Intro to Nouthetic (Biblical) Counseling and Its Founder, Dr. Jay E. Adams

"Nouthetic counseling is counseling that uses Scripture to confront people about their sin with the goal of helping to restore them to usefulness (Gal. 6:1)."

NANC History

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=4031&picture=holy-bibleHoly Bible

Several years ago we began receiving some comments and correspondence from individuals who had been exposed to Nouthetic counseling.  Dee was familiar with it and wrote a post entitled You Are a Dirty Rotten Sinner; The Schizophrenia is all in Your Head!  I, on the other hand, had never heard of it – praise God! 

We were pursuing a number of other intriguing topics at the time, and I never got around to investigating this controversial counseling technique.  In recent days Nouthetic counseling has come to our attention again, and I have decided to research it thoroughly and share my findings.  I know that some of you are experts when it comes to counseling, and I hope you will bear with me as I explore this topic.  My goal is to write a series of posts on Nouthetic counseling as I have time to explore it.  Your ideas/suggestions are always appreciated.

The founder of Nouthetic counseling – also known as biblical counseling – is Dr. Jay E. Adams.  He began this movement in conjunction with his groundbreaking book Competent to Counsel.  Dr. Adams is the founder of the Institute for Nouthetic Studies (INS), and according to the INS website, Adams also founded the National Association of Nouthetic Counselors (NANC), and the Christian Counseling and Educational Foundation (CCEF). (link)  More on those organizations later… 

What is "Nouthetic" Counseling?

Here is the answer according to the INS website:

While the name is new, the sort of counseling done by nouthetic counselors is not. From Biblical times onward, God's people have counseled nouthetically. The word itself is Biblical. It comes from the Greek noun nouthesia (verb: noutheteo). The word, used in the New Testament primarily by the apostle Paul, is translated "admonish, correct or instruct." This term, which probably best describes Biblical counseling, occurs in such passages as Romans 15:14:

"I myself am convinced about you, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, and competent to counsel one another."

In that passage, the apostle was encouraging members of the Roman church to do informal, mutual counseling, something that all Christians today should learn, as well. On the other hand, the leaders of a congregation are to counsel nouthetically in a formal manner as a part of their ministry:

"Now we ask you, brothers, to recognize those who labor among you, and manage you in the Lord, and counsel you" (1 Thess. 5:12).

The Wikipedia article on Nouthetic counseling gives some insight into why this form of counseling came into being.  It states:

"Nouthetic counseling (Greek: noutheteo, to admonish) is a form of pastoral counseling that holds that counselling should be based solely upon the Bible and focused upon sin, and that repudiating mainstream psychology and psychiatry as humanistic, radically secular and fundamentally opposed to Christianity. Its viewpoint was originally articulated by Jay E. Adams, in Competent to Counsel (1970) and further books, and has led to the formation of a number of organizations and seminary courses promoting it. The viewpoint is opposed to those seeking to synthesize Christianity with secular psychological thought, but has failed to win them over to a purely Biblical approach. Since 1993, the movement has renamed itself Biblical counseling to emphasize its central emphasis on the Bible."

Here is Dr. Adams addressing some questions that are often asked about his counseling method: 

How can one become "Competent to Counsel"?

Isn't Nouthetic counseling just a form of behaviorism or moralism?

Has Nouthetic counseling ever been studied empirically?

We encourage you to explore the INS website where you will find the Course List and the response to the question Why Study with INS?

Dr. Adams and his INS colleagues are critical of other training programs in biblical counseling offered at conferences.  Here are their concerns under the subheading effectiveness:

"Training in biblical counseling is available in many places and is often offered at a one week conference or over the course of several weekends. While good information is usually presented at these venues, we believe they have a number of limitations.

First is the amount of material presented. While these conferences meet the minimum amount of training required by NANC for certification we do not believe three weekends of training or five days of study is sufficient to prepare the student to counsel effectively.

Second, these venues require the student to assimilate a large amount of information very quickly and does not allow the student time to read any accompanying textbooks that would further explain the concepts being presented or to think through each topic before having to move immediately to another the next hour. At INS the student can move through the material at whatever pace is necessary to grasp the material."

While we are glad that Dr. Adams sees the weaknesses in other training programs, we believe the same weaknesses can be found in his online program through INS.  There are serious psychological problems in the population at large, and we do not believe that pastors and laypeople will ever be able to deal with them effectively through Nouthetic counseling.  No, there are conditions that definitely require professional intervention.  

The Wiki article cited above concludes with these statements which are critical of Nouthetic counseling:

Nouthetic counseling has been criticized for the way its "rational and certain approach can come across as impersonal, emotionally distant, and insensitive."

Nouthetic counseling is viewed as highly controversial by secular psychologists who believe that it is unethical to counsel that the Bible has the answers for all people of all backgrounds.

Some counselors believe that nouthetic counseling can do considerable harm to patients. In addition to techniques which critics consider ineffective, patients who are not helped by nouthetic counseling often consider themselves to be "unfaithful" or religious failures.

We're just getting started on Nouthetic (biblical) counseling, which is growing in popularity at seminaries and churches around the country.  We are cynical about such training and see a striking parallel in this commercial.  More to come… 

Lydia's Corner:  1 Samuel 22:1-23:29   John 10:1-21   Psalm 115:1-18   Proverbs 15:18-19

Comments

Intro to Nouthetic (Biblical) Counseling and Its Founder, Dr. Jay E. Adams — 163 Comments


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    Jay Adams wrote: ” While these conferences meet the minimum amount of training required by NANC for certification we do not believe three weekends of training or five days of study is sufficient to prepare the student to counsel effectively.”

    I think he has this in mind:

    http://www.cbcmoscow.com/training/counseling-in-a-week/

    http://www.dougwils.com/Shameless-Appeals/counseling-in-a-week.html


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    "Nouthetic counseling is counseling that uses Scripture to confront people about their sin with the goal of helping to restore them to usefulness (Gal. 6:1)." (Subheading above)

    So….this statement is – right out of the gate – equating counseling with confronting sin. Words fail me. Then it implies that those in need of this ‘counseling’ are useless until the confrontation restores them. There are so many ways this is wrong and insulting and dangerous and even deadly….not to mention arrogant and ignorant. Okay. Taking deep breaths and calming down.

    First of all, here’s what Galatians 6:1 actually says…

    “Live creatively, friends. If someone falls into sin, forgivingly restore him, saving your critical comments for yourself.” – Gal. 6:1 The Message

    Assuming (for the sake of argument only) that sin is the issue, I can’t see how this ‘counseling’ model keeps its critical comments to itself. To cite Galatians 6:1 as the foundation of the method and then not heed the admonition in said passage is…well, it is typical of the ‘Bible only’ mindset.

    However, as has been discussed in the Gothard thread, when someone who has suffered abuse – especially severe abuse – seeks help, the absolute last thing they need is to be told they're to blame because of their own sin. I really am finding words hard for this…..

    The only words that come to mind right now are pretty much all going to end up in the bleeped category, so….

    I know there are some reading this blog who think that Nouthetic / Biblical counseling is good and right. Take it from someone who has lived through teachings on the line while suffering abuse and emotional/mental difficulties….It. Is. Dangerous. It. Is. Damaging. Period.


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    The first time I was introduced to Jay Adams speaking was a video streaming of his talk at Jeff Noblitt's church. It was a conference for young pastors about church discipline.

    I was appalled at what he taught and he lost me when he ADDED a step to Matthew 18 that was NOT in the bible. He added that we are to take it to the elders before we take it to the entire church. Sorry but that is not in there. He claims it is inherent in that passage.

    And the young men just ate it up. I wrote him off after that.


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    Jeanette, A lot of pastors or ministry folk already practice a form of Nouthetic counseling without using the name. I was almost always appalled at how ministers in the mega industrial complex handled issues. It got to the point I wanted to warn folks to not even discuss their problems with them. They would always point back to that person no matter what the issue was. Was abused by husband? Well, you have to take at least half the blame. Partner embezzled from you? Well, you have to take half the blame. It would get to the point it was more convenient to be the abuser or criminal cos you got a pass! After all, you were not stupid enough to approach the church for counseling. It was the decent person seeking help who got the blame! Why can't they just say: That was evil. Period?


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    @ Deb:

    So NANC is doing the very thing that nouthetic.org advises against?


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    The long article by Adams on Schizophrenia (cited by Dee) is no longer on nouthetic.org, but can be read here: http://web.archive.org/web/20120429214500/http://www.nouthetic.org/resources/from-the-pen-of-dr-adams/grist-from-adams-mill/261-the-christian-approach-to-schizophrenia.html

    The current site has this shorter article: http://www.nouthetic.org/but-what-about-schizophrenia-should-i-attempt-to-help-schizophrenics

    The shorter article is more bizarre. Here is part of it:

    “Don’t accept the claim that a person is “out of touch with reality” unless some organic cause for “catatonic” behavior has been detected. Counsel the individual as if he is in touch with reality. If what you say is threatening enough,*** he will respond. Try to learn what it is he is attempting to avoid. Investigate each case to discover what is behind it, and counsel accordingly.”

    *** For instance, “If you will not talk or take care of your personal needs, we will have to leave you here to soil your underwear and deficate [sic] in your clothing.”


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    Nicholas wrote:

    *** For instance, “If you will not talk or take care of your personal needs, we will have to leave you here to soil your underwear and deficate [sic] in your clothing.”

    Hmmm….sounds like the asylums of 100 years ago….


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    I’m so glad you are covering this topic, Deb. I’ve been reading some horrific stories – especially pertaining to abuse where this type of counseling fails and leaves abuse victims in further danger.


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    My family member who is deeply into the MacArthur camp is also a Nouthetic counselor. Did the full programs at TMS, whole 9 yards. This person has also changed in many other ways as a result of this association, and definitely not for the better. Incredibly destructive, but that’s another story.

    The chief problem with Nouthetic counseling is its flawed premise. It takes the Calvinistic belief in total depravity to an extreme and plants it directly into a counseling setting. The results are predictably harmful, even disastrous. Basically they believe the counsulee is incapable of any change or treatment until and unless they experience spiritual regeneration and accept Christ, etc. This is the prerequisite to any further help in their scheme. This is why those who still have doubts feel written off — because they are!

    If somebody did this in the world of medicine, — denied a patient needed treatment because they didn’t espouse quite the right theological beliefs — they’d be sued for malpractice and discrimination in a heartbeat. But this counseling nonsense gets a pass because it’s “biblical” and associated with a church. It shouldn’t.

    It makes me glad I went to a seminary that has a school of psychology. A real one.


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    I wonder if this is the same sort of balderdash that compelled Dan Allender to write in his joke of a book, The Wounded Heart, about the “sin” and “rebellion” of “suppressing truth in unrighteousness.” It seems that, for example, during the abuse, if what’s happening is too much for the mind to bear, and the child victim dissociates from the experience, then he/she sins, though it be “naive and unformed.” This means that when I passed out at the age of three, it was wrong of me to automatically react in such a way. I could say more about what I read but I will not. My copy of that book died a brutal death.


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    “Now we ask you, brothers, to recognize those who labor among you, and manage you in the Lord, and counsel you” (1 Thess. 5:12).

    Any reason this “counsel” couldn’t include the advice to go seek out a pro?

    I can do most any residential electrical work. But I’m not formally trained or licensed. And on many occasions I have told friends they need to hire an electrician. What’s different about this?


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    Jeannette Altes wrote:

    However, as has been discussed in the Gothard thread, when someone who has suffered abuse – especially severe abuse – seeks help, the absolute last thing they need is to be told they're to blame because of their own sin. I really am finding words hard for this…..

    Even though I've only just begun to feel and process what happened to me as a child, my closest friend and her preacher father pulled this criticism on me the other night. I am not living a life of habitual sin, and I can barely hurt a bug – I'm the kind of weirdo who prays for its painless death. Shoot, it hurts me to pick a flower from the ground! But how dare I be affected by abuse! My struggles are actually my sins, and I am to blame for the pain I now feel. Having a hard time shaking off the guilt…


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    @ Oasis:

    This is easy to say… but if they try that again, why not slap them both very hard? Then let them take half the blame for it, since it must have been their sin that caused you to do it. This would give them the perfect opportunity to show you by example what they mean, rather than just talking down to you. Maybe they would, and maybe they wouldn’t; you know them better than I do.


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    On a more general note, this whole pseudo-science is based on nothing more than a play on the English word “counseling”. The Greek word refers to on-the-job training for life, translated as “counsel” in the archaic English of the KJV. Back in those days, to “take counsel” did not mean to seek healing, but to seek information and advice. The modern English word, in nouthetic “counseling”, refers to therapy to recover from setbacks or worse. But because there is a certain amount of kudos and elevated status (and sometimes power) attached to the role of therapist or healer, the idea of being “trained in counselling” appeals to our pride. I’m not particularly proud to admit that I too used to fancy myself as a counsellor; it was just ego and insecurity.


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    When you go through Nouthetic counseling and don’t get better, then you have to pretend you did.

    It’s like the Christian Science followers who say there is no pain, no disease, and no death. So when someone gets sick and doesn’t improve through prayer and the advice of a Christian Science practitioner, they just ignore him. He’s an embarrassment. He evidently didn’t have enough faith.

    Although I do believe that bad theology does cause a lot of problems in people’s lives, I don’t think it’s the only thing.

    When I looked at Nouthetic blogs right after the suicide of Rick Warren’s son, I notice they had no answers except having the right theology and knowing about sin. There were 2-3 sentences of obligatory sympathy at the outset, but the rest of it was condemning sin.

    NANC is trying to soften it’s stance these days–to appear a bit more winsome. The younger pastors are trying to act more compassionate, but it’s their response to tragedy that bring out the truth. They have no answers except to blame the sinner if things don’t improve.


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    Janey,

    I have been investigating NANC and will be sharing my findings. It’s quite a network.


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    To get a sense of these nouthetic proponents believe look at one of the most outspoken of so-called “Biblical Counseling,” Ab Abercrombie. If you go through his blog, notice how he uses every news event as an opportunity to bash psychology and psychiatry and simply using good judgment. They just don’t want anyone invading their turf.

    http://bcinstitute.com/a-biblical-response-to-mental-illness-and-suicide-what-should-we-conclude/

    http://bcinstitute.com/whatever-became-of-sin-4/#more-1215

    They really don’t have any message except: It’s all sin. Your sin. You either aren’t obedient enough or you don’t have enough faith.

    Nouthetic counselors sound just like charlatan faith healers.


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    Deb wrote:

    I have been investigating NANC and will be sharing my findings. It’s quite a network.

    Deb, I’m glad you’re doing that. You’ll need to keep an eye on John MacArthur and Master’s College and Seminary. They turn out a lot of judgmental condemning lay people and pastors alike–all of the nouthetic ilk.

    Here’s a map showing where their graduates are. Some are nice people, but others are arrogant control freaks.

    https://www.tms.edu/alumnimap.aspx


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    John wrote:

    The chief problem with Nouthetic counseling is its flawed premise. It takes the Calvinistic belief in total depravity to an extreme and plants it directly into a counseling setting. The results are predictably harmful, even disastrous. Basically they believe the counsulee is incapable of any change or treatment until and unless they experience spiritual regeneration and accept Christ, etc. This is the prerequisite to any further help in their scheme. This is why those who still have doubts feel written off — because they are!

    Exactly. But the only problem is that in the Calvinist paradigm one cannot “accept” Christ. It becomes a catch 22. Obviously if you still have problems that means irresisitble grace is not taking place. So you are just reprobate?


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    @ Janey:

    Janey,

    Yes, MacArthur and the Masters Seminary are definitely on my radar screen. As I have been learning about the history of Nouthetic counseling, I discovered that MacArthur has been involved since the 1970s. I’ll be discussing that as well.

    Please keep your suggestions coming. I’m just beginning to understand what has been going on for the last 40+ years in this movement.


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    Eagle wrote:

    @ Nicholas:
    This approach to counseling is like the USAF taking a pilot trianing him for a week and saying, “Here go pilot that F-35 Raptor. It’s like American Airlines taking a new hire and training him for a week and saying, “Here go fly that Boeing 767″ Or it’s like Norfolk Southern taking a new hire with no experience and training him for a week and saying, “Here go drive this train from Atlanta to Charleston”.

    Here you go… http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=l8Ah8WTL2i8&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dl8Ah8WTL2i8

    I love that commercial, too! 🙂


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    Long time reader, first time commenter. This sort of stuff really pushes my buttons.

    I spent several years doing substance abuse counseling. Perhaps one of the most offensive models I have ever had presented to me was by a layperson stating that addiction wasn’t a medical problem; addiction itself was a sin. There was no such thing as an “addict” according to him, because in Christ we have freedom in all things.

    I would have loved for him to have met a few of my clean & sober clients who still struggled daily not to have that drink, or that hit of heroin. Some of them were some of the strongest Christian men and women I have ever had the pleasure to meet. They truly walked with the Lord; despite this, the disease of addiction kept them in a constant struggle with their sobriety.

    It’s interesting to me that some people are so caught up in equating temptation with “sinning.” Jesus was tempted and tried in all ways as we are (Hebrews 4:15). Struggling with something does not equate a sin.

    Sorry, I’ll get off my soapbox. I know addiction and schizophrenia are apples and oranges, but I’ve seen this Nouthetic counseling nonsense damage God’s flock and their faith in Him more than you can imagine when it comes to people who struggle with addiction. It REALLY gets me angry.


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    “Nouthetic counseling is counseling that uses Scripture to confront people about their sin with the goal of helping to restore them to usefulness (Gal. 6:1).”

    This comes off as depersonalizing, like you as a person don’t matter at all. You are only as valuable as your usefulness.


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    Janey wrote:

    To get a sense of these nouthetic proponents believe look at one of the most outspoken of so-called “Biblical Counseling,” Ab Abercrombie. If you go through his blog, notice how he uses every news event as an opportunity to bash psychology and psychiatry and simply using good judgment. They just don’t want anyone invading their turf.

    That sounds so much like L Ron Hubbard and Scientology Auditing…

    They really don’t have any message except: It’s all sin. Your sin. You either aren’t obedient enough or you don’t have enough faith.

    All Sin-Sniffing, All The Time? Sounds like the “Seeing Demons Under Every Bed” school of paranoia would be an asset for the Nouthetic Counselor. Or at least mistaken for Great Zeal.

    If this does follow the pattern of cheezy faith healers, if the counselee improves it is all due to the Noutheic Counselor’s Great Faith and if not it’s the counselees Secret Sin Sin Sin Sin Sin? (i.e. Win-Win for the Counselor, Lose-Lose for the counselee.)


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    Deb,

    Be sure to look at:
    PsychoHeresy Awareness Ministries, 4137 Primavera Road, Santa Barbara, CA 93110
    http://www.psychoheresy-aware.org

    These Nouthetic bullies bash Christian psychologists and psychiatrists publicly by name on their website.


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    Janey wrote:

    Deb,

    Be sure to look at:
    PsychoHeresy Awareness Ministries, 4137 Primavera Road, Santa Barbara, CA 93110
    http://www.psychoheresy-aware.org

    These Nouthetic bullies attack Christian psychologists and psychiatrists publicly by name on their website.

    These Nouthetic bullies attack Christian psychologists and psychiatrists publicly by name on their website.

    To give you an example, here’s one of their bully posts:
    http://www.psychoheresy-aware.org/exmyth63.html

    Louis Whallon (aka Lou Whallon) is a lay person with no seminary degree. He’s a real estate investor who is a Sunday school teacher at my church. And he’s bashing a psychiatrist who is well-loved and a highly respected man. In fact Carlson was the church chairman for many years before he retired and moved. Carlson is a humble and compassionate man.

    Nouthetic attack dogs are out there. Their pride, arrogance, and insecurity are clear to anyone who has listened to their teaching.

    http://www.psychoheresy-aware.org/exmyth63.html


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    @ Janey:

    I checked out that website. Can I say SCARY! Every book promoted is written by the couple and they seem to have a problem with the instructor of counseling at Masters – he’s not teaching real “Biblical” counseling. It’s hard to believe they are functioning in the Santa Barbara area.


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    I kind of see both sides of this issue, and I think both have validity. Adams rejects the concept of “mental illness” and sees sin everywhere. That is tragic, and leads to more abuse of people who have been abused or who have organic brain problems. However, I also see a problems where Christians harbor anger, and become depressed, and then think Prozac will solve their problems. I think that we as Christians SHOULD use Scripture to deal with our problems, so maybe there are better “non – nouthetic” conselors who integrate life and the Bible better than Adams. There is a “smugness” to this type of thinking, very simplistic, and just leaves people in their pain. But on the other hand, secular psychology leaves a lot to be desired. I have experience with the mentally ill population, and pills are not always the answer. I hope that there is some type of happy medium out there – counselors who use the Bible wisely, understand abuse, understand that people can have emotional issues from brain trauma and the like.


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    Sigh. Yet another misuse of the Bible….
    Treating the Bible as if it is some sort of book of spells, in which there is a “biblical” antidote to everything, seems idolotrous to me.


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    @ Anon 1:

    You are so right. Much of what is presented as "Biblical Counseling" is so harmful and just isn't, well, Biblical! I did not see Jesus heal people through bashing them with Scripture, which is what Nouthetic does. As I like to say, "read two Scriptures and call me in the morning" approach.

    As a licensed counselor and university professor, I am confronted with this issue all the time. Frankly, I usually advise people not to seek counseling from their church or pastor, especially since I deal with much domestic abuse. Do some Christian counselors forge to even use the Bible? Yes. Do some secular counselors never use the Bible? Of course. Do pastors have any formal training to counsel? Not usually. I went to school for 8 years to be where I am and counsel effectively. How does a 3 weekend course (whether done over 3 weekends or "at your own pace" make someone competent to counsel? It doesn't. The spiritual damage done is immeasurable.


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    @ justabeliever:
    One issue is that every bad behavior can be thought of as a mental defect. After all, if someone could thing that murder is OK, they must be crazy right? This is the extreme that no one buys into, but it’s a slippery slope once you start saying people shouldn’t be held accountable for their actions for reasons of mental issues.

    Enter Nouthetic Counseling, which just goes whole hog against that trend and makes everyone accountable for all of their behaviors. This sounds all nice and fair, until you’ve met someone who really does suffer mentally or emotionally. Or if you’ve been there yourself. Then you see that there are people who are suffering, and some of these people cannot control their actions.

    I think Nouthetic Counseling is an overreaction to a legitimate problem, and in doing is it’s as bad as what it is trying to combat. Worse even, because the one glaring issue with Nouthetic is that there is no place for correction like there is in secular therapy. Nouthetic proponents love to point out the problems with secular therapy, and sometimes they are right- but secular therapy can readjust as it learns. Nouthetic cannot- if something isn’t working, they just say the observer who *thinks* it isn’t working is wrong. It’s working, you’re just not doing it right. There is no room for growth in Nouthetic Counseling, which is scary for something as challenging as mental health. It is the *arrogance* of the Nouthetic “Competent To Counsel” mindset that is its Achilles’ heal. Any person in this field who thinks everything to know about mental health is already known is doomed to hurt his or her patients.

    Look back at physical medicine- there have been horrible practices that have gone on in the efforts to heal people including some very harmful treatements. But out of that has grown undestanding of how the human body works because the practitioners have course corrected over time. Pointing to our limitations now is not indicator that secular mental health treatment is not worth persuing- it means we are still learning.

    There is nothing worse to a person who is suffering than to offer simplistic solutions on how to stop suffering. That’s not what Jesus or Paul did, and it’s not how God would have us behave.


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    “Nouthetic counseling is counseling that uses Scripture to confront people about their sin with the goal of helping to restore them to usefulness (Gal. 6:1).”

    So let’s say a very troubled victim of sex abuse goes in to see a Nouthetic counselor for help. What kind of sin did the victim of sex abuse commit? Wearing a skirt too short? Putting on too much eye-liner? Their heart was not right before God? They have too much anger and bitterness? They have evil thoughts about the perpetrator?


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    Julie Anne wrote:

    So let’s say a very troubled victim of sex abuse goes in to see a Nouthetic counselor for help. What kind of sin did the victim of sex abuse commit? Wearing a skirt too short? Putting on too much eye-liner? Their heart was not right before God? They have too much anger and bitterness? They have evil thoughts about the perpetrator?

    I think they would say that continuing to be bothered about the abuse is the sin. In the world of Nouthetic counsling, as best as I can tell, allowing pain to affect you is sin, because in Christ we should be able to transcend all of that.

    Direct quote from an elder at my church about the emotional pain I received from my wife: “She should not be able to hurt you like that”.


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    @ Janey:

    Dr. Carlson is right. What people like Whallon are teaching truly runs parallel to that of the faith healers, “health and wealth”, etc.

    Bobgan’s and Whallon’s teaching is just as much a rejection of the idea that God works through means, such as medicine.

    Another mistake made by people like the Bobgans is that they equate “psychology” with Sigmund Freud and Carl Jung, and then go on to list all of the strange ideas that those two men believed.

    Psychology is more of an umbrella term encompassing multiple schools of thought. Freud’s ideas are not the most popular in psychology today. Acknowledging this would not help the Bobgans on their crusade.


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    @ Nicholas:
    From your first link, leaders help “counselors” ask/answer the right questions:

    “What does God think of this person? God loves sinners and he hates sinners at the same time. In this particular instance, how is God thinking about this person? Is there anything God would commend in her life? Is there anything God condemns? Is there any hope or mercy that God holds out for this person?”

    “Hate” is intense hostility that veers into a desire for revenge. God doesn’t hate people. These same folks go on about the sin of b*tterness, so what does that say about their god?

    Plus, the presumption. Do they have all the facts and nuances? How do they think they have the capacity to understand another’s heart when they cannot even understand their own? Who are they to decide whether there is hope or mercy for their client? It is idiotic arrogance. It is the worst sort of pride.

    PS: They use feminine pronouns for clients. Since everyone else in their faith has male pronouns, ick!


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    justabeliever wrote:

    …I think that we as Christians SHOULD use Scripture to deal with our problems…

    … and setting that short quote back into the more general context of your comment, I agree that there is great merit in this. Many things that are perfectly useful for physical health (fresh fruit/vegetables, exercise, antibiotics, over-the-counter analgesics such as ibuprofen or whatever it’s called over there). Only quacks and pseudo-scientists believe any of them is a panacea.

    Likewise, applying scriptures out of context or simplistically does no good for our mental health, but that doesn’t mean the bible can’t contribute to mental health. The usual missing factor in Biblcal Scripture Bible counselling, though, is the Author. Jesus himself treated everybody as unique; that should surely tell us something even if we couldn’t have spotted it for ourselves.


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    @ Nicholas:
    Thanks for the email link. I hope you don’t mind if I pull some quotes:

    “Your ludicrous claim to “training” (your own and the moronic people who will pay forty dollars for it) does not stand up under scrutiny. The damage you will do is incalculable. Clearly, you don’t give two hoots in hell about the people, their families, and the community that you will harm with your pseudo-counseling…..What twisted, egocentric, lust for self-importance drives the men of the Kirk (and their like-minded allies…) to believe they are competent to tackle any professional area that arouses their interest?….Have you no shame – oh, wait we know the answer to that question. You have moved from the jackass category which is sufficiently awful to the toxically dangerous category.”

    Woot!


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    I’ll admit knowing little about nouthetic counseling. On the surface, it seems just like my default reactions toward my mentally ill friend, when I don’t want to be bothered. I don’t need any training for that!
         Do they teach about Job’s friends, so as not to be like them? as Job said, 
    “I have heard many such things: miserable comforters are ye all.
    Shall vain words have an end? or what emboldeneth thee that thou answerest? I also could speak as ye do: if your soul were in my soul’s stead, I could heap up words against you, and shake mine head at you.”
        Or do they teach about Ahithophel, to remember the real dangers of being a counselor?
    “And the counsel of Ahithophel, which he counselled in those days, was as if a man had inquired at the oracle of God: so was all the counsel of Ahithophel both with David and with Absalom.”
    A little later… “And Absalom and all the men of Israel said, The counsel of Hushai the Archite is better than the counsel of Ahithophel. For the LORD had appointed to defeat the good counsel of Ahithophel, to the intent that the LORD might bring evil upon Absalom.”
    And finally… “And when Ahithophel saw that his counsel was not followed, he saddled his ass, and arose, and gat him home to his house, to his city, and put his household in order, and hanged himself, and died, and was buried in the sepulchre of his father.”


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    On a more general note, this whole pseudo-science is based on nothing more than a play on the English word “counseling”. The Greek word refers to on-the-job training for life, translated as “counsel” in the archaic English of the KJV. Back in those days, to “take counsel” did not mean to seek healing, but to seek information and advice. The modern English word, in nouthetic “counseling”, refers to therapy to recover from setbacks or worse. But because there is a certain amount of kudos and elevated status (and sometimes power) attached to the role of therapist or healer, the idea of being “trained in counselling” appeals to our pride. I’m not particularly proud to admit that I too used to fancy myself as a counsellor; it was just ego and insecurity.

    This! Countless cult founders and false teachers of every stripe, from the 1800s to today, use the KJV in this way.


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    Nicholas wrote:

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:
    On a more general note, this whole pseudo-science is based on nothing more than a play on the English word “counseling”. The Greek word refers to on-the-job training for life, translated as “counsel” in the archaic English of the KJV. Back in those days, to “take counsel” did not mean to seek healing, but to seek information and advice.
    This! Countless cult founders and false teachers of every stripe, from the 1800s to today, use the KJV in this way.

    I purposely used the KJV in my previous comment, so as to have the word “counsel” in the context Nick mentions. Unfortunately, my comment is in moderation– no doubt due to the KJV word for “donkey” therein!


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    @ Patrice:

    When I browsed that site I had the same response but different words —

    YOU GO GIRL!


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    Bridget wrote:

    I checked out that website. Can I say SCARY! Every book promoted is written by the couple…

    That sounds like a textbook Kook, Crank, or Conspiracy Theorist.

    P.S. Is every book also self-published?


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:

    It’s discouraging to see how many abhorant teachings and “ministries” begin from the subtle misuse of verses and scriptures that had no such meaning when they were originally written.There was no mental health arena when those words were penned.There was mental illlness. Should we chain people up to posts or bannish them to deserted islands if their behavior doesn’t change by identifying sin and repenting?


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    Bill wrote:

    Treating the Bible as if it is some sort of book of spells, in which there is a “biblical” antidote to everything, seems idolotrous to me.

    The word is “Grimoire”. With each verse a separate verbal-component spell.


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    Janey wrote:

    These Nouthetic bullies bash Christian psychologists and psychiatrists publicly by name on their website.

    Again, sounds a lot like Scientology. And probably for similar reasons — psychology and psychiatry are unwanted competition to both Nouthetics and Scientology Auditing. Just the Nouthetics do it with a Bible/Grimoire instead of a Hubbard E-Meter. And probably charge le$$.


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    Just a general question about DR Jay E Adams:

    Is the “Dr” legit? Considering all the Larry-Moe-Curly Honorary Degrees floating around the “Biblical Bubble”, you always have to check.


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    Dee, Deb, I’d be very interested for you to research whether or not there is any kind of spectrum of approaches within nouthetic counseling. The reason I ask is that I used to go to a nouthetic counselor and, while I ultimately decided it wasn’t as helpful as actual Christian counseling (by trained psychologists), my experience of it didn’t quite line up with some of the definitions that I’ve found online. I can see similarities, but it certainly wasn’t as extreme. For example, my counselor did not try to equate every emotional problem I had to some kind of sin (although he did believe that the answer to my emotional problems would come from a stronger and stronger belief in Biblical promises). See what I mean about unhelpful, but not necessarily actively harmful?

    At the same time, though, I recognize that nouthetic counseling does seem to be based on harmful principles and is probably practiced in much more harmful ways by many Biblical counselors. That’s why I’m wondering if there’s any kind of different approaches within the nouthetic counseling world.


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    Bridget wrote:

    @ Janey:
    I checked out that website. Can I say SCARY! Every book promoted is written by the couple and they seem to have a problem with the instructor of counseling at Masters – he’s not teaching real “Biblical” counseling. It’s hard to believe they are functioning in the Santa Barbara area.

    Yeah. Nouthetic counseling isn’t nouthetic enough for the Bobgans.


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    @ justabeliever:

    It’s an interesting balance that we in this profession have to strike. I have worked both in secular and in faith based organizations. Needless to say, working in a faith based organization was much preferred by myself. However, a competent counselor will do his or her best to challenge a client regardless of a secular/faith based approach to conventional treatment. For example, telling a depressed wife that her affair and subsequent strife with her husband and her depression over it was a result of natural consequences (or the sin of lust, in this case) would be appropriate confrontation on the part of the counselor (secularly or biblically). Attempts at marital reconciliation to alevate her sorrow vs. medication would be a much better approach.

    It’s a fine line.

    As a related aside, I now work in prevention instead of treatment, with much of the focus of set upon building protective factors (self-esteem/positive influences) and minimizing risk factors (low self worth/chaotic associations & environments, etc). I’ve seen several Nouthetic counselors go so far as to say that “self-esteem” is a modern day concept and that it’s the seed to the sin of pride. They equate something as simple as being proud of choosing not to take a drug as placing your will above God’s grace, and promote the idea that you have no right to feel good about your self-control. No, I am not kidding. Just try to get through the below outline without wincing:

    http://www.gracecounsel.com/worry/selfEsteem-1.html

    Talk about denial of free will and taking “total depravity” to the most extreme. I agree that we’re all hopeless sinners and that everyone should find their hope and love in Christ alone, but jeez. What a contradiction. How are you supposed to think that God loves you if the entire purpose of Nouthetic counseling is to beat you over the head that you are a sinful piece of filth undeserving of love?

    It infuriates me.


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    sad observer,

    As I understand it, there have definitely been some ‘corrections’ in the realm of biblical counseling since Adams began the nouthetic counseling movement back in the 1970s.  As you can imagine, some terrible errors were made which nearly derailed the entire movement. 

    No doubt changes had to be made if this type of counseling was to remain viable.   I will try to get into this in an upcoming post. 

     


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    My wife and I have been leading DivorceCare recovery groups for seven years. It is put out by a group called “Church Initiative” in North Carolina. It has been very helpful in restoring the lives of divorced people and doing it in a church setting. They recently updated their videos and work books and some of it is troubling. They have moved much farther in the direction of nouthetic counseling that they were before. Some of the “experts” that speak in the videos are from these “biblical” schools.
    The at home study for last week included a short bio called “Matt’s Story”. He talks about his divorce, “Because of the distance between us that I had caused, my wife ended up getting into an adulterous affair and then filed for divorce.” and, “I was taking responsibility for what had happened…”
    This is just so wrong and it has the odor of “biblical” counseling. Matt has no control of his wife’s choices and he is not responsible for her adultery. She has made all those poor choices of her own free will.
    Our group was pretty upset when they read “Matt’s Story”. These are the same words that come out of the mouths of pornography addicted, adulterous spouses. “It is really your fault!” Now they hear from the “biblical counseling” influenced divorce recovery program that it really is true.
    Disgusting.


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    @ Bridget:
    🙂 I felt so relieved reading it, and realized that it had been twisting me in knots. Blech.

    Nouthetic counseling is evil. I seldom attach that word anywhere, but in this case, it is the flat truth.


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    anonymous wrote:

    Yeah. Nouthetic counseling isn’t nouthetic enough for the Bobgans.

    Isn’t this called “One-Upmanship”, “More X Than Thou”, or “Can You Top This?” None of these are a good attitude.


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    FWIW, in my experience if what you are dealing with is an abuse situation, the #1 most important factor in finding a therapist is that he or she understands abuse. As nice as it is to find a Christian therapist, that’s a secondary concern.

    I saw an integration guy and a secular guy (I did NOT go near Nouthetic) and the secular guy was FAR better for me- but he had experience with abuse. In fact, he used to work with court ordered domestic violence offenders (men). And contrary to what the Nouthetic guys would say he didn’t give me a “pass” for my sin. He helped me own and understand my shortcomings- in fact, we spent far more time dealing with my choices than with my ex, but with acceptance and love.

    There WERE things that made me wish I could have found an integration type with his background, but overall I’m certain God brought him into my life and used him powerfully.


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    “admonish, correct or instruct.” This made my stomach turn. When I was considering suicide almost 30 years ago, the last think i needed was someone to “admonish” me. I already felt that I was more worthless than a turd on the bottom of someone’s shoe so what good would come out of admonishing me. People who suffer from depression don’t need anyone else putting us down, we can do it all by ourselves.


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    Thank you Dee and Deb for bringing attention to this nouthetic counselling. I had never heard of it before. But now that I have, and have been looking more into it and reading other blogs of first hand experiences with it I think it truly is just a ‘canning’ of religious ideas that have been there all along. I believe my whole life was full of this ‘counselling’ just being raised in IFB culture. I was nuts. It wasnt until I learned what I believe to be truer biblical counsel that I got better. One idea that helped me a lot is that every sin we commit and every sin that is committed against us are completely separate issues. It’s the horrible confusion that this nouthetic counselling creates that actually leads to addictions, a search for something to relieve the religious chaos of confusion. An example, my date rape experience should be a completely separate reality from the reality that I did not listen to my Dad when he warned me about the possibility of this date being unstable. I was not raped because I did not listen to my dad. I was raped because my date was set on evil. Period. The mental problems that developed from that were more created by my confusion that I had supposed sin involved. And how can you ever fully forgive someone who you share blame with. I don’t believe inerce any two people forgiving each other for each person’s ‘part’ in a situation. Each person takes 100 percent responsibility for their sin against the other person, absolutely separate. If I take any responsibility from them on to myself then I become completely neurotic believing that I can still control all things that will happen to me. Then I develop more problems like OCD and constantly lock doors and wear burkas. It never works.


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    I think I’ve read the Bobgans’ site before and somewhere in that whole mess I remember hearing something about John MacArthur teaching that Jesus was not eternally the Son of God or something like that. This has little or nothing to do with nouthetic counseling but I know I got to the Bobgans’ site only one or two clicks away from that information.


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    @ Deb: I remember seeing copies of “Competent to Counsel” everywhere back in the 70s, and I suspect that I was put through the wringer a time or two by people who were “counselors” a la Jay Adams. (In the 70s, that is, and later as well.)

    I tried reading Competent… back when, and put it down pretty quickly because it upset me – at this remove, I couldn’t tell you exactly what was most troubling to me, but I’m sure it had to do with the blame-oriented ideas that are the backbone of his “counseling.”

    Ugh.


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    @ Jeff S:

    As nice as it is to find a Christian therapist, that’s a secondary concern.

    You said it! In my personal experience, well… all of the so-called “xtian” psych “professionals” I’ve had the displeasure of meeting have been, imo, frauds.

    Far better to find a good, caring and experienced professional who respects your beliefs but doesn’t necessarily share them than going to someone just because they claim to be “a professional” and “xtian.”

    A lot of people have no shame, it seems.


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    @ Nicholas: Both Adams and “inner healing” were all the rage back in the 70s. Looks like this is “inner healing” repackaged.

    There is nothing new under the sun

    sums up my feelings on a lot of aspects of this topic. Or, as they say on Battlestar Galactica and Caprica, “All this has happened before, and will happen again.” (In the world of the shows, this is a prophetic religious statement which is widely quoted and believed.)


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    Nicholas wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    His PhD is in Speech: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_E._Adams#Education

    Doctorate in speech…I took speech classes as easy electives in college. After I graduated, the State of Texas sent me a teacher’s certificate in speech. ( I had 27 hours.) They said I had “fulfilled the requirements” in addition to my other subjects….


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    mmgirl

    My thoughts and prayers are with you.. I totally concur with your comment. You are deeply loved by your Creator and you do not need to listen to those who are deceived into thinking that a couple of books and a weeks conference makes them "counselors." We are creating fools.


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    Loren Haas wrote:

    (quoting Matt) “I was taking responsibility for what had happened…”
    This is just so wrong and it has the odor of “biblical” counseling.

    In Driscoll’s recent sermon we see the same thing. “We pray, talk, work it out together as friends, and then I take responsibility for the decisions that we make together.”
    I smell the odor of rotten teaching about the rotten apple in the Garden. Bible: Adam ate the fruit, knew he was naked, hid from God, and blamed “the woman THOU didst give me”. Rotten teaching: Adam was responsible to teach Eve better, or keep her away from the Snake better, or exercise his headship authority better. He was responsible for Eve’s sin of usurping his authority by eating the fruit.


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    nmgirl,

    My heart goes out to you.

    I am so grateful that you are still here with us, and I pray that you continue to find peace.

    Blessings.


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    Dis wrote:

    Talk about denial of free will and taking “total depravity” to the most extreme. I agree that we’re all hopeless sinners and that everyone should find their hope and love in Christ alone, but jeez. What a contradiction. How are you supposed to think that God loves you if the entire purpose of Nouthetic counseling is to beat you over the head that you are a sinful piece of filth undeserving of love?

    I AGREE!!!!


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    Anon 2 wrote:

    How else have they changed and how destructive? I’d love to hear more about this John.

    The story is long and detailed and involves family friction, so I don’t want to go into the details. Broadly, however, the changes I have seen include a marked lack of compassion and empathy (and a dismissiveness) for anyone outside the in group; spiritual elitism and superiority; greed and covetousness; a blindness to issues of basic justice and equity in favor of a literal wooden Biblicism; and the (rather superficial) use of scripture to justify it all.

    It sounds like a lot, and it is, but the casual observer would find it difficult to detect anything wrong right away. We only noticed it over time and because of certain interactions and issues that revealed these changes. When I compare this to the carefree and broadly compassionate person this individual was 30 years ago, it makes me sad. It is a loss.


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    Concerning the Bobgans, I think I recall reading somewhere, perhaps their own website, that they were once connected to The Master’s Seminary and its Nouthetic Counseling program, until they decided that it was too psychological as well. I can’t find that information now.

    HUG mentioned this spiritual “one-upmanship”. A friend of the Bobgans’, a fundamentalist named Rick Miesel, convinced a member of MacArthur’s congregation that MacArthur was a “psychologizing” false teacher. This member of MacArthur’s congregation then founded a cult and anathematized all of Christendom, even Miesel and the Bobgans themselves. The entire account can be found at the following two pages:

    http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/ans-attack.htm

    http://www.atruecult.com/dfishfaq.htm

    You’ll notice that the author of the first article, Jeff Simmons, still expresses the idea that psychology is “false.” The second article is written by Phil Johnson.


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    Dave A A wrote:

    I purposely used the KJV in my previous comment, so as to have the word “counsel” in the context Nick mentions. Unfortunately, my comment is in moderation– no doubt due to the KJV word for “donkey” therein!

    Dave – you can imagine the trouble a colleague of mine got into with the IT system when she tried to get tickets for a Barenaked Ladies concert…


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    Scooter’s Mom wrote:

    Talk about denial of free will and taking “total depravity” to the most extreme. I agree that we’re all hopeless sinners and that everyone should find their hope and love in Christ alone, but jeez. What a contradiction. How are you supposed to think that God loves you if the entire purpose of Nouthetic counseling is to beat you over the head that you are a sinful piece of filth undeserving of love?

    Yep. And to make it worse, YOU cannot help yourself change. It is not synergistic with the help of the HOly Spirit. Instead you have to sit around and beg for the magic to take place instead of any “doing” on your part. Because you are a worm. Have no worth.


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    Loren Haas wrote:

    My wife and I have been leading DivorceCare recovery groups for seven years. It is put out by a group called “Church Initiative” in North Carolina. It has been very helpful in restoring the lives of divorced people and doing it in a church setting. They recently updated their videos and work books and some of it is troubling. They have moved much farther in the direction of nouthetic counseling that they were before. Some of the “experts” that speak in the videos are from these “biblical” schools.
    The at home study for last week included a short bio called “Matt’s Story”. He talks about his divorce, “Because of the distance between us that I had caused, my wife ended up getting into an adulterous affair and then filed for divorce.” and, “I was taking responsibility for what had happened…”
    This is just so wrong and it has the odor of “biblical” counseling. Matt has no control of his wife’s choices and he is not responsible for her adultery. She has made all those poor choices of her own free will.
    Our group was pretty upset when they read “Matt’s Story”. These are the same words that come out of the mouths of pornography addicted, adulterous spouses. “It is really your fault!” Now they hear from the “biblical counseling” influenced divorce recovery program that it really is true.

    Oh, my! This is good to know. Our church has the old version. I’ll let our pastor know to keep an eye out for the new version.


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    ‘The story is long and detailed and involves family friction, so I don’t want to go into the details. Broadly, however, the changes I have seen include a marked lack of compassion and empathy (and a dismissiveness) for anyone outside the in group; spiritual elitism and superiority; greed and covetousness; a blindness to issues of basic justice and equity in favor of a literal wooden Biblicism; and the (rather superficial) use of scripture to justify it all.”

    John, this describes exactly what many here are seeing coming out of SBTS. And I also have family members who got involved in that movement who went from compassionate to literally “shunning” other believers in the family who were not Calvinists.

    The literal interpretation of scripture that gives no room for metaphorical hyperbole, historical context, Hebrew thinking and different views of election/total depravity are literally tearing families apart.


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    Years ago I received some NANC counseling for help in processing childhood trauma/abuse issues. It was recommended to me by the pastor at my church. Little did I know what I was getting myself into. At the time I was desperate- I wanted some help, I wanted answers and I wanted to be fixed. The counseling made me very angry and it took me a few visits to figure out why. The counselor had me read The Cross Centered Life by CJ Mahaney, Christ and Your Problems by Jay Adams, Trusting God by Jerry Bridges and Anger, Anxiety and Fear by Stuart Scott. There was also a long “to do” list that included who and what to pray for, bible reading, scripture memorization, journaling, acts of service and at least 2 hours of church attendance per week. I decided that NANC taught me that I was saved by grace, but sanctified by my own efforts.

    The counselor had me write down word for word the main points of NANC counseling:
    1. My primary goal is to please God.
    2. I please God by becoming more like Christ
    3. God knows I will not be perfect but He does expect me to be changing and growing.
    4. I have to look at my sin, not others.

    I was also told to examine my attitudes and decide if I was a proud or a broken person. This included a list of 35 attitudes that i was to change about myself so I could be a broken person that God could use. This list was compiled by Nancy Leigh DeMoss.

    At the time I had many suicidal thoughts, I felt like a failure. I felt like God did not love me and neither did the church. I was tired of being depressed and wanted to be fixed. The counselor did a good job of admonishing me and when I decided to longer receive any more mean counseling, the counselor called me for several months afterword trying to get me to come back.

    NANC counseling is so wrong on so many levels. I’m probably one of the lucky ones that figured out somewhat quickly how destructive that type of counseling is for people who have been abused and traumatized. But it did it’s damage. I no longer trust any church authority person and church in general gives me a bitta taste in my mouth.


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    10 years ago when I went through the darkest time of my life I was blessed to be able to count on three Christian professionals.

    One was my physician. When he prescribed an antidepressant he told me that the drug would not fix my problem, but would calm the emotions enough to allow me to resolve it.

    One was a psychologist, who is a respected believer in the community and member of the board of his church. I don’t know what kind of “psychoheresy” he used on me. I just remember him listening to me, asking me questions, listening some more, and then clarifying for me what I said.

    Another was a long time friend who recently became a pastor in another church. Mostly what he did was listen, but he also empathised. He had been through a similar struggle years before, so I knew that he knew what it was like.

    Oh, there was one other. My own pastor, whose counseling sessions were pretty much a prepared sermon just for me. The second and final session of getting Bible-thumped ended with him saying, “You allowed this to happen.” I was such a wreck after his “couseling” I considered taking my own life.

    It has been my experience that the most important qualification we set for a pastor is that he be an excellent Bible expositor, a teacher. So then we get someone who can teach doctrine, but when confronted by a person with serious personal problems, doesn’t know what to do. By default they revert to their primary strength, lecture-style teaching. Small wonder the nouthetic model appeals to this sort. Counseling becomes just another teaching session.

    Teaching has a place, but God has designed the body of Christ with members possessing various gift combinations. There are times when the pastor/teacher types are not the ones who should step in. Sometimes the listeners need to drive, and the talkers need to sit in the back seat and hush up.


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    This article from October shows that Doug Wilson’s father, Jim Wilson, was a practioner of this type of “counseling”: http://cryingoutforjustice.wordpress.com/2012/10/11/abuse-and-the-wilsonian-theology-a-survivors-story/

    Here is a video of Jim Wilson and his son Doug: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnSGzjW7v2M


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    @ Nick Bulbeck: Thanks, made me laugh. 🙂


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Bill wrote:
    Treating the Bible as if it is some sort of book of spells, in which there is a “biblical” antidote to everything, seems idolotrous to me.
    The word is “Grimoire”. With each verse a separate verbal-component spell.

    I believe our decapitated single-horned mythical equine friend has captured bibliolatry very well here. Interestingly, the wiki article on Grimoires says the following:

    …in many cultures, other sacred texts that are not grimoires, such as the Bible, have also been believed to have magical properties intrinsically…

    The trend among biblianistic “reformed” clergy/speakers these days is, in effect, to treat the Bible as a doctrinal Grimoire. There’s a lot in common between a proof-texting doctrinal spat and a wizarding duel from Harry Potter.


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    On the subject – how can you tell a unicorn from a horse if it’s headless? Is much known about unicorn DNA? Or is that the point – i.e., this is a headless white horse… so you can’t prove it’s not a unicorn… so I’m going to claim it is?

    … I’m off to bed.


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    Oasis wrote:

    @ Nick Bulbeck: Thanks, made me laugh.

    Glad to be of service! I was only half-joking, though..!


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    Now I’m really off to bed. Night, all (in this time-zone anyway).


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    J. Terry wrote:

    At the time I had many suicidal thoughts, I felt like a failure. I felt like God did not love me and neither did the church.

    After what happened to you I can understand why!


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    J. Terry wrote:

    I no longer trust any church authority person and church in general gives me a bitta taste in my mouth.

    I understand this too!


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    On a more general note, this whole pseudo-science is based on nothing more than a play on the English word “counseling”. The Greek word refers to on-the-job training for life, translated as “counsel” in the archaic English of the KJV. Back in those days, to “take counsel” did not mean to seek healing, but to seek information and advice. The modern English word, in nouthetic “counseling”, refers to therapy to recover from setbacks or worse. But because there is a certain amount of kudos and elevated status (and sometimes power) attached to the role of therapist or healer, the idea of being “trained in counselling” appeals to our pride. I’m not particularly proud to admit that I too used to fancy myself as a counsellor; it was just ego and insecurity.

    Hey Nick, this is exactly the case. They are reading back into the text something that did not exist then. Counselling, as they are meaning it, is really very recent, & not something, as a discipline, practised in this way before in history. I just did an Introduction to Counselling with the OU, & most of it was about the main models of counselling (secular): psycho-dynamic, person-centred & CBT, what they were rooted in & why they developed. So nouthetic ‘counselling’ starts with a mistake right in the beginning, & gets worse from there. It’s appalling.


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    @ Bridget:

    @ Beakerj:

    You and I are the same page! 🙂


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    Hi Deb, long time reader, first time poster. I appreciate the work that you are doing by facilitating discussions on topics like this. I grew up with a mother that had significant mental health issues. At the time we attended a very conservative church and the impression that I got was that the use of secular mental health providers (as well as the use of related medications) was generally discouraged by the church leadership. It may have been related to the type of counseling that you are discussing, but I was too young to really know. There has been a great deal of scientific research into how the human mind works (brain chemistry, etc.) and I just don’t see what is so wrong about a Christian getting psychiatric help when they need it. I wish that my mother had gotten that type of help back then. In my life I have watched two separate close family members develop mental illness. Mental illness is real. That it exists is a medical fact that should not be a matter of debate. A question that I would like to ask is what happens when a person exhibiting suicidal ideations receives this type counseling. Would they at least be referred to a medical professional at that point?


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    Bridget wrote:

    @ Bridget:
    @ Beakerj:
    You and I are the same page!

    Yay! I also think that any of these ‘secular’ models, wisely & judiciously applied with love & compassion can do wonders never yet seen in nouthetic ‘counselling’for all its Biblical pretensions.


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    Dis – thanks for your thoughts. Nice comments, welcome.


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    @ Deb:

    On that page, under “Cost”:
    “Discounts are available for students, military, and married couples.”

    So if you’re an adult who is single, you get no discount.

    There’s not much I can say now that I’ve not said before on older threads about nouthetic counseling – it doesn’t help people who have honest to goodness mental health problems.

    Their usual approach – (blame all your problems on your persona sin) – and maybe with a dash of “pray about it” or “read your Bible more” never helped me with depression or panic attacks.

    This advice can make your depression worse, because it makes you feel hopeless: no matter how much you read or pray or confess any sins you can think of, you still don’t get better.


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    Anon 1 wrote:

    Jeanette, A lot of pastors or ministry folk already practice a form of Nouthetic counseling without using the name. I was almost always appalled at how ministers in the mega industrial complex handled issues. It got to the point I wanted to warn folks to not even discuss their problems with them. They would always point back to that person no matter what the issue was. Was abused by husband? Well, you have to take at least half the blame. Partner embezzled from you? Well, you have to take half the blame. It would get to the point it was more convenient to be the abuser or criminal cos you got a pass! After all, you were not stupid enough to approach the church for counseling. It was the decent person seeking help who got the blame! Why can’t they just say: That was evil. Period?

    Very true. It’s one reason why I hesitate to open up to any one any more if I’m hurting or angry, especially to Christians, because a lot of them will find some way to blame you for whatever bad thing happened to you.

    By the way, I’ve seen this phenomenon in 12 step programs such as Alcoholics Anonymous. Leaders in these groups will ask people who complain or vent about something, “What role did you play in that?,” which, if mis-used, can morph into or imply, “you are to blame for the bad thing that happened to you.”

    I realize a lot of people feel they’ve been helped by AA or have friends who have been, but spend some time on pages by ex-AA members, and you’ll see the problems.

    I think groups such as AA and other 12 step programs are trying to teach substance abusers about personal responsibility, which is fine, but it gets twisted into “you are to blame for your own problems,” even in situations where the person may not be to blame (such as rape victims).


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    @ Daisy:

    P.S. to my response to Anon 1 above this:
    A lot of managers and other types of supervisors do this too, when it comes to work place bullying.

    If you are being harassed on a job and go to a boss for help with it (and the harassment does not fall under racism, sexism, ageism), some of these types of bosses will say something like, “I’m tired of hearing about so-and-so. What do you think you can do to change this?,” or, “how are you contributing to this situation?”

    Notice the advice on this page, the first point:

    3 Positive Steps for Managers to Curb Workplace Bullying

    Here’s part of it:

    1.) Hold confirmed bullies accountable.
    Drop the “go work it out between yourselves” ducking of your responsibility as manager. Get involved or the festering problem eventually will prevent any work from getting done.


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    Janey wrote:

    They really don’t have any message except: It’s all sin. Your sin. You either aren’t obedient enough or you don’t have enough faith.
    Nouthetic counselors sound just like charlatan faith healers.

    Yes, it’s rather the same with the Word of Faith / Prosperity Gospel / Wealth and Health believers. If you don’t get healed, you weren’t praying hard or long enough, or not tithing regularly, or they’ll find some other way to pin the blame on you.


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    @ Anon 1:
    You better take it to the elders before you take it to the church.


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    @ Janey:

    Speaking of John MacArthur, I think it was he who was mentioned in Why Do Christians Shoot Their Wounded where the author (a Christian doctor) asked someone who attended John MacArthur’s church about all this.

    The guy said he liked John MacArthur’s preaching on most topics but that MacArthur was very wrong about mental health problems.

    This guy said he could never tell anyone at his church that he was seeing a psychiatrist for depression and on medication for it, because he knew they would not understand and be judgmental about it. The quote in the book by this guy is: “he [MacArthur] doesn’t understand emotional illness.”

    Oh, irony. I just re read the passage in the book, and it says that MacArthur’s church name, (according to this guy), is “Grace Community Church.” It doesn’t sound as though there’s much grace given to those who suffer from mental health maladies at MacArthur’s church.


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    @ Janey:

    Carlson’s book Why Do Christians Shoot Their Wounded? is very good.


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    @ Jeff S:

    I wonder what they make of Christ’s scars? According to the Bible, Christ still carries the scars from the cross. I guess they’d have to say He must be in sin for still having the scars and memories of what happened.


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    Nicholas wrote:

    This article from October shows that Doug Wilson’s father, Jim Wilson, was a practioner of this type of “counseling”.

    Someone strongly recommended Adams’ first book to me when it first came out. I tried to read it but couldn’t get past the first couple chapters. Don’t know if it was Adams’ writing style or my need to retake my ESL class. It may well have been Jim Wilson who recommended it, but I honestly can’t remember.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Carlson’s book Why Do Christians Shoot Their Wounded? is very good.

    Yes, the guy is really thoughtful and a truly good man.


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    Nicholas wrote:

    Doug Wilson on nouthetic counseling, autism, and ADHD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQHErHhCch4

    Right now, after watching that, I need the bumper sticker that I saw a few days ago that said: ‘Shut the he** (ed) up.”

    Give me phys-co babble any day over this horrific and abusive counsel. “Objects of sympathy” my b*tt (ed), “it isn’t cool” to have a diagnoses, or to have autism, depression, ptsd or any of the illness’s he mentioned.

    No sir I beg to differ, we don’t need to be tough minded, some of us are very broken people because of the way we were sinned against as children. We were innocent, and this type of arrogant biblical speak just heaps more guilt on troubled hearts. It wasn’t our fault, we do not need to repent or name our sin.

    What ignorance.

    Off topic to a degree concerning video I share: Taking anti-depressants kept me alive after receiving this kind of counsel, I tried to kill myself before I had an encounter or my coming to Jesus, and these folks and this type of teaching almost drove me to it again.

    It was a kind Christian doctor that prescribed them for me, after taking them for a few weeks, I cringed in my pew, when I heard from the pulpit that it was a sin that so many Christians were taking anti depressants (according to an article in Christianity Today that he referenced) X pastor ranted on & on how Christians were not trusting in Christ & the sufficiency of the scriptures.

    Happy to report that I went back to my doc and shared with him what pastor had said. He responded, by asking me a question. He asked: ” Do you think I am sinning because I prescribed them for my wife?” Of course not I said, he made his point, I understood that I wasn’t sinning by taking them and he didn’t sin by prescribing them.

    I am just not feeling the love of our tender and all knowing God when I listened to these 2. ugh.


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    @ Gail:

    I would definitely leave any church where the pastor (or rather, hireling) preached against antidepressants, psychiatry, etc. I take an antidepressant for OCD.

    Those who rail against antidepressants, psychiatry, and psychology are just as legalistic, unchristian, and cultic as faith healers who reject the use of all modern medicine. There is nothing Biblical about it, either. It is as absurd as trying to use the Bible as a guide for open heart surgery.


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    Nicholas wrote:

    I would definitely leave any church where the pastor (or rather, hireling) preached against antidepressants, psychiatry, etc.

    Thanks Nicholas, I left ten years ago. Discovered TWW & SSB in the last six months, and what I am learning as I read is: The Truth sets you free. The links you have posted have been invaluable and eye opening to say the least.


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    late to this one but years ago Steve Hays over at Triablogue wrote that the problem with a lot of self-described biblical counselors is that their counsel would only be as solid as their exegesis and that the majority of them show, to put it politely, insufficient competence in exegesis to make them better than conventional psychological treatment. In addition, Hays wrote that it’s too hasty to presume that general revelation and observation of creation precludes secular social sciences from making accurate observations about the human condition. He also added that Martyn Lloyd-Jones was critical of Adams’ simplistic approach. I forget where the link is.

    Where a particular new Calvinist sort is concerned I was disappointed to discover he’d taken up most of the stuff from the charismatic/Pentecostal recovered memory/spiritual warfare fads of the 1980s and 1990s even though corresponding secular ideas had begun to be debunked even as far back as 20 years ago.

    Dave AA, like the Ahithophel reference but wasn’t his relationship to Bathsheba and Uriah an extenuating variable in his joining Absalom’s insurrection?


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    Daisy wrote:

    @ Jeff S:
    I wonder what they make of Christ’s scars? According to the Bible, Christ still carries the scars from the cross. I guess they’d have to say He must be in sin for still having the scars and memories of what happened.

    I don’t know whether you have them much over there, but here in the UK there’s a parallel group of “smothering mother” types who will insist that everybody constantly needs healing for everything. And they’d have said to Jesus, on his post-resurrection encounter with Thomas, that if he’d been hurt then it was understandable, but he needed to stop fixating on his injuries and find healing for them so that he could move on.


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    Gail wrote:

    X pastor ranted on & on how Christians were not trusting in Christ & the sufficiency of the scriptures

    What does Pastor X do when he’s hungry, thirsty or tired? Eat, drink or sleep? No! He trusts in Christ and the sufficiency of the scriptures. What does he do when he cuts his hand? Washes it with soap and water? No! He trusts in Christ and the sufficiency of the scriptures. Does Pastor X take a salary from the church? No! He trusts in Christ and the sufficiency of the scriptures.

    It’s a sheep of height, isn’t it. It’s very easy to brag about my trust in Christ blah, blah-blah, blah-blah, for things that happen without any effort on my part. Especially when I’m comfortably employed in a denomination built to feature and capitalise on the very things I happen to find easy.

    And while we’re on the subject, the scriptures are only sufficient for what God gave them to us for. They’re useless for anything else.

  103. Pingback: Toxic religion part two: Which basics of religion is apparently forgotten by those who hurt others in the name of God? | Biblical Personhood


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    J. Terry wrote:

    I was also told to examine my attitudes and decide if I was a proud or a broken person. This included a list of 35 attitudes that i was to change about myself so I could be a broken person that God could use. This list was compiled by Nancy Leigh DeMoss.

    You’re not the only person who thinks Nancy Leigh DeMoss’s book “Lies Women Believe” has some very destructive statements. She says, “God can heal any marriage,” and leaves it at that.

    Well, Nancy…
    God can heal any cancer, but he doesn’t.
    God can heal any Down’s Syndrome, but he doesn’t.
    God can heal any car accident victim, but he doesn’t.

    I didn’t connect her with the nouthetic world, but that’s exactly where she fits.

    Here’s a list of books tagged “Nouthetic” on the Library Thing website:
    http://www.librarything.com/tag/Nouthetic+Counseling

    Oh, and our friends at Crying Out for Justice have written about her off-base views:
    http://cryingoutforjustice.wordpress.com/2013/01/07/nancy-leigh-demoss-says-women-victims-must-reverence-their-abuser/
    and this:
    http://cryingoutforjustice.wordpress.com/2013/01/04/bad-news-for-victims-from-nancy-leigh-demoss-and-holly-elliff-by-katy/


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    @ Janey:
    When signed up for a “save your marriage” retreat one of the questions I had to ask was whether I thought God WOULD (not could) save the marriage. It was very shaming to answer “no” . . .


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    Jeff S wrote:

    When signed up for a “save your marriage” retreat one of the questions I had to ask was whether I thought God WOULD (not could) save the marriage. It was very shaming to answer “no” . .

    @Jeff S, I believe you. There’s a lot of shaming and blaming put on the innocent party in the marriage. Who came up with the idea that a person could somehow control his/her spouse’s bad behavior? If God does not stop people from doing evil, how is it that we are capable of that?

    Someone gave a teenager close to me a Nancy Leigh DeMoss book. I had a long talk with her about this type of arrogant, judgmental and condemnation-based theology. I’m happy to say she ignored the book. That girl is now in her 20s and is an active passionate Christian with a love for God and for others — and no weird guilt and shame hangups.


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    Nicholas wrote:

    Doug Wilson on nouthetic counseling, autism, and ADHD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQHErHhCch4

    I’m watching and listening to this video right now. Some of the Reformed people think that autism is a SPIRITUAL DISORDER??

    What in the expletive deleted is he TALKING about???

    I have a child with autism. In no way did I think it was a “cool” diagnosis. I was devastated. Even today, I wish my son didn’t have it–although I can see blessings coming out of it. However, it took me nearly ten years to start thinking that maybe God knew what he was doing when he allowed autism to affect my family.

    I *can* understand the whole business of “just because you have a genetic disposition towards that type of behavior doesn’t mean you can’t take responsibility for it.” (my paraphrase). Although Matthew has autism, he doesn’t get away with outright defiance or with doing nothing because “poor baby, he has autism”. Right now, he’s putting away his laundry. (I do admit that he spends too much time with the iPad and the iPod.)

    OTOH, we DO make some allowances for him because he has autism. He would be eaten alive in a regular classroom, so he is educated in a self-contained autism class. We do send him to a “government school” because we can’t afford private school, and to be honest, although I support the right of parents to homeschool, I don’t think I am one of those parents who should. Some people just shouldn’t homeschool, and I wish more homeschooling advocates would realize that. And I also wish that the people who criticize those who use “government schools” would understand that for most of us, there is *just no alternative*. The law says I must educate my child, and I have exactly three options: public, private, or homeschooling. If I can’t afford private, and I don’t feel I’m good with homeschooling, what other alternative is there?

    Most parents who have a child with autism don’t think it’s a “fad” or a “cool” diagnosis. People who think that don’t see the struggle these parents go through year after year, the fight to get services for their children, the struggle to find resources to pay for those services, the worry they have over “what will happen when I’m gone?” Believe me, NO parent would deliberately go looking for a diagnosis that would put them in that position.


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    @ Janey:

    I read a book by a Dr. Ed Wheat (I no longer remember the title) about marriage and how to treat your spouse. Pat Williams, manager of the Orlando Magic, used that book to save his marriage to his wife Jill many years ago. They even wrote a book about it, Rekindled.

    When Pat and Jill moved to Orlando, they fell back into the same behavior patterns . . . and this time, they ended up getting a divorce. Pat is now remarried.

    I have become very jaded about “miraculous” stories such as the above. This week I learned that the founder of Love Won Out, which is a ministry to gays that believes gay people can turn away from that lifestyle, is now again gay. He said he was a homosexual who left the lifestyle, and apparently, he’s back in it.

    I have heard of other “miraculous” stories that have turned out not to be so “miraculous”.

    So where is the power of God in these cases? Did it just not exist?


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    @ Janey:

    I believe God can do anything, because he is God. My struggle comes with the question, *will* he? In 2009, we lost five members of our congregation (out of a membership of a little over 1,000). Two of them died in a freak car accident, a mother and a 15-year-old boy. God could have saved them, but he didn’t.

    Two of them died of cancer; one of brain cancer, the other of leukemia. We had prayed very hard for their healing, and they were not healed.

    One of them — a 14-year-old girl — committed suicide. I have no idea why. Again, God could have miraculously intervened, but he didn’t.

    This sounds like I’m turning my back on God. I am not. But these are cases where I don’t understand why God didn’t intervene. It’s why I’m very reluctant to pray for healing for people. It’s not that I don’t believe God can, it’s that I’m not sure if he will.


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    Nicholas wrote:

    It appears that one of Jay Adams’ books was once used by the International Church of Christ cult: http://www.rickross.com/reference/icc/ICC280.html

    I’ve seen at least one copy of Competent to Counsel on a bookshelf of an ICOC member. I was part of their “parent” movement, the Crossroads Movement. One on one sessions with discipling partners were very much, what is your sin? Where were you responsible?


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    Tina wrote:

    I believe God can do anything, because he is God. My struggle comes with the question, *will* he?

    Tina, I agree with you. I’ve seen amazing miracles. I absolutely believe that God can do anything. But he simply chooses not to in many cases, and I can live peaceably with that.


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    Tina wrote:

    One on one sessions with discipling partners were very much, what is your sin? Where were you responsible?

    A good example, IMHO, of the deception that is all the more dangerous by being only slightly different from the truth. If the question were: OK, given that these things happened, how can you take ownership/authority/responsibility for how you deal with them from now on? What help has God promised, and how can we help you use that help?… then I’d have no issue with it.


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    Tina wrote:

    This sounds like I’m turning my back on God. I am not. But these are cases where I don’t understand why God didn’t intervene. It’s why I’m very reluctant to pray for healing for people. It’s not that I don’t believe God can, it’s that I’m not sure if he will.

    I know exactly what you are saying. I’ve gone back and forth on this issue: to pray for healing or not to pray, especially for people in terminal or critical condition.

    At this point in my life I *always* pray for healing for a Christian because that’s what James 5 says. All I can do is be obedient and make the request. It’s up to God to decide what to do. It’s not my job to protect God’s reputation in case he doesn’t heal …nor to condemn those who aren’t healed.


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    @ Tina:
    Tina, thank you for sharing your firsthand experience in this honest and practical comment. These self-appointed authority figures often either forget or simply do not care that their pronouncements from on high involve actual human beings struggling with real situations. I believe there is no excuse for their ignorance because they don’t seem to even try to learn the facts.


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    I agree – use of wisdom, no matter what counseling paradigm one uses –


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    Jeff S wrote:

    I don’t know why what God CAN do gets conflated with what he WILL do.

    I think many of these people are trying to put God in a bottle, to make Him something they can control, like their own personal genie. Have they never encountered the voice from the whirlwind in the book of Job? The power these people try to take for themselves and exert over others is astounding. They will claim that it’s about taking responsibility for oneself and holding others accountable, but that is false. It’s about arrogantly deluding oneself that God does one’s bidding.

    Their arrogance seems misplaced, to say the least. I wonder if they’ve ever had actual conversations with actual human beings with real struggles … and actually LISTENED.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:

    “Sheep of height” ? American equivalent please 🙂


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    @ Bridget:

    It’s a spoonerism. E.g., “a half-warmed fish” is a half-formed wish; “reeking in spiddles” is speaking in riddles; and a “sheep of height” is a heap of sh

    It’s also worth remembering that in Scotland especially, the expletive term for excrement has an extra “e” on the end.


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    Tina wrote:

    I have become very jaded about “miraculous” stories such as the above. This week I learned that the founder of Love Won Out, which is a ministry to gays that believes gay people can turn away from that lifestyle, is now again gay. He said he was a homosexual who left the lifestyle, and apparently, he’s back in it.

    I had not heard that. I did some hosting of their events in the mega industrial complex world and really enjoyed meeting some of them. There were a few things that really bothered me, though. One was the former Lesbian who came to speak to the room of a thousand people and talked about wearing dresses with hose was a whole new experience for her. Come to find out that was REQUIRED by Focus on the Family for the women. Frankly, it did not come natural for her as it does not for me, a straight. I hate dresses and hose. Give me a tailored pantsuit any day for dress up. And as a former trainer, I think wearing dresses or skirts can even be inappropriate for women on stage who are walking around, picking things up, writing on smart boards, etc. It is simply not feasible and adds burdens to what should be a focus on the content.

    There were other things I won’t go into but I saw these little rules that gave “outward” impressions but meant little, be elevated as rules to live by.
    I did meet some wonderful people, though. But I felt so sorry for that woman being required to wear something so uncomfortable as she gave her testimony. It was just so silly.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    It’s also worth remembering that in Scotland especially, the expletive term for excrement has an extra “e” on the end.

    Which would put them in a Muslim group opposite of the Sunni’s? :o)


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    Anon1 – no, they’ve got an extra syllable. It’s easy to get them mixed up.


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    WenatcheeTheHatchet wrote:

    Dave AA, like the Ahithophel reference but wasn’t his relationship to Bathsheba and Uriah an extenuating variable in his joining Absalom’s insurrection?

    Not meaning to bash the old boy, but I’d say he had fewer extenuating circumstances than any of Absalom’s other supporters. Likely Absalom would have murdered Bathsheba and Solomon once in power. Did Ahithophel imagine he could dissuade him through his nouthetic counseling? Maybe.


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    Janey wrote:

    Tina wrote:
    This sounds like I’m turning my back on God. I am not. But these are cases where I don’t understand why God didn’t intervene. It’s why I’m very reluctant to pray for healing for people. It’s not that I don’t believe God can, it’s that I’m not sure if he will.
    I know exactly what you are saying. I’ve gone back and forth on this issue: to pray for healing or not to pray, especially for people in terminal or critical condition.
    At this point in my life I *always* pray for healing for a Christian because that’s what James 5 says. All I can do is be obedient and make the request. It’s up to God to decide what to do. It’s not my job to protect God’s reputation in case he doesn’t heal …nor to condemn those who aren’t healed.

    A friend of mine says, “We can always ask.” 🙂


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    Why don’t these nouthetic counselors just go the whole way and embrace Scientology? Seriously, there’s little difference.


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    Dave A A, we can’t be sure, but perhaps Ahithophel at that point held it against David that he orchestrated the death of Uriah and showed himself unwilling and unable to do anything about Amnon. In terms of long-form narrative Athithophel’s role in sedition was part of the ripple effect of David abusing his power to take the wife of another man.


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    In looking at Biblical counseling material awhile back I foun
    D some of the material very helpful. The problem I have with Adams is his view of Revelations supersessionistic. Also although confrontation can be effective a times in counseling some come in dealing with traumatic ssues..and need hope/faith restored


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    Dr. Wiilliam Sears exposes that some in the Biblica counseling movementdpn’t prootext passages very well on the “rod” passages. Dee and Deb to be honest mentoring is what really needed and missing.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck: it’s also Cockney rhyming slang, isn’t it? at least, in the ways you use it, like sheep of height.


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    Anon 1 wrote:

    I was appalled at what he taught and he lost me when he ADDED a step to Matthew 18 that was NOT in the bible. He added that we are to take it to the elders before we take it to the entire church. Sorry but that is not in there. He claims it is inherent in that passage.

    I’ve seen this in action before, and is sometimes written into church by-laws. The elders basically decide whether you should obey Christ. They give themselves veto power over the bible. If the sinner confronted is an elder or friend of the elders, it gives them liberty to overlook the sin and tell you it’s not something the church should know. In essence, the elders become the church.


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    numo wrote:

    @ Nick Bulbeck: it’s also Cockney rhyming slang, isn’t it? at least, in the ways you use it, like sheep of height.

    Not official Cockney, nor even Glasgow rhyming slang; it’s a slightly different idea, because a spoonerism contains all the phonetic ingredients of the original words whereas rhyming slang is much harder to decipher.


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    Gail wrote:

    I cringed in my pew, when I heard from the pulpit that it was a sin that so many Christians were taking anti depressants (according to an article in Christianity Today that he referenced) X pastor ranted on & on how Christians were not trusting in Christ & the sufficiency of the scriptures.

    Pastor Charles Stanley of a Baptist church in Atlanta (and I believer he’s a former SBC President?) has said pretty much the same thing in a sermon about confronting anxiety.

    Stanley did not come out and say taking anti anxiety medications is sinful, but he chided Christians for using medication.

    Christians with anxiety are (according to Stanley) supposed to use the Bible alone or faith in Christ alone.

    I find that odd, because in a long quote in the book “Why Do Christians Shoot Their Wounded,” the author mentions that in a speech years ago Stanley defended the use of psychology and psychiatry in these areas, and he ridiculed the “Bible only / prayer only/ Christ only” response to mental health problems as being naive.

    I don’t know how or why Stanley flip- flopped on this.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:

    Gotcha. The extra “e” did me in on figuring that one out. It does get a bit more complicated with spelling differences across the pond.


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    Anon 1 wrote:

    One was the former Lesbian who came to speak to the room of a thousand people and talked about wearing dresses with hose was a whole new experience for her. Come to find out that was REQUIRED by Focus on the Family for the women. Frankly, it did not come natural for her as it does not for me, a straight. I hate dresses and hose. Give me a tailored pantsuit any day for dress up. And as a former trainer, I think wearing dresses or skirts can even be inappropriate for women on stage who are walking around, picking things up, writing on smart boards, etc. It is simply not feasible and adds burdens to what should be a focus on the content.

    This is what Jehovah’s Witnesses insist upon too. It’s to see Christians acting like cultists, but that’s what this entire thread is about.


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    For anyone wanting to learn more about Christianity and psychology, I highly recommend this book:

    http://www.amazon.com/Counseling-Christianity-Approaches-Stephen-Greggo/dp/083083978X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1367865441&sr=8-1&keywords=stephen+greggo

    It features four professionally-trained Christian psychologists and one nouthetic practitioner. It’s a great synthesis and analysis of the issues involved in the age-old battle between psychology and nouthetics.

    In my opinion, the professional psychologists win by a landslide.


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    This is great, friends. Thank you. Meg


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    Loren Haas wrote:

    My wife and I have been leading DivorceCare recovery groups for seven years. It is put out by a group called “Church Initiative” in North Carolina. It has been very helpful in restoring the lives of divorced people and doing it in a church setting. They recently updated their videos and work books and some of it is troubling. They have moved much farther in the direction of nouthetic counseling that they were before.

    Loren, oh no! You are absolutely right. If you are on Church Initiative’s forum look at the May 6, 2013, post by the official moderator for DivorceCare leaders forum (password protected group). She is promoting BiblicalCounselingCoalition.org and an article written by a NANC fellow (nouthetic).


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:
    My favourite definition of Spoonerism: It’s when you get your mudds wordled!


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    I came across Competent to Counsel in the mid 70’s, when I did part of a social work degree before dropping out (long story). Our little group of Christian social work students decided to take a look at it and compare it to the secular psychology we were learning. After a couple of weeks we just could not continue, we were unanimous that it was just too awful, and its self-righteous, blame-the-victim mentality turned all our stomachs. Considering the vast array of denominational backgrounds and secondary doctrines that we held, that was quite an achievement.

    Many years later I came across it again in a very abusive house church I was part of for a while. I can still remember the conversation I had with the church “leaders” one evening, when they tried to urge me to stop seeing my (Christian) counsellor for my abuse issues. “We’ve read Competent to Counsel and we would love to counsel you”

    “Do you know anything about Recovery from Child Abuse and .. (various other issues I was dealing with)” I asked.

    “No, but we know the Bible, ” they replied (and I vividly remember how chirpy they were when they said that)

    “Thanks very much,” I answered, “but I prefer to see someone who has expertise with my particular problems.”

    I am a passionate believer in freedom of thought and information, but for many yearts I have believed that if there’s one book in the whole world that should be burned it is that one. It is SO dangerous as a tool of spiritual abuse.


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    @ Loren Haas:

    Oh gosh. Under their (http://biblicalcounselingcoalition.org/) “popular topics” page, they have no material for singleness! (Popular Topics Page)

    They have “singleness” written down under “relationships” category, but it’s not a link, because they have no articles to link to.

    Meanwhile, they have a healthy enough list of marriage / parenting links/ topics/ articles.


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    And thanks to Deb and Dee for covering this topic, and ones related to it.

    A lot of people, Christians included, have mental health disorders or problems such as depression, anxiety, some have bipolar disorder.

    Did you notice it’s only been a few weeks since Pastor Rick Warren’s son died from suicide/depression, and despite getting an avalanche of media coverage for about a week afterwards, now on some of those same Christian news sites, one sees hardly a word about depression, suicide, etc. It’s back to business as usual.


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    Here is a quote from Jay Adams book Competent to Counsel (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1970). On page 70 Adams writes:

    “As a reformed Christian, the writer believes that counselors must not tell any unsaved counselee that Christ died for him, for they cannot say that. No man knows except Christ himself who are his elect for whom he died.”


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    Nicholas wrote:

    As a reformed Christian, the writer believes that counselors must not tell any unsaved counselee that Christ died for him, for they cannot say that. No man knows except Christ himself who are his elect for whom he died

    Why we are in trouble in the evangelical world. So, I guess we should not listen to Adams because he may not be on of the elect as well?


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    @ dee:

    In Reformed theology, a non-elect person can believe that they are a saved, believing Christian for a time, but they will eventually fall away. So a Calvinist can’t really “know” that he is saved or one of the elect.


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    Nicholas wrote:

    @ dee:

    In Reformed theology, a non-elect person can believe that they are a saved, believing Christian for a time, but they will eventually fall away. So a Calvinist can’t really “know” that he is saved or one of the elect.

    Just to clarify, that isn’t my view. As a Lutheran, I believe in universal atonement, and that all who truly believe on Christ are saved. If they fall away from the faith, then it means they have fallen from grace.


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    dee wrote:

    So, I guess we should not listen to Adams because he may not be on of the elect as well?

    ha ha. That is exactly how we should respond to such teaching!


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    Al Mohler fires a shot at Psychiatry: http://www.albertmohler.com/2013/05/20/the-briefing-05-20-13/

    It is not that some of the criticisms of the DSM made by others that he mentions aren’t legitimate. The problem here is that Mohler fails to acknowledge that there is a such thing as legitimate mental illness, that many people actually do need psychotropic drugs, and that not everything is a “sin issue.” He could have qualified his remarks in this way, but he didn’t.

    I can imagine many Mohler fans listening to the (possibly alarmist) comments of Mohler in the above podcast and then thinking, “well, I and my family better not have anything to do with psychiatry then.”