“Compliance is another characteristic of abusive discipleship. Submission is equated with compliance with leaders; disagreement and dissent are rarely tolerated. Disciples who speak critically about leaders are frequently labeled as rebellious, divisive, factious, or slanderous. For you to be counted as a slanderer in an abusive discipleship, your words don’t have to mean anything false or malicious. In these groups, slander can mean anything negative that is said about the leadership. In a discipleship employing this kind of coercion, “factious” and “divisive” actually mean that your opinion differs from that of the leaders.”
-Chrnalogar, Mary Alice. Twisted Scriptures (p. 45). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.
John Folmar’s text to me:
I arrived in Dubai in January 2009. Within a few weeks of my arrival I started looking for a church to attend. The first church I visited was the United Christian Church of Dubai (UCCD), now called the Evangelical Christian Church of Dubai (ECCD). John Folmar is the pastor of the church. I was impressed with his preaching and decided I would look no further for a church home.
In 2009 I had not heard of Mark Dever, Capitol Hill Baptist Church, or the para-church organization 9Marks (led by Mark Dever). If I only knew then what I know now!
Folmar was very close to Mark Dever. Dever was instrumental in the conversion to Christianity of Folmar. Dever suggested to Folmar that he attend Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Upon graduation from the seminary Folmar joined the staff of Capitol Hill Baptist Church as an assistant pastor. After moving to Dubai Folmar talked regularly with Dever.
Mack Stiles was an elder at UCCD when I arrived. He had been attending UCCD for several years prior to Folmar’s arrival. Stiles was good friends with Mark Dever. Stiles was instrumental in getting Folmar to Dubai. Stiles spoke to Dever to see if there was anyone he could recommend for the UCCD vacant pastor position. Dever recommended Folmar. Prior to Folmar’s arrival, UCCD was not a 9Marks church.
When I was in Dubai the weekend throughout the United Arab Emirates was Friday and Saturday. (It has since been changed to Saturday and Sunday.) Church services were on Friday. I started attending a Friday Foundations (In the USA this would be called Sunday School) class taught by Mack Stiles. Those of us in the class indirectly received an acknowledgment from Stiles for helping him with his book. What we did was minimal. Stiles would read through a chapter he had just finished and ask us for constructive criticism. There was good participation by the class and a few good suggestions were made. Stiles would incorporate some suggestions into his book.
In 2010 UCCD sent out a church plant. Mack Stiles was one of the individuals that left UCCD to start Redeemer Church of Dubai. I was sad to see Mack go. He was a kind-hearted man and a gifted teacher.
In 2011, back stateside, the sexual abuse scandal within the Sovereign Grace denomination was made public. Instrumental in this was Brent Detwiler, the number 2 man in the organization prior to his resigning in 2009. He sent out 600 pages of documentation to all Sovereign Grace Pastors and one of the recipients leaked the documents to the public.
After the documents became public, there was bedlam within the denomination. In 2012 a class action lawsuit was filed against Sovereign Grace Ministries, listing C.J. Mahaney as one of the defendants. Ultimately, the lawsuit was dismissed due to statute of limitations. Mahaney resigned from his position as President of Sovereign Grace Ministries in 2013 took his bat and ball and headed to Louisville to start what I call “his runaway church plant.”
In an attempt to legitimatize his run-away church plant, Mahaney called upon many of his well-known friends to preach at his church in 2013-14. (You can see an article I wrote years ago on this parade of Christian celebrities here. ) Sadly, I found out that Mack Stiles was one of the guest preachers. I guess being a member of the Christian Celebrity Club means you always have the back of your fellow celebrities. And Mack was in debt to C.J. Mahaney for writing an endorsement for his book:
I wrote several emails to Mack letting him know what was happening with C.J. Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries as it related to the sexual abuse and coverups within the denomination. I met Mack for breakfast one morning to plead my case. Mack remained a rock-solid backer of C.J. Mahaney, refusing to believe me, in fact, he went to speak a second time at Mahaney’s run-away church plant on June 18, 2017.
Mack sent me an email 4 days after having spoken at Mahaney’s church for the second time. Out of respect for Mack I will not include most of what he wrote me, but I did want to include a paragraph that was very hurtful to me.
On Jun 22, 2017, at 5:52 PM, Mack Stiles <i.com> wrote:
Todd, may I be so bold as to say I honestly think the best thing for you, spiritually, is cease and desist. There is no way you can know all the truth from a faraway land, and if you are wrong you are in a very grievous place before the Lord; at best it seems creepy, at worst you would be making false accusations against a brother, and hurting the work of Christ. Paul essentially makes the same argument in Phil 1:8 about those who were out to sully his reputation – “But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice,”
Respectfully,
Mack Stiles
I agree with Mack when he wrote, “There is no way you can know all the truth.” Nobody can know all the truth, no matter where they reside. I responded to Mack to challenge some of his assertions.
I have told very few people about where I got my facts from, but I submit my source was better than any source that Mack believed, including C.J. Mahaney or Mark Dever.
My source? Brent Detwiler. I communicated with him often starting in 2011. He was always open and honest with me and backed up his claims with solid documentation.
Below is an email I sent to every 9Marks pastor in the UAE.
Saturday, February 16th, 2019 at 11:59 AM
To: J.Mack Stiles, john folmar,john welkner, Richard, anand, joshmanley, dave, babu.ganta, scott, Steve Jennings, covhopedubai, Kwesi Sena, paddy starnes, ken
STATEMENT FROM R. ALBERT MOHLER JR. ON SOVEREIGN GRACE CHURCHES
As many are aware, I have recently apologized and asked forgiveness for serious errors I made in how I responded to concerns that were raised about Sovereign Grace Churches and CJ Mahaney.
In 2013 I was part of a statement supportive of CJ and dismissive of the allegations and concerns raised regarding SGC’s handling of sexual and domestic abuse claims. This was motivated by several factors. At the time the allegations surfaced, I did request that CJ and the ministry participate in an independent investigation, and I was pointed to the investigation that Covenant Life Church had commissioned. I did not realize until this past year that SGC and its leaders had not participated in that investigation, nor was I equipped to know the shortcomings of how that investigation was conducted. I wrongly believed that an investigation had been done, and relied on that assurance and the court dismissal of the civil suit, along with my personal knowledge of CJ, when I issued my statement of support in 2013. I deeply regret this. I frankly was not equipped to sift through the allegations and did not grasp the situation, and I am responsible for that and for not seeking the counsel of those who were.
I also deeply regret my introduction of CJ at Together for the Gospel the following year. My words were intended to reference the general fog of information on the Internet, and I am grieved to acknowledge that I did not even grasp the context I was speaking into. This was wrong, a serious error, and caused hurt to the victims and survivors who felt that their suffering had been trivialized and dismissed. And I grieve that, I apologize for that, I am deeply sorry, it was wrong and I must say so without excuse or minimization. I would never make such a comment again.
When this issue resurfaced a year ago, I was made painfully aware of my serious mistakes. I immediately urged that an independent investigation be conducted and agreed that CJ needed to step down from public ministry until that took place. This resulted in a severing of all personal and ministry ties, and I have had no relationship with CJ or SGC since that time.
I was deeply affected by the documentation offered by Rachael Denhollander. I met with Jacob and Rachael soon after she released the documentation and I have deeply appreciated her counsel. That first conversation fundamentally changed my understanding of this issue.
I issued a statement in May making it clear that any ministry or organization facing these allegations must submit to an independent investigation. I did not specify SCG by name because I was concerned it would appear self-serving and a political effort to save face. In hindsight, I believe speaking more specifically, earlier, would have been wiser. I sought to be clear by my actions in severing public ties and calling all ministries to a higher standard, but as I am learning more I have realized that this did not communicate to the extent I had intended it to.
I wish I had spoken more forcefully. I should have been very clear about insisting on an independent, credible, third-party investigation right from the time these allegations arose. I should have said nothing until I had heard from the survivors who were making those allegations. I should have sought advice and counsel of agencies and authorities and experts who were even then on the front lines of dealing with these kinds of allegations.
It is my own mistakes that, in large part, are driving my sense of urgency to respond clearly and forcefully to the problems in the SBC which the Houston Chronicle has detailed.
A word to our students, particularly survivors on this campus: I want you to know that I am grieved at these errors, I am seeking input from those who know more. We have stringent policies in place but are working on a public document outlining our policies for handling allegations of abuse and where to go for help, which we will post to ensure the greatest accountability possible. We also have a liaison available to you if you have suffered abuse or harassment who can offer support, advocacy, and help.
To the survivors who were hurt by my errors, please know how grieved I am. Some will question whether the force of public pressure explains the timing of my statement and its public nature. In all candor, this pressure is no doubt part of that explanation. That fact should serve to encourage survivors and their advocates to maintain such pressure.
And for survivors who may not yet have spoken up, especially regarding allegations of abuse that have not yet been investigated by law enforcement, I urge anyone with information to report to the proper legal authorities so justice and the truth can be pursued.
I can only speak for myself, but I wish to do so clearly, acknowledging these errors, grieving at the harm that was done, and committing to do everything I can to lead well and to serve Christ faithfully.
Albert Mohler, Jr.
“Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves; ensure justice for those being crushed. Yes, speak up for the poor and helpless, and see that they get justice.” -Proverbs 31:8-9 NLT
Good job Todd. The good old boys’ network is on full display for sure and I am at least encouraged that Al Mohler came clean the way he did. It seemed sincere, at least from my perspective. I am probably one of the few that lines up with what Mark Dever wrote in the “9 Marx” book, but also believes that the blogs are necessary. Dee has done a great job. The pride and downright criminal behavior that has been tolerated and covered up will be judged by God…. And these people fear a blog??
Good point. Putting it all in Eternal Perspective.
May I ask, Todd, did you receive a response from any of the pastors to your February 2019 email?
George,
Al Mohler didn’t come clean the way he did until several months after his ole buddy, Paige Patterson had been fired from SWBTS….. after the SBC had made the nightly news in a not good way, not Christian way …. and a short time before the SBC Birmingham convention, when he knew his precious SBC, as a whole would have to deal with an abuse crisis.
I think Mohler was just trying to cover his own……. uhm, assets.
Yeah, these guys and their womenfolk do fear a blog …
This type fears the truth.
Did anyone watch Dateline tonight? A Christian couple highly active in the church and one ends up dead at 25yo; she had no idea they were to be evicted at noon the next day due to a foreclosure that only he knew about. Secrets.
He wouldn’t voice the truth. Same situation in his 2nd marriage (secret 2nd foreclosure hidden from 2nd wife until she smelled deception, wisely outed lies, and fled).
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
You may be right Nancy. I do not know his heart, but he covered a lot in that statement. Unfortunately a lot of people do not wake up until reality bashes them in the face and rocks their world (and their cronies’ world). What I struggle with is making repentance impossible for someone because they waited too long to do it. I guess we could argue that he should liquidate assets and support survivors or donate to their cause or something like that. What could he do to prove his sincerity? Maybe he should have stepped down from his position because of the favoritism he displayed? He probably has the savings to do so.
No one seems willing to call out the Moscow, Idaho pope, Doug Wilson, either.
Please reconsider, brother. The primary mark of a healthy church is humble, self-sacrificial love (for example, see John 13:12-17, 34-35; 15:12-17; 1 Corinthians 12:31-13:13; John 3:10-11; 4:7-21). But it is not listed in the so-called “Nine Marks of a Healthy Church”.
… throughout New Calvinism. The inner ring rules.
He’s still got a lot of scrubbing to do, IMO. I doubt the he will ever repent of his association with Dever, a member of “Al’s little playgroup” (a phrase coined by Mrs. Mohler). A lot of mainline non-Calvinist Southern Baptists are not too happy with the way Mohler and the Mohlerites have played with SBC.
That would be a great start!
A true mark of a healthy church that you won’t find on the 9Marks list. It should have been #1! (and it is, of course, in a truly healthy Christian church … the greatest is love)
Things aren’t going to get any better in SBC until the “healthy” churches are booted out.
Thanks, George. I appreciate your comment.
I agree with many of Dever’s 9 Marks – here is the list:
1. A Commitment to Expositional Preaching
2. A Sound Theological System
3. A Biblical Understanding of the Gospel
4. A Biblical Understanding of Conversion
5. A Biblical Understanding of Evangelism
6. A Biblical Understanding of Church Membership
7. A Plurality of Elders
8. Biblical Church Discipline
9. Promotion of Christian Discipleship and Growth
Here us what I have issues with:
#1 While expositional preaching through a book of the Bible is fine, I don’t think it’s the only type of preaching that should be done. Topical is often helpful.
#2 By this I assume Dever means Calvinism. If so, I don’t think it’s wise to conclude one’s own views are 100% correct. I think humility is demonstrated by admitting Arminianism has some valid points.
#6 I cannot find biblical support for Dever’s view of church membership. (Going hand in hand with this is baptism. Dever’s view on baptism is appalling.)
#7 Sounds good on paper, but what I have seen in practice is the senior pastor surrounds himself with a group of yes-men that rubber stamp whatever the pastor wants.
#8 Church discipline in the hands of a heavy-handed authoritarian pastor is a disaster. Dever and Leeman put out a video in which they tried to say this was mostly done by young, overly enthusiastic pastors. Wrong. I saw it in action by John Folmar.
Source: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/evangelical-history/mark-devers-original-letter-church-plant-9-marks-healthy-church/
Precisely, Max. Thanks.
I did not, Sarah.
That said, to be fair to Mack, he wrote me on February 11, 2020 and said (among other things) he had turned down an invitation to preach at Mahaney’s church in the Fall of 2019.
I agree. But I don’t see it happening anytime soon.
Great post, Todd. We just never forget…I sure haven’t.
Todd Wilhelm,
Todd, I have read, then reread the email that Mack Styles sent to you multiple times. What stands out to me was his taking scripture out of context and using it to justify his turning a blind eye to the evil that he knew was being committed in SG churches:
“But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice,”
This really irks me, makes me angry….. sick! What do the lives and souls of children matter to SG???
Stiles perfectly willing to allow children, (and women) to be sacrificed on the altar of fame, fortune, and power…….. and “continue to rejoice”?????
I am getting the timeline right: converted in late 1995 and SWBTS graduate and assistant pastor in 2003?
IMO, that’s a bit hasty to be “laying on hands”.
Thanks for the comment, Nancy. I agree with you. If you go to my article that I linked to you will find several Christian celebrities who joined the conga line of speakers at Mahaney’s run-away church plant.
https://thouarttheman.org/2013/07/08/the-hall-of-shame/
Thanks for commenting, Samuel. I agree with you. Not a biggie, but Folmar attended Southern Seminary.
Folmar has a sharp mind but I would note that he has only experienced life in the 9Marks brand of Christianity and he seemed to only read books that were authored by like-minded guys.
The Bible is one of the most used tools by scoundrels.
Even the great orange ducktail has done it.
I cant help thinking about Arabic, where (like all Semitic languages) words have a three-consonant root; words are formed by adding vowels to this root. Different vowels give different words, but all words with the same three-consonant root usually have related meanings.
Specifically, Salaam (Peace) and Islam (Submission) have the same root SLM. Since words with the same root have related meanings, Peace and Submission are related. Which begs the question, does Peace come only when the weak Submit to the strong, when ordinary people Submit to the Leaders?
Take that a step further with “Islam” effectively meaning “Submission to the Will of God”, and its a short distance to the Leaders’ “INFERIORS, SUBMIT! GOD WILLS IT!” And the Leaders force Submission on everybody else because They’re Doing God’s Will.
Calvinism has been described as “Islamizing the Reformation”.
And sociopaths.
You mean He who American Evangelicals worship as the REAL Second Coming of Christ? Who WILL Get Things Done?
I assume from the next paragraph it was the She who wound up dead.
At which point, Suicide or “Suicide with a little help from Hubby”?
“More Christian Family Values” — News of the Weird heading
It’s easy to find heavy-handed, young, overly enthusiastic authoritarian pastors in SBC life … the young reformers are in darn near every community across America. Dever and his 9Marxism are responsible for their behavior … they are just simply following their master and serve as constant reminders that “love” is not on the 9Marks list.
Who are they over enthusiastically disciplining, and for what?
Exploitation of children by men associated with churches and Christian institutions, camps, schools and such? Violation of teens by youth pastors? Seduction and/or assault of counselees by pastoral counselors?
If so, good job. Highly needed. I’m all for it.
Thank you, Todd, for including the link to your post The Hall of Shame….I scrolled down though your post, noting some of the names in your Hall of Shame on the way by.
At the end of your post, you had a cartoon that I thought was so good —- and applies to many more “church” (and some church) people than are listed in your Hall of Shame — that I thought I’d copy the link to the cartoon here (The Naked Pastor, Upon these people we will build our church).
https://web.archive.org/web/20170315151225im_/https://thouartthemandotorg.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/upon-these-people-build-church.jpg
And I’m so sorry, Todd, that you’ve been one of the people on which they’ve built their “church” (and sometimes church).
Well, Ava, that would be me and you … if they get the chance. They don’t like folks who question their belief and practice … with a particular dislike for women (like you) and old folks (like me) who challenge their bad-boy behavior. We mess with their minds and disrupt their “healthy” church.
One day, they will answer to a higher authority.
It’s tough out there right now. I’m going to be honest. Confronting these guys is not like confronting Scientology. I knew the Sea Org members weren’t armed then (and probably not now because that costs money Lil Davey Miscavige doesn’t want to spend). I cannot guarantee that for these churches these days. A person standing outside Christ Kirk meeting at the Logos field house in Moscow across the street on the sidewalk (yes, they have them) holding a sign saying “Christ Kirk is a full-on CULT” could be putting themselves in grave danger.
I wish I didn’t have to say this, but it is not safe to protest “Evangelical” churches right now because of the prevalence of wanting to resort to man’s ways to solve problems. I had to become responsible and stop protesting churches here in AZ because I help care for my mother. As her health has declined, it is very clear I made the right decision to support my brother.
But I am TELLING you, that if Christians decided to do what a bunch of free speech nuts and annoyed people did starting in the 1990s to Scientology, there might not be such a problem right now. But as long as Doug Wilson or any other pastor clings even to shreds of orthodoxy, they can run deviant cults of personality because orthopraxis doesn’t matter unless it’s sex. And even then, it doesn’t seem to matter.
Signed, Frustrated
Very true.
Some of those folks are as crazy as outhouse rats, and as gun happy as kids on carnival rides.
Not the typical resume of a church member, but it certainly fits the radical far right fringe of fundievangelicalism … with even “pastors” counted in that number!
Somewhat related: A friend of ours in a faraway state was recently asked to join his church’s security team. Apparently there’s a concern that “some people” don’t like the preaching and “might have made threats.” The team is led by a former police officer. On Sundays, ten men walk around the church grounds and parking lots. They wear earpieces.
In the past, this same church has had problems with nepotism and the mysterious disappearance of money, as well as another scandal or two.
But yeah sure, they need security cosplay to protect their Righteous Preaching from people outdoors.
^^^This does not remind me of the feeding of the five thousand.
Friend,
Fall in line. Or else.
Apparently.
Representing the chief priest, Pharisees, and Sanhedrin Sadducees, the Temple Police or Guards arrested Jesus.
Maybe today’s churches with pastors requiring church security are simply faithful to traditional or orthodox protocols.
You can speak for yourself, Max, however I guess my family is in no way signing up for their opportunity.
In our free society, it would almost seem preferable to conceivably hang out with pagans. Almost.
Like Objects rejoicing joyfully with great enthusiasm before Comrade Dear Leader in Pyongyang.
Do they also pack concealed?
And/or wear Tacticool Gear?
I thought the Christian cosplay theme these days was The Turner Diaries instead of Men In Black.
Ava Aaronson,
I’m old enough to remember when somebody would just quietly walk out during the sermon, and it was a Big Deal.
In our friend’s recent situation, I don’t believe this “need” for security has anything to do with preaching. I think these guys are totally inventing threats to build the congregation’s sense of being up against the World. Also, who wouldn’t like an entourage?
nor mine … there go I but for the grace of God, who rescued us from the NeoCal snare
Friend,
I wonder what the local Facebook chatter says about this church and it’s notable pastor?
The New Calvinists are apparently more concerned about manipulating, intimidating and dominating the five thousand … disciplining the spiritual daylights out of them until they submit to their authority.
Jesus’s entourage were prayer warriors, or so He requested (that the disciples pray, the night He was arrested).
Ava Aaronson,
And Jesus was under threat due to his preaching.
Adding to my list of things to avoid when considering a new church: security theater and paranoia.
As we should find in the Church of the Living God … it’s to be a House of Prayer, not a den of thieves.
Good tip. Red flag.
In Jesus’ case, theatre became a deadly reality. And paranoia became the order for an execution.
Church security detail nowadays is definitely not a good look.
Actually where we live churches of all stripes now have security. Off duty PD greeters. Ushers who are trained and armed.
Churches are soft targets just like schools.
Spiritual leaders be they Christian, Jewish, or Muslim have come under attack.
I give a pass to anyone providing security.
Todd Wilhelm,
Todd, I don’t necessarily think that John Folmar’s problem was that he was too young. John was a gifted preacher as I remember. But owing his position to Mark Dever appears to me that he could not afford to go against Mark Dever’s counsel. I am saddened by what transpired. I commend you for your integrity.
Jesus’s entourage were prayer warriors, or so He requested (that the disciples pray, the night He was arrested).
Ava Aaronson,
What did Jesus say and do after Peter cut off a man’s ear?…..
It appears that more and more often, today’s so called “prayer warriors” are armed, ready and willing to aim for more than just ears
It’s as American as cotton candy and carnival rides.
We are what we are.
E Pluribus Unum (Out of Many, one).
I agree with your assessment, Ken. Folmar was a gifted speaker and has a keen mind. I am going to put an interesting recording of him on my post today. He definitely holds Dever in high esteem.
They dare not? The silence in the face of an extreme bully, an anti-Christ type?
Fear? Cowardice?
Or something worse: an ACCEPTANCE of the bullying and hatefulness that is beyond what one can envision for oneself just yet – something perceived as ‘STRENGTH’, ‘a STRONG LEADER’, ‘the ANOINTED ONE OF GOD’
not unlike the good Christian evangelical followers of Trump????
what are we? who exist in a world that targets the innocent with abuse and seeks power and control at the price of our own souls given over to a monster ? I can’t help thinking of Yeats’ ‘what rough beast slouches towards Bethlehem to be born’
2024 is coming.
What rough beast indeed? When do we start looking in the mirror, we who ‘need’ a ‘strong leader’ who bullies the innocent??????
God have mercy. On all of us.
I see nothing wrong with church security, I remember a couple years ago when a young white male shot and killed over half a dozen black parishioners. Our local theater has an off duty police officer there every day. It is just a common sense precaution in these troubled times.
Chuckp,
Effective security is needed, of course.
Churches need protection, not drama and thrills. I oppose security cosplay and security theater at churches. I reject paranoia and entourages at churches. I oppose gun giveaways at churches, and the use of weapons as holy objects carried in certain church ceremonies. Very few churches need their own police departments.
The church I attend is in a town with a certain amount of crime. The building has security cameras, keypad entry, and other security automation. We do employ security guards for certain events, such as round-the-clock vigils. They work unobtrusively, so people do not feel like they are praying in a police station.
They do not put on a show.
If my church coerced male members to volunteer to traipse around with radios during the service, because of unspecified threats related to preaching, I would have very pointed questions.
I hope the distinction is clear.
The gun-toting male CCW people/deacons/members at my former church… walking around with their radios and other electronic stuff, guns in holsters…..all refused to get Covid shots or wear masks for protection from others because “God is in charge of our destiny, and He decides when we are to die.” Or, “God will protect us.” So, why do they have guns for protection that can kill…in their homes, their cars,in our church… to protect themselves and others? Why not just let themselves get shot by an intruder “’cause God decides all that anyway?”
I have wondered if it is because they are insecure, want to show power, feel important, tough guy, want to kill animals for sport, etc. When I saw photos of a church camp I financially support showing camp counselors teaching very young kids how to shoot with what looked like real guns…. that was it for me.
Maybe I am just as bad….I won’t own a gun, but I always wore a mask.
Thinking of Dee and family….
I agree, and armed, the better.
best description of the NeoCal theo-dudes that I’ve heard!
That whole rebellion against Covid vaccinations and masks was not a matter of the state trying to tell the church what to do … it was necessary intervention by health professionals to curtail a public health crisis! … it was the right thing to do. As it turned out, the church proved to be a Covid super-spreader in some communities with church leaders/members dying in their destiny. I find no Scripture which says that church folks are destined to be stupid … but they are some of the most gullible creatures on the planet.
Those same people would still burn witches too if they could.
I dare say that most churches these days have folks in attendance packing heat (concealed weapons). I know of one large SBC church in my area which has multiple people carrying concealed guns stationed around the sanctuary at every service. I hope if they have an incident they don’t shoot each other! But, on a serious note, such security is called for these days … as sad as it is, it’s come to that in America.
Max,
I would not assume that most American churches have armed worshipers. That might be the norm in certain traditions or certain areas.
Personally, I would not carry there, if only because there are no turkeys at my church—at least, not the kind with feathers.
Yes, I should have emphasized “my area” … I live in a gun-friendly constitutional carry State. I guarantee you that most churches in my area have one or more armed worshippers (or security professionals posing as worshippers). There are church security consultants making a good living in these parts, providing training on how to handle bad-boys who might show up at church.
Here in Canada, you cannot legally carry a handgun or any other firearm.
You can own hunting rifles, lots do but assault weapons are banned and handgun laws are very strict.
I would not go to church that needed armed security. I’ve traveled extensively throughout the US and have never had a security issue.
Is gun violence a possibility? Sure, even here, it’s problematic but if it gets to the point the congregation is packing, it’s more likely they’ve given into paranoia. I’d be more scared of the congregation, religion and guns are poor bedfellows. Just ask congressman Leo Ryan…oh yeah, you can’t. Hey, Kool Aid!
Sounds like it’s safer to stay home and save 10%.
Who pays for the armed security, who buys their equipment?
Yet another argument for removing tax free status from churches.
Google “D’Jesus Uncrossed ” the SNL skit with Christoph Waltz.
“A less violent Passion of the Christ”
Security is not always about the fear of people attacking the worship service, even though that captures our attention. Some places have a long-standing need for unobtrusive professional security. I know one large historic church that hosts thousands of visitors each week for worship, tours, and private and public events. Security folks deal with people who are lost, illegal parking, trespassing, shoplifting at the museum store, and presumably other types of crimes that occur in that city.
When I worship there, I don’t see or think about the ways in which the institution keeps the building and grounds safe. I focus on prayer and singing.
Who pays for that? Donors pay for that. Security there has nothing to do with tax-free status, it’s not a shakedown, and it’s not coercing ill-prepared male volunteers who would rather be in the choir.
A paranoia deposited in the American soul after numerous school and church shootings. Places once deemed to be safe havens have been stricken with evil.
That’s like a museum, I can get that. But that type of security doesn’t necessarily require packing heat.
And it’s not the entire congregation arriving ready to rumble.
As I’ve said, I’ve been to the states, a lot.
Yes there’s a risk of shootings but what Max is talking about sounds like the wild west.
That’s the road to Kool Aid or Flavor Aid or Hawaiian Punch, whatever floats your boat.
Only on the fundievangelical fringe … the rest of the American church is civil enough.
Jack,
One random day I got a frantic text from a close relative who was at work: “gunfire outside im trapped.”
My dear one hid in a back room while two carloads of men fired on each other just outside the front door. Fortunately they soon fled in their cars. The police chased the cars. Police also searched the building and held everyone inside for several HOURS to make sure it wasn’t a criminal business, hostage scene, or gunman’s hiding place. The poor frightened workers and customers were treated as suspects. Workers could neither work nor leave. The police had to do this, but it made the ordeal even harder.
This terrified our family. Still, my relative returned to work as scheduled, and we all gradually recovered. It’s an awful story about life here—and also about our determination not to let one day of terror change our daily routine.
Friend,
our grandsons just went through a school lockdown … fortunately, it was a false alarm … the teachers at their school have been through active shooter training … sad day in America
Max,
🙁
Then I don’t think there’s a need to carry a firearm to church or have armed security. Not talking about parking patrol or folks to watch out for vandalism – my wife’s church is in a rough area so sometimes there are mental health disturbances, I’m talking about an in church tactical response team – that just sounds too Waco for me. I’d give such a church a wide berth. That never ends well, and I wouldn’t want my family near it.
Schools don’t mess around with alarms and nor should they. My kids have been through lockdowns for a variety of reasons. And emergency training is a good thing. But still not sure additional firepower in place is needed. The average citizen is not trained to confront a tactical response situation.
Having a firearm for personal defense is not equal to having the knowledge to respond to a situation where chaos reigns and who knows what is happening.
Armed defense should be a last resort.
I’m not a prophet or a son of a prophet. Nor do I take pleasure in saying this, but I’m not sure how much longer the Lord is going to have mercy on the US “church”.
Your comment makes me sad not only because it’s true, but it also reflects the reality that the Holy Spirit does not seem to dwell richly (if at all) in these leaders. If He did, they would respond to these kinds of protests out of conviction and repentance and not as an act of self-protection fueled by the desire to pursue damage control.
These people honor God with their lips by their championing of theology, but their hearts are far from Him. I am reformed theologically, as many of them claim to be, but loyal adherence to a theological system you define as orthodoxy does not equate to and is meaningless without holiness that is characterized by the fruit of the Spirit. One thing I learned in seminary is that knowing a lot about God is nowhere near the same thing as knowing and loving the Lord Jesus. Many confuse loving Jesus with loving their theology.
I’ve been a Christian for 70 years … it’s been decades since I ran across a church leader who would be accused of being richly indwelt by the Holy Spirit! (you will know them by their fruit). There’s not enough spiritual power in most pulpits to blow the dust off a peanut!
There’s increasing evidence that the Lord Jesus has already exited the American church in many places, where His authority and influence had been usurped by authoritarian pulpiteers and theodudes. Fortunately, for believers caught up in this mess, they can be comforted by the fact that ‘they’ are the temple of the Holy Spirit even if their church isn’t.
This is very funny… yet tragically accurate!
Tom Rubino,
IMO, the underlying problem with the American church is that its pulpits are occupied by folks who went into the ministry without being called into it. Seminaries are full of men preparing for the ministry without being anointed for the role. Without the anointing, things like New Calvinism and 9Marks can easily fill the void. We are playing games with God … actors on a stage … that’s why anything and everything shows up for the show.
It depends on your definition of ‘mercy’, I suppose. For most of us, Jesus Christ IS ‘the Mercy of God’ to our fallen world;
but to some, there is another viewpoint, as in the words of author Flannery O’Connor, who wrote, this:
““He felt his hunger no longer as a pain but as a tide. He felt it rising in himself through time and darkness, rising through the centuries, and he knew that it rose in a line of men whose lives were chosen to sustain it, who would wander in the world, strangers from that violent country where the silence is never broken except to shout the truth. He felt it building from the blood of Abel to his own, rising and spreading in the night, a red-gold tree of fire ascended as if it would consume the darkness in one tremendous burst of flame. The boy’s breath went out to meet it. He knew that this was the fire that had encircled Daniel, that had raised Elijah from the earth, that had spoken to Moses and would in the instant speak to him. He threw himself to the ground and with his face against the dirt of the grave, he heard the command. GO WARN THE CHILDREN OF GOD OF THE TERRIBLE SPEED OF MERCY. The words were as silent as seed opening one at a time in his blood.”
― Flannery O’Connor, The Violent Bear It Away
What are the expecting to do?
SHOOT the virus with their TactiKEWL Second Amendment Equipment?
Like the guy in Don’t Look Up blazing away at the incoming Killer Asteroid with his AR-15s (plural)?