#HappyNewYear from the star of the show that makes all this possible, as we begin a new orbit around our Sun, 93 million miles (150 million km) from Earth. Cosmically middle-aged and classified as a yellow dwarf with a core that reaches temperatures of 27 million degrees Fahrenheit. NASA
“Although I express myself with some degree of pleasantry, the purport of my words is entirely serious.” ― New Arabian Nights.
I want to thank Todd for covering for me this past week. My husband and I got Covid, and our symptoms involved fever, congestion, etc. Our doctor put us on antivirals which helped out. I was diagnosed on Monday after being sick for about a week with a cold and having two negative tests. My doctor said to test myself for four days after my husband tested positive. I thought it was overkill, but he was right. Our local health department gave us 24 tests to use at home. We sure needed them since most of the family locally became positive.
Years ago, one of my pastors (a good one) asked me why I wanted to post a letter that had been received by the church asking for my ex-communication. He said the church didn’t believe the letter, and even the LCMS spoke against it. I told him that it was important for others to see what sometimes happens when people pursue the truth and understand why it is essential to stand firm against this nonsense. As TWW readers know, I often post difficult letters that I, or those we write about, receive. I sat on the following letter for a few weeks but felt that publishing it would clarify a few issues. I do not doubt that leaders from Chapel Hill Bible Church will read this, and I hope it will help amidst the well-deserved turmoil they are experiencing. I did not seek this letter and was surprised when I received it. The writer said it was meant to be sent to me, not my blog. I’m afraid I have to disagree. I am the blog editor, along with Todd, and these comments are directed toward me as the blog editor.
I know this elder who is, in fact, elderly and appears to have a poor understanding of how to communicate effectively on social media. I will not use his name. He is a long-time elder at Chapel Hill Bible Church. The church has all these weird terms for their multiple elders, like sitting elders, standing elders, etc. I suggest another: “falling flat on their faces” elders. He helped. I have known him since we first attended, and I liked him. That was the old Chapel Hill Bible Church which carefully (and he was one of the founding members) set up its bylaws to avoid authoritarian behavior. Unfortunately, that changed the second time around with the advent of the Calvinist hardliner, Jay Thomas, who is, in my opinion, authoritarian by nature. My husband and I left; the rest is history as the church has changed for the worse, as many of those we left behind discovered.
Sadly, this elder, along with others, failed us and never attempted once to understand why we left CHBC quickly. We saved ourselves a lot of heartaches. But, we often wonder why none of that myriad of elders ever acted like elders and reached out to us. After all, we had been there for a total of 10 years. In particular, this elder is involved in a Christian medical community group to which my husband and I gave our time. So we would see him, and nothing was said until I noticed a comment that might have been from him in an EChurch, of all places. That is where those who wish can come to worship quietly, not put up with challenging comments, especially from church leaders. The people who visit those posts have seen enough pain in churches. The comment stated that I should post more positive things like that EChurch. I retorted that his statement seemed a bit passive-aggressive to me. Then I received this email.
Good morning, Dee-
I think you got my comment wrong, as it was not passive-aggressive but truthfully encouraging you to intermix joyous, positive items
along with your raking churches and persons “across the coals –not sure it is physically healthy for you !!(This contninues as a personal Christmas note which I have deleted) (Then) –We are on the same page in Him!!
So, let’s “rake this comment over the coals,” as it were.
“I think you got my comment wrong,
Given this comment alone, I’m beginning to understand what happened in the last year at CHBC. I wonder. Do churches train elders on how to be elders? Do they point them to resources in effective communication? An elder who wants to open an effective dialog with a person they have known for years does not start with the statement, “I think you got my comment wrong.”
Instead, an effective communicator who cared to dive deeply into what was going on would wonder, “Why do they think that? Maybe I should ask them?” Sadly, this is part of what happened at CHBC. The elders appear to have set up a “we vs. them” paradigm, and the “we” were right regarding difficult interactions. The church missed an opportunity when communications started with you may be “wrong.”
(“I think you got my comment wrong) as it was not passive-aggressive.”
Once again, this is a statement of fact by the person issuing it. This elder again misses the mark. I assume he wanted to communicate something, but he lost me with his absolutist statement, “It was not passive-aggressive.” If he genuinely cared about what I thought, he should have asked, “Why do you think it was passive-aggressive?” Again, this statement is a look into the failure of communication by elders at CHBC. As you will see, he demonstrates what appears to be a passive-aggressive statement in what follows.
“but truthfully encouraging you to intermix joyous, positive items.”
You should have done your homework if you genuinely cared what I write about on this blog. Since you appear to find EChurch@Wartburg a positive post, why do you say I should intermix more positive items on the blog? I searched and found I started EChurch@Wartburg sometime in 2013. That is nine years with 52 posts per year. I posted @468 EChurch posts during that time. So let me ask you a question. Are 468 posts not enough “positives” in your book? Did you not take a moment to figure that out? Was it not important to you?
Let’s go a little deeper. Do you know the type of reader you might find at EChurch? Many of them are the ones who have been poorly treated or abused by the local church. I started this because many people are so wounded by churches like CHBC that they turn their backs on the local church. I started this to give people a place they could go where they wouldn’t have the likes of Eric McKiddie disparaging them or Jay Thomas telling jokes that wounded them. The fact that there is a need for an EChurch is an indictment of the failures of the local church. Yet, you didn’t even wonder, for a minute, why I did this and have done it for so long. That is a shame.
“along with your raking churches and persons “across the coals.”
Again, this comment is a witness to the passive-aggressive nature of your note to me. You do not appear to have an understanding of what it is that I do. I cover stories of abuse in the evangelical and broader Protestant church. Are you familiar with the Ravi Zacharias stories? How about Sovereign Grace Ministries? How about what happened with Mark Driscoll? Why is the DOJ investigating the Southern Baptist Convention? Are you aware I wrote a story about a woman whose youth pastor abused her? Maybe you don’t believe that sexual abuse is rampant in churches. I left a Raleigh church where a Southeastern Baptist Seminary student abused over 13 young teen boys. What about John MacArthur? Whoops, I almost forgot John Piper. Does Thomas ever mention this in any detail?
If you care enough to read about what I do, here is an article from the Washington Post in which I was featured. The Crusading Bloggers Exposing Abuse in Protestant Churches: No one was paying attention — until these armchair investigators came along.”
Yet you use a derogatory term, “raking churches and persons across the coals.” The term “raking across the coals” is demeaning and shows little understanding of what I have accomplished in almost 14 years of writing. There is no love in this comment, and you know it. Sticking on a Merry Christmas doesn’t cut it.
“not sure it is physically healthy for you !!”
You are a long-retired GO doctor. Surely you know that you have no data to suggest that you know if I am physically healthy or not. Now that I think about it, you showed little interest in me in my ten years at CHBC, so what makes you think you know enough to make this statement? My PCP is quite impressed at my accomplishment so late in life. If you want his contact information, I will forward it to you, and you could tell him why I think what I’m doing is not “physically healthy” for me. I’m sure he would find your thoughts amusing. PS I love the little exclamation point after this statement.
“We are on the same page in Him!!”
Given what has happened to many members of CHBC, I paused at this statement. You might not understand what I’m about to say, but I know many people who are abuse victims will. When we confronted the abuse of young teens at our former Baptist church, the head elder (I don’t know if he was sitting, standing, or flat on his face) was speaking to my husband and said, out of the blue, “It’s not that we question your salvation.” My husband thought, “Where in the world did that come from?” One of those “aggressively calm” comments raised the question, “I’m not sure that you are saved, but I’ll say it nicely.”
Given the implications of this entire conversation, I can truthfully say that you sound like that elder who is “Not questioning my salvation.”
If we were on the same page, you would not have said some things the way you told them. However, I now understand why things have not been resolved at the church. The good intentions at the start of the church have ended on a sour note. I don’t care if Thomas tells you that losing a boatload of people is OK. That is something that Mark Dever says. Lose the ones who don’t count, and your church will be stronger, right? Not right. They end up on my blog, and many have trouble trusting another church and a group of elders. I don’t blame them. Read the 9Marks materials carefully. I have, and I’m not impressed.
Finally,
I would imagine that you have little idea how far this blog reaches. I have covered stories in Africa, Scotland, Australia, and more. Church abuse is rampant around the world. Recently, I received this from a pastor who lives in another country. He reads my blog and Julie Roys’ TRR.
I’ve had another thought about yours and Julie’s writings. I think they have opened my eyes to a gentler, kinder and more generous Christianity. Where there is room for the hurt, questioning and the broken. I realise I’m being influenced less and less by the “hard Calvinists”. I hope you’ve had a good Christmas and I wish you a very blessed and peaceful 2023.
I wish that CHBC, as well as you, had exhibited a gentler and kinder Christianity in your interactions with me and the others who have left. One thing is sure. I now see the underlying problems at the church and am so glad to be in a beautiful church that is kind, loving, and gentle. It reminds me of the OLD CHBC, and that is how I will choose to remember you.
It’s not lost on me that Chapel Hill Bible Church and 9Mark Dever’s Capitol Hill Baptist Church have the same acronym – CHBC. I continually think you are talking about one church when you are actually talking about the other church, but at the end of the day, there isn’t a whole lot that distinguishes one from the other.
First?
My preacher has suggested a way to communicate that he finds helpful: ask the other person to “tell me more”. I wish more Christians were like that, and I will include myself in the “more Christians” statement.
Todd Wilhelm,
Absoutely no difference now that they have a miniDever playing chief authoritarian.
This elder reminds me a little bit of the sheriff in “No Country for Old Men”. In that movie the sheriff is a decent guy doing his job….. but it is the job of 50 years ago and the bad guys are ahead of him at every turn. Perhaps this elder is in denial about his own church and “evangelicalism” at large and he thinks just sitting in meetings gets the job done.
To be fair I had some reservations about the blog early on. But I kept reading and the stories, while hard to believe at first, were well-documented. The critics show up and comment, but I cannot remember any time where someone responded with facts stating that the report was false. If you were lying about me on your blog I would email you and ask to talk or at least let me share my side. Has that ever happened?? I think at times you even reach out and ask for their side of the story before posting.
I do not need to “line up” with the editors or commenters on everything in order to believe the stories and be concerned. Sadly, this “raking over the coals” may be the closest thing to justice that many victims get on this side of Heaven.
Also….. my biggest pet peeve with wanna-be elders and deacons is when they cannot pick up the phone and call a family that left just to be friendly and check in on them. It does not need to be confrontational. People tend to appreciate a friendly call even if you do not have all the answers.
“ raking churches and persons “across the coals –not sure it is physically healthy for you !!”
What??? So is this “elder” saying that Dee is being a bad girl for telling the truth??? Is he saying a person would better off physically if he/she just ignores evils being committed in “God’s house”, puts on a happy face, and goes on their merry way??? Maybe like he does himself???
And this elder didn’t seem to care if Dee and hubby left, as long as they left quietly.
On a recent Frontline documentary about what’s happening in Ukraine, a reporter living in Kyiv was asked why she puts herself in danger to tell stories. She answered that she cannot NOT tell the stories, the truth about what is going on around her. It would be very disturbing and unhealthy for her to not tell the truth, she said.
Unfortunately, church people do not live with such conviction, such pure ethics, and such a healthy conscience. Most church people, it seems, cannot tell the truth about what is happening under their watch. They cannot NOT cover up the truth. The church has become the Hunting Ground or the Epstein Island for predators. No surveillance, no accountability, anything goes – and it does.
There’s a married with kids older pastor who just got arrested for violating minor girls in the church youth room on the church youth room couch. LE found pastor body fluids DNA on the couch, verifying the girls’ testimony, so the DOJ arrested him.
Thanks for the comment, George. We welcome differing views and always do our best to get the facts right. As a matter of fact, we appreciate being corrected. You may have noticed in my latest post I was wrong about IHOP and the denomination The River Church is affiliated with being the same. Our readers are sharp, which is cool.
I hope you comment again in the future.
Having a former elder come onto a blog and leave such messages comes across to me as certainly “Lording their authority over you.” If they wanted to have a real discussion they could call, or send an email asking to meet in person. There you two could have a real conversation. But leaving a public message to you stating a judgment that you are unbalanced and running a watchblog could be detrimental to your health comes across to me as a threat. There is nothing Christian in any of this. This is not the kind of leadership that Jesus displayed himself. Enough said.
Beyond that, I can understand that there are certain well intentioned individuals who could come here and wonder if the blog is not positive enough. People who have not been through the ringer where they got taken advantage of simply do not understand. Also people who have the gift of encouragement may not think Dee is balanced. Of course we could say the same of them as well if they never say anything that someone might consider to be discouraging. Such people would think Jesus is too negative with all of the negative comments He had about religious authorities.
Beyond that, can running a watchblog be bad for the health of some? Certainly. I once was a regular at another blog run by a Calvinist pastor with certain anger issues. His own testimony was that he kept trying to shut down his watchblog and then kept coming back to it. He has a heart condition, the same as his father, and it was what killed his father. His commenting with others on his own blog would get him so worked up that he would start having very real heart problems. I eventually left and have not returned because I tended to set him off and I did not want to be the one to literally kill him. So it definitely is a calling to run one of these. Some are suited for it. Others are not.
In my own case, I was noticing that I was getting too worked up myself on his blog and I recognized that I needed to cool it. It was healthy for me to leave. Also I have noticed that Bev has never come back to my knowledge. She used to post here too. When she left I expected her to linger in the chat section, but no. When she left she was gone. Made me wonder if she was having mental or health issues that required her to leave completely for her own best interests? I say this to point out these issues can exist and where they do they should be treated seriously. It appears that Dee and Todd do not have issues like these, but that does not mean that everyone can handle all of the very real negativity because there are snakes in positions of religious power. Letting the sun go down on your anger is not a good thing. Being able to deal with the cesspool without it getting to you eventually I would say certainly needs a certain something supernatural from God. I would never condemn anyone from walking away from this for health reasons. It is a real thing.
I also took what was written about the “positive” and the “negative“ in a similar way. No specifics, yet what is a blog supposed to look like that appears to have its purpose largely founded in trying to draw attention to potential and actual criminals, grievous wolves, hirelings, control freaks, cultic constructs, abusive power dynamics, and the like in church / institutional environments — all so that things can hopefully be stopped and people can be protected? It isn’t often likely to look like a stroll through the meadow.
During a church-related matter that would seem to fit in with some of the stories here, many who were responsible along with others who seemed to largely wanted nothing but happy, unanimous, smiling faces. Despite serious problems that called for serious attention, some seemed to take to casting hard questions based in reality as negative. Accountability, transparency, and oversight also fell into this category, complete with several evident distortions.
One of the chiefs evidently responsible reportedly encouraged the church to ‘speak positively and give generously’. Another who had been willing to have the conversations that needed to be had, but later appeared to worry if the questioners were being too negative, seemed to make an issue about negativity with those who continued to try to focus on proper accountability and oversight. To say the atmosphere became toxic seems quite accurate.
Having no part with the deeds of darkness but rather exposing them is not only not negative, but biblical (cf. Eph. 5:11). It also isn’t a process that usually involves saying one thing one time or posting a couple of paragraphs once, but often requires much follow up. Those who engage with this sincerely, seriously, and consistently have to prioritize what needs to be the focus rather than focusing on throwing bouquets.
That’s not to say that it isn’t good to aim to communicate needed rebukes with gentleness and respect. However, some seem to weaponize that concept with demands for either cloying dross with oodles of apologies and qualifiers in every breath, or not raising questions at all that might cause some unfavorable light to be shed, even if it’s deserved. Some subject matters will not be sufficiently served by being covered in the above and equating that to a positivity that would be acceptable to some.
Plus, mixed in with those calling for positivity may be those who would prefer a spotlight be off of a particular situation for various reasons. Let’s recall the Wes Feltner situation covered here, and the staffer who seemed to display certain priorities versus apparent obligations:
https://www.courierpress.com/story/opinion/columnists/jon-webb/2019/11/10/evansville-women-who-made-pastoral-abuse-claim-feel-shocked-empowered/2531955001/
“When Frey and Hendrickson found out about their simultaneous relationships with Feltner, they met with the lead pastor of First Southern at the time, Don Moore, and asked that he reveal everything to the congregation. Moore, who now serves as the pastor of Creekside Baptist Church, admitted on Friday that he refused to do that. He said he wanted to protect the girls, as well as the reputation of the church.”
Could some like Moore and Feltner possibly be on the side of positivity in terms of less stories that called the actions of those in leadership into question? That’s where we return to this particular instance, where there is reportedly somebody with a connection to a church that an independent report apparently indicates has had issues in leadership. There’s also reportedly the commenter’s having been involved in leadership previously, yet made a comment about positive versus negative content on a site like this.
It seemed an opportunity could have been taken to talk about the need for accountability in the particular church, one with which the host was involved. That obviously seems to be a valid need, even as discussed by a third party. Here’s another thing that could’ve been brought up to the church that could’ve had “positive“ results: shouldn’t every part of the body been able to read the independent report in full?
I’m pretty sure Dee and the others who have blogged here could’ve found other ways to spend their time. They could’ve gone the Christian Industrial Complex way to sell flowery and palatable things for wide dissemination, set themselves up as life coaches and church planters, financed dog washing stations in their houses after they were supposedly shown a vision, and so forth. If this period of time isn’t enough of an opportunity to at least consider that the motives might’ve been to bring up things that need to be addressed so that they can be addressed, what exactly do they have to do?
There have been occasions where people have been on the opposite side of perspectives, and I recall voicing my concern about something written because I thought it was appropriate to do so. However, that didn’t occur because I thought the motivations behind those blogging had irretrievably strayed beyond calling out things that are fit to be called out. As mentioned up thread, corrections can and have been made in appropriate manners, and that’s what can to happen when the priority is accuracy versus other priorities.
The song Clean Up Your Own Backyard comes to mind. If all the elders did that, there would figure to be a lot more positivity in the modern church versus out of control prairie fires, no? If they couldn’t do it because they perps took over, then they would have a potential existing place to expose the deeds of darkness for positive purposes and goals, no?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtSMhAZ32NI
Another utterly clueless elder, or just playing the part? Sadly it’s hard to tell. Either option scary though.
JDV,
“Despite serious problems that called for serious attention, some seemed to take to casting hard questions based in reality as negative.”
+++++++++++++++++++
i’ve often observed that in christian culture, to be a christian is simply to have faith in ‘faith’.
there isn’t room for hard questions about anything ‘christian’ or anyone ‘christian’ in the respective in-group.
being realistic (negative, having scrutiny) is considered a horrible thing, an affront, worthy of castigation and righteous gospel judgement.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
Exactly…. As we readers/contributors are well aware, the focus of TWW is church abuse, and especially giving “ear, or voice” to victims…. Time and again, we see “church leaders”, looking out for their own interests and trying to silence both victims and those that stand to support the victims. Should not this “elder” be concerned for mental and physical health of all the victims that are discussed on TWW?? Did not Christ tell us look after the “little one”?? In this case, to me, “little ones” refers to those that are oppressed ???
I always hate it when the ole boys pull out the “God’s going to get you!” card. Telling the truth usually doesn’t kill someone (at least not in America). “Truth is unkillable” (Balthasar Hubmaier). The ole boys hate it when the curtain is pulled back in Oz.
The Church of the Living God, and those that represent it, should care for victims not cover abusers. The Church (the real one) should encourage those who expose sin in the camp, not discourage them.
Okay, I am laughing my backside off.
This seems to be an occupational hazard for discernment bloggers. Even those who admit that what we write is true try to slide on by with the comment, “I am not sure all that negativity is helpful.”
Well, if there wasn’t so much negativity out there, then we wouldn’t have anything to write about. I’d have to take up knitting. Or tipping over baby carriages.
Happy new year to all!
CHPC?
More like CRAP.
She Uppity.
“HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY!
HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY!
HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY!
HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY!
“HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY!
HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY!
HAPPY! HAPPY! HAPPY! HAPPY! HAPPY! HAPPY! HAPPY! HAPPY!
HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY! JOY!”
— Ren & Stimpy
Just like the Temple Priesthoods of ancient Egypt.
NeoCal “Right of Parley”: Any church member who feels they have been treated unfairly, who question pastor/church belief and practice, or who have concerns about misbehaving of church leaders may request a meeting with church elders prior to their predestined excommunication.
George,
Thank you for this kind comment. I try hard to be truthful.
The elder could have spoken to us on many occasions. He and the others are just not interested unless and until I start writing about them.
Yep.
That s why I kept going with this blog. I couldn’t believe what I learned, and I wanted to share it with others.
Ditto.
He sent an email to my blog account, not to my personal account. It became fair game.
JDV,
Great comment.
They don’t give a crap. If he was concerned about my health, he should have called us ASAP. He doesn’t now and never did.
I hadn’t thought about this.
But he Virtue-Signals his Concern(TM) and Compassion(TM) to everyone like any Good Little Sociopath.
There were 85 people who had problems at the church. They only cared about. protecting the authoritarian pastor and elders.
I’m surprised this elder didn’t finish off his message with the ultimate what-the-heck-does-that-imply spiritual conversation killer:
“I’m praying for you.”
Blog accounts ARE Public…
Eric, church leadership at that church was and is problematic. Bill and I got the heck out of there early on. I feel so bad for. some of the folks who stuck around. They tried so hard.
Don’t you know that Witch-Man and Hexerai in Appalachian and PA Dutch Lore ALWAYS use their Familiar Spirits (Supernatural Beings under their control) as their Personal Enforcers/Attack Dogs, siccing them on anyone they don’t like?
(One of the main uses of this is to extort money, goods, and probably sex from their victims – Gimme What I Want or I’ll send them after you.)
Looks like these “old boys” think they “know more than how to bake bread”.
“TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!!!”
— Benny Hinn’s go-to verse whenever he got caught
You mean a Show Trial before Liquidation?
They sure do.
And when they can’t hide behind their smug wall anymore, they threaten that the big Kahuna in the sky will get you and your little dog too!
This message is in church speak.
Translated into English it means, ‘Stop publishing stuff we don’t want you to or you’ll get ill’.
You haven’t indicated that it’s a threat as such but it’s certainly verging on an existential or ontological threat to your health if you don’t step into line and cover up.
It’s a variation of the blame response where it’s the fault of the person revealing what’s going on, that the church has been brought into disrepute. The next step is to say that it’s hate speech because you only publish negative stuff.
The elder needs to re read the NT, especially Galatians. He seems a tad bewitched.
But here’s the deal: Jesus came to save sinners, no strings attached. (Hint at the scope–all are sinners.) He flat out told us not to bow to those thinking they are in spiritual authority over us, and gave all of us the work of the church.
So we think we can outsource the work and the payoff for the hireling is we let them be in spiritual authority over us.
They are not, and we partake of their sin when we bow to them.
Folks are getting wise and while joyfully following Jesus dumping the outsource dude bros and they are getting mightily miffed. WHO CARES?
And for the record, telling you he was not passive aggressive when he was IS gaslighting and abusive.
Block his acct!
Instead, the big guy in the sky is hard on ‘their’ heels.
I have a friend who was a long-time member of a “traditional” (non-Calvinist) Southern Baptist Church. He directed the disaster relief team for years, responding to natural disasters around the country. His wife was director of a local mission outreach to the poor. They love the Lord Jesus and served faithfully in their church for decades, giving, teaching, loving others. He, for years, visited other churches in the area and occasionally walked across the street to an Assembly of God church to be with friends there during a worship service. When the New Calvinists took over the church by stealth and deception, he was called into a meeting with the pastor and elders to explain why he chose to visit other churches on occasion. Since he saw no problem with this, he didn’t try to defend himself. He was excommunicated. Jesus wept.
I laughed when I read this. That is too perfect.
When we left our church, along with about 30 others and 2 elders, we asked one of those elders who was a close friend why he didn’t warn us about what the pastor was up to? One day he was just not at church and a month later we were asking him why. He still wouldn’t say because “he doesn’t gossip.” So few know the difference between gossip and warning others/equipping others with the truth.
SBCvoices
https://sbcvoices.com/the-insatiable-desire-of-christians-for-scandal/
Thoughtful article actually. Gotta admit; church scandals = clickbait
“That’s an awfully nice blog ya got there…”
Yes, sad isn’t it … that the average churchgoer won’t stand up to this stuff. See something, say something is not gossip. TWW, and other Christian watch blogs like it, are on a mission to inform and warn … gossip is not their agenda.
Y’know, I don’t respond well to threats. I mean, seriously, what else is it?
hard to be ‘happy-clappy’ when people who have suffered write to you and share their experiences with you . . .
in the faith of Christ, we are there to ‘bear one anothers’ burdens’ and that means an ACTIVE role in being ‘with’ those who have suffered and are suffering:
to give them a VOICE in which to speak and share and warn, to tell them it’s OKAY to speak up and that those who tried to silence you WERE ‘the bad guyz’
Dee, hope you feel better soon. Keep giving victims a chance to speak up which is a needed part of their healing process. God Bless you for your active caring on their part!
In future, here is some advice to consider from another ‘old guy’ who lived a long time ago, Walt Whitman:
“re-examine all you have been told in school or church or in any book, and dismiss whatever insults your own soul”
Dee, thank you for the work you do to help so many people.
That’s how the words struck me.
More generally: in an authoritarian congregation, such language can be felt as something more than an individual threat: “If any one of you defies our authoritah, your health will decline, and everybody will know why!” Goes along beautifully with blaming people for every misfortune that befalls them. Ascribes supernatural power to elders, echoing the story of Ananias and Sapphira. (Again, the above is more general, not specific to Dee and her situation.)
Members of NeoCal churches live under a constant threat of discipline, shunning, excommunication. For the life of me, I don’t understand why folks subject themselves to such authoritarian religious abuse. There is freedom in Christ … Jesus will have nothing to do with such games.
When I read what you wrote in the main article what came to my mind was a mafia enforcer going up to someone who wants to blow a whistle and tell them that if they follow that course that something very bad might happen to their health in the not too distant future. This line has been used many times in movies and tv shows. It is classic. It has no place coming out of any Christian leaders mouth. Period. But I think I have even less tolerance for this sort of thing than you do. Jesus called such leaders snakes and sons of Satan. I can do no less. Being like Jesus is what it is all supposed to be about, is it not?
It’s all about their institution.
“I knowe on whiche syde my breade is buttred.” – John Heywood, mid-1500’s.
JJallday,
“He still wouldn’t say because “he doesn’t gossip.” So few know the difference between gossip and warning others/equipping others with the truth.”
++++++++++++
as far as christian brainwashing, h0rsesh|t, and other nonsense is concerned, what’s the dividing line between christian culture and christianity itself?
at what point do we say, “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”
I actually don’t think this elder intended his words as any kind of implied threat. Theologically, he is not of the “God will get you” bent.
The Occam’s razor explanation would be to interpret his words about Dee’s health as simply an attempt to bolster his arguments for his case that Dee “shouldn’t be so negative.” Clearly, it bothers him when she blogs about his church. But I hope he will also take seriously the comments that those kinds of words can be read as a threat and try to understand why that might be so.
It is possible that he came to the blog and the E-church was at the top and he was actually surprised and didn’t realize Dee does those every week. (And she is right that he should have been “quick to [research] and slow to [post]” to paraphrase James 1:19.)
If he had researched, I think it would be clear that she puts a lot of care into faithfully providing those offerings, even when she is sick, on vacation, or caring for sick parents.
And if Dee is negative about sin in leaders of God’s family, so were Ezekiel, Isaiah, Paul, Peter, & John, not to mention Jesus.
To the elder himself:
It is hard to believe that following the command in Eph 5:11 to expose the deeds of darkness rather than to participate in them has a negative impact on health. I believe that is what Dee does on this blog.
However, you are certainly right in your point that some “negative” things are associated with poorer health outcomes. People with positive views on aging tend to live longer than those who have negative associations with aging. And there is a large body of research that children who experience abuse are much more likely to develop serious disease earlier in life than the general population as one of the many negative impacts of that harm.
Have you thought about the potential for negative impacts on the spiritual, mental, and physical health of people who experience harm in their churches?
As a physician, you spent years learning to “bind up the injured” and in a teaching hospital, it was expected that you would continue to learn throughout your career. Likewise, no one expects you to already have all the answers as a shepherd charged with “binding up the injured” sheep in your flock . (Ez 34) . However, a willingness to listen and a humble openness to growing as a shepherd in your knowledge and skill would be reassuring to potential “patients” aka “injured sheep.”
Many were longing for that from their elders at CHBC, and initially believed that they would receive that. It is sad that many of those have now given up hoping.
If you or any others are still open to growing in understanding, a resource that you might find to be helpful is TGC’s “2022 book of the year” in the ministry category, “Bully Pulpit: Confronting the Problem of Spiritual Abuse in the Church.” It is written by Michael J. Kruger, the president of the Reformed Seminary in Charlotte. The theology of the author aligns with CHBC’s and the book is obviously respected in TGC, a group with which CHBC has aligned itself. It might be a particularly useful resource in your church since there shouldn’t be theological “stumbling blocks” that distract from what the author is saying.
https://store.thegospelcoalition.org/tgc/products/14931/bully-pulpit
(Maybe buy in bulk?)
Recent communication from the elders seems to indicate that the elders have “closed ranks” and so this suggestion might hit a brick wall. But I still have an ember of hope that a small ray of the light of truth could penetrate that wall and healing happen at CHBC.
May God give you courage. Shalom.
The Merriam-Webster word of the year for 2022 is applicable to the modus operandi of abusive churches: Gaslighting.
They try to convince sheep that leave that we are the unhealthy ones. They fence us from the Lord’s Supper for not being a member, while they are the cause of our leaving. They think we don’t love the church when it is they who lack love when they mistreat the church homeless.
I have noticed in fact that many of the officially implied-to-be-unfashionable fads or superstitions from the 1980s and 1990s have been unspokenly swallowed whole. If we keep church leadership in our prayers, God will make sure the church will work better than it “ought” given some double mindedness in belief that is around.
I’m rereading Child of Woe by Maury Blair (pubd Marcus Publishing Company in Ontario), he had been a badly abused young person. He led most of the rest of his family to the Lord via a kindly and truthful church and God provided in their extreme circumstances.
There are many things close to me that don’t add up (and the world is now in crisis for everybody), so that testimony is giving me ideas. I wouldn’t be a believer now, if I hadn’t seen through the prevalent fallacies I was exposed to.
Gotta admit, the current state of a chunk of Christianity = dumpster fire
Jack,
As someone that grew up in independent Baptist fundamentalism ( at least through my private high school), I do not consider “church scandals” as “clickbait”…. I consider it validation of a “inner voice” that I had in my “fundamentalist” years, and subsequent “evangelical years”…..
Namely, preacher boys hammer and hammer on all the “evils” of the world, and “worldly” behavior, by us “pew peons”, to the point that we should “question our salvation/election, etc”… yet in so many ways, many of these “preacher boys” behaved, in many aspects just like these “worldly ways”…they so demonized……. Those of us that like to “think” and reflect, maybe just alittle on all of this can be, and are, in many cases ostracized if we EVER publicly expressed this..
I find this “ostracism”, or worse, particularly vexing when one considers all of injunctions of Christ to be “ the light of the world”, “hunger and thirst for righteousness”, “love your neighbor as your self” , etc, etc….
Max,
Yancy’s book, “what is so amazing about grace” hit me years ago in a similar vein.. so many in “the church” in so many different flavors (denominations) still try to control by rules/guilt/etc…. Grace does “set us free”.. but then, preacher boys lose their “control” of us…. Just objectively look at the behavior of so many of the “bad boys” highlighted on TWW… they are all about “controlling people”… sigh..
The Christian experience really all boils down to whose yoke are you willing to put on.
“Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, following Me as My disciple, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest, renewal, blessed quiet for your souls. For My yoke is easy to bear and My burden is light.” (Matthew 11:29-30 AMP)
Too many church folks submit themselves to illegitimate authority by putting on the wrong yoke. When a “man of God” comes at you with their version of the gospel, rules, regulations, teachings and traditions of mere men, membership contracts, etc. … don’t put it on! There is freedom in Christ … live like it, believer!
“You have a saying: I’m Praying For You.
We too have a saying: PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS!”
Outside the Christianese bubble, isn’t that called Putting a Hex on You?
It’s fine when the glorious leaders do the hexing. Not so fine when they accuse mere mortals of the very same thing.
I rather think that Jesus’ reaction to so much of what is happening in the church in this age would be even more emphatic and pointed than his reaction to the Pharisees since what is happening in the church is arguably worse by several orders of magnitude than the Pharisees behavior.
Especially given that the abuse being perpetrated is being done under the cover of “in His name”.
The elder doesn’t need to be concerned about Dee’s health due to “negative content” which in her case is just truth telling – which we are supposed to do. They are in a much more precarious position than the perceived place they have of Dee’s position.
The elder should, instead, be far more concerned about the spiritual condition of the leadership (the elders) due to the continuing negative behavior that seems to be endemic within them. That is something to truly be concerned about. Their behavior has, and is, causing actual, real, and tangible harm to the church body.
The elders have utterly failed in their duty to shepherd and protect the flock.
Afterburne,
Ah, but here is the”rub”
They do not think their behavior is “negative”…. These type of leaders see themselves as being the “righteous ones”, or so it seems to pew peons such as myself…. Do you think people like Driscol, Johny Mac, Dever, ever think what they say and do is not “righteous”?? Maybe it is just my “hang-up”… but they all come across to me as ubber arrogant.. “like I have ALL the correct answers/positions, and any “negativity” is YOUR problem not being able to deal with the TRUTh that I alone know!!
We once left a Baptist church service never to return. The subject had been stewardship, which was twisted into tithing even on value you receive when your insurance company pays a medical bill, or value received if you get your food at a commodity give away, or if you receive rent assistance, etc. The threat was “don’t come crying to me when you don’t completely tithe and your little kid gets leukemia.”
Of course he carefully explained he did not tithe on his living in the parsonage or on his insurance the church paid for or his retirement allotment since he “wasn’t receiving the benefit of it right now.” Living in the parsonage was said to be a net loss to him, as he was not building equity in a home.
Rot and tommy rot.
linda,
Ah, but I’m sure they had excellent sermons lambasting the scribes and Pharisees, jots and tittles, etc.
And yet they’ll claim that their church polity and the way they do things is fully sanctioned and even demanded by Paul’s epistles.
There’s been an outbreak of that in the American church.
If you twist and torture Scripture, you can get it to say anything! Paul didn’t say half of what some preachers say he did.
You’re not surprised are you?
Theirs is a cruel and petulant god who delights in unfair punishments.
That is an understatement.
That elder really needs to be careful what he posts. The first thought I had was he was threatening you with physical assault/murder. I can’t be the only who’s mind that crossed. On second thought I realised it was unlikely. Still, it was an unwise and unuseful stayement.
Thankful for that book recommendation, Michael. Sounds like it would be a hopeful one to read.
Yes!
When I pray the Lord’s prayer and come to “Hallowed be thy name,” I pray for the ways his name has been used in unholy ways and ask that He would cause it to be hallowed again.
It’s using the Lord’s name in vain .
And the elders will have to stand before God and give an account of how they’ve shepherded sheep. Ez. 34 makes it especially clear how God feels about beating up sheep for your own benefit. Even if you are not one of the ones who directly perpetrated harm, an elder is still benefitting by not believing sheep. They benefit from the continuation of their “church” life as they would like it to be. They benefit from being among the inner circle.
I truly believe many are deceived or have deceived themselves, and therefore don’t see what they are doing as wrong. (Others know full well and benefit from the support of those determined to see no evil and hear no evil. When someone speaks of the evil, though, it threatens that comfortable status quo. Trying to get the person to stop talking is one way to get back to the comfort zone.) They will, nonetheless, have to give an account for each time someone offers them a chance to repent by speaking truth in their hearing. Each time they choose not to believe but to call it a “misunderstanding,” etc.makes repentance less likely. So yes, you are exactly right that the elder should be concerned about his own spiritual condition and that of the other leaders. Dee is speaking truth. The truth can be painful but it is one of the names of Jesus. “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.”
Wow.
Putting a Slow Death Hex on your kid because you didn’t fork over the $$$ when the Witch-Man demanded it.
That’s beyond Hexerai.
A god who makes Satan into the Greatest Hero of all time.
Because he dared to stand up to that cosmic monster.
How convenient that Commandment has been redefined to mean cussing and only cussing, Eh, My Dear Wormwood?
Nowhere do we corrupt so effectively as at the very foot of The Enemy’s Altar!
How convenient is right. They don’t need to ask if their actions reflect whether they are living in a manner that honors or reflects the values of Jesus when, as Steve Taylor put it over 30 years ago in the song “Bad Rap”, “convenience is the law you keep”.
It sure isn’t convenient to recognize, much less call out, behavior that is sinful (uh, unfavorable to their tribe).
Actually, I think Steve Taylor had it wrong, protection is the law they keep, and that at seemingly any cost.
In one of my movements, if we dropped out, we were liable to become potatoes in the stew (instead of meat). At least they didn’t mention pumpkins.
The same movement also pointed out that if we dropped out, we would “find ourselves in crisis”. Many of those that hadn’t dropped out were also “in crisis” which had to be gleefully highlighted.
“A Former Elder’s Message Regarding My Blogging: I Need to Be More Positive or Risk Not Being Physically Healthy”
Let’s face it dee, the guy threatened you with wrath from on high.
Aren’t you glad that the Almighty doesn’t do the bidding of every Tom, Richard, and Harry?
Like a Conjure-Man threatening to Hex you (with his familiar spirit as Enforcer).
Remember:
In Religion the Supernatural Force/Being is the one in charge.
In Magick the mortal Sorcerer is the one in control of the Supernatural Force/Being.