Consider this post to be an extension of my post from last Friday. I had more information that I wanted to share, but I thought Friday’s post was long enough!
Friday’s post had a few comments about John Folmar’s experience level when he went to Dubai. The audio clip below was taken from an interview of John Folmar by David Helm and Jeremy Meeks on a podcast called “Preachers Talk.” The podcast is sponsored by 9 Marks and can be found on the 9Marks website. (Screen capture above.)
In this short audio, Folmar admits he was inexperienced when he arrived in Dubai in 2005. He mentions that UCCD was a thriving “International Church.” By thriving, he was not referring to their spiritual condition. He speaks in glowing terms of both Mark Dever and Thomas Schreiner. Dever was/is Folmar’s mentor so John places high value on anything Dever tells him. Folmar had spoken to Dever about C.J. Mahaney and Dever assured him that there was nothing to the charges made against Mahaney. He said the same to Mack Stiles. Stiles is another devoted follower of Dever, as you will hear from his own lips later in this post. By the way, Mark Dever and Thomas Schreiner preached at Mahaney’s run-away church plant in a show of support for C.J. Mahaney. You can see that in my blog titled “Hall of Shame.” It amazes me that so many of the Evangelical Christian celebrities demonstrated a total lack of discernment when it came to supporting a fellow member of their boy’s club, though it must be said that many of them undoubtedly supported Mahaney simply because he was their friend and fellow celebrity club member. Which is worse? IMO, blind loyalty and willful ignoring of factual, verifiable data.
Above we heard from the 9Marks-sponsored podcast, “Preachers Talk.” Below is a page on the 9Marks website which features “Missions Talk.” (Also sponsored by 9Marks.)
Here is an audio clip from the podcast in which Mark Dever and Mack Stiles comment on how they met and their friendship.
In this podcast, Dever and Leeman speak with Mack Stiles and Ryan Robertson. The overriding message appears to be that if you want to be a successful missionary and have a successful church your doctrine must align with Dever’s “9 Marks of a Healthy Church.” As you can see in Mack Stile’s bio above, he is now the Director of Messenger Ministries, Inc., “a think tank working to develop healthy missions.”
Well, how much effort does Stiles have to put into his “think tank?” If you listen to the podcast above, all the thinking has been done for you. Simply become a 9Marxist in your doctrine and then establish a 9Marx church! I don’t know how many “thinkers” are in Stile’s think tank, but in my research, I could not find the names of any other thinkers in Stiles’s think tank! The only thing I did find were the names of four others on the Board of Messenger Ministries, Inc.
The information below is taken from Mission Ministries Inc.’s 990 IRS form for 2021.
I don’t know who Ted Callahan is, but if you go to Friday’s post you will find him prominently mentioned in the Acknowledgment section of a book Stiles authored. David Lawrence is a long-time friend of Stiles. They both attended UCCD, then they both went to the Redeemer Church of Dubai plant. From there Stiles went to pastor a church in Erbil, Iraq. Lawrence went with him. Stiles pastored the church for about 2 years and then returned to the United States. I believe David Lawrence became the pastor and remained there for another two years. John Lovett is an attorney and is a member and elder of Third Avenue Baptist church. Tristin Stiles is Mack’s son. Tristen is also a member and elder at Third Avenue Baptist.
You will notice that Mack Stiles received a salary of $96,154 in 2021. In 2022 Mack Stile’s salary was increased by about $13,000 to $109,615. Not a bad raise. Who says there isn’t money to be made in the Christian Industrial Complex?
While Tristen Stiles doesn’t receive a salary from the Missionary Message Inc. think tank, he does receive a tax benefit. His house just happens to be listed as the office of Mack’s think tank.
While it’s impossible to know the monetary value of listing the office of Missionary Ministries Inc. at Tristin Stiles’s home, below is a document from the IRS that gives you a good idea of what you can deduct.
Another interesting item I found in Missionary Ministries Inc. IRS 990 form for the year 2022 is the fact that the think tank donated $50,000 to 9Marks! The interesting thing about this is that the think tank only took in slightly more than $50,000 in 2022.
I would really like to know who donated all the money in 2020 and 2021 to Missionary Messengers Inc. I have a hunch some may have come from 9Marks. Unfortunately, 9Marks doesn’t file a 990 because they claim they are a church. The tax laws need to be changed because more and more wealthy para-church organizations are using this loophole to keep their salaries away from the public.
As you can see below, Mack Stiles is a regular speaker at the Cross-Con. It would also be nice to know how much he is paid for his one-hour talks each year.
Thank you for this informative and well-researched, as always, post.
As you know, some missionaries don’t have a church, a successful church, or deal with having a successful 9 Marks church if they are serving in an area where churches are forbidden. They are at least ‘free’ in that regard.
Is White at Cedarville still all about the SBC, or has he broken ties? I remain very unsettled about his uppity and seemingly fake presence there. I recall you are, too. When I was there, the president lived a few doors away from our apartment building in a three bedroom brick ranch house on a quiet street. Not a mansion like White has.
From the main article up-top:
The tax laws need to be changed because more and more wealthy para-church organizations are using this loophole to keep their salaries away from the public.
You ain’t just a whistlin’ dixie they (tax laws) need to be changed.
Big religion (fundagelicalism), is one of the biggest legal rackets there is.
There was a time when their (churches) exemptions were reasonable; that time is long past.
I believe White is still all about the SBC. I can’t stomach White. Not sure if you knew this, but after the Anthony Moore scandal White was removed from the Council of the “Men are better than Women Club,” more commonly known as CBMW. His wife remained a member. Not sure when he was restored to the Council, but it seems like it was at least a year ago.
https://cbmw.org/about/council/
That shows you how hypocritical the CBMW is.
Have you seen my video on the White mansion? https://youtu.be/lpVjmVq3CK8?si=vmFv97yqIDTYrFrS
White was mentored by Paige Patterson, who was also having a mansion built for himself and Dorothy on the SWBTS campus, but I think he was fired prior to completion. (As White should have been.)
I agree, Muff. I’m in favor of revoking the 501c3 status of all churches. And don’t even get me started on all those anti-government churches that gobbled up the taxpayer’s money in the form of PPP “loans.”
This probably wasn’t intentional, but “Cross Con” just sounds too much like the original meaning of the word “con” and not at all like an abbreviation for “convention.”
Todd Wilhelm,
They should be imprisoned if they don’t file their 990s.
Many of the para-church organizations don’t have to file a 990. I don’t know the technicalities of the tax laws, but I believe they can claim to be a church.
Todd Wilhelm,
Thanks! I will look at the links.
Jesus said “In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.” (John 14)
There are lots of Christian celebrities who just don’t want to wait for the place Jesus is preparing for believers. They want glory now!
They have their reward…
And just think (although we are not suppose to think “under these clowns”), they claim they have all this authority over us, and they have the “keys”…. eye roll.
I still can not get my head around how Dever will not give communion to shut ins.. or elderly that can not leave their care facility….. it judy makes my blood boil….
P.S.. I have observed, first hand a number of people in nursing care that are slowly losing there “thinking processes”…. if some of these people spent their life in the church, I can imagine that the act of communion could be a real confort to some of them that still have a “little memory” of church life left…
Devers policy has to be one of the “meanist” of “Christian preacher” that I have ever heard of……
Jeffrey J Chalmers,
It’s a bit reminiscent of Jesus calling out the practice of Corban in Mark 7, isn’t it?
It pi$$es me off too.
And, it raises a pointed question:
How do men like Dever hold so much power over so many?
Jesus had words for men like Dever:
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
It should be clear by now that the New Calvinists have some of the meanest church leaders on the planet, with 9Marksists being the worst of all. They just don’t minister to folks as they ought … love is not on their 9Marks list for a “healthy” church. I, for one, will be glad when the NeoCal movement fades into obscurity. And all SBC members who are shut ins and nursing home patients shout “AMEN!”
Well, it’s not by the authority of Jesus – that’s for sure!
H Mack Stiles popped up in the Uk in a webinar with EuropeanMission in December 2022. You can hear his advice here – https://www.europeanmission.org/webinars/evangelising-in-a-secular-age
Are the 9Marxists shepherds or sheep dogs? You decide based on the following comparison:
“Shepherd:
– Love and grace-based relationship to sheep
– Leads by going ahead of the sheep
– Guides sheep with his staff
– The sheep know the shepherd’s voice and tone
– Shepherd is committed as fellow-shepherd with the Chief Shepherd
Sheepdog:
– Sheep have a fear-based relationship to the sheepdog
– Drives or pushes the sheep from behind
– Nips at the heels of the sheep and runs from side to side to handle them
– Barks and growls at the sheep”
https://medium.com/@tkbeyond/be-a-shepherd-not-a-sheepdog-de515747233b
Businessmen?
So whatever is good for business is what goes on.
Muff Potter,
Great question…
I agree on this and don’t get me started on the PPP loans either!
Lowlandseer,
Dubai and Irbil won’t have told him enough about Europe. He is into church reform. He also claims calvin-ism doesn’t stop mission. But mission and reform have got to support full christian life. To that mentality, are lifelong believers anywhere other than Louisville ontologically dark? Especially if they have got a handle on recent church history?
(The same questions exactly, are current in a far larger entity also.)
I can see very well Rev Stiles was a good man until he was placed out of his depth so I see why you have mostly had such esteem for him.
(What a stupid word “calvin” is. The devil isn’t afraid of “calvin”!
Heidelberg and Dordt were political fudges in an emergency. Calvin himself was at the top of the pyramid.
Muscular christianity and body theology / gender theology are works of the flesh which were presented as a political fix.)
By centralising relating, modern day presbyterianism has been made to sabotage christian life: don’t e-mail or visit N who paraphrases the weekly Bible quiz to bring out meanings.
People who operate a presbyterian system inside the church ought to at least belong to an outside presbytery with rules, whatever the calibre of these and their application may sometimes be.
In England, besides IPC and EPC (both with few churches) (the stance of both of which I know little about) we have the old fashioned URC (which I don’t know much about either).
The couple in Canada whom RZ hurt had previously been cheated by a pastor, whom they got their presbytery to decide to dismiss in application of its own rules. (This was on their international record subsequently.)
New Frontiers have an informal “presbytery” that changes its ideas as it goes along. The Roman system is similar to New Frontiers: trustees with international ties that it’s “nice” to be sentimental about, and clingy / pushy movements / individuals ensuring that the gifts of the patient majority don’t bear much fruit, with occasional good eggs repairing part of the damage. In the C of E and not only its Church Society, Vineyard and Brompton branches, the same is the case.
There will always be such churches and the secret weapon of supplication needs to be reintroduced under the bosses’ radar, and casualness combatted.
In all denominations, the problem is not charismatism which God will providentially put on the rails IF elders don’t interfere in the lives of well wishers. The problem is a controlling mentality as if we are all 3 years old except the elders who are 4.
My current challenge is to stay put and calm long enough to strengthen joiners less than half my age, and the occasional church officer whose family turn out to be suffering in any way.
The problem with “reform” is that it is an infinite regress, and rules have to be overruled by the dominant mindset that wants to rule over them and not be ruled by them. A system of trumping the trumps, with us at the bottom of the pack and not knowing whom to look to this week.
Todd Wilhelm,
Some real churches are evidently genuine nonprofits and would surely be willing to file a 990 in order to stay 501(c)3 in good odour; no matter what any of the cheapskates get up to.
(Very proud of myself for knowing some of the American jargon 😉 )
Michael in UK,
I mean “amended 501(c)3” in order to require a 990.
“What options are there? If you’re a theologically minded, deeply convictional young evangelical, if you’re committed to the gospel and you want to see the nations rejoice in the name of Christ, if you want to see gospel-built and structured and committed churches, your theology is just gonna end up basically being Reformed, basically being something like this New Calvinism or you’re gonna have to invent some other label for what’s just gonna be the same thing. There just are not options out there. And that’s something that I think frustrates some people. But when I am asked about the New Calvinism, I will say just basically, where else are they gonna go? Who else is gonna answer the questions? Where else will they find the resources they need? And where else are they gonna connect? This is a generation that understands, they want to say the same thing Paul said. They want to stand with the Apostles. They want to stand with old, dead people. And they know they are going to have to if they are going to preach and teach the truth.” (Al Mohler, Pope of Louisville)
It’s what makes the Christian Industrial Complex spin. There’s profit, prestige and power in the Jesus racket. Merchandising the gospel with cheap grace is the theme of the day. Christian celebrities abound … all you need to be successful in this religious game is a gift of gab, touch of charisma, and bag of gimmicks. Hurry, hurry, hurry to the greatest show on earth!
Jesus wept.
Jesus washed the disciples feet and told the disciples to serve likewise. (John 13:14 – 17) But going to an assisted living facility or someone’s home to serve them communion is not the same. So glad I had this mansplained to me by Dever. Actually what I am truly glad of is that I own a Bible and can read it for myself.
If church folks drawn into the NeoCal snare actually did that, there would be no New Calvinism movement! Cults exist because folks don’t read Scripture personally or pray as they ought.
Hi Michael
That’s why I was surprised to see him give the webinar. I don’t know anything about Mr Stiles but I’ve always been interested in European Missions and know how difficult their work is. I don’t think Calvinism hinders mission work and church reform depends on what it’s being reformed from/into.
?? It’s the man’s name.
Heidelberg wasn’t a political fudge,it was more about Elector Frederick III trying to keep the peace between RCs , Lutherans, Anabaptists and Calvinists, in the aftermath of the Council of Trent and the Peace of Augsburg.
Presbyterianism is good – see George Gillespie’s “Aaron’s Rod Blossoming” or “Jus Divinum Regiminis Ecclesiastici or The Divine Right of Church Government” by London (Puritan Presbyterian )ministers in 1646, 1647, 1654
I know a bit about the IPC and its beginnings with Francis Schaeffer and its current Korean dominance. I know nothing about the EPC. We used to run outreach programmes with the URC and other denominations. New Frontiers has been discredited in recent years.
Commenting on Ezekiel 1:3 (The hand of the Lord was there upon me), William Greenhill says that “it denoteth the virtue and power of the Spirit of God which came upon the prophet, not shaking, disturbing, and throwing of him down…but changing, comforting, elevating, and exciting the spirit of the prophet to see divine mysteries and denoting also, that efficacy and power which set on the word upon the heart and conscience of the prophet; that power which subdued all opposition and carnal reasonings, and removed all impediments, whatsoever stuck upon the heart of the prophet, and hindered him in that work which God would have him undertake. It is this hand of the Lord that makes the word mighty, spiritual, lively, according to tha in Hebrews 4:12. The prophet felt the intrinsically virtue of this hand, the Spirit of God in his own heart; it was a quick and lively word into him.”
That’s what’s missing in the lives of preacher and people alike. And it is interesting, in that regard, that B B Warfield described Calvin as “pre-eminently the theologian of the Holy Spirit”.
Max,
Max, I keep coming back to this little “message” also…. Deep down, I really wonder if Pope Al believes it…. The longer I live, the more I recognize my limits on understanding things…. And I know enough to know that I would never claim I it “all together” like he does in this “message”….. sigh…
Max,
I think that the NeoCal’s are driving people away. You have all these rules like covenant memberships etc and they have gotten away from the simplicity of the gospel. I don’t like heavy handed leadership, I don’t like elder led church government because as we have seen from this blog is that most elders are yes men. At my church, they bring the issues , we discuss it and then vote , most often by ballot and we often get no’s. Then there are so serious problems with reformed theology if you really examine it. If I was the pastor of a church, I would do everything in my power to help my parishioners fall in love with Jesus with minimal rules. I really believe if you can accomplish that then most church problems won’t happen or be resolved. To these reformed pastors, be gentle and sweet and have a servant mentality leadership skill set.
Just remember:
Who needs Christ when you have CALVIN?
CALVIN who alone Has God All Figured Out.
Congregational governance, rather than elder-rule polity, is the truest Biblical form of church government, IMO. The New Calvinists want to control everything in SBC life so they takeover traditional (non-Calvinist) churches by stealth and deception (they lie to pastor search committees about their theological leaning). Congregational governance is the first thing to go as it’s replaced by hand-picked yes-men elders and an authoritarian pastor who demands that the pew follow their lead. For the life of me, I don’t understand why Southern Baptists are putting up with this nonsense.
Oh yeah, he bought the lie decades ago … his Mohlerites have spread the error throughout SBC. He won’t give it up now even if Jesus appeared to him and told him to stop. Pope Al walks on dangerous ground.
In order for a parachurch ministry to avoid the Form 990 requirement, it must pass the “internal support” test. It cannot receive over 50% of its support from outside the church. Here is a blurb from the 9 Marks website:
How is 9Marks funded?
9Marks depends on the donations of churches and individuals who understand the strategic nature of equipping pastors and leaders with a biblical vision of the local church, and will commit to it. We are grateful for the generosity of all our supporters.
I asked Jonathan Leeman if the ministry received over one-half of its support from CHBC. He told me it did not. Therefore, it is my opinion that a Form 990 is required.
That can also go sour, Max.
Like when you get one individual whose five-figure tithes keep the church afloat.
Or the unofficial “gatekeepers” or Church Ladies who really run the church.
Both of who look upon the pastor as THEIR personal property who has to stay in line and do their bidding or else.
“You’re here to Keep Us Comfortable. We can always find another pastor who’ll work cheaper!”
You still used the European/Commonwealth spelling of “odor”.
We’ve been over this ground before:
So long as the pot-lucks and the social events calendar isn’t messed with, they don’t give a god-dang who’s in the pulpit or what they prattle on about.
Muff Potter,
The same is true in my own liturgical based tradition (Lutheranism).
Coffee and donuts with great people is the high point of Church service on Sunday mornings for me. I think that we’re social beings, across all cultures, peoples, and creeds.
Yep, in the absence of anything Spiritual going on at church, might as well enjoy the snacks and fellowship! During my 70 year tenure as a Southern Baptist, I long-suffered through several spiritless sermons on Sunday morning waiting for the service to end so I could grab one of Sister Smith’s yeast rolls at the potluck meal.
I don’t think so. In his exposition of “I believe in the Holy Spirit in the Apostles’ Creed, he says –
“ I believe in the Holy Spirit
20. Here we confess that we believe in the Holy Spirit, but that He is with the Father and the Son, the third person of the most holy Trinity, consubstantial and co-eternal with the Father and the Son, almighty, and Creator of all things. For there are three distinct persons, but one esssence, as has been said. As these are deep and hidden mysteries, they ought rather to be adored than investigated, inasmuch as neither our intelligence nor our tongue—by nature or capacity—ought, or is able, to encompass these mysteries”
Again, in the 1541 French edition of the Institutes, he writes –
“The secrets of His will which He thought good to communicate to us He has witnessed to us in His word. Now He thought it good to communicate to us all that He saw to pertain to us and be profitable for us. If this reflection once has a place in us: that God’s word is the unique way to lead us to seek all that it is lawful for us to know about Him, and the only light to illumine us to contemplate all that is lawful to see about Him, that will easily hold us in check and make us withdraw from all rashness. For we know that when we go beyond the limits of scripture we walk outside the path and in darkness, and that is the reason we cannot do so without erring, stumbling, and bumping into things at every step.”
He doesn’t go beyond the given Word.
This is how Benny Hinn avoided filing, he claimed a “church” in Grapevine (where he rented a warehouse to store his literature) but never had any “services” there.
Lowlandseer,
Mr Calvin doesnt go as far as the written Word. The Holy Trinity are modelling space for the other other, that’s orphans and widows, ordinary people, to trade gifts. My God isn’t a mystifier / Barthian / fundie. Even ontologists have noticed that three manifests archetypal plurality of individuals (one and two being merely attenuated).
Headless Unicorn Guy,
“Dash it”, as my late dad would say.
Dale Rudiger,
Thank you, v. informative.
Yes; they have exactly the same problem as the Romans.
In the matter of FIII this explains why such a lot got left out of the “confessions” or “catechisms”, Dordt similarly.
I’ll check Gillespie, Greenhill & Warfield.
It’s noticeable that C Spurgeon (a Brit) stresses how God’s providence in what gets called “post salvation” affairs occurs when we pray for wisdom. I think that is what will attract Europeans, including British.
And who teaches the pew goers?
The people I picked up faith from in my childhood – and because as I was good at logical prioritising, that seemed to include some Romans – would have fitted the then style of “reformed” churches very well, but nowhere mean or pushy enough for the new replacements in all denominations where “assurance” isn’t allowed.
Only up to a point, among those who walked out into the arms of other identical outfits with a nominally different brand name, to discover belatedly that the same questions hang over it too.
(contd)
The Vineyard / Brompton / Church Society / Archbishops Council / etc branches of the C of E are the same as NF insofar as quashing the gifts is concerned; likewise the Vatican state affilated “movements”.
Parishioners and agnostic outsiders alike are ill equipped to discern quickly enough, since body theology, influencing and dominionism took over. Result: millions of mangled minds.
I see you are more into “tablet”. Do you think Dordt was a fudge?