Poppy, my newly adopted 2-year-old rescue pug. Buttercup and Tulip are not amused.
Be thou comforted, little dog, Thou too in Resurrection shall have a little golden tail. Martin Luther
There are many things in life that I would not like to do, yet I admire those who have the skill and fortitude to succeed in their chosen activity. Politics is one of those ventures. Years ago, I considered running for a local political office. I spent some time volunteering in associated groups. Unfortunately, I soon discovered I was a hopeless idealist and that the manure was so deep that I didn’t have the fortitude to shovel it out or accept it.
Over time I also discovered the politicking that goes on in churches, be they nondenominational or part of a denomination. This blog began its intrepid voyage due to my experience of watching an SBC church fail, in my opinion, to care for the children and teens in their care. In addition, I watched and experienced the ugliness that comes to the fore when a church feels threatened by possible exposure.
As the SBC began to deal with its horrific history of sexual abuse coverup, it appointed a team to implement a ministry database to keep track of abusers in their midst. Yet even that was controversial, and many church leaders and their lawyers remain on high alert as the SBC’s Abuse Reform Implementation Task Force (ARiTF) attempts to create an innovative and comprehensive directory of sexual abusers and molesters.
But there is pushback. Mike Stone, once again running for SBC President, wants a more “biblical” task force, whatever that means. Yet he has a history of downplaying sex abuse when he was on the Executive Committee, which he vigorously denies. Also, SBC Voices posted Mike Stone’s Campaign Story—An SBC Case Study Not to Be Repeated (Troy Bush).
David Pittman is a survivor of the abuse in Mike’s campaign story, and he says Mike’s comments are “another example of re-traumatizing survivors for personal gain.” For more than a decade, David and other survivors have been exposing their abuser and trying to prevent him from serving in SBC churches. Mike claimed credit when, instead of his story, their story should have been told. Their efforts deserve to be remembered and respected, and their story should become a case study for the SBC so it is never repeated.
Remember, the SBC claims that each SBC church is autonomous, which means that the potential for extreme differences and disagreements is guaranteed. I have decided that I would find serving on this task force disheartening. I hoped for smooth sailing, but this is the SBC, folks, and high waves and icebergs threaten at every moment.
The question at hand: What does it mean to be credibly accused?
All of us have some idea of what that might mean. But what did the SBC messengers mean by this term? From the ARITF:
The recommendation by the Sexual Abuse Task Force, passed overwhelmingly by the messengers to the 2022 SBC Annual Meeting in Anaheim, included a specific definition of “credibly accused.” That recommendation stated,
A credibly accused pastor, denominational worker, or ministry employee or volunteer includes one who has confessed in a non-privileged setting, who has been convicted in a court of law, or who has had a civil judgment rendered against them.
Additionally, an independent third party who has been hired by any church or other Baptist body, may determine, by preponderance of the evidence following an inquiry, that a pastor, denominational worker, or ministry employee or volunteer is credibly accused. A “preponderance of the evidence” is the legal standard required for a civil judgment.
This task force took seriously the authorization by the messengers to pursue a Ministry Check website to maintain a record of those who would qualify under that definition. This includes four categories:
Confession in a non-privileged setting
Conviction in a court of law
Civil judgment rendered
Determination by an independent third party according to a preponderance of evidence
There appears to be no difficulty with numbers 1-3. Number 4 is causing some problems.
However, we believe that delaying the implementation of the Ministry Check Website in light of the challenges presented by category four is both unwise and unnecessary. Therefore, to fulfill the messengers’ mandate we are preparing to launch the Ministry Check Website utilizing only categories 1-3 at this time.
In other words, the Ministry Database, for the time being, will consist only of the first three.
A dilemma and a debate
Let’s look at two examples.
What if a church refuses to do a third-party investigation? Look at Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville, CJ Mahaney’s church.
There is little doubt that there are many allegations surrounding Mahaney and Sovereign Grace. Many were willing to sue, but the suits were rejected due to the Statute of Limitations. That has now changed in Maryland, and one would hope for lawsuits to follow. Here is a history of this denomination. The Sex-Abuse Scandal That Devastated a Suburban Megachurch.
But Sovereign Grace refused to do such an investigation. Sovereign Grace Calls Outside Investigation ‘Impossible.’ As of today, Mahaney’s church, which was called out in the Houston Chronicle investigation of abuse in the SBC, is a member in good standing.
In this case, the SBC can do nothing but wring its hands and cry crocodile tears. The question here is simple. What if a church refuses to do an internal investigation? Could the church be thrown out of the SBC with no “proof,” only credible accusations via media investigation?
As a Christian denomination, should something be done about sex abuse anyway, since it would be right? Would the SBC do it even with the threat of lawsuits? I have my doubts. I bet they have lawyers, lots of lawyers, who would tell them not to do so. Should the SBC shun Sovereign Grace even if lawsuits are threatened? This brings us to the second question.
Johnny Hunt is suing the SBC because he says it was consensual and not abuse. So how will the SBC deal with the inevitable lawsuits?
He was accused of molesting a woman in a hotel room. He said it was consensual. Some friendly pastors restored him, and he is suing the SBC, claiming he was defamed. Hunt was outed due to the Guidepost investigation. He’s suing them as well.
Then four SBC pastors did their own thing and claimed he was restored. Read Four Pastors Claim Johnny Hunt Was Restored and Good to Go and Then He Sort of Wasn’t. Chaos Ensued.
What constitutes a third-party investigation? Can a group of SBC pastors do their own investigation and claim a person is fully restored? Given the autonomous nature of all SBC churches, how does the ARITF (they need an easier acronym, IMO) impose mandates?
I must admit that I doubt a simple solution will be found. The SBC formed a denomination in which kicking out a church with a female pastor is easier than kicking out a church like Sovereign Grace of Louisville. One can prove a female pastor is present. Can they prove abuse? Can they do so without getting sued? Do they have the stomach to do it if it is right, but they will get sued? Where is God in this interchange?
Faith-based Solutions, a division of Guidepost Solutions, is out, sort of, and maybe just for now.
Samantha Kilpatrick is still running the hotline but may need to see if one of the database folks can use her. I have a hunch they will be attempting to use Faith-based Solutions for other causes in the future. Could they be used to do church investigations? Would they be the “investigator of choice” for future needs in the SBC? Who knows?
fter listening and giving careful consideration, the Task Force determined, in consultation with the Credentials Committee, to move away from Faith-Based Solutions (the Christian-led division of Guidepost) as the provider and manager of the website. Among other outcomes, this meant dividing the work related to Ministry Check between multiple providers. This added complexity to our assignment, but our goal was cooperation. In order to encourage unity and the widest possible cooperation among our churches in combating abuse, we sought to remove every stumbling block.
It was a good move to dump Guidepost but for an entirely different reason than an LGBT support tweet. Guidepost has a complex history, including helping out with some creepy (IMO) characters. I wrote The Problem with Guidepost Solutions Is Not the LGBT Tweet. I Wonder If Guidepost Cares More About the Victims or the Money.
Guidepost Solutions helps creepy and wealthy customers.
First, let’s go way back to when Guidepost Solutions was hired. We wrote: Guidepost Solutions, Hired by the SBC, Has a Seeming History of Helping the Wealthy “Bad Guy.” If I’m Confused, Others Are As Well. They help the “high profile. high net worth clients” with image problems. Harvey Weinstein, ARod, and Dominique Strauss-Kahn come to mind. Read the post for details. I must admit that I’m worried they will come out on the side of the “bad guys.” However, their investigation helped to alleviate that concern somewhat. I guess they come out on the side of those who pay them.
On May 26, 2023, I wrote What In the World Is Going on at SWBTS? Also, Christa Brown and David Clohessy Expose Problems With the SBC’s Response to the SATF Findings #ThisistheSBC.
At the moment, we know very little about the number of calls to the hotline.
Did you know that the SBC has not outed a single accused abuser?
Despite much talk and multiple committees, the SBC has not yet, on its own, outed and held accountable a single credibly accused clergy sex abuser.
This is the most disturbing part of their post. Individual churches are supposed to initiate their own independent investigation. (Yeah, right!) However, it’s not up to the SBC to oversee this because every church is autonomous. (Passing the buck?)
Currently, a call to the SBC’s sexual abuse hotline does not trigger an immediate independent investigation to assess whether a pastor is credibly accused. Instead, an abuse report may get referred to the relevant church, and the church is responsible for initiating an independent investigation. According to the Abuse Reform Implementation Task Force, “each local church has full autonomy in selecting an independent, qualified firm.”
Did you know the abusers on the former secret list are still not listed?
- Immediately add to the new Ministry Check database all the names of pastors and church staff that are on the Executive Committee’s list released a year ago.
For at least 15 years, the SBC’s Executive Committee kept a secret list of sexual abusers. Even as survivors struggled desperately to warn congregations about preacher-predators, SBC officials knew about more than 700 abusive pastors and took no action to protect people — the moral bankruptcy of it is unfathomable.
Finally, in the face of survivors’ demands and media pressure, the Executive Committee made its list public.
Is the new Ministry Check database adding convicted or self-confessed church staff? You guessed it…
- Immediately add to the new Ministry Check database all the names of any pastor or church staff for whom documentation has been submitted of a criminal conviction or plea bargain on sexual abuse or sexual assault, or on the possession or distribution of child sexual abuse materials.
“I gave her the name of my perp, I sent the scanned felony paperwork, the link to his being on the Texas sex offender list, and still, I do not see his name on the SBC list.”
That’s what a survivor said about her communication, 10 months ago, with the SBC’s sexual abuse hotline.
If one is interested in exploring this subject further, SBC Voices is discussing this in The database, including ‘credible reports’ of abuse. A bridge too far?
If abuse is reported to the database administrator. The church is contacted but denies and/or is unwilling to hire independent people to investigate, then what? The EC hires someone to investigate the individual and the local church. How is that not the case that the EC accepts some responsibility for the matter? No one at the EC hired, failed to supervise, fired or not the accused. All that is at the local church level, as is every hiring decision and supervisory decision for every local church pastor, staff, or volunteer in each of the churches.
The SBCEC has no power here, save for being able to exclude the church from being on the SBC church list and being able to seat messengers at the annual meeting. So far as I understand, any church can call itself Southern Baptist for the most minimal of contributions and affiliations. The SBCEC cannot change that by unilateral action.
…We will have a database. No church has to use it. It will not include credibly accused individuals.
Given what I have written, I would rather be a telemarketer than deal with thousands of autonomous churches on the ARITF. I am grateful for their efforts but wonder if they have moments when they think telesales would be easier. The entity known as the SBC has brought this on itself. Eventually, I believe they will be forced to take responsibility for the behemoth they created. Within that leviathan is the long history of sexual abuse. God is watching, and so are lots of us. #ThisistheSBC
In the days leading up to the 2023 SBC Annual Meeting in New Orleans, the work of the Abuse Reform Implementation Task Force has been the subject of considerable conversation in anticipation of its report scheduled for Tuesday afternoon. Some of the conversations has been speculative, as might be expected, but sadly some of it is simply misinformed. Therefore, rather than waiting to clarify some of the inaccurate statements surrounding our work, the ARITF offers the following statement to bring truth and clarity to our SBC family.
Background
The recommendation by the Sexual Abuse Task Force, passed overwhelmingly by the messengers to the 2022 SBC Annual Meeting in Anaheim, included a specific definition of “credibly accused.” That recommendation stated,
A credibly accused pastor, denominational worker, or ministry employee or volunteer includes one who has confessed in a non-privileged setting, who has been convicted in a court of law, or who has had a civil judgment rendered against them.
Additionally, an independent third party who has been hired by any church or other Baptist body, may determine, by preponderance of the evidence following an inquiry, that a pastor, denominational worker, or ministry employee or volunteer is credibly accused. A “preponderance of the evidence” is the legal standard required for a civil judgment.
This task force took seriously the authorization by the messengers to pursue a Ministry Check website to maintain a record of those who would qualify under that definition. This includes four categories:
-
Confession in a non-privileged setting
-
Conviction in a court of law
-
Civil judgment rendered
-
Determination by an independent third party according to a preponderance of evidence
While considerable discussion and questions have been raised about the fourth category, it is important to note that the term “credibly accused” refers to all four categories.
Additionally, for purposes of the Ministry Check website, the term “sexual abuse” is defined as any sexual act that could result in a criminal conviction or civil liability in the jurisdiction where it occurred. This means that the Ministry Check website will specifically refer to and utilize objective legal definitions and standards when evaluating allegations of sexual abuse.
Next Steps
The ARITF has consulted with many advisers, legal experts, and investigative firms as we have worked to develop the Ministry Check Website. As a result of those consultations, the ARITF is preparing to launch the Ministry Check Website and will include individuals who meet the standard of credibly accused according to the first three categories. This step honors the messengers’ will to the 2022 SBC Annual Meeting, furthers our commitment to prevent sexual abuse, and provides Southern Baptists with a vital tool to help make churches and entities safer.
Category Four
Category four is crucially important to the efforts to protect the vulnerable and make our churches safe from sexual abuse. In the vast majority of cases, sexual abuse will not be detected under the first three categories. The following statistics attest to this reality:
-
2 out of 3 sexual assaults go unreported. (RAINN)
-
Out of every 1000 sexual assaults, only 25 offenders will ever be convicted. (RAINN)
-
A male abuser who molests boys has an average of 150 victims. (Emory University)
-
A male abuser who molests girls has an average of 52 victims. (Emory University)
-
Only 16% of child victims ever tell about their abuse. (NCAC)
As we prepare to launch the Ministry Check Website, we are convinced category four requires further study and consideration. Therefore, we are continuing to consult with a deep and broad pool of experts in the field to ensure we fully address the unique legal, ecclesial, and functional questions related to this category. However, we believe that delaying the implementation of the Ministry Check Website in light of the challenges presented by category four is both unwise and unnecessary. Therefore, to fulfill the messengers’ mandate we are preparing to launch the Ministry Check Website utilizing only categories 1-3 at this time.
The ARITF is not abandoning category four. We are, however, committed to implementing each category once it is fully developed. We will continue to work closely with churches, leaders, survivors and experts to thoroughly address concerns and ensure that the development of this category is as effective as possible in protecting all parties. Our goal has always been to establish a reliable and trustworthy website so local churches can help each other identify predators and avoid bringing them into positions (volunteer or paid) where children and vulnerable adults are at risk of abuse.
Responding to Questions and Concerns
The ARITF exists to serve all of our Southern Baptist churches in order to initiate reforms that will enable churches to minister Christlike to those abused and help churches prevent abuse. After the February announcement to choose Faith-Based Solutions to establish and maintain the Ministry Check Website, the Task Force spent the next thirty days in conversations with hundreds of people across the convention at almost every level. During that period, we focused on listening carefully to concerns and responding only after thoughtfully considering feedback and perspectives. After listening and carefully considering, the Task Force decided, in consultation with the Credentials Committee, to move away from Faith-Based Solutions (the Christian-led division of Guidepost) as the provider and manager of the website. Among other outcomes, this meant dividing the work related to Ministry Check between multiple providers. This added complexity to our assignment, but our goal was cooperation. In order to encourage unity and the widest possible cooperation among our churches in combating abuse, we sought to remove every stumbling block.
False Narratives
There is a narrative being promoted that these steps were taken in response to threats about churches or conventions withholding Cooperative Program funds. The ARITF agreed to pursue these changes for one reason: to have the widest possible participation by our churches to stop sexual abuse. We believe the overwhelming majority of Southern Baptists share our desire to stop sexual abuse, therefore we sought to remove any stumbling block that would threaten or hinder our partnership in this cause. It is also worth noting that the ARITF met to make these changes before any state convention made any public announcements. To suggest these decisions were made based upon concerns about money or any other motivation lacks integrity. We also object to the use of “threats” as a method of change. Christians have conversations with the character of Christ, and that is exactly what the Task Force has sought to do. We have met with and had conversations with pastors and leaders from nearly every state convention. We never took any of those conversations to be threats. We would never mischaracterize the fellowship of our brothers and sisters in Christ in that way. We are of one mind to serve Christ, and in the work of this Task Force, we aim to help every single church become the safest place possible for every person to come to know our great Savior.
What a floating, burning, dumpster fire…
Priorities #1 and #2 (interchangeable): protect the SBC; promote the SBC.
Here’s another sad thing about this mess. The average Southern Baptist across 45,000+ churches doesn’t even know there is an SBC sex abuse task force or that hundreds of SBC church leaders have been accused of sex abuse. It’s not on their radar. They are just going about their lives doing church in their local community and are uninformed about these things. Unless their pastor has told them or they’ve read something in a denominational media source, they just don’t have a clue about what’s going on.
Poppy is just too precious!
“What a floating, burning, dumpster fire…” Totally agree, Jeffrey. Sigh. If the SBC refuses to act, then I pray that the DOJ or other governmental/legal entity will step in and hold the SBC toes to the fire. Perhaps then more truth will come out and a few victims are vindicated. What a stinkin’ mess.
When it’s easier to kick out a lady Pastor than it is to rid the denomination of sex-abusers, what does that say to the outside world?
Even more so, what does it say to rank and file Baptist little people?
Semantics, My Dear Wormwood.
And a heavy dose of “how many of us can dance on the head of a pin”.
Now THAT”s Giving the Sad Eye.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
She looks a bit worried to me. New home, new people, new siblings…. I’d be worried, too.
But, Dee will fix that in short order.
> What if a church refuses to do an internal investigation?
The Task Force should be funded sufficiently generously that it can fund such investigations, using investigators it prefers. There would be no cost to the congregation in question.
If the congregation refuses this offer, or does not cooperate with the investigation, it could be declared “not a cooperating church” and expelled from the SBC.
Just spitballing
I agree with Dee. I would not want this to be my job in a million years.
The biggest question, imho, is not “how do we get churches to do independent investigations?”
It’s “what do we do about the under-reporting and under-prosecution of sexual violence?” As long as the stats quoted at the end of the article hold, anybody trying to solve the abuse issue from the top down will inevitably fail, because they can only address the tip of the iceberg.
I think that actually changing any of this, in the SBC or the broader culture, would require a seismic cultural shift in the way we relate to power, hierarchy and sexuality. Which no task force can accomplish.
Samuel Conner,
If the congregation refuses this offer, or does not cooperate with the investigation, it could be declared “not a cooperating church” and expelled from the SBC
That would have to be presented as a proposal at the convention, debated, voted on……..
There’s too much financial expenditure risk. Unless the cases have been handed over to local law enforcement and the offenders have either admitted the crime or had been found guilty in court, there would have to be a multitude of independent, private investigations that someone would have to finance. And there’s the lawsuit risk by men like Jonny Hunt and David Sills.
They want more, more, more money- not less. I think the Benjamins are more important to them than a little forced hanky-panky. Higher has protected predators and shut down victims for decades. I don’t believe that a handful of people who put moral values above the all mighty dollar have enough influence and power to change things. I hope I’m wrong…….
But, if you think there was a kerfuffle at HQ and the convention after the abuse scandals were exposed, you ain’t seen nuthin yet.
“Poppy, my newly adopted 2-year-old rescue pug.”
+++++++++++
i just want to scoop her up, snuggle up and coo things like “boobooboo”
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
Well said!!
dee,
She is currently peeing on her sister’s bed as some sort of “I’m alpha.” She will look cuter to me once I break her of that habit.
dee,
Okay, Poppy. Two of our dogs have messages for you:
Lizzie (aka Queen Elizabeth III) says, “There are classy ways to prove your superiority. Get creative. You don’t need to stink up the house and make more work for the humans you own.”
Jack the pitbull says, “Stay away from snakes – snakes will hurt you. Don’t ever stick your head in a big glass jar- that’s not good either… believe me, I know. But, if a Fed Ex or UPS driver leave a ham sammich on the dash, it’s okay to hop in and steal the sammich……. They think it’s sweeeeet! Besides, they won’t take us for joy rides in the big vans (hey, I tried…and tried), so they owe us!”
dee,
It just irks me to no end that they can have the ability and the full support to exercise absolute dominance and control over women….. their sisters in Christ, but they can’t even find a way to so much as say, “Boo!” to their very wayward brothers who are committing heinous crimes.
….. All while the elite at the SBC entities used money like it’s toilet paper.
Would their hands still be so firmly tied if their family members were victimized by some of these predators?
Spray a mix of 50/50 water and vinegar on certain areas and she will avoid them…and it will take away the smell too.
dee,
We have had 3 rescue dogs at once, and there can be “interesting” dominance “behavior”.. Funny, TWW has reported on allot of “interesting” dominance “behavior” of church leadership… some seem pretty dog like… like McDonalds son peeing in a cup in front of veryone… and Deep throat Driscol…
It wasn’t toilet paper when hard-working Southern Baptists across the country dropped it into the offering plate … the elite turned it into filthy lucre with their riotous living.
Jeffrey J Chalmers,
Then you know what we are going through. She pees on Tulip’s bed and steals Buttercup’s toys. Buttercup has taken to sleeping with her toys and bones underneath her. Finally, we have the bathroom punishment. She goes to the bathroom for five minutes if she does something inappropriate. She hates being separated from everyone. I set a timer. It increases by 5 minutes per offense. She is slowly doing better.
dee,
If it did not make a mess, it is kind of amusing..
And the pastor who peed on his wife in the shower to “mark his territory”…
As we see playing out in the SBC elites, all men and women are sinful. Doesn’t Jeremiah tell us that “the heart of man is exceedingly wicked, who can trust it?”. The SBC are in the process of trying to protect their turf. They used the poor children and women who were abused until it didn’t appear to be working any more. Then, not so much. They are and will continue to pivot to something else. Until there is a change of the elite, there will be nothing really changing in the SBC. To which I will say again, The SBC appears to be lost. It does not appear that it will be fixed.
Amen and Amen! Until SBC decides to put “Jesus First” leaders in place, nothing will change … the denomination can’t take much more self-centered “Me First” leadership.
In less than two weeks, thousands of Southern Baptists and their band of elite leaders will meet in New Orleans for their annual convention. It will be a power-packed week of inspiring speeches, talented singing, votes on various resolutions, election of new officers, and side-trips to dark New Orleans attractions. At the end of the week, thousands of Southern Baptists and their band of elite leaders will join hands, resolve to be a better people, sing Kumbaya, and return home with nothing changed. Meanwhile, the Kingdom of God and the Great Commission move forward without them except for a few here and there who have not sold out.
Once the darlings of the New Calvinist movement … and we wonder if God had His hand on it?!
Max,
Showboating, for public consumption.
Ken A, Until there is a change of the elite, there will be nothing really changing in the SBC.
I think it’s more like until the elite either step aside, or are forced out. The SBC doesn’t need a subset of royalty, of “kingmakers”, of rulers.
It should be a group of equals, working side by side, each using their individual abilities to do what they can. Sure, it needs people with leadership abilities, organizational abilities, managerial abilities, and so on……….
But, that is not what the SBC is anymore. Nope. Much of the SBC is being run by group of men who advance through cronyism ……… and are focused on personal power, fame, and money.
“Unspeakable! Sickening!
What’s happened in this country?
Prophets preach lies
and priests hire on as their assistants.
And my people love it. They eat it up!
But what will you do when it’s time to pick up the pieces?”
(Jeremiah 5:31 MSG)
Because we’re made in God’s image, the human heart also has great goodness.
Dee, I’d this comment is too off topic, too ‘out there’, just go ahead and delete it. I won’t be offended. But I would like to tell a doggie story, if I may – a true story. This is something I’ll never forget, but Buttercup and her toys brought it to the forefront of my mind.
Christmas Day 2006, house full of people… Characters involved:
my then 22 month old niece
1 year old, 45 pound Lucy, an adoptee
5 1/2 year old, 104 pound Rebel (he was a gift from an assistant HS principle, home of the Rebels)
6 year old, 110 pound Buck, an adoptee
This is what happened:
My niece was fascinated by Lucy’s toys. She would take one, carry it around, then drop it somewhere and go take another. Lucy was not pleased. She watched for a while, then quickly gathered her toys, put them in her bed, and laid down in the bed across the toys. When my niece tried to approach Lucy to get the toys, Buck and Rebel stepped in between the two and effectively, yet gently, kept my niece from getting to Lucy and her toys.
All of the adults watched in amazement, and none interfered.
I suppose there’s sort of a moral to this true story. The big and the strong should protect and defend the small and the weak…. sometimes I think some dogs have higher moral values than some people.
In somewhat related news, last Friday the chair of the board for the Baptist Children’s Home of North Carolina (an organization I have volunteered with in the past) was, along with his wife, charged with animal cruelty. He subsequently resigned from the board. It should be noted that the former chair is a man of some means, but I’m sure that had nothing to do with his being selecte as chair of the board. Also noteworthy, he and his wife are involved with an unrelated animal rescue organization.
Link to the Roy’s Report: https://julieroys.com/chair-of-nc-baptist-childrens-homes-resigns-after-arrest-animal-cruelty/
Curiously, the very next day the long time CEO of the Baptist Children’s Home of NC took an indefinite leave of absence. As of today no reason has been given. His age might be a factor, as could an undisclosed health condition, but the timing is suspect.
MONEY TALKS.
“And that’s how you get invited back!”
— Cee Jay “Chuckles” Mahaney, HUMBLY brandishing a large-amount check
Adolf Hitler was against cruelty to animals, too.
It’s a pattern I’ve seen in Furry Fandom:
Those who get into Furry (or animal welfare) not because they like animals but because they Hate Hy00mans more. Plus the opportunities for Virtue Signalling with such a Trendy Cause.
Not much different from Putin’s Russia.
Max,
“Dark New Orleans attractions”?
In the 19th and early 20th Centuries, New Orleans was as famous for “sex tourism” as Bangkok is today. Was that what you meant, or the Voodoo/Gris-Gris shops in the Quarter?
The Big Easy is one WEIRD town, but you eat well there.
The thought occurs that a corollary of Jesus’ famous “the poor you have with you always” is that “self-interested elites will always be in control”.
It’s the “iron law of institutions”, and it’s IMO one of the reasons for the decline in trust in institutions that is noted in this week’s e-church message.
The elites will certainly fight to preserve their control. It may sound seditious, but the only solution may be to “walk away”.
(Which, btw, is the title of a novel by Corey Doctorow that is, from what I have read about it — i have not read it itself — a combination of future dystopian and utopian imagination)
Burwell Stark,
Even though their back-log is huge, Karma and her sister Comeuppance will be paying the Goldstons a visit. They have zero tolerance for those who are cruel to animals.
I think the same way.
I never had a dog I didn’t trust … can’t say that about some of the preachers I knew along the way.
Jim Goldston, also a Patterson-era Southeastern Seminary trustee, joined 2001 and was secretary, then treasurer of the SEBTS trustee board!
April 2001
https://www.baptistpress.com/resource-library/news/sebts-trustees-require-new-faculty-to-sign-bfm-increase-budget-by-2m/
“trustees voted to rename Johnson Dormitory, a recently renovated all-male housing unit, in behalf of Jim and Agnes Goldston. Goldston, previously the owner of Goldston’s Building Supply in Raleigh, N.C., has contributed to the seminary through monetary gifts for construction projects as well as student scholarship funds. Trustees declared April 10, 2001, as Jim and Agnes Goldston Day in appreciation of their contributions to the seminary.”
later that month, announcement of Jim Goldston’s nomination to the trustee board of SEBTS:
https://www.baptistpress.com/resource-library/news/sbc-executive-committee-boards-commission-seminaries-committee-nominees-announced-2/
Jerome,
I guess money really will cover a multitude of sins.
I hope someone puts a statue of a Labrador retriever on the front lawn of that building.
Jerome,
Big donors to SBC entities love to have their names displayed on buildings … it’s the only reason some of them give big bucks. SBC has no problem bestowing such honors to keep the gravy train on the track. Apparently, it matters not that some of the donors have a bit of a dark side to them. And who can forget Paige Patterson’s “stained” glass windows at SWBTS portraying SBC idols, which included an alleged pedophile, an adulterer, and “Break her down” Patterson himself!
Max,
And Pressler’s wife… And Patterson’s wife and dog!
In hindsight, I find it funny that Rick Warren’s stained glass image was there, too!!! Now, they’ve booted the church he founded!
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
“I couldn’t believe my eyes: Painted all over the walls were pictures of … gods and goddesses — being worshiped by Israel … He said, “Son of man, do you see what the elders are doing here in the dark, each one before his favorite god-picture? They tell themselves, ‘God doesn’t see us. God has forsaken the country.’” (Ezekiel 8 MSG)
There’s quite a range of characters in the SBC. They are certainly an entertaining bunch (except for the perverts amongst them).
dee,
We use “time outs” also… we have seen quite a number of unique issues, both territory and what looks like jealousy..
Dark money from the Dark Side.
Did Jesus take Dark money? His ministry didn’t run on money, so maybe it was a non-issue. Same for the disciples and the early church, which ran on the 18 gifts of the Spirit. One of the gifts is giving. The early church had a committee to give to needy widows and such. We’ve never seen such a committee in a church. There are rich widows. And there are needy widows. It happens. Life.
Church leaders are too “needy” themselves to put together a committee like that! It’s an impure and blemished religion that doesn’t see and respond to those in need, particularly those who are in their church. The fatherless and widows should be at the head of the list.
“Pure and unblemished religion [as it is expressed in outward acts] in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit and look after the fatherless and the widows in their distress, and to keep oneself uncontaminated by the [secular] world.” (James 1:27 AMP)
Perhaps they put themselves in that position.
18 gifts of the Holy Spirit are given to the Body of Christ for the benefit of the entire church: since the Holy Spirit is the Giver, do I get to pick which gift, and then charge a fee or command a salary from the church for the “gift” that I select to “give” to the church?
1. Wisdom: I Corinthians 12:8; Luke 6:9.
2. Knowledge: I Corinthians 12:8; Luke 18:22.
3. Faith: I Corinthians 12:9; Acts 3:6-7
4. Healing: I Corinthians 12:9, 28; Acts 28:1-10.
5. Miracles: I Corinthians 12:10; Acts 6:8.
6. Prophecy: I Corinthians 12:10; I Thessalonians 5:20-21; Ephesians 4:11.
7. Discernment: I Corinthians 12:10; Luke 8:29.
8. Languages: I Corinthians 12:10; Acts 19:6.
9. Interpretation: I Corinthians 12:10; 14:13-33.
10. Helps or Service: I Corinthians 12:28; Romans 12:7; II Timothy 1:16-18.
11. Administration: I Corinthians 12:28; Acts 6:2-3.
12. Encouragement or exhortation: Romans 12:6; Ephesians 3:7; 4:7; I Peter 4:10-11.
13. Shepherding or pastoring: Ephesians 4:11.
14. Teaching: Romans 12:7; Ephesians 4:11-14.
15. Encouragement: Romans 12:8; Hebrews 10:24-25.
16. Giving: Romans 12:8; I Corinthians 13:3; Acts 4:32-35
17. Leadership/Administration: Romans 12:8; Acts 13:12.
18. Mercy: Romans 12:8; Luke 5:12-13.
Can I charge $$$ for the gift the Holy Spirit gives me to give to the church?
Do I pay others $$$ for their gift that the Holy Spirit gives them to give to the church?
The New Testament local believers provided room and board for a few days for church worker disciples that traveled to share their gift. The traveling disciples were only to stay with a local church for a few days, and not wear out their welcome, nor become dependent or codependent.
It seems a lot of “leaders” these days are sticking it to local churches for a full-on lavish lifestyle as these “leaders” give their “gift” to the church. Do these “leaders” even study their Bibles? Or, do they just leverage the Bible for their purposes, AKA, create their own self-serving theology?
When/How does a gift of the Holy Spirit to the Body of Christ become a salaried position? It’s not in the NT. Where are the seminaries on this? Just part of the whole system?
Ava Aaronson,
Corrections.
I have done this list from Romans 12, 1 Cor. 12, and Eph. 4, many times on my own, studying it from the Bible. There are books and Bible studies with the exact same list. However, I saw a website with the list and thought it was correct – it was not. That author had taken out several “gifts” and made them salaried paying jobs, replacing them with other things to muddle the list. Incorrect.
Here is another list, but study for yourself and see what you come up with. There are lots of books on Amazon with different numbers: The 7 Gifts of the HS, The 5 Gifts of the HS, The 9 Gifts of the HS. It seems some people want to get paid for the other “gifts” – listed as gifts in the Bible. We can read for ourselves and figure out what God is doing. This is not rocket science – we don’t need SpaceX – or bad theology that lies.
In any case:
NOTE: 1 Cor. 12:11 “All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he – the Holy Spirit – distributes them to each one, just as he determines.” We don’t get to pick.
1. Wisdom: I Corinthians 12:8; Luke 6:9.
2. Knowledge: I Corinthians 12:8; Luke 18:22.
3. Faith: I Corinthians 12:9; Acts 3:6-7
4. Healing: I Corinthians 12:9, 28; Acts 28:1-10.
5. Miracles: I Corinthians 12:10; Acts 6:8.
6. Prophecy: I Corinthians 12:10; I Thessalonians 5:20-21; Ephesians 4:11.
7. Discernment: I Corinthians 12:10; Luke 8:29.
8. Languages: I Corinthians 12:10; Acts 19:6.
9. Interpretation: I Corinthians 12:10; 14:13-33.
10. Apostle: 1 Corinthians 12:28; Ephesians 4
11. Service: I Corinthians 12:28; Romans 12:7; II Timothy 1:16-18.
12. Administration: I Corinthians 12:28; Acts 6:2-3; Romans 12:8; Acts 13:12.
13. Encouragement/exhortation: Rom 12:6,8; I Peter 4:10-11; Heb 10:24-25.
14. Shepherding or pastoring: Ephesians 4:11.
15. Teaching: Romans 12:7; 1 Corinthians 12:28; Ephesians 4:11-14.
16. Giving: Romans 12:8; I Corinthians 13:3; Acts 4:32-35
17. Evangelism: Ephesians 4:11; Acts 21:8; 2 Timothy 4:5.
18. Mercy: Romans 12:8; Luke 5:12-13.
Thanks for your patience. God bless your Bible study.
Nor can we go to seminary to acquire ministry gifts.
One of the best preacher/evangelist I ever sat under never attended a Bible school or seminary. He was obviously gifted by the Holy Spirit to preach the Gospel – we saw many converted to Christ under his ministry. A humble servant of God, he never sought power, position or accolades. While he could have demanded a larger church and larger salary, he served faithfully in rural areas and was loved by many. Giftedness of this sort is largely missing in the American church. I’m not opposed to Bible school or seminary, but education does not equal gifting.
True. Well-stated. We can’t replicate what the Holy Spirit does. (Satan tries – he is the imitator.) However, education is beneficial, essential, and important, too.
Decades ago, my wife taught Sunday School to a bunch of unruly children bussed in from a nearby coal mining community. One Sunday when the new Sunday School literature didn’t arrive in time, she read the Gospel to them out of the Bible. They became convicted, wanted to know more, she continued to share from the Scripture. After the following service, they all went forward to confess faith in Christ. Forty years later, some of those kids are now in the ministry, others are serving in leadership positions at the same church. The Holy Spirit did that, not the Sunday School literature. But, as you note education is important, too … except on that Sunday, God had something else in mind.
Ever heard of the term “Bought and Paid For”?
“Pay to play”?
“When coin in Tetzel’s coffer rings…”?
“Everybody’s got his price or a man like me couldn’t exist.”
— Howard Hughes
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