1rst

4

I’m still reading down the OP and waiting for the PDF post to finish loading.

I’m looking at the screen shots by “Nobody” (the posts that didn’t get published). He’s overly dramatic.

John 13:35. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.

Gotta say, the Deebs sound like they fit this description.

Mr Nobody and the anonymous letter sender?

Not so much.

Very encouraging response from your church/pastor. I am so pleased.

Letter writer said (as displayed in the attached PDF):

“Don’t get Ms. Parsons started on the subject of male authority in the church…”

No, don’t get Daisy started on the topic of putrid doctrine of gender complementarianism, which includes “male headship.”

Letter Writer Guy: I thought that party line of complementarians is that they do NOT believe in “male authority” but that the genders complement each other?
That they think that “women are equal in worth to men, just not in role” -?

But now, here is some guy, presumably a complementarian, admitting that complementarianism is not about honoring women, or men lovingly serving their, wives but it’s about male authority.

Nice Freudian slip!

Thank you letter writer guy, for saying what some male complementarians REALLY think about complementarianism: complementarianism is about male hierarchy, not men being “loving servants” to their wives.

Speaking of male authority, Letter Writer, have you seen this in the Bible, from Matthew Chapter 20:

But Jesus called them aside and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them.
It shall not be this way among you.
Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,…

Dear Nobody, thanks for confirming my earlier assessment. Now get some help please. To go to these lengths is indicative of a serious problem that shouldn’t be ignored. You are the one who needs to be introduced to Jesus, ’cause you ain’t got a clue. See what your theology has wrought in your brain?

Get help before its too late.

Deebs: praying for you both, families, and safety. Grace.

Wow, what a week! Never rains but it pours. I do pray your father in law recovers from pneumonia. Also, that you and your husband can settle down and recover your more normal routines.

I think this man has severe mental health issues. My goodness, he comes off as a prosecutor in the defense of God. He displays a seriously distorted POV.
It’s unsettling that he contacted all the organizations, including your church affiliations, which you and your husband are affiliated with.

In any event, the ugliness he has displayed towards you is exactly why women run from Complementarianism. He doesn’t know you but he wants authority over you….sickening.

Daisy wrote:

Dee’s “magical powers of discernment” -? (said the letter writer in the PDF).

There’s nothing magical about Dee’s ability to discern the ails of certain aspects of the New Calvinist movement. The Deebs couple an investigative prowess with simple observation abilities to report what is going on in dark corners of the organized church. They provide an important service to the Body of Christ to inform and warn. Followers of aberrant ministers and ministries which are TWW subjects should be the ones kicking and screaming about abusive leaders, but their blind loyalty prevents them from doing the right thing … so TWW and other watchblogs boldly step into the gap. TWW is a lighthouse to those who have been abused and others still ensnared. They should be encouraged to stay the course, not hindered from their assignment by others who profess to know Christ.

Letter writer said:

“…amazing she [Dee] can judge before any due process is afforded the accused..”

When news stories are published online, every one forms a personal opinion on the person and situation they read about.

That is not illegal or altogether necessarily immoral.

Re: Iain Campbell. There are several public news reports about this guy. Did Letter Writer send snail mail letters to all these people:

Via the Sun:
‘ADULTERY, SUICIDE AND REVENGE’ Remote Scottish Isle’s web of intrigue over suicide of ‘randy rev’ with claims of up to NINE affairs

Via Daily Mail:
“Church suspends mistress of minister who killed himself as his wife demands leaders kick out SEVEN women he had affairs with on remote Scottish island”

The Aquila Report:
“Iain D Campbell Accused By His Wife Of Having Affairs With Seven Church Members, Hanged Himself”

Letter writer said, “Ms Parsons personally determined Campbell was guilty of gross in”

Yeah, news outlets say he had several affairs of his sin. Sounds guilty. The media were already “airing the tragedies of a Christian to see. … Ought Christians declare guilt and innocence in matters that have no personal connection? … shouldn’t be airing accusations against a man who is dead..”

The Bible says adultery is a sin. Does Letter Writer disagree?

Daisy wrote:

Would now be a bad time for me to mail you a hand-written letter in crayon with Pug stickers all over the envelope?

Too late 🙂

Quoting Letter writer from the PDF:

Parsons’ cult of victimhood is dangerous.

“Cult of Victimhood.” ?
LOLOLOL.

Handwritten note on PDF: “A page of 35 cc’s redacted”

This person CCd 35 people/groups???

As far as some of the “Exhibits” this person included (which are shown in the PDF). I do not understand why he’s so upset or offended by some of them.

Dee is completely right in some of the screen grabs this guy took of her comments to Okrapod and others where she is pointing out that pedophilia is running rampant in evangelical Protestant churches and not acknowledging this puts kids at risk. That is a fact.
I don’t know why Letter Writer Guy is steamed over that.

And what is wrong with the screen grab with the label Ex. 4? The guy didn’t offer up proof where Dee and Deb had been wrong, as he was claiming.

I finished scrolling down through the Exhibits pictured, and Letter Writing Guy, I am not seeing what the problem is.

I suspect the problem is you just get bent out of shape when anyone criticizes any church or pastor that you support, even when that criticism has been published on sites such as The Sun, Daily Mail, and other sources.

You don’t like people pointing out the flaws with your friends or churches you like.

Daisy wrote:

I finished scrolling down through the Exhibits pictured, and Letter Writing Guy, I am not seeing what the problem is.

His exhibits undermine the points he is trying to make. It would be nice to know where he was educated.

I had no doubts your church and denomination would stand by you. I am still very astonished by how far this person went. I also gave a brief summary of what happened to my pastor and she said she would be praying for you. She said it’s terrible that Christians have to deal with things like child abuse in the church, but very necessary. And I will be praying for your stepfather.

I did have a thought that this could have been a collaborative effort, done by more than one person.

That is pretty disturbing! I’m glad you had a better response than you expected.

Although I’m not surprised. You would have to be pretty delusional to think this letter would convince anyone without a personal stake in these people like chantry (which, again, the guy is legit on trial! That’s the least gossipy/slandery/whatevery post ever.

Mae wrote:

In any event, the ugliness he has displayed towards you is exactly why women run from Complementarianism. He doesn’t know you but he wants authority over you….sickening.

Right? So creepy!

This is what comes of people who yammer on about authority and women all day long. Beware.

I’m glad to hear the Deebs are doing better. Will be praying for you and your families…

I was writing an interesting post (at least for me) on child sex abuse in the Amish community

This will be interesting to me as well, since my former church used some pseudo-association with Anabapists as a defense against sexual abuse happening in their community. My research indicates it’s “a plague” in some communities. I look forward to reading your post.

YOU
CAN’T
MAKE
THIS
STUFF
UP…
WOW

Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

And let’s not forget their ability to Follow The Money (and the common sense to do so).

Anointed common sense goes a long way in seeing through the smoke and mirrors of 21st century church.

Nobody did not do a very good job of supporting his/her case, IMO. When you blast out a letter that is as breathless as this one is and expect to be taken seriously by serious people, the Exhibits need to have more substance. This is ridiculous and is self-defeating. If I received a letter like this, I would try to get the writer some professional help, because there is something going on here that has nothing to do with TWW.

Dee,

Your (attempted) tormentor calls himself “Nobody”. That is a truthful description — he is a nobody. You should not worry about a nobody. In fact, you do not even need to ignore a nobody, because he is a nobody, a nothing. He is probably not worth the raw paper on which his birth certificate was written, perhaps less than $0.01 per sheet. A negative value, and a negligible entity. You and Deb should studiously ignore him.

___

Targeted Malicious Religious Liberty Silencing: “A Current Vicious Demonstrated Disposition Towards Religious Censorship, Perhaps?”

Q. An attempt to hurt people who raise legitimate questions about serious 501(c)3 non-profit church issues?

hmmm…

“This is true liberty, when free-born men,
     Having to advise the public, may speak free,
     Which he who can, and will, deserves high prais
     Who neither can, nor will, may hold his peace:
     What can be juster in a state than this?” (1)

“…when complaints are freely heard, deeply considered and speedily reformed, then is the utmost bound of civil liberty attained that wise men look for.” (1)

*

Q. A case of defamation of character for the purpose of silencing religious opposition?

huh?

It ain’t over…

Q. An extreme attempt at ‘persona non grata’ (Latin: person not appreciated or welcomed?; a blatant threat to take this monkey business to any church you seek to attend in future; to escalate this effort until the proper end is achieved?

Could b.

*

Q. Is sarcastic humor in order at this ‘injunction’?

ding! ding! ding! ding! ding! ding!

The absolutely ‘worst’ anonymous virtual TWW performance to date: “Nasty Little Blogettes..?”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8gc-dLnvWb4

Blog detectives, it’s not too late … ‘Whip it good!’
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0LJ_yZh93oU

Smooth Move Exlax?

huh?

—> Does anyone really ‘think’ that [authenticated] pastors who harbor pedophiles and [authenticated] (1) pastors that promote [authenticated] pastors that do the same are really totally going to succeed their silence or their silencing?

(1) [authenticated] = positively verifiable proof

*

Sounding an Alarm?

“The Neo-Cal movement church-takeover ploy isn’t something limited to a single church or denomination, but is spreading throughout Christendom. I fear to imagine what will happen next as Mohler, Dever and their merry band of YRR minions wreak havoc in our (SBC) church denomination. I sound off the warning to be on the lookout for these sneaky, deceptive, power-hungry pastors! …There are truly no winners when these guys slither into your church!” -Root 66

*

Notice: For many years TWW has been criticized for allowing anyone who follows the posted rules of comment courtesy, to post comments at their blog, i.e. practicing Christian, or some other. In a day when many blog or websites do not allow for the publishing of comments, let the reader take notice that it takes a whole lot for the TWW blog owners to refrain for posting a comment on their blog.

*

Refrain :

I will lift up my eyes unto the hills, from where my help comes from. My help comes from the Lord, which made heaven and earth. He will not suffer my foot to be moved: he that keeps me slumbers not…

**

As always, you both are appreciated and ‘prayed’ for, your efforts con-sider-able…
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NJsa6-y4sDs

ATB

Sòpy
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iCioG6txmLM
___
Ref: (1) (Excerpt(s) From: John Milton, “Areopagitica / A Speech for the Liberty of Unlicensed Printing to the Parliament of England.” )
http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/608/pg608-images.epub?session_id=e0f6dfc60cd747a89a4fcac278885b4ed7b857ca

😉

—

If "nobody" really cared, they would put their name on it and they would not misrepresent where the letter is coming from…. period..

@ scott hendrixson:

“Nobody” by Sylvia, I think her name was. My mom really liked that song.

Daisy wrote:

Even the church receptionist?

This guy was thorough. Did he also send a copy to your dentist, UPS, guy and hair dresser??

And your dog?
(Now THAT would be memorable…)

Glad to hear you forgive and don’t desire to do this to Nobody:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09NjnuNgtds

Daisy wrote:

His tactics and demeanor reminds me of what I’ve seen and read about the Church of Scientology.

You, too?

Hmm…in regard to the strange choice to send the letter to the university and boards, the thought that occurged to me is that perhaps, within the bubble the ‘Nobody’ lives, the church has the local institutions in its pocket and can influence them in this manner. To me, it is the only thing that makes even a little sense of why he would send the letters to these groups.

Mr “Nobody”, do you have any evidence that Dr. Iain Campbell was NOT guilty of adultery with 7 other women? If yes please present them to us.

Every single piece of evidence we seen so far says that Campbell is indeed guilty. Even his old church, who initially defended him, now agrees that Campbell is guilty due to overwhelming evidence and testimonies. All of this are all over the news, even secular non-believing new outlets. If so how can you call this a rumor? How can you call this gossiping?

Do you even care if he is guilty? Or you are just defending him because you worship him?

You also say we should shut up just because Campbell killed himself. You said that is the “Christian” thing to do. Nope that would be the wrong thing to do. That would be like asking the author of Kings to shut up about those terrible kings, because those terrible kings are already dead. Because these terrible cases must be made an example for all the see, so future generations will not repeat the same mistakes.

Why do you worry about the “fame” of Campbell? He is dead and he now must face the judgement of Almighty God. Will his fame, good or bad, really affect Campbell’s eternal destiny? Nope his life is done. And everything he did will be judged.

Worry not about Campbell’s fame, which is meaningless. Instead worry about the future generation, other Christians, and their eternal well being. That’s why Campbell must be set as an example for others to NOT follow. How he is a pretender, a snake of Satan. And now he is being judged by God.

Lastly “Nobody”, I hope you repent. Firstly you must repent of slandering Dee. Because Dee wasn’t spread rumors, but merely repeating what is already public knowledge on the news.
Secondly you must repent for asking her church to remove her membership. Because you are jumping a lot of steps here. You must first prove that Dee is committing a very serious and clear sin, which you hasn’t. And even if she is (nope she isn’t!), her church must give her a lot of patience and talk to her many times about it. Christians don’t jump at every chance to excommunicate each other. Christians DO NOT rejoice in catching someone doing evil, but rejoice in the truth and repentance.

You delight in excommunication. Even if the excommunication is legit, shouldn’t you instead moan with a heavy heart? Why are you so happy and so excited about excommunication? Where are your mercy and grace? For this alone you must repent and question your own faith, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment. (James 2:13)

JYJames wrote:

True. For some folks in small, closed worlds, this is, unfortunately, how they operate. Intimidation, inuendo, threats – all anonymously. Sneaking around to subversively destroy someone’s reputation, black list or black ball them, as if this is the Cold War, and there is an SS or some such to socially take someone out.
TWW, the letter writer does not seem to understand, operates in openness regarding public figures and the public news (including in the courts) about those people.

I would imagine that many leaders in closed group would operate that way, since much of their ability to continue to abuse people in church depends on those people not talking about it openly and not confronting it. I do think this was a bit beyond that, though, because they seemed to really believe strangers would drop everything and take their word.

There really is so much freedom in being able to openly talk about these issues. It’s something that many of these people will never experience. They are truly very impoverished. But it does take a capacity to be flexible, of which I don’t think many abusive leaders are capable. I do think many of them exhibit signs of disassociative mental illness, but all the more reason for the church to be vigilant. Believing that all believers are priests of equal standing does help.

Dee,

I am glad that you have a good supportive Church home. If I had the power, I would give everyone that gift.

In the comments about “Nobody”‘s tactics being the same as Scientology,I am reminded of a scene from Babylon 5. Two characters, both good guys, are talking. Bruce Boxlietner is talking about using the same tactics as the Shadows, who are the very bad guys. The other one is horrified and makes the point of “if you use the same tactics you are part of the evil”

Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

His exhibits undermine the points he is trying to make. It would be nice to know where he was educated.

Possibilities include, but aren’t limited to, anywhere in the western political world where point-scoring is the primary objective of debate. This would include the politicised sub-cultures of evangelicalism.

Being educated doesn’t make a person wise, as you know; it can just give a person more creative and entrenched ways of being dishonest. The fact that the author of this letter has chosen to remain anonymous means that, quite literally, nobody has actually made any claims (credible or otherwise) against Dee.

The author of this letter is not to be taken seriously; he (just possibly she) has no honest opinions as far as we can in any way ascertain at the moment. But Deebs are to be taken seriously; very much so.

“I want you to know that I forgive you for what you tried to do.”

One can forgive and still pursue legal action. If this person did it to Dee he will do it to others. Holding this person legally accountable is a mercy to others, and probably a mercy to the ananomous writer.

@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
There are a lot of people who want to go back to the days of “gatekeepers” for news and information.

1. I love how the letter begins –

Ms. Parsons…is daily engaged in online attacks against the church

. As if the church is some monolithic entity that walks in universal lockstep around the world.

However, I think what the letter writer was actually implying was that by attacking “the church” Dee (et al) are really attacking Christ, per Acts 9:4 – “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

2. The writer stated that Dee

has personally decided that there is an epidemic of abuse in the evangelical church

(at least now “he” is specifying which branch of the church “he” is ‘defending’).

Dee, you and everyone else here need to get a hobby. Quit looking for things that do not exist – stop creating problems where there are none. There is no abuse problems within evangelicalism, so stop pretending that there are – said no one, whose eyes were open, ever.

This guy is DANGEROUS! He has spent a lot of effort to find out a lot about you and your husband, including where you worship, etc. That is stalking to an extreme. Please, please contact your local police department with the evidence, including the names and contact information for your pastor and other church members. He has committed a crime or has made preparations to commit one, and those preparations are a crime in some states. If the local police do not respond, please contact the local postal inspector and FBI office. He has invested too much in this for him to merely go away when his letters did not have the desired effect.

@ An Attorney:
+1

@ An Attorney:

Well, he has certainly committed an act of aggression, and personally I would be very concerned at this point.

Let me say here that Dee’s church and denom handled this problem well. You all remember the way that I described the handling of a school situation by a local LCMS church and its denomination. This can and does happen that churches and denominational HQ handle things well sometimes? often?.

bunny wrote:

Anyone who would do what *nobody* did is not in their right mind.

Agreed. Until I read Nobody’s letter, I was feeling that this guy is just a harmless New Calvinist groupie. His words point to a deeper problem typical of cult behavior.

Gram3 wrote:

When you blast out a letter that is as breathless as this one is and expect to be taken seriously by serious people, the Exhibits need to have more substance. This is ridiculous and is self-defeating.

Yes. I was sort of surprised to see ‘exhibits’ in the letter, and then to see what they were? Wow. To think that would have swayed anyone who wasn’t already heated about this is ludicrous.
An Attorney wrote:

You and Deb should studiously ignore him.

This was a wrong assessment.

Interesting. I’ve been thinking about this. Stalking can be dangerous and it’s difficult to address. I don’t know what qualifies, but crazy letters are not a good thing. I would be more frightened if someone had showed up in person, but this is a level before that. I absolutely agree that reporting to the authorities should be done. As for ignoring beyond that? Sometimes that is the only way to get people to go away and for things to die down. Sometimes it might inflame things. I think I mentioned a story about someone who blocked a stalker and then that person showed up and he didn’t know, because he had blocked her texts. My gut says not responding but also reporting to the police is generally the way to go in personal cases but I’ve never had anything quite like this happen, so I would Consult with the experts for advice.

Just know, praying this is a huff and puff kind of thing, not a truly dangerous person.

BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

I was writing an interesting post (at least for me) on child sex abuse in the Amish community

This will be interesting to me as well, since my former church used some pseudo-association with Anabapists as a defense against sexual abuse happening in their community. My research indicates it’s “a plague” in some communities. I look forward to reading your post.

I am so interested in this too. Last year I wrote about as much as I could find on abuse in the Amish community as my online course professor had required us to write about it in one of our discussions. It was about how the community forgave the murderer rapist that broke into an Amish school a while back, Lansing I believe? Interestingly, she had sounded rather in praise of them because she had spent some time with one community the summer before. And praise of how they forgave. I bravely wrote about what I was finding through research. Most likely, the community she visited put on a nice front. I found that the Amish are forced to forgive and that they are not allowed an education past the 8th grade. What is there to praise about that? Anyway, ‘looking very forward to the post.

Lydia wrote:

@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
There are a lot of people who want to go back to the days of “gatekeepers” for news and information.

Reichsminister Goebbels would be in full agreement.

@ Juulie Downs:

Thanks so much for your affirmation. As our readers know, Dee and I are sticklers about documentation. If there's anything we are obsessive about, it's about providing links to all of our sources.

We even provide links to the photos we use. 🙂 Who else does that???

Here’s a classic essay in the F&SF community:

“The Last Straw” from several years ago, where fantasy author Mercedes Lackey details encounters with stalker fanboys and worse. She completely ended any appearances and attendance at cons after this.

https://www.cs.csustan.edu/~mthomas/abml/laststraw.html

The letter reads like the writing of one who is not mentally well. This is not a normal pain in the derriere abusive church leader or enabler—they may be wrong headed, even hateful sometimes, but at least they generally have enough awareness to realize that such a course of action as was taken here is not rational. I agree with An Attorney, this is not a safe person, get in touch with the police.

@ Dave A A:
I’m still singing ‘your nobody called today’, so thanks to whoever upthread who mentioned THAT.

On topic, I occasionally get up a head of steam about something and consider writing an angry letter, but that impulse rarely lasts long enough to actually do it.

Lea wrote:

My gut says not responding but also reporting to the police is generally the way to go in personal cases but I’ve never had anything quite like this happen, so I would Consult with the experts for advice.

+1, FWIW.

dee wrote:

@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
Thank you. I am considering doing so. In the meantime, I wonder how Tim Challies feels about bloggers who purposely do not make money. I know his income is based on blogging. The Deebs blog purely out of concern and want nothing to do with the monetary aspect.

. . . as he blogs away pushing books and seminars and runs adds on his blog for a living, yet he is somehow better than bloggers who expose evil in the Church for free.

What am I missing here?

Law Prof wrote:

The letter reads like the writing of one who is not mentally well. This is not a normal pain in the derriere abusive church leader or enabler—they may be wrong headed, even hateful sometimes, but at least they generally have enough awareness to realize that such a course of action as was taken here is not rational. I agree with An Attorney, this is not a safe person, get in touch with the police.

My take of him too. He’s put way too much effort in this to be an ordinary crank. Speaking to the police, over the matter, seems prudent.

@ BeenThereDoneThat:
But, but, it’s godly when Challies blogs…for profit.

Actually, I think he became a paid pastor/ elder at some point after he got out of web platforms. I know he left Ingrid’s site high and dry years ago.

The tone, nature, and clumsy intent of the letter speaks for itself.

Had I received this letter, I would have thought the person was a bit unhinged, and I, too, would have been concerned for your safety. In fact, I am.

I think that it may be worth your taking this letter to a lawyer to discuss your options, and perhaps discussing it with the local police.

I don’t recommend this for the purpose of suing this guy for slander, but I do think that the local police need to be aware and that you ought to consider making sure that you have adequate security arrangements.

Law Prof wrote:

The letter reads like the writing of one who is not mentally well.

That’s what I wondered as well. It’s a good thing the Deebs carry pea shooters.

ishy wrote:

They’re nearly all female and not in “submission to his loving authority” (to quote Joe Carter).

https://www.nakedpastor.com/2016/12/complementarianism-and-biblical-manhood/

dee wrote:

The group surrounding Tom Chantry is quite small and very insulated. I would not be surprised if those people know who did this. If they do, the are morally obligated to deal with this.

After they stop giving Nobody high-five after high-five?

Burwell wrote:

I am not sure of the Campbell connection except that Wilson and his followers are die hard Scotophiles, so Campbell is innocent by the virtue of his nationality.

An alternate hypothesis is that Nobody is an Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America (ARBCA) Baptist. Campbell would be popular among them, I imagine. ARBCA is, in my own experience, very enthusiastic and tenacious about defending what it believes and is also very cloistered. It is also very tiny. At least some ARBCA churches are also aligned with the SBC. Chantry was an ARBCA pastor, IIRC. ARBCA and Founders are 1689er Baptists. Dever is a 1689er. That may be the connection to Mohler’s joke about Mahaney.

Gram3 wrote:

Burwell wrote:
I am not sure of the Campbell connection except that Wilson and his followers are die hard Scotophiles, so Campbell is innocent by the virtue of his nationality.
//
An alternate hypothesis is that Nobody is an Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America (ARBCA) Baptist.

I actually think it’s neither, but the subject of one of the exhibits, perhaps with the aid of one of his buddies. The writing style and grammar matches that individual.

ishy wrote:

Gram3 wrote:
An alternate hypothesis is that Nobody is an Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America (ARBCA) Baptist.
//
I actually think it’s neither, but the subject of one of the exhibits, perhaps with the aid of one of his buddies. The writing style and grammar matches that individual.

I will correct that, because that would be an ARBCA member, though it’s someone who has the most to lose.

ishy wrote:

I do think Nate Sparks get a good amount of lashback, but I think Nate’s additional focus on politics might have something to do with that.

Yes. That would be a confounding factor, as politics draws a lot of heat and emotion. I think it has been very wise of this site to limit their scope.

Wade Burleson is a recipient? And he threw away his copy because it was anonymous? Reminds me of Agatha Christie’s The Moving Finger.

That begs the question… was the poison pen honest in making the list of 32 cc: copies, or did he lie about that as well, and there were more than 32? (I mean, was Wade’s name on the redacted CC list?)

I would not say the next part if the letter writer were not anonymous, isn’t that ironic? Because it could be construed as slanderous (libelous?) speculation. But because I am not besmirching someone’s real-life name and reputation, I can engage in speculation. If that is not true, please delete this comment!

It has been nagging at me that the three cases highlighted by the poison pen all involved sexual as well as spiritual abuse. There is a certain “touch not my anointed” tone to the diatribe, an outrage by someone invested in the idea of authority who is appealing to “other” authorities. (I put “other” in scare quotes because it appears he perceives his own authority as equal to theirs?)

I am honestly concerned for the people in the poison pen’s circle, especially the children.

I have often wondered how “godly” abusers can live with themselves. Hearing some of the self-justifications reported here and at other sites makes it a little more understandable.

– Victim-blaming (you hear it in their sermons sometimes: Bathsheba should not have brazenly been bathing on her roof; David’s daughter should not have gone in alone to her brother – yeah, like that kind of precaution worked in the Duggars’ case).

– “God makes all things work for good for those that believe in him” and “What man meant for evil, God meant for good.” (I may be doing something I know inside is wrong, but God’s gonna fix it, so I don’t need to worry all that much about it.)

– Paul’s “Miserable man that I am!” (See? Even Paul did the things he didn’t want to do. So I must be okay.)

– David’s “Man after God’s own heart” (See? David was a murderer and adulterer, but is that what labels him? No! Even with all he did, he is known as a man after God’s own heart. So I must be okay!)

Seriously, if this guy’s identity ever comes to light, someone needs to do an investigation of the vulnerable people in his life, who might now be or have been in his power.

@ refugee:
(I meant something like “an investigation on behalf of” or “investigation in the interest of protecting” but worded it badly. Sorry.)

Lydia wrote:

@ Lea:
I doubt it. Frankly I was a bit surprised he targeted the husband’s livelihood. He must really be counting on staying anonymous.

Someone I knew in the fanfic world was targeted by an unbalanced sort who went in for all kinds of harassment. It was a long time ago, but I still remember being shocked that the attacker arranged for the target’s online utility payments to be cancelled, with an eye to getting their power shut off, in a southern state, in the hot summer months.

Apparently there are ways of getting this kind of hacking done even if one is not computer savvy him- or herself.

Be careful out there.

refugee wrote:

It has been nagging at me that the three cases highlighted by the poison pen all involved sexual as well as spiritual abuse. There is a certain “touch not my anointed” tone to the diatribe, an outrage by someone invested in the idea of authority who is appealing to “other” authorities. (I put “other” in scare quotes because it appears he perceives his own authority as equal to theirs?)
I am honestly concerned for the people in the poison pen’s circle, especially the children.

This is one reason why I question who it is. It’s almost as if they want that kind of thing to be permissible in the church. But we’ve seen so many scandals now that it seems to be fairly pervasive in that culture, because women and children are considered property and not free and equal people.

Getting law enforcement involved is probably sound advice. It is clear that “Nobody” isn’t living in the same reality as the rest of us! I wish abuses weren’t happening in the church, but to deny that they are happening and to lash out at those exposing the evil deeds defies logic and common sense…it is clearly NOT Christ-like!

Exposing evil is necessary and difficult, and Jesus spoke of this very thing in John 3:20-21: “For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.” (Quoted in ESV–in case there are any YRR Neo-Cals reading this! 😉 )

Hang in there, and keep shedding light in the darkness!

refugee wrote:

Someone I knew in the fanfic world was targeted by an unbalanced sort who went in for all kinds of harassment.

I was the victim of that kind of harassment. The reason he decided to go after me and a friend of mine is that his girlfriend at the time did a TMI infodump about their relationship on the forum I ran. It put him in a pretty bad light. I really didn’t even have anything to do with it, except for knowing too much. I moderated her post fairly quickly, so only a couple of people read it. He tried to hack our site, my email, and my home network, and lied to mutual friends about me. They wouldn’t believe me because he came across as “such a good guy”. It was months before he gave up. His anger was clearly misdirected from his girlfriend to me, but he stalked me for months after they broke up.

I do wish we had better treatment of mental illness…

@ Lea:
I should say the property thing, the authority thing, and the ‘seduction’ thing all work in concert to create an insanely messed up series of thinking about sex and abuse.

Also, I’ve gone through a lot of articles at this guys site and they are very enlightening.

Lea wrote:

He said that to a certain segment, ““seduction” is violence just like rape, women (including children) seduce, If a man and a woman have consensual sex – it is her fault…His sin is rape. Her’s is “seduction.” So, if he doesn’t rape her, then it has to have been because she “seduced” him, right? “Same sin, different manifestation.”
http://fiddlrts.blogspot.com/2015/04/john-piper-steps-in-it-on-rape-and-sex.html

It’s no different than the old victim blaming tactic of “Did you see what she was wearing? She was ASKING for it!”

Do I believe a woman can rape a man? Yes. There are power differentials where women can do so. But after a lifetime of sexual harassment, I can say with absolute fact that there are many men in this world who are completely delusional in their belief that all women want them.

Daisy I’m dying over here thanks for making me laugh lol. I got some pug stickers Daisy wrote:

From Dee’s Original Post:

This letter was sent to the leadership in my current church, other members of my church including the kind gentleman who is the facilities manager, the receptionist, the choir director, as well as denominational leaders, the chancellor of a well known local university medical center, the chiefs of certain medical divisions, the president of a related denomination’s seminary and a cardiology practice which no longer exists. It was also sent to all of the members of a community board on which my husband and I sit.

Even the church receptionist?

This guy was thorough. Did he also send a copy to your dentist, UPS, guy and hair dresser??

OP:

This gentleman said it was *bizarre* and my husband immediately became concerned for my welfare.

Would now be a bad time for me to mail you a hand-written letter in crayon with Pug stickers all over the envelope?

OP:

To top it off, my elderly stepfather contracted pneumonia and I had to call an ambulance early this morning. He is now in the hospital-

I’m sorry to hear that; I hope his health improves soon.

@ dee:
New Calvinism is an aggressive, militant movement of young reformers. They have a zeal and passion for their cause, but it is a misplaced passion. Their leaders have convinced them that they have come into the world for such a time as this to restore the gospel to the church (gospel = Calvinism). Some of them undoubtedly get confused when their icons fail and will strike back at voices who continue to flag concerns about the movement. They’ve invested their lives to pursue aberrations of faith, but just haven’t come to grips with that yet. When the bubble finally breaks on New Calvinism, thousands of Nobodys will be left dispirited and disillusioned, posing a great mission field for the Gospel if the rest of the church would get its act together to reach them.

ishy wrote:

It’s no different than the old victim blaming tactic of “Did you see what she was wearing? She was ASKING for it!”

Oh sure, but the sequence of how we got there always seemed sort of murky to me. This article I found helpful.

I also watched a Ted talk talking about rape in india that said it’s important to talk about ‘why’ we think rape is wrong. Because the wrong answers, lead to the wrong solution (like the modesty police). Easier to digest dealing with a different culture, somehow.

@ GuyBehindtheCurtain:

Well, shoot, all he had to do was ask. 😉 Lol

@ dee:

Chantry was a contributor to Pyromaniacs until they shut down, wasn’t he?

GuyBehindtheCurtain wrote:

I guess it was too much trouble to track down a real name for me.

I always assumed that was your real name.

Nobody tells me anything.

dee wrote:

For 9 years, we have been tight lipped about the real identity of the GBTC.

Is it Ben Collins?

Ben Collins revealed as the Stig

Lea wrote:

Oh sure, but the sequence of how we got there always seemed sort of murky to me. This article I found helpful.
I also watched a Ted talk talking about rape in india that said it’s important to talk about ‘why’ we think rape is wrong. Because the wrong answers, lead to the wrong solution (like the modesty police). Easier to digest dealing with a different culture, somehow.

I agree with you about discussing why it is wrong, but our culture teaches heavily that men are at the complete mercy of biology if they are tempted. Women are expected to control everything about themselves, but men can’t. And Christians have bought that hook, line, and sinker even though it comes out of secular culture. Probably because it’s easy, unlike learning to control yourself.

Lea wrote:

ishy wrote:
A friend of mine who lurks suggested it could be one of their spouses, as well.
//
Hm. But why bring in those other guys? just for cover, maybe?

I dunno. My friend didn’t think the writing style matched the current suspect list. But it could be they just listened to their spouse rant about that very thing.

I don’t think that’s who it is. The emphasis on exhibits about sexual sin tell me it’s someone who is guilty of that. No one in their right mind would think those scandals were good examples of how the Deebs were just being mean and out to get somebody.

Max wrote:

dee wrote:
My lawn guy, hairstylist, Trader Joes’ and Amazon Prime are terribly upset as well.
Whoa! Now that disturbs me – that Nobody knows the names and addresses of your lawn guy and hairstylist, and where you shop! He must be a local.
To send a letter to Trader Joes’ is just sick and wrong! Why drag them into this? Haven’t been to TJ’s in years (don’t have them in my area) – do their workers still wear Hawaiian shirts?

I may be wrong, but I read the comment about the lawn guy, hairstylist, Trader Joe’s, etc. being upset as them being upset about being left out and not getting a letter. As in, too unimportant to get a poison-pen letter. Sort of grim humor.

refugee wrote:

I read the comment about the lawn guy, hairstylist, Trader Joe’s, etc. being upset as them being upset about being left out and not getting a letter.

Yes, I totally misread Dee’s comment in this regard. You are right. Guess my age kicked in for a few seconds.

Gram3 wrote:

Kin wrote:

@ Gram3:

If so, then the letter prob came from the Carisle, Pa area.

Banner of Truth?

Just my hunch it’s someone in their circles, but could be totally off.

https://www.facebook.com/TheBannerofTruth/

That area is the stomping grounds of the good ole boys from that slice of chrisitanity. I was friends many moons ago with one pastor that was very tight with the Chantry clan, though he was not in PA. Those folks were zealously over-the-top when it came to protecting their name and organization.

@ Lea:
Dan somebody, Turk, Phil (before he quit but evidently did not quit social media) and Chantry. I wasn’t following it much after 2008 but read stuff in passing on other blogs where it was mentioned.

That blog is a perfect example of what censoring leads to. Nada. They became their own audience. They did the whole thought police shitck well. It was sort of a joke in the blogging world as the “Reformed insulter place”. Like the Luther insulter which is what they sounded like. A lot like Doug Wilson, too. Need a good insult or verbal spanking? Go disagree with anything at Pyro. They chewed you up and spit you out. Also home of the phrases such as “blogging divas” and the “monstrous regiment of women bloggers”. Women bloggers really wore them out. Hee hee.

okrapod wrote:

One of the old theories as to why that is-why women buy into the claim that men cannot control themselves, is that this allows women to go ahead and indulge in forbidden sexual activity (oh mercy me I must have let him go too far-innocently of course) and then blame it on the men while at the same time the men are excused since they have the can’t help its built into their biology. And that is/was/used to be one of the secular psych theories. It was said to be a way in which people in a sexually repressive society could go ahead and be, well, less repressed and still feel guilt free.

Interesting. I can see that. But it’s also seems like a convenient “Get Out of Jail Free” card with a male judge when it comes to rape. Though it often seems like many of the people around me use blame as an excuse for everything they do.

kin wrote:

I was friends many moons ago with one pastor that was very tight with the Chantry clan, though he was not in PA.

Banner of Truth was really big among the Baptist YRR True Believers before Piper became the face of the movement. I first ran into the BoT neo-Puritan True Believers in P&R circles back in the 70’s. So I was a little discombobulated to discover them popping up in Baptist circles in the early 2000’s. It would not surprise me that someone coming from a Banner of Truth or ARBCA environment could react in such an unhinged manner about something that touches a core issue. I certainly come off the hinges when somebody touches my core issues.

Gram3 wrote:

It would not surprise me that someone coming from a Banner of Truth or ARBCA environment could react in such an unhinged manner about something that touches a core issue. I certainly come off the hinges when somebody touches my core issues.

Is the core issue with these guys complimentarianism (?), Patriarchy, or the issue of sexual abuse of children? I guess I’m confused about what sets them off.

If they just get their undies in a bundle because they are being challenged by women, then it is the weakest and most pathetic display of mental acuity I have ever seen. I mean, really. I was always taught that your ideas ought to be able to stand up under scrutiny, and if they don’t, then you don’t have any ideas. You (generic you) have nothing to offer anyone. Why would anyone follow these guys then?

Lea wrote:

I do wonder how much being female affects the reactions from this type of person. It seems like it can’t not, but I don’t know how to do a proper trial. Are the male watch blogger types of similar stature getting the same results? Are there any male watch blogger types with comparable reach?

I was asking something similar in this post from another thread:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/08/14/a-despicable-and-cowardly-letter-will-delay-our-post-until-tomorrow/#comment-335278

Here is part of what I said in that post:

Maybe I’m off about this, but, I wonder if Deb and Dee were “Doug and Dave” if this letter-mailer would’ve gone this route.

A lot of these complementarian guys view women as big children, and as property of their husbands.

So instead of speaking to the woman one on one as an equal and fellow adult, they will report the woman to her church or husband.

Gram3 wrote:

It fits the behavior I’ve observed from ARBCA people in a close encounter (We’re only doing this to save your soul.)
I think it is because the group is so dead certain they are right.

What we experienced at our most recent former church (not an ARBCA church) is a weak form of this mindset.

That reminds me of a scene from the Sci-Fi movie “Serenity,” in a scene where Mal is talking to the bad guy.

The bad guy is acting out of a religious-type conviction.

The bad guy says to Mal,
“I believe in something greater than myself. A better world. A world without sin.”

Mal replies:
“So me and mine gotta lay down and die… so you can live in your better world?”

(At least the bad guy says he knows he is evil and is a monster.)

You can watch that scene on You Tube here:
A Better World – scene from Serenity Movie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeT7MzDcpeg

Gram3 wrote:

Banner of Truth was really big among the Baptist YRR True Believers before Piper became the face of the movement

I wasn’t deeply involved with the group since I had gotten enough of the flavor as to what made them tick (was before the internet took off), but I do remember Chantry, the Reisinger brothers, and Al Martin were influential in said circles. John Reisinger eventually split and became a voice in NCT, Ernie was more Presby, and, if I remember correctly, Al Martin and Walt were still kingpins in the Reformed Baptist movement.

I’d rank the GRBCA circle at the top of the authoritarian hierarchy, followed closely by MacArthur seminary grad circles, followed closely by a a peculiar flavor of NCT/Reformed Baptist circle in Kentucky and SW VA, then finally a group of NCT churches.

Done with all of them, but not with Jesus. Was sheltered from the voice of women that were in love with Jesus all those years. What a shame.

unepetiteanana wrote:

I can’t be the only one to speculate who this might be, right? FRANKly, there are a lot of TURKeys out there.

I wouldn’t put my money down on F.T. I’ve read enough of what he has written and that letter is not is writing style at all. He is much more proficient in his writing skills than Nobody.

bunny wrote:

My two cents, please do let the police know of this. Anyone who would do what *nobody* did is not in their right mind.

Yes, I agree. He is an ideologue bent on ruining Dee’s reputation. The lengths that he went to in order to do this are quite alarming. He had to meticulously plan every detail with malicious intent.

Kin wrote:

If so, then the letter prob came from the Carisle, Pa area.

Yes, did the snail mail letters have P.O. stamps on them? They should show the city of origin and the date they were mailed.

ishy wrote:

there are many men in this world who are completely delusional in their belief that all women want them.

The Billy Graham Rule is partially predicated upon that very view (that all women find all Christian men attractive, sexy, attractive and would want to boink them if they could).

The other view that BGR is based on (among a few) is that all women (esp. single ones) are harlots.

Shauna wrote:

Daisy I’m dying over here thanks for making me laugh lol. I got some pug stickers

Or, if Dee prefers, rather than send a handwritten wacko note in crayon with pug stickers all over it…

I can send her a nutso digital letter via e-mail using a “Ransom” font.

I refer to something like this (from the “1001 Fonts” site):
Ransom Note Fonts
http://www.1001fonts.com/ransom-note-fonts.html

If you’re going to send someone a bonkers note, you really should go all the way, and get the aesthetics right.

Give them that special touch that says, “I may not be mentally altogether there.”

dee wrote:

Daisy
I would love the crayon letter with the pug stickers so long as there were no slashes through the faces of pugs.ROFL (Tulip says she is not amused.)

Oh no, no, no violence to Pugs at all, not even hinted at.

I really am fond of animals and despise animal abusers.

If I sent you a wacko letter with Pug stickers all over it, I’d do things like print my letter “K’s” and “R’s” backwards and insist I can understand Tulip when she barks.

I might even claim to be a Pug myself, an advanced species of Pug from Planet Puglandia, writing the letter.

dee wrote:

BTW-this proves just how careful we have been with your identity.
This is a good example of how we view confidentiality. For 9 years, we have been tight lipped about the real identity of the GBTC. He is actually a member of Taylor Swift’s girl squad.

So I can scratch Katy Perry off the list of possible GBTC identities.

(Perry is a pop singer who is infamous for disliking and feuding with Swift)

Lowlandseer wrote:

@ Gram3:
Banner of Truth is a reputable publishing company promoting Reformed, Calvinist and Puritan works. They were founded in the U.K., their current headquarters is in Edinburgh and they have an office and distribution warehouse in Carlisle PA. It isn’t right to draw them into this terrible affair. I’d rather stick with Dee’s hunch as to who the perpetrator is.

Banner of Truth may not be involved, but the materials they print were hyper-loved by the hyper-calvinists (some of them, in retrospect, quite frightening in their ideas and ideals) we used to associate with.

@ kin:
I cannot even bring myself to click on any link to any Facebook group whose members named it “The Banner of Truth.”
Extreme Eye Roll.

With a name like that, they probably think they’re the final arbiters of all that is godly, good, and pure.

Reminds me of those really old discernment sites I used to visit over a decade ago, run by a guy or two who would name everyone in Christianity you’ve ever heard of as being false believers and teachers, except for themselves and their grandmothers.

dee wrote:

I wonder if I will get some inquiring and discrete glances in my direction?

I’ll loan you my niqab. Guaranteed to get you some not-so-discrete glances. You will be watched for certain. 🙂

Daisy wrote:

I finished scrolling down through the Exhibits pictured, and Letter Writing Guy, I am not seeing what the problem is.

Yeah, me too, Daisy. I think he’s saying that he, uh, doesn’t like Dee and doesn’t like that she’s exposing the sins & crimes of others in the church. So he himself feels led to expose the sins of someone in the church, namely Dee. Is there an irony here?

And what exactly is “advocating victimhood?”

Daisy wrote:

@ kin:
I cannot even bring myself to click on any link to any Facebook group whose members named it “The Banner of Truth.”

Extreme Eye Roll.

With a name like that, they probably think they’re the final arbiters of all that is godly, good, and pure.

My writing partner once told me about the SCARIEST Reconstructionist site he ever encountered on the Web. It’s name? “GOD HATH SAID”.

Darlene wrote:

Are there male watch bloggers who have been maligned and threatened like the Deebs? I’m speaking here specifically about the Christian bloggers. I don’t know one way or the other but it would be interesting to know.

I know of some Christian journalists and editorialists that have been, but not bloggers. I am not sure if Nate Sparks has or not, but I think if he had, it would be over his political views and not his posts on abuse in the church (which he does do). It would be interesting to know.

As someone pointed out earlier, Pyro did make a point of talking specifically about “evil” women bloggers, even though some of the male bloggers have been just as pointed in their discussions of that group. As someone who has been stalked, I do believe men think they can get away with it with women where they would not with men. And maybe women are more likely not to confront it or try to make peace.

ishy wrote:

As someone who has been stalked, I do believe men think they can get away with it with women where they would not with men. And maybe women are more likely not to confront it or try to make peace.

Yes. Example:
Biker whose long hair makes him look like a ‘big girl’ under his helmet warns women of the dangers of sexist road rage, revealing he is often harassed – and even threatened -by men who think he is female
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3427022/Biker-long-hair-makes-look-like-big-girl-helmet-warns-women-dangers-sexist-road-rage-revealing-harassed-threatened-men-think-female.html

If this is the same story as what I read years ago – male drivers will threaten this motorcycle guy so long as they assume he, the biker, is a woman.
(He has long hair under a feminine style helmet)

The moment he takes off his helmet to confront the angry male drivers (so they see he is a man), they pipe down.

dee wrote:

Thank you all for your love and support. Think of me going to church this weekend. I wonder if I will get some inquiring and discrete glances in my direction? My husband is on call so he won’t be able to attend with me.I will be lying low in the back pew. I am considering wearing a hat like this. It will be sure to clinch my new reputation as someone to watch but not approach.
http://www.coolibar.com/product/Ultra-Sport-Hat/158013.uts
[GBTC: Cleaned up the link]

LoL! Thanks for the laugh, Dee. Or perhaps you could wear an Elvis wig and sun glasses.
Like this:
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTAwWDQzOA==/z/POEAAMXQVERS-pu6/$_3.JPG?set_id=2

Lydia wrote:

I have one from Afghanistan.

Perfect! This could be symbolic of what Nobody hoped to accomplish.

Lydia wrote:

@ Lea:
I read Iain Murrays (BoT founder) book, Evangelicalism Divided, back when researching Reformed and it was basically how Billy Graham and one of his mentors ruined Evangelicalism. There is a real disgust over anything approaching free will, decision making, etc.
I always wonder how people who are totally committed to that sort of doctrine deal with it internally when one of their gurus turns out to be a complete fraud. And I think that is why they get so angry when it is discussed. It’s a real internal conflict because God chose them and humans have no part in the process. They aren’t antinomians which is how some Reformed deal with it. In my world, I can just say, I was conned and go from there.

Lydia, when one actually thinks about it rationally, it makes no sense. Their strict views on opposing free will and decision-making put them in a bind. If Monergism is true, and God makes all of the decisions, and free will is virtually null and void, then Billy Graham could only be what GOD decided for him to be. Billy Graham had absolutely no choice in the matter to be a preacher who believes in Free Will and Decision Making. So why get mad at Billy Graham’s preaching?

Maybe Mr. Nobody could connect with my buddy “A Long-Time Parishioner,” LOL. They could have a competition to see who can tell the tallest tales.

All kidding aside, someone really is messed up when they think that lying in order to try to hurt or discredit someone is acceptable. I don’t view God as vengeful, but to the extent he or she is, folks like this surely have it coming.

dee wrote:

@ A.Tumbleweed:
I am pretty convinced that this is coming from inside the Tom Chantry camp which appears to me to be incredibly small and very, very stern-hellfire and such. So, is ti possible? Of course. I am considering discussing this situation with the prosecutor in the case so they are aware.

Sounds like ‘nobody’ is ‘nobodies’ . Shades of Pajama Pages. The amount of research that went into this action is concerning. File a complaint with law enforcement. Forgiveness doesn’t equal getting kicked in the pants. You can forgive and still prosecute. They won’t do it again.

Daisy wrote:

With a name like that, they probably think they’re the final arbiters of all that is godly, good, and pure.

Yes, indeed. Myopic with a total lack of wanting perspective outside their circles. Control freaks galore. Having said that, I found a few good people in that BAD system.

dee wrote:

I am pretty convinced that this is coming from inside the Tom Chantry camp

Tom Chantry was a favorite of the Founders Ministries, who for years have conducted a “Quiet Revolution” to Calvinize the Southern Baptist denomination. Nobody may be somebody within their ranks. The Founders are also rather fond of Al Mohler, another person named in Nobody’s letter.

Darlene wrote:

Isn’t James White of Alpha & Omega Ministries an ARBCA member?

His church, Phoenix Reformed Baptist, is not affiliated with the ARBCA, but the church is briefly profiled in Tom Chantry’s book “Holding Communion Together: The Reformed Baptists, the First Fifty Years.”

The book does not mention the fact that James White’s church was founded by a Bob Jones University grad. Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church resulted from a church split in Phoenix’s fundamentalist Heart to Heart Chapel led by an assistant pastor enamored with Calvinism.

Max wrote:

The Founders are also rather fond of Al Mohler, another person named in Nobody’s letter.

My instinct when I read the letter and Exhibits is that this is a young man who trusts these men and the doctrines they have taught. Exposure by men of the flaws of his heroes is bad enough. Exposure by women is unbearable.

Gram3 wrote:

My instinct when I read the letter and Exhibits is that this is a young man who trusts these men and the doctrines they have taught.

New Calvinism is all about indoctrinating Generations X, Y, and Z for the church of tomorrow. The movement is aggressive and militant; its leaders are arrogant and strategic. The new reformation is a cult of personality characterized by leaders who are icons and followers who idolize them. It’s all about influencers and those who have been influenced. Nobody is a victim of sorts.

Daisy wrote:

The guy didn’t offer up proof where Dee and Deb had been wrong, as he was claiming.

True.
So,…Nevertheless, she persisted.
(Or, they persisted.)

Darlene wrote:

Isn’t James White of Alpha & Omega Ministries an ARBCA member?

Hmm I like a mystery and I’ve come up with a Nobody suspect who happens to be fond of White on Twitter. Also of Tony Miano and Chuck O’Neal. Not the direct tie in we might expect, and nobody 🙂 will have heard of him. If I’m correct, which of course I’m not, the mail will be from Illinois or Iowa and his first name will start with M.

My former preacher, from the south, used to have a saying, “If you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the one that gets hit yelps”. He applied it to reactions to sermons, etc. IIRC, he used it once in a small group and one person angrily asked, ” Are you calling me a dog!?!” (Head slap)

@ Lowlandseer:
I thought W. Chantry was editor of their magazine in the states?

An Attorney wrote:

dee wrote:
The group surrounding Tom Chantry is quite small and very insulated. I would not be surprised if those people know who did this. If they do, the are morally obligated to deal with this.
//
You assume a lot about their morality!

Could they be legally obligated? (Asking honestly, not sure how that works…)

Lydia wrote:

@ Lowlandseer:
I thought W. Chantry was editor of their magazine in the states?

Certainly was. https://banneroftruth.org/us/about/banner-authors/walter-j-chantry/

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

afraid he will be one of the next subjects of a TWW post

A preemptive strike perhaps. If so, what Nobody had feared has come upon him …he is the subject of a TWW post! (sort of)

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

I have wondered if it is one of those men, and that man has a secret that he is afraid will be exposed. Maybe he committed adultery, maybe he is an alcoholic …….. whatever he has done, is is afraid he will be one of the next subjects of a TWW post.

Two of them have already been covered by watch bloggers, though one was not on TWW. Nate Sparks dismantled the other. Nate’s article caused him to quit the internet, of which he believed was his primary platform. I think it is just as likely that the one arrested is a suspect here as is his buddy. And the focus on sexual abuse cases in the letter makes me think that even more.

ishy wrote:

An Attorney wrote:
dee wrote:
The group surrounding Tom Chantry is quite small and very insulated. I would not be surprised if those people know who did this. If they do, the are morally obligated to deal with this.
//
You assume a lot about their morality!
Could they be legally obligated? (Asking honestly, not sure how that works…)

likely difficult unless they knew about it in some detail prior to mailing or actively participated.

@ A.Tumbleweed:
The eclipse? 🙂

I agree with those who have encouraged you to report this to law enforcement. If stalking and harassing behavior continues or escalates, it will be useful to have an official record of this.

While I strongly disagree with the content of the letter, I am much, much more concerned by the research and time that went into learning about your church, your community involvement, your husband’s work, and contact information for all of the people associated with those organizations. This is stalking IMO.

kin wrote:

Lydia wrote:

@ Lowlandseer:
I thought W. Chantry was editor of their magazine in the states?

Certainly was. https://banneroftruth.org/us/about/banner-authors/walter-j-chantry/

The guilt by association accusation has merit to discuss but there are concerns. If I remember correctly, the Tom Chantry career timeline brings forth the question, ‘what did his father know and when’. Combine that with the insular thinking and strict determinism of that religious sect. It’s not like none of us have never interacted with people from that sect.

Every teenager has to face “guilt by association” to some degree. It’s the lack of transparency that does it every time. The cover-up instead of dealing with the initial crime/problem right away.

I admit my bias up front concerning that sect. I cannot help but identify it with the beliefs and behaviors of Pyro guys, Sproul and others.

Lydia wrote:

It’s the lack of transparency that does it every time.

Yes, if the writer of this letter had signed his name, like an adult, we wouldn’t have this issue, would we. Instead, he hides.

@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
Total eclipse of the heart!

Gram3 wrote:

My instinct when I read the letter and Exhibits is that this is a young man who trusts these men and the doctrines they have taught. Exposure by men of the flaws of his heroes is bad enough. Exposure by women is unbearable.

Doesn’t that remind you of the rage-on-a-hair trigger of an Arab tribesman every time his HONOR (real or imagined) is slighted in any way? Resulting in Honor Killings, Blood Feuds, Suicide Bombings, etc?

Lea wrote:

@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
Total eclipse of the heart!

“Turn around, Bright Eyes…”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcOxhH8N3Bo
(typo in link last time)

Max wrote:

New Calvinism is all about indoctrinating Generations X, Y, and Z for the church of tomorrow.

“Give me your children and I will make them mine. You will pass away, but they will remain Mine.”
— Adolf Hitler, cult leader

Eric Bonetti wrote:

All kidding aside, someone really is messed up when they think that lying in order to try to hurt or discredit someone is acceptable. I don’t view God as vengeful, but to the extent he or she is, folks like this surely have it coming.

“A fanatic is someone who does what God would do if God only KNEW what was REALLY going on.”

Regarding the discussion of Banner of Truth and guilt versus guilt by association…

Point 1 of 2 (taking a page out of Nick’s book, hope he doesn’t mind): Tarring BoT with the same brush as an adulterer, an accused pedophile, and someone who has been accused of covering up abuse might be like saying an athletic shoe company supports whatever ills are exhibited by the athletes who endorse their products. Or to go further, like saying the company endorses terrorism if extremists who drive vans into crowds are wearing their brand of shoes at the time.

Ridiculous, right?

Point 2 of 2: It is years since we burned/pulped all of the books on our shelves that we’d been given by or purchased through the former church, including a portion with the BoT imprint. So I don’t have any to go back and look through.

Can someone here who is familiar with BoT materials tell me, do their books talk about the love of God, or are they more the Marvel Avengers’ “Ant, meet boot!” version of God that our former church taught.

Point 3 of 2: I ask this about BoT’s “bent” because their books are well-loved by the kind of people who systematically extinguished our children’s (and my) faith in a loving, caring God. (I say “systematically” as a nod to their love of systematic theology.)

Yeah, I know, could be just guilt by association.

ishy wrote:

Daisy wrote:

Reminds me of those really old discernment sites I used to visit over a decade ago, run by a guy or two who would name everyone in Christianity you’ve ever heard of as being false believers and teachers, except for themselves and their grandmothers.

I knew one of those guys in college. His site is actually still up (and in the same awful early 90s giant colored text on black style), but it seems to be run by somebody else now.
That guy married and cheated on two women before he got out of college. And still thought he should be a pastor…

I came across these things at about the same time. They are, as Law Prof observed, characterised by shouty capitals, and out-of-context quotes both from scripture and from the writings of whoever they were targeting. They weren’t all blogs, either – some of them managed to publish books – but more often than not they were dying in a ditch over some secondary doctrine. It’s hard to be surprised by Ishy’s experience of one of them IRL; someone who fancied himself as a pastor despite having no character qualifications for the role.

All of them, though, claim to have some form of “spiritual discernment”. Deebs have never, in all the time I’ve been a Wartburger, claimed to have any special gift of discernment. Nor do they denounce, as heretics and non-Christians, people with whom they disagree theologically. TWW was set up, not to promote a doctrinal shibboleth, but to provide a voice to the voiceless people who were – and are – being exploited and oppressed in the very same religious institutions that claim to represent the God who defends the fatherless and the widow. Worse than that; it is evident that many are oppressed, not just in, but by, those institutions.

As the church becomes more and more enamoured of corporate success and profit, and more and more careless about the deceitfulness of riches (as one wounded and embittered 1st-century Galilean carpenter put it), the various para-church congregations and denominations should be grateful for the existence blogs like TWW. Who else is going to be able to shed any light on their behaviour?

Daisy wrote:

Biker whose long hair makes him look like a ‘big girl’ under his helmet warns women of the dangers of sexist road rage, revealing he is often harassed – and even threatened -by men who think he is female
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3427022/Biker-long-hair-makes-look-like-big-girl-helmet-warns-women-dangers-sexist-road-rage-revealing-harassed-threatened-men-think-female.html

Said biker’s hair & beard style would be high MEN’s fashion in the 17th Century.
Like an English Civil War Cavalier.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Thank you for a decent chuckle this morning.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Law Prof wrote:
Yes, usually utilizing grammar similar to our Nobody letter writer and with a background on their webpage in stark black with multicolored type upon it, frequent use of ALL CAPS, underlines, interjections, etc,
Except for the “stark black with multicolored type upon it”, that sounds so much like the Gospel Tracts I encountered from my time in-country ALL BOLDFACE CAPS AND EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!!!!!!!!
Or the “Send Money Or GOD *WILL* HOLD YOU ACCOUNTABLE!” letters & phone calls I used to get from the more shrill pro-life groups such as American Life League. (Remember the Bork nomination?)

Either they’ve discovered that the methods aren’t terribly effective anymore, and have changed approaches, or I’ve been pretty sheltered of late (I tend to avoid “religious” blogs and websites these days, except for a few watchdog blogs.)

Are they still doing this? I remember it, too. The style is something like, the writer wants to emphasize something so uses italics, but then they write something they perceive as even more urgent and important and they’ve already used italics, so they have to resort to upper-case, and as they go along, even more important and urgent material arises and so they have to underline, and then they underline the uppercase passages, and when they get to underlining italicized uppercase passages (and they’ve used up all the colors in the palate) they will either explode or implode. (In any event, they hit the “publish” button.)

refugee wrote:

Point 3 of 2: I ask this about BoT’s “bent” because their books are well-loved by the kind of people who systematically extinguished our children’s (and my) faith in a loving, caring God.

From my quick peak at the facebook page, they are super fond of puritans. Will be interested to see what other people think.

HUG, I just read the link to the Mercedes Lackey document from 2001. Really??? Death threats for writing fiction according to her own ideas rather than what (some of) her fans want to read?

Taken together with the current topic at TWW, I am wondering once again, is the occurrence of mental illness on the rise? Or is it just more visible with the communication methods available in modern society?

refugee wrote:

I admit, it has been some years since I read any of those “Puritan paperbacks” and a lot of what I read in those days is mercifully blurred in my memory.

Search me. I have a vague memory of having to read Pilgrams Progress as a kid, but that’s about it.

Quote highlighted on their page: “The sight of a man’s own misery and lost estate by nature is a ready way to make him prize Christ highly”

I don’t feel a pressing need to read the puritans.

Lea wrote:

refugee wrote:
I admit, it has been some years since I read any of those “Puritan paperbacks” and a lot of what I read in those days is mercifully blurred in my memory.
Search me. I have a vague memory of having to read Pilgrams Progress as a kid, but that’s about it.
Quote highlighted on their page: “The sight of a man’s own misery and lost estate by nature is a ready way to make him prize Christ highly”
I don’t feel a pressing need to read the puritans.

Nor do I.

Hmmm. Do you suppose there is method in the madness? Perhaps some have taken that Puritan idea to mean if you make people miserable enough (or beat them down enough that they have no self image left at all, because “self-esteem” is an evil humanist psychological concept), they’ll embrace Christ?

@ refugee:
A further thought, incorporating contemplation of mental illness: Are people suffering from depression and/or anxiety more likely to fall into these charlatans’ trap?

I know an awful lot of contented unbelievers who, despite the typical problems and challenges and curveballs life throws at them, feel no need for Christ at all.

I guess they would be considered the unelect.

Lea wrote:

refugee wrote:
I admit, it has been some years since I read any of those “Puritan paperbacks” and a lot of what I read in those days is mercifully blurred in my memory.
Search me. I have a vague memory of having to read Pilgrams Progress as a kid, but that’s about it.
Quote highlighted on their page: “The sight of a man’s own misery and lost estate by nature is a ready way to make him prize Christ highly”
I don’t feel a pressing need to read the puritans.

I had to read the children’s version of , Pilgrims Progress, when I was 8/9?
I still can picture the hideous drawings of some of those characters. The book gave me nightmares.

refugee wrote:

Or does their theology lead logically to depression and anxiety?
Which is it? Chicken? or Egg? or both?

Oh! I get to use my favorite theological answer for this or that questions:

YES.

🙂

Lea wrote:

Lydia wrote:
It’s the lack of transparency that does it every time.
Yes, if the writer of this letter had signed his name, like an adult, we wouldn’t have this issue, would we. Instead, he hides.

For people who claim to follow Jesus, this is not an option, because it’s something that Jesus never did, nor did any of His disciples or followers as recounted in the New Testament. They owned what they did, the hiding in the dark while attempting to destroy someone’s reputation in this manner, as a stalker, lying while pretending to be representing a larger group, doing so in a manner patterned to destroy the person, is just anathema to what Christ taught. It just seems to come straight from hell, no nice way of putting it.

@ Dave A A:
The point being, even if I have the wrong Nobody, Nobody may have no personal fish to fry. He may have seen a tweet by a pastor friend and ended up finding TWW. Not liking what he read, he tried to comment to hold Dee accountable. Failing that, he resorted to more drastic measures so her church or associates might hold her accountable. Failing that, I guess he’ll just need to come out and name his name and further support his case and answer objections– like any good salesperson.

Muff Potter wrote:

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Or the “Send Money Or GOD *WILL* HOLD YOU ACCOUNTABLE!”
Don’t forget STEALING FROM GOD! That one will always put the fear of god inta’ ya’!!

Last time my wife heard that from the pulpit it was 35 years ago from a pastor named Lonnie from the Tampa Bay area—“Yer stealin’ from Gawd if ya don’ give at least 10%!” Quite naturally, Lonnie—a close personal friend of Bennie Hinn—was later caught with hand in cookie jar embezzling from the church.

So the only one stealing from God was the one accusing others of doing it.

Law Prof wrote:

Neither of them understands the meaning of a single one of those scriptures—but they sure have ’em memorized!

I’m always amazed the people in comment sections who read an entire article laying out points about some issue and then they say:

1. You aren’t biblical because you didn’t cite scripture a thousand times or
2. Just cite a bunch of random scripture, about forgiving or something, and act like they proved their case.

Do they have any idea how thin an argument they are making, or rather no argument at all? Do they have any idea you can make a case for something to other Christians assuming they know scripture without just quoting it?

Lea wrote:

I’m always amazed the people in comment sections who read an entire article laying out points about some issue and then they say:
1. You aren’t biblical because you didn’t cite scripture a thousand times or
2. Just cite a bunch of random scripture, about forgiving or something, and act like they proved their case.
Do they have any idea how thin an argument they are making, or rather no argument at all? Do they have any idea you can make a case for something to other Christians assuming they know scripture without just quoting it?

Many of them have been actively taught not to think, not to use logic, not to use the brains that God gave them or even to consider the possibility that a key way in which we’ve been made in the image of God may be that we have the capacity to reason. Some of them take pride in being foolish, ignorant, unthinking, blind—they think it’s godliness.

Jerome wrote:

Darlene wrote:
Isn’t James White of Alpha & Omega Ministries an ARBCA member?
His church, Phoenix Reformed Baptist, is not affiliated with the ARBCA, but the church is briefly profiled in Tom Chantry’s book “Holding Communion Together: The Reformed Baptists, the First Fifty Years.”
The book does not mention the fact that James White’s church was founded by a Bob Jones University grad. Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church resulted from a church split in Phoenix’s fundamentalist Heart to Heart Chapel led by an assistant pastor enamored with Calvinism.

What is with all the schisms within Protestantism? …..And they’ll know we are Christians by our church splits. 😉

Law Prof wrote:

This is related to the crowd who drive the vans with three dozen bumper stickers on back including the one starting with “WARNING: In Case of RAPTURE…” and several dozen hand-painted scriptures (in an unsteady hand) covering all sides of van.

I am reminded of the study that showed that the more bumper stickers a person’s car sported, the more likely the driver was to engage in road rage.

Mae wrote:

I had to read the children’s version of , Pilgrims Progress, when I was 8/9?

I don’t know if this was a children’s version or not. I don’t have fond memories, though.

Gram3 wrote:

My instinct when I read the letter and Exhibits is that this is a young man who trusts these men and the doctrines they have taught. Exposure by men of the flaws of his heroes is bad enough. Exposure by women is unbearable.

I myself was wondering about the letter writer’s age. If he’s over the age of 35, I would be surprised.

@ refugee:
Then it wouldn’t work.

Lowlandseer wrote:

@ Jerome:
I think that was the only time he spoke at a Banner conference as I can’t find any other references to him. They have only one annual conference in the USA.
His father Walter had several paperbacks published over the years, E Resinger two, and Al Martin four (pamphlets).
BoT started in London in the 1950s and you can read about their history here. https://banneroftruth.org/us/about/the-story-of-banner/
BoT can by no means described as New Calvinism which has its roots somewhere else.
Guilt by association is reaching new heights – by zip code, by publishing group.

Lowlandseer, I agree with you that Banner of Truth isn’t New Calvinism, per say. Although Ernest Reisinger did write a book titled A Quiet Revolution, of which I’d wager you already know the subject matter. I’d say that those in the Reisinger Camp were forerunners to New Calvinism. Back in the 90’s I attended a Calvinist church that wanted to pattern itself after John MacArthur’s Grace Community Church. John G. Reisinger, Ernie’s brother, was a guest speaker at my former church on various occasions. They (those who attended this church and embraced Calvinism), were just as adamant that Calvinism is the gospel per Spurgeon’s quote. They just weren’t caustic and belligerent in how they went about achieving their goals to convince others of their beliefs. *As a side note, although I attended that church for a decade, I could not be convinced of the tenets of Reformed theology.*

I’d posit that the methods of A Quiet Revolution were not radical enough for many in the Reformed/Calvinist Camp. Hence, Neo-Calvinism was born! Their revolutionary approach has accomplished goals that those in the Reisinger Camp could only dream of.

Now to Tom Chantry. Back in 2006 I became familiar with the Pyromaniacs blog. Chantry commented on that blog with regularity. He achieved a special status and was treated with respect by the moderators of that blog, Phil Johnson, Frank Turk and Dan Phillips – the Three Amigos as they liked to call themselves. A few times Chantry was even given moderator status. Now, why do I mention this? Because Chantry, although he was connected to Banner of Truth, which wasn’t a New Calvinist entity, did indeed take on New Calvinist traits. He associated himself with some of the most aggressive, arrogant, antagonistic people in the New Calvinist Movement. Chantry’s methods of communication on that blog were just as voracious in dealing with those in opposition to Calvinism as were the Three Amigos.

@ Mae:
I have tried, really tried and cannot get through to the end. That is not a genre I enjoy, either, so that did not help.

@ Darlene:
“A Quiet Revolution” was featured on the SBC Founders blog for free for many years. I sent tons of people to it up until about 5 years ago.

It was absolutely the playbook for church takeovers. It became the MO for SBTS even when Mohler blew past Ascol in influence and position. Chp 4 is basically a primer on how to deceive the people who hired you for Gods glory.

I honestly can’t really separate all those guys out.

Daisy wrote:

He tells his church members if they don’t cough up their ten percent to him, it opens the doors to demons, divorce, job loss, and I forget what all else.

Low blood sugar.

refugee wrote:

Burwell wrote:

Daisy wrote:
He tells his church members if they don’t cough up their ten percent to him, it opens the doors to demons, divorce, job loss, and I forget what all else.
Low blood sugar.

Hangnails and dandruff.
And mosquitos!

Pelvic discomfort…

refugee wrote:

(I say “systematically” as a nod to their love of systematic theology.)

sys·tem·at·ic the·ol·o·gy
1. A way to be systematically wrong with confidence.

@ GuyBehindtheCurtain:
I have suspicions now. How many sisters do you have?

I would conclude that they corrupt the word “love” by saying “The end justifies the mean”. That means for the “greater good”, a local small “sin is justified”.

So they say things like: “I am only doing this local small evil and sin here, in order for greater justices and greater love for more people.”

You can plug in anywhere here. For example Bob abuses his wife but is an important elder in the church. So to keep Bob’s service, the church pastor help him cover up the abuses and forced his wife to keep quiet. The sin (abuse) is justified by the greater good (keeping Bob’s service to the church, donations, reputation of the church, etc).

By this they are also saying that God ALLOWS local small sins for the greater good. And this is perhaps the GREATEST HERESY possible when it comes to God. Because they are saying God’s law only applies SOME of the time in SOME of the situations. So sins are only SITUATIONAL. And of course these times and situations are determined by some ELDERS and PASTORS in their congregation.

Hence when the TIME and SITUATION is RIGHT, go ahead and burn the heretics, allow slavery, napalm bomb little children in Vietnam, abuse your wife/husband, protect the abuser while excommunicating the victim instead, and all other sort of evil and sinful behaviors. All of these sins justified because the elders and pastors said so.

Hence the prophecies from Paul to Timothy comes true. I can even quote ESV here since God said what he said.

2 Timothy 4:3-4

3 For the time is coming when people will NOT endure sound[a] teaching, but having ITCHING ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to SUIT their OWN PASSIONS, 4 and will turn AWAY from listening to the truth and WANDER OFF into MYTHS.

Daisy wrote:

Lea wrote:
I’m always amazed the people in comment sections who read an entire article laying out points about some issue and then they say:
1. You aren’t biblical because you didn’t cite scripture a thousand times or

Sometimes some Christians even do this when and if the author says,
‘I won’t be using a lot of Scripture to make my points here.’
Ruth Tucker did that in her book about domestic abuse and male headship.

And now HUG’s quote comes to mind: “I have a verse! I have a verse!”

This reminds me of a thread on a Calvinist Facebook site that I commented on the other day. The o.p. asked if Christians should celebrate Christmas. In my answer, I didn’t quote from the Bible. Not One.Single.Verse!!! Horrors! A woman in so many words attempted to shame me. Well….HELLO?….there isn’t a verse in the Bible that says we should or should not celebrate Christmas. Not One Single Verse. So why make the Bible say something that it doesn’t?

Darlene wrote:

I suppose I’m remembering the folks who attended my former church that was Calvinist, and it didn’t appear to me that they were as vicious as these New Calvinists. Yes, they were convinced that Calvinism is the correct expression of the Christian faith, and that their interpretation of the Bible was the Right One. But they didn’t trash all other non-Calvinist Christians the way these New Calvinists do.

I don’t think it’s surprising. The Founders and the New Calvinists both have enacted their takeovers by deception and they do as much deceiving of their own YRR as non-Calvinists. So there are a lot of decent people in churches heavily guided by these small groups. A church I used to go to was in that position. They joined up with Acts 29 and 9 Marks for awhile, but when the truth started coming out, they left both. If a pastor wasn’t indoctrinated at SBTS or SEBTS, they probably don’t have the level of indoctrination that came from A Quiet Revolution and it’s more modern counterpart, Revitalize (by Andy Davis). Both seminaries have a class called “Leading Change in the Local Church” (used to be Church Revitalization, straight out of Davis’ book).

This follows along with what I’ve been noticing for awhile that Founders and New Cals don’t talk about Christ’s ministry. Most of their followers haven’t even noticed. And there are sermon services which write sermons for New Cal pastors, so they don’t even interact with the text themselves. The actual level of engagement of Scripture is pretty low, but they push very heavily the idea that reading their theologians is the same thing.

Darlene wrote:

Well….HELLO?….there isn’t a verse in the Bible that says we should or should not celebrate Christmas. Not One Single Verse. So why make the Bible say something that it doesn’t?

Because a Verse (better yet, a LOT of Verses) PROVES that God Is On MY Side.

Daisy wrote:

He tells his church members if they don’t cough up their ten percent to him, it opens the doors to demons, divorce, job loss, and I forget what all else.

Cough up or Pastor Conjure-Man puts his HEX on you.

In both Pennsylvania Dutch lore and Manly Wade Wellman’s weird fiction, you find a lot of Witches and Conjure-Men and Hexen who extort money from victims by threatening to Hex them. Whether by their own magickal powers or by siccing their Familiar Spirit to make an example.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Because a Verse (better yet, a LOT of Verses) PROVES that God Is On MY Side.

I’m going to start making arguments and leaving random unrelated verses on every comment.

For God Says “Come buy wine and milk without money and without price.” Isaiah 55:1

@ Max:
What about Pulpit and Pen? They have a history of going to great lengths to stalk and ruin.

Lydia wrote:

@ Lea:
That’s mine!

I’m kind of sad there aren’t any bible verses about whiskey.

dee wrote:

It looks like the Bible study was spared this nonsense. Did you ever imagine when I said I was starting a blog this would happen???

Well, it’s obvious that YOU DON’T BELIEVE THE BIBLE!!
And you also have a JEZEBEL SPIRIT!!
Filled with rebellion and self will!!

dee wrote:

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
“A fanatic is someone who does what God would do if God only KNEW what was REALLY going on.”

Love it.

I remember hearing that one-line definition long ago, but don’t remember anything about the source.

Lea wrote:

Lydia wrote:
@ Lea:
That’s mine!

I’m kind of sad there aren’t any bible verses about whiskey.

That’s because because the Bible didn’t originate in Ireland.

“God created whisky to keep the Irish from conquering the world.”

@ Muff Potter:
All they had was strong wine and maybe something akin to mead.

@ Muff Potter:
Strong drink is the closest you get.

Lots and lots of wine references! But they were all just grape juice *eyeroll*

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:

It I were to put stickers on my vehicle, not a chance of course, one would say ‘let’s assume I’m right …and move on’ and the other would say ‘I told you so’.

@ Muff Potter:

The immigrant Scots over here in our mountains used to make some stuff, but it is a tad stronger than that. Okay, multiple tads, but who is counting. If you get a chance you ought to take a wee sip just for reasons of cultural diversity. Nasty!

okrapod wrote:

@ Muff Potter:
The immigrant Scots over here in our mountains used to make some stuff, but it is a tad stronger than that. Okay, multiple tads, but who is counting. If you get a chance you ought to take a wee sip just for reasons of cultural diversity. Nasty!

My BIL is from Eastern TN. He brought us some, ‘white lightning’, many moons ago. We held it up to the light, and we could
see particles of something floating around in it. I tried about a half teaspoon of it…..absolutely vile tasting.

Lea wrote:

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Because a Verse (better yet, a LOT of Verses) PROVES that God Is On MY Side.
I’m going to start making arguments and leaving random unrelated verses on every comment.
For God Says “Come buy wine and milk without money and without price.” Isaiah 55:1

The funny thing is, Lea, that woman on the Calvinist Facebook site was quoting all kinds of Scripture that had nothing to do with celebrating (or not celebrating) Christmas. When I called her out on it, she defended herself saying all Scriptures are related to each other. I responded to her: “In that case, Jesus wept” – trying to get her to think rationally. Instead, she retorted, saying that Jesus wept because of people’s rebellion. No, Jesus wept because of the death of His friend, Lazarus.

By the way, that Christmas thread turned into a train wreck of some Calvinist’s using the Regulative Principle to defend celebrating Christmas, while others used the same Regulative Principle to criticize Christians who celebrate Christmas. And then there were those calling people idolaters and the offended firing back with their insults. Believe me, it got ugly. And all because of Christmas. Go figure. 😉

@ okrapod:

Good on you for giving it a, go.
They say when SHTF to have: cigarettes, booze, pot and matches, on hand to trade for eggs and bread, etc.
I haven’t bothered to store such things but the list makes sense.

Mae wrote:

He brought us some, ‘white lightning’, many moons ago.

Legit ‘moonshine’ is kind of a thing now. You can buy it at the store…i think they might have drinks at outback (weirdly).

@ Mae:
Yes, I’m sure it is!

@ roebuck:

I don’t believe I said anything about drinking it. Did I not say disinfectant and fuel?

okrapod wrote:

If you get a chance you ought to take a wee sip just for reasons of cultural diversity. Nasty!

This poor old sod’s sippin’ days are all over. When I was a younger drunk I would have done a helluva-lot-more than a wee nip of the stuff you speak of. I drank for oblivion, like all of us recovering alkies did. Now I’m an old drunk who hasn’t had a drink in 21 years. To do otherwise would be like signing my own death warrant.

@ okrapod:

FWIW I do not like coffee or wine or booze. It is not something religious; I just don’t like them.. I did used to like some beer but gave that up years ago also because of calories. If I wanted to make an alcoholic drink for whatever reason I would look at fermenting some fruit juice, but I don’t see much reason to do it. I also gave up cigarettes in 1964 and I gave up food enough to have a BMI at the lower end of normal.

How boring! But those are good health habits. I would be in great shape had I not sustained a bilateral trapezius strain trying to trim a holly tree with 3X loppers. Pity. All that self discipline only to be felled by a pair of loppers.

@ Muff Potter:

That is good work Muff. Seriously good work.

okrapod wrote:

The immigrant Scots over here in our mountains used to make some stuff, but it is a tad stronger than that.

The Western employees of a certain ME oil company distilled their own 190+ proof concoction. It’s highly illegal in this very conservative country, but that didn’t stop people risking the occasional still explosion to enjoy their libations. One enterprising man started a business here in the US producing the drink of his yourh, though it’s not nearly as strong as the ME version. 🙂

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Because a Verse (better yet, a LOT of Verses) PROVES that God Is On MY Side.

I want the Bible verse for that or no dice.

(see what I did there?) ha ha.

George wrote:

On top of that….. Chantry was charged with a crime!!!! I like reading here and I really think you guys (gals) are simply providing coverage. The reformed snowflakes can’t handle it.

Oh, that whole “crime thing” often gets lost in these discussions and on them. They treat the sexual abuse of a child as if its a mere indiscretion among friends, which really reveals a blackened heart, IMO. It is criminal. It’s not merely “boys being boys”.

Anyone of any theological persuasion should be questioning their adherence to a religion that turns out pastors like that, and that treats criminal activity as lightly as mere roughhousing.

These people ought to be in sackcloth and ashes, but no. They protect each other and pose for holy pictures at conferences.

Makes me sick.

Lea wrote:

I’m going to start making arguments and leaving random unrelated verses on every comment.

Yes, that is very important. Every comment needs to be backed up by an appropriate verse.
“But the wheat and the spelt were not ruined, for they ripen late.” – Ex 9:32

okrapod wrote:

Nick, I am so sorry. I note that nobody referenced as evidence one each reply from Dee to C, LP and me but nothing in a reply from Dee to you.

Thankyou, Okrapod, for your kind words (on both counts). I did momentarily feel a little left out, I must admit.

Maybe I should come up with some kind of bombastic alter-ego to use as a sock-puppet.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

Lea wrote:
I’m kind of sad there aren’t any bible verses about whiskey.

Of course there are:
To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life.

Whisky is derived from the gaelic uisge-beatha which means, of course…

Wonderful! I’m too disconnected from my Scottish heritage to have learned the Gaelic

@ George:
Well put.

Jerome wrote:

I not only described my father’s sin in detail, I also discussed the steps I had taken in order to find healing and peace. Even after hearing my story, my brother James was hostile, defensive, and threatening. He warned me to ‘watch what I said’ about my parents.”

This paragraph is particularly striking to me and emphasizes the need for TWW:

“But the problem with that is that when dysfunction isn’t corrected, it gets passed along. It victimizes the next generation — my generation, and specifically me. It skews every part of the lives of those who come from those who have not dealt with the past. This is definitely true of my brother and me. We are both the product of our distorted, dysfunctional, abuse-ridden upbringing. We bear the scars of that dysfunction, and those scars have no doubt affected our own children.”

Lydia wrote:

Just looked it up. Yikes.

http://branham.org/en/home

(Branham is a prophet of God)

“Serpent Seed” Branham?Darlene wrote:

I responded to her: “In that case, Jesus wept” – trying to get her to think rationally. Instead, she retorted, saying that Jesus wept because of people’s rebellion. No, Jesus wept because of the death of His friend, Lazarus.

But that isn’t SPIRITUAL enough!
How could she Count Coup on you Lukewarm Heathen if that was true?

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I don’t want to know. (Covering ears saying la la la la)

Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

Lea wrote:
I’m going to start making arguments and leaving random unrelated verses on every comment.
Yes, that is very important. Every comment needs to be backed up by an appropriate verse.
“But the wheat and the spelt were not ruined, for they ripen late.” – Ex 9:32

Oh really? Well….

19 The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother’s milk. Exodus 23.

Max wrote:

ishy wrote:
Substance abuse could also affect their style, grammar, and general coherence level.
Icon-worship will do the same thing. Being “under the influence” can also include being severely influenced by influencers within religious movements, leading to cult behavior.

Though I agree, I think none of the current suspects have communicated quite like that six months ago. At least two of the ones I suspect had a much higher level of linear thought, along with better grammar. I think it would take more time for that kind of thing to have an effect.

However, as I wrote earlier, I had a malicious stalker who was known to be fairly erudite. But the stuff he sent to us (with his name on it) was nearly incomprehensible, the point where his defenders used it to say he wasn’t really the one doing it. He admitted later he was abusing various substances during that period, which eroded his inhibition to do something like that and made him completely incoherent.

@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
I should think so! GPS is very important. I just knew there was a verse for it.

Thanks. I wondered.@ Daisy:

P.S.
I’m a professor at a Christian College. When I teach, I habitually refer to your work here as an example of the way God is currently at work, redeeming the world. (If that phrasing had you wondering…yep, that’s an explicitly Reformed context! You help my students see themselves as coworkers with Christ when I teach them about the creation/fall/redemption narrative.)

dee wrote:

@ Jerome:
I have heard about this off and on. I have decided to look into it. Thank you so much.

Though nobody could be a pyromaniac fan, I’m more inclined toward a fan of James White — no direct connection but interested in getting miscreants like you “disciplined”.

@ Law Prof:
Maybe you could email Dee & Deb and have them exchange your addresses?