Stephen’s Quintet-NASA
“If you can do not good, at least do not harm.” Kurt Vonnegut
Mucking with the Baptist Faith and Message
The Southern Baptist Convention made a grave mistake when the Baptist Faith and Message 2000 was developed. Had they claimed at that time that the lead/teaching/ whatever pastor was not open to women, they might have squeaked by and not be in this position today. Take a look at what the current one says about the church.
A New Testament church of the Lord Jesus Christ is an autonomous local congregation of baptized believers, associated by covenant in the faith and fellowship of the gospel; observing the two ordinances of Christ, governed by His laws, exercising the gifts, rights, and privileges invested in them by His Word, and seeking to extend the gospel to the ends of the earth. Each congregation operates under the Lordship of Christ through democratic processes. In such a congregation each member is responsible and accountable to Christ as Lord. Its two scriptural offices are that of pastor/elder/overseer and deacon. While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor/elder/overseer is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.
The New Testament speaks also of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all of the redeemed of all the ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.
Matthew 16:15-19; 18:15-20; Acts 2:41-42,47; 5:11-14; 6:3-6; 13:1-3; 14:23,27; 15:1-30; 16:5; 20:28; Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 3:16; 5:4-5; 7:17; 9:13-14; 12; Ephesians 1:22-23; 2:19-22; 3:8-11,21; 5:22-32; Philippians 1:1; Colossians 1:18; 1 Timothy 2:9-14; 3:1-15; 4:14; Hebrews 11:39-40; 1 Peter 5:1-4; Revelation 2-3; 21:2-3.
**Note: This article was amended June 14, 2023, by action of the 2023 Southern Baptist Convention**
Until this year, the highlighted part of the section was not included. Many churches had (and continue to have) women pastors and women ministers.
While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor/elder/overseer is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.
They should have added this definition in 2000. Now, they will continue to be the center of controversy for a long time to come. The leaders are fixated on this change, and the sex abuse implementation task force will take a back seat, IMHO. No women in the pastorate and serious sex abuse…what a combo!
Jonathan Howe is having a bad and good August.
On March 10, 2023, I wrote Do Some Leaders in the SBC Attend Churches in Which Women are Called Reverends and Ministers and Some Even Preach? Things Are Sure Confusing. Here is what I wrote about Jonathan Howe and his wife at that time.
Howe is the vice president of communications for the Southern Baptist Convention’s Executive Committeelink and link. His wife, Beth Howe, has accepted a call to Woodmont Baptist Church as Minister of Students & Discipleship. This church is SBC and is dually affiliated with the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship. Her title may be “Minister,” but the search committee defined the job position here.
Here are some interesting guidelines for the person who will fulfill this role
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The Minister of Students and Discipleship will be responsible for Student Ministry and church-wide discipleship while carrying on general pastoral duties as outlined below
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A man or woman whose life embodies the qualities of 1 Timothy 3:1-7 & Titus 1:6-9
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The candidate should have a desire for pastoral ministry within the church
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They must be able to recruit, train, and encourage leaders.
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They must also be theologically and biblically competent, able to “rightly handle the word of truth” (2 Tim. 2:15)
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Women serve in all levels of leadership according to their gifts and calling.
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Oversee groups and Bible studies by recruiting and training leaders, helping to choose curriculum, etc.
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The candidate must be qualified with spiritual gifts of shepherding, leadership, teaching, and discipling.
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Women serve in all levels of leadership according to their gifts and calling.
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Develop and lead our church in a gospel-centered discipleship strategy
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Teach and preach in accordance with gifting
Well, life got more exciting for Jonathan Howe in August when Willie McLaurin resigned because his biography was an adventure in fiction. Baptist News Global wrote New SBC head attends a dually aligned church and his wife is a ‘minister.’
The new interim president of the Southern Baptist Convention Executive Committee is a member of a church dually aligned with the SBC and the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship and where his seminary-educated wife holds the job title “minister of students and discipleship.”
Based on actions taken by messengers to the SBC annual meeting in New Orleans in June, Beth Howe would be one of the female ministers targeted by the so-called “Law Amendment” if ratified on second reading at next year’s annual meeting. That amendment would expel from the SBC any church that ordains a woman, allows a woman to preach or gives a woman the title of “pastor” in any way.
Although some SBC insiders are parsing the linguistic difference between the title “pastor” and “minister,” advocates for the resolution clearly do not see a distinction.
Jonathan Howe had two strikes against him before he even started his position.
First, His church is a member of the SBC and the CBF, the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship. This group formed in opposition to the Conservative Resurgence in the SBC. The SBC looks at the CBF with a slanted eye. Some suspect they are the dreaded “liberals” in Billie Graham’s clothing.
Those who opposed these changes referred to the process as, “The Fundamentalist Takeover.” Regardless of one’s approval or disapproval of the changes, all agreed that by 1991, the SBC had undergone a major transformation. That year, a group gathered in Atlanta representing active Southern Baptists who were displeased with the new direction of the SBC. This group formed a new body that was incorporated under Georgia law as the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship (CBF). The focus of CBF in those early days was to provide a place of fellowship for people who felt disenfranchised from the SBC and a funding channel for missionaries and new theological schools being birthed.
Today, CBF has grown far beyond its humble beginnings. Though many of the churches and individuals who partner together through CBF still have a connection to the SBC, CBF is recognized as a separate body, as evidenced by its admission as a member of the Baptist World Alliance (BWA), an organization of over two hundred international Baptist bodies. It is worth noting the SBC subsequently withdrew from the BWA.
According to Baptist News Global quoted above:
Today’s SBC leaders want nothing to do with CBF, which was created as a breakaway group from the SBC as fundamentalists gained control of the denomination. An unknown number of churches remain dually aligned with both the SBC and CBF and support both financially.
Second, Howe’s wife is a minister! This is a real problem.
Baptist News Global wrote:
(Howe’s) his seminary-educated wife holds the job title “minister of students and discipleship.”
…Beth Howe serves on staff at Woodmont Baptist Church in Nashville, a church essential to the formation story of CBF in 1991. At that time, the church’s longtime pastor was Bill Sherman, brother of Cecil Sherman, CBF’s first executive staff leader.
And the crazy begins with a statement from the pastor who assures all that the church is not one of those liberal types. (Dee is laughing at this point.)
Woodmont Pastor Nathan Parker weighed in at one point to say he does not personally support women serving as pastors and that Beth Howe was not hired to perform pastoral duties. He commended the couple for their leadership in the church and said Beth Howe feels called to her “ministerial” role but not to be a “pastor.”
Woodmont’s pastor, Nathan Parker, attempted to downplay the problems.
Baptist Press posted Woodmont’s pastor addresses SBC, CBF ties and history.
The church members are not thrilled with the goings on in the SBC.
After the Southern Baptist Convention annual meeting, many people in the church Nathan Parker pastors were upset.
“They had heard press reports coming out of the convention and asked if we could face it,” he told Baptist Press. “Some members were calling for us to withdraw from the SBC.” So Parker called a town hall meeting.
The church is known for its key leadership in forming the CBF.
Bill Sherman, Woodmont’s pastor for 30 years, led the congregation when the church was an early member of the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, a breakaway group that emerged in the early 1990s following the SBC’s Conservative Resurgence. Sherman’s brother, Cecil, was a key leader – arguably the key leader – among that group while serving as pastor of First Baptist Church in Asheville, N.C.
Impt: If you read one thing, read this. They changed the job description so that Howe would not sound like she was functioning as a pastor.
“Originally, we wanted Beth’s position to be for a male pastor. But when she emerged as the best candidate, we changed the job description to remove some of the 1 Timothy elder-qualification [language] because she’s not an elder and doesn’t want to be an elder. None of the women on our staff want to be elders or pastors.”
Pastor Nathan Parker makes a big deal that he believes in male headship, but he doesn’t make a big deal about it.
in the town hall meeting, Parker taught for 30 minutes from Genesis 1-2 about the “God-given, lovingly designed, spiritual male headship to be exercised in the church and the home” as he saw it. He added that he did not see it as a Gospel or salvific issue “as long as we are still submitting ourselves to the authority of Scripture.”
However, thanks to Jerome, we have the original job description from WayBack: https://web.archive.org/web/20230310223609/https://www.woodmontbaptist.com/jobs
{Update} Jerome raised the following questions:
Is it the original job description or the one tailored for Beth Howe? How can it be the original (which was for a “male pastor,” according to Parker) when it says the job is for a “man or woman,” “Women serve in all levels of leadership,” etc.? But how can it be the altered job description (which removed elder/pastor language, according to Parker) when there is mention of “pastoral duties’, I Timothy elder-qualification, “candidate should have a desire for pastoral ministry within the church,” etc.?
It’s a game, Jerome, a game!!!!
Apparently, the members of Woodmont are not particularly friendly-minded towards the SBC.
Parker’s congregation consists of many who remember the division of the Southern Baptist Convention in the ‘80s and early ‘90s differently than the majority of the SBC today.
“There are folks who were deeply wounded by those on the SBC side,” said Parker, a Nashville native who became Woodmont’s pastor in January 2017. “There’s real trauma there, from both sides. Mud was thrown in both directions.”
The church still gives significant money to some areas of the SBC.
The “vast majority” of those gifts go toward the Lottie Moon Christmas Offering, Parker said. Woodmont gave $42,134 to that offering in 2022.
Woodmont played a game with the definition of “minister,” and so will other churches.
Reread the following.
“Originally, we wanted Beth’s position to be for a male pastor. But when she emerged as the best candidate, we changed the job description to remove some of the 1 Timothy elder-qualification [language] because she’s not an elder and doesn’t want to be an elder. None of the women on our staff want to be elders or pastors.”
It is my opinion that most churches will change the titles of “pastor” and “minister” to “Director,” “Head,” “Supervisor,” “Skipper.” or “Head Honcho,” amongst others, and things will carry on as before. Times are changing, and hiring qualified people to handle these huge churches is difficult.
Jonathan Howe wants to ignore sex abuse victims and shouldn’t be in his position in the first place.
Guidepost documents various details from this period, including an Oct. 16, 2019, email to Floyd from Jonathan Howe, Executive Committee vice president for communications, who said: “The ‘survivor community’ is all up in arms about things they have no clue about” and “online survivor folks, they just want to burn things to the ground.”
His advice to Floyd: “They just have to be ignored. They don’t reason; they don’t listen.”
Games are being played on all levels. At this point, I don’t trust Howe in any leadership position, nor should any sex abuse victims. The SBC is insincere, shrewd, and sneaky regarding women and sex abuse victims. So glad to be out!
Dee, what a sad summary: Games are being played on all levels. At this point, I don’t trust Howe in any leadership position, nor should any sex abuse victims. The SBC is insincere, shrewd, and sneaky regarding women and sex abuse victims. So glad to be out!
My suggestion to SBCers would be to find a better place to go to church and a better place to donate your money. Better not to be involved in these kinds of shenanigans.
PS Stephan’s Quintet is a fantastic compact galaxy cluster. One of the galaxies (middle left) is actually about 10 times closer (40 million light years) than the other four (300 million light years, which are gravitationally interacting. There’s something amazing about looking at these pictures, considering the distances and sizes involved, and then confessing that it really is beyond human comprehension.
Old Timer,
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
I added an update from Jerome in the post. I didn’t want you to miss it.
Old Timer,
Thank you for the comment.
The tale that Woodmont’s Senior Pastor Nathan Parker told in the Baptist Press article, of the job description being changed from being ‘for a male pastor’ to being a ‘non-elder/non-pastoral’ position tailored for his preferred candidate Beth Howe, does not match the document saved at the Internet Archive (the description of the position that is no longer on church’s jobs page):
https://web.archive.org/web/20230310223609/https://www.woodmontbaptist.com/jobs
The job description does not match Senior Pastor Nathan Parker’s description of the purported original document OR the altered one.
It can’t be the original, which was for “for a male pastor” according to Parker, since it says the job is for a “man or woman”, “Women serve in all levels of leadership”, etc.
But it can’t be the altered job description, which removed elder/pastor language according to Parker, since there is mention of “pastoral duties’, I Timothy elder-qualification, “candidate should have a desire for pastoral ministry within the church”, etc.
Aaaaand once again, the internet keeps record.
Hmmm, Daughters of Stan, Watchbloggers, take notice. The internet is an information highway. High speed at that. Unstoppable. Unfiltered.
By the way, “Why Nations Fail” by Daron Acemoglu and James A. Robinson, notes in Chapter 8, that after the Printing Press was invented, this new technology spread quickly in the 1460’s and 1470’s, EXCEPT where some leaders (Ottoman sultans, etc.) FORBID the printing press.
Fear of information spreading, by questionable fearful leaders, continues with new technologies today.
Gid bless the information highways of new technologies.
Uhm, I’m dizzy now……..
Are the members who attend on a regular basis aware of the illusions, elusions, delusions, and prestidigitations going on right in front of them……. in the name of God?
The President/CEO of the SBC Executive Committee is also the Treasurer of the SBC, oversees day to day operations (unlike the the SBC President who only presides at the Annual Meeting and appoints some committees). Just a handful of men have held the the position since its creation a century ago, some serving for multiple decades. But in recent years there has been quick turnover: Frank Page resigned due to an ‘inappropriate relationship’; his corrupt VP Augie Boto was interim for a year; RonnieFloyd held the post for a few years resisting abuse reforms, then resigned; his VP Willie McLaurin was interim for a year and a half until his degree fraud was ‘discovered’; now another of RonnieFloyd’s VPs is interim: Jonathan Howe (Augie Boto’s successor as SBC spokesman).
The Howes were previously at Augie Boto’s church Forest Hills Baptist:
https://twitter.com/Jonathan_Howe/status/1006620313977843712
“Listening to my fellow @fhbcnashville church member, Augie Boto, give the @SBCExecComm report.”
“Woodmont Pastor Nathan Parker weighed in at one point to say he does not personally support women serving as pastors … and said Beth Howe feels called to her “ministerial” role but not to be a “pastor.””
+++++++++++++++++++++++
Seems to me Nathan Parker is using & exploiting the human being known as Beth Howe so he can reap both the benefits of her pastoral work and those that come with his association and standing with the SBC.
while pretending he’s doing no such thing.
i believe the operative words are
lying
self-serving
hypocrite
…or am i missing something?
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
“Are the members who attend on a regular basis aware of the illusions, elusions, delusions, and prestidigitations going on right in front of them……. in the name of God?”
+++++++++++++++++++++
i believe christian culture commends this as ‘faith’.
and ‘prestidigitations’ is the koolest word i’ve heard in a long time.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
“Stephan’s Quintet is a fantastic compact galaxy cluster”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
it’s like looking at collections of heavy diamonds on a piece of fabric, stretching it down super far into deep pockets.
and each bunch of diamonds is the size of the milky way (give or take a light year or two)
…and it’s like looking into a teacup at the tea leaves at the bottom of the cup, but the tea leaves are the milky way.
it gives the impression that you can go around the teacup that houses the galaxy, and that the trip around the teacup would be a relative short distance compared to the vast distance of the galaxy itself inside.
could this be true?
Old Timer,
“what a sad summary: Games are being played on all levels.”
++++++++++++++++
it’s as seemingly mind-bending as the image of the galaxies in their teacups.
…but really, it’s just a matter of some powerful people lying
and drawing circles and calling them squares,
and everyone else in the org believing in the square circles, by faith.
.
.
i see things like this in every church i’ve been a part of.
beyond delighted that i’m out of the fabric of christian culture, gazing at it from a distance in macabre fascination.
Is this the SBC takeover of the CBF? I’ve watched “multiple affiliations” at close quarters.
An interesting subtlety of English grammar: in the OP title, who is the subject of “and insulted abuse survivors”. Based on “proximity”, one might assume that it is Howe’s wife and that’s how I read it at first, but the OP content makes clear, toward the end, that it is Howe himself.
I guess I’m not a great interpreter of modern English texts.
—
Regarding “minister”, one could argue that that’s simply “servant”, aka “deacon”. There is a famous female in Scripture who is called this: Phoebe in ch 16 of Paul’s letter to Rome.
An interesting detail about Phoebe — she is regarded by many to have been the person to whom Paul entrusted his letter for delivery to the churches at Rome. There are some, for example Scot McKnight, who believe that she would not only have physically delivered the letter, but would have publicly read it in each of the house churches to whom Paul wanted it read. And not read it only, but explained it, answering questions that may have arisen in the course of its reading. It would have been the equivalent of a long sermon (try reading Romans out loud at one sitting).
If this is right, perhaps it could be argued in favor of a revision of BFM2000 restrictions on what females are allowed to do — based on the Paul/Phoebe precedent, females are allowed to read sermons to the whole congregation, provided that the sermon was written by a male.
I live in Nashville and have known of Woodmont for many years; my wife and in laws were both members and I was pastoring here at the same time the former pastor was there.
Some observations. Woodmont was a powerhouse Tennessee CBF church under Bill Sherman and continued to be a major moderate church under its next pastor. As I remember Parker was called as interim pastor and later as pastor. His observations about “. . . mud being thrown in both directions may be his thought, but he was not at Woodmont during its CBF days. I may be incorrect, but Woodmont has women deacons, so I wonder if that will become a factor.
Since Parker assumed the pastorate, CBF is mentioned in the church bulletin as an alternate place for members to direct their funding.
Woodmont broadcasts their worship services, so it has been interesting to follow Parker’s theology. He appears to be a NeoCal from his comments, the authors he quotes in his sermons, and on one Sunday Ray Ortlund (Immanuel Nashville) preached.
Woodmont is not the church it used to be and most of the members that remain who were CBF are growing old. All it will take for this church to fully change its stripes over the next few years are for a few older members to pass on.
Luckyforward,
Thank you for your comment. Good history.
Jerome,
What’s going on? Is Parker trying to straddle, albeit ineffectually, the various groups? Do you know if he is a Calvinist?
You just can’t make stuff this crazy up, can you?
And where I live, deep in the heart of this nation, conservative Christians both evangelical and liturgical are straying into even crazier territory.
They are mixing politics, religion, and medical practice into an unholy trinity. Right now the buzz goes something along these lines. “God sent the Jews a savior and they crucified him. God sent America a savior and the doj and the courts are trying to crucify him now. And since we believe in the second amendment and have our guns, we are prepared to protect him. And now they tell us covid numbers are rising and the at risk should maintain on boosters with a new one next month, wear those n95s again, and avoid crowds. Yeah, they really want us to take the mark of the beast so they know who to kill when the fbi and government agents go after us like they are going after him. Own the libs! Send him money, refuse masks, refuse to avoid crowds, and above all refuse the shots.”
I am honestly beginning to believe we have a pandemic of stupidity.
Well this is certainly troubling:
Parker preaching Jan. 1, 2023 (beginning a ‘Marks of a Healthy Church’ sermon series)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAtTjQm6vv4
at 33m45s
“A lot of you know that, uh, our, our personnel committee graciously, uh, gave me a sabbatical last year…in Washington, DC…at Capitol Hill Baptist Church…I got to go to seminars and spend time with the, the leaders of Capitol Hill Baptist Church, including Mark Dever who’s been the, the Senior Pastor there for 25 years now. Dever wrote a book…called ‘Nine Marks of a Healthy Church’.”
Probably not.
The guys that promote this stuff are VERY GOOD TALKERS who could sell Amana freezers to the Eskimos.
And even if they were (members aware), they don’t give a flyin’ eff.
Just don’t mess with the social events Calendar and the potlucks.
Well, there it is then. The end!
I now see Nathan Parker came to Woodmont Baptist from Forest Hills Baptist (Augie Boto’s church), same as the Howes.
Jerome,
“…a sabbatical last year…in Washington, DC…at Capitol Hill Baptist Church…I got to go to seminars and spend time with the, the leaders …Mark Dever …wrote a book…called ‘Nine Marks of a Healthy Church’.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
perhaps it’s unkind and uncharitable to describe Nathan Parker’s actions (saying one thing and doing another w/regard to Beth Howe) as
lying
self-serving
hypocrite
As I see it, lying, dishonesty, manipulation, self-serving, and hypocrisy (the short list) are simply baked into the ‘Nine Marks of a Healthy Church’ and other How-To programs for the church leadership industry.
It’s all shrouded in so-called biblical stuff and Gospel-language.
Just like the language used at the multi-level marketing conference i kindly accompanied my friend to.
it was amazing – i never imagined things like manipulation, coercion, deception, trickery, & half-truths could sound so tear-jerkingly heroic & righteous.
it was like they were saving the world with their product and sales program.
the church leadership industry is so very similar.
as i see it.
A sermon talking about “this thing you probably haven’t heard of before, ‘covenant membership'” and quoting Mark Dever was the beginning of the takeover at Sun River Church.
Woodmont Baptist Church, you’ve been forewarned.
I’m surprised/not surprised that the “9Marks of a Healthy Church” don’t include:
listening to others well, playing nice
no exploitation of the good will of others
no telling lies
taking ownership of harms done to others, no minimizing, and doing this publicly if the harm was public
making amends, including timely sincere apology and repentance
or generous release and safe distance for those in the fallout of the unrepentant
being law abiding – no human exploitation or trafficking,
no stealing
expectations and demonstrations that the above start with leadership, if the church is hierarchical. They GET to be FIRST.
…
zero tolerance for particular clergy abuses that would not pass the light of day test.
Dr. Bill Sherman, the pastor that got the church into CBF has retired and has rejoined Woodmont. Once a month he has a devotional with pizza for the seniors; he will stay out of the fray.
As the members who, long ago, supported Dr. Sherman with CBF pass off the scene, the current pastor will be safe to head towards 9Marks. He won’t challenge the “pillars” of the church . . . or their pocketbooks.
Those who sell their souls to a cult, well, they sell their souls to a cult. To belong or not to belong; that is the question.
‘Parker taught for 30 minutes from Genesis 1-2 about the “God-given, lovingly designed, spiritual male headship to be exercised in the church and the home” as he saw it.’
Very far from being the obvious thing to preach about from those chapters. In fact The Torah: A Modern Commentary points out that the making of the woman was all God’s doing and the man had nothing to do with it at all, so the question of male Vs female is irrelevant.
The current tendency to define the difference between churches as liberal or conservative based on a number of hot potato issues will, I think, cede to a distinction between churches which can or can’t get on with anyone else without stamping their foot and screaming.
Here in the UK increasingly church buildings are joint ones (usually in variations of Methodist, Church of England and United Reformed) and often only have one minister. Problems of orders are dealt with by having a C of E priest and there are places in Birmingham where if you want your baby baptized you get offered a choice of denominations’ services and the service will be authorised by any of the denominations.
I’m not seeing any ructions over this either.
Way back in the mists of time when I was a young kid, church WAS NOT an industry.
I went to a Lutheran Church high on a bluff over looking a river that meandered through a town in which the old world shadows still hung heavy in the air.
Old folks still spoke Polish and Italian on Summer evening porches.
Back in those days, you (generic you) put on your Sunday best, went to service, socialized with people afterwards, and that was that.
It’s only over the last 40-50 years or so that ‘Church’ has morphed into an industry.
Kinda-sorta Off Topic….and I’m copying-and-pasting this (with some minor additions by me) from FreshGrace’ comment on Dee’s recent post Here Are Wayne Grudem’s 83 Rules for What Women Can and Can’t Do in a Church. They Are Illogical, Inconsistent, and Discriminatory.
FreshGrace wrote:
(Bold done by me.)
That.
So did Beth apply for the job, they considered her even though the job was clearly for a male, and then when she out-shone all the male applicants, they decided the best way to deal with this was not to correct her for even applying for a job that is clearly for a male, but to change the job description? I am having trouble, like Nancy2 said, following this path/keeping score.
“It’s a game, Jerome, a game!”
The best summary of it all! And what’s the point of the game? That the winners keep on winning.
This may be prophetic. Search Pub Med for
COVID neurological sequelae
hmmm … 300+ pages of hits, 10 articles per page.
Here’s the first item in the list, as of this day and time:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35633158/
I think one could argue that stupidity was pretty widespread before the pandemic, but the pandemic may be making the problem worse.
We really do linda, we really do. (pandemic of stoopid)
It makes me think of the scene in the film Soylent Green where old timey actor Edward G. Robinson weeps into his hands saying:
“How did we come to this?”
Samuel Conner,
Thanks! It really does make sense. As to social isolation, that never happened here as everyone pretty much rebelled against that. Churches refused to close, people still gathered in homes for large parties, etc. But as you can imagine we were hit very hard. CNN sent trucks to put us on the news. FEMA sent us body trucks. NYT put out a whole documentary on our area. Plus several shorter stories. Our death rate in original covid and delta were off the charts high. Many of our dead were younger people.
And now it seems no matter how stupid an idea is, people are gullible to follow it provided it shores up their beliefs that they are superior stock, specially anointed by God, won’t face any judgment when they stand before God, and that resisting the government in all its many forms and branches is the first duty of mankind and highest value to uphold.
Our kids still read poorly, cannot do simple math, and do not behave in school. Some cultural factors yes. Some poor nutrition yes. Some parental drug and alcohol use during pregnancy causing issues yes. But that was all there before covid. So in theory we should be back to that level, not this worse level. And yes some kids did not do well with remote schooling. But here at least schools opened up late 2020, early 2021 depending on the town. By now even if those kids are not where they would have been if covid never happened they should be making progress forward. But they seem stuck wherever they were not when the schools shut down, but when they had covid. Educators in the family in another state where the lockdown was enforced, remote learning was done correctly, masking was enforced when school reopened, and shots were wildly popular in comparison are not having these issues. Kids are right on track where they should be in those schools.
Makes me worry what kind of sick world my grands are going to have to navigate.
When I think about it, I feel quite depressed; I try to not think about it.
I’ve known individual people who, it seemed to me, were trapped in self-destructive cycles of behavior/consequences. This has that feel to me — the wisdom that societies (it isn’t just US; I think this is happening all over the world) need to preserve themselves is being degraded by the current responses, and a downward spiral seems likely.
It’s kind of odd, seeing people who are committed to the idea that it’s important to persuade others to make changes to avoid terrible post-mortem consequences, running such risks of significant pre-mortem consequences, not to mention mortality itself. Perhaps it’s an evil fruit of the pre-occupation with post-mortem concerns to the near exclusion of “under the sun” wisdom considerations that seems to me common among Evangelicals.
It’s depressing, and I have no idea what to do about it aside from trying to persuade people within my limited social reach to protect themselves (I’ve been handing out N95s since late 2021).
And there is no avoiding the wider consequences, even if one is able to delay contracting the disease. To adapt a famous OT saying (can’t locate the reference, but I’m confident it’s in the Prophets or Wisdom books), when a civilization self-destructs, everyone goes down with it.
NOT “perhaps”, Sam.
DEFINITE.
Remember this from the CHRISTIAN Governor of Mississippi, August 2021?
Back when the Bible Belt started leading the country in lowest vaxx rates and highest COVID body counts?
“I’m often asked by some of my friends on the other side of the aisle about COVID… and why does it seem like folks in Mississippi and maybe in the Mid-South are a little less scared, shall we say”
“When you believe in Eternal Life — when you believe that living on this earth is but a blip on the screen, then you don’t have to be so scared of things”
(Took some searching to find this quote; had to sift through a lot of “COVID as Mark of the Beast” and “COVID ias Sign of then End Times” up front in the search results.)
Factor in the Dunning-Kruger Effect (the more stupid you are, the smarter you THINK you are) and the Arrogance of God’s Speshul Pets who Can Do No Wrong…
Woodmont has an interesting history. It’s founding pastor was G.P. West. A very strong and conservative pastor. Bill Sherman followed him. Dr. Sherman was one of the leading group against the Conservative Resurgence in the SBC. Bill Sherman, his brother Cecil Sherman, Ken Chaffin, John Claypool, and a host of other moderates were in control of the denominational institutions by the 1960s. The CR upset every bit of that. The moderates left and founded the CBF. One can look up the doctrine and trajectory of the CBF.
Sherman was a fighter. When the SBC turned in a direction against his leading, he kept fighting. I think the SBC fight may have permanently affected him for a time. He started fighting his own people. Woodmont imploded in the last years of his leadership. Hundreds of members were leaving simply because Bill was so cantankerous. They joined other churches in town.
Sherman also left, but to his credit he went to a rural church, First Baptist of Fairview, as basically an intermin that lasted for a long time. The SBC battles were over, and I think Bill returned to simply being a pastor. Bill just did the normal pastoring gig and I think did a really good job there for many years.
Woodmont hired a guy named John Roebuck (I think that was his name). Roebuck was a nice guy, but not particularly strong. The CBF agenda appeared to be prominent at the Church. The speakers they would bring in were old liberals from the SBC past or CBF folks.
Roebuck went to be on staff at Belmont University.
Woodmont did a pastoral search. It was not easy. It’s a very small church now. It’s in a wealthy area of town, but not where you’re going to find a lot of old fashioned Baptists. Woodmont’s location (Green Hills) was the hot suburban location from 1950 through the mid 1980s. But after that – Nashville’s suburbs moved out.
Woodmont found Nathan Parker at Forest Hills, a church which is 6 miles south of Woodmont on the same street – Hillsboro Pike. Forest Hills became a refuge for many people who fled Woodmont in the days of Bill Sherman.
A few people at Woodmont still care about the CBF stuff, but most do not. They are just trying to hang on and build a church that is probably a 10th the size of what it was. There are lots of sweet people there.
Woodmont wants what most evangelical churches want – good preaching from someone who believes the Bible. They really don’t want a lot of neoorthodoxy and platitudes, and continued movement in an unfaithful direction on areas like sexuality, which is what they will get in the CBF. But they also would never go for a Paige Patterson protege.
Nathan Parker is a good guy. Solid on the Christian essentials. Believes the Bible. But he was probably not even born during the CR days. Most young pastors in the SBC are that way.
So Nathan wants to honor the older folks who are there. Let them give to the CBF. But he is never going to promote the CBF. It’s not surprising to me that Mark Dever would appeal to him. Dever really wasn’t invovled in the CR. Dever is educated, doesn’t sound like a hick, and is relatable to a younger generation, and he believes the Christian essentials. Dever doesn’t give off that liberal icky feel that so many guys in the mainline have.
Nathan Parker is trying to ride the middle. Do the preaching, the marrying, and the burying and be faithful. Over 10 years or so, Woodmont will have no vestige of the CBF. It won’t be like First Baptist Dallas either. It will be different.
I don’t know Howe or his wife. I don’t think Howe is a good fit for the SBC job, but I don’t know who is. And I don’t know many who want that job.
Educated in faux gormlessness (visible in videos)?
Good idea.
(Beware: intercommunion is very different because it is organisational – do not participate in intercommunion.)
Samuel Conner,
It was in the literature by January 2020 that the well known covids are systemic infections. Professions don’t seem to do immune reactions (and I’m not going to further comment on politics) and obviously the covids were going to complicate previous illnesses in remission.
Professions think anything above the shoulders isn’t part of your body, copying the “christian industry”.
Our “government” even claimed to abolish the 6 ft rule and it was exploited by police stalkers. Core benefits are always vulnerable in chaos like this. It’s also noticeable that excess deaths fell below January 2020 estimates for the following 2 and a half years.
If you can’t credit the spiritual outlook of those around you entrapped by the christian industry, please may I respectfully suggest to most of you to properly critique their stance on everything else and don’t just go for low hanging fruit / accept the paradigm of package dealing / all or nothing thinking.
Politicised studiers probably don’t want to look at the effects of distancing more severe than 6 ft. Here we don’t have regional differences and from what I hear children are in a mess everywhere. Children were being ordered to school simultaneously with breadwinners being put away for 14 days. Some countries outside America have been ruined for years already, by dodgy contracts.
The lack of articulacy of christians is something we agnostics should make up for, not use it as precednt to swing in whatever “equal and opposite” direction (material dialectic).
The inarticulate christians are only going to point a finger at you because you contradict them. No-one accuses me for my stances because I insist on picking every issue apart to find stronger arguments for safety policies bodily and spiritual and not weaker ones. I no longer talk about my most grave reasons for belatedly getting like this (what I witnessed in a religious context which is what Dee’s blog is about).
linda,
(A link to a post is following on from the subject, and often not getting at the poster’s points of view.)
A politician over here attempted to publicly shame a bloc of home addresses (whether because of their immune characteristics or something else, I haven’t figured out).
Perhaps I’m pre-empting the spiral that comments went down several times in the last few years.
Those in power set the rules in games. Churches are so harmonious due to playing along. If we powerless see a better way but we’re inarticulate, what we say comes out inarticulate.
Publicly undermining state measures that are good is not a layperson-led movement, it is clergy led. Laypeople try to adapt their circumstances with good will, but what they say was put in their mouths by clergy and clergy henchpeople (I know about henchpeople).
Half truths are superficially plausible due to mixing some less bad arguments with the more bad ones.
Did action get delayed for some months (by those in power) in your localities (unlike Sweden)?
A state enforced decree is what it is (and may be part good in merit).
Planning a lot or a lttle, and when, and incorporating what ideas, is planning.
With my narrow nose (on the inside) I was shut out of where I was shut out of.
We can’t not go to (fill in blanks) like we can stop going to churches (and churches should legitimately be social fabric incidentally). Of course everyone feels panicky.
(I stopped going to churches due to what I saw there before the epidemic. How many people tried or wanted to look me up?)
Natural jstice everywhere includes allowing ordinary people agency to devise their own application with good will.
In America are you too used to immediately doing as your Puritan colony heads / pastors say? (E.g intrusion by circumcising).
Another example: not using your individual heads to work out your own fitting into religion that would be genuinely beneficial to others’ integrity?
It’s not realistic to portray everything as sunshine on whatever side of the street isn’t those being targetted by comments, by failing to identify ringleaders and ideas of mixed merit everywhere.
The Moody Institute marketed premium religion. I think what you are seeing in some districts is a ready packed clergy initiative cunningly labelled as self reliance. (I’ve seen more sophisticated than that.)
Rebels may be exaggerating part of the merit in the case they claim to be putting forward on your behalf; as may be bosses on the other side to some extent sometimes.
Religion taught ordinary people on the breadline to forget about their sense of self, thought, words or conduct. I can guarantee you Rev Dever gets a LOT of coaching on his slightest gesture.
I think you “regulars” add value to your denominations (and indirectly to the calibre of agnostics), by going above and beyond what your elders teach. Religion in the UK is similar, only politically significant.
I don’t know if Nathan Parker is “a good guy” or not. In terms of his theological transparency and the direction he wants to take Woodmont, he could be more forthcoming, as the situation about reworking the job description suggests.
On the other hand Woodmont bears responsibility in calling a pastor that came from Forest Hills (where most of the Woodmonters went when they got upset at Bill and is very conservative today) as well as looking at his educational roots: Beeson (M.Div) and his D.Min. from an extremely conservative church of Christ school (Lipscomb). Not a lot of “non NeoCal” education in either place.
Nathan may want to “honor the older folks that are there” but the direction the church takes when these folks pass on will be interesting to watch.
Everybody should be assumed to be wanting to pull together in wider society unless obviously directly incited. Church leaders set the example to single out and finger wag re. difference in mannerism. According to Jesus we should be wary of authority in church.
The good thing about being old is that slow thinking pays off – a cack handed paradox maybe . . .
Samuel Conner,
Totally agree that everyone goes down when their culture self destructs. My worry for the kids and grands, not myself, is probably due to being in my mid 70s. Gonna self destruct soon anyway lol. But they face a possible long time in a dying culture.
Oh, another thing. Woodmont discovered that their former music minister was looking for gay sex on the internet.
When he was busted, some of the CBF types did not want him fired. They wanted to keep him.
Looks like even The Unpardonable Sin of HOMOSEXUALITY is OK if you’re a highborn ManaGAWD.
Must be great being one of God’s Special Pets.
Michael in UK,
I meant “insignificant”.
My point overall: don’t fight on the chosen ground of the theodudes / fundies / new apostolics / dominionists.
Paul wrote assuming letters were read en route and that previous correpondence raaiused specific situational queries. His occasional asides were to show belief in Jesus doesn’t conflict fundamentally with secular agnostic systems. His stance to authority was realistic and where possible benevolently neutral (perhaps authority secular and spiritual was less intrusive then?)
Don’t virtue signal. Don’t adopt the theodudes / fundies / new apostolics / dominionists’ basis for readings at all.
You have to prove you have MORE Bible belief than they do.
Fundies distort the implications of genuine issues, because superstition suits their Scripture-discrediting intentions.
That’s why not to get distracted from faith by headline hot button issues (avoid making them part of faith, only different from the fundies’). Set the example of everyone having a unique contribution to make to those.