Here Are Wayne Grudem’s 83 Rules for What Women Can and Can’t Do in a Church. They Are Illogical, Inconsistent, and Discriminatory.

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The Complaining Pharisee- Public Domain

“A Pharisee is hard on others and easy on himself, but a spiritual man is easy on others and hard on himself.”  AW Tozer


In 2012, I wrote a post that has held its own in discussions surrounding the Pharisaical-type Calvinists who demand submission for women. The question frequently arises, “What can women do in the church?” The frequent answer is, “Not much.” Wayne Grudem, a beloved Calvinist above many Calvinists, sought to answer the question. He dug himself a hole so deep that he is struggling to forget about it. Has he ever repented of the following, or has he revoked the article? Well, not that I can tell. It was published by the Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood in 1995, and you can be sure CBMW hasn’t repented either.

A link to Wayne Grudem’s 83 Rule that keeps disappearing.

I have downloaded this list and made multiple screenshots so the theodudes can never deny this article exists.

I am now taking the opportunity to update the post I wrote in 2012. Here is a link to the original—Wayne Grudem: 83 Biblical Rules for Gospel Women. Please understand Grammarly and other bits of help were unavailable, so I wrote without any editor to help me out. I am correcting some spelling errors, links, etc., in this updated post, but you have a link to the original if you want to refer to it, although I can’t think of any reason to do so unless one wants a giggle.

However, I have given you lots to laugh about in this post. For those of you who want to know who Wayne Grudem is, here is a link.

Special thanks to a reader who asked me to update the links in my original post.


Explanation of his lists: Grudem draws a line above which women cannot function in each list of church functions or positions. I remark on these “lines.” Some I find downright derogatory to specific people groups, as you will see.


Begin 2012 post

On my recent vacation, my husband forgot his Kindle and confiscated mine to read Killing Lincoln. I did not mind since I had brought a few books to read, just in case. True book lovers will understand what I mean by “just in case.” I love reading on my Kindle. However, because I am a book fiend, I still have books that have not been read and strewn all over my house. I am working my way through them.

Some need “rules” to prove they are one of the elect or a true Christian.

One was a Christian fantasy called The Light of Eidon by Karen Hancock Link. I am, and always will be, a devoted science fiction and fantasy fan. I expect to be an old and confused lady living in a protective Alzheimer’s Unit muttering about CJ Mahaney and demanding they play Stargate Atlantis reruns.

The book’s protagonist is a young man, Abramm, born to be a king in his world. But, he gave it all up to devote himself to pursuing a vocation as a religious leader. He entered a religious order and spent eight difficult years during which he was dedicated to learning how to become worthy enough to touch and tend the Sacred Flames of Eidon, around which the faith of that world revolved. Due to his genuine sacrifice and devotion, he expected to be blessed by the Flames in this endeavor. But, he learned that the Flames and those devoted to them were evil. He had to confront that his sacrifice to the rules was for naught. He faced terrible trials, was betrayed by the religious order, and was sold into slavery by his royal family. Amid his suffering, he begins to find the truth.

While reading the book, I stopped many times, contemplating the many times we have discussed legalism on this blog. It seems that we are far too willing to short-sell grace to obtain a set of rules that will “prove” our devotion. Just like Abramm, we like regulations to check off everything we have done to substantiate that we are Christians.

Some would claim that, without rules, we would become “out of control.” I would contend that those who understand grace are the ones who genuinely understand their inability to be perfect and who pursue a life of consistent gratitude for the One who provided the way.

I also have a theory that there are many who, due to the doctrine of election, fear that they might not be one of the chosen. So, they are driven to “prove” their salvation by showing how closely they adhere to the rules set forth by others who they believe hold the key to salvation. These rules and mandates must be correct since such men are saved because they preach election and are admired by truly great men who must also be elect. So, if these men say that people must do (fill in the blank), they do it, hoping it means they are among the elect. The faith becomes a set of dos and don’ts.

Wayne Grudem, a favorite of the theodudes, has rules upon rules for women in the church.

Wayne Grudem is one of these obviously elect leaders. He has focused on defining the rules for women, which he believes falls under complementarianism. Complementarians have done a poor job of explaining what this looks like in marriage. The more we post on this matter, the more complementarianism looks like egalitarianism, except for the name.

I think that men like Grudem realize this and have focused their efforts on “rules” for women in the church. The local church is increasingly becoming the center for Calvinistas to carry forth their agenda. We are told that the local church holds the keys to authority and can define who is and who is not saved. Al Mohler has said that an individual cannot leave their local church unless they obtain permission from the pastors. (Ed. I cannot provide the link for this.) The only reason to leave is serious theological problems. Do you want to bet that Al would not permit me to leave if I have trouble with the following Calvinista theology? (To which I say watch my dust-but I digress).

I first learned of Grudem’s rules for women from a great blog by Australian Marg Mowczko called newlife link. Here is how she addressed the matter.

In an article entitled “But What Should Women Do in the Church?” (his emphasis in italics), Grudem has gone to the trouble of painstakingly listing 83 church ministries in – according to him – decreasing order of the “authority” and “influence” needed to minister and participate in these ministries.  He has categorized these 83 ministries into three lists.

  • List 1 includes ministries that involve “governing authority”;
  • List 2 includes ministries that involve Bible teaching;
  • List 3 includes ministries that involve public visibility and recognition.

According to Mowczko, this was first published in the Journal for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, Volume 1 No.2 (Fall 1995) and was published on the CBMW (Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood) website, which continues to be down after eight months. (TWW thinks they are scrubbing the site of all sorts of references to women as gullible and easily deceived, getting rid of some Driscoll material and eliminating all references to the tie-in of complementarianism and housekeeping, despite the presence of Dorothy Patterson. Time will tell!) Here is the new link.

The infamous lists.

Grudem starts with an amusing warning that rings hollow as I read his interminable lists. He states:

These lists do not rank importance to the church!

He claims that these lists are incomplete! I am most grateful that he ran out of time, or we might have had a book as thick as his Systematic Theology link with which to contend. Good night! As an amusing side note, Dee taught this entire tome, along with my husband and another dear friend, to a mixed Sunday school class. I taught the section on women and commented that Grudem would not be pleased that I was doing so. Of course, I added my own 2 cents, which was hardly necessary since I obviously disobeyed the rules!

The following are the descriptions of church functions under each list. I cannot list all of them. The comprehensive list is found at the link at the top of this post. The numbers beside each item are Grudem’s numbers. Number 1 has the most authority, and the responsibility declines as the list goes on.

List 1 -Governing Authority

  • 1. President of a denomination
  • 5. Senior pastor in local church
  • 6. Member of governing board with authority over whole church (for example, elder in many churches, deacon or board member or church council member in others)
  • 7. Presiding over a baptism or communion service (but see List 3 for serving communion or performing a baptism)
  • 8. Giving spoken judgment on a prophecy given to the congregation (I think this is what Paul forbids in 1 Cor. 14:33-36)
  • 9. Permanent leader of a fellowship group meeting in a home (both men and women members)
  • 10. Committee chairman (or “chairperson”) (explanation: this item and the following two have some kind of authority in the church, but it is less than the authority over the whole congregation which Paul has in mind in 1 Cor. 14:33-36, 1 Tim. 2:12, 1 Tim. 3, and Titus 1)
  • 11. Director of Christian Education
  • 14. Moderating a Bible discussion in a home Bible study group
  • 16. Leading singing on Sunday morning (note: this could be listed between 8 and 9 above, depending on how a church understands the degree of authority over the assembled congregation that is involved)
  • 17. Deacon (in churches where this does not involve governing authority over the entire congregation)
  • 22. Meeting periodically with church governing board to give counsel and advice
  • 23. Regular conversations between elders and their wives over matters coming before the elder board (with understanding that confidentiality is preserved)
  • 24. *Professional counselor (one woman counseling one man)
  • 25. *Professional counselor (one woman counseling a couple together)
  • 26. *Professional counselor (one woman counseling another woman)

Grudem speaks to this list.

My own personal judgment in this matter is that in the area of governing authority I would draw the line between numbers 9 and 10; that is, I would approve of a woman as Director of Christian Education or Superintendent of the Sunday School, or as a committee chairman within the church. These activities do not seem to me to carry the sort of authority over the whole congregation that Paul has in view in 1 Timothy 2, or when he specifies that elders should be men (in 1 Tim. 3 and Titus 1).

I am startled to note that:

  • There is more responsibility in counseling a man (24) than in counseling a woman (26).
  • It appears that overseeing Christian Education (11) for the church is at a lower rank than leading a home group (9).
  • Leading singing (16) has more responsibility than counseling a woman (26).

Why? Can anyone tell this easily deceived woman why? (Editor 2023: I have noticed that some of the theodudes have quietly stopped using the term “gullible and easily deceived women” as of late. I have not heard any statements that they have stopped believing this. This is typical of this crowd. No apologies, no explanation, carry on just like the Royal Family of England.)

List 2 -Bible teaching ministries

  • 1. Teaching Bible or theology in a theological seminary
  • 5. Preaching (teaching the Bible) regularly to the whole church on Sunday mornings
  • 6. Occasional preaching (teaching the Bible) to the whole church on Sunday mornings
  • 7. Occasional Bible teaching at less formal meetings of the whole church (such as Sunday evening or at a mid-week service)
  • 8. Bible teaching to an adult Sunday school class (both men and women members)
  • 9. Bible teaching at a home Bible study (both men and women members)
  • 10. Bible teaching to a college age Sunday school class
  • 14. Writing a commentary on a book of the Bible
  • 16. Writing or editing a study Bible intended primarily for women
  • 17. Bible teaching to a women’s Sunday school class
  • 19. Bible teaching to a junior high Sunday school class
  • 22. Working as an evangelistic missionary in other cultures
  • 23. Moderating a discussion in a small group Bible study (men and women members)
  • 24. Reading Scripture aloud on Sunday morning
  • 35. Singing hymns with the congregation (in this activity, sometimes we “teach” and exhort one another in some sense: Col. 3:16)

Here is where Grudem draws his line.

With regard to areas of Bible teaching, I would personally draw the line between points 10 and 11. Once again, I think there is a strong similarity between a home Bible study which is taught by a woman (item 9) and the local church meeting in a home in the ancient world. Therefore I do not think it would be appropriate for a woman to be the regular instructor in a home Bible study.

He also restricts the age at which a woman can no longer teach a young man.

In our own culture, if children graduate from high school, move away from home, and begin to support themselves, then surely they are no longer under the instruction of their mothers at home, but are functioning as adults on their own. A new household has been formed. In that case, the young men are certainly adult men, and it would not be appropriate for a woman to teach a class with them as members.

Many college students are already living away from home, supporting themselves at least in part, and functioning in our society in all other ways as independent adults. In fact, most college students would be insulted if you called them “children”! For these reasons, it seems to me that a college age Sunday School class (item 10) should have a male teacher.

I find these rankings unbelievably insulting to women, people in countries outside the US, and missionaries. (2023: Dee is fuming…)

  • Writing a commentary on a book of the Bible for men and women (14) is a greater responsibility than writing a study Bible for women alone (16).
  • Bible teaching to college students (10) ranks higher than Bible teaching to women (17)!
  • Working as a missionary in another culture (22) ranks far lower than teaching a home Bible study (9) or teaching a junior high school class (19). Yeah, tell that to the martyrs!

Once again, I say, why?!! Can anyone tell me why? Can someone show me where this is in the Bible?

List 3 -Public Visibility and Public Recognition

  • 1. Ordination as pastor (member of the clergy) in a denomination
  • 2. Being licensed to perform some ministerial functions within a denomination
  • 3. Paid member of pastoral staff (such as youth worker, music director, counselor, Christian Education director)
  • 4. Paid member of administrative church staff (church secretary or treasurer, for example)
  • 5. Performing a baptism (in churches where this is not exclusively the role of clergy or elders)
  • 7. Giving announcements at the Sunday morning service
  • 8. Taking the offering
  • 9. Public reading of Scripture
  • 10. Public prayer
  • 11. Prophesying in public (according to 1 Cor. 11:5 and 14:29, where this is not understood as having authority equal to scripture or Bible teaching)
  • 13. Giving a personal testimony in church

Grudem then attempts to show he is a man of goodwill, after all.

I personally would also draw the line between items 1 and 2. I do not think that women should be ordained as pastors, but I think it is entirely appropriate for them to have other full-time positions on the “pastoral staff ” of the church (such as youth worker, music director).

However, I find this list odd and wonder why he felt compelled to make it.

  • Giving announcements (“We need help making the coffee) comes in at (7) while giving testimony is (13)
  • Public prayer ranks (10), but collecting the offering is (8).
  • Prophesying publicly is (11), but being the church secretary is (3).

Finally,

This list was compiled back in the mid-1990s. Recently, both Tim Challies and John Piper, both good buddies of Grudem, have said that women should not read the Scriptures out loud in church, nor should they pray behind the pulpit. I do not know if Wayne Grudem has changed his views.

I believe that Grudem has not become more open to the role of women within the church since compiling this list.

This brings me back to the topic of legalism.

I think these lists remind me of a group of people in the New Testament era who believed it was their duty to define, in-depth, how to live out the faith. In doing so, they added burdens to God’s people. They were often Pharisees, and Jesus called them “snakes.” He did not take kindly as they made the faith about a bundle of rules. Instead, He emphasized love and a light burden. Could it be that these complementarians are modeling themselves after the rule makers instead of the One who gave us the gift of grace because of His sacrifice on the Cross.

Let me ask our readers a question:

When you look at this list, do the words “grace,” “love” or “freedom” immediately jump to mind?

Or do you feel weighed down, discouraged or weary?

I look forward to your response!

Comments

Here Are Wayne Grudem’s 83 Rules for What Women Can and Can’t Do in a Church. They Are Illogical, Inconsistent, and Discriminatory. — 89 Comments


  1. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    In an online discussion about women’s roles in the church, I was told that it was “God’s created order” that men lead and women follow. That is why “women can’t preach except to other women.”

    I got so frustrated that I told my husband, “I give up! This issue is impossible to figure out!”

    Everyone believes they are right and they can prove they are right by Scripture. But when two positions are diametrically opposed to each other, they can’t both be right. Which one is? It seems next to impossible for me to figure it out unless I have a degree in Biblical Studies and have fluency in Biblical Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic.


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    People are leaving the church in droves and these are more worried about a woman’s place in the church than anything else including sex abuse. They must really think people are stupid not to see the inconsistency of that


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    I wonder how Wayne feels about women outside the church, who might be: professors at a public university. Or, on the board of a private business. Or, heaven forbid, in a secular governing position, such as city mayor, state governor, U.S. cabinet, or, heck, why not, even President of the U.S. Did he vote for John McCain? Or was it a big “no” vote for him, since Sarah Palin was McCain’s running mate, and thus, potentially the first female ‘Leader of the Free World’?


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    Another reminder why I’m outside the charmed circle of the ecclesia. I don’t need this kind of browbeating in my life. It’s so different from my day to day. I mean, I’ve had to tell execs (not very often, but yeah), “why no, we’re not doing this without a change request” or “this is something that has to be done after the critical online window (business hours)”. The thing is, I’m *respected* for stepping up in situations like this.

    As for what role women should play in church, I remember that Mary Magdalene was the first person to proclaim the Good News of Jesus’ Resurrection. The Wayne Grudems of the world would have her to shut up and have that glory/responsibility be for men. That’s not what happened, is it?


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    Pure misogyny: the teachings of Grudem !

    Is it not clear to people that when they drag others down, they drag themselves down too?

    Is it not possible for Grudem’s followers to recognize that women are PERSONS, too???

    Wasn’t Grudem the one who came up with that heresy called the ‘eternal submission of the Son’??? A lot of people perished on that bandwagon. Most later withdrew from advocating that teaching, sure, but we all saw how easy it was for one ‘leader’ to hijack the faith to support his own beliefs about the inferiority of women as worthy of the service to God that they were called to by Our Lord Himself (Mary of Magdalene, the Apostle to the Apostles)

    ????

    so now Grudem rises again? another dark lord who preaches misogyny?


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    When I was a pastor, on more than one occasion a woman came to me to discuss their “call from God into ministry.” I affirmed each one, even in a pastorate or two that did not agree.

    Why?

    Who am I to question God’s call and claim upon another person; male or female?


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    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Another reminder why I’m outside the charmed circle of the ecclesia.

    But you are part of that well regarded circle known as “The Daughters of Stan. “


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    Boy, Grudem better not come to my church. Periodically we do have women read Scripture from the pulpit. His change of heart regarding divorce is a little late…he has taught hundreds of seminarians that divorce is unacceptable except for adultery, and he tried to get folks to stay married under every circumstance, including physical abuse.

    Then he messes with translation: https://www.salon.com/2021/07/10/when-evangelical-snowflakes-censor-the-bible-the-english-standard-version-goes-pc/ See also: https://blogs.bible.org/on-the-esvs-new-rendering-of-genesis-316-contrary-wives/

    Playing fast and loose with translations when you have the linguistic chops to know better is completely disgusting.


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    I have picked out only some of the most bizarre. Is this man petrified of a wrathful god (little “g” intended)? Or perhaps does he want to do all of these jobs himself?

    26. *Professional counselor (one woman counseling another woman)
    35. Singing hymns with the congregation (in this activity, sometimes we “teach” and exhort one another in some sense: Col. 3:16)
    4. Paid member of administrative church staff (church secretary or treasurer, for example)
    7. Giving announcements at the Sunday morning service
    9. Public reading of Scripture
    10. Public prayer
    11. Prophesying in public (according to 1 Cor. 11:5 and 14:29, where this is not understood as having authority equal to scripture or Bible teaching)
    13. Giving a personal testimony in church

    Some of these are logistical shots-in-the-foot; others not even biblical: Peter, in Acts 2, referring to the prophet Joel: “Your sons and daughters will prophesy…”

    The pecking order of the list is irrelevant. Their mere inclusion declares them forbidden.

    Matthew 23 is really good for putting this in perspective–Jesus calling out the Pharisees for their legalism. This was shortly before they killed him.


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    christiane: Wasn’t Grudem the one who came up with that heresy called the ‘eternal submission of the Son’???

    Well, yes; that too.


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    Even more bizarre restrictions that Dee left out, probably because she didn’t want to embarrass Dr. Grudem further—some are listed more than once, included in more than one category:

    12. Singing a solo on Sunday mornings
    14. Giving a prayer request in church
    15. Being a member of a “prayer team” that will pray for peo-
    ple individually after the service.
    16. Welcoming people at the door (a greeter)
    17. Editing church newsletter
    18. Singing in the choir
    19. Singing of hymns with congregation on Sunday morning
    20. Participating in the responsive reading of Scripture on
    Sunday morning

    31. Teaching children’s Sunday school class
    32. Teaching Vacation Bible School
    33. Singing a solo on Sunday morning (a form of teaching, since
    it often has Biblical content and exhortation)

    17. Bible teaching to a women’s Sunday school class
    18. Bible teaching to a women’s Bible study group during the
    week


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    Grudem makes me think of Dr. Zaius in Planet of the Apes.
    I swear they’re both cut from the same cloth.


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    I’ve seen this list before and the degree of (apparently unintentional) self-parody still surprises me.

    As Dee points out, there doesn’t seem to be any cohesive guiding principle as to how these activities are ranked. I wonder how Dr Grudem would stratify the following activities:

    Prophesying to an entire nation
    Explaining scripture to national political leaders
    Administration and financial support of a home church
    Acting as messenger for, and clarifying the written message of, an apostle
    Providing hospitality and financial support to an influential itinerant preacher
    Bearing witness to said itinerant preacher’s political persecution, execution, and miraculous resurrection

    Each of the above seems like a bigger deal to me than all of Grudem’s #1’s. But I’m also an ignorant, easily deceived female so what do I know.


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    “When you look at this list, do the words ‘grace,’ ‘love’ or ‘freedom’ immediately jump to mind? Or do you feel weighed down, discouraged or weary?”

    “A Pharisee is hard on others and easy on himself, but a spiritual man is easy on others and hard on himself.” AW Tozer

    When I look at the quote that starts the post, I feel immediate opposition. If Mr. Tozer were here in my kitchen, I would ask him why he wants me to be miserable, guilt-ridden, and plagued with scrupulosity. The Great Commandment says to love your neighbor as yourself, not to love your neighbor and be rotten to yourself.


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    Jesus began his ministry by entering a synagogue and quoting Isaiah 61:1, declaring it fulfilled. He is the one who will “BIND up the brokenhearted” and “LOOSE those in prison” Good shepherds, those anointed with the Holy Spirit, offer healing and freedom. In contrast, bad shepherds lack the anointing and abuse authority.

    They bind the sheep like rodeo cowboys. They “let loose” on the sheep with abuse. So, both good shepherds and bad shepherds “bind and loose.”

    Bad shepherds also misinterpret “the keys” as the granting of authority. The two keys (the key of knowledge and the key of faith) are related to the word of the gospel. This word binds up the wounded and looses those from the prison of sin. When you share the gospel with a friend, you are presenting them the keys and an opportunity for healing and release.

    The “binding of women” (placing universal restrictions on what they can and cannot do in God’s kingdom) is a symptom of this improper exegesis.


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    I don’t remember much from taking Greek classes over twenty years ago, but I do remember the first verb used as a paradigm: luo. I was amazed then that it had two meanings: to set free or to destroy. Now it makes sense to me.


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    CynthiaW.: When I look at the quote that starts the post, I feel immediate opposition

    Yeah, it struck me the same way. To be fair, there are probably ways you could read it that don’t tend towards “miserable, guilt-ridden and plagued with scrupulosity.” But from what I understand Tozer wasn’t the most well-adjusted person, so I suspect your more negative read is probably closer to reality.


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    Dale Rudiger: The “binding of women” (placing universal restrictions on what they can and cannot do in God’s kingdom) is a symptom of this improper exegesis.

    Aaaand, some folks believe and preach the world is flat.


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    CynthiaW.: The Great Commandment says to love your neighbor as yourself, not to love your neighbor and be rotten to yourself.

    Yes. The old hair-shirt miserable “gospel” theobros were a click off. Flying to land on an aircraft carrier, but a click off, means one lands in the ocean completely destroying the plane, with loss of pilot, too. A click off. Reality reveal. Oops.


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    In the case of a former church of mine, I notice that the boundaries of these rules were largely followed, but differently in public vs. private. Publicly, the boundary was pushed to sound and appear more permissive of women’s roles in the church. Privately, discussions were held around ways the congregation needed to be “corrected.”

    I think the root of this difference is in the fact that most of the women in the congregation were very career-successful, and it could easily be demonstrated that the church’s budget depended on them. If you alienate the women, you lose the money. If you push the boundaries too far, you get kicked out of the denomination.

    One example of privately pushing the boundaries – I was once told that there would be a sermon series on gender roles, mainly spurred on by the fact that a lot of women in the church had been reading and discussing “The Making of Biblical Womanhood” and “Recovering From Biblical Manhood and Womanhood”, and that the ideas being circulated from than needed correction. I was not present for the sermon series, but was told that neither of those books were explicitly mentioned (don’t directly antagonize the women, just explain why they’re wrong).

    Of course, many private things eventually become public…

    To go along with the series, they organized a local “conference” on gender and invited one speaker – a male friend of the pastor. During his speech, he confidently stated that he understands what it’s like to be a woman because he once held an associate pastor role and people kept asking him to do things that he didn’t feel should be his responsibility. They quietly scrubbed the recording from the internet, but that clued a lot of folks into what was actually going on.


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    I am toast I guess. Much of our participation or membership in various denominations was driven by geography. But in SBC, CotN, UMC, ELCA, and LCMS I will have done part or all of those things.

    And sometimes, mostly due to geography, done all of them without the blessing of any church involved besides “tailgate church”.

    Who does this guy think he is, GOD?


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    We’re always amazed at what these clowns espouse.

    We have to realize in the old testament there were few human rights and practically none for women. Abraham’s wife gave him a slave girl to impregnate with God’s blessing. Solomon, the great and godly king had 900 concubines. Lot offered his daughters to the crowd to prevent the angels from being despoiled.

    This is Wayne Grudems Christianity. Free from all that Hellenism that influenced Jesus and Paul – whether Paul’s mission to turn female pastors into Telly Savalas impersonators is real, I can’t say.

    Free from the enlightenment ideas that influenced modern democracy.

    So let’s get those women preachers shaved, and party like it’s 1999….BC.


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    Some people bring life, others bring rules.
    Jesus brought life.
    Be like Jesus.


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    Jack,

    Funny Jack!
    And satirically true too.


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    CMT,

    I don’t even think it’s accurate about Pharisees: they did, as a group, follow the Mosaic Law scrupulously and with great effort. Jesus’s argument against them was that the Law as it had developed was contrary to the deeper meaning of the Jewish religion. “You tithe mint and rue and cumin, but you’re harsh and mean to other people.” (paraphrase)


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    In an online discussion about women’s roles in the church, I was told that it was “God’s created order” that men lead and women follow.
    Tina,

    ……. And women follow wearing leashes and cute little vests that say “SERVICE ANIMAL” ?
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    People are leaving the church in droves and these are more worried about a woman’s place in the church than anything else including sex abuse.
    Chuckp,

    If women would just obey the “gospel” …….. remain silent and not “gossip”, no one would know about the abuse and everything would be just hunky dory.

    Yeah, I’m being sarcastic. But I’ll betcha that’s what a lot of these guys are thinking.


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    > some of the theodudes have quietly stopped using the term “gullible and easily deceived women”

    Perhaps there is an uncomfortable realization that many “men in authority” within the upper reaches of the complementarian movement were deceived about the character of some of the well-known figures (primarily men) who turned out to be toxic figures and public embarrassments. It appears that there are “gullible and easily deceived” men among the leaders of their movement. Perhaps this recognition has something to do with the adjustments in rhetoric.

    regarding “rules vs grace”, I think that there is value in “lists” as “examples of what righteous conduct looks like”, but reliance on lists to govern life gives a free pass to have an inactive conscience, or to disregard the activity of one’s conscience. The Creator wants “clean-ness in the inner man.” The “goal of [Christian] instruction is faith working through love.” WG’s conscience draws the lines where he draws them, but he should allow his readers’ consciences to do their own work for them, IMO.

    WG’s justification for forbidding present-day female leadership of home bible-study meetings because such meetings structurally resemble the “whole church” meetings of the earliest Gentile churches, many of which were small groups that met in homes, strikes me as bizarre. I suspect that this principle of “avoiding things that bear structural similarity to early practices” could be extended in absurd ways. Perhaps we should outlaw the profession of Pharmacy, since that was in some cultural contexts associated with sorcery during the era of the early churches.


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    Nancy2(aka Kevlar): If women would just obey the “gospel” …….. remain silent and not “gossip”, no one would know about the abuse and everything would be just hunky dory.

    It is perhaps impolitic of me to note that this principle that “what you don’t measure, and consequently don’t know about, can be regarded — for public purposes — to not exist at all” is not confined to the churches. It appears to me that it is operative within our current public health establishment.

    I’ve probably stepped on some toes and will go silent now. In any event, the weeds need to be pulled.


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    I keep waiting for Max to chime in with one of his pithy comments about the neocals but I haven’t seen him on here in a while. Trust all is well, brother and you are on a lovely vacation, unplugged.


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    There is a branch of Buddhism that has a university in my town. I don’t know about other branches, but this one teaches that a woman must be reborn as a man before she can reach Nirvana. I don’t see any difference between this Buddhist teaching and what Grudem and his ilk profess. No need to be a Christian.

    Some great comments above, too.

    D.


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    From the post: “I have downloaded this list and made multiple screenshots so the theodudes can never deny this article exists.”

    This…makes me smile, in light of no repentance and the original appearance/location of the list disappearing. Thanks, Dee.

    Now, I’ll finish reading the rest of the post.


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    Jack: Free from the enlightenment ideas that influenced modern democracy.

    Those guys DO NOT WANT a democracy.
    Up front and simple.
    They made that clear on 6 January 2021.


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    CMT: Acting as messenger for, and clarifying the written message of, an apostle
    Providing hospitality and financial support to an influential itinerant preacher
    Bearing witness to said itinerant preacher’s political persecution, execution, and miraculous resurrection

    As I recall, from reading WG’s Systematic Theology, in the midst of a deceptive church takeover, he wrote, in reference to Mary Magdalene’s witness of the resurrection and proclaiming that to the apostles and Deborah’s judging role and Priscilla’s teaching….. that these were not “general patterns.” He wrote that the overall “general pattern” in the Bible was male leadership, over women and others. WG opts for “the general patterns” over other infrequent patterns….like the resurrection, for example. WG is not into considering outliers. He wrote that “general pattern” stuff. I wonder if “new life” can find room in his “general pattern” spaces?

    My take, WG has flatlined in regard to viewing women as human beings with their own conscience..and voice of influence that’s important for collaborative living. WG, IMO, has flatlined in regard to respecting the God-given rights of other human beings, women, men and children. Of course, I don’t know him personally, but this is what I hear from reading his rules and parts of his systematic theology book. Thank God I didn’t read the whole thing.

    Listening to an audio of Deborah Gill, which was given to me by a friend, during the church takeover, made me aware of WG’s position regarding women. CBE and Marg Mowczko’s writings were/are also helpful.


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    This is the seventh time I’ve tried to write this comment and am just going to say it. Bin this comment if it’s not suitable.
    He reminds me of a manager I had on an eating disorders ward who decided to implement the drug administration policy to the letter (in a very bullying way) in response to a spike in drug errors. All she achieved was a bigger spike in errors, only one nurse (me) who was still allowed to administer on my own, risk management on her back, staff in tears, complaints from doctors about me, and the rest of the hospital moaning at her because she wouldn’t let any of her nurses administer drugs without another nurse who had to come from another ward.
    I’m very proud that as soon as she announced this I started a programme of malicious compliance and the complaints from doctors were because I kept asking them to rewrite prescriptions in some very petty ways.
    But anyway, that’s what this is like.
    How do I apply to be a daughter of Stan?


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    From the OP: “In our own culture, if children graduate from high school, move away from home, and begin to support themselves, then surely they are no longer under the instruction of their mothers at home, but are functioning as adults on their own. A new household has been formed. In that case, the young men are certainly adult men, and it would not be appropriate for a woman to teach a class with them as members.”

    Ha! Male high school grads have no further use of their mothers. They have formed a new household. Now I’ve heard everything. With apologies to the intellectuals who gather here, this reminded me of Bluto in “Animal House,” exhorting his fellow frat boys in their new household: “Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?”


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    Samuel Conner: It is perhaps impolitic of me to note that this principle that “what you don’t measure, and consequently don’t know about, can be regarded — for public purposes — to not exist at all” is not confined to the churches. It appears to me that it is operative within our current public health establishment.

    Oh, yeah. Let the “experts'” measures be the ONLY measures considered, and only The “experts” inline with the desired narrative of those in power that keeps the revenue flowing. Heaven (well maybe Heaven doesn’t) forbid if someone, unauthorized someone, asks how a measure is formulated and it basically. can’t. be. justified or explained, even by The “experts,” but they keep on using/selling it. Yes, this does seem the same as deceptive takeover churches and their ilk.


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    Ella: the overall “general pattern”

    This language is indistinguishable from “the cultural context of the biblical history.”

    Disregarding the outliers is IMO unwise — the exceptions test one’s hypotheses about what the rules may be. Methinks the biblical exceptions kind of overthrow the idea that ancient cultural norms should provide a timeless pattern for the churches (and if one is going to disregard the outliers and affirm that anyway, what is one to do …, gulp, … with the OT cultural norm of polygyny?).

    OTOH, it may be that there will be a Darwinian process that will resolve the issue. Any culture that sidelines half its talent is not going to compete well with its peers that don’t do that.


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    Samuel Conner: Disregarding the outliers is IMO unwise — the exceptions test one’s hypotheses about what the rules may be.

    For sure.

    Samuel Conner: if one is going to disregard the outliers and affirm that anyway, what is one to do …, gulp, … with the OT cultural norm of polygyny?)

    Exactly, although, I’ll bet that would never be stated publicly as acceptable except in really weird spaces. I wouldn’t want to live there.

    Samuel Conner: OTOH, it may be that there will be a Darwinian process that will resolve the issue. Any culture that sidelines half its talent is not going to compete well with its peers that don’t do that.

    LOL. A short-lived culture…..not a general long-lived pattern.


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    I have been studying Paul’s lists of spiritual gifts today and a question popped into my mind. If there are different gifts for men and women, or if spiritual gifts are to be used in very specific circumstances, directed toward certain groups of people – men, women, children, teenagers, in-church, outside the church – why didn’t Paul provide more details? At least why didn’t he say these gifts are for men, these gifts are for women? Grudem seems to the think that both Paul and the Holy Spirit are defecient in some way, so I guess it’s up to him (Grudem)to make up for those deficincies.


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    Dan: why didn’t Paul provide more details?

    Good point. Nothing about gender regarding any of these gifts from the Holy Spirit to the church.

    There ARE details regarding 1. Each Christian receiving a gift; both men and women; 2. All gifts are of equal value; of both men and women; 3. These are GIFTS from the Holy Spirit to the church; no money involved. As church members, we DO NOT pay for these gifts. No gift is given to earn a living or build a dynasty or make a name for someone or make someone famous or give them a platform.

    Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12, Ephesians 4.


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    Ella: Listening to an audio of Deborah Gill, which was given to me by a friend, during the church takeover, made me aware of WG’s position regarding women. CBE and Marg Mowczko’s writings were/are also helpful.

    Let’s face it and just say it like it is.
    Grudem hates women.


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    Ellauhfu

    Oh of course there’s an explanation why those women don’t count. To paraphrase Rachel Held Evans, it’s less about what the Scripture says than what the reader is looking for. If you read the Bible looking for justifications to keep people down, you’ll find them. And if you read the Bible looking for reasons to lift people up, you’ll find those too.

    But good grief, a “general pattern” heuristic? Forget polygyny and whatnot. If the early church had handled scripture this way, Christianity would have remained a weird Jewish sect. After all, that was the general pattern of the only scripture they had. But again, I’m sure there’s a convenient explanation for why this heuristic only applies to the status of women, and not to things like, say, circumcision and dietary laws.


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    It’s worth reading what Adolf von Harnack, the Lutheran theologian, wrote about the spread of the Gospel among Women. The section is too lengthy to post here but here are a couple of things –
    “ No one who reads the New Testament attentively, as well as those writings which immediately succeeded it, can fail to notice that in the apostolic and sub-apostolic age women played an important rôle in the propaganda of Christianity and throughout the Christian communities. The equalising of man and woman before God (Gal. 3:28) produced a religious independence among women, which aided the Christian mission. Jesus himself had a circle of women among his adherents, in addition to the disciples; and a very ancient gloss on Luke 23:2 makes the Jews charge him before Pilate with misleading women.”

    “ From 1 Cor. 7:12 f. we learn that there were mixed marriages in Corinth, although it is impossible to ascertain whether it was more usual for a pagan to be wedded to a Christian woman, or the reverse. It is quite clear, however, that women appeared in the local assemblies of the church, with the consent of the apostle, and that they prayed and prophesied in public (11:5 f.). This fact and this permission may seem to contradict the evidence of 14:34 f. ”(He goes on to offer a solution).

    “ In Philippians, which contains few personal items, we read (4:2): “I exhort Euodia and I exhort Syntychê to be of the same mind in the Lord. Yea, I pray thee also, true yokefellow, to help these women, for they have wrought with me in the service of the gospel, together with Clement and the rest of my fellow-workers, whose names are in the book of life.” These two women, then, had helped to found the church at Philippi, and consequently occupied a position of high honour still (perhaps as presidents of two churches in their houses, like Nymphê at Colossê”

    You can find the full article here –
    https://archive.org/details/missionexpansion02harn/page/64/mode/2up?q=Prisca+


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    To give you an idea of how Wayne Grudem approaches the meaning of a word/text/passage I’ve quoted some of his remarks on 1 Peter 3:1. After deciding the best meaning of the word “likewise” (do as the slave does in a modified manner), he advances his argument for “submission”(hypotasso) namely –
    “Be submissive to your husbands means willingly to submit to your husband’s authority or leadership in the marriage. The idea of willing obedience is involved in this submission, as is clear from verses 5 to 6. There Peter illustrates ‘being subject to their own husbands’ with the example, ‘as Sarah obeyed Abraham’, thus showing that obeying (hypakouō) is the means by which Sarah was being submissive (hypotassō, the same word as is used in v. 1).
    Sometimes the word hypotassō (‘be submissive’) has been understood to mean ‘be thoughtful and considerate; act in love’ (toward another). But this is not a legitimate meaning for the term, which always implies a relationship of submission to an authority”

    Contrast this with the following discussion from the New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology and Exegesis. –

    “Paul and Acts. (a) In Gal 3:28 Paul asserts, “There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female [ἄρσεν καὶ θῆλυ], for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” Some scholars believe this statement alludes to an early baptismal formula (cf. 1 Cor 12:12–13; Col 3:9–11). R. Scroggs (in IDBSup, 966) comments: “To enter the Christian community thus meant to join a society in which male-female roles and valuations based on such roles had been discarded. The community was powerless to alter role valuations in the outside culture, but within the church, behavior patterns and interrelationships were to be based on this affirmation of equality.” Similarly, Jewett (Man as Male and Female, 142–44), who regards this text as the “Magna Carta of Humanity,” explains it as follows: “Salvation does not alter the ordinance of creation; rather it redeems it.… In Christ the man and the woman are redeemed from false stereotypes, stereotypes which inhibit their true relationship. Thus redeemed, they are enabled to become what God intended them to be when he created Man in his image—a fellowship of male and female. The restoration of this true fellowship of the sexes is one of the ways we ‘put off the old man and put on the new man who is being renewed unto knowledge after the image of Christ’ (Col. 3:10).”

    The question arises whether there is a tension between this strand of Paul’s teaching and the hierarchical view of woman’s subordination to man suggested in 1 Cor 11:2–16; 14:34–35; 1 Tim 2:11–15; Titus 2:4–5. On any reading, these passages bristle with exegetical difficulties, and thus it is not surprising that they continue to produce much controversy. In the first passage, e.g., it is debated whether “head” (1 Cor 11:3) should be taken to mean “superior authority, ruler,” as traditionally done, or “source,” as some recent scholars have suggested on the grounds that 1 Cor 11:12 (ἡ γυνὴ ἐκ τοῦ ἀνδρός) alludes to Gen 2, where man is said to be the source of woman (see fuller discussion s.v. κεφαλή G3051). In the case of 1 Tim 2:12, do the words “I do not permit a woman …” reflect only a personal position—and one conditioned by the specific circumstances in Ephesus—or do they express a universally normative principle? These and various other disagreements are not likely to disappear any time soon. It is important to note, however, that even those scholars who hold to a traditional (so-called hierarchical) view affirm the dignity that the NT confers equally on men and women as persons, partic. with regard to their standing before God.

    Likewise, when Eph 5:22 instructs wives to submit to their husbands (cf. Col 3:18), one cannot ignore the broader context, which instructs husbands to love their wives (i) as they love themselves and (ii) as Christ loved the church (Eph 5:25–33). In other words, the headship and lordship of Christ, reflected in marriage, does not consist in authoritarianism. For Paul, Christ’s lordship was exercised in taking the form of a servant (cf. Mark 10:45; Phil 2:7), and thus the husband’s headship is to be expressed precisely in self-giving. Entirely in line with this position is the remarkable statement in 1 Cor 7:4, “The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife” (note that this is the same epistle that emphasizes the headship of the man in ch. 11). The idea of the wife exercising authority over the husband appears to be unparalleled in previous Jewish thinking, and it contradicts Paul’s alleged misogyny. The thrust of Paul’s teaching is therefore caught in the dynamic paradoxes of mutual subjection and the thought that the headship of the husband is to be realized in utter self-sacrifice for the loved one, in a way that applies to marriage the self-sacrifice of Christ.

    Some of the passages already alluded to have touched on the ministry of women in the early church. Even before Pentecost women were among those who “devoted themselves to prayer” with the disciples (Acts 1:14; cf. 12:12). The first convert at Philippi was Lydia, who was baptized with her household (16:14–15). At Thessalonica and Berea women of high standing were among the first converts (17:4, 12). Among the women who were fellow workers with the apostles were Priscilla, the wife of Aquila (18:2, 26; Rom 16:3–4; 1 Cor 16:19; 2 Tim 4:19), and Phoebe, a διάκονος G1356 (see διακονέω G1354) of the church in Cenchrea (Rom 16:1). The latter ref. raises the question whether there was a separate order of women deacons or whether they were included in the same order as male deacons (it is likewise uncertain whether 1 Tim 3:11 refers to the wives of deacons or to female deacons). A separate order of widows seems to be indicated elsewhere (1 Tim 5:9; cf. Titus 2:3–5 and see χήρα G5939).

    None of the interpretative approaches to 1 Cor 14:33b–36 is free of difficulty. It is evident, however, that absolute or sweeping prohibitions to women’s ministry fly in the face of the teaching of Scripture as a whole, for significant instances of female leadership, teaching, or ministry are presented to us without the slightest hint of divine disapproval (e.g., Deborah, Huldah, Priscilla, the daughters of Philip [Acts 21:9], Euodia and Syntyche [Phil 4:2–3, “contended at my side”]). By the same token, it seems disingenuous to ignore or quickly dismiss the overarching biblical emphasis on male leadership (e.g., OT elders, Jesus’ disciples) and the few passages that apparently place some kind of qualification on women’s involvement in the church. The effort must be made to reach a position that fully acknowledges both strands of bib. teaching”

    Apologies if this is too long for consideration.


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    Lowlandseer: Apologies if this is too long for consideration.

    Thank you for this. Much appreciated. Better than my “Animal House” reductio ad absurdum.


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    Lowlandseer: By the same token, it seems disingenuous to ignore or quickly dismiss the overarching biblical emphasis on male leadership (e.g., OT elders, Jesus’ disciples) and the few passages that apparently place some kind of qualification on women’s involvement in the church.

    Thanks for these helpful additions.

    Found myself agreeing with the contrast up to this point. Not sure why the author/s added this toward the end. This reminds me of JP’s “masculine feel” scripture. It seems to me that I have experienced, read more about “disingenuous” behavior in the camp that emphasizes the submission of women to men. Why add this line? And “quick dismissal?” Or is the problem more a “quick/fairly recent authoritarian emphasis” of gender roles?

    Lowlandseer: The effort must be made to reach a position that fully acknowledges both strands of bib. teaching”

    I’m not sure I can wrap my mind around this either. “Both strands of bib. teaching?” I thought there was only one “red string” strand of bib. teaching/interpretation, Jesus.

    Two experiences:
    1. The church takeover was disingenuous. Many similar similar stories here. This disingenuous behavior is coming from the TGC camp. The manipulated results were passed off as an “effort to fully acknowledge both strands of bib. interpretation,” leaving the church stamped with an emphasis on gender roles and hierarchy.
    2. Para-church ministry changes over brief (<15 years timeframe). Began with transparency with the names (both men and women) of the authors of the associated commentary. Began without a "recommendation" of what Bible translation to use. Began with a quote: " Unity in essentials. To absolutize non-essentials is idolatry."
    Now, recommends using the ESV and all scripture verses written in the studies are taken from the ESV. No names of the authors of the commentaries are given, no nice quote of unity and avoiding idolatry. The names of commentators not available. I asked. Is this a lack of transparency, or just too time consuming to list them all? I was told there were many and from "various places." I wonder if they are from "both strands." I'm suspicious, since the ESV stands as the recommended translation.
    It seems to me like the ESV/TGC strand does not want to acknowledge strands different from theirs and they do not want to allow strands different from theirs a seat, or voice, at the teaching table. But, of course, they don't want to lose women's service.


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    CMT: To paraphrase Rachel Held Evans, it’s less about what the Scripture says than what the reader is looking for.

    Evans was a wise woman who called out the theodudes for what they are.
    Clanging cymbals and noisy gongs.


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    Lowlandseer,

    Thank you for taking the time to write this comment. It was most helpful!


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    CMT: To paraphrase Rachel Held Evans, it’s less about what the Scripture says than what the reader is looking for. If you read the Bible looking for justifications to keep people down, you’ll find them. And if you read the Bible looking for reasons to lift people up, you’ll find those too.

    Good comment. Even though I had differences with RHE, I loved her writings. I miss her.


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    Tina: Everyone believes they are right and they can prove they are right by Scripture. But when two positions are diametrically opposed to each other, they can’t both be right. Which one is? It seems next to impossible for me to figure it out unless I have a degree in Biblical Studies and have fluency in Biblical Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic.

    Hi Tina,
    I strongly recommend you read “The Bible vs. Biblical Womanhood” by Philip B. Payne. He is brilliant and yet makes things easy to understand for people like you and me.

    https://www.amazon.com/s?k=payne+the+bible+vs.+biblical+womanhood&crid=3MX8ESFCMAFIE&sprefix=the+bible+vs.+%2Caps%2C263&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_3_14

    Chapter 6, “Did Paul Teach “Women Must Be Silent in the Churches”? 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, is worth the price of the book alone. He makes a strong case that verses 34-35 were not in the earliest manuscripts and provides textual proof.

    Short bio on Payne: “Philip Barton Payne (Ph.D., Cambridge) served with his wife Nancy for the Evangelical Free Church Mission in Japan for seven years. He has taught New Testament Studies at Cambridge, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, Gordon-Conwell, Bethel, and Fuller, and is known for his studies on textual criticism, the parables of Jesus, and Paul’s teachings on women.”


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    Ella,

    Hi Ella. Given the strong views on both sides I think there is a tendency among some people to dismiss the other side’s arguments/reasoning without taking the time to listen/read/investigate its merits and I think maybe that was what he was getting at when he writes of “both strands of biblical teaching” which might, in the end, be reconcilable. Von Harnack makes some good points on this in the article I quoted from earlier.
    As for “disingenuous” I agree with you. The “roll-out” of the ESV as the preferred Bible in the church happened quickly and without much discussion in parachurch organisations and churches. But when you look at the leaders of said organisations and churches, the same names keep popping up and there is no doubt that the New Calvinist network played an important part in its success. I still don’t understand it. The ESV is a poor translation and its Study Bible notes are nothing short of propaganda for a particular point of view. I also agree with you on leaders’ reluctance to share the source of their studies and teachings. In a “small group” Bible study I attended, the leaders all had their sheet of paper which, given the precision with which the study moved from point to point, no questioning allowed, was clearly their stage directions. I asked but wasn’t told which resources they were using. (I found out anyway). By being “winsome” and persistent (translation: “don’t fob me off, I’ll just get louder), other members of the group joined in and we ended up having a “proper” Bible study. So don’t let anyone ignore you, try to silence you, or force you to accept something you don’t think is right and true.


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    Muff Potter: Those guys DO NOT WANT a democracy.
    Up front and simple.
    They made that clear on 6 January 2021.

    Democracy has never been part of God’s plan. It’s a kingdom with only one king.

    He doesn’t say much, so his “priests” speak for him. Usually it involves giving 10% of your earnings but sometimes involves subjugation when the yen hits them. Usually subjugation of some group that threatens the status quo that keeps them on top. Gotta that 52% of the population in their place….and bald…


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    Dan: I have been studying Paul’s lists of spiritual gifts today and a question popped into my mind. If there are different gifts for men and women, or if spiritual gifts are to be used in very specific circumstances, directed toward certain groups of people – men, women, children, teenagers, in-church, outside the church – why didn’t Paul provide more details?

    Or Jesus. The parable of the talents is not gender specific, either. But Grudem’s list is consigning many women to the role of the servant who buries his (or her) talents.


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    CMT,

    Thank you. I appreciate your comments.

    Reading at RHE’s blog was refreshing. She was creative, generous and positive with her writing.

    CMT: But good grief, a “general pattern” heuristic? Forget polygyny and whatnot. If the early church had handled scripture this way, Christianity would have remained a weird Jewish sect.

    Exactly. And good point about the inconsistencies in applying their gold standard of “general patterns.”


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    Muff Potter,

    Succinct! We’re in agreement, although I wonder if his actions toward female family members may be inconsistent with his teaching.


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    Lowlandseer: Von Harnack makes some good points on this in the article I quoted from earlier.

    There are good points in the article and it is interesting to consider church history that I would not come by without references from others. I appreciate your comments.

    Lowlandseer: As for “disingenuous” I agree with you.

    Thanks, for this, and sharing some of your experience with the New Calvinists’ behaviors/planned strategies . For the Bible study mentioned, I’m glad to hear you found the sources that you wanted, others joined in the pursuit for transparency and that the Bible study resulted in a better/proper environment.

    Thanks for the encouragement.


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    FreshGrace,

    Ditto.


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    Tina,

    “Everyone believes they are right and they can prove they are right by Scripture. But when two positions are diametrically opposed to each other, they can’t both be right. Which one is? It seems next to impossible for me to figure it out unless I have a degree in Biblical Studies and have fluency in Biblical Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++

    i totally understand.

    even amongst scholars in those fields there is disagreement.

    call me Frustrated-Anne Disillusionette.

    we all have our thoughts on what it all means. They can’t all be right; they can’t all be wrong.

    what is always right and never wrong is treating people the way we want to be treated. loving our neighbor as ourselves.

    that is my doctrine and theology. if anything conflicts with that, i let it go.

    as i see it, what’s the point of having faith in something that is cruel, manipulative, destructive, & otherwise unethical?

    what is the point of abiding by faith tenets I can’t respect? that are beneath my own personal integrity?


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    Alexandra A,

    “he confidently stated that he understands what it’s like to be a woman because he once held an associate pastor role and people kept asking him to do things that he didn’t feel should be his responsibility.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    i wonder how many stupid pills this man took.

    he’s like archie bunker exponentialized. (but with a sweet smile, I imagine.)

    i wonder if he even knows.


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    John Berry: How do I apply to be a daughter of Stan?

    I don’t think you apply – if I understand these matters aright, you just know in your heart you’re a daughter of Stan.


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    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
    Muslin…
    To me, the story of Mary M. says it all. If you are a Hyper Calvanist, G%D ordained that a women would be the first to spread the GOSPEL.. namely the “good news” that Christ beat death..
    If you are a hyper Arminianist, then a women “chose” to be the first to spread the GOSPEL, and the scriptures DO NOT condemn her of her actions.. in fact it HIGHLIGHTS it.
    Either way, the first “preacher” was MAry M.
    One can try to wordsmith what Mary M. did (i.e. she “sharred”) but, the bottom line, she was the first to PROCLAIM the GOSPEL.


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    elastigirl,

    He is first in kingdom will be last and last first.. humm.. I guess this guy does not know his scriptures very well..

    or, as Paul states,
    “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus….Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross


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    I will bear Grudem’s rules in mind as I “lector” (read Scripture from the lectern) next Sunday at our little Catholic mission here in rural NC. 🙂


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    FreshGrace,

    I’m waiting too.


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    dee: Lowlandseer,

    Thank you for taking the time to write this comment. It was most helpful!

    That.


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    Or Jesus. The parable of the talents is not gender specific, either. But Grudem’s list is consigning many women to the role of the servant who buries his (or her) talents.
    Sarah (aka Wild Honey),

    Yep!
    I had one foot out the church door, with all my weight on that foot, when our pastor did a series of sermons on gifts and how to use our God given abilities. For three Sundays in a row, I listened intently with paper and pen, ready to take notes.
    Not one single thing he preached on was of any use for women. We are not allowed to use the gifts and do the work he preached on …… not even sure we are allowed to have those gifts and abilities.
    That finished me.

    (Note: This really has nothing to do with this pastor. I do not have any issues with him. He’s a great guy. I know him personally …. his family…… love them all dearly. But, our church that he was pastoring is very strict on “women’s roles”, more strict than WG, before this pastor took the job.)


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    75 years and counting; I still believe with all my heart that biology is destiny. God gave men a lane in which to travel through out their lives and gave women a different a lane in which to prosper.
    *
    As sinful human; we of course resent that God would ever tell us “No.” Nothing more offensive then being told to “stay in your lane.”


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    seneca,

    So glad you are in your “correct” lane and don’t feel like you are traveling with the rest of us sinners…


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    seneca,

    And this is all based solely on plumbing received at birth?
    With no regard to actual gifting and talent?
    No exceptions, no deviations, plumbing only.


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    Jeffrey J Chalmers,

    Upon further thought, according these teachers, I guess you must first consider the “gender” before you have the mind of Christ…. You only need to become servants within your own gender?


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    Seriously y’all, how many folks take Grudem seriously?
    I’d like to see some real numbers as to how widespread Grudem’s ideology is applied in Protestant Churches.


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    Muff Potter: I’d like to see some real numbers as to how widespread Grudem’s ideology is applied in Protestant Churches.

    I’d ask the chicken-and-egg question too. How much bad church behavior starts out as plain old sexism and then gets dressed up with labels, author names, and theological justification?


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    GMFS!

    Point 1 of 2: slight tangent from Mr Groodum

    Some years ago I first came across the claim that [don’t shoot the messenger, BTW] “A woman wants to be loved, whereas a man wants to be respected”. The context is interesting, though. It was a small group setting (about a dozen of us, pretty much half-and-half men and women) led by a married couple. At a point near the end of our time there, the wife of the couple leading made the observation. When she did so, all of the men there – me included – seized on the statement like it was a long-lost brother. It was only later, looking back, that I registered that all of the women sat back and regarded it like the embarrassing cousin they were obliged to entertain every other Tuesday.

    ISTM that in fact an infant wants to be loved, whereas an adult wants to be respected. And that the transition starts around the age of 2. In a setting steeped in contemporary christian culture and music, there’s a lot of celebrating our being God’s children; but often this is done in the singular, so that I have to sing about how I’m God’s special, precious little child and Mummy God loves me. So the reason all of us men were so taken with the offer of respect was nothing more than that we were fed up with endlessly role-playing at being babies. Being offered actual respect was like finally being presented with actual food in Pret A Manger after years of subsisting on those weird bags of pretzels in already-eaten-once mayonnaise. The women, obviously, weren’t included. They were stuck with the lukewarm breast milk that was off without quite becoming cheese.

    Failing to spot that the lassies didn’t want to be babies either was, I admit, somewhat selfish of the laddies. A bit like jumping into the lifeboat and then launching it. Not my finest hour.


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    GAFS!

    Point 2 of 2: a “biblical pattern”

    The whole point of biblical counter-examples to “biblical patterns”, surely, is to show that said “patterns” are not quite so biblical after all.


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    GEFS!

    Point 3 of 2

    Ha ha, I am SOOOO funny. Unfortunately I couldn’t think of a third point.


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    Luke 2
    36 There was also a prophet, Anna, the daughter of Penuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was very old; she had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage, 37 and then was a widow until she was eighty-four.[e] She never left the temple but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying. 38 Coming up to them at that very moment, she gave thanks to God and spoke about the child to all who were looking forward to the redemption of Jerusalem.
    _____________
    When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!”

    — Luke 1:41–45

    15th century depiction of the Nativity of St. John the Baptist, with Elizabeth on the left
    Matthew Henry comments, “Mary knew that Elizabeth was with child, but it does not appear that Elizabeth had been told anything of her relative Mary’s being designed for the mother of the Messiah; and therefore what knowledge she appears to have had of it must have come by a revelation, which would be a great encouragement to Mary.”[2] After Mary heard Elizabeth’s blessing, she spoke the words now known as the Magnificat (Luke 1:46–55).

    Mary stayed with Elizabeth for about three months and then returned home.
    When it was time for Elizabeth to have her baby, she gave birth to a son. Her neighbors and relatives heard that the Lord had shown her great mercy, and they shared her joy.
    On the eighth day they came to circumcise the child, and they were going to name him after his father Zechariah, but his mother spoke up and said, “No! He is to be called John.”
    They said to her, “There is no one among your relatives who has that name.”
    Then they made signs to his father, to find out what he would like to name the child. He asked for a writing tablet, and to everyone’s astonishment he wrote, “His name is John.” Immediately his mouth was opened and his tongue set free, and he began to speak, praising God.
    ___________

    Where would the world be without great and Godly women? – spiritually impoverished.


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    And to refresh our memories, here is part of an account of the ETS meeting in November 2016 that debunked Messrs Grudem and Ware’s (heretical) views on the Trinity and its relation to complementarianism.

    “ A meeting of the Evangelical Theological Society in mid-November took the Trinity as its theme, and saw Grudem and Ware square off against two orthodox theologians, Kevin Giles and Millard Erickson. Giles – a renowned expositor of the doctrine of the Trinity and a thoroughgoing expert in the field – laid into Grudem and Ware in a style that was polite but devastating. His lecture, with a fascinating postscript, was posted on the Patheos website by Scot McKnight.
    He acknowledges that “very large numbers of evangelicals” now believe the Grudem/Ware version of the Trinity. However, he says, it “contradicts what the Nicene creed, the Reformation and post-Reformation Protestant confessions and the ETS doctrinal statement teach”. Furthermore, he says, “I want to state clearly and unambiguously that I think the doctrine of the Trinity has absolutely nothing to say about the relationship of the sexes.” And, he adds: “My consistent argument for nearly twenty years has been that that if we evangelicals want to get right our doctrine of the Trinity, the primary and foundational doctrine of the Christian faith, we must sharply and completely separate out doctrine of the Trinity and our doctrine of the sexes. They are in no way connected and when they are connected both doctrines are corrupted.”
    (https://www.christiantoday.com/article/wayne-grudem-has-changed-his-mind-on-the-trinity-just-not-enough-say-critics/102617.htm)


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    Lowlandseer,

    It’s estimated 100,000,000 Bibles are printed each year (BibleSales statistics 2023), and the ESV accounts for 9%. In 2022 it ranked 5th in the most popular Bible listings (according to Thom Rainer).
    According to Amazon Mr Grudem’s Systematic Theology ranks as follows
    784,869 in Books (See Top 100 in Books)
    1,380 in Christian Ministry
    3,293 in Protestant Christianity


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    What gender is my spirit (or soul, if you prefer)? When I die and leave this body on the earth and my spirit (hopefully) ascends to heaven, what gender will I be in heaven? If I pray from my spirit (1 Cor 14), which is neither male nor female, who is some man to stop me and say I can’t pray in public? If Paul says to “regard no one according to the flesh,” (2 Cor 5:16) then why do these men continue to evaluate humans based on appearances and have 2 sets of standards?

    It says in James 2:1-4 not to play favorites based on outward appearances; James calls those who do play favorites “…judges with evil thoughts.” It was in reference to socio-economics, but can easily be applied to gender.

    I will pray whenever and wherever I choose. Wayne Grudem, come stop me.


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    Oh, and I also would like to apply to be a daughter of Stan 😉


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    “Treating her like a servant, making all the big decisions, acting like the “master of the castle”, being the one to define men’s and women’s roles” From the “Power and Control” wheel.

    Seems to me that arriving at “respected” (having self-respect) will never be truly achieved standing on someone else’s back. Although, some may think it’s a useful image management tool. Reminds me of Proverbs 26:26-28 Their malice may be concealed by deception…whoever digs a pit will fall into it.;….a lying tongue hates those it hurts..”

    One time, I saw a secular leader, in the midst of an obvious fiasco, find a platform to stand in the crowd and…..apologize for the mess. Of course, it was pretty glaringly obvious.


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    Nick Bulbeck: Some years ago I first came across the claim that [don’t shoot the messenger, BTW] “A woman wants to be loved, whereas a man wants to be respected”. The context is interesting, though. It was a small group setting (about a dozen of us, pretty much half-and-half men and women) led by a married couple. At a point near the end of our time there, the wife of the couple leading made the observation. When she did so, all of the men there – me included – seized on the statement like it was a long-lost brother. It was only later, looking back, that I registered that all of the women sat back and regarded it like the embarrassing cousin they were obliged to entertain every other Tuesday.

    Nick Bulbeck,

    I think the source of the claim you quoted is Emerson Eggerichs, from his book Love & Respect: The Love She Most Desires; The Respect He Desperately Needs.

    No offence to anyone intended….ignore the positive reviews you read about Emerson Eggerichs’ book Love & Respect. Too many people, especially women, get sucked in by the bad teaching in his book….and if the woman is a Christian in an abusive marriage, she usually ends up experiencing more and more abuse (by her spouse, the church, and their allies).


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    Nick Bulbeck: Failing to spot that the lassies didn’t want to be babies either was, I admit, somewhat selfish of the laddies.

    I can’t speak for your group, but it’s more gratifying for some men to think of women as somewhat older children. Babies need constant care, and ordering them around is not very fruitful.

    You can certainly tell a baby, “You’re not going anywhere dressed like that,” but the baby will at most wonder what you’re talking about.


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    researcher,

    In addition to the abuse, readers, some searching for the right response in a complex situation, will have their time and money wasted reading the book. But the time and money can be redeemed by giving public reviews of (not for) the book going forward.

    Thanks!


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    Ariel:
    I will pray whenever and wherever I choose. Wayne Grudem, come stop me.

    Brava !!!


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    seneca: Where would the world be without great and Godly women?

    Note that the examples of “Great and Godly women” are all from the Bible – a book that reached its final form some 1900 years ago and has increased in Mythic status since. including the G&GW becoming Larger than larger than Life – especially Mary of Nazareth. (Sounds Romish, doesn’t it?)

    All G&GW from the past that have achieved Mythic status.
    Not the RL women you meet on the street or at home or in the pages of these blogs.

    Don’t remember the details (this was several years ago), but one of my writing partners (the self-educated son of a steelworker) told me about a Goddess cult somewhere in history that was totally Male Supremacist. Their Goddess was such an idealized superhuman archetype of Womanhood that in comparison RL women were rancid piles of skubalon and were treated that way. (Like a Cosmic version of “Perfect P*rn Star Syndrome.)


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    The clearest statement by Albert Mohler that I can quickly find about leaving a local church is his 2009 article for Ligonier’s Tabletalk magazine, here:

    https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/should-i-stay-or-should-i-go

    There’s nothing in that article about needing permission, but he does claim that many common reasons for changing churches are invalid.

    I also looked for a statement from Mark Dever of 9Marks, who I would have expected to take a harder line on the issue than Mohler since that’s his brand, but I found only this rather mild set of guidelines:

    https://www.9marks.org/article/if-youre-thinking-about-leaving-a-church/

    There might be more restrictive statements by these men somewhere, but it was interesting to see what they’ve written on the topic that shows up first in a Google search.


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    David MacKenzie: There might be more restrictive statements by these men somewhere, but it was interesting to see what they’ve written on the topic that shows up first in a Google search.

    Ever heard of Reputation Enhancement Specialists?
    You can pay a Consultant to rig your online trail to game the Search Engine Algorithms to put YOUR puff/propaganda hits right up front and bury anyone/anything you don’t like 500 pages back in the hit stream. Wondering Eagle has been having problems with this; a lot of the MegaGigaMinistries have not only the best shysters money can buy, but the best Reputation Enhancement Consultants money can buy.

    So Google searches are about as trustworthy as North Korean Official Media.