A leggy cosmic creature comes out of hiding in this new infrared view from NASA Wide-field Infrared Survey Explorer. The spiral beauty, called IC 342 and sometimes the hidden galaxy, is shrouded behind our own galaxy, the Milky Way. NASA
“Miracles are a retelling in small letters of the very same story which is written across the whole world in letters too large for some of us to see.” CS Lewis
The SBC leaders are in New Orleans, and the messengers, who vote on the amendments, are on the way. This promises to be quite a week. The SBC is under the microscope since its leaders chose to kick our Saddleback Church for having female pastors. Rick Warren is hoping the messengers will change their minds. In the meantime, a theodude by the name of Mike Law has proposed an amendment to cast into eternal darkness any SBC church which has a female pastor, even if she is the pastor of facility management.
Thanks to TWW reader, Jerome, we know a bit more about Mike Law. He was an intern under Mark Dever. Given 9Marx’s penchant for retroactive discipline, Law is following his mentor quite well. Here is a video he made of his proposed constitutional amendment. He made a list of churches that employ any woman in the role of pastor, no matter the responsibilities. And he wants the SBC to expel any church that calls a woman as pastor of any kind.
According to Law, women cannot serve as pastors ever! (Question 7)
We as Southern Baptists know what a pastor is and who should be a pastor. A pastor/elder/overseer/bishop is a man called by God and a local church to shepherd the flock. Among other things, men holding the office preach, pray, provide oversight, and exercise authority in the church (see Acts 20:17-38; Ephesians 4:11; 1 Timothy 3:1-7; Titus, 1:5-9, Hebrews 13:17; 1 Peter 5:1-5). Southern Baptists have always agreed on this.
Men, as godly pastors, will protect women from oppression, except they haven’t. Where was Mikey ??? (Question 17)
No. Sadly, while men can and have oppressed women in some contexts throughout history, not all male headship is wrong. In fact, godly male headship is woven into the fabric of created order. It is affirmed in the New Testament as normative for leadership in the local church (1 Tim 2:12-15; 3:1-7; Titus 1:5-9).
What is more, the solution for churches where men have failed to protect women and children is not for sisters in Christ to assume the role assigned to men. Rather, the solution is for both men and women to live faithfully and fulfill God’s calling for their lives. Just as it would be wrong for a woman to try to become a husband to make up for her husband’s failed leadership, it is likewise wrong for a sister in Christ to serve as a pastor in order to make up for the failed leadership of the men in the church.
The office of pastor is reserved for men, not for them to preserve and protect oppression, but because it is God’s design, and we ought not think that we are wiser than God. The way to protect women and children from oppression and ensure their flourishing in the local church, is for men to be Christlike men, and for qualified men to lead and shepherd the church (1 Tim 3:1-7; 1 Pet 5:1-4).
It’s all about authority. Men have it, and women don’t. (Question 22)
No. God has designed the church to sit under the preaching of qualified male pastors. Male pastors should not authorize a sister to violate the clear teaching of Scripture, namely, that women are not to exercise authority over a man by preaching and teaching (1 Tim 2:12).
We may not disconnect the function of the office from the office itself. In other words, the function of teaching and preaching is part of what establishes a pastor’s authority. The authority is exercised in teaching according to God’s Word, which is ironically being subverted by any sister who preaches, meaning that when a sister preaches she is disqualified by the very book she is expositing. Churches who have male pastors wrongly permitting sisters to preach under their “authority” misunderstand and cut against the grain of God’s design for his church.
So guess what happened today at the meeting of the Executive Committee before the SBC Convention?
Were they eating really good steak dinners at the expense of the tithers? Well, I don’t know, but I know their boys know how to spend the money. While wondering what was on tap for dinner, the Executive Committee voted to allow a vote on Mike Law’s amendment at the meeting. Today, Liam Adams of The Tennessean wrote Southern Baptists to vote on measure enshrining ban on women pastors at annual meeting.
Southern Baptists will have the opportunity to vote on a measure that would enshrine a ban on women pastors within the denomination, the Southern Baptist Convention Executive Committee decided Monday.
The decision by the SBC Executive Committee ahead of the 2023 SBC annual meeting doesn’t guarantee the eventual passage of the measure, which is a proposed amendment to the SBC constitution. The amendment is one of several major decisions facing Southern Baptist voting delegates, called messengers, that will permanently affect the status of women pastors in the SBC.
However, the EC is recommending voting against the amendment due to the slippery slope argument.
Executive committee members voted to approve a recommendation to forward the amendment to ban women pastors to the full convention for a vote, but with an explicit recommendation, the messengers vote against the amendment.
…Amendment proponents argue the measure cements a position the SBC already embraces. The SBC is a complementarian denomination, meaning it believes men and women have certain assigned roles.
Opponents of the amendment, though most agree with its intent in principle, worry it creates a slippery slope for other doctrinal statements becoming standards for affiliation with the SBC.
Ahead of the 2023 SBC annual meeting, some Southern Baptists have discussed a possible compromise calling for a task force that would study what it means for a church to be in “friendly cooperation” with the SBC in accordance with the Baptist Faith & Message 2000.
So, I sit back and wait to see if all male pastors in the SBC will prevent the oppression of women and children. Why am I laughing?
PS: It is my understanding that Amy Lee Stockton not only preached at Moody Bible Institute but at Capitol Hill Baptist Church on a number of occasions. I wonder if that is included in the history of Mark Dever’s church.
Ok, so the way to protect women is for men to be “Christ like men” and women not to be pastors. So, their solution when these men are not Christ like? Will there be a rule about that? For instance, when they don’t love their wives like their own bodies as mandated in Ephesians 5, will the church step in and protect the wife and kids by providing a place for them to live? If a man is being punched/abused, he will protect his own body. Or will she have to wait for an investigation?
Arrogance is the primary characteristic of New Calvinist leaders. Mike Law is no exception. He was obviously indoctrinated well under Mark Dever. He is out to please his old mentor with yet another slap in the face of female believers. Oppression? The Calvinistas are masters of it.
“He (Mike Law) made a list of churches that employ any woman in the role of pastor, no matter the responsibilities. And he wants the SBC to expel any church that calls a woman as pastor of any kind.”
A related article in the Baptist News:
“I’m one of the female pastors on the SBC’s hit list” (Carlisle Davidhizar)
https://baptistnews.com/article/im-one-of-the-female-pastors-on-the-sbcs-hit-list/
“It is my understanding that Amy Lee Stockton not only preached at Moody Bible Institute but at Capitol Hill Baptist Church on a number of occasions. I wonder if that is included in the history of Mark Dever’s church.”
SBC missionaries Lottie Moon and Annie Armstrong made frequent appearances preaching in SBC pulpits. Annual mission offerings at Christmas and Easter are named after them. The New Calvinists wouldn’t let them preach today, but they are thrilled to accept millions of dollars taken up in their names … money they use to advance the NeoCal kingdom in SBC ranks.
“PS: It is my understanding that Amy Lee Stockton not only preached at Moody Bible Institute but at Capitol Hill Baptist Church on a number of occasions. I wonder if that is included in the history of Mark Dever’s church.”
Will there be retroactive measures? In fact, how deep, how far back in history, does this ban on women pastors, women teachers, women leaders, go?
Time to watch “The Women’s Balcony”: https://www.menemshafilms.com/womens-balcony
“Israel’s #1 Film of the Year! An accident during a bar mitzvah celebration leads to a gender rift in a devout Orthodox community in Jerusalem, in this rousing, good-hearted tale about women speaking truth to patriarchal power.”
Men, as godly pastors, will protect women from oppression, except they haven’t. True, unfortunately. Well, Hey, if they don’t want women pastors, let’s get rid of all the women in charge of the nursery, women’s bible studies, Sunday school teachers, etc. We don’t want to risk having any of them becoming “pastors.” Mark Dever and his theodudes ride again.
The office of pastor is reserved for men……….. The way to protect women and children from oppression and ensure their flourishing in the local church, is for men to be Christlike men,
Hey Mikey,
Do you mean men like Paige Patterson, Augie Boto, Johnny Hunt, and and Roger Oldham??? Men like all of those who still want to keep everything hush-hush?
Men like those who have been in the leadership positions in SBC churches since the founding of the SBC….. the male pastors, deacons, elders, and youth pastors who have been doing such a bang-up job of always protecting women and children????
Is it safe to assume that all of those churches where abuse happened was pastored and controlled, not by godly men, but by women? Was it the women who kept the secret list of 700+ abusers in the churches?
No? How has that worked out thus far???
And after Mike Law Jr’s internship with 9Mark Dever, Dever selected Law to be a ‘pastoral assistant’ under him for a number of years:
https://web.archive.org/web/20061020235738/http://www.capitolhillbaptist.org:80/CC_Content_Page/0,,PTID324006%7CCHID683858,00.html
Law was spokesman for Dever when Dever ran for Vice President of the SBC in 2006, and lost:
https://baptistnews.com/article/updated-calvinist-pastor-georgia-evangelist-likely-to-square-off-as-1st-vp-nomination/
“Dever’s historic congregation, which dates from the 1870s and is located just five blocks from the United States Capitol, currently has 533 members, according to Dever’s assistant, Mike Law.”
Old Timer,
And only men should put up holiday decorations, prepare and take meals to the sick, manage the kitchen and fellowship hall, prepare and bring the covered dishes, and clean the area after the fellowship meals (and the bathrooms).
They should have formal titles, too!
*Pastor of the nursery
*Pastor of women’s studies
*Pastor of holidays, table centerpieces, and floral arrangements
*Pastor of love through nutrition
*Pastor of kitchen management
*Pastor of food preparation
*Pastor of cleanliness is next to Godliness……….
……And last, but not least *Pastor of pastors.
And the women who would do their jobs for them should have their memberships revoked.
These fools focus on casting out women pastors in the name of maintaining biblical qualifications for eldership while, at the same time, violating the elder qualifications of being above reproach and having good reputations outside the church by their pathetic lack of response towards abusers in their own ranks who devour the vulnerable ones in their own flocks. Sickening.
Just want to put this out there.
Sometimes when men assess women, even religious leader-type men, even in a place of prayer, even with the Holy Spirit present, the guy leader can get it all wrong.
Of note, from 1 Samuel, World English Bible, Public Domain:
“As Hannah continued praying in the temple before Yahweh, the priest and judge named Eli saw her mouth moving but could not hear her voice. Hannah spoke in her heart. Only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard. Therefore Eli thought she was drunk. Eli said to her, ‘How long will you be drunk? Get rid of your wine!’”
Oops. All wrong. Who was walking in the Spirit here? A simple praying woman. Who was walking in the flesh? The priest, judge, and therefore religious leader; he didn’t have a clue what he was talking about when he inappropriately addressed and accused the praying woman.
In the end, Hannah’s prayers were answered beyond her wildest dreams.
The priest/judge/leader Eli and his evil predatory sons all died tragically. This did not end well for the priest/judge/leader nor for the predators he protected.
God had His way. We choose our path and God has His way – always.
SBC is certainly struggling to identify with that these days. They are being reproached in the media and blogosphere on a daily basis! And it’s well deserved reproach for all the world to see. A sad commentary for the largest Protestant denomination in America. I expect the SBC annual meeting being held in New Orleans this week will provide yet more fodder for their critics.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
If it weren’t for faithful SBC women, many SBC churches would have closed their doors years ago. They do most of the outreach and ministry and are the best Sunday School teachers and prayer warriors in SBC. SBC men ain’t all that – there are exceptions, of course, but women have always been the best Christians in SBC ranks. I say all that from a 70-year snapshot as a Southern Baptist … I became a “Done” when the denomination surrendered to the New Calvinists, forfeiting its gifting in evangelism and mission.
I think Mike Law is falsely assuming all SBC churches have similar leadership models. But they don’t.
My husband was an SBC pastor. His church was congregational, “led” by three deacons (all men) who were nominated by and voted into place by members. Two of the deacons would sometimes teach and preach. The third was not able to; he was mentally capable and certainly qualified on the basis of character, but a brain injury made extended verbal communication difficult. So, not qualified to lead, per Mike Law, but wouldn’t have made his list.
Then we visited a different SBC church several years ago that was led by a male pastor. There was a board of elders (no deacons), one of whom was a woman. The pastor made clear to us that the elder board was purely advisory, he was the one actually leading and making decisions. But this church would have made Mike Law’s list.
The blessing and the curse of a “network” of “autonomous” churches.
silencing women seems to be a hallmark of misogyny, which is and always was a great sin
any thoughts as to what the vote will bring?
?
people can change
sometimes
(sigh)
Is there a leadership model proposed or mentioned here? Or is it just simply elimination of and prohibition of women in leadership, women teaching, women preaching, women pastoring?
Leadership (administration), teaching, and pastoring are all gifts of the Holy Spirit given without regard to gender (Rom 12, 1 Cor 12, Eph 4). So there’s that. (Preaching is never listed.)
The Holy Spirit will do as He pleases, with or without the SBC, with or without these rules, mandates, policies.
Key: Go where God is. Shake the dust off the sandals and move on from the godless. Their loss.
The award for distinguished service presented by the SBC Ministers’ Wives’ organization each year is named after a woman preacher who was nearly elected Vice President of the Southern Baptist Convention a century ago!
But they don’t mention things like that since the Fundamentalist Takeover. The Willie Turner Dawson Award originated in the mid 1900s; in recent decades it’s been awarded to women like Dorothy Patterson, Rhonda Kelley, Janet Hunt, Carol Ann Draper, Jeana Floyd, etc.
Willie Evelyn Turner Dawson’s husband, a prominent pastor in Texas, acknowledged that she was a better preacher than he was. (Texas Baptists: A Centennial History, p. 129)
In 1933 the SBC Annual Meeting was in Washington, D.C., and Willie Turner Dawson and Amy Lee Stockton were listed among the ministers in town preaching in local churches:
“Baptist Visitors to Occupy Pulpits”
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83045462/1933-05-20/ed-1/seq-9/
Yes, Willie Turner Dawson preached at Fifth Baptist, and Amy Lee Stockton preached at Capitol Hill Metropolitan Baptist!
A decade before that, in 1923 (a century ago!) Dawson was nearly elected Vice President of the Southern Baptist Convention:
http://media2.sbhla.org.s3.amazonaws.com/tbarchive/1923/TB_1923_05_31.pdf
pp. 2-3 “Election of Officers”
“Dr. W. C. Reeves of Clarksville, Tenn., presented the name of Mrs. J. M. Dawson, of Waco, Texas, for vice-president, it being the first time in the history of the organization that the name of a woman had been mentioned in that connection.”
“The comment was quitely passed among those delegates opposing membership of women in the convention that this step was but an advance toward the goal of having a woman as president of the convention, a consummation greatly to be deplored by this element of Baptists.”
but Dawson was nearly elected:
“Mrs. J. M. Dawson of Texas, received the next highest vote of the many nominees for vice-president”
Max,
Time and again, I’ve seen women do most of the work on both short-term and long-term projects and local mission work, while men got all of the credit and praise…. (That is the perfect world for some of these “godly” men.)
….. except for the “And we’d like to thank all of the ladies for the lovely meal” …. while the most dedicated of those ladies are still cleaning up the kitchen and the fellowship hall.
I know. I was involved in it all for longer than I knew I should have been.
While the local WMU chapters get the silent treatment in churches.
“…women…ensure their flourishing in the local church, is for men to be Christlike men, and for qualified men to lead and shepherd the church”
+++++++++++++++++++
i mean, this is one of the funniest things i’ve read in a while.
to think my ‘flourishing’ is dependent on random man in a pastor hat…
someone say something totally boring so i can stop laughing…it’s getting hard to breath…
9Marksist Geoff Chang concedes that Spurgeon’s sister Eliza Jackson had a preaching ministry:
https://www.spurgeon.org/resource-library/articles/the-queen-of-preachers-spurgeon-his-sister/
“Eliza Rebecca was the second child of John and Eliza Spurgeon, younger only to her big brother Charles. She would go on to marry a Baptist minister, Rev. W. Jackson of Waltham Abbey. It’s unclear when she begins to preach, but by mid-1870, we begin to find reports on Eliza’s preaching…”
Max,
I wonder if there’ll be a split in the SBC.
It happened in Lutheranism with emphasis on the gender-roles debate.
What think you Max?
Is a split inevitable?
“The way to protect women and children from oppression and ensure their flourishing in the local church, is for men to be Christlike men, and for qualified men to lead and shepherd the church”
++++++++++++++++++++++
so how is it these dunderheads are suddenly going to know how to do any of this? is it their magic member?
In my personal library I have the book “God’s Approval of a Women Preacher” by Amy Lee Stockton, who preached so many times at Capitol Hill Baptist Church in the 1910s, 1920s, 1930s, and 1940s. (At the time it was called Metropolitan Baptist Church).
And she wasn’t the only woman to preach at that “Always doctrinally conservative” church.
https://www.capitolhillbaptist.org/about-us/our-history/ “Always doctrinally conservative”
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83045433/1915-01-09/ed-1/seq-5/
1915 “11 a. m., preaching by Mrs. Lucy Waterbury Peabody”
Way back in the 1800s, “always doctrinally conservative” Capitol Hill Baptist Church had this commitment:
“If any of the ladies will take charge of any branch of the work the male members of the congregation are willing to turn it over to them.”
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn87062244/1894-09-09/ed-1/seq-5/
Yes, women taught men at “always doctrinally conservative” Capitol Hill Baptist Church:
1944: “Several men’s Bible classes have been taught by women. One class, taught by Miss Gertrude Smith, had to disband because all its members are in the armed services. Women teaching 25 years or more are Miss Frances Guschewsky,…”
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83045462/1944-09-09/ed-1/seq-8/
Miss Frances Guschewsky two decades earlier (1925) with her men’s Bible class on the steps of Capitol Hill Baptist Church, photo in newspaper:
(in lower left corner)
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83045462/1925-06-14/ed-1/seq-98/
Yet now we have Mike Law Jr, recently of the same church, declaring that:
“women are not to exercise authority over a man by preaching and teaching”
“teaching and preaching is part of what establishes a pastor’s authority”
“male pastors wrongly permitting sisters to preach under their ‘authority’ misunderstand and cut against the grain of God’s design for his church”
(FAQ #22 on Mike Law Jr’s campaign website for his proposed Amendment to the SBC Constitution) https://sbcamendment.org/home-2/frequently-asked-questions/
“…A pastor/elder/overseer/bishop is a man called by God and a local church to shepherd the flock…”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
well, it’s just getting silly. I did a search on church staffing websites (because I’m procrastinating). All of these positions are currently open:
Pastor of Assimilation
Stewardship pastor
Pastor of Human Resources
Operations Pastor
Facilities pastor
Pastor of First Impressions
Sending Pastor
Connections pastor
Recovery Pastor
Soul Care Pastor
Formations Pastor
Next Steps Pastor
NextGen pastor
Hospitality pastor
Care Pastor
Pastor of Emerging Communities
Pastor of Early Childhood
Media pastor
Production Pastor
Digital Engagement pastor
Creative pastor
Communications pastor
Pastor of technology
Pastor of Programming
Pastor of Sports Ministry
Pastor of recreation
.
.
…i’m surprised i didn’t see Pastor of Scuba and Pastor of BBQ.
It’s been the same story from men who want authority for hundreds, thousands?, of years.
Jesus.
He is who I look to.
No man will ever be my authority. My equal yes.
Pastoral position that was recently filled by Beth Howe, wife of SBC Executive Committee Vice President Jonathan Howe, I found it was advertised on The Gospel Coalition’s [!] Job Board:
https://web.archive.org/web/20230323094713/https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/job/minister-of-students-and-discipleship/
“Minister of Students and Discipleship at Woodmont Baptist Church”
“Job Description
Qualifications
A man or woman whose life embodies the qualities of 1 Timothy 3:1-7 & Titus 1:6-9…”
“The candidate should have a desire for pastoral ministry within the church”
“The candidate must be qualified with spiritual gifts of shepherding, leadership, teaching, and discipling”
“Woodmont is affiliated with both the Southern Baptist Convention and the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship”
“Women serve in all levels of leadership”
Those positions are already filled: https://www.dispatch.com/story/lifestyle/faith/2014/08/15/union-county-priest-sees-holy/23913427007/
and
https://www.pastorshousebbq.com/
His comment makes no sense. He obviously believes that the only way to ensure that women “flourish” is by oppressing us.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
yeah, it’s weird. “the way to protect women from oppression & ensure their flourishing is to oppress them.” (calling it Christlike, of course)
is it magic? delusion? something else?
Bridget,
indeed.
elastigirl,
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
elastigirl,
Evidently Deus Ex machina Golden Buzzer Machine has been relegated to a Superunderpastor!
https://riverchurchipswich.org/
(Bonus fun fact: “vibrant” means “wobbly”)
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
Tom Rubino,
Ava Aaronson,
I keep tellinya, this is to disguise that they are vetoing the gifts of everybody (“another gospel”). To quench often is to grieve and to grieve often is to blaspheme. They will be asked questions about limiting the chances of their sons to bear fruits.
It is a case study in social psychology of religion: if they succeed in this what will they try to slip by us next? The discernment of the non-elite depends crucially on grasping Scripture MEANINGS not “letter”.
Take your boys on one side in front of their sisters and expose the lies told by their dads against them. Male AND (not: “or”) female AS JOINT CATEGORY – I also include the non-binary in the JOINT CATEGORY – He made them! Let not anyone unmake whom God made which means let not anyone sunder whom God has joined in various ways.
The war against boys is the same war as the war against women, as I saw when my classroom was invaded by prurient officialdom when I was 14 when the trendy vicars had stopped praying.
Why isn’t this idea coming from lady commenters – as well?
I’m not SBC, but Church of Christ. Churches of Christ are currently having the same debate. My own Church of Christ, in 2019, decided to allow women full participation in worship, but decided against female elders. This was after a two year study by both our elders and a group of very godly women, and a 12-week study in small groups in our congregation.
I am so torn and so tired by this issue. On the one hand, I can’t get past I Timothy 2:12 and I Corinthians 14:34-35. On the other hand, it doesn’t make sense to me that my preacher and his daughter could preach the exact same sermon, word for word, and my preacher be praised and his daughter condemned. I said that on an Internet forum I’m part of and got the response, it doesn’t make sense to you that God can save whoever he wants and can assign them different roles as he sees fit?
We’ve had a lot of people leave since COVID, and one of my best friends has flat out told me she thinks our congregation is making a couple of mistakes. She does still believe I am her sister in Christ.
Everyone believes they are right and can “prove” they’re right by Scripture. Our current sermon series is about being in the “wilderness”, and that previous sentence has been the “wilderness” I’ve wandered in for the last over 30 years. And I don’t think there’s a way out.
Tina,
I hear you, Tina. It’s exhausting, isn’t it? I left my former church of many decades because they thought they were the only ‘right’ ones and I was starting to think about things differently. Of course, I was ‘disciplined’ for leaving. Sigh
Stop the Presses! Women’s “Leadership” at the SBC Annual Meeting This is on the schedule for tomorrow:
SEBTS Women’s Leadership Breakfast
7:00 AM – 8:00 AM
New Orleans Convention Center • Rooms 225-227
More Info: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/together-we-go-womens-leadership-breakfast-at-sbc-2023-tickets-580458114847
SBC Annual Meeting today and tomorrow. Here is the livestream of the main stage:
https://acts2.vhx.tv/videos/acts247-live-feed-24-7
[You have to sign up with a e-mail adress. In addition the ‘Acts2’ channel is on Roku, etc.]
Detailed schedule, (subject to change, they often run behind, times are Central):
https://acts2.vhx.tv/videos/acts247-live-feed-24-7
scheduled for 5PM today, Tuesday, is the Abuse Reform Implementation Task Force Report
Oops, here is the schedule:
https://sbcannualmeeting.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/2023-SBCAM-Schedule-FINAL.pdf
For show & tell only. Token women to make it appear that they can have a leadership role in SBC. Looks good to an outside world looking in, but just smoke and mirrors as female SBC members know.
Well, it had a big split in 1991 over various issues, including women in ministry. The Cooperative Baptist Fellowship was formed to accommodate Southern Baptists exiting the SBC at that time. SBC has a long history of fussing, fighting, and splitting over this or that. I’m sure it will split again or the numbers will just continue to dwindle until there is no more SBC to split. The New Calvinists may very well finish it off.
Max,
It’s just a way for the wives that tag along to pass the time…… while the men are attending their conferences.
Busy work.
When a church mess (whatever it may be) causes a believer to retreat to the wilderness, Jesus will come looking for you. Don’t waste the wilderness – it’s a place where you can grow closer to the Lord without all the church noise.
And they better walk into the convention center several steps behind their dudebro husband to demonstrate they are complementarian.
Pastor of … the list is endless, as your research indicates.
Doubt very much that any of this refers to the pastoring gift given by the Holy Spirit through individuals to the church as a body, as listed in Ephesians 4. This indicates how far off the rails the churches and denominations are with regard to titles, positions, jobs, activities and salaries versus the Holy Spirit giving a GIFT to the church body through each one of the body’s church members. The only hierarchy in the Body of Christ is that all members walk by the Spirit, not by the flesh. We can learn from each other, but we submit to Christ alone.
In the three lists of Holy Spirit given gifts to the church (Rom 12, 1 Cor 12, Eph 4), pastoring is mentioned only once.
The Holy Spirit gifting the church through each church member’s gift is described in detail.
Rom 12: “For I say through the grace that was given me, to every man who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think reasonably, as God has apportioned to each person a measure of faith. For even as we have many members in one body, and all the members don’t have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another, having gifts differing according to the grace that was given to us:”
1 Cor 12: “Now there are various kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are various kinds of service, and the same Lord. There are various kinds of workings, but the same God, who works all things in all. But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the profit of all.”
1 Cor 12: “For as the body is one, and has many members, and all the members of the body, being many, are one body; so also is Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all given to drink into one Spirit.
“For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot would say, ‘Because I’m not the hand, I’m not part of the body,’ it is not therefore not part of the body. If the ear would say, ‘Because I’m not the eye, I’m not part of the body,’ it’s not therefore not part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the smelling be?
“God has set the members, each one of them, in the body, just as he desired. If they were all one member, where would the body be? But now they are many members, but one body. The eye can’t tell the hand, ‘I have no need for you,’ or again the head to the feet, ‘I have no need for you.’ No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. Those parts of the body which we think to be less honorable, on those we bestow more abundant honor; and our unpresentable parts have more abundant propriety; whereas our presentable parts have no such need.
“But God composed the body together, giving more abundant honor to the inferior part, that there should be no division in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. When one member suffers, all the members suffer with it. When one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
“Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.”
As soon as one gift is elevated above the other gifts, it’s out of place from NT teaching. Elevate a gift AND pay money for that “gift”, goes totally off the charts of the NT church. Then along comes vice to complete the trifecta of power, profit, and predation. That is where we are today.
When these church conventions take place, law enforcement and criminals (selling sex and drugs) testify that criminal activity in that venue goes way up. Empowered and bankrolled, the attendees go looking for fun away from home. Similar to the Super Bowl event each year.
Jerome,
I just tweeted this and will try to put it into a post this week.
“God has designed the church to sit under the preaching of qualified male pastors.”
So many pastors treat their church as not much more than a captive audience in front of which they can talk and be admired.
““Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.”
Bingo.
Keeping women voiceless keeps them satisfied, obviously. No complaints.
Some random thoughts and what I think is an important point:
As to random thoughts, I believe in soul freedom, so if the majority of the people in the SBC want to ban women pastors they have every right to do so, and I support them. I just won’t attend one of their churches, since I also have soul freedom. Those that want them banned should be able to form groups that ban them, and those that want women preachers should be able to form groups that call them. And since the SBC can set its parameters for cooperation, they can ban churches that don’t ban women preachers, or ban churches that do.
Just as some Christians believe in sacraments and others in ordinances, this is something for the believer to sort out for themselves and then find a group that agrees with them.
Now to the important point: Jesus made it clear we are not to have ANYONE in spiritual authority over us except for the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So to be real down to the nubby nitty gritty, not only women but also men should not be given these titles they are fighting over. What they are really fighting over is not Biblical teaching on authority but rather protecting their monetary turf. They are just using gender this time instead of education level to reduce competition for the money. That is all it is. Protecting their jobs from competition.
So I suggest this: individual Christians should stop attending meetings where one person always speaks and is seen as being in authority. Those called to preach should preach. Doesn’t take a building, a pulpit, and a salary to preach. Preach by loving your neighbor, by teaching your kids, by offering Biblical advice when asked, by how you live, and if you have to bust out in a sermon take to a street corner. Jesus has paid your tithe in full, but if you still feel compelled to give money do it wisely to benefit people in need. Give it to a person, or stack enough back to offer the dignity of work to the person. Approach the throne boldly for yourself, and quit trying to outsource that job.
In short, live in the freedom we have in Christ. The curse is lifted for believers. These men who fight to keep you in bondage feel free to earn their living under air conditioning and without a hoe to fight the thorns and thistles.
The easiest and faster way to end their as Bro Wade calls it “Fraudulent Authority” is to simply and quickly walk out from under it.
You forgot “Pastor of MY Penis”.
Remember the theoretical Ultimate End State of Protestantism:
MILLIONS of One True Churches, each with only ONE Member, each denouncing all the others as SATANIC Counterfeits, Heretics, and Apostates.
With heads properly and winsomely bowed and their Handmaid’s Bonnet tightly and Godly cinched.
“O COME LET THEM ADORE ME,
O COME LET THEM ADORE ME,
O COME LET THEM ADORE MEEEEEEEEE,
ME! ME! MEEEEEEEE!”
“ABRACADABRA” = “I SPEAK AND IT! IS! SO!”
WAR IS PEACE!
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY!
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH!
Headless Unicorn Guy,
You keep writing that but I think you are hundreds of years behind the curve.
The real reality is all the dudebros in lockstep about how all the pew goers are satanic counterfeits and aren’t allowed to mix at discretion or know meanings or pray.
That’s what Carson / Keller’s “The Coalition” is about.
Philip B. Payne’s new book, The Bible vs Biblical Womanhood (Zondervan, 2023), provides an alternate reading of the texts which some read to prohibit women in pastoral ministry. He is an inerrantist, former complementarian, and gifted professor and student of the Bible. It’s worth a read by anyone with an open mind on the subject.
Ava, you outline a critical truth for the Body of Christ, which few churches have appropriated over the centuries. When Jesus comes back, He will be looking for a church without spot or wrinkle … we are in desperate need for some washing and ironing!
The last thing NeoCal complementarian dudebros want is for their women to read the Bible! They want them to conform to ‘their’ interpretation of the Bible, not walk in Truth.
“Behold, your sin has found you out!” (Numbers 32:23)
Michael in UK,
“The war against boys is the same war as the war against women, as I saw when my classroom was invaded by prurient officialdom when I was 14 when the trendy vicars had stopped praying.
Why isn’t this idea coming from lady commenters – as well?”
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i just want to make sure i’m understanding.
is your point that christian leaders only allow certain gifts, talents, skills, and expertise to be exercised by people?
what else am i missing?
there’s a cultural communication gap, i’m afraid. my husband is from another country…. every day i ask him to “say it plain”.
If you the biographer of Henrietta Mears , she mentored to a lot men who became famous pastors and teachers. She ran a large Bible study in California that attracted men and women
Sandy Williams,
“provides an alternate reading of the texts”
+++++++++++++++++
if only ‘alternate’ meant openness to other viewpoints under the same roof.
clearly it’s not possible to both subjugate women and not subjugate women under the same roof.
but at least alternate means that complementarian and patriarchal people can quit being so hostile towards those who see things differently.
(about hostile – the only appropriate response to anyone or any institution that thinks, believes, or functions as if some people are less than fully human is hostility. but maybe we can be matter of fact about it.)
.
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having said all this…. can churches/groups who come to different conclusions on this subject get along and work together?
.
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i tried to work with groups that believed in the hierarchical male. it was difficult.
there weren’t any signs posted as to where the trip wires were.
i just did my thing freely, initiative & all. (i didn’t know any other way of doing it)
the men were clearly extremely uncomfortable. it was confusing – i was constantly wondering what i did wrong.
like, at a restaurant with a group, before going to another event, and in the interest of not being late to said event, I said,
“well, why don’t we go?”
utter silence. the world stopped turning for a few seconds. the women clutched their pearls and the men looked like they’d just been punched. (so to speak)
these things are weird but they’re not dealbreakers.
however, a hierarchical male not being able to resist the urge to turn his chair around with his back facing a female speaker or leaving the room in protest is a true-blue-stinker of a dealbreaker.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Why does “religion” and “ politics” always seem to sound the same……
Tina,
“Everyone believes they are right and can “prove” they’re right by Scripture. Our current sermon series is about being in the “wilderness”, and that previous sentence has been the “wilderness” I’ve wandered in for the last over 30 years. And I don’t think there’s a way out.”
++++++++++++++++++++++
my way out:
seeing “love your neighbor as yourself” as the ultimate way to “Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.”
cruelty to others by any degree is simply incompatible with this.
that is my theology.
does any christian (sober & critically-thinking or not) really think God’s going to say, “Sorry… it’s curtains. you didn’t cross two t’s and didn’t dot one i. and it’s 643 angels that can dance on the head of a pin, not 642.”
You sound a bit like my pastor, and I mean that as a compliment.
Jeffrey Chalmers,
Lerone Martin’s recent book explains.
There isn’t a church leader alive today who has greater authority to instruct the church and how its leadership should look than the Apostle Paul (1 Timothy), yet many act like they have an even greater revelation and understanding. That right there is your slippery slope.
On the other hand, that might be the truest church of all. Each soul in direct contact with the Almighty.
Rather than an insult as it was first said, I would take it as a compliment.
Syron,
The only disagreement is in how, in good faith, one interprets what Paul is saying.
Tina,
Yes! The situation defies articulacy. They are vetoing all gifts in everybody at all times whether on their premises or not, whether in their field of view or earshot or not.
“Let” them organise their church organisations as they dare. If it is semi functioning or less, let it semi function or less.
Inside your head, inside your home, inside your life, inside your prayers (anyone remember those), or between you and your grandchildren or your friends’ children, they have NO WRIT. WHATEVER. ZILCH.
Your Holy Scriptures message from your God to you, with His and your meanings. Church authorities long claimed to abolish meanings. The real God has not abolished your right to meaning.
I Tim: the original has “usurp”.
In addition I think the sole woman referred to had been an “exotic initiator” until recently before writing.
Ones with big bad hair – they had big bad hair. Ones that were raising basic questions, their husbands wouldn’t speak to them at home.
You haven’t been told what “kingdom of heaven” means (though I try).
All letters were read by many parties on route, to whom they were not addressed. Letter writing was private communication in public. We don’t have the rest of the correspondence.
References to Roman attitudes were conversational reference points not legislation.
Another thing: the Bible was not given in a language of the kind Arabic was regarded. Pre-islam was a very unique and very strict and cut-down sort of culture altogether. Standard Judaism of the time of Jesus and Paul was far looser and diverse. Mostly, language was assumed to carry meanings, though pharisees / sophists / jobsworths / goons aplenty were exerting effort the other way.
Bad “pragmatism” and materialism of the Falwell Senior sort (good to see him criticised the other day) have affected christians’ ability to read Scripture.
The god that is dead is the god of Bismarck which is why the theodudes with their Kulturkampf and no true communion “have fallen alseep”, are dead on their feet, etc.
Am saying Glory Be’s for you. The world’s system outside the churches isn’t bright either. Circumstances may change even for non-singles or non-Ukrainians.
Tim Gloege and Lerone Martin showed that dishonest mechanising of ecumenism (that excludes the little people) led to an already inadequate minimum (distorted and truncated misnamed “soteriology”) becoming the enforced maximum through the efforts of Edgar Hoover and media mouthpiece Carl Henry.
In 1946 a pope overburdened America’s Manifest Destiny with duty of care for the world. John Stott spearheaded snootiness against ordinary C of E attenders and nonconformists alike, which has devasted all those denominations PLUS those founded in reaction against them.
False “evangelising” as REPLACEMENT OF prayer undermined respect for the youth and for intelligent human beings altogether: in all walks there now must be a button pushing system only. I don’t push your buttons because I don’t push your buttons. In God’s rule book He may make us a bit diverse because diversity used to be safe for everybody. Those who recently locked up heavens like brass are blocking His benefits.
“Evangelical” = no gospel left because no belief in providence, only fatalism. God’s and good angels’ intervention is non-stop and is relative in every case. Cessationism = no Jesus at all; “the most miserable of creatures”.
If they’re both operating graft, grift, and goons, then it’s the same game. It happens.
Solution? Stop donating your time, money, and integrity as fair game to the grifters, the goons, and the graft.
Excellent points all.
Israel had God-direct but they begged for a monarchy middleman. Some folks just demand to be led around by a ring in their nose.
Best: “Stand firm therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and don’t be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.” Galatians 5.1 World English Bible, Public Domain
The real Gospel is God has set us free from all of the accoutrements, the grift, the graft, and the goons of “church”.
Syron,
I disagree. Jesus is the head his church and instructed his followers how to live their lives.
Wait. It’s fine to compile a list of churches with women pastors and release it publicly, because accountability and protecting the womenfolk. But releasing a list of credibly accused sexual abusers? Nah, we’ll wait until there are embarrassing national news stories and a mass outcry from within the ranks. Because autonomy of local congregations and we don’t want to get sued.
I’m aware the people responsible for the lady pastors blacklist are not acting directly on behalf of the SBC, so it’s not a direct parallel. But holy heck is this a ballsy move. I don’t get it. Do the folks behind this have their heads so far up there they don’t realize the irony, or do they know exactly how this looks and don’t care?
Wait. It’s fine to compile a list of churches with women pastors and release it publicly, because accountability and protecting the womenfolk. But releasing a list of credibly accused sexual abusers? Nah,
CMT,
You don’t understand. It’s more than fine; it’s an absolute necessity. Women who foolishly believe they should be treated as equal to men are the greatest, most demonic threat to the churches that has ever existed.
So, a few men give in to temptation and get a little rowdy with someone they shouldn’t from time to time ~~ at least they’re not out drinkin’ and dancin’. So, we shouldn’t raise too much of a fuss over it. Besides, those so-called “victims” need to take some responsibility for those men’s little mistakes, too!
********************************************
As a former SBCer, ~ and though I did not use the proper, graceful, Christianese wording in the above statements ~ I know that is really the way many of them think (some women, too). It makes me wonder how many more share that attitude, and are just better at hiding it.
There really are members of my denomination that believe instrumental music in a worship service is a one-way ticket to hell. One Church of Christ in my area disfellowshipped us because we began an instrumental worship service.
And I believe I mentioned in my OP that we’ve had a lot of people leave because we allowed women into full participation in leadership; and probably because my preacher does comment a lot about social justice. (I’ve been directly affected by two church splits and on the edges of two others. I’ve read where a believer can survive two, maybe three, church splits before they completely lose their faith.)
I also deal with a form of OCD that manifests itself in what’s called scrupulosity, which is an over-concern with all things religious. In my case, it’s the question, “But what if I’m wrong?” with every conclusion I come to, and the answer usually ends up with, “God will eternally punish me.”
Max,
True. I mean, I am more than happy to be the woman in the pew, no leadership whatsoever, who corrects and asks questions. Many, many questions. “Now it seems you have taken this verse out of context…..” I had questions for our Sunday School teacher last year. He went strictly by this one book. He asked me not to take class time with my “observations” but to email him. So I did. Have not heard from him since. Any of them heard of Aquila and (AND) Priscilla?
One Church of Christ in my area disfellowshipped us because we began an instrumental worship service.
Tina,
I have an aunt by marriage who is Church of Christ. My uncle converted when they married. When there was no pressing work on the farm, I would go spend 4-day weekends with them at a cabin on Kentucky Lake. We always attended church.
On one weekend, when I was 14, I ask my aunt why CoC did not have music. She said that they believe music is ungodly, or something if that sort.
Made no sense to me, so I came back with, “But, the Bible says that King David was a man after God’s own heart, and he played a harp. My aunt could only shrug her shoulders and smile…… no words.
Ever noticed how they closely resemble radical Muslims?
Muff Potter,
yeah…. i’ll underline radical, only because the best ‘christians’ i know are my muslim friends. the most straightforwardly honest, generous, kind, respectful, diligent human beings i’ve encountered.
so, i associate ‘radical’ with ‘fundamentalist’.
can’t imagine any human being would want to self-describe as a fundamentalist, yet that’s what is eating up my religion. as I see it.
and i’ll sum up my thoughts on the forgoing with change happens, woe to the rigid; People Over Principle & Don’t Miss The Sunset is a good T-shirt and bumper sticker.
————————
i’m a total sociology hobbyist, here, but after a quick google search and perusal of ‘fundamentalism’, it seems to be quite a complex & controversial subject.
the highlights from just now:
-a form of a religion, especially Islam or Protestant Christianity, that upholds belief in the strict, literal interpretation of scripture.
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-strict adherence to the basic principles of any subject or discipline.
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-an inherently political phenomenon; inherently totalitarian, insofar as it seeks to remake all aspects of society and government on religious principles.
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-Communal fundamentalism happens in less economically developed nations as a response to outside threats such as those outlined above.
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-Individualist fundamentalism is the type commonly found within developed nations and is a reaction to social changes within society itself, usually due to increasing diversity, multiculturalism, and modernity.
That’s when the menfolk especially those more in charge, know too little themselves. Put me down as an honoured “honorary woman” because I’ve now got the knack of asking “wrong” questions on purpose and watch the eyes, shoulders, etc with amusement.
elastigirl,
They all say that the word is the thing – as do all wrong “pragmatists”. That’s how I can tell which pretend or wouldbe escapers are really staying behind. People who prove how not Acts 29 they are, or less cruel than Jonathan Fletcher, by going TGC. How not Bethel Redding they are, by going New Apostolic. They aren’t interested how allusions intersect.
The reason they get away with it is that it is a “Minister” and not a “pastor” or “Elder” or “Bishop” (old King James). And I am not kidding. I have ben in these churches. One very prominent one I was in had a very prominent woman in leadership> She was articulate, kind, patient, caring, and loved by everyone. And guess who they would ask to pray in public meetings, her. Almost every time. People apprecaited her ministry. But she was not an “Elder” so they could do it.
Swallow a camel, strain a gnat.
That’s when the menfolk especially those more in charge, know too little themselves.
Michael in UK,
They have decided that it is much more godly and Christian to have incompetent men in charge than to allow a competent woman to have a voice, let alone be in charge of anything. Seen it; lived it; walked away from it.
I hope you consider being called an “honorary woman” a badge of honor.
You’ve hit the nail right on the head.
Hardcore Christianity is totalitarian.
In the Bible there is no such thing as The Rights of Man (Thomas Paine).
You (generic you) are at the whim and fancy of some potentate or another, up to and including the Big Kahuna in the sky.
So it’s only natural that many churches have governments ruled by an autocrat.
Many Christians find themselves in an exhausting tug-o’-war between the church dictatorships they gather under, and the free and open Democracies they live in outside of church.
To clarify, I called myself that uninvited, adding the epithet “honoured” at my own behest, because I question their not in degrees listening to children and men thinking different from them. Them also including women in senior positions too at most of the troubled churches I fled. They allowed good woman preachers. Several of them gave good sermons altogether. By their dynamics ye shall know them. I have been most worried about the quashing of all gifts and strange activities towards vulnerable congregations in remote places.
There are dominant personalities, often disguised in a “humble” manner like Rev Dever, with his round tables, or self effacing movers and shakers in wrong directions. Gifts are “encouraged” as long as results don’t accrue. What do they do to the boys and girls after the first hymn and before the coffee queue? Such churches seem happy places almost all the time. The background idea for mutual ministering both in and outside church is lacking: bits of ministering go on but they don’t know why. None of the churches I fled prayed much. I’m saying Glory Be’s for my present unlikely “reformed” candidates, because I unexpectedly encountered their human side.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
I’ve been a church-goer for almost 60 years. Large and Small Churches.
I find the smaller independents more equipped to pastor to the flock because there are less political priorities and temptations than with just sticking to preaching the gospel.
Everyone of us already sins to different degrees. Why soil The Word with temptations of grandeur or power or riches?
Happy Happy like North Korea?
Constantly and loudly reminding everyone how Happy Happy Happy they are?
Sounds like “Semantics, My Dear Wormwood”.
No kidding. But I personally think that part of the whole complementarian movement is just plain old fear. Men are afraid of women in places of power.
I’ve even heard some of them say that women should not be in leadership in political realms.
Oh my, Margaret Thatcher, you should not have been in leadership.
That is the slippery slope which New Calvinists are on. Of course, there is an ultimate authority alive today greater than Paul … His name is Jesus! Unfortunately, Jesus has almost no authority or influence in the American church, especially in NeoCal churches.
It’s as if the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) don’t exist in the Calvinista’s world. They largely camp out in the epistles of Paul. When I get the opportunity, I tell them this: If you read Paul first, you might miss Jesus. But if you read Jesus first, the writings of Paul come into perspective.
This is a “concept” that the New Calvinists just can’t get … a central Truth that is missing from their message. Paul, Calvin, and NeoCal icons (Piper, Mohler, etc.) get much more airtime than Jesus.
I think they – trying to copy Dennettism – think their sons are animals or machines and want to make them as useless as themselves.
1 – What religious leaders put their sons through, the world’s professions copy, instantaneously, because that’s how quick the spiritual world is.
Masculinity – toxic (by dominionist power). We no longer harangue you in the classroom because we are nice to “boys” in the classroom. Go home and think about it (and tell us when you arrive at the right answer). Bearing in mind there is no longer the possibility of being non-toxic (by dominionist power).
I wouldn’t impugn Fern Creek but the challenge is against Saddleback and the Keller tendency, Russell Moore and other nice people including in the UK, to abandon ESS and cessationism and stop being “the most wretched of creatures” (those without the benefits of Ascension).
Who can get through to God if they teach their “followers” unbelief?
This is why you and me now have to pray for the churches and church leaders of all kinds and for our countries, despite the fact that we weren’t taught to.
2 – Mike Law the legalist – a character from the card game “Happy Families”!
Paul without Jesus, the persecutor, who didn’t write the letters!
And do the southern baptists read the other apostles, the prophets and the psalms?
Before you trot this triteness out again, have you thought what this means to apparently establishing the nature of the Bible?
Are you treating the SBC as some fringe eccentrics from who the majority of the public expects no better?
For hundreds of millions there is objectively no christianity other than SBC / YRR / TGC / dominionist / cessationist (including charismatics and New Apostolic) / materialist moralisers / Manifest Destiny INCLUDING those that are nice to women . . .
You sometimes sound like the irrelevant fringe yourself.
People like you and I should be launching a completely new phenomenon as example to agnostics of goodwill to do without baggage that’s not good for people around them. Glory Be’s said!
I’ve lived on planet earth and in the American church long enough to identify with that remark.
Before the New Calvinists gained control of the SBC steering wheel, yes.
It’s a ‘movement’ alright, and it stinks to high heaven.
Because the Rigid cannot bend or change.
Only resist the stress until it goes over their limit.
At which point, everything fails CATASTROPHICALLY.
As catastrophically as HMS Hood when Bismarck’s shell penetrated and detonated amid Hood’s aft ammunition magazines.
You might be onto something.
643 is a prime number, 642 is not.
Max,
I’ve started to wonder what’s the actual fringe and what isn’t.
There has always been the Church within the church. Searching for the genuine in a vast sea of counterfeit can be difficult, but I believe you’ll find it on the edge of Christianity rather than in the center where most folks hang out.
Max,
I was in the church within the church (every time I left one and joined one; I’ve got bad radar). We were so eccentric, we were the epicentre !!!!!
Possessive religion steals the bodies of adherents and agnostics alike (bad effect on culture).
There is no grace without providence and there is no grace without prayer.
I’ve been a Christian for the better part of a century. I’ve never witnessed the current level of prayerlessness in the American church. I suppose (and hope) that individual prayer is taking place outside of church, but corporate prayer within church is almost non-existent in my neck of the woods. No prayer, no grace … no prayer, no power. The enemy (in various forms) walks in unhindered.
Besides individual, you also need JOINT OR COMMON prayer of two kinds:
– bunches of pals and relatives (growing up at home, we did NOT pray together)
– bunches of church hangers on under more or less church auspices.
These should be free style and / or Scripture and Office based.
Corporate means (usually) selective formal utterances. To my mind those not based on an Office are less helpful (and you should critique the odd piece of axe grinding that gets slipped in anyway).
Thus four levels are needed.
Some christians (singles, or spouses of management groupies) haven’t seen or heard prayer done for tens of years.
What happened to “egg each other on to good works” given the main work of christians is to pray?
Some christians (management groupies) think Jesus and Holy Spirit are high handed, possessive and improvident and that praying isn’t God’s Swill.
I can’t understand why apparently so few in your country call themselves agnostics. Effectively, I’m my own unique kind of cafeteria agnostic myself.