How a Letter Meant to Hurt Dee in Her Church and Community Gave Her a Precious Gift Instead

“Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much.”  ― Oscar Wilde link

Two days ago, I was writing an interesting post (at least for me) on child sex abuse in the Amish community when I received a call from my extremely busy husband asking me if I knew anything about a letter being sent, via snail mail, to people about me. He had received a call from a well known, local individual in the medical community. This gentleman said it was *bizarre* and my husband immediately became concerned for my welfare.

This letter was sent to the leadership in my current church, other members of my church including the kind gentleman who is the facilities manager, the receptionist, the choir director, as well as denominational leaders, the chancellor of a well known local university medical center, the chiefs of certain medical divisions, the president of a related denomination's seminary and a cardiology practice which no longer exists. It was also sent to all of the members of a community board on which my husband and I sit. (I am dead serious about all of this.)

You can imagine how filled the last two days have been for me. To top it off, my elderly stepfather contracted pneumonia and I had to call an ambulance early this morning. He is now in the hospital – a hospital which is under the chancellor who received a letter.

Since March 2017, TWW has been receiving (unapproved) comments from a person who calls himself (and I do believe it is a him) *Nobody. * We found the comments threatening but thought the threats referred to God exacting vengeance on us. Instead, it has become obvious that *Nobody* has taken on the role of avenging angel.

The Redacted Letter

You will need to go to this link to read the letter. We have redacted the names of the church, denomination and all individuals to whom this letter was sent. You will note the letter appears particularly concerned about certain individuals. Also, it is interesting that the letter writer made sure we saw a comment about *Nobody.* (You will need to click again on the page to which you are directed.) [Corrected GBTC]

Anti Dee Letter Redacted

*Nobody* and Tom Chantry

On 3/22, we received 8 comments, all under a Tom Chantry post, which were not approved. Here are two examples. He seems very, very concerned about our writings on Tom Chantry.

Here is a link to the original Tom Chantry post. I have been in touch with Todd Wilhelm over this development and he was able to find out that the trial of Tom Chantry will begin on 11/6/17 and run for an estimated 9 days. We will be following that trial closely.

We believe that *Nobody* is behind the letter that was sent. Do you recall the now infamous Twitter storm that eventually led to Frank Turk closing down his Twitter account and other social media platforms? This occurred in December 2016 when we posted our initial report of Chantry's arrest, You can see some of the Tweets in that post but we will discuss this more in-depth later. Nate Sparks also discussed this firestorm here.

Many of you will remember my tongue in cheek response to being accused of igniting a *holy fury mob.* Trebuchets, anyone?

*Nobody* and Iain Campbell

Twitter was somewhat quiet during the time we were writing about Iain Campbell although there were some disgruntled comments on our blog which we did post. We did not post *Nobody's* comments on the matter.

Here are linklink, and link to our Campbell posts. There is much the Deebs know about this situation from *behind the scenes.* This appears to drive *Nobody* crazy. However we are adamant about confidentiality. It amazes us how many readers we have in Scotland. We stand by our posts on the matter and believe that they were appreciated by quite a few. We ask our readers to continue to pray for the Campbell family, especially Anne.

The Letter and Nobody

I believe that the infamous letter was sent by Nobody due to his anger over our posts about Chantry and Campbell. We have written many similar posts about other individuals and did not receive similar *Nobody* concerns. As an aside, *Nobody* uses a proxy server and we do not allow people who use proxy servers to post on the blog use of a proxy server plus obnoxious commenting behaviour makes it much more likely a comment will not get through. It is often used by troublemakers who wish to stay anonymous because they are too afraid to use their names, unlike the Deebs. [Edit: clarification by GBTC]

The Aftermath

1. Return Address

The person who wrote this letter used the return address of an area denominational headquarters. The denomination was not amused.

2. Anonymous

The single letter writer pretended he was a large group of members of my church denomination. Anonymous letters are not taken seriously by this denomination.

3. The denomination leadership

The denomination leaders who received the letter were in contact with my pastors and said this could be handled locally. I want to thank one *big wig*, he knows who he is, who went to bat for me and even wrote a prayer for me and sent Bible verses to encourage my family. Talk about making me get all weepy and such.

3. My community board

Yawn… They already knew about the blog and have for years.

4. University bigwigs

Did this individual actually think that a large university would be opposed to a blogger writing about child sex abuse in the church? Seriously? This was a further indication that this writer lives in a bubble.

5. My pastors- the best story of all

I do not name my church or my denomination for an important reason. This blog represents the viewpoints of the Deebs and no one else. If there are any doubt as to the wisdom of this decision, this letter speaks for itself. 

True confession: I have been at my church for almost 3 years and officially joined one year ago. In the new members class, I alluded to the fact that I write about child sex abuse. However, I was afraid to say anything more because I was afraid they would be *mad* or that they might *discipline* me. Both my husband and I have been so at home due to the warm and friendly atmosphere that is projected from the pulpit. But, I was still afraid. 

I should have gone with my gut. Although my pastors wished that I had told them about the blog, particularly so they didn't have to learn on the fly> Can you imagine all those people, even the nursery director, bringing this nasty letter to them with questions?! Yet, their very first concern was for my safety. They offered me some wisdom on this and other matters and prayed for me as well.

They asked me why I wanted to post this letter. I told them I had no intentions of posting the letter with church/denomination names. I then explained that so many of our readers have been hurt by rogue pastors and Christian leaders doing precisely this-attempting to hurt people who raise legitimate questions about serious issues. I explained that many have been pursued by legalistic church leaders who are hell bent on ruining any chances for decent people to join another church. I told them that I wanted to stand up to this bully in order to encourage others who have been through this sort of thing.

Guess what? They got it and I have to admit, I got a little teary on the phone. Why? It dawned on me that God had given me a wonderful, unexpected gift. My husband and I have found a church that we love and pastors who we can respect and trust. I want to encourage you all not to get discouraged. There are some awesome church leaders out there and it is worth the search.

To Mr. Nasty Letter Writer:

I want you to know that I forgive you for what you tried to do. I experienced my own Joseph moment. From Genesis 50:20 ESV Bible Gateway

As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

You hoped that my church and denomination would *excommunicate* me. You desired that the leaders of the big university health systems would retaliate against my husband.You anticipated that I would get thrown off my community board.

Instead, I learned an important lesson. I have wonderful, kind and thoughtful pastors in a denomination that responded appropriately to your letter. I realized how many of the recipients of that letter are truly loving people and are also my friends. This means that I can openly continue my work on this blog to help those who have been hurt and let down by their churches, some in the most egregious way possible -child sex abuse.

To our readers:

I would ask that you not discuss or speculate about my church or denomination. I will just say that it is a conservative, liturgical church. We will delete and not approve any comments which do so. The opinions on this blog in no way represents anyone else else but the two of us. However, if you live in our general vicinity and would be interested in seriously visiting the church, please contact me directly. 

Comments

How a Letter Meant to Hurt Dee in Her Church and Community Gave Her a Precious Gift Instead — 440 Comments


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    Wow.


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    1rst


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    second


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    From Dee’s Original Post:

    This letter was sent to the leadership in my current church, other members of my church including the kind gentleman who is the facilities manager, the receptionist, the choir director, as well as denominational leaders, the chancellor of a well known local university medical center, the chiefs of certain medical divisions, the president of a related denomination’s seminary and a cardiology practice which no longer exists. It was also sent to all of the members of a community board on which my husband and I sit.

    Even the church receptionist?

    This guy was thorough. Did he also send a copy to your dentist, UPS, guy and hair dresser??

    OP:

    This gentleman said it was *bizarre* and my husband immediately became concerned for my welfare.

    Would now be a bad time for me to mail you a hand-written letter in crayon with Pug stickers all over the envelope? 🙂

    OP:

    To top it off, my elderly stepfather contracted pneumonia and I had to call an ambulance early this morning. He is now in the hospital-

    I’m sorry to hear that; I hope his health improves soon.


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    I’m still reading down the OP and waiting for the PDF post to finish loading.

    I’m looking at the screen shots by “Nobody” (the posts that didn’t get published). He’s overly dramatic.


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    “However we are adamant about confidentiality. It amazes us how many readers we have in Scotland. We stand by our posts on the matter and believe that they were appreciated by quite a few.”

    Be assured that many many of your posts have been greatly appreciated!!

    (I can’t use the word “All” as I haven’t read all 9 years of your posts.)

    🙂

    Blessings on your house!!!


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    John 13:35. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.

    Gotta say, the Deebs sound like they fit this description.

    Mr Nobody and the anonymous letter sender?

    Not so much.


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    p.s. praying for your stepfather and all who love him.


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    Very encouraging response from your church/pastor. I am so pleased.


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    Quotes from the letter (as shown in the PDF):

    “She [Dee] has personally decided that there is an epidemic of abuse in the evangelical church…”

    LOLOLOLOL!! Letter writer is delusional.

    Dee didn’t have to personally decide anything, it’s obvious to any and all that there are all sort of problems in evangelical churches, from how they are inept to dealing with pedophiles in their midst, to the cruddy, stupid advice they give women domestic violence victims.

    A lot of the information on this blog comes from public media reports.

    Good for Dee for railing against Southern Baptist Al Mohler.

    Mohler is one of those marriage idolaters who builds up marriage at the expense of singleness, he makes single adults out to be second class in God’s kingdom, which runs contrary to what Paul wrote of singleness in 1 Corinthians 7.

    (I was raised in the Southern Baptist church if that matters to the letter writer.)


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    Letter writer said (as displayed in the attached PDF):

    “Don’t get Ms. Parsons started on the subject of male authority in the church…”

    No, don’t get Daisy started on the topic of putrid doctrine of gender complementarianism, which includes “male headship.”

    Letter Writer Guy: I thought that party line of complementarians is that they do NOT believe in “male authority” but that the genders complement each other?
    That they think that “women are equal in worth to men, just not in role” -?

    But now, here is some guy, presumably a complementarian, admitting that complementarianism is not about honoring women, or men lovingly serving their, wives but it’s about male authority.

    Nice Freudian slip!

    Thank you letter writer guy, for saying what some male complementarians REALLY think about complementarianism: complementarianism is about male hierarchy, not men being “loving servants” to their wives.

    Speaking of male authority, Letter Writer, have you seen this in the Bible, from Matthew Chapter 20:

    But Jesus called them aside and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them.
    It shall not be this way among you.
    Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,…


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    Dee’s “magical powers of discernment” -? (said the letter writer in the PDF).

    They’re magical? When I read that line, I pictured Dee in my mind’s eye sitting atop a Unicorn riding down a rainbow.


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    Dear Nobody, thanks for confirming my earlier assessment. Now get some help please. To go to these lengths is indicative of a serious problem that shouldn’t be ignored. You are the one who needs to be introduced to Jesus, ’cause you ain’t got a clue. See what your theology has wrought in your brain?

    Get help before its too late.

    Deebs: praying for you both, families, and safety. Grace.


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    Dee, sounds like you have found a great, truly Christian church family!
    I’ll go read the nobody letter now.


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    Wow, what a week! Never rains but it pours. I do pray your father in law recovers from pneumonia. Also, that you and your husband can settle down and recover your more normal routines.

    I think this man has severe mental health issues. My goodness, he comes off as a prosecutor in the defense of God. He displays a seriously distorted POV.
    It’s unsettling that he contacted all the organizations, including your church affiliations, which you and your husband are affiliated with.

    In any event, the ugliness he has displayed towards you is exactly why women run from Complementarianism. He doesn’t know you but he wants authority over you….sickening.


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    I will give a celebratory toast in your honor tonight! More seriously, please give a warm, thankful handshake to your pastors from BTDT. Had this gone sideways, I think I would have felt it almost as deeply as I felt my own spiritual abuse.

    Here’s my question for “Nobody”: Why didn’t you simply send this letter in email form to Dee? She invited you to show her where she was wrong. The fact that you disseminated this so maliciously tells me that you simply wanted to hurt her, not dialogue with her.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Dee’s “magical powers of discernment” -? (said the letter writer in the PDF).

    There’s nothing magical about Dee’s ability to discern the ails of certain aspects of the New Calvinist movement. The Deebs couple an investigative prowess with simple observation abilities to report what is going on in dark corners of the organized church. They provide an important service to the Body of Christ to inform and warn. Followers of aberrant ministers and ministries which are TWW subjects should be the ones kicking and screaming about abusive leaders, but their blind loyalty prevents them from doing the right thing … so TWW and other watchblogs boldly step into the gap. TWW is a lighthouse to those who have been abused and others still ensnared. They should be encouraged to stay the course, not hindered from their assignment by others who profess to know Christ.


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    God turned an attack into a blessing. Will continue praying. Your blog is a much needed ministry. Also praying for your stepfather.


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    Letter writer said:

    “…amazing she [Dee] can judge before any due process is afforded the accused..”

    When news stories are published online, every one forms a personal opinion on the person and situation they read about.

    That is not illegal or altogether necessarily immoral.

    Re: Iain Campbell. There are several public news reports about this guy. Did Letter Writer send snail mail letters to all these people:

    Via the Sun:
    ‘ADULTERY, SUICIDE AND REVENGE’ Remote Scottish Isle’s web of intrigue over suicide of ‘randy rev’ with claims of up to NINE affairs

    Via Daily Mail:
    “Church suspends mistress of minister who killed himself as his wife demands leaders kick out SEVEN women he had affairs with on remote Scottish island”

    The Aquila Report:
    “Iain D Campbell Accused By His Wife Of Having Affairs With Seven Church Members, Hanged Himself”

    Letter writer said, “Ms Parsons personally determined Campbell was guilty of gross in”

    Yeah, news outlets say he had several affairs of his sin. Sounds guilty. The media were already “airing the tragedies of a Christian to see. … Ought Christians declare guilt and innocence in matters that have no personal connection? … shouldn’t be airing accusations against a man who is dead..”

    The Bible says adultery is a sin. Does Letter Writer disagree?


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    A.Tumbleweed wrote:

    Dear Nobody, thanks for confirming my earlier assessment. Now get some help please.

    His tactics and demeanor reminds me of what I’ve seen and read about the Church of Scientology.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Would now be a bad time for me to mail you a hand-written letter in crayon with Pug stickers all over the envelope?

    Too late 🙂

  23. Pingback: Dee At TWW Gets Attacked By “Nobody” | 1st Feline Battalion


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    I often wonder what people like Nobody think they get out of pulling such a stupid stunt like this. First, he totally underestimates the excellent reputation of his target and her support system, and his letter is so amateur. He rather reminds me of a sixth grade bully. That said, it doesn’t make the trauma any easier to bear and I’m sorry this happened to you, but, I am thankful for the positive support you are receiving, and the wisdom with which you handled it.

    I found TWW when some of the really bad stuff about SGM was emerging. A Pastor in my church had highly recommended Mahoney’s book “The Cross of Christ”, and something about the name rang a-not positive-bell. After an online search, I found that your site was easy to navigate and excellent for information. I am also happy to say that my pastor no longer has the high image of Mahoney he once had, and I ripped up my copy of the book and tossed it in the recycling.

    Although I have ever bee the direct target of the heinous abuse that TWW reports, I have been involved in a couple of churches that fell apart because bad things happened. I appreciate knowing what to do, and ways to reach out to victims of clergy/church abuse that are shared by TWW.


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    Quoting Letter writer from the PDF:

    Parsons’ cult of victimhood is dangerous.

    “Cult of Victimhood.” ?
    LOLOLOL.

    Handwritten note on PDF: “A page of 35 cc’s redacted”

    This person CCd 35 people/groups???

    As far as some of the “Exhibits” this person included (which are shown in the PDF). I do not understand why he’s so upset or offended by some of them.

    Dee is completely right in some of the screen grabs this guy took of her comments to Okrapod and others where she is pointing out that pedophilia is running rampant in evangelical Protestant churches and not acknowledging this puts kids at risk. That is a fact.
    I don’t know why Letter Writer Guy is steamed over that.

    And what is wrong with the screen grab with the label Ex. 4? The guy didn’t offer up proof where Dee and Deb had been wrong, as he was claiming.

    I finished scrolling down through the Exhibits pictured, and Letter Writing Guy, I am not seeing what the problem is.

    I suspect the problem is you just get bent out of shape when anyone criticizes any church or pastor that you support, even when that criticism has been published on sites such as The Sun, Daily Mail, and other sources.

    You don’t like people pointing out the flaws with your friends or churches you like.


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    The letter appears to have been printed with a color printer. If it was a laser printer, it probably has a digital fingerprint (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printer_steganography). The printer should be traceable by law enforcement.


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    Daisy wrote:

    I finished scrolling down through the Exhibits pictured, and Letter Writing Guy, I am not seeing what the problem is.

    His exhibits undermine the points he is trying to make. It would be nice to know where he was educated.


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    From Dee’s post
    “Instead, I learned an important lesson. I have wonderful, kind and thoughtful pastors in a denomination that responded appropriately to your letter.”

    Thankfully you have found your associates to be people of integrity, too bad it takes this type of incident to reveal it. This guy is one nasty piece of work and he is the antithesis of “the Christian” he passes himself off as, providing a false witness is only the start.

    I also noted from the linked documents that he has impugned others also, Todd being one, I’ll provide my meager prayer for protection of those concerned. Life is already difficult, why are there people who relish making it worse.


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    I had no doubts your church and denomination would stand by you. I am still very astonished by how far this person went. I also gave a brief summary of what happened to my pastor and she said she would be praying for you. She said it’s terrible that Christians have to deal with things like child abuse in the church, but very necessary. And I will be praying for your stepfather.

    I did have a thought that this could have been a collaborative effort, done by more than one person.


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    He actually included the facilities manager? You gotta think it’s a big day for that guy!


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    That is pretty disturbing! I’m glad you had a better response than you expected.

    Although I’m not surprised. You would have to be pretty delusional to think this letter would convince anyone without a personal stake in these people like chantry (which, again, the guy is legit on trial! That’s the least gossipy/slandery/whatevery post ever.


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    Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    It would be nice to know where he was educated.

    I’ve sometimes quipped that some folks needed an education to become that dumb. By the same token I wonder how much help this guy had in becoming so noxious or if he accomplished it totally on his own.


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    Mae wrote:

    In any event, the ugliness he has displayed towards you is exactly why women run from Complementarianism. He doesn’t know you but he wants authority over you….sickening.

    Right? So creepy!

    This is what comes of people who yammer on about authority and women all day long. Beware.


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    Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    The letter appears to have been printed with a color printer. If it was a laser printer, it probably has a digital fingerprint (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printer_steganography). The printer should be traceable by law enforcement.

    Interesting.

    That is sort of how police caught the “B.T.K.” serial killer, they traced the print outs of his letters to cops to the printer he used in his church’s office.

    Oops, I suppose Letter Writer would not want me mentioning that a serial killer was a regular church attender because it might make “church look bad,” but this was already public information.


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    I’m glad to hear the Deebs are doing better. Will be praying for you and your families…


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    @ Ken F (aka Tweed):

    Glad you mentioned that. That is part of the irony, I saw. In his world, the exhibits ARE “proof” (That is one reason it’s so sick, eh?) It’s really a shock when they get outside their bubble.

    Note, he never mentions what the three he referenced actually did.


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    I was writing an interesting post (at least for me) on child sex abuse in the Amish community

    This will be interesting to me as well, since my former church used some pseudo-association with Anabapists as a defense against sexual abuse happening in their community. My research indicates it’s “a plague” in some communities. I look forward to reading your post.


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    @ Thersites:
    I have to agree with your first line. After all, I live in YRR ground zero.


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    In support of full disclosure.

    I made a few minor corrections to the post. Dee knows about them. Nothing about the meaning of the post has changed. All of the original text is still shown.


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    He sure went for shock and awe. Ya gotta wonder after all that research on your associations (that seriously creeped me out) if he mailed them all at once to sort of carpet bomb every aspect of your life in one raid.

    Buts it’s the miscalculation that really stands out. You nailed it about sending it to the medical center. What on earth did “nobody” expect to happen? That seems to show how out of touch he is. Using the address of a denomination was to give his screed credibility but did he not consider it might land him in trouble. And he used the postal system!

    You are blessed to have such a support system, a great church and colleagues.


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    YOU
    CAN’T
    MAKE
    THIS
    STUFF
    UP…
    WOW


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    Max wrote:

    There’s nothing magical about Dee’s ability to discern the ails of certain aspects of the New Calvinist movement. The Deebs couple an investigative prowess with simple observation abilities to report what is going on in dark corners of the organized church.

    And let’s not forget their ability to Follow The Money (and the common sense to do so).


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    Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    And let’s not forget their ability to Follow The Money (and the common sense to do so).

    Anointed common sense goes a long way in seeing through the smoke and mirrors of 21st century church.


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    Dear Nobody and Nobody’s fellow travelers:

    There’s a phrase to describe what Nobody has been sending around. It’s a “dead agent pack.” Its purpose is to damage or destroy the reputation of the person being targeted. And the phrase is not Christian. It comes from Scientology, because Scientology did and continues to “dead agent” people. (Current targets are anyone who is on Leah Remini’s program.)

    So there you are, Nobody, you’re acting just like David Miscavige, the leader of Scientology. You should be so very, very proud of yourself for sinking to those depths. *scowl*


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    Nobody did not do a very good job of supporting his/her case, IMO. When you blast out a letter that is as breathless as this one is and expect to be taken seriously by serious people, the Exhibits need to have more substance. This is ridiculous and is self-defeating. If I received a letter like this, I would try to get the writer some professional help, because there is something going on here that has nothing to do with TWW.


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    Dee, I pray that your dear father is well


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    Dee,

    Your (attempted) tormentor calls himself “Nobody”. That is a truthful description — he is a nobody. You should not worry about a nobody. In fact, you do not even need to ignore a nobody, because he is a nobody, a nothing. He is probably not worth the raw paper on which his birth certificate was written, perhaps less than $0.01 per sheet. A negative value, and a negligible entity. You and Deb should studiously ignore him.


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    I would suggest that Mr. Nobody read Walter Brueggeman’s “The Prophetic Imagination” and take it to heart. Maybe then he’ll understand the biblical imperative of speaking truth to power.


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    ___

    Targeted Malicious Religious Liberty Silencing: “A Current Vicious Demonstrated Disposition Towards Religious Censorship, Perhaps?”

    Q. An attempt to hurt people who raise legitimate questions about serious 501(c)3 non-profit church issues?

    hmmm…

    “This is true liberty, when free-born men,
         Having to advise the public, may speak free,
         Which he who can, and will, deserves high prais
         Who neither can, nor will, may hold his peace:
         What can be juster in a state than this?” (1)

    “…when complaints are freely heard, deeply considered and speedily reformed, then is the utmost bound of civil liberty attained that wise men look for.” (1)

    *

    Q. A case of defamation of character for the purpose of silencing religious opposition?

    huh?

    It ain’t over…

    Q. An extreme attempt at ‘persona non grata’ (Latin: person not appreciated or welcomed?; a blatant threat to take this monkey business to any church you seek to attend in future; to escalate this effort until the proper end is achieved?

    Could b.

    *

    Q. Is sarcastic humor in order at this ‘injunction’?

    ding! ding! ding! ding! ding! ding!

    The absolutely ‘worst’ anonymous virtual TWW performance to date: “Nasty Little Blogettes..?”
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8gc-dLnvWb4

    Blog detectives, it’s not too late … ‘Whip it good!’
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0LJ_yZh93oU

    Smooth Move Exlax?

    huh?

    —> Does anyone really ‘think’ that [authenticated] pastors who harbor pedophiles and [authenticated] (1) pastors that promote [authenticated] pastors that do the same are really totally going to succeed their silence or their silencing?

    (1) [authenticated] = positively verifiable proof

    *

    Sounding an Alarm?

    “The Neo-Cal movement church-takeover ploy isn’t something limited to a single church or denomination, but is spreading throughout Christendom. I fear to imagine what will happen next as Mohler, Dever and their merry band of YRR minions wreak havoc in our (SBC) church denomination. I sound off the warning to be on the lookout for these sneaky, deceptive, power-hungry pastors! …There are truly no winners when these guys slither into your church!” -Root 66

    *

    Notice: For many years TWW has been criticized for allowing anyone who follows the posted rules of comment courtesy, to post comments at their blog, i.e. practicing Christian, or some other. In a day when many blog or websites do not allow for the publishing of comments, let the reader take notice that it takes a whole lot for the TWW blog owners to refrain for posting a comment on their blog.

    *

    Refrain :

    I will lift up my eyes unto the hills, from where my help comes from. My help comes from the Lord, which made heaven and earth. He will not suffer my foot to be moved: he that keeps me slumbers not…

    **

    As always, you both are appreciated and ‘prayed’ for, your efforts con-sider-able…
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NJsa6-y4sDs

    ATB

    Sòpy
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iCioG6txmLM
    ___
    Ref: (1) (Excerpt(s) From: John Milton, “Areopagitica / A Speech for the Liberty of Unlicensed Printing to the Parliament of England.” )
    http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/608/pg608-images.epub?session_id=e0f6dfc60cd747a89a4fcac278885b4ed7b857ca

    😉


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    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    It comes from Scientology, because Scientology did and continues to “dead agent” people.

    We are watching Going Clear at this very moment. The difference between the tactics of Scientology and those of some “Christians” today is . . . indistinguishable. I’ve learned a lot from your comments about this.


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    If "nobody" really cared, they would put their name on it and they would not misrepresent where the letter is coming from…. period..


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    You guys were in the right all along, but it’s nice to have someone agree with you in today’s church climate. You guys deserve that support! The greatest evil I see in today’s church is the creation of an artificial barrier between believers that hurts true fellowship and reinforces the power of leadership. Some of our comnents may not be theologically sound, but I’d rather be wrong in the right spirit than right in the wrong spirit. But, I must admit that too often I’m wrong in the wrong spirit.

    On a less serious note, there may be more clues to Nobody’s real identity here:

    https://play.google.com/music/preview/Thbvvpfn6w2fnl7rvkgc77mt5de?lyrics=1&utm_source=google&utm_medium=search&utm_campaign=lyrics&pcampaignid=kp-songlyrics


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    @ scott hendrixson:

    “Nobody” by Sylvia, I think her name was. My mom really liked that song.


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    I can’t believe the amount of research this person did. A bit scary, but so glad it worked out so well.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Even the church receptionist?

    This guy was thorough. Did he also send a copy to your dentist, UPS, guy and hair dresser??

    And your dog?
    (Now THAT would be memorable…)


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    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    It comes from Scientology, because Scientology did and continues to “dead agent” people.

    We are watching Going Clear at this very moment. The difference between the tactics of Scientology and those of some “Christians” today is . . . indistinguishable. I’ve learned a lot from your comments about this.

    When your church’s antics can be described as “Just Like Scientology, Except CHRISTIAN!”, that is NOT a good sign.


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    Lydia wrote:

    That seems to show how out of touch he is.

    True. For some folks in small, closed worlds, this is, unfortunately, how they operate. Intimidation, inuendo, threats – all anonymously. Sneaking around to subversively destroy someone’s reputation, black list or black ball them, as if this is the Cold War, and there is an SS or some such to socially take someone out.

    TWW, the letter writer does not seem to understand, operates in openness regarding public figures and the public news (including in the courts) about those people. With TWW discourse, connections or disconnects become evident with theology and practice, again PUBLIC theology and PUBLICLY known practices – some lawful and even some unlawful, as it turns out.

    For the out-of-touch small world people, welcome to the real world of social conscience, rule of law, common good, freedom of information, and most importantly: accountability.

    No matter how big the name of the public figure, and how “insignificant” the commenter, the comments count and stand and are at the very least heard (read). Voice. Thank God, and God bless TWW and the Deebs, and Dee’s supportive network that is standing tall with her and TWW.


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    Daisy wrote:

    His tactics and demeanor reminds me of what I’ve seen and read about the Church of Scientology.

    You, too?


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    When your church’s antics can be described as “Just Like Scientology, Except CHRISTIAN!”, that is NOT a good sign.

    There were several times I reached over and smacked my hubs on the arm as if to say, “Do you recognize that?” Like when the interviewees talked about not being allowed to read anything online that was critical or disparaging about Scientology. Or when people are labeled “suppressive persons” for being critical of Scientology, and other members are told to “disconnect” from them. Most people are more familiar with the term “shunning.” It’s exactly the same thing. It’s a lot to process.


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    Hmm…in regard to the strange choice to send the letter to the university and boards, the thought that occurged to me is that perhaps, within the bubble the ‘Nobody’ lives, the church has the local institutions in its pocket and can influence them in this manner. To me, it is the only thing that makes even a little sense of why he would send the letters to these groups.


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    This is such good news to hear, Dee! Nobody’s plans have been foiled!

    Now, my advice to Nobody: GET A LIFE!


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    Mr “Nobody”, do you have any evidence that Dr. Iain Campbell was NOT guilty of adultery with 7 other women? If yes please present them to us.

    Every single piece of evidence we seen so far says that Campbell is indeed guilty. Even his old church, who initially defended him, now agrees that Campbell is guilty due to overwhelming evidence and testimonies. All of this are all over the news, even secular non-believing new outlets. If so how can you call this a rumor? How can you call this gossiping?

    Do you even care if he is guilty? Or you are just defending him because you worship him?

    You also say we should shut up just because Campbell killed himself. You said that is the “Christian” thing to do. Nope that would be the wrong thing to do. That would be like asking the author of Kings to shut up about those terrible kings, because those terrible kings are already dead. Because these terrible cases must be made an example for all the see, so future generations will not repeat the same mistakes.

    Why do you worry about the “fame” of Campbell? He is dead and he now must face the judgement of Almighty God. Will his fame, good or bad, really affect Campbell’s eternal destiny? Nope his life is done. And everything he did will be judged.

    Worry not about Campbell’s fame, which is meaningless. Instead worry about the future generation, other Christians, and their eternal well being. That’s why Campbell must be set as an example for others to NOT follow. How he is a pretender, a snake of Satan. And now he is being judged by God.

    Lastly “Nobody”, I hope you repent. Firstly you must repent of slandering Dee. Because Dee wasn’t spread rumors, but merely repeating what is already public knowledge on the news.
    Secondly you must repent for asking her church to remove her membership. Because you are jumping a lot of steps here. You must first prove that Dee is committing a very serious and clear sin, which you hasn’t. And even if she is (nope she isn’t!), her church must give her a lot of patience and talk to her many times about it. Christians don’t jump at every chance to excommunicate each other. Christians DO NOT rejoice in catching someone doing evil, but rejoice in the truth and repentance.

    You delight in excommunication. Even if the excommunication is legit, shouldn’t you instead moan with a heavy heart? Why are you so happy and so excited about excommunication? Where are your mercy and grace? For this alone you must repent and question your own faith, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment. (James 2:13)


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    I do hope that this was reported to the police.


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    JYJames wrote:

    True. For some folks in small, closed worlds, this is, unfortunately, how they operate. Intimidation, inuendo, threats – all anonymously. Sneaking around to subversively destroy someone’s reputation, black list or black ball them, as if this is the Cold War, and there is an SS or some such to socially take someone out.
    TWW, the letter writer does not seem to understand, operates in openness regarding public figures and the public news (including in the courts) about those people.

    I would imagine that many leaders in closed group would operate that way, since much of their ability to continue to abuse people in church depends on those people not talking about it openly and not confronting it. I do think this was a bit beyond that, though, because they seemed to really believe strangers would drop everything and take their word.

    There really is so much freedom in being able to openly talk about these issues. It’s something that many of these people will never experience. They are truly very impoverished. But it does take a capacity to be flexible, of which I don’t think many abusive leaders are capable. I do think many of them exhibit signs of disassociative mental illness, but all the more reason for the church to be vigilant. Believing that all believers are priests of equal standing does help.


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    “Nobody” was right about exactly one thing (the clue is in the name).

    I must revise my initial hypothesis. Whilst “nobody” attempted to comment in troll-english, the letter was written, ISTM, in a different style; the author (“authors” – ROFL! Like, we really believe this was a team effort!) went to some effort to compose his sentences before spoiling it all with comical anonymity.


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    Dee,

    I am glad that you have a good supportive Church home. If I had the power, I would give everyone that gift.

    In the comments about “Nobody”‘s tactics being the same as Scientology,I am reminded of a scene from Babylon 5. Two characters, both good guys, are talking. Bruce Boxlietner is talking about using the same tactics as the Shadows, who are the very bad guys. The other one is horrified and makes the point of “if you use the same tactics you are part of the evil”


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    Thersites wrote:

    I’ll provide my meager prayer for protection of those concerned.

    There are no “meager” prayers! “The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.” (James 5:16 NIV)

    Adding my prayers as well, for physical safety and spiritual peace for you and your family.
    “Protect us, Lord, as we stay awake; watch over us as we sleep, that awake, we may keep watch with Christ, and asleep, rest in his peace.” (from Night Prayer, Breviary)


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    Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    His exhibits undermine the points he is trying to make. It would be nice to know where he was educated.

    Possibilities include, but aren’t limited to, anywhere in the western political world where point-scoring is the primary objective of debate. This would include the politicised sub-cultures of evangelicalism.

    Being educated doesn’t make a person wise, as you know; it can just give a person more creative and entrenched ways of being dishonest. The fact that the author of this letter has chosen to remain anonymous means that, quite literally, nobody has actually made any claims (credible or otherwise) against Dee.

    The author of this letter is not to be taken seriously; he (just possibly she) has no honest opinions as far as we can in any way ascertain at the moment. But Deebs are to be taken seriously; very much so.


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    Challies takes takes a dig at discernment bloggers today: https://www.challies.com/


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    “I want you to know that I forgive you for what you tried to do.”

    One can forgive and still pursue legal action. If this person did it to Dee he will do it to others. Holding this person legally accountable is a mercy to others, and probably a mercy to the ananomous writer.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:

    Nick, I am so sorry. I note that nobody referenced as evidence one each reply from Dee to C, LP and me but nothing in a reply from Dee to you. That may be because what you write is so well written and all that there is no opportunity for substantive alternative reply from someone as kindly spoken as Dee. So a bit of advice from an accomplished verbal kicker of boundaries: you may have to get a bit more rough around the edges if you aspire to the levels of provocation that C, LP and I achieve.

    I understand if you may not want to do that, but I just wanted you to know that the way to get included by inference in some pitifully poorly argued diatribe by nobody may be to temporarily set aside your Cambridge eloquence and just spit something out sometimes. Just saying.


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    @ Ken F (aka Tweed):
    There are a lot of people who want to go back to the days of “gatekeepers” for news and information.


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    Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    If this person did it to Dee he will do it to others.

    Agreed. I'd take it a bit further…

    If this person did it to Dee, he has probably done it to others.

    Dude, you messed up BIG TIME this time!


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    1. I love how the letter begins –

    Ms. Parsons…is daily engaged in online attacks against the church

    . As if the church is some monolithic entity that walks in universal lockstep around the world.

    However, I think what the letter writer was actually implying was that by attacking “the church” Dee (et al) are really attacking Christ, per Acts 9:4 – “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?

    2. The writer stated that Dee

    has personally decided that there is an epidemic of abuse in the evangelical church

    (at least now “he” is specifying which branch of the church “he” is ‘defending’).

    Dee, you and everyone else here need to get a hobby. Quit looking for things that do not exist – stop creating problems where there are none. There is no abuse problems within evangelicalism, so stop pretending that there are – said no one, whose eyes were open, ever.


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    Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    Challies takes takes a dig at discernment bloggers

    “And then there are Christian discernment bloggers out there. They, too, are dependent upon headlines to tell their story and make you click. And some of them, too, tell half-lies in order to get your eyeballs on their ads. ”

    No ads here. 😉 But it looks like Challies has a sponsored ad on that very article. Haha. He’s making bank on all of our clicks.


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    I want to thank our wonderful TWW community for you expressions of love and support for Dee. It means more to us than you'll ever know.


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    This guy is DANGEROUS! He has spent a lot of effort to find out a lot about you and your husband, including where you worship, etc. That is stalking to an extreme. Please, please contact your local police department with the evidence, including the names and contact information for your pastor and other church members. He has committed a crime or has made preparations to commit one, and those preparations are a crime in some states. If the local police do not respond, please contact the local postal inspector and FBI office. He has invested too much in this for him to merely go away when his letters did not have the desired effect.


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    An Attorney wrote:

    Dee,
    Your (attempted) tormentor calls himself “Nobody”. That is a truthful description — he is a nobody. You should not worry about a nobody. In fact, you do not even need to ignore a nobody, because he is a nobody, a nothing. He is probably not worth the raw paper on which his birth certificate was written, perhaps less than $0.01 per sheet. A negative value, and a negligible entity. You and Deb should studiously ignore him.

    This was a wrong assessment. I tossed a bit last night over my mistake. The more recent comment post should be acted upon.


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    @ An Attorney:
    +1


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    I can’t be the only one to speculate who this might be, right? FRANKly, there are a lot of TURKeys out there.


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    @ An Attorney:

    Well, he has certainly committed an act of aggression, and personally I would be very concerned at this point.


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    My two cents, please do let the police know of this. Anyone who would do what *nobody* did is not in their right mind.


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    Let me say here that Dee’s church and denom handled this problem well. You all remember the way that I described the handling of a school situation by a local LCMS church and its denomination. This can and does happen that churches and denominational HQ handle things well sometimes? often?.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    anonymity

    Nobody missed the perfect chance to make his mark in the New Calvinist community. By defending his icons, he could have risen to hero status as a Somebody and allowed to hob-nob with the reformed big boys.

    P.S. I prefer to remain as “Max” in the blogosphere. I’m famous enough in my area without revealing my complete identity. Folks call me strange for swimming upstream against the tide of modern movements, but I just feel more comfortable fighting the current.

    Deebs, thank you for standing your ground. Good always prevails, even though it might take a while.


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    bunny wrote:

    Anyone who would do what *nobody* did is not in their right mind.

    Agreed. Until I read Nobody’s letter, I was feeling that this guy is just a harmless New Calvinist groupie. His words point to a deeper problem typical of cult behavior.


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    Jesus said that Christians would be known for the love they have for one another. One question I have in the midst of this kind of trouble is “Where is the love?” (located).

    In this case, it is clearly being demonstrated by Dee, Deb, their support structure, their churches, pastors, et. al.

    It is clearly NOT being demonstrated by “Mr. Nobody” & company.

    “Nobody” and people who think like he does are fond of saying that “the most loving thing you can do for someone is to tell them they are going to hell. (or expose their sin)” His actions spring forth out of that idea, which is ingrained in their theological system. Out of the heart the mouth speaks.

    They do not know that they have turned the word “love” on it’s head. The evidence for that is in the actions that come about as a result. This letter serves as a primed example of what happens when sin-filled men use religion as a cover for their vices.

    The church (real, not corporate) needs to stand unified against this kind of hate. It is my sincere desire that this man (or these men / group) are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. After all, “it’s the most loving thing we can do” for him.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    When you blast out a letter that is as breathless as this one is and expect to be taken seriously by serious people, the Exhibits need to have more substance. This is ridiculous and is self-defeating.

    Yes. I was sort of surprised to see ‘exhibits’ in the letter, and then to see what they were? Wow. To think that would have swayed anyone who wasn’t already heated about this is ludicrous.
    An Attorney wrote:

    You and Deb should studiously ignore him.

    This was a wrong assessment.

    Interesting. I’ve been thinking about this. Stalking can be dangerous and it’s difficult to address. I don’t know what qualifies, but crazy letters are not a good thing. I would be more frightened if someone had showed up in person, but this is a level before that. I absolutely agree that reporting to the authorities should be done. As for ignoring beyond that? Sometimes that is the only way to get people to go away and for things to die down. Sometimes it might inflame things. I think I mentioned a story about someone who blocked a stalker and then that person showed up and he didn’t know, because he had blocked her texts. My gut says not responding but also reporting to the police is generally the way to go in personal cases but I’ve never had anything quite like this happen, so I would Consult with the experts for advice.

    Just know, praying this is a huff and puff kind of thing, not a truly dangerous person.


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    Over the last year or two, I have been following this blog, and have read back through almost all the posts. If one looks at the early years of this blog, and does a little googling, it’s easy to see that “the Deebs” are NOT engaging in smears, slander, or false judgment. So much of what is presented as fact is externally verifiable that it’s easy to believe the parts that are not.

    Furthermore, the opinions and judgment that ARE given are clearly spoken from hearts of love and grace for all involved.

    Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. This is a well-known fact of human psychology. The abusers that are called out by the Deebs are power-corrupted evil-doers who should not be defended as leaders in the Chuck of Jesus.

    This letter-writer needs to be on his knees seeking God’s guidance in seeing Truth more clearly than he does now.


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    @ An Attorney:
    Thank you for your warning. You make logical points on the matter. I forgive this man but I do not trust him. I believe that he is involved in a small group that supports Tom Chantry

    I probably should report this to the authorities.


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    @ Max:
    Good assessment.


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    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    I was writing an interesting post (at least for me) on child sex abuse in the Amish community

    This will be interesting to me as well, since my former church used some pseudo-association with Anabapists as a defense against sexual abuse happening in their community. My research indicates it’s “a plague” in some communities. I look forward to reading your post.

    I am so interested in this too. Last year I wrote about as much as I could find on abuse in the Amish community as my online course professor had required us to write about it in one of our discussions. It was about how the community forgave the murderer rapist that broke into an Amish school a while back, Lansing I believe? Interestingly, she had sounded rather in praise of them because she had spent some time with one community the summer before. And praise of how they forgave. I bravely wrote about what I was finding through research. Most likely, the community she visited put on a nice front. I found that the Amish are forced to forgive and that they are not allowed an education past the 8th grade. What is there to praise about that? Anyway, ‘looking very forward to the post.


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    @ Ken F (aka Tweed):
    Thank you. I am considering doing so. In the meantime, I wonder how Tim Challies feels about bloggers who purposely do not make money. I know his income is based on blogging. The Deebs blog purely out of concern and want nothing to do with the monetary aspect.


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Ken F (aka Tweed):
    There are a lot of people who want to go back to the days of “gatekeepers” for news and information.

    Reichsminister Goebbels would be in full agreement.


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    ishy wrote:

    I do think this was a bit beyond that, though, because they seemed to really believe strangers would drop everything and take their word.

    Which shows a disordered mind, I would think.


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    @ Juulie Downs:

    Thanks so much for your affirmation. As our readers know, Dee and I are sticklers about documentation. If there's anything we are obsessive about, it's about providing links to all of our sources.

    We even provide links to the photos we use. 🙂 Who else does that???


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    @ Deb:
    Did you know that *nobody* violated federal postal laws? There are a number of other legal problems with the extent of his mailings to people in the community. If I were him, I would be sweating it just a little bit.

    The group surrounding Tom Chantry is quite small and very insulated. I would not be surprised if those people know who did this. If they do, the are morally obligated to deal with this.


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    Here’s a classic essay in the F&SF community:

    “The Last Straw” from several years ago, where fantasy author Mercedes Lackey details encounters with stalker fanboys and worse. She completely ended any appearances and attendance at cons after this.

    https://www.cs.csustan.edu/~mthomas/abml/laststraw.html


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    Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    Challies takes takes a dig at discernment bloggers today: https://www.challies.com/

    Ah, Interesting.

    And then there are Christian discernment bloggers out there. They, too, are dependent upon headlines to tell their story and make you click. And some of them, too, tell half-lies in order to get your eyeballs on their ads. They, too, make their money whether you read or skim.

    Prove it, Tim. All of it. Funny how those ‘half lies’ seem to always turn out to be true things. And the deflections turn out to be the lies.


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    The letter reads like the writing of one who is not mentally well. This is not a normal pain in the derriere abusive church leader or enabler—they may be wrong headed, even hateful sometimes, but at least they generally have enough awareness to realize that such a course of action as was taken here is not rational. I agree with An Attorney, this is not a safe person, get in touch with the police.


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    I just woke up with a tune going through my head. Then I realized the song begins:
    “I don’t want to hurt nobody
    Don’t want to make nobody cry
    I don’t want to do wrong, I don’t want to do wrong
    I don’t want to tell no lies
    I’m lovin’ you, lovin’ you against my will
    Lovin’ you, lovin’ you against my will”
    Gary Allan – Lovin’ You Against My Will Lyrics by Jaimie O’Hara


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    @ Dave A A:
    I’m still singing ‘your nobody called today’, so thanks to whoever upthread who mentioned THAT.

    On topic, I occasionally get up a head of steam about something and consider writing an angry letter, but that impulse rarely lasts long enough to actually do it.


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    Patti wrote:

    I bravely wrote about what I was finding through research.

    You probably came across a lot of the same material that I did. It’s sickening. No doubt there are many qualities about the Amish and Mennonites to admire, but their concept of forgiveness is not always one of them. Once the community has handled the matter “in house,” the molested victim is expected to forgive or face disciplinary action.

    Did you find the article by Nadya Labi entitled The Gentle People? It’s one of the worst accounts I read. And, a few years ago, a group of Mennonites helped organize their own chapter of SNAP.


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    Dee has given me permission to share the name of one of the individuals who received this ridiculous letter.

    It was [drumroll please…]

    Wade Burleson

    We contacted Wade to see whether he got the letter. He confirmed that he did; however, it promptly went into the circular file since it was sent anonymously.


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    dee wrote:

    @ An Attorney:
    Thank you for your warning. You make logical points on the matter. I forgive this man but I do not trust him. I believe that he is involved in a small group that supports Tom Chantry
    I probably should report this to the authorities.

    @ dee:

    Nobody is also attempting to smear your reputation with lies in written form. He/she should be prosecuted under the law and sure for defamation.

    BTW – “Nobody” is a false moniker for this person who, by their actions, desires to be a “Somebody” in true self-righteous Pharacitical fashion.


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    Lea wrote:

    My gut says not responding but also reporting to the police is generally the way to go in personal cases but I’ve never had anything quite like this happen, so I would Consult with the experts for advice.

    +1, FWIW.


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    I'd like to see TWW deal with this legally because if you don't, there will be another attack. You are just too close to the truth for their comfort. Too powerful a voice. Setup a goFundme. I will contribute!


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    dee wrote:

    @ Ken F (aka Tweed):
    Thank you. I am considering doing so. In the meantime, I wonder how Tim Challies feels about bloggers who purposely do not make money. I know his income is based on blogging. The Deebs blog purely out of concern and want nothing to do with the monetary aspect.

    . . . as he blogs away pushing books and seminars and runs adds on his blog for a living, yet he is somehow better than bloggers who expose evil in the Church for free.

    What am I missing here?


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    Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    His exhibits undermine the points he is trying to make. It would be nice to know where he was educated.

    The inclusion of exhibits indicates his intent – to be a pseudo legal brief or forensic debate. To this end, I agree with Nick when he wrote –

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Possibilities include, but aren’t limited to, anywhere in the western political world where point-scoring is the primary objective of debate. This would include the politicised sub-cultures of evangelicalism

    It seems highly likely that “he” associates in the same circles, or thinks he does, or wants to, as Doug Wilson. Perhaps “he” is a young NSA graduate or follower of Tom Chantry. I am not sure of the Campbell connection except that Wilson and his followers are die hard Scotophiles, so Campbell is innocent by the virtue of his nationality.


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    Law Prof wrote:

    The letter reads like the writing of one who is not mentally well. This is not a normal pain in the derriere abusive church leader or enabler—they may be wrong headed, even hateful sometimes, but at least they generally have enough awareness to realize that such a course of action as was taken here is not rational. I agree with An Attorney, this is not a safe person, get in touch with the police.

    My take of him too. He’s put way too much effort in this to be an ordinary crank. Speaking to the police, over the matter, seems prudent.


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    @ An Attorney:
    Yeah I agree. Since this did not work and it PUBLICLY did not work, a person like this could escalate. This does not sound like someone who “moves on” easily.


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    @ BeenThereDoneThat:
    But, but, it’s godly when Challies blogs…for profit.

    Actually, I think he became a paid pastor/ elder at some point after he got out of web platforms. I know he left Ingrid’s site high and dry years ago.


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    An Attorney wrote:

    This guy is DANGEROUS! He has spent a lot of effort to find out a lot about you and your husband, including where you worship, etc. That is stalking to an extreme. Please, please contact your local police department with the evidence, including the names and contact information for your pastor and other church members. He has committed a crime or has made preparations to commit one, and those preparations are a crime in some states. If the local police do not respond, please contact the local postal inspector and FBI office. He has invested too much in this for him to merely go away when his letters did not have the desired effect.

    Sound advice. The man is obsessed with Dee.


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    The tone, nature, and clumsy intent of the letter speaks for itself.

    Had I received this letter, I would have thought the person was a bit unhinged, and I, too, would have been concerned for your safety. In fact, I am.

    I think that it may be worth your taking this letter to a lawyer to discuss your options, and perhaps discussing it with the local police.

    I don’t recommend this for the purpose of suing this guy for slander, but I do think that the local police need to be aware and that you ought to consider making sure that you have adequate security arrangements.


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    Wow! This reminds me of all the nasty-grams going back and forth about me when you were covering my story of spiritual abuse at HBC.


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    Law Prof wrote:

    The letter reads like the writing of one who is not mentally well.

    That’s what I wondered as well. It’s a good thing the Deebs carry pea shooters.


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    Bridget wrote:

    . . . as he blogs away pushing books and seminars and runs adds on his blog for a living, yet he is somehow better than bloggers who expose evil in the Church for free.
    What am I missing here?

    They’re nearly all female and not in “submission to his loving authority” (to quote Joe Carter).


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    ishy wrote:

    They’re nearly all female and not in “submission to his loving authority” (to quote Joe Carter).

    I do wonder how much being female affects the reactions from this type of person. It seems like it can’t not, but I don’t know how to do a proper trial. Are the male watch blogger types of similar stature getting the same results? Are there any male watch blogger types with comparable reach?


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    dee wrote:

    The group surrounding Tom Chantry is quite small and very insulated. I would not be surprised if those people know who did this. If they do, the are morally obligated to deal with this.

    After they stop giving Nobody high-five after high-five?


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    @ Lea:
    I doubt it. Frankly I was a bit surprised he targeted the husband’s livelihood. He must really be counting on staying anonymous.


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    Burwell wrote:

    I am not sure of the Campbell connection except that Wilson and his followers are die hard Scotophiles, so Campbell is innocent by the virtue of his nationality.

    An alternate hypothesis is that Nobody is an Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America (ARBCA) Baptist. Campbell would be popular among them, I imagine. ARBCA is, in my own experience, very enthusiastic and tenacious about defending what it believes and is also very cloistered. It is also very tiny. At least some ARBCA churches are also aligned with the SBC. Chantry was an ARBCA pastor, IIRC. ARBCA and Founders are 1689er Baptists. Dever is a 1689er. That may be the connection to Mohler’s joke about Mahaney.


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    Lea wrote:

    Are the male watch blogger types of similar stature getting the same results? Are there any male watch blogger types with comparable reach?

    That’s a good point. I do think Nate Sparks get a good amount of lashback, but I think Nate’s additional focus on politics might have something to do with that.

    I also think that the discernment bloggers in general are getting quite a bit more discussion than some of the religious news sites like RNS, even though RNS has done some pretty strong articles against the New Cals. And they see discernment bloggers as much easier targets to dismantle.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Burwell wrote:
    I am not sure of the Campbell connection except that Wilson and his followers are die hard Scotophiles, so Campbell is innocent by the virtue of his nationality.
    //
    An alternate hypothesis is that Nobody is an Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America (ARBCA) Baptist.

    I actually think it’s neither, but the subject of one of the exhibits, perhaps with the aid of one of his buddies. The writing style and grammar matches that individual.


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    Deb wrote:

    Dee has given me permission to share the name of one of the individuals who received this ridiculous letter.

    It was [drumroll please…]

    Wade Burleson

    We contacted Wade to see whether he got the letter. He confirmed that he did; however, it promptly went into the circular file since it was sent anonymously.

    I hate hearing this. That’s evidence and Wade is blog pastor.


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    ishy wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:
    An alternate hypothesis is that Nobody is an Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America (ARBCA) Baptist.
    //
    I actually think it’s neither, but the subject of one of the exhibits, perhaps with the aid of one of his buddies. The writing style and grammar matches that individual.

    I will correct that, because that would be an ARBCA member, though it’s someone who has the most to lose.


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    Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    His exhibits undermine the points he is trying to make.

    I completely agree with this, it may be because I’ve not long finished my Masters dissertation, but I was reading thinking, ‘he makes his claim & here’s his proof…nope, doesn’t hold up’, over & over. I would not have submitted this for marking as his case is frankly mediocre based on his examples alone, let alone any other knowledge. Fail fail fail McFail.

    But the intent is creepy, wrong & stalky so please get the authorities involved & put the pugs ( & Debs’ equivalent) on high alert. Tulip, I’m looking at you here.


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    ishy wrote:

    I do think Nate Sparks get a good amount of lashback, but I think Nate’s additional focus on politics might have something to do with that.

    Yes. That would be a confounding factor, as politics draws a lot of heat and emotion. I think it has been very wise of this site to limit their scope.


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    Max wrote:

    bunny wrote:
    Anyone who would do what *nobody* did is not in their right mind.
    Agreed. Until I read Nobody’s letter, I was feeling that this guy is just a harmless New Calvinist groupie. His words point to a deeper problem typical of cult behavior.

    Or, he’s devolved to stalker behavior.


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    Wade Burleson is a recipient? And he threw away his copy because it was anonymous? Reminds me of Agatha Christie’s The Moving Finger.

    That begs the question… was the poison pen honest in making the list of 32 cc: copies, or did he lie about that as well, and there were more than 32? (I mean, was Wade’s name on the redacted CC list?)

    I would not say the next part if the letter writer were not anonymous, isn’t that ironic? Because it could be construed as slanderous (libelous?) speculation. But because I am not besmirching someone’s real-life name and reputation, I can engage in speculation. If that is not true, please delete this comment!

    It has been nagging at me that the three cases highlighted by the poison pen all involved sexual as well as spiritual abuse. There is a certain “touch not my anointed” tone to the diatribe, an outrage by someone invested in the idea of authority who is appealing to “other” authorities. (I put “other” in scare quotes because it appears he perceives his own authority as equal to theirs?)

    I am honestly concerned for the people in the poison pen’s circle, especially the children.

    I have often wondered how “godly” abusers can live with themselves. Hearing some of the self-justifications reported here and at other sites makes it a little more understandable.

    – Victim-blaming (you hear it in their sermons sometimes: Bathsheba should not have brazenly been bathing on her roof; David’s daughter should not have gone in alone to her brother – yeah, like that kind of precaution worked in the Duggars’ case).

    – “God makes all things work for good for those that believe in him” and “What man meant for evil, God meant for good.” (I may be doing something I know inside is wrong, but God’s gonna fix it, so I don’t need to worry all that much about it.)

    – Paul’s “Miserable man that I am!” (See? Even Paul did the things he didn’t want to do. So I must be okay.)

    – David’s “Man after God’s own heart” (See? David was a murderer and adulterer, but is that what labels him? No! Even with all he did, he is known as a man after God’s own heart. So I must be okay!)

    Seriously, if this guy’s identity ever comes to light, someone needs to do an investigation of the vulnerable people in his life, who might now be or have been in his power.


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    @ Gram3:

    This is all new to me. Lots and lots to investigate… 😉


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    @ refugee:
    (I meant something like “an investigation on behalf of” or “investigation in the interest of protecting” but worded it badly. Sorry.)


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    @ ishy:

    Right, I speculated that on Twitter the other day myself.


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Lea:
    I doubt it. Frankly I was a bit surprised he targeted the husband’s livelihood. He must really be counting on staying anonymous.

    Someone I knew in the fanfic world was targeted by an unbalanced sort who went in for all kinds of harassment. It was a long time ago, but I still remember being shocked that the attacker arranged for the target’s online utility payments to be cancelled, with an eye to getting their power shut off, in a southern state, in the hot summer months.

    Apparently there are ways of getting this kind of hacking done even if one is not computer savvy him- or herself.

    Be careful out there.


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    @ refugee:
    I left one out. Bumper-sticker theology. “I’m not perfect, I’m just forgiven!”


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    refugee wrote:

    It has been nagging at me that the three cases highlighted by the poison pen all involved sexual as well as spiritual abuse. There is a certain “touch not my anointed” tone to the diatribe, an outrage by someone invested in the idea of authority who is appealing to “other” authorities. (I put “other” in scare quotes because it appears he perceives his own authority as equal to theirs?)
    I am honestly concerned for the people in the poison pen’s circle, especially the children.

    This is one reason why I question who it is. It’s almost as if they want that kind of thing to be permissible in the church. But we’ve seen so many scandals now that it seems to be fairly pervasive in that culture, because women and children are considered property and not free and equal people.


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    ishy wrote:

    that would be an ARBCA member

    It fits the behavior I’ve observed from ARBCA people in a close encounter (We’re only doing this to save your soul.) I think it is because the group is so dead certain they are right. What we experienced at our most recent former church (not an ARBCA church) is a weak form of this mindset.


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    Getting law enforcement involved is probably sound advice. It is clear that “Nobody” isn’t living in the same reality as the rest of us! I wish abuses weren’t happening in the church, but to deny that they are happening and to lash out at those exposing the evil deeds defies logic and common sense…it is clearly NOT Christ-like!

    Exposing evil is necessary and difficult, and Jesus spoke of this very thing in John 3:20-21: “For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.” (Quoted in ESV–in case there are any YRR Neo-Cals reading this! 😉 )

    Hang in there, and keep shedding light in the darkness!


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    Prayers and hugs from the Winston-Salem area, Dee!


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    refugee wrote:

    Someone I knew in the fanfic world was targeted by an unbalanced sort who went in for all kinds of harassment.

    I was the victim of that kind of harassment. The reason he decided to go after me and a friend of mine is that his girlfriend at the time did a TMI infodump about their relationship on the forum I ran. It put him in a pretty bad light. I really didn’t even have anything to do with it, except for knowing too much. I moderated her post fairly quickly, so only a couple of people read it. He tried to hack our site, my email, and my home network, and lied to mutual friends about me. They wouldn’t believe me because he came across as “such a good guy”. It was months before he gave up. His anger was clearly misdirected from his girlfriend to me, but he stalked me for months after they broke up.

    I do wish we had better treatment of mental illness…


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    @ Gram3:

    If so, then the letter prob came from the Carisle, Pa area.


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    refugee wrote:

    was the poison pen honest in making the list of 32 cc: copies, or did he lie about that as well … (I mean, was Wade’s name on the redacted CC list?)

    Yep. Everyone who might know Dee, Deb, and Dee’s husband seemed to get a letter.

    Dee, Deb, and I didn’t. Heck I wasn’t even mentioned. I guess it was too much trouble to track down a real name for me. 🙂

    Yes, Wade was on the CC list.


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    ishy wrote:

    This is one reason why I question who it is. It’s almost as if they want that kind of thing to be permissible in the church. But we’ve seen so many scandals now that it seems to be fairly pervasive in that culture, because women and children are considered property and not free and equal people.

    I saw a treatment the other day of a terrible Piper tweet (because…of course) regarding rape that makes a lot sense…although he came at it from a slightly different angle.

    He said that to a certain segment, ““seduction” is violence just like rape, women (including children) seduce, If a man and a woman have consensual sex – it is her fault…His sin is rape. Her’s is “seduction.” So, if he doesn’t rape her, then it has to have been because she “seduced” him, right? “Same sin, different manifestation.”
    http://fiddlrts.blogspot.com/2015/04/john-piper-steps-in-it-on-rape-and-sex.html


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    @ Lea:
    I should say the property thing, the authority thing, and the ‘seduction’ thing all work in concert to create an insanely messed up series of thinking about sex and abuse.

    Also, I’ve gone through a lot of articles at this guys site and they are very enlightening.


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    Deb wrote:

    @ Gram3:

    This is all new to me. Lots and lots to investigate…

    As with you and Dee, I did not go looking for an ARBCA church, and an ARBCA church did not go looking for me, but circumstances brought us close enough to be very uncomfortable for both of us. I could tell an extremely funny story about that pastor, but some people who probably want to know who I am would know who I am. 🙂


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    Lea wrote:

    He said that to a certain segment, ““seduction” is violence just like rape, women (including children) seduce, If a man and a woman have consensual sex – it is her fault…His sin is rape. Her’s is “seduction.” So, if he doesn’t rape her, then it has to have been because she “seduced” him, right? “Same sin, different manifestation.”
    http://fiddlrts.blogspot.com/2015/04/john-piper-steps-in-it-on-rape-and-sex.html

    It’s no different than the old victim blaming tactic of “Did you see what she was wearing? She was ASKING for it!”

    Do I believe a woman can rape a man? Yes. There are power differentials where women can do so. But after a lifetime of sexual harassment, I can say with absolute fact that there are many men in this world who are completely delusional in their belief that all women want them.


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    Kin wrote:

    @ Gram3:

    If so, then the letter prob came from the Carisle, Pa area.

    Banner of Truth?


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    Daisy I’m dying over here thanks for making me laugh lol. I got some pug stickers Daisy wrote:

    From Dee’s Original Post:

    This letter was sent to the leadership in my current church, other members of my church including the kind gentleman who is the facilities manager, the receptionist, the choir director, as well as denominational leaders, the chancellor of a well known local university medical center, the chiefs of certain medical divisions, the president of a related denomination’s seminary and a cardiology practice which no longer exists. It was also sent to all of the members of a community board on which my husband and I sit.

    Even the church receptionist?

    This guy was thorough. Did he also send a copy to your dentist, UPS, guy and hair dresser??

    OP:

    This gentleman said it was *bizarre* and my husband immediately became concerned for my welfare.

    Would now be a bad time for me to mail you a hand-written letter in crayon with Pug stickers all over the envelope?

    OP:

    To top it off, my elderly stepfather contracted pneumonia and I had to call an ambulance early this morning. He is now in the hospital-

    I’m sorry to hear that; I hope his health improves soon.


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    Q: Is Tom Chantry a likely suspect? (for the letter writer) Isn’t he out on bail? (access to the required resources) Isn’t he the common denominator in the letter? Just curious. If not, why not?


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    Daisy
    I would love the crayon letter with the pug stickers so long as there were no slashes through the faces of pugs.ROFL (Tulip says she is not amused.)


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    @ A.Tumbleweed:
    I am pretty convinced that this is coming from inside the Tom Chantry camp which appears to me to be incredibly small and very, very stern-hellfire and such. So, is ti possible? Of course. I am considering discussing this situation with the prosecutor in the case so they are aware.


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    GuyBehindtheCurtain wrote:

    Heck I wasn’t even mentioned. I guess it was too much trouble to track down a real name for me.

    My lawn guy, hairstylist, Trader Joes’ and Amazon Prime are terribly upset as well.


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    @ dee:
    New Calvinism is an aggressive, militant movement of young reformers. They have a zeal and passion for their cause, but it is a misplaced passion. Their leaders have convinced them that they have come into the world for such a time as this to restore the gospel to the church (gospel = Calvinism). Some of them undoubtedly get confused when their icons fail and will strike back at voices who continue to flag concerns about the movement. They’ve invested their lives to pursue aberrations of faith, but just haven’t come to grips with that yet. When the bubble finally breaks on New Calvinism, thousands of Nobodys will be left dispirited and disillusioned, posing a great mission field for the Gospel if the rest of the church would get its act together to reach them.


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    @ GuyBehindtheCurtain:

    BTW-this proves just how careful we have been with your identity.

    This is a good example of how we view confidentiality. For 9 years, we have been tight lipped about the real identity of the GBTC. He is actually a member of Taylor Swift’s girl squad. https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/3039192/taylor-swift-girl-squad-best-friends/


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    ishy wrote:

    It’s no different than the old victim blaming tactic of “Did you see what she was wearing? She was ASKING for it!”

    Oh sure, but the sequence of how we got there always seemed sort of murky to me. This article I found helpful.

    I also watched a Ted talk talking about rape in india that said it’s important to talk about ‘why’ we think rape is wrong. Because the wrong answers, lead to the wrong solution (like the modesty police). Easier to digest dealing with a different culture, somehow.


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    dee wrote:

    My lawn guy, hairstylist, Trader Joes’ and Amazon Prime are terribly upset as well.

    Whoa! Now that disturbs me – that Nobody knows the names and addresses of your lawn guy and hairstylist, and where you shop! He must be a local.

    To send a letter to Trader Joes’ is just sick and wrong! Why drag them into this? Haven’t been to TJ’s in years (don’t have them in my area) – do their workers still wear Hawaiian shirts?


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    @ dee:

    Oops, looks like Dee just let the cat out of the bag…


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    @ dee:

    Chantry was a contributor to Pyromaniacs until they shut down, wasn’t he?


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    dee wrote:

    I am pretty convinced that this is coming from inside the Tom Chantry camp which appears to me to be incredibly small and very, very stern-hellfire and such. So, is ti possible? Of course. I am considering discussing this situation with the prosecutor in the case so they are aware.

    A friend of mine who lurks suggested it could be one of their spouses, as well.

    I do think this does need to be investigated by police.


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    GuyBehindtheCurtain wrote:

    I guess it was too much trouble to track down a real name for me.

    I always assumed that was your real name.

    Nobody tells me anything.


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    ishy wrote:

    A friend of mine who lurks suggested it could be one of their spouses, as well.

    Hm. But why bring in those other guys? just for cover, maybe?
    Lydia wrote:

    Chantry was a contributor to Pyromaniacs until they shut down, wasn’t he?

    Remind me who all did. Iirc, chantry was a frequent commenter to pyro that got sort of upgraded to or almost to contributor? I know there was that one super creepy in hindsight article that got deleted. And FT was the guy from Arkansas, right? I’m trying to remember…


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    dee wrote:

    For 9 years, we have been tight lipped about the real identity of the GBTC.

    Is it Ben Collins?

    Ben Collins revealed as the Stig


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Nobody tells me anything.

    You know Nobody?!


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    Lea wrote:

    Oh sure, but the sequence of how we got there always seemed sort of murky to me. This article I found helpful.
    I also watched a Ted talk talking about rape in india that said it’s important to talk about ‘why’ we think rape is wrong. Because the wrong answers, lead to the wrong solution (like the modesty police). Easier to digest dealing with a different culture, somehow.

    I agree with you about discussing why it is wrong, but our culture teaches heavily that men are at the complete mercy of biology if they are tempted. Women are expected to control everything about themselves, but men can’t. And Christians have bought that hook, line, and sinker even though it comes out of secular culture. Probably because it’s easy, unlike learning to control yourself.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:

    Well, Ben had to do something after TG let him go…

    And before you ask, he’s probably not The American from the Grand Tour.


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    Lea wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    A friend of mine who lurks suggested it could be one of their spouses, as well.
    //
    Hm. But why bring in those other guys? just for cover, maybe?

    I dunno. My friend didn’t think the writing style matched the current suspect list. But it could be they just listened to their spouse rant about that very thing.

    I don’t think that’s who it is. The emphasis on exhibits about sexual sin tell me it’s someone who is guilty of that. No one in their right mind would think those scandals were good examples of how the Deebs were just being mean and out to get somebody.


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    dee wrote:

    @ An Attorney:
    Thank you for your warning. You make logical points on the matter. I forgive this man but I do not trust him. I believe that he is involved in a small group that supports Tom Chantry
    I probably should report this to the authorities.

    The amount of time and effort expended to get all of the names and addresses, to determine where you go to church, your husbands place of work, your community activities (boards, etc.), is astounding. It suggests a person who is not well mentally and spiritually, and who could continue down a path that could lead to violence. He believes you have harmed his hero and he is seeking revenge. Your response so far indicates that you have been advantaged by this and demonstrates that he has not accomplished his goal, so he will likely continue to escalate. A protective order might be appropriate as well. Contact me off line if you would like a reference to some Raleigh area attorneys.


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    Max wrote:

    dee wrote:
    My lawn guy, hairstylist, Trader Joes’ and Amazon Prime are terribly upset as well.
    Whoa! Now that disturbs me – that Nobody knows the names and addresses of your lawn guy and hairstylist, and where you shop! He must be a local.
    To send a letter to Trader Joes’ is just sick and wrong! Why drag them into this? Haven’t been to TJ’s in years (don’t have them in my area) – do their workers still wear Hawaiian shirts?

    I may be wrong, but I read the comment about the lawn guy, hairstylist, Trader Joe’s, etc. being upset as them being upset about being left out and not getting a letter. As in, too unimportant to get a poison-pen letter. Sort of grim humor.


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    ishy wrote:

    No one in their right mind would think those scandals were good examples of how the Deebs were just being mean and out to get somebody.

    Well, yes. The chantry one is the least gossipy accusation I have pretty much ever seen, considering the man is about to be on trial. Sheesh.


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    @ Max:
    They still do in my area. They have the best fresh peas!


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    Lea wrote:

    trial

    And not just civil trial, straight up, criminal trial.


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    refugee wrote:

    I read the comment about the lawn guy, hairstylist, Trader Joe’s, etc. being upset as them being upset about being left out and not getting a letter.

    Yes, I totally misread Dee’s comment in this regard. You are right. Guess my age kicked in for a few seconds.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:
    How much of the time Stig was on camera did you actually spend in the suit? Was it you walking around London, appearing in studio… etc. (foscarench) I was entirely method. I slept in that suit. I spent family christmases never revealing my identity. To anyone. Not even myself.


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    @ Max:
    My understanding is that Joel Osteen and Steven Furtick are a bit put out!


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    dee wrote:

    @ Nick Bulbeck:
    How much of the time Stig was on camera did you actually spend in the suit? Was it you walking around London, appearing in studio… etc. (foscarench) I was entirely method. I slept in that suit. I spent family christmases never revealing my identity. To anyone. Not even myself.

    Oh, now you’ve brought to mind one of my favorite moments in the M*A*S*H tv show. Colonel Flag is leaving, and he tells everyone to shut their eyes because no one ever sees him leave (“I am the Wind.”). If they don’t shut their eyes, he won’t leave. Everyone hurries to shut their eyes. There’s a big crash.
    “What happened?”
    “The Wind just broke his leg.”


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Kin wrote:

    @ Gram3:

    If so, then the letter prob came from the Carisle, Pa area.

    Banner of Truth?

    Just my hunch it’s someone in their circles, but could be totally off.

    https://www.facebook.com/TheBannerofTruth/

    That area is the stomping grounds of the good ole boys from that slice of chrisitanity. I was friends many moons ago with one pastor that was very tight with the Chantry clan, though he was not in PA. Those folks were zealously over-the-top when it came to protecting their name and organization.


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    ishy wrote:

    I agree with you about discussing why it is wrong, but our culture teaches heavily that men are at the complete mercy of biology if they are tempted. Women are expected to control everything about themselves, but men can’t. And Christians have bought that hook, line, and sinker even though it comes out of secular culture. Probably because it’s easy, unlike learning to control yourself.

    One of the old theories as to why that is-why women buy into the claim that men cannot control themselves, is that this allows women to go ahead and indulge in forbidden sexual activity (oh mercy me I must have let him go too far-innocently of course) and then blame it on the men while at the same time the men are excused since they have the can’t help its built into their biology. And that is/was/used to be one of the secular psych theories. It was said to be a way in which people in a sexually repressive society could go ahead and be, well, less repressed and still feel guilt free. The idea was that once a society became less repressive then everybody could just go ahead and be, well, non-repressed and free at last without need for excuses and weird theories.

    I can see where this might play well in certain circles.


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    @ Lea:
    Dan somebody, Turk, Phil (before he quit but evidently did not quit social media) and Chantry. I wasn’t following it much after 2008 but read stuff in passing on other blogs where it was mentioned.

    That blog is a perfect example of what censoring leads to. Nada. They became their own audience. They did the whole thought police shitck well. It was sort of a joke in the blogging world as the “Reformed insulter place”. Like the Luther insulter which is what they sounded like. A lot like Doug Wilson, too. Need a good insult or verbal spanking? Go disagree with anything at Pyro. They chewed you up and spit you out. Also home of the phrases such as “blogging divas” and the “monstrous regiment of women bloggers”. Women bloggers really wore them out. Hee hee.


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    @ kin:
    One of the most ridiculous accusations in the letter was that TWW posted pics of Chantrys “elderly” parents, family, etc. They had posted all these pics themselves! They were still up when arrested. Chantrys dad, Walter, was like some sort of guru to a small ultra Reformed group. And following the timeline, it’s pretty obvious dad knew. I kept seeing the name on Neo Cal blogs when I was researching the movement, Didn’t they sell books?


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    okrapod wrote:

    One of the old theories as to why that is-why women buy into the claim that men cannot control themselves, is that this allows women to go ahead and indulge in forbidden sexual activity (oh mercy me I must have let him go too far-innocently of course) and then blame it on the men while at the same time the men are excused since they have the can’t help its built into their biology. And that is/was/used to be one of the secular psych theories. It was said to be a way in which people in a sexually repressive society could go ahead and be, well, less repressed and still feel guilt free.

    Interesting. I can see that. But it’s also seems like a convenient “Get Out of Jail Free” card with a male judge when it comes to rape. Though it often seems like many of the people around me use blame as an excuse for everything they do.


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    ishy wrote:

    Interesting. I can see that. But it’s also seems like a convenient “Get Out of Jail Free” card with a male judge when it comes to rape.

    Yes, I have deeply mixed feelings about it. Women are pretty well encouraged not to be sexually..I don’t want to say aggressive because that has violent overtones, but maybe forward? At least in youth. There is still this good girl/bad girl dichotomy there. So for a man to be the forward one here so she is still checking the good girl box makes some sense. I think if you recognize true consent as the most important thing (with adults) it isn’t so harmful. [It gets more murky when you throw in this idea of persuasion as close to rape which I have seen articulated.] And obviously anything having to do with children is out of this.

    But I am speaking more in regular society. In a repressive society? Yeesh. I just read that article on the amish and I am pretty shaky about that.


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    kin wrote:

    I was friends many moons ago with one pastor that was very tight with the Chantry clan, though he was not in PA.

    Banner of Truth was really big among the Baptist YRR True Believers before Piper became the face of the movement. I first ran into the BoT neo-Puritan True Believers in P&R circles back in the 70’s. So I was a little discombobulated to discover them popping up in Baptist circles in the early 2000’s. It would not surprise me that someone coming from a Banner of Truth or ARBCA environment could react in such an unhinged manner about something that touches a core issue. I certainly come off the hinges when somebody touches my core issues.


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    This notion of how women are responsible for “seducing” men, and how popular it is in patriarchic circles, more than any other single factor, is what convinces me that patriarchy is not built on an honest or plain reading of scribsher at all, but on the unfettered fleshly cravings of certain men. Bearing in mind that “fleshly desires” is not synonymous with “sexual desires” but with any and all desires that have to do with short-term gratification with the things of this world and this physical life.

    If any given woman is always, everywhere and forever, subordinate to any given man because of the God-given restrictions of her gender; and any given man is always, everywhere and forever, created to lead, rule, and bear authority – especially relative to women – there are certain consequences to this. One of them is that, in any male/female encounter, of any kind, the man is, always, everywhere and forever, responsible for the outcome. To attempt to hold her responsible is directly to imply that she has authority, and thereby to violate the supposedly divine order.

    But that’s what you expect for men (and, of course, women) who crave power and status. The last thing they crave is responsibility – that’s for the little people under them to pick up. The hireling will always run from responsibility, taking credit for the output of others around them but fleeing the consequences of what happens “under” their own “leadership”.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    It would not surprise me that someone coming from a Banner of Truth or ARBCA environment could react in such an unhinged manner about something that touches a core issue. I certainly come off the hinges when somebody touches my core issues.

    Is the core issue with these guys complimentarianism (?), Patriarchy, or the issue of sexual abuse of children? I guess I’m confused about what sets them off.

    If they just get their undies in a bundle because they are being challenged by women, then it is the weakest and most pathetic display of mental acuity I have ever seen. I mean, really. I was always taught that your ideas ought to be able to stand up under scrutiny, and if they don’t, then you don’t have any ideas. You (generic you) have nothing to offer anyone. Why would anyone follow these guys then?


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    One of them is that, in any male/female encounter, of any kind, the man is, always, everywhere and forever, responsible for the outcome.

    Yep.

    Instead its heads we win, tails you lose.


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    Lea wrote:

    I do wonder how much being female affects the reactions from this type of person. It seems like it can’t not, but I don’t know how to do a proper trial. Are the male watch blogger types of similar stature getting the same results? Are there any male watch blogger types with comparable reach?

    I was asking something similar in this post from another thread:
    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/08/14/a-despicable-and-cowardly-letter-will-delay-our-post-until-tomorrow/#comment-335278

    Here is part of what I said in that post:

    Maybe I’m off about this, but, I wonder if Deb and Dee were “Doug and Dave” if this letter-mailer would’ve gone this route.

    A lot of these complementarian guys view women as big children, and as property of their husbands.

    So instead of speaking to the woman one on one as an equal and fellow adult, they will report the woman to her church or husband.


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    Lydia wrote:

    Chantrys dad, Walter, was like some sort of guru to a small ultra Reformed group. And following the timeline, it’s pretty obvious dad knew. I kept seeing the name on Neo Cal blogs when I was researching the movement, Didn’t they sell books?

    I suspect he knew too.

    Yes, he was a big chief among that crowd and authored a good number of books.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    It fits the behavior I’ve observed from ARBCA people in a close encounter (We’re only doing this to save your soul.)
    I think it is because the group is so dead certain they are right.

    What we experienced at our most recent former church (not an ARBCA church) is a weak form of this mindset.

    That reminds me of a scene from the Sci-Fi movie “Serenity,” in a scene where Mal is talking to the bad guy.

    The bad guy is acting out of a religious-type conviction.

    The bad guy says to Mal,
    “I believe in something greater than myself. A better world. A world without sin.”

    Mal replies:
    “So me and mine gotta lay down and die… so you can live in your better world?”

    (At least the bad guy says he knows he is evil and is a monster.)

    You can watch that scene on You Tube here:
    A Better World – scene from Serenity Movie:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeT7MzDcpeg


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    An Attorney wrote:

    This guy is DANGEROUS! He has spent a lot of effort to find out a lot about you and your husband, including where you worship, etc. That is stalking to an extreme. Please, please contact your local police department with the evidence, including the names and contact information for your pastor and other church members. He has committed a crime or has made preparations to commit one, and those preparations are a crime in some states.

    Oh my yes, I agree 100% with your assessment, An Attorney. And since his criminal actions haven’t achieved the desired effect, he may try to implement another plan into operation. If his lust for bringing Dee down has not been satisfied then who knows what he is capable of. I say “he” because I have no doubts that Nobody is a male.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Banner of Truth was really big among the Baptist YRR True Believers before Piper became the face of the movement

    I wasn’t deeply involved with the group since I had gotten enough of the flavor as to what made them tick (was before the internet took off), but I do remember Chantry, the Reisinger brothers, and Al Martin were influential in said circles. John Reisinger eventually split and became a voice in NCT, Ernie was more Presby, and, if I remember correctly, Al Martin and Walt were still kingpins in the Reformed Baptist movement.

    I’d rank the GRBCA circle at the top of the authoritarian hierarchy, followed closely by MacArthur seminary grad circles, followed closely by a a peculiar flavor of NCT/Reformed Baptist circle in Kentucky and SW VA, then finally a group of NCT churches.

    Done with all of them, but not with Jesus. Was sheltered from the voice of women that were in love with Jesus all those years. What a shame.


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    @ Gram3:
    Banner of Truth is a reputable publishing company promoting Reformed, Calvinist and Puritan works. They were founded in the U.K., their current headquarters is in Edinburgh and they have an office and distribution warehouse in Carlisle PA. It isn’t right to draw them into this terrible affair. I’d rather stick with Dee’s hunch as to who the perpetrator is.


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    unepetiteanana wrote:

    I can’t be the only one to speculate who this might be, right? FRANKly, there are a lot of TURKeys out there.

    I wouldn’t put my money down on F.T. I’ve read enough of what he has written and that letter is not is writing style at all. He is much more proficient in his writing skills than Nobody.


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    Root 66 wrote:

    Exposing evil is necessary and difficult, and Jesus spoke of this very thing in John 3:20-21:

    I agree, but to the Letter Writer, Deb and Dee are the evil for exposing evil among churches and self profession Christians, so they must pay a price, see my last post to Gram 3 about the ‘Serenity’ movie.
    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/08/16/how-a-letter-meant-to-hurt-dee-in-her-church-and-community-gave-her-a-precious-gift-instead/comment-page-1/#comment-335776

    It’s warped and twisted. The Letter Writer has things backwards.

    Dee and Deb are doing the right thing by exposing abuse and hypocrisy among Christians (see 1 Cor 5), but Letter Writer’s allegiance is to a certain denomination, set of pastors, or theology – not to Jesus Christ, or to helping and protecting the innocent.

    Letter Writer’s morals are totally backwards. He may think he is serving God in some weird way, but he’s acting more on behalf of Team Satan.


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    bunny wrote:

    My two cents, please do let the police know of this. Anyone who would do what *nobody* did is not in their right mind.

    Yes, I agree. He is an ideologue bent on ruining Dee’s reputation. The lengths that he went to in order to do this are quite alarming. He had to meticulously plan every detail with malicious intent.


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    ishy wrote:

    It was months before he gave up. His anger was clearly misdirected from his girlfriend to me, but he stalked me for months after they broke up.
    I do wish we had better treatment of mental illness…

    Oh yeah, tell me about it. I was stalked over a period of years – over five yrs – by one guy.

    That’s more than persistence, that is warped dedication.


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    Kin wrote:

    If so, then the letter prob came from the Carisle, Pa area.

    Yes, did the snail mail letters have P.O. stamps on them? They should show the city of origin and the date they were mailed.


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    Max wrote:

    bunny wrote:
    Anyone who would do what *nobody* did is not in their right mind.
    Agreed. Until I read Nobody’s letter, I was feeling that this guy is just a harmless New Calvinist groupie. His words point to a deeper problem typical of cult behavior.

    Yep, “cult behavior” describes it quite well. The ends justify the means when a Movement becomes more important than the welfare of people. People will bow to that cultic Movement’s agenda, even if in doing so they must lie, cheat, malign and harm others. Those who oppose or threaten the Movement’s agenda must be brought down by whatever means possible.


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    ishy wrote:

    there are many men in this world who are completely delusional in their belief that all women want them.

    The Billy Graham Rule is partially predicated upon that very view (that all women find all Christian men attractive, sexy, attractive and would want to boink them if they could).

    The other view that BGR is based on (among a few) is that all women (esp. single ones) are harlots.


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    Beakerj wrote:

    But the intent is creepy, wrong & stalky so please get the authorities involved & put the pugs ( & Debs’ equivalent) on high alert. Tulip, I’m looking at you here.

    Nothing against Tulip, but maybe you need a REAL dog for this. 🙂 (Doberman, German Shepherd, etc.) Our mastiff mix (now deceased) used to scare people with her huge bark, though she was a sweetie once she knew the person was “safe”.
    Seriously, though, watch the pups as well; you never know what some folks will stoop to…


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    Shauna wrote:

    Daisy I’m dying over here thanks for making me laugh lol. I got some pug stickers

    Or, if Dee prefers, rather than send a handwritten wacko note in crayon with pug stickers all over it…

    I can send her a nutso digital letter via e-mail using a “Ransom” font.

    I refer to something like this (from the “1001 Fonts” site):
    Ransom Note Fonts
    http://www.1001fonts.com/ransom-note-fonts.html

    If you’re going to send someone a bonkers note, you really should go all the way, and get the aesthetics right.

    Give them that special touch that says, “I may not be mentally altogether there.”


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    ishy wrote:

    He tried to hack our site, my email, and my home network, and lied to mutual friends about me. They wouldn’t believe me because he came across as “such a good guy”. It was months before he gave up. His anger was clearly misdirected from his girlfriend to me, but he stalked me for months after they broke up.

    BTW, I remembered something while thinking about this. Most of his email/message threats were incoherent and almost incomprehensible and he hadn’t been known for that at all. When he later admitted he was wrong (thankfully), he admitted that he had been abusing various substances almost nonstop for months. So, writing style and level of scary can definitely change because of that.


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    dee wrote:

    Daisy
    I would love the crayon letter with the pug stickers so long as there were no slashes through the faces of pugs.ROFL (Tulip says she is not amused.)

    Oh no, no, no violence to Pugs at all, not even hinted at.

    I really am fond of animals and despise animal abusers.

    If I sent you a wacko letter with Pug stickers all over it, I’d do things like print my letter “K’s” and “R’s” backwards and insist I can understand Tulip when she barks.

    I might even claim to be a Pug myself, an advanced species of Pug from Planet Puglandia, writing the letter.


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    A.Tumbleweed wrote:

    Is the core issue with these guys complimentarianism (?), Patriarchy, or the issue of sexual abuse of children? I guess I’m confused about what sets them off.

    I believe the core issue is that most of them are mentally ill. I think Christians are just very gullible and pastoring churches are the only places they can get away with it.


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    readingalong wrote:

    Nothing against Tulip, but maybe you need a REAL dog for this.

    Tulip senses a diss against her abilities as a protector of humans.


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    Lydia wrote:

    Also home of the phrases such as “blogging divas” and the “monstrous regiment of women bloggers”. Women bloggers really wore them out. Hee hee.

    Ha! good.


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    @ Anonymous Oracle at Delphi:
    Thank you for your comment. You and *An Attorney* seem to be in agreement. That means something to me. I think it might also be helpful if the prosecutor in Chantry’s case is made aware of what is going on.


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    Daisy wrote:

    The Billy Graham Rule is partially predicated upon that very view (that all women find all Christian men attractive, sexy, attractive and would want to boink them if they could).
    The other view that BGR is based on (among a few) is that all women (esp. single ones) are harlots.

    Boy, don’t I know. The things I’ve heard as a single woman in Baptist churches for 20 years…

    I eventually settled on my own rule. It’s called: “Touch me without permission and I will break your hand.”


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    Thank you all for your love and support. Think of me going to church this weekend. I wonder if I will get some inquiring and discrete glances in my direction? My husband is on call so he won't be able to attend with me.I will be lying low in the back pew. I am considering wearing a hat like this. It will be sure to clinch my new reputation as someone to watch but not approach.

    http://www.coolibar.com/product/Ultra-Sport-Hat/158013.uts

    [GBTC: Cleaned up the link]


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    dee wrote:

    I am considering wearing a hat like this.

    I was picturing when Scarlett shows up in some party in a red dress, but there wasn’t a hat apparently, just some filmy thing.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcoztASPSyg


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    dee wrote:

    BTW-this proves just how careful we have been with your identity.
    This is a good example of how we view confidentiality. For 9 years, we have been tight lipped about the real identity of the GBTC. He is actually a member of Taylor Swift’s girl squad.

    So I can scratch Katy Perry off the list of possible GBTC identities.

    (Perry is a pop singer who is infamous for disliking and feuding with Swift)


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    I always assumed that was your real name.

    A Frank Zapa fan are we?


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    Lowlandseer wrote:

    @ Gram3:
    Banner of Truth is a reputable publishing company promoting Reformed, Calvinist and Puritan works. They were founded in the U.K., their current headquarters is in Edinburgh and they have an office and distribution warehouse in Carlisle PA. It isn’t right to draw them into this terrible affair. I’d rather stick with Dee’s hunch as to who the perpetrator is.

    Banner of Truth may not be involved, but the materials they print were hyper-loved by the hyper-calvinists (some of them, in retrospect, quite frightening in their ideas and ideals) we used to associate with.


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    @ BeenThereDoneThat:
    Yes, I had found that, but thank you.


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    @ kin:
    I cannot even bring myself to click on any link to any Facebook group whose members named it “The Banner of Truth.”
    Extreme Eye Roll.

    With a name like that, they probably think they’re the final arbiters of all that is godly, good, and pure.

    Reminds me of those really old discernment sites I used to visit over a decade ago, run by a guy or two who would name everyone in Christianity you’ve ever heard of as being false believers and teachers, except for themselves and their grandmothers.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Reminds me of those really old discernment sites I used to visit over a decade ago, run by a guy or two who would name everyone in Christianity you’ve ever heard of as being false believers and teachers, except for themselves and their grandmothers.

    I knew one of those guys in college. His site is actually still up (and in the same awful early 90s giant colored text on black style), but it seems to be run by somebody else now.

    That guy married and cheated on two women before he got out of college. And still thought he should be a pastor…


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    dee wrote:

    I wonder if I will get some inquiring and discrete glances in my direction?

    I’ll loan you my niqab. Guaranteed to get you some not-so-discrete glances. You will be watched for certain. 🙂


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    @ Lowlandseer:
    I don’t know anything about these BoT people, but I went to the Facebook site and people were like ‘my husband explained the bible to me like a child’ and ‘these books are the most important thing ever second only to the bible’ so eh.


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    Daisy wrote:

    I finished scrolling down through the Exhibits pictured, and Letter Writing Guy, I am not seeing what the problem is.

    Yeah, me too, Daisy. I think he’s saying that he, uh, doesn’t like Dee and doesn’t like that she’s exposing the sins & crimes of others in the church. So he himself feels led to expose the sins of someone in the church, namely Dee. Is there an irony here?

    And what exactly is “advocating victimhood?”


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    Daisy wrote:

    Yes, did the snail mail letters have P.O. stamps on them? They should show the city of origin and the date they were mailed.

    Since none of us got a letter we’re trying to track down a real envelope with a post mark. Most of them were tossed when the staff opened them. We have a good lead on one. 🙂


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    @ Burwell:

    We’ve known each other for over 27 years. Longer than almost anyone in the area. 🙂

    Now to go mow the yard. (Another clue for anyone trying to figure it out.)

    😉


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    Lea wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    They’re nearly all female and not in “submission to his loving authority” (to quote Joe Carter).
    I do wonder how much being female affects the reactions from this type of person. It seems like it can’t not, but I don’t know how to do a proper trial. Are the male watch blogger types of similar stature getting the same results? Are there any male watch blogger types with comparable reach?

    AND… Are there male watch bloggers who have been maligned and threatened like the Deebs? I’m speaking here specifically about the Christian bloggers. I don’t know one way or the other but it would be interesting to know.


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    Daisy wrote:

    @ kin:
    I cannot even bring myself to click on any link to any Facebook group whose members named it “The Banner of Truth.”

    Extreme Eye Roll.

    With a name like that, they probably think they’re the final arbiters of all that is godly, good, and pure.

    My writing partner once told me about the SCARIEST Reconstructionist site he ever encountered on the Web. It’s name? “GOD HATH SAID”.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    that would be an ARBCA member
    It fits the behavior I’ve observed from ARBCA people in a close encounter (We’re only doing this to save your soul.) I think it is because the group is so dead certain they are right. What we experienced at our most recent former church (not an ARBCA church) is a weak form of this mindset.

    Isn’t James White of Alpha & Omega Ministries an ARBCA member?


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    Darlene wrote:

    Are there male watch bloggers who have been maligned and threatened like the Deebs? I’m speaking here specifically about the Christian bloggers. I don’t know one way or the other but it would be interesting to know.

    I know of some Christian journalists and editorialists that have been, but not bloggers. I am not sure if Nate Sparks has or not, but I think if he had, it would be over his political views and not his posts on abuse in the church (which he does do). It would be interesting to know.

    As someone pointed out earlier, Pyro did make a point of talking specifically about “evil” women bloggers, even though some of the male bloggers have been just as pointed in their discussions of that group. As someone who has been stalked, I do believe men think they can get away with it with women where they would not with men. And maybe women are more likely not to confront it or try to make peace.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    My writing partner once told me about the SCARIEST Reconstructionist site he ever encountered on the Web. It’s name? “GOD HATH SAID”.

    My reaction to creepy stuff like that can be pictured in this animated GIF of Homer Simpson:
    https://giphy.com/gifs/homer-simpson-the-simpsons-bush-4pMX5rJ4PYAEM


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    ishy wrote:

    As someone who has been stalked, I do believe men think they can get away with it with women where they would not with men. And maybe women are more likely not to confront it or try to make peace.

    Yes. Example:
    Biker whose long hair makes him look like a ‘big girl’ under his helmet warns women of the dangers of sexist road rage, revealing he is often harassed – and even threatened -by men who think he is female
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3427022/Biker-long-hair-makes-look-like-big-girl-helmet-warns-women-dangers-sexist-road-rage-revealing-harassed-threatened-men-think-female.html

    If this is the same story as what I read years ago – male drivers will threaten this motorcycle guy so long as they assume he, the biker, is a woman.
    (He has long hair under a feminine style helmet)

    The moment he takes off his helmet to confront the angry male drivers (so they see he is a man), they pipe down.


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    @ BeenThereDoneThat:

    I have one from Afghanistan. Only a fabric grill to see out. They can do silk, though.


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    dee wrote:

    Thank you all for your love and support. Think of me going to church this weekend. I wonder if I will get some inquiring and discrete glances in my direction? My husband is on call so he won’t be able to attend with me.I will be lying low in the back pew. I am considering wearing a hat like this. It will be sure to clinch my new reputation as someone to watch but not approach.
    http://www.coolibar.com/product/Ultra-Sport-Hat/158013.uts
    [GBTC: Cleaned up the link]

    LoL! Thanks for the laugh, Dee. Or perhaps you could wear an Elvis wig and sun glasses.
    Like this:
    http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTAwWDQzOA==/z/POEAAMXQVERS-pu6/$_3.JPG?set_id=2


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    @ Lea:

    I read Iain Murrays (BoT founder) book, Evangelicalism Divided, back when researching Reformed and it was basically how Billy Graham and one of his mentors ruined Evangelicalism. There is a real disgust over anything approaching free will, decision making, etc.

    I always wonder how people who are totally committed to that sort of doctrine deal with it internally when one of their gurus turns out to be a complete fraud. And I think that is why they get so angry when it is discussed. It’s a real internal conflict because God chose them and humans have no part in the process. They aren’t antinomians which is how some Reformed deal with it. In my world, I can just say, I was conned and go from there.


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    Lydia wrote:

    I have one from Afghanistan.

    Perfect! This could be symbolic of what Nobody hoped to accomplish.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Reminds me of those really old discernment sites I used to visit over a decade ago, run by a guy or two who would name everyone in Christianity you’ve ever heard of as being false believers and teachers, except for themselves and their grandmothers.

    Yes, usually utilizing grammar similar to our Nobody letter writer and with a background on their webpage in stark black with multicolored type upon it, frequent use of ALL CAPS, underlines, interjections, etc, looking like a lunatic put the website together—which of course, I suppose is exactly what happened.


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Lea:
    I read Iain Murrays (BoT founder) book, Evangelicalism Divided, back when researching Reformed and it was basically how Billy Graham and one of his mentors ruined Evangelicalism. There is a real disgust over anything approaching free will, decision making, etc.
    I always wonder how people who are totally committed to that sort of doctrine deal with it internally when one of their gurus turns out to be a complete fraud. And I think that is why they get so angry when it is discussed. It’s a real internal conflict because God chose them and humans have no part in the process. They aren’t antinomians which is how some Reformed deal with it. In my world, I can just say, I was conned and go from there.

    Lydia, when one actually thinks about it rationally, it makes no sense. Their strict views on opposing free will and decision-making put them in a bind. If Monergism is true, and God makes all of the decisions, and free will is virtually null and void, then Billy Graham could only be what GOD decided for him to be. Billy Graham had absolutely no choice in the matter to be a preacher who believes in Free Will and Decision Making. So why get mad at Billy Graham’s preaching?


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    Darlene wrote:

    People will bow to that cultic Movement’s agenda, even if in doing so they must lie, cheat, malign and harm others.

    What’s really scary, Darlene, is that I see a lot of these folks circulating in the New Calvinist blogosphere. Some of them are just downright mean-spirited! Group think has taken over and they are on the move to altar the religious landscape, disregarding the overwhelming majority of believers who do not accept reformed theology. The segment that bothers me the most are the young reformers coming fresh out of seminary to takeover traditional Southern Baptist churches by stealth and deception. They apparently have no problem with lying to pastor search committees about their theological leaning in order to gain control of the pulpit to advance the new reformation. You tell me, what’s Christian about that?!


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    Maybe Mr. Nobody could connect with my buddy “A Long-Time Parishioner,” LOL. They could have a competition to see who can tell the tallest tales.

    All kidding aside, someone really is messed up when they think that lying in order to try to hurt or discredit someone is acceptable. I don’t view God as vengeful, but to the extent he or she is, folks like this surely have it coming.


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    Tom Chantry was featured at a Banner of Truth Ministers Conference several years ago:

    https://banneroftruth.org/us/resources/articles/2011/the-american-banner-of-truth-ministers-conference-2011/

    “Rev. Tom Chantry, pastor of Christ Reformed Baptist Church, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, then spoke on ‘The Penitent Minister’ (2 Kings 22:8″“20). He preached on the godly life of King Josiah, stressing his weeping over sin, his seeking and being found of God, his being assured by a merciful God, and his thorough reformation to eradicate sin.”

    Tom’s father Walt was editor of the Banner of Truth magazine for a number of years:

    https://banneroftruth.org/us/about/banner-authors/walter-j-chantry/

    “Soon after his retirement in 2002 he was asked to be the editor of The Banner of Truth magazine and continued in this ministry for seven years. Walt and his wife Joie now reside in Waukesha, Wisconsin.”


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    dee wrote:

    @ A.Tumbleweed:
    I am pretty convinced that this is coming from inside the Tom Chantry camp which appears to me to be incredibly small and very, very stern-hellfire and such. So, is ti possible? Of course. I am considering discussing this situation with the prosecutor in the case so they are aware.

    Sounds like ‘nobody’ is ‘nobodies’ . Shades of Pajama Pages. The amount of research that went into this action is concerning. File a complaint with law enforcement. Forgiveness doesn’t equal getting kicked in the pants. You can forgive and still prosecute. They won’t do it again.


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    dee wrote:

    For 9 years, we have been tight lipped about the real identity of the GBTC. He is actually a member of Taylor Swift’s girl squad.

    OMG! So am I! We should totally do lunch!


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    Daisy wrote:

    With a name like that, they probably think they’re the final arbiters of all that is godly, good, and pure.

    Yes, indeed. Myopic with a total lack of wanting perspective outside their circles. Control freaks galore. Having said that, I found a few good people in that BAD system.


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    @ Darlene:
    They always say one is totally responsible, anyway. So Graham could have no choice but be what he was chosen to be and be responsible for it. It’s mind boggling. So when one of their respected gurus tuns out to be a fraud, it really rocks their world. Same with needless tragedy. An acquaintance of mine from years ago became an agnostic when her child died in a freak accident. Not very conveient since her husband was a Reformed pastor. But with their insistence that God controls every molecule, she could not take it.


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    dee wrote:

    I am pretty convinced that this is coming from inside the Tom Chantry camp

    Tom Chantry was a favorite of the Founders Ministries, who for years have conducted a “Quiet Revolution” to Calvinize the Southern Baptist denomination. Nobody may be somebody within their ranks. The Founders are also rather fond of Al Mohler, another person named in Nobody’s letter.


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    @ Lowlandseer:
    Banner of Truth is a publishing house that publishes Puritan works, so it is not responsible for anything that people who read its books do. In the same way, ARBCA is an association of Reformed Baptist Churches that is not responsible what an individual member chooses to do. I do not think I blamed either of those organizations for the letter. It is also true that, in my *personal* experience, there are zealous young men (and some women) who “discover” BoT books and are converted to a rigid stereotypical way of thinking *if* they are not under the influence of mature believers who are not rigid. As it happened in my personal experience, the ones I encountered were rigid P&R and later rigid Baptists in ARBCA. Insulated groups produce predictable outcomes, and ARBCA is an insulated group.


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    Darlene wrote:

    Isn’t James White of Alpha & Omega Ministries an ARBCA member?

    His church, Phoenix Reformed Baptist, is not affiliated with the ARBCA, but the church is briefly profiled in Tom Chantry’s book “Holding Communion Together: The Reformed Baptists, the First Fifty Years.”

    The book does not mention the fact that James White’s church was founded by a Bob Jones University grad. Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church resulted from a church split in Phoenix’s fundamentalist Heart to Heart Chapel led by an assistant pastor enamored with Calvinism.


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    kin wrote:

    I do remember Chantry, the Reisinger brothers, and Al Martin were influential in said circles. John Reisinger eventually split and became a voice in NCT, Ernie was more Presby, and, if I remember correctly, Al Martin and Walt were still kingpins in the Reformed Baptist movement.

    Ernest Reisinger was indeed very Presby, but took the pastorate of a Southern Baptist church in Florida from which he launched the so-called Founders faction:
    Max wrote:

    Founders Ministries, who for years have conducted a “Quiet Revolution” to Calvinize the Southern Baptist denomination.


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    Max wrote:

    The Founders are also rather fond of Al Mohler, another person named in Nobody’s letter.

    My instinct when I read the letter and Exhibits is that this is a young man who trusts these men and the doctrines they have taught. Exposure by men of the flaws of his heroes is bad enough. Exposure by women is unbearable.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Exposure by men of the flaws of his heroes is bad enough. Exposure by women is unbearable.

    Abomination, repugnance, intense disgust.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    My instinct when I read the letter and Exhibits is that this is a young man who trusts these men and the doctrines they have taught.

    New Calvinism is all about indoctrinating Generations X, Y, and Z for the church of tomorrow. The movement is aggressive and militant; its leaders are arrogant and strategic. The new reformation is a cult of personality characterized by leaders who are icons and followers who idolize them. It’s all about influencers and those who have been influenced. Nobody is a victim of sorts.


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    Disclaimer: I am not an attorney, so the following story should not be construed as legal advice:

    In a different lifetime, when churches still did such things, we picked up some pretty rough kids in the rural South. I say we, as I often rode along just to enjoy the experience with my dad. That ministry and the people that loved those kids made a real difference in their lives. Some of the kids had it tough, but their reality is the only thing they knew.

    We heard some heartbreaking stories and some funny ones as well. There were occasions when these “not ready for church” kids came up against the increasingly institutional forces of church management. On one such occassion, a teenager from this group became part of a disagreement with the pastors son in law during a church softball game that included swearing and pushing. Although the coach was about twice the age of the young man and was the aggressor of the physical interaction, he remained the coach. The kids father, an owner of fighting roosters, was not one to get the authorities involved. Having rarely been to church himself, he was also unfamiliar with Matthew 18 dispute resolution. Instead, he had an impromptu meeting with the coach who found it safest to participate in the meeting beneath his desk.

    I failed to find a spiritual moral to this story because I know there isn’t one. I’ve truly forgiven the people who’ve mistreated me in the church, but I still laugh every time I remember this story. The only way I can redeem it is to say that I fear there is no place for kids like these in most churches today. Maybe those of us who stop by TWW from time to time are like those rough kids finding nowhere else to go in an increasingly hostile church.


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    Daisy wrote:

    The guy didn’t offer up proof where Dee and Deb had been wrong, as he was claiming.

    True.
    So,…Nevertheless, she persisted.
    (Or, they persisted.)


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    Gram3 wrote:

    My instinct when I read the letter and Exhibits is that this is a young man who trusts these men and the doctrines they have taught. Exposure by men of the flaws of his heroes is bad enough. Exposure by women is unbearable.

    I do think it is one of those men and not one of their followers. I actually think their following is mostly in their own minds. People read them and commented, but probably forgot about them as soon as they stopped. And that immature forceful style was common at Pyro and with them on Twitter. I do think there is another level of incoherence and crazy involved in the letter, but that could be explained by the fact that Chantry’s arrest caused one to be arrested and exposed and another to quit all his perceived internet attention for unreasonably defending him, plus maybe something like alcohol abuse.


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    Darlene wrote:

    Isn’t James White of Alpha & Omega Ministries an ARBCA member?

    Hmm I like a mystery and I’ve come up with a Nobody suspect who happens to be fond of White on Twitter. Also of Tony Miano and Chuck O’Neal. Not the direct tie in we might expect, and nobody 🙂 will have heard of him. If I’m correct, which of course I’m not, the mail will be from Illinois or Iowa and his first name will start with M.


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    @ Jerome:
    I think that was the only time he spoke at a Banner conference as I can’t find any other references to him. They have only one annual conference in the USA.

    His father Walter had several paperbacks published over the years, E Resinger two, and Al Martin four (pamphlets).

    BoT started in London in the 1950s and you can read about their history here. https://banneroftruth.org/us/about/the-story-of-banner/

    BoT can by no means described as New Calvinism which has its roots somewhere else.

    Guilt by association is reaching new heights – by zip code, by publishing group.


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    My former preacher, from the south, used to have a saying, “If you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the one that gets hit yelps”. He applied it to reactions to sermons, etc. IIRC, he used it once in a small group and one person angrily asked, ” Are you calling me a dog!?!” (Head slap)


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    Daisy wrote:

    Root 66 wrote:
    Exposing evil is necessary and difficult, and Jesus spoke of this very thing in John 3:20-21:

    It’s warped and twisted. The Letter Writer has things backwards.

    Absolutely! “Letter Writer’s” railings and rants remind me of a rabid sports fanatic that will savagely defend “his team”, regardless of how rotten they are! Clearly, he doesn’t want to be confused with the facts. Isaiah nailed it pretty well in chapter 5:20-21.


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    @ Lowlandseer:
    I thought W. Chantry was editor of their magazine in the states?


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    dee wrote:

    The group surrounding Tom Chantry is quite small and very insulated. I would not be surprised if those people know who did this. If they do, the are morally obligated to deal with this.

    You assume a lot about their morality!


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    An Attorney wrote:

    dee wrote:
    The group surrounding Tom Chantry is quite small and very insulated. I would not be surprised if those people know who did this. If they do, the are morally obligated to deal with this.
    //
    You assume a lot about their morality!

    Could they be legally obligated? (Asking honestly, not sure how that works…)


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    ishy wrote:

    I do think it is one of those men and not one of their followers.

    I have wondered if it is one of those men, and that man has a secret that he is afraid will be exposed. Maybe he committed adultery, maybe he is an alcoholic …….. whatever he has done, is is afraid he will be one of the next subjects of a TWW post.


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    Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    I have wondered if it is one of those men, and that man has a secret that he is afraid will be exposed. Maybe he committed adultery, maybe he is an alcoholic …….. whatever he has done, is is afraid he will be one of the next subjects of a TWW post.

    I guess it would be unnerving to have a secret and know that it might go public at any moment. I don’t think sending crazy letters to 40 people is going to do anything to stop that, though. You would have to be very off to think that. Or possibly under the influence, as mentioned.


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    Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    afraid he will be one of the next subjects of a TWW post

    A preemptive strike perhaps. If so, what Nobody had feared has come upon him …he is the subject of a TWW post! (sort of)


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    Lea wrote:

    possibly under the influence

    There are various ways to be “under the influence.” I heard a young reformed pastor in my area refer to New Calvinist icons as “influencers” (Driscoll, Piper, Mohler, etc.) … they influenced him during his seminary days.


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    Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    I have wondered if it is one of those men, and that man has a secret that he is afraid will be exposed. Maybe he committed adultery, maybe he is an alcoholic …….. whatever he has done, is is afraid he will be one of the next subjects of a TWW post.

    Two of them have already been covered by watch bloggers, though one was not on TWW. Nate Sparks dismantled the other. Nate’s article caused him to quit the internet, of which he believed was his primary platform. I think it is just as likely that the one arrested is a suspect here as is his buddy. And the focus on sexual abuse cases in the letter makes me think that even more.


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    Max wrote:

    A preemptive strike perhaps.

    Interesting, I was just wondering the same thing last night.


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    ishy wrote:

    An Attorney wrote:
    dee wrote:
    The group surrounding Tom Chantry is quite small and very insulated. I would not be surprised if those people know who did this. If they do, the are morally obligated to deal with this.
    //
    You assume a lot about their morality!
    Could they be legally obligated? (Asking honestly, not sure how that works…)

    likely difficult unless they knew about it in some detail prior to mailing or actively participated.


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    JYJames wrote:

    Max wrote:

    A preemptive strike perhaps.

    Interesting, I was just wondering the same thing last night.

    +1 (Shiny Object Alert) What else is happening or about to happen while the Deebs are busy swatting flies?


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    @ A.Tumbleweed:
    The eclipse? 🙂


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    Deb wrote:

    The eclipse?

    LOL – Bingo! I knew there was a connection…


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    I agree with those who have encouraged you to report this to law enforcement. If stalking and harassing behavior continues or escalates, it will be useful to have an official record of this.

    While I strongly disagree with the content of the letter, I am much, much more concerned by the research and time that went into learning about your church, your community involvement, your husband’s work, and contact information for all of the people associated with those organizations. This is stalking IMO.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    My instinct when I read the letter and Exhibits is that this is a young man who trusts these men and the doctrines they have taught. Exposure by men of the flaws of his heroes is bad enough. Exposure by women is unbearable.

    I think your instinct is correct. Especially now that I have a likely candidate who nobody knows. He’s mid-forties but that’s kind of young to me. My candidate has a connection to Todd W’s Chantry articles and has an unrelated tweet referring to being held accountable and judgement with the e.


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    kin wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    @ Lowlandseer:
    I thought W. Chantry was editor of their magazine in the states?

    Certainly was. https://banneroftruth.org/us/about/banner-authors/walter-j-chantry/

    The guilt by association accusation has merit to discuss but there are concerns. If I remember correctly, the Tom Chantry career timeline brings forth the question, ‘what did his father know and when’. Combine that with the insular thinking and strict determinism of that religious sect. It’s not like none of us have never interacted with people from that sect.

    Every teenager has to face “guilt by association” to some degree. It’s the lack of transparency that does it every time. The cover-up instead of dealing with the initial crime/problem right away.

    I admit my bias up front concerning that sect. I cannot help but identify it with the beliefs and behaviors of Pyro guys, Sproul and others.


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    Lydia wrote:

    The guilt by association accusation has merit to discuss but there are concerns.

    Well, it seems likely the person had some association with Chantry, Campbell (*least likely imo) or CJ/Mohler. Interestingly, the writing talked about Chantry last. I think, coupled with some of the disturbing Chantry related comments and attacks, it is reasonable to think of this connection as being most likely.

    So we are left with family and friends and associates. or alternately, online fanboy. I do not know enough about most of the principals to say which it is.

    I also posted something the other day about the dangers of internet sleuthing and false accusations. So I would not jump to conclusions about a specific person without evidence and promote that as certain. However, saying it might be a person like X, or associated with Y, or drawing the links between Chantry and this BoT org do not seem out of bounds to me.


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    Lydia wrote:

    It’s the lack of transparency that does it every time.

    Yes, if the writer of this letter had signed his name, like an adult, we wouldn’t have this issue, would we. Instead, he hides.


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    Deb wrote:

    The eclipse?

    Blocking the Light of the Son???


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    Lea wrote:

    @ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
    Total eclipse of the heart!

    “Turn around, Bright Eyes…”
    ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcOxhH8N3Bo


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    Gram3 wrote:

    My instinct when I read the letter and Exhibits is that this is a young man who trusts these men and the doctrines they have taught. Exposure by men of the flaws of his heroes is bad enough. Exposure by women is unbearable.

    Doesn’t that remind you of the rage-on-a-hair trigger of an Arab tribesman every time his HONOR (real or imagined) is slighted in any way? Resulting in Honor Killings, Blood Feuds, Suicide Bombings, etc?


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    Dave A A wrote:

    an unrelated tweet referring to being held accountable and judgement with the e.

    I’m not sure what that means. Gramp3 and I had a close encounter with ARBCA while advising someone who was being “counseled” by a pastor and his henchmen who were doing the accountability and judgment schtick. We thought they were being abusive and bullying. They were pretty funny in the way they went about it, but it was not funny for the person going through it at the time.


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    Lea wrote:

    I guess it would be unnerving to have a secret and know that it might go public at any moment. I don’t think sending crazy letters to 40 people is going to do anything to stop that, though.

    If anything, it would attract more attention, from speculation to actual scrutiny.
    Alcoholic Logic (or equivalent) at work?


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    Max wrote:

    New Calvinism is all about indoctrinating Generations X, Y, and Z for the church of tomorrow.

    “Give me your children and I will make them mine. You will pass away, but they will remain Mine.”
    — Adolf Hitler, cult leader


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    Eric Bonetti wrote:

    All kidding aside, someone really is messed up when they think that lying in order to try to hurt or discredit someone is acceptable. I don’t view God as vengeful, but to the extent he or she is, folks like this surely have it coming.

    “A fanatic is someone who does what God would do if God only KNEW what was REALLY going on.”


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    Regarding the discussion of Banner of Truth and guilt versus guilt by association…

    Point 1 of 2 (taking a page out of Nick’s book, hope he doesn’t mind): Tarring BoT with the same brush as an adulterer, an accused pedophile, and someone who has been accused of covering up abuse might be like saying an athletic shoe company supports whatever ills are exhibited by the athletes who endorse their products. Or to go further, like saying the company endorses terrorism if extremists who drive vans into crowds are wearing their brand of shoes at the time.

    Ridiculous, right?

    Point 2 of 2: It is years since we burned/pulped all of the books on our shelves that we’d been given by or purchased through the former church, including a portion with the BoT imprint. So I don’t have any to go back and look through.

    Can someone here who is familiar with BoT materials tell me, do their books talk about the love of God, or are they more the Marvel Avengers’ “Ant, meet boot!” version of God that our former church taught.

    Point 3 of 2: I ask this about BoT’s “bent” because their books are well-loved by the kind of people who systematically extinguished our children’s (and my) faith in a loving, caring God. (I say “systematically” as a nod to their love of systematic theology.)

    Yeah, I know, could be just guilt by association.


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    Law Prof wrote:

    Yes, usually utilizing grammar similar to our Nobody letter writer and with a background on their webpage in stark black with multicolored type upon it, frequent use of ALL CAPS, underlines, interjections, etc,

    Except for the “stark black with multicolored type upon it”, that sounds so much like the Gospel Tracts I encountered from my time in-country ALL BOLDFACE CAPS AND EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!!!!!!!!

    Or the “Send Money Or GOD *WILL* HOLD YOU ACCOUNTABLE!” letters & phone calls I used to get from the more shrill pro-life groups such as American Life League. (Remember the Bork nomination?)


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    ishy wrote:

    Daisy wrote:

    Reminds me of those really old discernment sites I used to visit over a decade ago, run by a guy or two who would name everyone in Christianity you’ve ever heard of as being false believers and teachers, except for themselves and their grandmothers.

    I knew one of those guys in college. His site is actually still up (and in the same awful early 90s giant colored text on black style), but it seems to be run by somebody else now.
    That guy married and cheated on two women before he got out of college. And still thought he should be a pastor…

    I came across these things at about the same time. They are, as Law Prof observed, characterised by shouty capitals, and out-of-context quotes both from scripture and from the writings of whoever they were targeting. They weren’t all blogs, either – some of them managed to publish books – but more often than not they were dying in a ditch over some secondary doctrine. It’s hard to be surprised by Ishy’s experience of one of them IRL; someone who fancied himself as a pastor despite having no character qualifications for the role.

    All of them, though, claim to have some form of “spiritual discernment”. Deebs have never, in all the time I’ve been a Wartburger, claimed to have any special gift of discernment. Nor do they denounce, as heretics and non-Christians, people with whom they disagree theologically. TWW was set up, not to promote a doctrinal shibboleth, but to provide a voice to the voiceless people who were – and are – being exploited and oppressed in the very same religious institutions that claim to represent the God who defends the fatherless and the widow. Worse than that; it is evident that many are oppressed, not just in, but by, those institutions.

    As the church becomes more and more enamoured of corporate success and profit, and more and more careless about the deceitfulness of riches (as one wounded and embittered 1st-century Galilean carpenter put it), the various para-church congregations and denominations should be grateful for the existence blogs like TWW. Who else is going to be able to shed any light on their behaviour?


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    Darn… I tried it by copying and pasting 371 words from this blog into it and got an even higher positive signal it was a male write. Guess this is not a viable engine.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Biker whose long hair makes him look like a ‘big girl’ under his helmet warns women of the dangers of sexist road rage, revealing he is often harassed – and even threatened -by men who think he is female
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3427022/Biker-long-hair-makes-look-like-big-girl-helmet-warns-women-dangers-sexist-road-rage-revealing-harassed-threatened-men-think-female.html

    Said biker’s hair & beard style would be high MEN’s fashion in the 17th Century.
    Like an English Civil War Cavalier.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Lea wrote:
    I guess it would be unnerving to have a secret and know that it might go public at any moment. I don’t think sending crazy letters to 40 people is going to do anything to stop that, though.

    If anything, it would attract more attention, from speculation to actual scrutiny.
    Alcoholic Logic (or equivalent) at work?

    Or just a true believer/fanboy without much sense.


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Thank you for a decent chuckle this morning.


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    @ refugee:
    Sorry, HUG, that came out oddly. I didn’t want to exaggerate and say “belly laugh” or ROFL but it actually did hit a funny spot.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    Yes, usually utilizing grammar similar to our Nobody letter writer and with a background on their webpage in stark black with multicolored type upon it, frequent use of ALL CAPS, underlines, interjections, etc,
    Except for the “stark black with multicolored type upon it”, that sounds so much like the Gospel Tracts I encountered from my time in-country ALL BOLDFACE CAPS AND EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!!!!!!!!
    Or the “Send Money Or GOD *WILL* HOLD YOU ACCOUNTABLE!” letters & phone calls I used to get from the more shrill pro-life groups such as American Life League. (Remember the Bork nomination?)

    Either they’ve discovered that the methods aren’t terribly effective anymore, and have changed approaches, or I’ve been pretty sheltered of late (I tend to avoid “religious” blogs and websites these days, except for a few watchdog blogs.)

    Are they still doing this? I remember it, too. The style is something like, the writer wants to emphasize something so uses italics, but then they write something they perceive as even more urgent and important and they’ve already used italics, so they have to resort to upper-case, and as they go along, even more important and urgent material arises and so they have to underline, and then they underline the uppercase passages, and when they get to underlining italicized uppercase passages (and they’ve used up all the colors in the palate) they will either explode or implode. (In any event, they hit the “publish” button.)


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    Caroline wrote:

    While I strongly disagree with the content of the letter, I am much, much more concerned by the research and time that went into learning about your church, your community involvement, your husband’s work, and contact information for all of the people associated with those organizations.

    I have the same thoughts regarding the time and effort that went into researching all the information. On the other hand, it’s possible although I don’t know how likely the individual who sent the letters could be someone who knows Dee quite well. If that were to be true, the letters could have been prepared with minimal research and time.


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    refugee wrote:

    Point 3 of 2: I ask this about BoT’s “bent” because their books are well-loved by the kind of people who systematically extinguished our children’s (and my) faith in a loving, caring God.

    From my quick peak at the facebook page, they are super fond of puritans. Will be interested to see what other people think.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Or the “Send Money Or GOD *WILL* HOLD YOU ACCOUNTABLE!”

    Don’t forget STEALING FROM GOD! That one will always put the fear of god inta’ ya’!!


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    HUG, I just read the link to the Mercedes Lackey document from 2001. Really??? Death threats for writing fiction according to her own ideas rather than what (some of) her fans want to read?

    Taken together with the current topic at TWW, I am wondering once again, is the occurrence of mental illness on the rise? Or is it just more visible with the communication methods available in modern society?


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    Lea wrote:

    refugee wrote:
    Point 3 of 2: I ask this about BoT’s “bent” because their books are well-loved by the kind of people who systematically extinguished our children’s (and my) faith in a loving, caring God.
    From my quick peak at the facebook page, they are super fond of puritans. Will be interested to see what other people think.

    Were the Puritans of the “Ant, meet boot!” variety of believers, or did they believe in a loving God? I admit, it has been some years since I read any of those “Puritan paperbacks” and a lot of what I read in those days is mercifully blurred in my memory.

    Makes it a bit hard to add anything of substance to a conversation, though. All I have is remembered bits and pieces and an overarching feeling of despair.


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    refugee wrote:

    I admit, it has been some years since I read any of those “Puritan paperbacks” and a lot of what I read in those days is mercifully blurred in my memory.

    Search me. I have a vague memory of having to read Pilgrams Progress as a kid, but that’s about it.

    Quote highlighted on their page: “The sight of a man’s own misery and lost estate by nature is a ready way to make him prize Christ highly”

    I don’t feel a pressing need to read the puritans.


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    Sidenote: I had this idea that Pilgrims Progress was sort of a big deal when I was in elementary school and forced to read it, but I obviously didn’t like it because I never read it again. So I went to the wiki page to see kind of what it was about…

    Before coming to the Hill of Difficulty, Christian meets two well-dressed men named Formality and Hypocrisy who prove to be false Christians that perish in the two dangerous bypasses near the hill, named Danger and Destruction. Christian falls asleep at the arbor above the hill and loses his scroll, forcing him to go back and get it. Near the top of the Hill of Difficulty, he meets two weak pilgrims named Mistrust and Timorous who tell him of the great lions of the Palace Beautiful. Christian frightfully avoids the lions through Watchful the porter who tells them that they are chained and put there to test the faith of pilgrims.

    I kind of want to beat my head into a wall just reading the summary.


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    Lea wrote:

    refugee wrote:
    I admit, it has been some years since I read any of those “Puritan paperbacks” and a lot of what I read in those days is mercifully blurred in my memory.
    Search me. I have a vague memory of having to read Pilgrams Progress as a kid, but that’s about it.
    Quote highlighted on their page: “The sight of a man’s own misery and lost estate by nature is a ready way to make him prize Christ highly”
    I don’t feel a pressing need to read the puritans.

    Nor do I.

    Hmmm. Do you suppose there is method in the madness? Perhaps some have taken that Puritan idea to mean if you make people miserable enough (or beat them down enough that they have no self image left at all, because “self-esteem” is an evil humanist psychological concept), they’ll embrace Christ?


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    Gram3 wrote:

    I’m not sure what that means.

    Sorry for vagueness. I’d been thinking about how people came to TWW in roundabout ways sometimes. Something Nobody wrote about judge and jury reminded me of a Wilhelm article taking issue with another article saying not to be judge and jury of Chantry or Tullian T. There I saw some tweets disagreeing with Todd and looked at one guy’s more recent tweets. In addition to being a fan of some usual suspects, in one tweet the guy talks and spells similarly to Nobody’s comments to Dee.


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    @ refugee:
    A further thought, incorporating contemplation of mental illness: Are people suffering from depression and/or anxiety more likely to fall into these charlatans’ trap?

    I know an awful lot of contented unbelievers who, despite the typical problems and challenges and curveballs life throws at them, feel no need for Christ at all.

    I guess they would be considered the unelect.


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    refugee wrote:

    A further thought, incorporating contemplation of mental illness: Are people suffering from depression and/or anxiety more likely to fall into these charlatans’ trap?

    Or does their theology lead logically to depression and anxiety?

    (Which is it? Chicken? or Egg? or both?)


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    Lea wrote:

    refugee wrote:
    I admit, it has been some years since I read any of those “Puritan paperbacks” and a lot of what I read in those days is mercifully blurred in my memory.
    Search me. I have a vague memory of having to read Pilgrams Progress as a kid, but that’s about it.
    Quote highlighted on their page: “The sight of a man’s own misery and lost estate by nature is a ready way to make him prize Christ highly”
    I don’t feel a pressing need to read the puritans.

    I had to read the children’s version of , Pilgrims Progress, when I was 8/9?
    I still can picture the hideous drawings of some of those characters. The book gave me nightmares.


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    refugee wrote:

    Or does their theology lead logically to depression and anxiety?

    (Which is it? Chicken? or Egg? or both?)

    A Calvinist friend who suffers with (from?) depression absolutely refuses to consider this question.


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    refugee wrote:

    Or does their theology lead logically to depression and anxiety?
    Which is it? Chicken? or Egg? or both?

    Oh! I get to use my favorite theological answer for this or that questions:

    YES.

    🙂


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    @ me:
    It looks like the Bible study was spared this nonsense. Did you ever imagine when I said I was starting a blog this would happen???


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    @ me:
    There is no question the person who wrote this is male and is part of a small legalistic crazy group.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    “A fanatic is someone who does what God would do if God only KNEW what was REALLY going on.”

    Love it.


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    Lea wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    It’s the lack of transparency that does it every time.
    Yes, if the writer of this letter had signed his name, like an adult, we wouldn’t have this issue, would we. Instead, he hides.

    For people who claim to follow Jesus, this is not an option, because it’s something that Jesus never did, nor did any of His disciples or followers as recounted in the New Testament. They owned what they did, the hiding in the dark while attempting to destroy someone’s reputation in this manner, as a stalker, lying while pretending to be representing a larger group, doing so in a manner patterned to destroy the person, is just anathema to what Christ taught. It just seems to come straight from hell, no nice way of putting it.


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    @ dee:

    Absolutely. What would I do without them?

    Best regards,

    God


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    @ Dave A A:
    The point being, even if I have the wrong Nobody, Nobody may have no personal fish to fry. He may have seen a tweet by a pastor friend and ended up finding TWW. Not liking what he read, he tried to comment to hold Dee accountable. Failing that, he resorted to more drastic measures so her church or associates might hold her accountable. Failing that, I guess he’ll just need to come out and name his name and further support his case and answer objections– like any good salesperson.


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    refugee wrote:

    Are they still doing this? I remember it, too. The style is something like, the writer wants to emphasize something so uses italics, but then they write something they perceive as even more urgent and important and they’ve already used italics, so they have to resort to upper-case, and as they go along, even more important and urgent material arises and so they have to underline, and then they underline the uppercase passages, and when they get to underlining italicized uppercase passages (and they’ve used up all the colors in the palate) they will either explode or implode. (In any event, they hit the “publish” button.)

    This is related to the crowd who drive the vans with three dozen bumper stickers on back including the one starting with “WARNING: In Case of RAPTURE…” and several dozen hand-painted scriptures (in an unsteady hand) covering all sides of van. Typically driven by a man wearing a beaten up cowboy hat who goes by “Brother So & So” with a wife in the passenger seat who goes by “Sister So & So”. Neither of them understands the meaning of a single one of those scriptures—but they sure have ’em memorized!


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    Or the “Send Money Or GOD *WILL* HOLD YOU ACCOUNTABLE!”
    Don’t forget STEALING FROM GOD! That one will always put the fear of god inta’ ya’!!

    Last time my wife heard that from the pulpit it was 35 years ago from a pastor named Lonnie from the Tampa Bay area—“Yer stealin’ from Gawd if ya don’ give at least 10%!” Quite naturally, Lonnie—a close personal friend of Bennie Hinn—was later caught with hand in cookie jar embezzling from the church.

    So the only one stealing from God was the one accusing others of doing it.


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    refugee wrote:

    Point 3 of 2: I ask this about BoT’s “bent” because their books are well-loved by the kind of people who systematically extinguished our children’s (and my) faith in a loving, caring God. (I say “systematically” as a nod to their love of systematic theology.)

    Their mission is to reprint and distribute Puritan books which were out of print. In principle, I favor more information rather than less and more speech rather than less speech. I first learned of BoT from a person in a fringe group that was a perversion of classical P&R theology, and IIRC you were in a group like that. BoT materials do not necessarily lead to that, IMO.


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    Law Prof wrote:

    Neither of them understands the meaning of a single one of those scriptures—but they sure have ’em memorized!

    I’m always amazed the people in comment sections who read an entire article laying out points about some issue and then they say:

    1. You aren’t biblical because you didn’t cite scripture a thousand times or
    2. Just cite a bunch of random scripture, about forgiving or something, and act like they proved their case.

    Do they have any idea how thin an argument they are making, or rather no argument at all? Do they have any idea you can make a case for something to other Christians assuming they know scripture without just quoting it?


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    @ Law Prof:
    It’s really just sad.


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    Lea wrote:

    I’m always amazed the people in comment sections who read an entire article laying out points about some issue and then they say:
    1. You aren’t biblical because you didn’t cite scripture a thousand times or
    2. Just cite a bunch of random scripture, about forgiving or something, and act like they proved their case.
    Do they have any idea how thin an argument they are making, or rather no argument at all? Do they have any idea you can make a case for something to other Christians assuming they know scripture without just quoting it?

    Many of them have been actively taught not to think, not to use logic, not to use the brains that God gave them or even to consider the possibility that a key way in which we’ve been made in the image of God may be that we have the capacity to reason. Some of them take pride in being foolish, ignorant, unthinking, blind—they think it’s godliness.


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    Ken G wrote:

    Caroline wrote:
    I have the same thoughts regarding the time and effort that went into researching all the information. On the other hand, it’s possible although I don’t know how likely the individual who sent the letters could be someone who knows Dee quite well. If that were to be true, the letters could have been prepared with minimal research and time.

    Good point. I didn’t think of that, but that’s pretty creepy behavior too. I still think it should be reported.


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    Jerome wrote:

    Darlene wrote:
    Isn’t James White of Alpha & Omega Ministries an ARBCA member?
    His church, Phoenix Reformed Baptist, is not affiliated with the ARBCA, but the church is briefly profiled in Tom Chantry’s book “Holding Communion Together: The Reformed Baptists, the First Fifty Years.”
    The book does not mention the fact that James White’s church was founded by a Bob Jones University grad. Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church resulted from a church split in Phoenix’s fundamentalist Heart to Heart Chapel led by an assistant pastor enamored with Calvinism.

    What is with all the schisms within Protestantism? …..And they’ll know we are Christians by our church splits. 😉


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    ____

    Glorious Approbation: Meaningful N’ Thoughtful Resolution, Perhaps?

    …all bout da base, bout da base, no rebels?!?
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RV5WqRnFejI

    hmmm…

    Q. What is gonna keep da TWW Coolibar (R) mamma’s little 501(c)3 church ‘Son shine’ ™ in place?

    huh?

    Darlene (Dee) Parsons has given eventful notice that she will graciously continue her work on this blog and elsewhere to help those who have been broken, hurt, injured, and otherwise let down by their ‘questionable’ 501(c)3 ‘churches’, –some in the most egregious way possible -child sex abuse.

    “Hit it!”
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5rBKjfuJRSQ

    Hang in here, I got a little situation…
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dgoDwquiwRM

    SKreeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch!

    Exciting huh?

    Might wanna stay tuned…da best is yet ta come?

    Yep.

    (See your bible for details)

    ATB

    Sòpy
    ___
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FyzE9thQIPo
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dOnhBKPSuWA
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wgtMW38vsUs
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JB7fjEtzrsk

    😉


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    Law Prof wrote:

    This is related to the crowd who drive the vans with three dozen bumper stickers on back including the one starting with “WARNING: In Case of RAPTURE…” and several dozen hand-painted scriptures (in an unsteady hand) covering all sides of van.

    I am reminded of the study that showed that the more bumper stickers a person’s car sported, the more likely the driver was to engage in road rage.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    a perversion of classical P&R theology,

    Good way of putting it.

    I’m not advocating censoring, I just like to have some kind of understanding where an author is coming from. For example, with 9Marks. I know that their writings are predicated on the basis that they believe in authority-based relationships and established order, and that church membership is a non-negotiable absolute necessity, and so they fit their interpretations of scripture in all areas to correspond to that foundation.

    BoT and the Puritans may be quite sincere in their approach to religion, but it might be helpful (to me personally) to know if they are coming from the idea of worm theology, for example, or God as primarily angry, wrathful, so holy that he is unapproachable and unrelatable, or if he is thought of as delighting in his creation, even man as part of that creation, desirous of relationship (I can’t tell you how many times I heard that God doesn’t “need” us but he condescends to know us), pitying our state, seeking after the lost, etc.

    It helps, somehow, to know the foundation an author is building on. Sort of like a jumpstart to considering the points they are trying to make.


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    Mae wrote:

    I had to read the children’s version of , Pilgrims Progress, when I was 8/9?

    I don’t know if this was a children’s version or not. I don’t have fond memories, though.


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    refugee wrote:

    I am reminded of the study that showed that the more bumper stickers a person’s car sported, the more likely the driver was to engage in road rage.

    That probably needs to modified to political bumper stickers. I don’t think the marathon crowd is too much of a danger 🙂


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    Gram3 wrote:

    My instinct when I read the letter and Exhibits is that this is a young man who trusts these men and the doctrines they have taught. Exposure by men of the flaws of his heroes is bad enough. Exposure by women is unbearable.

    I myself was wondering about the letter writer’s age. If he’s over the age of 35, I would be surprised.


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    refugee wrote:

    Are they still doing this? I remember it, too. The style is something like, the writer wants to emphasize something so uses italics, but then they write something they perceive as even more urgent and important and they’ve already used italics, so they have to resort to upper-case, and as they go along, even more important and urgent material arises and so they have to underline, and then they underline the uppercase passages, and when they get to underlining italicized uppercase passages (and they’ve used up all the colors in the palate) they will either explode or implode. (In any event, they hit the “publish” button.)

    I used to visit a site or two like this in the early 00s.

    Christian sites whose authors found it necessary to emphasize almost every sentence.

    For concepts that were kind of important, they’d put it in bold face. If it was a bit more important, it would be in bold AND italics. Depending on importance, up you’d go with this scale, where some stuff was blinking (remember the Netscape blink tag??), stuff was underlined, some sentences were in bright read, some ALL CAPS, sometimes animated GIFS of flashing arrows were used.

    The entire page would look like a circus.

    What happens when you emphasize everything on your web page is that nothing is emphasized.

    If anything, my eye was always drawn to the one or two sentence fragments that were normal – no red color, no blinking, no caps, no bold, no italics. LOL.

    I have a confession to make, though. I kind of miss the late ’90s and early ’00s amateur days of web design.


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    @ refugee:
    Then it wouldn’t work.


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    @ refugee:
    Definitely true on buses when I lived in South America. The faster they drove, the more religious paraphanalia on the dashboard and hanging from the rear view mirror. A few times I figured I’d be in heaven before the Rapture!


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    Lowlandseer wrote:

    @ Jerome:
    I think that was the only time he spoke at a Banner conference as I can’t find any other references to him. They have only one annual conference in the USA.
    His father Walter had several paperbacks published over the years, E Resinger two, and Al Martin four (pamphlets).
    BoT started in London in the 1950s and you can read about their history here. https://banneroftruth.org/us/about/the-story-of-banner/
    BoT can by no means described as New Calvinism which has its roots somewhere else.
    Guilt by association is reaching new heights – by zip code, by publishing group.

    Lowlandseer, I agree with you that Banner of Truth isn’t New Calvinism, per say. Although Ernest Reisinger did write a book titled A Quiet Revolution, of which I’d wager you already know the subject matter. I’d say that those in the Reisinger Camp were forerunners to New Calvinism. Back in the 90’s I attended a Calvinist church that wanted to pattern itself after John MacArthur’s Grace Community Church. John G. Reisinger, Ernie’s brother, was a guest speaker at my former church on various occasions. They (those who attended this church and embraced Calvinism), were just as adamant that Calvinism is the gospel per Spurgeon’s quote. They just weren’t caustic and belligerent in how they went about achieving their goals to convince others of their beliefs. *As a side note, although I attended that church for a decade, I could not be convinced of the tenets of Reformed theology.*

    I’d posit that the methods of A Quiet Revolution were not radical enough for many in the Reformed/Calvinist Camp. Hence, Neo-Calvinism was born! Their revolutionary approach has accomplished goals that those in the Reisinger Camp could only dream of.

    Now to Tom Chantry. Back in 2006 I became familiar with the Pyromaniacs blog. Chantry commented on that blog with regularity. He achieved a special status and was treated with respect by the moderators of that blog, Phil Johnson, Frank Turk and Dan Phillips – the Three Amigos as they liked to call themselves. A few times Chantry was even given moderator status. Now, why do I mention this? Because Chantry, although he was connected to Banner of Truth, which wasn’t a New Calvinist entity, did indeed take on New Calvinist traits. He associated himself with some of the most aggressive, arrogant, antagonistic people in the New Calvinist Movement. Chantry’s methods of communication on that blog were just as voracious in dealing with those in opposition to Calvinism as were the Three Amigos.


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    refugee wrote:

    A further thought, incorporating contemplation of mental illness: Are people suffering from depression and/or anxiety more likely to fall into these charlatans’ trap?

    As someone who had clinical depression from childhood into adulthood and still deals with anxiety, no. IMO, we’re sad and afraid all the time, but not naive enough to fall for stuff.


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    @ Mae:
    I have tried, really tried and cannot get through to the end. That is not a genre I enjoy, either, so that did not help.


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    Law Prof wrote:

    Last time my wife heard that from the pulpit it was 35 years ago from a pastor named Lonnie from the Tampa Bay area—“Yer stealin’ from Gawd if ya don’ give at least 10%!”

    I think Robert Morris of that big church in Dallas used that same line, or ones similar to it. He tells his church members if they don’t cough up their ten percent to him, it opens the doors to demons, divorce, job loss, and I forget what all else.


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    @ Darlene:
    “A Quiet Revolution” was featured on the SBC Founders blog for free for many years. I sent tons of people to it up until about 5 years ago.

    It was absolutely the playbook for church takeovers. It became the MO for SBTS even when Mohler blew past Ascol in influence and position. Chp 4 is basically a primer on how to deceive the people who hired you for Gods glory.

    I honestly can’t really separate all those guys out.


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    Lea wrote:

    I’m always amazed the people in comment sections who read an entire article laying out points about some issue and then they say:
    1. You aren’t biblical because you didn’t cite scripture a thousand times or

    Sometimes some Christians even do this when and if the author says,
    ‘I won’t be using a lot of Scripture to make my points here.’

    Ruth Tucker did that in her book about domestic abuse and male headship.

    If I remember correctly, Tucker states somewhere in her book that as she has written volumes in the past dealing with complementarian clobber verses, she would not be doing that in her present book on the impact of complementarian headship teachings on her abusive ex-marriage.

    So, what does Tim Challies (and other complementarian) reviewers do when reviewing Tucker’s book?

    They nit-picked her book about domestic abuse for not doing a detailed study of the favorite complementarian clobber verses.

    Even though she had written books about that stuff previously and said that was not the point of her current book in the book itself.


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    Daisy wrote:

    He tells his church members if they don’t cough up their ten percent to him, it opens the doors to demons, divorce, job loss, and I forget what all else.

    Low blood sugar.


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    Burwell wrote:

    Daisy wrote:
    He tells his church members if they don’t cough up their ten percent to him, it opens the doors to demons, divorce, job loss, and I forget what all else.
    Low blood sugar.

    Hangnails and dandruff.
    And mosquitos!


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    refugee wrote:

    Burwell wrote:

    Daisy wrote:
    He tells his church members if they don’t cough up their ten percent to him, it opens the doors to demons, divorce, job loss, and I forget what all else.
    Low blood sugar.

    Hangnails and dandruff.
    And mosquitos!

    Pelvic discomfort…


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    refugee wrote:

    (I say “systematically” as a nod to their love of systematic theology.)

    sys·tem·at·ic the·ol·o·gy
    1. A way to be systematically wrong with confidence.


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    A.Tumbleweed wrote:

    Jesus said that Christians would be known for the love they have for one another. One question I have in the midst of this kind of trouble is “Where is the love?” (located).
    In this case, it is clearly being demonstrated by Dee, Deb, their support structure, their churches, pastors, et. al.
    It is clearly NOT being demonstrated by “Mr. Nobody” & company.
    “Nobody” and people who think like he does are fond of saying that “the most loving thing you can do for someone is to tell them they are going to hell. (or expose their sin)” His actions spring forth out of that idea, which is ingrained in their theological system. Out of the heart the mouth speaks.
    They do not know that they have turned the word “love” on it’s head. The evidence for that is in the actions that come about as a result. This letter serves as a primed example of what happens when sin-filled men use religion as a cover for their vices.
    The church (real, not corporate) needs to stand unified against this kind of hate. It is my sincere desire that this man (or these men / group) are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. After all, “it’s the most loving thing we can do” for him.

    The thing is they twist even the word of love. That’s the same way how some so-called church leaders can justify burning heretics on the stake and even slavery. They can twist the word of God to say whatever they want to say. And when you hear them, it is flat out scary to hear.

    The Holy Spirit gives us discernment. These false-believers and abusers knew exactly what they are doing. They know what the bible said about true love, yet they twist it to fulfill their own selfish and hateful desires. Below are some fictional things I wrote to reflect how they think.

    Burning Heretics on the stake: This is a loving act. We are showing other heretics what will happen to them if they don’t submit and obey us and our theologies. Yes this one heretic dies. But think about all the other heretics we are saving from hell! It is out of “love” for these other heretics that we burn this one to death. And if these other heretics don’t repent, we will burn more and more of them until the rest do repent. We are showing them the fire of hell by burning them now, so others will repent. This is true love!

    Slavery: These slavery never had a chance with Jesus. But thanks to us enslaving them and forcing them to attend church, they now get a chance with Jesus. We saved so many people from the fires of hell by enslaving them. This is true love!

    The same thing of course applies to any abusive person.

    Abusive husband: You have to understand that my wife is a terrible cook. Others might like her cooking, but she often do not cook the meal to exactly the way I wanted it. Is she really “Loving her neighbours as herself” when she can’t even cook the meal exactly the way I wanted it? And if not then how can she be at true Christian? I must beat her up and punch her in the face to discipline her! I didn’t do this because I hate her. I punch her in the face because I love her! She must learn to submit to my God given authority. God often practice tough love with Israel. Since I am supposed to be “Christ-like”, punching her in the face is the loving thing to do. This is true love!


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    @ GuyBehindtheCurtain:
    I have suspicions now. How many sisters do you have?


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Darlene:
    “A Quiet Revolution” was featured on the SBC Founders blog for free for many years. I sent tons of people to it up until about 5 years ago.
    It was absolutely the playbook for church takeovers. It became the MO for SBTS even when Mohler blew past Ascol in influence and position. Chp 4 is basically a primer on how to deceive the people who hired you for Gods glory.
    I honestly can’t really separate all those guys out.

    Hmmm…you’ve given me something to think about, Lydia. I suppose I’m remembering the folks who attended my former church that was Calvinist, and it didn’t appear to me that they were as vicious as these New Calvinists. Yes, they were convinced that Calvinism is the correct expression of the Christian faith, and that their interpretation of the Bible was the Right One. But they didn’t trash all other non-Calvinist Christians the way these New Calvinists do.


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    I would conclude that they corrupt the word “love” by saying “The end justifies the mean”. That means for the “greater good”, a local small “sin is justified”.

    So they say things like: “I am only doing this local small evil and sin here, in order for greater justices and greater love for more people.”

    You can plug in anywhere here. For example Bob abuses his wife but is an important elder in the church. So to keep Bob’s service, the church pastor help him cover up the abuses and forced his wife to keep quiet. The sin (abuse) is justified by the greater good (keeping Bob’s service to the church, donations, reputation of the church, etc).

    By this they are also saying that God ALLOWS local small sins for the greater good. And this is perhaps the GREATEST HERESY possible when it comes to God. Because they are saying God’s law only applies SOME of the time in SOME of the situations. So sins are only SITUATIONAL. And of course these times and situations are determined by some ELDERS and PASTORS in their congregation.

    Hence when the TIME and SITUATION is RIGHT, go ahead and burn the heretics, allow slavery, napalm bomb little children in Vietnam, abuse your wife/husband, protect the abuser while excommunicating the victim instead, and all other sort of evil and sinful behaviors. All of these sins justified because the elders and pastors said so.

    Hence the prophecies from Paul to Timothy comes true. I can even quote ESV here since God said what he said.

    2 Timothy 4:3-4

    3 For the time is coming when people will NOT endure sound[a] teaching, but having ITCHING ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to SUIT their OWN PASSIONS, 4 and will turn AWAY from listening to the truth and WANDER OFF into MYTHS.


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    dee wrote:

    There is no question the person who wrote this is male and is part of a small legalistic crazy group.

    I’m still thinking that Nobody is connected to the Founders Ministries, or at least sympathetic to their mission to Calvinize the Southern Baptist Convention. They are definitely a small legalistic group, with some members who are loony-tunes.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Lea wrote:
    I’m always amazed the people in comment sections who read an entire article laying out points about some issue and then they say:
    1. You aren’t biblical because you didn’t cite scripture a thousand times or

    Sometimes some Christians even do this when and if the author says,
    ‘I won’t be using a lot of Scripture to make my points here.’
    Ruth Tucker did that in her book about domestic abuse and male headship.

    And now HUG’s quote comes to mind: “I have a verse! I have a verse!”

    This reminds me of a thread on a Calvinist Facebook site that I commented on the other day. The o.p. asked if Christians should celebrate Christmas. In my answer, I didn’t quote from the Bible. Not One.Single.Verse!!! Horrors! A woman in so many words attempted to shame me. Well….HELLO?….there isn’t a verse in the Bible that says we should or should not celebrate Christmas. Not One Single Verse. So why make the Bible say something that it doesn’t?


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    ___

    This nefarious character’s prolific effect would have been better served if they would have simply gotten their proverbial underwear out of a bundle, and slowly N’ expeditiously promoted the profusely populous ‘Puritan Hard Drive’ ™ : http://www.puritandownloads.com/

    …thus fulfilling the Charles Haddon Spurgeon age old adage: ‘above all read…’

    🙂


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    Darlene wrote:

    I suppose I’m remembering the folks who attended my former church that was Calvinist, and it didn’t appear to me that they were as vicious as these New Calvinists. Yes, they were convinced that Calvinism is the correct expression of the Christian faith, and that their interpretation of the Bible was the Right One. But they didn’t trash all other non-Calvinist Christians the way these New Calvinists do.

    I don’t think it’s surprising. The Founders and the New Calvinists both have enacted their takeovers by deception and they do as much deceiving of their own YRR as non-Calvinists. So there are a lot of decent people in churches heavily guided by these small groups. A church I used to go to was in that position. They joined up with Acts 29 and 9 Marks for awhile, but when the truth started coming out, they left both. If a pastor wasn’t indoctrinated at SBTS or SEBTS, they probably don’t have the level of indoctrination that came from A Quiet Revolution and it’s more modern counterpart, Revitalize (by Andy Davis). Both seminaries have a class called “Leading Change in the Local Church” (used to be Church Revitalization, straight out of Davis’ book).

    This follows along with what I’ve been noticing for awhile that Founders and New Cals don’t talk about Christ’s ministry. Most of their followers haven’t even noticed. And there are sermon services which write sermons for New Cal pastors, so they don’t even interact with the text themselves. The actual level of engagement of Scripture is pretty low, but they push very heavily the idea that reading their theologians is the same thing.


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    Lydia wrote:

    “A Quiet Revolution” was featured on the SBC Founders blog for free for many years. I sent tons of people to it up until about 5 years ago.

    It was absolutely the playbook for church takeovers. It became the MO for SBTS even when Mohler blew past Ascol in influence and position. Chp 4 is basically a primer on how to deceive the people who hired you for Gods glory.

    You can buy it now for $3.00. Chapter 4 was full of nuggets for young pastors wanting to know how to deceive their way into a church to Calvinize it for the glory of God. As you note, Al Mohler did an end-run around Tom Ascol to champion New Calvinism within SBC ranks. The young reformers are now accomplishing what the old guard Calvinist Founders couldn’t after years of trying … Calvinization of the largest non-Calvinist denomination in American. Most SBC-YRR don’t even know who Ascol is – he just isn’t cool like Mohler.


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    Darlene wrote:

    Well….HELLO?….there isn’t a verse in the Bible that says we should or should not celebrate Christmas. Not One Single Verse. So why make the Bible say something that it doesn’t?

    Because a Verse (better yet, a LOT of Verses) PROVES that God Is On MY Side.


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    Darlene wrote:

    Well….HELLO?….there isn’t a verse in the Bible that says we should or should not celebrate Christmas. Not One Single Verse.

    Ha! there isn’t one about starbucks cups either. Or how soon Christmas stuff should be out in the stores.

    Similarly, there are no bible verses referring to my iphone, but it exists. There are none about the ‘biblical’ way to handle laptops in the classroom.

    I really hate this attempt to spiritualize every little thing. I don’t think God cares what color I’m wearing today or how I did my hair.


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    Daisy wrote:

    He tells his church members if they don’t cough up their ten percent to him, it opens the doors to demons, divorce, job loss, and I forget what all else.

    Cough up or Pastor Conjure-Man puts his HEX on you.

    In both Pennsylvania Dutch lore and Manly Wade Wellman’s weird fiction, you find a lot of Witches and Conjure-Men and Hexen who extort money from victims by threatening to Hex them. Whether by their own magickal powers or by siccing their Familiar Spirit to make an example.


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    Law Prof wrote:

    This is related to the crowd who drive the vans with three dozen bumper stickers on back including the one starting with “WARNING: In Case of RAPTURE…” and several dozen hand-painted scriptures (in an unsteady hand) covering all sides of van

    The more bumper stickers on a car, the crazier the driver.

    If you can’t tell what color the car’s painted, RUN!


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Because a Verse (better yet, a LOT of Verses) PROVES that God Is On MY Side.

    I’m going to start making arguments and leaving random unrelated verses on every comment.

    For God Says “Come buy wine and milk without money and without price.” Isaiah 55:1


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    @ Lea:
    That’s mine!


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    @ Max:
    What about Pulpit and Pen? They have a history of going to great lengths to stalk and ruin.


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    Daisy wrote:

    The bad guy says to Mal,
    “I believe in something greater than myself. A better world. A world without sin.”

    Mal replies:
    “So me and mine gotta lay down and die… so you can live in your better world?”

    SHINY…


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Lea:
    That’s mine!

    I’m kind of sad there aren’t any bible verses about whiskey.


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    @ Lydia:
    Could be. There are several strange corners of the reformed movement that could produce folks like Nobody.


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    dee wrote:

    It looks like the Bible study was spared this nonsense. Did you ever imagine when I said I was starting a blog this would happen???

    Well, it’s obvious that YOU DON’T BELIEVE THE BIBLE!!
    And you also have a JEZEBEL SPIRIT!!
    Filled with rebellion and self will!!


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    Lea wrote:

    Sidenote: I had this idea that Pilgrims Progress was sort of a big deal when I was in elementary school and forced to read it, but I obviously didn’t like it because I never read it again. So I went to the wiki page to see kind of what it was about…

    Before coming to the Hill of Difficulty, Christian meets two well-dressed men named Formality and Hypocrisy who prove to be false Christians that perish in the two dangerous bypasses near the hill, named Danger and Destruction. Christian falls asleep at the arbor above the hill and loses his scroll, forcing him to go back and get it. Near the top of the Hill of Difficulty, he meets two weak pilgrims named Mistrust and Timorous who tell him of the great lions of the Palace Beautiful. Christian frightfully avoids the lions through Watchful the porter who tells them that they are chained and put there to test the faith of pilgrims.

    I kind of want to beat my head into a wall just reading the summary.

    Yeah. That’s a genre of literature you don’t see much any more — full-honk 17th Century Allegory.

    “Hinds’ Feet in High Places” with “Little Miss Much-Afraid” is but an echo of that kind of Allegories.


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    dee wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    “A fanatic is someone who does what God would do if God only KNEW what was REALLY going on.”

    Love it.

    I remember hearing that one-line definition long ago, but don’t remember anything about the source.


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    ishy wrote:

    but they push very heavily the idea that reading their theologians is the same thing.

    The blind leading the blind. What does Ezekiel say about the shepherds that are a click off? Not good.

    Some whackadoodles use Scripture unscrupulously; even satan himself did so with Jesus.

    Nevertheless, I love God’s Word. Like Jesus responding to satan in the wilderness, the Word of God backs up the Word of God. Praise God for His Word.


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    Lea wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    @ Lea:
    That’s mine!

    I’m kind of sad there aren’t any bible verses about whiskey.

    That’s because because the Bible didn’t originate in Ireland.

    “God created whisky to keep the Irish from conquering the world.”


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    Lea wrote:

    I’m kind of sad there aren’t any bible verses about whiskey.

    Well, not about a fine single malt made by Scots in the old way but There’s this…

    Deuteronomy 14:26 – And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household…


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    @ Muff Potter:
    All they had was strong wine and maybe something akin to mead.


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    Oh, the irony!

    TWW speaks publicly about the abusers of power and influence, using facts and verifying information.
    NOBODY speaks privately to the powerful or influential to try to squelch the voice of TWW, using opinion and malice.

    Deebs, {{{hugs}}}


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    @ Muff Potter:
    Strong drink is the closest you get.

    Lots and lots of wine references! But they were all just grape juice *eyeroll*


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    ishy wrote:

    And there are sermon services which write sermons for New Cal pastors, so they don’t even interact with the text themselves.

    I’ve often wondered about this. Their message seems all too coordinated to not be coming from a single source.


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    It I were to put stickers on my vehicle, not a chance of course, one would say ‘let’s assume I’m right …and move on’ and the other would say ‘I told you so’.


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    @ Lea:

    Because they had great refrigeration.


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    @ Muff Potter:

    The immigrant Scots over here in our mountains used to make some stuff, but it is a tad stronger than that. Okay, multiple tads, but who is counting. If you get a chance you ought to take a wee sip just for reasons of cultural diversity. Nasty!


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    On the subject of diverse libations, I tried to make homemade beer in my kitchen back in the day. Total disaster. You could smell it a block away. IIRC I may have been threatened with divorce if I ever tried that again.


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    okrapod wrote:

    @ Muff Potter:
    The immigrant Scots over here in our mountains used to make some stuff, but it is a tad stronger than that. Okay, multiple tads, but who is counting. If you get a chance you ought to take a wee sip just for reasons of cultural diversity. Nasty!

    My BIL is from Eastern TN. He brought us some, ‘white lightning’, many moons ago. We held it up to the light, and we could
    see particles of something floating around in it. I tried about a half teaspoon of it…..absolutely vile tasting.


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    @ Mae:

    This is probably silly, but I have thought that making some would come in handy when SHTF. Some seriously intense alcohol could be used as a disinfectant, and used for burners like we used to do in the lab back when, So I sent off to a homeschool supply place and got some beakers and flasks and an alcohol burner and a condenser coil and some tubing and stuff in the faint hope that I remembered something from college chem, but I never got the plumbing hooked up for the water to cool the condenser. It would not be hard; I just quit the project. All that is in a bin underneath my bed. If things in general get bad enough I might see if I could do it. It sounds more appealing to me than raising chickens. Just make the stuff and trade for eggs maybe.


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    Lea wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    Because a Verse (better yet, a LOT of Verses) PROVES that God Is On MY Side.
    I’m going to start making arguments and leaving random unrelated verses on every comment.
    For God Says “Come buy wine and milk without money and without price.” Isaiah 55:1

    The funny thing is, Lea, that woman on the Calvinist Facebook site was quoting all kinds of Scripture that had nothing to do with celebrating (or not celebrating) Christmas. When I called her out on it, she defended herself saying all Scriptures are related to each other. I responded to her: “In that case, Jesus wept” – trying to get her to think rationally. Instead, she retorted, saying that Jesus wept because of people’s rebellion. No, Jesus wept because of the death of His friend, Lazarus.

    By the way, that Christmas thread turned into a train wreck of some Calvinist’s using the Regulative Principle to defend celebrating Christmas, while others used the same Regulative Principle to criticize Christians who celebrate Christmas. And then there were those calling people idolaters and the offended firing back with their insults. Believe me, it got ugly. And all because of Christmas. Go figure. 😉


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    Lydia wrote:

    @ Lea:
    Because they had great refrigeration.

    Btw, Lydia. Are you familiar with ‘The Message’? I think its’ a cult, something to do with Branham, and maybe originated out your wayish? I’ve been trying to figure it out.


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    @ okrapod:

    Good on you for giving it a, go.
    They say when SHTF to have: cigarettes, booze, pot and matches, on hand to trade for eggs and bread, etc.
    I haven’t bothered to store such things but the list makes sense.


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    Darlene wrote:

    . Instead, she retorted, saying that Jesus wept because of people’s rebellion. No, Jesus wept because of the death of His friend, Lazarus.

    I was about to just say dumb, but really, people shouldn’t just be spouting off what things mean when they have no CLUE what they mean. Idiot.

    Next time, quote her this one and tell her it’s about christmas 😉 “Luke 15:23-24 ESV. And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate. For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.”

    BTW, this is not calvinist thinking at all. It’s just random thoughts some person has. My church is calvinist, and there is a liturgical calendar and christmas is on it, etc. etc.


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    Mae wrote:

    He brought us some, ‘white lightning’, many moons ago.

    Legit ‘moonshine’ is kind of a thing now. You can buy it at the store…i think they might have drinks at outback (weirdly).


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    Lea wrote:

    Mae wrote:
    He brought us some, ‘white lightning’, many moons ago.
    Legit ‘moonshine’ is kind of a thing now. You can buy it at the store…i think they might have drinks at outback (weirdly).

    Has to be more refined , then the back woods stuff. I can’t imagine drinking it straight.


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    @ Mae:
    Yes, I’m sure it is!


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    okrapod wrote:

    @ Mae:

    This is probably silly, but I have thought that making some would come in handy when SHTF. Some seriously intense alcohol could be used as a disinfectant, and used for burners like we used to do in the lab back when, So I sent off to a homeschool supply place and got some beakers and flasks and an alcohol burner and a condenser coil and some tubing and stuff in the faint hope that I remembered something from college chem, but I never got the plumbing hooked up for the water to cool the condenser. It would not be hard; I just quit the project. All that is in a bin underneath my bed. If things in general get bad enough I might see if I could do it. It sounds more appealing to me than raising chickens. Just make the stuff and trade for eggs maybe.

    Home brewing beer is one thing – I did it for years with excellent results. One of my brothers still maintains that the best beer he ever had was one of my brews…

    But a couple of things about distilled spirits. First, it’s still totally illegal. (It is legal to brew 200 gallons of beer per adult in the household – thank you Jimmy Carter!)

    With the aforementioned allotment of beer in mind, a friend of mine wrote to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (the joke around here is that shouldn’t be the name of government agency – it should be the name of a store!) asking what the allowed amount of distilled spirits per household might be. He got an email in return, in ALL CAPS, saying – Don’t do it – moonshining is still illegal!

    Second, you can seriously hurt yourself if you don’t know exactly what you’re doing with distilling. Good ol’ ethanol isn’t the only thing that comes off the mash, and you can easily make yourself blind, or very sick, or very dead.

    That said, the best ‘strong drink’ I ever had (I don’t really do strong drink, generally, just beer) was made by an elderly gentleman in the backwoods of Alabama. It was the smoothest, subtlest tasting, easiest sipping tipple I think I’ve ever had.


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    @ roebuck:

    I don’t believe I said anything about drinking it. Did I not say disinfectant and fuel?


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    okrapod wrote:

    @ roebuck:

    I don’t believe I said anything about drinking it. Did I not say disinfectant and fuel?

    Shows you where my head is at 🙂 A friend of mine is dabbling in distilling for fuel purposes. Disinfectant is good to have. I believe it’s still illegal, though…


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    okrapod wrote:

    If you get a chance you ought to take a wee sip just for reasons of cultural diversity. Nasty!

    This poor old sod’s sippin’ days are all over. When I was a younger drunk I would have done a helluva-lot-more than a wee nip of the stuff you speak of. I drank for oblivion, like all of us recovering alkies did. Now I’m an old drunk who hasn’t had a drink in 21 years. To do otherwise would be like signing my own death warrant.


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    This nut case that sent the letter is more consumed with defending his idols than he is a doctrinal position. At least it seems that way. I do not feel the need to convert others to my doctrinal positions, but I do know how it feels when someone I respect disappoints me. There is a tendency to be in denial. Over the years I have learned to stand on my own two feet and not put others on such a pedestal. The “group think” people struggle with that.

    This person probably cannot bear the fact that many of his “reformed heroes” are turning out to be fraudulent hypocrites.

    I am not afraid to say “where there is smoke there is fire”….and at the same time legally, you are innocent until proven guilty. The YRR people that come on here defending their heroes cannot seem to figure out that the biblical standard in I Tim 3 does indeed cover your reputation. If your ministry is in disarray, with all kinds of infighting and accusations spilling out into the blogosphere…. you really need to take responsibility and step down.

    On top of that….. Chantry was charged with a crime!!!! I like reading here and I really think you guys (gals) are simply providing coverage. The reformed snowflakes can’t handle it.


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    @ okrapod:

    FWIW I do not like coffee or wine or booze. It is not something religious; I just don’t like them.. I did used to like some beer but gave that up years ago also because of calories. If I wanted to make an alcoholic drink for whatever reason I would look at fermenting some fruit juice, but I don’t see much reason to do it. I also gave up cigarettes in 1964 and I gave up food enough to have a BMI at the lower end of normal.

    How boring! But those are good health habits. I would be in great shape had I not sustained a bilateral trapezius strain trying to trim a holly tree with 3X loppers. Pity. All that self discipline only to be felled by a pair of loppers.


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    @ Lea:
    No. The only Message I know is Eugene Peterson.

    Just looked it up. Yikes.

    http://branham.org/en/home

    (Branham is a prophet of God)

    It’s right across the bridge in Indiana. Great.


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    @ Muff Potter:

    That is good work Muff. Seriously good work.


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    okrapod wrote:

    The immigrant Scots over here in our mountains used to make some stuff, but it is a tad stronger than that.

    The Western employees of a certain ME oil company distilled their own 190+ proof concoction. It’s highly illegal in this very conservative country, but that didn’t stop people risking the occasional still explosion to enjoy their libations. One enterprising man started a business here in the US producing the drink of his yourh, though it’s not nearly as strong as the ME version. 🙂


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    Lydia wrote:

    It’s right across the bridge in Indiana. Great.

    Yes. It’s a long way from my stomping grounds. Yikes is right. I am seeing some info, but limited, but it looks like some of this patriarchy on steroids plus a dash of…something else.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Because a Verse (better yet, a LOT of Verses) PROVES that God Is On MY Side.

    I want the Bible verse for that or no dice.

    (see what I did there?) ha ha.


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    Lea wrote:

    I’m kind of sad there aren’t any bible verses about whiskey.

    Of course there are:

    To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life.

    Whisky is derived from the gaelic uisge-beatha which means, of course…


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    George wrote:

    On top of that….. Chantry was charged with a crime!!!! I like reading here and I really think you guys (gals) are simply providing coverage. The reformed snowflakes can’t handle it.

    Oh, that whole “crime thing” often gets lost in these discussions and on them. They treat the sexual abuse of a child as if its a mere indiscretion among friends, which really reveals a blackened heart, IMO. It is criminal. It’s not merely “boys being boys”.

    Anyone of any theological persuasion should be questioning their adherence to a religion that turns out pastors like that, and that treats criminal activity as lightly as mere roughhousing.

    These people ought to be in sackcloth and ashes, but no. They protect each other and pose for holy pictures at conferences.

    Makes me sick.


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    @ roebuck

    The town we lived in Georgia, back thirty plus years ago, unfortunately, gained notoriety in the late 60’s, when six men died from drinking bad moonshine.


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    Lea wrote:

    I’m going to start making arguments and leaving random unrelated verses on every comment.

    Yes, that is very important. Every comment needs to be backed up by an appropriate verse.
    “But the wheat and the spelt were not ruined, for they ripen late.” – Ex 9:32


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    Huh. I looked at the vocabulary and syntax, and I can’t tell if this is written by one of low IQ, or someone who is trying to hide their identity. Certainly even if the accusations were true it exhibits all the intellectual rigor of a particularly engaging Edward Bulwer-Lytton novella, only slightly less entertaining. Well, you must be doing something right, as the vampires only bite when you shine a light on them.


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    George wrote:

    This person probably cannot bear the fact that many of his “reformed heroes” are turning out to be fraudulent hypocrites.

    So true. I long for the day when this blog will no longer be necessary because those who profess to be so godly actually start walking the walk instead of just talking the talk.

    Alas, this STOOPID letter proves that it's gonna be a while before Dee and I can do more leisurely things.


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    Deb wrote:

    I long for the day when this blog will no longer be necessary because those who profess to be so godly actually start walking the walk instead of just talking the talk.

    Lord, let it be!

    I long for the day when I don’t feel compelled to comment on blogs to join the voices who inform and warn the church about aberrant ministers and ministries. The hedge is down in much of the American church and the enemy is coming through the gap … those who see it must continue to speak.

    Thank you Deebs. For everything there is a season – times of refreshing will come.


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    okrapod wrote:

    Nick, I am so sorry. I note that nobody referenced as evidence one each reply from Dee to C, LP and me but nothing in a reply from Dee to you.

    Thankyou, Okrapod, for your kind words (on both counts). I did momentarily feel a little left out, I must admit.

    Maybe I should come up with some kind of bombastic alter-ego to use as a sock-puppet.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    some kind of bombastic alter-ego

    Bah.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Lea wrote:
    I’m kind of sad there aren’t any bible verses about whiskey.

    Of course there are:
    To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life.

    Whisky is derived from the gaelic uisge-beatha which means, of course…

    Wonderful! I’m too disconnected from my Scottish heritage to have learned the Gaelic


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    @ Max:
    Yes. Well said, Max and Deb. Thanks and God bless.


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    @ George:
    Well put.


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    @ Roger Bombast:
    You always make me smile!


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    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    and I can’t tell if this is written by one of low IQ, or someone who is trying to hide their identity.

    This is a question I have considered. One thing I do know-it comes from a very small groups of very legalistic men. I am fairly certain of his identity but I cannot say for now. I am alerting the right people, however. I am also planning on notifying the prosecutor in the Tom Chantry case.


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    @ Todd Wilhelm:
    I love that song. My dad used to sing it around the house. Thank you for the smile.


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    @ Todd Wilhelm:
    BTW-Mr Nobody did mention you in the post. Remember the line from the song “You’re nobody till somebody cares.” Suddenly I care about *Nobody.*


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    dee wrote:

    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
    and I can’t tell if this is written by one of low IQ, or someone who is trying to hide their identity.
    //
    This is a question I have considered. One thing I do know-it comes from a very small groups of very legalistic men. I am fairly certain of his identity but I cannot say for now. I am alerting the right people, however. I am also planning on notifying the prosecutor in the Tom Chantry case.

    Substance abuse could also affect their style, grammar, and general coherence level.


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    @ ishy:
    Now that is a good thought!


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    James White’s sister recounts him contacting her church trying to get her disciplined after she spoke up about being abused by their father:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20140822000254/http://abbaslittlegirl.blogspot.com/2009/04/out-of-darkness-cross-i-carry.html

    “he began making false accusations against me to the elders of my church at the time, demanding that I be brought up on charges for having confronted my parents with an elder of my church to discuss the sexual abuse I had been subjected to. As you have read before on this blog, that visit to my parents’ home was not met with any openness or willingness to accept counsel concerning the incestuous behavior I had endured for some ten years. My father and mother violently resisted the subject and denied any wrongdoing, other than my father’s vague acknowledgement of having ‘sinned against me.’ His vague acknowledgement was accompanied by a denial that what he had done to me was wrong.”

    Fortunately, my elder board refused to accept my brother’s accusations unless he had heard my story straight from my lips. So, I met with him at Diane’s house and told him the whole story. I not only described my father’s sin in detail, I also discussed the steps I had taken in order to find healing and peace. Even after hearing my story, my brother James was hostile, defensive, and threatening. He warned me to ‘watch what I said’ about my parents.”


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    Jerome wrote:

    I not only described my father’s sin in detail, I also discussed the steps I had taken in order to find healing and peace. Even after hearing my story, my brother James was hostile, defensive, and threatening. He warned me to ‘watch what I said’ about my parents.”

    This paragraph is particularly striking to me and emphasizes the need for TWW:

    “But the problem with that is that when dysfunction isn’t corrected, it gets passed along. It victimizes the next generation — my generation, and specifically me. It skews every part of the lives of those who come from those who have not dealt with the past. This is definitely true of my brother and me. We are both the product of our distorted, dysfunctional, abuse-ridden upbringing. We bear the scars of that dysfunction, and those scars have no doubt affected our own children.”


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    Lydia wrote:

    Just looked it up. Yikes.

    http://branham.org/en/home

    (Branham is a prophet of God)

    “Serpent Seed” Branham?


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    Lydia wrote:

    Just looked it up. Yikes.

    http://branham.org/en/home

    (Branham is a prophet of God)

    “Serpent Seed” Branham?Darlene wrote:

    I responded to her: “In that case, Jesus wept” – trying to get her to think rationally. Instead, she retorted, saying that Jesus wept because of people’s rebellion. No, Jesus wept because of the death of His friend, Lazarus.

    But that isn’t SPIRITUAL enough!
    How could she Count Coup on you Lukewarm Heathen if that was true?


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    ishy wrote:

    Substance abuse could also affect their style, grammar, and general coherence level.

    Icon-worship will do the same thing. Being “under the influence” can also include being severely influenced by influencers within religious movements, leading to cult behavior. When one’s mind is controlled by a man and his message, group think takes over and one starts acting and talking like their leader, losing touch with reason and logic. For example, Driscoll-worship, Piper-worship, etc. If I close my eyes listening to a sermon by a YRR pastor in my area, I can see Mark Driscoll (same delivery, borrowed sermons, and inflection of words).


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    I don’t want to know. (Covering ears saying la la la la)


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    @ Jerome:
    This is what is do devastating. When family sees the institutional thinking as more important than the individual wronged.


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    Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    Lea wrote:
    I’m going to start making arguments and leaving random unrelated verses on every comment.
    Yes, that is very important. Every comment needs to be backed up by an appropriate verse.
    “But the wheat and the spelt were not ruined, for they ripen late.” – Ex 9:32

    Oh really? Well….

    19 The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother’s milk. Exodus 23.


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    Lea wrote:

    Total eclipse of the heart!

    First kiss to that song, aged 14.


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    Max wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    Substance abuse could also affect their style, grammar, and general coherence level.
    Icon-worship will do the same thing. Being “under the influence” can also include being severely influenced by influencers within religious movements, leading to cult behavior.

    Though I agree, I think none of the current suspects have communicated quite like that six months ago. At least two of the ones I suspect had a much higher level of linear thought, along with better grammar. I think it would take more time for that kind of thing to have an effect.

    However, as I wrote earlier, I had a malicious stalker who was known to be fairly erudite. But the stuff he sent to us (with his name on it) was nearly incomprehensible, the point where his defenders used it to say he wasn’t really the one doing it. He admitted later he was abusing various substances during that period, which eroded his inhibition to do something like that and made him completely incoherent.


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    Lydia wrote:

    Oh really? Well….

    This is also very pertinent: “At the Parbar on the west there were four at the highway and two at the Parbar.” – 1 Chronicles 26:18 (NASB)


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    @ Ken F (aka Tweed):
    I should think so! GPS is very important. I just knew there was a verse for it.


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    Thanks. I wondered.@ Daisy:


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    That whole poison pen letter can be boiled down to Nobody claiming the following: “Dee acts like Jesus, and that threatens me. Also, I’m super important.”

    I wouldn’t be him for all the world.

    Dee, dear heart, I have prayed that God would set a special watch over you and those dear to you, that God’s presence would protect, provide for, and fill you with peace. That God would use this very process intended to harm and shame and exert control over you to fill in the rough spots and bring healing to old hurts. That God would use this experience to confirm loudly–resoundingly!–that God is pleased with your courage and tenderness and love, that God has worked through you and will continue to do so, to save and protect many.

    Keep following Jesus, my friend. You are very, very loved, and you are in the best of company. Can you hear the crowd of witnesses cheering you on?


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    P.S.
    I’m a professor at a Christian College. When I teach, I habitually refer to your work here as an example of the way God is currently at work, redeeming the world. (If that phrasing had you wondering…yep, that’s an explicitly Reformed context! You help my students see themselves as coworkers with Christ when I teach them about the creation/fall/redemption narrative.)


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    Wow. Just wow. I haven’t been on here for a while and just totally gobsmacked. The depths to which people can sink and continue to call themselves ‘christian’. Wow. You’re really blessed that God has given you pastors and friends who are sensible and caring.

    This revived memories of a dark period in my life. Years ago, in college, I was the victim of a rather vicious smear campaign that involved abusive letters (before email became the norm) being sent to women purportedly from me. Pretty nasty stuff. Got bad enough that I had to get law enforcement involved and it stopped. Don’t know who did it – to this day. He/she got scared off when I called in the cops. One of my mates reckons its a guy we knew quite well. Dunno. So, yeah, anonymous letter-writers like Mr Nobody here are lower than scum-sucking bottom-dwellers.

    May his car break down next to a serial killer’s house. At night.

    I doff my hat off to you ladies – you deal with so much stuff and then this sort of nastiness on top of it.

    What if this was Frank Turk or his bosom pal Chantry? Can definitely see guys like doing something like this, and calling it ‘christian’.


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    Ron Oommen wrote:

    What if this was Frank Turk or his bosom pal Chantry? Can definitely see guys like doing something like this, and calling it ‘christian’.

    I have wondered that myself.


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    @ Mel:
    Thank you so much for your kindness.


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    @ Jerome:
    I have heard about this off and on. I have decided to look into it. Thank you so much.


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    dee wrote:

    Ron Oommen wrote:
    What if this was Frank Turk or his bosom pal Chantry? Can definitely see guys like doing something like this, and calling it ‘christian’.
    I have wondered that myself.

    Except the writing is all wrong for Turk, who’s full of, as one commenter called it, “acerbic wit”. And he commented here under his own name on the one of the first Chantry posts. And Chantry has invoked his right to remain silent for over a year– he’d not need to add to his trouble.


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    dee wrote:

    @ Jerome:
    I have heard about this off and on. I have decided to look into it. Thank you so much.

    Though nobody could be a pyromaniac fan, I’m more inclined toward a fan of James White — no direct connection but interested in getting miscreants like you “disciplined”.


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    Mel wrote:

    P.S.
    I’m a professor at a Christian College. When I teach, I habitually refer to your work here as an example of the way God is currently at work, redeeming the world. (If that phrasing had you wondering…yep, that’s an explicitly Reformed context! You help my students see themselves as coworkers with Christ when I teach them about the creation/fall/redemption narrative.)

    Sure would like to know which Christian college, because if there are ones out there that would support this and not just circle wagons round the pastors and man-made institutions no matter what, that would be a remarkable thing and a place I wouldn’t mind sending my children. As it stands, I’m scared to death to send my Christian kids to a “Christian” college.


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    @ Law Prof:
    Maybe you could email Dee & Deb and have them exchange your addresses?


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    Law Prof wrote:

    Sure would like to know which Christian college, because if there are ones out there that would support this and not just circle wagons round the pastors and man-made institutions no matter what, that would be a remarkable thing and a place I wouldn’t mind sending my children. As it stands, I’m scared to death to send my Christian kids to a “Christian” college.

    While I have one daughter at a large public university here in NC, our recently-adopted two other children may not go that route…I would love to consider such an institution as well.