Cross and Cracks on Wall link
In this brief transit where the dreams cross
The dream-crossed twilight between birth and dying,
Ash Wednesday.”
– T.S. Eliot, ‘Ash Wednesday’.
Today is Ash Wednesday. I will be attending church tonight and will receive the ashes. For me, this is a solemn occasion as I contemplate my sin, the death that it will cause, and the death of our Lord to save me. I am blessed more than most because I have a church that has been incredibly supportive, caring, and challenging. However, it was not that way for many years after I arrived in Raleigh in 2001. I watched my SBC church mishandle, in my opinion, the claims of many young teen boys molested by a Southeastern Baptist Seminary student who was “volunteering” at the church. That was followed by being hurt by the pastor of an Anglican church who was close friends with the Baptist pastor. Enough was enough. We decided to make the drive to Chapel Hill each Sunday to attend a church we “knew was good,” Chapel Hill Bible Church. We had attended there years before when we lived in Durham. Little did we know that the church would become the latest causality in the Reformed theodudes movement. The arrival of Pastor Jay Thomas would change the entire dynamic of the church.
I was blogging at the time, and I knew that Thomas would deal with me in typical dudebro fashion, so we left ahead of the inevitable. It was a sad time for us since we had spent ten years of our lives at this church. Yet the church we knew was no more, and it was time to go wandering in the post-evangelical wilderness while seeking a decent church. It was been a hard time for us. We ended up drifting between a couple of the megachurch nondenominational churches, which were really Southern Baptist, but that was kept on the down-low.
Then Bill challenged me to find a non-megachurch that had Saturday evening services. That included a Lutheran church which was 15 minutes from our home. Both Bill and I had attended Lutheran churches during college, but the landscape changed, and the nondenominational thing was all the rage. The first night there, we were startled. We loved it. Finally, after two years of attendance, we joined. Years later, it has not disappointed. Our pastors are kind, loving, and gifted. The membership is friendly and welcoming. We are at peace.
Todd and I have something in common. Todd told me how his discernment should be called into question because he attended a Sovereign Grace Church and then a 9 Marx Church(I can’t help myself.) However, the same could be said of me in the last 20 odd years. Thankfully, this final church has allowed us to cease our wanderings and given us a home.
We will always love the old Chapel Hill Bible Church, which is no more. While we were there, it seemed like some sort of sin to admit to loving the old church. My coverage of the travails of this church has been met with anger by some elders who were my elders for a long, long time. I guess I never knew them, and they indeed didn’t care to know me. TWW will always support those who attempt to change the climate of a cold church into a vibrant fellowship. I believe that is what those many (83+) lovely members who are dissidents are trying to do. That is a significant number of decent people who object to the status quo. Yet, they appear to be looked at as trouble makers, seeking to impede the work of the “godly” church leaders.
The G.R.A.C.E investigation
For background, here are previous posts on the matter.
Chapel Hill Bible Church: Pastor Eric McKiddie Is Gone and Pastor Jay Thomas Is Under Fire
My involvement led to me being sidelined by a community group I helped for years. For those couple of docs who complained, you exemplify what happened to CHBC. But, you gave me more time to write.
So when the church hired GRACE to do an investigation, I was pleased. I reassured some people that the truth would come out since they do their homework carefully and thoroughly. I assumed the church was going to play fair. But, then again, a Calvinista takeover of the church rarely exudes”fairness” and can often be a downright miserable experience.
The resignations of four elders
Shades of Piper’s Bethlehem Baptist Church! CHBC has developed an odd leadership model. They have 38 elders (less four at the moment.) But some of them are standing elders, which means they aren’t serving at the moment unless they are called in. From what I have been told, the actual leadership of the elders is limited to a tiny fraction of this group. I was once in a church with 80 deacons. I was told that it was an excellent way to get people to tithe. Who knows in this case since the church is reportedly well under 1,000 actual members.
When one sees elders abruptly resign after 80+ members of the membership raise significant concerns, one can be sure this church is in trouble.
The following video is an announcement of the remaining elders. Steven King is the elder chair.
20220227 – Steven King’s Address from Chapel Hill Bible Church on Vimeo.
Summation
Problem 1: The church leadership will not release the entire “difficult” GRACE report, only a summation because it will be used to harm the staff.
King admits that the past year was filled with challenging moments. The four elders criticized the leadership for refusing to release the entire GRACE report to the membership. The congregation will only get a summary of that report. King admits the assessment will be difficult. No wonder he doesn’t want it to be released.
He claims that he wants to “protect the health” of those who work in the church. I thought all members worked in the church. In this case, it appears that those who really work in the church are those who get paid money. Guess who pays their salaries? The members shell out the tithes for this to occur. These members are merely ATMs on legs who don’t really work in the church like those who collect salaries from the money.
It gets worse. Here is what King really thinks of the members. The GRACE report could be used to harm the staff! Why would that be? Did some of the staff do something awful? If so, why aren’t the members told? If not, why would the report or the members harm the staff?
Then, he appears to manipulate the listeners by saying that the staff received “hurtful comments” as they worked to serve the congregation. Isn’t it time to pull on the big boy pants and learn to deal with it? Somehow I find it difficult to believe that the staff is not strong enough to take a little criticism now and then. After all, it is part of any job. Many doctors must attend mortality and morbidity (M+M)conferences in which doctors critique one another on how they care for patients. I’m sure a few feelings get hurt, but the patients benefit. It sure sounds like we need to have M+M conferences at the church.
The following statement is interesting. He said, “We support our church staff as they lead.” Uh oh. It’s clear the administrative assistants don’t lead. He must not be talking about the entire staff. He is talking about the leaders. Folks, could it be that he is referring to pastors? Maybe the “difficult” GRACE report is going to affect the pastors. If some of the pastors are not serving the congregation well, the members should hear about it.
Problem 2: The four elders who resigned pointed out racial issues in the church.
This surprised me and made me realize that I had been gone for a while. The CHBC that I remember was more diverse than other churches I have attended. According to King, the church is now less diverse than it has been in the past.
- Many Asian people have left the church.
- The thriving Korean and Chinese ministries are not what they used to be.
- Many African Americans have expressed their unhappiness with the church and are leaving for other fellowships.
Final thought
There is a serious leadership problem at the church. Have you ever seen a patient who has malignant melanoma? Sometimes, the patient isn’t aware of it since it can be just a tiny, discolored spot. Yet that tiny spot can cause cancer to spread throughout all major organs, and sometimes it is too late to treat effectively. At CHBC, I believe the leader is responsible for this mess. It is apparent that King and the in-crowd elders are protecting paid leader(s) responsible for the chaos that has deeply wounded this lovely church. Perhaps it is just one more failure of the Young, Restless and Reformed crowd. There’s been a lot of that lately. CHBC may be one more casualty.
I agree with you Dee. I watched the video and I am wondering if it is possible that this guy is between a rock and a hard place. I am assuming that he is doing this without pay and maybe he just feels called to be there Do you think it is possible that he is being sincere without being a yes-man?
I also agree that we should strive for diversity. But sometimes the efforts to attain diversity end up looking unnatural or forced, even when good people are doing their best. Maybe it is because we put human effort into it rather than seeking wisdom from above. I may sound like a knucklehead for saying that. But I am not so sure that lack of diversity equates to racism.
I am just throwing those thoughts out there because I enjoyed reading the blog. I do not know any of the people at that church.
1
By the way………. 1st. Just kidding.
deserved
The four Elder letters are public and have more info
The four elder letters are public: https://biblechurch.us15.list-manage.com/track/click?u=8cfc479641d7ebf905ca9b6bf&id=5814df54ef&e=467aba9bfd
“that tiny spot can cause cancer to spread throughout all major organs, and sometimes it is too late to treat effectively.”
Yes. That’s all it takes.
There is a false belief that a healthy community can reform a miscreant. As if the abundant good will of a community will overwhelm and outdo the misguided, misdirected and insidious bad.
Truth: one bad apple spoils the whole bunch.
“An apple that is infested with mold will contaminate other fruit it’s stored with as the mold seeks additional food sources and spreads. It actually does take just one single apple to start a domino chain that ruins the rest of the bunch.”
Putin has now targeted civilians with cruise missile attacks.
The difference in this church is that the formerly diverse church is seeing a decline in various groups which were longtime members or associates of the church.
No. He will not release the full report and is protecting the staff leadership.
Muff Potter,
I am so upset with what is happening.
This was recorded the last Sunday in February. The GRACE report is due out in May. How is it that they’ve already concluded that the report could be used to “cause harm” to their leaders? Why are they not expecting the GRACE report to commend what they have done in the wake of learning of the deep damage to other staff and congregants by Eric McKiddie? He’s not there any more, so they took some important steps. Or are they aware of sin among themselves that has not been addressed?
Otherwise, why, without even seeing the document, have they decided the document “could be used to cause harm to their staff?”
If we give them the benefit of the doubt that they fully intend to take the GRACE report very seriously , even in places that might address their failures, then this was still a tone deaf move. How is it any different than what would be done if a group was intentionally covering something up?
I can’t think of a better way to give people a reason to believe there is an intent to whitewash, to hide the dead bones, than to announce so far ahead of time that they won’t share the report with the congregation. This is especially true since the elder resignation letters specifically said that some elders were already “undermining” GRACE.
Again giving the benefit of the doubt, if they intend to honestly address what is in the report, how will the elders keep themselves from deceiving themselves in a defensive group think, if the report does contain painful truths? Human beings as sinners are quite good at deflecting painful truth. The elders are human. They are sinners. Therefore, they are prone to being self-deceived. And when a group of people is all in the same boat, there will be the tendency to “group think”. This is even more true now that the elders who were urging greater transparency have left. The group is now even more homogenous. How will they counter that tendency now that they have ruled out the kind of accountability they would get from the broader congregation being able to see it? What is their plan for that? Or are they not sinners like the rest of us prone to self-deceit?
All they have to do is read a few stories from a number of congregations where abuse has been alleged. Tragically, it is clear that Christians in church organizations follow the very same patterns people in other organizations like businesses, political parties, universities etc.follow in the wake of abuse allegations. They circle the wagons around the leaders. An typical tactic is to turn those harmed into the offenders and the offenders into the victims. The elders are already circling the wagons now and there is a clear implication that the leaders are the real victims.
Why do these elders think that they will be the Christian superheroes who are different who will not fall into the same self-deceived traps as all the rest?
Humility asks for accountability because humility knows its own blindness and weakness and doesn’t overestimate its strength.
It would be one thing to read the report first among the leadership, help anyone process any truthful but painful information, and then release the full report to the congregation for their input. But deciding to withhold the GRACE report 3 months before they’ve even seen it, just doesn’t look upright.
I just read the elder letters today and I was shocked, saddened, disgusted and really struggled as to why God called me to such a messy institution. I call it an institution because this is NOT the church of Jesus Christ as the Bible shows us. On a good note, God is restructuring and setting up HIS church the way HE wants it to be. None of us know the end result but God but I can promise you when God is finished, HIS church will look like the bride He’s coming back for. Man’s plans will never prevail over God’s plans.
Apparently the congregation donates their earned money and their precious time but they don’t have the brains & heart to deal with the report? Which they have paid for?
Stop the scam.
How can anyone possibly predict what the GRACE report will say? How does Steven King know who filled it out and who didn’t, or who will? It’s still open. Did GRACE give him a heads up that there are mostly bad reports?
Aren’t the elders called to protect the church, the sheep, not the paid staff when a situation arises with having to pick one over the other? Shouldn’t concerns from congregants show elders exactly where to focus on care? Duh
Steven is the new yes-man here, or as I see it he’s the next Eric McKiddie. He is trying to protect who? Clearly it is primarily Jay Thomas, possibly a couple pastors; but it is not the directors or admin. Nope. If that was the case where was the protection for all of the staff who have been abused? It comes down to one person needing protection and b/c that one person has been the leader bringing damage to all lower levels (other staff, congregants, minority groups) he is the one that should be exposed. It is not loving at all to let him go on like this.
From the OP: “Then, he appears to manipulate the listeners by saying that the staff received ‘hurtful comments’ as they worked to serve the congregation. Isn’t it time to pull on the big boy pants and learn to deal with it? Somehow I find it difficult to believe that the staff is not strong enough to take a little criticism now and then. After all, it is part of any job.”
Believe it.
I’m learning that if someone is not in a position where they regularly receive performance reviews (like a super high-up manager in a company, or a senior-level pastor or elder in a church with no outside governing authority), they loose the ability to handle constructive criticism.
My husband is currently dealing with this at his workplace, in a situation that’s been eerily reminiscent of my being disciplined at a former church for submitting a feedback form that was less-than-100%-positive.
Once again, church is simply mirroring the culture around it, instead of rising above.
Sorry I couldn’t get beyond 1:55.
– flaunting sinfulness
– “rest” (monolithic) of large “eldership” gang has “a different” perspective than the four who are thanked for “choosing” to “honour” theirs
(note flexible meaning of “honour” implied)
From reports this is so as to preemptively mark in public consciousness how hostile GRACE is according to what these “elders” are monolithically saying. I.e “don’t spend the widow’s mite on these consultants because they will betray the hand that steals from the widows”.
That type of “churches” don’t have a time-honoured gospel or established preaching or a model for their activity; their expenditure of effort is on these showy contortions. His body language is insincere and his tone is bitter, projected against the honest.
He would do far better to keep his lips zipped, even with his ideas.
Even God Almighty who rules endless universes, has only 24 elders! “Behold, a greater than God Almighty is here.”
There is kleptocracy close to home, divinely foreordained to defeat the bolsheviks as the Falwell family foretold.
** He said, “We support our church staff as they lead.” **
As soon as they say “lead,” you know there’s something wrong.
That is what jumped out at me. They are worried about the pastor(s).
Bev,
I wish you well. God called us there twice. We left when we moved to Texxas the first time and I often thought back to that lovely church which is no more. However, he led us out of that church to one that is more life-giving. I pray you find that. I’m so sorry this happened.
Eric,
I think this is a tacit admission that things were bad when GRACE came in. They will see this stuff so King is predicting that things will not go well.
I also agree with you that they are protecting Jay.
BTW, did you know that Eri got a plum job at the PCA church in Hilton Head. How does a disgraced guy manage that? Could it be that he was given help from his buddies?
“There is a serious leadership problem at the church.”
IMO, there is a widespread spiritual leadership crisis in America. The church ain’t scaring the devil much in its current condition … so no surprise that things like CHBC continue to happen.
“the in-crowd elders are protecting paid leader(s) responsible for the chaos that has deeply wounded this lovely church”
Because they are not spiritual elders … they move in the flesh, not the Spirit. They are failing the Body of Christ at CHBC and their responsibility to hold leaders accountable.
“We support our church staff as they lead.”
Often the last gasp of a church before things come apart. Only follow leaders who are on the right road. Give honor to whom honor is due.
If a church (or institution truly is a better word) and/or the leadership is being investigated by a group such as Grace, IMO, every one of the members should get a copy of the final report, whether it be by email or snail mail. Way too much cover up.
By design, cruise missiles hit targets they are programmed to hit. This is a war crime.
A familiar consequence of the New Calvinist takeover of a church … happening all over the country.
He is acting like an elder under coercion by a… strong leader. The leader has already pre-explained the nuanced biblical case for treating members as the unruly rebellious sinful tyrants they are, out to get the Lord’s anointed and never to be trusted with transparency. Clearly this strong leader has the right theology and training and so to do otherwise is not to follow the Bible.
The problem with deception is that you don’t know you are deceived because you are deceived. It sounds like the elders have been deceived for a while. Group think within a deceived group can only lead to more distraction from doing what is right.
There has been a LOT of discussion over the years on TWW about the god-awful level of arrogance within New Calvinism (it’s the overriding characteristic of the movement). Arrogant leaders never see themselves the way they really are and will reject all voices who correct and rebuke. When you think you are always right, you continue to be wrong.
You can hold all the humility in New Calvinism in a thimble.
Or as my grandmother used to say ‘To prove yourself right is wrong’. Perhaps she got that from Proverbs 27:2 -“Let someone else praise you, and not your own mouth;
an outsider, and not your own lips”
I am sorry, Bev, that you are experiencing this. I suppose you are new to TWW. Longtime readers have given testimony after testimony of similar experiences in New Calvinist churches. While this is not confined to the New Calvinist movement, it certainly is the most widespread current manifestation of churches which are not behaving as the Church of the Living God.
Never understimate the Arrogance of God’s Special Pets.
… and firmly believes that he alone is keeper of Truth, come into the world for such a time as this to restore the gospel to the church (all the Calvinistas think this way)
The dudebros take care of each other, until the potato gets too hot to handle. Then they all start saying “Driscoll who?” … “MacDonald who?” … “Mahaney who?” … etc.
Eric:
My assumption would be they know what the report will contain because the investigators kept circling back to specific individuals (the individuals with all the best theology, of course), “have you ever received counseling or been approached about this area of your life” or even more likely “multiple current and former church members and staffed described…”As the investigators pursue the truth with these people, it becomes obvious what they would ostensibly be held accountable for. They are preparing for how they can spin these as personal conflicts that do not need to be shared with the entire church. If a pattern is admitted, it will be vaguely described, and the offending parties held accountable by the elders already in their pocket.
It’s another gospel which is not ‘the’ Gospel at all.
It would do them well to read Matthew 7.
Calvinista leaders believe that pew peons don’t have enough sense to process such things, so they have to protect them from attacks by the enemy. In the meantime, the congregation just need to shut up, stop gossiping, and continue to put money in the offering plate.
Max,
While what Max just wrote sounds “harsh”, unfortunately I think it is true…. What a sorry state so much of the church is in…. I trust my secular humanist colleagues more on so many things compared to mainline evangelism….. sigh..
Jeffrey Chalmers,
The harsh reality is that some of these broken little boys in pulpits have all of the answers yet demonstrate very little love.
John 13:34-35 (ESV) “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
marco,
Marco,
This is sadly ironic because when I finally decided to leave my former ‘church’, this was the exact verse that was thrown at me.
And the Reformed crowd is as bad as the others. They think they’re not.
Max,
I am so upset but I think the US was naive when it came to Putin. The guy was a KGB operative in the old regime. We should have expected him to act in this manner.
marco,
Perceptive comment. I did not vote for the current pastor when he was recruited by the church. “Called by God” they said.
Max,
They studiously ignore their messes. They chose these guys then they ignored it when these guys did what they did. The current pastor mentioned Mark Driscoll in a positive manner in one of his first sermons. I knew we were done for.
dee,
Unfortunately, I think there is a significant number of Americans that admire Putin… and many of these also throw in the white christian nationalism as well…
just like there was a significant number that admired Hitler to the run up to WWII… In fact, the list for admiring Hitler is quite stunning..
Exactly, Max. And since the Bible is so clear about how easily we can deceive ourselves, you would think that this would be a strong consideration among an elder board. They appear to believe that “it won’t happen to them.”
Max, I would be interested in hearing what steps you would take if you were on an elder board. Is it sufficient to just release the report or are there other steps you think would be wise?
I’m thinking that people are most likely to be deceived when our self-interest benefits from self-deception. No one wants to believe they have been deceived. (Self interest #1) If the GRACE report does reveal deep issues within leadership, the elders will be left to handle all that burden. Nobody wants more of a burden or to have to deal with a mess.(Self interest #2) And the church has recently had a large building project which was funded by a building campaign. If there is a report that requires decisive action that may upset the status quo, any elders who invested heavily may find it hard not to “protect” their investment. (Self interest #3) I’m sure others here at TWW could add to typical conflicts of self-interest that there would be for an elder board facing this situation.
It’s not a sin to have that pull to self-interest (Phil 2:4), but it seems that active steps need to be taken to counter the natural tendency for self-deception to cloud the ability to see the truth.
Hiring an outside agency to investigate is a way to counter self-interest. However, if it then falls on the elders to “filter” that report, self-deception has a lot of room to rear its head again. Trusting that God has given his Spirit to each believer in the congregation, and allowing them to see the report would be a safe-guard to truth.
Eyewitness,
“Hiring an outside agency to investigate is a way to counter self-interest. However, if it then falls on the elders to “filter” that report, self-deception has a lot of room to rear its head again.”
You’re far too generous. It flatly defeats the purpose of an independent investigation if the investigated party has editorial oversight of what is released. This is the fox redacting the independent Henhouse Guarding Report.
Talk about “bad apples”…
Yep. With no more leadership wisdom than that, the church was destined to end up where it was headed.
The baddest of the bad … they are overlords who rule churches with a heavy authoritarian hand, they enslave female believers to the “beauty of complementarity”, they subordinate Jesus, they twist Scripture to make it fit their aberrant theology, they belittle other expressions of faith … nah, I wouldn’t call any of them spiritual leaders (i.e, not by the Holy Spirit)
I only cuss what needs to be cussed 🙂
Love is a rare and endangered species in New Calvinist pulpits. But arrogance abounds!
Well, the first step I would take would be to humble myself and pray for wisdom. Getting up from that altar, I would most likely sense that wisdom had already been offered up for the situation by hiring GRACE. Thus, I would yield to the gifting God has given that organization to assess such matters, accepting their findings as truth.
Since the church membership, not the church leadership, owns the GRACE report (they paid for it), they need to see what they bought with every jot and tittle in place (without it being filtered and redacted by the pastors and elders). The Holy Spirit has been given to each believer – each needs to let Him lead them.
As an elder (as a servant of the membership, not an overlord), I would hold a “Family Meeting” and yield to whatever actions the Body of Christ feels necessary to rebuke and correct in order to protect the precious name of Christ in the church and community. This is not about us, it’s about Him.
I would give the members a voice and a vote, but facilitate their input to make sure the dialogue is handled in a way that is pleasing to God. Congregational polity, not elder-rule, needs to take place in this matter. (Note: this is why New Calvinists are scared to death of congregational governance – they can’t control it)
Which is mind-boggling in the context of New Calvinism, because it so heavily promotes the “you’re a sinfully sinning sinner” mantra so heavily. Why aren’t the leaders featured on TWW taking their own advice?
The key word being “you’re”. The NeoCal pulpit is pure and holy; they can do no wrong; it’s the pew who are dirty rotten sinners. Worm theology is for the laity, not the clergy.
Max,
Because the clergy are “the elect”!
Max,
What is interesting about this one is that it is Asaians, Chinese and African Americans are leaving. This YRR pator screwed this up, big time.
Jeffrey J Chalmers,
I am so sad that anyone would admire Putin who is now killing children and innocent citizens to build his empire. He is an old KJB operative and that says it all.
Which is the take home message to church members if the church leaders continue to go down this path.
Exactly what plays out in the dramatized docu-series “Inventing Anna.”
Many cover-ups and lies eventually disconnect the deceiver from truth, resulting in a serious handicap or disability. They believe their own lies. Game over.
No American, no civilized person anywhere in the world should be sending hints of admiration to this mad man. He has demonstrated no respect for human life … he would snuff out his admirers and take ‘their’ land in a heartbeat if it would expand his kingdom and power.
Folks who know what oppression looks like … they want nothing more of the New Calvinist stronghold.
Wartburgers wouldn’t elect this bunch to any office.
dee,
It is very hard for me to restrain my comments w/r politics… As you say, women and children are being bombed by a mad man…. and a “political group” recently had a member of the House of Rep speak to them, and they chanted Putin???? And this House member is from a “conservative Christian district”??
dee on Thu Mar 03, 2022 at 12:31 PM said:
“I am so upset but I think the US was naive when it came to Putin. The guy was a KGB operative in the old regime. We should have expected him to act in this manner.”
A few may be naive but never forget that many admire the man and wouldn’t mind if the US was run by such a man.
I hope no one here is naive and believes it’s all down to us being naive. Some actually have no problem with this war and had good things to say about Putin.
I never trusted the former president, especially his admiration of the current psychopath invading a country and killing its citizens with no cause but his own greed! Don’t think for a minute that our former president isn’t made of the same characteristics.
QUOTE: You can hold all the humility in New Calvinism in a thimble.
That’s too large a container. More along the size of a contact lens.
Initial long-range artillery prep.
The Russian method of urban combat is to flatten the entire city with heavy artillery instead of sending in troops to clear it out. It actually reduces overall causalities among the attackers. The Russian Army has long had a thing about artillery.
Isn’t it obvious?
Conservative Evangelicl fanboying of Putin is a combination of Biblical Manhood/Tough Guy and Christian Culture War Victory. Plus sticking it to their enemies real and imagined.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/how-white-supremacy-fuels-the-republican-love-affair-with-vladimir-putin/ar-AAUvx7B?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531
Putin is the abousive Lead Pastor and his Ministers are his Elder Board; same dynamic as a lot of the churches covered on this blog.
Wasn’t Clericalism – Elite Clergy lording it over commoner Laity – one of the Reformers’ major beefs about tRomish Popery?
Guess they decided to keep the parts they liked. Calvin did his share of lording over the laity in Geneva, with the help of the magistrate.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Yup…
Agamemnon, the Austrian corporal, Putin, and our former president are all cut from the same cloth. Tyranny and the uncontrollable lust for power is the warp and woof of what they are.
Dee,
I do see that Eric McKiddie (pastor who went under an investigation and was found so abusive that he was removed within hours of the report, and got to sign an NDA) has a new church job -> https://www.hiltonheadpca.com/staff
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Connecting the dots.
Power, vice, $$$. (In some histories, they wear white hoods, or brown shirts, etc.)
part of whose education was at the Jesuit Fordham. Oh and what religion is his successor now –
Have you ever had agnostic politicians?
I wonder. Would you sign their membership contract ? Run…
Eric,
When I was at CHBC abd McKiddie came (my husband called him “miniMahaney”) he was presented as a close associate and friend of Jay Thomas. Thomas knew him and vouched for him. Guess where the problem lies.
I wonder if it was Jay Thomas who vouched for him at https://www.hiltonheadpca.com/staff? That poor congregation and staff…I hope the more savvy among them are able to get him out of there before he wreaks havoc on their faith community.
Not exactly a label you would wear proudly. May we live long enough to see the church rid of miniMahaney’s … miniPiper’s … miniDriscoll’s … miniDever’s … miniMohler’s, etc., etc. May we live long enough to witness the end of New Calvinism. To borrow a line from Paul “They have done us great harm.”
With Steven King’s address on Sunday, the phrase “gas-lighting” comes to mind…
As one of the “(83+) lovely members who are dissidents”, and one who has been at CHBC since the late 80s and can I just say what an awful and confusing time it’s been for me? I vacillate between righteous indignation, heartbreak and fear that maybe I AM being one of those “trouble makers, seeking to impede the work of the “godly” church leaders.”
I, and the whole of the Chapel Hill Bible Church really, really need y’all’s prayers…
ION: Cricket
As the official Wartburg Cricket Correspondent, it is my sad duty to inform you all of the untimely loss of Shane Warne. One of the finest spin-bowlers of all time. 🙁
… or rather, one of the finest cricketers of all time, fullstop.
Off topic, but what the hell.
Looking at the twitter pic of the Ukrainian folks being kind to a Russian soldier (to the right of TWW’s main page), it explodes the doctrine of total depravity in a real and tangible way.
Yeah, I know, a hard-core Calvinist would say:
That’s because you don’t understand it Muff, and you were probably not chosen to be ‘regenerated’.
Muff Potter,
Yup, because as Christ said, you can be a child and understand my message! ( being sarcastic)
With the exception of mad men here and there (e.g., Putin), I’m beginning to think that the only folks who are totally depraved are hard-core Calvinists.
I don’t think he is mad though definitely bad; it is just his values are quite different though held by plenty of other Russians. I suspect he sees Mother Russia as needing to reclaim its ‘proper’ boundaries (its manifest destiny) no matter how much blood is shed or what their neighbors want. It doesn’t help that at one time the center of Russia (or the Rus) was in Ukraine but the center moved from Kyiv to Moscow centuries ago and Russia lost control of the area (Mongol invasion, Lithuania/Poland) for centuries (not regaining until the late 1600s) by which time the cultures had split. I also don’t think he expected the resistance he has both within Ukraine and also from much of the world. I suspect several of his allies suspect that Putin’s ideas of proper boundaries includes their countries within it (i.e., the former USSR plus parts of the former eastern bloc) so haven’t been very supportive with his invasion (Belarus current government being a big exception).
Erp,
O indeed, and Ukrainians are fleeing toward the west, not toward Russia.
What a calamity. What horror.
Muff Potter,
By definition, any critique of Calvinism is a misunderstanding of Calvinism. That’s why I created Nickism; you can fully embrace it without there needing to be any “Nick’s Institutes of the Christian Religion”.
My first attempt to reply should read:
Yes, millions of Ukrainians had the last 30 years to return to Mother Russia before Putin stepped in to rescue them from the evils of democracy.
Do you reckon these shared values have been shaped by propaganda and indoctrination?
The Pharisees said that about the prophets … and Jesus stirred up a lot of trouble in the church, too!
Well, I figure you ain’t a prophet or Jesus, but someone who sees the situation at CHBC for what it really is. Change never happens in an organization that is off track until some in the ranks are willing to be martyrs of a sort … sometimes, “dissidents” just have to stand up and challenge illegitimate authority if change is going to come.
Speaking of zealotry, indoctrination, Calvinism, YRR, etc…
The Gospel Coalition is asking for feedback, should anyone be so inclined: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/landing/value-survey/?utm_source=housefile&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=valuepropsurvey&utm_content=survey
But be prepared, one of the questions is, in your own words, why you “love” TGC.
Values indeed. You already know this, but for any who do not…
Russia for decades has engaged in constant nonstop indoctrination of an intensity beyond the comprehension of people raised in more normal societies.
The official Russian position: Russia needs to demilitarize and denazify Ukraine, they are making clean and limited strikes on military targets, and any other damage is Ukrainians killing their own. This is dehumanizing language and horrific in practice.
They only want feedback from the echo chamber, not from anyone not already drunk on the kool-aid. And they really only want the feedback so they can ask for money. The only questions I could honestly answer are 9 and 11.
Does that reclamation include Alaska?
Ken F (aka Tweed),
My time is more valuable than wasting it on their “survey”…. And I am serious…. The few seconds I gave it, the “pretension” of the question made me stop..
Ditto.
Don’t forget California: https://www.fortross.org/
Why stop at reclamation? That would be unoriginal and limited.
Crazy or crazy like a fox?
There is a point in human behavior where bad crosses the line to evil. Satan comes to steal, kill and destroy, all of which are taking place in Ukraine … the work of a bad man or an evil man?
Lovely Dissident,
‘I vacillate between righteous indignation, heartbreak and fear that maybe I AM being one of those “trouble makers, seeking to impede the work of the ‘godly’ church leaders.”‘
I trust the party engaged in humble self-reflection. It’s not you, it’s them.
The neo-cals are not the only ones.
Calvary Chapel believes in rule by an autocrat, namely the lead pastor.
It’s called the ‘Moses’ model and it was set in motion over 50 years ago by Papa Chuck.
thank you, Bridget, for your last comment, as it answers questions I have had about the current view of Putin by conservative Christian people who get their news from FOX.
It’s been a hard thing to know that our former president tried to get us out of NATO which is THE guard against Russian aggression in Europe. I have family in Latvia now and they are a small Baltic nation that is a part of NATO and under NATO protection from Putin’s aggression.
I have no words for how the previous POTUS praised and honored Putin. It never made sense to me. If someone could explain it to me, I would be grateful.
Agreed. It’s just that pastor-rule/elder-follow has it’s ugliest current manifestation in New Calvinism, the group getting most of the bad press in the blogosphere.
Like how a bureaucracy can slip slowly from Lawful Neutral through Lawful Stupid into an end state of Lawful Evil.
IMO, Putin was smart enough to stroke his ego, and previous wasn’t smart enough to realize he was being manipulated.
“At CHBC, I believe the leader is responsible for this mess. It is apparent that King and the in-crowd elders are protecting paid leader(s) responsible for the chaos that has deeply wounded this lovely church. Perhaps it is just one more failure of the Young, Restless and Reformed crowd. There’s been a lot of that lately. CHBC may be one more casualty.” (Dee)
Unfortunately, even if they opt to send the leader packing, CHBC has become so ensnared by the New Calvinist movement that another Calvinista will be recruited. The lovely days may be over for CHBC.
readingalong,
sometimes I wonder if our previous POTUS wasn’t ‘comprimat’ (a term that means Putin had something on him) OR that maybe it was a case of $$$ because one of our previous POTUS’ sons had bragged ‘we get all the money we need from Russia’.
OTOH, our previous POTUS seemed to play up to a LOT of tyrants in N. Korea, in Turkey, in the Philipines, in Brazil, not just Russia, so it is still to me a bit of mystery.
That our previous POTUS wanted MORE power than the Constitution allows is, for me, a ‘given’. But still, one wonders what went on in his head about these autocrats.
I think that Pompeo, who stands up for Putin, is just another (what’s that word?), yes.
So sad for Ukraine’s people. I suspect Finland might be ‘next’. Why? Russians are piling into Finland over the border supposedly seeking ‘freedom . . . how this works is that when ENOUGH Russians are living in Finland, a take-over to ‘free them’ from ‘oppression’ would be an excuse for more invasion, especially if Finland talks of joining NATO.
readingalong,
Someone with that big an ego is usually a sucker for flattery.
The Fuehrer may be gone, but Fuehrerprinzip remains.
The spirit of Calvin lives on, seeking new habitation.
They better scramble to do that ASAP!
I can’t seem to get the reply function to work, so this will be repetitive.
As someone else commented, Putin is *not* “mad.” He is acting like the autocrat that he is – and frankly, not just like the Soviets, but like the tsars. He wants to force Ukraine to be part of the Russian empire again, on the basis of a common revisionist interpretation of history that’s been current in Russia for over a thousand years. None of the tsars wanted Ukraine to be a separate state. Like Poland, it has been invaded and ruled by many different powers over the centuries, but the people who held the reins of power the longest were/are in Moscow.
Ukrainian culture and language were ruthlessly crushed under Stalin’s policy of “Russification ” (also true of all the other SSRs, from Armenia to the Pacific coast of Siberia.) Ukrainian culture had been on the rebound for a couple of decades now, and yet,that same insistence on Russification is alive and well – and not just in Putin’s inner circle.
Putin and Russian Orthodox Patriarch Kiril are hand in glove on this. It’s very sad, but also is the way that the tsars and the ROC handled things for centuries.
Katie Kelaides, who grew up Greek Orthodox and who has great familiarity with Eastern and Southern Slavic history and culture + the internal politics of the Moscow patriarchate and Putin, has been writing short, readable pieces on all of this for religion dispatches.org. I’d encourage anyone interested to head over there. One thing she addresses that isn’t being covered in most international media: the religious aspects of this war. For E. Europeans who are Orthodox, it’s obvious, but the Orthodox church is very different to any Western church, and very much in its own world – one that is hard for us Westerners to grasp.
It is so hard to watch this, knowing that so many Americans truly believe Putin is a righteous man who is doing God’s will – and that the US needs someone like him in charge. That isn’t a recent development; it was well under way prior to 2016 – and some of it dates back to the 70s-80s, when Alexander Solzhenitsyn wrote some blistering essays attacking what he believed to be the moral and spiritual degeneracy of the West (while he was in exile here, ironically). While I admire his writing, I have no love for the part of him that became increasingly shrill and vocal after he came here. In essence, he wanted another autocracy, where the ROC called a lot of the shots for the Russian nation and people.
Apologies for such a long post, but I’ve been revisiting some of Solzhenitsyn’s polemics over the past week (prompted by K. Kelaides’ essays for RD). I minored in Russian and Soviet history for part of my undergrad studies and have long wanted to visit Russia…. Not so much now. (B/c Putin, not the Russian people as a whole.)
I’ve seen a small coterie of evangelicals lambaste various writers on the iMonk blog (now closed) over critical commentary on both Putin and the incident during the Sochi Olympics when some Ukrainian Cossacks literally horsewhipped members of P*ssy Riot. This started about 10 years ago.
So while *rump accelerated things, there was already an extremely devoted crowd of fanboys for Putin within US evangelicalism. I wasn’t surprised to see how intensely many people are defending Putin. White supremacist groups are all in for him, too. (Again, religion dispatches.org is one of the few places addressing all of this, though I’m sure there will be more – there already are,but they’re not in English.)
Christiane – the next targets will likely be the Baltic states. Things have been trending that way for years now, what with a buildup of Russian military personnel, tanks etc. on their borders. People there are *really* worried, and with good cause.
Thank you for such an intelligent assessment. I agree with all you say.
I think “many Americans” are suddenly realizing that Putin is evil—and many, many more Americans have known this all along. Lots of subjects are off limits in polite conversation right now, but Putin’s evil should be a topic everywhere.
Still, Americans have a custom of agreeing to disagree. If any of us somehow can’t bring ourselves to say bad things about Putin (really, how drunk ARE our uncles, anyway?), let’s at least say good things.
Ukraine has a right to sovereign national borders.
Ukrainians have a right to continue living.
Came across this yesterday on random newsfeeds.
The Guardian (UK) – How Australian Anti-Vaxx/Plandemic types have gone pro-Putin. From the buzzwords, sounds like addition to QAnon dogma:
Came across this yesterday, from Australia:
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/mar/02/australias-anti-vaccine-groups-switch-focus-to-putin-praise-and-ukraine-conspiracies
Many of the keywords/buzzwords from these Aussie Anti-Vaxxers sounded straight QAnon. And we already know about “The Church of Q”, the overlap between QAnon cultists and American Christians. The Herman Cain Award social media traces are as full of Q Party Line memes as they are Jesus memes.
Today this quick summary from MSN surfaced on a search for keywords in the above:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/qanon-followers-gleefully-back-vladimir-putins-invasion-of-ukraine/ar-AAUaBYK
It appears that Putin has become the latest Messiah figure in Church of QAnon mythology.
(I do not expect this to infect the NeoCal/Calvinista movement this blog focuses on; they seems to have been resistant to QAnon from the start. So expect the QAnon overlap to surface in the other types of abusive/dysfunctional churches that get scrutinized on this blog. Like the NAR-style hypercharismatics, the End Times types, and the Seven Mountains Mandate Christian Nationalists. The last-named movement has always had a soft spot in their hearts for Dictators who will deliver on their Culture War goals; I heard the foreshocks of this rumbling on Christianese media back in the Eighties/Nineties.)
That IS Putin’s Personal PR Image in Russia, echoing back to the Tsars of Holy Russia and their loyal Russian Orthodox Church. A third pillar of Russian society in addition to Autocracy and Serfdom: ROC Nationalism providing Divine Right. And the American Christians Numo cited above see themselves as the future Court Favorite State Church of the Inner Ring.
Hour-long segment about this from last week’s Telltale Atheist livestream:
These Televangelists LOVE Russia And Putin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTw6Yauz9NY
HUG – yep. See my 1st comment, just upthread.
Really, this has been brewing for a long time, well before Putin made himself Tsar of All the Russias. That title, from the tsarist centuries, is what he’s acting on now. (Ukraine was referred to as Little Russia” prior to the Bolsheviks, after all.)
Friend – thanks! Although another commenter summarized a lot of this upthread. Am on my phone right now and the reply function isn’t working for me, or i would have replied to his (her?) comment directly.
Christiane – large parts of Finland were assimilated by Russia in the past.
My word choice is directly linked to the Borg on various Star Trek shows, the new season of “Picard” included. Sorry for the geeky analogy, but I know that a lot of readers as well as Dee will get it.
Here’s a link to Katie Kelaides’ latest piece for RD – https://religiondispatches.org/a-twisted-love-story-how-american-evangelicals-helped-make-putins-russia-and-how-russia-became-the-darling-of-the-american-right/
Numo, the Baltic states are now under NATO protection. But since Putin is Putin, and he has raised the flag of nuclear warfare, it is unpredictable about what may happen coming from him.
NATO forces are united and any attack on one member is going to start WWIII, likely, if Putin goes totally crazy and makes an attempt on them. Finland is not in NATO now but it has history with Russian invasions, and yet the people of Finland are NOT cut from the same cloth as the Russians who fear and pander after Putin. I’m guessing an invasion of Finland by Russia would be ‘interesting’ in how bravely and competently the Finnish people fight back. I can’t imagine Sweden under Putin, no. The Swedish people are NOT at all from that sad heritage of ‘serfdom’ which over-threw its masters in 1917 in Russia, when ‘communism’ and Stalin took the place of the czars. Now Putin who is ex-KGB would become the new ‘czar’ over his people who only have the memories of the serfs as their heritage . . . . fearful, and unable to put their leaders into somekind of framework where ‘the czar is also accountable under the law’.
We, in the West, benefit from the Western tradition that filtered down through the centuries to become our own American Constitution and ‘rule of law’. The Russian people are blessed with faith, and the gifts of great music and literature. Their soul is intact. But they have no ‘framework’ to control a Putin, a Stalin, or a czar, in their traditions, no. Sorry for length here, but if anyone in America says ‘democracy is bad’, my advice is to not trust anything they say about politics, as they are wanting us to lay aside our ‘voices’ as individuals, and we cannot, being people of ‘conscience’ in a free society, give up our voices, no.
And if ANY future POTUS wants to get us out of NATO, you can bet he/she takes orders from a Russian czar.
Yikes! Katie KelaidIs
Apologies for my repeated misspelling of her last name.
It seems Solzhenitsyn was a microcosm foreshadowing what would happen to Russia in general between Brezhnev and Putin.
Not to me.
This is a known Mind Game called “Tough Guy”, where a weak man fanboys and imitates REAL Tough Guys – like a slum kid hanging out with gangsters. Or preachers and martial arts instructors claiming to be Navy SEALs. Or a Pious Piper claiming he broke someone’s neck in flag football.
What the weak man gets out of it is the aura and scent of the REAL Tough Guys rubbing off on him, the ego-boo that He’s A Tough Guy too. “SEE? THEM TOUGH! ME TOUGH TOO! SEE? SEE? SEE?”
Note that this is not a Strong Man but a weak man imitating what a weak man THINGS a Strong Man is like. A more sinister version of a little kid taking a fictional character as a role-model/hero.
numo,
Heyyyyyyyyyy numes!
It’s good seeing you back here!
You were missed.
“Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren’t.”
— Margaret Thatcher
Since all the stuff has been going down at CHBC, I’ve wondered whether to cut and run or try to be part of the healing. I would LOVE to be wrong, but it doesn’t look hopeful that “current leadership” at CHBC is going anywhere… or that healing is very likely. That said, when I think, “CUT AND RUN!!”, it’s hard to think of where to go!
Can we cease the political commentary and stick to the topic.
Christiane, the fact remains that the Baltics are extremely vulnerable and have been for years.
Which is about all I can say, in order to stay away from the political aspects of this, as Dee has requested, although I wish we could continue this discussion elsewhere. There are so few places where it has any hope of continuing without rancor.
One thing that concerns me greatly per Russia and the RO church is that antisemitism and antisemitic actions (like pogroms) are baked into that culture. I do not mean that all members of the ROC are antisemitic. But almost as soon as the USSR ceased to exist, a militantly antisemitic wing of the ROC reasserted itself in no uncertain terms. The accusation made by the Russian head of state regarding Ukraine’s supposed evils in that very category… When their president is Jewish! – would be laughable if this war wasn’t happening. The powers that be will stop at nothing in order to cement their total control of the states they currently do run, as well as the state that’s having bombs rained down on it. One small reason for hope: a lot of RO clergy inside Russia are protesting this war in the strongest possible terms, including an open letter to Patriarch Kiril, who has been ignoring similar injunctions from other Orthodox clergy, including that of the Ecumenical Patriarch himself (in Istanbul). It looks to me like Kiril could possibly end up being anathematized if he continues on this course. Frankly, he should be, imo anyway.
Dee, I do understand your request, but I honestly think this all has an impact that goes way beyond politics, in all of the countries where the Russian head of state has a great deal of support for his current actions. Sadly, that includes our own country at present. And lest we get blindsided again, well… Open discussions are desperately needed. But I’m not sure where we can have them, especially in light of the overwhelming silence about the religious aspects of this in US and European media. We cannot afford to ignore the reasons this is all happening, very much including the dangers right here, where most of us live. (This includes the many formerly Protestant converts to various Eastern Orthodox bodies in the US who are fanning the flames – again, most aren’t, but there’s a highly vocal, activist crew that *wants* this war and makes no bones about the kind of leader they want to run our own country. I wouldn’t say any of this without some unfortunate personal experiences in + reading and research and so on )
OK… That’s all. Dee, I hope you are doing as OK as can be expected, given everything. I feel for you, since I was on that same road with my mother until late 2020, when she contracted COVID and died. (I was able to be with her on that day, though, which was very hard, but so nece
… so necessary.
My apologies for weird sentence fragment as well as deviating from the topic at hand. I didn’t mean to drag it all in the wrong direction, although I question whether we can avoid that, in a general sense, pertaining to public discussion outside of here.
Muff, thanks! But i need to respect Dee’s request, so likely won’t be commenting further on this thread.
As it is, reading about abusive churches isn’t something I can do, b/c it retraumatizes me. Between that and overwhelming concerns that are beyond the scope of this blog, it’s likely I’ll be back in lurker mode.
numo,
Please accept my sympathy on the death of your mother. That is so very sad.
I understand why you’re going back to lurking. We’ll miss you. Hope you feel comfortable stopping by from time to time.
These are probably Fundamentalists who flipped over to EO and brought their Fundy attitudes with them. Just now with a different church tradition. And EOs have got some REAL elaborate traditions.
Plus EO with it’s highly-exotic elaborate liturgy and customs is just ALIEN to someone raised in a completely non-liturgical tradition (like the Purest of the American Protestant churches), so the Lure of the Exotic is also strong.
I’m sure we’ve all encountered “Net Orthodox” at one time. You know, like the Baptist kid who wrote in “JESUS” as every answer on a school test, except instead of “Jesus” it’s “ORTHODOXY! ORTHODOXY! ORTHODOXY!” Completely In-Your-Face about the EO being The Only One True Church in every little detail, “Orthodoxy-Juking” you any chance they get.
And Russian Orthodoxy is a particularly Christian Nationalist version of this, a successful Seven Mountains Mandate left to ferment for centuries, constantly bowing down to the Tsars and Autocrats of All the Russias.
Fundamentalism is a state of mind that can attach itself to any object of worship or ideology, not necessarily a religious one.
CHARLIE BROWN: What do you want to be when you grow up, Linus?
LINUS: A Fanatic.
CHARLIE BROWN: Uhhh… Have you decided what you’re going to be fanatical about?
LINUS: No… I guess I’ll just be a wishy-washy Fanatic.
Going to and fro over all the churches like a rampaging lion seeking whoever he may devour.
I’m curious, what are the particulars of the alleged racism at Chapel Hill Bible Church?
I guess I’ll be the lone dissenter and say that nowadays even a constructive criticism of anything black, be it leadership, operational policy, what have you, can now get you hauled before an inquisition of sorts to determine if you (generic you) are a ‘racist’.
It’s very Orwellian (my opinion).
Friend – thanks for understanding. When I actively commented here, I tended to engage various topics of discussion that weren’t directly related to the actual topics of the posts. That was how I was able to deal with being here.
I completely support everything Dee has done here over many years, not least b/c it really helped me to process aspects of what I went through.
Muff – really?
I think this is a discussion best responded to by a variety of Black Americans, but since there don’t appear to be any Black regulars on TWW, I think it might be wise to look into *why* racism and racists are being called out in virtual every area of public life – deservedly so, I think.
But not being Black myself, and not wanting to be a provocateur, it’s best for me to drop it. I get the feeling that our entire country needs to stop and take a long, searching look at thee resurgence of racism, since 2006 but also well before that.
* virtually
Darned autocorrec!
numo,
I’m a free thinker with independent views.
Which is probably why I draw hostile fire from both sides of he great left and right divide.
A sentiment shared by many who comment on TWW. The institutional church is in a mess. Not too many years ago, you could trust most churches in a community to be on track theologically and on mission with the Great Commission. New Calvinism has thrown a ringer into the mix … it’s come in like a flood, but with stealth and deception in the pulpit. (New Calvinism is not the only problem, of course, just the loudest blip on the radar across America right now)
Church members across the country should not be struggling with this. Church should be a place of refuge, a place of healing, a place of joy in the Lord … not the confusing contentious experience it has become. But because there is a spiritual leadership crisis in America, here we are.
For your particular situation about leaving or not, I encourage you to shut out the CHBC noise around you for a while, pray and seek God on this. Some may be called to go, others to stay, still others to go back. I liken it to God’s call on Abraham and his children. To Abraham, God told him to “Go” … to his son Isaac, God told him to “Stay” … to his grandson Jacob, God said “Go back.” The important thing is that God was the one who said to move or not in spite of the circumstances at hand. Faced with a similar church situation in the past, I knew clearly (after much prayer) that I was to “Go” … that still small voice within me instructed me what to do. He may direct you differently.
Agree with this. Church should also be a place of challenge to grow, change, improve, seek justice and mercy. Instead too many preachers challenge people to obey, exclude, and even to hate.
Though that would be typical , there were prior connections to the congregation there.
People harmed at Chapel Hill Bible Church remain very worried that Eric McKiddie’s harmful patterns of interaction will continue and harm people in the new church. And his job description at Hilton Head Presbyterian Church is nearly identical to his job description at the Chapel Hill Bible Church although he has the title of executive director there instead of executive pastor.
Hopefully, folks there who are beginning to struggle will make their way to TWW and get some outside perspective by reading about his behavior at CHBC.
After the investigation, people at CHBC were told from the beginning that there was no “sexual or physical abuse.” However, many questioned whether there was abuse of some other kind. Elder chair Steven King responded to this question at a public meeting. I worked hard to take accurate notes:
“There are several examples where our former executive pastor used his position of authority to direct a specific outcome in his favor or viewpoint…. this is defined as an abuse of power…”
“We have numerous examples of what I would consider poor management or judgment.”
“In the report I’ve seen evidence of regular and repeated use of power and authority to put down people with a different opinion. For some of the people interviewed, this was ongoing.”
“We have people telling us that they have been abused…. We have people telling us that he used language and power in ways that hurt them emotionally. We have people telling us that he shamed them …. We have people telling us he directly and publicly criticized staff members who disagreed with him …”
Some of the damage includes PTSD and stress-induced health issues.
It’s bad enough if a person has a work environment like that in a secular job, but coming from a pastor in authority over you in a church, it adds a deep spiritual dimension to the harm inflicted.
I know that TWWers understand this well. Please pray for both those harmed at CHBC and for protection for those now under his authority at Hilton Head Presbyterian Church.
numo,
Dee’s next post, “The Convicting Letters of Resignation from Four Elders of Chapel Hill Bible Church ” contains the actual letters which are very specific.
Numo, I think you will appreciate the perspective and the sources.
“Men will rise up with deviant doctrines to lure the disciples into following them” (Acts 20:30)
The NeoCal dudebros take care of each other, until the potato gets too hot to handle.
Many who comment on TWW have felt that sting … so they inform and warn the Body of Christ. While New Calvinism is not the only expression of faith with authoritarian and abusive leaders, it certainly has its share of bad-boys.
Eyewitness – thanks for this. Although honestly, I believe that the POC in question were too understated and diplomatic. I’m also surprised that 1/6 is referred to as a “riot” rather than what it truly was – an insurrection, like the Wilmington, NC insurrection that was deadly to so many Black people and that effectively ended Reconstruction in that state.
I cannot help thinking of the deliberate purging of voter rolls prior to the 2016 election (in NC, by people who removed as many legally registered Black voters as possible), and then the insurrection itself. I heard people talking publicly about assassination afterwards in my hometown, here in PA. A fair number of people from my hometown and county and adjacent counties were arrested soon afterwards, for their roles in the events of 1/6. And… a barn with the campaign logo of our current pres and VP was burned down shortly afterwards. Thankfully, there was no wind that night, or the owners of the barn would likely have been caught in a deadly fire. The barn wasn’t even 50 feet from their house. (This happened in less than a mile from where I live, fwiw.)
I should add that it can be dangerous for some of us here to do anything other than bite our tongues and keep our heads down. I am hoping to be able to move to a somewhat more welcoming area within the year, although I cannot afford to move to a city or town that’s truly diverse. (I used to live in DC and the diversity there is what I’d like, albeit in a smaller place.)
Now it should be at least partly clear why I’ve commented on this thread as I have.
Muff, might I strongly suggest that you find some Black folks + other POC to speak with? The situation in terms of the resurgence of white supremacism in this country is really dire, and worse in so many ways than it was in the 60s.
Dee, if you need to either ask me not to comment here anymore, or else ban me – I get it. I have broken the rules deliberately today, and in the face of your request from yesterday.
I am aware of why you don’t want any political discussion here and know that it would be impossible for this site to be properly moderated.
However, these topics – racism, Ukraine, domestic support for Russia’s brutal head of state – are innately political.
I can’t even begin to imagine how you feel, being the daughter of a Russian immigrant yourself.
Am finding it next to impossible to keep biting my tongue, so I’d better get off this site for the duration. I know you sympathize.
I should add that the various BIPOC who are clergy (folks I follow in FB) and who are, of necessity, social justice advocates, would not be able to properly address these issues under current commenting policy.
Again, I realize that it’s generally beyond the scope of this blog and that there would need to be a group of mods to handle it. I get that.
But racism is so innately political. It touches on every area of life. I’m especially sorry to see that racism toward Asian Americans is a big part of this particular situation, but am not surprised. At all.
Best to all,
n.
Eric,
How is this possible? Is this how things work in the NeoCal world? @EricMcKiddie just gets to keep working in ministry, as a documented abuser?
CHBC wants to protect the staff?! Ha! Oh the irony! Where was the protection plan when people were being abused by @ericmckiddie
True, but there is also an abundance of biblical material that is relevant to racism that would allow plenty of discussion. When it comes to how we relate to people of other ethnicities, it appears to be human nature to acquire assumptions about that from the niche of our own cultural experience. Then, we end up sifting Scripture through a cultural filter rather than sifting culture through a Scriptural filter. And we may not even realize that is what we’re doing.
In the case of the letters written by the elders, they revealed that much of the rest of the elder board was not even willing to listen to other members of the church, even fellow elders, describe what their experiences have been and engage in discussion. Contrast this with Acts 6:1-15.
If you are interested, maybe it would be better to continue a discussion of the racism involved in the comments following the the next article where Dee posted the elders’ resignation letters?
Eyewitness – understood. I was trying, in part, to address Muff Potter’s comment here about what he believes are exaggerated and unwarranted claims of racism – by Black people in particular – in our society at this time.
I do understand that the focus is racism in a specific church in NC. To which I would say that there is a much broader historical context,,, and that nothing happens in a vacuum.
We are all part of society and it’s clear to me that certain deplorable trends in society as a whole are affecting this specific church in an extremely harmful way.
Given the immense, documented surge in hate crimes against Asian Americans, what these people have done is not only reprehensible, it is an instance of bigotry against Asian Americans in our country as a whole.
The US church has singularly failed to address racism in its ranks, past and present. To me, it seems that context and help from our broader society is crucial if, in fact, people in churches truly want to get rid of racism.
Since the modern concept of racism did not exist when the NT was written, I think it is important for folks to understand what’s occurring – and why it’s going on – in order to have any effect at changing things.
Just my take.
numo,
Do not worry about this. The main reason for this is that it takes away from the victims in this story. I just want to emphasize their stories.
Dee, thanks, and I really do get it. 🙂
Why is Steven King in this mess plus the mess at University of North Carolina? He seems to be the protector of leadership, and both messes concern racial matters – https://ncpolicywatch.com/2021/10/15/walter-hussman-returns-as-uncs-journalism-school-faces-crisis-of-values-diversity/
(Eric McKiddie was known to be racially abusive too. What is going on here?)
“the school is “out of compliance on the Diversity Standard.””
“The Friday meeting to with Hussman and select faculty is a good example, Aikat said. Everyone Steven King identified as part of the meeting in his email is white, Aikat said. It was only once faculty members asked whether a member of the school’s Access, Belonging, Inclusion, Diversity and Equity (ABIDE) group should be part of the meeting that King asked for a representative from it.
“That it doesn’t occur to someone that that is a problem, that is itself a problem,” Aikat said.”
Ramping everything up to (literally) Cosmic Importance.