This global view of Jupiter’s moon, Io, was obtained during the tenth orbit of Jupiter by NASA’s Galileo spacecraft. Io, which is slightly larger than Earth’s moon, is the most volcanically active body in the solar system. In this enhanced color composite, deposits of sulfur dioxide frost appear in white and grey hues while yellowish and brownish hues are probably due to other sulfurous materials. Bright red materials, such as the prominent ring surrounding Pele, and “black” spots with low brightness mark areas of recent volcanic activity NASA
“Spirituality can go hand-in-hand with ruthless single-mindedness when the individual is convinced his cause is just” ―
SBC to outlaw women pastors: the Calvinists have won.
I had lunch with a friend yesterday. We discussed several issues within the SBC, including the unexpected vote to outlaw women pastors in the SBC. Believe it or not, Mike Law’s proposed amendment was hugely successful. I wrote about this in Mike Law Says His Amendment Banning Women Pastors in the SBC Will Prevent the Oppression of Women and Children. The SBC Executive Committee Will Allow Messengers to Vote on It. Many in the Executive Committee advocated voting against this proposal. Given the overwhelming approval to extend the right boot of fellowship to Saddleback et al., this should not come as a surprise.
I was not expecting this to pass and had hoped it would go to a committee to “study it.” I was wrong. I quickly educated myself on the process. This vote will need to be confirmed at the SBC Convention next year. If it passes, it will become the law of SBC land. The Roys Report presented Southern Baptists Start Process to Name Only Men As Pastors.
I read the following and imagined the bloodletting that will begin if this passes next year, and unless something unexpected happens, I think it will.
Law, pastor of Arlington Baptist Church, has compiled a list of 170 women serving in pastoral roles. Fewer than a third are senior pastors. The remainder include associate pastors and children’s pastors.
Who will be the Tomás de Torquemada of the SBC, visiting all 170 women and turning them over to Satan? I wonder if the SBC folks have taken this to its logical conclusion. Imagine if the SBC insists on all 170 women being stripped of their ordination. Mike Law will find more women pastors and be tasked to visit each church, turning over every pew and looking for hidden female pastors.
This whole thing is so sad and didn’t have to be handled this way. Cooler heads could have prevailed and come up with a compromise, grandfathering (or grandmothering?) in the churches with female pastors. But they can’t. After rudely kicking out Saddleback, Fern Creek, and others, the precedent is set. If they don’t boot all the churches with women pastors, they will have a revolt. However, I believe these new rules are being propagated by the Calvinists, who have essentially taken over the SBC. I have talked with some pastors outside of the SBC who cannot understand why this was not a part of the constitution of the SBC since it was founded. I have answered that the current crop of Calvinista theodudes that have insisted on these changes. And they have been successful.
However, I predict it will be harder and harder for the SBC to claim their churches are autonomous. As the list of “dos and don’ts” grows, so does the possibility of a successful lawsuit against the SBC as an entity. For example, instead of just suing the local 30th Baptist Church over abuse, the lawyers will add the SBC and maybe one of its entities, like the NAMB, to the list of defendants. I have a friend who is a lawyer who follows the SBC, and he disagrees with me. But the last time we talked was a couple of years ago. I stand by my prediction.
My longtime Baptist friend says she believes the SBC is headed for a split, ala the Methodists. I am beginning to think she is right.
Question for discussion: Al Mohler looked tired and old at the meeting. I think he will be offered a sinecure. There’s a bunch of these in the SBC. Who will be his successor? I guarantee they are jockeying for the position as we speak. For example, could it be Mark Dever or Denny Burke?
The SBC Sex Abuse Task Force presents a “prototype” database.
First, let’s all applaud Jules Woodson, Tiffany Thigpen, and others who attended the Convention. They are working hard to move the behemoth, which is the SBC. I was rather sad that the task force could not have a database with real names on it up and running by the time of the convention. Granted, there were roadblocks. Guidepost Solutions was going to get one going but was removed due to an LGBTQ-supportive tweet. What did they think they were getting with a non-religious company? Plopping Samatha Kilpatrick in an unoccupied office and calling it “Faith-Based Solutions” was rather ill-conceived..
Christa Brown wrote an excellent piece for Baptist News Global. SBC annual meeting reveals little progress on sexual abuse, not even ‘bare minimum.’ Here is her take.
However, although it arrived with much hoopla, what was actually unveiled at the meeting was just a prototype of a database with “dummy names,” as Task Force Chair Marshall Blalock described them in his address to the messengers.
Despite the passage of an entire year, not a single abusive pastor was listed in the database. Not one.
This is not meaningful progress.
The problem never has been how to build a website — you could hire a teenager to do that. The problem has been how to populate that site with the names of credibly accused pastors — something that the SBC has still not done at all.
Furthermore, the SBC’s prototype database is currently set up to eventually list only those who have already “been convicted, confessed or found liable in civil court.” Thus, by design, it will include only the easy and obvious ones.
The task force has stalled out on what it’s calling “category four” names — those pastors who have been determined to be “credibly accused” by an independent investigation.
Even though messengers to the 2022 convention voted overwhelmingly to authorize the inclusion of “category four” names, the task force has now determined this category “requires further study and consideration.”
For example, Johnny Hunt was credibly accused. He now claims it was a consensual event and is suing everyone he can think of in the SBC and Guidepost Solutions. His name could not be added to the database since he was only “credibly accused.” He did not confess. There have been no lawsuits or civil judgments. This is where the rubber meets the road. I guess that the bulk of sex abuse fits under the category of “credibly accused.” These abusers are then free to move from church to church.
Robert Downen, lead reporter on the Houston Chronicle’s 2019 Abuse of Faith exposé, saidthat, without “category four” in the database, “really all that does is put the SBC right where they were when we started investigating them six years ago. … It does very little to move the needle.”
But the SBC wants to protect billion-plus dollars of assets. Here is what abuse advocates are up against. In 2022, Church Leaders posted SBC Executive Committee Member Joe Knott ‘Terrified’ To Implement Policies To ‘Protect Children or Women.’
EC member Joe Knott expressed that he is “terrified” at the thought of the SBC implementing policies “to protect children or women,” policies he believes will open the SBC up to class action lawsuits that pose an existential threat to the denomination.
Knott is a lawyer who lives in Raleigh, NC, and has served as a lay leader in his church for more than 30 years. He is also on the steering council for the Conservative Baptist Network, an association of Southern Baptist leaders who believe that the SBC is drifting away from conservative Christian values and desire to “turn the SBC back to the Bible.”
I said some of this above.
“And everything that we’re talking about today with the Taskforce and implementing policies to ensure this and that—I am terrified that we are breaching our longstanding position of being a voluntary association of independent churches,” Knott continued. “When we start telling churches that they should do this or do that to protect children or women, and it turns out—which it will—that women and children are still going to be victimized, then someone is going to say, ‘You did not do enough.’”
Indicating that his main point of concern was legal exposure, Knott explained, “And when they say that, that is a question of fact, which could support a lawsuit. And not just one lawsuit by one victim but by thousands of victims, if we have not done enough.”
… I guarantee you women and children are going to be victimized no matter how much we spend,” Knott said. “And that is going to make us, potentially, targets of great class action lawsuits, which could be the end of the Southern Baptist Convention.”
Quick question: Does anyone know what is happening at Christ Baptist Church in Raleigh-Joe Knott’s church? Elders are gone. Members have fled. Pastor positions seem available.
Some difficult days are ahead for the Sex Abuse Implementation Task Force, and I can only wish them well.
“SBC to outlaw women pastors: the Calvinists have won”
I could add:
SBC’s theological default is now reformed theology: the Calvinists have won
SBC’s congregational governance has been replaced by elder-rule: the Calvinists have won
SBC’s outreach to ALL people is now focused on the predestined elect: the Calvinists have won
SBC’s evangelistic message around the world that whosoever-will-may-come has been silenced: the Calvinists have won
Women have been outlawed as pastors because of SBC’s trend toward Calvinism, pure and simple. The new reformers’ spin on Scripture will not allow it. It continues to amaze me that Southern Baptists (the majority are non-Calvinist in belief and practice) continue to ignore the “C” in the room.
“Some difficult days are ahead for the Sex Abuse Implementation Task Force”
IMO, the victims list has now grown by 170 = SBC women pastors now feeling abused. IMO, it is a form of abuse to hinder someone from fulfilling their call by God to pastor/preach because of their sex.
Well, they’ve outlawed women pastors. So they don’t need the SAITF anymore.
There, fixed it. Right, Mike Law?
So why didn’t they dissolve the SAITF?
Priorities.
It really pays to get your priorities right. /s
I really think Lysistrata should be the role model for women in the SBC at this moment in time.
😉
First they “only” came for the women and “only” in church.
Taliban, Khmer Rouge, SBC and their many UK lookalikes want to take education away from everybody.
And the women forgot to stand up for everybody else.
IMO baptist boys have got to rebel.
You tube contains a lot of videos by underage boys glorifying breakins and stalking. This is Weber’s “protestant work ethic”.
I estimate there is 0 % prayer at SBC churches and among SBC hangers on (or any other denomination).
What do they think of the fact that “friendly cooperation” = commitment to BF&M 2025 blank cheque. No doubt that is alright in Saddleback’s and RM Warren’s eyes for example.
Thinking about the comments on the last post about whether people are attracted to a church by love or law…
I think a lot of people are finding the world a very scary place at present and one of the ways people try to deal with that is holding on to the ‘law’. Exactly the same as people coping by trying to control.
These people would all undoubtedly be attracted by rigid laws and would have no understanding that this rigidity leads to people going into denial and fibbing.
I have no statistics for this but my gut feeling would be that any church with rigid laws about sex will attract people who can’t cope with their own sexuality and want black and white laws because they think this will help. I would also theorise that their inability to cope with their own sexuality would lead to an increase in incidents of abuse, assault, etc, in these churches.
TL:DR Legal rigidity attracts unhappy people with problems and causes incidents.
Gus,
Ok, I admit that I had to look that one up, but that’s a good one, Gus 🙂
SBC powers played an artful shell game this year, as usual it was played at the expense of women. In order to turn attention away from the abuse issues that took center stage in 2021, they turned to the burning critical theological issue of women pastors. So, Once again, women have been USED by the power brokers to consolidate their power. This has been the strategy of those who lust for power since the beginning. If you notice, their cry of biblical inerrancy is mainly focused, selectively, on what Paul had to say about women, not much else.
To the best of my knowledge, ELS, WELS, and for sure the LCMS outlaw women pastors. Does that mean the Calvinists won? Of course not. And long before the Calvinist takeover of the SBC women pastors were outlawed there. Lottie Moon and Annie Armstrong were not SBC pastors. And while there were women preachers, it was rare and generally frowned upon. So this isn’t something new.
What is a bit unique about the SBC among denominations is the fact that there is no top tier giving orders. Lots of men wanting to do that job, but none that have gotten the billing and power of a pope. For the most part it is still majority rule. So one must assume the majority are on board with the current stances of the various committees and officers.
So that being said, if the majority of the people in the SBC want to ban women pastors, it is their right and their business. LCMS does the same thing, so if we in that synod find fault with SBC on this, we should be leaving the LCMS, right? Otherwise are we being hypocritical?
Some will say folks will leave the SBC if they don’t deal with their misogyny. Or continue to focus on sexual sins. Or deal with their racism. Maybe. But the UCC, ELCA, UMC, etc have all pretty much moved in the opposite direction of the SBC, and are dying themselves, bleeding out membership for several decades now. Our own very conservative synod, the LCMS, has told its members to expect to continue to decline in membership.
My personal opinion is that all of us need to find the group that most closely aligns with our beliefs, and let others do the same. Or worship privately without the group setting. And if I am going to find flaws, let it be in my own group.
Exactly. With all the devils in America to fight, the SBC power mongers chose to beat up on their wimmenfolk again! Like bullies on the playground, they go after the weakest. If SBC’s female members want this game to end, they are going to have to declare “Enough is enough!” and pull their sorry husbands/boyfriends out of SBC churches by their ears.
Sure, I can see that. Law may attract them, but only love will keep them. When folks start looking for reality in Christ, they won’t find it in a rulebook. New Calvinism, by twisting jots and tittles of Scripture to support their theology, is one manifestation of the strong arm of the law feeding the need you note … but there’s very little love in it.
Indeed. I was a Southern Baptist for 70+ years. I once observed church members crowding prayer altars at the end of a service. They prayed for lost folks, healing, national concerns, revival, themselves. I was once a member of a Saturday night prayer group in an SBC church that went on for hours. Congregational prayer like that is nearly non-existent in SBC these days (one of the reasons I left). No prayer = no power … allowing the counterfeit to push the genuine out. “IF My people … THEN will I” ain’t happening in SBC life in 2023.
It’s a dangerous thing to take the attitude “Well, if Dr. Mohler says it ain’t right, it ain’t right” … “If Dr. Mohler wants us to go this direction, we all need to go” … “If Dr. Mohler says only his theology is Truth, then we better listen to him.” The Pied Piper took all the children into the great unknown, lemmings jump off cliffs following the crowd, kids accept drugs in candy on the street corner, etc. etc.
Southern Baptists, you better get your spiritual heads screwed on straight and ask the Lord what you should do before this stuff gets on your children and they can’t wash it off. Humble yourselves, pray, repent, seek God’s face … before it’s too late.
One wing doesn’t fly. Institutions that deny women – half the human race – their place at the table explicitly ground themselves. It’s physics. It’s dysfunctional.
Moreover, there’s the tech/media situation that addresses institutional dysfunction.
The printing press was central to the Protestant Reformation as it allowed for the dissemination of the Bible and teachings on a much larger scale than was previously possible. This upended the dysfunctional powers that be of the Church of that day.
Today, the internet will do the same regarding the truth about these types of dysfunctional structures (with their scandals and misinformation) that deny half the human race their agency in the Church. The internet allows for the dissemination of information of what is happening boots-on-the-ground to normal people in churches, regardless of the careful branding of those in power at the top. Women’s voices go out across the globe with no regard to these artificial rules about women teaching, preaching, and testifying.
God has created each person with dignity and agency. Deny that dignity and agency, and God is no longer present, which means the institution is in no way participating in the Body of Christ.
The New Testament, as well as the entire Bible, always behooves us to go where God is. Go with God. Vaya con Dios.
Some may hang around an institution simply for the accoutrements of the institution. But those seeking God will go with God.
There’s power in what these people running these institutions can do and God allows it. The religious elite of Jesus’ day leveraged their power to execute the Son of God; God allowed this. God answered, however, when Jesus rose from the grave.
And then God further allowed Judas to hang himself. God did not stand in his way. Likewise, institutions can sell their souls for shekels, and then hang themselves. God does not stand in their way.
The rest of the disciples moved on to establish the Church as the Body of Christ.
Max,
My opion Mohle’s theology is very thin. More akin to biblicism than deep theology. Not to say he is incapable of deep thinking,his success and longevity shows he is, but his agenda is best served by playing to his base which for the most part is not comprised of deep theological thinkers.
I think I commented on this thread, or was it some other one?
They don’t know it yet, but they (the SBC) are crafting their own doom.
As always dee, the space fotos are amazing.
They look like really good crafted sci-fi, but the kicker is that they’re real.
Even if the stores are all closed, you always get what you came for.
The young, restless and reformed require someone else to think for them (at least the ones I personally know in my area). They get up each morning, run to their computers, tune into Twitter and search for the latest Piper Point, Mohler Moment, Dever Drivel, etc. … then retweet to their dudebros. They borrow sermons from each other so they want have to dig through Scripture themselves … allowing them plenty of time to hang out with the bros and tweet their lives away at the local coffee shop. You sure won’t find them ministering to anyone, visiting the sick in hospitals, praying with folks in nursing homes, or otherwise pastoring.
Muff Potter,
Exactly. “Signed their own death warrant” is what came to mind when i 1st saw stories – as in, headline news on international newspaper sites (NYT, The Guardian, etc.).
There are definite parallels in the secular realm that are quite scary, TBH. This is a reflection of those things, albeit not nearly (how do i want to put this?) as cruel, in certain respects. It’s still cruel, no question, but in this case, it’s more hopeful than all of the things I’m thinking of. People and congregations can choose to oppose or leave. That’s far better than imposition by civil “authorities,” imo.
It was just a *very* stupid thing to have done, in this case. I have no doubt that the powers that be are already feeling the heat from members and clergy. The SBC outlived its raison d’etre a long time ago – after the emancipation of enslaved people. The irony shouldn’t be lost on any of them.
Jupiter’s Moon Io looks like really rotten cheese.
Really lovely symbolism.
Mohler can get anything approved at SBC national meetings; the NeoCal vote comes through for him. Although non-Calvinists still comprise the majority of SBC membership, those folks largely gave up on the national meetings sometime ago. In years past, attendance ran 20,000+ … this year’s meeting had around 12,000 voting delegates. From a look at the crowd, most were young, restless and reformed and devoted to Mohler.
It would help if you read what I wrote more closely. Surely you know that I understand your sentence. I stand by what I wrote. The SBC is different and did allow for women pastors, given that there have been some throughout its history. Who were the ones who took up this fight? See who they are, and you might change your mind.
Insightful. I’ve long felt that the rise of religious extremism around the world in every faith tradition is a reaction to the breakneck speed at which societies are changing. People everywhere dislike change.
Radical Islam. Radical Hinduism.
And Radical Christianity which focuses on political candidates and passing laws in order to control people. Which is exactly what Mr Law (what an ironic name) and his colleagues just resorted to at the SBC meeting.
The religious systems behind all these are very different, but the end goal is the same – to halt the changes wrought by modernization by forcing people to live by what the purists see as “traditional values”. In every country, in every system all you get is fighting and oppression
Then there’s Jesus. The guy that never spoke for, or against a political leader, who never advocated changing a law to control people, who called the Pharisees whitewashed tombs because they failed to cultivate an inner attitude of love toward God and people in their hearts.
Even Paul whom the calvinists love so much was clear: the letter (of the law) kills, but the spirit gives life.
I suspect you’re right John. The people who are attracted to the Calvinist Southern Baptist leadership (and to the Taliban, and the Hindu BJP) are people uncomfortable with themselves. Desperately looking for an external way to control what is so out of control in their hearts.
Out of control or just plain evil, entitled & employed by donors church leader:
https://lawandcrime.com/crime/former-christian-missionary-sentenced-for-sexual-abuse-and-incest-after-preschooler-contracts-gonorrhea/
Baptist evangelist and missionary Jordan Dee Andrew Webb was sentenced for sexual abuse and incest after both Webb and his preschooler female victim tested positive for gonorrhea. Webb is employed by Harvest Baptist Church and Bible College in Fort Dodge, Iowa.
Pastor Marvin Smith IV, Harvest Baptist Church’s current pastor, argued for bond during the trial by writing that Webb is a “great citizen,” and a “great man in the community,” who would not pose a flight risk. The state disputed that characterization by pointing out that the defendant was searching for how to obtain a second passport.
If the Fuehrer says so, Two plus Two Equals Five.”
— Reichsmarschall Hermann Goering
But certainly not a great man in the Kingdom of God … these preacher-pedophiles are going to find that out someday … a millstone is standing ready.
And then Mohler says you also have this going on:
“Where else are they gonna go? I mean, what options are there? If you’re a theologically minded, deeply convictional young evangelical, if you’re committed to the gospel and you want to see the nations rejoice in the name of Christ, if you want to see gospel-built and structured and committed churches, your theology is just gonna end up basically being Reformed, basically being something like this New Calvinism or you’re gonna have to invent some other label for what’s just gonna be the same thing. There just are not options out there. And that’s something that I think frustrates some people. But when I am asked about the New Calvinism, I will say just basically, where else are they gonna go? Who else is gonna answer the questions? Where else will they find the resources they need? And where else are they gonna connect? This is a generation that understands, they want to say the same thing Paul said. They want to stand with the Apostles. They want to stand with old, dead people. And they know they are going to have to if they are going to preach and teach the truth.”
There are no other options, Dr. Al said. And, he’s the final authority on truth … so you better trust and obey, there is no other way.
Nor is he a great man in the community, any community. Truly sickly evil.
But it seems his church leadership, even his very own senior pastor, doesn’t get it. All the way up the Baptist hierarchy they don’t get it. Apparently.
Harvest Baptist Church’s current pastor, argued for bond during the trial by writing that Webb is a “great citizen,” and a “great man in the community,”
Ava Aaronson,
Uh huh. Everybody know that ‘great citizens’ and ‘great men in the community’ commit incest and give preschoolers gonorrhea. Right?
Wrong. You will know them by their fruits. Both Webb and Pastor (cough, cough) Smith are really bad apples,
This has an enormous effect on a childhood. I write about this in “Legal Grounds”, a novel (available on Amazon) that describes the impact of “Christian” leaders violating children in the name of God. The child can find their way out of the impact of this evil on their young life, but it’s an incredible journey. Fortunately God is greater than the most dark evil. God is greater.
The fact that the Dodge Iowa Harvest Baptist Church Senior Pastor dismisses this deadly evil is telling. However, not surprising, considering the goings-on of the larger denoms in their leadership (most recently the SBC). Dismissing the violation of children by church leaders seems to be common denom practice among leaders, all up and down the hierarchies.
God never dismisses the violation of children, and certainly not by church leaders. Church participants need to beware of supporting monsters embedded among church leadership. Church leaders need to beware of God Who sees all and keeps account.
Indeed! You can’t defend the man because he sure could preach, he was active in the community, etc. Jesus won’t:
“In ‘that day’ many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we preach in your name, didn’t we cast out devils in your name, and do many great things in your name?’ Then I shall tell them plainly, ‘I have never known you. Go away from me, you have worked on the side of evil!’” (Matthew 7:22-23)
Yes, but…
Their immediate target does seem to be women in leadership and ultimately, so they say, because that obeys the authority of scripture and the “plain meaning” of it. And, as you say, they go after the weakest because they can.
However, in going after women they weren’t bashful about going after Rick Warren’s church, hardly the weakest. It’s the largest church in the SBC. And Rick Warren authored a couple of best-sellers in numbers that rival King James himself. Not exactly going after the weak in this case.
The 9-to-1 majorities are kinda spectacular, and there’s no turning that ship around. Al Mohler must have delivered one heck of a sermon, far more powerful than the two very persuasive articles by Rick Warren that I’ve read recently.
Max, you said in a different comment that
It could be that Dr. Mohler is speaking the word of God, but on the other hand the 9-to-1 following doesn’t add up either. “Which of the prophets have your forefathers not persecuted?” Stephen, in Acts chapter 7, tells the story of all of the prophets from Abraham down to Jesus. None of them got a 9-to-one vote.
But Al Mohler did. Interesting times ahead for the SBC.
[WARNING: possible political violation of TWW regs]
“In 2016, I declared: I am your voice. Today, I add: I am your warrior. I am your justice. And for those who have been wronged and betrayed: I am your retribution.”
Ava, I’m a glutton for punishment so I just ordered “Legal Grounds” from Amazon.
I’ve been to your website before, but this time kept getting an error message when I clicked on your link. And googling your name found some other strange stuff. But it was easy to find on Amazon. And I had gift card credit!
However, in going after women they weren’t bashful about going after Rick Warren’s church, hardly the weakest. It’s the largest church in the SBC. And Rick Warren authored a couple of best-sellers in numbers that rival King James himself. Not exactly going after the weak in this case.
Ted,
Saddleback ordained female pastors in May of 2021. Rick Warren retired in early June of 2022. The courageous, dedicated men in the SBC didn’t go after Saddleback until after Warren retired.
Unfortunately, that’s a fairly common sentiment. St Ignatius Loyola said, “What seems to me white, I will believe black if the hierarchical Church so defines.”
It was hypothetical, and a nod to the authority of the Roman Catholic Church (and not just to sola scriptura, during Luther’s little rebellion), but still…
Interesting point! Still, it was Rick Warren who went to bat, not the new pastor. You’d think his influence, even in retirement, would have won more votes.
Well, I hope it’s not punishment. The point of writing was to document what happens with errant theology, and how a child can find their way out.
Regarding the website, I’m making some changes so it will be back up soon. Yes, the book is on Amazon in the meantime.
Thanks for your interest. My passion is for children who are violated through no fault of their own, and in the name of God, to find out that there has been a bait and switch – the violator has nothing to do with God, but serves the other guy. And then, the child can find Who God really is, even if it takes a lifetime. It’s the ultimate journey – knowing Who God really is (and who the Body of Christ really is) and being in relationship with Him (and in safe relationships in the real Body of Christ. My follow-up book deals more with this).
LOL
Ava Aaronson,
I’ve had my eye on Legal Grounds for a while. I’ve read several books on child abuse / spousal abuse / spiritual abuse in the context of churches. Also have an old friend who is close to the end of his 15-year prison term for production of child pornography. He too was a model citizen, husband and father, taught bible classes, etc. Unfortunately, as a career he chose elementary education, and his female kindergarten students were too much of a temptation. His arrest back in 2010 did a real number on me, and started me to question, “What am I capable of?”
Wagering that the denom-boyz are counting on the new Saddleback leadership to come around and see it their denom-boy way. Just a guess. Timing. Power. And ultimately, $$$.
How the power, money, and culture trifecta works in these hierarchical (sometimes totalitarian) systems comes to light in the “Happy Shiny People” doc + afterglow.
A documentarian, “charity.rachelle” writes on her Instagram account:
“As the lines between my personal life and documentary work continue to disappear, I’m processing the release of the new docuseries ‘Shiny Happy People’ on Amazon.
“IBLP is the organization (cult) that the now-infamous Duggar family were poster children for, and also the group that my family and I were members of for a decade of my youth.
“During my time at IBLP, I would scrape together hundreds/week + plane ticket so I could go serve as a hotel maid or cook at one of the training centers. Sometimes my family and I could only afford to eat beans and potatoes for dinner while the Institute made us pay hundreds of dollars for various fees. Bill Gothard (the leader, in his 70s at the time) made inappropriate advances towards me when I was 17…”
The Duggar daughters have said, in the documentary, that they have never received even $1 for all of their television work for TLC, even after they were married adults. Jim-Bob controls ALL of the contracts and finances.
Keeping men in charge of power, money, and culture is simply keeping men in charge of power, money, and culture, no matter how that trickles down to what the voiceless voteless women and children experience under this power structure.
It’s not a fine line.
It’s a whole different culture and lifestyle, with a distinct wall of separation between the predatory monsters and those who heroically look out for and defend the innocent. Sometimes we get to see this play out in public; for example, Attorney Brad Edwards went after Epstein on behalf of victims whereas Attorney Alan Dershowitz allegedly was also an Epstein island predator. Big difference in character, lifestyle, demeanor, and even on screen.
We can’t always see the behind-the-scenes. A pillar in our community murdered his wife but staged it as a suicide. We were all shocked. We didn’t know he was having affairs (in the next town) and wanted out of the marriage without a divorce. We did know that he taught marriage classes to couples at church. Quite a masquerade.
Evidence is crucial. Victims are evidence. Behavioral science has come a long way.
In any case, I personally believe God is bigger than all of this, but it is neither wise nor moral to be ignorant or simplistic about what goes on and what to do about it.
Solzhenitsyn said, “The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being.”
And yet their forefathers swore up and down that chained-up black people as slaves was perfectly ‘Biblical’.
Bad apples rot and are good for nothing except the compost pile.
black people as slaves was perfectly ‘Biblical’.
Muff Potter,
The “curse of Ham” …….
the “curse of Eve”………
and they can’t see the parallels.
things are getting ugly weird / weird ugly, McCarthyism-like.
Ran across this tweet just now:
“I found out today that a dear friend who is on staff at her (my former) church. Not even in a teaching/ preaching role, But has “pastor” in her title — her name is on a list, along with many others including her home address. What is even happening??!”
https://twitter.com/cristipaton66/status/1670245623956750336
Apparently, the police have been called.
The same Plain Meaning of SCRIPTURE(TM) that says the Demon Locusts of Revelation are Plainly helicopter gunships with chemical-weapon “stingers” piloted by long-haired bearded Hippies?
That’s what The Plain Meaning of SCRIPTURE(TM) Plainly meant when I was in-counrty.
It’s called “doxxing”.
AKA “Let Bubba Do It. My hands are clean.”
You forgot “GODLY”.
1. There are the monsters, such as the Fort Dodge, Iowa Harvest Baptist Church & Bible College Evangelist & Missionary Webb that preyed on a preschooler, as well as his Pastor Smith who deems the predator a great man of the community.
2. There are heroic advocates who prosecute these predators.
3. The third group: But the majority don’t care – as Carter points out in his TED talk, and that is key to the horrific problem. https://www.ted.com/talks/jimmy_carter_why_i_believe_the_mistreatment_of_women_is_the_number_one_human_rights_abuse?language=en
At Harvest Baptist Church, that third group would be the donors employing and paying the salaries of the predator and his predator protector pastor.
For lead Pastor Smith at Harvest Baptist, apparently this is not his first rodeo in covering up and protecting sex offender pastors:
https://www.yourfortdodge.com/former-pastor-convicted-sex-offender-surfaces-at-local-church/
Saddleback doesn’t need SBC. SBC needs Saddleback. Over the years, Saddleback has given millions to SBC to support the denomination’s “Cooperative Program”, annual contributions from SBC’s 45,000+ churches which fund various SBC entities.
One of the largest churches in SBC, Saddleback is also one of the biggest givers to the denominational cash flow. This would be a big deal to boot them out based on pastor gender since the Word declares that the Body of Christ is not to make such distinctions: “In Christ’s family there can be no division into Jew and non-Jew, slave and free, male and female. Among us you are all equal. That is, we are all in a common relationship with Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:28 MSG). Anything less than that, is just a debate over jots and tittles of Scripture … Southern Baptists need to focus on preaching the Gospel, rather than debating about which believers are to preach it. Let the rocks cry out!
I saw Beth Allison Barr over there too, and clicking on a link to expand, there is more comment, including some from Beth Moore. Here is part of Barr’s comment:
https://twitter.com/bethallisonbarr/status/1670400341639135232
Perhaps proving that Al Mohler is more popular than Rick Warren among the young demographic of SBC. It would be interesting to know what percentage of the voting delegates were cast by young, restless and reformed Mohlerites. Of course, many traditional (non-Calvinist) Southern Baptists still think that a woman should just sit down and shut up, but not sure how many of them still go to national meetings to cast a vote.
From my knowledge, Warren was never a key figure in Mohler’s New Calvinist movement within SBC. I’m not sure the young reformers thought much about him, preferring to idolize Mohler, Dever, Piper, etc.
It could be that Gilbert & Sullivan had Mike Law in mind when they wrote “The Mikado,” a 19th-century comic opera. There is a character called “The Lord High Executioner.”
And the chorus goes, “Defer! Defer! to the Lord High Executioner!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH69RCIB0bk
Mike Law’s list is 219 pages, each page with info about a church with women pastors or elders. Names of the women are highlighted.
(“I’ve got a little list, I’ve got a little list…”)
Reminds me of the “Third Reich Most Wanted” hit list.
Ted,
a propos, for this Mike Law.
imagine, trying to make a name for yourself by so actively destroying others in the name of God.
What kind of desperate bottom feeder must he be to go to such lengths?
i looked at “Rare And Amusing Insults, vol. 3″….you know, just for fun.
Pestiferous snudge is irresistible.
Amazing, that capital Greek letters all run together on crumbling parchments could make Mike Law this possible.
That.
In a letter from Mike Law to the SBC Executive Committee, Law says,
Baptist New Global has an article by one of the women on the list. Stay tuned for more.
https://baptistnews.com/article/im-one-of-the-female-pastors-on-the-sbcs-hit-list/
And happy Fathers Day! And it was Mothers Day, two years ago, when Rick Warren ordained women and invited one to preach. That rascal.
Mr. Law will go far in Mohler’s Kingdom for carrying the sword on this campaign … he has achieved Dr. Al’s Inner Ring … but has sacrificed a role in the Kingdom of God, IMO. Mr. Law is an example of indoctrination reaching its intended purpose. Sad.
the Word declares that the Body of Christ is not to make such distinctions: “In Christ’s family there can be no division into Jew and non-Jew, slave and free, male and female. Among us you are all equal.
Max,
Separate but equal…….
……….The Word was the same when the SBC was founded because Southern Baptists vehemently disagreed with the Northern Baptists’ anti-slavery stance………. Americans of African descent were inferior, so they must obey whites.
……….The Word was the same when Southern Baptists gleefully supported and practiced racial segregation and Jim Crow laws for a century after the Civil War ……. Slavery was no longer legal, but Americans of African descent were still inferior, and had to be separate in society.
……….Thw Word is the same now, but they still practice “separate but equal” under a new name. superiority over women is the last bastion these men have to cling to to protect their smug pride and twisted sense of superiority and self-worth.
most who strive for the Inner Ring end up regretting it someday … Inner Rings usually require a compromise of some sort
Hmmm … I wonder if that was the underlying driver of Dodeka … to oppress somebody, anybody? Perhaps, Dodeka’s secret pledge was to once and for all silence women in church. Secret societies may be viewed as silly games, but some in the Inner Ring take them very seriously and dedicate their lives to the pledge.
It will not hold up much longer.
It can’t.
Just as slavery doomed itself in the American experience, so too will evangelical complementarianism.
Abraham Lincoln said about slavery ‘rights’: “You do not have the right to do wrong.” The same applies to complementarianism. You can cut the oppression with a knife when you walk into some complementarian patriarchal elder-rule churches. You can see it on the countenance of oppressed female believers; you can feel it in their silence. The beauty of complementarity is an ugly thing – it ain’t right to do wrong.
As long as it’s legal, it will never go away. If churches prefer to go legalistic and switch to male-only leadership, they can have it. Just not in my church.
First Baptist (ABC) did have a pretty good blend of egalitarian/complementarianism until recently, and although there had never been a female pastor, there was no rule against it. Women and men were on the diaconate and onthe church council. But, with the new by-laws, it’s eldership or get off the ship, and male only.
1st Timothy chapters 2 and 3 carry a lot of weight with this crowd. Strangely, a few of the most ardent supporters of the new by-laws were women.
But the amount of people who left, including some of the pillars and former deacons, should speak for something.
At this point, I’d probably feel more at ease in a Catholic church. Go figure. They at least have tradition on their side and don’t get weird about women up front.
“Whoever doesn’t receive you or hear your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.” Matthew 10.14. World English Bible, Public Domain.
Orgs will be orgs.
However there is more that follows the verse above:
“Most certainly I tell you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.” verse 15.
Oops – this is kind of a big deal, come the day.
There’s even more in verse 23 of the same chapter, Matthew 10:
“But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next, for most certainly I tell you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man has come.”
Matthew Ch. 20:
25. But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27. And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28. Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Rick Warren vs. Al Mohler at the SBC 2023 conference last week got a bit contentious:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZXn97eaP4w
Pagan princes.
Jesus died and rose and sits at the right hand of God to set us free. Yay! Nothing like exercising this freedom while moving on from the pagan prince empires, getting out of Dodge, and fast. Ahhh, breathing in the fresh air of freedom. If I worked for one of these pagan prince empires, I’d get another job fast. The women pastors and teachers have to move on. God bless them. May their next step be a promotion.
Ted,
I spoke in broad and general terms with regard to the evangelical populace at large.
Sure there’ll be small pockets of hold-outs pining for the good old days, but they won’t have the clout outside of their dwindling enclaves.
Protestant church history will pass them by, and that’s a good thing.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
Amen Nancy.
Jesus spoke ground-breaking and revolutionary ideas.
Never before in human history had these things been spoken.
Not to sure about that. I had friends who prayed to some statue of Mary. If they didn’t then all sorts of bad things would happen. According to the ceremony program, the last time folks didn’t pray at the statue hard enough, 9/11 happened.
So, yeah, “scary Mary”, nothing weird at all…
I agree that they won’t have the clout in the future. Southern Baptists are pointing to the decline in numbers of the “liberal” mainlines since 1990 (or earlier), but SBC membership during that period, after several years of gains, has begun to fall the fastest, falling precipitously in the past 10 years or so. And the votes this past week may force the hands of more churches to leave the SBC.
As for Protestant church history passing them by, I’m not so sure. I think this is the stuff church history is made of, and historians in coming decades will look to this movement and compare it with earlier, similar movements.
I think most of the people in my former church, including some of the proponents of this, weren’t/aren’t really aware of what’s going on. They’re following the stream and think this is normal. And it is, for church history. But it takes decades or longer to see patterns in perspective. And most of them don’t read The Wartburg Watch to get a heads-up on what’s happening.
I pulled a book out of the pile yesterday, George Marsden’s Fundamentalism and American Culture: the shaping of twentieth-century evangelicalism 1870-1925 Published in 1980. It’s a bit like reading The Wartburg Watch.
Jack,
Yeah, that is weird. I expected a comment or two in return.
But at least Mary is up front! 🙂
Good, short video, and this summarizes what it’s all about. I do understand where Al Mohler is coming from, saying that it’s about the integrity of scripture. It’s the same thing I was hearing 20 years ago from my Episcopalian friends, arguing about the ordination of a gay bishop. It was a scriptural problem for them too.
Side note: they had survived women’s ordination, even gay priests, but a gay bishop was the last straw (the fact that the candidate in question, Gene Robinson, had previously left his wife and small children for someone else should have been disqualifying enough, even if the lover had been a woman. But that part was ignored. Because the lover was a man, this electrified the matter and people chose up sides). But that’s another discussion.
Or any other sources of what is going on in Christendom. The majority of SBC members are willing to live with whatever comes down as long as you don’t mess with their potluck dinner … if you remove those from the calendar, you will have a war on your hands! The pew doesn’t have a clue in most SBC churches. Most are not concerned about Al Mohler or his NeoCal movement taking over SBC!! Just give me chicken, fun and fellowship and leave me alone. Prayerless and powerless they are.
MIke Law is also getting famous over at Wondering Eagle.
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2023/06/18/arlington-baptists-mike-laws-coming-inquisition-of-women-plus-who-are-the-heathen/
Here’s a little something that stood out to me:
GUBA uncontaminated by Heathen, Witnessing, and Being Persecuted at age 8 – A THREEFER!
Jack:
WHEN CATHOLICS FLAKE OUT, IT’S USUALLY SOMETHING WEIRD REGARDING MARY.
I’ll have to give it a read.
If I’m not mistaken, fundamentalist evangelicalism is as much an American creation as is silly putty.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
When I read verses like that, I always substitute “Goyim” for “Gentiles”.
Like some Rabbi warning “For these are the things which the Goyim do!”
But no it isn’t!
Not to mention the countenances of oppressed male believers.
Just like what goes under the euphemism “economics”, I don’t think you should reckon on this.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Hand washing without the hand wringing? That’s bare faced.
There will be an objective reckoning for taking those in vain.
Oh you mean “delivered” ones!
Hey, I thought Southern Baptists didn’t have a pope! Much less a pope who possesses the charism of infallibility every time he opens his mouth. 😉
Also ABC. When the discussion was starting at First Baptist about changing to elder rule (they did not like to hear it called “rule”) I mentioned that very thing in different words–that most people don’t care about theology or church politics, all they want to know is “will it still start at 10:30 and get done by noon?” One of the proponents of eldership, now an elder himself, laughed and agreed.
Ted,
Do any of the men in power really care as long as the pew peons keep putting cash and checks in the plates…… or donate online?
You know, I don’t think that was the case so much at First Baptist. It’s a small church in a small town, and the former pastor wanted to “fix” things before he retired. There was one other, who became his bulldog, who pushed things too much, and that guy I think is a bit enamored of power. I knew him back when he was 25 and worked for me. At age 50 he hadn’t matured much. FBC has lost revenue over this, with the immediate effect of people leaving, then covid, but I think the proponents of the new order really are zealots for it. Also, they’re still old friends of mine, so I try not to think the worst.
Incidentally, my bulldog friend was the first to leave, to quit the diaconate and pull his family out. The initial vote for a change in by-laws failed for lack of a 2/3 vote, and he essentially wrote a letter calling FBC apostate (not in those words) and left for a 9Marks church.
My former pastor was also a good friend, and I like to describe him as “a great pastor for 25 years.” Problem was, he stayed for 28. In any profession, people really should know when to retire before somebody gets hurt.
A CHRISTIAN(TM), of course.
You have to do what you have to do to enter the Inner Ring … he is sitting at the right hand of Mohler now … Law, the Hatchet Man
Whew! This Law feller ain’t holdin’ back no punches! He can certainly paint a picture with words … even if it is the wrong picture.
Max,
they’re going to look so dumb when they have no choice but to play a semantics shell game by pretending pastoring is different from ministering, and seeing how many flowery, manipulative ways they can come up with to say it.
A good piece on the PBS NewsHour about SBC’s decision to oust churches with female pastors. Fern Creek’s Rev. Linda Barnes Popham gracefully addresses the mess:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8lV2CGp3uo
I thought about including his previous paragraph for better context, where he mentions soil twice. I suppose he was referencing the various soils in Jesus’ parable.
I wouldn’t call SBC “good soil” in its current condition … more fussing over jots and tittles than preaching the Gospel.
Thanks for the link. Rev. Linda Barnes Popham makes good points, in that Fern Creek has partnered with the SBC, for example, on the mission field. God bless PBS for producing this segment.
We served with SBC missionaries on the mission field, back in the day. Exactly as she said, it can be family working together for Jesus.
However, thinking back to the mission field (boarding schools, quirky missionaries in remote areas working with youth, etc.) and what is coming out now with #churchtoo, there may be lawsuits coming, possibly big time with the SBC.
Churches and pastors with integrity but expelled by the SBC should get on their knees and thank God. Move on with peace, eyes on Jesus, no looking back. It may be that there are deadly things hidden which some day may come out. Expelled by the SBC at this point may be God’s deliverance from a firestorm.
Typical Wartburger, to her husband: You can preach and I can’t!
Typical Wartburger’s husband (who wouldn’t dream of it): Yes dear.
Me: Look out for BF&M 2025.
My wife and I were shunned by the pastor and some members of an SBC church when we voluntarily left, after it became apparent that its leaders were stealth Calvinistas. We essentially had Scripture used against us: “They went out from us because they were not a part of us.” To which we shouted “Amen! You got that right!” That was our last SBC adventure, after being Southern Baptists for most of our lives.
As a humorous side note to the above experience, I bumped into an associate pastor of the church as I rounded the corner in a Walmart isle. He awkwardly asked me if I knew where the Christmas-shaped pretzels were. I replied “Do you mean the ones that look like Mark Driscoll?” He attempted a laugh and silently walked away. I’m sorry, but I couldn’t resist the opportunity.
Michael in UK,
yeah… i don’t get it.
🙂 🙂 🙂
elastigirl,
I know it ain’t gonna happen, but I daydream of the day that all SBC women go on strike and do absolutely NOTHING in or for the SBC churches and entities.
Wouldn’t that be the hand of providence!
No more delicious potluck dishes, no more scullery maids, and no cleanup for the fellowship hall.
Maybe them guys would start to smell the coffee.
And when they do, they need to drag their sorry husbands/boyfriends out of the mess. I don’t think much of men who oppress their wimmenfolk with the beauty of complementarity … it’s an ugly thing to use religion this way.
Ted,
Ted, he didn’t abandon his ex and their kids. He told her before they got married that he was more than likely gay.
It’s cruel for everyone involved in mixed-orientation marriages – for both spouses, and for the kids.
You know, “With my body I thee worship” *really* doesn’t work in these situations – only when one spouse is bi does it have any chance of working. His ex deserved a chance at a life with a spouse who is straight.
I’ve seen some of the horrible fallout caused by the ex-gay movement’s insistence that gay people marry straight people.
It’s far better for everyone that Robinson and his ex-wife split. I personally don’t think it disqualifies him from anything, including his years as a bishop.
He had so many threats on his life that he wore a bulletproof vest to his consecration. But the thing is, the threats never stopped.
Men of Robinson’s generation felt obligated to marry women – and i mean gay men. I think he and his ex handled it better than most.
Try and put yourself in the shoes of a person – a woman, specifically – who’s straight and married to a gay man. Then get back to me.
I know you pr9bably heard that he “abandoned” her. He didn’t. They threw in the towel after trying to make it work. It didn’t – b/c it couldn’t.
No harshness intended here, really. But this kind of reminds me of a comment thread on iMonk where i was trying to convince you of the inherent abusiveness of Jefferson’s “relationship” with his late wife’s enslaved half-sister, Sally Hemings.
Think it over, OK?
Ted,
I’m linking to a long piece, but buried in it is information about who chose to promote the “abandonment” scenario, and why.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/oct/31/gayrights.religion
numo,
Hi, Numo! Sorry, I’m just seeing this. And now I’m writing to re-construct what I just lost in cyberspace, so this will be shorter.
I don’t want to sound judgmental about Gene Robinson himself. I was speaking more to the double-standard of the Episcopal Church at the time.
Historically, if any priest divorced his wife (for whatever reason; for another woman, or even to remain celibate), that would preclude any career advancement. He may have remained a priest, but he would not advance to bishop. In Robinson’s case, he left for another man, not a woman; and because he was honest about his sexuality, that was applauded and he was promoted to bishop. It became a cause celebre, even a test case within the Episcopal Church, and here they are.
I’m not saying the Episcopal Church shouldn’t be able to have gay priests and bishops if they want to, as long as we have a First Amendment. I’m just calling out the double standard of that time that got them here. But if gay clergy are now part of the standard, so be it. People can choose to attend or not.
Same with the Southern Baptists. They have their own cause celebre, like it or not, and people don’t have to attend an SBC church if they don’t want to either. Both the Episcopal Church and the Southern Baptists will lose members, and will gain members, by their decisions. It’s too bad that both have invited division in the process.
My middle daughter is music director of a small Congregational church which is open and affirming, and its previous pastor was a gay man. I had only heard him preach at a funeral, but while visiting recently I have heard subsequent interim pastors (and finally, a permanent pastor, post-covid) preach some great sermons focused on Grace. I gotta say it is refreshing after hearing my old First Baptist get serious about the Depravity of Man and the Wrath of God (of course, the good news is Jesus Christ, but he comes after having been exhausted over sermons about the Wrath of God).
I remember the discussion about Jefferson and Sally Hemings. I don’t want to justify Jefferson’s actions (turns out Sally was only 14 to 16 while she was in Paris with him, watching the French Revolution get underway). Did their relationship get underway later, or while she was young? You’re saying it shouldn’t matter, that it’s an abuse of power and a sexual abuse either way. And you’re right. But without studying it (and I haven’t, really), it may not have been that simple. Martha was dead already, and if Jefferson and Sally Hemings thought they were “meant to be together” (as people often delude themselves into), marriage was not a possibility with a black woman. Her companionship as a slave was at least acceptable. This was hypocrisy, but at least a practical solution.
When we had that discussion, the term Systemic Racism wasn’t a thing, but there you have it, in the pages of history. I think I should defer to your (um, conservative) interpretation here because I’m over my head.
I hope to see you around on the blogs. Always a pleasure.
Sally Hemings had no say. She was literally chattel. Jefferson could do whatever he wanted to her, and no matter what happened – like repeated rape – she had no way to stop him or get help. She was still a child when he went after her, and from contemporary accounts, she was so light-skinned that she appeared to be white, and perhaps most damning, she looked almost exactly like her late half-sister, his deceased wife.
When the children were manumitted, most of them chose to pass. They married white spouses and the record ends there. One son fled to Wisconsin in order to try and escape relentless slave catchers. He identified as Black. One of his descendants was an officer in the Union military. He looks like he could have come from the Mediterranean coast – Portuguese, Moroccan, and many other potential nationalities. (There’s a photo of him in uniform, which I’ve seen.)
Let me be clear: white people who held enslaved people as property could and did do whatever they wanted to them, including killing them. Please stop and think (and read about) what so very many enslaved women endured. That includes the sale of their children, which happened all the time. There was no getting their families back – they never saw them again. The same was true of the sale of partners/spouses. (B/c even marriages conducted by clergy didn’t count when it came to the laws involving chattel slavery. The “property” owner’s rights were absolute.)
This song, written and performed by Rhiannon Giddens, explains it quite well – and her comments on where the title comes from say a lot. It’s called “At the Purchaser’s Option.”
https://youtu.be/DVrTf5yOW5s
In Robinson’s generation these were called “fishwives”.
Now they’re called “beards”.
Pretend to be straight to avoid reprisals, or try to prove to yourself “I’m Not Gay… I’m Not Gay… I’m Not Gay…” because it’s Taboo.
Ted, i know TEC is just a huge tangle of politics on many issues, like a snarled ball of yarn or fishing line, but there have been some priests who divorced, remarried, etc. in the 1960s who stayed in TEC as clergy. The late Robert Farrar Capon, who was a terrific writer and theologian (and gourmet cook) is one of them. He and his 1st wife had a large family, but they weren’t together for very long – i don’t know the circumstances. At any rate, he and his 2nd wife got married and were together for the rest of their lives. (I met them at a conference on the arts, back in 1993. He taught cooking classes there.)
I can’t pretend to know all the details regarding Gene Robinson, but i knew folks who were absolutely adamant about “no gay clergy,” and i *know* that accurate narratives and plain facts got so twisted (often quite deliberately) that it was almost impossible for outsiders like me to know what was true and what wasn’t. I was living in DC at that time, and i knew the head of an anti-gay clergy lobbying org. She was a lovely person, except for that one thing – on which she refused to give an inch. It’s so ironic, b/c there have always been gay people in the clergy, in monastic orders, in orders of nuns who weren’t cloistered (a relatively recent development) and those who were. People didn’t get kicked out for that, until it became a poitical point in this country and some others. (And gay men as priests isn’t the problem when it comes to the sexual abuse of kids, either – pedophiles assault children, not adults who are attracted to other adults, of any sexual orientation.)
I’ve encountered a whole lot of resentment toward Gene Robinson online, from members of TEC and people who probably wouldn’t be caught dead in an Episcopal church, for any reason. And these folks were by no means the worst, in part b/c they weren’t spreading lies about him or his 1st marriage.
There’s a lot that *should* have been talking points back then – very much including facts! – that got buried in the ugliness of the slurs and so-called debate. There were plenty of people who were decent about it, but the voices of those who weren’t were the ones that got the most air time, column inches, etc.
And the churches in the DC area that left TEC… well. One of them became a haven for top officials in W’s administration. It was a hugely political congregation – and one i had been thinking about attending, until i found out about the extremely close relationship between members and the then-current administration. It was also involved in a long, really nasty battle eith the diocese over ownership of church property.
I don’t think that anti-gay activism has any place in religion (not just Christianity – all religions), or in civic life, for that matter. Housing and employment discrimination are a painful reality for many LGBTQ+ folks, but saying the church and Christ himself aren’t accessible to people who aren’t straight?! That contradicts everything I’ve come to understand about Jesus Christ + what the church is supposed to be. Unfortunately, institutional churches have always been hugely political and internal politics have destroyed many.
I could say more, especially in regard to various “ex-gay” groups whoee goal was to change peoples’ sexual orientation, but 1) they no longer exist, b/c nobody’s orientation changed and 2) it’s a whole separate reply + could be a book, really. I’ll just say that i know people who’ve been put through horrible things by the denominations and congregations they belonged to, as well as by family and friends. It’s so extreme in some cases that The Handmaid’s Tale comes to mind.
People hurt others b/c of personal vendettas as well – that includes outing them. Some friends have been through that particular hell. It’s so hard for folks from highly conservative church backgrounds. So.very.hard. (An old friend of mine was outed recently, as a revenge move. It’s a mess.)
numo,
About ten years ago, I kept hearing about Millenials who thought “What’s Wrong with Slavery?” My informant was someone who crossed their paths at Furry parties and Furmeets. All of them tunnel-visioned about making “real furries” by genetic engineering and an owner’s Sexual Rights over his Animate Property. According to my informant, it was a very popular subject at that time and place and age cohort.
“Nobody does. I’m the wind, baby.”
— MST3K comeback line
Ted,
As a P.S., i just don’t want anything to do with the politics of TEC. The past several decades have been really harsh, for many reasons that have nothing to do with gay clergy. That’s just fuel to the fire. You can easily see it in other parts of the Anglican communion, like the Church of England. (As per an American womannwho was the presiding bishop of TEC being advised to not wear her miter into the opening session of one of the periodic Lambeth Conferences. The opener was all bishops, pretty much. And though i like Rowan Williams’ writing a lot, he’s the Archbishop of Canterbury who was all about not wearing the miter – not a good look!)
An Infallibility far greater than any Pope in Rome ever claimed.
(Except maybe the Pope who first proposed Absolute Papal Infallibility; to make a change like that required a full church council of all RCC bishops, at which he got shut down by all the other bishops. (as in “What are you using for Reality?”) The Papal Infallibility resulting from the council was actually restricted and limited in scope.)
Headless Unicorn Guy,
This!
There are so many misconceptions about the RCC. This is one of the biggest.* Note to folks i don’t know: I’m Protestant, but one of the hats i used tomwear is an art historian’s. There’s no way anyone studying Western European art history can avoid theology and church doctrines + politics. So yeah… dogma and doctrine are part of *all* the paintings and sculptures ever commissioned by the RCC, though if you go many centuries back, you’ll see that certain doctrines fell out of favor and/or was discarded entirely. Others filled the spaces where they’d been.)
numo,
No argument about the Jefferson/Sally Hemings controversy. I yield! You are right, and firmly so.
About the Episcopal tangle: my comment is still about the advancement in career of Gene Robinson, not that he remained a priest. Had his male partner been a female, it is doubtful that he would have advanced to bishop, and still would have remained a priest. It’s that double standard, and the cynical politics, that I find interesting.
About the slavery matter: an old family friend, Ashley Bryan, died nearly two years ago at age 98. He was African-American, an artist, storyteller, children’s author, veteran of the Normandy invasion, and a generally amazing and wonderful human being. I spoke at his memorial service last summer, one of the greatest honors of my life. One of the props for my speech was one of Ashley’s latest books, Freedom Over Me, woven from some bills of sale that he bought at an auction, the items for sale being eleven human beings, as well as cattle and other goods. Ashley gave the “items for sale” faces and stories. It’s a children’s book, but it’s not just for children. It’s quite possibly one of the books to be banned in Florida, and elsewhere if we’re not careful. You might want to get your copy soon.
https://www.amazon.com/Freedom-Over-Me-Brought-Illustrator/dp/1481456903/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3IYBXEN7ETJAE&keywords=ashley+bryan+freedom+over+me&qid=1687552969&sprefix=ashley+bryan+freedom+over+me%2Caps%2C871&sr=8-1
Ted,
Ted, i think that by the time he was selected to be a bishop, it was more of a moot point, per remarried clergy. Plus there’s the fact that he came out to his wife before they got married, and went through at least one form of “conversion therapy,” though the quotes around that phrase are b/c i don’t know what, exactly, he tried – a “psychological” approach, or via an ex-gay group + counseling from ex-gay folk, or…?
I’d say, frankly, that since he was honest with his ex-wife before hetting married, and b/c he genuinely did try to change, in certain senses, it wasn’t a valid marriage. But as I’ve said before, I’ve been around couples in mixed-orientation marriages (who were basically pushed into marriage by various ex-gay leaders) and the harm that does to both parties… especially to the straight wife. (In most cases, it was and still is a gay man and a straight woman.) Unless the man is bi, to some degree or other, it’s not gonna work – unless the woman is also gay/bi. I know of some folks from another religion who chose that route, as longtime singleness + no kids is really frowned upon where they come froml
Am willing to bet that there are still plenty of mixed-orientation marriages in the more conservative parts of this country. In Canada, it’s not been anything like as much of an issue as it is here, certain Xtian sects excepted.
Myself, although i realize that Robinson’s 1st marriage was to a woman, i think it likely that, had they been Catholic, they could have gotten an annulment in many dioceses (and not in others). But I’m glad they didn’t have to go through the ordeal of a marriage tribunal.
As for the more old-school people in TEC at the time of Robinson’s consecration, my hunch is that they’ve either left TEC or else the planet. It certainly wouldn’t be the only case of double standards, as you point out. But the thing is, Robinson’s ex-wife and his daughter were very supportive of his candidacy. That also counts – for a great deal, i think. (But YMMV, which is fine – it’s something that’s divisive by its nature.)
You know, i read two of Susan Howatch’s CofE novels and couldn’t believe the innate misogyny in them. (It was the 1st two books about clergy that she published.) Especially the acquisition of a wife as the key to advancement in the church, while cheating on that wife throughout the course of the marriage. Everyone knows, yet the cleric in question becomes a bishop and hires the woman he’s cheating with to work at the office of the bishopric.
I suspect that’s happened, and more than once. Howatch doesn’t really seem to have much sympathy for the wife in her book. It’s reserved for the bishop and the other woman. She never seems to point out how truly unloved the wife is, nor the hypocrisy of the bishop and his superiors.
While i realize it’s fiction, and taken from a certain POV, i found the 2nd clergy novel she wrote to be awful b/c of the very obvious misogyny and haven’t touched any of the other books in the series. Not sure why i finiehed either of them, to be honest!
Ted,
On another note, wow! Thank you for recommending your friend’s book + the link to it… i need to get a copy.
And i can understand why you feel as you do about being asked to speak at your friend’s funeral. I’d be the same, if called upon in a similar situation.
Ted,
Also, wow for all the books he wrote and illustrated! Sounds like he was a truly amazing person on all counts. What I’ve seen of his art – i really like it, and I’m not just saying that. The awards he won attest to his ability at many things.
Wish i could have met him.
Ted,
One last thought: i don’t mean to downplay the horrific effects of slavery on enslaved boys and men. Including rape and other kinds of assault/sexually abusive behavior. B/c it most definitely happened.
By the same token, i don’t want to overlook the emotions of the men and children who were sold away, per being separated from partners, family, mothers, etc.
It took a terrible toll on ever single individual who had to live in those conditions.
I think the late SF writer, Octavia Butler, captured a *lot* of what it was like in her novel, Kindred. It’s gripping. The psychology of it – of how a 20th c. woman learns to survive on a white ancestor’s plantation – is brilliantly done. It’s narrated in the 1st person, so the reader can’t escape the many questions about what he or she or they might have done if trapped in a similar situation. The ending is a relief. But iirc, i read it straight through. It was that compelling.
My two informants have both left; both are retired bishops, one of them 90 and a mentor of mine. He fought off the split for years, saying, “Once you go down the path of schism, there’s not end to it.” But in retirement he moved over to the Anglican Church of North America. The other is one of his proteges from seminary, now in his 70s, and became bishop of South Carolina when all of this was hitting the fan. He’s either the hero—or the villain—who pulled SC out of TEC. He’s since retired, and I mostly know him as the guy I climbed Mt Katahdin with, and who is an authority on Bob Dylan’s music.
Now you’re hurting my feelings. Susan Howatch is one of my three favorite authors, along with Ernest Hemingway and Chaim Potok (come to think of it, Hemingway was misogynist too).
Yeah, Susan Howatch’s first novel in the 6-novel Church of England series is a bit dark. The hidden sins, subterfuge, theological gyrations that the bishop had to do to juggle two women was astonishing. But in a later novel he shows up repentant. The second one—hmmm… the former monk who had visions, and had ignored his wife for his various careers including navy and church. Or you might be thinking of the third novel, priggish priest deludes himself with a young tart while his wife gets sick and dies. You wouldn’t like him either. My favorite is the fourth novel, Scandalous Risks, with the priggish priest now become Dean of the Cathedral (fictional Starbridge; modeled after Salisbury) and getting mixed up with the daughter of his best friend (and best friend of his daughter) while lamenting his marriage to the aforementioned tart, now an intolerably eccentric shrew. Tragic novel. But it’s her best. I’ve read it five times at least.
Incidentally, my 90-year-old bishop friend and his late wife were huge fans of Susan Howatch. He said that he and his clergy friends couldn’t wait for another to hit the stands. The clergy dirt that she wrote about was apparently quite realistic. He said, “It’s as if she’s been reading our mail!”
Ashley would have liked you too.
On our trip to Quebec a few weeks ago, Jeri and I stopped at the South Solon Meeting House here in Maine. In 1956 (the year I was born) Ashley and a number of other artists at the Skowhegan School of Art were commissioned to paint murals inside that tiny church. It’s a bit rustic, but something like a local Sistine Chapel, ceiling and all. Worth a visit next time you’re in Maine. Door’s unlocked, go on in.
This is Ashley’s mural on the curved wall in the back of the sanctuary. Painted in 1956, and similar in style to a painting that I have from the 1960s. His paintings got brighter in the late 70s, lots of dahlias and irises instead of flowing, dark trees. In this case, flowing robes on the people that Jesus is preaching to from the boat.
https://multifiles.pressherald.com/uploads/sites/4/2018/06/1406531_642060-solon.jpg
Ted,
Yeah, i think Howatch is definitely writing about *their* generation, not about anyone who’s clergy (or fairly far up in the hierarchy) today. It’s a different era and the standards are very different as well.
I did get tired of all the mentions of “monk’s madness” in that 2nd book, and at the time, i felt like the woman in question got a very raw deal, and i mean primarily from Howatch herself. But I’d have to reread it in order to address it properly, and I’m thinking that’s not a go.
I picked up both books on your recommendation, actually, via a Saturday Brunch post you made on iMonk. My guess is that your friendship with the gents you mention made the books far more compelling than was the case with me.
The funny thing is that I’d avoided all of Howatch’s novels for decades, b/c she was the queen of scandalous historical potboilers when i had my 1st bookstore job, back in the early 80s. Obviously, she took a lot of that approach into her novels about the C of E.
I do love Phil Rickman’s C of E thrillers (with a touch of the supernatural). They’re centered on a woman priest with a teen daughter. She’s the diocesan deliverance minister (really, an exorcist), but that’s a way to pull together folkore and culture from the Welsh border of England more than anything else. I’m not bothered by the deliverance ministry issues (I’ve been around it, albeit not in the C of E). Merrily, the priest, is someone I’d love to have as a parish priest. She’s sensible, but also sensitive. Some readers don’t like the daughter, but i haven’t felt that way. She does rebel over her mum’s occupation, but comes around in the end. Part of being a teenager, i think.
It’s really hard for many men to write well about female protagonists, but Phil Rickman does a fantastic job, i think. The 1st book in the series is a bit of a slog, but i binge-read all of his books, back to back (discounting the most recent 2) about 6 years ago. It was great fun, even when i disagreed with some of his central premises – and i do. But i love the central characters and really enjoy following them, through thick and thin. There are definitely politics in play, but as the series goes on, they become more subtle and more realistic.
I don’t like his white hat-black hat approach to paganism in the 1st couple of books, but that has changed. The pagans who show up in later books are human beings, not evil incarnate, although there definitely are some shady characters, in both the long and short run. It’s also, in some cases, connected to the English folk music scene – i really have enjoyed that aspect of his novels.
I don’t want to say much more, b/c it’s hard to avoid spoilers.
numo,
I will check out Phil Rickman. Thanks.
Susan Howatch’s Church of England series is modeled after Anthony Trollope’s 19th-century Barchester Towers series, which I have at least tried to read. She has been called “the female Trollope,” not sure if that was meant as a compliment.
You may (or likely may not) like Susan’s final books, the “St. Benet’s Trilogy.” Protagonist is Nick Darrow, son of the infamous former monk Darrow that you mentioned. Nick runs a center in London that deals with the paranormal, including exorcisms (I don’t think they liked to call them that) and drug addiction, and gay male prostitution, all the dark stuff, and the occult. They could be her most “Christian” novels, although no Christian bookstore would touch them with a 20-foot electrician’s pole (fiberglass, so nobody gets fried by the lightning). They remind me a bit of C.S. Lewis’s final book in the Space Trilogy, “That Hideous Strength,” the forces of light versus the forces of darkness. I would not recommend the St Benet series to just anyone.
Ted,
I remember when those 3 books came out – not my cuppa, I’m thinking, though i can’t imagine them being anything like as good as Rickman’s Merrily Watkins series, which are also, to a greater or lesser extent, police procedurals/murder mysteries. The politics in the series also occur in the PD in the closest city, not just in the church. (There’s actually a link between the two, or perhaps it’s more like police politics and corruption run on a parallel track to the C of E politics.) I like the fact that his books are fairly gritty, and Merrily herself (the priest) is pretty down to earth. It’s a good approach to take, i think, given her other job. (The deliverance one, not her being a parish priest.)
That Hideous Strength: *definitely* not my cuppa, for multiple reasons, very much including how Jane Sturrock gets told to stay at home and be submissive to her husband. Yikes!!! Also, the Evil Lesbian character put me off, and still does. It seems as if he threw everything but the kitchen sink into THS.
As per Anthony Trollope, there are two ways to take that. One is related to his clerical novels, Barchester Towers + its followups. That’s a flattering comparison. But he was known for the incredible number of novels he wrote – i gather a lot of it is hack work. So that’s the unflattering comparison.
I’ve tried reading Barchester Towers, but couldn’t get into it. Am not a huge fan of Victorian novelists generally, including Dickens. (If he hadn’t been writing serials for newspapers, it would be one thing, but his novels just go on and on and on. I did like A Tale of Two Cities, although it’s apparently a litmus test among fans of his work – people who only like that book are not true Dickens fans.)
Really, I’m no better when it comes to American novelists like Melville. But then there’s Joseph Conrad, though i suppose he’s Edwardian, not Victorian. Either way, quite a writer!
I know C.S. Lewis was quite taken with Charles Williams’ work, but me? Not so much. Williams, like Yeats, was part of the Order of the Golden Dawn, which was all about ceremonial magick of various kinds. I honestly get the creeps just thinking about it. It was one of the holdouts of the Victorian and Edwardian fascination with the occult, and there are definite links between it and the two different Wiccan traditions that came along in the UK in the mid-20th c. Most definitely not for me. (Rickman has a very interesting, if creepy, recurring character who was involved in things of that ilk – this individual functions as an occasional foil for Merrily, which works quite well.)
Recommended:
Anything by Jane Lane especially around old Scotland
Herries Chronicles – Hugh Walpole (50 years per volume, to the day)
The Whiteoaks and Jalna series by Mazo de la Roche
The Chrysalids by John Wyndham – very surprising
I find Lewis’ only convincing non fiction was the Screwtape writings
Of his fiction I think only Narnia was effective
Re Dickens, his siblings and he had a toy theatre and they wrote scripts. Then he was a Parliamentary reporter.
Note good characters always enter in groups (except Mr & Mrs Right-to-be) and the villains slink around alone.
My favourites albeit very serious are Twist (full version), Dombey and Bleak House. The sheer memorability and critique. Always sorry when I got to the end. (There was also a sketch about Mugby Junction.) And Hard Times. And he expired at age 58.
I understand why Chuzzlewit isn’t popular your side because there was a swamp needing draining. It was on telly when I was little and I would write about it at school the next day.
We had Barchester on the telly and Donald Pleasance was a superb Septimus. I don’t know what those are like to read though.
I find Mark Twain utterly super-excellent.
Of Ray Bradbury: the Martian Chronicles, Fahrenheit 451 and Something Wicked This Way Comes are particularly eery.
Without a doubt!
He invented me, did he not?
Frank Herbert (for me anyway) is the cat’s meow for sheer imagination and superb writing skills.
Muff Potter,
The knights who ride their bicycles are among my favourites,