In this 2012 natural color mosaic taken by the Cassini spacecraft, we see Saturn and its largest moon Titan. NASA/JPL
“Avoid lawsuits beyond all things; they pervert your conscience, impair your health, and dissipate your property.” Jean de la Bruyere
Pastors love the word “slander.” Unfortunately, most of them do not know the legal or Biblical definition of the word. I wrote a post outlining both in Slander and an Inconvenient Truth? So many pastors misuse the term. I wouldn’t be surprised to find that Hunt uses the term as many do to mean, “What you said was hard to hear, I don’t like it, and you have slandered or defamed me. The Bible says so.”
The Bible says no such thing. Slander/defamation is the knowledgeable telling of a lie, something that is untrue, in order to cause malicious harm to another. I believe that most victims of church sex abuse have been accused of “slander.” Those who have confronted churches about sex abuse, financial abuse, and other negative behaviors have been accused of “slander/defamation.” My former church accused me of slander while confronting some rather uncomfortable truths about my thoughts on the mishandling of sex abuse.
Who is/was Johnny Hunt? Here is the blurb from Wikipedia to make things easy. He does not seem to have an earned doctorate.
Johnny M. Hunt (born July 17, 1952) is an American evangelical Christian pastor, author, and former president of the Southern Baptist Convention. He was also formerly senior pastor of First Baptist Church Woodstock, in Woodstock, Georgia. He was the first Native American president of the SBC. He previously served as the Senior Vice President of the Evangelism & Leadership division of the North American Mission Board—the church planting and domestic evangelism arm of the SBC—speaking nationally to church leaders and congregants about sharing the Christian Gospel.
Go to this link to see how he is currently describing himself. Guess what? He does not have an earned doctorate, according to his own bio. So now I have to go back and get rid of all those Dr. Hunt titles…
What happened, according to the Guidepost investigation?
Victims and their advocates often struggle to carefully tell the truth. Calling such accusations “slander/defamation,” as Dr. Hunt is doing, seems outright wrong to me. So what exactly did he do? Let’s go back. Here is a link to the Guidepost Solutions Investigation Report. Go to Pages 149-161. Here you will find the detailed report of the incident. Here is a description of what allegedly happened on page 151.
Dr. Hunt pointed to the bedroom and said that he guessed that they didn’t need to go in there. She objected by emphatically saying “No!” In the living room, Dr. Hunt asked about ministry and church frustrations. Dr. Hunt slid closer while Survivor was telling a story of the stress that she and her husband were under at the church. He asked her more personal questions about her life – like “have you ever done anything like this before?” and “if she was wild growing up?” She was confused and not sure of what he meant.
Dr. Hunt then moved towards Survivor and proceeded to pull her shorts down, turn her over and stare at her bare backside. He made sexual remarks about her body and things he had imagined about her. During this time, Survivor felt frozen. Survivor said these were some of the longest moments of her life. She mustered the courage to ask him could she turn back over, and Dr. Hunt said yes. When she turned back over, she began to pull up her shorts. Dr. Hunt then pinned her to the couch, got on top of her, and pulled up her shirt. He sexually assaulted her with his hands and mouth.
Now read this from the Guidepost report. They did not find Dr. Hunt credible.
We included this sexual assault allegation in the report because the investigators found Pastor(ed. by Dee: husband of survivor) and Survivor to be credible; their report was corroborated in part by Mr. Blankenship and three other credible witnesses; and Dr. Hunt, while denying physical contact, does acknowledge that he had interactions with the Survivor, including on the condo balcony during the relevant time period. The investigators did not find Dr. Hunt to be credible in their interviews with him.
- Hunt denied physical contact with the survivor.
- Hunt was not found to be credible.
- The event in question happened in 2010.
What happened after the Guidepost investigation?
In the early aftermath:
Shortly after that, Mr. Hunt appears to have changed his story: Baptist News Global reported: Former SBC President Johnny Hunt admits improper conduct but denies abuse claims. He claims it was an awful sin, but it was consensual. The admission was addressed to “First Baptist Church of Woodstock, Ga., where Hunt served as senior pastor for three decades.”
Five days later, Hunt issued an open letter admitting to inappropriate behavior with the pastor’s wife but denying that it was a sexual assault. In one passage of the letter. He said on July 25, 2010, he allowed himself “to get too close to a compromising situation with a woman who was not my wife” which he described as “an awful sin” but a “consensual encounter.”
Hunt apologized for his actions, asked for forgiveness and said he was submitting himself to a small group for “intentional restoration.”
In the meantime, he was suspended as Pastor Emeritus of FBC Woodstock; I assume while he was carrying out his restoration process. In other words, he intended to return to the pastorate and continue his preaching tours. He then resigned from the NAMB and:
Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary President Danny Akin released a statement on Monday indicating he had begun “immediately initiating serious discussions with my cabinet as to what needs to be done in response to these allegations,” including disassociating Hunt’s name from an academic chair, an academic degree program, and “other items.”
Six months later
He gets fully restored! Baptist News Global reported Panel of four male pastors clears Johnny Hunt to return to ministry.
“I want to be very clear today that Pastor Johnny has been accountable to us and has chosen to remain accountable to us going forward,” Kyle adds. “In fact, I’ve spoken to Pastor Johnny nearly every day since all of this came to light. Most days I’ve spoken to him several times a day. Pastor Johnny has spent hours speaking to individual members of this spiritual care team, and we’ve all met together on multiple occasions.”
Kyle explains that the Hunts went through 16 weeks of “private counseling” 12 years ago when the incident happened.
At about the same time
He gets out of Dodge and joins a new church.
According to the Christian Post: Ex-SBC Pres. Johnny Hunt returns to pulpit after allegation he sexually assaulted pastor’s wife 12 years ago.
Johnny Hunt returned to preaching on Sunday (ed. Dee: 1/15/23) , declaring that God’s call on his life is “irrevocable.”
Hunt, who now lives with his wife, Janet, at a home they own in Panama City, Florida, made his return to the pulpit at Hiland Park Baptist Church on Sunday, where Senior Pastor Steven Kyle introduced him as “one of the greatest pulpiteers in our generation.” Kyle also revealed that last summer, around the time Hunt was suspended by First Baptist Church Woodstock, the former preacher and his wife had also joined the church as members.It appears Dr. Johnny believes that “once called; always called” no matter what! Can one imagine what he thinks pastors can do and still be preachers?
The relationship between Hunt and First Baptist Church of Woodstock remained unclear on Thursday. A representative of the church acknowledged to The Christian Post on Thursday that Hunt and his wife had moved their church membership to Hiland Park Baptist Church but only Morton would be able to say what became of Hunt’s suspension.
Hunt, who confessed to the congregation on Sunday that he had not preached in eight months, mentioned the allegations against him during his message. He momentarily recalled how devastated he and his wife were when the news of the allegations broke.
Read this next part carefully since it will point to the coming lawsuit. This was when I knew he was going to sue.
Some false allegations had broke against me. There were some allegations that weren’t false but the ones that were false were damaging. The others would have been easier to survive. I’m in bed and I’m awakened by the cry and my wife is weeping,” Hunt continued.
He said he asked his wife if she was OK and she replied: “They’ve ruined your life.”
In the meantime, he is back to preaching. Apparently, the current church to which he belongs, Hiland Park Baptist, has been brought before the Credential Committee for this year’s SBC Convention.
The here and now (as of 3/20/23.
The Roys Report posted Johnny Hunt, Disgraced Former SBC Pastor, Sues Denomination He Once Led.
In a complaint filed in the federal court for the Middle District of Tennessee, lawyers for the Rev. Johnny Hunt, a long-time Georgia megachurch pastor, admit Hunt “had a brief, inappropriate, extramarital encounter with a married woman” in 2012, but claims the incident was consensual and that it was a private matter that should not have been made public in a major 2022 report.
“Some of the precise details are disputed, but at most, the encounter lasted only a few minutes, and it involved only kissing and some awkward fondling,” according to the complaint.
Under the above heading, “six months later,” I noted that he claimed he had received counseling back when the event occurred. Did he ever tell anyone back then?
The complaint said Hunt sought counseling and forgiveness for the incident, which the complaint said was “a sin.” However, Hunt never disclosed the incident to the First Baptist Church of Woodstock, Georgia, where he was the pastor for three decades, or to the SBC’s North American Mission Board, where he was a vice president until resigning in 2022.
So, he said he “sought forgiveness.” Who forgave him? His former church didn’t know, so it couldn’t forgive him. Was it his golfing buddy? Does he think the survivor forgave him?
Pastor Johnny allegedly lost money in this deal, and he wants it back by suing the SBC and Gudiepost.
The complaint alleges the SBC and Guidepost engaged in defamation and libel, that they invaded Hunt’s privacy and intentionally caused emotional harm.
“The decision to smear Pastor Johnny’s reputation with these accusations has led him to suffer substantial economic and other damages,” according to the complaint. “He has lost (his) job and income; he has lost current and future book deals; and he has lost the opportunity to generate income through speaking engagements.”
She did it!
From the apple in the Garden until today, men often blame women, which Pastor Johnny is doing. Baptist News Global’s Mark Wingfield posted Pastor Johnny’ sues the SBC and Guidepost.
The lawsuit states: “Pastor Johnny has never sexually assaulted anyone. … He engaged in consensual, limited contact with the wife of an SBC pastor. The wife — not Pastor Johnny — initiated the encounter. And Pastor Johnny ended the encounter after a very brief period when he realized that his acquiescence to the encounter was a sin. … There was no assault or nonconsensual activity of any kind. … He did not initiate the encounter; he did not ‘force himself’ on the wife; and he did not ‘violently’ kiss her.”
He’s not poor but wants to make more and hopes the SBC and Guideposts will fund it via this lawsuit.
He also is tied to multiple businesses in an interconnected web of profit-making that ranges from retreats to books, to preaching engagements, to trips and music groups.
He and his wife own three homes, including two valued at well more than $1 million — one in suburban Atlanta and one a beach property in the Florida panhandle.
The lawsuit implies that he is not a sex criminal.
But including him in the Guidepost report was a diversion, he contends. “By focusing on the allegation against Pastor Johnny — an allegation by an adult woman that involved noncriminal conduct — and by then taking aggressive action against Pastor Johnny, the defendants sought to create the appearance that the SBC has learned from its previous mistakes and is now working to protect victims of sex crimes.”
Hunt got lumped in with “child molesters and other abusers,” creating the “false impression that Pastor Johnny is a sex criminal.”
The result, the lawsuit says, is that Hunt got lumped in with “child molesters and other abusers,” creating the “false impression that Pastor Johnny is a sex criminal.”
What does this mean?
- Who has the most money to fight this lawsuit? He is suing the entities instead of the lowly pastors who spoke out against him.
- Should courts get involved in a matter of church discipline?
- If so, then expect many more lawsuits, and that is what worries me.
- Could the deposition process cause more harm to the survivor? I certainly think so.
- Could this cause other survivors to pause before coming forward? Possibly.
- As a pastor, Hunt should bow out, putting the woman first. You know, WWJD? Oh, how He truly loved His people and was not excited about a bunch of the Pharisees.
- Hunt has gobs of money and is now living in a $1 million home on the most beautiful beach in the US. Yet he wants more money.
- If this was just about defending himself, he shouldn’t ask for money since he supposedly cared about the SBC.
- Could Hunt get a payout from the SBC and Guidepost along with an NDA?
- Johnny should have kept his mouth shut until he got attorneys. Instead, he appeared to flip-flop on what happened.
- Hunt has been an SBC insider for a long time. Could what he knows be revealed in depositions?
- I would be interested in learning more about his friendship with Ravi Zacharias and his use of the massage parlors.
- Did Hunt jump from the frying pan into the fire?
I am concerned about the implication of this lawsuit and the unknown outcome. I pray for all abuse survivors as we await the results and cope with the aftermath. Johnny has hurt himself in the eyes of many since his actions were first discovered. However, he appears to be a man more “out for the money” than “out for the little guy,” his formerly risen star in the SBC firmament will continue to sink lower and lower. How sad. What a way to end one’s career.
I will Tweet this now because Pastor Richardson will likely remove my response to his ridiculous Tweet.@ChristaBrown777 @wartwatch @BanjoAtheist pic.twitter.com/bLsKlYt7Bb
— Todd Wilhelm (@ThouArtTheMan) March 19, 2023
While reading this post, it came to mind that this guy may have been part of the massage parlor deal with Ravi. Then there it was at the end of the post – the massage parlor connection. We know how that turned out with Ravi. Apparently, birds of a feather…
‘ “The decision to smear Pastor Johnny’s reputation with these accusations has led him to suffer substantial economic and other damages,” according to the complaint. “He has lost (his) job and income; he has lost current and future book deals; and he has lost the opportunity to generate income through speaking engagements.” ‘
***********
Nope. Johnny Hunt did that to himself, and he had every intention of keeping his behavior buried.
Why did he change his story???
Why isn’t he suing, or pressing charges against, his accuser???
“Six months later … He gets fully restored!”
Fits the timetable of multiple other failed pastors reported on TWW, where the “restoration” period ranged from 6-18 months (if my memory serves me right, Matt Chandler holds the record with a 3-month comeback!). They either self-declare “restored” or a small group of dudebros makes the announcement. Too often, such restoration is not accompanied by a display of repentance or the fruit of repentance such as recognition of their victims and restitution to them.
There are no examples in the New Testament of pastors who failed morally being restored to the ministry. Forgive them “if” they genuinely repent. Certainly. Restore them to the pulpit? NO!
“I would be interested in learning more about his friendship with Ravi Zacharias and his use of the massage parlors.”
Reminds me of grade school flash cards: “Which one doesn’t belong?” Pastors, evangelists, massage parlors … which doesn’t belong in the picture?
Jesus, “Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.” – Oh Church of Ephesus, where are you? Oh town of Ephesus, where are you?
Jesus, “Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” Oh Church of Pergamum, where are you? Oh great city of Pergamum, where are you?
Jesus, “So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.” Oh Church of Thyatira, where are you? Oh great city of Thyatira, where are you? Where are your children today?
Jesus, “Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.” Oh Church of Sardis, where are you? Oh great city of Sardis, where are you?
Jesus, “Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.” Wait, Philadelphia still exists though the name is changed. You mean that Jesus actually makes promises that He keeps?
Finally, Jesus, “So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent.” Oh Church of Laodicea, where are you? Oh great city of Laodicea, where are you? I quote Jesus, not myself. Choosing sin has consequences…
How many times is it going to boil down to something like the following:
“Oopsie, mistakes were made… we good?” And then: “No? Hush up, or you’ll hear from my attorney.”
It sounds as though he’s delusional. Perhaps the acclaim he has received as a “pulpiteer” for many years led him to believe that he is sexually irresistible, as well. I have read that it is not unusual for men to perceive any positive attention as an indication of sexual interest.
I wonder whether his wife is really on board, crying because “they” have ruined his life, or if she’s silently gleeful that he’s being revealed for what he really is.
I guess Johnny Hunt can’t accept that it’s time for him to leave the stage. I guess he did some good at FBC Woodstock, but he really should be ashamed of what he did in 2010 and go into seclusion. He has lost the right to talk to anyone about anything. He preached a revival at the Southern Baptist church I belonged to back in 1995, but I only remember about two things he said.
🙂
I have giggled about this same thing.
That reality interests me. He should be ashamed. I would be mortified. Does he not understand the existence of the pain of sex abuse? Does he not care? Something is missing in his soul.
By filing suit, Pastor Johnny is promoting the idea that he has a defensible position whether or not he wins the lawsuit.
I suspect there are thousands of SBC Huntites who will support Pastor Johnny no matter what. “So what if Pastor Johnny had a bit of problem keeping his pants on … he sure could preach!!”
Pure water cannot flow from an impure vessel.
Does he not care that he has given a lost world yet another reason to say “See, there’s nothing to it”? … Does he not care that he is shouting over the cries of the abused? … Doe he not care that whatever Hunt says drowns out whatever Jesus is saying?
So sordid, so byzantine.
“Pastor Steve Flockhart led the congregation to give Hunt a standing ovation.”
https://baptistnews.com/article/two-days-after-filing-suit-against-sbc-pastor-johnny-was-preaching-in-georgia/
… and the beat goes on
“He warned the devil is out to get and destroy Christ followers.”
https://baptistnews.com/article/two-days-after-filing-suit-against-sbc-pastor-johnny-was-preaching-in-georgia/
Here we go again … As Robert Morris would say “Praise the Lord, I’ve made Satan’s hit list now you know”
Flockhart seems to have walked a similar path in the past though more on financial (they overlap on the resume padding)
https://baptistnews.com/article/west-palm-megachurch-pastor-resigns-amid-debt-resume-expose/
The religious big cheeses, as a community, remind me of teenaged girls, all agreeing to pretend that their various self-images are absolutely for-realsies.
One is never more perfect in life than what is written in their resume (including pastors).
Something is missing in the soul of the leadership at SBC.
How many different “leaders” within the SBC have been compromised by stuff like this by either perpetrating it, condoning it, minimizing it, or covering it up and allowing it to fester by not removing it?
What a rats nest of depraved people that have in the past occupied, and likely even now currently occupy, the top levels of this organization.
It is apparently rotten to the core, otherwise we wouldn’t keep reading stories about these caricatures of Christianity.
I say caricatures, but the reality is that they do not resemble Christ in the least bit. As such, they are more like caricatures of evil since they seem to resemble evil more than Christ.
Sorry SBC, it takes more than right “belief” to actually make someone a Christian.
Related. I just saw on Twitter that yesterday, KSP posted that she is not returning to SEBTS in the fall.
https://twitter.com/KSPrior/status/1637896705554149378?t=k2D6OsqmNfSG0SaOYXnoUQ&s=19
I loathe the resume padding and fake doctorate touting that so many in Baptist/ evangelical “leadership.”
I am reminded of an experience I had with Bruce Ashford about 15 years ago. He was a newly minted Ph.D. (legit, though only from SEBTS) and found himself director of the missions center… because reasons. This was a fairly high profile position for someone whose ink was still wet on their diploma and so spent 20 months overseas in “Central Asia” – said in whispered tones for “security reasons.” I digress. My wife and I were in his office to learn about one of the partner programs the seminary had with the IMB and during the conversation I referred to him as “Bruce” like I had done when we were in classes together in the late 90s. BIG MISTAKE. He stopped me mid-sentence and said, and I quote, “It’s Doctor Ashford.” I didn’t particularly care for him before that incident and he did nothing to endear himself to me afterwards.
The Mean Girls Clique.
Just like that scene in The Bunker (or was it Inside the Third Reich?) where Bohrmann, Goebbels, and Himmler gang up on Speer and let him know that he will Never be one of their Inner Ring.
Just like a Mean Girls Clique in High School.
foster. I left off a word
And it isn’t even GOOD resume padding.
If they want to go into full Fantasyland about their pasts, why don’t they just rip off the all-time WILDEST example of resume inflation, Psalmanazar the Formosan Cannibal?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Psalmanazar
If you’re gonna do it, Go All The Way!
“That’s DOCTOR Ashford, You Lowborn Peasant!”
I wonder if he made his wife and kids address him as “DOCTOR”?
The subject has come up on this blog before. When it did, actual PhDs weighed in that the more someone (other than an M.D.) flashes around his title, the more likely the doctorate is a fake. (Or Honorary; not much difference.)
The topper was an account of an Honorary who made his wife and kids always address him as DOCTOR(TM).
Like Douggie ESQUIRE of Vision Forum, they sure do love their faux-noble Titles!
Like the Party bosses in the bunker in the first episode of Chernobyl.
Johnny Hunt’s son-in-law (daughter’s husband) was on staff at Pete Wilson’s church for awhile before Pete went down in flames. He left shortly afterwards. Just interesting.
Replaced by entitlement.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Among girls these days, part of the competition is for “suffering points”: whose parents are Literally Hitler, who has to actually put her dirty clothes in a basket instead of having servants locate them where she dropped them, who has been diagnosed with something high-status, etc. There’s no cachet in being a pretty average kid from a basically okay family.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
I mean, I can vouch that he really got a Doctorate. I was there when it was awarded and I read his dissertation (I got extra credit for something, I think). I mean, he could have plagiarized, but I don’t think he did. SEBTS isn’t really considered high academics, though.
However, the way they treated him at the time was like he had done his third or fourth doctorate, not his first. And it was the first time I saw New Cal nepotism in action for someone super young. That’s absolutely what was going on, then. After Akin, I think Ashford was the first to be put in place at SEBTS to fulfill the “revitalization”.
I mean, we all know they put young ones in because they think they can control them. Ashford probably thought he was a hotshot, but his overloads thought they could pull him by the nose. And it seemed like they did for a while. But like all their other hotshots, they end up falling because they are more ego than sense.
Definitely, not probably. I can confirm from personal experience
Burwell Stark,
I only met him briefly. But they talked about him like he was the third coming of Christ. It was kind of embarrassing, actually…
It is funny to me now, that I know that a lot of those baby hotshots were just little peons in the cogwheel, but they had no idea.
Narcissistic behavior … an unreasonably high sense of his own importance, belittle others to make themselves appear superior, extreme arrogance, lack of empathy, take advantage of others … very common among the New Calvinists.
She is probably in survival mode. Denial of reality can be a difficult coping mechanism to reject.
When I think of all the boys and girls, and men and women who were abused in SBC churches, by SBC leaders, who were belittled, kicked out, called hussies, etc. by leaders in the SBC and then this former SBC leader is suing the SBC for defamation!!!!!!
It is really too much for me to think about. It makes my head explode 🙁
Doesn’t get attention.
OTOH, a cop/detective/sergeant who worked for the school district said often LE can tell when a young person lies about child abuse, and when they are for real. Nowadays. He said every accusation has to be investigated and treated seriously, but the liars who hate their parents clog up the system when LE would rather be dealing with legitimate cases – where suffering kids actually need lots of help.
Even if Hunt is telling the truth (which I seriously doubt)…… and if he wins this lawsuit, it will definitely set quite a precedent for all pastors/preachers/church leaders.
It will say that there is nothing wrong with a married man getting all touchy-feely for with a woman-not-your-wife as long as she doesn’t put up a physical fight.
I certainly don’t have room to talk about the physical appearance of others, but….. Hunt is saying that she came on to him??? Please……. how long has it been since he’s looked at himself in a full-length mirror???
I resemble that remark! I was so ugly when I was born, the doctor slapped my mother. I was so ugly as a toddler, they had to tie a pork chop around my neck for the dog to play with me. etc. etc.
Scripture says we are not supposed to judge the outward appearance … but some folks are just so outward, it’s hard not to.
There is one who watches and takes notes.
One day there will be a reckoning.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
Piece of work.
Again, never judge a book by its cover. But some covers at Barnes ‘n Noble just do NOT scream want me, grab me, read me. They just don’t. Just sayin’.
Excellent point.
Ava Aaronson,
Yes, resources directed to dealing with complaints of, “My friend on the internet says her parents are horrible! She’s so abused!” are resources that can’t be directed at real cases of abuse.
I’m a legal proofread and I have proofread a few depositions dealing with sexual harassment (I proofread civil cases.) At least one lawyer was very condescending to the deponent, who was representing herself; and the longest deposition I ever proofed was a sexual harassment suit. You’re right, it is hard for an abuse survivor to do a deposition.
I obviously didn’t proofread my own comment before posting it!!! 😀
That must be so aggravating to LE who want to help suffering kids. I believe all accusations of abuse should be taken seriously and investigated, but like you say, it does “clog up the system” when people make false accusations.
Tina,
And (as happens with domestic violence and rape) the false accusations discredit the real ones.
Divorce attorneys even advise their clients (usually the wife) to accuse the husband of child abuse (including sexual abuse) to get custody, get more money, and get even. Divorce for Fun and Profit – another reason it’s good to be an InCel.
Don’t forget the child sociopaths threatening (and using) false accusations to get their own way”. I’ve seen kids who would do that without a second thought. South Park actually did an episode based on it (their Children of the Corn parody).
Reminder that in 2025, recordings of the meetings of the ‘Great Commission Resurgence Task Force’ will supposedly be released after a 15-year gag order.
[the committee appointed by then SBC President Johnny Hunt, that came up with the NAMB-centric scheme of taking more and more $$$ and responsibility away from from local and state Baptist groups]
Read about it here:
https://thewartburgwatch.com/2020/01/24/why-did-the-sbc-seal-the-records-of-the-great-commission-resurgence-task-force-for-15-years-2025/#comment-419626
And here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20100705021226/http://www.biblicalrecorder.org/post/2010/06/14/GCR-Task-Force-now-wants-15-year-secrecy.aspx
“14 June 2010
…the Great Commission Resurgence Task Force has announced it will lock up the record of its deliberations for 15 years”.
“SBC President Johnny Hunt originally promised that all meetings of the task force would be open to at least one representative of Southern Baptists’ press, such as a newspaper editor or someone from Baptist Press. Instead, all meetings were closed”.
“at various task force meetings a Baptist Press representative and reporters from Georgia, Alabama or Arkansas Baptist newspapers sat patiently in the hall, waiting to be thrown a bone, or at least get some quotes for a story about what happened during the meeting. Instead, you were treated to a ‘press release’ usually from Task Force Chairman Ronnie Floyd, who informed us that everyone was working hard, making progress, learning to appreciate each other and praying together a lot”.
“Now, we will not have access to their deliberations for 15 years. Will there be anyone left to care?”
New Cals could give the Saudi Royal Family or the Kims of North Korea lessons in Nppotism.
And POWER.
FEATURE, NOT BUG.
You expect anything different from God’s Anointed?
Long Prayers and all?
What is LE?
I’m terrible with acronym soup.
“ Don’t forget the child sociopaths threatening (and using) false accusations to get their own way”. I’ve seen kids who would do that without a second thought “
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Yep. I used to be a secondary ed teacher. A few of my former students are serving time now. No big surprise to me.
Muff Potter,
Law enforcement. LEO = law enforcement officer.
Who is supposed to be punished? Just one terrible, adulterous guy, his powerful supporters, his church, or the city where he lives? And on whose timetable?
This is the second time in a week that you have mentioned Laodicea. If God is going to punish a city for the sins of one pastor, will he again use an earthquake about 600 years later? Why would God wait so long? And what about the wars and earthquakes that preceded the birth of Jesus?
If some pastor in my town lies and cheats this year, how can I prevent God from sending an earthquake in the year 2600 or 2700? Why would I worship a God who exacts retribution in such a way?
Make it make sense.
Here’s a source about Laodicia:
“At the beginning of the first century BCE, Asia Minor was shaken by the series of wars, waged in its territory between Rome and the Pontic king Mithridates VI. Many cities, including Laodicea, suffered heavily as the result of these events. Laodicea quickly recovered from the devastation and Rome granted it the status of a free city. The golden era of Laodicea’s prosperity was between the 1st and the 5th centuries CE.
“… the information about complete abandonment [of] Laodicea at the beginning of the 7th century CE is contrary to the information provided by the Byzantine sources. Byzantine writers often mentioned Laodicea, especially during the reign of Komnenos dynasty, that is in the 11th and 12th centuries. In 1094, the city was conquered by the Seljuk army. In 1119, the Byzantine troops under the command of Emperor John II Komnenos [a Christian] and his military adviser, John Axouch, recaptured the city from the Turks. It was the first major military victory during the reign of this emperor.”
https://turkisharchaeonews.net/site/laodicea-lycus
Do they still pray long prayers when they foreclose on older widows?
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Unfortunately, one always has to be aware of that possibility.
Jerome,
It’s always been fairly obvious to me that the leadership was heading away from autonomous churches to centralized authority. I wouldn’t be surprised if one reason NAMB has been so heavy into church planting is that they require a contract which can reverse the buildings and financial holdings of the churches into NAMB’s power in exchange for the funds to start the church.
Jerome,
I think the SBC is conflicted. Are churches autonomous, sort of autonomous, or super dee duper autonomous?
dee,
It all depends on who’s who, and who’s doing what, and who’s being accused of doing what ……….
Sounds like a plan. Follow the $$$.
Friend,
All I did was quote Jesus. You appear to be having trouble with Him and His words. I cannot help you there. FYI, when I did the original research some years ago wondering what happened to all 7 of these churches, five of which are told to repent or else and 2 are not, I found a website specializing in the history of these 7 cities. In it I found pictures of ruins for the five that were warned: no churches after 1900 years because there is no towns. I found pictures of the two that were not warned including the reality is that one of those has become a very large city. It made me think of Ai and other towns you can find in the Old Testament that God pronounced judgment on. God did speak curses to some of those towns. The ones He said would never be rebuilt have not.
One of the reasons I did the research is because I wondered what God meant with the first church in the passage “I will remove your lampstand.” Jesus called His church a light on a hill not to be hidden, hence a lampstand as a symbol. Removing that is a symbol is actually pretty easy to understand. That phrase is not used again but one way to interpret the whole section is that the same threat is implied to these other four churches that needed to repent of something. When I saw the pictures of the ruins I had my answer as to what Jesus meant with His threat. And the fact all five are gone suggests that none repented to Jesus satisfaction and the removal of the lampstand was such that there would never be anything called a church in those locations. Reality is what it is. You can be angry about it if you want but reality does not change just because of someone’s anger.
Remember this is Mr Jesperson.
Remember three years ago?
When COVID was God’s Wrath on our Laodicean Church?
I shall let him speak for me, in his comments both here and at Warren Throckmorton’s:
Agreed with all of this, but when I saw Jesus for the fourth time He showed me what the next coming move of the Spirit was. It is being quiet before God and experiencing and receiving the fear of the Lord in our hearts. My level of this is simply inadequate, even though I appear to be much more concerned about this than most Christians I meet. In a time when many Christians are more concerned about presidential and local politics, who will be their next leaders and whom will ultimately win the offices, I am much more concerned about what God is doing in the world. I think the latest round of judgment coming as correction has started. Just look at what COVID-19 is targeting:
1) A “church” in Korea is the epicenter there where the head pastor claims to be Jesus incarnate, and there is now a murder investigation against this man for not cooperating with the authorities.
2) The centers of Islamic worship in both competing schools of Islam have been effectively shut down. It appears that the worship of Allah in Qom has actually spread most of the disease in Iran.
3) A careful look at other places and regions are equally fascinating for plagues are certainly a historic biblical means of judgment that God has used before.
I have personally seen a holding cell in hell for those who claim they are sheep, but are actually wolves or goats. Beyond mere human justice what is coming to him very soon is certainly very dreadful. One day we will all see this either by being in that place or looking across the great chasm at it.
I appear to have picked up my own personal scoffer here. But the things I have mentioned are no laughing or mocking matter. The reality is that God allowed, with our forefathers, a WWI and WWII and a Great Depression and the 1918 Spanish Flu. He must have had a good reason for that and I fear that because we have not learned our lesson, nor heeded His ways overall, that we are going to see things like these come again. 90% or more of what claims to be Christian is simply not. But to scoff at the rest, what remains that is real, is not a good thing…
—–
For your daily Bible meditation: “So the Lord sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the time appointed; and there died of the people from Dan even to Beersheba 70,000 men.” – Just one of many such verses easily found with any concordance.
—–
Now this is not what any of you want to hear, but yesterday I was reading Zephaniah 1:2 “‘I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth,’
declares the Lord.
‘I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky
and the fish in the sea—and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble.’
‘When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,” declares the Lord…'”
So where there is no fear of God that is no wisdom for it cannot even start until the 101 class of “Fear of God” has been completed and passed.
—–
From the Revelation of Jesus Christ 6:7 “When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.” – Jesus opens a seal and a full quarter of mankind is killed in result.
I am not going to argue with you when you just ignore what the scriptures say.
—–
The corporate ignorance of Christians today is very apparent and your hardly alone unfortunately (here is just a few, there are more):
Num. 14:12 “I will smite them with pestilence and dispossess them, and I will make you into a nation greater and mightier than they.”
Duet. 28:21 “The LORD will make the pestilence cling to you until He has consumed you from the land where you are entering to possess it.”
Jer. 21:6 “I will also strike down the inhabitants of this city, both man and beast; they will die of a great pestilence.”
2 Sam. 24:16 “So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning until the appointed time, and seventy thousand men of the people from Dan to Beersheba died.”
Rev. 6:7 “When He (the Lamb) broke open the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature call out, “Come.” So I looked, and behold, an ashen (pale greenish gray) horse [like a corpse, representing death and pestilence]; and its rider’s name was Death; and Hades (the realm of the dead) was following with him. They were given authority and power over a fourth part of the earth, to kill with the sword and with famine and with plague (pestilence, disease) and by the wild beasts of the earth.”
This is because people calling themselves Christians believe more in post-modern philosophy then the Bible.
—–
My focus is on who the King: Jesus is, and what God is doing through this. Many “Christians” refuse to believe God still sends plagues and pestilence even though the Word of God clearly says He does. You find it early in The Book, you also find it right near the end with one of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse named Pestilence. Christians have got to find a Fear of God now. Denial of these facts are all about refusing that which is the very beginning of wisdom.
—–
Beyond that, if you want 20/20 vision of why what is happening is happening you need to meditate on Exod. 20:20. And by meditation, do not just read it and then quickly forget what it says. Instead, ask the Holy Spirit, which is real and listening, what this means for you and for yours. Expect an answer. The H.S. does not require a middle-man who is some celebrity and/or pastor in order to give you an answer.
—–
It will not just be churches that pay the price but that will certainly change the church landscape out there and put a lot of bars and nightclubs out of business. Only God could engineer something that would force these kinds of changes on people who would really not rather have them…
—–
The lack of the fear of the Lord is appalling in my day. I see it on all sides of the churches. This is highlighted by the fact that the most real place I have ever been is that cell in hell. It makes all the other stuff seam trivial in comparison.
—–
‘I will bring such distress on all people that they will grope about like those who are blind, because they have sinned against the Lord.
Their blood will be poured out like dust and their entrails like dung.
Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to save them on the day of the Lord’s wrath.’
In the fire of his jealousy the whole earth will be consumed, for he will make a sudden end of all who live on the earth.”
And people calling themselves Christians keep telling me that God does not get mad…
—–
And the capper I was looking for, from the comment thread of the 4/13/2020 post here at TWW:
In these days I have found a reliable litmus test for leadership, namely who is actually already a blind leader leading others who are also blind, as Jesus warned us so clearly about. The test is simple. Do they claim that God is not behind the plague?
Mr. Jesperson,
Thanks for sharing your research.
Maybe whatever is convenient for them at the time, for each situation. (Even though they would accuse someone else doing this as practicing relativism.)
I have no trouble at all in understanding the Bible’s words about love, mercy, justice, fidelity, charity, and so on.
However, I do not understand your apparent warning that God will wipe out a city 1900 years from now because of the behavior of one church today.
Laodicia is indeed now a heritage site, but you are wrong about “no towns”; Denzili is thriving, five miles away. Sardis is now in the village of Sart. Thyatira is in Akhisar. Pergamum is in Bergama. Ephesus is in Selcuk. You can visit the Basilica of St. John there, and stay at the Hotel Ave Maria.
JUST LIKE CALVARY CHAPEL!
Read “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God” sometime.
And LThe Calvary Road(?) – (“FOR GOD HATES SIN WITH SUCH A PERFECT HATRED…”).
That God of Wrath would do it.
“SMITE! SMITE! SMITE!”
Weaponizing them and Him.
Noted, thanks, I will.
Similar preaching happened in my church youth group. We teens were supposed to prevent God from destroying humankind by converting everyone from our parents to Red China—even as we hoped and prayed for the End Times. It inspired fear and a siege mentality. We could not stop anything, especially what was Foretold.
Any ideas on what has been hidden from Southern Baptists and others all these years? Anything under the umbrella of “The Great Commission” should be open and transparent to Christians!
You too, huh?
FIFTY years after the fact, I can attest that some of the damage is PERMANENT.
“ Any ideas on what has been hidden from Southern Baptists and others all these years? Anything under the umbrella of “The Great Commission” should be open and transparent to Christians! “
*********
Max,
I think they’ve had something slow cooking in the crockpot and they had a few ingredients to add, a few side items to prepare, and arrival of a few secret guests before they would be ready to put everything on the table.
Perhaps they figured 15 years would be sufficient time for Al Mohler to completely Calvinize the SBC and be crowned with a lifetime coronation as SBC Pope.
Friend,
Mr J, and Friend,
There are in most instances towns. But there are no churches because foreigners have to stay in hotels and not talk to locals (a regular visitor to that country told me). “Twice a stranger” by Bruce Clark explains the Treaty of Lausanne as only part of those events (contemporaneous with the events that shaped my family).
The fulfilment in contemorary institutions happened some years back, charismatic / pentecostal / new apostolic churches are functionally cessationist just as evangelicals have no gospel. Bentley and Wagner proclaimed world dominionism in 2008, locking up the heavens like brass in the world’s eyes.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Mr J, and HU Guy,
I’m glad this is now out in the open. Mr J, you are defeating what you think ought to be the point by your poor grasp and advocacy. God foresees the dangers and His intervention is relative in different cases. This is why others don’t understand you, as you stated incomprehendingly. The call of all the spiritual gifts is to supplication (the work of christians).
God requires subsequent and not prior works, 1.5 volt powered and not manoeuvring others. Our concern should be the integrity of fellow orphans and widows, by mutual trading, and that will be our only crown, what will get us through a difficult day in what way we can. This is done because Jesus distributed gifts unvetoed to children and invalids (unlike all other ascending gods) which was the only reason He came.
This is why moralisers from Macarthur to Johnson demoralise, back to Carl Henry and the cheapskate ecumenical Fundamental mongers, the Vatican circa 1946, etc. Prophecy is about application of Bible meanings in supplication (for instance when Daniel repented by proxy). Now, Mr J do you see where I am coming from (as you said you don’t, uncomprehendingly)?
Who would neglect so irrelevant a mini-salvation ???
Max,
fundamentalism, Calvinism, and women……….. there’s not much else, is there?
Michael in UK,
Thank you for your compassionate effort to sort through this. Greatly appreciated.
Today Christians are a tiny minority in Turkey. Many of them were systematically slaughtered over a century ago. Personally, I do not think God was punishing them through these brutal means, but I am a mere reader of encyclopedias.
A close relative of mine worked in Turkey for a year and spoke with locals daily. Everywhere, of course, one has to respect local etiquette and preserve the safety of locals. Careless friendliness can put people at risk in many different places.
The Armenian Genocide?
Headless Unicorn Guy,
That one, as well as the Assyrian and Greek ones, all around the same time.
Examples of persecution wiping out a population instead of making them better Christians.
Also the mass ‘exchange’ of populations between Greece and Turkey. After the Great War, Greece invaded Turkey (see Greco-Turkish War (1919–1922)) with accompanying atrocities by both sides. This ended with a large number of Muslims (approx. 500,000) in Greece being forced into Turkey and most of the Christians (about 1,500,000) in Turkey forced into Greece by the peace treaty that ended the war.
BTW I’ve found the people in Turkey quite friendly.
fried chicken?
Fried chicken’s got my vote.
Lloyd George caved into pressure from Clemenceau to spare the Ottomans when Adm Keyes was about to blast the Ottoman navy off the seas and go for Gallipoli silliness as a “substitute”. J H Newman was surprised Britain hadn’t been more neutral towards Russia in the 1850s (one could have “favoured” France passively). Manifest Destiny is a nasty British concoction. Why did Britain spend 500 years destroying Austria? If the whole of Ireland had been made a dominion in the 1880s there wouldn’t have been a precedent to carve south Asia along caste lines as the evangelicals’ proteges (good monotheists) were demanding.
In The Happiest people on earth Demos Shakarian relates how in his grandparents’ village a boy aged 11 with a greatly prayerful habit had an inkling the villagers should relocate to California which some did. (No matter what one might have made of later FGB MFI chaos.) That was after Leo XIII had invoked Holy Spirit.
Does Johnny Hunt teach people to teach their children to be leaders in supplication at that age? The boy wasn’t bearing any ambiguous F&M nor any great organisational “Commission”. He might have looked foolish. Some told others they were foolish to put any time into weighing this up.
Put-down nuns harassed HU Guy over similar things (that arose later than Leo’s time) instead of cheerfully and confidently calling on the prelates to listen. Bad leaders make out it’s the fault of little people things went wrong. Good leaders find the little people are their best assets. In his novel The Chrysalids John Wyndham relates how young characters get a gift of second sight after a nuclear blast, which they have to dissemble among adults.
I’m not sure what you are talking about. Possibly the Chanak incident in 1922 over the control of the Straits. The question was whether the British Empire would go to war with the army led by Mustafa Kemal (the Sultanate government barely existed by this point). France opposed but so did Canada (which had been asked to send troops) as did quite a few groups in the UK proper and also other countries and dominions.
Or are you suggesting the UK and its allies should have seized all of Anatolia back in 1918-1920 rather than just the passage between the Black Sea and the Mediterranean?
Going to war would have been bloody and the end results would probably not be dissimilar (other than a lot more people killed).
Max,
Muff Potter,
Ha! I used to be kitchen director. I can give a whole, long list. There’ll something in it for everyone. Our fellowship hall was packed for holiday dinners and homecomings ….. weddings, baby showers, dinners for special speakers and singers. Church-provided (kitchen director’s responsibility) special cakes, turkey, ham, bbq……. Saturday fish fries….trunk or treat…… ugh.
Dang It! I missed a lot of good singings and guests because of food!
Michael in UK,
That made no sense whatsoever.
You’re pretty obscure at the best of times, but this one was just Bizarre.
The most beloved member of any Southern Baptist church! More important than the pastor and worship leader … the most treasured gem in the safe … the hub around which all SBC life revolves. Potluck dinners are sacred, worshiped and adored.
I’d probably be first in line at the fish fries.
CynthiaW.,
Today’s Wondering Eagle post covers a similar subject:
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2023/03/27/how-american-evangelicals-lost-ordinary-living-by-wanting-to-be-a-hero/
You’d have to out-run me Muff! I may be old, but I can move when there is a plate of fried fish, hush puppies, french fries and coleslaw waiting on me!! Speaking of, I have my crappie rods ready to go.
Erp,
No, I’m looking back to 1915, the 1850s, etc.
Also, British christians are too preoccupied with image to seek God’s providential guidance (unawares) to policy, on numerous occasions since.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
The villagers concerned were baptists (heard of that denomination?)
Try The Chrysalids for size.
Your cherished Manifest Destiny was a bad English idea first!