Understanding the SBC: The Autonomy Thing Is Drying Up, Dealing Well With Abuse Is Unlikely and the Danvers Statement Reigns Supreme

Paul Pressler and wife (#ThisIstheSBC)

True story: A man in a Lutheran church, upon overhearing Dee say she used to be Baptist, said: “I didn’t take you for a Baptist.” Dee immediately responded. “They didn’t take me for a Baptist, either.”


A few days ago, the SBC President posted this tweet.

Barber is making an important and strong statement. Believe it when somebody tells you who he (or his organization) is. This is the new and improved SBC offering up “the Danvers Statement.” What is going on?

Women who are called pastors are out at the SBC.

However, churches can call them ministers and get around it. Here’s the deal. The SBC claims that the churches are autonomous. I don’t believe that whatsoever. I wrote the following post in June 2023. The SBC Begins the Process to Outlaw Women Pastors of Any Kind in the SBC, and the SBC Abuse Task Force Moved More Slowly Than Expected. This is not a denomination in which the churches are autonomous. I was called by an attorney who is planning a lawsuit regarding a sex abuse case in the SBC. He asked about my thoughts on the matter. I suggested he get to know the Law amendment. It will be one more proof that the SBC is beginning to rack up rules and regulations for all churches. At some point, autonomy ceases to exist.

I wrote about this in Mike Law Says His Amendment Banning Women Pastors in the SBC Will Prevent the Oppression of Women and Children. The SBC Executive Committee Will Allow Messengers to Vote on It. Many in the Executive Committee advocated voting against this proposal. Given the overwhelming approval to extend the right boot of fellowship to Saddleback et al., this should not come as a surprise.

I was not expecting this to pass and had hoped it would go to a committee to “study it.” I was wrong. I quickly educated myself on the process. This vote will need to be confirmed at the SBC Convention next year. If it passes, it will become the law of SBC land. The Roys Report presented Southern Baptists Start Process to Name Only Men As Pastors.

I read the following and imagined the bloodletting that will begin if this passes next year, and unless something unexpected happens, I think it will.

Law, pastor of Arlington Baptist Church, has compiled a list of 170 women serving in pastoral roles. Fewer than a third are senior pastors. The remainder include associate pastors and children’s pastors.

Who will be the Tomás de Torquemada of the SBC, visiting all 170 women and turning them over to Satan?

This is likely to pass at the next convention. It means that women will not be allowed to call themselves “pastors” in any position, including overseeing the baby ministry. Yes, there have been women pastors in the SBC, but they have been few and far between. The few left will likely be eliminated. However, all the churches must do is change their job title to “minister,” and everyone will return to business.

There are a number of nice guys in the SBC, like William Thornton, who wrote the following post: SBC Executive Committee to recommend over one thousand churches be expelled.

Autonomy at work. It just seems like severe overkill to target women sub-pastors in this fashion.The problem is that once the SBC makes this negative requirement official (the wording is “Does not affirm, appoint, or employ a woman as a pastor of any kind”), where could the EC go except to recommend en masse to the convention in session that all these churches (anonymous, self-appointed doctrine and vocabulary police have been working on a list) be expelled?

Actually, it could be worse and probably will be, since there are not a few misogynists and sexist SBCers who gleefully pursue any avenue to degrade, demean, and dismiss women

…It could be worse in a secondary manner in that the wording of the amendment applies to “affirm” and “appoint” not just “employ” a woman as “pastor of any kind.” The inexact meaning of “affirm” could mean any public comment by a church staff member or lay church member. I suppose I could be guilty of affirming women as pastors, since I see no issue whatsoever with any woman serving as a sub-pastor under the authority of the male senior pastor. Maybe I’ll join Mike Law’s church and put that small congregation in jeopardy. Maybe he wouldn’t have me :).

The die is cast. I predict that no church in the SBC will have a woman in any position who holds the job title of pastor. There will be fewer and fewer male pastors like Thornton willing to work with a female “pastor of kiddos.” That day has come and gone.

In my opinion, the SBC is not autonomous. Lawyers of victims, I hope you are reading this. As an aside, does the EC still have insurance to cover a lawsuit?

As Thornton says:

Here’s the worst problem: No one really cares. The denomination is in free fall. Another (old) abuse case lawsuit hit the SBCEC and SBC inbox just this week. Does the EC even have insurance anymore to manage these things which will doubtless grow? I don’t know the answer to that.

Does the EC even have insurance coverage if they get sued (which they will?)

Complementarianism, as defined by the Danvers Statement and men like CJ Mahaney, will be the “rule” of the day in the SBC. This goes far beyond not being called pastor.

Let meander to this “illustrious” statement, overseen and defined by men like CJ Mahaney, Joshua Harris (I kid you not), and others. How embarrassing for Bart Barber. Here is the link he gave.

https://grbc.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/The-Danvers-Statement-on-Biblical-Manhood-and-Womanhood.pdf

They sure know how to pick them. On the council, you will see illustrious names like CJ Mahaney, who will never submit to an investigation, and Joshua Harris, who is off in his own world now and most likely would throw up if he saw his name still listed. Dorothy Patterson is listed on the council, and her hubby, the infamous Paige Patterson, is on the Board of Reference. Then there is Mary Kassian, a distinguished professor (SBTS) of women’s studies. Mary Kassian Compares Women Who Teach Men in Church to Fornicators. (I kid you not.) And “Updated with new link 09/24/19: Mary Kassian, Distinguished SBTS Professor, “Is Not a Particularly Credible Witness.”

Make sure you understand what this means. If you are a true believer, these are now the basis of what you should believe, according to Barber.

  • In the church, redemption in Christ gives men and women an equal share in the blessings of salvation; nevertheless, some governing and teaching roles within the church are restricted to men”
  • the increasing promotion given to feminist egalitarianism with accompanying distortions or neglect of the glad harmony portrayed in Scripture between the loving, humble leadership of redeemed husbands and the intelligent, willing support of that leadership by redeemed wives;
  • wives should forsake resistance to their husbands’ authority and grow in willing, joyful submission to their husbands’ leadership
  • Both Old and New Testaments also affirm the principle of male headship in the family
  • We are convinced that a denial or neglect of these principles will lead to increasingly destructive consequences in our families, our churches, and the culture at large.

If one neglects these principles, churches and the American way will be destroyed. This is the new SBC. I do have a question for Mr Barber for which there will be no answer.

Please tell me one thing that a man can do in leading the family that the woman (wife) cannot do?

What’s going on with the Sex Abuse Implementation Task Force?

They have been stalled. It’s been another three months with no report. Here’s my prediction. They will invent a nice database with pastors who’ve been convicted. That’s it. There will be no credibly accused pastors on the list. My guess is the SBC will have a difficult time getting abuse insurance for the EC since it is known that “They hide things.” Remember the secret list? So do insurers and attorneys. Could it be that the SBC will have to dissolve and reestablish under a new name? It is possible, so don’t laugh.

What does this mean for members of the SBC?

  • I believe that men and women will need to keep their mouths shut in the new SBC or risk the increasingly popular “church discipline.” Don’t say I didn’t warn you.
  • The SBC will exhibit continuing fractures; unless the two sides can agree, there will be a denominational split.
  • There will be further declines in membership if they continue to recommend resources like the Danvers Statement.
  • There will be a number of churches that will leave the SBC if they enforce the Law amendment.
  • They will kick out lots of churches after the Law amendment passes.
  • A number of churches will change the word “pastor” to “minister” or “director.” They will not change their job descriptions so that it will be a game.
  • Mike Law will now find some way to vet job descriptions at churches and make up a new amendment to kick out even more churches.
  • Eventually, the SBC will be successfully sued when some clever lawyers prove that the denomination’s church is not autonomous.
  • CJ Mahaney’s Sovereign Grace Churches will become increasingly visible in the SBC and continue to be as creepy as ever. CJ Mahaney won when he fell into the loving arms of Al Mohler, who is now trying to pretend he never knew CJ.
  • Paige Patterson will buy Paul Pressler’s stained glass memorial window from Liberty University and gift it to Johnny Hunt.
  • Lots of current-day SBC leaders will continue to pretend they know nothing about Pressler. A future survey will show that 90% of them did. The other 10% were too busy figuring out how to get a job at the North American Mission Board.
  • David Platt will get tired of the lawsuits, buy a $ 2 million home in the Florida Keys, and produce a new book on how to live radically as a beach bum.
  • Dorothy Patterson will get arrested for trying to sneak back into the SWBTS mansion( Is it still called Pecan Manor?) to reclaim her teacup chandelier and boxes of hats.
  • Jerry Falwell Jr. will decline to be the head of the EC leaving the EC nowhere to turn except to offer it to Mike Huckabee.
  • Jack Graham of Prestonwood Church will be detained by Plano police after the planned lighting on fire of the flying drummers for the grand finale of the Xmas production goes painfully awry. As he is led away, he’s heard yelling, “Wait til you hear what I’m going to do next year with a 300+ Mrs. Santa Claus kickline! They’ll be coming in from Vegas to see it!” He will be sent to David Platt’s radical beach bum retreat in the Florida Keys. It is at the same location where Johnny Hunt was heard singing “Wasting Away in Margaritaville.” All three will form Beach Bum Baptist which will have franchises in San Diego, the Riviera, and the Turks and Caicos. Hunt refuses to wear flip-flops and is fired.

I better quit while I’m ahead.


Comments

Understanding the SBC: The Autonomy Thing Is Drying Up, Dealing Well With Abuse Is Unlikely and the Danvers Statement Reigns Supreme — 100 Comments

  1. “True story: A man in a Lutheran church, upon overhearing Dee say she used to be Baptist, said: “I didn’t take you for a Baptist.” Dee immediately responded. “They didn’t take me for a Baptist, either.””

    HAHAHAHAHAHA! I resemble that remark! I spent decades as a Southern Baptist, but never felt at home there. They always knew what was on my mind, if you know what I mean. When the New Calvinists swarmed in to take over the SBC, I waved goodbye.

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  2. “… the SBC is beginning to rack up rules and regulations for all churches. At some point, autonomy ceases to exist”

    Central to the New Calvinist takeover of the SBC, the denomination is in the process of becoming an authoritarian body that desires to dictate rules and regulations to all SBC churches … which would minimize, if not eliminate, local church autonomy.

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  3. From the post “wives should forsake resistance to their husbands’ authority and grow in willing, joyful submission to their husbands’ leadership.”

    In Genesis 3, after the sinful Fall, Eve is told that her husband will rule over her:

    “To the woman God said, “I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”

    So the biblical guy preachers and teachers put women in their place, “under men” ‘cuz that’s what the Bible says, right?

    Now what does Genesis 3 say about men after the Fall?

    “To Adam, God said, ‘Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you to not eat of it, Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.”

    Guy preachers use Genesis 3 to put women down and keep them in their place. HOWEVER, these preachers IN NO WAY TOIL FOR A LIVING (the curse put on men). These preachers live on the dole from their respective churches, placing themselves outside of the curse. They are on the dole, even while these same guys teach & preach to put women in their place.

    A curse for thee but never for me, is kinda how these men operate. They dodge a bullet themselves, even as they rapid fire on women.

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  4. Ava Aaronson,

    Love your comment Ava. I’ve always maintained that if women have to submit to their husbands “because it’s part of “God’s command in Genesis 3” then why do we allow men to use air conditioned tractors? Or why do we allow women to use epidurals during childbirth if it’s God’s will they should suffer?

    As usual, it’s a pharisaical view of Paul’s writings that leads to stuff like biblical counsels on manhood and womanhood. The theodudes neglect that it was Paul who wrote “the letter kills but the spirit gives life”, and “we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, not in the old way of the written code.”

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  5. Muff Potter:
    It’s hard to believe that all this hullabaloo is based on some Greek words all jammed together on crumbling parchments, and based solely on plumbing received at birth.

    I suppose when ‘scripture’ contains the fantastical like talking animals, 800 year old people, angels and women having giant offspring, naked drunk patriarchs and flying wizards anything is on the table.

    It’s biblical literalism, baby!

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  6. These guys are just jealous of Solomon’s ‘concubine a go go’. 900 concubines and they have to stick with one wife. No slave girls like Abraham, just marriage.

    They really need to look on the bright side! The patriarchs could never enjoy a shrimp cocktail and porkchop sandwiches.

    And having your nuts nipped for god is completely your choice!

    They need to understand Christianity’s benefits extend far beyond redemption and salvation.

    Btw, does Jesus explicitly say you can’t have more than one spouse? I can’t find it specifically, just says you can’t divorce.

    Oh, I get it, that’s what the concubines are for! That Solomon was so wise. Just like Hugh Hefner!

    Happy theologizing!

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  7. Muff Potter:
    It’s hard to believe that all this hullabaloo is based on some Greek words all jammed together on crumbling parchments, and based solely on plumbing received at birth.

    Not only that, but the Greek word translated “authority” (authentein) in 1 Tim doesn’t appear anywhere else in the NT and is rare in other ancient Greek literature. Long story short, we’re not exactly sure what it means. What we do know is that it is definitely NOT equivalent to excousia, the word Paul most often uses when writing about authority.

    Forming a doctrine based on one passage and containing a hapax legomenon (word that only appears once in the entire NT) is irresponsible and violates several common rules for biblical hermeneutics (interpretation).

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  8. So, if you have the wrong plumbing, you can’t be called a pastor, but if you’re a male pastor who commits sexual assault, you can still call yourself a pastor… Until public awareness and legal liability threaten the church.

    The denomination can’t step in when sexual abuse or assault has happened or been covered up because churches are autonomous, but that autonomy is thrown out the window if they have a female with the title of pastor.

    The judgment seat of Christ, nor the US legal system, is what these churches should be fearing most.

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  9. We have a sad and desperate war in the Middle East with other tensions spawning there daily. The Ukraine remains in crisis. Tension with China is at its highest point since the Korean “Police Action.” In our own land we are in a desperate political period of deciding just what kind of country we want to be. At our southern border there are people who need a response and we are not sure exactly what that might be. In every city, town, and burg there are local heart wrenching issues. And in the midst of all, the SBC President chooses at this moment to remind all how the Danvers Statement defines complementarism.

    Yep, exactly what we needed today . . .

    And the SBC cannot figure out why baptisms continue to drop.

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  10. Marg Mowczko has great articles on women in leadership , including many dealing with terms such as ‘authentein’ and other grammatical issues as well as discussions of the contexts of passages which the authors of the ghastly Danvers Statement and the leaders of the BFM 2000 base their mistaken views on.

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  11. Luckyforward: war in the Middle East … Ukraine remains in crisis … Tension with China … desperate political period … southern border … local heart wrenching issues. And in the midst of all, the SBC President chooses at this moment to remind all how the Danvers Statement defines complementarism.

    Evidently, putting female believers in bondage is more important to current SBC leaders than lifting up the hope of Christ in a world of turmoil. Installing an ugly “beauty of complementary” in every SBC church supersedes preaching the Gospel to ALL people throughout the earth. SBC is done; it just hasn’t quit yet.

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  12. Tom Rubino: if you have the wrong plumbing, you can’t be called a pastor

    Tell that to all the female believers in the New Testament church who were pastors, prophets, and teachers. You have to distort the teachings of Paul to exclude spiritual gifting because of gender … which is what the New Calvinists have done. The “spiritual abuse” list keeps growing in SBC.

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  13. “it could be worse and probably will be, since there are not a few misogynists and sexist SBCers who gleefully pursue any avenue to degrade, demean, and dismiss women” (William Thornton)

    From a retired SBC pastor who spent three decades in SBC life. He’s seen the good, the bad and the ugly of SBC leadership … in recent days more bad and ugly, than good.

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  14. “The die is cast. I predict that no church in the SBC will have a woman in any position who holds the job title of pastor.”

    God-gifted female believers within SBC will now be known as “ministers” and “directors” … while more spiritually-enlightened and Biblically-true Christian organizations will allow them to go through the pearly gates as “Pastors.”

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  15. “We are convinced that a denial or neglect of these principles will lead to increasingly destructive consequences in our families, our churches, and the culture at large.”

    I guess the numerous women who played influential leadership roles in the early church had dysfunctional families, disorderly churches, and no spiritual impact on the culture?

    Good Lord, it’s the current SBC leadership who are setting up the denomination for “destructive consequences”!

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  16. exclude spiritual gifting because of gender …
    Max, o

    Understatement. The Danvers Statement and complementarianism is so much more, so much worse than that.
    If one believes, adheres to this interpretation, it means that once a woman marries, the husband takes the place of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in her life…. and her salvation. The husband becomes her mediator, her prophet, and her intercessor. The husband decides what God’s will is for the wife. The Holy Trinity is voided for a wife. She becomes subject (in the name of God) to the interpretations and commands of a fallible, mortal man.

    We were members of a very strict-on-women Calvinist leaning SBC church for several years. In my heart and mind, I battled through this teaching for several years. There were moments when I sincerely doubted if women even had souls….. wondered women even mattered to God….. wondered – if I did have a soul – would my husband be the one sitting in the bema seat to judge me….
    (Who needs Jesus and the Holy Spirit when you have a husband? Why bother studying the Bible when a man will tell you what God’s word means?)

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  17. Controlling women is far more important to the SBC than sexual abuse within their ranks.
    Women exposed most of the abuse in the SBC.
    My theory: They think that if they can control, rein in, shut down, and shut up the women, the abuse allegations and negative public exposure will be bought to a halt, or at least greatly diminished.
    No more bad publicity, even if the abuse continues unabated.

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  18. Max: Central to the New Calvinist takeover of the SBC, the denomination is in the process of becoming an authoritarian body that desires to dictate rules and regulations to all SBC churches … which would minimize, if not eliminate, local church autonomy.

    With one major exception:
    LIABILITY.
    WHENEVER A CHURCH GETS SUED OR A SCANDAL EXPOSED, THEN AND ONLY THEN IS THE CHURCH COMPLETELY AUTONOMOUS AND INDEPENDENT.

    Same playbook as Calvary Chapel: Totally Autonomous and Independent when that is to their advantage, one Mononlith Moving in Lockstep under Papa Chuck when that is to their advantage.

    Disperse for Defense, Concentrate for Attack.

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  19. Luckyforward: We have a sad and desperate war in the Middle East with other tensions spawning there daily. The Ukraine remains in crisis. Tension with China is at its highest point since the Korean “Police Action.” In our own land we are in a desperate political period of deciding just what kind of country we want to be. At our southern border there are people who need a response and we are not sure exactly what that might be. In every city, town, and burg there are local heart wrenching issues. And in the midst of all, the SBC President chooses at this moment to remind all how the Danvers Statement defines complementarism.

    DISPLACEMENT BEHAVIOR.

    When everything is spinning out-of-control and you’re completely overwhelmed, find something you CAN control and micromanage it to death. “SEE? I’M IN CONTROL! SEE? SEE? SEE?”

    My own experience in this was in the late Seventies, when I was working at the HQ of a large restaurant chain. The company was circling the drain, our front-desk receptionist was on a first-name basis with every process server in the county, checks to our creditors were held 90 days in a drawer before being mailed out (after they expired), and Top Management was obsessed with Enforcing Dress Codes. We had VPs of Whatever going around making sure everyone had properly-knotted neckties and pocket rulers for proper hair length for Business Wear.

    Never mind that to Biblical Men(TM), keeping Wimmen In Their Place is more important than anything else.
    “NO UPPITY WIMMEN! GAWD SAITH!”

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  20. Jack: I suppose when ‘scripture’ contains the fantastical like talking animals, 800 year old people, angels and women having giant offspring, naked drunk patriarchs and flying wizards anything is on the table.

    It’s biblical literalism, baby!

    EXACTLY, JACK.
    Word-for-Word in Kynge Jaymes Englyshe.

    That’s what happens when you take Poem Truth as Math Truth. Narratives and poetry as checklists of Axiom, Axiom, Axiom, Fact, Fact, Fact. The Old Stories of God and Man handed down and written when there was only Poem Truth, not Math Truth.

    And you also lose any sense of depth when you stay at the surface level – Quote, Quote, Quote, Word For Word.

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  21. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): We were members of a very strict-on-women Calvinist leaning SBC church for several years. In my heart and mind, I battled through this teaching for several years. There were moments when I sincerely doubted if women even had souls….. wondered women even mattered to God….. wondered – if I did have a soul – would my husband be the one sitting in the bema seat to judge me….
    (Who needs Jesus and the Holy Spirit when you have a husband? Why bother studying the Bible when a man will tell you what God’s word means?)

    Sadly, the “beauty of complementarity” has become that ugly for a lot of women trapped in that aberrant church culture. Jesus came to set us free … ALL of us, regardless of race, class or gender.

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  22. I heard that the SBC’s insurer, Brotherhood something, notified the SBC a few months ago that they were not going to renew the SBC this year. That was before the most recent settlement.

    The SBC has not only been subject to the charge of not caring, it has really acted foolishly. It paid millions for a report that really wasn’t a report, but was a political document. It put someone on the sex abuse task force who had represented sex abuse survivors and probably has some kind of financial deal with the organization that wrote the report and is on the sex abuse hotline to take calls about abuse. She purportedly is working for the SBC in this, but is she steering complainants to attorneys and is she getting a referral fee.

    The SBC refused to take the advice of its longtime legal counsel and waived attorney client privilege against the advice of bunches of lawyers. This resulted in many members of its executive committee who work in the secular world having to resign because their companies won’t let them sit on the board of a company without directors and officers liability coverage. And waiving attorney client privilege is not something insurance companies like. SBC President Bart Barber crowed that there was nothing to worry about. The SBC would easily have insurance and the SBC would get new lawyers that were better than the old ones. Until they weren’t. And until the insurance company pulled out.

    Rumor also is that the SBC has been working with insurance brokers to find replacement insurance. Supposedly, there are options-EXCEPT that none of the carriers will quote coverage if the SBC has this database it has promised.

    Again, none of this is confirmed or published but it seems logical, and it may explain why lots of people think the database idea is not going to happen. Maybe they’ve heard the same rumors.

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  23. Good grief. I am out of patience with this nonsense. If you genuinely believe that spiritual authority is reserved exclusively for men and that women are supposed to be lovingly led and protected by men, then STEP UP AND PROTECT THEM. If you want to call men servant leaders, then LET’S SEE THEM SERVE. If you genuinely think women are just as important to God and bring valuable gifts to the table, THEN GIVE WOMEN SEATS AT THE TABLE. If you want to say “the man is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the Church, who loved her and gave himself up for her” THEN TRY GIVING UP A LITTLE BIT FOR HER, PAL. It’s well past time for them to put up or shut up!

    The SBC is a farce. They can drum up the votes to expel churches who have women pastors, but they can’t warn people about pastors who rape congregants. I cannot for the life of me understand why the leaders behind this anti-woman push do not see what an absolute stinking dumpster fire they are in. If nothing else, simple self-interest should tell them to avoid these optics, but they are too deep in their CBMW echo chamber.

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  24. Headless Unicorn Guy: Slave Girls of Gor, the Live Role-Playing Game.

    Oh, man. John Norman. A game store near my apartment sold these books, I think Tor was the publisher. Judging by the covers they got more and more….kinky. some of it was downright nasty. Dude had serious issues.

    I’d be surprised if that stuff is legally published anymore. Here in Canada you can’t publish overtly misogynistic material like that. Violates the hate laws.

    But so does Leviticus and Deuteronomy so go figure.

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  25. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): Understatement. The Danvers Statement and complementarianism is so much more, so much worse than that.
    If one believes, adheres to this interpretation, it means that once a woman marries, the husband takes the place of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in her life…. and her salvation. The husband becomes her mediator, her prophet, and her intercessor. The husband decides what God’s will is for the wife. The Holy Trinity is voided for a wife. She becomes subject (in the name of God) to the interpretations and commands of a fallible, mortal man.

    We were members of a very strict-on-women Calvinist leaning SBC church for several years. In my heart and mind, I battled through this teaching for several years. There were moments when I sincerely doubted if women even had souls….. wondered women even mattered to God….. wondered – if I did have a soul – would my husband be the one sitting in the bema seat to judge me….
    (Who needs Jesus and the Holy Spirit when you have a husband? Why bother studying the Bible when a man will tell you what God’s word means?)

    Nancy2(aka Kevlar),

    Thank you so much for writing your comment. 🙂 I’ve read and heard — as I’m sure have many other TWW readers and commenters — FAR too many stories of intimate partner abuse and church abuse that have resulted from the kind of expletive deleted crap spewed out by the twisting of the Bible (Scripture) in the Danvers Statement, as well as by the twisting of the Bible (Scripture) done by many of the people listed on the Danvers Statement in the books and / or articles / and or posts they’ve written.

    If the SBC is going down “the Danvers Statement” road, the SBC is going to get even uglier than it already is….

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  26. CMT: If you genuinely believe that spiritual authority is reserved exclusively for men and that women are supposed to be lovingly led and protected by men, then STEP UP AND PROTECT THEM. If you want to call men servant leaders, then LET’S SEE THEM SERVE. If you genuinely think women are just as important to God and bring valuable gifts to the table, THEN GIVE WOMEN SEATS AT THE TABLE. If you want to say “the man is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the Church, who loved her and gave himself up for her” THEN TRY GIVING UP A LITTLE BIT FOR HER, PAL. It’s well past time for them to put up or shut up!

    CMT,

    I love the way you wrote this…. 🙂

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  27. From Bart Barber’s tweet in the OP:

    When anyone one this app says, “____ is not a (true) complementarian,” it is your right to ask them which words in this statement the accused person disavows.

    If they will not or cannot, it is your right to wonder why not.

    I don’t know the context of Bart Barber’s tweet, and I’m assuming the word “app” is short for the word application….

    Is the word “right” the most accurate word to use? Does the person asking the question actually have the right to ask? And the questioner might wonder, but is it actually a right?

    What does this kind of wording say about Bart Barber, especially given the route the SBC appears to be going?

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  28. William: The thing is, all these statements (Danvers, Nashville, etc.) are not official SBC teachings.

    Historically, Southern Baptists have had a long aversion to creeds. There is definitely a trend toward creedalism under New Calvinist rule in SBC. Members of local SBC church plants are required to sign the reformed Westminster Confession of Faith.

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  29. LOL Max! My guess is going to be yes, yes she is still wrong. Can she rule over the trees? Not sure. So there is no more read the Bible for yourself it is just wait for us to put out the Cliff Notes (i.e. Danvers Statement). I am so thankful Proverbs 31:11 is alive and well in my marriage. Now I am off to go buy a field. By myself.

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  30. JJallday: So there is no more read the Bible for yourself it is just wait for us to put out the Cliff Notes (i.e. Danvers Statement).

    A New Calvinist’s worst nightmare is for the children of God to read the Bible themselves under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit … they fear that the pew will find out that much of their doctrine has holes in it.

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  31. “I suppose I could be guilty of affirming women as pastors, since I see no issue whatsoever with any woman serving as a sub-pastor under the authority of the male senior pastor.“-William Thornton
    +++++++++++++++++

    Thank you, sort of.

    It’s hard to find the right word to describe the experience of not being human enough to exist without reporting to a man when you’re always 3 steps ahead of him in understanding and awareness, and work harder and longer hours (with more education, experience, and further developed skillsets) with less pay, benefits, and other perks.

    Not to mention being barred from potential tax advantages that the man enjoys simply for being born male.

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  32. Jack: Oh, man. John Norman. A game store near my apartment sold these books, I think Tor was the publisher.

    Somehow that fits. “Tor of Gor…”

    Judging by the covers they got more and more… kinky. some of it was downright nasty. Dude had serious issues.

    And what’s worse, the “Gorians”.
    Gor fanboys who tried to Live the Dream for real.

    And then they met their Prophet John Norman at a con – a short wet noodle of a man completely under the thumb of a domineering wife. Like a Forties cartoon of a mousy milquetoaast henpecked husband. I think that explains a lot about his writing.

    Just like Douggie ESQUIRE of Vision Forum was into cosplay but wouldn’t admit to it, so a lot of these Biblical Manhood Complementarian types are into Gor but won’t admit to it.

    “Just like Gorians, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”

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  33. 1) What happens when a husband takes a stroke and can’t look after himself or develops dementia and his wife has to take care of him? How can he be the head in authority then? Sounds like being up a creek without a paddle. … Being the head doesn’t mean having authority, it means to be the one to lead in being loving.
    2) Looking for more lawyers sounds the same as what the MAGA leader is doing.
    3) Regarding the sad state of our world and the border matter: Well, Franklin Graham is doing a preaching tour in the south “to give Hope” he says. I doubt that the migrants will get to hear his preaching message, or that the churches he speaks in will bus them to have them sit in their pews. Is Samaritan’s Purse working in this area?

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  34. Headless Unicorn Guy: That’s what happens when you take Poem Truth as Math Truth. Narratives and poetry as checklists of Axiom, Axiom, Axiom, Fact, Fact, Fact. The Old Stories of God and Man handed down and written when there was only Poem Truth, not Math Truth.

    And you also lose any sense of depth when you stay at the surface level – Quote, Quote, Quote, Word For Word.

    One would expect that theologians, having to deal with so much narrative text, would have at least an idea of semiotics, of different kinds of narrative, of metaphor and parable, …

    Instead, out of fear, they stick to literalism. Often, the fear is of their own pew-sitters. Live in fear long enough, and the ideas you only pretended to believe at the beginning will become second nature.

    You can’t tell me that anyone who says that the story of Job is to be read literally isn’t either mindless and cruel or a fundamentalist (i.e., mindless and cruel).

    The story of Job, understood literally as a narrative that happened exactly as described, is enough to abandon your faith.

    That some pastors do not have enough experience of narrative outside the bible, or are unwilling to apply that experience to biblical texts, is bad enough. That they don’t realise that the book of Job doesn’t even pass the smell test of a literal report of what happened does not recommend them as interpreters of texts.

    Fundamentalism’s main problem is bibliolatry – for many of them the bible and their interpretation of the passages of the text that they use¹ are the first, second and third person of the trinity.

    In the same way that Jesus is fully man and fully God, the bible is God’s word to us and human word², written by human authors, authors who often can be recognised across documents by their way of expressing themselves.

    ¹ Certain passages, like the sermon on the mount, are almost never used by the fundamentalists.

    ² Unlike what the quran says of itself, the bible is not “dictation from God” and doesn’t claim it, with the exception of the 10 commandments. Not even Jesus’ words in the gospels are “dictation from God”, as there are often variations in the exact words – written from memory of the authors, or from collections of Jesus’ words, written from the original witnesses memories.

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  35. For the record, in my own never humble though it should be opinion:

    When the SBC signed onto, or accepted, or issued, the BFM2000 they officially ceased to be Baptists. “Timeless truths” outrank Jesus Christ. Sure mark of a cult. And when you really think about it, refutes the very Deity of Christ.

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  36. Jeffrey Chalmers: If you seriously read the Bible, especially the teachings of Christ, you will think, contemplate, and maybe, just maybe, think and act differently than what specific “preacher boy thinks”

    Here’s the deal about sitting under a New Calvinist preacher … they seldom, if ever, preach sermons from the Gospels … they seldom, if ever, talk about Jesus … they seldom, if ever, read the words in red. Yep, don’t allow your Christian experience to be governed by what any preacher boy says … get in the Bible and dig it out yourself!

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  37. Gus: Instead, out of fear, they stick to literalism. Often, the fear is of their own pew-sitters. Live in fear long enough, and the ideas you only pretended to believe at the beginning will become second nature.

    Wear the Mask long enough and the Mask becomes your Face.
    Just like Elron Hubbard, Anton LaVey, Rush Limbaugh, Adolf Hitler, and the end of that Twilight Zone episode.

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  38. Gus: Fundamentalism’s main problem is bibliolatry – for many of them the bible and their interpretation of the passages of the text that they use¹ are the first, second and third person of the trinity.

    If they were ushered into the Timeless Halls to behold God in all His glory, they would turn their backs on Him to use His Shekinah as a reading light for their Bible study.

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  39. linda: When the SBC signed onto, or accepted, or issued, the BFM2000 they officially ceased to be Baptists.

    There are numerous SBC churches which never endorsed the BFM2000 (a benefit of autonomy). They still operate under the BFM1963 statement of faith, which does not include changes the New Calvinists made to the document during the 2000 revision (Al Mohler was on the revision committee … think about it). The BFM2000 definitely trends toward Calvinism and creedalism, something that non-Calvinist Southern Baptists (there are still millions) chose not to accept.

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  40. Frances: Calvin wanted people to read first his Institutes of the Christian Religion and then the Bible.

    That’s known as indoctrination. Plant the seed, establish the grid, put it through a theo-filter ‘before’ they read Scripture … get them to believe that Calvinism = Gospel. The Holy Spirit is a much better teacher than Calvin … folks would do well to read the Bible first so they can sort out half-truth and mistruth vs. Truth.

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  41. Marlita Silver,

    “Being the head doesn’t mean having authority, it means to be the one to lead in being loving.”
    +++++++++++++++

    Lead lead lead…

    Seems to me like a gimmick designed to appeal to men to get them to do certain things. Appealing to the image of a powerful hero.

    It’s insulting to both men and women.

    No woman needs a man to lead her. We’re all responsible, capable adults.

    A ridiculous notion for a woman to play-act in turning that off, even in part, so that men can play-act by being responsible for her.

    As I see it, I think it’s a plan hatched by powerbrokers in shadowy conference rooms sitting around conference tables in order to shape men’s behavior for a pre/determined outcome.

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  42. Lead lead lead………. No woman needs a man to lead her. We’re all responsible, capable adults.
    Elastigirl,

    Yeah. Every time I heard or read that stuff, I think:
    What??? The men must be sorely afraid that we’re going to dart out into the highway and get hit by a car!!!

    One of these days, I’m going to say it out loud (really LOUD)…. when the circumstances suit me.

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  43. “This is the new SBC.”

    After awhile, every organization takes on the personality of its leadership. Now solidly under the control of New Calvinists, SBC is becoming authoritarian, mean-spirited, manipulative, intimidating, domineering, arrogant … characteristics of the NeoCal movement wherever its leaders set up shop. And it’s coming to a church near you! Pew beware! The only way to stop it is to starve it.

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  44. Max,

    “Why oh why does Jesus’ namesake religion regress the standard so low”

    “Put anything under the control of unholy men and they will make it unholy.”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    i think it goes back to America’s puritanical roots.

    Everyone’s scaredy-cat afraid. Which does 2 things:

    1. a high level of control has to be initiated (with rules & oversight)

    2. opportunity to be the controllers (power)

    ..which both serve to keep fanning the flames of fear, since that’s how they thrive.

    signed, the accidental aliterist

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  45. Headless Unicorn Guy: And what’s worse, the “Gorians”.
    Gor fanboys who tried to Live the Dream for

    And that’s the problem when fantasy supplants reality.

    Further to – laws. It turns out it was DAW that published the books and get this

    “During the mid-1990s, an attempt was made to publish an authorized graphic novel adaptation of the Gor series under Vision Entertainment. The project collapsed under a combination of financial issues and the nature of the imagery, which violated Canadian law, where the printer was located.[15]” – Wikipedia.

    Here’s my next point, if these “fantasy” books can be curtailed (and rightly so), why does the bible get a pass?

    Abraham’s wife gave him a slave girl. There’s passages that call for some groups to be…well…we know how god views them.

    These passages have caused untold misery if not persecution and….worse.

    The reality is that “progressive” Christian thought is really an offshoot of the enlightenment.

    I remember debating one clown here who thought owning people was not so bad – even biblical. That I shouldn’t expect god to run on my rules.

    Yeah, until god tells me otherwise, I’ll run my own show, not the biblical one.

    As those prophets AC/DC so eloquently stated “who made who”

    Men and women are equal. In every way. Full stop.

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  46. Jack,

    “Yeah, until god tells me otherwise, I’ll run my own show, not the biblical one.”
    +++++++++++++++

    x+y=c

    what are called ‘godly biblical interpretations’ disagree

    +

    ‘godly biblical interpretations’ are compatible with cruelty

    =

    i’ll stick with my perspective.

    Clearly it’s as good as any of the other many conflicting, contradictory varieties.

    Plus the added bonus features that it’s moral, ethical, and kind instead of cruel.

    And my own integrity is intact.

    And i sleep well.

    (but this is old news)

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  47. Max: IMO, even Paul wouldn’t follow the NeoCal version of Paul!

    “I am not a Marxist.”
    – Karl Marx, near the end of his life

    “I am not a Darwinist.”
    – Charles Darwin, near the end of his life

    Because no-life Fanboys have this way of taking their obsession, elevating it to Cosmic Importance, and running with it as far as they can (usually off a cliff).

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  48. Jack: Headless Unicorn Guy: And what’s worse, the “Gorians”.
    Gor fanboys who tried to Live the Dream for real.

    And that’s the problem when fantasy supplants reality.

    Shortly after Y2K in SF litfandom, there was actually a group called “Live the Dream” which as far as I could tell was a “Slan Shack” (fannish commune) or wannabe movement evangelizing for the Martian sexual morality in Robert Heinlien’s Stranger in a Strange Land. A novel described by YouTube channel “Overly Sarcastic Productions” as:
    “10% Mike,
    20% stars,
    15% concentrated power of Mars;
    5% water,
    50% cult,
    and 100% topics that are very Adult!”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jAkplrZci0

    Live the Dream tracts & flyers (and the occasional room party announcements) popped up at SF litcons for five years or so, then they dropped completely out of sight.

    As my old DM said upon the breakup of a local Furry Sexual Slan Shack:
    “Slan Shacks do not have a long life”.

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  49. Oracle at Delphi: Rumor also is that the SBC has been working with insurance brokers to find replacement insurance. Supposedly, there are options-EXCEPT that none of the carriers will quote coverage if the SBC has this database it has promised.

    Maybe Oracle would consider running for the EC? We need someone smart an can lay it out on the table. We have to be aware of the side effects of all proposals.
    Question: Does this mean a database with just convicted in a. court of law pastor or all?

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  50. Gus: Instead, out of fear, they stick to literalism.

    That’s when they run into trouble. The Bible was written using many literary methods: poetry, simile, a story to explain a problematic subject, such as the age of the earth. Similes and metaphors abound. Jesus is described as the Rock, the Truth, the Cornerstone, etc. Sometimes, literalism is applied, like the description of Jesus’s death and Resurrection. What a book!

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  51. dee: William: The thing is, all these statements (Danvers, Nashville, etc.) are not official SBC teachings. They have been used by some of the entities

    Then why did Barber discuss the Danvers statement?

    He gets brownie points for that from Mohler & the Mohlerites who now control the SBC. Subordinating women and draining the spiritual daylights out of them is now the in-thing at SBC.

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  52. Dee,

    “Turks and Caicos” – I can’t quite remember the name of the outfit I heard of, but my penurious well meaning neighbours who had joined it, were reverse money laundering from their slender and hard won means, for low calibre missions to that rather uninhabited place.

    “the SBC is beginning to rack up rules and regulations for all churches” – including the ones we mustn’t be told are SBC, neocal, anglican, Vineyard, NF, Bethel, AOG (top-down systems). Their joint propaganda was sold on many high streets in England as ordinary christianity, until lockdown or shortly before. “Evangelical” is now a faux badge of honour among the identilemmings.

    Max,

    Piper would find it hedonist to live the life Paul lived, his body punished to pieces.

    Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Arminius actually wasn’t an “armenian” (as it is called by some), he was a better Calvinist (so called) than most (he was similar to John Knox and Martyn Lloyd-Jones who are persona non grata now) but he died of an illness halfway into his work in honest logic and not from the deepening political persecution.

    Those “armenians” and Jonathan Edwards adherents (who are all accepted into the TGC) are heirs of W James and more similar to each other than they would be comfortable to admit. WJ’s descendant D Dennett says that children are animals, dirt, or machines.

    A person like Wesley who wouldn’t have called himself Calvinist but agreed with what we might call the proper version of reformed, was Spurgeon.

    Wesley would have had stern words for some of his self proclaimed offshoots.

    Jansenism and Jesuitry / Ignatianism like some of the puritans, sailed too close to the wind of intrusion and manipulation.

    Headless Unicorn Guy,

    HU Guy on Fri at 10.54 a.m, This was part of the body theology that the popes and the moral majority tried to force on me. If I had used women while they were too naive to notice (but I was too naive to do so), I’d have only been lonely half this time.

    Ava Aaronson: Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.

    This is a warning to men (et al) not to toy with others’ boundaries (as Adam did by considering himself superior to Eve) and is a description of a dynamic as a Just So story. Compromised adults (including Ahabs like Prof Kassian) are compromising boys and girls from the same motive. Notice how the up to date downloads, and anything printed by Grudem and his many fans, change “for” to “against” to reinforce their warped point: how dare their victims develop growth and self-respect?

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  53. Gus: I’m pretty sure you’re one of the coolest grand-dads.

    As long as my grandchildren think that, I’ll be OK. Our oldest grandson once introduced us in the checkout line at Dairy Queen to the lady in front of us “This is my Papaw and Gramma. They are cool.” So I got him two dips of ice cream instead of one 🙂

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