Christmas Tree Cluster –NASA:
“No matter what you do, someone always knew you would.” ― The Birth House
I have learned a crucial lesson in my years of exposing abuse in the church. It doesn’t matter if the church is SBC, PCA, nondenominational, Orthodox, Catholic, or whatever. If the truth is being exposed, the church leaders or their sycophants will go out of their way to silence an individual from talking about the abuse.
Karen Walton (and her husband) were excommunicated from Liam Goligher’s Tenth presbyterian church because they had a transgender child. I was shown the email which confirms the removal. I say this upfront because the Tenth Presby machine appears to be trying to say this excommunication didn’t happen. Perhaps leaders shouldn’t use emails… The elders’ cavalier “We hurt with you, but goodbye” attitude hurt Karen and her husband. In TWW’s post (Update) Liam Goligher Resigns! Guess Those “Personal Conduct Citations” Were Spot on are some of the comments from folks with ties to Tenth Presby.
Karen has given me some emails/documents that indicate that she and her husband were removed from membership at Tenth Presby. If I receive permission, I will post these emails. They are an example of why so many are leaving the church. They are made even more critical because Goligher appears to have been involved in some hanky panky with his gal pal. He got to stay and preach and will probably receive an amicable settlement, which the tithes of the faithful members of the church will supply.
As the days pass, I am becoming increasingly aware of several issues within the church, as outlined by the GRACE report, which is linked in this post. Some church leaders have said this is a fake GRACE report. Dear reader, they are upset because they had chosen not to release the GRACE report. I am so glad that Anglican Watch believes in a different interpretation of the 9th commandment. More on that shortly.
I am providing the exact comments by one Lisa DiGiacomo, who appears to be an expert on applying the Westminster Larger Catechism standards and providing views on women’s roles in groups like the Duggars.
Comment Number One: Shut up, submit to your husband, and where is he, anyway? You are violating the 9th commandment, and don’t forget Matthew 18.
Lisa sure knows how to “win” an argument.
Dear Sister Karen,
For starters, I would like to say that I am sorry that you are in pain over how you have been treated. And for the struggles your family is facing. Ron and I will most certainly be praying for you all and the the matters you are burdened by.
I do want to just jump in here as a woman and sister in Christ, and since your concern is being communicated publicly, I would like to publicly express that regardless of whether your assertions are true (that is not what is in question), it is a violation of the ninth commandment to pass on a bad report in any way other than God prescribes. This is what is personally so disheartening to me about what is going on with our former pastor. The untold liberties people have taken in expressing their opinions about Liam (even if they are first hand experiences) without following the biblical process God has laid out for us. We so often make dealing with one another far more difficult than it needs to be. God makes all of this very simple for us. We have only two options: We all called to cover a multitude of sins, or we follow Matthew 18. Neither of those options give us liberty to express a bad report to anyone other than the accused, a witness, and then the church (or when we must confidently solicit help from a godly person in seeking to discern how to handle something.).
Ron and I are not so naive as to believe anyone is not capable of the most egregious of sins for we know our own hearts and that apart from God’s grace we are all desperately wicked. His point, and now mine, is that we ought to strive to be a part of the solution by confronting our brothers and sisters in Christ in the ways that God ordains and not in such public ways, that in all do respect, I believe violate the 9th commandment.
Karen, might I urge you as a woman, that God has given you a husband to protect you. I would urge you to submit to your husband on this front and if he wants to make this a public matter than let him lead your family on this front. But for you to be coming out publicly against ministers of the gospel, is not something that I believe is becoming of a Christian woman. If your husband is not inclined to address this matter on your behalf, than I encourage you to “leave it to God who judges justly.”
Praying for you all and hoping we will all do our part to end the horrible sin of spreading a bad report to those who are in no way a part of the solution. To your last question, the reason we are not to spread a bad report, is because God forbids us from doing so apart from the courts of the church. See Westminster Larger Catechism on the 9th Commandment below.
If you do desire to talk about anything, I am here for you. I believe you have my phone number.
With heart felt concern for you and your family,
Thoughts:
- She pulls the “you are my sister” card at the beginning, even though they do not have a relationship now.
- Karen violates the 9th commandment. However, Karen is telling the truth as she knows it, so following the letter of the commandment, she is not in violation of it. As you will see, the Westminister Larger Catechism pours all sorts of meaning into this difficult-to-understand commandment.
- Lisa claims that “passing a bad report on to someone else” violates the 9th commandment. However, I don’t see that. The 9th commandment speaks about telling lies about someone else. A bad report may not be a lie. It is essential information that should be known. A pastor who “tiptoes through the tulips” with his gal pal is concerning. It shows a pastor who is a risk taker by performing his “code violation” publicly. I think everyone should be aware of a pastor who behaves in such a manner.
- She says we are called to cover a multitude of sins. Yes, but not sins of abuse or violations of the law. Such sins should be publicly spoken out against.
- Matthew 18 concerns sins between two people in the church. Here is a link. It is one of the most misused verses in the Bible, and Lisa continues that tradition.
- She claims that Instead of passing on a bad report, one can seek help from a godly person. Who? Like Liam? What does she mean by godly? Surely not the elders?
- She says we are “to cover a multitude of sins.” Really? Which ones? How do you deal with abuse? Sex abuse is a crime? Do we cover that one as well?
- Lisa assumes that Karen must allow her husband to speak out on her behalf, and she needs to submit to him. Except… Karen’s husband wrote a lengthy comment that commended her for speaking out…Lisa did not consider such a scenario, which causes me to worry that she has a difficult marriage.
- Speaking out against “ministers of the gospel” is “unbecoming” for a woman. Which “ministers of the gospel?” Explain unbecoming. As we say down here, “Bless her heart.”
Comment Number 2: Why I fear that the Westminster Larger Catechism may contribute to spiritual abuse in the church.
So Lisa, unable to leave it alone, prints the following on the 9th commandment. Pay close attention to the duties required and sins forbidden inherent in the commandment as interpreted by the Westminster Larger Catechism. I am grateful that Lisa printed this out for me. It caused me to stop, carefully read, and reflect on the abuse that I have seen in churches.
Lisa DiGiacomo
Q. 143. Which is the ninth commandment?
A. The ninth commandment is, Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Q. 144. What are the duties required in the ninth commandment?
A. The duties required in the ninth commandment are the preserving and promoting of truth between man and man, and the good name of our neighbor, as well as our own; appearing and standing for the truth; and from the heart, sincerely, freely, clearly, and fully, speaking the truth, and only the truth, in matters of judgment and justice, and in all other things whatsoever; a charitable esteem of our neighbors; loving, desiring, and rejoicing in their good name; sorrowing for and covering of their infirmities; freely acknowledging of their gifts and graces, defending their innocency; a ready receiving of a good report, and unwillingness to admit of an evil report, concerning them; discouraging talebearers, flatterers, and slanderers; love and care of our own good name, and defending it when need requireth; keeping of lawful promises; studying and practicing of whatsoever things are true, honest, lovely, and of good report.
Q. 145. What are the sins forbidden in the ninth commandment?
A. The sins forbidden in the ninth commandment are, all prejudicing the truth, and the good name of our neighbors, as well as our own, especially in public judicature; giving false evidence, suborning false witnesses, wittingly appearing and pleading for an evil cause, outfacing and overbearing the truth; passing unjust sentence, calling evil good, and good evil; rewarding the wicked according to the work of the righteous, and the righteous according to the work of the wicked; forgery, concealing the truth, undue silence in a just cause, and holding our peace when iniquity calleth for either a reproof from ourselves, or complaint to others; speaking the truth unseasonably, or maliciously to a wrong end, or perverting it to a wrong meaning, or in doubtful or equivocal expressions, to the prejudice of the truth or justice; speaking untruth, lying, slandering, backbiting, detracting, talebearing, whispering, scoffing, reviling, rash, harsh, and partial censuring; misconstructing intentions, words, and actions; flattering, vainglorious boasting, thinking or speaking too highly or too meanly of ourselves or others; denying the gifts and graces of God; aggravating smaller faults; hiding, excusing, or extenuating of sins, when called to a free confession; unnecessary discovering of infirmities; raising false rumors, receiving and countenancing evil reports, and stopping our ears against just defense; evil suspicion; envying or grieving at the deserved credit of any; endeavoring or desiring to impair it, rejoicing in their disgrace and infamy; scornful contempt, fond admiration; breach of lawful promises; neglecting such things as are of good report, and practicing, or not avoiding ourselves, or not hindering what we can in others, such things as procure an ill name.
Thoughts
- What is meant by “discouraging talebearers?” I know of many instances in which abuse victims or their advocates were accused of being “talebearers.” They were then ignored. How is this term applied? Does everyone know what this term is? I guess that some have misused this terminology to the detriment of victims of abuse.
- I assume that “speaking the truth unseasonably” means speaking it at the wrong time. That is problematic when it comes to abuse or other sins and crimes in the church. The truth should be told immediately in these circumstances.
- “Talebearing” is mentioned again. It is an old English term meaning to gossip or tell stories. Gossip is defined as “conversation or reports about other people’s private lives that might be unkind, disapproving, or not true.” Once again, the meaning may not be clear to some. One must always tell the truth. Sometimes gossip, which is unkind or disapproving, might also be accurate and need to be dealt with. For example, I disapproved when I learned of Goligher’s activity outside of the church. When we spoke about it, some people thought it was unkind. Yet, it needs to be discussed and brought out into the open. If it was confirmed that Goligher was involved with a deaconess, it needed to be addressed and ascertained if there was similar behavior with other women. Such a scenario is more likely than not.
- Is it wrong to “receive and countenance evil reports?” Not in my book. If there is evil in the camp, it must be exposed. Sadly, many churches refuse to do this. They are afraid to “air their dirty laundry.” How many churches have hidden reports of child sex abuse?
- We do not rejoice in disgrace and infamy. I love the church. However, I am grateful when such things are exposed. Shouldn’t we be glad when evil is exposed?
Number 3 comment by Ron, Lisa’s husband. Only church courts will get at the truth.
Good question, Karen. The only way I can reconcile not spreading a bad report and dealing with sin in the church is by availing ourselves of the church’s courts. I believe that to be God’s ordained accommodation where damaging testimony may be appropriately unearthed. It keeps us all from judging in an unprescribed way.
Thoughts
I have dealt with large and small churches as I’ve covered abuse. Sadly, the “godly” church courts are often filled with men who want to hide sin and attack those who bring it to their attention. Interestingly, the GRACE report allegedly was not made freely available to the church. There are a lot of things in that report which are deeply concerning. Given what I’ve heard about Tenth Presby, I wouldn’t advise anyone to trust your church courts. Can it get cleaned up? Who knows? I haven’t seen much to engender my trust. I may write some further posts in the near future.
Finally, as I said on the home page, “It’s Christmas, and instead of saying Merry Christmas, they hit us over the head with the Westminster Larger Catechism, which is quite difficult to interpret when it comes to abuse.” Maybe it’s time for church leaders to rethink the lingo and become more trauma-informed.
PS Don’t call my husband to see if he knows that I, as a woman, am speaking out on public matters. He knows and can get quite cranky when called about stupid matters.
Point of clarification: Was Lisa’s letter written recently, in response to Karen speaking out about the recent revelation of Goligher’s activities in the park years ago? Or was Lisa’s letter written some years ago, back around the time Karen was excommunicated?
Dee, no one who was brought up on and understands the language of the Westminster Standards would ever think that Ron and Lisa’s interpretation of it is correct. They twist it and the scripture behind it. The ninth commandment applies to false testimony, bad or evil report is by definition, reports that are lies. The court documents and the GRACE report are pretty clear, and exposing it to the light is biblical protection of the flock. Dee, I couldn’t agree more with what you have written. Thank you.
In my humble (but accurate) opinion, pulling the 9th commandment card on this sad story is designed to shame folks into silence. It’s an attempt to manipulate, intimidate, and dominate under the guise of “more godly than thou”. As Christians, we have an obligation to speak out about abusive church leaders and the systems that support them wherever they are in the Body of Christ (whether it’s our church or not). We have an obligation to stand with the victims of their abuse and to bind up their wounds. We have an obligation to be the conscience in church systems which have lost their way, defending their positions with jots and tittles of the law. We do that by speaking out, not sitting idle in the pew. Shouts of “gossip” and “false witness” should not distract the Body of Christ from holding church leaders accountable.
Nathan. Isaiah. Jeremiah. Amos. John the Baptist. Jesus. Francis of Assisi. Martin Luther. Wiliam Wilberforce. Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Good ol’ boys can preach sermons holding the words of these men as examples, but would pull rank on them if they prophesied against abuse in their own churches.
Possible exceptions of Francis and Dr. King, for fear of being called ecumenical or liberal.
Clarifying that the “R” in above comments is not the “R” (me) commenting on some of the other Tenth posts. Can that person’s username be changed by admin?
Lisa’s comments were from this week and can be found here:
https://thewartburgwatch.com/2023/12/10/liam-goligher-resigns-guess-those-personal-conduct-citations-were-spot-on/
It appears that Karen & David were not technically excommunicated, but the letters they did receive do appear to be disciplinary (including threat of trial, threat of discipline, and actual removal from the Tenth / PCA membership roll). The letters could seemingly easily be misinterpreted as excommunication. Is there that much of a difference between removal from membership roll without trial, and excommunication? To most of us, probably not. At the least, Karen & David cannot be expected to have understood the difference between these two technical points when they received the letters.
Was Karen & David & family’s removal from membership a crime, or wrong in some way?
It seems to me to be strange timing (based on the fact that Karen & David’s complaints about possible abusive / innappropriate pastor activity were apparently falling upon deaf ears) and that it was not done in a conscientious way.
I wonder if Karen & David were even really doing something against Tenth’s standards, concerning their (adult?) child who was identifying as trans?
Was their seeming support of their (adult?) child’s activity simply a convenient excuse to get rid of them when they were already creating discomfort in the Session with their questions about what was really going on at Tenth / with Goligher?
Helpful comment by Barbara Roberts: https://thewartburgwatch.com/2023/12/10/liam-goligher-resigns-guess-those-personal-conduct-citations-were-spot-on/#comment-484260
The PCA Book of Church order statutes on excommunication:
https://thewartburgwatch.com/2023/12/10/liam-goligher-resigns-guess-those-personal-conduct-citations-were-spot-on/#comment-484248
The PCA Book of Church order statutes on removal from membership roll:
https://thewartburgwatch.com/2023/12/10/liam-goligher-resigns-guess-those-personal-conduct-citations-were-spot-on/#comment-484248
Darlene… will send a private message. Please consider me a resource for this mom should she welcome support from other parents. Love always Mel
I thought these missives were people punking the comments section.
I guess not. Who knew?
Wreck…meet train.
Going to listen one of my favorite holiday tunes… Chris de Burgh’s “A Spaceman Came Travelling”
I’m not saying it’s aliens….but it’s aliens.
“…by availing ourselves of the church’s courts. I believe that to be God’s ordained accommodation where damaging testimony may be appropriately unearthed.”
++++++++++++++++++++++
what could possibly go wrong…
a court made up of men predisposed to exclude, silence, and dismiss women who make the decisions.
.
.
note to Tenth Presbyterian Church of Philadelphia, the Reformed Presbyterian Church, and christian communities everywhere:
exclude women from 100% equal participation at your own peril. (but you’ll deserve it)
the smartest, toughest, and most capable person in the room is a woman.
elastigirl,
that would be, ‘a court made up of men who make the decisions, who are predisposed to exclude, silence, and dismiss women’.
Jack,
Is there a name for a reverse Poe’s Law?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law
“Finally, as I said on the home page, “It’s Christmas, and instead of saying Merry Christmas, they hit us over the head with the Westminster Larger Catechism, which is quite difficult to interpret when it comes to abuse.” Maybe it’s time for church leaders to rethink the lingo and become more trauma-informed.”
There’s a couple of points I’d like to mention. The Larger Catechism forms part of the Westminster Standards which the church involved holds to and which, as I mentioned to Friend in the last post, member, including the pastors and elders, affirm. So I think that in quoting it the intention was to remind the family of that, not “to hit anyone over the head with it”
As for the paragraphs listed, the positive duties are quite straightforward and in the catechism itself, scriptural references are provided on which the statements are based. The negative duties, in addition to the ones mentioned above, include “passing unjust sentence”, “concealing the truth”, “undue silence in a just cause”, “holding our peace when iniquity callers for either a reproof from ourselves or complaint to others”, “hiding, excusing, or extenuating of sins, when called to a free confession”. There is ample scope in the catechism for investigating abuse and seeking justice for the abused and for uncovering the sins of the abuser. (And for holding the Session to account if they have failed to act justly).
Correction: “callers” should be “calllsl
Ted,
Great comment…
… I was thinking along the lines of how many preachers I have heard over the years “speak poorly” of others…. Especially on political/ doctrine issues and make nasty comments with respect to these “others” with respect to their faith character..
Ker,
Thank you, Ker. I started wondering about what was going on with the Westminster Catechism. I am of the opinion that this interpretation is advanced by those who believe in an authoritarian form of governance.
asachild,
I shall do so. I thought of you this week surrounding this very situation.
I agree!
Great comment.
I read the letter. To anyone who wasn’t trained in the lingo (and it is lingo) of the Session, it reads excommunication. If it makes them feel better, it reads, “Get the heck out of here.
Lowlandseer,
I read the letter. It’s embarrassingly written. It shows that being a “theological expert” does not necessarily mean behaving Christianly.
Lowlandseer,
In some respect, it is good this stuff is getting out there. It’s time to take another look at how things are managed.
R,
R1 and R2.
“Theological experts” have done the Body of Christ much harm over the centuries … some of them Christian, some not. They are directly responsible for dividing the Body of Christ into tribes, separated by jots and tittles of one man’s interpretation of Scripture. There are over 30,000 different Christian denominations and organizations worldwide, each with a different twist of theology. I suppose as long as they keep the Main Thing the main thing that’s OK … but I sure would like to see us all get together before I pass from the scene without any group claiming to be the one and only true church.
… what Satan did with Scripture while offering opportunities to:
1. Adam and Eve in Eden
2. Jesus in the Wilderness.
Interesting how we have parallel events happening in our churches (Scripture) and our civic venues (rule of law and social mores). Jesus also confronted twisted Scripture, twisted laws, and twisted social mores with the religious civic elite of His time.
Twisted. Tricky. Tormented.
In contrast, God is straightforward and clear. Beyond our understanding, as God would be, but forthright and unequivocal.
There will be a special line on Judgement Day for ministers and ministries which do this … it ain’t going to be pretty. When you do this, you “exclude, silence, and dismiss” spiritual gifts given to the Body of Christ.
Every member of the Body of Christ is Holy Spirit gifted: Rom 12, 1 Cor 12, Eph 4.
The exclusion, silencing, and dismissal of half the human race, all created in the image of God, is one doomed church culture.
Another doomed church culture is the exclusion of some HS gifts, such as Discernment. Often this is accompanied by really going to town on the gifts of Giving ($$$) and Pastoring and maybe Serving (doing stuff at pastor’s behest around the church).
An entitled man, free money for him, free volunteers under him, and throw in a few wannabe musicians onstage jazzing up the vibe, then Shebang! Shazam! BEHOLD, CHURCH!
Beware. Jesus had/has nothing to do with this. It’s not the Body of Christ as found in the Bible.
Those knocking down the Bible as source,
1. have you read
2. and studied the Bible,
3. the entire Bible,
4. for yourself?
Bible troubles seem to stem from false teachers like the above aforementioned “pastor” living on free money and free servants with musician wannabes. He carefully dances around Scripture to keep his self-serving gig going strong. To build himself a dynasty. Mega. Satellites. Publishing. Media. Networking. Strongmen.
This gunking up of the Bible among Evangelicals today is similar to the religious elite of Jesus’ day with their Talmud that gunked up the Torah.
Jesus: “You tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but you yourselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. Everything you do is done for people to see.”
– from Matthew 23.
Let’s see, God Almighty gave a pretty succent “Thou shalt not bear false witness” and somehow we humans twist that around to include speaking the truth when someone else commits a crime or sins horribly.
Now, yes, there are places in the Bible that speak against gossip, but not in the 9th Commandment. That is abuse of the Word. And as far as gossip goes it is much like the command not to judge paired with the command to judge.
So no, I don’t need to broadcast to the world if I see you stretch the length of the crappie you caught. But yeah, I do need to broadcast to the law, to all have a just concern such as an employer, and to potential victims if I know you are cooking the books at work.
Honestly I think every time someone quotes some confession of faith or catechism instead of the pure Word we should stop them in their tracks.
To do otherwise just enables the darvoing to continue. And this post is exactly that. Someone speaks up about an abusive situation, or harmful act of another and immediately the one who spoke up is stoned verbally for the sin of what? Two eyes, two ears, and a spine?
Dee, from your post:
‘Lisa assumes that Karen must allow her husband to speak out on her behalf, and she needs to submit to him. Except… Karen’s husband wrote a lengthy comment that commended her for speaking out…Lisa did not consider such a scenario, which causes me to worry that she has a difficult marriage.’
Karen’s husband’s comment was excellent – best thing I’ve read in a long time.
There’s been an outbreak of such characters in the American church.
I like the J.B. Phillips translation of that passage:
“For they preach but do not practise. They pile up back-breaking burdens and lay them on other men’s shoulders — yet they themselves will not raise a finger to move them. Their whole lives are planned with an eye to effect.”
False prophets, wolves in shepherd’s clothing, hirelings … they do not love as they ought … they use and abuse.
I have read and re-read Lisa’s letter and the catechism until my head hurts.
Lisa is a stereotypical bossy busybody!
From both Lisa and the catechism, I get the feeling that they believe that telling the truth about someone falls under “bearing false witness” category when the truth is about exposing evil.
And, it seems to me the the catechism on the 9th commandment was constructed to protect the upper echelons and hide any evil in the ranks.
Max,
“In my humble (but accurate) opinion, pulling the 9th commandment card on this sad story is designed to shame folks into silence. It’s an attempt to manipulate, intimidate, and dominate…”
+++++++++++
as i read Ron and Lisa’s comments on the other post, i kept thinking ‘is this real?’
they both sounded like ai bots. with insular machine learning.
Ron – a bot of the Reformed church leadership industry
Lisa – a bot of Ron
it seemed to me that voices outside these respective communication spheres threw off their programming.
FreshGrace,
“Karen’s husband’s comment was excellent – best thing I’ve read in a long time.”
++++++++++++++
yes. i wish more christian men had the clarity to recognize institutional church nonsense, and the courage of their convictions to call it out.
dee,
“It shows that being a “theological expert” does not necessarily mean behaving Christianly.”
+++++++++++++++++++
yeah…
said this many times and very recently:
my agnostic/atheist friends and family clearly and easily demonstrate Jesus of Nazareth.
It’s natural for them, not something they run through a theological mental processor.
True, IMHO, theology alone is not walking in the Spirit while not fulfilling the desires of the flesh. Galatians 5. Walking in the Spirit is engaging with our transcendent God, not theology.
However, walking in the social mores and values of the Bible can be performed without God, argues Charles Taylor in his sweep of the history of human culture:”A Secular Age.”
Christian social order was hijacked in the Middle Ages, during the Enlightenment, to be performed in the imminent domain, without God. The transformation of society and science followed, right to our time, Taylor notes.
However, the imminent, by definition, is limited. God is not, except to consistency with His character, which is Love.
In the end, notes Taylor, we need God, Transcendent God, who is behind the values, order, and mores, because this socially ordered lifestyle falls short in the face of what happens in our world. Like in Prague today.
Examples: Burning Man last summer. Idealistic: yes. But in the face of weather catastrophe, social order collapsed.
Polite Society, in general, provides many more examples.
OTOH, it was the Transcendence of God that guided the ten Boom family, George Müller, Gladys Aylward, etc., to save lives while facing extreme evil.
Polite Social Order can be good, but in the end we need more; we need our Transcendent God.
In some churches we know, mainly Baptist, both clergy and lay are hesitant or even against calling on Transcendent God. They, too, believe life consists of just follow the Book chapter and verse, as they see it, and all ends well. Codes and categories, Taylor would say.
IMHO, some Charismatics swing the pendulum completely the other way, off the edge of the Earth, far from any reality. Their alluding to the transcendent can be somewhat batty; they don’t know their Bible, is what we have found.
Pure Mathematician Dr. John Lennox teaches about this, and can be found on YouTube. Many top scientists believe in God while many do not. Those who don’t, believe in the order and laws of science but not in the Law-Giver, the Creator of Science.
dee,
Dee, they do not understand that authority is God’s, vested in them by the people of the congregation that elected them. Yes, they are ordained by other ordained men, but we choose them to begin with in a carefully laid out process working with the Session, and the people are not without recourse if elders misuse the authority granted them. The Presbyterian form of government is the basis of our American representative government. And the PCA is the most bottom up, not top down, of the major Presbyterian denominations. The PCA is in some ways a reaction to the authoritarian, centralist, top down government of the Southern Presbyterian Church. The northern PCA churches joined in partly as a reaction to the United Presbyterian Church, now the PCUSA, doing similar things. The RPCES got gobbled up in the larger denominational process. (I miss the RPCES. They were lovely.) The OPC opted out of that process. Presbyterians love to argue fine points, split, join, reform. And round and round. Given their origins though, the last thing a real Presbyterian will put up with is an oppressor. The confession and catechisms, the Book of Church Order, are meant protect the people, whether members or elders or deacons. Those who twist them should be dealt with. I hope Tenth will do its job and the people will make sure of it.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
Nancy, busybody was going to be my next label for them! The apostle Paul has things to say about that! Lisa needs to stop going “house to house“ meddling in peoples’ business. And her spiritual head husband, too. Sheesh.
Is it a coincidence that all PCA pastors and elders are male?
Ron DiGiacomo is a PCA Ruling Elder in Philadelphia Presbytery from 2022. just being a shill for current leadership. him and his wife know exactly what went on.
Until the people of the congregation understand this, nothing will change. The authority and influence of Jesus in the American church are waning because neither pulpit or pew fully understand that “All power in heaven and on earth is given to Jesus” (Matthew 28:18). So, church leaders substitute their power and authority to manipulate, intimidate and dominate the pew. The greatest hindrance to the Kingdom of God on earth in the here and now is the organized church, which is not ‘the’ Church, operating in illegitimate authority.
Ker,
“…the last thing a real Presbyterian will put up with is an oppressor.”
++++++++++++++++
tacking on to Friend’s comment,
so, just running with a dictionary definition of oppression (“unjust or cruel exercise of authority or power):
excluding half the human race, the female half, from decision-making, positions of influence, leadership, participation, 100% of a voice is unjust.
even if someone doesn’t find it cruel, it is empirically unjust.
if one theologizes this away, it simply means anything is fair game for being theologized away for any reason (to make a theological math equation work, convenience, self-benefit, politics, career, deep insecurities, etc.)
i’m counting on common sense, the power’s of imagination, and empathy having not being shut down.
The Biblical model for church governance is congregational polity, not elder-rule. It’s tough for a congregation under the domination of a pastor/elder power structure to get their spirit in edgewise. Pastors/elders are supposed to be servants, not overlords.
Ava Aaronson,
I think God is involved in every act of kindness, compassion, generosity, honesty, self-sacrifice, etc.
Who really knows how any of this works,….
but it’s better to give it some thought and semi-commit to the possibility of one’s hypothesis than ignore it altogether. Better to have used one’s reasoner than not.
I suppose in the end it comes down to individual choices made in the moment. I believe God/Jesus/Holy Spirit are a source of help/power. [understatement, of course – how can (they) not be].
With the ten Booms, I don’t doubt God’s help and participation there. I believe those who did likewise came from all social and religious backgrounds. Surely God helped them, too.
I agree, we need our Transcendent God. I also see that those who haven’t gone through typical Christian faith formalities (prayed the sinner’s prayer, etc.) behave in the same higher road way that Christians do.
…and so I tend to think ‘christians’ (whatever that even means) don’t have exclusive claim to our Transcendent God. I think our Transcendent God belongs to & is accessible to everyone (by whatever name or no name).
I’m not quite that naive. My point is these folks live in some alternate churchiverse. Their comments reflect that. I wouldn’t even call them trolls because they really believe this drok. But good point on reverse Poe’s law.
I am serious about it being aliens, just not saying it’s aliens….
Karen and David should just dust off and nuke this place from orbit.
This denomination sounds about as much fun as a fall down to a flight of stairs.
Amen.
I think it depends on the people themselves, transcendent god also told the Israelites to raze Jericho and kill/enslave everyone left over. It depends on how you interpret the missives of the bible.
I feel these were good people and would be good regardless.
Friend,
There are a number of denominations that are male ordination only. The PCA is one of them. That doesn’t mean that women can’t lead, but there are certain roles that only an ordained person can perform. That is true in the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod, for example, I believe. That said, there are good Presbyterian denominations that do allow the ordination of women, such as the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, and ECO. I doubt Ron and Lisa would agree that they are good, lol. Personally, I know many good male elders, and debating Presbyterian policy is beyond my ability in my most familiar contexts, so I can’t really speak to it here. I know that the problems at Tenth Pres had a lot to do with bad elders who were men, oppressing women. And children and other men. I don’t know enough about the situation to speak to whether it was because of the maleness of the elders or the distance of their hearts from God. They seem to have gone after their own way, and I suspect there were a lot of problems that had nothing to do with women that they also sinned in. And given that one of the worst of the bad actors was a female deacon, I really don’t want to out of hand blame the male gender, I don’t think that’s fair to good men who love the Lord and seek the best for their sisters in Christ. To me all of this has the sense of serious rot down to the very core of Tenth Pres. there needs to be some very serious cleaning of that house.
Not Presbyterian policy; rather, polity. Ecclesiology, too.
A lot of things—love, for example—are gifts to humankind, not just to Christians.
I don’t mean that non-Christians secretly acknowledge the Abrahamic God or the Triune God by giving and receiving love. I mean that God is generous, giving freely and not demanding tribute from all and sundry.
Max,
Many of my best loved brothers and sisters in Christ would agree with you. But like politics, I prefer not to debate Church polity. I think God allows for all kinds, and arguing over that would for me be like trying to sift the wheat from the chaff. I am very disappointed in the Session of Tenth Pres; had they properly followed the Lord, Scripture, the Standards, and PCA polity, Wynne would’ve been dealt with long ago and Liam would’ve told the elders what happened 10 years ago. The female deacon with whom he was arrested in a compromising situation would also have been dealt with. Yes, they are truly guilty and it sure looks like they are, and she of oppressing women and men and children herself from what it sounds like, they all should’ve been deposed. Which means their ordinations and offices taken away. Deaconesses are not ordained at Tenth, but either way, she should’ve been toast. And, sort of a separate issue, what about Christine? Who is helping this poor lady? Here she is in America, far from home, what is she to do? She lost her church, community and income. Tenth had better take good care of her.
I am pointing out the ridiculous comment made by the exceedingly unusual Mrs. DiGiacomo. She told Karen to go home and submit to her husband and have him speak for her. And if he won’t, then trust God instead of speaking out. Read her comment.
This is not a simple misunderstanding about the senior pastor. It is a misunderstanding about the role of women throughout history. That woman is nuts, not just speaking out against pastors but against women in general.
I apologize, I meant to say, if they are truly guilty. Liam and his picnic buddy admitted so to the court. GRACE’s report was incredibly thorough and a lot of people do look pretty darn guilty. But I really try not to play God in these things. That said, even the appearance of evil is disqualifying.
Ker,
Yes, I’m aware of this.
I first met an ordained woman pastor in the 1970s, and my little heart leapt for joy. She was a Presbyterian. Doubtless her ordination helped to lead to the various schisms you seem to consider routine for Presbyterians—although I’ve been through two church schisms, and both were excruciating.
Organizations are healthier when they open themselves up to include everyone, listen to all voices, and distribute work and authority widely. If the starting position is to exclude half of the adults, you will waste half of the intelligence and skill.
You also write, “I really don’t want to out of hand blame the male gender, I don’t think that’s fair to good men who love the Lord and seek the best for their sisters in Christ.” The obvious answer is to let the sisters in Christ seek the best for themselves.
I think the Phil Sander situation needs to be revisited. So that you know, I have spoken with him and seen his correspondence. Sadly, it looks like he may have been right on some things. And the gal pal of Liam was one of the ones speaking out against him in her vaunted role of “deaconess.”
dee,
I couldn’t agree with you more, Dee. I have cut off friends for similar things. John Piper and his ilk, a whole heck of Lot of southern Baptists, reformed people of a number of stripes, and plain old American evangelicals love that garbage. It’s insane. Is there a way that I can communicate with you privately, Dee, to try to explain why I don’t want to debate it here or even put myself out there on the topic? I have been brutalized by my closest friends over these things. Some names you might recognize.
An atheist would not agree.
Probably a moralist would also not agree.
Some Baptists, the codes and categories types, are not really into the transcendency of God either. (When faced with challenges, the Codes & Categories people fault a failure to follow biblical codes.
But the Bible is never enough. We need relationship with our Transcendent God to face our No Fault of Our Own challenges.)
Both Canadian Charles Taylor and Irishman John Lennox describe these cultures of social order: those without God, those without our Transcendent God.
But there’s another rude and radical church culture where church folk with their claim to their “Transcendent Jesus” is a Get Out of Jail Free Pass. Anything goes there, ‘cuz “grace”. Deadly and dangerous for the vulnerable. Beware.
Ker,
When I say brutalized, I mean over complementarianism, which I wholeheartedly reject. And I don’t mean to hurt anyone, I am not supporting the things I’m informing you on, I’m just giving you information you might not be aware of on this blog. Presbyterian are a very small group bigger picture. Church schisms are a grief, it’s a sad joke at Presbyterian seem to do it a lot. To me it is a deep ache.
If one thinks that the 9th commandment is primarily about “reputation”, then the WLC implications may follow, sort of a “penumbra” of the commandment
But perhaps the commandment is primarily about justice — don’t testify falsely against a neighbor in any proceeding, legal or otherwise. (The 3rd commandment might have a similar “justice” concern, that God’s Name not be invoked in ways that promote injustice, for example by falsely swearing on the Name).
If the 9th commandment is primarily about “justice”, that might argue against concealing things in ways that would protect a “good name” that was not merited.
The piling on against the speaker of unwelcome things here has, to my mind, a bit of a DARVO feel to it, or at least the ARVO part.
Evidently, Tenth viewed Mr. Goligher as too big to fail. He was admired in reformed circles, preached around the world, wrote several books, had a large following on the internet. So what if he had a hanky panky problem and narcissistic behavior, he sure could preach! The American church really needs to get over elevating pulpit personalities above the Lord.
Yep, old ARVO has been out and about again! The prophets were hated because they were the bearers of bad news. Much of the American church just doesn’t want to be bothered by truth.
Max,
Liam was good at it. I am glad that this has come out, and now I know, secondhand, of staff who left Tenth because of the bullying from this man who could be so charming. But that’s how they work, isn’t it? The elders should’ve protected everyone from it and if he would not change, and from what I hear he would not, been done with him long ago. And if anyone doubts which side I am on, read my very first post ever on the Wartburg Watch, under the thread about Liam.
Max,
Not just the American church, look at Iain Campbell. And look at how they piled on Dee and Mrs. Campbell. Their confidence in God to preserve his church in the midst of these things is very low if they think their denials and coverups are necessary. They were not protecting the church, they were protecting themselves and the programs that they valued, the fame and glory they wanted. Who in their right mind could trust people like that again?
The difference between a False Prophet and a True Prophet is the False Prophet tells the King what the King wants to hear and the True Prophet tells the King what the King NEEDS to hear.
And when someone is established in any Position of Power, all they want to hear is Praise and Flattery.
In short, an INFLUENCER without the TikTok Challenge Videos.
And woe to be to the brave voice who speaks a word from Lord “You’re the man!” in a rebuking sense rather than praise.
Agreed. Sin and rebellion in the house of God knows no boundaries. Perhaps more rampant in the American church, but a universal dilemma we have found ourselves in.
Max,
Yes.
OMG!
“be a part of the solution” is used frequently at the church that I left.
It seems the so call “mature” xtian leaders’ mind set/verbiage are so similar across many xtian groups/fractions – it is about image management and control of the situation.
These leaders are “two fold more the child of hell” Matt 23:15
I think it’s deliberately reapplying “christian nationalism” within the church. I take comfort from other comments that this isn’t considered the sole norm within the wider presbyterian tradition – because I am likely to join some sort of presbyterians!
My theory is, a go-between could have assured Liam on Tenth’s behalf that they would be sure to straighten up under him. After all, every pastor’s church was as equally depraved as each other’s – and his previous ones – wasn’t it?
Are all imaginings vain, or only the vain ones?
Then get rid of the rascals in church leadership! Don’t put up with them because they are “God’s anointed” … if they were really anointed, they wouldn’t be rascals! The solution is for ‘you’ (the congregation) to clean house, humble yourself, pray, repent, seek God .. before God will forgive and heal your church. If elder-rule polity or denominational governance won’t allow you to do the right thing (they like to protect their own), then get the heck out of there!
Timely article on fallen pastors in Reformation 21 today
https://www.reformation21.org/blog/when-a-pastor-falls
I want to offer another perspective on Lisa’s comments on this blog. She is unusual only in playing out her role in public and stepping out onto a forum like TWW. Her role as a woman in a complementarian system that is abusive is not at all unusual.
Thinking at the level of the system is critical to consider if we want in the work to disentangle Christian churches and organizations from the cancer of abuse. When a person has cancer, doctors address it at a systemic level. So, too, it’s most helpful to view her words not merely as one woman’s opinion, but as a woman acting as part of a system (in this case in the PCA).
Brad Sargent aka Futuristguy whom I first learned of on TWW developed a brilliant graphic called the Pyramid of Abuse that illustrates all the pieces of systems that maintain abuse. (I also first learned of his Pyramid of Abuse on TWW!) Readers can view the pyramid and learn more here: https://futuristguysfieldguides.wordpress.com/1-1-field-guide-1/section-03/chapter-08/
and here: https://futuristguysfieldguides.wordpress.com/1-1-field-guide-1/section-03/chapter-06/
So within a complementarian system where there is abuse, and where women are frequently victims, it is also not at all unusual for women to take on what Brad calls the role of “enforcer” against other women.
We hear more about men in complementarian systems doing this because they hold the official positions and tend to speak more publicly, but women do a lot of it behind the scenes, keeping other women in line. Had Lisa played her role privately, we would likely never have known about it, but I think it is useful for us to get a public look at what typically goes on “behind the curtain.” I believe many women who act as enforcers sometimes believe they are genuinely offering sisterly advice consistent with their theology and don’t even realize they are “enforcers” in a system of abuse. But being an enforcer gets a woman benefits a woman within that system, so it’s as rational a position for women to assume as it is for men.
Rational, not right. It’s wrong, but I think we need to understand the forces within a system that work within the various roles or we’ll be continually focusing on the “bad apple” and not the barrel.
If Lisa is sincere, she will humbly apologize publicly for violating her own standards publicly in rebuking Karen publicly for speaking publicly and in making a false accusation regarding Karen’s relationship with her husband. As it turns out, they were working in tandem as were Lisa and her husband. Until she publicly apologizes, she remains in a state of hypocrisy. However, I hope that she will go beyond that and consider her role within the system, asking herself if being an “enforcer” is a role she wants to continue to play.
In a body that was not infested with abuse, Lisa might be playing the role of a healthy immune cell. But as it is, she is an immune cell zealously attacking the wrong thing, as happens in autoimmune disorders. In cancer, the body feeds the cancer cells generously and cancer often hides itself from the immune cells. (Apologies for the mixed metaphors!) Abusers are masters of disguise and evasion! In some treatments for cancer, physicians can get the attention of the immune cells, so that they attack the cancer. I think that is the role the TWW plays and that Karen and others are playing: trying to direct the immune system to go after the cancer of abuse.
God made us for community with himself and with others. In the West, we have a tendency to think individually. Scripture refers to the church as a body and makes it clear that we all influence each other. But like the journalists at the Boston Globe who realized that going after individual bad actors wasn’t going to do much good in addressing the widespread abuse in the Catholic church, we need to keep in mind both individual “cells” and the “body” as a whole in our quest to root out abuse.
Yes, charming.
Line up our current leaders with Jesus:
Charming? Never.
Pricey sneakers? Nope.
Edgy style? Not at all.
Cute accent? Not that we know of.
Latest fashion? Not his thing.
Ladies’ man? He never got the girl.
Cool crowd? The opposite – he had a ragtag motley crew.
Hollywood looks? Not a looker.
Family legacy? “Does anything worthwhile come from Nazareth,” they asked.
Hi-tech ride? No ride, no wheels. He walked.
Jesus was packaged completely ordinary, start to finish, top to bottom. And yet Jesus was the most extraordinary man to ever walk this earth.
Jesus was not a look. He was action. That action was love. Jesus was a man unafraid to love to the nth degree. He lifted up the beaten down and brought down the high and haughty. That’s what God’s love does.
Thanks, Lowlandseer. One of the best articles on the subject that I have read. Blunt and truthful … a warning shot over the bow of the pulpit. A timely article, indeed, because it is due time to shout from the housetops.
Preach it, Max. Exactly. What needs to be done.
The American church needs to get over its fascination with European accents in the pulpit. Just because a pastor speaks with a charming foreign brogue, doesn’t mean he is God’s mouthpiece. I have a “charming” Southern accent, but don’t always honor God with my speech.
“An unbeliever reads about an awful scandal and thinks ‘that person is so awful, I hate people like that.’
A Christian reads about an awful scandal and thinks, ‘That could easily be me. God be merciful to me.'” Strachan
Lowlandseer,
Thanks. It is a good article. A couple of comments blunt its force, in my view:
“Pastors therefore should understand they are the special objects of attack (Zech. 13:7). … all sins are hateful and offensive to God, and even the least sin deserves his eternal wrath.”
The theology is fairly standard, but church folks often misuse these ideas. The notion that certain people are “special objects of [Satan’s] attack” is used to make people feel special, score martyrdom points, and hide behind the excuse that “the Devil made me do it.” I think most people do better when they focus on Jesus’ attention rather than Satan’s.
When we say that “the least sin deserves his eternal wrath,” we go straight to sin-leveling, worm theology, and filthy rags. It would be better to call people to a higher standard, instead of emphasizing that everyone deserves the same thing.
tldr; I don’t want to give bad pastors any excuses.
Amen and Amen!! Sin-leveling is promoted by bad-boy pastors to distract the pew from holding them accountable to the higher standard required of those who preach/teach the Gospel.
What you said Max is quite interesting. I came across the same statement on Facebook just after the Liam Goligher situation became public. The person (an American pastor/theologian) stirred up quite a rabble calling for an end to importing Scottish ministers, ridiculing their “brogue” and declaring there were plenty of fine men in the USA who could do the job better. And I wondered if such statements would be tolerated if it were any other group or nationality.
And then, a couple of posts ago, someone on here (not a regular contributor) said that Europeans have a different view of morality and maybe it wasn’t such a big thing for Liam Goligher.
So I will reply with my own favourite observation – “Christianity in America is 3,000 miles wide and half an inch deep” — Dr. J.I. Packer
I hope you have a good Christmas with family and friends. Best wishes
My wife would agree with 100%. She told me the dynamic among women in church was like being in a brothel with senior pastor’s wife as the top enforcer (then women&children director and so forth).
She was groomed in how to steer a conversation back in line with the church’s perspective on life and relationship with husband/kids, how to promote “good” gossip, how to have godly fear of one’s husband, what is the acceptable way to manage a household, etc.
I have no idea what my wife was taught. I only found out after we left the church and she finally felt safe to open up about it. The was so much fear of me instill in her during our time in the church. Looking back she felt disgusted and being used.
You and Dr. Packer will get no argument from me on that! There is no doubt that much of the American church is swimming in shallow water. To quote a former pastor of mine “The institutional church in America has only a thin veneer of Christianity.”
Merry Christmas to you and yours, Lowlandseer. See you next year!
Pewsitters are supposed to trust in church courts, but bad actors can simply do an end run.
For example, I happened to read the official disciplinary document drawn up by the South Florida presbytery against TT. Can’t find it now, but they’d clearly put in weeks of blood, sweat, toil and prayers. They even transferred his membership to a small church where he was supposed to humbly learn repentance. But a mere 3 weeks later, he was hired by another church! There were two technicalities, you see… “That was South— we’re in Central!” And “We’re not giving TT the official title of ‘Teaching Elder’”!
A few months later they realized they’d been bamboozled, but at the cost of how much of the pewsitters’ hard-earned donations?
Lowlandseer,
Friend,
“Pastors therefore should understand they are the special objects of attack (Zech. 13:7).
“The notion that certain people are “special objects of [Satan’s] attack””
+++++++++++++++++++++
darkness/evil & any hierarchy of its agents are finite — it/they are not omnipresent in focus and concentration.
i think it’s a rare human specimen that attracts these forces in any degree of concentration more than very occasionally.
it’s a measure of the christian identity crisis to think that any of us are that cosmic-interesting and cosmic-important (beyond our micro spheres where we do have significance & influence that matters).
similarly, i’ve heard joe and joanne christian comment on anything happening in their life that isn’t optimal as “God’s teaching me sumthin’…”
i think most things just happen. like….rain. or traffic. or parked cars. I think most things are in this category.
it takes up a lot of inner resources always suspecting there are nefarious or providential forces behind what goes on in a given day.
and it feeds into a very self-involved, overly introspective existence.
it’s not practical. it’s tiring. it’s on the superstitious, magical-thinking side.
Strachan…really? He digs himself a hole when he opens his mouth. Strachan, commenting about abuse in general, got into hot water for this statement. He was taken to school on the matter. Seneca, if you think it could be you when you hear about child sex abuse, then you should see a psychiatrist immediately. I never felt that it could be me in that circumstance.
Also, if you think it could be you, as you read about one more fallen pastor, don’t become a pastor.
Joe and Joanne need to get over themselves.
I think you’re right.
No rhyme, no reason, no deep truth, s|-|it happens…
The things I’ve heard, Dee, over the years. It has humbled me because I could see myself in the wrong circumstances raised in a broken environment doing terrible things. If anyone has struggled with nicotine addiction than you know how very powerful an addiction can be. Generally cigarettes kill only you and you’ll never be jailed for smoking them. I highly suspect, everybody is pretty much vulnerable to an addiction; sex, gossip, rage, untruthfulness to say nothing of pride, gluttony et al.
“There but for the grace of God……”
And yet another reason to stay at home and save 10%. The only keeping Christians in line is fear of getting caught.
I don’t believe anymore but I don’t hate, I leave that for the church.
“The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you.” – Neill DeGrasse Tyson
elastigirl,
Good for you. But try reading “The Christian Warfare” by John Downame or “The Christian in Complete Armour” by William Gurnall. Better still, read the Bible.
Eyewitness,
Eyewitness, you hit the nail on the head. I have known so many women like this. I have never known one to truly repent of it. They may leave their church if they somehow lose their power, but they will simply find another. Legalists are like that. Sounds like she and Ron did just that, or maybe they never did find another congregation that was good enough for them?
Lowlandseer,
Hmmm. One thinks of Donald Macleod and Ian Campbell. I think Scottish men have a 7th commandment problem. RTS in America teaches their students in every class to beware of temptations in the areas of money, sex, and power.
Lowlandseer,
Another favorite, Precious Remedies Against Satan’s Devices, Thomas Brooks
https://www.preachtheword.com/bookstore/remedies.pdf
Well, some of us Christians don’t think that hanky panky in a public place could easily be me. By the mercy of God, we ‘are’ Christians and with that precious gift comes a desire to see purity and holiness flowing through His church. Some of us Christians think highly enough of the Body of Christ to speak out about sin in the camp, even if an awful scandal is in the pulpit.
A legalist of this type led the mothers’ prayer group at our church. Things went well until she disagreed with something the pastor said. She then spent months trying to get us to lobby our husbands to zero out our annual giving.
My favorite memory is of group prayer, though. We’d be sitting there offering our words to God—concerns about our children’s health and wellbeing—and she would jump in every minute or so with a loud “HEDGE ‘EM IN WITH THORNS!!”
Me neither.
Lowlandseer,
you presume much.
we see things differently. do you have a good reason for not being polite about it?
“Well, some of us Christians don’t think that hanky panky in a public place could easily be me. By the mercy of God, we ‘are’ Christians and with that precious gift comes a desire to see purity and holiness flowing through His church. Some of us Christians think highly enough of the Body of Christ to speak out about sin in the camp, even if an awful scandal is in the pulpit.” Max
__________
Sadly brother Max, I find myself lacking in purity
Hope your not implying Christianity is better elsewhere. The church worldwide has the same problem, not just America.
Bridget,
Agreed, a thin veneer of faith in Christ has been stretched across the planet. The church worldwide has drifted away from a holy standard. “When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?” (Luke 18:8)
Oh yes, let us reflect on this verse Kings 2:23Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, “Go up, you bald head! Go up, you bald head!” So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the Lord. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.
Don’t mess with the bald! So saith the Lord!…. praise be….
Jack,
See I can theologize. It’s easy to figure out the will of God.
Women who speak in church have to shave their heads – ok I know it’s women who don’t cover their heads, but I’m discerning here.
So if you mess those women, who are now bald you will be smited by holy female bears!
And the result is:
Deuteronomy 23:1No man whose testicles have been crushed or whose organ has been cut off may become a member of the Assembly of God
I really should volunteer to teach Sunday school, I’m a theological Yoda….
Friend,
Raise your hands, everyone who has had to vacate a prayer group.
How ’bout opted to leave a church because of the wayward prayer group?
Run by womenfolk?
✔✔✔ check check check
Then the dear pastor drops by to say, “Yeah, sorry ’bout the outta control wayward off the rails ladies’ prayer group.”
Check.
Friend,
Wow. Sounds like a gem. Yikes. When she could have surrounded you and your children with love, she chose pricker bushes. Sad.
Jack,
Jack,
LOL! Good one! Thanks for the laugh Jack!
Ker,
About the term ‘busybodies’ — many English translations of 1 Tim 5:13 wrongly convey the idea that Paul was calling women ‘busybodies’ and ‘gossips’.
For evidence, dig into the links at my article featuring the work of Andrew Bartlett: The worst mistranslations in English Bibles relating to women. https://cryingoutforjustice.blog/2021/01/25/the-worst-mistranslations-in-english-bibles-relating-to-women/
Lisa did not write a letter. Dee has quoted from a comment by Lisa, which Lisa wrote 19 Dec 2023. Here’s the link to Lisa’s comment:
https://thewartburgwatch.com/2023/12/10/liam-goligher-resigns-guess-those-personal-conduct-citations-were-spot-on/#comment-484161
Ephesians 5:11
“And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather rebuke them.” (NMB)
“And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.” (NKJ)
Like Dee, I have read the two letters which Tenth’s Session (the elders at Tenth) sent to Karen and David Walton. I’m pasting here a bit of what I wrote at TWW’s previous post about Liam Goligher and Tenth.
It seems to me, now, that Tenth did not actually ‘excommunicate’ Karen and Dave from Tenth, using the definition of excommunication found in the BCO.
It seems to me that Tenth Session removed Karen and Dave’s names from Tenth Presbyterian’s church membership roll, and told Karen and Dave that they would no longer be considered as living in accordance with the vows of membership that people take when becoming members in the PCA, therefore Session did not consider that they were living in accord with the doctrines of the national PCA church. That is my own wording, with me trying to simplify and clarify what happened, for a lay person’s understanding.
I can understand why Karen felt and believed they had ‘excommunicated’ her.
The problem is that the men on Session and the Session Clerk use language from the BCO. To them, that language makes sense and has clear, well-defined meaning. There are several different kinds or subsets of “discipline” as defined in the BCO. To lay people in the pews, all that language sounds like jargon: mucus-clogged management speak. A lay person can easily think that Session meant “We are excommunicating you.”
(Find my full comment here: https://thewartburgwatch.com/2023/12/10/liam-goligher-resigns-guess-those-personal-conduct-citations-were-spot-on/#comment-484260 )
I think that if a denomination holds a firm view that transgendering is sinful, it is reasonable for that denomination to refuse (or rescind) church membership to adults who support transgendering.
However, I think that if a denomination takes a hard line against transgendering, it should also take an equally hard line (not only in rhetoric, but in PRACTICE) against all the other kinds of sins which the GRACE report has shown were being done by leaders at Tenth.
The Session at Tenth have a massive double standard. They are hypocrites, and their hypocrisy has deeply wounded people like Karen and Dave. They rescinded Karen and Dave’s membership, but they have tolerated many heinous sinners on their own leadership team (Carrol Wynne being the most recent example of a heinous sinner they are tolerating).
As for Lisa and Ron DiGiacomo, their application of scripture disgusts me. Dee may be right in describing them as sycophants. They are certainly great examples of the legalistic type of Presbyterian. Not all Presbyterians I have know are highly legalistic like Lisa and Ron. But Presbyterianism has always had a tendency to stray onto the legalistic bypath. And boy, does that bypath have weeds!
The Westminster Larger Catechism has lots of excellent points, but in the hands of legalists it can be wielded like a wrecking ball.
The Book of Church Order with the church courts system can be a playing field for predators and oppressors.
I think the root of these problems probably can be traced back to John Calvin. I haven’t yet read “The Judaising Calvin” by Jacob Hunnius, but I’ve been told that it exposes how Calvin darkened the light of the early reformation and turned it into more of an Old Testament thing where the preacher was akin to the Levitical Priest.
Dee, you wrote ‘Phil Sander’. Do you mean Phil Snyder?
Amen! Spot on!
Yes! As soon as I learned about Liam Goligher doing that stuff in the park with Susan Elzey, I thought of Iain Campbell. What an angel of light he was seen as — until his longstanding sexual sin became exposed.
Mark Jones’s article “When a Pastor Falls, addressed only the situations when pastors commit sexual immorality.
There are many other ways in which pastors can fall. Some pastors do not commit sexual immorality but have fallen in other ways. For example, while holding the office of pastor they can be guilty of bullying, arrogance, greed, slander, reviling and oppressing their congregants and other vulnerable people. While they are pastors they can be committing domestic abuse and coercive control. While they are pastors they can be committing financial misconduct, fraud, deception, and lying for their own gain or to protect their reputation. They can be addicted to substances — alcohol or other drugs. They can be committing kidnapping, false imprisonment and human trafficking. They may be committing murder — literally — or spiritually murdering souls. They may be teaching doctrines which spiritually entrap victims of abuse into staying with their abusers, and laying false guilt on victims of abuse.
Mark Jones’s article talked about ‘pastors falling’ as if all those other things that pastors have done (and may be still doing) are of lesser importance than sexual immorality, or as if it has never happened that pastors have done those other things.
What a great comment, Eyewitness. You drew those analogies really well!
Yes.
All sins deserve the wrath of God. But some sins are more heinous in the sight of God than others. The Westminster Larger Catechism sets forth a list of things which might make a sin more heinous.
I’ve written about it here:
https://cryingoutforjustice.blog/2015/01/21/are-all-sins-equally-bad-are-all-transgressions-of-the-law-equally-heinous/
Barbara Roberts,
Thank you, Barbara. I look forward to a good read at teatime. I’ve read similar things and this one looks great. Timely for a conversation I’m having with someone else.
My application of busybody to Lisa was my abstruse way of throwing her own beliefs about women back at her. Some of the worst busybodies I know are men.
Barbara Roberts,
It seems like some people are so afraid of perfectionism they forget progressive sanctification.
Well, back to work.
That didn’t happen, and it would not have. Such groups have some autonomy in that congregation. The autonomy worked well: young mothers decided they had more wholesome things to do with their time (duh), and left the group. Her family later left the state.
My point is that to tell someone their spirituality is “wrong” and “better yet, read your bible” is not helpful or respectful.
I have cousin who had a testicle removed due to cancer. Is he excluded from God’s assembly?
The bible says a lot of stuff that doesn’t make sense, a lot of brutal, nasty stuff.
I believe that this is reflective of the time and culture that it came out of.
Let’s say that god exists and the divine interacted with the mundane. Would it be inspired? Maybe. Would it garbled through the lenses of time, space and translation, almost certainly – much like the game of telephone.
The English language and most of the others didn’t exist, concepts like a constitutional elected government run by commoners would have been anathema to those of even the recent past.
We aren’t the people of the bible and biblical literalists keep trying to ram a bronze age peg into a post modern hole.
We are different, our society is different and again bringing god into the equation, and believing that our hands are its conduits, are not all the good things we have created in science, art and thought from him/her/it?
Why should you repent when You Can Do No Wrong?
Never underestimate the Arrogance and Entitlement of GOD’s Special Pets.
The dogma of Instantaneous Total Sanctification when you Say the Words at the Altar Call does NOT Help.
It leads to Pretending to be Perfect and Godly 24/7/365 (like all the other Saved) until you’re psychotically detached from reality.
In More-Islamic-than-Mohammed cultures, it’s often the women who are at the forefront in Honor Killings and FGM.
“For Satan himself can transform himself to appear as an Angel of Light.”
— Some Rabbi from Tarsus
It’s called “How to Game the System”.
More like “The ISLAMIZING Calvin”.
With himself as Supreme Mullah (if not Caliph, or even the Prophet himself).
How much distance is there between “That could easily be me. God be merciful to me” and “But Everybody’s Doing It!” or “Because I Wanna!”?
Especially when it comes to those Urrges (not necessarily in the Arreas) that cannot be disobeyed?
Coming right out of Left Field.
WAS SHE FAKING TOURETTE’S OR SOMETHING?
(I hear that’s very popular on Tik Tok these days, and the REAL Tourette’s types do NOT like it.)
My Dear Wormwood,
I refer you to my previous epistle on Semantics, specifically our redefinition of the Enemy’s words into their “diabolical meanings”.
Your Ravenously Affectionate Uncle
Screwtape
P.S. Nowhere do we corrupt so effectively as at the foot of the Enemy’s altar!
Depends on what Spirit you’re walking in, doesn’t it?
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Her, uh, mantra was incoherent and weirdly telling. It comes from Hosea 2, which I won’t quote in full because the pugs would faint. In the chapter, a mother ran around and worshiped idols, so SHE will be hedged in.
Our group leader was asking God to protect our babies and preschoolers, but Hosea 2 mom’s children were less than legitimate.
If God were literal minded, he would have protected our children against us young mothers.
5 For their mother has played the _____;
she who conceived them has acted shamefully.
For she said, ‘I will go after my lovers;
they give me my bread and my water,
my wool and my flax, my oil and my drink.’
6 Therefore I will hedge her way with thorns;
and I will build a wall against her,
so that she cannot find her paths.
7 She shall pursue her lovers,
but not overtake them;
and she shall seek them,
but shall not find them.
Then she shall say, ‘I will go
and return to my first husband,
for it was better with me then than now.’
8 She did not know
that it was I who gave her
the grain, the wine, and the oil,
and who lavished upon her silver
and gold that they used for Baal.
I used to watch the Four on Floor with the Frantics back in the 80’s on CBC. Tai Kwon Leap – boot to the head!
Ahead of their time, a few years later the same humour was employed by Kids in the Hall.
Friend,
Were it not so sad, it would be funny. Kind of beyond the pale. Thank you for sharing.
Ker,
Enforcers can misuse any passage, but I’d far rather be a Proverbs 31 woman than a Hosea 2 woman.
My apologies….I’ve not yet read the rest of the comments, so someone might’ve already written this…. 🙂
….and they’re not bots (as in not “bots by Jesus”….as in bought) by Jesus. 🙂 At least, they don’t sound like it.
Church bots. Bought by the “church”. 🙂
No offence to you intended, linda 🙂 ….I just couldn’t resist adding this. 🙂
What if the length of the crappie that was caught was below the legal length? 🙂
(I don’t know about crappie, but I know in some places some fish must be of a minimum length to be considered legal….and reporting those illegal catches would NOT be breaking the ninth commandment, and is considered a good thing to do.)
That. And not well-constructed.
I throw them back in the water even if the measurement is right on the line … no use risking a $200 fine if the game warden’s ruler is wrong.
Dear Wartburgers,
You fought the good fight in 2023.
“The LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine upon you, And be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon you, And give you peace.” (Numbers 6:24-26)
MERRY CHRISTMAS!
See you next year!
Max,
Wonderful comment! Merry Christmas to you and yours, Max, and to all Wartburgers.
TOO MUCH information, you sound like my old pastor (I have concluded you must be a pastor by trade).
Friend,
Eek! You’ve just reminded me that when I left this sort of situation I joined something worse!
Like perpetuating bad church that other people started. My several dozen years playing along are a feather in my cap! I had staying power!
Good way of putting it.
He was so behind the curve, He didn’t know about the daring tunic hemline look.
Jack,
“…bringing god into the equation, and believing that our hands are its conduits, are not all the good things we have created in science, art and thought from him/her/it?”
+++++++++
yes and amen. which doesn’t say it strongly enough.
(i love this tangent)
as i see it, God, as ultimate creative & creating source, is very much involved in artistic creation, mechanical creation, etc., exploration, calculation, deductive reasoning, problem-solving,…
and if God is real, then seems to me God is available upon the asking to add a supernatural turbocharge element to those processes.
towards generating solutions to world problems like hunger, poverty, disease, pollution, inequity, and creating hope, peace, understanding, courage and conviction through art. (these are partial lists)
i think it’s a grave mistake, so short-sighted, and self-centered for churches to focus on keeping all the energy and resources in-house, on ‘ministry’ (functionally defined as what serves the church).
Jack,
elastigirl,
I agree with you both and always appreciate your thoughtful comments.
Max,
And you have encouraged us all. More to come in 2024!!
Powerful prayer for today. Peace for a war torn world. God bless. Thx, Max. And God be praised.
“Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus” (Philippians 3:13-14)
Barbara Roberts,
Good comment. 🙂
That. 🙂
And I’ve been really enjoying reading and learning from all the comments on Dee’s and Todd’s posts. 🙂 As well as their posts. 🙂
And so many times I’d like to comment….sometimes someone (or more than one someone) has said something better than I could. Sometimes I don’t want to sound like an “echo chamber”. And sometimes I can’t find the right words to say in reply to someone….or I’m afraid it’ll seem like I’m singling out one person over another for something positive.
I just wanted — even though I’ve not finished reading all the comments on this post — to make sure that I said Merry Christmas to everyone BEFORE Christmas. 🙂
And for several years after my time in-country (in the Dispensation of Hal Lindsay and Jack Chick), the only way I could create was to push God completely out of the picture. That should tell you something about how churches often handle creatives.
As if since “GAWD IS THE CRE! A! TOR!”, nobody else can be permitted to be.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
yes, i think i’ve done similar.
that the institution kills art in a panic spraying a can of pesticide until it’s dead is sort of proof that God in some way looks at the institution and says, ‘good grief, i’m going over here where the artists are.’
art happens. God is the buzz inspiring even the weirdest and edgiest and most uncomfortable art.
Reminds me of a comment on an old Internet Monk posting.
I’m normally very skeptical of Private Revelations, but this one kinda stood out (in a good way).
The subject of the thread was Christian Counterfeits of Arts and Media in the Christianese Holy Bubble, and the comment was that the Christians had screwed up their Christian Fiction, Art, Movies, Music, etc so bad that God was removing His mantle from them and putting it on the SECULAR artists and media. (“Mene, Mene, Tekel, Uparshim.”) Henceforth secular art media would begin to say what God wanted said.
IMHO, secular indicates devoid of God, from a philosophical POV. Canadian Charles Taylor lays this out in his tome, “A Secular Age.”
John Lennox points out that he was raised in the faith of the Christian God but nonsectarian. Both “Christian” sects in his country were at war. His parents sided with neither. The family business was bombed.
IMHO, God speaks to and through whomever will listen. This results in many incredible surprises, like Rahab, for example. Perhaps Oskar Schindler, more recently.
As artists, DC Talk was prohibited from performing in churches: “We’re not having Dance Hall music in our church,” the elders said. So the Christian rock group filled mega public venues like stadiums, instead of megachurches, back in the day.
God goes where He is invited, and where He is present becomes a sacred place.
In places where the power hungry, profiteers, predators and perverts reign, God is clearly absent. No matter what they call those places, no matter what name, label, or brand they go by: Lutheran, Baptist, kirk, Desiring God, Fundamental, Conservative, Liberal, Compassionate, Evangelical, House of Prayer, etc.
And the innocent trapped there can expect no help from god which makes it more imperative that we humans act.
It make sense actually. God only goes where he’s invited, kind of like a vampire.
I think if we assume that god is off the table except where those who praise him live then we’re going down some dark roads.
The prayers of those burned in the churches of Rwanda mean nothing because God can’t help them, but he was invited to the wedding in Cana so it was free wobbly pops.
I don’t know how it’s supposed to work, god doesn’t speak to me but I’m guessing it’s more complex than the black and white division of secular and non secular.
PCA folk have never liked women. Great for romps. Just say goodbye, kick the dust off your shoes, and walk away. Make it easy on yourselves.
Cynical?
“Where is Almighty God when those created in His image suffer through no fault of their own?” is the Big Question, eh? Complex. Serious. Sobering.
Dr. John Lennox has a number of YouTube videos addressing this Big Q with compassion, intelligence, and meaningfulness. Helpful, perhaps, but definitely without cynicism.
senecagriggs,
Too. Much. Information.
Leading astray by example (and boasting about it), do you do so from the front or the rear?
Is it any wonder?
In the Bible there is no such thing as The Rights of Man (Thomas Paine).
The Creeds, Catechism, are all based on authoritarianism.
Even Luther exhorted the Princes to slaughter those peasants who dared to try and better their lot.
The “beauty of complementarity” is an ugly thing.
Kinda like the kirk dude expounding on the “beauty of slavery.”
Kirkuglykristianity.
Counterfeit money circulates but we still have real money. The counterfeit is absolutely worthless except for the producers. It’s worthless, a sham, a scam, and morally corrupt. Fake.
Even Ken Burns’ “The Civil War” exposes the deadly evils of slavery, sans politics.
Regarding complementarianism, public Court records of domestic violence expose the evils of subjugating women. Again, sans politics.
These are human rights, not political, issues that should unite Chirstians.
Who, what, when, and where?
Whoever it was, they’d probably expound on the ‘Jewish’ question too.
The only way to know if faith is counterfeit is to know what the genuine looks like. Unfortunately, there’s been so much counterfeit circulating through the church, we’ve lost track of the genuine. In that atmosphere, counterfeit ministers and ministries have a heyday. We read about them everyday on TWW.
“Southern Slavery: As It Was”, published by Canon Press and sold on Amazon.
Ava Aaronson,
Thanx Ava, I’ll give it a look see.
That also holds in the physical realm.
Example one of my pet peeves: The below-the-bottom of the barrel quality of Christian fiction, movies, and art. I call them “Christian Counterfeits” of the real things they knock off. And a possible way to pull the younglings out of such a stifling faith. Get them involved in the real thing and they won’t settle for the Christianese Counterfeit.
The “who” is REVEREND Penetrate/Colonize/Conquer/Plant Wilson, i.e. the Jerk With his Kirk (and his pet pedos) who’s been trying to take over Moscow, Idaho like the Rajneesh tried to take over Antelope, Oregon and Bethel (of grave-soaking fame) is taking over Redding, California.
Unless it is free (wherein the audience or lack thereof can simply indicate, “No, thank you” and the performers go away), it’s a money grab. We’re supposed to $upport the amateur Christian arts as Christian duty, we’re told.
A walk in the woods can be truly free, enjoying God’s handiwork of Creation.
Jesus threw the Christian money makers out of the Temple right at the beginning of His ministry.
What’s really mind-messing is that these people truly believe that this is what the Bible ‘teaches’.
Muff Potter,
Luther: the Wartburg was after all a state-provided refuge.
Catechisms: I agree.
For the rest: it reads like you filtered out meanings through the coffee-filter of the fundamentalists, who detest all meaning in human beings. I recommend true and not official “private interpretation”.
Paul’s comments on what we construe as church order probably referred to joint sessions with synagogue members. Also, letters were read en route by non-addressees so they would be decoded in that light.
Muff Potter,
I understand you now. It’s the template, paradigm, or lens of these people we should utterly discard, whether we are agnostics or not.
In any case the public should be wary of subscribing to continual “downloads”.
And avoid Grudem Bibles because he actually did alter Scripture in Gen 3:16. Her desire shall be towards, i.e for him. It means don’t treat anybody’s boundaries lightly!
Also note Jesus at age 12 did ask questions as well as responding further to the theologians’ answers. Trainees were examined in their astuteness at knowing what to test the experts on. (I’m sure He made return visits.)
And “submit” meant nothing more creepy than do a rather un-Roman thing, actually relate and converse (Roman couples weren’t supposed to at all).
That reminds me of one of the phone-ins to the Eighties radio talk show Talk From the Heart, about some new mother the phone-in knew who was starving her infant in some sort of post-partum “Anorexia by Proxy”:
“She won’t feed the baby anything but water because she says he ‘looks too fat’. I told my friends at church about her, but they all told me to ‘Pray about it and Trust The LORD’.”
And host Rich Buhler told her in no uncertain terms to bring the (secular) authorities in on it before the baby dies.
“And you’ll only drink milk
If it comes from a CHRISTIAN cow –
“Don’t spend your hard-earned bread
Keeping those Heathens well-fed;
Line CHRISTIAN pockets instead!”
— Steve Taylor, “Guilty by Association”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MN5_QnCrnmU
P.S. I coined the term “Christian Counterfeits” because I’ve seen the real thing – and remember all those sermons ranting about “Satanic Counterfeits”.
Much of the organized church is built on a foundation of counterfeit belief and practice (the theologies of mere men). It’s tough for folks to weave through the religious maze in search of the genuine. It would be best to look for it through prayer and personal Bible study, with the Holy Spirit as guide – who alone will lead us to Truth.
Sadly, that’s how most evangelicals operate.
oasisfortheabused.wordpress.com
Stuart Townsend read his poems to a bunch I was with many years ago. It was an afterthought socialising after a service, he carried a few booklets with him and earned pennies (printing costs) if we wanted one (and they were good).
I sang in a Jimmy & Carol Owens musical at a church years ago, then in a Roger Jones one at a church. I think our hosts’ costs were covered, just about (we paid for our own rehearsal space hire and travel cost to venue).
A person who had composed passable songs that another of my groups used launched an orchestral work which however was useless, and we were pressured to buy CDs of it in aid of missions which I didn’t.
In good cases I knew, we were about the specific personal benefit to an audience at each time, not about “arts” (and Stuart and Roger knew how to navigate what milieu they wanted, honestly).
Through my parents’ friends I was around secular concerts and paintings, well enjoyable, at little more than cost-covering level or less, which could be enjoyed by people of any sect or none.
Some people christian or agnostic, produce good materials and sell them for a good cause or to cover costs, you can buy it if you like because it’s good, not because it was promoted at your denomination.
A painting (on a block of wood) that I bought after a church service isn’t overtly religious, it’s two boats in a choppy sea viewed from behind, I’m not sure what “cause” it was in or who painted it.
I almost sought to audition for support act at one of the pre-alpha gigs (at Sir Wetherspoon’s) reeling off my many melancholy church and religion jokes which are too strong to offer on Dee’s blog.
On this side of the Atlantic, you’d have to buy it to prove you were really Saved.
A litmus test of your Salvation.
“Oh, you used to like reading Ursula LeGuin, but now you have to read Left Behind and the like because you’re Christian.” — Internet Monk, “Selling Jesus by the Pound”
“And they’ll know we are CHRISTIANS
By our hate, by our hate,
Yes they’ll KNOW we are CHRISTIANS by our Hate…”
BEWARE THOU OF THE MUTANT.
— John Wyndham, “The Chrysalids”
Very important indeed, utterly excellent book
My favourite school text
For what it’s worth, Karen and I were excommunicated months ago, not years. We were fired from our ministry positions just before Easter 2023, received letters threatening excommunication when we didn’t repent, and then finally excommunicated (which is what it was, no matter what they choose to call it) in October 2023.
For anyone who’s interested, I’ve just started a blog where I intend to tell our story (it may take quite a few posts) and share my thoughts about the experience:
https://davidwaltontransparent.wordpress.com/