Aurora over Northern Canada-NASA
“Culture hides much more than it reveals, and strangely enough, what it hides, it hides most effectively from its own participants.” Edward T. Hall
We moved back to North Carolina after spending ten years in Dallas. I want to represent my church membership for the next 22 years. First, there were the years of wandering in the post-evangelical wilderness.
- The first stop was at Providence (SBC+Reformed) Baptist Church, where a SEBTS seminary student allegedly molested almost 30 boys. (@7 years) FAIL!
- The second was at the Church of the Apostles, an Anglican church, which wanted us to “reconcile” with the previous pastor while, at the same time, having a “harmless” 30-year pedophile wandering the church. (@ six months) FAIL!
- The third was Chapel Hill Bible Church which, after a good year, ditched the interim pastor and hired the Calvinista pastor. (@4 1/2 years.) (We were members in the 1980s for 5 1/2 years.” Success the first time around. FAIL the second time!
- We wandered around Chapel Hill and couldn’t find a church that worked except The Gathering, which we liked, but it was too far away from our home. ( @2 years) Not So Bad!
- Then we spent a year or so at Hope Community Church. We left before the pastor was discovered to have had an affair. It was too seeker-driven for us. (2 years) FAIL!
- Finally, we found our current LCMS church and finally found a home. SUCCESS!!
The continuing saga of Chapel Hill Bible Church and the GRACE report.
I have written six posts about the current “state of the church” at CHBC. My husband and I knew from the get-go, during our tenure at the church, that problems would arise from hiring a die-hard, authoritarian pastor. We were correct, and I am grateful we got out when we did. I am sure I would have been disciplined had I remained and continued to write at TWW. This past year, a few elders complained, which caused me to be unable to serve on my community board due to a “conflict of interest.” Ultimately, it freed up my time, and I can still support the board. Those elders should be ashamed of themselves but they were chosen because they would play ball with the pastor. (“Wherever I go, so will you go, right?)
The members, who paid for this report, will not be able to read it. They will get a synopsis.
A new Twitter account, @CHBConfidential, has appeared and is documenting the antics of the elders and pastors who want to keep this report a secret. I spoke with a few folks, and they do not know who is behind it. Given that over 80 people signed a petition and four elders walked out of the church, CHBC has a severe problem.
Listen to the following talk by one of the elders. It is most disturbing to me.
Why pay $50K+ for a “cultural assessment” of the church following an abuse scandal and keep it a secret? https://t.co/RBleBOTBe7
— CHBConfidential (@CHBConfidential) November 8, 2022
- The elders commissioned the report.
- He forgot to mention that the membership paid for the report.
- The elders “received” the report.
- This means the members do not “receive” the report.
- It appears that he believes the elders are in complete control of this report.
- The members who paid for the report do not have any control over the report.
- The elders will not release the report in order to protect the church’s health.
- The elders want to “protect” the staff from harm (presumably, crazy members will harm the staff.)
- The elders did not say if they wanted to protect the membership from harm.
- The staff is hurting.
- He did not say that the membership is hurting; in my opinion, many are hurting.
- The elders affirm the pastors and church staff.
- The elders did not say that they affirm the church membership.
My former church is in trouble. The elders appear to protect the pastors and staff from the mistaken belief that the members can’t handle it and, worst of all, will want to cause harm to the staff. This is a church in crisis. Our country is now divided. It is sad to see a church divided as well.
The GRACE Report is received, and the elders get to read it, except they can’t take notes, pictures, etc.
Will they be stripped or cavity searched? Wanded? Are they patted down? Will they be required to remove their shoes and even their socks? It is my opinion that things have spiraled out of control at CHBC.
“… wandering in the post-evangelical wilderness …”
I’m reminded of the little boy who ran back into the house after playing, exclaiming “There are bumblebees out there!”
Warning: there are “bumblebees” in the church! The Christian experience should never include wandering in the wilderness … of church! God has delivered us from the wilderness. If you find church to be a spiritual wilderness, God is not there.
The church we left had paid to have a survey done and only Deacons and Deaconess could see the results. So many members asked about it. They had taken the time to take said survey, sat in on several meetings, but they couldn’t see the results. We fought but lost. Not our business they said. So yes, there is most likely something to hid in this report. Why people don’t get up and leave, and take your tithe with you, is beyond me.
Part of the problem I believe with people staying at churches with toxic pastors may be related to people not knowing the qualifications of pastors in the scriptures, if they don’t have a sacrifical spirit, are gentle, godly , possess the fruits of the Spirit then run to the exit and find one that does. According to scripture their not qualified no matter how many degrees they have. Another reason is it is hard to leave friends but I found out when I left my old church after 15 years that only one person really cared to maintain contact with me. So much for the friends I thought I had. I think a lot of church is just smoke and mirrors. I did find a church with real folks that love me and have been there for me, not perfect but very healthy for the most part. It was a journey. If a church cares more about the staff then the members then get out people.
Whatever is in that report must be really bad, worse than anyone even suspected. Which means that anyone who is in that church should run far away!
Frankly not surprised that it’s so hard to find a non-Calvinista church around there. So many desperate seminary students and graduates seeking positions.
I do miss the tea house, though. Wonder if it’s still there?
Where do you reckon they got the money to pay for the survey? From church members who dropped it in the offering plate. Thus, it ‘was’ your business.
Church leaders are to serve the members … not vice versa. The concept of servant leadership – the pulpit ministering to the pew with love, seeing them as valuable to God – has been drowned out by today’s self-centered pulpit. So, the “Dones” continue to grow in numbers … done with the counterfeit church, but not done with genuine Jesus.
And underlying that, the average churchgoer doesn’t read Scripture and pray as they ought … easy targets for toxic pastors and aberrant theology. Bad-boy church leaders get away with their deception because the pew is not equipped to detect evil in their midst.
It’s a plague on the land … the result of a generation of churchgoers who have forsaken God for the teachings and traditions of mere men … the 21st century church was an easy target for New Calvinism.
Truth.
Requiring elders and deacons to go to the church campus to read the report (60+ pages), supervised, with the inability to take notes or photos is absurd. Perhaps one of the leaders has worked in national security and they were doing their best to duplicate a SCIF? /sarc/
One practical effect of these conditions is blocking the ability of these leaders to process what they have read and to ponder and deliberate. People need to re-read material to really absorb it. How much more if it evokes an emotional reaction? How many of us when re-reading something later on, realize we’ve misread something the first time? When thinking about the report, no one will be able to go back and check whether they were remembering something correctly.
I assume that this top-secret protocol is to “protect the feelings of the leaders and the reputation of the church.” It will accomplish the opposite. I guess when you’ve circled the wagons that tightly, you can no longer imagine how it looks to people outside your church bubble. “It must be *really* bad!” “What are they hiding?” are inevitable reactions. I Tim 3:7 says that a qualification to be an elder is to “be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.” Well, the whole church SCIF thing pretty much blew that qualification. People are going to draw a negative inference, damaging the reputation of all of them with outsiders.
Men ordained as elders and men and women ordained as deacons were voted in by the congregation because they were believed to meet biblical qualifications which would include being “above reproach.” And yet these national security-type requirements first of all show that the wolves in charge don’t trust all their elders and deacons. They are worried, like an intelligence agency, about “leaking” and they aren’t sure that they have 100% loyalty. In this case, “leaking” would come from a biblical conviction that “the truth will set you free” or Ps 32 that a “cover up” of sin will result in God’s displeasure whereas confessing sin will result in God “covering” the sin.
But maybe they are not moved by obedience to Scripture and might instead be provoked to reconsideration by the political lesson from Watergate: “The cover up is worse than the crime.” The cover-up will certainly be viewed as a problem in itself by outsiders.
Biblically, the cover-up *adds* to the crime and will be totally ineffective before God. It doesn’t stand much chance of effectiveness before people either, since people who were interviewed for the GRACE report are free to tell their stories.
“He forgot to mention that the membership paid for the report.“
And they get this:
https://biblechurch.life/members-meeting
“Members’ Meeting: GRACE Report
Sunday, November 20, 4 pm
Sunday, November 20, 4 pm (Sanctuary)
“As announced by Elder Chair, Steven King, on Sunday, November 6, CHBC received the GRACE Final Report and Recommendations on Saturday, November 5. The week following, our various leadership teams, about 50 people, have been prayerfully working through the 64-page cultural assessment from GRACE.”
“We said this past Sunday that we would not work in haste, and we have since discerned that we need more time to work through the report and each of its recommendations.”
“Because of this, we are postponing our planned Members’ Informational Meeting by a week, from this Sunday, November 13, until the following Sunday, November 20 at 4 pm.
Thank you for your patience through this process, and we look forward to sharing more with you in the coming days.”
“REGARDING CHILDCARE:
We’re unsure whether we can offer childcare during the meeting at this time. Please check back on Tuesday, November 15.”
This brought to mind the situation in a church where I recall they were questions about how some finances were being spent. I recall that some of the meetings didn’t always have childcare, which of course would limit how many people could show up, get some level of information, and potentially weigh in and ask questions.
That information is found on their “Next Steps” page. That also links to a section on “membership“, which has a class November 20 in the morning. There is a two minute video called a plea for membership that references covenants, symbols, shepherding, etc.
It also has a link to something called 423 Communities, “a ministry for men, women, and teens struggling with porn and sex addiction.”
Let me see if I have this right: so people can get invited to become members and have a greater level of commitment to the church, and the same people/members can also discuss all manners of sensitive, personal information with the staff of this entity. In each case, they are supposed to be able to trust this staff along these lines.
Yet, when a report that may directly impact matters of staff stewardship, trustworthiness, and so forth, this entity may not share that report? They may instead choose to share whatever they see fit and not sure what they know – – which in and of itself could be problematic because of any potential conflict of interest that would not be revealed?
The “weirdness” continues…..
Jesus: Love God w/ your all, love your neighbor (orphans, widows, displaced, etc.) as yourself.
There are indications when a church has lost its way: pastors (or president – LU) and their personalities, politics, planes, projects, pockets, profit, plantation, preaching, privacy w/ no oversight, poolboys, & in RZ’s case personal prostitutes.
The challenge with church participation is to stay on mission: the essential relationships as described by Jesus.
A sociologist was saying that homeless camps spring up with people congregating for the common mission of survival during hard times, but inevitably within a short time, in every case, an alpha male rises up to orchestrate drugs, sex, and criminal activity all under his power, throughout.
A community of trust such as a church is just too tempting for the grifting, grabbing, goons (some coming out of seminaries, no less) that purpose to leverage the network for their own evil purposes of power, profit, and vice.
Nothing about the Gospel is for sale, or for hierarchies of power over people, or for fulfilling vice, that is, base desires.
The challenge with church is to stay on point: Love God with your all, love your neighbor (including orphans, widows, the displaced) as yourself.
As soon as the leadership disposes of those Jesus loves (the disposables – such as what SBC has done to children violated under their watch), the group has lost its focus and distanced itself from God, and thus, is no longer the Body of Christ, filled with and walking in the Spirit. (“Walk by the Spirit and you will not fulfill the desires of the flesh.”) Flesh or Spirit? is the essential Sunday morning or whenever church meets, question.
One would think that how this report was handled would be decided by the elders vs. someone dictating to the elders. Just baffling.
That.
Bottom line: the Body of Christ does not have to put up with such poor leadership … church is voluntary … Christ has set you free … contrary to Calvinista belief, you have a free will … Christ has set you free … you can voluntarily and freely leave a place where stealth and deception reign. There are things to do in the Kingdom of God, time is short, don’t waste it, the Kingdom needs you, move on.
Great insight. I hadn’t considered that.
Can you imagine how much weirdness that I was once a part of?
I would imagine the new pastor made sure he had the right people in position.
dee,
Unfortunately, I can….
I suspect that CHBC, like most NeoCal churches, have membership running in the 20s-30s with young families. No childcare would be a problem. Since New Calvinism is famous for its stealth and deception, this might very well be a way to limit attendance at the meeting.
After 70+ years of doing church in America, can you imagine how much weirdness I experienced?! I could write a book … and have been in my TWW comments.
I love you, Max!
I don’t think that’s the case at most really large churches anymore. It’s all a big show to make people think they have input when really they are there to provide a false sense of security to members.
JDV,
Regarding childcare, I didn’t make the connection at the time, but you are so right.
This happened when our (now former) church had a members meeting to hear about a building purchase and ask questions. It is a complementarian-bordering-on-patriarchal church, so most of the women in our circle of friends (all of whom had young kids) didn’t go. I did, because I’m nosey like that, and my kids (fortunately) tend to behave themselves well in public. Husband and I just came well prepared with snacks and toys.
Know what I noticed? The pastor’s wife sure didn’t have to worry about childcare. Her three young kids were being diligently tended to by a church staff member while she socialized.
This struck me particularly in contrast to our previous church. Husband and I had gone to one of their Prayer and Worship Nights, and the people who were supposed to provide childcare didn’t show up. I was prepared to just mind our toddler in the service, but the pastor’s wife offered to take her back to the nursery for playtime. THAT was “servant leadership.”
Jeffrey Chalmers,
And, the Elder’s “talk” was all focused on them and the staff… What? Did Grace just make up their data that is so hurtful? What about the pew peons… oh, I forget, it all about their G$d ordained leadership…
This Elder does let it slip that at least some of the issues involves minorities leaving the church…..
Eyewitness,
“since people who were interviewed for the GRACE report are free to tell their stories.”
+++++++++++++++
if so, then a new self-published report sounds delightful, and they all contribute.
Eyewitness,
“Biblically, the cover-up *adds* to the crime and will be totally ineffective before God.”
++++++++
oh, ‘biblically’ can be rationalized to mean anything.
i have no doubt @steven_king and friends are attempting such rationalization.
‘tcha, the map of the truth crisis epidemic has a huge throbbing red hot spot emanating from this silly religion of mine.
jesus and i have this perpetual look of irony on our faces.
who can i hire to paint ironic-face jesus of nazareth for me?
(it’ll go on the wall, for sure.)
ChuckP,
“I think a lot of church is just smoke and mirrors.”
+++++++++++
yeah, well, me and my prayer group are the real deal. and we pray real good for free.
Imagine that. Just like Jesus. Pray for free. Jesus even healed people for free. No pastor plane or chariot either.
Nobody stopped to hear them …
though they prayed so sweet and high…
Muff Potter,
velvet curtain calls…. tish, pshaw, & nonsense
I am glad I also left this church. The pastor had a series of sermons which were aimed at making the congregation feel sinful. He had one about how one of the “heroes of the faith” (per Paul) was so very sinful. Nothing about forgiveness. Nothing about faith. Nothing about being God’s children. I went up to him and told him it was wrong. Yes, we are all sinful – but that is not the gospel. He liked to talk about the “Gospel” all the time – but it appeared from his sermons that he didn’t understand it at all. He definitely should not be a pastor (imho), elder, deacon or any officer in a church. This attitude “we are the holy master” you are the sinful workerbes needs to go. If you see it in a church… RUN.
To a New Calvinist, Gospel = Calvinism. NeoCals talk a lot about “God”, with barely a mention of Jesus, and nary a word about the Holy Spirit. Their message is another gospel which is not ‘the’ Gospel.
And nothing about being a true shepherd to the Body of Christ.
Nowadays, for some pastors, that inner circle is their armor.
Ephesians 6 recommends a completely different set of armor. Truth is one piece of the armor God requires of the Christian, by the way. Being opaque to church donors about what goes on in the church they support is never truthful, from the get-go. Transparency is a fundamental requirement for donors. Big red flag if that is missing.
The video was from back in the spring of 2022 and was in response to the resignations of 4 elders. Their letters were posted on Google docs and Dee wrote an article about them. https://thewartburgwatch.com/2022/03/04/the-convicting-letters-of-resignations-from-the-four-elders-of-chapel-hill-bible-church/
Those elders resigned for 2 broad reasons: 1) their sense that the rest of the leadership was inclined to withhold the GRACE report when it came out (and which hadn’t been written yet) and 2) because of the roadblocks they experienced as elders who were attempting to address unity in Christ across racial and ethnic identities in the body.
So Steven King’s announcement in the video confirmed these elders’ concerns that the GRACE report would not be released. But he was actually truthful in acknowledging the departure of many members who no longer felt comfortable in the church because of their race or ethnicity or how their fellowship group had been treated.
Fast forward several months to the present. My understanding is that the GRACE report took so long to come out because people kept asking to be interviewed and 100s of pages of documentation was submitted that had to be carefully read and integrated with the interviews with so many from the church.
Here’s a portion from their most recent letter:
“I am guessing many of you are wondering if or when we will release the report. The small team yesterday decided we should not make such an important decision so quickly without having time to pray and consider all the possibilities and implications.
It has taken a long time to get to this point, and I am thankful we finally have the report. We will not work or communicate in haste. We will continue to be prayerful, thoughtful, and compassionate. We have a lot of work to do this week, and we will talk about that work next week and answer your questions. I encourage all of our members to join us next Sunday evening.”
Recall that they had said back in the spring that they wouldn’t release it, sight unseen. I am guessing that the report contained even more truth than they were expecting and certain among them looked even worse than they were expecting. Otherwise, they would have released it right? Obviously, when elders and deacons have to read it under guard and cannot take notes or photos, they were intent on controlling the content and were going to double down on withholding it.
But they unexpectedly delayed the meeting to discuss it with the congregation from 11-13 to 11-20. I wonder if there is some internal push-back towards releasing the report. If not, it’s pretty much guaranteed that one of the wolves will write the “summary” that the congregation will get.
JJallday,
What sorts of questions were on this ‘survey’?
Ava Aaronson,
well said, AVA
Great comment! Too many “pastors” are clothed with the wrong armor. Stealth, deception, and abuse are not included in the armor noted in Ephesians 6.
Eyewitness,
IMO, the elders realize they have to figure out a way to keep Jay around after a difficult report. I believe they are planning their approach, which might raise many objections. I think they will come in with an answer to all questions and will be prepared to bulldoze their “solutions.”
I remember when CHBC was a church based on congregational input. That is not the case at the moment. I am so sad that the church ended up being just one more ho-hum, Calvinista church in which the congregation gets sidelined so the pastor can build his church based on what the other “cool and theologically evolved” pastors are doing.
The elder board became full-out Calvinists. I will never forget two things.
1. Wally told Bill and me when we joined (Dave Ward was the pastor) that the church would not be as it used to be. He warned us. I was too stupid to listen since Dave was there and all was OK.
2. Phil, before his death, told me that his favorite writer was Tim Challies (I think he may have also said Kevin DeYoung, but I am fuzzy on that.) This was after Jay’s arrival. He was noticeably irritated when I asked him why CHBC joined The Gospel Coalition since that sort of thing was supposed to be for a congregational vote. At that point, I knew we were targeted.
Dave,
I read your comment to Bill last night. We did have some good times in Jim’s class. I learned so much from him and often use some of his ideas when writing here. My best to T and S.
Ever heard of the Romish expression “Pay, Pray, and OBEY!”?
Over the past 500 years, the RCC and the RTC Reformed have completely switched places in attitude and behavior.
They might need to claim Private Revelation, i.e. “Christ Appeared Unto Me in a Dream/Vision/Whatever and Commanded…” Or is that too Romish?
If they were NAR-level Charismatics, it wouldn’t be a problem. Kat Kerr’s followers believe every word she says is Direct From God, backed up by Threat of God’s Wrath.
Don’t Be Left Behind(TM)!
Does Jay have blackmail dirt on the elders?
Or does all power flow from Jay to the elders, like so many Elder-led One True Churches?
(Or as power flowed from the One Ring and it’s Lord to the Seven and the Nine?)
Pastor Superapostle sez:
“I Have X Problem, so Gawd Saith All Of YOU Must Have The Same Problem!!!”
dee,
All true. You warned me about Jay when you left, and you were so right.
One could certainly make a good case for that.
“implications” … sounds ominous
Congregational voice is silenced when NeoCals set up shop. It’s my way or the highway, sit down and shut up, under their elder-rule governance. For the life of me, I don’t understand why otherwise intelligent believers put up with this … especially if they were members under congregational church governance and saw it change as the Calvinista pastor + inner ring took over. I realize that church members don’t want to leave a fellowship for various reasons (I agonized when I made that decision in the past), but authoritarian church leaders plus aberrant belief and practice are good grounds to exit … your spiritual health requires it.
Max,
I have been thinking the same thing
christiane,
What do you like best about the church? What do you think needs to change about the church? What are you looking for in a pastor? Then all types of questions such as: Would you go to a Sunday School class if A) It was before church B) it was after church C) I prefer a mid-week Bible study. I want to say it was about 3-4 pages long in total.
Yup, been there during the takeover, not going back to this place or any other place that rings the bells of this movement.
You can be a real piece of work.
You can be a slum-lord, never fix the plumbing, and keep jacking up the rents on the working poor, you name it, you’re good to go.
Just don’t get caught doing the hanky-panky with someone who’s not your spouse, or looking at porn, cuz’ if ya do, you’ll get run out on a rail.
New Calvinism, as with all movements which are not a move of God, will fade into obscurity someday. Unfortunately, thousands will be left confused and disillusioned and may never try church again. And whose plan would that be?
Where will they go(to do church)? They will go to therapy, find resilience, study gaslighting defense and do church over lunch with a friend.
This is a great reminder.
May this prediction come true.
And since you can Tithe five figures a year, the churches will be backstabbing each other to have you on board and Tithing. If not buy the pastor and church outright.
And TITHE! TITHE! TITHE! TITHE! TITHE! to the Predestined Elect.
dee,
“Max: New Calvinism, as with all movements which are not a move of God, will fade into obscurity someday.
May this prediction come true.”
++++++++++++++++++
as i see it, survival of the fittest extends to ideas and practices — but usually very slowly in our ‘earth time’.
stupid stuff especially just doesn’t stick.
Muff Potter,
Hate to disagree with you here, but getting caught with a non-spouse just seems to mean you take a Sabbatical. And my old church is still standing by the deacon who went to jail for creating and disseminating child SA materials. “He simply fell into the Porn trap” says they. “Anyone could do it. It’s a slippery slope, yah know.”
But a woman preaching? Or me admitting our marriage is egalitarian? Or going to an ELCA church????!!!!!!! Heavens to Betsy, what is this world coming to!!??? How can you call yourself a Christian? REPENT! REPENT I SAY!
Update:
https://biblechurch.life/members-meeting
“REGARDING CHILDCARE:
“Childcare will not be available for this meeting, but kids are welcome to attend.”
As Max and others repeated pound on, the Neo-Cals/Et al really do through the word “Gospel” around allot. Does anyone know if this crowd have a succinct definition of the “Gospel”??? I suspect it is very different than mine..
Max,
Well, they do just kick out anyone who doesn’t go along with it. And along with all the other problems with covenants, they weed out people who are even suspicious of them, much less think for themselves. Their churches are designed to be full of people who either are on their team or are naive followers.
Ishy,
And to add further “anii-Christ” like behavoir, I have always been “impressed” when I re-read, or hear preached, Christ’s parables and responses to questions.. In so many cases, JC answers are not direct commands, but a discourse in which you need to walk way and “think” about… just the opposite of the Neo-Cal crowd…
The perfect congregation for an authoritarian, abusive, ungodly “pastor.” You can find them in darn near every community in America … doing church for other reasons than for the Kingdom of God. “Depart from me, I never knew you. You have worked on the side of evil!” will ring in their ears for eternity.
Jeffrey J Chalmers,
They don’t study Jesus’ life or ministry, despite their claims of being more biblical than everyone else. A lot of beliefs Jesus taught are very contradictory to the kind of world they want.
I think those views have infected even those evangelical Christians who aren’t Calvinistas. That has bled over to the political realm, where we now have a faction of people that want a political ruler that will take away all their freedoms (religion included, but they don’t see that). They think they are special, but I think the Liberty documentary is evidence that their high kings only view them as tools and peons.
The problem with fame and glory is there is always someone who will come along to take it away from you. You end up being more worried about that and will never be happy with where you are. So who has the true keys to happiness, the one who is afraid everyone will take theirs or the one who has enough to keep giving it away forever?
New Calvinism can only exist where folks in the pew have tossed aside critical thinking skills … where they are prayerless and don’t read Scripture themselves with the Holy Spirit as teacher. They have become so open-minded about every word out of “Pastor’s” mouth, that their spiritual brains have fallen out. The only cure to this is to pay heed to red flags, don’t trust church leaders until you really ‘know’ them, test the spirits to see if they be from God … then walk away for a season, humble yourself, read the red, pray for wisdom, and listen only to what Jesus says. New Calvinism is successful in part because its messengers steer the pew clear of the Gospels and serve up only twisted eisegesis of the epistles to support aberrant belief and practice.
I can take you to a NeoCal church near me where the “lead pastor” quotes Piper-points more than Jesus … where Driscoll-behavior is mimicked … where the pew is controlled with a Dever-fist. Jesus? Jesus who?!
To a New Calvinist, Calvinism ‘is’ the Gospel. They firmly believe that the gospel is framed by the tenets of reformed theology and that all other expressions of the Christian faith are counterfeit. You will never hear the message of the Cross of Christ for ALL people … “whosoever will may come” may not come under their message. There is no free will conversion to faith in Christ, it’s been covered under their distorted view of predestination and election … in which some are saved and most are damned before they ever draw breath on earth. It’s another gospel which is not the Gospel at all. (of course, they will explain away all that ole Max just said with twisted Scripture … but those who have ears to hear what the Spirit is saying will dismiss their argument as error)
JDV,
This is what you predicted.
Who in their right mind would want kids in that meeting?! There is the potential for weeping and gnashing of teeth there! (or should be). So with most members with young families, no childcare available, and wise parents desiring not to take their kids to a brawl following the opening prayer, the meeting will have limited attendance. The “no childcare” was intentional, IMO.
Max,
Been there; done that. Most of the time, they just talk about themselves. A LOT. But I haven’t met one who was half as epic as he imagined himself to be.
Who needs Jesus when you have Piper?
Or Driscoll?
Or Dever?
Or CALVIN?
(Or Kat Kerr and her Magick Wizard’s Staff…)
Just like an infamous figure in local Furry Fandom a couple decades ago (who was also a Pathological Nonstop Talker whose favorite subject was himself):
A Legend in His Own Mind,
A Bad Joke in Everyone Else’s.
Who needs Christ when you have CALVIN?
CALVIN who alone Has God All Figured Out?
A young restless and reformed SBC church planter came into our community with a furry and message that he was going to make God look big. I introduced myself to him and told him that God was already quite big. He looked at me like a raccoon caught in headlights and obviously upset that I had burst his bubble. He left town a few years later, his church plant closed, and God was still the same size.
JJallday,
I’m wondering if folks felt that the survey ‘invaded their privacy’ in an unnecessary way as ‘too intrusive’?
Would a ‘town meeting’ type community gathering have been a more-open way of raising needed issues? It might have controlled the urge to be invasive, then to shut down responses from the congregation, then to trigger an ‘urge to purge’ by an over-controlling ‘pastor’ who cannot handle honest criticism or offers of suggestions by them what would want the Church to be more ‘collegial’ in the way of the early Christian Church (the councils)
I’d be creeped out by intrusive questions, yes. Especially if demands were made for a response . . .
control issues come to mind when this kind of thing happens, and not to any good purpose either
THANKS for the info. Appreciate your response. 🙂
Max,
I have to know… a furry, or a fury? I’m seriously hoping that your neck of the woods had a Raccoon Mega for a while. 🙂
hahahaha … missed that. That would be “fury.” Of course, “pastor” might have had a “furry”, too; I just never saw the critter. 🙂
And to keep them greenbacks comin’ in.
I’m happy as a clam going to my ELCA (Lutheran) church.
Very Liturgical, no dictator in the pulpit, coffee and donuts with great people afterwards.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
They callin me a rapper, man I think I’m a magician – Skepta, ‘What do you mean’
elastigirl,
Elect to be subalterns in the hierarchy of those trolled into being tools. This destiny is writ large in a Chandler / CJ / PJ / Long Seniors, largish in your neighbourhood YRRs or an Ortberg junior, and a tight lipped warning (if we’ll heed it) in the lives of christians around us.
Non-egalitarian marriages are not even worth having, IM(ns)HO. Not even many “complementarian” couples want them
That’s why, years ago, Wayne Grudem I think it was, complained that many complementarianism-affirming couples actually lived in quite egalitarian marriages.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
I was at a panel at Dragon*Con with Diana Gaboldon and a certain SF/fantasy writer known for his harem dragon novels. Most people there wanted to hear Gaboldon. The other writer, whose books I have read and isn’t a very good writer anyway, interrupted every question Gaboldon was asked and would go on and on about himself. The (female) moderator kept trying to shut him down and he would just stand up and talk louder. Nothing he said was interesting or unique, but he clearly was completely enamored with himself.
I think a lot of the New Cal leaders are similar in that respect, where all of their self-proclaimed mad leadership skillz are imagined and nowhere near as good as they imagine themselves to be. “Isn’t he a great leader!” Ha, just go ask him and I’m sure he will tell you in great detail!
Wild Honey,
“…a members meeting to hear about a building purchase and ask questions.
It is a complementarian-bordering-on-patriarchal church, so most of the women in our circle of friends (all of whom had young kids) didn’t go. I did, because I’m nosey like that,”
+++++++++++++++++
great that you went.
but, hmmmmm… so women in complementarian culture tend not to go to such meetings? tend to be passive and keep themselves removed from things of significant consequence in their church (and perhaps other settings)? they don’t see themselves as 100% stakeholders like anyone else?
Michael in UK,
“Elect to be subalterns in the hierarchy of those trolled into being tools.”
+++++++++++++
can you rephrase? i don’t have the energy this morning.
Totally off topic, but that album, Ladies of the Canyon, was and is magic.
Her electric piano on the Woodstock track is the most hauntingly beautiful accompaniment I’ve ever heard.
No they don’t.
In that culture a woman can have no agency of her own.
I heard a ‘Bible’ teacher once say that Esther could not have done what she did without Mordecai’s ‘covering’.
Muff Potter,
oh…. she’s just….
i had to listen to it again to refresh my memory. love the chord change on “back to the garden”.
i watched a live performance on youtube. i’m struck with how totally unselfconscious she is. nothing to prove, nothing to hide, no grandstanding, no heroics.
just sharing something deep, just communicating with other humans.
the pure honesty of it.
Muff Potter,
tish, pshawn, nonsense, and a crock o’sh|t sold to people as ‘godly’… people just innocently trying to do their best. really, really angers me.
i’m shocked at the degree to which christian women are repressed by evangelical culture. to the point that verbalizing “this is wrong” to a pastor(s) is revolutionary.
come on, christian women, make use of your conviction & stand up, walk right up to them, lean in close, eye to eye and speak plainly.
ok, that got me going… off to do mundane tasks.
AMEN!
Get right in their faces and tell em’ it’s horse manure.
The women at CHBC are the ones leading the charge, IMO. I was the one who got the heck out of there when these new pastors came and changed a lovely church into a stern, humorless, and Piperesque deal.
PS-Can you send me your phone number?
Just change the religion in Iran, and those ‘new pastors’ would feel right at home.
It’s been my experience doing church in America for 70+ years that female believers are usually the most spiritual among the bunch in the average church. New Calvinism makes them sit down and shut up so their men won’t have to hear what the Spirit is saying to the church. One would never accuse NeoCal leaders and their wimpy followers of being spiritual … authoritarian and dogmatic, yes … but never spiritual.
Life ain’t going to get any better for female believers ensnared by New Calvinism until they rise up en masse, declare “Enough is enough!”, and start dragging their sorry husbands/boyfriends out of the mess. There’s only so much you can take of the “beauty of complementarity”!
dee,
“The women at CHBC are the ones leading the charge, IMO.”
++++++++++++++++
heroes, they are.
elastigirl,
Each rank were pre-arranged to be trapped into being manipulated into their roles and status.
Michael in UK,
subaltern = eternally subordinated
Ishy, you have just described a classic Panel Hijacking.
HoguWinningAuthorDavidBrin (all one word) had a long reputation for panel hijacking at local San Diego-area cons. Even when he wasn’t officially on the panel.
P.S. “Dragon Harem Novels”?
Being a Veteran of Furry Fandom (which also includes Scalies), I have to ask.
Are these dragons with harems of humans, human alpha males with harems of dragonesses, or dragons/dragonesses on both sides of the equation? Because this high concept sounds like something out of really bad Furry fiction.
Domestic Livestock with Benefits (nudge nudge wink wink know what I mean know that I mean…)
To me a “subaltern” is Euro-English for a 2nd Lieutenant (i.e. the lowest commissioned officer rank).
Women are the stronger of our species.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
It’s also Gramsci’s jargon for those whose affections and voices are to be permanently stolen and merely swapped among whatever top dogs (hegemons) are next in turn (in Animal Farm terms, two legs or four legs). A number of “movements” consciously apply or applied that model (including in commerce).
Gayatri Chakravorty Spivak is a perceptive commentator on this phenomenon in postcolonialism. IMO materialist, moralising, ad hominem, prayerless, meaningless, codependent, wheedling religion (whatever the denomination or parachurch) is itself neocolonialism.
strong>Muff Potter,
As soon as my dad got married to my mum, she made him leave a certain nuisance movement of that time. They were reticent so I didn’t learn from it, and I haven’t been married yet, so I didn’t get round to actually leaving one of mine till 17 years after I had thought of leaving.
God knows who He can trust. Female believers may very well outnumber men in the final Roll Call of Faith.
Old School Gamer Geek trivia:
In both D&D and Traveller, character generation rolls the same number and type of dice for Strength and Constitution/Endurance. Without racial modifiers, our local convention was if Str was greater than Con/End, the character was male. If Str was less than Con/End, female. Since Con/End usually affected toughness and survivability, males were stronger but females were harder to kill.
If Str = Con/End, it could be either way (player’s choice) or all bets were off if the player was kinky.