Red Flags in the SBC’s Resolution Addressing Mental Health Challenges

"Opponents said the amendments [to the SBC resolution] reduced mental illness to a solely spiritual issue. Following such suggestions to their logical conclusion, messenger Bob Cleveland of Pelham, Ala., said would make Southern Baptists like Christian Scientists when it comes to mental health."

SBC pastor preaches mental health

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=4031&picture=holy-bible&large=1Holy Bible

While we applaud Ronnie Floyd’s effort to address mental health challenges affecting Southern Baptists, we are concerned about a few red flags in the resolution that was adopted.  In case you missed Floyd's motion, he published it on his blog in this post – Mental Health Challenges and the Response of the Southern Baptist Convention.  Floyd's motion ended with this admonition:

"Now it is time that we do as great of a job in our churches and our communities, demonstrating compassion in the emotional rubble that can be piled high in the people and their families who deal with mental health challenges. It is time NOW that the Southern Baptist Convention is on the FRONT LINES of the mental health challenges.

Therefore, I call upon the Southern Baptist Convention to rise up with compassion, letting America and the world know that we will be there to walk with them, minister to them, and encourage them in the mental health challenge that plagues their lives and traps their families from the needed love and support they long for from the body of Christ."

What did Floyd mean by the SBC being on the FRONT LINES of the mental health challenges?  And how do we identify those challenges?  Should Southern Baptists be putting schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder, and autism, for example, under the same mental health umbrella?  If Southern Baptists have had difficulty in the past addressing these mental health issues, lumping them together could be a major misstep.

Furthermore, we are extremely concerned about the amendments that were tacked onto the SBC Resolution dealing with mental health challenges.  Here is how those amendments were presented, as explained in an article in the Associated Baptist Press:

"While messengers did ultimately agree with Floyd by approving the resolution, the vote came after several minutes of debate on proposed amendments that sought to promote Scripture as the best source of mental health.

Opponents said the amendments reduced mental illness to a solely spiritual issue. Following such suggestions to their logical conclusion, messenger Bob Cleveland of Pelham, Ala., said would make Southern Baptists like Christian Scientists when it comes to mental health.

Only one of the amendments was approved – and with overwhelming support. Introduced by South Carolina messenger Steven Owensby, it added language encouraging churches to provide “godly, biblical counsel” for people with serious mental disorders.

Owensby told ABPnews his intent was to remind pastors they must be part of members’ psychological recovery, just as they must be available during physical health challenges.

'I know there are body problems and there are soul problems, and I want to make sure we’re focused on both of those,' said Owensby, pastor of Enoree First Baptist Church.

The resolution approved Wednesday urges Southern Baptists to 'oppose all stigmatization and prejudice' and supports 'the wise use of medical intervention for mental health concerns when appropriate.'

It also expresses support for 'research and treatment of mental health concerns when undertaken in a manner consistent with a biblical worldview.'

Lastly, it calls on 'all Southern Baptists and our churches to look for and create opportunities to love and minister to… those who struggle with mental health concerns.' "

TWO ASPECTS OF THIS RESOLUTION GREATLY TROUBLE US…

(1) Churches are encouraged to provide “godly, biblical counsel” for people with serious mental disorders

Steven Owensby, the pastor who introduced this amendment, appears to be a true believer in Biblical Counseling.  Over the last year he has been pursuing certification in biblical counseling through Redeemer Biblical Counseling Training Institute located in Moore, South Carolina according to his Curriculum Vitae.  Once his certification is completed, he plans to pursue a Doctorate of Ministry in Biblical Counseling at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary.

Furthermore, we believe it's worth noting that Owensby has attended the Together for the Gospel conference in 2010 and 2012 and a 9Marks Weekender in 2011 (according to his C.V.). 

In our attempt to gain an understanding of what Steven Owensby means by "godly, biblical counsel", we found his January 14, 2013 blog post somewhat revealing.  Owensby wrote:

"Dr. [Jay] Adams [founder of the Biblical Counseling movement] seems to make clear that the observations of psychology should find use inside of Biblical Counseling. The conclusions and thus treatments of psychologists which we know as psychiatry deserve only the strident, fair-minded critique of Biblical Counselors. That said, let me quickly make note that while Adams’ position seems clear, far too many Biblical Counselors practically ignore or degrade psychology and psychiatry all together.

To that, I must scream guilty as charged. The greatest benefit of this class occurred as it helped me to chart a way out of the choppy waters of intellectual assent to psychology’s worth, but practical aversion to interaction with psychological knowledge. In essence the class helped me to develop an Apologetic for Biblical Counseling…"

While we're not absolutely certain what Owensby is saying in his post, we believe he means that psychology and psychiatry are inferior to Biblical Counseling; however, we could be wrong.

Perhaps now we have some insight into what he meant by "godly, biblical counsel"…

(2) Southern Baptists were encouraged to show support for “research and treatment of mental health concerns when undertaken in a manner consistent with a biblical worldview”

What if effective treatment methods result from research conducted by atheists or researchers of other faiths?  Do Southern Baptists really want to go down this path?  If so, do they avoid those drugs and treatments that have been proven to be effective in treating serious mental disorders if the 'research is not undertaken in a manner consistent with a biblical worldview'?

What in the world does this amendment mean and where are Southern Baptists to draw the line in this regard? 

One of our loyal readers attended the SBC Annual Meeting in Houston, and he shared the following comment in response to our previous post:

"I was at the meeting and voted against both amendments. Lemke said that the “sufficiency of Scripture” amendment was not appropriate because it ignored the medical aspects of mental illness. But then Lemke received the “biblical counsel” amendment as “friendly.”

I read both of these actions together. If one proposes to a group of sincere Southern Baptists that anyone in any situation should receive godly bibilical counseling, that is going to be warmly received.

Context is everything here. The messengers clearly and correctly perceived that the first suggested amendment was an attempt to deny the medical aspects of mental illness. The messengers were having none of that.

The second suggested amendment may have been trying to achieve the same thing, but was not perceived as such.

In the end, however, one has to go by the actual words of the amended resolution. So, we ended up with something that can be read to mean something that the messengers may not have intended.

This kind of thing happens. It’s regrettable, but it happens.

The people who believe in a “biblical counseling only” type of approach may try to use the Resolution toward their ends, but if the messengers are an indication of the people in the pews, I am hoping those efforts will not go far."

We have been concerned about Biblical Counseling for some time (see links below), and we are troubled by the direction the SBC appears to be moving in with regard to mental health challenges.  

Introduction to Nouthetic (Biblical) Counseling and Its Founder, Dr. Jay E Adams

Frank Page Shares Lessons From His Daughter's Suicide

You Are a Dirty Rotten Sinner; The Schizophrenia Is All in Your Head

Rest assured that the SBC's Resolution Addressing Mental Health Challenges has alerted us that Biblical Counseling is a hot button topic and that it needs to be moved to the front burner here at TWW.  We leave you with this clip which could be likened to a biblical counselor dissin' a psychiatrist who goes through YEARS and YEARS of specialized training. 

Lydia's Corner:  1 Kings 11:1-12:19   Acts 9:1-25   Psalm 131:1-3   Proverbs 17:4-5

Comments

Red Flags in the SBC’s Resolution Addressing Mental Health Challenges — 314 Comments

  1. Brothers,

    I greatly appreciate your reading of my blog. From the preface to my ammendment offered on the floor and my former writings, you have rightly discerned that I do believe “godly biblical counsel” to be superior to any other sort of counseling. I believe this due to the fact that it addresses the eternal soul of a person. Psychology and all it’s fruit address the less important but needful areas of our temporary bodily condition. If you would care to note it, the professor of the class I wrote the blog you reference was none other than Sam Williams who penned the resolution for the convention. I mention this only to let you know I am open to dialogue with you concerning this issue and would welcome the exchange. God Bless!

    Letting the Shepherd Lead,
    Steven R. Owensby

  2. I’ve raised special needs children, one with a major mental illness. And I’m helping raise one with ptsd complicated by being blessed with perfect pitch and exquisitely sensitive hearing. I’ve been through a clinical depression.

    So I’m not a rookie when it comes to helping those with special needs.

    Just a few random thoughts:

    1. We need to recognize both that mental illness has a physical component AND that good Biblical counsel can help a person cope with the symptoms. My depression had a medical trigger unrelated to mental illness, but treatment required stopping some meds, starting another, AND allowing my faith to help me hold on to hope. So in that sense, as long as we are not refusing proper medical treatment, I’m all for good Biblical counsel to help manage symptoms.

    2. Sin CAN be the root of symptoms such as depression. Like the chicken and egg question, sometimes the disease manifests as sin (bi-polar promiscuity for example) and sometimes sin manifests as disease (example drunk driving causing an accident resulting in paralysis.) So a vital part of any form of talk therapy truly IS figuring out what portion, if any, of the suffering is self inflicted. Learning healthy coping mechanisms may require facing and unlearning bad ones.

    3. The world doesn’t revolve around any one person’s special needs. Our little one can’t cope with loud noises, as was referenced re autism in the previous TWW comment stream. There a pulpit pounding preacher was castigated as insensitive for not taking the services in a different direction for the sake of one person.
    UM, no. The local theater is not going to lower the volume for our little one. We can choose not to attend, or be careful which theater and what movie, or help the child choose appropriate sound muffling ear wear. By the same token, a hellfire and brimstone preacher, or in our case loud contemporary Christian music, should not be refused those that benefit from it because one person does not. We simply realized this little one does fine in a quiet Lutheran service rather than a loud Baptist one. Win win for all concerned. It would be totally unfair for us to try and completely makeover the Baptist service instead.

    I’m glad the SBC is at least entertaining the idea major mental illness can be real. I’m hoping those with less than major mental illness mood disorders will find help BOTH in the medical community AND in good Biblical counseling.

  3. SBC appears to be off to a good start; certainly I would be upset with them if they suggested the Bible was NOT the primary source in understanding men and madness.

  4. linda wrote:

    2. Sin CAN be the root of symptoms such as depression

    But usually is not.

    People need to be very, very careful about telling someone with depression or some other issue that he/she must be to blame, or his/her personal sin led him down that path.

    A lot of 12 step programs (e.g., Alcoholics Anonymous) are pretty bad about this, too.

    Teaching personal responsibility is fine, but some of them carry it to the point they blame people for any and all pain in their life and create disciples of this way of thinking (I am related to one).

    You said, The world doesn’t revolve around any one person’s special needs.

    I mostly agree with that, but on a whole, most conservative churches do a hideous job at inclusion, re: married vs. singles, as an example.

    As it stands now, things are lop-sided in the favor of married couples in most churches. Your divorced, never married, and widows are invisible.

  5. said would make Southern Baptists like Christian Scientists when it comes to mental health.”

    I’m glad the original post mentioned that. It was something I was going to bring up on the previous thread, that the way evangelicals, fundamentalists, and Baptists handle mental health is akin to how the Christian Scientists view physical ailments.

  6. linda wrote:

    There a pulpit pounding preacher was castigated as insensitive for not taking the services in a different direction for the sake of one person.
    UM, no. The local theater is not going to lower the volume for our little one. We can choose not to attend, or be careful which theater and what movie, or help the child choose appropriate sound muffling ear wear.

    If you’re referencing my comment on the previous post, our family never asked the pastor to take the services in a different direction. We told him that we would not be attending services there any more due to the fact that the environment upset our son. We NEVER told him to change anything about his service. He then told us that that we were “neglecting our son’s religious education and catering to his whims” by not attending HIS church.

  7. Let us all be cautious when talking about or thinking about human issues, including but not limited to mental illness. If there were anyone or any discipline that had all the answers, then caution would have to yield to information, and we could all espouse the correct/true/comprehensive position and venture forth to heal the hurting and save the world. Would we not? I would certainly give it a try on behalf of humanity.

    It is not that easy.

    Consider, for instance, the the psychiatric community has just now come forth with one more edition of the new and improved DSM in which again some of the old ideas are dropped and some new ideas are advanced as to what does or does not constitute this or that “mental illness.” They have no choice but to continually revise their thinking, because mental health/illness is an area in which comparatively little is actually know, compared to some other fields of medicine.

    Consider also that the general media continues to periodically report the alleged abuse of overprescribing of psychotropic meds, primarily by non-psychiatrist MDs. Think AD/HD.

    Consider the relative success of some twelve step programs which do not qualify as either traditional medical management or religious practice.

    Consider that the professional practitioners of religion cannot even agree with each other about how the average person can gain heaven or avoid hell, (basic stuff), and ask why they should venture into the psych world when they can’t even get it together about their own special field of endeavor. Think: get the beam out of your own visual field.

    So what can be done? I do believe that being kind to one another is biblical. I do believe that being sure that the person with the prescription pad in hand is actually qualified to treat/manage mental issues is absolutely necessary. I do believe that all concerned have to realize the limits of current knowledge and not expect too much too soon. I do believe that allocation of research monies should be done wisely and extensively to help bridge the knowledge gap in this discipline. And I do think that an integrated approach is optimum in which the medical and psychiatric/psychological and social and financial and spiritual (and and and) problems can all be addressed.

    BTW, decades ago when I was on the staff of a large government mental hospital, that is the approach that was taken.

    And for those not directly involved, if “they” know that we are “His” by the way we love each other, let’s give it a shot in that direction.

  8. Lola wrote:

    linda wrote:

    He then told us that that we were “neglecting our son’s religious education and catering to his whims” by not attending HIS church.

    Kinda underestimated your ability as parents to teach your child, didn’t he?

  9. Alonzo “Zo” Thomas wrote:

    I would be upset with them if they suggested the Bible was NOT the primary source in understanding men and madness.

    Could you please clarify this? Do you mean from a spiritual perspective?

    For example, is the Bible the primary source to understand men and cancer? In some respects, yes. It tells us that we live in a fallen world and cancer is one of those consequences. However, the Bible does not tell us how to treat cancer.

    The same goes for schizophrenia and bipolar disease. They are the results of a fallen world. But, the treatment is not outlined in Scripture.

  10. Victorious wrote:

    Kinda underestimated your ability as parents to teach your child, didn’t he?

    Oh, I think he believed that he was the most important event in the child’s weekly life. Isn’t that what the chicks over at GirlTalk have to say?

  11. What did Floyd mean by the SBC being on the FRONT LINES of the mental health challenges?

    Probably rhetoric to convince themselves they’re really doing something. Or whoever wrote the speech didn’t understand the subject all that well.

    And how do we identify those challenges? Should Southern Baptists be putting schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder, and autism, for example, under the same mental health umbrella? If Southern Baptists have had difficulty in the past addressing these mental health issues, lumping them together could be a major misstep.

    Another indication they’re not all that clear on the concept. Maybe they figure they’re all “acting weird” so they’re equivalent.

    Or, as someone in a previous comment thread put it, they’re still coming at it from a Nouthetic/sin-sniffing background and all of these are really the same thing because they’re all to do with the Soul(TM). Which apparently moved from the Heart to the Brain with modern neurology.

  12. dee wrote:

    Victorious wrote:

    Kinda underestimated your ability as parents to teach your child, didn’t he?

    Oh, I think he believed that he was the most important event in the child’s weekly life. Isn’t that what the chicks over at GirlTalk have to say?

    Like Hybels soaking in the adoration of adolescent girls at his church/school singing their hymns to “Boopsie Woopsie”?

  13. What if effective treatment methods result from research conducted by atheists or researchers of other faiths? Do Southern Baptists really want to go down this path? If so, do they avoid those drugs and treatments that have been proven to be effective in treating serious mental disorders if the ‘research is not undertaken in a manner consistent with a biblical worldview’?

    At which point, they can take a seat alongside L Ron Hubbard and Mary Baker Eddy.

  14. Steven R. Owensby wrote:

    you have rightly discerned that I do believe “godly biblical counsel” to be superior to any other sort of counseling

    Well, first we need to get the gender right. Deb and I are women so we prefer to be addressed as sisters. We also respond to “Hey, you.”

    Do you believe the Bible is sufficient to treat schizophrenia and bipolar disease?

  15. Daisy wrote:

    Teaching personal responsibility is fine, but some of them carry it to the point they blame people for any and all pain in their life and create disciples of this way of thinking (I am related to one).

    In other words, they are just as out-of-balance as those who claim “It’s All Society’s Fault, Not Mine!”, just in the other direction. (Which examples hark back to the Fundie Gospel of Personal Salvation and ONLY Personal Salvation as a reaction to the Social Gospel’s Gospel without personal salvation. Communism begets Objectivism.)

    As it stands now, things are lop-sided in the favor of married couples in most churches. Your divorced, never married, and widows are invisible.

    Another example of equally out-of-balance in the opposite direction. Pre-Reformation Catholicism put so much emphasis on celibacy and singleness to the point married couples weren’t really holy; so the Protestants swung hard in the opposite direction. Married or Single Clergy was the Reformation Wars’ answer to the question Whose Side Are You On, and the fallout continues to this day. Again, Communism begets Objectivism.

  16. I have a brother who suffers from severe anxiety. He attends a 9Marks church here in North Carolina that believes nouthetic counseling is superior all other forms of therapy. Recently my brother spoke to the pastor about fearfulness. He was told that it all stemmed from pride! And my brother believes him. I have been helped immensely by psychotherapy and medication for my own issues. Many of these “reformed” churches strongly urge their members to stay away from mental health interventions that could relieve their suffering. Instead, they reinforce the guilt, shame, and hopelessness of those who experience severe emotional pain.Ann

  17. Janey wrote:

    Amy wrote:
    Must see:
    “This is how a real leader addresses abuse.” http://www.zhoag.com/2013/06/14/leader-addresses-abuse/
    Amy — This is fantastic. I hope that the true Christian leaders in this country (and around the world) create videos like this one. This Australian General says it well.

    Janey,
    I just blogged about it: In which the Chief of the Australian Army wins the internet: the standard you walk past is the standard you accept

    http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2013/06/in-which-chief-of-australian-army-wins.html

  18. Ann wrote:

    Instead, they reinforce the guilt, shame, and hopelessness of those who experience severe emotional pain.Ann

    Because guilt, shame, and hopelessness make them easier to control. The first step of forcible indoctrination (commonly called “brainwashing” from Chinese slang) is to break down the mark’s self-image so you can rebuild him in your own image. In this case, the breaking has already been done for you by an anxiety disorder; all that’s needed is to keep him broken.

  19. The one hopeful sign in this whole thing is that they rejected the idea of the sufficiency of scripture to treat mental illness.

    There’s a real double-standard in the strict proponents of nouthetic counseling: The argument is that scripture is utterly sufficient for all of life’s issues, but they only really try to apply this in the realm of emotional, psychological and psychiatric. No one looks to scripture to set a broken limb, fix their plumbing, overcome a bacterial infection, repair their car, teach them how to swim, or any of a million other things that affect our lives, sometimes greatly. What is it with that? Can’t they see how this must look to those of us outside whatever bubble they’re in?

  20. Thank you Dee! Your blog is so key to me! It has helped me at least understand where some of my family’s behavior is coming from. That has been a true gift. Ann

  21. John wrote:

    they only really try to apply this in the realm of emotional, psychological and psychiatric.

    I think that’s because, as someone commented on the previous entry, they have conflated the emotional/psychological/psychiatric with the spiritual, but they would probably not blame an infected fingernail on sin (although I heard such far-fetched things in my time in the IFB). You can argue that the emotional and the spiritual aspects of our inner lives are intertwined, and I would agree to some extent, but to claim that a psychological difficulty is by definition a result of a spiritual failing is, IMHO, absurd. Yet that is the basis for their approach. It makes perfect sense to those within the in-group and they will go to any lengths to impose those beliefs on the depressed, anxious, and other sufferers who turn to them for help.

  22. Every Christian personal family, friend or acquaintance that I have known who has vehemently opposed secular counseling or treatment have been the ones who IMO needed it most.

  23. Ann wrote:

    I have a brother who suffers from severe anxiety. He attends a 9Marks church here in North Carolina that believes nouthetic counseling is superior all other forms of therapy. Recently my brother spoke to the pastor about fearfulness. He was told that it all stemmed from pride! And my brother believes him. I have been helped immensely by psychotherapy and medication for my own issues. Many of these “reformed” churches strongly urge their members to stay away from mental health interventions that could relieve their suffering. Instead, they reinforce the guilt, shame, and hopelessness of those who experience severe emotional pain. Ann

    Ann — One thing I have found for people in controlling churches or religious groups is to tell your loved one that you trust his/her judgment and that you are confident the Holy Spirit will lead him/her in the right way. This is something those leaders will *never* say. Heavy-handed leaders want to put you down and keep you down.

    I had a friend who got into an authoritarian campus group at the university. I told her my concerns and said that the Lord would help her leave when the timing was right. Sure enough a few months later she came to me and we worked out an escape plan, so that she could withstand their pressure tactics. Later we looked up their church affiliation and discovered the leaders attended a 9 Marks church.

    My friend has moved. She looked at the 9Marks Church list online before she selected her church. They are easy to research at: http://www.9marks.org/churchsearch/searchmap.php

  24. Ann wrote:

    Recently my brother spoke to the pastor about fearfulness. He was told that it all stemmed from pride!

    I’d like to know how the pastor defended that since the connection is not self evident.

  25. Daisy wrote:

    2. Sin CAN be the root of symptoms such as depression

    But usually is not.

    What do you cite in support of this? How do we know this?

  26. Steve and Alonzo,

    I am curious as to what the Bible says about a lot of medical conditions of the brain. For instance, I have a loved one who literally does not make the chemicals necessary to not be depressed. This loved one has to take antidepressants every single day and be under the care of a psychiatrist for the rest of their life. Would a Biblical counselor truly be a superior option? What about all of the researchers who have discovered the link between gluten and several disorders of the brain (including many listed in the DSM)? Many autistic children and adults benefit from a gluten-free/casein-free diet. Does the Bible explicitly say “if you avoid wheat, some of your symptoms will be more easily managed”? I don’t think so. After all, in Ezekiel 4:9 we read “Take wheat and barley, beans and lentils, millet and spelt; put them in a storage jar and use them to make bread for yourself. You are to eat it during the 390 days you lie on your side.” Did you know that wheat gluten has been linked to disorders such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, depression and even Alzheimer’s Disease? That doesn’t even include the correlations between celiac disease (a form of gluten intolerance) and infertility, arthritis, anxiety, irritable bowel syndrome, osteoporosis,diabetes, psoriasis etc… There are over 200 conditions linked to wheat consumption, many of which include mental disorders. And yet we go back to Ezekiel 4:9 and see that we are told to consume wheat. I for one am very grateful for the secular non-Biblical counselors and scientists and doctors who have done this research and dare to counsel others with sources beyond the Bible. It saved my life.

    My point in all of this is that the Bible is meant to be a tool in drawing us closer to God. It was never meant to be “the primary source in understanding men and madness.” Nobody truly understands mankind to the fullest depths, including the authors of scripture. Only God does. But every day He grants us the ability to learn a little more about how to help those who are suffering from afflictions.

    To anybody who wishes to defend the superiority of the Bible in all forms of counseling, I have a favor to ask of you. Meet people who have benefited from non-Biblical counseling, including psychiatrists. Anybody. Meet with doctors and nurses who work with these patients. Bring your Bible along but do not open it. Simply ask them to tell you their stories and listen. Your heart will be broken. I have done this many times and each time I walk away humbled by how much I do not know. All I can do is hug someone and remind them that they are loved and they have value and thank them for being brave enough to talk about their struggles.

  27. Hmm….in my own experience, one of the reasons a lot of Christian(TM) leaders are against counseling is because of the narcissism issue. Narcissists will decry psychologists, therapists, psychiatrists and counselors as ungodly, deceitful, dangerous and unnecessary because they must avoid these professionals at all costs. These are the people most equipped to unmask them or teach you how to see through them. For the narcissist, anyone who does not acknowledge their god-like knowledge and understanding is the enemy to be crushed.

    Sadly, there are many narcissists in pulpits. It attracts them. Christians are so easily deceived by labels and outward professions. I know first hand how we train each other to believe the man-of-god is infallible (except for a few allowable little quirks that show he’s human). But always the benefit of the doubt, even if it drives us into crazy-making situations. Narcissists are master manipulators and actors. And they do NOT want any of their followers (narcissistic supply) going to counseling and getting wise to them.

    My mother got very bizarre when I finally told her I was going to go to a therapist. First, I told her instead of asking. Totally out of line. She tried hard – using all the old religious scare tactics – to change my mind or at least undermine the effectiveness – she even went so far as to warn me that the therapist (whom she did not know or even know her name) WOULD try to deceive me into accusing someone who was innocent. That has become such a transparent move to me, now….

    Anyway, I’ll quit rambling. Just wanted to throw in that this is an element behind the general religious teaching against counselors….

  28. LT wrote:

    2. Sin CAN be the root of symptoms such as depression

    I’m not sure what part of the quoted thing you are referring to,the person I quoted, who assumes most mental illness is due to sin or to my part, which is, “But usually is not.”

    Where is the Bible verse that says all clinical depression, or a majority of it, is due to personal sin?

  29. The ABP article didn’t mention my follow-on to the Christian Scientist remark. I told the convention it was time we took mental illness out of the shadows, got it on the table, and discussed and treated it without shame.

    Our church has a full-time counseling ministry. I’m not a mental health authority in any way, but I’m the chairman of the “Commission” for our counseling center .. which is very limited in oversight activity because of the confidential nature of their work. But the Director is a close friend of some 20 years now, and I KNOW there are several reasons for the inability to simply hold the Bible as the answer to everybody’s problem.

  30. “Churches are encouraged to provide “godly, biblical counsel” for people with serious mental disorders”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Steven Owensby,

    I take it you don’t have serious mental disorders yourself. If you did and happened to be on the receiving end of godly, biblical counsel, you would have discovered that the bible says as little about treating this illness as it does about treating your computer when it malfunctions.

  31. @ elastigirl: Or how to doctor a horse, repair an internal combustion engine, breast feed, practice crop rotation, fly a plane, pleat and wrap the "skirt" section of a sari, run for political office, make accurate astronomical observations, sterilize surgical instruments, or write The Great American Novel [etc. etc. etc.]…

  32. This is a depressing discussion and reminds me of another reason I bagged the church: failure to understand mental illness as a real illness that can, in a lot of cases, be treated with “evil psych drugs” that can improve one’s quality of life.
    I don’t need someone to tell me to snap out of my problems; I did need someone to tell me it was OK to take medication to deal with my chronic major depression. *That* changed my life.

    And, as I mentioned, my mom is schizophrenic. We went through a bad patch at the beginning of this year, when her $%^&$#!@!! insurance company INSISTED she had to try a much less expensive anti-psychotic medication. She’d been on it before, it had not worked, but the insurance company put the family through a really bad time for weeks because of their desire to save money. So yeah, we had to go through watching my mom slide down almost to a psychotic break for the benefit of the insurance company. FINALLY we were able to get them to pay attention and pay for the more expensive drug. It was such a relief to get my mother back but there were days when I wanted to go down to the insurance company’s HQ and yell at a few people at the callousness of these kinds of decisions. (This is why I’m glad my younger brother handles this stuff, because he can deal more calmly with it. Me, I’d yell.)

    My point is that evil psych drugs are not to be scorned; they are a tool to help people suffering from mental illness. I’m tired of the “difference” between mental illness and physical illness; as far as I am concerned, it’s illness, some of it can be treated with medication, and that can definitely improve people’s quality of life. And, to be blunt, if someone is suffering from a depression so dark that death appears preferable, wouldn’t you try all the tools in the toolbox rather than scorning one because it doesn’t agree with your biblical world view?

    And, to be honest, I am trying to figure out where it says in the Bible not to take medication like antidepressants or anti-psychotics (I don’t think it’s there). I think, rather, it’s a belief wrapped up in ideas about sin that fail to take into account the biological basis of a lot of “mental” illness. There’s a fear that taking antidepressants will somehow allow the person taking them to escape from the consequences of sin. Seriously, though, wouldn’t you rather the person was in their right mind so they could think these things through? I get the impression there are more than a few professional religious types who prefer sick church members because they’re easier to control. *shakes head*

  33. MENTAL HEALTH AND SCRIPTURE:
    SCRIPTURE ALONE:
    1) TELLS US WHY WE ARE HERE AND HOW WE GOT HERE
    2) WARNS US UPFRONT ABOUT OUR BROKEN AND DAMAGED CONDITION
    3) PROMISES GRACE TO DEAL WITH HURTS, ABUSES, SORROWS AND SADNESS
    4) LAYS OUT THE PRINCIPLES FOR GODLY LIVING
    5) PROVIDES WISDOM UPON REQUEST &
    6) PROMISES AN ETERNAL HOPE FOR THOSE WHO TRUST IN HIM

  34. “Godly Biblical counseling” to a person with mental illness is to take them to the best psychiatrist and/or psychologist you can find, encourage them to cooperate with the mental health professional, and monitor whether they are taking the drug in accord with the prescription, as well as whether it seems to be effective. THEN, help them to deal with the other issues in their life that can complicate their medical treatment for the mental illness.

    Discouraging people from getting the mental health treatment they need is SIN on the part of the discourager. It keeps the ill person from treatment that can restore functioning to a level where a person may be able to deal with their spiritual needs, including developing a mature relationship with their Savior.

  35. Jeannette Altes wrote:

    she even went so far as to warn me that the therapist (whom she did not know or even know her name) WOULD try to deceive me into accusing someone who was innocent.

    Hmm, wonder which innocent someone she was worried about? :mrgreen:

  36. @ Alonzo “Zo” Thomas:
    Oy, that’s a lot of yelling so early in the morning.

    You made a list of 6 good points (except wisdom on request). Do they treat/cure cancer? Kidney failure? Multiple sclerosis? Autoimmune disorders? Schizophrenia? Pneumonia?

  37. @ Alonzo “Zo” Thomas:

    Well…none if that passes the so-what test. To someone with real, clinical mental health issues, all you have claimed about scripture effects nothing. There is a physical disconnect between what a person with a mental health issue KNOWS and how they are able to integrate it into their life. By definition, they cannot cleanly apply emotionally what their head might tell them is true.

    Using “sola scriptura” as a starting point for treating psychological problems is a startling indication that many Christians haven’t the first clue what the hell they are doing in this area. They are toxic and dangerous to people who need real help.

  38. @ Southwestern Discomfort:

    Truly, reformed Christians claiming to treat mental health problems is the blind leading the blind. Treating one mental problem by replacing it with another (the failure to integrate reality into world view) is a destructive combination.

  39. lemonaidfizz wrote:

    but they would probably not blame an infected fingernail on sin (although I heard such far-fetched things in my time in the IFB).

    I wish it was only inside the IFB that one would hear such things. I have heard it said by ill informed people in many denominations. This sort of thing is similar to John Piper saying that a tornado struck because some group sinned. John 9:1-3 (NIV) As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus,

  40. Mandy wrote:

    My point in all of this is that the Bible is meant to be a tool in drawing us closer to God. It was never meant to be “the primary source in understanding men and madness.”

    I agree.

  41. elastigirl wrote:

    take it you don’t have serious mental disorders yourself. If you did and happened to be on the receiving end of godly, biblical counsel, you would have discovered that the bible says as little about treating this illness as it does about treating your computer when it malfunctions.

    Ditto

  42. Zo, how does a person “apply these principles, when they are too psychotic, paranoid, or delusional to understand any of these concepts? What if the person is too despondent to care? Most of all, this pedantic approach only adds to the guilt, shame and pain to the suffering. If a person had a ruptured appendix, you would have to remove it before they could even start to listen to any scripture you quote. The pain is too intense and distracting to be able to apply any of these principles. The same with mental illness, once the the sufferer can be mentally and emotionally stabilized (coherent,non-delusional, no longer suicidal), then a sufferer can start to use scripture to support them in their spiritual journey. God loves his suffering children and does not limit the way He uses others to help in the healing process. Ann. Alonzo “Zo” Thomas wrote:

    MENTAL HEALTH AND SCRIPTURE:
    SCRIPTURE ALONE:
    1) TELLS US WHY WE ARE HERE AND HOW WE GOT HERE
    2) WARNS US UPFRONT ABOUT OUR BROKEN AND DAMAGED CONDITION
    3) PROMISES GRACE TO DEAL WITH HURTS, ABUSES, SORROWS AND SADNESS
    4) LAYS OUT THE PRINCIPLES FOR GODLY LIVING
    5) PROVIDES WISDOM UPON REQUEST &
    6) PROMISES AN ETERNAL HOPE FOR THOSE WHO TRUST IN HIM

  43. An Attorney wrote:

    Discouraging people from getting the mental health treatment they need is SIN on the part of the discourager.

    It is a sin to do so but these folks will not listen. I was recently told that my blog was sinful by a relatively intelligent person. Why? because I critiqued certain paradigms to which he subscribed. We can be blind when our sacred cows are being pushed around. It often takes a crisis to precipitate an open mind.

  44. LT wrote:

    Daisy wrote:
    2. Sin CAN be the root of symptoms such as depression
    But usually is not.
    What do you cite in support of this? How do we know this?

    Sin can’t be managed by medicine.

    @An Attorney: Thank you for what you wrote–I think you phrased it perfectly.

  45. Limitations:
    Dee, Psychiatry does not “heal” schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, anxiety, depression, autism,etc., – doesn’t really “heal” anything at all.

    They will give you medicines; that’s actually all they do these days.
    The medicine may or may not alleviate some symptoms, or they may alleviate some symptoms and create others. They probably won’t kill you, but they could. The doctor’s “scientific” approach is, “Let’s try this. Maybe it will help.”

    I don’t envy psychiatrists actually. Would hate to be one. Basically you are giving bandaids that can’t really touch the real emotional, psychological and particularly spiritual problems.

  46. Alonzo “Zo” Thomas wrote:

    MENTAL HEALTH AND SCRIPTURE:
    SCRIPTURE ALONE:

    *snipt*

    None of that will do anything for chronic major depression. Let me explain to you what that is. It is a feeling so black you sit at your desk at work and cry but you can’t explain why. It is looking to the future and seeing nothing but blackness. It’s a pain so psychically deep that you want it to end, one way or another. (In my case, I was going to slit my wrists the right way with my nice, sharp, pointy embroidery scissors.) This was not sin, this was a chemically-inspired mental construct that was going to destroy my life more quickly than bingeing out on meth or cocaine.

    And, to make it worse–I had been prescribed medication but had stopped taking it because I felt better. I couldn’t recognize that I was in very bad shape.

    Thankfully, I had a very good friend, a Mormon (oh dear, an awful cultist!) who kept an eye on me and finally talked me into checking myself into a psychiatric hospital. He told me as we were driving over there, “SWD, you have a bad habit of playing things down. THIS TIME, you’re going to tell them everything, including the pointy scissors.”

    And this is not to say that being in the evil psych ward was some sort of picnic. Not hardly. I didn’t want to be there (even though I’d signed myself in), I got a cold and a visit from Aunt Flo the first day I was there, I was being checked every 15 minutes because I was actively suicidal, and because there were no rooms on the depressed wing of the hospital, I was in a locked ward with schizophrenics. And there was nothing to read but romance novels and I hate TV. I was told flatly that if I attempted to sign myself out (per the notices on the wall) the hospital would get a court order to keep me there. Since I had been a lawyer, I knew exactly what that meant.

    I could go on and on…but the end result was that I spent 10 days there and got it through my fat head that I needed to take my medication for the rest of my life. And being consistent with my medication ended the spiral of bouncing from job to job (I’ve been with my current employer 15 years), I get paid quite well for what I do, and my mental life isn’t crowded with “OMG I can’t see more than 30 minutes ahead without a wall of darkness descending.” The evil psychs gave me my life back! I will be D***** if someone preaching Scientology or nouthetic counseling or “it’s in the Bible” or something involving predictions with Tarot cards drags me back to that awful time in my life.

    Again, I’ll repeat, why should you set aside one tool in the toolbox that WORKS because you have some idea it tampers with the conviction of sin? I’d think you’d really want people to be clear-minded so we can understand what you’re trying to say. *shakes head*

  47. Alonzo “Zo” Thomas wrote:

    MENTAL HEALTH AND SCRIPTURE:
    SCRIPTURE ALONE:

    “IT IS WRITTEN! IT IS WRITTEN! IT IS WRITTEN!
    AL’LAH’U AKBAR!!! AL’LAH’U AKBAR!!! AL’LAH’U AKBAR!!!”

    or

    “EES PARTY LINE, COMRADES!!!”

  48. dee wrote:

    I wish it was only inside the IFB that one would hear such things. I have heard it said by ill informed people in many denominations. This sort of thing is similar to John Piper saying that a tornado struck because some group sinned. John 9:1-3 (NIV) As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus,

    And don’t forget that tower collapse in Siloam.

  49. Southwestern Discomfort wrote:

    Again, I’ll repeat, why should you set aside one tool in the toolbox that WORKS because you have some idea it tampers with the conviction of sin?

    But if THEY’re not Convicted of their SIN SIN SIN, how Can *I* be more Righteous and Godly than them?

    “I THANK THEE, LOORD, THAT I AM NOTHING LIKE THAT CRAZY SINNER OVER THERE…”

  50. @ Southwestern Discomfort:

    Thanks for sharing such a painful experience. I am grateful you are able to function due to the help you received and medications that have been prescribed.

    What concerns me about those who appear to be so gung-ho about Nouthetic / Biblical Counseling is that they seem to be primarily Neo-Cals – those who call themselves 'young, restless, and reformed'. So many of them are relatively young with limited life experience.

    It's a scary scenario that may have dire consequences. That's why I was compelled to write this post. There is a huge downside to the kind of counseling they promote, and everyone needs to understand that before agreeing to participate.

    More information will be forthcoming.

  51. Zo

    I disagree that there is no scientific approach involved. There are peer reviewed randomized double blind studies that do show results. The FDA would not allow the medicines to be used without such studies. These studies then continue after approval to clarify efficacy and side effects. This is not a crap shoot.

    Also, are you saying that schizophrenia is a "spiritual" problem?

  52. dee wrote:

    when our sacred cows are being pushed around

    Dee, I live in a dairy farming area, and for whatever reason, the image that flashed through my mind when I read this part of your post was of you standing in a field surrounded by Holsteins (placidly grazing ones) and trying to gently get them to move away from the spot with the good grass.

    Those cowz have minds of their own! 😉

  53. I have suffered from clinical depression my whole adult life, and never got better until I was put on an antidepressant.
    While in a way, I am concerned about the biblical counsel amendment, in a way, I am not. It all depends on the who applies it and how. Biblical counsel, for myself and for anyone else who suffers from a mental illness, will not make us better. However, people with mental illness need biblical counsel as much, and sometimes more, than anyone else. If someone was suffering from a chronic physical disease, say MS, and was going through a health crisis, biblical counsel will help their faith and their spirit. In the same way, biblical counsel will help a person with mental illness when they are going through a crisis.
    We aren’t any different from anyone else with a chronic condition, except ours is mental, not physical. Do not treat us any differently.

  54. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    dee wrote:
    I wish it was only inside the IFB that one would hear such things. I have heard it said by ill informed people in many denominations. This sort of thing is similar to John Piper saying that a tornado struck because some group sinned. John 9:1-3 (NIV) As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus,
    And don’t forget that tower collapse in Siloam.

    I was just thinking of that too.

  55. Patrice wrote:

    @ Alonzo “Zo” Thomas:
    Oy, that’s a lot of yelling so early in the morning.
    You made a list of 6 good points (except wisdom on request). Do they treat/cure cancer? Kidney failure? Multiple sclerosis? Autoimmune disorders? Schizophrenia? Pneumonia?

    Round of applause Patrice. He must have the special Bible edition with all the extra information scribbled in.

    I am also thankful Zo, that you are not a Psychiatrist. You can tell someone lost in schizophrenia or catatonic Bible facts all you want, how much God loves them & what he’s done, but until they are in their right minds (to some degree) & can listen it will make diddly squat difference. On the human level their Psychiatrist may have more to do with them being able to hear & respond to the gospel than their Pastor.

    I am so glad I no longer think that kind of approach has any ‘Biblical’ backing.

  56. “Are you saying schizophrenia is a spiritual problem?” Dee

    Ah, and there in is the rub. Are you 100 percent confident that schizophrenia is NOT a spiritual problem?
    You know, the whole biblical thing about “powers and principalities?”

  57. Alonzo “Zo” Thomas wrote:

    MENTAL HEALTH AND SCRIPTURE:
    SCRIPTURE ALONE:
    1) TELLS US WHY WE ARE HERE AND HOW WE GOT HERE
    2) WARNS US UPFRONT ABOUT OUR BROKEN AND DAMAGED CONDITION
    3) PROMISES GRACE TO DEAL WITH HURTS, ABUSES, SORROWS AND SADNESS
    4) LAYS OUT THE PRINCIPLES FOR GODLY LIVING
    5) PROVIDES WISDOM UPON REQUEST &
    6) PROMISES AN ETERNAL HOPE FOR THOSE WHO TRUST IN HIM

    Reading the above makes me go all kinds of crazy.

    I went to Biblical counseling for months. All the Bible reading, praying, and praise music did not help. It didn’t take away my flashbacks. It didn’t remove the earthquakes I was feeling numerous times a day (I experienced an 8.0 earthquake). It didn’t take away my PTSD. It didn’t remove the panic that set in when I would drive across bridges. It didn’t remove my obsession to know where every exit door was when I’d go to a store or mall. It didn’t help me to sleep at night. I was dying a quick death that could have easily led to suicide and my young children with no mom.

    Biblical counseling only made me angry at God because it felt like God was abandoning me. He wasn’t hearing me and my cries and pleas. He wasn’t answering my prayers and I WAS doing the right things that my biblical counselor and pastor suggested. I highly suspect that a lot of this so-called counseling with the label of “biblical counseling” has caused many to abandon their faith entirely.

    I finally got relief when I went to a Christian psychologist who understood how to treat someone with PTSD. And guess what – – my faith is still intact.

  58. Alonzo "Zo" Thomas wrote:

    “Are you saying schizophrenia is a spiritual problem?” Dee Ah, and there in is the rub. Are you 100 percent confident that schizophrenia is NOT a spiritual problem? You know, the whole biblical thing about “powers and principalities?”

    You are willing to bet that 100% of all schizophrenics are demon possessed? I do not believe that Christians can be demon possessed. So, take a look at this article. http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2011/april/schizophrenic.html

  59. And here is the problem with false ideas like “biblical inerrancy”. They become nothing more than a tool used to tyrannize people’s in service to some subjective absolute. Despotism thrives on this notion. “Zo” will demand that you provide incontrovertible scientific proof for your ideas, while never conceding that he/she needs to do the same. He/she merely points to a book and declares his/her assumptions to be nothing less than divine perfect TRUTH, and as such any opinion he/she holds is the absolute truth. They demand proof and yet never hold themselves to the same standards. When you call out their hypocrisy, they tell you you can’t understand because you are depraved, or that you aren’t saved, or they banish you or burn you at the stake. The circular logic goes: it’s true because its in the bible; its in the bible so it’s true. That is the full sum and substance of their argument. Any reason or appeal to observable, measurable reality is declared an arrogant attempt to explain God.

    Yes. I can say that 100 percent, clinical schizophrenia is not a spiritual problem. You have no idea what you are talking about. False claims of infallibility do not give your rational larceny a get-out-of-jail-free card.

  60. I haven’t as of yet read through every new comment to this thread since I last visited it. I might do that later. 🙂

    @ Alonzo “Zo” Thomas:

    Medications didn’t work for me, but they do work for some people, so IMO, they should not be discouraged.

    Reading books and blogs by mostly secular psychiatrists (and about two Christian psychiatrists) did help me conquer much (not 100%, but much) of my problems.

    Bible reading, having faith, and prayer, asking God, “did I do some sin to bring this on, if so, tell me what, and I will repent,” did not bring me comfort, peace, or healing.

    Ironically, it was a lot of Christian teachings on depression and other topics kept me stuck in the cycle of depression and anxiety for many years.

    I still battle with anxiety a little, but it doesn’t seem as severe as before.

    I’m pretty much over the depression, which was, in hindsight, caused by codependency (which is a faulty way of dealing with people).

    A lot of Christians who reject psychiatry, medications, etc, will ridicule the notion that there is even such a thing as codependency, and other Christians, actually uphold codependency as being biblical (it is not)!

    Preachers and Christian lay persons encourage people, women in particular, to be codependent.

    (There is a lot of codependency teachings rampant in “biblical gender complementarianism” teaching.)

  61. Southwestern Discomfort wrote:

    There’s a fear that taking antidepressants will somehow allow the person taking them to escape from the consequences of sin. Seriously, though, wouldn’t you rather the person was in their right mind so they could think these things through? I get the impression there are more than a few professional religious types who prefer sick church members because they’re easier to control. *shakes head*

    The funny thing is, for whom it works, anti depressant meds actually allow them to have a clear mind, they are able to resume life.

    It would be easier to hold someone accountable for personal sin if they are on medications which help them to live a normal life.

    Depressed people often times drop out of life, sleep all day, seldom go out.

    Seriously, though, wouldn’t you rather the person was in their right mind so they could think these things through? I get the impression there are more than a few professional religious types who prefer sick church members because they’re easier to control. *shakes head*

    I have seriously wondered this myself, and not just about how some Christians react about mental illness, but other subjects, such as spousal abuse.

    I sometimes get the impression that a rigid adherence to sola scriptura in all areas of life is more important to some Christians than helping people.

    For example, Christian women on blogs who say their preacher kept telling them to return to an abusive spouse again and again. Sometimes, women in these marriages get broken noses, ribs, a lot of emotional damage, or they end up murdered.

    I would rather such a woman divorce the abusive creep and be safe, rebuild her life, enjoy it, than tell her, (due to one’s understanding of the Bible), that she has to continually submit to the jerk, or that divorce is some kind of un-forgivable sin one cannot commit.

    I think some Christians would prefer women in those marriages die or suffer than break free and heal. They’re placing their idea of religious fidelity above the welfare of a human being.

    Same with some Christians and discussions of mental illness/ psychiatry/ psychology. Some would rather they suffer daily or commit suicide than see a proper mental health professional and/or take medication.

  62. Disclaimer: I know nothing about how schizophrenia works. I know nothing to extremely little about how other mental disorders work (Or don’t work? I think that might be more correct…), but I will employ my extremely limited knowledge of the subject here.

    —————————-

    Zo

    100% confidence is not the issue. If there is no one that can make a 100% for sure diagnosis (And I believe most of us agree, such a person and method does not yet exist), then all avenues must be tried until the problem is under control. Notice I don’t say overcome, it is my understanding that mental disorders are never “cured”, simply brought under control. I have never seen nor heard of anyone who “used to be schizophrenic but isn’t anymore” only of people who are and have it under control (or not).

    It is also my understanding (and this has been brought up by others in this thread) that a (or may be the) root cause of some disorders is that their brain simply makes too much, too little, or none at all of a certain essential chemical. When said chemical is introduced or removed through treatment with drugs, it brings this condition under control but will cease to be effective when the drugs are stopped.

    You cannot control this condition with words, any more than you can read the bible to an amputee and have their leg grow back.

    Simply put, at the present there are tried and true ways of treating mental illnesses and disorders, and these tried and true ways do not include biblical counseling. If anything, bible counseling for mental illness has been proven to be quite the opposite of effective in this way, thus the very fact that this SBC resolution exists.

    Certainty in root cause is not the issue, treatment method is.

    In the future we may well discover with certainty that it’s “all in our heads” and that it can be cured by thinking something.

    But it doesn’t look like it’s trending in that direction. It seems to be instead trending toward being a psychical disability like others, although more complex since the organ in disrepair is more complex.

    Consider a person with a burst appendix. Do we say “We can fix that with some biblical counseling”? No, we get a bunch of people with knives and cut it out. We wouldn’t even think of the biblical counseling angle.

    Consider a paraplegic with a broken neck. Do we say “We can fix that with some biblical counseling, and you will walk again”? No! Nobody can fix that.

    And mental illnesses and disorders seem to be heading in their direction, not in the spiritual direction.

    I think we should use what works. And I don’t think God disagrees. Certainly, we can explore new ways, new avenues of treatment. But if those don’t work, then we shouldn’t keep trying to push them in lieu of better options.

    Coming to the table with all the answers already in hand, only prevents you from seeing that you don’t actually have them.

  63. And as far as demons go, well, demons are the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin’s_law]Godwin’s law[/url] of this debate. (And a few others)

  64. @ Southwestern Discomfort:

    I am glad you are doing better. I related to your post. I had depression for over 20-25 years, along with anxiety. I had suicidal thoughts but never acted upon them.

    People who have never suffered from depression firsthand have no clue.

    When you are emotionally hurting that bad for years, you will try anything to get better.

    I did go through a few years where I shied away from seeing doctors or taking medication because I thought using either one was too worldly, showed a lack of faith, etc, but after several more years of suffering, I said forget that. I don’t care anymore where the relief comes from, as long as I get a break.

  65. @ Alonzo “Zo” Thomas:

    I don’t think it matters if it is or is not – you’re wanting to bicker about cause.

    I’m more interested in treatment, as in, what treatment works for schizophrenia, depression, other conditions?

    And Bible reading, trying to blame it on someone’s sin, etc. flat out does not work.

    Even if you are wanting to blame depression on personal failing or sin (I had depression), Bible reading, Bible study, prayer and faith did not help my depression, but actually made it worse in a way.

    Bible study, meditation on verses, prayer, faith, did not heal me or deliver me.

    You totally need to get and read a copy of the book
    Why Do Christians Shoot Their Wounded?: Helping Not Hurting Those with Emotional Difficulties by Dwight L Carlson.

    He’s a Christian psychiatrist and gets in to all the “is medication wrong of sinful,” “should Christians use the Bible only in treatment,” “personal responsibility / sin vs. sickness” etc etc.

    The book is for sale on Barnes and Noble.com and Amazon.

  66. Julie Anne wrote:

    I went to Biblical counseling for months. All the Bible reading, praying, and praise music did not help. It didn’t take away my flashbacks.

    Also, even the Bible says to ‘put the Bible down and do what it says.’ (James 1:22, and I think there is one other verse that conveys the concept.)

    Part of what the Bible prescribes for “treatment” is for Christians to help other Christians (one method of which is to “weep with those who weep.” )

    In other words, it says Christians are to help Christians, people need people in times of crisis, not just Bible reading alone.

    I don’t see where in the Bible it says if you have a mental condition to “read the Bible all day, for months on end.”

    Nor do I see where it instructs, “consult with another believer about your problem, and let him or her quote Bible verses at you all day, and try to figure out what sin you must be in.”
    ——————
    But don’t just listen to God’s word. You must do what it says. Otherwise, you are only fooling yourselves. (James 1:22)

  67. Whoop. Wrong fire. The fish allegedly started the first in South Dakota. I apologize to all fish in Colorado who may have been offended by my earlier post.

  68. Zo,
    First of all , Autism is not a mental illness and no amount of quoting scripture is going to change that. It is a brain disorder.. The people that have it are going through speech therapy , occupational therapy, etc. There are sensory issues, food issues , speech issues , social issues and learning issues that accompany it . Please get educated before you try to diagnose and treat everyone with your opinions.
    I also do think that clinical depression, anxiety disorders etc. are something that you are born with. I can be sitting on the couch doing nothing , having no trigger at all and get a severe anxiety attack. When I watch my diet closely , take what my doc prescribes, get enough sleep and exercise then I can manage it. It will never go away completely and is something I have suffered from my entire life. It runs in my family and I am pretty sure I have OCD. I have tried years and years of so called , ” biblical counseling” and prayer , listening to worship music , speaking the truth out loud , etc, etc. It did not help!!!! It took me further from God because I thought He was punishing me for not having enough faith. It took me going to a crisis clinic because I was so suicidal and could not function before my husband said , ” enough” ! You are getting real help from professionals !!! That’s what I did and I have never back to that severely dark place since. Have I struggled? Yes . Do I still get anxiety and depression ? Yes. But now I know how to deal with it… And I can trust The Lord to get me through it and be with me to comfort me .

  69. Even demon possession is not a “spiritual” issue. It is an affliction. Mitigated by medicine or exorcism, this whole notion of psychological illness as merely another example of man’s depravity and sin (and perpetual need for neo-Reformed “covering”, which pays them quite handsomely in many churches) is further proof that these people speak without any qualification. They can’t even get Christianity right. And that is how they make a living!!

    Absurd.

  70. I believe this exchange has helped shed some light on the potential problems with nouthetic/biblical counseling.

  71. Daisy wrote:

    @ JustSomeGuy:
    You were using BB Code tags for the link; on this blog, you have to use the A HREF tag
    Here’s your link (if I did it correctly):
    Godwin’s Law
    How to make a Link (using A HREF)
    You can also use target=”_blank” in the A HREF tag to make the link open in a new browser window.

    Ah, thank you.

  72. @ Argo:

    Well, that depends on who you listen too. I’ve heard pastors explain text, that include Jesus healing people with demonic (unclean) spirits, by adding (what isn’t in the text) that these people contributed to their current state by their sin. I often hear things added to the text these days. It irritates me to no end!

  73. Dee wrote:

    Alonzo “Zo” Thomas wrote:

    “Are you saying schizophrenia is a spiritual problem?” Dee Ah, and there in is the rub. Are you 100 percent confident that schizophrenia is NOT a spiritual problem? You know, the whole biblical thing about “powers and principalities?”

    You are willing to bet that 100% of all schizophrenics are demon possessed?

    If you’re a poster boy for Carl Sagan’s The Demon-Haunted World, YES. It’s All Done By DEMONS! DEMONS! DEMONS! (SHEEKA-BOOM-BAH! BAM?)

    Just like during the Burning Times, everything from your cow’s milk going sour to a hailstorm damaging your crops was WITCHCRAFT! WITCHCRAFT! WITCHCRAFT!

    If all you have is a Spiritual Warfare hammer, everything looks like a DEMON nail.

    And if a picture on my wall can be DEMON-possessed (as “felt” by a Spiritual Warfare Expert), why not a schizo? DEMONS! DEMONS! DEMONS!

  74. Daisy wrote:

    In other words, it says Christians are to help Christians, people need people in times of crisis, not just Bible reading alone.

    Otherwise you’re no different from a Soviet Political Commissar reciting Marxist-Leninist Dialectic to the Masses.

  75. Alonzo “Zo” Thomas wrote:

    Limitations:
    Dee, Psychiatry does not “heal” schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, anxiety, depression, autism,etc., – doesn’t really “heal” anything at all.
    They will give you medicines; that’s actually all they do these days.
    The medicine may or may not alleviate some symptoms, or they may alleviate some symptoms and create others. They probably won’t kill you, but they could. The doctor’s “scientific” approach is, “Let’s try this. Maybe it will help.”
    I don’t envy psychiatrists actually. Would hate to be one. Basically you are giving bandaids that can’t really touch the real emotional, psychological and particularly spiritual problems.

    Well, first, to the lisy you posted,,,followed that and ended up in a therapist’s office.

    As to them ‘healing’ things, no doctor or therapist of any field heals people. People’s own bodies / minds heals themselves. The doctors / therapists simply provide tools to stimulate and assist that process.

    In my experiewnce, as a survivor of child sexual abuse, the church and its use of scripture did not help me with the emotional / mental damage of my experiences. My therapist has never pushed medication. I have not taken medication this tome around (I did take Prozac for a few months 25 yearsago and it helped immensely at that time to pull me out of the dark place I was in). What I have done with this therapist is face the issues that caused the damage. She has diven me the tools to do that and I am healing.

    You seem to be pushing the religious mantra that anything outside of ‘the bubble’ is evil. Well, I would simply point out the God himself is outside that bubble (He’s inside it, too) and one of those elements of Wisdom that you talk about is realizing there is a great deal more that we don’t know or understand than all the understand accumulated in a lifetime of learning.

  76. Patrice wrote:

    Jeannette Altes wrote:
    she even went so far as to warn me that the therapist (whom she did not know or even know her name) WOULD try to deceive me into accusing someone who was innocent.
    Hmm, wonder which innocent someone she was worried about?

    Hmm…..gee, I’m not sure who she might have been concerned about…. 😉

  77. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    Exactly. It is scary how Marxist neo Calvinism is. The local church is the “collective”. Your individuality is the root of your depravity. You must forsake yourself for the good of the “body”.

    If you do not serve, someone else is forced to do twice as much. A direct quote from a Calvinist pastor I know. Think of what this implies. You only exist as an efficacious life form when serving the collective. Apart from this you aren’t really real. You produce nothing of value outside of the “church”.

    I’m doing a whole series on this. Great, great observations. You are VERY astute. You may not know how right you are, though. LOL

  78. Why are soooooo many christians against treating mental illness the same way you treat physical illness?

  79. nmgirl wrote:

    Why are soooooo many christians against treating mental illness the same way you treat physical illness?

    My opinion:

    Because it deals with people’s brains.

    Because it affects consciousness, and being, and who the person is.

    It makes them uncomfortable. The thought that mere chemical compounds can have such an affect alone… they would rather it be the work of some outside malevolent force (demons) than simply a fact of this broken life.

    They would like to think that our body is just a shell with the brain as the command deck, simply a casing that the spirit or soul can fly free unaffected through the emergency exit should it die. But reality seems to beg to differ, and that makes them uncomfortable.

    It calls into question what they believe about what they are.

    That’s what I think.

    On a side note, I actually think this considered with how the resurrection is described is very interesting… You would think after death God would just have us all be spirit beings, but the resurrection is described as giving us new physical bodies, and a new physical universe. It would seem that God intends for humans and their environment to always exist as a physical, rather than spiritual realm, now and in the beyond.

  80. nmgirl wrote:

    Why are soooooo many christians against treating mental illness the same way you treat physical illness?

    Just a guess, but I think it’s a matter of power and control. The fewer areas where they are “needed” lessens their sense of importance.

  81. @ JustSomeGuy:

    I agree with you greatly. There is really no logical way to consider consciousness apart from the physical body. Consciousness IS difficult to define, I admit. But it would be harder to define apart from the obvious physical/biological origins of it.

    And you are right. Neo-reformed pastors are not qualified (OBVIOUSLY) to speak in any sort of authoritative way about the anatomy and physiology of the body’s most complex and impressive organ: the brain. So, as usual, they simply dismiss it. It is physical, so it isn’t really important. It doesn’t really matter. It isn’t “spiritual”, which is “reality” to them.

    EVERYTHING then is redefined according to their subjective gnostic “truth”. And since they alone are privy to this, the idiots in the pews are slaves to their position of power and wisdom. The laity continue to have no choice but to perpetually finance their “covering”.

    It is a deception. A racket. An extortion of humanity.

    The Calvinist ecclesiasty create the perpetual need and fill it. For a price.

    Convenient.

  82. For the “whitebread world” of Wartburg commentters – Psych meds by race. (Guess which race wins – )

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16278501

    You might think that black folk with their poverty, violence and family issues would be the leaders in psych meds (accounting for financial differences in populations. You’d be wrong. White folks win the psych med race hands down.

  83. And for those of you who think Psychiatrists aren’t influenced by Big Pharm

    http://healthland.time.com/2012/10/05/psychiatrist-contends-the-field-is-committing-professional-suicide/

    The conflicts throughout medicine — not just in psychiatry — are clear. In 2004 alone, pharmaceutical companies spent about $58 billion on marketing, 87% of which was aimed squarely at the roughly 800,000 Americans with the power to prescribe drugs. The money was spent mainly on free drug samples and sales visits to doctors’ offices; studies find that both free samples and sales calls increase prescribing of brand-name drugs and raise medical costs without improving care.

    Read more: http://healthland.time.com/2012/10/05/psychiatrist-contends-the-field-is-committing-professional-suicide/#ixzz2WKX8Touy

  84. DISCLAIMER: I’m not your doctor; don’t you DARE stop any meds you are currently taking based upon comments found on the internet. If you’re concerned about your meds, DO take it up with your prescriber; change docs if you’re not satisfied with what he/she tells you.

  85. @ Alonzo “Zo” Thomas:
    That study did not declare that minorities don’t NEED them, just that they don’t use them as much. Your line of reasoning is flawed.

    Correlation is not causation. Simply because meds might be over prescribed, or under prescribed, does not lead to the conclusion that they are irrelevant, or that psychiatry/psychology are quack professions. Look how antibiotics are over prescribed. Are you suggesting we all become Christian Scientists?

  86. JustSomeGuy wrote:

    It is also my understanding (and this has been brought up by others in this thread) that a (or may be the) root cause of some disorders is that their brain simply makes too much, too little, or none at all of a certain essential chemical. When said chemical is introduced or removed through treatment with drugs, it brings this condition under control but will cease to be effective when the drugs are stopped.

    Yes, this, exactly. I have had issues with low-grade, chronic depression and anxiety for years along with feelings of being overwhelmed at times. When I was finally diagnosed with thyroid disease and given meds, it improved about 50%. Then I had a $138 test which tests the levels of brain neurotransmitters and it showed I was deficient in the neurotransmitter GABA. I began taking over the counter amino acids and am like a new person. I wish people who judge others about mental health issues being a “spiritual” problem could see the data I saw right before my eyes. Funny how a 25-cent capsule of amino acids can solve a “spiritual” problem.

  87. And now I’m becoming concerned that Zo is trolling, rather than acting out of love for his/her fellow christians & human beings…

  88. @ Alonzo “Zo” Thomas:

    Do you read any posts people leave for you, because it seems like you do not.

    I’ve told you at least twice so far that I tried medications, and they did not work for me – but neither did Bible reading, prayer, and faith.

    But reading books by both secular and two Christian psychiatrists did help me.

  89. Zo, reading over your comments in this thread and the other one…

    It seems very clear (to me at least) that you aren’t in this for an actual discussion. You already know everything, and are just trying to show us all how wrong we are. I see you are even starting to descend to name calling.

    Nevermind that you haven’t brought up any examples of biblical counseling working (That I saw, but you need more than just one or two, you’d need a whole lot. One example doesn’t make a rule, only an exception).
    Nevermind that your rhetoric has been directly countered by the personal experiences of at least ten different people in these very threads.

    It doesn’t matter that some secular psychiatrists are crazy. It doesn’t matter that some of them are influenced by big pharma. That doesn’t make the secular approach to treatment the wrong approach. There are crazies and bad people everywhere. As some have pointed out, for every secular nut you bring up, I could counter with two christians who were not only equal but worse.

    It doesn’t affect the validity of what we are saying and that some of us have experienced firsthand.

    You aren’t really doing anything for your case, except making yourself look both silly and arrogant.

    If biblical counseling for this were as effective and indeed superior as you make it out to be, then this thread would be full of “meds destroyed my life, but my dear pastor brought me out of it!” instead of being full of the opposite of that as it is. There would be no denying it, and there would be no argument against it, just as you have been unable to bring any argument against medicine except for LOOK HOW CRAZY THEY ARE LOL.

    You seem to be stuck in a black and white false dichotomy, where one side has to be all right and the other all wrong. But reality doesn’t work that way. Just because biblical counseling doesn’t work for mental illness doesn’t mean it doesn’t work for anything. The fact that it doesn’t work for mental illness by no means besmirches the bible or christianity, at all, any more than the bible being incapable of teaching algebra besmirches it. There are certain things that the bible simply isn’t designed to be directly used for. And it’s a LOT of things.

    Just because you have a bible in hand doesn’t mean you have all knowledge, or even a little of it. No matter how much you think you do.

    And I wouldn’t go down that path if I were you, it leads to dark places.

    Open your mind, and CONSIDER.

    Consider the possibility that you may be a little wrong, and consider why you think you are right. Consider why we think we are right, and you think we are wrong. Consider that you may be approaching with false premises. It saves you a lot of trouble and embarrassment in the long run.

  90. Beakerj wrote:

    And now I’m becoming concerned that Zo is trolling, rather than acting out of love for his/her fellow christians & human beings…

    Yeah I thought about that, but then again I know a few people who really think that way so I’m hesitant to just call him out as a troll.

    But even if he is this conversation may be useful for someone else later once we’ve moved on.

  91. JustSomeGuy wrote:

    Just because you have a bible in hand doesn’t mean you have all knowledge, or even a little of it. No matter how much you think you do.

    That’s true of the Pharisees. Despite all their knowledge of the Scritpures, they still missed the big picture (who the Messiah was, and traits such as mercy and compassion).*

    As far as Zo.

    It’s not that I’m opposed to someone pointing out perceived flaws in their opponent’s side, but making a case against secular psychiatry and/or medications does not necessarily make a case for biblical counseling.

    Even if I jettison all secular counseling and all medications, why should I look to “biblical counseling” for help? Can Zo explain that?

    Also, I’m curious. When Zo gets a headache, does he ever take aspirin or pray it away?

    If Zo gets a stomachache, does he take Pepto Bismol or anything, or just suffer with it ’til it passes, or does he go read the Bible while his belly is cramping?
    —-
    * Jesus speaking to the religious teachers (John Ch 5):
    You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

  92. Daisy wrote:

    It’s not that I’m opposed to someone pointing out perceived flaws in their opponent’s side, but making a case against secular psychiatry and/or medications does not necessarily make a case for biblical counseling.
    Even if I jettison all secular counseling and all medications, why should I look to “biblical counseling” for help? Can Zo explain that?

    Excellent point.

  93. Alonzo “Zo” Thomas wrote:

    Ah, and there in is the rub. Are you 100 percent confident that schizophrenia is NOT a spiritual problem?
    You know, the whole biblical thing about “powers and principalities?”

    *fixes Zo with a beady eye*

    After seeing what my mom went through in the first couple of months this year due to the crass stupidity and cheapness of an insurance company, I can tell you that what absolutely was a game changer was restarting her on the effective medication. It was like a resurrection–it was getting the mom who taught me how to read back. If you’d been there, if you’d seen it, then maybe you wouldn’t be so skeptical about the life-changing impact of “evil psych drugs.”

    However, I sadly suspect that it doesn’t matter what I say, you’re going to still think paranoid schizophrenia is a spiritual issue and that what would really help my mom is Bible reading and tossing the effective medication into the trash. *headdesk* It doesn’t work like that.

  94. Alonzo “Zo” Thomas wrote:

    For the “whitebread world” of Wartburg commentters

    “Zo”
    How the heck do you know it’s a whitebread world? And what would it indicate to you if it happened to be? And what it the possible value of tossing that epithet into the conversation? And is that a distinction that the Bible encourages to make?

    I’m fairly certain it’s not that at all. It’s certainly a multicultural, multinational, nonsectarian world. I happen to be white myself (born that way) but I am very certain that not all commenters are.

  95. @ Victorious:
    I agree with you. Wounded people are much easier to manipulate. And to “ZO”: this christian counseling bs is new. when i was diagnosed in 1983, i was living in the heart of the bible belt. not a single person suggested that i see a pastor for my problems, even though some of my friends were quite religious. I have seen psychologists over the years to work out specific problems that have come up but no psychiatrist for 30 years. and as long as i stay on my meds i’m ok. Have i been manipulated by big pharma, dont think so since my meds are generic.

  96. @ JustSomeGuy:
    JustSomeGuy wrote:

    Nevermind that your rhetoric has been directly countered by the personal experiences of at least ten different people in these very threads.

    LOL! You think that matters to these people, JSG? You think that the people who relayed their personal experiences on this thread are EVER in a position to rightly judge ANYTHING going on, whether with them or the world around them? Ha, ha, ha!

    No…you don’t understand. They are depraved, flawed, lost, wicked, needing to preach the gospel to themselves every day; blind, stupid sheep, judgmental and divinely shunned due to their persistent sin nature. God hates them, don’t you understand? Outside the “covering’ of their “local church” and their pastor “in the stead” (read GOD, as far as the sheep are concerned), they are given over to the full wrath of God, as their irresistible depravity demands.

    THEY don’t really exist at all! They are merely an existential “outcome” of a predetermined forces of which they are merely an extension. To claim that they have some sort of ownership of THEMSELVES denies the obvious “truth” that they are always outside of themselves. Tossed and turned by the capricious whims of whatever external force which compels them: either “God”, if they are good Calvinists and deny themselves in favor of the local Marxist collective, or their irresistible sin nature. But really, nothing of THEM determines their end fate. That has been determined by election long before they were born. Yes…somehow, before they existed, they were “elected”. According to neo-reformed glittering “logic” that which does NOT EXIST can be damned or saved. Truly miraculous. To elect NOTHING (by definition…BEFORE you exist, YOU are elected…YOU are thus NOTHING; again, by definition) to hell or heaven as the foundation of the reason for humanity’s end is truly proof that all reality exists outside of them. What they experience then must of course be wholly irrelevant.

    Morality, thought, life, pain, pleasure, truth…all of it is beyond them. And you have the temerity–the insolent GALL–to hold the personal experiences of educated, lucid, aware and successful adults as proof that can somehow rightly judge the substance of their own hearts, minds, and lives. Tsk, tsk.

    Silly you.

  97. Zo, As a woman, I could have all the medical degrees and Biblical knowledge in the world. I could quote all kinds of studies, BUT I would still not understand what it feels like to be kicked in the balls. The same with mental illness. Until you experience it, you have no clue about the suffering involved. Either these are the comments of a troll or someone with very little empathy for things he has never experienced. Ann

  98. Valence ❤ Bands: “Enjoying The Simple Things?”

    huh?

    “Funny how a 25-cent capsule of amino acids can solve a “spiritual” problem…” – @ Leila

    What?

    ….as simple as a rubber band?

    …yet the solution so profound, it escapes our notice.

    hmmm…

    (sadface)

    >-((S“㋡”py((º>™  

  99. Daisy wrote:

    I’m not sure what part of the quoted thing you are referring to,the person I quoted, who assumes most mental illness is due to sin or to my part, which is, “But usually is not.”

    I was referring to your comments. Sorry to be unclear. You said that the symptoms of depression are usually not caused by sin, and I was asking your basis for saying that. How do we know that the symptoms of depression are not usually caused by sin?

    The bottom line is that we simply don’t know that for most cases. In fact, for most cases, we don’t actually know what causes the symptoms. The fact that a drug relieves symptoms does not mean that the drug addresses the cause.

    Let me use an analogy: Herniated discs in backs can cause tremendous pain. (I know from experience.) However, doctors tell us that many people with herniated discs in MRIs have no pain, and many people with pain have no herniated disc. We also know that pain medicine and physical therapy helps back pain. So we treat symptoms–pain–not necessarily causes; pain meds and therapy don’t really address the disc. In fact, there is no real reason to treat a herniated disc unless it is causing pain. However, treating pain by masking it can actually make the problem worse in some cases.

    Now, all analogies break down, but my point should be clear: We may not know exactly what causes depression in any particular situation, but we know that certain drugs alleviate symptoms. Sometimes, it is okay to do that, but that should not be confused with treating a cause.

    Where is the Bible verse that says all clinical depression, or a majority of it, is due to personal sin?

    Don’t know. You would have to ask someone who believes that.

    Let me cut to the chase: Typically, those who diagnose depression don’t have a category for sin, much less sin as a cause of anything. They closest they come is a standard of “inappropriate guilt,” which is a tacit admission of appropriate guilt. So, if there is no category of sin then of course depression cannot be caused by sin. It can’t be caused by sin because there is no such affect of sin, if sin even exists.

    But is that actually true? It may be true (and sometimes likely is true) that there are physiological causes. It may also be true (and sometimes likely is true) that there are spiritual causes. Their failure to note sin as a cause is not that they considered the option and found a better one; it’s that they never considered it.

    Remember, God made both body and spirit, and they work together, not separately. And it is not always clear which is which. We must treat both.

    Remember, doctors are diagnosing and treating symptoms, not causes. The result is that we live in what many consider to be an overmedicated society, so much so that some professionals are questioning the widespread use of drugs. On top of that, we do not know the long term affects of many of the drugs that are being used.

    As an aside, one of the downsides of this type of conversation is that you have people who aren’t experts making dogmatic proclamations. This happens on both sides. The fact that someone took a drug and got relief does not make one an expert on the real issues–whether physical or spiritual. That’s the danger that must be avoided. We have people here who are telling others that it is sin to explore sinfulness in the life of a Christian. How can that be taken seriously, no matter how much one might think that drugs are acceptable? I think drugs are acceptable at times, and necessary for some, if for no other reason to alleviate symptoms to restore one to a functioning state where some other things can begin to be worked out. As with the back pain, sometimes pain medicine is necessary for basic functioning, in order to get where one can do therapy or other treatments.

    As much as some of you here do not like pastors functioning as experts on things, it is hardly better for you to do so. My encouragement would be caution on all sides.

  100. @ Alonzo “Zo” Thomas: Could you please take care with your comments? I did not like the “white bread” slur. I would also ask you to be kinder to folks who are transparently sharing some vulnerable times in their lives. You can show love and compassion even if you disagree with psychiatry.

  101. @ LT:

    LT,

    Doctors and therapists do not have a category for “spirit of sickness”, or “spirit of deafness” or a “spirit of blindness”. Those are terms used according to first century understanding of physical conditions. The bible was written in a particular context, but we now understand better. What the bible calls “spirits” are not spirits at all. They are knowable. Measurable. Observable. Germs and genetics and viruses.

    And while sin can be categorized according to philosophical tradition, it really is for the most part a subjective interpretation. You cannot necessarily quantify “sin”, and without this ability to quantify it, it is very difficult to clinically approach it. Hence, no psychological category of “sin”.

    Notwithstanding the obvious hypocrisy and delusion of one who holds reformed ideas concerning depravity and sin nature attempting to “counsel” another equally depraved reprobate, it seems even more egregious that a pastor would attempt to clinically treat “sin” in counseling. To attempt a therapeutic remediation of a subjective concept such as sin is simply begging destruction of real human lives. There is no way you can clinically quantify “sin”, and so pastors should NEVER attempt to define it FOR another person unless the effects are, well…obvious. Like child sexual abuse…which apparently doesn’t qualify as “sin” needing to be “treated” in many neo-Cal churches. Hmm…go figure.

    Pastors are qualified (one would think) to preach and teach from the bible. And they can pray for people and offer moral support. That’s it. They have no place being in the counseling business. They should have enough sense and enough compassion and enough awareness of their fellow human beings to refer people to those who ARE qualified to deal with real issues. They can call the police on abusers. They can refer people struggling with sickness to doctors. They can send anxious and depressed people to real counselors (those who…oh, I don’t know…have a DEGREE in their field from an accredited university). They can organize evangelical outreach. They can stop with the stupid conferences and go feed the poor. Set foot in the inner city for once. They can go out and tell people about Jesus. Why not a little more of that?

    They have NO business ever making assumptions on what constitutes “sin” and what constitutes “medicine”. They are not in a position to make that call. Time and time again they prove their incompetence by their false assumptions of what constitutes a preacher’s scope of practice.

  102. Alonzo “Zo” Thomas wrote:

    The money was spent mainly on free drug samples and sales visits to doctors’ offices; studies find that both free samples and sales calls increase prescribing of brand-name drugs and raise medical costs without improving care.

    I would suggest that there are charlatans in medicine just like there are trolls on blogs. However, let me clue you in on samples. My husband is a cardiologist. The samples that he receives from drug reps go to help his indigent patients, often elderly, to save money each month on prescriptions.

    I take exception to your contention that my husband, or many good people who practice medicine, prescribe drugs just because they get free samples to give to patients. He just returned from a three day conference in Cleveland, which he paid for out of his own pocket, to get up to date in new meds and new procedures. He prescribes the drugs that he believes will be most effective and he doesn’t give a rat’s patootie about who gives him free samples. His first, and only concern, is for the welfare of his patient.

  103. LT wrote:

    Sorry to be unclear. You said that the symptoms of depression are usually not caused by sin, and I was asking your basis for saying that. How do we know that the symptoms of depression are not usually caused by sin?

    Based on my personal experience and talking to Christians who have actually had depression who were living pure life styles and despite all the praying, good deeds, and Bible reading and some were weekly church attenders, were not healed of depression until they went on medications or sought out secular therapy.

    Also from reading books and blogs by Christian psychiatrists who have been in the practice for 20, 30 years who have treated lots and lots of Christian and Non Christian patients who testify that not all mental illness in their patients was due to that person’s sins.

    If you want examples of that, along with studies cited, etc., that info is in the book “Why Do Christians Shoot Their Wounded?: Helping Not Hurting Those with Emotional Difficulties” by Carlson

    Even if you wish to argue depression is caused by personal sin (it is not), how would you go about treating it?

    Hint: Bible reading, prayer, asking God for forgiveness and /or healing did not work for me, and it hasn’t worked for a lot of other Christians.

  104. You know, there’s something that tweaks at the back of my mind every time I encounter a discussion like this (and I have come across many of them at various blogs)–what do we make of those emotional/psychological disorders that do NOT have a clear or suspected biological origin? Lots of folks agree that depression and schizophrenia, for example, are associated with imbalances or deficiencies in brain chemistry, and I believe that too. But what about something like PTSD (of which I have a complex and chronic case), which is associated with trauma? I wonder if we may go too far in claiming that all mental illness can be traced back to a physical cause; while I totally understand the need to remove the stigma and do away with accusations of spiritual weakness and sin as related to mental illness, the fact is, some disorders can be directly attributed not to physical causes but to other peoples’ evil or sinful behavior (that of an individual, in the case of abuse or personal violence; or society in general in the case of war trauma, for example), or simply having survived natural disasters. While there have been studies that show alterations in brain structure in some kinds of PTSD, there are very few effective pharmacological treatments for PTSD, and none of them are consistently helpful. I wasn’t born with a genetic tendency toward PTSD and I can’t point to a chemical imbalance, but that doesn’t mean it’s a result of my sin or spiritual deficiency either, nor does it make it any less legitimate than a biologically-related disorder. I just wonder how the church is supposed to treat these kinds of problems–if we can at some point agree that it’s not a spiritual problem, but then it’s not a physical problem, either, where does that leave us? How do we conceptualize the sticky problems that don’t fit neatly into the brave new world?

    But given how much spiritual, sexual, and even physical abuse occurs in or is condoned by the church, I can see how the church would be especially reluctant to acknowledge the psychological fallout of that abuse.

  105. LT wrote:

    That’s the danger that must be avoided. We have people here who are telling others that it is sin to explore sinfulness in the life of a Christian

    I don’t remember anyone here making that claim, and I know I did not.

    You seem to be implying that depression is always due to sin, or that is the first conclusion you jump to.

    And what kind of “sin” would cause depression anyway? I never did drugs, slept around – my depression was onset at age 11. I was “saved” before age ten. I was a goody good my whole life, living for Jesus, etc. So I wasn’t an alcoholic. I was not a crack addict. I never worked as a prostitute. I wasn’t a liar. What “sin” did I do at age 11 to bring on depression? None.

    Also, medications did not work for me personally.

    But reading books by mostly secular psychiatrists and a couple of Christian ones did get me over depression.

  106. Nobody here is saying that medications solve all problems. They are merely one tool in a rather large toolbox to assist people. To completely remove them as an option is a disservice. Same with any other option, including counseling, behavior modification, dietary changes, supplements, etc… The more tools a person has the better. The Bible is not the only means allowed for positive change to take place.

    To correct another misconception here, I do not know a single doctor who thinks of himself/herself as THE healer and I know well over a hundred doctors. They recognize that they play a small role in the healing process and nothing they do can force the human body to heal. For example, an orthopedic surgeon can set a broken bone and encase the limb in a cast but (s)he cannot cause the bone to grow back together. As one beloved surgeon told me, “All I do is change the bandage – God does the rest”. My doctors also do not seek perfection. Their goal is to help imperfect people live as comfortably and safely as possible in an imperfect world. And if prescribing a medication helps, then that is okay. For some of us that might mean taking a pill every day for the rest of our lives. There is no sin in that. There is no sin in reaching out for help from different sources. Please do not condemn people who are brave enough to seek help.

  107. LT wrote:

    We have people here who are telling others that it is sin to explore sinfulness in the life of a Christian.

    I do not think that is what they are saying. They re saying that, all too often, poorly trained nouthetic counselors, go down the sin path when, in fact, it is far more complicated. A person who was sexually abused as a child and develops PTSD as an adult does not need a lecture on sin.
    I do not think that pastors are trained to diagnose and treat most mental illnesses.Best example- I know a young teen who was molested by a pedophile. The pastor came to the teen and started to blame him for not reporting it, claiming he must have gotten some benefit out of the molestation. Despicable!

  108. @ lemonaidfizz:

    Very, very good comment. Excellent.

    I don’t know the answer to your last question concerning these “sticky” issues, but I will tell you this. Having Christ means you NEVER have to be anxious about being anxious. You never have to fear that you are somehow in SIN. If you struggle with anxiety, depression, PSTD, or think you do, then you should not compound your problem with notions of sin that no longer can define you. Jesus never condemns those who are afflicted, either with physical sickness or afflictions of the mind. You should go and seek help from a professional without the slightest concern that you are judged for it. You are not.

    The real sin is found in those who increase your torment by blaming you for it.

  109. There seems to be a lack of understanding in the church about the function of depression as well. The onset of depression is often the body’s way of protecting itself and recovering from a traumatic episode. Most people who have suffered a heart attack go on to struggle from depression, as well as those who suffer loss, other painful and traumatic illness, a drastic life change, and even intense and exhausting ministry endeavours. It took Elijah 3 years of being fed like a baby in the wilderness before he could return to “normal” life (and not once during that time did God castigate him for his “sin” or “issues”, He just took care of His needs and allowed him to REST). I am seeing a lot of the lack of understanding in both LT and Zo’s comments. Harping about sin to a mentally ill person will accomplish nothing except drive that person deeper into their illness and despair. Believe me, I’ve been there. IT DOESN’T WORK! (Now I’m yelling, hehe) What does work is having grace and accepting ourselves as we are, Just As Christ Does, and then in that place doing whatever necessary for YOU to begin the journey of healing. And that journey is different for every person. I mentioned my own on the other thread, but here’s a taste of what has helped me: prayer, friends, medication, sunlight, music, vegetables, counselling, cognitive behavioural therapy, acupuncture, family, crying, laughing, exercise, regular schedule, the presence of God, church, talking with my doctor, vitamins, omega 3 fish oil, vacations, writing…..I could go on. And I’m still in process, like many here are, and it turns out that sin was not the root cause of my depression…it was a Chemical Imbalance in my Brain. But, believing for so long that it was sin was detrimental for me to begin to heal, because no matter how much I repented and prayed and confessed, my depression didn’t get better, and the shame and guilt was overwhelming. So, LT, I encourage caution for you especially. You have no idea how your fixation with sin as root cause could be damaging someone’s path to healing.

  110. Ann wrote:

    Zo, As a woman, I could have all the medical degrees and Biblical knowledge in the world. I could quote all kinds of studies, BUT I would still not understand what it feels like to be kicked in the balls. The same with mental illness

    😆 Bobby Hill: That’s My Purse!

    On a serious note, I agree. It is like mental illness. Usually those who have never suffered from it have no idea what it’s like, and their pat or cliched answers and “solutions,” or blaming you for it (ie, it must be due to personal sin), add to the hurt and damage.

  111. @ lemonaidfizz:
    Very good point. PTSD is the result of trauma. I have had religious people tell me to just get over it. Sigh. The most effective ‘treatment’ I have found for PTSD involves doing something the church always taught me NOT to do: looking back at the past – my childhood – and letting the memories and emotions speak. I am not ‘cured’ of PTSD. But after 5 years of therapy and finding even just that one good, true friend who understands and supposts, the intense episodes are far less frequent. I believe because I have finally been able to acknowledge the truth of what was done and that it was bad, ugly, and not my fault.

    Whether it is physical or not is ont something I have not studied. But here is my undersatnding of the general elements. Trauma occurs – in my case, beginning when I was 2. The child’s mind has no tools at its disposal to process the trauma. So the emotions of the trauma get boxed and set aside – compartmentalized so that the child can continue to function. If the trauma continues (as it did in my case), the emotions continue to get boxed and stored rather than felt and dealt with.

    Eventually, critical mass is reached. As an adult, hearing a conversation about abuse, seeing a parent yell at the their child, seeing an image or any number of seemingly random things can cause the emotions stored in those boxes to flood out and you find yourself right back in the middle of the traumatic event, reliving it with all the attendant emotions. It is debilitating and in a religious setting, devestating becuase it is not treated for what it is….trauma.

    To be perfectly honest, because of the abuses in my past, church services in themselves can be a PTSD inducing event.

  112. I was looking for a video by a preacher who used to give glib, pat answers to depressed people who came to him for help, but after he got depressed and had to take medication for it, he’s become a lot more sensitive – but I can’t find that page at the moment.

    I did find this page, which has a few good tips on it (I’ve never heard of this guy before, and he does have a link in one column to “Theology at Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary” but his points look pretty good):
    8 Ways Preachers Harm the Depressed

    My favorite points (how preachers harm the depressed):

    Sermons that extol constant happiness as the only valid and virtuous Christian experience.
    The deep pain of depression is multiplied when a depressed person is repeatedly told that sadness is a sin.

    Sermons that condemn anyone for using meds to treat depression or anxiety.
    These are often preached by pastors whose medicine cabinets are overflowing with pills and potions for every other condition under the sun!

    I’ll keep looking for that video with the preacher who has changed his views on depression after it happened to him.

  113. Daisy wrote:

    I was looking for a video by a preacher who used to give glib, pat answers to depressed people who came to him for help, but after he got depressed and had to take medication for it, he’s become a lot more sensitive – but I can’t find that page at the moment.

    The glib, pat (and in this case, Biblical and Gospelly) answers ALWAYS come from those who have never “seen the elephant” themselves.

  114. Jeannette Altes wrote:

    Very good point. PTSD is the result of trauma. I have had religious people tell me to just get over it. Sigh.

    Let me guess:
    “Five Fast Praise-the-LOORDs will fix it”?
    “Just Spend Fifteen Minutes Alone With The LOORD Each Morning”?
    “What Secret Sin Must Be In Your Life”?
    “SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE!”?
    (I’ve had all the above used on me during my college days. Amazing how God gives them all this Discernment(TM) that can’t discern PTSD or low-end Aspergers when it’s staring them in the face.)

  115. dee wrote:

    Best example- I know a young teen who was molested by a pedophile. The pastor came to the teen and started to blame him for not reporting it, claiming he must have gotten some benefit out of the molestation.

    After all, it was (reverb) SEXUAL (end reverb). Nothing disconnects the Christianese brain from reality more than anything SEXUAL, real or imagined.

  116. Daisy wrote:

    And what kind of “sin” would cause depression anyway? I never did drugs, slept around – my depression was onset at age 11. I was “saved” before age ten. I was a goody good my whole life, living for Jesus, etc. So I wasn’t an alcoholic. I was not a crack addict. I never worked as a prostitute. I wasn’t a liar. What “sin” did I do at age 11 to bring on depression?

    Ask a Visionary like Mark Driscoll: “I SEE Things…”

  117. Two important men who suffered from depression were Abe Lincoln and Winston Churchill. Lincoln called it meloncholia and Churchill named his the black dog. Both men had a keen understanding of evil and justice. makes me consider that those who suffer through depression might make excellent pastors

  118. @ Mandy: So true.

    And – as I’m sure you know far better than me – the same kind of thing is leveled by the world at large at people who deal with chronic pain. (Which is pretty much where I’m at, though from very different causes than what you’ve been going through.)

    It’s not an easy place to be. I pray for more insight, and for doctors to become more compassionate. God knows, some are, and some really are not, when it comes to problems that have no easy “fix.”

  119. Nothing to do with the SBC, but here’s one for you.

    About 10 years ago when I was still working in Prudential’s IT division, I woke up one morning with, out of the blue, a very clear sentence in my head: “You’re prone to depressive mood-swings”. It took me somewhat by surprise (I’m not a morning person), but it had the same tone (for want of a better word) and effect as God’s voice does when I’m wide awake. There was certainly no judgement or accusation about it. But there also wasn’t a point to it as far as I could see, so I got on with the day.

    Around mid-morning, whilst working on some IT fault or other, I discovered I’d made a mistake with something that was going to take an hour or so to fix. And I was just in the process of getting really depressed about how my attempts to progress my career and start to go for a senior analyst programmer post were now totally stuffed and it was a disaster, when I remembered the unexpected phrase and realised this was what God meant. My beliefs about my career ending weren’t actually true, in other words; it was just a moodswing. Thus fortified, I got on with fixing the problem. (Very much like having a severe pain but discovering it’s only a stitch, cramp, or something else that’s not actually serious.)

    For someone else, with a different psychological make-up and different life circumstances, this might not have worked. But God didn’t say it to someone else who needed a different approach; he said it to me. Now, if I’d run off on a tangent and concluded that God had revealed a healing formula to me, and started a ministry based on it, I would probably have got lucky with some people and caused complications for others. That’s the trouble with formulas, Biblical™, Freudian, Jungian or otherwise.

  120. JustSomeGuy wrote:

    Definitely a troll.

    It wasn’t what he was saying, so much (I know some people who do believe that stuff) as the way it was said…relentless & merciless.

  121. Beth Duncan wrote:

    However, people with mental illness need biblical counsel as much, and sometimes more, than anyone else. If someone was suffering from a chronic physical disease, say MS, and was going through a health crisis, biblical counsel will help their faith and their spirit. In the same way, biblical counsel will help a person with mental illness when they are going through a crisis.

    I'm glad to hear that you got the help you needed. The problem arises when people are constantly taught that ALL their answers and cures can be found in the bible. Quite frankly that line of thought, in my opinion, leads to even more trauma for many people. It God gave someone the knowledge to come up with something (refrigeration, medications, better ways of farming), are we not to take advantage of such knowledge because it was not specifically stated in the bible? Especially when we pick and choose what we believe is right? As an example, people I know see nothing wrong with eating shrimp.

  122. The Secret To This Dilemma Discussed Here Is : “Personal Responsibility?”

    What?

    Each individual has a personal responsibility to himself, herself , his or her family, and the comunity in which each serves. To abdicate this personal responsibility, or to leave it to others in this  task, is in itself a foolhardy gesture.  Each individual will stand, for his or her actions alone. 

    huh?

    As each individual is not responsible for the actions other than his or her alone, again to give that responsibility to others is sear irresponsibility. Each man is responsible for his or her actions.; the benefit or the detriment theirs alone to command.

    *

    What am I saying; what am I getting at, is this:

    How we respond to religion, Is akin (in the general sense) to how we conduct ourself with regards to say, medical, or scientific knowledge. We can choose to include the generous remedy each branch has to offer or to simply disregard at will. The choice is therefore up to the individual to decide.  

    If we give our choices to others to make, we subject ourselves to the choices they may make for us. Those choice may or may not be appropriate for our condition or our circumstances.; therefore, each man must take notice, and act accordingly.  

    However, again, please note that one individual can not be held responsible for the actions, or the choices another individual might make.

    Let the reader therefore keep that keenly in mind when making say: scriptural, scientific and medical choices.

    One will stand before one’s creator  either way, irrespective of the possible deferment of personal responsibility not withstanding.

    A pill hard to swallow?

    hmmm…

    could b.

    ATB

    Sopy

  123. I have a cousin who is bi polar as well as a son who is.

    My cousin’s diagnosing dr was also a strong Southern Baptist. Only after she was stable on meds, enjoying life for the first time in 20 years, did he address the whole sin issue.

    With his wise counsel she was able to forgive herself where she had guilt over actions that were the direct manifestation of her disease. But he also challenged her to take responsibility for her actions, not take the easy out of “its not my fault is is the disease.”

    It took a couple of years of talk therapy, spiritual counseling, and a lifetime on meds but it was very valuable to her. She realized that some of her symptoms were from the disease, but some were from sin, did some soul searching, and has had the best result of any of the bipolars in our family.

    Those that did Biblical counsel only, or talk therapy only, or meds only did not fare well.

  124. “Those that did Biblical counsel only, or talk therapy only, or meds only did not fare well.” @ linda

    Brilliant! 

    A comprehensive approach is deemed therefore necessary; spirit, soul, body, and one’s environment?

    Pill pushers, Pulpit pounders, and Those who abdicate  personal responsibility, beware?

    hmmm….

    Advocating a more ho·lis·tic approach?

    You betcha!

    Life, the sum of the parts, perhaps?

    could b.

    ATB

    Sopy

  125. lemonaidfizz wrote:

    I wonder if we may go too far in claiming that all mental illness can be traced back to a physical cause; while I totally understand the need to remove the stigma and do away with accusations of spiritual weakness and sin as related to mental illness, the fact is, some disorders can be directly attributed not to physical causes but to other peoples’ evil or sinful behavior

    You make a good point. In the psychology/psychiatry community, it’s been only in the last 30 years that there’s been delineation between mental disorder that’s damage (PTSD-types) and mental disorder that is disease. The delineation between mental illness and developmental disorders (such as autism) is recent understanding, too.

    Re PTSD, how does one medicate a damaged psyche/soul? It is largely for amelioration of symptoms. Sometimes, after long untreated damage, disease occurs and that can be treated. PTSD’s effects vary, depending on when the trauma occurred. So, for eg, a young child who is severely abused can look somewhat like an autistic child, and sometimes similar treatments can help.

    Further, a good therapist will be able to delineate between situational anxiety/depression (which may be the result of grief or career failure, for eg) and that which has biological origins. And she will also understand that some psychic disorder is from “stinkin’ thinkin'” – and this is where ideas of sin/guilt turn up among the secular.

    Of course, a good therapist recognizes that much of the time diagnosis/treatment is not either/or. The fascination of the job is to track down all the contributing parts and help the client to dismantle/remantle so they can be restored to as much health as possible. And for that, multiple tools are available.

  126. numo wrote:

    …the same kind of thing is leveled by the world at large at people who deal with chronic pain…It’s not an easy place to be. I pray for more insight, and for doctors to become more compassionate.

    Yes! When I was winding down psychological therapy for PTSD (which people denied me for decades), I began having chronic pain and intense fatigue. After several rounds with the medical doctors, beating back the psychosomatic meme to get a medical diagnosis, I had to go more rounds re doctors’ bizarre denial of pain.

    It was at that point I realized people are simply terrified of recognizing such a thing as chronic pain/disability, whether psychological (PTSD) or physical. They deny their fear by denying the reality, and it morphs into judgment and control. Bah

  127. dee wrote:

    I take exception to your contention that my husband, or many good people who practice medicine, prescribe drugs just because they get free samples to give to patients.

    Let me begin by saying that I am convinced in my heart of hearts that your husband is one of the highest exponents of his profession and that he is also a prince of a man.

    But I cannot and will not agree that the FDA has the best interest of the American public at large any more than I’ll agree that the FCC does. When push comes to shove the interests of the shareholders (big pharma & big media) will prevail.

  128. You seem to be implying that depression is always due to sin, or that is the first conclusion you jump to.

    Then you just didn’t read what I said. I said nothing of the sort and nothing I said could be understood in this way. In fact, I expressly said the opposite when I replied to your question about a verse with “You would have to ask someone who believes that,” which clearly indicates I can’t answer your question because I don’t believe that.

    And this is, IMO, a major part of the problem: People don’t listen to what others actually say. They approach the conversation with presuppositions that they force on others. You seem not to have a category for people who recognize that something like depression can be physiological or it can be spiritual, or they might be connected. Doctors well recognize that psychological conditions have effects on the body. But some want to deny this.

    You ask what sort of sins would bring depression. The answer is just about all of them can: Adultery, pornography, alcoholism, laziness, abortion. That doesn’t mean that all depression is sin, or stems from sin. But in that I am merely repeating myself.

    Again, this whole conversation continues to illustrate the problem I am pointing out: People (not specifically you) who aren’t experts are making dogmatic declarations which they are not equipped, and thus, not entitled to make. And it is not the “nouthetic side” that is primarily guilty of it. Those who say that meds and secular counseling are always the answer are just as wrong as those who say that no meds and biblical counseling is always the answer. It is more complex than that.

  129. Those are terms used according to first century understanding of physical conditions. The bible was written in a particular context, but we now understand better. What the bible calls “spirits” are not spirits at all. They are knowable. Measurable. Observable. Germs and genetics and viruses.

    And here you have it … Someone thousands of years removed from the actual events telling us that he knows what was going on. How in the world can you possibly diagnose a cause from two thousand years ago when you are not a doctor and even if you were, you haven’t seen the patient? How do you know that demons cannot have these kinds of physical effects?

    To call sin a subjective interpretation is likewise just strange, completely without merit, either biblically or socially.

    To say that pastors can preach and teach but not counsel misunderstand the fundamental nature of the counseling task, and what it’s about.

    You say, They [pastors] have NO business ever making assumptions on what constitutes “sin” and what constitutes “medicine”. They are not in a position to make that call. And yet have done just that, without training, and from two thousand years away no less. And strangely, I bet you don’t see the hypocrisy in that. I want to be kind to you, Argo. I really do, but this is not my first rodeo in any of the multiple issues in this conversation. Frankly, your kind of comments have no place here. I wish you had the knowledge and experience to see through them. Then you wouldn’t make them.

  130. LT

    I would agree that there is a place for saying that some depression can be cause by persistent sin like substanceand alcohol abuse. However, straight Biblcial counseling will not suffice even that situation. MDs usually need to be called in to help with detox, etc. My brother, an internist, is also specialty boarded in substance abuse treatment. 

    However, treatment for schizophrenia should be placed in the hands of competent doctors and psychologists. I have seen one too many churches revert to tryng to exorcise demons from schizophrenics since they believed it couldn’t be anything else. Others are told that they haven’t prayed hard enough or read enough of the Bible. This is dangerous.

    As for peopel being equipped to diagnose and counsel those with psychological issues, I am concerned. Weekend conferences and a couple of recommended books give people enough knowledge to be dangerous. Such courses might be helpful to learn how to care for a person who is understandably depressed due to the loss of a spouse but not for long term counsel of intractable depression.

  131. @ LT:
    Yes LT, mental disorder/Illness is a broad complex problem to which simplistic answers don’t suffice. Many in this thread clearly agree with you on this.

    But then you contradict yourself, “To say that pastors can preach and teach but not counsel misunderstand the fundamental nature of the counseling task, and what it’s about.”

    Pastors offer spiritual advice as well as general brotherly advice, which we can call “good counsel” but that is different than psych therapy. A pastor is trained in his own specialty and isn’t “competent to counsel” in the psychological sense. To become an effective therapist, one studies/trains in a different field at a depth/concentration equal to M Div.

    You also write, “…People (not specifically you) who aren’t experts are making dogmatic declarations which they are not equipped, and thus, not entitled to make. And it is not the “nouthetic side” that is primarily guilty of it.”

    But the nouthetic approach was born as a whole-sale rejection of the field of psychology and a retreat into the narrative that the Bible-is-complete-for-all-things. Even though nouthetic counselors believe they work to heal the problems of the human psyche, they have little knowledge of it. If they had expert knowledge, they would not come up with such abysmal ways of approaching psychological pain/disorder.

    Last quote: “Those who say that meds and secular counseling are always the answer are just as wrong as those who say that no meds and biblical counseling is always the answer…”

    What you call “secular counseling” is actually psych therapy and to call it “secular” is an offense to many educated, experienced, and wise believers who practice it. Moreover, I know of no psych therapist who believes meds are always the answer, much less the only answer. However, many nouthetic counselors believe that meds are never the answer.

  132. @ LT:

    So according to your logic, when people were afflicted with “the vapors” two hundred years ago, I shouldn’t be so silly to assume that it was really pneumonia. Because I wasn’t there, by your argument, it could very well be that there really was such thing as the “vapors”.

    When in the early 20th century they tried to breed out criminals by sterilizing convicts according to the wisdom of the eugenic scientists, I shouldn’t assume that that practice was not viable because I wasn’t there. They could have known something modern geneticists didn’t know.

    Perhaps blacks and women were indeed lesser forms of humanity, inferior to the western white man. I wasn’t there, after all. So, according to your logic, it is possible that our social scientists back in the early 1800s knew and saw something I didn’t. Silly me.

    And yes, sin IS subjective. How do you objectively categorize sin? Apart from obvious violations of human minds, bodies and property, how do you objectively define sin to a person? You say, it’s a sin to be gay. Okay, explain why…OBJECTIVELY? You say, it is a sin to get drunk every weekend. Explain that to me objectively. You say, it is a sin to be greedy…to make wealth acquisition the goal of life. Okay, again. How do you convince a person who doesn’t accept your Christian morality that they are in sin?

    “Because it’s in the bible” is NOT objective proof. Someone says, I’m depressed; I’m suicidal, I have an anxiety disorder, I have PTSD…the pastor says “let’s see if this is sin”. But since sin in this case can only ever be subjectively qualified, the ONLY possible approach for a pastor is to dismiss the possibility that it is a clinical/biological issue. This is a very dangerous assumption, and is why pastors-as-counselors do more harm than good.

    And that is the root of the weakness of your idea. You approach your faith from the point of view that it is an absolute APART from man, where in reality all notions of what is sin or not are going to be defined according to the context of INDIVIDUALS. The bible is the objective truth outside of humans…it is the proof of itself. If the bible says “be anxious in nothing”, and someone is anxious, it is, according to the notions of “inerrancy” and your “logic” a SIN to be anxious, because ALL of reality exists OUTSIDE individual people.

    This is why Christian counseling, rooted in the idea of “biblical inerrant authority for life” destroys people. It is fine to talk, pray, and share. It is not fine to assume the role of a counselor, when counseling as a profession accepts objective clinical understanding of psychological disorders, something that biblical inerrant-ists simply cannot do. You cannot declare the bible inerrant and concede that there is ANY reality outside of it. It is a contradictory position to hold.

    And that is really what you are saying. Clinical diagnosis of a pathological psyche’s is impossible, because it isn’t in the bible. And that is complete nonsense.

  133. @ Patrice:
    Just to finish comment. The idea of oppositional equivalency is seldom accurate. One side is rarely equally as awry as the other side. Discernment requires knowing what is correct/incorrect, wherever side they happen to lie.

    I always read Argo’s comments and enjoy them. He is in an honest pursuit and has a good mind.

  134. LT wrote:

    You ask what sort of sins would bring depression. The answer is just about all of them can: Adultery, pornography, alcoholism, laziness, abortion. That doesn’t mean that all depression is sin, or stems from sin. But in that I am merely repeating myself.

    Again, this whole conversation continues to illustrate the problem I am pointing out: People (not specifically you) who aren’t experts are making dogmatic declarations which they are not equipped, and thus, not entitled to make.

    About the sin part of your comment:
    I was an eleven year old kid when the depression began, and I was diagnosed.

    What “sins” was I guilty of in your estimation? And remember: I was a Bible reading goody goody, very obedient to my parents, no drug abuse, wasn’t a liar, was a straight A student, no drinking, no smoking, no sex, was not lazy – I’m in my early 40s, still a virgin, as I have not married – so no “adultery” or “abortion” for me, either.

    (Sometimes depression is not caused by sin or biological reasons but by faulty thinking. That is where Cognitive Behavioral Therapy‎ may help some, or that in combination with anti depressants, if the depression is both biological and cognitive.)

    As to this,
    “People (not specifically you) who aren’t experts are making dogmatic declarations”

    I see your “not specifically you” qualifier, but you still insist on hammering “sin is at the root” type attitude.

    Well, I am an “expert” on the matter since I suffered from depression for over 20-25 years, and I’m telling you that a lot of your attitude about depression is wrong.

    What qualifies for experts, in your thinking?

    I do not consider “Biblical counselors” to be “experts.”

    I’ve read a lot of books and blogs and been to people I do consider experts – both Christian and Non Christian psychologists, psychiatrists, who have years of medical training, and who have seen many patients over 20 – 30 year long careers.

    And none of these experts prescribe (at least the Christian ones) in all cases “look for personal sin as to the root and treatment of your depression” and/or “Just read your Bible.”

    Some of the Christian doctors say sin can be a cause for SOME people in depression, but they are very careful to examine each person on a case- by- case basis and don’t just assume it’s always, or mostly, due to “personal sin.”

    You seem overly preoccupied with defending the view point that “sin plays a part” or “sin is the cause” above and beyond admitting that biological factors or some other non-sin factor could be a cause.

    You seem more interested in holding people guilty and blaming them for some sin or another rather than in just helping them.

    And quoting Bible verses at most people with mental health problems is not going to help them or cure them.

  135. LT wrote:

    How do you know that demons cannot have these kinds of physical effects?

    I think very few people would argue that mental illness is entirely spiritual or entirely physical. That kind of rigid, black-and-white thinking is far too simplistic; humans cannot be reduced to either/or. There are many shades of gray along that spectrum, and to further complicate the issue, there are disorders (not to beat a dead horse, but e.g., PTSD) that may not even fall on this black to white spectrum–they’re purple or blue or yellow, so to speak. I think many here are calling at least for the church to develop a more nuanced, sensitive approach to helping folks with any of the myriad disorders that cause emotional distress.

    Here’s a real life story for you: when I was a teenager and suicidal, my parents had my fundy baptist church perform an exorcism. Did it help? Well, it helped propel me out of the faith and far, far away, probably never to return (church is a huge trigger for me too, like Jeanette noted above, but that’s another story). You’re free to believe that demons and sin can cause mental disorders–and even though you aren’t coming right out and saying you believe such factors are the sole or primary cause of those disorders, you seem to be implying as much and many people here seem to be inferring as much from your comments. But I’m living proof to the contrary, because I’m alive now not because of my diligent efforts to be a perfect Christian as a child and teenager or an exorcism but because of a bit of pharmacological help and many years with a very patient and wise (secular) therapist. I thank Argo for his kind words in response to my post last night, and I believe if the church as a whole could adopt a more open and accepting attitude, more hurting people would feel welcome and supported rather than shunned and shamed.

  136. LT wrote:

    To say that pastors can preach and teach but not counsel misunderstand the fundamental nature of the counseling task, and what it’s about.

    Why would I go to a preacher for counseling, in particular over depression, or if I had bi-polar disorder?

    I sometimes have anxiety attacks.

    What good will a preacher do for that? I bet most would quote Bible verses at me. Quoting Bible verses at me, such as, “Perfect love casts out all fear,” does not stop anxiety or panic attacks.

    If I have a tooth ache, I’d go to a dentist. Not a preacher.

    If I have a plumbing problem, I’d call a plumber, not a preacher.

    I would caution anyone out there who’s having any kind of serious problem to be very careful who you seek for help.

    Just as you have to “doctor shop” to find a therapist or psychiatrist who won’t abuse you, same goes with church people and preachers.

    I’ve had to learn the hard way it is foolish and unwise to immediately open up to people, even if they say they are a Christian, because people will hurt you (but on the web, where one can use a screen name, I feel it’s a little safer, more so than in face to face encounters).

    Some people will use any personal dirty laundry you share with them against you. That includes people who work as preachers.

    When you become vulnerable with some people, they think it is their prerogative to then criticize, judge you, or tell you how to live your life.

    I’ve also read exposes about preachers who take sexual advantage of women who come to see them for counseling over a death, or failed marriage, or whatever.

  137. Growing up my hometown, my entire family benefited from the services of a wonderful Christian counselor/psychologist. She had several advanced degrees in psychology and counseling but was not a licensed psychiatrist and couldn’t prescribe medicines. What was unique about Mrs. H. is that she had very close relationships with several psychiatrists and did not hesitate to refer patients to the psychiatrists. And the psychiatrists did the same with Mrs. H. It is possible to find that precious balance between medical counsel and religious counsel but it takes a team of humble people willing to work together. As an independent counselor Mrs. H. also worked with the local pastors so that they would be willing to send people to the appropriate helper. I think what we are all trying to say here is that it is unwise to consider the Bible to be the only allowed means by which conditions of the brain are treated. It needs to be one of many options, combined with therapy from other sources to form a complete regimen. For some people that might mean counseling and exercise/diet chances along with short-term medicines. For others it might mean in-patient care followed up by a lifetime of counseling and medicines. And for others, a religious counselor might be enough. You have to be flexible enough to try a little bit of everything until you know what works.

    For whatever its worth, a lot of this applies to the treatment of chronic pain as well.

  138. LT wrote:

    Those who say that meds and secular counseling are always the answer are just as wrong as those who say that no meds and biblical counseling is always the answer. It is more complex than that.

    I don’t recall anyone here saying medication or secular counseling is “always” the answer for every one, all the time in every single last case.

    Medication and/or secular therapy/Christian psychiatrists do help an awful lot of people, both Christian and Non, however.

    I told a lady on some thread here who claims she was helped out of depression by Bible reading and faith, good for her- if Bible reading alone helped her, that is swell. I think it’s great she found healing and peace in that approach.

    But Bible reading and “religious/spiritual” approaches did not work for me in regards to depression, anxiety, painful shyness, and low self esteem.

    And I’ve seen many, many other Christians in person, and in online communities for depressed people, share similar stories: they were depressed for years, and Bible reading, having faith for a healing, and prayer did not help them – but something else did.

    Some in this thread said changing their diet helped.
    Some said secular therapy helped them.
    Some said medication helped them.
    Some said a combination of those things helped (diet + meds + therapy)

    Medications did not help me in particular, so I discontinued them.

    Reading books by secular and Christian psychiatrists did help me.

    My depression was not helped by medications or by seeing a secular doctor (of which I had seen several over my life) – but reading books by doctors on issues related to depression.

    But I get the notion that you think “Biblical counseling” alone should be used to treat people with depression and other problems.

    I can’t tell how opposed you are to medication and secular therapy, if you are in total opposition or only partially.

    Maybe you are fine with people turning to medication and/or secular therapy or Christian psychiatrists if the Bible or demonic exorcists didn’t help them, I don’t know.

  139. Patrice wrote:

    What you call “secular counseling” is actually psych therapy and to call it “secular” is an offense to many educated, experienced, and wise believers who practice it. Moreover, I know of no psych therapist who believes meds are always the answer, much less the only answer. However, many nouthetic counselors believe that meds are never the answer.

    I agree with this comment. Do we say that to seek medical care from a doctor is to seek “secular” care? As opposed to what? Faith healing because that is what some propose.

    Also, I know a number of Christian psychiatrists who work for “secular” institutions. Would we say that they are secular practitioners?

    As many who linger here know, there are all sorts of sins that are pronounced by pastors that are not really sins. For example, one set of churches have told their congregants that seeking answers to difficult questions (like why a pastor suddenly disappeared) is “sinfully craving answers.” Others claim that sin is leaving a church without getting your pastor’s permission. I know of a pastor who called two lovely Christian people “wicked” and “unregenerate” because they did not agree with him on a secondary issue.

    I know of pastors who have told schizophrenics that they are in sin. I have know pastors who have told children who were molested that it is partly their fault and so they are sinners.

    So, I hesitate to accept the “authority” of some pastors. i also hesitate to accept the authority of a pastor in all things as well. They are no different than me-often struggling with human frailties.

  140. @ lemonaidfizz: I am so, so sorry for that awful experience. No wonder you got the heck out. I do not blame you. Thank you for being willing to share your traumatic experience with all of us. I know that must be hard. But it sure helps us to hear the results of the stupid choice of your pastor and parents.

  141. LT wrote:

    To call sin a subjective interpretation is likewise just strange, completely without merit, either biblically or socially.

    Is it really?

    Jesus cautioned against drawing what you think are sure fire conclusions about someone else’s suffering or what causes it (eg Luke 13. v 1 – 5 ) .

    Look at Job. Job was, the Bible says, a “righteous” man, but God permitted Satan to attack Job, take away his wealth, kill off some of his family.

    Job’s religious friends, like Biblical/Nouthetic counselors of today, said, “Job, you must examine what sin you did, obviously you sinned to bring on so much suffering. You need to repent.” God showed up at the end of that story to vindicate Job in that and say that the friends were wrong.

    While I believe the Bible clearly spells out some behaviors as being sinful, even well-meaning Christians get their understanding of things wrong.

    There are IFB churches who think women wearing pants is a sin. They also think long hair on men is sinful, or either gender wearing shorts is sinful. They’re basing this either on a faulty understanding, or odd application, of a handful of verses.

    Some Christians make their personal preferences and convictions into commands for other believers, over topics that are Romans Ch 14 territory (topics that are ‘grey areas’ that God leaves up to the individual’s conscience).

    The Pharisees and other religious leaders of Jesus’ day thought they were upholding God’s word but were actually violating it – their traditions and understanding of the word were actually canceling out God’s intent (e.g., Matthew 15: 1-6).

  142. @ dee:

    FWIW, I do use the word “secular” myself, not as a put down in these discussions, only to delineate or distinguish it from “Christian” (or more specifically) “Biblical / Nouthetic counseling.”

    “Secular” for me is a shorthand way in some conversations as saying “Non Christian.”

  143. @ Daisy: How, then, would you classify a Christian psychiatrist who works in a secular institution? Also, my husband is a Christian. When he provides his cardiology care, does he do so as as a secularist physician (he is in a practice with doctors who do no necessarily share his beliefs) or as a Christian.

  144. @ dee:
    I find that more often than not the whole Christian/secular distinction is a fabrication. “Secular” is just a Christian scare word…used to intimidate people out of their freedom and piece of mind. Like “postmodernism”. Oh! The horror!!

    Your husband is a doctor. There does not need to be a fake label “Christian” in front of that. I want my doctor to be competent and kind. I will take care of the religion part on MY end. He or she can be a socialist anarchist for all I care. I just need them to fix me. 🙂

    By the way. Your husband is a cardiologist?! That is awesome.

  145. @ dee:
    Thank you, Dee. I was intending to draw an illustration from my little anecdote, but I got distracted by making Father’s Day dinner for DH 🙂

    So here’s where I was headed, since I know anecdote /= data, but for those who might be inclined to dismiss “secular” therapy and meds as being worldly, unbiblical, and evil without exception, I thought I could make an argument for their usefulness:

    1) Is it a good thing that I am alive today? If you profess that all human life is sacred, then you must answer YES. (Personally, some days I am not sure, but I think my husband and kiddos would probably say YES as well, so we’ll go with that.)

    2) If YES, then you must acknowledge the utility and potential goodness of secular therapy and meds, since I am alive today as a direct result of those treatments.

    So for those who adhere to nouthetic counseling only, where does that leave us? Without secular therapy and meds, I would be dead today. Period. And I am not alone; there are many, many of us who are alive today–struggling and taking it day-to-day perhaps, but alive nonetheless–not because of the intervention of the church, but in spite of it.

    I do not intend offense with my little story, because I know that there are many good and kind people in the church, and many of you read and post here. So please don’t think I am attacking the church and its members wholesale 🙂 I am only trying to prevent further harm and damage by introducing the possibility of a differing viewpoint to those who might be indoctrinated and afraid of change.

  146. To Anne: Your post broke my heart. I have a son whose life has been dramatically disrupted by OCD (scrupulosity), and I share your pain. You both are in my prayers!

    To Headless Unicorn: Your observation regarding Ann’s brother was so right on! Their anxiety has broken them…now the question is how, and into what image, do we help them aspire? Your post made me realize that I have to treat my son as the man he hopes to be, not as the fragile, broken, “doomed” young man he appears to be. May I only speak words of truth and life to him and every other fragile human I encounter.

    Regarding the Nouthetic counseling movement: I was Reformed, but thanks to my excommunication (not to beat a dead horse), I am reforming! My former church (a 9Marks church) is giddy about the acquisition of a new property on which to put its new “Counseling Center” where anyone in the community can sign up for a certificate program in biblical counseling! Of its three certified staff members, one can be heard here (http://www.cornerstoneca.org/sermons/Fighting_Fear_and_Defeating_Depression_Part_1.mp3) teaching the following:

    “The goal of secular psychology is just to help people feel normal and function better. But is that God’s goal? God’s goal is that we become more like Christ.” Therefore, “we should not alleviate or eliminate emotional pain. We must cooperate with it.” “One of the motives of teaching that depression and anxiety are caused by something outside of the individual’s control is to eliminate people’s responsibility, and to eliminate the effects of sin.” He later goes on to undermine the value of antidepressant medications. He also explains that since we deserve hell, anything short of hell is God’s grace to us. (My note: This is an example of “meticulous sovereignty”: the horrific Reformed attribute of God by which He designs and implements torture, child abuse, pain and loss, “for our good, and His glory”).

    A second certified staff member, responding to questions about a wife’s right to separate (not divorce) from an abusive spouse, said the following:

    1. “To submit to verbal attacks, reviling, slander, maligning, and cruelty is a very difficult situation in which she will suffer greatly” but “I do not believe that it is biblical to counsel a woman that she may separate from her husband.”

    2. “While (some believe that) a husband’s anger, rage, harshness, name-calling, cynical and sarcastic speech, and fighting can do great emotional harm to his wife, (and) it is true that his actions will likely result in painful and and unpleasant emotions in his wife, emotions in and of themselves are not harmful.” (She did not address the effects of this rage on the children who grow up in this home, nor the fact that the power of life and death are in the tongue.)

    3. “One of the key teachings biblical counselors have to combat is the idea of psychological and emotional needs.” (Meaning there are no such things.)

    These are just a few of the ideas nouthetic counseling teaches as biblical truth. Sorry about the long post; I just want people to be aware that certification does not necessarily make one “competent to counsel.”

  147. dee wrote:

    a Christian psychiatrist who works in a secular institution

    I guess as “a Christian psychiatrist who works in a secular institution.”

    I’m trying to make a distinction between
    1. people who think people who have mental illnesses need to be treated only with religious means (eg, reading the Bible or prayer) and
    2. people who think medication, or cognitive therapy or some other means that it not necessarily spiritual or religious is acceptable and not “anti biblical.”

    Christians can fall into either category 1 or 2.

    I used to work in a tech field, let’s say ‘field X’ and it was for a secular employer. Although I was a Christian as far as my spiritual beliefs went, I didn’t work in my capacity there as a Christian per se, nor did I have any particular “Christian” approach to my career.

    Argo said,
    “Secular” is just a Christian scare word…used to intimidate people out of their freedom and piece of mind. Like “postmodernism”. Oh! The horror!!

    That is not how I use the term secular. It’s just a way of saying “Non Christian.” It is not meant in a derogatory way.

  148. lemonaidfizz wrote:

    I think very few people would argue that mental illness is entirely spiritual or entirely physical. That kind of rigid, black-and-white thinking is far too simplistic; humans cannot be reduced to either/or. There are many shades of gray along that spectrum, and to further complicate the issue, there are disorders (not to beat a dead horse, but e.g., PTSD) that may not even fall on this black to white spectrum–they’re purple or blue or yellow, so to speak. I think many here are calling at least for the church to develop a more nuanced, sensitive approach to helping folks with any of the myriad disorders that cause emotional distress.

    Yes. Many people here are trying to change things. But in the general population of the US, I do think the majority of people think mental issues are either totally spiritual or physical. If they think about it at all. People want simple answers that fit with their other suppositions about life.

  149. @ Janet:
    The corollary to the #3 above is that nouthetic counselors — the so-called “biblical counselors” — have to combat the idea of you calling out for justice or fairness or common decency.” (Meaning you don’t have any rights, not civil rights or any other rights — not if you are the average Christian. Those are only for the leaders.)

  150. Janet wrote (quoting the guy in the audio):

    I do not believe that it is biblical

    He does not believe it biblical.

    I don’t see where it’s un-biblical. Also, it’s not his life. It’s not his choice.

    God forgives sin, so even if he thinks it’s a sin for an abused woman to leave her abusive spouse, God will forgive her of it.

    The guy in your audio (per your paraphrase) said,

    “The goal of secular psychology is just to help people feel normal and function better. But is that God’s goal? God’s goal is that we become more like Christ.”

    But where does the Bible say that becoming like Christ excludes “feeling normal and functioning” better?

    There are several parts in the Gospels that say Jesus had ‘compassion on so and so,’ or ‘Jesus took pity on so and so.’ If Jesus was not concerned with people’s emotions or them functioning normally, why does the Bible say he took pity on the woman with a dead son and raised the son to life for her?

    So the reverse of that guy’s sort of counseling is to keep people stuck in pain? So why would anyone suffering want to see him for counseling? It’s like going to the dentist for a rotten tooth and the dentist refusing to remove it.

    When people are trapped in mental anguish, they don’t typically move forward. Some get so despondent that they commit suicide.

    Quoting the paraphrase of what the guy said:
    “He also explains that since we deserve hell, anything short of hell is God’s grace to us”

    But God didn’t want people to go to Hell, so he sent Christ to take our place: I take if from this that most of the time, God doesn’t want us to suffer.

    Quote: “motives of teaching that depression and anxiety are caused by something outside of the individual’s control”

    And sometimes, for some people with depression, that is the case. For some, there are biological causes for depression and anxiety.

    Quote:

    “While (some believe that) a husband’s anger, rage, harshness, name-calling, cynical and sarcastic speech, and fighting can do great emotional harm to his wife, (and) it is true that his actions will likely result in painful and and unpleasant emotions in his wife, emotions in and of themselves are not harmful.”

    But it can. Emotional abuse over years can cause someone to be depressed and even commit suicide.

    Having boundaries is a biblical concept, and part of boundaries is enforcing negative consequences on people who are misbehaving… which means, for a woman who is being abused, to leave her husband permanently.

    Just telling the wife to “submit” and stay with the guy does nothing to hold the abusive spouse accountable for his behavior and will probably not produce positive change in him.

    Quote:

    “3. “One of the key teachings biblical counselors have to combat is the idea of psychological and emotional needs.” (Meaning there are no such things.)”

    In his books, Ed T. Welch denies that humans have psychological or emotional needs, which I find really strange.

    Doesn’t Hinduism teach that suffering is an illusion? Some of these Biblical counselors, with their denials of emotional pain and psychological needs, remind me of that.

  151. @ Daisy: My take is the same as Dee’s: when talking about someone’s profession, well, we talk about the profession, not their beliefs.

    I mean, I could once have been referred to as a “Christian museum researcher,” which is extremely misleading (and can be read in several ways.) I worked in a museum, I did research (and lots of other things) and I was/am Christian. But my religious beliefs had *nothing* to do with my job, or with my profession in general. After all, there are Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, atheist, agnostic, Jain, Shinto [etc. etc. etc.] researchers who work for museums, or in museum buildings – though “in” is not synonymous with “employed by” said museum(s). (People visit museum archives, libraries and other research facilities every day – most who do so are there for a limited period of time, many are grad students, etc.)

    I would rather say that someone is a physician and Jewish (or whatever) than say “jewish physician.” It makes it seem as if the person’s religious beliefs and upbringing are more important than what they do in a professional capacity.

    At any rate… there are tons of people who claim to be xtian whose ethics and conduct are questionable at best, and an awful lot of agnostics, atheists (and people from various faiths) whose ethics and conduct are impeccable.

    Sorry to belabor this, but I hope the point is clearer.

  152. @ Lynn: Or else that mental health – and, for that matter, physical health – problems come from “bad character.”

  153. @ numo:

    How then do you want me to refer to counselors or counseling methods that are either practiced by Non Christians or possibly by Christians but not using the bible alone?

    Would “worldly,” “humanistic” or “Non Christian” be preferable? (I really hate the “Non Christian” one as it’s harder to type out).

    Understand that I am defending the use of what pro- Biblical counseling guys would call “secular.” (I don’t think all things secular are evil, bad, or anti-biblical.)

    I think it’s okay to use the term “secular.”

    I was a Christian for years and during that time I enjoyed secular entertainment.

    I find most ‘Christian’ entertainment (made mostly by Christians and primarily for a Christian audience) ham-handed, poorly produced.

    A lot of those movies are broadcast on ‘Christian’ network TBN (which has a big cross in its logo) as opposed to secular ones such as “ABC,” “FOX,” “CBS,” or NBC (with a peacock logo).

    There’s an entire genre of music called “Christian Contemporary,” which a lot of people, even Non Christians, recognize as being “Christian.” Most people understand a distinction between “Christian” music and “secular” or “worldly” music.

    You can even have Christian singers who produce music that is not necessarily Christian. Amy Grant, who is known first and foremost by most people as a Christian person who sings in the CCM market, made ‘secular’ pop songs in the ’80s or ’90s.

  154. @ Daisy:

    Noted. Thanks. I agree that “secular” is not always meant to antagonize. I was employing a bit of hyperbole I guess. 🙂 But in SGM, yeah…”secular” was definitely a four letter word. I understand that might not be true in your experience.

    Maybe the term “worldly” is more broadly belligerent.

  155. @ Daisy: I guess I was just trying to say that a doctor is a doctor.

    If someone is doing “xtian psychotherapy,” that’s a different matter entirely.

  156. @ Daisy:
    Daisy wrote:

    Quoting the paraphrase of what the guy said:
    “He also explains that since we deserve hell, anything short of hell is God’s grace to us”

    More neo Cal polemic, pseudo intellectualism.

    First, I REFUSE to concede that I deserve hell. That is a lie. I am in Christ, so I deserve life, by definition, because that is the consequence of knowing Him. What I deserve as son of God is the same my children deserve. Love and honor and affection. Only a masochist would declare a saved person, innocent before God, still deserves hell. Christians going around still deserving hell is the OPPOSITE of the gospel. This is a false teaching. A lie.

    Also? An act of mercy upon humanity by God can only be as a function of the inherent worth of people. The reason Christ came is because human beings are WORTH saving; worth loving. It is an unworkable juxtaposition to say humanity is worth salvation to the tune of divine sacrifice of Himself while perpetually deserving of hell. Yes, free actions deserve consequences…it is nothing more than cause and effect. But what humanity deserves, if it is even possible to rationalize it that way (it isnt…it’s kinda stupid), is mercy. That is the whole point of “love your enemies”. The only way to make a blanket statement like “we deserve hell” is to deny that people have any claim to their humanity.

    And here again is the scepter of my resistence.

    This stupid idea of “deserving hell” is merely more of the same Calvinist hatred of human beings. Your EXISTENCE is the root of your problem. The fact that you ARE is the crux of your wickedness. You deserve hell simply because you exist. You are God’s great mistake. You deserve hell because you are human. You are a constant affront to God because you live. The only way to remediate yourself is to remove YOU from your relationship with God. Welcome to new Calvinism. Check your SELF at the door. Kneel before your new overlords.

    And we wonder why child abuse goes unpunished in these meat grinder churches.

    These people cannot love, and that should terrify them. If anyone is deserving of hell, it is the false teachers.

  157. @ Argo: It’s funny, but in non-evangelical circles (like Lutheranism, Catholicism, etc.) a doc is a doc and a therapist is a therapist, etc.

    someone might make mention of the fact that a doc is Catholic (or whatever), but it generally doesn’t come up. either someone is a good practitioner, and indifferent one, or a bad one, period.

    There isn’t the emphasis on creating a parallel “xtian” world/society/economic base.

  158. Oy…little slip. I meant as A son of God, not son of God.

    I sounded like a Calvinist pastor there. Sorry about that.

  159. @ Lynn: Sadly, yes… and “humanist” is broadly misinterpreted/misunderstood as well.

    In the world in which I grew up, the opposite of “secular” was “sacred” – as in secular music vs. sacred music (like Bach’s cantatas). But that kind of terminology generally didn’t come up except in church music circles, or in music history studies.

  160. @ numo:

    I agree, which is why I believe the surreptitious labeling of things as “Christian” vs “secular/worldly” is to foment division and hatred as a means to compel action and to control.

  161. @ Janet:
    It is really really cheesy of them, to think they can know anything by spending a few weekends for a certificate. The combo of ignorance, judgment, and denial of human experience/being is just plain perverse.

    It has nothing to do with God. I get a little frightened for them, using the name of Christ for such a travesty.

  162. Patrice wrote:

    It is really really cheesy of them, to think they can know anything by spending a few weekends for a certificate. The combo of ignorance, judgment, and denial of human experience/being is just plain perverse.
    It has nothing to do with God. I get a little frightened for them, using the name of Christ for such a travesty.

    Hmmm…’cheesy’ is a much kinder term than I would use. 🙂

    Re this whole conversation regarding ‘secular’ versus ‘sacred’…really, I’ve come to believe that it’s a false division from men, not God. Jesus had a few things to say on this, including when he mentioned that David ate the showbread and fed his men with it…and used it as a ‘good’, example, not a ‘bad’ one…..

    Anyway, the fundy/evangelical world I grew up in (with a pentecostal/charismatic bent) was very anti-psychology. Of course everything I learned in church was tempered by the filter of the maternal narcissist who was definitely against counselors, etc. I grew up with the whole they-are-anti-god-secular-humistist-athiestic-heathens-out-to destroy-your-soul thing. It really made getting help as an adult much more difficult. I had to break through the fear barrier that I was on the road to hell if I went to a therapist.

    Here’s the thing for me….when I went through the events that pulled the blinders off, religiously speaking, where I discovered my pastor (can hardly use that term for him now) was a sexual pedator using the things he learned in marriage counseling sessions to prey on the broken women who came to him for help, everything I had ever been taught about the church was suddenly in the forefront and challenged. And these events brought all the unaddressed trauma and abuse from my childhood to the surface,as well. I was in a place where my entire religious and my entire familial paradigms were crumbling around me. I wasn’t sure my mind would survive….

    And I reached the place, through prayer and reading a variety of books and talking to the only friend I had left at the time, where I knew that I needed help sorting out the tangle of my mind – help discerning the difference between what was justnormal human living-in-a-broken-world stuff and what was reactions to the childhood abuse. That road required reading a lot, seeing a therapist (the 3rd one was a good fit – the first two weren’t bad, just not qualified in the speciality of child secual abuse), and praying a lot. And spending a lot of time walking through the memories and letting them piece themselves back together.

    The church’s solution to my plies for help were to just leave the past in the past and move on. The ‘counselor’ I talked to for all of 5 minutes actually looked frightened that I might actually tell him what happened to me. Sigh. Just quote the bible, trust God and be happy. Yeah, that really helped (not).

    Oddly, the therapist I am seeing started out as SBC, then became Lutheran and is now Catholic. She does not believe that imposing her beliefs on her clients is beneficial to them. She does, however, firmly believe that her clients beliefs are a vital part of the therapy. Quite honestly, if someone felt the need to put the title ‘Christian’ infront of their job description, it would turn me away, regardless of profession. Most who do that, in my experience, are using it to try and get an advantage and tend to not be very trustworthy….

    The whole ‘us versus them’ mentality that seems to pervade the whole fundy/evangelical side of things is, in my opinion, damaging to both those who are ‘us’ and those who are ‘them.’ More the those who are ‘us’ though.

    Interestingly, my therapist told me, at one point, that those who were raised in the Pentecostal tradition (like me) had some of the more deep seated religiously based psychological damage of any other flavor. I understand her point – she even conceded that ‘Pentecostal guilt’ is more deeply rooted the ‘Catholic guilt’ – (ha!). I would venture to say, however, that the neo-Calvinist movement is now vying for the spot….

  163. Gospel Coalition pastor Ray Ortlund is promoting a weekend event in December featuring Sovereign Grace child sex abuse cover up lawsuit defendant C.J. Mahaney. Well, I guess we know what silence means for the Gospel Coalition — wholehearted support.

    Here’s Ortlund’s advertising:

    The Immanuel Theology Group is theological training in community geared for every man and every calling. We are a growing community of men serious about Jesus from all over the country. We are united by the gospel and serious about becoming better men and leaders. http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/rayortlund/2013/06/14/immanuel-theology-group-2013-14-now-open/

    Ray Ortlund, if you think that Mahaney is an example of “gospel-saturated” leadership, I think you’re doing it wrong. And any man who is “serious about Jesus” should save his money and not waste it on this.

  164. Jeannette Altes wrote:

    Re this whole conversation regarding ‘secular’ versus ‘sacred’…really, I’ve come to believe that it’s a false division from men, not God.

    It is! God made everything and pronounced it good!

    We Christians are soooo afraid of sin. Our fear blinds us and we can’t even see where sin lies and we start shooting in the dark. We terrorize ourselves by thinking its everywhere. Total depravity plus “it’s a big bad world out there” plus “big bad world is out to get us” equals ACK!

    We tell each other that we shouldn’t look at sin done to us (such as in our pasts) or we will get cooties. We shouldn’t attend to how we wrong each other. We shouldn’t work with unbelievers. Cooties. We should constantly scour ourselves. Life is just a big cootie-infest! We vacillate between being school-yard bullies and a child trembling from nightmares.

    God isn’t preoccupied with our sin but with restoring us. God woos us. And as we are nourished by that love, blinding fear slowly drains away and we are able to see what this world is like. Then we begin to see where love _isn’t_ and we come to understand where sin lies.

    Now we can say, ““I have the right to do anything”—but I will not be mastered by anything.” Not by others who wish to order us around or by over-indulgence or by over-fastidious law obedience or by the institutional church or by the irreligious institutions. Certainly not by fear, which is cast out by love.

    ““I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive.” We want to avoid what twists and ruins the good creation. “No one should seek merely their own good, but the good of [all]….for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.”

    In this way, even after we extract the sin inference from the word “secular”, it remains a way to wall the sacred off from life. It establishes a dualism that is not actually there.

  165. @ numo:

    Hmm…my last comment read funny. It was late.

    I guess my point is that anything and anyone can be a means of God to bring healing to a person. That’s why I don’t understand the obsession with the labels.

  166. @ Jeannette – I’m glad you found a good counselor who really understood to walk with you.
    Dee said “@ Daisy: How, then, would you classify a Christian psychiatrist who works in a secular institution? Also, my husband is a Christian. When he provides his cardiology care, does he do so as a secularist physician (he is in a practice with doctors who do not necessarily share his beliefs) or as a Christian.”
    There are a lot of us mental health professionals who are Christians and work in secular agencies. This seems to be forgotten by those who espouse “godly, biblical counseling” (i.e., Nouthetic counseling) versus secular/worldly counseling. As a Christian, I have the power of the Holy Spirit within to guide me and work through me as I practice in a secular agency just as much as if I were in a Christian-based agency. If I didn’t believe that, I couldn’t do what I do. I also believe that only the Holy Spirit can inspire true godly, biblical counseling and He has a track record of using those not very esteemed by the world – or by some in Christendom either.
    Some other thoughts:
    1. Quoted from the Associated Baptist Press:
    “The resolution approved Wednesday urges Southern Baptists to ‘oppose all stigmatization and prejudice’ and supports ‘the wise use of medical intervention for mental health concerns when appropriate.’”
    Pastors are not qualified to discern “when appropriate” – when a person could benefit from medical intervention. They should refer the person to a professional for an evaluation. I wonder if this will happen.
    2. If SBC pastors really want to minister to individuals with mental health challenges or other brain disorders and to their families, they are going to have to do a lot of listening – listen to learn about these conditions, listen to learn what life is like for the person/family and what they need, listen to develop a relationship. As the saying goes, “A person doesn’t care how much you know until they know how much you care.” Caring here will involve the pastors getting educated and the best teachers will be the families.
    3. @ Alonzo “Zo” Thomas
    Insulin doesn’t cure diabetes, either. It could be dangerous if the dose isn’t right, even kill the person. Following your reasoning, do you think a diabetic should be given insulin?

  167. In the category of “I am not making this up…” OTOH, why would any of us need to make this stuff up? In the PDI/SGM church of which I was a part for 12 years, it was considered questionable to use a “secular” plumber. People did, of course, because when the toilet is backing up the you can’t leaf through the Bible to see what to do about it… Hypocrisy, anyone?

  168. A Psych NP wrote:

    3. @ Alonzo “Zo” Thomas
    Insulin doesn’t cure diabetes, either. It could be dangerous if the dose isn’t right, even kill the person. Following your reasoning, do you think a diabetic should be given insulin?

    Wasn’t there a family in the news a couple years ago who treated their kid’s diabetes with SCRIPTURE(TM)? As in the kid died and the parents are up on charges? (Though they probably call it PERSECUTION(TM)…)

  169. Janey wrote:

    Gospel Coalition pastor Ray Ortlund is promoting a weekend event in December featuring Sovereign Grace child sex abuse cover up lawsuit defendant C.J. Mahaney. Well, I guess we know what silence means for the Gospel Coalition — wholehearted support.

    “SEE HIS FACE! HEAR HIS VOICE! CEE! JAY! CEE! JAY! CEE! JAY!”
    (Humbly, of course)

  170. Lynn wrote:

    @ numo:

    Because to most it is code for Godless humanist things/ideas.

    Which is a real kicker, since Humanism started out as a CHRISTIAN movement during the late Middle Ages/early Renaissance. It was a reaction to making God and Christ so Omnipotent and Spiritual that physical humanity became NOTHING in comparison.

  171. A Psych NP wrote:

    @
    Insulin doesn’t cure diabetes, either. It could be dangerous if the dose isn’t right, even kill the person. Following your reasoning, do you think a diabetic should be given insulin?

    Psych meds ain’t insulin bro.

  172. Well, this conversation as moved quickly on and I don’t have a lot of time, so let me give some quick responses before bowing out. I continue to think that some of you just don’t read what is said. You have decided what you want to say, and it makes no difference what someone else says. That’s not a healthy way to carry on a conversation. So on to a few specifics:

    @dee,

    If people use exorcism for schizophrenia, they shouldn’t. I’m glad you agree with me on that. But many (in fact most) people who break alcoholism or drug addiction do so without a medical doctor. The point is that where there are spiritual issues, even in mentally ill people, we should deal with them as spiritual issues, not to the exclusion of others issues.

    @Patrice,

    You apparently are unfamiliar with pastoral ministry if you think pastors aren’t trained to counsel. And you are unfamiliar with the role of a therapist. I won’t delve deeply here for the sake of time and the forum. Needless to say, there are some significant problems with your whole paradigm, not the least of which is the failure to acknowledge what the Creator says about his creation. BTW, the reason I call therapy “secular” is plain, as several have already pointed out—it isn’t biblical. That’s not a pejorative, and it’s not necessarily a problem. It’s secular for the same reason that auto mechanics are secular, or physical therapists are secular. The danger is that it is used, at times (please note that so you don’t respond to something I didn’t say) … at times, it is used to address spiritual issues. It would be like going to an auto mechanic because you have a toothache, or taking your iPhone to a physical therapist for repair. And most of us reject that and with good reason. Why is it different in the mental and spiritual realm? All of the sudden, it seems that we stop thinking about stuff, and just have a knee-jerk reaction.

    One of the good things about the medical field is that most doctors know when to refer their patients to others, namely, when something is out of their area of specialty. But in the counseling/therapy realm, some do not have that understanding to know when something is out of their realm.

    @Argo,

    You continue to amaze me. You are diagnosing people from 2000 years ago (both medically and spiritually), and forcing your beliefs on them, and you think that makes sense? You think that because you think they believed something, therefore they believed it? Is there no humility for you to acknowledge that perhaps you don’t know what they actually believed?

    On top of that, you have clearly misread my statements by the same method of forcing your beliefs on me. I reject that categorically. You talk of my logic, but have no idea apparently what my logic is, because I can say with absolute authority that my logic does not lead to anything you have accused it of, which means you don’t understand it.

    You continue with “sin is subjective.” It isn’t. Sin is the objective violation of the righteous standard of God. The reason something is sin is because it violates that standard. The fact that you don’t understand the standard or disagree with it, does not make it any less true. Now some might object (as Daisy did) with the idea that some people misunderstand sin, and call something sin when it isn’t. This is true, and a real possibility. The opposite is also possible—that some people do not call something sin when it is. Frankly, your arguments make no sense at all.

    @Daisy,

    You have again failed to actually read what I said. You ask me to diagnose you at 11 years old, more than three decades ago according to you. How in the world do you expect me to do that? First, how could I form any reasonable opinion on what was going on with you when you were 11? I didn’t know you then, much less talk to you about thing you were experiencing. Second, why would I attribute it to sin? I have explicitly twice disavowed that idea, and you aren’t listening to me. You insist on asking me questions based on a position I have told you I do not believe. Why? Why not take my word for what I believe? You say I have “hammered the sin is at the root idea.” Yet that is false. I have specifically twice before, and now for the second time in this post (four times total), I have told you I do not believe that. Yet you insist on questioning me about a paradigm I don’t hold. That’s why my initial response to you was “Ask someone who believes that.” I don’t. I can’t answer you.

    Why would you go to a preacher for counseling? Because he understands life and the gospel. And if he does, he can help you with some (note that, some) of the things you are facing. If you have experience with bad pastors, that’s bad. But that makes no statement about pastors who know what they are doing. I wouldn’t suggest quoting Bible verses help you. I don’t know anyone who does. Even Jay Adams (with whom I disagree) doesn’t believe that. You have created a straw man to disagree with.

    You say, I get the notion that you think “Biblical counseling” alone should be used to treat people with depression and other problems. Honestly, Daisy, this is just wrong. I want to be kind and gracious towards you, but there is nothing I have said that could remotely be interpreted this way. Now for the fifth time I am telling you that I do not believe this. How many times will you have to hear it until you accept it? You don’t have to agree with me, but at least understand what I am saying and don’t make it up.

    This conversation is a microcosm of everything that’s wrong in the larger conversation. In between not listening, avoiding reality, and just making stuff up, very little listening is taking place. Admittedly, between those three things there isn’t much room left, but please try to make a little space to listen, even if someone doesn’t say what you wish they would say .Many of you were upset when people didn’t listen to your concerns about things that happened in your past, and rightly so. But now you turn around and don’t listen to what other people say. To quote Phoenix from 9:47 am, “Hypocrisy, anyone?”

  173. Phoenix wrote:

    Why would any of us need to make this stuff up? In the PDI/SGM church of which I was a part for 12 years, it was considered questionable to use a “secular” plumber. People did, of course, because when the toilet is backing up the you can’t leaf through the Bible to see what to do about it…

    No Rebuking the DEMON of Stopped-up Toilets? (My writing partner has run into Spiritual Warfare types who ARE that far gone. Though his example was the Demon of Burned-out Light Bulbs.)

  174. LT wrote:

    To quote Phoenix from 9:47 am, “Hypocrisy, anyone?”

    Just want to go on record that I don’t agree with LT’s comment(s) but I’m just a bit flattered that (s)he thought a two-word quote from me added weight to the diatribe.

    I guess having my words misused puts me in terrific company, right? Jesus, Paul, Martin Luther, CS Lewis…

  175. @ LT:

    LT,

    Your diatribe has effectively proven my argument. You admit that God’s standard is “objective”. And that is why your beliefs are destructive and cannot grant life. Let me explain.

    You may consider me a heretic because I say “sin is subjective”, but my appeal is simply to the truth that all reality is first and foremost a function OF MAN and his reality, and is not “outside” of him. The reason man “fell” was because he exchanged the truth of his own flesh and blood existence for an “objective” standard of morality…an absolute which was forever beyond him because it made that which is mutually exclusive to man’s existence–the theoretical moral dualism of “good” and “evil”–the plumb line for his wholly moral physical “self” before God. The reason you can never do enough good according to the objective theoretical standard of good and evil outside of you is precisely because good is ALWAYS defined by evil and vice versa. Whereas in the beginning, it was not to be this way. Man’s physical IS was all the morality he needed to be just before God.

    Add to this the fact that your claims to the “objective standard” of God cannot really be defined objectively for anyone who does not believe in God. So you go back to your tired and worn and irrational circular logic of “well…God said it; it’s in the bible; just because you don’t believe it doesn’t make it false”.

    But IF it is truly objective then you MUST be able to objectively define it for someone who is not a believer. Non-believers have every right in the world to demand rational proof of any truth you claim is objective. And if your sole argument is “sola scriptura” or some other nonsense, then you cannot claim objectivity of “sin”. It is purely sin because you accept it. THAT is not proof of objectivity. And the non believer should run from you. Anyone without a rational argument for what they believe based in the reality of man’s physical, actual context is not entitled to the time of day.

    When we make MAN the center of moral TRUTH…meaning, all reality is defined according to MAN’S context, we can begin to see a modicum of objective GOOD verses objective EVIL. We may not be able to prove God to atheists (and neither can they disprove…in fact, their faith is much less rational), but we can prove by pretty objectively the nature of true evil. Namely, those sins which observably violate the rights of INDIVIDUALS to own the sum and substance of their own life…their property, mind, and body. These are easy to define…just read the ten commandments: adultery, violating the sabbath (back then), dishonoring mother and father, theft, lying…all of these are essentially versions of the larceny of other individuals. You TAKE what does not belong to you; and criminal “taking” is pretty easy to quantify and really easy to observe. Hence, it is objective.

    And this proves my view of my faith. REAL truth finds man (and God as an Individual with His own inherent rights) at the center of it.

    Real truth is that which proclaims that man is an object worth loving. Man is the object you do not violate…all creation is for man, and man is the center of his own truth, as God intended it. And that is what Christ does. He restores our innocence…the truth and goodness of self INSIDE man; He removes this “objective standard” which was a lie from the beginning. An external standard of good and evil was NOT from God; it was the evil of the fall of man. Man was supposed to be GOOD, period. His existence was the standard of his own pure morality. The only objective sin then is a violation of man’s self. Forcing people into “objective gospels outside of us” and external biblical “roles” and all other manner of fabricated righteousness is not the gospel. It is the problem.

    Love God and love your neighbor are the sum of the law. Because real objective sin is found in revering the right of people to own themselves, and to recognize that dogmatic judging of purely subjective “sin” according to some theoretical absolute “standard” outside of humans is really a false, evil teaching.

  176. That last paragraph…it should have read: “real objective sin is found in NOT revering the rights of people to own themselves…”

  177. @ Argo:

    For the record…once again..atheism does not say that God doesn’t exist. It says that there is insufficient evidence to accept his existence as fact and still be rational.

    I freely admit He (or she) might exist, but maintain that until some empirical evidence is forthcoming, it is irrational to make changes to one’s life and operate under the assumption that God’s existence is factual.

  178. I find this discussion slightly short sited. I don’t think one can make it as black and white as “one always needs medications” or “one should never use medications”. Also, emotional lability/stability is a spectrum that changes over a lifespan. As a Christian it has been my experience that the longer one has had to learn to rely on the Lord, the easier, more meaningful, and more efficacious it becomes.

    When I was in my 30’s and experiencing severe panic attacks no amount of bible reading or listening to hymns could slay the beast. I had 2 “Christian” psychiatrists prescribe me tranquilizers and anti-depressants, and tell me that I had a chemical imbalance (based on my mother’s history) and needed these meds for the rest of my life. They used the old “you need meds like a diabetic needs insulin” argument. This was back in the 80’s. If you read much about psych drugs and psych diagnosis, you will find that the UK is years ahead of us in this, and the chemical imbalance “theory” is no longer touted as a bedrock principle as it once was. In fact, the tranquilizer that I was on for TWENTY YEARS is not allowed to be prescribed in the UK for longer than 4 weeks.

    Now that I am in my 60’s and have been off all meds for 6 years, I bitterly regret ever taking them. I won’t go into all the deleterious effects they had on my life, but it was pretty severe. It was a 2 year odyssey of pain to get off of them. Looking back, I can clearly see that when I began having panic attacks there were several external and internal causes for them. We had moved on average of every 1.5 years, I was raising 2 toddlers with no nearby friends or family for support, and had a husband whose job kept him inhumanely busy and away from home. ALSO, and most importantly, I was refusing to forgive someone close to me for something that ate away at me for years. I am firmly convinced that this was a major contributor to the dissolution of my emotional state. (I will call it sin; I was in sin.)I also believe that the 30’s is very vulnerable time for a women hormonally.

    I now see biblical/nouthetic counseling as a preventative measure to steer us emotionally away from sinking into the depths of despair and anxiety. On a very short-term, limited basis, however, a chemical reset may be needed. As a psychologist in the UK who is not particularly fond of psych meds says, “Of course they work…they work for the same reason that alcohol and recreational drugs work…they make our brains feel differently, which can be perceived as feeling better”.

  179. LT wrote:

    But many (in fact most) people who break alcoholism or drug addiction do so without a medical doctor.

    I worked in an alcoholic/substance abuse hospital for a summer. I had the experience of watching people go into seizures with delirium tremors. This was not a hospital for long term drug addicts off the street. These were well off people who had great health insurance and great jobs. We had closet alcoholics that were priests and pastors.

    I would never take the risk of telling anyone to stop drugs or alcohol cold turkey without being sure that they had medical care. I can assure you that if someone can stop drinking cold turkey without serious symptoms, then they are either lucky or they haven’t been drinking for a long period of time. Any church which does not encourage a detox under the supervision of a medical professional is risking a lawsuit.

    LT wrote:

    BTW, the reason I call therapy “secular” is plain, as several have already pointed out—it isn’t biblical. That’s not a pejorative, and it’s not necessarily a problem. It’s secular for the same reason that auto mechanics are secular, or physical therapists are secular. The danger is that it is used, at times (please note that so you don’t respond to something I didn’t say) … at times, it is used to address spiritual issues. It would be like going to an auto mechanic because you have a toothache,

    But there is a problem. Unlike a simple car repair, spiritual problems are not often simply spiritual. The Bible talks about the interaction of the spirit to the psyche. Then the psyche is affected by the physical. In other words, it is all mixed up.

    For example, my daughter was sick for years, coping with a brain tumor. I had anxiety. My pastors and small group helped me to cope with the spiritual side of things. However, the long term effects of the anxiety took a toll on my well being. Because of this, I developed GI problems that still persist, although I am no longer anxious. I am under the care of a physician who prescribes medication to keep the problem under pretty good control

    For a period of time, I would experience the symptoms to anxiety for no identifiable reason. So, I eventually went on a short course of an anti-anxiety agent which knocked my body back into whack and I was able to discontinue the medication in about a year. For that med, I was supervised by a psychiatrist. I have also sought counseling as well.

    So, there you have it. A pastor alone would not have been able to fully treat my issues. A really smart pastor should have enough training in counseling to know when and where his limits are. However, many of the programs with which I have had contact seem to give the pastor or weekend trained counselor far more breadth than I think they should.

    In the end, it is rarely “just” a spiritual dilemma but far more complex.

  180. Fendrel wrote:

    .atheism does not say that God doesn’t exist.

    But some atheists do. Could it be that you have atheist denominations?

  181. @ Fendrel:

    No, it is the assumption that God does not exist due to the lack of empirical evidence. It is that this assumption is to be held until such evidence presents itself. If there is no empirical evidence, as is the root of atheist belief, as you have said, then there is no rational reason to suppose that God exists.

    To say there is no empirical evidence for God, but acknowledge that He could indeed exist is nonsense, and wholly contrary to your already acknowledged position on the matter. If there is NO evidence, then there is NO reason to make “possibility of existence” a part of your philosophy, for you have already conceded that ANY belief in God is irrational outside of “empirical” evidence. The need for empirical evidence is the self-admitted root of your atheism.

    I don’t believe that pigs fly. If I see one fly, then I’ll believe. There is no reason to qualify my lack of belief in flying pigs by some irrelevant middle-ground between belief and non-belief.

    Fendrel, you can dispense with the double-speak and pseudo-logical qualifications of terms. I get enough of that from Calvinists and neo-Reformers.

  182. Argo wrote:

    You may consider me a heretic because I say “sin is subjective”, but my appeal is simply to the truth that all reality is first and foremost a function OF MAN and his reality, and is not “outside” of him.

    Argo,
    Fellow heretic you are in good company! Permit me to modify Franklin’s quip concerning rebellion against the British Crown to one which dissents from various doctrines of classical Western theology:

    Franklin: “We must hang together, gentlemen…else, we shall most assuredly hang separately.”

    Muff: …We must burn brightly together for conscience sake…else, we shall most assuredly burn separately…

  183. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Phoenix wrote:
    Why would any of us need to make this stuff up? In the PDI/SGM church of which I was a part for 12 years, it was considered questionable to use a “secular” plumber. People did, of course, because when the toilet is backing up the you can’t leaf through the Bible to see what to do about it…
    No Rebuking the DEMON of Stopped-up Toilets? (My writing partner has run into Spiritual Warfare types who ARE that far gone. Though his example was the Demon of Burned-out Light Bulbs.)

    Do hard-line cessationists think exorcism is of the devil?

    Sorry… I was bored. That was, as we say post-Vic-Reeves-big-night-out, very poor.

  184. However, a little less flippantly, I have ADHD. I didn’t discover this until about two years ago (in my early 40’s – I’m in my mid-40’s now). This after spending most of my 20’s in a church whose leadership simply assumed I had “issues” (a wonderful euphemistic dustbin!) in my “character” and especially with “authority”.

    So at least a part of the church thought I was a bit of an a**e (trust me, that’s rude in the UK). I have to emphasise: not all of it, and I am not even slightly tempted to throw the baby out with the sour grapes despite wishing to grasp the elephant in the room by the horns.

    But back to that portion of the church that had little time for me. So, as it happens, does a significant portion of the clinical establishment; ADHD is by no means universally accepted as a “real” condition. (Oddly, by contrast, in some parts of the west children are medicated against it at the drop of a hat. This is presumably a reflection of the western cultural belief that you can optimise your child with a combination of pills and accredited learning.) But the clinicians that do diagnose and treat ADHD offer some important stuff that the church leadership withheld. Acceptance, for one thing, and treatment/progress for another.

    Which of them was a neighbour to me? Etc.

  185. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    So at least a part of the church thought I was a bit of an a**e (trust me, that’s rude in the UK). I have to emphasise: not all of it, and I am not even slightly tempted to throw the baby out with the sour grapes despite wishing to grasp the elephant in the room by the horns.

    Nick, you are a stitch. My dear Daddy used to mix expressions like this and be very good-natured about the feminine hilarity that ensued (one wife, three daughters.)

  186. @ Argo:

    Argo, sorry but it is your statement “To say there is no empirical evidence for God, but acknowledge that He could indeed exist is nonsense,” that is nonsense.

    A lack of evidence does not prove God’s non-existence. My position is correct. Even though there is no evidence in support of His existence, I acknowledge that somewhere, at some point in the future, such evidence may present itself, therefore there is nothing wrong with acknowledging the possibility. That said, I do think that the current lack of evidence makes changing one’s life or treating His existence as a fact questionable at best.

    @ dee:

    Yes Dee, some do…and I disagree with their assessment as well. I think though that many simply believe the possibility to be so remote that they treat it as effectively zero for any practical implications.

  187. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    Nick, while some people may disbelieve that ADHD or ADD are real disorders (yes, I believe a lot of people are misdiagnosed or over diagnosed), those of us that suffer with it (I’ve had ADD my entire life…since before it was called ADD), know without a doubt of its reality.

    The medication I take has a profound effect on both my ability to get work done, my perception of the passing of time, and my ability to focus on what I’m doing, or maybe more importantly to be able to ignore what I shouldn’t be focused on!

  188. @ LT:
    LT, your attitude is condescending and even if it were ever ok to feel that way towards others, your proposals have less excuse than most. You mix partial knowledge with a mash of assumptions and call it expertise. Unfortunately it isn’t.

    I will speak only to the part of comment addressed to me. I am daughter of a pastor. I know how pastors are/aren’t trained. They are not capable of offering other than spiritual counsel and general brotherly advice. That you think they are capable shows your inadequate knowledge of psychology field.

    Decades ago, I spent several weeks in a Christian mental hospital and a decade later, was several times on psychiatric floor of medical hospital. I have been through a number of therapists, including a very short jaunt with a nouthetic, a few months with a Christian psychotherapist who was half-trained, and a pure psychoanalyst who was a mess. I have been the grateful client of a PhD PTSD-trained therapist who’d worked for 10 years at veteran’s hospital. Moreover, I have an undergrad minor in psychology and followed it up with a great deal of research. So you see, I know whereof I speak, and from many angles.

    It’s ok if you don’t want to have a serious discussion. But your self-acclaimed professionalism alarms me. Please don’t take on the mantle of counselor/therapist until you learn the field. I beg of you. Because you will harm people who are already fragile/broken, people who are dear to God’s heart, people who need warm loving hearts and wise expert minds. Not a person with sparse knowledge who jumps so easily into disdain.

  189. @ Fendrel:

    Fendrel, your equation is this: empirical evidence = existence.

    So, in light of empirical evidence as the plumb line (for you) of ACTUAL existence, where exactly does “possibility” of existence become a reasonable co-idea? In other words, what is the difference between functional non-existence of God, and actual non-existence of God, practically speaking?

    I’ll answer. There is none.

    The fact is, you cannot acknowledge the possibility of God any more than you can acknowledge the reality of God UNTIL empirical evidence presents itself according to your own equation. You may indeed think God is possible, but I’m telling you that is an utterly irrational position to hold since you’ve made it clear that only empirical evidence can equal actual existence. When empirical evidence presents itself, then you can believe. Until then, if you want to be rationally consistent, you must assume God does not exist. Conceding “possible” is irrelevant and pointless and without any foundation according to your definition of how one knows God exists.

    IF

    Empirical evidence = proof; and proof = existence

    THEN

    No evidence = no proof; which MUST = no existence, if you want to be logically consistent.

    The lack of empirical evidence precludes BOTH possible existence AND actual existence. You cannot make a rational distinction between the two unless you are willing to concede that something other than empirical evidence can be proof of God’s existence. For example, you could say, “Well, I see no empirical evidence, but there are very good philosophical/metaphysical arguments for God’s existence, and so I concede His existence is possible”.

    But if you only accept empirical evidence, and there is none, then you cannot concede existence is possible because nothing actually EXISTS by which to acknowledge the possibility of God’s existence. Your concession of possibility is rooted in literally nothing at all. Which is nonsense.

  190. Fendrel,

    What you are saying is that it is possible that empirical evidence may present itself in the future. This is not the same thing, however, as saying God is possible. You are saying evidence is possible, at which point God’s existence can be acknowledged. I understand this may seem like mere semantics, but these two ideas are quite different.

    One says God’s existence may be acknowledged later, given the possibility of evidence for Him (rooted in logical assumptions about the evolution of human knowledge).

    And one says that I believe God is possible, even though currently there is no evidence by which to believe that He is possible. Which is irrational. Because without evidence, which is the sole foundation for knowing God, it cannot be logical to assume either that He exists or CAN exist.

    It is a big distinction, actually.

  191. I am sorry that you had improper therapy and excessive use of medications. They are indeed awful to stop when not done slowly, carefully, methodically.

    I don’t now why you are arguing against black/white. No one here has said that medications are always needed. A few nouthetic types suggest that they are almost never needed, so you might take it up with them. And of course emotional stability varies – who has argued otherwise? Moreover, I haven’t read anyone here who would disagree that relying on the Lord makes life better in about every way possible. So I don’t know to whom you are talking, Really?

    Here is my experience regarding medications. I had collapsed into nasty PTSD. My brain would go into periods of painful constant jitter and was not responsive to meditation, cognitive-behavioral therapy, endless prayer, or standard tranqs. Sleep would be impossible. It would rapidly become literally unbearable. I finally learned that when I went through these episodes, an antipsychotic would still my brain within 2 days. I’d stay on the medication for a month or two, then wean off, and my brain would be ok for a while again. It took about 6 years for me to not need it anymore—I’ve not been on it for 7 years now. That antipsychotic saved my life. I am immensely grateful!

    Really? wrote:

    As a psychologist in the UK who is not particularly fond of psych meds says, “Of course they work…they work for the same reason that alcohol and recreational drugs work…they make our brains feel differently, which can be perceived as feeling better”.

    I have met psychologists like that. Their disdain and ignorance makes them unqualified for their jobs, but unfortunately the field doesn’t maintain standards as they should.

  192. @ Mandy:

    Mandy, Ms H sounds wonderful and her set-up seems ideal. What a novel concept: to help the whole person: physical, mental/emotional, spiritual. 😉

    I wish this kind of cooperation and referral was standard practice!

  193. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    (Oddly, by contrast, in some parts of the west children are medicated against it at the drop of a hat. This is presumably a reflection of the western cultural belief that you can optimise your child with a combination of pills and accredited learning.)

    More like “He or She who dies with the most Overachieved child wins.”

  194. Phoenix wrote:

    My dear Daddy used to mix expressions like this and be very good-natured about the feminine hilarity that ensued (one wife, three daughters.)

    Phoenix – glad to hear we’re barking up the same hymn-sheet!

  195. @ Patrice:

    Yes! Yes! Yes! 😀

    @ LT:

    Okay, I’m going to share a story. When I was a teenager in the church that was disdainful ofnpsychology and all things of that ilk, there was a woman who attended out church – I’ll use the name Dana. She was a sweet, middle-eged woman. Widowed mother who ran her own business from home. Love God and the church. Everybody liked Dana.

    Then, one day, something happened. Dana changed. She started to become irritable. She began not attending church. She began (oh, the horrors) cussing! It went from bad to worse. SHe let her business slide and her kids were being neglected. Now, what do you think her church family did? Did they visit her and offer to help? No. Did they do anything to reach out to her? No. They just began to shy away from her and whisper behind her back that she was backslidden. And that the personality change was Proof(TM) that she was demon-possessed. Now, the shunning began from sheer fear. Because, you know, demons are so powerful.

    Iterestingly enough, those very symptoms that got her labeled “deomn-possessed’ by her chutch ‘family’ were the very symptoms the MD was able to accurately diagnose her with. To the credit of some of her church family, when they found out the truth, the were ashamed. Amazingly, not all were…

    She had a brain tumor. As it grew, it was putting pressure on that part of her brain that affects behaviors associated with personality. She had surgery
    and had an orange sized tumor successfully removed. And when she woke up from surgery, guess what? She was back to her normal, sweet self.

    Don’t tell me pastors are qualified to counsel. Those who actually go to seminary well get maybe 2 classes on counseling – if that is even required. I have seen many people hurt by pastors attempting to operate outside their area of expertise.

  196. I hope for Dana’s sake that after surgery for her demon-ridden tumor, she didn’t remember the rejection. I’d rather people not have memories of fear-trumping-love, especially gentle persons like her.

    Pastors who believe they are knowledgeable enough to do psychotherapy are too arrogant for the service-work of tending the believer-community. If I were the Grand Standards Fairy of the Church, I’d track them down tout de suite and flourish the Twinkling-Doctrine Humbility Wand. Instantly they’d find themselves standing in the janitor’s closet, broom in hand. Wha?

    Where is that fairy, anyway? Fallen down on the job, apparently.

  197. @ Patrice:
    Being a teen under the thumb of NPD mother at the time, I had no opportunity to find out. But sadly, I think she did. Her and her family moved to another church….good thing.

    The ‘church ladies’ primarily behind theis were also the ones who later successfully ran a decent pastor out of the church over something that has contributed to coloring my view of church to this day – probably always will.

    I may have told this before – if so, sorry….

    There was a family who lived in Wisconcin and were ‘members in good standing’ with the denomination there. The decided to move to California. On the way, they passed through our town and their car broke down. Being low on cash and members of siad denomination, they got the phone book out and called the local pastor. They explained their situation – mom, dad 5 kids. Our pastor met with them in the middle of the night and got them set up in a motel. Next day, her had their car taken to his mechanic and discovered it would cost more to fix than it would to get them another car. He talked to them and they gratefully accepted the new car.

    Now, they were so impressed with his willingness to help that they decided to stay and live there. This next bit is important. The pastor paid for all of this out of his own pocket. Now, this nice young family showed up at church next Sunday morning and my dad, as a deacon jumped in and helped get them an apartment in the same complex we lived in. They attended regularly. And they were really nice people.

    But there was a problem. You see, this was the mid ’70s and they showed up to Sunday morning in jeans and flannel – all five of them. And not only did she have long hair, so did he. He also had a neatly trimmed beard. These ladies got it into their head that the pastor had helped these ‘hippies’ out of church funds and it got ugly from there. Thing is, they weren’t hippies. They were actually old school homeschoolers – like I said, the mid ’70s. They were from northern Wisconsin and they worn jeans and flannel in the winter. He was a carpenter and made and sold handcrafted furniture that was beautiful. And, as noted earlier, the pastor helped them out of his own pocket.

    But they did not fit the image these ladies wanted for the church….a year or so later, these same ladies went after my 16 years old self, but that is another story.

    To be honest, I have found more genuine care and concern and acceptance through forums like this than I ever, in 50 years, found inside the walls of a ‘church’. There seems to be too much fear and confern about image and (as Patrice noted earlier) getting ‘cooties’.

  198. @ Argo:
    The story continues down a sad trail where the new pastor they got voted in was a bad fit and things ended in a church split with 90% of the church board leaving. I think the only ones who stayed was my grandfather and the husband of one of these ladies. My grandfather was loyal to a fault. That was over thirty years ago and although the church still exists (the benifit? of being part of a large denom), it still has not recovered financially, emotionally – they can’t seem to keep a pastor, even though hardly any of the people who went then are still there. It is sad.

  199. @ Jeannette:

    The situation you describe is not unfamiliar over here either, sadly. You might call it the equally-evil alter-ego of the congregation dominated by the all-powerful visionary celebrity pastor. Namely, the congregation that is run as a social club / knitting circle for the amusement of a small shadow leadership, who have no formal position (and therefore no responsibility or accountability) but who wield all the power. No good can come of that.

  200. @ Jeannette Altes:
    As Argo said, that’d make a fine script for a movie! I imagine something between Alfred Hitchcock and Stephen King with a little magic realism thrown in. If done well, it could offer clarity to the Christian community about the nature/action of the worst kinds of evil.

    Evil congregates. It is preoccupied with twisting the minutiae of life but centered on destroying the individual, and the community comes next, in rolling waves outward. Like soil polluted by industry, life is destroyed for a long long time. It is grievous that the church of your tale remains crippled decades later. We Christians need to face/understand/deal/heal evil!

    It’s rotten to have been sunk in such an atmosphere for a total childhood and beyond! Shudder-making, heart-breaking, sanity-taking. Do you have nightmares and/or episodes during which you fall back into that atmosphere? I do; my experiences were different than yours but the underlying nastiness was similar. Sometimes, I still wake up from nightmares, sunk in the frightened/despairing/aching bewilderment of living with such malice. Occasionally during the day, via innocuous trigger, it’ll settle down over/into me like a toxic miasma. It can be incapacitating and can take hours/days to shake loose. My therapist calls them emotional flashbacks. Do you have that?

    Do you know how many of those church ladies were sociopathic/narcissistic and how many were eager followers? If you’ve not read it, track down Scott Peck’s People of the Lie. It’s useful for understanding these kinds of people/situations.

    Re the Twinkling-Doctrine Humbility Wand. It is merely a transformational device, limited to instant transportation to service jobs. Someone may find himself in a diner as a waiter, or in a hotel room as housemaid. Occasionally someone will be transported to an abandoned home in Detroit with a bag of White Castles and no car/phone/bed. They all become women. Skin color varies. 😯

    Still, I hear you. I love to think about taking the job of Grand Standards Church Fairy but I might enjoy it too much. I suspect (but not sure) it wouldn’t be good for my soul.

  201. @ Argo:

    Well, not quite. You said Fendrel, your equation is this: empirical evidence = existence but that isn’t quite accurate either. Regardless of evidence, there is no guarantee that anything is “real”, it is still only a probability. So even though I have lots of evidence that my little red fiat in my garage really exists, there is no absolute guarantee that it’s not in my imagination, that I’m dreaming, or that we are all living in the matrix. I simply cannot disprove those possibilities. What I can do is to try and make a rational argument based on the evidence that I do have, that the car is most probably “real”, and while I can still, logically, acknowledge that it’s possible I am living in the matrix, the likelihood seems so slim as to make it reasonable to ignore any implications it might have in my day to day life. The same is true of God.

    As the old chestnut goes, absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence. Certainly a lack of evidence for a particular thing, does not in way impede the possibility that it may exist even though we do not know enough about the current world to make the logical assumption that it does. For examples one need only look at anything in history…at one time there was absolutely no known evidence for germs causing disease..it did not make it untrue.

  202. @ Fendrel:

    Yes…I suppose my equation should have read: empirical evidence = foundation for reasonable belief. Good catch. Thanks.

    I do not accept any idea of probability. Something IS or is NOT. I reject also the ideas of chance as being too much like probability. Chance and probability then are merely another way humans abstractly qualify/quantify movement of objects based on previous observations.

    Since I only accept time (and space) as a theoretical coordinate system, and not as an actuality, I reject out of hand any notions of whether something is a function of a probability. Again, something IS or IS not at any given moment. There is nothing besides this which exists. Everything else is purely a function of man’s unique ability to form abstract concepts to describe his environment.

    What I mean to say is that probability and chance do not actually exist. When an event comes to pass, it has a 100% “chance” of occurring, and before it comes to pass it has a 0% chance of occurring because it does not exist. And something that does not exist cannot be said to have ANY attributes because you cannot give an attribute…a chance, a probability…to NOTHING. It is impossible to get around this truth. It is why I deny “predestination”. You cannot predestine what does not exist. You cannot do ANYTHING to ANYTHING that does not exist because 0 x anything is 0.

    And so, yes, I agree that evidence is irrelevant to reality, we just disagree on why. Evidence does not create objects or events. Neither does time, natural laws, probabilities or chances. Objects create themselves and create their actions. Everything that is, is real…meaning “physical”. How we “know” this is a different discussion.

    My point to you was that according to your own admission, belief in what is or what is possible CANNOT precede empirical evidence since this is how you determine what is a rational belief (and, presumably, acceptable to incorporate into your life). If there is no empirical evidence, then literally you cannot concede that anything is possible, because you have nothing in which to ground you assumptions of what is possible. Empirical evidence alone is reason for belief. That is the beginning and end of your plumb line. You do not get to include “possibility” in there without committing rational larceny. In your dynamic, something is or is not. Ideas on what is probable do not fit. Probability does not drive reality. Something either is or is not. Probability is irrelevant.

    And in this I agree with you: that “evidence” has no power to effect reality. The difference between you and me is that I accept metaphysical logic as an acceptable form of proof, not necessarily observable empirical evidence. In the end, it will always boil down to this. For because of our existential frame of reference, humans can only observe so much. But our ability to reason transcends this limitation. We can use pure reason to find the ultimate truth of pure reality.

  203. Empirical evidence can only be proof of itself. It cannot be proof of what is “possible”, because what is possible cannot be observed.

  204. Dee:

    Thanks for this post. It was interesting and healthy for Stephen Owensby, the proponent of the amendment to be the first to comment.

    I believe your questions to him about Schizophrenia and Bi-polar disorder were good. I would be very interested in his response, but I did not see it.

    There are some truths that should be shared by almost all Christians when this issue is discussed. They are:

    1. Godly, biblical counseling is a good thing.

    2. If a person is counseled to do something that contradicts scripture (e.g. telling a person with homosexual desires to act on those), that is not a good thing.

    3. Mental illness involves physical and mental/emotional issues that may benefit from medical and psychiatric or psychological treatment.

    It takes a lot of wisdom to practice all of these principles. Application, especially to something as tricky as mental illness, can be complicated.

    People go off the rails when they add to these truths things like this:

    1. Godly, biblical counseling is better than medical or psychiatric/psychological treatment. The truth is that they are not in competition, unless something is being urged that is not morally right (see above.)

    2. Since psychiatry and psychology have “secular” bases and founders, they are ungodly and should be avoided. Lots of fields were founded, developed and/or are practiced by people who are not Christian. That does not make the discoveries or principles untrue. Einstein was not a Christian, but the theory of relativity is true.

    3. The Bible is “sufficient” to address these issues. The doctrine of the Sufficiency of Scripture is not properly used by those who say that the Bible says all we need to know to treat mental illness. That is twisting the doctrine of the Sufficiency of Scripture.

    Mental illness is complex. We continue to learn and I hope that we will learn much more in the future.

    We should not treat mental illness the way some illnesses were treated hundreds of years ago – with superstition. We should use the best information we have to treat it and we should share biblical truth with people.

    I hope that Mr. Ownesby’s amendment is not used to say something that it does not say. Mr. Ownensby may be connected to the biblical counseling model and may eschew the concept of medical, psychiatric or psychological counseling, but the amendment does not say those things. It only states that godly, biblical counseling is good. No one doubts that, so long as the other truths mentioned are also held. And I believe that they are by most people in the SBC and most Christians.

  205. @ Anonymous:

    hello, anonymous.

    “Godly, biblical counseling is a good thing.”

    –and who gets to define what is “godly” and “biblical”?

  206. @ elastigirl: I was wondering the same thing earlier…

    Also, if only the so-called “biblical counseling” people were even 1/10th as objective and impartial as the best therapists are trained to be, they might have a point.

    But they aren’t, and, to my way of thinking, they lose all credibility on that basis alone.

  207. Patrice wrote:

    @ LT:
    LT, your attitude is condescending and even if it were ever ok to feel that way towards others, your proposals have less excuse than most. You mix partial knowledge with a mash of assumptions and call it expertise. Unfortunately it isn’t.
    I will speak only to the part of comment addressed to me. I am daughter of a pastor. I know how pastors are/aren’t trained. They are not capable of offering other than spiritual counsel and general brotherly advice.

    First, I have made no claim to expertise. In fact, just the opposite. I have begged people who aren’t experts (like most here) to not make dogmatic claims.

    Second, (and to illustrate the point), being the daughter of a pastor does not make you an expert on how pastors are trained, of what they are capable of. You simply have no idea (and I happen to know you have no idea because I happen to know what I am talking about). Having a minor in psychology and doing a “great deal of research” whatever that means, does not qualify you to have an opinion on pastoral training or the knowledge of individual pastors. And being helped by a therapist or counselor doesn’t help you either.

    Third, I will note that you haven’t refuted a single thing I have said. You have simply called me arrogant without interacting with anything. I am willing to have a discussion about ideas. But trading insults and histories won’t accomplish that. I would urge you to back off the personal attacks, and interact about ideas.

    Fourth, if you think I have jumped into this with disdain, you are clearly incorrect. Again, this is part of the problem: You don’t know me so you have no way of knowing that. Yet you see no problem with making claims you can’t possibly back up. My only disdain is for those who claim expertise and don’t have it.

  208. Jeannette Altes wrote:

    @ Patrice:
    Yes! Yes! Yes!
    @ LT:
    Okay, I’m going to share a story.

    Thanks for that story.

    How is it relevant here? How does that contradict anything that I have said? How does that prove that pastors aren’t qualified to counsel people on spiritual issues? I don’t know what the pastor(s) at the church did, and you didn’t say. But on what basis can you indict all pastors on the basis of one anecdote?

    Let me remind you and others of what I have said in a nutshell:

    Medical problems should be handled by medical people trained in the field.
    Spiritual problems should be handled by spiritual people trained in the field.
    It is possible that many problems are entirely one or the other, or a combination of both.

    If you disagree with that, fine. But recognize that I believe that there is real mental illness that should be treated by appropriate professionals for that mental illness.

    When someone has a problem like you described, the first think you do is send them a doctor for a complete check up. You explore various causes for things.

    In the end, I am not sure why you addressed that me because it doesn’t appear connected to anything I have said. My position would have ruled out the response that you describe by the church. So I am glad you agree with me, and hopefully others will follow suit.

  209. @dee

    I worked in an alcoholic/substance abuse hospital for a summer.

    By the time someone is in a facility like that, they are well past the garden variety addict that most people are. I have sent people to rehab places before, and I have told them they must stay, they are not welcome back here if they leave the facility. I have told them they must do what their doctors and counselors tell them to do. They are not under any circumstances to stop taking their medications. Most of the addicts in our society are not at this point though.

    Unlike a simple car repair, spiritual problems are not often simply spiritual. The Bible talks about the interaction of the spirit to the psyche. Then the psyche is affected by the physical. In other words, it is all mixed up.

    Exactly. This is what I have been saying all along, and many have misread it for some reason (probably because they read with prejudice). The human body was created by God as a unity, so that spiritual affects physical and physical affects spiritual (or material/immaterial if you prefer). They go hand in hand which is why the either/or approach is usually dreadfully wrong.

  210. LT wrote:

    By the time someone is in a facility like that, they are well past the garden variety addict that most people are.

    Could you describe what constitutes a garden variety addict? At which point does it become dangerous to detox without intervention?

  211. @ LT: About being “misread”: not so sure about that. You decried detox in earlier comments, among other things.

    It’s just not possible for you to backpedal at this point, because your comments above clearly state something different than what you now claim you were saying.

  212. LT wrote:

    real mental illness

    What is your standard for defining “real” (and, apparently, “fake”?) and who gets to decide on this?

    If you are not deferring to the basic standards set by mental health organizations, you are (probably) not really as trained in this as you seem to believe you are. You pretty much give that away with your use of the word “real.”

    I am troubled by your statements – are you a mental health professional? Because if so, you are flying way under the radar. I feel for your clients, believe me.

  213. The issue is simply this: there are those who are healthy and those who are not. Since it is impossible to separate spirit from body in any empirical sense, all “disorders” mental and physical should be handled by professional clinicians.

    If there is no disorder, then perhaps they can speak to a pastor about religious ideas and/or approaches to a problem. But pastors are not in a position to decide what is disorder and what is sin because that is beyond their scope of practice.

  214. dee wrote:

    LT wrote:
    By the time someone is in a facility like that, they are well past the garden variety addict that most people are.
    Could you describe what constitutes a garden variety addict? At which point does it become dangerous to detox without intervention?

    Yes, a garden variety addict is the kind most of us are familiar with. They fill the AA and NA meetings that take place every day of the week around our communities. They probably live next door to you or on your street. You would have to ask a doctor at what point is becomes dangerous to “detox without intervention” (which I imagine is probably a misstatement on your part). I am not qualified to address that issue.

  215. numo wrote:

    @ LT: About being “misread”: not so sure about that. You decried detox in earlier comments, among other things.
    It’s just not possible for you to backpedal at this point, because your comments above clearly state something different than what you now claim you were saying.

    Do tell. Where did I decry detox? And what I am backpedaling from?

    I went back and reread all my comments quickly and the only I thing I said about that was in response to Dee (Sunday 2:21 p.m) who said that most people needed medical help for addiction, and I said “But many (in fact most) people who break alcoholism or drug addiction do so without a medical doctor.” (Monday 10:59 am). Other than that I haven’t said anything about detox, have I?

    In fact, it’s interesting that even Dee says “usually” people need medical help, meaning that she agrees with me that they do not always need medical help.

    If you have some specific example of my decrying detox or backpedaling, I will be glad to consider it. I am not above being inconsistent or needing further refinement. So please feel free to let me know. But again, please read carefully so that you respond to what I actually said.

  216. @numo,

    What is your standard for defining “real” (and, apparently, “fake”?) and who gets to decide on this?

    I am referring to (not deferring to) the basic standards accepted in the community. But as you should know, not all people agree. And as I pointed out, many (if not most) do not have a category for sin which clouds the issue somewhat.

    I am troubled by your statements

    You shouldn’t be. Feel free to interact with what I have actually said. Very few here have done that. Most just respond to what they want, without considering what I have actually said.

  217. Elastigirl:

    Good point.

    But anything good can be abused?

    We should love people.

    But who gets to define “love?”

  218. I haven’t read through all the newer posts in this thread.

    When I was reading the thread earlier, I kept seeing the same 2 or 3 people saying or asserting the same things repeatedly, which were-

    part 1.
    Non Christian counseling is wrong or bad; meds are bad or wrong; meds are over-prescribed

    part 2.
    mentally ill people should accept Jesus as Savior/ use the Bible mainly or only for treatment
    —————————

    None of those points under section 1 presents an affirmative case for “biblical counseling.”

    (Instead of criticizing Non-Christian counseling or medication, what do you propose is a working solution to treat someone with a mental health disorder?)

    Even point 2 asserts but does not demonstrate or prove.

    You can keep complaining about medication all day and all night, but as myself and several other people who used to suffer from psychological problems attest, “knowing Jesus” (being saved) and studying the Bible did not keep us immune from becoming sick in the first place, nor did it heal us or deliver us.

  219. Sola scriptura and biblical counseling / nouthetic counseling

    What sola scriptura is not, by a Christian author:

    1. First and foremost, sola scriptura is not a claim that the Bible contains all knowledge.

    The Bible is not a science textbook, a manual on governmental procedures, or a catalog of automobile engine parts. It does not claim to give us every bit of knowledge that we could ever obtain. It is not a leather-bound encyclopedia of human knowledge and wisdom. Those who point out that there are truths found outside the Bible are not objecting to sola scriptura.
    ————-

    I was re-reading one of my books the other day when I came across that information above – a chapter defining sola scriptura (the scriptures alone), and where the author explains what it is not.

    The irony is that the author is addressing those who reject sola scriptura – and, as he explains, they tend to have a lot of misconceptions about what sola scriptura is and is not, which the author attempts to correct.

    I feel this discussion is pertient to these “biblical counseling” individuals who reject any, or almost any, sort of treatment outside the Bible, because I suspect a lot of them have an incorrect view of sola scriptura, too – yet they claim to believe in sola scriptura (like I said, it’s ironic).

    When I put an additional RAM card into my old computer about ten years ago, the Bible didn’t tell me how to do that: I had to buy a “Computers for Dummies” type book to learn how to take my computer apart and install the card.

  220. @ LT:

    LT,

    you said, “I have sent people to rehab places before, and I have told them they must stay, they are not welcome back here if they leave the facility. I have told them they must do what their doctors and counselors tell them to do. They are not under any circumstances to stop taking their medications. Most of the addicts in our society are not at this point though.”
    +++++++++++++++++

    LT, you appear to be making decisions for peoples’ lives, as in who and who not to send to rehab places. You portray yourself as the arbiter of who should “detox with intervention” (sending them to rehab places) and who should not.

    To me, dee’s question is simply asking on what basis do you make your decisions (understanding that one wrong decision can put a number of people in danger).

  221. LT wrote:

    In fact, it’s interesting that even Dee says “usually” people need medical help, meaning that she agrees with me that they do not always need medical help.

    I don’t think admitting that not all issues can or will be solved by purely or mostly by medical means equates to this view:

    “A-ha, people can only or always be cured or assisted with spiritual means, such as Bible reading and taking an inventory of personal sin!”

    If you look at Job in the Old Testament, he was not helped in his sickness, grief, and deep depression by doctrine, religious answers, or by theology.

    Job’s friends actually caused him additional emotional pain when they lectured him, and God corrected them later for this.

    Job’s friends told him he must have sinned and brought on God’s wrath, and babbled other religious- sounding platitudes and reasoning at him.

    The Bible indicates that Job was the most comforted and helped when the buddies kept their mouths shut and just sat next to him for two weeks in his pain.

    When the friends opened their mouths and began sermonizing at him, getting all religious with him and blaming him for his pain (and the Bible makes it clear he did not sin and bring the pain on) – that is where they started going south.

    Not all hurting people are helped with medications or shrinks (I was not -secular and Christian psychiatry books helped me a lot), but hurting people are not always helped with sermonizing, Scripture study, pondering what sin they may have done, or having verses spat at them, either.

    The Bible says to “weep with those who weep.”

    It does not say “instruct any and all types of hurting people who want deliverance from pain to crack open the Bible and read it,” or “blame the hurting person for his own pain, because you just know he or she must be in some kid of sin”

    The Bible says when people are in pain or having a difficulty in life that sin is not always the cause or root, nor are they always being punished by God. (See Luke 13: 1- 5, John 9: 1-3)

  222. @ LT: What “community” are you referring to? The evangelical church? The medical and therapeutic community?

    Or is it the nouthetic/”biblical counseling” community?

  223. LT wrote:

    I have begged people who aren’t experts (like most here) to not make dogmatic claims.

    Have you personally ever suffered from depression, bi polar disorder, anxiety or anything else, and to the point that the malady made it very difficult or impossible to accomplish daily tasks, such as showering, brushing your teeth, holding down a daily job, making or keeping friends?

  224. I was watching a repeat of the movie “Identity” the other night on cable.

    It’s about a guy who has MPD, multiple personality disorder (psychiatrists call it something else now – DID, Dissociative identity disorder).

    I took a course in abnormal psychology while in college, and we had to learn about that and other psychological issues.

    One page about DID says,
    —-
    DID is characterized by a set of one or more distinct identities that a person believes to exist within themselves.
    These identities can talk to the person, and the person can answer back.

    The identities often are formed to help a person cope with different parts of their life, and seem to have distinct personalities that are unique and different than the person’s core personality.

    Sometimes, people with DID will lose track of time or will be unable to account for blocks of time during their day.

    This occurs when one of the identities within the person takes control of the individual and engages in behaviors that the core personality would otherwise not engage in.
    (Source)

    You do have people with very severe psychological issues, to the point their psyche breaks into different personalities.

    There are people who go into fugue states – where people black out for days and wake up later, not remembering anything, or some of them wander around awake but don’t know who they are during that time.

    People with schizophrenia sometimes have hallucinations.

    I think it’s sadly naive to believe anything so severe can, or always will be, aided with Bible study or prayer alone.

    Kim Noble: The woman with 100 personalities

    There’s Judy the teenage bulimic, devout Catholic Salamoe, gay Ken and over 100 more. Artist Kim Noble talks about living with multiple personality disorder

  225. @ Anonymous:

    Hello, again, anonymous.

    You said, “There are some truths that should be shared by almost all Christians when this issue is discussed. They are:

    1. Godly, biblical counseling is a good thing.”
    ++++++++++++++

    To me, you seem to be saying that what is “godly” and “biblical” are inherent truths, like gravity = what goes up comes down, easy as pi, plain as day for all to see. I disagree.

    I can think very few things as loaded with opinion and bias than the words “godly” and “biblical”. Chances are what you think is “godly” and “biblical” are different from what I think.

    (& my skin begins to crawl when it is assumed my views on these concepts, as someone who fits the “christian” label, are the same as obnoxious, ignorant famous christian spokespersons A, B, C, D, E…..)

    It is guaranteed that were you to gather “almost all Christians” in one place, Ann Rice’s observation of christianity as a “quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous group” would be fabulously demonstrated.

    I think you were using the word with the best intentions. But, I have come to loathe the conversation ender “it’s biblical”. It is a simple-minded trump card a person in christian power plays to silence the underlings so they can make their point with as little inconvenience to them as possible.
    ++++++++++++

    You say,

    “We should love people.

    But who gets to define “love?””

    Also a good question. Do you have an answer?

    Do you consider how to “love people” to be an easily-agreed upon truth similar to “godly” and “biblical”?

    My thoughts on “who gets to define love”: I think I Corinthians 13 gives some good examples. Although it is much safer in the hands of non-religious people. The “inerrant, infallible” thing, along with black & white understanding, in much of christian thought turns this chapter into a recipe for co-dependency. In fact, it turns the concept of “love” into all sorts of non-intuitive, goofy, destructive things.

    Truly, my experience of people who do not identify as “christian” are graceful swans at ease with what love means and how to do it compared to christians.

    My short answer: love is not complicated. Healthy people understand it intuitively. Choosing love is the hard part.

  226. @elastigirl

    LT, you appear to be making decisions for peoples’ lives, as in who and who not to send to rehab places. You portray yourself as the arbiter of who should “detox with intervention” (sending them to rehab places) and who should not.

    No, when I say “sent” I mean “recommend that they go. I should have been clearer. My fault on that. On being an arbiter, I am not an arbiter of anything. I was asked a direct question and I gave an answer. Don’t read more into that statement than is there. Obviously, I (like anyone else) make decisions based on a number of things. These issues are complex. But usually by the time I am talking to someone, they are usually already in the care of a medical doctor, ironically enough, because they don’t believe that the medical field is enough of a hope for them. If they aren’t under the care of a doctor, I strongly encourage them to get under the care of a medical doctor.

    @Daisy,

    Thanks for your post of 12:54 p.m. I am glad that we agree on this. If you recall, I have never said that anyone is only and always cured by spiritual means such as cracking open a Bible, memorizing verses, praying more, going to church, etc. Those things can often be counterproductive in some ways. I have specifically disavowed that position so I am not sure why you keep directing those statements to me as if I disagree. I said all that from the beginning of my involvement here. But nonetheless, as I said, I am glad that we agree on this.

    As to your post of 1:03, I am not sure how that is relevant. We don’t judge the truth of something by the personal experience of who espouses it. Something is true because it conforms to reality. It isn’t true because it doesn’t. Personal experience doesn’t factor into that. No one asks a heart doctor if they have ever had an heart attack, or an OB/GYN if they have ever been a woman. That just seems a distraction. But the answer is yes, in any case.

    @Numo,

    In the context of that quote, it was medical and psychiatric community. Please read the whole comment in its context and you will see that.

  227. @elastigirl,

    Clarification … Above on intervention, I said I was asked a direct question and I answered. I should have said that I was given a direct response and I answered.

  228. @ LT: I have read your comment more than once and honestly, it is still not clear to me what “community” you mean – especially given your blanket statements about alcoholics and drug addicts.

    I’m not meaning to be difficult; it’s just that I feel that you are advocating some sort of separation of medical/therapeutic and “spiritual” things, and I don’t believe it’s wise – or even possible – to make those kinds of strict divisions.

    As for what you said a bit upthread about sin, well… every truly good psychotherapist I’ve known has understood ethics and morality quite clearly. I think that anything that causes harm to oneself or others is – should be – clearly addressed in both therapy and by psychopharmacologists, but SO MUCH of what a lot of well-meaning people characterize as “sin” ust plain isn’t.

    I know: I’ve been told many times that both depression and anxiety are SIN, or caused by demons. In my case, so NOT true, it’s not funny. (Ditto for chronic pain problems, etc. etc. etc.)

    Are you an M.D., or a pscyh social worker, or do you have a Ph.D. in psychology (with emphasis on therapy)? You seem very dogmatic in your statements and said above that other commenters are unlikely to understand the issus. Again, *wrong.*

  229. @numo,

    After a while, it becomes hard to carry on a conversation with people who won’t take time to read. You asked if I was operating according to the basic standards of mental health organization, and I said, yes, referring to them as the community — the mental health community.

    I’m not meaning to be difficult

    Then stop. Just read and think about what has been said by me. I don’t care if you agree or disagree. Just read and think …

    it’s just that I feel that you are advocating some sort of separation of medical/therapeutic and “spiritual” things, and I don’t believe it’s wise – or even possible – to make those kinds of strict divisions.

    Yes I am, and you should as well. Most people do, as you admit in your next paragraph. There are some issues in our lives that are spiritual and some that are physical. And sometimes they are intermixed because of our human nature. We cannot always determine why or how they are mixed, and we have to deal with the total person. So in a sense, you are correct that it is not entirely possible to make those distinctions. However, it is necessary to at least recognize them.

    As for what you said a bit upthread about sin, well… every truly good psychotherapist I’ve known has understood ethics and morality quite clearly.

    You are correct, which makes your above statement curious. Ethics and morality are in the realm of the spiritual not the physical. But remember, I am not talking about mere ethics and morality though. Ethics and morality is always tied to a worldview, a belief system.

    I know: I’ve been told many times that both depression and anxiety are SIN, or caused by demons. In my case, so NOT true, it’s not funny. (Ditto for chronic pain problems, etc. etc. etc.)

    Okay. You were given bad advice. And that destroys the whole truth about human nature? I don’t get that. When someone gives you bad advice, you reject it and move on. But realize that a lot of people would not have given you bad advice.

    Are you an M.D., or a pscyh social worker, or do you have a Ph.D. in psychology (with emphasis on therapy)? You seem very dogmatic in your statements and said above that other commenters are unlikely to understand the issus. Again, *wrong.*

    Actually to the contrary, I am very not dogmatic. If you read through this, I am one of the few who is not being dogmatic about this or that. I am saying that our human existence is complex, and there is no clear dividing between physical and spiritual. Often, both are involved in various ways in our lives, and both have to be treated. So we should be telling people, follow your doctor’s order and take your meds, and live lives of repentance before God. Both are necessary.

    Having read this, I think there are a great many who don’t understand the issues. But this forum is not a good place to discuss it because it takes a good deal more development. These kinds of soundbyte discussions are not well-suited to serious interaction and learning.

  230. @ LT: I think we are talking past each other at this point.

    So I will bow out of the convo for now.

    all the best to you,
    n.

  231. LT wrote:

    As to your post of 1:03, I am not sure how that is relevant. We don’t judge the truth of something by the personal experience of who espouses it. Something is true because it conforms to reality. It isn’t true because it doesn’t. Personal experience doesn’t factor into that. No one asks a heart doctor if they have ever had an heart attack, or an OB/GYN if they have ever been a woman. That just seems a distraction. But the answer is yes, in any case.

    It happens to be very pertinent to issues such as depression, anxiety, etc, because those who smugly act as though they for sure have the keys to the solution, or who discourage people from going outside the Bible, etc, usually have not personally been afflicted.

    I’ve seen testimonies by people such as you and similar to you (and at least one guy worked as a preacher), who, prior to getting depression himself, used to give trite, flippant advice and platitudes to congregants with depression who came to him. He also, IIRC, discouraged the use of anti- depressant meds in those people…

    Until he came down with depression himself for a few years and had to see a psychiatrist and took anti depressant meds for about two years. (He has a video online where he discussed all this.)

    Because he himself has been there, he had his eyes opened and admits his previous views were incorrect.

    He says he now tells depressed congregants who see him to seek out a medical professional for their depression and to ask about medication, and if their mental health professional prescribes pills, to take the pills and don’t feel guilty, or like they are not being a good Christian, or are not being “biblical.”

    LT said,
    But the answer is yes, in any case.

    Details, please.

    What did you suffer from, do you still have it, what cured you (if anything, unless you still suffer from whatever it is).

    (It may be you are a rarity, if you are like the lady from four days or so ago:
    There was a lady on here about four days ago who said she “found Jesus” and read her Bible and her depression lifted, and I said great for her, but that did not work for me.)

    You said,

    If you recall, I have never said that anyone is only and always cured by spiritual means such as cracking open a Bible, memorizing verses, praying more, going to church, etc. Those things can often be counterproductive in some ways. I have specifically disavowed that position so I am not sure why you keep directing those statements to me as if I disagree. So you acknowledge that…

    1. Christians can and do get mental health afflictions,
    that sometimes
    2. medication and/or psychiatry/ psychology can heal or relieve mental health issues
    and
    3. Spirituality (Bible reading, prayer etc) alone does not always work, or doesn’t work for everyone.

    If you agree to all three, I don’t understand why you keep coming back into this thread to argue with people.

    Even the book I recommended to you earlier, “Why Do Christians Shoot Their Wounded” has chapters discussing how much, when and if, personal sin plays a role in a person’s mental afflictions.

    The author of that work explained that in some cases, yes indeed, personal sin can be a cause of some issues in some people some of the time, or that reason combined with some other reasons (such as biological causes)….

    But he also cites a lot of other information (studies by other people and universities and researchers and so on, and patients he’s had) where they were sick through no fault of their own, they weren’t bringing the problem on by some sin they did.

  232. @ Daisy:

    My end blockquote tag did not work in that post, I must have left it off.

    LT’s comments end at,

    “I have specifically disavowed that position so I am not sure why you keep directing those statements to me as if I disagree.”

    My comments begin at,
    “So you acknowledge that…”

  233. LT wrote:

    Yes I am, and you should as well. Most people do, as you admit in your next paragraph. There are some issues in our lives that are spiritual and some that are physical.
    And sometimes they are intermixed because of our human nature.
    We cannot always determine why or how they are mixed, and we have to deal with the total person. So in a sense, you are correct that it is not entirely possible to make those distinctions.
    However, it is necessary to at least recognize them.

    Not saying if I agree or disagree with any or all that, but… and, so?

    Your solution for treating every one, or at least Christians, who have, say, for example, depression, is what, exactly?

    Or, are you only concerned with blame and causes, as in “the root of their depression must be sin” or what?

  234. LT wrote:

    So we should be telling people, follow your doctor’s order and take your meds, and live lives of repentance before God. Both are necessary.

    Re “the repentance” part

    Not if your sickness was not brought on by any personal sin on your part.

    The Bible says when people are in pain or having a difficulty in life that sin is not always the cause or root, nor are they always being punished by God. (See Luke 13: 1- 5, John 9: 1-3)

  235. @ LT:
    I know this is going to seem a bizzare question and it is in no way meant to be flip or sarcastic or antagonistic. It is a very serious question. Do you ever consider the possibility that you might be wrong or make mistakes?

  236. @ LT:

    “Having read this, I think there are a great many who don’t understand the issues. But this forum is not a good place to discuss it because it takes a good deal more development. These kinds of soundbyte discussions are not well-suited to serious interaction and learning.”
    ++++++++++++++

    I think that you as well as this great many understand far more than any of us would guess of each other.

    I have learned so much in these interactions. Not in the same was as in the laboratory or a semester’s worth of reading, writing, lectures (good ones, that is) and conversations with the one teaching. But much all the same, in the sense of having my own thoughts challenged and qualified and being exposed to a world of understanding, ideas, facts, impressions, interesting stories, poignant life experience, communicated with a good measure of intelligence and eloquence. Sifted by my own measure of common sense.

  237. LT said
    “and live lives of repentance before God. Both are necessary.”

    I would encourage LT to look at the post I did above, here

    I finished reading the article I linked to at the bottom of that (“Kim Noble: The woman with 100 personalities”), about a woman who has DID (aka MPD).

    The interview says, “but it seems that from an early age – somewhere between one and three – Kim suffered extreme and repeated abuse.”

    I know that sometimes children can do horrific things, such as a 12 or 13 year old boy (Eric M Smith) who assaulted his three year old neighbor (Derrick Robie) in the 1990s, so I’m not saying all children are totally angelic at all times, but…

    I can’t imagine anything this Kim Noble woman could have done at ages one to three where she would have to “repent,” that she must have sinned in a big way at age 1 to 3, and that is why she has D.I.D. now.

    Sometimes people end up with mental health problems because they were horribly sinned against, not that they themselves sinned and need to “repent.”

  238. LT wrote:

    But remember, I am not talking about mere ethics and morality though. Ethics and morality is always tied to a worldview, a belief system.

    So what conclusion am I to draw from this…

    That the only acceptable mental health professional (in your view) is a Christian can see for help is a Christian one?

    What if that Christian counselor or therapist does not have a medical degree?

    Or, what if that Christian counselor or psychiatrist assumes that the cause and treatment must revolve around personal sin and repentance? And what if the patient’s sickness was not brought on by his/her sin?

    I wouldn’t have found dwelling on my sin or supposed need of repentance helpful at all, any more than many abused or depressed people found secular Freudian approach of, “so, let’s spend the next ten years discussing your mother” helpful.

    (Some people may find dwelling on their childhood helpful in therapy sessions, but a lot of people, from what I’ve read, have been harmed by this method.)

  239. LT wrote:

    Okay. You were given bad advice. And that destroys the whole truth about human nature? I don’t get that

    I’m a little concerned with the “human nature” phrase.

    Even though she said she has been told previously by other Christians that her back pain and depression were caused by sins or demons (even though they were not), and you said, ‘well that is just rotten advice…’

    Then what gives with the “human nature” term?

    Using that phrase seems a round about way of sneaking the ‘humans are sinners and need to repent, and personal sin is why they have depression and other problems’ view into things.

  240. @ Daisy: to clarify: chronic pain (not necessarily chronic back pain), depression, anxiety.

    but then, a lot of MDs think very real chronic problems (not just chronic pain) are all in their patients’ head.

  241. LT wrote:

    Actually to the contrary, I am very not dogmatic. If you read through this, I am one of the few who is not being dogmatic about this or that. I am saying that our human existence is complex, and there is no clear dividing between physical and spiritual.

    So… you want to say it’s a little of both(?)

    You’re wanting to argue for each and every mental health malady, for every one, the cause is both spiritual (e.g., personal sin, lack of repentance) and non-spiritual (e.g., biological causes) (?)

    If that is what your position is, I still disagree. There may be some people for whom that is true, but it is not true for everyone.

    There are some people with some conditions where it is fully medical, or due to having been sinned against by someone else (see this post), and there is no personal sin in play at all.

    One reason I find this whole conversation so distasteful is that it reminds me of domestic abuse and child sex abuse cases we’ve read about on this blog and others, like the case where a group of church people forced a toddler to apologize and forgive her adult rapist – you know, because ‘she’s a sinner too.’

    I guess some people cannot fathom, or will not accept, that sometimes some people are 100% innocent of whatever sickness or abuse they have endured.

  242. numo wrote:

    but then, a lot of MDs think very real chronic problems (not just chronic pain) are all in their patients’ head.

    That sounds familiar.

    My Mom went through that.

    She had a disease for decades, the doctors couldn’t figure it out for years, until around the mid 1990s or early ’00s, when doctors discovered the existence of this disease she had. (Then the doctors began treatment on her.)

    Until then, they kept treating my Mom like she was a nut, and the sickness was in her head.

    Like you, I may bow out of further exchanges with LT.

    I’m not really sure where he’s coming from…
    He says he’s not opposed to medication and so on, but the underlying tenor I get from his posts seems to say otherwise, that he is of the ‘blame the victim’ mindset, that if you have depression, you must be partly at fault for it, etc.

  243. LT wrote:

    These kinds of soundbyte discussions are not well-suited to serious interaction and learning.

    Typical. I have a feeling ANY format LT does not get to determine we will find is not “well suited to serious interaction and learning”. Define premises much, LT?

    LT’s problem is common in neo reformed interpretive assumptions. The physical and the spiritual are two mutually exclusive realities fighting for dominance within a single person. It is one or the other, or both; but in this case “both” simply means that at any given moment it could be one or the other, and it isn’t always possible to tell which.

    The problem is, again, that the “whole” person isn’t really a whole person at all, but an amalgamation of competing forces attempting to define an impossible singular reality in a single person who cannot possibly exist. This is the Gnosticism implicit in the false theology. Remember, to these people you are never you. That is their root assumption.

    Never forget this. EVERY doctrinal view they have is rooted in idea that YOU are purely a mirage. You have no self. You are a dream-like bystander to your life. You are merely the functional extension of powers which have already determine your outcome. Thus, nothing about YOU really matters. There is no psychology. There is depravity and “grace”. Thats it. Neither have anything to do with YOU. LT’s lip service to “medicine” is nothing more than Calvin’s false moral dualism.

    A person is one physical being. There is no actual distinction between physical and spiritual. When you base your understanding of human beings on irreconcilable notions of two separates equalling one IS, you destroy people. People’s lives are illusions. This makes it virtually impossible to empathize. And the underlying rage in LT’s comments is a symptom of this…or can be.

  244. @Daisy,

    That’s quite a bit there. I need to finish up here, and it is likely that, as Numo said, we are talking past each other. But let me hit a few things.

    1. Why come back? Because I think you are misrepresenting me. You seem to have everyone pegged in one of two categories, and you are misreading what I am saying. So I keep coming back with the deluded hope I might be able to clarify. You seem to think that anyone who says that some cases of mental illness may have a spiritual component are saying that all cases of mental illness only have a spiritual component. I have repeatedly told you what I believe, and I find it hard to imagine a reason why you keep missing that point.

    2. My personal history is not pertinent in the least. Again, if something is true, it is true no matter who holds it or what they have experienced. I have always been hesitant to talk about it. I have been more open in the past few years when I think it could help someone. But I don’t talk about it much, and partly because I know how easy it can come back. But I will answer: I have suffered with depression extending back twenty years or so. The most severe was about five years long beginning twenty three years ago, of which about two were largely suicidal. I experienced almost daily thoughts of suicide. In the end, obviously I didn’t do it. Since then I have had episodes lasting anywhere from two months to six months, the most recent being last year. During these periods, I struggle to get out of bed. I come to my office and sleep for hours on end, and then have periods where I barely sleep for days. I have no focus on anything. There is nothing at all hopeful in my life. I cry for no reason at all. I eat barely enough to survive. I can’t even express the reasons why it comes or why it leaves. The only thing that keeps me going in the recent ones is my kids. During these episodes, I did not take meds, but that route is not one I would recommend for everyone. It probably prolonged it, but such is life.

    3. You ask Your solution for treating every one, or at least Christians, who have, say, for example, depression, is what, exactly? My response that there is no solution for treating everyone. People are different and responses and treatment needs to be different. As you have said, and we all know, the same thing doesn’t work for everyone. As I said, I wouldn’t recommend people take the route I took.

    4. Regarding repentance, again notice how you just blew right past what I said and have said, and went for a conclusion you apparently predetermined. I said nothing about the particular cause being sin, did I? No, of course not. But you assumed I did. The fact that so long as we are in this life, we are all sinners and, whether suffering or not, we have responsibility to live lives of repentance. I don’t think my depression was brought directly by sin. I think I had some sinful responses during it. There are many people who suffer because of someone else’s sin, and you address that here often on your blog. And I am glad for that. But even they need lives of repentance before God, even when their suffering is not due to their own sin, or even due directly to anyone’s sin.

    5. You say, That the only acceptable mental health professional (in your view) is a Christian can see for help is a Christian one? No, I wouldn’t say that. All things being equal, it would be better. But rarely in life are all things equal.

    6. You ask about “human nature.” All that means is that humans have a nature, and we all have it. That nature is material and immaterial. The immaterial is a complex of attributes that stem from the image of God in us. Both material and immaterial affect each other. You are correct that “humans are sinners and need to repent.” You are incorrect that “personal sin is why they have depression and others things.” We must be nearing a dozen times in this discussion that I have specifically disavowed that notion. So I ask, why keep bringing something up and attributing it to me when I have specifically said I don’t believe it?

    Daisy, I appreciate the conversation here and hopefully there is enough to think about for people who are searching for some answers.

  245. Jeannette Altes wrote:

    @ LT:
    I know this is going to seem a bizzare question and it is in no way meant to be flip or sarcastic or antagonistic. It is a very serious question. Do you ever consider the possibility that you might be wrong or make mistakes?

    Not bizarre at all. I live daily with an awareness of my own frailty. It’s why I study and search for answers. I am wrong and make mistakes often. Thanks for asking.

  246. LT wrote:

    Both material and immaterial affect each other. You are correct that “humans are sinners and need to repent.” You are incorrect that “personal sin is why they have depression and others things.” We must be nearing a dozen times in this discussion that I have specifically disavowed that notion.
    So I ask, why keep bringing something up and attributing it to me when I have specifically said I don’t believe it?

    Because you keep dropping little phrase or comments that seem to belie that thought.

    I’m confused by this, you wrote:

    “You are incorrect that “personal sin is why they have depression and others things.””

    I never said that personal sin is the cause of all depression, and you seem to be attributing that view to me, or else you were saying I was saying that about you(?)

    I agreed with most everything else in your post.

    You said, “My personal history is not pertinent in the least”

    Personal history and experience is still relevant, though. I still disagree with you on that.

    Usually people who have not personally had experience with depression, anxiety, etc, have no idea what it’s like, and these are the usually the Christians who tell Christians to “just pray” or “read your Bible” etc.

    Once those types come down with depression or some other problem themselves (and discover that Bible reading and repenting does nothing to help), they gain insight and understanding and change their tune.

    You said,
    in this life, we are all sinners and,

    Yes and no… people who have accepted Christ are forgiven sinners.

    Even Christians may still sin on occasion, and suffer from living in a fallen world, but folks who dwell too much on the “we are sinners, we are sinners!” make me uncomfortable.

    You said,
    “and you address that here often on your blog”

    I’m just a commentator here; the blog belongs to Deb and Dee 🙂

  247. @Daisy,

    You’re wanting to argue for each and every mental health malady, for every one, the cause is both spiritual (e.g., personal sin, lack of repentance) and non-spiritual (e.g., biological causes) (?)

    Let me rehearse a few things here: On Saturday, you asked Where is the Bible verse that says all clinical depression, or a majority of it, is due to personal sin? And I responded with Don’t know. You would have to ask someone who believes that. Doesn’t that clearly remove the cause for continued questioning on this topic?

    On Sunday at 1:41 I repeated this. I further said, depression can be physiological or it can be spiritual, or they might be connected and That doesn’t mean that all depression is sin, or stems from sin. There again is an explicit statement about the topic.

    In my post on Monday at 10:59 am, three more times I explicitly said I do not believe sin is at the root of all mental illness.

    This morning at 10:14 I mentioned medical and spiritual problems and said, “It is possible that many problems are entirely one or the other, or a combination of both.”

    This afternoon at 1:53 I said, I have never said that anyone is only and always cured by spiritual means such as cracking open a Bible, memorizing verses, praying more, going to church, etc. Those things can often be counterproductive in some ways. I have specifically disavowed that position.

    Today at 2:19 in response to Numo, I said he was given bad advice when he was told that depression and anxiety are sin caused by demons.

    So let me ask you, where in the world does your question come from? Wherever it came from, it was in spite of my words, because I have multiple times specifically addressed that question and answered it that I do not believe that.

    I’m confused by this, you wrote:

    “You are incorrect that “personal sin is why they have depression and others things.””

    Yes, weak writing on my part. You attributed that to me and I was disavowing it. Sorry for the confusion.

    people who have accepted Christ are forgiven sinners.

    True, and how wonderful God’s grace is.

    I thought you were one of the moderators here. My apologies.

    Again, I will try to bow out. I have tried to be explicit about what I believe, and evidently have failed, but thanks for the exchange.

  248. @Argo,

    I wrote a long response to your previous post and decided to skip it since I didn’t think it would be productive.

    I just wanted to say regarding this comment that there is a reason that psychology and counseling books are hundreds of pages long and students must read multiplied thousands of pages in their training … It can’t be adequately discussed in an internet blog forum.

    And I have no rage. In fact, I am too often apathetic. I don’t care enough to get mad. But I would say that I don’t know anyone who would be described by your descriptions. I would urge you to reconsider that. It might be a good time to pick up a book or two and work through several hundred pages.

  249. Argo wrote:

    LT wrote:
    These kinds of soundbyte discussions are not well-suited to serious interaction and learning.

    Typical. I have a feeling ANY format LT does not get to determine we will find is not “well suited to serious interaction and learning”.

    @Argo,

    I wrote a long response to your previous post and decided to skip it since I didn’t think it would be productive.

    I just wanted to say regarding this comment that there is a reason that psychology and counseling books are hundreds of pages long and students must read multiplied thousands of pages in their training … It can’t be adequately discussed in an internet blog forum.

    And I have no rage. In fact, I am too often apathetic. I don’t care enough to get mad. But I would say that I don’t know anyone who would be described by your descriptions. I would urge you to reconsider that. It might be a good time to pick up a book or two and work through several hundred pages.

  250. Just to clarify, I am Abbess Numo of the Church of the Holy Chocolate (TWW branch).

    Not a guy. 😉

  251. It might be a good time to pick up a book or two and work through several hundred pages.

    LT,

    It is a form of aggression, hence the phrase “passive agressive”.

    What you think does not necessarily define the true nature of the ideas you assume. You have stated the separation of body and spirit clearly. I have not misquoted you. These are clearly exclusive notions. That they exist in a person must make the person a bystander to his/her self. The only way to reconcile man then is to assume he is a contradiction. For how do you explain what man is, then as a singularity? You cannot. He is ever a “mixture” of spirit and body. This is an impossible position for him to be in

    Or, we agree that man is one. In which case, spirit and soul are merely qualifications of how man moves (acts, thinks, etc). This makes man an objective individual self, driven fully by his own ability.

    When we can see clearly to accept this, we can begin to make real and effective treatments for what ails him/him. There is no ACTUAL dichotomy of man in spirit and body (though there may be one metaphorically). All issues are physical issues because man is physical.

    And this is why religious belief systems are not suitable for counseling. They are only suitable for teaching.

  252. Argo wrote:

    It is a form of aggression, hence the phrase “passive agressive”.

    IT’s not aggressive at all. It was a recommendation about how one might acquire more knowledge on a topic.

    What you think does not necessarily define the true nature of the ideas you assume.

    Yes indeed. Have you considered this for yourself?

    You have stated the separation of body and spirit clearly.

    Such as when I used words like “unity” to describe it (Thursday at 10:14am)?

    He is ever a “mixture” of spirit and body. This is an impossible position for him to be in

    And yet, look how well we do living with this “impossibility.” It also strikes me that death is a clear refutation of this. When a person dies, we have body without a spirit. Now, we might debate what happens the spirit, but no can debate that it is there with the body. They are, in death, clearly separable.

    And this is why religious belief systems are not suitable for counseling. They are only suitable for teaching.

    The fundamental nature of counseling it teaching. It is teaching one, through various means, how to deal with the issues of life.

    As you state in the opening, what you think doesn’t necessarily define the true nature of the ideas that you assume. And you assume a lot that is not borne out either in the revelation of the God who created us, nor in the experience of the world that we live in. You use a lot of big sounding ideas, but they don’t really mean anything substantive, and they contradict what we all know about the life that we have on earth.

  253. Pingback: Week Links #7 | jamie calloway-hanauer

  254. dee wrote:

    Steven

    Sisters (and Brothers reading),

    Please forgive me for my error. Thank you for the opportunity to further share my thoughts.

    I do believe the Bible to be sufficient to address the issues of the soul that disorders like schizophrenia or bipolar bring to the surface. It is those soul issues that are primary and affect our eternity.

    The problems associated with the body have a direct affect upon the soul. The problems of the soul have a direct affect upon the body. Christianity teaches that have two fundamental parts joined into one human person. This certainly is a theological commitment, however notice that the sum of this commitment presents one human person, not two fundamental parts.

    I did know a lady and her family for years who suffered from schizophrenia . She has since passed away, however in talking with that family they made it clear to me that many of the personality (soul) problems which her schizophrenic body problems amplified were already present long before her first major episode. Those soul problems were passed off as ordinary because on the surface they appeared to be like every other child or young adult. The Bible calls such problematic behaviors such as selfishness sinful and provides the remedy for them in the cross of Christ.

    This same lady did not receive any ministry from the local church other than a cursory visit in the nursing home in which she had been placed. Why? Because they were confused over the idea that her illness had no soul component which Christian ministry addressed. Thus, why minister to someone who their gospel could not help.

    This is the crucial issue. If mental illnesses or disorders do not have some connection to sinfulness or suffering (I define this as the affects of sin that has been done against you), then what help can Christ and his gospel offer to them? What should the church actually do? Christ came to save sinners and to destroy the power of sin and suffering over us (Romans 6:6-8). Thus if these disorders have some connection to the sinfulness in this world, the bondage can be broken.

    PLEASE HEAR THIS! In saying that I do not say that the body problems associated with schizophrenia will automatically be healed by Christian ministry anymore than I would say that a person with heart disease will be healed as I pray for them before surgery. What I do say, is that the pastor, church member, and Christian family member should minister the good news. Tell those suffering that Jesus can redeem them from issues both body and soul, if they will trust Him. This offers hope for renewal and a better perspective than the misery of a body that will never work right.

    The victory now over such issues may only be partial. But Christ’s fulfilled salvation comes at his return. He promises restoration of our redeemed souls to our resurrected and perfected bodies. Only at that point will all disease and suffering cease.

    Letting the Shepherd Lead,
    Steven R. Owensby

  255. @ LT:

    LT

    I am claiming man is only a body. Everything is derivative of that. How does that contradict reality? Your irreconcilable notion of man being a conglomerate of two mutually exclusive absolutes is what is irrational.

    You cannot explain man at all, and that is because your assumptions leave you with no idea who or what man really is.

    And no, we are NOT doing well. Have you heard about the ongoing sexual abuse of children in the church? Clearly, there is something screwed up with how many Christians view people.

    That statement was passive agressive. Being “blunt” is a form of pathological aggression.

  256. Comment removed by editor. Bridget is too smart! She caught a mistake made by one of the TWW people which was rather amusing. If we ever make money, we are hiring Bridget to be our proof reader. Bridget did nothing wrong, btw!

  257. JustSomeGuy wrote:

    I think we should use what works. And I don’t think God disagrees. Certainly, we can explore new ways, new avenues of treatment. But if those don’t work, then we shouldn’t keep trying to push them in lieu of better options.

    Love this. For those of you who seek to share your “good news,” one thing that keeps me from your door is what appears to be your utter lack of concern for outcomes. There’s way too much “Do what I say, not what works for you. If it doesn’t work for you, you’re not doing it right. Try harder. Rinse, lather and repeat,” in many churches. Does anyone know why?

  258. Steven R. Owensby wrote:

    Tell those suffering that Jesus can redeem them from issues both body and soul, if they will trust Him

    I was saved before the age of ten, and depression began around 11, and I also had anxiety attacks.

    Knowing Jesus, trusting him, reading the Bible, and all that did nothing to prevent me from developing depression and anxiety.

    The Bible no where promises Christians they will never suffer physically, psychologically, financially, or socially.

    I don’t understand why some Christians assume only Non Christians can or will develop (or are born with) depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder and other issues. Christians get afflicted with these things too.

  259. I just saw this story (link below). I’m not opposed to people who find healing via prayer alone, or who say Jesus healed them – that is fine.

    But, I know in my experience (I had clinical depression and still have anxiety attacks on occasion), that prayer and Bible reading alone did not help me.

    Some people need to take medication. They can’t just toss it out after a prayer or two.

    I’m concerned that over emphasizing these “miracle” type stories will cause some Christians to not seek out medical care to start with, or influence them to stop taking medication they need, if they’re already using it.

    Also, these kind of stories can be so discouraging to people who have suffered from mental, psychological, or some other kind of problem for years, and who have prayed for years for God to deliver them, but God has not delivered them.

    Theses supernatural “Jesus healed me instantly” testimonies, while meant to offer hope to people, can actually make people feel worse.

    If you’re like me (had depression for over 20 years), or my mother (who had depression, but was more bothered by physical health problems for about three decades), and you pray your heart out and genuinely are counting on God for a miracle/ deliverance for literally decades and don’t get a healing, it brings you down so very much.

    You question why God is answering prayers of other Christians but not yours.

    One of the ladies in this story said after she heard Driscoll talk about healing, she turned to Jesus, was delivered from depression overnight, and threw away all her medications etc:

    Mars Hill Church Members Share Miracle Stories After Mark Driscoll’s Sermon on Healing

    Another aspect of this that bothers me, is that Driscoll is coming off like a TBN “Wealth and Health” preacher with this new found interest in healing sermons; he’s been all over the map theologically, and which views he takes on and espouses.

    Driscoll buddied up to Wealth and Health pastor TD Jakes about a year or two ago.

    Originally, Driscoll was flirting with the emergents, than drifted into Neo-Reformed views (Neo Reformed guys makes lots of money off books and conferences).

    Maybe I am wrong, but Driscoll appears to be an opportunist, glomming on to any and every Christian movement/ school of thought/ theology that can bring him more fame and money.

    And you know for 40+ years, TBN and many of its preachers has made bucket fulls of money with this healing/ wealth and health teaching.

  260. Pingback: Counseling for the Soul in Distress: What Every Religious Counselor Should Know About Emotional and Mental Illness, Second Edition · WWW.INFOWEBHUB.NET