“It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations if you live near him.” J. R. R. Tolkien
Until my last couple of years at Chapel Hill Bible Church, I viewed this church body with great affection. It was one of the few churches that I had attended that placed a premium on the intellectual strength in the Christian life. Given the fact that it was birthed at UNC-Chapel Hill and also drew a large contingent from Duke, this should not be a surprise. This wasn’t just another “student” church. It was a church that attracted faculty members of educational institutions as well as those from the Research Triangle Park which houses scientific and technology firms. I found my faith challenged in a positive way and saw my thinking growing deeper. I truly loved this church. I still love that old church.
In my opinion, things changed with the advent of the current pastor. When my husband and I decided to “get out of Dodge,” I was wondering if we were the only ones who saw a gathering cloud. Please hear me. I’m grateful that we moved on because we found a church that is life-giving instead of soul-draining. Soul draining… that is the word I’ve been trying to find which well describes our last year at CHBC.
Why did four elders leave? How did they describe their thinking? It’s rare to find such an insight into the minds and faith of four church leaders in the midst of a crisis. Such a crisis can be used for good. Look at the life of Martin Luther whose crisis of faith caused one of the greatest religious upheavals this world has ever experienced. It is my hope that the disturbance at CHBC will lead to changes in leadership and racial understanding.
An anonymous person posted the links to these letters on my last post. I am grateful. I do not know their identity.
FYI: I have not included letters from people of color in the congregation. I may do so at a later date.
Open Letter to the Elders
February 2022
An Open Letter to the Elders of Chapel Hill Bible Church
Dear Elders,
With great sorrow and heavy hearts, we, Gary Cuddeback, Walker Hicks, Joo Lee, and Young Whang, officially tender our resignations from the elder board of the Bible Church. Our reasons have both shared and distinct elements, so we will share common threads here and elaborate more on personal statements separately, which are linked below.
First, we want to express our gratitude at having the privilege of serving on the elder board. It has been an honor to serve alongside a group of such earnest men of God, and we have learned so much from you during our tenures. We would also like to thank those of you who have supported each of us in this difficult season, whether it was done privately or publicly. As we have struggled through many tough discussions, you have encouraged us. You have prayed with us. It has been people like you that attracted us to this church in the first place, you have given us belonging, love, genuine friendship, and care.
We are resigning because we share the conviction that the leadership of the church is guided more by a commitment to the preservation of CHBC as an institution than a commitment to the Gospel. Leadership now tends to prioritize loyalty, legal protections, reputations, community standing, membership numbers, and budgets over biblical health, truth, consensus building, and care for individual members of the body. An unbiblical sense of “unity” (meaning, mainly, a lack of conflict or disagreement) is prized over true biblical oneness that is rooted in the costly pursuit of truth, love, and grace. Furthermore, we’ve discovered that adherence to a narrow set of theological convictions and priorities has taken a far-too-prominent role in the life of our church, and these narrow convictions and priorities determine from what we focus on in the pulpit to the emphasis in our ministries and criteria for selection of leaders. Many Gospel casualties have resulted from this shift in focus, not least of them being further marginalization of ethnic minorities and unbiblical disempowerment of women.
Looking back, we have regrets about our tenure as elders. We should have noticed the early signs of dysfunctional leadership structure sooner. All too often, we blindly accepted (and failed to appropriately question) many of the actions and postures of the board.
We are particularly concerned with the generally inhospitable and difficult atmosphere at CHBC for congregants of color. Although CHBC claims that ethnic diversity is a strategic priority, we have failed to make strides in this area; in fact, it is getting worse. In February of 2021, after the disheartening and discouraging response from church leadership to the January 6th Capitol riots (as indicated by many congregants), we sent out a survey of our congregants of color, asking them to respond to the question, “What would you like for the elders and leaders of the church to know about what it’s like to be a person of color at the CHBC?” Here are the responses.
The reason we are addressing the elders in an “open letter” is because of the importance of the issues at stake and our obligation to the body to shepherd and protect the congregation. To that end, we are making this letter available to anyone who wants to know why we are resigning our eldership. We have made every effort in the last two years to work within the system, go through the “proper channels,” and defer to the direction and preferences of the lead pastor, staff, and the elder chairs, but our efforts have at almost every turn been minimized, delayed, rebuffed and largely rejected. In our duties to faithfully shepherd the congregation, we see no other productive alternative.
We know that some will ask, ““Why now? Why not wait to see what happens with the GRACE assessment?” Each of our families has spent recent years in the church advocating for important changes. Our experience, unfortunately, has been that the structures and practices at CHBC are fundamentally inadequate to respond effectively to the challenges at hand. Indeed, in many ways, the structures in place discourage truth and change. Patterns of dysfunction (that show no signs of abating) not only persist but they are maintained and perpetuated. Even since the church acquired GRACE’s services, we have all witnessed multiple occasions of leadership putting forward an appearance of transparency while simultaneously evading truthful, healthy disclosure of vital information. Because we have been repeatedly silenced, dismissed, and rebuffed, we do not have confidence in current leadership’s willingness to receive and apply the GRACE report in the right spirit.
Finally, we have one plea to all of you. Whatever the result might be from GRACE, please advocate to have its full, unredacted report publicly available broadly and transparently. We believe that this transparency will earn trust with the rest of the congregation, and this church will become healthier for it. We sincerely pray that the process with GRACE and LFM will help to shape the leadership of the Bible Church into the kind of discerning, bold, loving shepherds that Scripture calls it to be.
We will miss working closely with you. We have felt incredibly humbled and blessed to have had the chance to serve the Lord and His church. Wherever the Lord leads each of us, we look forward to continuing to be a part of the larger church together with you as we serve Jesus in the community and the world in the years ahead.
In Christ,
Gary Cuddeback, Walker Hicks, Joo Lee, and Young Whang
Personal Statements
Gary Cuddleback Letter
February 2022
Dear Elders of Chapel Hill Bible Church,
I prayerfully submit this letter of resignation as an elder of the Chapel Hill Bible Church (CHBC). As many of you may know, I have recently moved to Virginia. After almost 20 years in the Chapel Hill / Durham area and almost that many as a member of the CHBC, the decision to leave was difficult, and I appreciate continued prayer for me and my family. My wife and I hope to maintain many deep and meaningful relationships we have cultivated during our time in North Carolina – a number of these with members of the CHBC.
Since 2003, I have appreciated the opportunities to serve the CHBC and its congregation. I have served as a Sunday school teacher, substitute teacher in the children’s ministry, served in the nursery, served as a small group leader, and volunteered for many, many events. I have met wonderful, God-filled people and have appreciated serving alongside many of you.
I have been an elder for only a short time (less than 3 years) and almost all of my tenure as an elder has been impacted by the challenges of COVID and the seemingly endless string of controversies and other issues, many that have troubled me greatly. These are the issues I am praying for, as it is my hope and desire for a healthy CHBC.
Starting with the CHBC’s poor response to the events of January 6th last year, I have been alarmed by many patterns of dysfunction in the CHBC. The tepid support, and this is being generous, for the Race and Faith class and the Be the Bridge initiatives have been particularly discouraging. Have we seen an exodus of people of color leaving the church? Is leadership becoming more diverse, both with regard to race/ethnicity and in its perspectives? The body of Christ is diverse and our leadership should also be diverse.
Further, in my opinion and experience, there seems to be a complete lack of transparency regarding how elders, the oversight team, the lead pastor support team and the executive pastor support team are selected, which is of significant concern to me. I pray for more transparency and accountability here. I believe these issues are important for the congregation to understand as well.
Moreover, repeatedly during my time as an elder, decisions were made which I had absolutely no input, yet these decisions were characterized to the congregation as having the endorsement of all elders. This issue has been raised several times by me and others. I’m not sure what it means to be an elder-led church? Maybe my lack of blind faith in those who are making decisions points to my own flaws? Recent events at CHBC should be a wakeup call for us all. I pray for more transparency, accountability and inclusivity in decision making. I also earnestly pray that ALL elders get involved in discussions and decisions. Do not just sit quietly on the sidelines!
Robust discussion is a healthy thing, and all opinions and perspectives should be welcomed. Elders who challenge leaders and decisions and processes should not be marginalized or silenced or discredited as agitators. And members of our congregation, those who love the CHBC, should not be defamed and discredited. I pray, moving forward, that leadership finds a way to facilitate discussion and honor all our perspectives in a Christ-centered and loving way.
In addition, I have observed, even before my time as an elder, a number of friends and others deeply hurt byCHBC leadership. If we focus on one or two of these, it is easy to rationalize as isolated incidents that are typical of any big organization. However, in my opinion, there is a longer history here that should be examined carefully, thoughtfully and prayerfully. What is it about our culture and climate that allowed and continues to allow these events to happen?
I pray that the report from GRACE be taken seriously and to heart. I fear, already, that the report and GRACE’s efforts and purpose have been dismissed and discredited, which would be consistent with ongoing patterns at the CHBC. As expressed in the joint resignation letter, full transparency will earn trust with the rest of the congregation. I earnestly pray that the process with GRACE and LFM will help to shape the leadership of the CHBC and its governance.
In Christ,
Gary Cuddeback
Walker Hicks Letter
February 2022
Dear fellow CHBC elders and brothers in Christ,
Katherine and I have approached our life in the church as a family affair, so my involvement as an elder has always involved both of us. We have made the decision for me to resign as an elder together based on our shared experiences. We have been members of the church for the better part of thirty years (joining the community in the early 1990’s) and have joyfully served and been served by this body for our entire adult lives. Out of a love, concern for, and long commitment to this church family, we are compelled to more fully share our reasons for my resignation from the board.
Our history at CHBC
The Bible Church has been the defining institution in my walk with Christ. I encountered Him as a freshman at UNC in 1994, and in the fall of 1995, a friend at Campus Crusade for Christ suggested that I check out this church on the edge of campus. Upon visiting, I heard the Gospel professed with a clarity, depth, authenticity, and earnestness that I had never encountered before. The worship, the sermons, and the community all pointed me to Jesus through the conduit of the scriptures in a way that was entirely fresh, vibrant, alive, and genuine. I had never experienced anything like it.
Katherine and I got engaged in October of 1996, and Pastor Randy Russell conducted our pre-marital counseling and marriage. We set our roots into the soil of this community and became involved in youth ministry and young adults fellowship, and through those avenues began to grow the kind of deep, long-lasting, intergenerational, Gospel-centered friendships that CHBC specializes in. We are dear friends with many of those we met in the late 90’s to this day.
The Bible Church hit rocky times in the late 90’s and early 2000’s, but Katherine and I remained committed to it, for many reasons. First of all, we understand a church to be primarily a family, and families should not break apart slightly or easily when facing difficulties. Secondly, those rich and deepening relationships formed the core of our life at the church, more so than the Sunday morning experiences or other programming aspects. We were serving the body through our youth ministry leadership and also getting fed through those relationships with others committed to following Christ and growing in Him through Scripture, prayer, and fellowship.
Another challenging season awaited CHBC in the late 2000’s, when many people left and the remaining body floundered, staying afloat but barely. I was called to eldership in 2010. The ensuing 12 years have been some of the most rewarding and, simultaneously, discouraging years of our lives in the church. The church embarked on a new era with the hiring of a new lead pastor in 2011, and I, as an elder voting “yes,” was so excited about the new chapter ahead of us. I have spent the last 6 years as a member and secretary of the Oversight Team. Since June of 2021, I have been on sabbatical from eldership duties.
Why I am resigning from leadership
Over the last few years, Katherine and I have both had myriad occasions where we witnessed people in our church body being marginalized or mistreated. We have heard the stories of an array of wounded people, including women, people of color, children, elders, and current and former employees. We brought concerns about those situations to leadership. We shared hurtful attitudes and racialized statements towards people of color, dismissive and demeaning treatment towards women, and thoughtless, callous, dishonest, and even unethical treatment towards employees and other leaders. After the investigation of the executive pastor, we advocated for care and protection for our staff after learning about the ways that they had been wronged.
Each time that we came forward as advocates of those people, we strove to speak respectfully, as we saw church leaders as brothers in Christ and our friends. We sought to honor the proper channels and lines of authority. We came with the full expectation that our leadership would meet those concerns with the biblically-driven compassion, sadness and concern that we felt. We came with the humble understanding that we may not see all situations fully, so we asked questions to fill in gaps or correct any facts we had wrong. We fully expected they would want to know more to understand these situations better. We thought we would get answers to our questions. We thought that we would have dialogue about what went wrong and how we, as a body, could make the situation right and avoid such wrongs in the future. We never expected anything from our leaders other than assertive action to move toward better understanding, repentance, and repair.
Instead, every time, we were met, at best, with vague apologies about people hurting and, at worst, rebukes for having brought the concern forward. A few elders came to me to ask questions and listened to our stories; some have shown sympathetic concern. But never did key leadership ask more than the most basic of questions or show any desire to better understand any of these situations. Only on a few occasions did we hear any recognition by our leadership of wrongs, but those recognitions were primarily of the least significant elements of those issues and came with justifications and disclaimers. There has never been a clear acknowledgement of harm that has been done to our brothers and sisters at CHBC. Instead we have heard defenses of actions, and even outright calls for us to apologize for having brought up our concerns. And from many in leadership, we have gotten a lot of head-nodding and silence; and never have more than a small minority of elders converted their sympathetic concern into action to address the problems we clearly have. We cannot comprehend these responses from fellow followers of Christ, especially those who have taken the mantle of leadership and profess a gospel that is based on our recognition of brokenness and need for Jesus.
Katherine submitted a letter to leadership in May of 2021 that articulated some of the growing concerns we’ve had in recent years. Those concerns have only heightened in the ensuing months by our experiences where I have tried to follow the clear biblical call to elders to shepherd the flock by guiding them, protecting them, and serving as advocates for them.
Excerpts from Katherine’s letter (with a couple of updates and modifications) are below:
I want to be able to stay at this church that I have called home for almost 30 years, but sadly cannot do that if we do not aggressively change course, as I think that we have veered far from Jesus. I think we have glaring blind spots that are doing damage to the Gospel and to people in our body. I am a mother who sees her children, friends, and many fellow believers and non-believers being emotionally and spiritually harmed. I am a follower of Jesus who sees many of her fellow brothers and sisters in Christ at CHBC (leaders and others) both actively inflicting and passively condoning that harm – over and over again and in the name of Jesus — all the while simultaneously demonstrating both total ignorance of the harm they cause and arrogance about their moral and spiritual authority. It’s painful in so many ways to watch.
Some people are valued more than others
First, I have seen people “on the margins,” as well as the concerns of those people, be devalued, minimized, and silenced in and by our church. I include in this category, at a minimum, non-white people, women, people of low socioeconomic and/or educational status– which, if you do the math, is the majority of people.
Ironically, though, people “on the margins” were Jesus’s first priority, whom he regularly ate and fellowshipped with, and clearly deeply related to. These are the people that he was born into – and I know not by accident. Throughout scripture, God has always displayed a special concern for the vulnerable. And he reached those people by being with them and attending to both their physical and spiritual needs.Now, certainly, CHBC attends to the earthly needs of people in our church body through the benevolence fund, staff’s generous counseling of people who are struggling with various issues, and I’m sure many other ways that I do not see. In addition, CHBC facilitates plenty of one-off projects to serve people outside of the church but I think we can agree that those are not the priority of our church.
However, serving people is also different from respecting and considering those people as having something to offer to you and to the church. This latter area is where I think we fall short. I see a theme in our church that the voices of people who do not fit a certain profile are not valued. I have seen it happen repeatedly where people who have differing ideas are often discredited. When discussing important points or initiatives that other Christian organizations who more aggressively attend to the earthly needs of people in our community, I heard, “yes, but what’s their theology?” before celebrating their generosity and kindness and how they are loving and providing for people in ways that are very much like Jesus did; this is a form of discrediting. I have seen women having their needs and concerns minimized and then, on top of that, when they have expressed their frustrations about not being heard, they have been chastised for being disrespectful and deemed “ungodly.” I have seen people bravely convey their painful experiences of both explicit and subtle “silent” discrimination in and outside the church, and not receive the compassion that is so clearly warranted. [Additional specific examples and instances removed for confidentiality purposes.]
Recognition of sin, confession, and repentance
I see a clear and consistent reluctance to investigate, recognize, confess, and repent of sin within our leadership and church body, despite the fact that the willing recognition of sin, confession, and repentance are some of the most profound acts of faith to which we are clearly called.
Recent situations demonstrate that reluctance so clearly in multiple ways. Related to the executive pastor issues, I know many people told leadership there were problems all along. How, though, could those same problems, when seen by an outside consultant, leave that consultant deeply alarmed? Why not investigate those when they were reported in the years prior? And then once it all came out, the public statement was not one recognizing and confessing leadership’s complicity in all of it, but one about how leadership was going to have to work harder to do an extra job? Repentance was critical at that point for healing and the obvious next step, but it’s not what happened. Why not?
I have also seen this reluctance play out in the way that race issues have been addressed at the church, since that is something that I have been intimately involved with and have seen firsthand. Over the last several years, we have heard a lot of talk and preaching about race issues. I have been so deeply encouraged by that. I appreciated sermons on that topic and the awareness that has been brought in the many applications of scripture to those issues, along with other church events. Yet, at no point have we really investigated, confessed, repented of, and sought to address the challenges of racism in our body. It’s a difficult but crucial first step before any racial development can occur. Plus, confession and repentance of sins are foundations of our faith. I realized when I read the letter sent after the Capitol riots, though, that we were experiencing the direct repercussions of never having done that. I saw damage being done with the words – a neglect to care for those who were most vulnerable in our body at that moment, people who had been threatened and were justifiably terrified for their safety. What I have observed both from the pulpit and from church leadership has been an academic and “safe” study of this sin, as if it is sin that others deal with, but not us.
The anemic response from elders to the responses to the survey of congregants of color at CHBC clearly exemplifies the gravity of this problem. Where is the care? Where is the compassion? I see in that situation that even the leaders of the church are illiterate in these issues that are so significant to many in our body and in our society. How are we to reach people for Jesus if we cannot speak on these things? If we were truly investigating race issues, we would know that and be working hard to root out that sin that binds us. But we haven’t. We understand that a “white paper” on race issues is in development; putting efforts toward a document to demonstrate expertise on these issues without ever recognizing or addressing the many appeals for care in our body only further demonstrates the cognitive dissonance at play.
I have noticed what most people in power typically do with events that have negatively affected marginalized people. They will so often hear each of those stories and decide that they were one-off events without import, writing them off as either one person arbitrarily behaving badly toward another or likely the “victim” deserving what came to them. So those stories are erased in their minds as only that, one-off events. However, if instead of erasing those events, one was to plot them on a graph, a clear pattern would emerge. People in those marginalized groups have enough data points that they, as a matter of their own physical and emotional safety, do not erase – and they clearly see the patterns. At the same time, though, the people in power look at their “graph” and don’t see anything, because all those points were erased along the way. And those that see the patterns see them clearly and it alarms them, and it frustrates them that those people who are their bosses, leaders, and decision-makers make decisions without regard to them. I see that having happened in our church. We have to consider why so many data points have clearly been erased at CHBC along the way, leading leadership to miss those patterns.
Katherine’s insights articulate for me many of my reasons for resigning. In addition, perhaps most disturbingly, I have seen that our leadership has increasingly been willing to compromise its integrity and behave in ethically questionable ways. We have witnessed alarming efforts to hide truth and to control and limit essential information from not only congregants but from officers of the church. The patterns are clear and have also been recognized by many “concerned congregants” in our body, yet they have thus far been disregarded, excused and dismissed by our leadership. I have brought my concerns, supported by specifics, to elders and church officials in conversation after conversation and email after email. This letter is not the place to rebroadcast the specifics of those concerns (involving, for example, recent resignations and firings), but I can no longer serve in such an environment in good conscience.
Recognition of my own complicity
I want to be clear that I own my part in contributing to the dysfunction of the leadership. On many occasions and in many ways, I participated in allowing our church to drift. Time and again, I did not push hard enough for course correction or advocate effectively for biblical priorities. I allowed myself to be persuaded in group settings to go along with unsound decisions that, in hindsight, did not reflect wise, biblical thinking. I was in a position of influence and power, and I failed to use that influence assertively and productively for the kingdom. As a result of my shortcomings, many people were hurt, and our church’s witness has been compromised. For this, I sincerely repent and apologize to the congregants who entrusted me with the church’s care.
My call to the elder board
In inviting GRACE to assess our church, we have opened up a golden opportunity for CHBC to change course. GRACE is renowned for its effective work in helping churches navigate just the sort of problems we are having; it is arguably the most respected agency in the field. I am so grateful for their help. As we approach the release of their report in the months to come, I am concerned that there will be a reluctance to share GRACE’s report broadly and transparently. I am also bothered to have even seen hints of communications and actions that may already be undermining GRACE’s potential recommendations and the impact of the report. For example, I have heard leadership question GRACE’s accepted definition of “abuse,” and I’ve heard general criticism of the use of that word and concept. I have also heard, in a recent sermon, criticism of the recent proliferation of material about church dysfunction, expressing general skepticism about the integrity and value of abuse response and labeling it as a “cottage industry” – while we are the midst of an assessment from a leading organization in the field. I urge you, the elders, to express wholehearted, unequivocal support for GRACE’s assessment and to advocate strongly for a full and transparent sharing of the ensuing report.
Katherine closed her letter with a story and an exhortation. I’d like to finish by sharing it.
I’ll tell you a true story that I feel relates to this situation. Years ago, I had a colleague who also did health economics research, like I do. For several years, much of his time at work was spent on studies aimed at understanding the costs and benefits of an eye screening program for children. The screen was a fairly simple and low-cost one, but identified a fairly rare eye problem that, if diagnosed and treated, prevented many debilitating and expensive problems in the future. He was becoming somewhat of an expert in our field regarding interventions for eye and vision problems. One day my colleague was at Target with his kids. He saw something that he thought one of his sons, who was around 8 or 9 at the time, would like, so made a statement about that item to the son. The boy looked up toward the item, then hesitated, stepped a few feet over, and then clearly recognized and acknowledged how much he liked it. His dad was confused and asked, “What just happened there? Why did you step to the side like that? You could see it from where you were.” His son replied, “Oh, I just had to get myself in a place so that I could use my good eye to see it.” He and his wife soon learned that their son had the very problem with his vision that he had been working for years to get diagnosed in other kids. My colleague was an expert on this vision problem but didn’t recognize that it was right there in his own family.
I think the Bible Church unknowingly has only “one good eye.” It is great at studying and appreciating the scriptures. It is a warm and nurturing place for many people. But I would argue that one of our eyes doesn’t work, the one that truly shows Christ’s love for everyone, regardless of their theology, gender, or race; the one that respects and honors all people’s value; the one that is transparent about our depravity and genuinely celebrates our need for Jesus; and the one that recognizes clear patterns that would be evident if the “data points” of people within and outside our church body were recognized. I feel like we are like Esther in the palace with the king, ignorant of the travesty that is about to unfold, and just wanting the Mordecais in our midst to put on some nicer clothes and stop making a scene. Like she did, though, we have to inquire and we have to respond. We are at a critical point in our church journey in deciding whether we are going to do the hard work and recognize that two eyes are better than one, or live in the fear that currently holds us back from that. We serve the maker of the universe, thank the Lord, and we can trust that we don’t need to live in that fear.
We have been putting out this “call to respond” to the systemic shortcomings in our church again and again over the course of this last year and even before. To our dismay and sadness,not only has that call fallen on deaf ears, but it has met considerable active resistance. We love the Bible Church and grieve that it has become what it is today. We exhort you, the elders, to respond boldly to the moment. We will pray for you, trusting the matchless power and love of the Father to bless CHBC, and we continue to covet the prayers of the faithful for ourselves.
In Christ,
Walker and Katherine Hicks
PS. I am resigning as an elder, but we are not revoking our membership at the church, as we are still actively involved in several church activities, as well as working and praying fervently for healing here.
Joo Lee Letter
Dear Elders of Chapel Hill Bible Church,
After much prayer and discernment with my wife Ashley, I regret to inform you that I am resigning from the Elder board at the Bible Church, while continuing our membership. It has been an honor serving in this capacity with you.
When I was appointed to the elder board 12 years ago, I brought with me my perspective as a minority member of the Bible Church. Historically, the Bible Church has sought out non-white elders in order to learn from our differences, as well as helping one another become aware of our blindspots. After years of serving, I went on an extended leave (Article VI, Section B, Part 5e) because of family circumstances. A year ago, I was compelled to speak, as a minority, into the elder conversations regarding the church leadership’s poor response to the attack on the Capitol on January 6, 2021. I was shocked and deeply hurt because of the lack of condemnation of white supremacy, racism, and violent nationalism. It sent a message to the minorities in our church that the Chapel Hill Bible Church supports the idea that this country is for and ruled by white people and that this church caters to the majority. It was obvious that the church’s response had further marginalized the minority congregants of our church.
In these elder conversations, it has been my intent to help the elders understand that the race issue is beyond mere political rhetoric and that it is central to understanding why the leadership’s response was hurtful. The reason the response ended up being hurtful was because of the leadership’s blindspots to the minorities’ experience of racism. Unfortunately, the leadership has been unwilling to explore their own blindspots. During the elder meeting on February 24, 2021 (refer to the meeting minutes), I pleaded with the elders to publicly recognize and denounce racial injustice and white supremacy and to advocate for the minority congregants. At the end of that meeting, I was assured that this discussion on race was just beginning and that the elders would continue the conversation. The leadership promised this in front of the entire elder board. Regrettably, almost one year later, there has been no further discussion. When I attempted to discuss race in the elder’s discussion forums, I was asked to refrain as it was causing too much conflict among the elders.
During the February 24 meeting, I asked you, the elders, whether or not you cared enough to advocate for those who have been victims of racism. Although some elders did come to me personally to say that they desired to advocate for the marginalized, it is clear that the church leadership does not. What I have seen is that the leadership cares more about stability and protecting the status quo than listening to the elders desperately trying to point out a critical blindspot. I am resigning because I can make no further meaningful difference as an elder, and I cannot be part of this group while accepting the fact that the leadership of CHBC only truly serves to the benefit of the majority congregants.
Furthermore, as I’ve become more involved in elder discussions because of the issue of race, I have witnessed disturbing behaviors. I have seen our church pressure former employees to sign non-disparagement and non-disclosure clauses in post-employment agreements by offering money, in effect paying people for silence. Ministry Watch warns churches to not use these legal means. Just as lying tends to beget more lies, the use of these ethically questionable legal means tend to beget more ethical issues. We have witnessed this already. “Whoever conceals their sins does not prosper, but the one who confesses and renounces them finds mercy.” (Proverbs 28:13) I have also seen frequent uses of half-truths to conceal what truly happened. Unfortunately, half-truths have become an accepted form of behavior, and because of it, honesty and truth have become gray. “Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil.” (Matthew 5:37) I have also witnessed tactics of intentional delay and lack of follow-through. The discussion around race is one such incident. I have heard from former church staff members who were targeted for dismissal or were pushed out. I have also heard from former staff members who were victims of manipulation.You are also aware of multiple accounts of abuse committed by our former executive pastor. I have seen and heard too much to believe that these are just one-off mistakes. There are some deeply-seeded ethical issues that the church leadership needs to dig through and reflect upon. A deep soul searching is in order.
I know that there are other elders who share similar reservations. I pray that you will raise these issues and continue the fight to transform from within. Please advocate for the full, unredacted report from GRACE to be publicly shared with the congregation. Unfortunately, I have already seen some efforts to undermine the legitimacy of GRACE and its efforts. Please ask yourselves, why would a church hire an independent organization to perform an assessment of the church and then undermine the organization’s legitimacy even before the work is finished?
I am writing frankly about the issues that I see in our church leadership because I love this church. When I started attending CHBC 16 years ago, this church provided me with genuine friendships and community that was truly difficult to find at other churches. Resigning from the elder board deeply saddens me. I think we can all agree that this is a very difficult time for our church. I pray that the Spirit will give you all wisdom and courage to follow God alone. I would like to thank those of you who have supported me as we have had difficult discussions on race. You have prayed for me and encouraged me. Thank you for allowing me to serve the church that we all love alongside you.
In Christ, Joo Lee
February 12, 2022
Dear CHBC Elders and Family,
It is with great sadness to inform you that Young has resigned from the Elder Board and we (Young and Sarah) would also respectfully request to be removed from the membership at Chapel Hill Bible Church.
Out of our deep biblical conviction and based on our discernment of the Holy Spirit and our background and gifting, we feel called to help build a local church that strives to fulfill the vision of unity in Christ among many different peoples. When we first joined the church more than twenty years ago, Chapel Hill Bible Church was the local church that embodied this vision. We had hoped that CHBC would CONTINUE to lead the fulfillment of this vision and be a witness in our already diverse local community of Chapel Hill and Durham. To our great disappointment, it seems that the Bible Church no longer shares this vision with us. After an extended season of struggle and searching our hearts and prayer for guidance, we have concluded that it would not be possible for us to pursue our calling at Chapel Hill Bible Church. Thus we have made this difficult decision to join the minority flight from the Bible Church.
We came to Chapel Hill in 1998 as a family with two toddlers and have been worshiping and serving at the BibleChurch since then. All our children grew up at CHBC. We have benefited so much from consistent Biblical preaching. We’ve made so many friends who have modeled for us what growing in Christ looks like. We are so grateful for these giants of faith who taught us how to love the Lord with all our hearts, soul, and mind and how to love our neighbors.
Young served the church as a deacon, chair of the deacon board, and an elder for three terms, and Sarah served in various ministries. But our greatest joy came from serving in the Korean Ministry, where we regularly shared the word of God with unchurched Korean visitors and immigrants who came to CHBC to check out an American church. Despite our shortcomings in speaking Korean and the significant cultural divide, we saw them get excited about the Word, many accepted Christ as their Lord and grew in their relationship with Christ. When we visited South Korea a few years back, we had an opportunity to see the Lord at work in many of their lives. What a joy and privilege that was! We are thankful to the Lord for this opportunity to minister at CHBC.
While the Korean ministry was thriving, Sunday morning service was filled with a diverse group of people, especially Asians like Chinese and Koreans. Their English skills were modest but they were SO attracted to the good news of the gospel that they filled our pews in the back rows at our old church on Mason Farm Road and in our current building. They tried their best to glean a few words here and there so they could grow in the knowledge of our Lord. We shared these language struggles with then Pastor Acuff and he tried his best to use language that was more easily understandable by foreigners to share the good news with the “least of these”. We were probably at the cusp of being considered a multi-ethnic church (threshold of >20% non-majority people in the congregation, a benchmark used commonly by scholars of religion).
Why does this matter? In Ephesians 3:10, God wants to make known his manifold wisdom through the church, where people from different nations and races come together to worship. Revelations 7:9 offers a vision of heavenly worship: “there was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb.” Similarly, Ephesians 2:14 says, “for he (Christ)himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility.” The local church reflecting the heavenly worship should be one of the most tangible ways of demonstrating the reconciliation that Christ has brought into the world, because the dividing wall of hostility between races in the world has been broken down by Christ in the church.
But over the last decade, this diversity at the Bible church has been slowly replaced with one majority culture. It was quite alarming to us to see the 20-30% diversity in the Children’s Sunday school dwindled down to <5% (data from Children’s Sunday school registration a few years ago). We alerted the leadership, and the response was, “That is too bad” and they just moved on. The Bible Church used to engage with the local community by bringing unchurched ethnic kids from the surrounding neighborhoods for things like singing in the choir, and they then would bring their unchurched parents to our Sunday morning service to listen to their children sing.
They then had opportunities to meet our ethnic ministry leaders and some joined our fellowship and came to know the Lord as a result.
As these community-engaging activities were systematically shut down, the regular influx of these unchurched ethnic groups dried up, and even the long-time ethnic congregation members started to leave. We cried with so many of these friends as they were leaving the Bible Church.
Also, while we were leading the Korean ministry, we were bombarded with many very serious congregational care issues (one crisis after another) that overwhelmed us and took its toll on us. We felt like we were laboring in the wilderness, isolated, largely disconnected from the church and with very little support from leadership. We were also disappointed by both subtle and overt signals that we as Asians are not equally valued in the church. After 10 years, we just burned out and we had to leave the ministry.
Over this past decade, we have observed our church staff fill one position after another with people from the majority culture. The interns paraded on stage would be almost exclusively from the majority culture. The worship team on Sunday mornings would be mostly from the majority culture. As we were leaving the Christmas Eve Service last year, an Asian-American woman who moved away several years ago came to greet us, and the first thing she said was, “Why is everyone in the front almost all white?” She asked this question last year when her family received a Christmas card from the church with pictures of all the staff. Sadly, we came to the realization that our church gives lip service to diversity but fails to engage and empathize in a real way with people of color.In Bryan Stevenson’s book Just Mercy, the author encourages deeper engagements with communities of color to truly get a sense of their experience. “Be proximate to INJUSTICE,” he says. During this past decade, our church has become more insular, engaged more and more in “holy huddles” and continues to get farther removed from INJUSTICE.
Therefore, it is hard to “see” the sufferings of communities of color or even the sufferings of some in our own congregants. Most people of color at CHBC were shocked and dismayed and indeed hurt by PastorJay’s letter (approved by the elders of the Oversight Team) to the congregation after the January 6th insurrection. Personal experiences of people of color attending the Bible Church collected at that time paint a picture of pain, alienation, invisibility, and marginalization, feeling like second class citizens, hidden by superficial appearance of harmony and unity. As long-term members at CHBC, we would argue that the current state of CHBC is inconsistent with the historical roots of CHBC. While the proportion of multi-ethnic churches in America has been steadily increasing, diversity at CHBC has been trending the wrong way. Although the elder board began to discuss the race issue, it quickly became apparent to me that it is going to be a difficult and contentious process.
We wonder if our failure to engage meaningfully in these issues is more deeply rooted in our blind spots in interpreting the Scripture and framing the gospel because we are so attached to and proud of our historical tradition. We talk a lot about the “line of Scripture”, not being over or under the “line”. But we question if our biblical teaching really hits the “line of Scripture”. There are big blind spots or deficiencies in the way we think about this “line”. Indeed, Dr. Carl Ellis (whose work Pastor Jay commended in his sermon) writes in the Gospel Coalition article that the American evangelical church focuses primarily on personal piety, but not on the institutional or social dimensions of righteousness.
(https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/biblical-righteousness-four-paned-window/)
It seems to me this criticism is quite applicable to CHBC. Even in our most recent series through the gospel of Luke, the preaching tends to gloss over so many obvious passages dealing with the poor, oppressed, downtrodden people and misses the opportunities to think about applications of the Scripture with respect to lifting up the marginalized in the society and our community. We call for repentance from individual sins or idolatry while ignoring the broken systems that have hurt and oppressed people, right in front of us. I (Young) would challenge the fellow elders to read Carl Ellis’s short article and authors like Esau McCaulley (Reading While Black) or Soong-Chan Rah, to complement the way we usually think about the “line of Scripture” and to be open to correction by people who shine a light to these blind spots. Without the posture of humility and learning even from those who disagree with us, we fear that we will fall far short on meeting the challenge of being true disciples of Christ who can ably share the good news of the gospel in the current moment in America, especially in the signature issue of racial justice and reconciliation.
We will continue to pray for God’s blessings on Chapel Hill Bible Church and for Spirit-led transformation that would be more welcoming to people from every nation and every tongue. Please pray for us as we embark on the next phase of our pursuit of the Lord and His Kingdom.
May the peace of Christ reign in your hearts. Young and Sarah Whang
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Wow, what courageous elders, wish we had more of them.
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This is worth repeating. I believe it describes many churches in the 9Marx mold.
“We are resigning because we share the conviction that the leadership of the church is guided more by a commitment to the preservation of CHBC as an institution than a commitment to the Gospel. Leadership now tends to prioritize loyalty, legal protections, reputations, community standing, membership numbers, and budgets over biblical health, truth, consensus building, and care for individual members of the body. An unbiblical sense of “unity” (meaning, mainly, a lack of conflict or disagreement) is prized over true biblical oneness that is rooted in the costly pursuit of truth, love, and grace. Furthermore, we’ve discovered that adherence to a narrow set of theological convictions and priorities has taken a far-too-prominent role in the life of our church, and these narrow convictions and priorities determine from what we focus on in the pulpit to the emphasis in our ministries and criteria for selection of leaders. Many Gospel casualties have resulted from this shift in focus, not least of them being further marginalization of ethnic minorities and unbiblical disempowerment of women.”
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Preach it. Preach it. Preach it.
And good luck to the Lee and Hicks families. Writing those words openly to the entire congregation, then choosing to stay on as members under the kind of leadership they had to write about, is going to be challenging, to say the least.
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There is a lot of circling the wagons in this movement. And unity is not always a virtue.
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“Some people are valued more than others.
“First, I have seen people ‘on the margins,’ as well as the concerns of those people, be devalued, minimized, and silenced in and by our church. I include in this category, at a minimum, non-white people, women, people of low socioeconomic and/or educational status– which, if you do the math, is the majority of people.
“Ironically, though, people ‘on the margins’ were Jesus’s first priority, whom he regularly ate and fellowshipped with, and clearly deeply related to. These are the people that he was born into – and I know not by accident. Throughout scripture, God has always displayed a special concern for the vulnerable.”
Jesus said that whatever we do to the least of these, we do to our Lord. Orphans, widows, aliens or immigrants, in particular. This elder letter is on the mark.
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Todd Wilhelm,
What do you suppose he means by “Gospel casualties?”
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Todd Wilhelm,
Unfortunately, this behavior is common with many, many orgs…. In fact, Christ railed against established “church”, and so much of his ministry was about putting individuals above the current “orgs”
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“It was a church that attracted faculty members of educational institutions as well as those from the Research Triangle Park which houses scientific and technology firms.” (Dee)
Prime hunting ground for the New Calvinists! Reformed theology is more of an intellectual pursuit than a spiritual endeavor. Twisting Scripture to make it fit pet theology is a game enjoyed by intellectuals. The Gospel is just too complicated for common folks, you know … there must be more … there must be deeper truths to uncover … surely, all the pew peons before us had it wrong. Thus, the ramblings of Piper et al. find fertile ground where the thinkers live. Reminds me of the Athenians that Paul encountered who “spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing … worshiping the Unknown God” (Acts 17:16-34).
Don’t get me wrong. I don’t have anything against the educated … I’ve even attended institutions of higher learning myself, spending a long career as an environmental research scientist. But when religious intellectual pursuit of jots and tittles supersedes getting to know and be known by Christ, you miss the point. If the Main Thing is not the main thing, the whole thing is desperately off track. If you rely on the pulpit to interpret Scripture for you, rather than allowing the Holy Spirit to teach you Truth, you stand vulnerable to error.
It is great to be challenged in your faith by other believers. That’s how we mature in Christ. Just be careful who you are hanging out with and who they have been influenced by … the Piperites are everywhere! Debating the higher things of God is not preaching the Gospel. Gathering around the latest NeoCal book for instruction is not sitting at the feet of God, hungry to get to know Him more.
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You cite the same paragraph that jumped off the page at me! The 9Marx fingerprints are there: “guided more by a commitment to the preservation of CHBC as an institution than a commitment to the Gospel” … “prioritize loyalty, legal protections, reputations, community standing, membership numbers, and budgets over biblical health, truth, consensus building, and care for individual members of the body” … “unbiblical sense of “unity” … “adherence to a narrow set of theological convictions and priorities” … “Gospel casualties have resulted from this shift in focus.”
These are good letters by good men. Unfortunately, I don’t see any of them clearly pointing to the root of the problem … the underlying ails of New Calvinism and 9Marx influence on leadership. The reason that a “commitment to the Gospel” is not prioritized is because another gospel resides at CHBC, which is not ‘the’ Gospel … the reason that “biblical health, truth, consensus building, and care for individual members” is not taking place is because church leaders do not love as they ought … a “narrow set of theological convictions” rule over Truth … there are “Gospel casualties” because whosoever-will may not come. It’s time to take an axe to the root of this tree.
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Extremely challenging … if their letters had not been submitted in the current climate at CHBC, the NeoCal church leaders would have shunned and excommunicated them.
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“Jesus said, “Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and the last first.””
Mark 10:29-31
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This is not a political comment–just a surprised observation that what happened on January 6, 2021 had a deeper impact on at least one church community than I would have expected. I’m not sure what to think about that.
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Very appropriate passage for this situation.
I’m also reminded of the blind man that Jesus healed who stuck to his personal testimony of Christ working in his life, rather than what the Pharisees wanted him to say (John 9). When they threw him out of the church, Jesus went looking for him. Being tossed out of church ain’t a bad thing, if Jesus is out there with you.
There are many churches in America who will be holding services tomorrow without Jesus in the house. They have decided that their teachings and traditions are more important than His presence … that their theology is more important than allowing the Holy Spirit to teach Truth … that controlling the pew is more important than setting them free in Christ. Yep, many places will be doing church without God tomorrow and won’t even miss Him.
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Godith,
‘What do you suppose he means by “Gospel casualties?”‘
My path has never crossed with CHBC and, clearly, I am not Todd.
In the prior post I quoted John 13:34-35, wherein Jesus says the proof that we are his is how well we love each other. Nothing in my experience sows deeper doubt than to be told that one’s loving actions were sinful, and the church leadership’s sinful actions were loving.
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This resonates with what I see of the whole public in the UK – the fear of speaking our minds she mentions – though the situation hasn’t been given the overt “focuses” here it got your side of the puddle; and with the UK being a far less churchy country.
Thus, our church congregations over here haven’t found any “articulacy” or “counter articulacy” in any directions at all, as yet. Just a bit of minor reacting and counterreacting to any particular individuals who say more or less anything.
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You will never hear a NeoCal leader being accused of love … it just ain’t in their theological DNA … arrogance is the primary descriptor assigned to them.
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When listening to elder chair Steven King’s statement in the previous article, I was struck by his statement, ” It became clear to them [the elders who resigned] that the rest of the leadership has a different perspective than they do.” http://thewartburgwatch.com/2022/03/02/chapel-hill-bible-church-will-not-release-the-entire-g-r-a-c-e-report-to-the-membership-in-order-to-protect-the-staff-and-then-theres-the-racism-thing/
Is that his take-away was from these letters? There are simply different perspectives and these four elders and their wives picked up their bats and gloves and went home?
When I read the resignation letters, I didn’t get the impression that this is about a difference of perspectives. Instead, what comes through loudest to me is that all of these elders describe hitting a brick wall in terms of being able to even hold conversations as a group of elders on critical topics. How is this an “elder-led” church if the board can’t even have discussions in which there are different perspectives even if the discussions are uncomfortable or difficult?
Isn’t Steven King confirming point made the elders who resigned who conveyed a sense of hitting a brick wall when trying to have discussions when in response he categorically states that the rest of the leadership has a different perspective than they do?
The elders announced a decision not to release the GRACE report to the congregation after they received these elders’ resignation letters imploring them to do so. I am wondering how the remaining elders reconcile that stance with faithfulness to the church constitution?
ARTICLE IV: CONGREGATIONAL AUTHORITY
The Church shall be Christ ruled, elder led, and congregationally accountable, with its governance vested in the members and administered by the Board of Elders, the Board of Deacons and the pastoral staff.
ARTICLE V: GOVERNMENT
The government of the church, under the leadership of the Holy Spirit, shall be vested in its members and administered by the Board of Elders and Deacons, whose authority is derived from and limited by the Articles of this Constitution and the Bylaws.
https://biblechurch.org/about/constitution/
When the remaining 34 elders decided to protect staff by not releasing the GRACE report did they even discuss whether that decision was consistent with the language in their own constitution that states that the church is elder led and congregationally accountable?
Do they disagree with statement made twice in the church constitution which says that governance is “vested in the members.” Definitions of “vested” from Merriam Webster
a: to grant or endow with a particular authority, right, or property
the plan vests workers with pension benefits after 10 years of service
b: to place or give into the possession or discretion of some person or authority
especially : to give to a person a legally fixed immediate right of present or future enjoyment of (such as an estate)
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vest
By the way, interested readers can use the link to the church constitution and with a couple more clicks, see who is on the elder board and what percentage are both staff and elders.
First of all, do their actions demonstrate that they believe that
How can they be accountable to the congregation if the congregation doesn’t know the facts? How can the congregation exercise its duty to hold the elders accountable if the elders withhold what congregants need to know in order to carry out that responsibility?
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Max,
The Arrogance of being God’s Special Pets.
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Todd Wilhelm,
I imagine that if we didn’t have books like:
https://www.amazon.com/Somethings-Not-Right-Decoding-Abuse/dp/1496444701
elders like these wouldn’t be aware of what was going on like they were. Glad that people are starting to discuss this.
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“How can the congregation exercise its duty to hold the elders accountable if the elders withhold what congregants need to know in order to carry out that responsibility?”
This highlights the dilemma and paradox of an independent, elder-led “church”: How can anyone expect the elders of an elder-led church to address, let alone fix, the key problem, when that problem is the church is an elder-led church? And the congregation, who are supposed to have authority over the elders, have no means to exercise their authority?
I see no hope for this type of church, and CHBC in particular. Surely, such a church is doomed and only fit to be spat out by Christ, because it has lost its first love.
This is a classic example of a church driving those who have been most involved and faithful in serving Christ, to become part of the millions who are done with the institutional church.
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Exactly. Congregational governance provides a check & balance to pastors and elders who are failing the church in some way. An elder-rule system is an accident waiting to happen when an authoritarian pastor controls yes-men elders. IMO, congregational polity is the intended model for doing church.
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Perhaps the fastest growing group of Christians in America are the “Dones” … done with church, but not done with Jesus. A large percentage of those exiting the institutional church are fleeing New Calvinist churches where church leaders manipulate, intimidate and dominate church members. Real-deal Christians don’t want anything to do with this mess.
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To which the elders who resigned would shout AMEN! Their resignation letters clearly indicate that they are folks who charted an uncomfortable course to do the right thing with the right perspective. The rest of the elders either don’t have the spiritual insight to see the mess at CHBC for what it is, loyal to the dudebros at the top, too afraid to make a stand, or they are controlled by the pastor(s).
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Max,
Speaking of services tomorrow… May I ask some advice?
We’ve been attending (sporadically) a small non-denom that survived the last two years without a pastor, and just hired an interim. It feels like the Island of Misfit Toys, so we fit right in. There are three elders, one of whom is a woman. I get the idea the new interim pastor is on the young side, but am a terrible judge of ages even in my own ethnicity.
Anywho, given how the sermon on 1 Timothy 2:8-10 was preached last week, pretty sure the (male) pastor is strongly complementarian. I am not. My husband is “soft” (and getting softer) complementarian, and asked me to stay home for this upcoming sermon on the “I do not permit a woman to teach” passage so that I don’t literally hyperventilate in the middle of the service. So I am planning to watch from the comfort and safety of my own home.
Assuming the sermon goes as I anticipate… How do you approach something like this for an interim pastor? Do you go into it assuming good intentions but naivety on the part of the pastor? Is it worth trying to plant a seed? Last week’s sermon was also one-sided in the “forgive” category, but insightful in other areas. My read on the situation (which could be way off, granted) is lack of roundedness due to lack of experience.
My husband openly acknowledges he used to feel the same way but has mellowed (being further removed from seminary and working in the real world has helped, imo), so I know softening is possible, but also a (long) process. Or touch base with an elder to see what the church’s official stance on the issue is?
I know just walking away is an option, and it’s not been crossed out, but I’m not quite ready to cross that bridge without exploring other options, first.
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DNA IS FOR AMOEBAS AND ALGAE
(referring to all the lookalike churches)
The “christian” web page industry has taken the p**s of them all: identical tabs and pull-downs
As a single I think you need a church for more than / different than a pastor / preacher. Especially one who preaches on three verses. (A sermon should be about a chapter or two PLUS all marginal references / the range of liturgical Old and New Testament readings of the week).
Randomly and tentatively:
Are midweek groups any use? How beautiful is the flower arranging?
Do they use acoustic instruments? Are the hymn books in the pews?
Do they start with Scripture and leave so called “worship” till the end? Has the new bloke just changed this?
Don’t be deceived by “groomed” looks
What Bible school did the interim come from?
How flexible are they about people who sit out from “communion”?
Ask the lady elder for her opinions and keep asking her every few weeks. She’ll probably be glad to be befriended by any non-elder (as elders always secretly are).
Always ask for unofficial as well as official “stances” (the latter will never make sense in the best of cases).
Does your region or “stream” have a “circuit” / “apostles” / “rural deans” and what is the trend?
Is the “church handbook” being “revised”?
In case the interim is out to scare you off (standard strategy): I recommend you choose startling, original, imaginative, extra curricular, unconventional, reasons to make a fuss – AFTER you are calm about your decision.
Call out to the Almighty!
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Wild Honey on Sun Mar 06, 2022 at 12:30 AM said:
“…this upcoming sermon on the “I do not permit a woman to teach” passage”
++++++++++++
you could talk to him and explain how degrading and demeaning it is to hear such information.
he’s clueless and needs to understand how the point of view he’s adopted impacts half the church, half the world… but more importantly, you, the person he’s face to face with in conversation.
he will doubtless respond with, “equal value but different roles”.
to which you could reply,
“no, it’s dehumanizing, both in theory and in practice.
you are effectively putting duct tape over the mouths of half the congregation.
and it is astonishingly foolish to silence their wisdom and understanding, which would have spared you and this church from encountering many problems and heading in wrong directions.”
You could then rightfully challenge him with the fact that if he’s going to present one perspective as ‘truth’ ignoring the widely differing views on the topic, the very least he could do is present the differing views and the problems with each.
but of course he most likely doesn’t even know the logical and theological problems with his own position.
he needs to know, otherwise he is indoctrinating people rather than sharing with them tools to understand and reason for themselves.
and only a woman can set him straight on these things.
there is no reason not to be direct.
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Wild Honey on Sun Mar 06, 2022 at 12:30 AM
i know you asked max for advice. sorry i jumped in, there.
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Thank you for making me laugh. As someone who prefers simple and clean, the flower arranging is terrible, actually, but I can put up with it. It got better once the holiday season passed and they took down all the extra decorations.
These are good questions. Many were on my radar, but not all. And a lot of them will only get answered with time.
I don’t understand what you’re getting at with this question, could you please elaborate? – “Does your region or ‘stream’ have a ‘circuit’ / ‘apostles’ / ‘rural deans’ and what is the trend?”
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Yes… I think I am just having a “can’t someone else take a turn at addressing this” moment.
Being both a woman and direct is what got my knuckles rapped the last two times I did something like this. It was not a pleasant experience.
But it did expose poor character (on the other person’s part) more quickly, so I suppose there’s that.
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elastigirl,
I appreciate your insight, actually.
I don’t mind people jumping in. Not that this is the case with you, but sometimes I ask for advice from people who I think are making bad decisions, just so I have a better understanding of what NOT to do. Enlightening from a whole different angle.
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The equal value different roles is in the NT x 3 and it has nothing to do with gender.
Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12, Ephesians 4.
Questions for pastors and teachers:
1. Do you equally value members of the Body of Christ with the gift of discernment?
2. Do you listen to those with the gift of discernment as much as you expect church members to listen to you?
3. Do those with the gift of discernment have a voice in your church community?
Different roles, equal value. Equal standing, same voice time.
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= Young, Restless & Reformed … but, if you have doubts about that, ask him “If I say John Piper, what do you say?”
My initial impression is that this guy knows exactly what he is doing. He has bought the New Calvinist lie. These young rebels only have a handful of sermons, which parrot NeoCal leaders … the ones you mention are in his sermon file to use over and over to indoctrinate.
Planting a seed? Elastigirl gives good advice in her reply to you “challenge him … be direct.” That’s what I’ve been doing on my end for years in encounters with YRR pastors at church plants in my area. If you don’t do it now, before he becomes the permanent pastor at your “Misfit Toys” church and changes everything about belief and practice there, you will be facing discipline, shunning, and excommunication if you (as a woman) open your mouth. My gut feel is that this youngster desires to conquer the church for the New Calvinist movement, that’s how they get recognition and move up the NeoCal pyramid.
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“Efective propaganda consists of Simplification and Repetition.”
— Reichsminster Josef Goebbels
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When you squeeze someone, the real person comes out. It’s uncomfortable and awkward, but it saves time and misery waiting to find out who they really are.
As a side-note, attending the Church of the Living God should be refreshing not exhausting. You sound exhausted trying to do church without God, as many Wartburgers are. There are just too many agendas, too many counterfeits in the pulpit, too much illegitimate authority being exercised, too much theological noise to worship in most churches these days (New Calvinism is exhausting). That’s why the Done ranks are swelling … done with the institutional church, but not done with Jesus. Certainly, there are some genuine real-deal pulpits and pews scattered across the American landscape … but finding them is like looking for a rare and endangered species, a needle in a haystack, a treasure buried in the field. If you are fortunate to find one, get in it, support it, love it, protect it, be free in Christ, use your spiritual gifts, pursue the Great Commission together.
Church history records that those who have made a difference for the cause of Christ have had their knuckles rapped by counterfeit leaders. Things are not going to get any better unless folks with some spiritual sense and backbone stand in the gap. Genuine revival in the church and spiritual awakening in the nation have a cost.
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The two current best examples of that can be found in Russia and New Calvinism.
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elastigirl,
Well said elastigirl, well said.
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Wild Honey on Sun Mar 06, 2022 at 09:52 AM said:
“Being both a woman and direct is what got my knuckles rapped the last two times I did something like this. It was not a pleasant experience.
But it did expose poor character (on the other person’s part) more quickly, so I suppose there’s that.”
++++++++++++++++++
Yes, there’s that. in fact, he’d be making your point for you. to which you could reply,
“Elmer, you’re making my point for me.”
Wild Honey continued.
“I’ve come to you with genuine concern. I’m presenting it as intelligently and concisely as I can. I’ve said nothing uncharitable. And you are responding to me as if I’m the problem and I’ve done something very wrong.
In fact, I’ve observed successful conversations of this nature between my husband and pastors, where what he had to say was taken into consideration and he was thanked, appreciated, and affirmed.
I’m sort of modeling my presentation after that.
Elmer, if my husband were speaking to you right now, would you be chastising him as if he was an unruly child or puppy?
In all honesty, I expect to be treated as an adult and a human, with respect. The way I am treated in ‘the world’, quite frankly.
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Wild Honey,
I know they claimed to be “non denom” but there may be some sort of chain of preferred associates / overseers of theirs.
Most important question:
– their attitude to interceding
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Max,
Thank you, Max. I appreciate your wisdom.
Yes, I am exhausted. Church is only one piece of that puzzle, and it’s the piece that (unless you’re John Piper, I suppose) falls at the bottom of the priority list. Certainly above aging and ailing family members, a struggling child, and friendships with those who are life-giving.
I’ve had church before that is life-giving. I miss it.
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Ironic, isn’t it? You’re not the first woman I’ve known whose made that connection. Maybe that’s why leadership preaches against us being “in the world” so much. We go getting ideas.
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That’s one of the reasons I comment here. Younger believers may have never known such churches, experiencing the reality of the presence of God and the fellowship of other believers. I’ve been a Christian for 70+ years … I’ve seen the good, the bad, and the ugly in church … I’ve never seen the institutional church in such spiritual decline. I pray daily for God’s people to snap back to their senses, humble themselves and pray as they ought. We are in desperate need of a genuine revival in our churches and spiritual awakening in our nation.
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One thing that continues to puzzle many of the ”concerned congregants” at CHBC is the willingness of the associate pastors to follow Jay Thomas down this path of career suicide and compromised witness. How will Roddy Dinsmore, Matt Smith, Mark Hampton, Ryan McKee, Malcolm Pettigrew, Geoff Grant, and other staff explain themselves to potential future employers? And how does this church have so many pastors and so few community outreach services/activities? What do all these guys (plus a few interim ministers and a fleet of young, impressionable interns) do all day? Just cover for Jay and tend to his ego?
My understanding is they are falling woefully behind budget and losing a lot of members. What will they do when the money and the suckers run out?
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Max,
And supporters of you know who….
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Good point.
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Ten years ago or more a Calvinist pastor said the quiet part out loud.
There was a report or similar from one pastor to a new to a non Calvinist church pastor that talked about how he needed to bring his new church “calling” to the correct and proper form of “church”. It would take a while. You gradually bring them around. And gradually change the church governance to the proper elder led model. (Which one installed cannot not be removed. By design.)
It basically said. Don’t tell them what you are doing. But purge the old ways and install the new. Put up on a sermon every few weeks that implies the old ways were wrong and you have the new correct way. It’s all to the glory of God. And if some old time member leave, well they just maybe were not really Christians. Because all REAL Christians are Cavlinist.
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Wild Honey,
I’m a latecomer to this discussion, but I was struck by your phrase “just hired an interim” pastor, followed by the information that he is leading off with fragments of Timothy for his sermon texts as opposed to, say, the Sermon on the Mount.
It seems to me that this is a bright red flag with a screaming siren on top. It tells you that his highest priority is putting women “in their place” (according to the men who taught him).
If it’s worth it to you, I suggest, as elastigirl did, that the most efficient approach would be a polite but direct one, “I consider this line of teaching to be exclusionary and completely inappropriate,” or words to that effect. The reaction will tell you what you want to know.
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A new head pastor at a local mega ghosted the white haired… and lost the major donors. He figured it out, eventually, too late.
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Within SBC, the “New” Calvinists don’t conceal their agenda like the “Old” Calvinists did for years. SBC’s Founders Ministry actually wrote a how-to playbook called “A Quiet Revolution” to encourage reformed stealth pastors to be “quiet” and take it slow as they indoctrinated traditional (non-Calvinist) Southern Baptists to the “truth” (see link below). The ole boys may not agree with the method and message of the NeoCals, but they put up with them since they are working toward the same goal: to Calvinize a once-great non-Calvinist denomination which was admired throughout the world for whosoever-will-may-come evangelism and mission. That SBC is over … the Conservative (aka Calvinist) Resurgence put an end to its identity as a soul-winning people of God.
https://founders.org/library/quiet-revolution/
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Yeah, they torture Scripture to deal with these dirty rotten reprobates – that the old members were not of the elect and predestined to damnation:
“They went out from us [seeming at first to be Christians], but they were not really of us [because they were not truly born again and spiritually transformed]; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out [teaching false doctrine], so that it would be clearly shown that none of them are of us” (1 John 2:19 AMP).
So the New Calvinists use false doctrine to convince those who remain that non-Calvinists teach false doctrine. What a mess!
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All across SBC, the young reformers who take over traditional (non-Calvinist) churches are finding out when they split churches and run off the old members (who paid for the building and assets they plunder), were the ones also paying the utility bills! Darn, they should have thought of that and moved a bit slower in stealth and deception until they recruited enough like-minded members to offset the loss in income. There is nothing “of God” about the NeoCal modus operandi.
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In my neck of the woods, the NeoCal dudebros gather each day at local coffee shops, high-fiving and comparing Piper notes. They are far too crazy busy to minister to folks in the community. You sure the heck won’t find them visiting the sick in hospitals, praying with the dying in nursing homes, preaching funerals, handing out groceries to the desperate, or other such things that “pastors” do. I guess it was predestined for them to tweet their lives away at the coffee shop.
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CHBCregular,
CHBCregular,
In my humble (but accurate) opinion, the underlying problem at your church is New Calvinism. I haven’t heard anyone from there (including the elders who resigned) point to that as the core issue. You need to know that the behavior of church leaders you point out is quite common in NeoCal ranks … they are an arrogant bunch who believe they alone hold truth, the elect of God, come into the world for such a time as this to restore the “gospel” that has been lost. And, if they have to be mean-spirited to accomplish the mission they are on from God … well, it was predestined for them to be ugly so everybody just needs to get over it!
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The moment in the sun for NeoCal preachers is on “Sun”day, where they show up to torture Scripture until it supports their theology. They come in to slam-dunk reformed indoctrination for an hour or so, then disappear for the rest of the week.
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Wild Honey on Sun Mar 06, 2022 at 12:30 AM said:
Hi, Wild Honey. Well, I can’t help but be curious as to the sermon yesterday, and your observations.
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Max,
Verses about men’s and women’s roles come up in our lectionary occasionally, maybe twice a year among Corinthians, Timothy, and Titus. My pastor says things like, “Everyone in the family needs to work hard at treating one another well and getting along,” and then he moves on. It’s just not a priority.
However, when a speaker who is choosing his own subject choose to emphasize those verses immediately, that’s like a CLUE about him.
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Max,
Pied Piperism.
Interesting term.
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Indeed. For a young pastor to move “gender roles” front and center as an interim pastor is a red flag that he’s a New Calvinist. I bet if you look closely, he is carrying an ESV Bible with it dog-eared in Romans and Ephesians (they love to twist Paul’s epistles).
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In Robert Browning’s re-write of Grimm’s Pied Piper story, the parents of the 120 children lured away by the Piper just stood and watched as their children skipped away. Mature believers in the Body of Christ are essentially doing that as we lose our youth to New Calvinism.
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CHBCregular,
I have also wondered “what they do all day” and never been able to figure it out. I do not buy the Starbucks answer. I do not think the issue is limited to NeoCal churches either, as there are other Mega Churches featured on this blog that have had the same issues.
I sure do not think they are studying and preparing sermons either, nor are they preparing to teach Sunday School or other classes since from what I can tell, that is on the decline in churches. Many churches do small groups and the pastors do not even attend them.
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Cynthia W.,
Good point. In his defense, his first sermon series was “What Jesus Tells the Pharisees,” and focused on the gospels. This series on 1 Timothy is his second. When my husband heard, he got a little nervous, too, given the number of potential landmines in the epistle.
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elastigirl,
I haven’t listened yet! I’m having minor (fingers crossed) surgery tomorrow, so we spent the weekend having fun with the kids and getting things prepped for me to be out of commission for a few days. I’ll hopefully give an update later this week 🙂
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Wild Honey,
And apparently whenever I’m told that I can’t take medicine for three days for surgery prep, that’s when the headaches decide to hit. Go figure.
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I prayed for you just now.
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Yeah, the dudebros could be at other hangouts through the day.
Agreed, many American churches from mini to mega, from NeoCal to NoCal, from elder-rule to congregational polity have authoritarian abusive pastors. This sin knows no theological bounds … doing church without God has become rather common under such leaders.
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Hmmm … this guy may not be a New Calvinist after all … they avoid the Gospels and the words written in red, preferring to twist and distort Paul’s epistles for their sermons.
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They can buy them online now or borrow one from Piper.
“I am against the counterfeit prophets” says the Lord, these who steal My words from one another” (Jeremiah 23:30)
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New Calvinist “LifeGroups” which meet weekly have been known to be places where the pastor can keep a finger on the pulse of the church … through loyal small group leaders (wannabe elders) who report back to him on members who question pastor’s sermons or express concerns about belief and practice of the church.
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It’s also part of the process of turning people into bots who have trouble passing the Turing test.
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Well, that’s something. It depends what the pastor said about the Gospels, of course!
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It appears that there is another pandemic. One that is also destroying many. NeoCal. It doesn’t require that you wear a mask, but a muzzle. If you have an independent thought or dare to speak out against the NeoCal maniacs you are muzzled. Death by muzzle is justified and not met with any remorse.
The NeoCal pandemic has done so much damage to so many. CHBC is chief among them. It has many broken people scattered around the Triangle. I wonder what the total is!
Many are now spiritually crushed.
Loving well is not going too well there.
Male egos are spewing all over the place.
Truth tellers are brutally hushed.
Minorities. are almost a thing of the past. They had a Black, female minister when Jay was hired. No more. There is probably a story there.
The resigning elders didn’t miss anything. I know because I’ve been intently watching. They touched on all the things that helped to elevate CHBC as one the best at the NeoCal destruction “ministry.” No wonder they don’t want the report shared.
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Wild Honey on Mon Mar 07, 2022 at 06:52 PM said:
“…minor (fingers crossed) surgery tomorrow”
+++++++++++++++
i’ll pray my best prayer.
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I don’t usually take sermon notes. The first sermon in the “What Jesus Tells the Pharisees” series, I wrote something down because I liked it and wanted to remember it, not because it struck me as odd and I wanted to go and research it later. That hasn’t happened in a long time, and was a good feeling.
He was looking at the parables of the lost sheep and lost coins (Luke 15:1-10). “The Pharisee is trying to get to God. But this parable tells us that Jesus comes to us.” It was in the context of leaving behind legalism.
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elastigirl,
Thank you!
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That is a great comment. It is one that hits home for me. I have been observing this since 2009. I was so sad that it came to CHBC.
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I believe this is the story that many of these guys use to show just how spiritual they are. They can hide in their office and not take calls because “they are preparing.”I seem to remember that Jay was going to start these great discussion groups at local pubs. That’s what he said, anyway. Then, he took off after sermons and hid in his office. He then claims he is “shy.” CHBC folks were conned.
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Permit me to give some insight into this. I suppose you noticed that Eric McKiddie got a plum job at the PCA church at Hilton Head? How do you think that happened? Do you think Jay had anything to do with it? Of did the theodudes at The Gospel Coalition or 9 Marx help him out? These bros help each other out-pushing their books, getting them a speaking engagement. part-time teaching jobs at seminaries, etc. You can be sure that they will be taken care of.
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CHBCregular,
PS Everything changed when Jay came.
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Weekly NeoCal small groups typically indoctrinate the “bots” using Piper et al. books as study materials.
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IW, you have nailed consequences of the New Calvinist movement well. The new reformers have left a trail of broken churches, misery and confusion as their theological plague infects communities across America. This is why so many of us on TWW work to inform and warn the Body of Christ about this “pandemic” (theodemic?). Thanks for intently watching and commenting.
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Hmmm. This reminds me of the first sermon that a young reformer preached to a search committee in a local non-Calvinist church for a church plant they were considering in a nearby university community. It was a grand emotion-filled presentation of the last days of Jesus’ ministry leading to His crucifixion (I was there, I heard it). He swayed the vote and got the job, only to proceed to plant reformed theology, instead of a Gospel church, and hardly ever mentioned Jesus’ name again … while being paid by the non-Calvinist parent church! Stealth and deception at its best.
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dee on Tue Mar 08, 2022 at 10:24 AM said:
“Then, he took off after sermons and hid in his office. He then claims he is “shy.” CHBC folks were conned.”
+++++++++++++++++
seems to me Jay has some kind of celebrity complex…
whisked straight to his dressing room… so worn out from his tony-award-worthy performance… the fans, oh the fans, why can’t the little people just stay in their lane… fame is such a burden.
what a ridiculous state of affairs.
jay thomas, you crack me up.
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Thoughtful charges and explanations, praying that others in leadership there would hear and heed loving counsel.
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Jeremy on Tue Mar 08, 2022 at 05:04 PM said:
“Thoughtful charges and explanations, praying that others in leadership there would hear and heed loving counsel.”
++++++++++++++++
why can’t christians simply be direct and straightforward? why the ‘loving’ caveat?
“This is wrong. It is wrong because…”
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elastigirl,
I’m complimenting the elders on their letter and implying that they are showing love to their church and the leadership by saying hard things.
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elastigirl,
Also, loving is not a caveat but command from Christ so Christians should be loving while Also being direct.
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elastigirl,
Also, loving is not a caveat but command from Christ so Christians should be loving while Also being direct.
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Reminds me of a church we visited once where no one … no one … talked to us. On the way out, I told the pastor “You’ve sure got a bunch of unfriendly people here.” He replied “Oh, they aren’t unfriendly, they are shy.” I responded “All of them?! Nah, they’re just unfriendly. Have a good life.” We never returned. Some churches just have a spirit resting on them that you can discern more easily than others. It’s obvious that Pastor Jay has something on him.
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Being direct falls in the “speak the truth in love” category.
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i agree, it is entirely compatible with love to say hard things.
i have a hard time with the christian concept of love/loving, though.
christian leaders redefine it to suit their purposes (to maintain control and revenue), at the expense of the little people.
on the one hand, many christian leaders redefine love to be all kinds of cruel things that are unreasonable and actually destructive. but only they are allowed to wield this kind of twisted love.
on the other hand, many christian leaders beat the ‘loving’ drum beat when confronted with things in a direct way, making the messenger the problem since there was apparently no self-effacing sugar-coating.
and i observe christian culture is too timid, spineless, and flaccid to stand up for what is right and speak out against wrong from within because of a preoccupation with “loving” in which there is no room for confronting with hard truths.
and i further observe that this is done out of self-interest: so they themselves don’t cross any lines so they can stay in God’s good graces, and so they can protect what’s in it for them (their church clubs, their favorite gurus and celebrities, etc).
.
.
but perhaps we are in agreement here, too.
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elastigirl,
I would say that what they are doing in the scenarios you described is not loving, it may be polite or it may be political but probably not loving. I don’t think we have to surrender a word simply because someone misuses it. I also would also say some churches and some Christian’s hide their timidity behind being loving or winsome is a word I hear a lot but the church also does hard things when the gospel is central. I always enjoy reading your responses elastigirl whether we agree or not.
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elastigirl,
As always elastigirl, I like how you cut through all the pretty wrapping and satin ribbons and expose the stinking horse poo-poo beneath.
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Jeremy on Tue Mar 08, 2022 at 11:18 PM said:
bah
i think i could sump up I corinthians 13 as don’t be a jacka$$.
(That frees us all to not have to wade through a molasses swamp to get things done.)
“hiding behind”…. this silly religion of mine in practice makes Jesus a human shield to hide behind to protect everything childish and self-centered.
Gospel-Schmospel… it means so many things as to mean nothing any more.
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Muff Potter on Tue Mar 08, 2022 at 11:35 PM said:
some days a pine cone for breakfast is just the thing.
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Recent article by Rev Jay is pretty ironic: https://twitter.com/crossway/status/1501344515742916615?s=21
(Note the NIV does not interpret I Cor 16:13 in this gendered way)
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WartWatchFan,
He had to resort to the King James version and some other rarely quoted Bibles .to squeeze this out of it.
https://biblia.com/bible/esv/1-corinthians/16/13
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WartWatchFan,
1 Corinthians
Jay S. Thomas
This 12-week study leads readers through the book of 1 Corinthians, highlighting how the gospel of Jesus Christ replaces pride with love and unites Christians to God and to each other.
The description of the study and the actions of the author don’t align. Full stop. Love, by and large, left the building when NeoCalist Jay arrived. Pride became the driving force. Loving well had been a hallmark of the church. Unity took on new meaning as well. There’s biblical unity and there NeoCal unity. The two can not co-exist. The latter now dominates CHBC. NeoCal snuffed out biblical unity.
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You will never hear “love” used to characterize a NeoCal minister or ministry. “Arrogance” is the most common descriptor. “You will know them by their love” left the house when this bunch came in like a flood to disrupt Gospel churches in America.
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Straight out of the ESV, which is unsurprising, given that Grudem was on the translation committee.
Ironic indeed!
“The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses. Therefore, whatever they tell you, do and comply with it all, but do not do as they do; for they say things and do not do them.” Matt 23:2-3
Volodymyr Zelensky has become an icon of moral courage precisely because his actions embody the beauty of his words. It would have been reasonable for him to form a government in exile and preserve the elected government of Ukraine. But instead, he chose to lead from among his people, placing himself in the literal line of fire, and being an example of courage that they could follow.
Jay Thomas writes words about love and moral courage. Will he, like Zelensky, put his words into actions and demonstrate moral courage? Or will he “say things and not do them?”
Does it show moral courage for any of the pastors to allow your elders to circle the wagons around you and other staff and declare that they will not release the GRACE report because it might hurt some of the staff? Is being “taken out of the line of fire” worth increasing the mistrust felt by a significant number of the people in your congregation?
To lead in moral courage would be for each elder to ask himself if he truly believes the words of Jesus when He says, “The truth will set you free.” Does he believe that the truth sets the culpable and complicit free to experience redemption? Does he believe the truth will set free those who were damaged by church leaders ? Will the truth set the church community free to trust again? Will it set the elder or pastor himself free? It takes moral courage to seek truth when expediency favors hiding at least part of it.
To lead in moral courage as a pastor at the Chapel Hill Bible Church in this moment would be to let go of the desire to control the narrative and to throw off the desire for emotional protection and instead support the release of the full report from GRACE. Do you trust God enough to relinquish control?
To actually lead in moral courage would be to demonstrate such complete faith in what Jesus has done for you that you can face the truth about yourself unafraid.
If the truth exonerates you, moral courage and love will enable you to respond in grace and humility. If the truth reveals sin, moral courage will enable you to accept full responsibility and fully and publicly confess that sin. Moral courage and love for people who were harmed will motivate you to share the truth with their community so they can be reintegrated. Moral courage and love for the church would empower leadership to take the actions that are necessary to restore the purity of the church.
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The ESV is notorious for its interpretation of Genesis 3:16. The theodudes had some fun with that one.
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Eyewitness,
They believe moral courage is doing precisely what they are doing. Authority is a heavy mantle to wear and they believe they know how to wear it well.
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Eyewitness,
I have a hard time reading the ESV due to Genesis 3:16. It’s the women who war against their husbands.