Former Sovereign Grace “apostles” Dave Harvey, CJ Mahaney, Steve Shank, and Brent Detwiler.
In today’s post I will be highlighting the nearly extinct role of apostles in Sovereign Grace Churches, but before I do so I will tell you a little about my life in American “churchianity”.
I was born and raised in Minneapolis, MN and, like the majority of Minnesotans back in the late 1950’s I was raised in the Lutheran Church. It’s not unlike Bostonians – where, if that’s where you were born, you were likely to be raised in the Roman Catholic Church. My Mom upset the apple cart sometime when I was 10-12 years old. We had been attending St. Andrews Lutheran Church which was a small church located right across the street from us. Mom began attending bible studies led by a Baptist woman in the neighborhood (whose name I amazingly recall as Mrs. Hartzel. I believe her husband taught at Bethel Seminary.) and had a “born again” experience thanks to Mrs. Hartzel’s explaining the Gospel to her. Soon after, Mom decided she needed to find a new church. She and Dad settled on a Covenant church, which was amenable to my Dad because it was similar to the Lutheran church. I can’t recall the exact timeline but Mom soon started attending meetings with Lutheran and Roman Catholic charismatics. She also attended AGLOW meetings.
Eventually, I became a Christian, and while still in high school I started attending Bethany Fellowship in Bloomington, MN. Bethany was a community of charismatic Lutherans. They had many members who lived and worked on the grounds, their lives dedicated to the goal of sending out and supporting 100 foreign missionaries. Bethany made pop-up campers and had a publishing company. They also had a training school, mainly for young adults who had decided to be missionaries. There were some members who had jobs not related to Bethany, but they lived on campus and, as I recall, gave their paychecks to the church. They all ate meals together at a big cafeteria and attempted to live as the Christians did in the book of Acts. I was not a part of this, I just attended church services, as did many others. When I say they were charismatic, I am not referring to all the crazy stuff you see at, for example, Paula White’s church. No way! These were Minnesotans after all! Minnesotans are reserved folks, a trait passed on from their Scandinavian forbearers. I fit right in.
I won’t go into my lengthy history of churches attended, but will fast-forward to 2001, the year my family moved to Arizona. I had embraced the doctrines of Calvinism a few years prior to our move, my wife Sharon was, and still is charismatic. We had come from a PCA church, but my wife was hoping for something a bit more lively. My brother had a friend that he really respected who had moved from Boise to Phoenix and become a member of Sovereign Grace Gilbert (renamed Center Church – undoubtedly to keep church hunters from discovering all the negative information about the denomination). My brother told me Sovereign Grace was reformed and mildly charismatic. It sounded like a church where both my wife and I could be happy.
Sometime in 2002 we decided to join Sovereign Grace Gilbert so we attended a class on membership and then had an interview with Trey Richardson, an associate pastor and the father of the senior pastor, Rich Richardson. Trey asked us some questions and we apparently passed muster. He then asked if we had any questions, which I did. I asked what the deal was with Sovereign Grace having “Apostles?” I said I thought the requirement to be an Apostle was to have seen the risen Christ, and further, the only so-called Christian churches that claimed they had Apostles were, in my opinion, cults. Trey explained that the requirement to have seen the risen Christ was valid for “big A Apostles” but Sovereign Grace had “little a apostles.” I must have given Trey the impression that I had accepted his explanation, but I hadn’t. Were we allowed “do-overs” in life I would have skedaddled for the exit right then, but for reasons still unknown to me, we became members.
On the other hand, (cue the “Always look on the bright side of Life” from the movie “The Life of Brian”) if we hadn’t joined Sovereign Grace I wouldn’t be writing this blog right now.” But that’s another story.
Where do I stand today? I classify myself as a quasi-cessationist. I wouldn’t dare put God in a box. For example, I believe God can heal anyone at any time. But I believe much of what you see in the charismatic world is fake, a product of unbridled emotionalism. I do not believe the term “apostle” should be used by anyone today. I have had this conversation with my friend, Brent Detwiler, who, by the way, still would defend the way Sovereign Grace once defined “apostle.” One of my objections is that a biblical Apostle was widely recognized as such, and would go to a city where all Christians would recognize his position and authority. Such is not the case today. Could a Sovereign Grace apostle walk into any denominational church that is not a part of Sovereign Grace and be recognized as an apostle? No!
In my opinion, Sovereign Grace Churches have been slowly jettisoning their charismatic beliefs. I think CJ Mahaney is largely responsible for this. He desired to curry favor with Mark Dever, Ligon Duncan, Al Mohler, and John MacArthur and seemed embarrassed by the earlier charismatic bent of the denomination.
Below is a document by Bauer Evans, a former pastor in Sovereign Grace, authored in 2001. At that early date, Evans was lamenting the minimizing of their Charismatic distinctive. In 2019 Evans and several other churches in the New England area withdrew from SGC.
Notice in the SGC statement of faith below they say “our continuationist convictions regarding the Spirit’s ongoing ministry in the church.”
I paid a visit to my old church one summer while home on leave from Dubai. I believe the year was 2017. My two takeaways were the church, which was usually filled to capacity when I was a member, was only half full. Second, they were Charismatic in name only. The only hint you had during the service was the fact that they raised their hands while singing, but these days you can find many non-Charismatic churches that do that.
SGC now seems to be embarrassed by “apostles.” You will not find the word on their website. I did some searching and found the reference below in their 2021 Book of Church Order.
“Sovereign Grace churches allow for the belief in modern-day apostles or apostolic leadership without requiring it or explicitly featuring it in their polity.” I think this is mainly a bone SGC threw to the old-timers in their churches who still hold to apostles being an office for today. They don’t want to alienate any more churches.
Below is a short video from Mark Prater, the Executive President of SGC. (Second only to CJ Mahaney in the SGC hierarchy! I am joking. Sort of.)
Prater says they still believe in apostles, but in my opinion, he changes the definition from what they used to believe to now essentially being a missionary and/or a church planter. Who are these church-planting apostles? Prater doesn’t say. SGC leadership seems to have a problem admitting they were wrong. In the near future, I will write about them denying any part in sexual abuse and coverup in their denomination. Now we have evidence of them not being willing to admit that they no longer hold to the validity of apostles, or at least morphing the word into something quite different from their definition when I became a member in 2002.
Below is a statement on Apostles from Ligonier. I agree with their understanding of the office – “there are no apostles today.”
Apostles
“You are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone” (Eph. 2:19–20).
I have obtained some recordings of Covenant Life Church from a 2011 Membership Meeting. Josh Harris is responding to the breaking crisis in their denomination caused by the release of documents by Brent Detwiler. These documents were sent to all the pastors in Sovereign Grace and from there they were quickly leaked to the public. Harris said he quit believing in apostles in 2004, yet he played along with the charade.
I will leave you with a song from my talented sister-in-law. I believe it can be applied to SGC leadership. Thanks for reading!
Well, here’s what I always wondered about “apostles” and their timeline in church history. Scripture says:
“[His gifts to the church were varied and] He Himself appointed some as apostles [special messengers, representatives], some as prophets [who speak a new message from God to the people], some as evangelists [who spread the good news of salvation], and some as pastors and teachers [to shepherd and guide and instruct], [and He did this] to fully equip and perfect the saints (God’s people) for works of service, to build up the body of Christ [the church]; until we all reach oneness in the faith …” (Ephesians 4:11-13 AMP)
UNTIL we all reach oneness in the faith! I look around me and I see a multitude of expressions of faith which are not in oneness in regard to belief and practice. So does Christ keep giving these spiritual gifts (apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers) UNTIL we all get it right? After all, Scripture says that He’s coming back for a bride without spot or wrinkle … the organized church will need a good washing and ironing before that happens, IMO, to move us to unity in the faith.
‘One of my objections is that a biblical Apostle was widely recognized as such, and would go to a city where all Christians would recognize his position and authority. Such is not the case today.’
Could even Jesus be recognised by all Christians today?
The big names fuss over the charisms of the big names and squash or sabotage the gifts in ordinary pew goers’ lives during the week. Real apostles now are obscure people who pray a lot (it’s not a job title, it’s a ministry many partake in). Similarly the (real) prophetic, words of knowledge and wisdom, etc.
I was never interviewed to attend a new apostolic church so I felt comfortable being sceptical yet attending, unlike you. When the same bad ideas invaded main denominations I felt uncomfortable despite not having to pass an interview, because I expected better.
The more I read these stories in TWW, and just live my life and reflect, I am just amazed/disgusted by all of these clowns that self proclaim their titles.. and correspondingly, their “authority”.. key words here.. “self proclaim”
With their particular legacy of “apostles”, it’s a no brainer why they’d quietly abandon their self-entitled claims of “apostles”.
Apostle:
-The 12 selected by JC.
-Important leader of Early Church.
-the first successful Christian missionary in a country or to a people.
-“sent out”
Recognize Him?! Most churchgoers don’t even know Him! (at least they don’t act like they do). In the vast sea of “Christianity” today, there is just a sprinkling of Jesus. IMHO, He doesn’t show up in most churches; they are getting along just fine without Him. The authority and influence of Christ are waning in the American church.
… prove to be more annoying than anointed
Beware of any church leader who self-proclaims the office of apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor or teacher. Calling yourself one doesn’t make you one. Church history is littered with such counterfeits and the damage they have done.
“If you come across a preacher who has titled himself ‘Apostle’ or ‘Prophet’, RUN!”
— My writing parther (the burned-out country preacher in PA)
Positive moves by SGM over the last decade or two.
I think a (or perhaps “the”) key question is “sent by whom?”
Jesus was sent by the Father; the twelve (or the eleven) were sent by Jesus (Jn 20:21).
Present-day “sent ones” are sent by present-day groups. Naturally, their “authority” will not be unquestioningly acknowledged beyond their own sending groups. My perception is that in our day sent people are encouraged to believe that they are “sent by God”, analogously to Jesus and/or the Eleven + Paul. It might be better to lower one’s sights and recognize that one’s sentness is “from men.” One can hope that God is at work in it for good, but I think humility calls for retaining at a least a particle of doubt about that.
Interesting life story. Thanks for sharing. I too was part of the Lutheran Charismatic Renewal in the 1970s, but in California. I learned so much from the Lutheran church. And I agree with all who said that anyone who wants to give themselves a title, run. Run!
It might be better to lower one’s sights and recognize that one’s sentness is “from men.”
Samuel Conner,
With Southern Baptists, the “sent ones” are “sent” by Paul Chitwood and Kevin Ezell….. and their direct underlings.
Al Mohler’s buddies.
I wonder who “sends” the “sent ones” for Sovereign Grace?
To me, none of this is surprising. I can’t remember the phrase used in sociology to describe the process of what’s going on here, but basically, what’s occurring is that the leadership is locking down who has the authority in the organization. When CJ and the rest started “People of Destiny,” I’m sure there was a lot of “charismatic” flexibility and willingness to accept input from people who were not in the leadership. Decades on, this has hardened.
To give you a different example, back in the 1950s through the 1970s L. Ron Hubbard ran Dianetics/Scientology but in addition to selling his bloviations, the missions (not owned by Scientology but were franchises) would sell books by other people. After the 1982 missions conference, Scientology clamped down on the missions and regularized them. They had to do things *by the book*. The screws have been tightened even further over the last four decades. Now, missions are just tiny outfits run to recruit and feed interested persons to the larger orgs where they can be shaken down for $$$$$$$ervices.
What’s happening with SGM is the organization has become more hierarchical and top down over time and this clashes with charismatic expressions of faith. At the same time, SGM has changed its theology from one where there was room for charismatic expressions to one that appears to be bound by what appears to me to be a straitjacket of theology. I suspect SGM is going to dwindle over time and won’t last when the current leadership generation is no longer on the scene.
“‘For they prophesy falsely to you in My name; I have not sent them,’ declares the Lord.” (Jeremiah 29:9)
i.e Al’s little Dodeka playgroup.
Maybe clowns is too nice a word.
1 – Todd please convey to Rachel my appreciation for her songs.
2 – Todd as a “quasi-cessationist” can you be clear with me what template (paradigm) you choose to embrace.
Because if you say cessation or non cessation of Holy Spirit gifts is about the leadership, that is the same as YRR (both pretend charismatic and their pretend enemies). And if you say it’s about miracles it doesn’t make sense because miracles are relative – some big and some small. And if you say it’s about power, that’s again against the meanings of the prophets, Jesus and the apostles. And if you say it’s about “influencing” that’s the materialism of the YRR.
According to me, Jesus taught distinctly about both inbreathing, and about bestowal of the unvetoed gifts of the Comforter on their path from His Ascension to the room of supplicating. (The Pentecost occurrence was a re-filling with its own incidental style.)
Interpreting – discerning – wisdom – words of knowledge – explaining to each other the application of Scripture behind the superapostles’ backs – as we supplicate all week – that’s the true paradigm as I see it. When we embrace this template without permission of our betters, healthy “healings” and “tongues” MAY follow in proportion, for all I’ll know.
The superapostles whether CJ types, or their pretend enemies whom they consort with at T4G, like nothing better than when we throw our hands up and throw the core of the providential Gospel out. And when we reject specific strength for continual and effective supplicating for integrity in contingency (what the whole OT and NT are about).
Ava Aaronson,
🙂
I completely agree, Dee. At that point, what is left of SGM will likely be fully subsumed by the SBC, with the memory cast in the dustbin of history.
Why not?! Young SBCers have already been greatly influenced by Mohler’s SGM bud Mahaney.
Lowlandseer recently mentioned an article by Todd Pruitt https://www.reformation21.org/blog/you-probably-have-a-good-pastor
If he changed it to You Probably Have A Good Apostle I wonder if he’d need to change anything else? In addition to a hearty helping of hyperbole, he indulges in ascribing to 21st century pastors the things 1st century apostles said about themselves.
I attend a Calvary Chapel, which would never have existed without Frisbee and his charismatic friends. But a decade or two later, Smith boasts in his book of putting the Vulcan neck pinch on a poor fellow who was too exuberant during the “worship” time. It’s an image I can’t get out of my mind.
I’ve not finished reading the comments, so my apologies if my comment is a repeat of someone else’s….
Does this whole thing sound like those who a) have an honorary doctorate and insist on being called Dr., and / or b) people who INSIST they be called by their title?
Dave A A,
Misinterpreting patristic tradition’s focus on Pentecost as public epiphany of church, when the twelve are prominent within the narrative, has provided an excuse to the mentality of the “Vulcan neck pinch” on our gifts during our personal lives.
It has never mattered how staid our mannerisms looked or didn’t look during Service Times. It’s what works of mercy we ordinary pew goers do for each other the rest of the week (including intellectual ones) that makeup the real core of ecclesiology.
Forgetting that the birthday of the church is the walk from the Mount of Ascension to the room of supplication (weren’t there 150, mainly non elite?), by leading to indistinct teaching about Holy Spirit, left the door open for spiritual tyrannies of any superficial ideology.
In my late teens I had drummed into me how to get myself “born again” but there has been a lack of detail on “what happens next in the christian life” (with and without whipped up excitement). If they stunted me how many hundreds of millions of others did the “influencers” stunt?
Well, Calvary Chapel pretty much gave the left foot of fellowship to the people who founded the Vineyard churches because they were too charismatic. Then the Vineyard churches gave the Toronto Airport Vineyard (now known as Catch the Fire) the left foot of fellowship for being too charismatic, and I’m sure others have broken off from there.
Indeed. Entitlement.
“the belief that one is inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment. i.e. ‘…no wonder your kids have a sense of entitlement'”.
When God’s kids have a sense of enlightenment, apparently.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
The false interpretation (not confined to the denominations most commonly mentioned in these threads), that the fivefold ministry areas are under the sole veto of the elite, means that whatever titles the bosses give themselves this week, and / or the edifice of “christian doctrine” that they build upon those, always were going to be constantly shifting.
I knew a minister who left saying he wasn’t cut out for “pastoring” (what he had been brilliant at for years) and the next minute the assistant minister has been told he is “assistant pastor”. The latter’s sermons in themselves are brilliant, but the elders always seem to be pulling punches.
Leaderships can do some apostling for two hours on a Sunday; but the rest of us will take that over during the rest of the week.
All of the above including those with earned doctorates and ministry degrees who have not been truly called by God to lead and instruct His people. Preparing for the ministry does not equal being sent by God into it.
Michael – I will convey your message to Rachel. Thanks for listening.
I will try to be clear on what template I embrace. I do not believe one needs to be baptized in the Holy Spirit, which most Charismatics will say is evidenced by speaking in tongues. I have personally witnessed, on numerous occasions, leaders coaching people on how to speak in tongues. I’m still searching for someplace in Scripture where people need coaching to speak in tongues.
I dismiss 99% of the claims that so-called “modern day prophets” hear directly from God. Case in point is a woman named Liberty Turnipseed. (You can find her on YouTube.) She claims to hear from God on a daily basis and writes down what God has said to her. I made a video of her claiming that God told her He was like a giant super-flushing toilet! Most of her fellow charlatans claimed God told them that Trump would win the election in 2020.
I dismiss 99% of “words of knowledge” usually given from one of the “prophets” to a church member.
I dismiss claims from the Bethel Temple nuts that they have been caked with gold-dust from heaven. I made a video where a husband/wife team made this claim. He is the guy I labeled the “Peeing Pastor” because on a flight from Las Vegas to Detroit he urinated on a woman!
I can agree with your following words:
According to me, Jesus taught distinctly about both inbreathing, and about bestowal of the unvetoed gifts of the Comforter on their path from His Ascension to the room of supplicating. (The Pentecost occurrence was a re-filling with its own incidental style.)
Interpreting – discerning – wisdom – words of knowledge – explaining to each other the application of Scripture behind the superapostles’ backs – as we supplicate all week – that’s the true paradigm as I see it. When we embrace this template without permission of our betters, healthy “healings” and “tongues” MAY follow in proportion, for all I’ll know.
I don’t know if I have clarified my position, but it’s the best I can do.
From the OP:
That. 🙂
When I was checking around the Charismatics (outside term “Holy Rollers”), they’d always ask what Gift of the Spirit you wanted before they laid on the hands. And everyone would answer “Speaking in Tongues”. Tongues, Tongues, Tongues, Tongues, Tongues, Tongues, Tongues.
Was I the only one who would answer “Wisdom”?
Because Wisdom is the command control over all the others, indicating when to use them, and (more important) when NOT to.
Also, my writing partner (the burned-out country preacher) told me once that the reason everybody goes with Tongues is “It’s the easiest one to fake.”
Especially when it becomes a Litmus Test of Salvation. All you need to do is “Ronda Konda Shonda Pookie Poo Pookie Poo Pookie Poo” fast & furious, matching the rhythm of everyone tonguing around you. AKA “scat-singing in fractured Hebrew.” (There was one high muckity-muck in the SBC or NeoCal movement who when he went Charismatic, actually tongued be repeating “Pookie Poo” as fast as he could — “POOKIEPOOPOOKIEPOOPOOKIEPOOPOOKIEPOOPOOKIEPOO!”
There was only one place & time in my experienced where Tonguing didn’t sound like a forced performance art. That was at informal Charismatic Mass at Azusa Newman Center (RCC), circa 1980. The tonguing would begin softly at the point called “Elevation of the Host” and run for one to two minutes, ebbing and flowing like waves breaking on a beach, then eventually slowly fading into silence. At which point the priest (whose arms were probably starting to get tired from holding up the wafer) would resume Mass where he left off.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
I gotta admit, that comment had me laughing! Loved it.
Samuel Conner,
Great insight, Sam. I appreciate the comment.
Ain’t that the truth! I appreciate your comments Max.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Todd Wilhelm,
Todd, the reason some in the NT received in two halves was because they hadn’t had the entire distinct teaching. The normal norm or main norm is to have distinct teaching. Distinct believing comes from receiving distinct teaching.
Jesus inbreathed before Ascension AND Holy Spirit came after they left the mountain, which shows Holy Spirit both indwells and strengthens with providential gifts to share (the depiction of the Tree of Lives in the last 21 verses of Proverbs).
It wasn’t staged by any elite. Pretending the church didn’t exist before some fork-tongued publicity “blaze” is a trick to steal status from the 150 ordinary believers. Their supplicating some days before their re-infilling is our normal guided ministry.
Reject the usages of the blasphemers who ruined our lives with their cynical pincer movements. (New Testament usages are variable to catch out essentialists.)
The next time I am pressured I am going to say “hullabaloo yabbadabbadoo scoobydoo!” (My prayer language is lots of Glory Be’s which really flummoxes the “reformed characters”!)
Expect occasionally a (strictly non-intrusive, and even, to you, a moderately light hearted) word of knowledge from an ordinary and prayerful person, the meaning of which is NOT known to them, behind the church officers’ backs.
How about words of wisdom from your family members including the young.
Real prophecy has two esssential ingredients: it draws on principle and it calls to prayer. If it mentions the future at all (and often won’t) then it doesn’t spell out detail AND it is highly conditional upon principle and prayer.
Why did “christians” decide to look to church officers for permission to pray?
This reminds me of a Julie Andrews song . . .
Todd Wilhelm,
Todd, sorry that you had to go through the valley with these characters … but thankful that you didn’t waste the experience. Only those who have been in can help others out.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
There are some who really believe that if you’re not floppin’ around on the floor like a landed tuna, you haven’t really been ‘filled’ with the Holy Ghost.
They usually decide who’s really ‘saved’ and who ain’t too.
– Nowhere does Scripture say instruction should be shoddy (the cause of the problem) or that effects should be instantaneous
– It’s vital that we detach the phenomena from the terminology, often neither of which reflect a true concept
– It’s time to reexamine what Scripture means about being saved, and why self described “reformed evangelicals” abolished Assurance which still existed in some quarters in my childhood
By narrowing “spiritual gifts” to solely their version of apostling (distraction technique), they have effectively made those mean as little as they like, whenever they like. It leaves everybody else exactly where we were, namely without true agency.
An old senior elder of mine would create strange dynamics to ensure the genuine gifts of the congregation members (at prayer meetings and in their homes) were diverted ineffectively. A word of knowledge we understood, told us to attend to guidance about a building project just when our engineer was being stonewalled by said elder who pretended it was his project. (It got completed well after some delay in spite of him, but he left shortly after that.)
They are greatly deceived … God alone determines that.
The first time I saw this, one person was dancing something like the Charleston, repeatedly colliding with a pole. Another person was lying on his side and running in a circle.
Wasn’t that a Three Stooges shtick of Curly’s?
It was exactly the same thing, yes.
I was in a charismatic gathering once where a woman “slain in the spirit” lying in the pew across the isle from me peeked over the arm to see if I was looking at her.
Max,
Reeling, writhing, and fainting in coils, was the later 19 th century style.
Though the one “doing the Charleston right into the pole” sounds like Viral Video Pure Gold.
Another variant of “Whatever YOU do that I Don’t” as the Mark of the Beast.
I don’t know which blog this was on, but there was this one comment (first person or thrid) about someone whose Spritiual Gift was “Discerning” the Eternal Destiny of someone who died. He would apparently crash funerals to remind everyone there of this. Real classy.
On my bank of the Tiber there was a “Padre Pio”, an Italian priest around a century ago with a reputation as a miracle worker who would often be asked along the same lines by the surviving relatives and friends. Not only did he NOT volunteer the information (only answering when specifically asked), the worst he ever answered was a sorrowful “thee is no hope” or “they are gone”. Sorrowful, not Triumphant. Like how Larry Norman sang “I Wish We’d All Been Ready” in the Seventies compared to how it’s sung today.