“Indeed the safest road to Hell is the gradual one–the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts,…Your affectionate uncle, Screwtape.” ― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters link
This week I got a call from a good friend who said "What is this ARC? I know nothing about them!" I told her to get in line in back of me. There has been so much hype on the part of the Neo-Reformed groups, the SBC, the typical health and wealth gospel crowd, and the drama found in the patriarchy movement that this group slipped by, virtually unnoticed, by a large segment of evangelical watchers. That needs to change.
Robert Morris: approved by Neo-Calvinist Mark Driscoll and SBC President Ronnie Floyd
This group is very successful in terms of church planting and money. They are planting a new church at the rate of about 1 a day! That is significant. Not only that, they have some extremely large churches in their midst. One of those is Robert Morris' Gateway Church which claims 36,000 active members. They are attracting some of the Neo-Reformed such as Mark Driscoll (Calvinistas, he's one of your inventions). From the SBC, he got mentioned by none other than Ronnie Floyd, the 60th President of the Southern Baptist Convention, who quotes the guy.
According to WatchmanAfrica:
Here is what Ronnie told his church members:
"Pastor Robert Morris says 'it's a real shame that Christians don't believe the importance of writing the first check [10% of your income to your church] because God is the one we value first. God is the one we respect first….God is the one we fear first. It's not the mortgage company we fear first, it's not the U.S. government fear first, we should live our lives fearing God first."
Folks, this is not some fringe group. Gateway is located in a high income enclave of the Dallas Fort Worth area. and they are attracting some well known locals and professionals all the while preaching that unless you tithe, you open the door to demons to afflict you. I wonder how long it will take for Ronnie Floyd to start the demon threats with his congregation. Also, imagine how Driscoll could take this and roll! Demon trials will be back in session.
Satan is evil but he is weak in comparison to God.
The topic of Satan and demons is one of the most controversial topics within Christendom. In the interest of transparency, I believe that there is such a being known as Satan who is the fallen angel Lucifer. I also believe that there are demons who are fellow fallen angels. In a lecture that I attended at Duke, NT Wright says that we must be cautious not to believe that Satan is the exact, powerful opposite of God. He is a creation of God and does not measure up to Him in terms of power and dominion in any any fashion. In other words, he is weak in comparison to God.
Two mistakes when it comes to demons
NT Wright also quoted this passage from CS Lewis' Screwtape Letters (this book is a must read!)
There are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about the devils. One is to disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe, and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them. They themselves are equally pleased by both errors and hail a materialist or a magician with the same delight.
NT Wright is known for his intellectualism. He truly believes in a being which he called, during our lecture, "the Satan." Here is a 3 minute video to understand how seriously he regards this being.
Because I believe in a personal Satan and also demons, I will approach my critique of Robert Morris and friends from that perspective. However, I look forward to the dialog.
A cautionary word about parables and word pictures.
A parable, according to Dictionary.Com, is
a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson.
Another definition that I like is
an earthly story with a heavenly meaning.
Jesus used these stories in a masterful manner. However, I have found that religious teachers use such devices to overly simplify a point. The spiritual realm is far more complex that a cute word picture.
Recently, I read about a hospital which decided to mimic an automobile manufacturer's production assembly line in order to deliver health care within their hospital system. They claim success but I am skeptical. A car is built using brand new parts and engineering. The human body is both complicated and, except for a newborn, a used entity. (In other words, we have mileage.) How cancer or diabetes affect one person may not be how it affects another due to an infinite number of variable physiological functions. For example, we have a friend whose heart is located in the midline of his sternum. This fact leads to other issues in his cardiac function which, in turn, affects other physiological functions. We are terribly complex.
Make sure you question any *word picture* that trivializes complexity.
Robert Morris: An introduction to his beliefs surrounding demons.
I will be referring to this video which features Robert Morris discussing his belief in demons in a sermon given to his church. It is the first part of his series called Free Indeed. He is a convincing and charismatic speaker. He speaks in a calm and reasonable manner. No Benny Hinn theatrics to be seen in this video.
Let's look at some of his thoughts in this video. Please watch the video to confirm that what I am saying is correct.
- Christians can be under bondage to demons.
- Jesus owns you but demons can influence you.That influence means they can control you. He uses the word *bondage.*
- Demons are mentioned 61 times in Gospels and 82 in the entire New Testament. (Ed. note: that means 21 times in the Epistles). Think about why this might be. Also, other sources disagree with this.
- Morris claims he is a "numbers guy." Since 1/3 of the angels fell with Satan, that means 2/3 of angels are on our side so our odds are good.
- He claimed to be in demon bondage to lust and immorality when he was a preacher. He claims his good buddy (remember this name) James Robison said Morris was afflicted by a whole flock of demons.
- He claims that you must admit that you have a demon. If you do, you can get free.
- A demon possessed Christians does not mean that the Christian is owned by Satan, merely in bondage. Here is the *word picture* he uses to explain this. Red flag: If a thief broke into your house, you would not say he owns the house. But, he could control things in your house.
- If you feel helpless and powerless or have to confess a sin over and over again, you are in bondage with a demon.
- Jesus cannot set you free unless you know you are in bondage!
- Alcohol, prescription medicines (even when used as prescribed), pornography, pride, etc. can open a door to placing you under the power of a demon.
- Here are his proof verses that Christians can be afflicted. All quotes from the NIV at Bible Gateway. Note: he utilizes Old Testament verses that describe the pagan nations taking over the Temple and Jerusalem. Those are reinterpreted to mean that Satan can take over our souls.
Lamentation 1:10
The enemy laid hands on all her treasures; she saw pagan nations enter her sanctuary– those you had forbidden to enter your assembly.
Lamentations 4:12
The kings of the earth did not believe, nor did any of the peoples of the world, that enemies and foes could enter the gates of Jerusalem.
Joel 2:9
They rush upon the city; they run along the wall. They climb into the houses; like thieves they enter through the windows.
Luke 10:17-19
The seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.” 18 And He said to them, “I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning. 19“Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you.
Do you see any reference to Christians being in bondage?
Morris claims that he known Christian can be in bondage to demons because he was once in bondage. But even more concerning, he mentions that he takes advantage of his deliverance people. Is he implying that he is routinely "getting back into bondage?
Critique
It is concerning that just about any sin including pride,not tithing a full gross tithe, along with taking prescribed pain killers, can open the door to demons. It is my understanding that Christian evangelicals give, on average, 4% of their earnings to the church. In fact, it appears that only 5% of Christians qualify as giving an actual tithe to the church. Does that mean that 95% of the church is under bondage to demons? Good night! Call in the Ghostbusters!
He claims that demons have control over you which means that Morris could be under the control of a demon when he preaches.( He alludes that he still uses the delivery ministry for himself.) If this is so, how can we trust anything that Morris or any other Christian says? In fact, Morris teaches that even the Apostle Paul was under the influence of demon(s) while he was an apostle but more on that in another post.
Remember, according to Morris, Jesus can't take out the demon unless we know we have one!
Also, has any study been done to see if people who attend Gateway Church have fewer problems with pride, alcohol, pornography, lust, etc.? Since they are delivering people from demons regularly, Morris should have statistics on why Gateway Church is more *demon free* than other churches?
Resources:
From time to time, we will be providing some resources that we have found helpful. We do not belong to any affiliate program so we do not get any kickback from our links. We even pay for our own books.
The Covering by Hank Hanegraaff
This short book (132 pages) discusses why Christians cannot be under bondage to demons. We belong to One more powerful.
In a world where evil seems to lurk around every corner and our thoughts turn to worry about our safety and security, the armor of God is our Father's protection in the fight against evils of our temporary home. Best-selling author Hank Hanegraaff describes God's protective covering over his children by dissecting Paul's words in Ephesians 6: 10-18 commanding us to put on the armor of God and "take our stand against the devil's schemes." Hanegraaff moves through the passage, phrase by phrase, defining God's armor, explaining what it means to embrace God's covering, and the practical ways God delivers us from evil.
The Screwtape Letters by CS Lewis
I have read this fictional book at least 5 times and even got to see Max McLean perform the stage adaptation. It strikes the right chord between not paying enough attention and paying too much attention to demons!
The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis is a classic masterpiece of religious satire that entertains readers with its sly and ironic portrayal of human life and foibles from the vantage point of Screwtape, a highly placed assistant to "Our Father Below." At once wildly comic, deadly serious, and strikingly original, C.S. Lewis's The Screwtape Letters is the most engaging account of temptation—and triumph over it—ever written.
It seems like we have much to discuss!
Lydia's Corner: Genesis 24:52-26:16 Matthew 8:18-34 Psalm 10:1-15 Proverbs 3:7-8
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Terrible, anti-Christ theology. Jesus defeated sin and death, and we are free now from the slavery to the fear of death (Heb. 2). These tactic do nothing but play upon that very fear of death, thus ensuring that its adherents remain in slavery to death, sin and Satan.
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@ Eric Fry:
It’s actually quite fascinating. By using his own contentions, we can prove that all Christians must be under bondage to demons. It makes no logical or theological sense. Do people ask questions anymore?
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dee wrote:
Questions are of the devil! Questions are the enemy of progress and health!
It would seem that getting your ears tickled trumps having your soul slowly sucked dry for many people.
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@ Eric Fry:
I somehow overlooked the “don’t ask questions” genes. It has irritated pastors for awhile.
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I wonder if demons played a part in Bill Cosby’s almost satanic abuse of women.
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I was just looking at the pictures of Robert Morris and thinking he would look good if he shaved his head. :O
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Well, if 95% of the Body of Christ is in bondage to demons, then of course there is this crying need for businesses–oops, I mean ministries like Gateway’s (and perhaps the whole ARC).
Kind of like Harold Camping declaring that all churches were now synagogues of Satan which all Christians should avoid, but his very own Family Christian Radio could still be of service…
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I wonder how much money you have to put in the offering plate to be declared ” Demon Free!”
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Unfortunately, Morris is far from alone in interpreting that passage about Joel as a reference to demons and what they will fo to you if you let them. It seems to be a commonplace in many charismatic circles.
Understand, I’m not a big fan of either Screwtape or Hank Hannegraff, but this kind of idiotic “theology” (Morris’, that is) is the norm in both Pentecostal and charismatic circles and has been for a long time.
Fwiw, the head honcho of that church once described himself as a “charismatic Puritan.” He was deep into English and Scottish Puritanism when he was young, and combined with YWAM and various aspects of the NAR, the mixture turned toxic fast.
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First off, I confess to likely being a heretic in that I don’t believe in Satan and demons. Instead, I think they are a metaphor for all of the selfish impulses we have that prevent us from going all of the good we could do in this world. I think this is hinted at in Matthew 16:23 where it says “But he turned and said to Peter, ‘Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling-block to me; for you are setting your mind not on divine things but on human things.” Peter was appealing to this self-interest in Jesus when he told Jesus not to offer himself up in Jerusalem.
Similarly, I think that the story of the temptation of Jesus by Satan is simply a powerful metaphor for the internal temptation Jesus faced. Here he had all this power that he could use for his own purpose and he had to struggle against this in order to be the self-sacrificing person he was.
I probably should be grateful that burning at the stake is illegal 🙂
At any rate, all this demon talk by Morris and his fellow travelers is just a tactic to try and scare and squeeze more money out of people, like telling kids about how the boogeyman will get them. They also use it to demonize anyone who disagrees them by claiming ‘they are of the devil’ – never mind making biblical arguments, just paint your opponents as influenced by evil.
If you ask me, if there are demons, the demons of greed and lust for power have possessed Morris and his compadres.
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K.D. said:
“I wonder how much money you have to put in the offering plate to be declared ” Demon Free!””
Why, 10% of your gross income, of course. I wonder if Gateway keeps track of any of it’s members tithing the way the Mormon church allegedly does. Perhaps at least the big ticket ones, a la Mars Hill.
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He’s essentially saying that Jesus won’t keep his promise that no one can snatch one of his people from the Father’s hand. That’s blasphemy.
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When you are already in the pits of despair and can barely pay the electric bill, his sermons about not tithing being the equal of demon possession are just… I don’t even have the words for how that can make a person feel. In all honesty the only thing making me get out of bed in the morning right now is the promise that no one can can separate me from Jesus. For those of us so far down in the valley, we need sermons that reassure us and promise us that Jesus has not forgotten us, not sermons about demon possession, bondage and threats of danger to those who cannot tithe.
And yes, life really is that hard right now. Every day we ask how my husband’s job situation can get worse and we find out the hard way daily. Same thing with the abuse we are experiencing from his ex-abuser. Its a battle to just live one hour at a time, much less one day at a time. I finally understand the song lyric “I need Thee every hour…” as I (and my husband) are living it.
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this is such a great way to make money for very little effort. I mean you just make up a bunch of utter nonsense and blabber it a few times on Sunday, through in a little greek and say some magic spells and wala poof instant money. Im sure the real evil ones are rolling in the aisle.
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K.D. wrote:
That’s all it is. Anyone who falls for this is a fool. It is transparently money-grubbing.
People Awake!
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I wonder how much money you have to put in the offering plate to be declared ” Demon Free!” NJ wrote:
I grew up SBC and in those days they told us it was okay to tithe 10% net….what happened? Are we just that greedy?
Also, I am betting these guys are wanting wanting ” more” than 10% to give you a ” clean bill of health.”
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@Mandy – praying!
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@ Mandy:
Am praying, too. So sorry to hear that you’re contending with all of this.
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Mandy wrote:
(((Prayed for you and your situation.)))
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@ numo:
Dee, i hope my comment about Screwtape and Hannegraaf (sp?) didn’t come across as slighting – if so, i apologize. I could have made the comment w/out having said that.
Overall,i guess i have never been much of a Lewis fan, though i do like some of his writing a lot. But mostly novels, not his books about religion. I wish i could have bern a fly on the wall at one of his medievallit lectures, though!
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K.D. wrote:
Morris’ Gateway collections exceed $2 million per WEEK. Yes over $100 million per year at “just” 5 campuses. You should have seen him whine on camera last year when an ice storm forced cancellation of all weekend services and he feared the loss of millions. Picture Mr Krabs from Sponge Bob crying “Me Money”
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@ JeffT:
What do you do with the references discussing how there was an angelic rebellion and one third of the angels followed Satan rather than God? Why bother mentioning details like that if they are allegorical?
And how the Bible comments on how the angels in heaven rejoice every time a person accepts Christ (I would assume you reject “good” angels if you also reject the demons, which are fallen angels, to be consistent).
I don’t get the notion that Satan and demons are metaphors, since the Bible treats them as though they are actual beings. Saying they’re metaphors makes some portions of the Bible very odd ball.
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Tim wrote:
But Tim, he would have to come up with another way to part people from their cash if he taught that.
These guys who teach that you HAVE TO give God his ten percent cut (or else God will send divorce, cancer, etc, your way – yes, I’ve heard Morris teach this on his TV show) make God sound like a mafia king pin.
When they teach things like that, I picture God in my mind wearing a suit, fedora, spats, and brass knuckles, threatening to punch you if you don’t give him ten percent of your income, and it’s ridiculous.
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__
Riga-Morris and the 501(c)3 religious river of $lime?
…did some buddy say Ghostbusters?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lx_vWkv50uk
🙂
—
🙂
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@ JeffT:
P.S. there are several more passages that come to my mind, that make no sense to me if Satan/demons are metaphors and not real to the biblical writers, such as-
James 2:19
“You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder.”
I don’t understand why James 2:19 is in the Bible if the writers didn’t consider Satan/demons to be real.
If demons are allegorical (to the people of the Bible), I don’t see what the point is in referencing them in passages such as this one, either:
Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”
The book of Job in the Old Testament has several conversations between God and Satan.
Why treat God as being literal in that book, as actually existing, but treat Satan as nothing but a symbol or literary device?
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Okay. I got this far and had to say something….(snark alert)
Based on my experience growing up, it is my opinion you will find (assuming you can get any of them to be honest) that they might just have higher than average problems with these things.
Okay, back to the article….
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Morris starts his sermon with false teaching. John 8:31 is not “makes” you free but rather it should be “sets” you free. Sets is redemptive, makes is not. Also, Jesus is not talking to believers. Read on. In verse 37 it says, “I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you.” So, he is not talking to believers. Morris says Jesus is talking to believers. From the very beginning he is preaching lies and it just gets worse with every word.
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@ Sarah:
Hmm…made me thin of an incident with my former pastor where he turned to the congregation in front of a guest speaker and told the congregation that it was their fault he didn’t have his own jet yet. 🙁
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@ Daisy:
Those are all good questions and I will say up front that I don’t have all the answers – like a number of Biblical issues I’m still in process. The most problematic are verses like Luke 10:18 where Jesus says he “saw Satan fall like lightning”.
That said, there are really only three passages in the OT that talk about the fall of Satan: two in Ezekiel and one in Isaiah. As far as Job goes, and in the remaining mentions of Satan in the OT, Satan actually works for God acting as an investigator for him and carrying out God’s will. Moreover, I think the whole Heavenly Court scenes in Job are just a literary creation in order to establish that Job is completely blameless and set up Job’s trials.
At any rate, there are very few references to Satan compared to all the other teachings and I think his importance has been blown way out of proportion by many. I just think it’s all too easy for some to blame some outside entity for evil deeds they chose to do on their own. And by raising the specter of being under assault by Satan serves only to create a culture fear where the congregation is led to believe their Fearless Leader is their only hope.
I’m sure I have a more dynamic view of the Bible than many, particularly the OT, since I think that there are parts of the Bible that are human interpretations rather than teachings of God – but determining what’s meant to be a teaching of God and what’s a human interpretation is no simple matter either.
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@ Daisy:
Not everyone is a literalist, though. And the “satan” in Job is not the devil of xtian theology. He is, per Jewish understanding, a member of God’s heavenly court acting as a *legal* adversary (prosecution, if you will).
By Jesus’ time, there were highly developed, almost sci-fi like, ideas about angelology and demonology. This seems to have started during the exile, been further developed after the Babylonians were conquered by the Persians, and brought home to Judea by the returning exiles. I don’t know if you’re aware of books that *didn’t* make it into either the Jewish or xtian canons, but Enoch is one that almost did. The section called the Book of the Watchers is revealing for the complexity of the angelology/demonology, as well as for its reinterpretation of parts of the Hebrew Bible. You can easily find a copy (to read for free, online) via Google.
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Sopwith wrote:
Sopwith that video is classic.
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From the main body of the article:
This group is very successful in terms of church planting and money. They are planting a new church at the rate of about 1 a day! That is significant. Not only that, they have some extremely large churches in their midst.
When you say ‘they’, does that mean Morris (and others?) heads up a kind of investment group that gets a ‘piece of the action’ from the church plants? And if so, what is their cut? I know that it’s probably easier to get the encrypted drone camera traffic codes for strikes in Yemen than it is to get the financials on religion hucksters, but hey, I’m just askin’.
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If 95% of Christians are demonaics, then the Gates of Hell have prevailed against the Church and Jesus was a liar.
Also, fun fact: of,the several indeed ancient canons of the Church contained in the Pedalion, the Orthodox anthology of canon law ( all of which predates the year 1,000 ), to my knowledge not one deals with tithing or prescribes canonical penalties on those who fail to give 10% of their income to the church.
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I love the whole “Tithe or the demons gonna inflict more misery on you than Job” schtick. There’s really no difference between that and someone hawking relics to ward off demons. Morris could just as well be standing up selling vials of the darkness that covered Egypt. “Buy one of these priceless relics of God, wear around your neck, and and no demon will ever come within a 100 cubits of you. Buy one for spouse and each of your children, and don’t forget your parents and close friends. For today only, BOGO half-off”.
These guys have turned Christianity into a traveling medicine show.
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Man, I knew that minoxidil was just bad bad news….
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My apologies, dee, but you lost me there.
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JeffT wrote:
Isn’t that a hexe using familiar-spirit demons as his Enforcers?
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K.D. wrote:
More than you actually did put in.
Always MORE than you did.
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Eric Fry wrote:
“Questions lead to Thinking.
Thinking leads to Doubt.
Doubt begets Heresy.
Heresy demands Retribution.
Blessed is the mind too small for Doubt.”
— Warhammer 40K
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“Morris’ Gateway collections exceed $2 million per WEEK. Yes over $100 million per year at “just” 5 campuses. You should have seen him whine on camera last year when an ice storm forced cancellation of all weekend services and he feared the loss of millions. ”
Now that takes real gall, I truly admire that in a person. Along with selfishness and hubris along with pride and utter arrogance. Plus, he makes bank, bless him.
I could never do this it would truly bother me, a spiritual, moral, and ethical failure on my part. I need to repent.
/sarcasm.
Actually it makes me sick.
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http://youtu.be/Hu_Zl6c0nF4
I could not stop laughing at this one, sorry about all the editorial text.
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Former CLC’er wrote:
I was thinking he had a cousin ‘over the pond’, the mayor of London, with hair to make a Labrador proud (Boris Johnson’s hair also has it’s own facebook page, “hair that possesses magical powers which were handed to him by Chuck Norris himself”) http://www.theguardian.com/politics/gallery/2012/jun/08/boris-johnson-bad-hair-pictures
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Thank you for writing such an insightful post. The opening quote from Ronnie Floyd was very interesting because after watching Robert Morris for years I can honestly say that I can’t think of a single person who fears God less in this life than Robert Morris. Not by a long shot. For any of your readers struggling to understand why these men do such awful things while holding the position of “shepherd” I strongly urge them to check out Phil Johnson sharing his thoughts on Charismatic Leaders and why they will say or do anything for money. I doubt you’ve seen or heard anything quite as blunt or accurate as this before. Not to throw in a spoiler, but the bible specifies only one sin which is unpardonable. I guess once these men “cross that Rubicon” they realize they do have to make the most out of this natural life, and boy do they. http://denofwolvesdocumentary.wordpress.com/2014/11/05/strange-fire-one-year-later/
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dee wrote:
Well, when you see how many fill the offering buckets week in and week out, giving millions of dollars to these shysters every year, you’ve got to wonder.
BTW: Copeland, Tilton, Robison, Youngs, Morris (all Dallas/Ft. Worth area good ol’ boys) – continue to rake in $millions. Looks like Driscoll is going to get himself a piece of that action!
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NJ wrote:
Gateway has 35 full time employees just in their Accounting Department and they spend a lot more time on receivables than payables. Every person who gives to Gateway has every single receipt tracked and yes, when large givers lower or discontinue their tithes a pastor is dispatched to find out why. They have around 200 pastors on staff so it’s not that difficult (out of over 600 employees altogether). The more you give, the higher up of a pastor that contacts you. Even the little people get every penny tracked. If you want to work there, it’s a mandatory full 10%. If you want to lead a small group, it’s a mandatory full 10%. The rest is mostly left to shaming or coercing you to get your tithe up. However, if you don’t work for GW or run a small group, then no, they do not mandate that members submit their tax returns to verify that a full 10% of gross is paid (which means > 13% of your take home pay). But who knows? With Morris’ BFF, “Brother in Christ”, regular Gateway Saturday night attendee and well known Mormon Glenn Beck having input – maybe that little shortcoming will soon be rectified. I wouldn’t be surprised.
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The use of the word “bondage” is what bothers me the most. It’s vague enough so that they get to define what it means in every situation as a means of controlling people. And I’m pretty sure they’re doing it with other words, too. Blessing, authority, submission, even love. These poor people in these churches, we really need to pray for them.
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I think any discussion of demons has to begin with the fact the God has absolute power of Satan and his minions or demons, the principalites and powers. They are created beings, there is no question has to who is absolute sovereign and to whom they are subject.
The point where views differ are as how much demons can influence believers. Satan, being in rebellion against God, and unbelievers being in rebellion against God are in the same kingdom of darkness. Believers, however, have been delivered from the dominion of darkness, they are now in the light.
The main way I can see them being influenced or infiltrated by demons is by sin, opening the door by themselves being rebellious again. This does not mean it is right to blame sin on demons, ‘I couldn’t help it because I have a spirit of lust’ or whatever. Nevertheless, if we persist in not obeying the revealed will of God and set out in the NT, we cannot complain if we come under spiritual attack.
Another way is false doctrine. If the truth sets you free, falsehood in the form of doctrines of demons can tie you up in knots. There is plenty of that about in the modern church, often in the form of truth taken to an extreme, or rejecting the harder bits of the bible we don’t happen to like or would make us unpopular with the world around us. There’s plenty of fake religious experience to be had as well.
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God has absolute power over Satan … Bears repetition.
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__
To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.
—
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@ Mandy:
Mandy, I am so sorry about your situation.. I am going through a job crisis now too. After I got fired on September 12, I found out last week that I am not going to get my license back so I have to come up with a totally new way to make a living. i wish you luck.
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@ srs:So the psych meds that kept me from killing myself 3 weeks ago are evil? I’ll take my chances with the demons.
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__
Who needs this religious 501(c)3 ARC church ‘demon’ nonsense anyway?
Q: Who can ‘afford’ under these abusive conditions, to attend worship at this group of churches?
—
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Sopwith wrote:
Evidently 36,000 members according to the post above. I find that so hard to understand. 🙁
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Well, I am not going to make it. I may as well sin as I like.
I take 8-10 pills a day. And if my back is really bad it’s a narcotic.
All prescribed by my doctor. Then again, he’s seen my blood work, my MRI reports, my X-rays. My preacher has not….
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Ken wrote:
Amen.
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@Haitch – scary hair!
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@ nmgirl:
*hugs to nmgirl and Mandy*
I too am facing financial difficulty. I’m already in debt, close to bankruptcy, my family has drawn the line on lending me any more cash, I’m struggling to build a business that I believe in more than anything else aside from Jesus. God promised me a breakthrough and I hold on to that (hurry up Lord! D:). Im not sleeping, I cry every day at the fear that I may have to give up my dream or sell my most valued possession, my cello, to keep going. I’m just so desperate for money that tithing is out of the question.
Sorry for the depressing stuff. Guys, please pray for income for me, Mandy and nmgirl.
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Regarding this quote:
“Pastor Robert Morris says ‘it’s a real shame that Christians don’t believe the importance of writing the first check [10% of your income to your church] because God is the one we value first. God is the one we respect first….God is the one we fear first. It’s not the mortgage company we fear first, it’s not the U.S. government fear first, we should live our lives fearing God first.”
I think this fear thing is the key to a lot of this bad theology.
If fear is defined as being afraid, then their theology fits.
If fear is defined as worship, reverence, and awe, then their theology does not fit so much.
I, for one, am not afraid of God. I do not believe that Jesus died so that I would be afraid of the one who rescued me. He tells us that we have not been given a spirit of fear, but of love, power, and a sound mind.
He also tells us that perfected love casts out fear.
So anyone who talks about fearing God, and does not define it as reverence, awe, and worship is not someone I care to pay attention to.
It seems to me that they need the fear for their system to work.
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@ Mandy:
So sorry to hear that – my prayers are with you. In addition to helping others, our faith is meant to carry us through hard times when it seems like the world is against us, because that is all about what God’s love for us is. But we are inundated with cold, heartless, and cruel false prophets who blaspheme God because they don’t give a d@%# about others and only use the name of God steal your money and make themselves rich. God cares about you, not your money.
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@ Doug:
Bullseye!
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@ nmgirl:
No, I wouldn’t say they are evil. They sound wonderful and I am glad you had them.
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Gnosticism
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Glenn Beck attends Robert MOrris’ church?!
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When simple questions complete dismantle your point, or, cause you to get angry….your point is probably not so pointed…..
I have rubbed elbows with a number of the “faith healing” crowd and they can not deal with simple questions. My favorite, by an atheist, if God gave you the power to heal people, can you go heal that man with a missing limb??? Or is he only powerful enough to help people with bad head colds????
I always believe in the simplest explanation…if Robert Morris and his ilk were truly accomplishing all that he claims….36k people in his church would be TOOOO small.
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nmgirl wrote:
SCIENTOLOGY Says So.
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Former CLC’er wrote:
“GOP Kingmakers said one to another:
Kingmaker unto Kingmaker o’er the world is Brother…”
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William G. wrote:
But the Didache (from when years AD were in the low three digits) devotes about 1/3 of its text to How To Spot a Con Man.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
What? Why.
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Corbin Martinez wrote:
Scientology is against ALL psychiatry or psychology.
Unwanted competition to their own Scientology Auditing.
And when a church has a doctrine or practice or shtick that’s reminiscent of Scientology, that’s NOT a good sign.
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I understand what you all are saying. But I do wonder what happens if we don’t resist the devil, if we don’t consider the armor of God, if we aren’t free indeed, etc.
as far as sin always being involved. What did the child who was being thrown into the fire do. The original word for child describes an infant when Jesus asked the dad how long his kid had been afflicted.
The sensationalism promoted by these wealthy pastors is deplorable, and any blaming of their own sin on demon possession is also deplorable. And sarcasm and course joking from them about people who do not believe as they do is hurtful.
So also from the other side. I have thought and thought and studied and studied the Bible on this subject ever since it slapped me upside the head about 22 years ago out of the blue. I hadn’t thought that demons could attach themselves to Christians either, but I do now.
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Patti wrote:
Patti, if that were true, then much of what Jesus taught is utter nonsense.
In addition, Paul told the Colossians that they had died, and their life was now hidden with Christ in God. Being in Christ, a so-called demon would have to invade Christ in order to attach itself to me.
So I will go with Jesus and Paul on this one. If they (demons, Satan) are real, they are fallen creatures. As created beings they would not have super natural powers that exceed Christ. My guess is that they wouldn’t even come close. I think that is why we are simply told to take our stand and resist, and no where are we told to engage them in warfare. A whole lot of goofiness goes on when we go beyond what is written.
I think we have to consider the fact that we may have been misled on this whole subject by hundreds of years of bad theology, coupled with sinful men seeking power over other people.
In my view, 99% of what goes by the name of “demon” is simply good ol’ fashioned sin conjured up within my flesh. Nothing more.
How exactly does a demon attach itself to a Christian anyway? Where is that written? I think you know the answer.
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Adam Borsay wrote:
Hey Adam, I have asked for years for someone to explain to me exactly how the Devil (or a demon)implants thoughts in someones mind.
I have heard that teaching from dozens of “Bible teachers, pastors, and authors”, but to date I have not received one answer. No one seems to know.
So yeah, I agree with you. If they can’t answer a simple question…
Another one was on the inner promptings of the Holy Spirit. “How do I tell the difference between a Holy Spirit prompting and my own desire?” No one knows.
And finally, “How do you know you were called to preach?” The usual reply? “You just know…” Not a very satisfactory answer, imho.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Wow, I didn’t know that. I tried to read dianetics a while back in the library, but It was a little weird trying to read something that sounded like Hinduism and startrek combined. Couldn’t get the hang of it.
I think this anti-psychology teaching connects this movement with the hyper-reformed crowd. I know John MacArthur thinks most modern medicine is “humanist” and piper is only slightly less suspicious.
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Sometimes I get this weird feeling that a good deal of “Christians” really really wish they could live out their Supernatural fanboy fantasies in real life…
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Former CLC’er wrote:
Yes he does. He and his family attend GW on Saturdays then go to his Mormon temple on Sundays. Glenn has also been given the pulpit three times that I personally witnessed. Robert calls him a “brother in Christ” and Morris’ followers erupt in enormous applause and laugh uproariously at Beck’s jokes every time. Morris and his leaders justify allowing Beck to speak to the congregation from the altar of Jesus Christ because Glenn professes that Jesus is his personal savior. The problem is that Mormons believe that Jesus is the “spirit brother” of Lucifer/Satan with both brothers having been born of God and his wife. No, that wasn’t a typo. Robert Morris and his senior pastors know this. I’m not sure the adoring followers in the crowd fully understand this. In the end it doesn’t matter. The giving units all want to be at the coolest celebrity church and listen to stand up comedy while Morris wants a piece of Beck’s more than $80 million per year revenue stream. The fact that they are following a false leader is irrelevant because they get to sit at the cool table and dance through the broad gate in trendy Louboutins.
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brian wrote:
Can you get me a link that brings me to the collections for Gateway? I would sure appreciate it.
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@ nmgirl:
Please know that I am praying for you and am so glad the medications are helping you.
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K.D. wrote:
More and more and more…you must constantly be getting rid of demons if i read Morris correctly.
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srs wrote:
That is what Morris contends. He lost me as well!
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numo wrote:
I do not take offense. All of us have different people that make sense to us and I accept that. CS Lewis has meant a lot to me through my life as a Christian but not everyone likes him.
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Tim wrote:
That’s is how i see it as well.
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LT wrote:
LT, do you really think they know those facts about Mormonism? Or is Glenn one of those “W-hell-hell-I-don’t-believe-THAT!!” kind of Mormons? You know, Mormon-in-name-only? (a MINO?)
Not that I am doubting you. Just curious.
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JeffT wrote:
Please feel comfortable when you make comments here. I am not into calling people heretics, nonChristians, etc. I leave that up to the One who is quite a few pay grades above me. Also, one of these day I am going to right a post in which I claim most of us are heretics at one time or another in our faith walk. We are all in process. Only John Piper is sure he has it all together.
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dee wrote:
I have a “Demon-shred-o-matic” machine that I will sell you for three easy payments of $99.99… 🙂 patent pending, of course…
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@ Anna:
I am putting a prayer request at the top of the homepage.
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srs wrote:
Imagine how many demons attach to Botox injections!
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@ Doug:
I would love to find out how many people nod along with Morris and do not give him a tithe. I bet there are many! It must drive him nuts!
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@ LT:
Does Morris monitor the tax returns of his small group leaders? Do you know how many small group leaders there are?
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dee wrote:
I would be the guy with the doubled up scotch tape on my fingers when the collection plate went by. Unless they use chicken buckets…
I have the spiritual gift of receiving. I know, because I took a test…
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@ Doug:
Well, just in case I wasn’t really born again, I did take it up with God, so if He didn’t save me until after He drove them out, that’s ok too. But I do interpret the Bible passages differently now. One thing that had confused me before was when I tried to believe that we were only soul and body, I believe that we are spirit, soul, and body. In Acts, when people were set free from spirits and healed of bodily diseases in the same verse, it doesn’t make sense to me that God would leave it up to me to determine that the ones set free from spirits were not believers while the sick ones were.
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Adam Borsay wrote:
This is a typical question by atheists. Why won’t God heal amputees?
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com
Here is on good answer but it is not a perfect answer.
http://www.standingwithhope.com/atheism/
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Now that you mention it:
There used to be a car dealer up here who sat in his dealership on Sundays with binoculars to catch all of the car browsers. He recorded their license plate numbers and gave them to his contact at the dmv, who got him their contact info. Then he had his sales guys call them during the week.
I would not put it past GWC to have cameras ( and people) scanning the crowd, and have someone who keeps stats on all that. They probably know exactly who gives and how much all of the time.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Also – keep an eye out for their drug addiction/rehabilitation centres. An unaccountable and non-transparent area as far as I’m concerned.
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Doug wrote:
I believe only in the flesh, not the spirit. Do you believe we are spirit, soul, and body or just soul and body. I know that it was my experience that got me started on checking the theology, so I understand the argument. But I had to, it was just crazy, I am a hundred percent convinced that you would have gone back to the books on this one as well. But I still think now that if I hadn’t had the experience, and just studied, I do believe that I can argue from the scriptures alone for the case of Christians being demonized. But like I said, it doesn’t bother me that people argue with me because they weren’t there.
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@ Patti:
Let me tell you how I view it in my life. If Satan did not exist, the world would still be afflicted with the result of sin. It would be terrible, even without Satan. When God saved me, He gave me His Holy Spirit who dwells in me. The Spirit does not share with the demons. I have been bought with a price. He who is in me is greater, more powerful, than he who is in the world.
Instead, I take the view of Lewis. I am sinner. The Evil One and his friends are out there fanning the flame of my “prone to wander” life. It is far too easy to blame the devil when, in reality, it is me who chooses to sin and sin I do. And that is why His grace is so wonderful. he understands.
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Doug wrote:
If “the devil made me do it” then I am not responsible. After all, isn’t the devil far more powerful than I am? It is a great excuse for those caught in infidelity. They claim a demon, get delivered and “Hallelujah, Honey, don’t blame me. I was under the influence.”
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@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
Its kind of like me. I am hoping that one day I actually discover a true vast conspiracy…
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Sorry Doug, I forgot a scripture example. One Paul’s thorn in the flesh. It was a messenger of Satan. Mostly, it’s that I can’t find verses that say a demon can’t be in a Christian. Some say that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit like a ziploc bag. But the original word means stamped, as if owned, not like in a bubble.I disagree with my own church AOG that says if you have a demon, then you lost your salvation. I know that much harm has been done by demon busters, but I’ve also seen people who have demon issues who believe in the Calvinist predestination and believe they are not chosen because they do have a demon. In my opinion, if you think all demon problems are mental illness, then you have not met a demon.
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Doug wrote:
Then Beck is playing a dangerous game. Mormons redefine who god is and claims that one day, we shall be like God. “As God once was, so are we. As God now is, so shall we be.” There is a God of this world now and we shall one day be gods of our own worlds.
Beck continues to go to his Mormon church each Sunday and rumor has it he goes to Morris’ on Saturday night. Cognitive dissonance is necessary in this situation.
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Doug wrote:
You and about 95% of Christians. The tithing game is not working and they know it but they have to keep it up to keep the 5% giving.
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dee wrote:
I wonder how many repossessions it would take before she would lay hands on him….with a fry pan…?
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@ dee:
I don’t believe God delivers Christians from the demons that they blame their sin on, if they have demons. God knows the heart. I also believe that deliverance from demons for anyone is a miracle like any other miracle. I don’t believe that we can go around hunting for them and attempting to throw them out of people just because. Someday I will send you my story. I’m taking online college classes right now and better get back to studying. I won’t send you my story to try to change your mind, but just so you could better understand me. I too, cringe every time I see the shenanigans from the celebs.
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It seems unlikely.
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Incidentally, I’m not a prophet. God told me so Himself.
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@ dee:
Hey, thanks! Don’t get me wrong – i like Lewis, too, but i am very uncomfortable with the way that he’s been pretty much canonized by many evangelicals. I’ve been around Lewis fanboys/girls who basically view his writing as an addition to the canon of scripture, though they would never say so publically. That gets a little wearing – and I’ve long been bafgled by the way prople choose to ignore that Lewis himself was not only C of E, but pretty darned high church Anglican at that. His real beliefs about the nature of the sacraments (etc.) would likely make a lot of evangelicals feel like they were learning from someone who was *almost* Roman Catholic. I kinda think that would cause many to either run away screaming or else denounce him with the h-word.
I think books like Mere Christianity meant more to me when i wss in my late terns-early 20s, but they seem lacking now. I domrealize that MC is actually a slight adaptation of talks he gave on the BBC, so not exactly in drth. And he apparently had different views later in life on many of the topics covered in MC, and wished he vould rewrite the whole kit and kaboodle.
I like the Narnia books vety much (warts and all) and Til We Have Faces, which is great up until the 2nd half of the book, and then loses coherence and the narrative thread goes all over the place and… but i love it anyway. I think he didn’t always have time to fimish novels properly, and also needed better editorial guidance, but that’s a whole other topic in itself.
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@ numo:
Not exactly in depth. I cannot type today.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Funniest comment I’ve read all day on any blog anywhere.
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@ Doug:
Very much agree on the 99%, etc. This after years and years of superstitious charismatic demon-chasing.
Nobody ever really explained *why* they attributed so much power to demons, though. I don’t think i could have articulated it myself, not in so many words, without my head exploding (metaphorically speaking). If anything, it was a combination of my own fears and groupthink – everyone else believed it, so it *must* be true. I’ve been through “deliverance ministry” a few times, and think 99 & 9/10ths of what they were attempting to exorcise was/is actually medical, and fairly easily addressed with the right disgnoses, proper treatment, and a bit of cognitive therapy to help address real-life issues that cannot be taken care of by “deliverance.” I am not saying there are *never* situations in which a person might need a proper prayer session with a *real* exorcist, but i think those cases are exceedingly rare – and are NOT helped by the typical charismatic approach. If anything,the powers that many ascribe to supernatural forces are, imo, like a swamp to malaria-bearing mosquitoes. In other words, fear fear FEAR is the result of that mentality, and that can cause serious problems!
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Patti wrote:
Hi Patti, I am not questioning your experience nor would I attribute it to mental illness. Ever.
I am not sure tho that we can take Paul’s experiences and consider them as normative for the average believer. My understanding about his thorn in the flesh is that it could have been his eye condition, which one of his other letters alludes to, or an actual person. There is some debate as to exactly what that is.
As someone afflicted with arthritis, there have been many days when I have asked for that particular “thorn” to be removed. Many here and in our home church have such physical illnesses. I attribute those to living in a fallen world. That’s just me. The creation groans on.
Paul was an Apostle, saved in a spectacular way, and chosen by God for a purpose. Even the most impressive of the glitterati does not compare to his experiences. I don’t know any of us normal Christians who do. Not even missionaries, who, if you hang around them long enough, are just like the rest of us.
All that to say this. I am interested in hearing your story some time. I just think that our experiences are not always what they seem, and that there has been a lot of bad thinking in this area for a lot longer than I have been on this planet. I think we need to be willing to recognize that we might have been influence by that bad thinking. Most of it can’t be justified by the Scriptures, and is extra-Biblical. I am naturally skeptical, even when “stuff” happens to me.
And I would still like to know how exactly how one attaches to a Christian. I doesn’t make sense to me.
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dee wrote:
He has it all together because he believes the right doctrines and believes EVERYTHING in the bible. We could learn alot from him.
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Doug wrote:
Remember Grinning Ed Young pushing tithing by automatic bank account deductions and demanding his sheeple’s bank account and routing numbers for it? “We have good security cameras in this church. If you hold out, WE WILL KNOW WHO YOU ARE!”
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Doug wrote:
“I got a quarter!”
“Yeah. I got a half!”
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Corbin Martinez wrote:
Try to scare up a used book titled “L RON HUBBARD: MESSIAH OR MADMAN” (my money’s on the latter). Highly Unauthorized biography of Elron and his creation Scientology.
Oh, if you ever caught the Scientology episode of South Park, NONE of that “This is what Scientologists Actually Believe” was made up.
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Doug wrote:
In Mormonese, that’s called “The Burning in the Bosom”.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I brought this up to one guy, and that was when the backpedaling began.
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Adam Borsay wrote:
You mean he’d have shrunk them?
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Well….if they had the demon of obesity….then yes, yes he would have shrunk them down to a less sinful size.
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Doug wrote:
Do we have any scripture that tells of a specific temptation by satan? Only ones I’m aware of is the one where Jesus was tempted by him. And later Jesus tells Peter that satan has desired to sift him like wheat. So we can’t deny temptation comes via the devil as well as the flesh with only one specific scriptural example of that happening.
Satan is called our adversary, a liar, the tempter, and the great deceiver. I think sometimes we minimize his influence and activity in our daily lives.
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Incidentally, a combination of sodium alginate with potassium bicarbonate is a good cure for Burning in the Bosom.
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Doug wrote:
Glenn is very outspoken about his Mormonism. He didn’t choose a religion until later in life and after trying Christian churches he and his wife made the cognizant, informed decision to choose Mormonism over Christianity. He has said that he mainly attends GW so he and his family can enjoy the worship music, which is true for most of the attendees, and he doesn’t feel the Mormons are up to snuff on their music, production values and stage presence. I totally understand what you are saying about Jack-Mos. You can tell Glenn is definitely not one of those, because he talks about his Mormon faith a lot and how much he has studied and considered it.
As for the GW leadership, although the crowd went nuts for him apparently a number of people who do understand Mormonism wrote to the leadership enlightening them as to the more bizarre tenets of their faith including the god making and planet dwelling aspect as well as how women can only enter heaven on the shirt tails of their husbands. Single women literally cannot go to heaven. Although these people represented the minority it did still cause a dust up. The first time Morris gave Glenn the pulpit might be blamed on ignorance but not the second or the third time. One of the speaking engagements was at the highly esteemed FIRST Conference long after they understood the nature of the Satan Spirit Brother Christ that Glenn claims as his personal savior. It is at this Conference that the people prepare for by fasting and praying that the year’s goals are laid out. GW used that platform to have a Mormon help lay out Gateway’s goals for the year. That was in 2012 which was the year of GW directing how people should vote so he seemed like a good fit, if it was a political rally and GW was an APAC. Wait…… Oops I guess there was nothing wrong with Glenn Beck on the altar.
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dee wrote:
I am going to put together an email for you on this. It’s not a quick answer. I think their policies might intrigue you. It gives a vast insight into what this 501(c)3 is all about at its core. Spoiler Alert: not the bible
I’ll also send some financial data (limited to the very little that is available publicly) because you may be able to use that in a future post at some point.
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Here is an article from early 2000’s Christianity Today.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/september3/1.46.html
If I have a problem such as those described in article, I place blame on myself, not on Lucifer’s associates. Now if I am an alcoholic there are aspects of this disease that make me more susceptible alcoholism than the average person, but I am responsible when I fall off the wagon, not a fallen angel. A person who is morbidly obese is responsible for their state. Now prayer is important in problems such as these, but prayers for deliverance?
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Thanks, I’ll try and get it.
Bye the way, weren’t the creators of south park raised mormon?
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Mark wrote:
Jesus prayed for deliverance from evil.
What about this scripture?
2Tim 2:26 … and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
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Mark wrote:
I honestly think alot of this comes from people subconsciously wanting to relegate responsibility to someone else. Who better than a demon? It gives you the ability to deal with your problems without having to a acknowledge that they come from you.
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@ Victorious:
Point well taken. Question I have is how much we should blame a demon or ourselves for our problems we are supposed to overcome? I was always taught that the “devil made me do it” is as lame an excuse as ” the dog ate my homework.”
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@ Corbin Martinez:
Corbin, I absolutely agree that some prefer to blame a demon rather than take responsibility for their actions. But (there’s always a but, isn’t there?) I think we need to acknowledge the influence satan has in the world and specifically in our individual lives. How we respond to temptation, deception, etc. is where we are held accountable. Paul said we should be aware of the schemes of the devil:
2Co 2:11 so that no advantage would be taken of us by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his schemes.
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@ Mark:
Here’s what I just posted to Corbin that I think answers your question.
I think we need to acknowledge the influence satan has in the world and specifically in our individual lives. How we respond to temptation, deception, etc. is where we are held accountable.
It’s not always easy to determine which is the cause; satan or our flesh. But knowing his schemes from the names scripture gives helps. I also believe that the gift of discernment is one given for just this purpose though many will disagree. I see this gift in action when the slave girl in Acts 16 follows Paul for days announcing that they are “bond servants of the Most High….” What she was say was true, but the way she was antagonizing them for days led Paul to recognize the spirit behind the actions. I think that was the gift of discernment.
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@ Victorious:
When I say “this” I mean the very extreme, fear based type teachings we’re talking about, not a healthy wisdom of spiritual warfare. Of course demons tempt us, but that’s different from making rulebooks of how and when you’re in bondage to demons, like Morris is here.
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@ Victorious:
Vs 25 says this
“Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,”
This leads me to believe that this section of scripture is discussing unbelievers who are opposed to the message of Christ. The discussion at hand has been concerning believers being indwed by a demon.
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@ Corbin Martinez:
One of them is Jewish.
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@ Victorious:
How do you square that with Jesus’ saying “Now is the prince of this world cadt out?” And other, similar passages about the cross and resurrection bringing about his defeat, for that matter…
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@ Corbin Martinez:
How do you know that demons are responsible for temptation? This is a serious question, btw.
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Bridget wrote:
You are correct, Bridget. I meant to bold the “snare of the devil” phrase since I found that phrase used of both unbelievers and believers as well. This one is a warning directed to overseers in the church:
1Ti 3:7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil
.
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numo wrote:
Not entirely sure, numo, but I’m thinking the cross was the beginning of the end of satan so to speak. I think his final end is mentioned in Revelation:
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Rev 20:3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
Just as Jesus announced the Kingdom of God was at hand 2,000 yrs. ago, but won’t be fully realized until the end of the age.
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@numo I don’t think that there is a certain universal method for finding out if you’re being tempted by a demon.
As for biblical evidence, nothing really comes to mind as a solid example. People get tempted all throughout the bible, but it never totally says if it’s a the person or a demon. (Except for eve, with which I don’t think the context fits the question) I guess you could use Jesus being tempted in the wilderness, but I think that has a whole lot of problems with it. (Please correct me if I’m wrong, my biblical knowledge isn’t where I’d like it to be.)
Then again, if the devil really does come to kill, steal and destroy, then I think it’s safe to assume that tempting is sometimes part of that. I don’t think the exact way that works out with our own sinful flesh is of much importance; we’re called to resist and rebuke (yes, I know. Pentecostal word) both.
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Doug wrote:
Hi Doug, no widespread face recognition software (yet). Since Gateway is managed like a business, many metrics are used. Every class, activity, meeting or small group is carefully tracked and statistics aka metrics are recorded on all of it. They constantly calculate the ratios on activities, then the cost verses giving ratios per “giving unit” which is what attendees are called. Gateway calls 2014 “The Year of Optimization”. Not “The Year of the Bible” or “The Year of Prayer” or “The Year of Jesus”. Nope. The Year of Optimization. God must be so proud. In August 2014 Gateway rolled out their new multi-million dollar software app “My Gateway” which is a social media type app that tracks your “spiritual development” using their metric data on you so that they can help you to maximize your spiritual growth by becoming involved in more Gateway centric activities. If you’ve ever signed up for anything at Gateway you have been assigned a “number” whether you know it or not. They even ripped off Perry Noble’s New Spring slogan of “every number has a name, every name has a story, and every story matters to God” (no attribution to New Spring naturally) for their 2013 financial round up. It all starts with the giving unit being assigned and entered as a number first. At the core of all this, you are just a number to them. Notice that neither church says that your story matters to them.
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@ LT:
Sounds like everyone at gateway has a second SSN number. They just don’t get to know what it is?
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@Bridget
There is a unique Gateway ID assigned to each person who voluntarily registers for any youth event, adult class or activity. You can see your own number on your annual giving statement, so it’s not exactly a secret number.
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dee wrote:
http://annualreport.gatewaypeople.com/
There are a lot of flash/java items that play in the browser, including videos.
You have to scroll down to download the pdf of the financial report. For 2013, there were $88MM in regular contributions and $8MM in capital gifts (heart for the kingdom) so that’s $96MM. That was a 16% increase over 2012. In 2014 the attendance is higher than 2013.
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Doug wrote:
There are definitely stats on who gives what, as long as you are registered. Visitors are not tracked. The offering boxes are in the back, nothing passed down the aisles. Most people give online so that has to be reconciled from their bank statements to individual accounts. There are over 30 accounting staff, mostly in “accounts receivable” which means revenue and tracking of contributions.
About 4-5 years ago, Morris bragged that he personally checked the tithing records of the guy who was dating his only daughter to determine if he was suitable to marry her. Apparently Ethan was “late once” and this fact was identified and discussed. Both Ethan and Robert have separately testified that those were the facts (he was late once, and Robert checked it all and caught the one time).
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Just wanted to say thanks to people for praying. The family looked @ one place today for Dad that seems really nice. Thankfully Mom saved up a lot of $ from overtime when she was working, so Dad will go through all the $, but hopefully will have a good place to live. Still looking at other places, but maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel.
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Sarah wrote:
“He’s giving you a number and takin’ away your name”
When you become a member of a megachurch you cease to exist as a human being, you have become a Giving Unit and been assimilated- it’s a religion worthy of the Borg.
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dee wrote:
Morris does not track tax returns and members are not required to provide any statement of personal income. (Mormons are known to do this).
There are about 350-400 small groups going at any one time. They roll on and they roll off. Most groups have tag-team leaders or tag-team couples, so the hosting burden is shared. The time factor is such an obstacle that “7-week” groups are now being encouraged to minimize the commitment.
So a reasonable estimate would be 600+ current leader families, or over 1,000 individuals who are active small group leaders. There are section leaders and an entire hierarchy of supervision and management of curriculum and attendance tracking. It’s OK to have a group that does nothing but hobbies/special interests, and no requirement to read or study the bible. There is even a commercial about the motorcycle group at Gateway.
With 36,000 attending weekly, maybe 26,000 are adults, and groups are probably 8-12 adults x 375 ~ 3,750, or around 10-15% of adults are in a group.
BTW, each group leader is required to “cast a vision” for their group.
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dee wrote:
Morris is able to leverage contributions much higher due to two main factors.
1. False teaching on the tithe or else your finances and children will be cursed.
2. The median household income in Southlake/Colleyville/Westlake is over $220,000/yr.
So even if the average is “only” 5-6% (vs say 2.5-4.0% for most Protestant churches) then a typical Southlake “giving unit” would be giving over $10,000/year (and many would be giving over $20,000/yr).
Not everyone who attends Gateway lives in Southlake, as surrounding areas of Ft Worth, Roanoke, Keller, and North Richland Hills are much closer to $60,000-$100,000 household income ranges.
Of course there are some who give none and still attend. But there is a lot of pressure. The “Blessed Life” is Robert’s “life message” and it’s worked into almost every class, group, or activity. There are financial classes offered constantly to cut consumer spending and give more to the church (Dave Ramsey).
There are also a number of superstar athletes and mega-wealthy members. Example: Vernon Wells is a member. A few years back, he signed a $127 million contract for baseball. That’s $12.7 million potential revenue for Morris/Gateway. Add the Jonas Brothers, Marcus & Joni Lamb, Josh Hamilton, & Jason Whitten, who are all members of Gateway.
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numo wrote:
I’m curious as well Corbin.
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Sarah wrote:
Thanks Sarah. I’ll skip the email then. I would just add that all employees are required to tithe the full 10% of their gross in order to work there so their tithes are compared against their GW gross income. Small group leaders do not need to submit tax returns or w-2’s but their tithing records are reviewed for consistency (the application warns you of this in advance) and if your tithe wasn’t really in line with your demographics you could be called in. It’s basically the honor system but with potential for others reporting against you not unlike reports recommending in The Little Red Book. Realistically though, it’s time consuming and expensive to host a group so no one would be foolish or brazen enough to risk getting called out. Discussions regarding “personal sin” frequently ensue in these groups and at GW there is no greater sin than failing to tithe, except perhaps saying you tithe when you don’t.
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@ numo:
@ Albuquerque Blue:
It is how Satan made his first appearance. As he said to Eve ‘Did God really say? From Genesis 3 NIV (Gateway)
Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” 2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”
4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
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@ Albuquerque Blue:
And just caught your answer to Numo, so disregard. Thanks for sharing your take.
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@ dee:
Thank you Dee, and thanks Corbin for answering. How do they tempt though? Is there direct conversation like with Eve, or is it some other mechanism?
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William G. wrote:
This friend speaks my mind.
Do these people [Morris &Co.] not realize how their presumption offends Almighty God? Or do they just not care?
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@ Albuquerque Blue:
I believe all they’re really able to do(to Christians) is make very subtle mental suggestions that the vast majority of the time you’ll mistake for yourself. There’s the hard part, discerning with wisdom who is really influencing you.
While I think the fall is good proof that Satan tempts, how he does it today is much sneaky-er (great grammar) and not nearly as dramatic as trying to bring the downfall of the human race.
What do you think?
P.S. love the military cat I.D. picture.
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Corbin Martinez wrote:
Thanks for getting back to me, Corbin! I’m just going to rephrase to make sure I’m understanding you here.
So spirits (in this case demons) influence a persons thinking without them being aware of it, mentally compelling them. Do I have that right?
Corbin Martinez wrote:
Oh I don’t have much of a religious opinion on this subject, more just want to understand how some Christians think. I’ve always been curious what mechanism these spirits are supposed to use to tempt people and the answers I’ve gotten have certainly been diverse.
Thanks on the cat, I saw it and knew I’d found my new gravatar. ^_^
I saw this cat and had to have it. ^_^
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@ Albuquerque Blue:
To chime in. You used the word “compel” and I don’t think that would be the right word. Compel infers a sort of making, or, forcing someone to do something. And as others in this thread have correctly pointed out scripture is quite clear that those who are born again belong to Christ and are not able to be “forced”.
To use a simple analogy. I have to watch what I eat….genetics and all that…. If my wife purposely puts a big bowl of ice cream in front of me she is “tempting” me to make a choice that I know isn’t what is best for me. What I choose to do with that is up to me.
My thoughts for the “influence” that satan has in a believers life are sort of like that. No one(including Beezlebub himself) can make me do anything. My choices are on me. But he can put a whole bunch of cookies in cream ice cream in front of me….
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@Albuquerque blue. (Sorry your name isn’t linked, my phone is messing up so I have to write this in Gmail and then paste it hear XD)
You said:“ I’m just going to rephrase to make sure I’m understanding you here.
So spirits (in this case demons) influence a persons thinking without them being aware of it, mentally compelling them. Do I have that right?”
I’d be careful of the word influence, to me it can denote a sense of superiority and dominance. I think sometimes, yes, demonic forces can and do SUGGEST *Key word* things to people , and for a number of different reasons we think it’s us talking to ourselves. (I’m speaking of Christians, obviously.)
The exact way spiritual beings communicate with us is impossible to really understand from a rational perspective; just like how I don’t really understand how God can exist even when he isn’t technically physically present, yet I still choose and am convicted to believe in him.
Here’s an example of a situation where I’d be pretty sure a demon was involved in my thinking: if someone does something to me that usually only annoys me, and yet I attack them mentally, calling them stupid and dumb and wishing they would just go away, ( I’ve done this) that’s a pretty good opportunity to stop and examine myself. Such an angry outburst for something so insignificant in comparison is a good sign that maybe some of those thoughts aren’t from myself. Then again, they really might be and I’d need some help from an older and wiser Christian.
Do you see what I’m trying to say? There isn’t a specific formula to this issue; the ability to discern comes from growing and maturing in the faith.
If you’re not religious (that’s what I think you were saying) this might sound really weird to you. I can understand. Remember that my beliefs on this issue are quite calm, just look at the pastors this series is about.
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Adam Borsay wrote:
Yes!! Thank you.
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@ Victorious:
Since Revelation is apocalyptic literature – full of symbolism – i think it behooves us to be very careful about reading it as if it was intended to be a play by play account of anything. Additionally, since I’m coming from a Lutheran perspective, i do not believe in a literal thousand year reign.
Look at it this way – do you read the description of Babylon, or of ghe besdt, literally? I can’t think of a single person (in my experience) who reads all scripture at face value, as literal descriptions of yhings – and I’m willing to bet you don’t, either.
Many conservative (mostly not evangelical) Biblical scholars ferl that Revelation was written to the early church and is concerned with events of *that* time, rather than being a big prophetic revelation of the far future. Keep in mind that Paul and others anticipated the return of Christ in *their* lifetimes. The understanding of many things has changed over the centuries, and, for that matter, the earliest xtians had to readjust a lot of their expectations in light of some of the things i just mentioned.
If i still subscribed to a literal reading of parts of the book, i would likely agree with you, but haven’t been there for some years now. I think there are overarching themes in the book, and that we can at leadt partially “get” those, but the extraordinarily dense imagery and symbolism is extremely difficult to understand this side of the 1st century a.d. Imo, anyway.
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@ Corbin Martinez:
But how do you determine, in a factual manner, that a demon is tempting you, as opposed to something within your own psyche?
I honestly don’t see how demonic origin of trmptation can be vetified, because it is a belief, not a certainty. The same is true when it gets down to trying to prove the existence of God. Now, i certsinly believe that God is real, but that is a matter of faith/belief, not verifiable fact. I’m trying to gently suggest some thinking outside of the box (for you) here. I would never contest your right to believe as you do, but i wonder if at least some of that belief comes from your family and church environment (in other words, the beliefs you’ve been around all your life) rather than from anything either found in the NT itself, or in careful scholarly examination of texts, their context, ancient Near Eastern history and more?
Asking questions,being willing to feel doubt and do some research and be challenged is an essential part of both life and faith, i think. I know this is true for me, and equally, i know what it is to believe things because evetyone around you believes them and their beliefs are the only ones you’ve ever bern exposed to.
Let me finish by saying that i do not believe the Bible itself is terribly concerned with being a manual of verifiable facts. I think its writers would be surprised by the whole notion, because their purpose in writing was quite different from that. I doubt they even had the modern concept of “verifiable facts” in their respective cultures.
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@ dee:
Ok, I’ll be honest and say right upfront that i no longer believe that said text regers to the devil, or at least, the idea of the devil as it has bern developed throughout the existence of xtianity. There was some eccellent discussion on this 2 weeks ago at iMonk. Chaplain Mike did a series on this that was amazing, and which i highly recommend.
The understanding of this story as literal fact in all its details is a relatively recent development. Personally, i think Adam and Eve are Everyman and Evetywoman, and that the story is symbolic/allegorical. Which is the common undetstanding of it during the early centuries of the church.
I think our own hearts and minds are fully capable of leading us just as far astray as Adam and Eve, without any need for outside prompting!
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@ numo:
Should have clarified about the iMonk posts. CM took the perspective of Genesis and the 2nd creation account in particular being very much a part of the ancient Near Eastern genre of wisdom literature. To me, that makes SO much more sense (and is more in line with early readings of the book) than any “literal” reading, and adds a lot of depth and nuance to our understsnding of what’s being communicated there.
Yeah, i know, us craxy high church types, non-literalist, non-inerrantist! 😉
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__
“Cost Raito’s Rising?”
“…cost verses giving ratios per “giving unit” which is what attendees are called.” ~ LT
__
Hey LT ,
hmmm… (4grins)
Q: Approximate Gateway 501(c)3 non-profit business statistics:
Q: Approximately what is the average ‘cost’ per seat @ Gateway, per Sunday?
Q: Approximately what is the average ‘giving’ per seat @ Gateway, per Sunday?
Q: Approximately what is the average ‘attendance unit’ @Gateway, (all campus’) per Sunday?
—
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numo wrote:
I partially agree with you because I am a partial preterist. There is little question that Revelation was written before the great diaspora in 70AD. Had such an event occurred, there is little question that it would have been mentioned somewhere in the book.
However, just because lots of it waswritten for the church of that day does not mean that some of it isn’t prophetic. The same goes for Daniel and Isaiah. There is type and then antitype which is a literary device that can be used to show something can be true then and later simultaneously.
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Adam Borsay wrote:
I agree with you. Demons are not powerful when it comes to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. They are, to use a current theme, “the junior varsity.” However, just like the junior varsity, they can present obstacles such as temptations. However, Christians are playing with a Professional who can show us the way around,.
Also, Satan is known as the Father of Lies and utilizes mind games to play with us. Just like in Genesis, he causes us to question. “Do you really think God loves you after you did that?”
I like the idea that Satan and his gang fan the flames of our own sin and inadequacies. They are not the cause of the flame. That flame is our sin nature.
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numo wrote:
That is most assuredly true. And that is precisely why Satan is known as the Deceiver. He can’t be *proven* but I believe, along with NT Wright, that he exists and causes much pain. I cannot write off all the verses in Scripture that refer to this as allegory.
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Albuquerque Blue wrote:
Head games.
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@ dee:
Ok, but i think you are missing my point.
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@ Victorious:
To be precise, the spiritual gift needed is distinguishing of spirits, a Spirit-enabled ability to see right through to the origin of a man’s teaching or what is influencing his bahaviour. What is driving him. I’m sure if you do a study in demonlogy based on the NT you will find enough information to indicate what signs to look out for if trying to discern the underlying cause of a problem and whether demons are involved, but this spiritual gift is essential as well.
Those who believe all this ceased with the completion of the canon are cutting themselves off from a useful tool of the trade. They just won’t ‘see’ it. In fact isn’t a failure to exercise discernment a besetting failure of the modern evangelical church? It’s all very well for MacArthurville &Co to ‘defend’ the bible against charismatics (so called), but a lot has been going on right under their noses and they just haven’t seen it. The things I am talking about are the reasons this blog exists. If you don’t ask for the gifts, you won’t receive them.
fwiw I agree with most of what Patti has said on this above, I think we may have a certain level of parallel experience.
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dee wrote:
Would it help to talk about it? … 🙂
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Haitch wrote:
And one that’s up to its eyeballs in lawsuits now. Boy, it’s good to see Narconon get its comeuppance.
Yes, avoid Narconon at all costs. Not so easy, since it works very hard to hide its Scientology connections, at times even operating under different names. But if it claims a 75% or higher success rate, you’re probably dealing with Narconon.
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numo wrote:
Let me take this idea and rephrase it for my purpose in this comment. How do we know that anything at all is outside of us as opposed to something which originated in our brain? And the answer is, mostly we don’t know that because everything is mediated through the brain.
Example: The brain lives in total darkness, but the picture that the brain paints for us which we call sight does not look dark to us as we experience it and “understand it.” Similarly they brain interprets the “outside world” to us through all our senses, and then “explains it” based on what it “knows.” Watch humans with an infant when the infant looks at something or reaches for something and we tell the infant the name and show the infant what the thing “does” teaching the brain what it “knows.” So we interact in the process. We don’t have to teach the brain that pain is unpleasant however, it “knows” that usually in most people, so this interaction is just that-interaction. But we do not understand until the brain shows us and explains to us.
So what makes us think there is a God, and for goodness sake why think that we or the prophets of old or anybody ever had any contact with such a thing as God? Where is the evidence, since all they knew and all we know is what our brain tells us, regardless if there is physical sight or religious vision, physical hearing or hallucination or the sort of hearing that people claim when they say they have been called to this or that, or some charismatic experience since everything is mediated through the brain. Is there “something out there” which our brain perceives in ways which we do not (yet?) understand, and is the brain picturing and interpreting more than we realize? Maybe, could be. There are sounds which we do not hear, and parts of the light spectrum which we do not see, so sure it is IMO overwhelmingly probable that we have not yet discovered everything that may be there which we do not perceive or understand.
So how do we live with this problem? I have some ideas which work for me, but that is another issue.
References: The ideas I have expressed about physical sight can be found online in various curricula for elementary and early middle school science, and that is where I got it. The idea that religious experiences and such are also mediated through the brain and the brain is limited in its options for methodologies I got from something I read about a month ago, and I am about 95% sure it was N.T. Wright, but of the several books of his which I have I don’t want to search it out for this reference.
So, to the question of is it something from one’s own psych, the answer is yes. To the question of where did the psyche get it in the first place, the answer is may this maybe that and mostly we don’t begin to have the answers.
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Nancy wrote:
maybe this and maybe that
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@ numo:
Very well put.
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numo wrote:
As an aside on this subject, Slacktivist mentioned that Hal Lindsay’s 85th birthday was last weekend. Hal Lindsay. The guy who popularized Revelation as an item-by-item CHECKLIST of FACT, FACT, FACT, going down by 1988 at the latest. The Checklist that messed up my head and a lot of others. The Checklist that made Hal Lindsay a very rich man.
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William G. wrote:
If 95% of Christians are demoniacs, then Morris & Co can admire themselves in the mirror for being the Only True Remnant with the Holy Spirit instead. And have a target-rich environment for their exorcisms and “discernment” and “deliverance ministry”. And can LARP being Mighty Spiritual Warriors, always alert to (and AFRAID of) SATAN himself slipping his whoopee cushion under their butts every time they turn around. “Demon of burned-out light bulbs”, anyone?
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Corbin Martinez wrote:
With my shall-we-say-weird background, the first association that comes to mind when I hear “bondage” is “BEAT ME! WHIP ME! MAKE ME WRITE BAD CHECKS!”
(Almost typoed “bongage” instead of “bondage”, which brings up a whole new set of imagery…)
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LT wrote:
“BEAT ME! WHIP ME! MAKE ME WRITE BAD CHECKS!”
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Adam Borsay wrote:
“MMMMMM… DONUTS….”
— Homer Simpson
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JeffT wrote:
“You are Number Six.”
“Who is Number One?”
“That would be Telling.”
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Corbin Martinez wrote:
“THE DEBBIL MADE ME DO IT!”
— Flip Wilson’s Geraldine
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Corbin Martinez wrote:
As far as I know they weren’t, though one of them was raised Jewish. Stan & Kyle are very wacked-out versions of author self-inserts (and Mr Hankey the Xmas Poo was for real).
However they both grew up in the south end of Park County, Colorado, which isn’t that far from Utah/Deseret, so there was probably a strong Mormon presence in the area. And one of their famous episodes was on Mormons, when a Mormon family moves into town and starts prosletyzing.
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Adam Borsay wrote:
That is a good rule of thumb to some extent, but it also can be taken too far. For example, your own brain chemistry can make you believe something which is not true to anybody but you (as we see in certain physical and psychiatric illnesses.) I am not saying that “the devil made me do it” should be a starting place for anything. On the other hand, some of these people think that depression is a choice, while lots of us disagree with that. At the other end of the spectrum some people want to cast out the demon of depression, and some people want depressed people to repent of their depression and confess the sin of depression. And here lots of us stand saying that can’t be right because not all the possibilities have been considered, like illness for instance.
I doubt you would go so far as to tell everybody in every circumstance, well it was your own fool fault. However, there are those who would, and that is why I mention this.
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Here are links to FBC Jax Watchdog articles that contain video of Morris and his “demon possession” teaching, and also Ronnie Floyd’s endorsement of Robert Morris:
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2013/10/robert-morris-lays-down-law-non-tithers.html
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2014/06/ronnie-floyds-endorsement-of-robert.html
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Ken wrote:
…depends on which version of the Bible one uses whether it’s discernment or distinguishing. 🙂
I had an experience one time where the spirit in a man recognized the spirit in me and he literally came at me with a look in his eyes that was pure hatred. He was driving one of those electric carts in the grocery store and came charging straight for me though I wasn’t anywhere in his way. I looked at him and thought he was going to apologize, but he backed up and came toward me again.
I just walked away.
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numo wrote:
Of course it does. My Pentecostal Upbringing makes me less suspicious of these types of occurrences than the average Christian. I realize that and keep it in mind and try not to let it have to much of an influence on me.
Can I actually show you factual evidence that I’ve been tempted by a demon? No. But I can’t show you factual evidence that God exists either.
Here’s my belief basically: if satan (and his demons) really are our enemies( and are actual beings, not euphemisms for our flesh) and they come to kill, steal, and destroy, it’s safe to assume that tempting is part of leading us astray.
My parents believe much more than that. I don’t really get how they justify it. They believe that demons can literally like put things in your path. Example: one of my dad’s favorite car’s are Acura nsx’s. He was going through a bad time and kept seeing them on the road, even though it’s a fairly rare car. He told me satan was showing these cars to him, trying to make him jealous and unthankful.
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@ numo:
Sorry-I have my mind on Thanksgiving and my stepfather needs an epidural this afternoon so I am a bit scattered. Pls reiterate.
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@ Ken:
So long as you understand that I am a *partial* preterist and not a full preterist.
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Nancy wrote:
Well stated.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Ok. I heard that they were raised Mormon a long time ago.
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I am happy to report that AT&T has now come and cast out the demon of the blinking red DSL light on my modem by totally replacing how they are wired to my house, from the ground up at the connection at the house. Funny how demons work like that.
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@ Tom R
I have had a good laugh over Ronnie Floyd quoting Robert Morris. Remember, this is the SBC who *outlawed* private prayer languages for missionaries. A lot of these leaders are nuts when it comes to theology.
Piper loves Mark Driscoll’s theology. Forget about the crazy stuff. He is *one of us.* Ronnie loves Morris’ view on tithing so he overlooks the other stuff.
These guys are not faithful to what they believe. It is adjustable when it is convenient.
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I am always amazed at how some teachers claim to be orthodox and claim to be Christ centered, but they will be quick to proclaim how Christ is powerless to do this or that unless one follows the teacher’s formula, whatever it is. It is an absurd notion that we somehow empower God. God gives us things to do and he empowers us, not the other way around.
Eric Fry wrote:
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@ dee:
No worries, Dee. I think ee are coming at this from slightly digferent angles.
Hope all goes well for you today, and that your T-giving dinner goes off without a hitch!
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Victorious wrote:
It’s ‘distinguishing’ in the Relatively Superior Version, but I have not had time to check the Numuerous Imperfections Version …
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__
…if you’re not a full ‘Grabway’ tither, you’ve got an ‘enemy’ …ME. ~ Riga-Morri$
—
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Ken wrote:
It’s ‘distinguish’ in the Extremely Superior Version
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Ken wrote:
and ‘discernment’ in the No Religious Standards Version
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@ Nancy:
no argument from me, Nancy!
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Corbin Martinez wrote:
oh man, this sounds SO much like the kinds of things I heard in many, many churches, back in the day. They were charismatic, but had a strong dose of AoG thought and practice.
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Corbin Martinez wrote:
Respectfully Corbin, I think that if we look hard enough, we can find a daemon under every rock. I also think that we flatter ourselves way too much when we insist that Satan’s minions have their life’s mission in tempting us to ‘sin’. In my opinion, they and their leader have much bigger fish to fry.
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Ken wrote:
In the Greek, it’s διακρίσεις. It basically means “to judge through”; that is, to judge all the way through. It’s also used in Romans 14:
Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. (NASB)
And in Hebrews 5:
But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil. (also NASB)
Which gives you a decent idea.
The spiritual manifestation of discerning of spirits is typically applied to demonic or angelic spirits. But 1 Corinthians doesn’t specify as much, and the Biblescribshers do state that we have spirits of our own (that are part of us, as in, body, mind and spirit). So I rather think Paul is thinking as much about the discernment of what is in a person’s own spirit as he is about discerning the actions of a demon or angel.
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Corbin Martinez wrote:
If you think about it, since Satan does not have the ability to be everywhere at once, the entire planet was not being bothered by him when he was busy with your dad. I am in the same camp as Muff on this.
No one has been able to tell me exactly how this stuff works, so….
Glad you haven’t bought into it.
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Happy Thanksgiving to all! Back on Monday! Go Pack!
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In other news, it turns out that smoked mackerel does go well with thai peanut sauce.
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@ Doug:
Yeah, that “omnipresence” bit seems to be a truism in both Pentecostal and charismatic circles. As if the devil was God’s equal. In a now-dated phrase, NOT. (Am not using caps to yrll, just being emphatic!)
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@ Nancy:
Thank you for making me smile!
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__
A Happy Thanksgiving to all of you!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ961y0VKEk
(grin)
hahahahahaha
Sopy
🙂
—
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@ numo:
My dad is……….unique. as demon savvy as he is, just last night he told me,“ you know? The Pentecostals are really gonna have alot to answer for on judgement day.”
Statements like that are completely normal for him.
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@ Doug:
Well, by my parents logic, it would just be a demon sent by satan. But I’m still not comfortable with the status and power it gives demons.
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Muff Potter wrote:
I agree. But at the same time, what bigger fish could there be? I don’t think angels and demons literally fight somehow.
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@ Nancy:
Glad the blinking red demon is gone!
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@ Sopwith:
Thank you Sopy! Happy Thanksgiving to you too! And thanks for the Charlie Brown memories!
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zooey111 wrote:
As a rule I accept the sincerity of religious leaders unless their own confession suggests I should believe otherwise, even when these religious leaders are financially exploiting their followers. Judge not lest ye not be judged. There is much to suggest that however fraudulent his motives may have been at the start of his career, L Ron Hubbard believed in Scientology at the time of his death. In the alleged epistle he wrote to those receiving the highest degree he specifically lashed out at Jesus and declared himself the Antichrist. Now obviously he wasn’t, but this is an example of what the Eastern Orthodox call Prelest, or Spiritual Delusion. Sincere religious beliefs which lead to destruction as the result of the failure of the leader to control the passions. The victims are the people who chose to follow someone into prelest, however, allowing this is the price of religious freedom.
So while I cannot and will not say what the motivations are of these people, I will say that I doubt they are aware of the blasphemous nature of their teaching, and would repent and correct for it of they could be made aware. I am a proponent of muscular ecumenism, a kind of missionary effort to target the people Wartburg Watch deals with, to attempt to witness for Christ to them and guide them to repentance, which can involve their continued but reformed ministry. By muscular, I mean intense, prayerful and uncompromising, not violent or coercive, in the sense that St. Mary was muscular.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Let me recommend “Going Clear” by Lawrence Wright. He’s a Pulitzer-prize winning author who writes for the New Yorker (which is where this book started out). Or you can wait until the HBO documentary comes out, scheduled for 2015. The president of HBO’s documentary division told the Hollywood Reporter this week that it has *160* lawyers (!!!!) working on this one documentary.
And Louis Theroux (most famous for documenting Westboro Baptist “Church”) is also making a documentary for the BBC. He’s interviewed a bunch of people I know. That’s also scheduled for 2015 but not sure when it will hit the USA.
Almost 20 years ago, Scientology was stomping around and raiding and suing people. How times have changed!
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Corbin Martinez wrote:
I think people believe they’re Mormon because they did a movie called “Orgazmo” (1997) which has a Mormon theme to it. But they’re not.
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@ mirele:
Also because of the musical, The Book of Mormon.
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numo wrote:
Including me….though my conservatism is admittedly only skin deep…..
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@ mirele:
Thanks, Mirele. I’ll be sure to get that book.
What’s the documentary with the people you know about?
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Corbin Martinez wrote:
Good point. Vague words can be damaging used by powerful personalities in group think, social pressure churches.
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Ali wrote:
Exactly, though I think vague maybe isn’t the best adjective now. What I was trying to say is that the word’s meaning has a broad spectrum of definition or intensity, and authoritarian leaders use that to their advantage. Did you get that when you read it?
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LT wrote:
Anyone who willingly listens to Glenn Beck deserves him and it. So attenders at GWC – most probably rich and powerful – won’t get a lot of sympathy from me.
What bothers me more is the poorer church members all over the country whose pastors bring in Robert Morris or his ideas to get their members to pony up (to quote Mac Brunson – see Tom Rich’s videos) even more of the money they don’t have.
Telling anyone who struggles financially to give to the local tax-exempt religious organisation rather than pay their electricity bills, their taxes, their rent – that really is beyond the pale.
I think that Robert Morris is truly evil. If you watch this slick salesman do his spiel at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S-3nbC5Z3U , you want to throw up.
He may be taking from the rich and give some of it to the poor at his church, but all across the U.S., and probably soon enough all across the world, his net effect is that of a reverse Robin Hood – he robs the poor to give to the rich (pastors).
Problem with his teaching: he sounded almost convincing in the video linked to above, at least to someone who spent 10 years listening to that kind of stuff like myself.
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Doug wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6TdM02Jt-k
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Gus wrote:
My closest approach to Glenn Beck (He Who Out-Rushes Rush Limbaugh) was a guy who apprarently used Glenn Beck as a financial planner. I do NOT miss those phone calls at weird hours tipping me off to “GOLD! GOLD! GOLD! GUNS! GOLD! GOLD! GOLD! GAWD!” (I’m pretty sure “alcohol was involved”; since the guy joined AA I haven’t gotten thst type of call from him.) Or the other guy who used to spam my inbox with “FOR GOD’S SAKE LISTEN TO GLENN BECK NOW!!!!!” with links to Glenn Beck podcasts or YouTube videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUgB1kKGesM
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mirele wrote:
A lot of people credit that South Park episode with being the tipping point.
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numo wrote:
“HELLO! MY NAME IS ELDER YOUNG!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdVUCpu5yhw
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JeffT wrote:
Very good!!
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
“I got a rock.”
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@ Sopwith:
And a Happy Thanksgiving to you too Sopy! And if nobody wants the gizzard, heart, and liver where you’re at, I’ll take em’…(smiley face goes here)
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@ Muff Potter:
Most of it goes in the stuffing at our house, Muff 😉
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Have a good Thanksgiving everyone. I’m off on an elk hunt. 🙂
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Corbin Martinez wrote:
Don’t get me wrong Corbin, I am a firm believer in the supernatural. So much so that I’m often at odds with my fellow liberals and progressives over it. In my opinion, the Enlightenment has given rise to a kind of uber-rationalism which poo-poohs just about anything that cannot be measured and verified with the grid modern science. Here are just two examples from Scripture:
1)A fantastical creature described as a talking snake.
2)the Almighty talking out of his @$$ to Balaam
In my view they can have both a literal and a figurative meaning.
I refuse to confine myself to one box dictated by others who insist upon only one possible meaning.
As far as bigger fish to fry? I think Paul alludes to the pan in Ephesians 6:12.
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Anna wrote:
I hear you, Anna. ((()))
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“He claims that you must admit that you have a demon. If you do, you can get free.
“If you feel helpless and powerless or have to confess a sin over and over again, you are in bondage with a demon.
“Jesus cannot set you free unless you know you are in bondage!”
It almost sounds like that, if you deny you have a demon, you are going to be harangue by those in leadership until you admit that you have one. The only way out is admitting that you have a demon.
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@ Tina:
Exactly. And very unfortunate at that.
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For those who might be interested am in the process of posting a comment on the open discussion page about a recent experience that some might consider demonic. It was not demonic nor did I think it was, but for those who are interested in this sort of thing you may find the description interesting. It it s the story of how I ended up spending thanksgiving as a patient in the ER.
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Tina wrote:
Like a therapist I briefly saw in the Eighties who was convinced I was really Homosexual but In Denial. Every claim that I was straight was interpreted as “You’re In Denial”. Other than that therapist, the only time I encountered that particular circular logic was a high-pressure pick-up line from a same-sex sexual predator.
It’s also akin to Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory, where all evidence against The Conspiracy is PROOF of The Conspiracy.
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Corbin Martinez wrote:
My Dear Wormwood:
Remember my previous epistle about semantics, specifically redefining words into their “diabolical meanings”?
Your Ravenously Affectionate Uncle,
Screwtape
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Gus said:
“Telling anyone who struggles financially to give to the local tax-exempt religious organisation rather than pay their electricity bills, their taxes, their rent – that really is beyond the pale.”
That’s pretty obvious of course, but just as bad IMO is pressuring people who are largely living paycheck to paycheck to tithe that 10% gross instead of actually saving for retirement, or building up a financial cushion, inheritance for the kids, etc. Or when a pastor would rather see a family on welfare than heaven forbid, the wife not being a “keeper at home” and having an outside job (sorry if that’s off topic).
Morris & co. didn’t invent the rigid 10% standard or the teaching that it had to be off the gross instead of the net—I’m not sure where the latter in particular originated. These were pushed for many years by men of the stature of the late Larry Burkett, who in turn was promoted by outfits like Focus on the Family. I fear that influence has been spread far and wide.
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These proverbial 501(c)3 ARC pastoral men are teaching God’s people that they can purchase God’s favor (in this case -protection from demons) with tithe money.
What?
God’s favor is freely gIven, by the blood of His Son, Jesus.
Why then are these 501(c)3 pastoral men taking God’s people’s money, but by false pretense?
—
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NJ wrote:
Well, they won’t need retirement savings, what with the imminent second coming, will they?
Sorry for the sarcasm.
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Gus wrote:
Hal Lindsay retired a very rich man through long-term investments. Laughing all the way to the bank while I (and presumably a lot of others) had Rapture flashbacks like a Nam Vet.
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NJ wrote:
If it’s off the gross instead of the net, that’s 30% more Tithe for the ManaGAWD.
Private jets and Furtick Mansions are expensive.
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Sopwith wrote:
“When coin in Tetzel’s coffer rings,
Then your soul to Heaven springs…”
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Former CLC’er wrote:
Beck is a Mormon, but he spoke at Morris’ church.
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@ JeffT:
If Satan was merely a metaphor, then you need to throw out the book of Revelation. Additionally, you’d need to remove the verses where Jesus and the disciples cast out demons. If Satan were a metaphor, and that is your method of interpreting the Bible, then you could make the Bible say anything you want it to.
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Matthew 23:23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
Lots of hypocrites and Pharisees commenting on this post…
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10% of your gross income directly to Gateway Church or you are cursed. I had to misfortune to be at his 1/7 sermon.
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Jesus spent a large part of His ministry exorcising demons, comparable with His healing ministry, consequently deliverance of demonic influence must be as needed as physical healing, then again you of little faith will have neither