in 24 years, none of the big names wanted to address this – in publishing, from pulpits, from platforms.
Just one lone political guy standout outlier.
Wow, all the scapegoating from pulpits about our society’s downfalls, when the reality may be that the downfall lies smack dab in the pulpits.
And we wonder why Scripture says that when judgment begins to flow through a nation, it will begin first at the House of God?!
From the OP:
[Begin excerpt]
Are employment laws in the US preventing churches from disciplining pastors?
In both of the discussions regarding Ashford and McKiddie, US employment laws came up time and time again. Let me sum it up. Given written laws and the availability of employment lawyers, churches and seminaries may not be able to discipline an employee. Here is a potential scenario: wholly made up.
[End excerpt]
Just an idea….I don’t know U.S. law, and things are likely to vary from state to state and church to church….and I don’t know how churches handle things….
Is it possible that the chances of a lawsuit being filed — or the chances of a lawsuit being won — could they be greatly diminished (or eliminated) if the person in leadership (the pastor, etc.) was fired legally first, rather than using church discipline first?
Fire using the worldly law — due to abuse of some kind, etc. — and then use church discipline based on the results of the legal firing. At the moment, are they doing church discipline first, using the Bible as grounds?
I don’t know if what I’m writing makes sense….the way I think of it is doing the civil and / or criminal law first, and then using the results to do the church discipline. The short form might be kinda-sorta stated as “legal law before church law”, rather than “church law before legal law”. I know it might go against many people’s ideas of using the Bible, but….
That is what I always thought. I am wondering if it is changing. Or are church leaders lying purposefully and using employment laws as an excuse?
One word: PASTOR.
RANK HATH ITS PRIVILEGES, LOWBORN!
Again, PASTOR Ashford.
Highborn Clergy does not rat out Highborn Clergy to Lowborn Laity.
“TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!”
Other than his own Sexual APPETITES?
I have to thank pulp author Seabury Quinn for my using the word “Appetites” instead of “Proclivities”. specifically his 1936 Jules De Grandin (occult detective) mystery, “A Rival from the Grave”.
So much more descriptive.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
P.S. Heading off the Christian reaction here:
“Occult Detective” is a mystery/horror fiction genre where the supernatural/paranormal/fantasy/horror elements mix with the detective/mystery elements. And the supernatural/horror elements are treated as real; no Scooby-Doo Endings here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occult_detective_fiction
New Calvinists (of which Ashford was a darling) are infamous for protecting their own until the potato becomes too hot to handle. Then it becomes “Ashford who?” … “Driscoll who?” … “MacDonald who?” … “Mahaney who?” … and hopefully someday “Piper who?!” and “Mohler who?!”
Here are some thoughts from a former ordained PCA minister. The purpose of church discipline was always presented as being needful when a person refuses to repent for sinful behavior. I asked the question of why some unrepentant sins lead to church discipline and some did not and they closest to a specific answer I ever got was that discipline was reserved for gross public unrepentant sin. The lack of clarity regarding what sins do and don’t fall into the church discipline category always troubled me, especially when it seemed to often be applied to women who finally decided to leave their abusive husbands and then were disciplined for not having “biblical grounds” to divorce them. Suddenly, after years of doing nothing to get involved in the abusive marriages, these churches would take an active role in disciplining the victim. Nauseating.
So, if these men have “repented”, there would be no church discipline necessary. Of course, much could be written about what TRUE repentance is and should look like, but I’ll take a pass on this one! IMHO, I rarely see examples of TRUE repentance coming from public Christian celebrities, local church leaders, or even from the rest of us joe-schmoes in the pews.
Once again, I hold up the wonderful, but very uncommon example of the repentance of John Profumo as light shinning in the darkness.
A sermon that needs to be preached from the American pulpit … if you could find enough preachers themselves how have ‘truly’ repented.
“who” have ‘truly’ repented
Bruce Ashford can be found here.
https://www.theashfordagency.com/
His office address is a P.O. Box in Raleigh.
And this is from his CV at The Kirby Laing Centre, UK.
“Teaching & Administrative Experience
• Independent writer and speaker. Lecturer, Speaker, Book writer, columnist,
speechwriter, political consultant. Raleigh, NC.
• Professor of Theology & Culture, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary,
2015-October 2020.
• Provost / Dean of the Faculty, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary,
November 2012 – Summer 2020
• Associate Professor of Theology & Culture, Southeastern Baptist Theological
Seminary, 2010-2015.
• Dean, The College at Southeastern, 2009-2012
• Director, The Lewis A. Drummond Center for Great Commission Studies,
Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, 2005-2008.
• Associate Professor of Philosophy and Intercultural Studies, Southeastern Baptist
Theological Seminary, 2007-2010.
• Assistant Professor of Philosophy and Intercultural Studies, Southeastern Baptist
Theological Seminary, 2005-07.
• Assistant Professor of Philosophy and History of Ideas, The College at
Southeastern, 2003-04. Taught core classes in the History of Ideas major.
Specialized in Ancient and Medieval Philosophy and Literature.
• Adjunct Professor of Philosophy and History of Ideas, The College at
Southeastern, 2001-03. Taught core classes in the History of Ideas major.
• Adjunct Professor, Kazan State University (Russia) campuses, 1998-2000.“
Immediate next step:
Reach out to each of those “A Few of Our Happy Clients” and ask if they want to be listed given the accusations and silence from Bruce Ashford.
https://www.theashfordagency.com/
Just scroll down.
I wonder.
church discipline… so much nonsense.
to add to so much more nonsense.
the homogeneous full frontal assault of men’s faces in church leadership for generations upon generations is a direct correlation, as i see it.
The website does not appear updated. The last date I can find is from September 2023.
It’s interesting that Grimke Seminary is listed as a client. Grimke is an A29 outfit that seems to exist only to separate eager young church planters from their donors money, and to offer alternative streams of income for the “faculty”.
… and the beat goes on
The lack of clarity…..
…..applied to women who finally decided to leave their abusive husbands and then were disciplined for not having “biblical grounds” to divorce them. Suddenly, after years of doing nothing to get involved in the abusive marriages, these churches would take an active role in disciplining the victim. Nauseating.
Tom Rubino,
Paige Patterson (SBC) was quite clear about that: If a man beats his wife, he might just come to church; and, if a wife files for divorce, the judge may never become a Christian.
I get the strong feeling that a large portion of evangelical men think that way, and feel compelled to protect the men from embarrassing publicity.
I’m not saying that McKiddie and/or Ashford abused their spouses, but whatever they did …. their clan is keeping quite about it and protecting them.
https://www.christianpost.com/news/86-year-old-sc-pastor-out-on-bond-after-child-abuse-charges.html?utm_source=Daily&utm_campaign=Daily&utm_medium=newsletter
predestined to protect … predestined to be protected
“Should church members be disciplined if leaders/professors cannot (or will not) be disciplined?”
My short answer: No, they should not be exposed to discipline that their leaders are in some fashion immune to. However, there are a couple of factors that I suspect play very heavily into the issue, perhaps lead to a circling of the wagons when church leaders are confronted concerning (their) serious sin, and it mostly has to do not with what repentance looks like but with what restoration looks like. There are different ongoing loss/effects of the discipline, even despite repentance.
For example, say a member who is a successful store owner seriously sins in a way that results in formal church discipline. After they (hopefully) repent they are welcomed back into fellowship with the church with open arms, a la 1 Cor 5, 2 Cor 2. They haven’t lost their career/job, are still a successful store owner, has not had to relocate, pull his kids out of school, find a new career, etc.
Now, take the serious, discipline-worthy sin and apply it to the pastor. His/her disciplinary process, often even in the face of repentance, will likely result in loss of job, career, income, etc., and it is also likely that the pastor will have to move for employment elsewhere, even if not in any kind of ministry, and even having repented. This reality likely colors the issue regarding different experiences between members and pastors.
I’m not sure what the answer is, or how the Lord would solve the challenge, but the disparate effects of church disipline between members and pastors is something to acknowledge, imo. And when the church imposed costs of sin, even after genuine repentance, are likely to be higher and harsher for one person than another, it makes sense that the one paying a higher cost will be more tempted to hide or deny their sins. We are so desperately needy for the Spirit of the Lord to be welcomed into His church, from pulpit to pew!
senecagriggs,
They don’t age out of their predatory criminality.
Another corollary of a Gospel of Personal Salvation and ONLY Personal Salvation.
Anything to get the man down the aisle and saying the words.
No matter how hard it is on the woman.
i.e. a Con Game.
And everybody shouted AMEN! (or should have)
The American church is in desperate need to experience 2 Chronicles 7:14. You cannot activate the “Then Will I” of God “If My People” don’t do their part.
Now, take the serious, discipline-worthy sin and apply it to the pastor. His/her disciplinary process, often even in the face of repentance, will likely result in loss of job, career, income, etc., and it is also likely that the pastor will have to move for employment elsewhere, even if not in any kind of ministry, and even having repented. This reality likely colors the issue regarding different experiences between members and pastors.
Ken Garrett,
It should not “color the issue”.
It does not for me.
When someone strives for and gains the position of a church pastor, that person knows what “a serious, discipline-worthy sin” is, and should expect to pay the price if and when they commit such a sin.
These boyz Dee writes about will gleefully dish out the discipline, as long as the deserving culprit is not one of their own, or the person they see when they look in a mirror!
Any form of abuse and many forms of non-abusive but inappropriate behavior will lead to loss job and career in other professions as well – think of teachers or doctors or psychologists.
Ken Garrett,
teachers, doctors, and attorneys lose the right to practice should they choose to do or not do certain things. why should pastors be coddled & treated like a special class of human being with impunity?
i truly don’t understand why pastors should be shielded from the consequences of their actions. ridiculous. seems quite immoral to me.
but then i observe many uneven scales in christianity that many christians seem totally numb to and unbothered by.
there isn’t a combination of words that expresses the depth of my disappointment accurately enough.
I did not suggest that pastors should be coddled or treated any differently. I’m simply pointing out that they are, in fact, treated differently, than their fellow members of the organization. And, to compare the pastors to doctors, lawyers, teachers, other professionals, etc, is not quite accurate, because the standards that pastors and all Christians are judged by are certainly different, biblical, than the standards of those other professions. Those professions have their standards, and they’re moral, and hopefully good. But other than sharing the same, reasonable, expectations for their employment, those professions have different standards then those of a Christian leader or pastor, whose standards are supposedly based on the bible. For instance, doctors and lawyers are generally not disciplined out of their careers for being rude, arrogant, proud, or domineering… As long as they get their job done. However, those things are rightfully issues of great concern for a Christian leader, and a failure to repent of them could very well lead to that leader losing his or her position. My point is, the same character flaws that do not result in unemployment or loss of career to the one group, do in fact lead to those things in the other group. I believe that appreciating those distinctions might open the door to developing healthier pastors who will live transparently before their churches.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
In the 70s and 80s, I had some paperback collections of Jules de Grandin stories. They were used when I got them, so I don’t know when they were published. Some publisher bought up a lot of old pulp sf/occult stories and is republishing them. I checked a hardback out of the library in recent years.
According to 1 Cor. 5, everyone at church needs to do their part, and disfellowship (not even sit down to dinner with) individuals that evidence any of six behaviors. Criminally violating minors is one of those behaviors.
Therefore, every Christian associating with church leaders that violate minors should be, instead, running away the other direction, fast. Including and especially other leaders running the org.
The org’s meeting yearly for their big shindig is inconsistent with 1 Cor. 5 as these characters not only participate but lead. The 2K Resurgence laid it on thick as anti-women with their duct tape silencing “theology” but left out 1 Cor. 5.
From top to bottom, such orgs are inconsistent with NT practice.
It appears such orgs are all about power, prestige, and profit (money), even in the face of gross perversion and vice. Example: They keep the judge in place as a leader while he violates minors. They might as well be sacrificing their children to idols, OT style. Prolife? Pro-children? Not at all.
This org is so way off the mark, there really is no point in protesting or platforming with them or among them. From top to bottom and at their core they sold out to and embraced the Evil One a long time ago. Christa Brown’s experience is just one example that goes way back.
The answer, according to 1 Cor. 5, is for each Christian to responsibly do their part by disfellowshipping. God neither needs nor takes part in the 1 Cor. 5 malignant behaviors that poison any community. The answer is to go where God is, because that is church.
“This is how they will know you are my disciples, is that you love one another.” John 13.
“Everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love.” 1 John
Violating children is not love but hate and destruction for the perversions of a person of power who lives his life literally between his legs, in the most grotesque and inhumane way possible. Sicko, with a title and a free pass for criminality in churches – except God is not found there.
A site I read is Religion Clause which documents cases involving religion including use of Ministerial Exception https://religionclause.blogspot.com/search/label/Ministerial%20exception
My guess is that not wanting negative publicity is the key reason even if it would be an easy win in the court system.
Merely a thought to add on, simply because it’s not yet been mentioned, and not as criticism to any TWW commenters, as most — if not all — are familiar with the topic….and no offence to anyone intended.
The victim (survivor) might also lose their job, career, income, etc…they might no longer be able to work as a result of any damage done, including PTSD or Complex PTSD.
That is so true, agreed! When there is criminal abuse… Of anyone, I believe the first step is to leave church, warn fellow members of the abuse, and immediately call the police.
Oh God is there alright, and I think he’s pissed off.
Ken Garrett,
“for being rude, arrogant, proud, or domineering… However, those things are rightfully issues of great concern for a Christian leader, and a failure to repent of them could very well lead to that leader losing his or her position. My point is, the same character flaws that do not result in unemployment or loss of career to the one group, do in fact lead to those things in the other group.”
++++++++++++++
i think of managers of people. any manager who acts like this will not last long. people skills are part of the job. they are not a good fit.
a pastor’s product is people, so to speak. people skills are part of the job. pastors who act this way are not a good fit. they don’t belong in that position.
no need to spiritualize it.
the concept of ‘pastor’ has taken a trippy trip into crazyland.
as i see it, the culprits are exploiting faith for money and power. monetizing ministry and equating pastor with CEO, and christian culture evolving into a cult of biblicism.
exploiting the act of caring about people and for people by turning it into a career path for men, creating jobs for men by turning just about any activity into a “Pastor Of ___”, discriminating against women with superior skills and experience and education,…
exploiting people’s fears, inciting neuroses and paranoias,
…all to feed multiple symbiotic empires (seminaries, church organizations, church leadership organizations, career influencers) all of which have salaries to pay, brands to build and keep building, and personal legacies to attend to.
it’s become a caricature. well-deserving of parodies. christopher guest, your next movie is right here. (Spinal Tap, Best In Show, etc. but christian)
The church has Americanized the office of pastor to be seeker-friendly. That sacred position no longer looks like the New Testament model. Anything goes.
I have a feeling we will all know just how much He is pi$$ed very soon. As Scripture notes “When judgment begins, it will begin at the House of God first.”
They just keep getting older, while their prey stays the same age.
Makes me wonder if this is a type of Arrested Development, being attracted to those of the same physical age as your psychological/mental/emotional age.
Makes sense. The behavioral science experts would know. Too bad there’s so much quackery about behavior in churches, and they don’t consult behavioral scientists.
OTOH, attraction to a younger person is a power trip. So maybe it’s more about power than arrested development.
elastigirl,
You’re right, and to a certain extent, religion really is the opium of the people.
In my state of California, former employers can confirm if someone worked for them. They can also answer the question “would you ever hire this person again?” With a yes or no. Any other kind of answer can be grounds for legal action by the former employee. If the former employee asks for a letter of recommendation, in which more performance information would be shared, the employer will usually refuse if it would be negative. I’m wondering if churches are left stuck, not being able to say much for poor performance not bordering on criminal behavior.
The church I attend had to let a pastor go 10 years ago. It turned out that he had untreated psychiatric issues that really affected his job performance, but he refused treatment. The church elders tried hard, but the pastor wouldn’t budge. Since then, he has been in two other churches, always with the same issues. Of course, word gets around after a while, which doesn’t help the former pastor at all.
Muff Potter,
i read the next blog post “Kevin DeYoung, Harry Reeder, Christ Covenant Church, and Charlotte Christian School: Years of Denial and Obfuscation Cause Long Term Pain for a Sexual Abuse Victim”.
so many feelings, so many reactions I had.
i ache for what happened and has happened to Stuart Griffin. i’m full of admiration for his courage.
and full of disgust for the churches involved.
yes, opium of the people… i see how those with power in religious contexts protect their power by using people’s faith against them – a process of pacifying them and then making them afraid and then pacifying them some more. to control them.
i don’t think they really understand that they’re doing this. as i see it, the cornerstone of christian culture is ‘the ends justifies the means’.
The Gospel of FEAR and Guilt Manipulation.
Let me tell you a little story from FRP game history:
Back in the Nineties there was this RPG called “TORG” whose premise was the Earth was being invaded by “Cosms” (alternate realities) that were changing the rules of reality to their realities. One of these Cosms was “Orrosh”, the Cosm of Victorian Gothic Horror.
In Orrosh, the war between God and Satan wasn’t a Cold War in the shadows – it was hot and in the open, with the Sacrellum (the Church) and The Dark Man (the Devil figure) going hammer-and-tongs with miracles, magick, and occult monsters. Total Spiritual Warfare like all these RL Spiritual Warfare gurus pretend to be.
And the Dark Man was winning, because of one little disinformation seed planted: That in order to defeat The Dark Man, the Sacrellum had to adopt the weapons and tactics of The Dark Man (some sort of equivalent of Black Magic with a coat of white paint).
AKA The End (defeating The Dark Man) Justified the Means (any whatsoever).
And once the Sacrellum started down that road, The Dark Man had Won. All he had to do was sit back and keep the pot boiling .Because he had infected the Sacrellum with his ways and attitudes, and made them his unknowing Tools and Minions.
Nothing prevents it from being a combination of both.
When Karl Marx coined that phrase in the 19th Century, it was in a different context than the way it’s used today.
I understand that phrase came at the end of a paragraph about how crushed down and hopeless were the working class in that age of extreme income inequality, little more than serfs to the super-rich Captains of Industry. And religious faith was the only consolation and comfort they could turn to. “Opiate” in the sense of drugging themselves numb just to survive (like cheap Gin).
A junior college economics textbook of mine stated that Marx’s actual life’s work was Das Kapital (a thorough systems analysis of Victorian-era capitalist economic system), NOT Communist Manifesto (an Apocalyptic call to arms). That Marx’s strength and skill was as a systems analyst, and he later turned himself into just another Prophet of Apocalypse. (Like a secular version of Hal Lindsay whose disciples posthumously ran with his prophecies.)
Me, I think the guy also had Aspergers – Couldn’t hold a job, hyperfocused on his analysis and economic philosophy, and seemed to be socially awkward and living a lot in his frontal lobes. I know that pattern from personal experience.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Yes – I did some reading on the subject. Can’t say Karl Marx is someone i’ve known much about.
I understand that he saw religion as meeting societal needs in a practical way.
but also recognized the dangers of focussing so much on an eternal timeframe
so as to dull oneself to present circumstances – and therefore accommodating inhumane, cruel, unjust conditions for oneself and others.
i certainly see that in christian culture.
a void of accountability for christian leaders, and happy-go-lucky followers who are brainwashed with scare tactics of ‘biblical’ not to rock the boat.
which really means they care more about their own pursuit of sinlessness & favor with God than they care about their neighbor and what is morally right.
it’s the darnedest thing… when ‘biblical’ meets moral and is severely trounced.
but maybe things are beginning to change…
I have long maintained that American Christianity needs an infusion of Judaism – its emphasis on the here-and-now ,living your life, and have a sense of humor about it – to restore balance. Too busy Preparing for Heaven (or Rapture) that they ceased to be human, too obsessed with Life Eternal (as a Soul in Heaven) that they never had the time to HAVE a life in the first place.
Remember the original Christian afterlife was RESURRECTION WITH A BODY, not floating around Heaven as a bodyless Soul like a Shade in Hades.
Once again, the Gospel of Personal Salvation and ONLY Personal Salvation.
Including keeping your nose squeeky-clean to pass the Rapture and Great White Throne Litmus Tests no matter what the collateral damage.
I also think it is “what you’ve always thought.” An attorney who practices employment law would know for sure, but I would imagine that the 1st Amendment’s guarantee of free exercise of religion would prevent the government making a law that would disallow a church to discipline a pastor.
NC is an at-will employment state, so an employer can fire an employee without a reason given, but I don’t think Eric McKiddie was fired. He resigned in the wake of an investigation. People can draw their own conclusions. He apparently did finish his doctorate but was not hired at Hilton Head Pres as a pastor or even minister position. (That means no tax breaks.) When he was first hired, his position was called “Executive Director” so “Director of Operations” is a change in title. At that church, some women also have the title of director.
He had family members who attended the church before he was hired, so they likely served as his reference whether someone from Chapel Hill Bible Church vouched for him or not.
(It’s my understanding that an individual can give someone a reference even if the organization just verifies employment dates and says whether or not the person is eligible for rehire.) But your article on McKiddie stays high on a Google search, Dee, so anyone who cared to search was warned.
The religious establishment is not Kantian enough!
Well observed. Oy veh.
(And preferably not the up to the minute Levantine dispensationist variation on it either.)
In the 10 th anniversary volume to commemorate one of Charles Taylor’s more recent sociological books, Bruce Ashford was almost the only contributor to engage seriously in the subject matter. Dr Ashford was not a good fit with the emotional climate at SEBTS or the Greear church.
The accusations against McKiddie happened years ago now, and you are still dragging his name through the mud online – it’s absolutely disgusting. The man was not convicted of any crimes, and you are not his judge or his jury. Even if there was an abuse of power, which is not a proven fact but an accusation, you have not given any grace for the man or his family to move on. Anyone who participates in this kind of stuff online is guilty of slander and would do well to revisit the scripture about casting the first stone. I only attended the Bible Church for a couple years, but when my own family was suffering, and my wife was going though breast cancer, Mr. McKiddie was there for us every step of the way.
Ben W,
I believe you would find that others did not have your good experience. Some people are still in pain. Your good experience does not negate theirs. I am here to defend and care for those harmed by the church. Perhaps, you should read a book: The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse. Which would help you to have some care for those who are harmed in churches. https://www.amazon.com/Subtle-Power-Spiritual-Abuse-Manipulation/dp/0764201379/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=2G1AFLRO6BAWK&keywords=the+subtle+power+of+spiritual+abuse+by+dan+johnson&qid=1704980965&sprefix=the+subtle+po%2Caps%2C121&sr=8-2-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1
Ben W,
And the Defenders of the Faith (and Divine Lead Pastor/Dictator) ring in.
Happens every time one of them comes under scrutiny on this and other church-corruption whistleblower blogs.
Drive-by Anathemas defending the Mighty Man Of GAWD(TM) and One True Church(TM).
In dirty politics, this is called a “Truth Squad” – an aggressive Propaganda Counterattack.
I wonder if this was making a lot more money for him than SEBTS was, plus he gets to control his own narrative. I don’t think Ashford had enough killer instinct to go toe to toe with someone like Mohler.
I have an old friend who is making a killing ghostwriting sermons (and I suspect books under NDAs that the pastor claimed they wrote). Churches begged him to go on staff with them, but he just turns them down because he can work from home, raise his kids, and make as much as a pastor at a large church.
ishy,
You mean they don’t have to listen to their parishioners’ sins? Sounds like a cushy gig!
Dee, how nice that you consider yourself to be compassionate, but there is nothing compassionate about dragging McKiddie’s name through he mud online; a man who has never been accused of sexual/physical abuse or convicted of any crime in a court of law. You are not helping anyone — you are slandering another human being. I say this as a person who is not a calvinist, has no relationship to CHBC, and who has no skin in this.
Ben W,
Dee’s 24.9.2021 post points to strangely contexted language and to orientations towards extraneous and troubled high profile religious organisations. It also gives her eyewitness account of pointed hierarchically-oriented behaviours beyond the average casually friction-causing church personnel. A sincere but imperfect church would just have staff come and go, and the boss stay in place, without sheepishly commenting.
In one of my denominations in at least one of the districts I lived in, the ostensible hierarchy was solely there to ensure the buildings got maintained and regular services were held by clergy. Completely contrasting with that, a thing that needs comment is these weird contorsions over ostentatiously warped theology, as if this church – unlike the Bible writers – aren’t convinced there are any teachings other than (their idea of) church order.
Theology needs critiquing all the time by everybody: people who sit waiting for headline hot button-flavoured incidents never connect those to theology if they do occur anyway. As commenter my skin in the game is that several churches I was at have links to TWW star cases and I witnessed some similar tactics and bases for “teaching” (disorienting to the state of my belief). Dee has explained she noticed that this church itself was showcasing its theology in a strange manner. Theology critique, when theology doesn’t add up, isn’t mud per se: God having given us the criteria commanded us to do it. Meantime not everything that’s effectively the same as “calvinistic” gets named so by its proponents.
Michael in UK,
From situations I lived through, nearly always some malfeasance emerged after I walked out after clocking an iffy feel, from very big to very small if brushing off of informative feedback about hysterical sentimentality sabotaging spirituality is small.
In one of our medium sized sidelines, in what was flaunted at the time as a “miracle property acquisition” (I no longer care where), my up to then friends’ associates forced the owners to pay court fees to recover their property.
In connection with other cases which I’m not at enough removes from, people in positions of essentially legitimate influence were hurt in ways some of them are only just adjusting to. All of these incidents have highlighted real Biblical theology for me; in every case incidentally, the leadership discouraged prayer by ordinary believers.
Michael in UK,
Pretty long winded. I specifically have a problem with what I consider to be the online harassment and slandering of a man who has not been convicted of any crime, nor accused of any sexual/physical abuse. It’s outrageous and immoral, and anyone who participates in this kind of thing should be ashamed.
Ben W,
Eric McKiddie abused so many souls while at Chapel Hill Bible Church, leaving hundreds of people injured as a result. After threatening a lawsuit, he left under an NDA and a large payout. Those he abused left with scars that run deep, some with NDAs, some without, but none left with genuine apologies of remorse (true repentance) or even any $ that came close to what McKiddie ran off to S.C. with.