King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know you do.”
Then Agrippa said to Paul, “Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?”
Paul replied, “Short time or long—I pray to God that not only you but all who are listening to me today may become what I am, except for these chains.”
Act 26:28-29 NIV
We’re either building our lives on the reality of what God is truly like and what he’s about, or we’re basing our lives on our own imagination and misconceptions.
Harris, Joshua. Dug Down Deep (p. 11). The Crown Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
CLC Pastors Loftness, Maresco, Kauflin, Layman, Boisvert, Mahaney, and Harris
I genuinely like Joshua Harris. I do not know him, but I have observed him for years. He appears to be a kind, caring, loving man. Not long ago he sent a very kind email to a friend of mine who was going through some hard times. My friend greatly appreciated the message and was deeply moved by it.
Similar to the Bible verse quoted above, my prayer for Josh is short time or long time, he returns to Christ.
Harris has stated that going through the upheaval in Covenant Life Church and Sovereign Grace Ministries in 2011 and the following years was the hardest thing he had ever done. I don’t doubt it.
I think Josh would have come through with his faith intact were he not thrust into the leadership role of CLC at such a young age. Be that as it may, I want to point out a few amazing “about faces” or “change of hearts” he had in those tumultuous years. I don’t bring these things up to denigrate Josh, I would have failed miserably at his job, no matter how old I was or how much experience I had. I’d venture that most of us look back at experiences in our lives and wish we could go back in time and do things differently.
In 2013 Josh was urging people to stay at CLC.
In 2015 Josh resigned as Senior Pastor of CLC and headed to Canada for some Seminary training.
In 2010 Josh authored the book “Dug Down Deep – Unearthing What I Believe and Why it Matters.” He dedicated the book to his 3 children.
In 2019 Josh jettisoned his Christian faith. He stated he repented for “my fear-based approach to life,” among other things.
In July 2011 Josh Harris encourages church member to read Brent Detwiler’s documents. He says Brent Detwiler is a man of integrity.
In August 2011 Josh Harris does an about-face on what he said in the audio above, saying:
CLC – Church Blog
A Transcripted Excerpt of the August 17 Members Meeting
August 20 2011 at 4:27 pm
At Members Meeting this past Wednesday, Joshua Harris spoke at some length, offering perspective on the two recent resignations from the Covenant Life pastoral team, on some of his leadership decisions during the present crisis, and on C.J. Mahaney’s decision to attend another church during his leave of absence. The following is a transcript of Joshua’s remarks on these topics. Our hope is that reading it will provide background and further clarification for everyone who could not attend the meeting. Joshua’s remarks are also available as an audio download.
I want to take some time to address the issue of Brian Chesmore and Mike Bradshaw’s resignations. I want to just say, again, how saddened I am by their departure and how grateful I am for their years of service and their friendship.
When they wrote their letters they expressed to us as a pastoral team that they understood that we would need to explain our perspective and to share where we saw things differently. They invited that just as we were inviting them to share their perspective.
We chose not to go into great detail when we wrote our letter, but from the questions that we received, we think it is important to just speak to some of these issues and try to talk about this.
But before I share where we disagree, I want to just state, again, where we agree with Mike and Brian. I have already shared two weeks ago on a Sunday morning where I now regret how I led that first member’s meeting where we first addressed the [Brent Detwiler’s] documents. But I want to state this again, and I want to be even more specific. I failed you that night in not providing clear biblical definition and guidance in how to view the documents written by Brent Detwiler as well as the blogs. And there is just no excuse for me for not having clearly warned you in that moment of the dangers of gossip and slander.
In my desire to avoid any appearance of a cover up or avoid the appearance of spin, I failed to faithfully pastor you with Scripture. I didn’t turn to God’s Word in that moment. I had not prepared a clear presentation that I think would have protected you. In a desire to demonstrate that we are not hiding anything, I encouraged you to expose yourself to accusations against many people who have no process for defending themselves.
This week a faithful member of this church wrote me and the pastors a letter that God really used to convict me and clarify the issue for me. And I have been getting a lot of letters. I have been getting a lot of criticism for how I have processed different things, but the clear reasoning—and maybe it was just the timing of the Lord… but the clear reasoning from Scripture and what he shared really helped me to see this more clearly. And in it he pointed out that Brent’s documents expose or allege the sin of many people, many lay people, not just pastors, but members of churches by name, in some cases kids.
And these people have no way for their side of the story to be told. They have no process for clearing their name. And that really is true. And as I reflected on Brent’s documents and even the specific examples that this brother shared with me, Brent shares letters and information about many people that were gained through his role as a pastor and, in doing so, he harmed their reputations.
I just … I want you to imagine the impact it would have on you if personal letters and confessions that you shared in confidence were made public like this. And what just hit me in this is: I would never want to do that to you as a pastor, no matter how wrong I thought somebody else was, that would be wrong for me to do against you.
I am sorry to say that I didn’t consider the impact on all these other people when I encouraged you to read these documents. I was thinking, primarily, of C.J. who was humbly confessing his sin and who is committed to be evaluated by a panel. I was thinking of our pastoral team and our desire to be open about our faults. I mean, the mindset that I brought into that moment was, “Let’s just open up the doors and all the windows and just come in and look around. We have got nothing to hide.”
But I failed to consider all the other people, pastors and lay people, who are accused in these documents and I believe I owe these people an apology, and I am going to take the steps to contact as many of them personally as I can and specifically ask their forgiveness for this.
And the same applies to the blogs. You know, I shared this on that night and I think I have talked about this in different contexts. We should have talked about the blogs a long time ago. We should have brought biblical teaching to bear on what is taking place there and we should have led you as pastors in saying, “Let’s create a clear plan that you can have total confidence in and even involving the help of members where we can be addressing any person that writes something on a blog about Covenant Life.” How can we pursue them? Find out if we have done something wrong and pursue reconciliation. That is part of the reason I am excited about one of these ad hoc committees being devoted to the issue of processing grievances. I believe they are going to be able to help us in growing in this way.
But we didn’t do that. And that, again, is a failure of my leadership to not have clearly addressed this earlier on. And so when this crisis hits with these documents being posted and all these questions about trust and so on being, you know, exposed in these ways, my impulse was to say, “Listen. We are not afraid of you reading anything. We want you to be able to ask us any questions. If you are reading these blogs and you have got questions, bring that to us. Don’t feel that you can’t come to us with specific questions.”
But in communicating in that way, I really validated these blogs, and I didn’t think about all the people on these blogs that are being talked about. I just want you to put yourself in their shoes, if it was your family that was being talked about by other people or your marriage and the deep hurt that you would feel if I stood up and said, “Yeah, read the blogs.”
I read the above and while I don’t understand everything that was mentioned I do know from experience that Christian leadership can do immense damage both in the home and at churches. I have seen so much bad leadership in churches that I see why people don’t attend.
To be fair to pastors whom I have known, many laypersons are massive jerks too. Christian leadership has to be loved based, gentle and respectful and at times firm.
Christianity done poorly is devastating to all involved and it leads to many deconstructing.
Thanks for commenting, Chuckp. I agree with you.
Sometimes hubris (and/or wealth or legacy) takes a person where their heart cannot follow because their heart was never there in the first place.
Happens with many public figures in many milieux.
… promotion of a young Christian leader is ill-advised.
However, Eric Liddell, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, two examples, had the chops. Maybe because they literally laid down their lives? instead of riding high on fame and prominence and the public image of themselves? It was never about them, their hearts told themselves, and they stayed true to this knowledge.
The ground at the foot of the Cross is level. Those elevated, by themselves and/or by others, are no longer at the foot of the Cross. They have positioned themselves in a completely different place of worship. We see this play out repeatedly. Pride goes before a fall … even with the “nice” guys.
This is a really good point. Unlike Eric Liddell and Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Joshua Harris grew up in a para-church culture where to be in the pulpit means to be showered with privilege and power. (It’s coincidence that so many words in that phrase begin with ‘p’ – I generally try to avoid three-point sermons!!)
Nick Bulbeck,
“(It’s coincidence that so many words in that phrase begin with ‘p’ – I generally try to avoid three-point sermons!!)”
+++++++++++++++++++
i, too, am an accidental aliterist.
Speaking as one who has deconstructed into a God-believing non-Christian (from Catholicism) I would like to point out that secular scholars generally hold the Book of Acts (cited in this post) to be fiction.
This matters a lot to many of us.
As Joshua Harris said: “We’re either building our lives on the reality of what God is truly like and what he’s about, or we’re basing our lives on our own imagination and misconceptions.”
It’s possible to honor the fiction while not basing our lives on it.
“I think Josh would have come through with his faith intact were he not thrust into the leadership role of CLC at such a young age.”
When the New Calvinist movement has run its course, I think we will be saying the same for hundreds, perhaps thousands, of young reformers who bought the lie. Confused and disillusioned, they will fall away when the NeoCal bubble bursts.
I know many will consider what I am about to say heresy, but here goes: I believe the real harm being done in Christianity is being done by those intent on making it all about being good enough. I was raised in a version of the faith that defines repentance not as becoming perfect, or self flagellation or punishment, but of changing the mind about Jesus.
Now what would the faith look like if from the very beginning we had clung to 1 Timothy 4:10. It is very clear that Jesus is the savior of all, especially (does not say ONLY) those that believe.
What if our message had been only the truly GOOD news. Not that God is transactional and if you hold the right theology, or do the right works, or have the right rites He will love you, but simply the message He loves you. Through Jesus your sins are gone. Through Jesus evil is defeated and one day will be gone. (So no, you don’t bring your pet sin to Heaven.)
What if our call was not to flee an angry mean cruel God but to run to a loving God who truly is working ALL THINGS, even the hard stuff, for our good?
What if we really preached peace on earth and goodwill to men from God, without any qualifiers?
Why are we so afraid to do so?
Nick Bulbeck,
Yeah, yeah, but what’s goin’ on with fitba?
Problem is a LOT of today’s Christianity is based around Fear Manipulation and Guilt Manipulation. Fear of Satan and his Demons and Witches, Fear of God’s Wrath for our Sin Sin Sin, fear of Eternal Hell, Fear of the Great White Throne, Fear of the Big Bad Heathen World outside, Fear of your fellow Christians turning on you, Fear of Punishment.
Look at how Christians stop Abortion — Outlaw It and Punish! Punish! Punish!
Cultivate Fear of Punishment. Fear of Getting Caught.
And IKDG and Courtship — Fear of Sex, Fear of Defauding, Fear of Jezebels.
Cultivate Fear.
Biblical Manhood and Womanhood — Fear of stepping out of line.
Cultivate Fear.
Wretched Urgency Witnessing — Fear of God Holding You Accountable Because You Did Not Witness To X and X Died Unsaved.
Cultivate Fear.
During my time in-country (in the Dispensation of Hal Lindsay), the one constant seemed to be Fear. Of just about everything. (That and working yourself into a dopamine high about Heaven.)
Now the problem with Fear is it works on Threat of Punishment. (Like that scene in Chernobyl where Minister Shcherbina threatens to have Acadmedian Legasov thrown out of the helicopter.) Which tends to stall moral development at the Toddler level — Avoid Punishment At All Costs. No matter what the collateral damage to others. And you can only live in Fear so long before you kill yourself, go crazy, climb the Berlin Wall, or cave in completely like Winston Smith after Room 101. And once the Fear shows signs of cracking in any way, all bets are off.
And never come back.
A “TAKE YOUR GOD AND SHOVE IT!” reaction that can lock in permanently.
Which sets them up to be scooped up by another system or ideology – other religion, political, any mass movement that reproduces the dopamine fix — that comes along, just as long as it ISN’T the one the burned them.
Much of Christianity is based on the proposition that you (generic you) can never be ‘good enough’ for God, because he has a standard of ‘perfection’ that you (generic you) can never meet, and are thus screwed. I no longer buy into this, and I am now convinced that it’s a steaming pile of horse poo-poo.
How’s that for heresy?
As a father and a grandfather, I’m immensely pleased when my progeny do the best they can with what they’ve got, ‘perfection’ not required.
And that’s the damage which false prophets, aberrant theology, and heresy bring into the lives of young folks searching for truth. Payday someday for the leaders of these movements.
I’d have more compassion for Joshua Harris if he stopped involving the grand and paying public in every leg of his spiritual journey. He sells himself as a teller of his own stories and a professional who helps others present their stories.
And now he says he didn’t think ahead about the impact that stories will have? Did I read that correctly? Please correct me if I’m wrong.
From his website, joshharris dot com:
“I founded Clear & Loud, a creative agency focused on story-driven content. My background in religion has given me an interesting vantage point to think about how longing for purpose and meaning shape human behavior.
“… A few times a year I coach a small cohort—authors, speakers, thought-leaders—to clarify their message and then understand and reach the right audience. This is my “message-incubator”—a place to find and help amplify world-changing ideas.”
Last time I looked, Liverpool were down to 9 men… no idea what’s going on there. I didn’t dare look again.
Words to live by.
As I’ve said before, the most successful “pastors” in America reach stardom because they have a gift of gab, touch of charisma, and bag of gimmicks. Story-tellers tell stories to entertain … Church as Entertainment is full of such characters.
And in the end, it’s all OK cuz “others” are just rubes who follow?
Anyway, excellent comment, IMHO. Spot on.
It’s not the errancy as much as the elevation, again IMHO. Everyone is in spiritual formation of some sort. Only a few, however, have grandiose platforms, with mainly THEIR voice filling the room, while bringing in big bucks.
CJP,
“…point out that secular scholars generally hold the Book of Acts (cited in this post) to be fiction.”
+++++++++++++++++++++
hmmm…. fiction is loaded with truth. factual events, even (stylized or reimagined to some degree).
the writer has to have knowledge & understanding as a starting point.
I think I might say, “It’s possible to honor the description while refraining from turning it into a prescription.”
the christian obsession with being ‘biblical’ is intellectually totally disappointing & embarrassing (since it’s a logical impossibility).
(as in, ‘there’s only one way to do everything and it’s what I say and my interpretation is the only correct one
[because i was told this by the man in dockers-&-a-polo or too-tight-jeans-&-a-t-shirt or ridiculous-looking-extreme-fashion-apparel’]).
———————–
i’d also really enjoy a post with the topic “what does christian mean?”
blimey, my agnostic relatives, and atheist, muslim, and buddhist friends are just as christ-like if not moreso than any christian i’ve ever known.
linda,
“What if we really preached peace on earth and goodwill to men from God, without any qualifiers?
Why are we so afraid to do so?”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
1) sounds like there’s no money in it.
2) there’s no us vs. them… we don’t get to be special. and there’s nothing to win at.
where’s the fun in that?
[there’s so much to mock in my silly religion.]
——————————
[i apologize if that was offensive.]
[can I sincerely apologize, while not being one iota apologetic or remorseful for speaking something?]
[i’ve been wondering this a lot lately.]
——————————
[i was recently accused of something because i was misheard/misinterpreted.
person A thought i said something i didn’t say at all.
even though i hadn’t said the thing, even the connotation of the sound of it left the other person stinging.
i don’t want to apologize for the fact they are stinging — that’s insulting to them.
do i apologize for saying something that person A misunderstood or misinterpreted?
person A (and their allies) seem to think so.
[here’s the thing: i’m one of the allies.]
—————————–
i think i’ll go against my maxim never to jump into a time machine if i ever run across one. and set it to something like 10 years from now.
the potential dangers outweigh the current frustrations.
Claiming to no longer be an adherent can be a shrewd move to keep wouldbe theodudes off one’s scent.
A secular profession is also a responsible attainment.
Neither you nor Josh knows yet what God is calling him to go “back” to (in good time). Something very different I think.
He gets a chance to think for himself and is surrounded by far more varied views than before.
How much does “evangelicalism” pray anyway?
Fool the paying public once, shame on the grifting con. Fool the paying public twice, shame on the paying public. Fools. Paying fools. Supplying the grifter. Foolishly. Conned.
Morlocks and Eloi.
Muff Potter,
it’d even be dangerous going back to Little House On The Prairie. People get weirded out by someone who looks, acts, and talks different.
I’d have to get contemporary clothing… but then i’d need money of the time… Mrs. Olsen surely wouldn’t give me any credit.
The world needs a debate on what “are you saved” is really about, and not about.
Churches haven’t explained how we shall be saved.
We aren’t allowed to produce works of mercy towards each other because we are permanently “depraved”.
No strength for living the life that lasts, makes indwelling ineffective. “Half a Holy Spirit” = no Jesus and no Father.
Josh Harris: “The only constant in life is change.”
Apparently Josh doesn’t know Jesus. Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
The Harris yo-yo roller coaster ride of trending this that the other, is symptomatic of not knowing JC in the firsthand place. One of the original Twelve had similar issues.
There’s change that is faith formation; there’s change where there never was faith from the jump. No there, there.
From today’s reading: Philippians 2:
“Brothers and sisters:
If there is any encouragement in Christ, any solace in love,
any participation in the Spirit, any compassion and mercy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, with the same love, united in heart, thinking one thing.
“Do nothing out of selfishness or out of vainglory; rather, humbly regard others as more important than yourselves, each looking out not for his own interests, but also for those of others.
“Have in you the same attitude
that is also in Christ Jesus,
Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
“Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue confess that
Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
There’s been an outbreak of that in the American church … a dilemma among young churchgoers that is manifested particularly in New Calvinism and its charismatic fringe.
… won’t preach in the NeoCal ranks … surrendering to Jesus, humility, having the mind of Christ, obedience to Jesus to the point of death just ain’t in their vocabulary.
There’s no Christianity but many “Christianities”
In general, I’ve considered “Christian” to mean a believer in the resurrection and the Trinity. I never understood the Trinity and don’t think the bible events occurred as written.
It would be interesting to know how many cultural Christians there are out there.
Folks who adhere to the tenets of treating others as themselves and generally being kind and respectful to others.
Of course that’s not exclusively Christian but…
Anyway, I have completely renounced the edicts of Leviticus and Deuteronomy, and firmly think head shaving for women is a fashion choice not punishment for speaking in church.
Harris is his own brand. There’s a certain fascination in his journey that attracts enough gullible followers to finance his trip. He has to show up every once in a while with some sensational news about his latest change of heart to keep the gravy train moving.
CJP,
“deconstructed into a God-believing non-Christian”
+++++++++++++++++++++
can you shed light on ‘non-christian’?
i mean, i’m no longer an attender; i no longer speak christianese; my political views have shifted a bit.
many people in my life see me as no longer christian. just because of these things.
when they talk to me, at times i see deep disappointment in the eyes, and they are troubled with concern for me, like i’m in danger.
i no longer see myself or refer to myself as ‘christian’ because of what the subculture has made of itself. it grates against my integrity, deeply-held values, and self-respect too much. like having to wear a uniform that doesn’t fit, looks dumb, and represents a brand that has a shoddy product and well-known ethical problems, too.
i believe jesus is totally real and interactive, as is God and Holy Spirit, and is/are totally fabulous. don’t understand how it all works but i don’t give a flying fick.
so what’s christian and what’s not christian? (a totally honest question)
Friend,
“I’d have more compassion for Joshua Harris if he stopped involving the grand and paying public in every leg of his spiritual journey.”
++++++++++++++++++
i’m nauseated-exponentialized by monetizing spirituality, faith, religion, ministry.
if necessary, just cover the overhead, and make oneself a financial participant, taking a greater share of the cost.
No offence to you intended, Linda….I’d originally planned on a different reply to you, agreeing with some of the things you said. 🙂 As I was writing my reply to you, I opted to use your comment to write something different….thank you for providing me with the words. 🙂
That.
Jack,
“Folks who adhere to the tenets of treating others as themselves and generally being kind and respectful to others.”
+++++++++++
that’s most people. maybe not all the time, but most of the time.
human beings are magnificent.
Especially when “Biblical” is defined as “Whatever I Do that YOU DON’T.”
Never mind all the “Bible Lobotomies” running around reciting their Party Line.
Where Two Plus Two cannot equal Four without a Verse that says so. Word for Word.
I know nothing about this church or the attending controversies. Joshua Harris’ post reveals that he thinks his audience are child-like and incapable of exercising responsibility over their own lives. He must “pastor them”. He “should have brought biblical teaching to bear”, as if his congregants cannot read and understand for themselves. I don’t know anything about what Dee referred to but to me, Josh Harris seems condescending and presumptuous in the extreme. I hope I never read another word from him.
Some of these characters are continually reinventing themselves to reach new market segments within the Christian Industrial Complex. We’ve seen it before with Mark Driscoll, Francis Chan, and even the new & improved (?) C.J. Mahaney.
What if the church functioned more like a MASH unit? What if we saw all human beings as being redeemed by Jesus. Some don’t know it yet. Some are prisoners of war. Some are deeply wounded.
And our job is to find them, tell them they are free, and do all we can to heal their wounds.
Every last person we meet is someone we are called to serve and tell them of their having been redeemed and freed.
Not much money it that. Lots of hard work and suffering, though. But I believe that is more what the church is to be.
Your milage may vary…
Renenber my comment above about “getting stuck at the Toddler level”?
Jack,
yeah… I make some exceptions.
i take rapid transit 4 days a week, surrounded by a wide variety of people — we’re all struggling with various things; some in a more dire or extreme way.
it’s all window dressing — take away the outter layer, & underneath it all, we’re all just doing our best, trying to survive. trying to do the responsible, honorable thing. even those who appear not to be.
should a disaster of some kind befall the bart train while i was on it, i highly doubt that everyone wouldn’t pull together to help each other. and the outter layer would cease to be relevant…cease to exist.
I agree.
Yes we are.
I’d much rather focus on our (humans) good stuff rather than dwell on the bad.
Niche. And he’s not alone.
Max,
This why, nauseous as he is, I cheer him for modelling honest nauseousness, unlike the pretend dissidents. The rest of them need leading a step at a time. I agree with everyone’s analysis, but I’m not agreeing with those who disapprove him just as much as those he broke ranks with, as if he is even more a traitor than before like the latter are saying.
Perhaps a misapplication of Matt. 18 promotes infantilizing of parishioners by “pastors” – quotes because pastoring is a gift of the Holy Spirit Who would never infantilize parishioners. Faith formation is NEVER infantilizing, it is discipleship which is the OPPOSITE of infantilizing.
From Matt. 18: The disciples approached Jesus and said,
“Who is the greatest in the Kingdom of heaven?”
He called a child over, placed it in their midst, and said,
“Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the Kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the Kingdom of heaven. And whoever receives one child such as this in my name receives me.
“See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven always look upon the face of my heavenly Father.”
Harris is a grifter. When his brand of Christianity went south, he jumped. And he’ll play the ex-christian role as long as it’s profitable.
He’ll then repent and write books about it.
He just has to wait for the right time and the right mark. Which pastor will make the most money reconverting Josh Harris?
The problem is that this is a one trick pony. So it’ll be when his current con runs out of steam.
Like most of religion, it’s a con job.
elastigirl,
Ok, fair enough.
And I can’t argue with the back up either. It’s hard work being cynical….
Unless you redefine “disipling” to be forcing the “disciple/baby Christian” to become Exactly Like his/her “shepherd”, eh, My Dear Wormwood?
50 years ago, I got a taste of the receiving end of the Shepherding Movement.
The damage is still there.
And we also see it with a Wal-Mart on every corner, or Home Depot and Lowe’s putting their big-boxes neat each other to siphon off each other’s customers.
When happens then they have more outlets than customers?
Another example of the Rabbi from Nazareth giving a completely Unexpected Answer.
The type of answer that stretches the mind of the questioners and is supposed to make them think.
Not exactly the Socratic Method of answering a question with a question, but with the same intent and similar effect.
Lol and the box stores lose out to online – sounds familiar.
Well, at least he’s got something going for him. I suppose that “honest nauseousness” can draw a crowd … apparently it’s come to that in the American church, considering the multitudes who follow sickening preachers.
That.
No offence to you intended, Linda, by my changing your word “job” to the word “task”….there are those (victims, survivors, abusers, abusers’ allies, etc.) who might read the word “job” and negatively twist it….but then, as I wrote this in my comment, I realized there are those who might do the same thing when they read my word “task”. 🙂
(The bold was done by me.)
That.
researcher,
I like the change to task. And maybe a better word might even be responsibility.
As in we will be held responsible for not telling people they are loved, have been redeemed, can “go home” instead of staying in the hell of the battlefield, or for not binding up their wounds.
“If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come” (2 Corinthian 5:17)
“Put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth” (Ephesians 4:24)
Josh Harris was thrown under the bus by CJ. CJ did that to a lot of people. Josh , when I knew him was a nice young man. He would take the time to listen and interact with people. He was in my opinion humble. I don’t know anything about his marriage and I’m going to read Shannon’s book. The way women were treated in CLC was disastrous. Josh didn’t start that. It could be that after all the fallout happened and Josh saw what was what he became disillusioned. I know I did.
You’re not alone.
Even though I hold to the tenets of The Apostle’s Creed as non-negotiable parameters up front and on the table, I’ve been viewed by some as non-Christian because I pick and choose what I believe or don’t believe from the other stuff.
When the New Calvinist bubble bursts (it will), thousands of followers will be left confused and disillusioned.
Many have already morphed into Orthobros, and they’re even nastier than they were when they were Young, Restless & Reformed. Trust me.
Joy Huff,
“The way women were treated in CLC was disastrous“
++++++++++++++++
Can you describe disastrous? (I have no doubts that it was)
I think it’s good to understand these things.
Christian culture causes people to lose self-awareness,
such that they have no clue their doctrYnal-informed behavior is dehumanizing, insulting, manipulative, cruel, arrogant, passive aggressive, ….destroying others while favoring what’s beneficial and convenient for oneself…
It’s a ridiculous state of affairs – what sounds good and fitting is utterly negated by the practice of it.
It’s a miracle. That somehow the institutional practice of Jesus’ namesake religion produces the antithesis of Jesus of Nazareth.
Perhaps the pendulum will swing back for some of them someday and they will become Christians.
Educate me, what are ‘Orthobros’?
Catholic Gate-Crasher,
I know what you mean. Not very velvet glove of mystique. And I don’t think it is going to collapse in that form, after all.
Max,
They will be too bewildered to be bewildered.
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/community/articles/influencers-orthobros-challenge-orthodox-christianity
The problem with deception is that you don’t know you are deceived because you are deceived.
Max,
The linked article told me everything I need to know about these guys.
Especially their contempt for women.
Max,
I saw the phenomenon as wider than, as well as including these. It’s vital not to package deal from the points only one pundit makes. My worst cult offered a handful of real truths by the by, which the main church should have and hadn’t. Likewise any homogenising amid false ecumenism based on fraternising by insecure seniors, is dangerous: leaders should stay in lane and pew goers should mix at own discretion.
The RCC and its ambit are full of these phenomena, including pro church closing as well as anti church closing, and favouring ever more convoluted forms of “orthodoxy”. They like to be incorporated into the main structures and associate with secular politics.
I detect similar bunches of people from some presbyterian-style independents in England, as well as throughout the C of E.
There are male versions of the Prairie Woman of Shame, both married and unmarried, who have done colossal harm to singles. Body theology was brought in by Falwell Junior’s materialist daddy et al, and was reinforced by the now near universal dispensationism, dominionism and pretend non-unitarianism.
Church men and boys got damaged by body theology and dominionism – including those who say they weren’t – and through them all secular agnostics who are more numerous over here than in the Americas.
All these elements essentialise their terminology and ceremonies.
Result: legalism, counter legalism and pre-emptive legalism, the example of the churches to secular professions and corporations.
I’ve been, from childhood, closer to many denominations than most other Wartburgers are, and also my family were outsiders on the inside to begin with – because my regional church hadn’t got round to creating its massive and puzzling “initiation” machineries yet.
The agency of individuals to take charge of their own prayer lives, which we used to have, longer ago than is fashionable to admit to recalling, got surrendered to the strong armers, counter strong armers, and pre-emptive strongarmers of whatever ideology.
I would summarise my childhood faith – we believed in showing each other how to ask God for help in our needs. Agnostic teachers and neighbours were supportive of us in that. Anyone more senior than a neighbourhood padre was unknown by name or picture, or was the butt of jokes and not reverence, even by genuine and kindly adherents.
Joy Huff,
Joy, thank you for your testimony. This was already apparent to me from the information circulating.
Oh yeah, Both RCC and Protestantism are littered with bad boy “orthobros”! I would place some fringes of New Calvinism in that category.
Thanks, Max!
I am all too familiar with these folks, because my son went through a “Dyerite” phase (heavily influenced by Jay Dyer). He’s out of it now, thank God, but it wasn’t fun for his family while it lasted.
Oh, they are notorious misogynists. Also anti-Semites. And, of course, rabidly anti-Catholic. Don’t get me started. 😀
A three-way crossbreed of QAnon, the Kardsshians, and Cage-Phase Net ORTHODOX! ORTHODOX! ORTHODOX!
Doug Wilson with Greek Theological Jargon, Hyper-Fasting, and lots of Incense.
(What’s the Greek for “PENETRATE! COLONIZE! CONQUER! PLANT!”?)
And more Russian ORTHODOX than Greek when it comes to GAWD H8S JEWS! JEWS! JEWS!
(After all, who invented the Pogrom?)
Don’t forget ZA PUTINA! ZA PUTINA! Z! Z! Z!
Just like Chairman Calvin’s Red Guard, Except ORTHODOXY! ORTHODOXY! ORTHODOXY!
Funny… Fr Orthocuban’s blog said that the usual way for Orthodox to flake out is the “Monk-a-Bee”, where the More Orthodox Than Thou take up all the trappings — long beard, black monastic robes, 24/7/365 fasting and devotions and “mortifications” — but never actually taking vows and putting themselves under the authority of a bishop or abbot. (Often taking his wife & family along for the Thrice-Holy ride.)
But then, these are probably Rabid Fundagelicals church-hopping for The One True Church (More Than Thou) who’ve gone On FIre for one church/parachurch/movement after another and have run out of One True Churches this side of the Adriatic. Fundamentalism is a state of mind that can attach itself to ANY belief system or ideology. (Not necessarily a religion — look at the Khmer Rouge.)
The key word here is INFLUENCERS.
INFLUENCERS as in who has the most upvotes on their 10-second TikTok dance videos.
INFLUENCERS as in enough Instagram filters on their face-time videos to make Shaka Zulu look like a Scandinavian Stripper.
INFLUENCERS as in Drink Bleach Challenges or Jump Off a Speedboat Moving at 50 Knots Challenges –
LIKE AND SUBSCRIBE!
Bingo, to use a Catholic term.
That.
Thank you, Max, for the link to the article by Maggie Phillips — Influencers Offer a New Challenge to Church Leadership. It reminded me of many of the the things you’ve written on TWW, as well as many other things I’ve read, heard, concluded, etc.
I’m not disagreeing with you, Linda 🙂 , nor am I wanting to cause you (or anyone else) any offence….
My gifts (some of which are gifts of the Holy Spirit) are not for evangelism as most people think of or mean when they refer to evangelism or the Great Commission. I almost never talk to people about specific aspects of any religion….I’m just me being me….a Christian who was baptized and saved at 6 months old, being the hands-and-feet of Christ on earth.
I’ve got different ways of letting people know they are loved, and that depends on each individual — and in at least one case, a group of individuals (omitting details for my safety and protection).
And I’ve got different ways of helping people bind up their wounds….and again, that depends on the individual (omitting details for my safety and protection).
researcher–we may be just talking past each other I think. I am saying that when, for a made up example, a neighbor has a sudden death in their family, we are NOT responsible to clobber them with a strong “well if they didn’t accept Christ as savior they are burning in hell” but ARE obligated or responsible to maybe make a casserole, offer to mow the lawn, be there while they cry, and listen, not try to have all the answers. And if they ask any questions (assuming they know we are Christians) to be able to assure them that much as they loved the person, God loves both the decedent and them even more.
If we want to share the Lord with the new family down the street, we might start with a pan of homemade cookies when they move in, then continue to try to be the hands and feet of the Lord. And yes, for some of us more introverted types maybe they never see us at all but we pray daily for them in secret.
More living out the sermon on the mount and less sermonizing is my view:)
Joy Huff,
Yes, I left CLC before Josh took the reigns, but a friend who knew him would tell me stories of running into him around town and him being so engaging, even after she left CLC. I think he really tried to deal with what he was handed, but it was a pile of #%$&! And I’m not surprised he left his faith because he lived all his life in a controlled bubble with no exposure to anything.
We live near Amish and Mennonite communities. When a young person starts questioning their faith and breaks from the community, they are shunned. It’s a struggle for them to merge into the “outside world.” The same thing happens to folks who know nothing but the aberrations of religious belief and practice … when they find freedom in Christ, they pay a price for that freedom.
It’s said that near the end of his life, Karl Marx said “I am not a Marxist”.
Same with Charles Darwin” “I am not a Darwinist”.
I chalk it up to fanboys taking up the ism and seeing how far they can run with it – all the way into the lunatic fringe.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Arminius wasn’t an Arminian, and certainly not a Remonstrant (a phenomenon of a political emergency after Arminius’ death from consumption when the Stadtholder threatened on the reformed church the same measures as the Spanish that had massacred Arminius’parents and siblings, when he was a teen staying elsewhere).
Wesley wasn’t an “Armenian” either, by the later definition.
Darwin’s books of identical title all said something completely different from one edition to the next, rather like Grudem’s latest “Bible downloads”.